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COMMISSIONER'S COURT
May 26,1998
9:00 a.m.
COUnty COUrtrOOm
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas 78028
PRESENT: ROBERT A. DENSON, County Judge
H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. l
T. H. "BUTCH" LACKEY, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4
FYed~ Day of -~rtA.D.1 ~g 11ME~~ F~
BIWE G. MEEKER
Clerk County Court, Kerr County, Texas
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On Tuesday, May 26, 1998, at 9:00 a.m., the Commissioners' Court was Geld
in the Commissioners' Coartroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and
the following proceedings were had in open court:
PROCEEDINGS
1
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. This is special Commissioners'
Court Agenda for Tuesday, May 26th. It's 9 o'clock, and as customary, we'll have a
prayer, and Commissioner Letz is in charge of prayer this morning. And following
that, we'll have a pledge of allegiance.
(Prayer and pledge of allegiance.)
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. Before we get into our
approval agenda, is there anybody else that filled out a form that wishes to speak?
(Judge Denson entered the courtroom.)
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Hey, look who's here.
JUDGE DENSON: Good morning.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't see a form anywhere around.
Is there one on the table there that they haven't seen?
MS. NEMEC: No, those are the juvenile docket.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. I thought there was somebody
who wishes to speak before we start our meeting.
JUDGE DENSON: Have you started yet?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We have started and now that you're
here, I think you should jump right in there.
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JUDGE DENSON: I'm supposed to be present and represent the
County at that trial, that Hernandez deal And late Friday our attorney told me that
jury selection will be at 3:00 this afternoon, and now I've gotten word that it's at
2:00, so I don't need to go until later today.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Go, Bob.
JUDGE DENSON: Where are you?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just f-xing to pay the bills and all that.
JUDGE DENSON: All right. Gentlemen, have you looked at the bills,
have any questions?
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: Motion to pay the bi1Ls.
JUDGE DENSON: I have a motion to pay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second.
JUDGE DENSON: We've got a second to pay. Questions, comments?
All in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. Budget amendments. Let's see.
MR TOMLINSON: There should be five in your packet. I handed
out two earlier this morning.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. First, professional services.
MR TOMLINSON: The Commissioners' Court - and it's - I have a
bill for - I have three bills totaling S2,406.58 from Tom Pollard, our civil attorney,
and I have one bill for 5199.84 from Allison Bass Associates.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, do these bills relate to the general
2
I work he does for the Court?
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MR TOMLINSON: Yes. The -
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The Allison -
MR TOMLINSON: Allison Bass is the - well, it's Soria vs. County.
It was a County Clerk employee that's apparently still in the process.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No other place we can think of for funds
MR TOMLINSON: These are - no. These are - if you remember
from the last court meting, we don't - we were taking those ont of professional fees,
and there are no funds left in that line item, and we didn't want to take it from
contingency because we might need it. And so this is the only place Ican -this is
the only thing I know to do. In fact, we did this last meeting. We declared an
emergency for it to pay attorney's fees.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought we did it the last time for things
related to the jail.
MR TOMLINSON: Well, we did that too, but -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We did, too.
MR TOMLINSON: They all come from the same - all the bills to be
paid from the same line item.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, I see what you're saying.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. I need a motion.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I so move we pay the bills, distasteful
~ as it is.
3
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second.
JUDGE DENSON: Questions? Comments? All in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
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JUDGE DENSON: Two?
MR TOMLINSON: Number 2 is for the County Auditor's office.
I'm asking for a transfer of $16 for miscellaneous postage.
JUDGE DENSON: So moved.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Third.
JUDGE DENSON: If it had been anyone else, ya'all would have
questioned him, why can't he budget properly.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why can't you budget properly? I so
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JUDGE DENSON: Because it's $16, ya'all are ready to just
summarily take care of this. Okay, we've got a motion and a second. Further
questions? A11 in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Number 3. Okay, Number 3 is for the County
Treasurer, transfer $122.50 from employee training.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can't question that one either,
because she's in here.
MS. NEMEC: I have an investment seminar coming up next week. I
usually don't go to any treasurer's conferences in April unless I have to, and this
year was one of the years that I had to go. I normally go every other year, so I only
budget a small amount in there, but this year I had to go `cause I didn't go last year,
so now I'm running short in my investment seminars, and those I Gave to go to.
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: So move.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second.
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JUDGE DENSON: I've got a motion and a second, Lackey and
Baldwin. Further questions? All in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Four.
MR TOMLINSON: Four is for an autopsy. I Gave a bill for $900
with $552 in that line item, so I'm requesting that we take $348 from contingency,
transfer into autopsy and inquest.
LETZ: So move.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second.
JUDGE DENSON: Motion and second. Questions or comments? All
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Five?
MR TOMLINSON: Five is for the same -same problem. We have
another bill that came in after we had already done this amendment, and so Number
5 is for an additional autopsy.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So move.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second.
JUDGE DENSON: Morton and second. Further questions?
Comments? All in favor?
5
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
MR TOMLINSON: Okay, Number 6.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
MR TOMLINSON: I have a late bill to go with this that I need a
hand check for. It's a bill from Cindy Snider for a court transcript, and it's State vs.
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Gabriel Charon. And I'm -there's -both district courts are totally out of money
for -except for minor amounts for office supplies and salaries and those kinds of
things. Their -all their trial expenses are completely depleted, so I don't know any
other thing to do except to declare emergency and make this payment.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Any of the district people in here?
We can jump on them.
JUDGE DENSON: No, there's not. Speak up.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Seems like they could learn how to
budget a little bit better than this. I make a motion we pay it.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second.
JUDGE DENSON: Questions? Comments? All in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Number 7.
MR TOMLINSON: Okay, Number 7 is also for the 198th and 216th
District Court. I have attorneys' bills for the 216th Court for $2,931.50 and for
court-appointed attorneys for the 198th Court for $10,165.00, so we need to declare
emergency for the one for $2,931.50 and one for $8,839.20.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So move.
MR TOMLINSON: I do need - no, never mind.
JUDGE DENSON: I've got a motion.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER; Second.
JUDGE DENSON: Any further gnestioas or comments? All in
6
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
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designed to track defendants that are -that come out of the court system. I mean,
actually are already gone, adjudicated. And it's a way to keep up with them and
make sure that - that, you know, that they keep up with the papers.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I visited with him the other day about
that system, and be walked me through. It looks like a pretty good deal. I think it's
a way to keep - to make sure that payment is made.
MR TOMLINSON: Right. That's the whole idea.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: For fines and court costs and things
like that, you know, that have kind of been not taken care of in a timely fashion. I
think this will insure that to happen, more so than before.
JUDGE DENSON: Whose fault is that?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I can't imagine. I'm sure it was ours.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
MR TOMLINSON: I do need a hand check for that.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. I've got a -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How much was it? I didn't get the
total. $1,500 or -
MR TOMLINSON: Yes, it's $1,508.48.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You want me to make the motion? T9
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there anything in it for me?
JUDGE DENSON: Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I so move.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. Second?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, I'll second.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. All in favor?
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(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
MR TOMLINSON: I have one more, aed that's from Michael
Walker. The reason I brought this in -and we've talked to Commissioner Letz
about this, and actually the bill is for $4,663, and it's - it is 5161 more than the
approved amount, the $16,000 that was approved.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's it for?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We approved $15,000 for his - kind of a
flat fee to go up to that amount to get all these drawings done, and then the Court
approved another $1,000 for that 3-D computer stuff, which gave him a total of 16.
He's over that, he's at 16, 4 -
MR TOMLINSON: 516,161.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 5161 over.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Over what we approved?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, let's hold that till he gets through
I with that.
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MR TOMLINSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe that's my preference, anyway, to
find out why we're over.
JUDGE DENSON: Anything further?
MR TOMLINSON: No, that's all I have.
JUDGE DENSON: Monthly reports. Have you had an opportunity to
look - review those, and if so, do you have a motion?
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: I make a motion.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll second the motion. And also note
that there are two monthly reports from the Sheriff's Office that I've never seen
before. Quite interesting information.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
MS. NEMEC: Judge, I also turned in the overtime monthty report of
the overtime hours that ya'all requested
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Have you {coked at that?
JUDGE DENSON: No, I haven't.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is not something that we're
going to approve?
MS. NEMEC: No, just accept.
JUDGE DENSON: We just -the report, itself, we accept it and
approve it. We do not -we're not paying off of these reports.
MS. NEMEC: And I think some of these are expected to be paid on
June the 15th, and I've told the department heads and elected officials that they need
to get in and make a request, a budget amendment, if they don't have any funds in
that line item for June the Sth.
JUDGE DENSON: Let me ask Ms. Nemec. Now, back two or three
months ago, we paid overtime -the Court approved payment of overtime that it
approved over a period of time.
MS. NEMEC: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE DENSON: My question is, this report which is dated through
May 9 covers what period of time?
MS. NEMEC: May 5th through May 9th, right around that time,
because we paid through - I mean, I'm sorry, February.
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JUDGE DENSON: February the 5th?
MS. NEMEC: Right, because we paid through February 5th, I think
JUDGE DENSON: So about three months?
MS. NEMEC: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE DENSON: Approximately.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: N
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Didn't we allow -this is just a balance;
we don't have to necessarily pay this. I can't -
MS. NEMEC: What the Court order read was that they have three
months from the time that they earn it, and then at the end of the three-month
period, if they have not taken that time off, then they turn it in for payment.
LETZ: So this is just a balance that's running
MS. NEMEC: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: All of it.
JUDGE DENSON: Well, let's -just for example, and it's only
overtime on this schedule, which, if you want to approximate the monthly accrual,
we're talking about 30, 35 hours a month. Do you Gave any kind of response to what
Jonathae asked? Do you anticipate this actually being paid or time being taken off?
MS. MEEKER: I can't speak to that myself. I think the employees
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because the last time I forgot to turn it in. It was the first time it was to be turned in,
and I just neglected to do it, so that is au accumulation of -
MS. NEMEC: Six months for her.
MS. MEEKER: -six months.
JUDGE DENSON: I see.
MS. MEEKER: And I apologize for that, but I just let it slip by.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's not bad for sin months.
JUDGE DENSON: No, that's only -the only ones that are alarming
would be the amounts being accrued by jail staff and the Sheriff s Department. The
County Attorney, we're going to have to look into that. Buster, you must not Gave
turned in your time.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I didn't want to embarrass anybody.
JUDGE DEN50N: All right.
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: We had a motion.
JUDGE DENSON: We've got a motion and second to accept and
approve the monthly reports. Aay further questions or comments on that? All in
favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. Now, as to the consideration agenda at the
top, 2.1, Consider and discuss abandonment of Walker-Benner Road. The
Honorable Craig Leslie put this on the agenda, and he's present. Mr. Leslie, why
don't yon come up to the lectern and see if anyone has any questions.
MR. LESLIE: Well, this is just ahalf - a stretch of road that runs
through two tracts of property, and they've served - as I understand, historically
they served somebody that lived in the back, the road did, and it crossed the Walker
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- that owns the property would really like to have it abandoned anyway, because
he's building -- he's selling the front tract and he's building a straight road to the
back tract that he's maintaining. So it's - we just think it would be in their best
interest and the County's best interest just to let it go.
JUDGE DENSON: It's not very often we have someone trying to take
roads off the maintenance list; it's usually the contrary. I'li certainly make a motion
to approve the abandonment of Walker-Benner Road and take that off the list of
County-maintained roads.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll second that.
JUDGE DENSON: Farther questions or comments? All in favor?
(The motion carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Thank you, Craig.
MR LESLIE: Thank you.
JUDGE DENSON: And thank you for your letter and explanation
understanding the subject.
MR LESLIE: Thank you.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. 2.2, Consider if a plat is required for Lot
20, Japonica Hills Subdivision, and if so, consider preliminary replat and set date for
public hearing for same. County Engineer, Don Vcelkel.
MR JOHNSTON: Morning.
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JUDGE DENSON: Good morning.

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MR. JOHNSTON: This involves Lot 20 in Japonica Hills Subdivision.
And, apparently, he wanted to sell it also by metes and bounds. We were asked, you
know, if they could do that. To me, it comes under the subdivision rules under
replat, and it probably should have been replatted when that first seven acres were
sold. I talked to County Attorney Tom Pollard and he - he also said that it should
have a public hearing and have a replat of that when the balance is sold. But it is, I
mean, a unique situation, so I brought it to the Court for their consideration -your
consideration.
JUDGE DENSON: Let's see. Lot 20, Japonica Hills, was at one time
MR dOHNSTON: Right.
JUDGE DENSON: And then at some time in the past, seven acres was
MR JOHNSTON: Right.
JUDGE DENSON: And what remained?
MR JOHNSTON: At that time it wasn't replatted.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I mean, I think it should go
through the replat process.
JUDGE DENSON: I see, Mr. Machann, your name on some of this
backup material. Actually, you received a copy of a letter, so I guess you're
representing Mr. Blommers?
MR MACHANN: Pardon?
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JUDGE DENSON: Are you representing Mr. Blommers, the property
MR MACHANN: No, I'm - I represent the prospective purchaser.
JUDGE DENSON: Oh, I see.
MR MACHANN: Of the tract that's been - the closing has been
delayed because of this.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. I was just going to ask if ya'ell had any
comment on it. I think the Court's opinion is going to be that a replat is required
and we do need to Gave a public hearing.
MIL MACI3ANN: Can I comment?
JUDGE DENSON: Yes, certainly.
MR MACHANN: I haven't reviewed your new ordinance. I know
you've passed one, and I'm not - it may very well require it. My only comment is if
you - the Government Code does contain a specific provision that allows the
County, in situations where you already have a previously platted lot that is now
being divided again, that they are not required to require a replat. There's a
specific statutory provision for that. I don't know if ya'all decided to adopt that or
not when you just went through your ordinance, because I haven't reviewed it. But
it's clear, looking at the statute, that when I combine the Elgin Bank case back in `95
and the statute, that the County certainly would not be required to require a full-
blown replat process or plat revision process in a situation like this where you're not
new roadways or new easements. So I would ask that, you know, maybe at
least - again, not debating what your ordinance says now, but there are situations -
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I've got another one. For example, the 65-acre platted lot with a dedicated
that we're going to divide into 28 ad 37 acres; put a line, divide 28 and 37,
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not making any other changes. And to do that under your rules, as I understand
them talking to Mr. Johnston, you've got to go through a baday process, roughly,
and public notices. And I question a little bit as to whether there might be room
here for minor plats or some other mechanism that the Commissioners' Court might
consider to avoid - I mean, it Beta to be a pretty lengthy process, and I'm not sure
whether the goal that you're reaching is - can be attained in another way, either by
minor replat approved by the County and not going through the - particularly when
you've got a statute that says you don't even have to do it in situations like that.
COMMISSIONER OEHI,ER: Is this served by a public water
system? I think it is, isn't it? Or does everybody have their own wells?
MR VOELKEL: Excuse me?
MR MACHANN: They want to know if it's served by a public water
system.
MR VOELKEL: It's a public or local water system, yeah. Central
system.
OEHLER: One of the things that's required of
that - and I'm not opposed to doing what you're asking. The water requirements
now is that they - that a letter be furnished by T.N.RC.C. guaranteeing that there's
enough water supply there to adequately serve additional lots. It's kind of a
proteMion against the buyers. Probably one lot isn't going to make any difference;
should be adequate water there, but probably -there's not? Oh, I thought
were answering my question.
16
MR MACHANN: So that's, what, a separate statute?
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, that's a part of our - well,
actually, it's part of our old requirements as well as our new requirements that you
get a letter stating -
MR. MACHANN: But you could do that without a b0.day process.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, the time period - I mean, I don't
have a problem with it if there's a way to speed up the process.
MR. MACHANN: Because the way it's being interpreted now is it's a
full-blown replat under the statute that requires posting in the paper three times,
requires certified letters to people; and if you're only dealing with a lot of the
present owners and dividing it, I - you know, it seems like to me that you might
want to - I know you just went through this, so I hesitate to even bring the issue up.
But it does seem like, to me, that there are a tot of instances in the county with large
acreage tracts, particularly where you could accomplish your same purposes
without putting a b0. or 70.day timeframe and other requirements that the statute
says you don't have to do, It's up to you, obviously; you've got the authority, I think,
to do it. Probably.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I would say at bare minimum, you
need to file an amended plat so that there is proper record in the Clerk's Office of,
know, the configuration of the subdivision.
JUDGE DENSON: Handled - and I agree with what you're saying, I
and what Dwaine says, that a minor replat would be a much better way of
this, where it's just gone through the Commissioners' approval and the
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Engineer's Office, and then filed of record like you say, the plat. Cut out all this
middle stuff.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The problem I see with that is that if we
go into a platted subdivision aad to not go through the public notice, the other
owners in that subdivision are affected by this. As an example, we required Mike
Lindley to do the same thing at Whiskey Ridge, whatever it's called, where there is a
subdivision which has very strict rules and everything else. And without the public
notice portion -
MR. MACHANN: What if you already have restrictions, which is the
case both in Japonica Hills and the other one you're talking about, that say expressly
you can divide these tracts as long as they're not less than five acres? And they're
already restriMed where they've already bought into this scheme of developments.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I'm just going back to the rules. We
discussed whether we should put some sort of standards on the homeowners'
association, and we opted out of doing that because we felt that would be an undue
burden and be too restrictive to try to, you know, dictate - you know, cover both
ways. I mean, I guess you could have some sort of language that, you know, if you
Gave a certain type of homeowners' association, then you don't have to do it, but it
gets very confusing. And I think that you do have to protect the other owners of the
subdivision and so they - you know, if they don't have a good association, that they
are put on notice.
JUDGE DENSON: Well, and I know you understand what he's
is they have already approved -those other homeowners, property owners,
they bought the property, they acquiesced or consented to any future division
lots is accordance with the restrictions.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, the one thing that other
require - I believe it's 200 feet off the highway. This one, the
MR MACHANN: You've got those, you've got your flag lot issues so
is, again, a 65-acre tract where you've got restrictions that say the plat - the lots can
never be -ess than 25 acres. And so if you're dividing one and you've got 30 and 35,
I question a little bit about why you should have a rule that you've got to go through
this GO- or 90-day process if somebody wants to sell a piece of property, to get it sold.
JUDGE DENSON: Yeah.
MR MACHANN: And, again, I'm not trying to say that maybe
those divisions, have accurate map records.
JUDGE DENSON: Well, it's before us. Let's look at it this way.
today. Why caa't we grant a variance and let this be handled as a minor replat
today? And that gives him the ability to go forward without going through --
jumpieg through all those hoops. And it wil- give Franklin the authority to look at
the plat and make sure that it's filed properly.
OEHLER: I don't have a problem. I think there
needs to be one thing added to it, just to safeguard the seller as well as the buyer,
and that would be the letter from T.N.RC.C. stating that there is adequate water
supply to supply water to those lots.
JUDGE DENSON: I agree.
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LETZ: I can - what we're doing here is just
waiving the notice requirements, correct? I mean, really.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Pretty much so.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, the variance - I mean, they're still
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, sort of, but there's more to it, I
JUDGE DENSON: We're not -
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're waiving a public hearing also,
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Notice and the public hearing.
JUDGE DENSON: You're not going to have to come back. You can
minor replat signed off without the 3(Way delay. That way U.G.R.A. and everyone
can review it, assign lot numbers and all that to it; go through everybody, you know,
have acheck-off on it. But just to speed it up, because it won't have to go through
the public hearing part; that's basically what you're doing if they do an amended
plat or call it a replat, you know, with a variance, in the same amount of time.
Otherwise, they won't have the lot -the address. All that information wouldn't be
picked up, right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. We need to go through the whole
process of a replat. We're just trying to speed it up from the standpoint of the
21
notice.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. That's what I was just
suggesting, just waive the public hearing part and that would go ahead and speed it
up, but it would still be signed off by all the other -
JUDGE DENSON: Do you agree?
MR MACHANN: I understand what he's saying.
MR JOHNSTON: I think it would be called a replat.
JUDGE DENSON: Mr. Vcelkel?
MR VOELKEL: I'm Delly Vcelkel. I'd -ike to ask a question about
this replat - or amended plat. What if there are other tracts within that subdivision
similar to Tract 20 where they cut out seven acres previously, or any amount? Is
this amended plat going to reflect that, or is it going to ignore it? There'd be nothing
of record for the -
JUDGE DENSON: That's not before the Court, and how would we
I even know?
MR VOELKEL: Right. So the amended plat would just show the
change in Tract 20?
JUDGE DENSON: Yea, sir.
MR VOELKEL: All right, thank you.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Does that make sense to you, Mr.
Voelkel?
MR VOELKEL: The whole thing doesn't make sense to me. Thank
22
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JUDGE DENSON: Well, that makes me ask another question. What
doesn't make sense, specifically?
MR VOELKEL: The requiring of a replat for this tract.
JUDGE DENSON: I see.
MR VOELKEL: Are you familiar with the Elgin Bank case?
JUDGE DENSON: Yes, sir.
MR VOELKEL: The way I interpret it - well, let me see.
JUDGE DENSON: Our rules, I think, have been amended to address
Elgin Baak. I'm not sure whether the Legislature has acted on that last term or
whether they're going to act on it this term.
MR VOELKEL: Yes. It was based on a court case, right?
JUDGE DENSON: Yes, sir.
MR VOELKEL: But the thing that draws myattention -and, quote,
The bottom line of the Elgin Bank case is that divisions of land involving nothing
more than the drawing of a line between two tracts need not undergo subdivision
review, unquote. And this is atypical case.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this is already in a subdivision.
MR VOELKEL: Excuse me?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is already in a subdivision. If it
Wflsn't In a 9ubdIV131on -
MR VOELKEL: But it doesn't address platted lots versus acreage; it
just says any tract. Any tract that you divide into two or more parts, without having
put other improvements in. Again, my lawyer -this isn't just my interpretation.
That's what bothers me about it.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: My concern would be that if you don't do
MR VOELKEL: True.
JUDGE DENSON: But it's just going to get worse and worse if we
don't start trying to -you know, if someone was to go to the County Clerk's office
and pull this plat, you're going to show from a water system standpoint; from, you
know, lots of different areas. Yon will have no idea how many lots are out there.
MR VOELKEL: So?
LETZ: Well, when you're on a public water
system, there's a lot of T.N.RC.C. rules and other rules that you have to look at that
are hinged on the number of lots. I think there's more -the max requirements.
MR VOELKEL: How do you circumvent the fact that this fact", if
it is, in fact, a fact - that you can do it? I mean, it's the law. To me, what this is
saying is the law says that this is the way it's supposed to be done. Whether it needs
more platting or whatever isn't addressed. It's just addressed that if all you're
doing is drawing a tine between two parts of one land, you don't have to plat it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now, like I say, I mean, it doesn't say
platted versus unplatted, but -
MR VOELKEL: Doesn't say what?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Platted - when you draw the line,
whether it's platted or not.
MR VOELKEL: So then it doesn'L~
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think this case was outside - I mesa,
when they did it, it was outside of the platted subdivision.
24

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MR VOELKEL: If they didn't address it, it's not concerned about it.
MR JOHNSTON: I think the case was about some platted laud out in
the county and whether or not it had to be platted if it faced a public road, and that's
the way the case ended up; it did not have to be platted. But I think that once it is
platted, then it falls under a completely new area under the replat law. And I think
it has to be - I don't think Elgin Bank applies to platted subdivisions.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I tend to agree with that, but, you know, I
don't know. Probably another court case would solve this.
MR VOELKEL: That's what's good about tt. I disagree with that,
but thank you.
MR JOHNSTON: I don't think -
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't see anything wrong with filing
an amended plat. I think that that needs to be - at the very minimum, to be done
just to reflect what actually - what lots are actually in the subdivision, whether
they've been increased in lot size or whether they have been decreased in acreage. I
think that's the very least that should be done.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with what your motion is. My
question is with the term "amended," 'cause we don't have -that's not de£med. We
don't know what an amended plat - I mean, like our subdivision rules. We don't say
what anamended - I mean, it doesn't exist. So it's kind of a strange animal I mean,
when you call it a term that is not in our rules.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. Do you withdraw your motion?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No.
JUDGE DENSON: You don't?
25
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No. I think whatever terminology you
want to put on it is fine. But, I mean, all I'm trying to get to is that a revision of the
plat be filed of record that reflects what is actually on the land out there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And I think whether it's the wrong
terminology, I think to amend the plat to that status would suffice.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How'd we do there?
JUDGE DENSON: That's what I like. You think you have that,
Tammy?
MS. MARQUARDT: The first time, yes.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it hasn't changed.
JUDGE DENSON: I'll be glad to work with you oe that.
MS. MARQUARDT: Thank you.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. We've got a motion and a second on this.
Further questions or comments? All in favor?
(The motion was carried, with Commissioners Baldwin, Lackey, and
Oehler, and Judge Denson for, Commissioner Letz against.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll go against on the terminology; I
26
oppose on terminology.
JUDGE DENSON: Oppose on terminology.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with the concept.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This time next year you won't even
recognize the Elgin Bank case, I guarantee you.
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JUDGE DENSON: Okay. Dwaine, I think we've accommodated you
and your client where you don't have to meet those notice requirements and have
public bearings and all that business, okay? All right, next item on the agenda, 2.3.
Consider and discuss tong-distance telephone service.
MR TOMLINSON: Okay. Currently, I think everybody in the
County uses -we're with MCL We got started with them about five or six years
ago, when MCI had an interlocal agreement with the State of Texas and they
allowed counties to piggyback on those rates for the state. That contract is no longer
in existence. We're still getting the same rate from MCI, and it's - it probably
averages 14 to 15 cents is about what it is. My reasoning for bringing this up is that
- for one thing, is that my office is just tired of dealing with MCI, and we -their
billing system leaves a lot to be desired. We spend -Mindy spends hours trying to
get the bills together to go out to the departments. And Tom Locke is with us today.
He's a representative from LSD (ssc).
MR LOCKS: LDS.
MR TOMLINSON: I'm sorry, I had a Tong weekend. And he -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You been out at the folk festival,
~ Tommy?
MR TOMLINSON: And he's a local guy and, you know, I'd like to
do business with a local representative if we can. And 6e's all -his company offers a
better rate than what we have. They offer a billing service that I think we can live
with. In fact, the City of Kerrville uses this service, and I've talked with the
department at the City, and they -they give the company high
recommendations as far as their billing. And also, I think it's time that we have
27
some -maybe some stronger controls on our long-distance use. In other words,
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assigning some individual long-distaace authorization codes for each individual.
And I think we can - I think it would be easier to control the uses of long-distance
service. And I think that - what I understand from Tom is that, you know, the
company can handle that. 1)o you want to address the Court in any way, Tom?
MR LOCKS: To answer questions or-
MR TOMLINSON: Yeah, to answer questions.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, my only comment is I think it's a
good idea to look at the market and see what the best deal is. My question is, though,
that we give everyone - other companies ample time to - I know we don't really
want to bend this, per se, but at the same time -
MR TOMLINSON: Well, I've been in contact with - or tried to be in
contact with two major servicers in the market, and I've done this over a period of
five or six months, and I have aot yet received a phone call from any of them. And I
made several attempts to do that. When - when we try to call MCI with a problem
with the billing, it's like calling the IRS; you just can't get there from here.
LETZ: Well, I agree MCI has a terrible billing
28
system; from the personal times I've used it, they're the least user-friendly of any of
them. I just want to make sure that - you know, that we're giving other companies
in the marketplace an opportunity, you know, to give us their best shot. I just think
it's - you know, I hate to just have something posted and three days Later make a
decision on it. You know, if you're comfortable that you've gone out to other
companies in the market and you know this is the best there is, you know, we'll take
your recommendation. I want to make sure that that's the case. And it comes back
under the -there were quite a few comments I received about a prior vote when we
went with Internet service, that we didn't give the other companies an opportunity;
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we just came in here one day and decided we're going to go with Company "X".
And, you know, that was brought to my attention. It was kind of a flag in my mind.
Whenever we do these things, whether it's any kind of company that we can do
business with, I think it's real important that we make sure we give other companies
opportunities to put in proposals. So it's kind of - if you've done that, I don't have a
problem with it. I want to make sure that we are doing it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy, you quoted MCI prices as
14 or 15 cents?
MR TOMLINSON: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What would LDS -are they right
around there?
MR. LOCKS: It's hard to stand before you, because in the
telecommunication industry there's no integrity. They do not promise you - I won't
call you at sappertime and tell you we have a better rate. The rate that I quoted was
11.9 cents per minute in the state of Texas and in the LATA, assuming you have a
system that can bypass the Southwestern Bell LATA system, and I think you do. It
starts at 6-second billing from the very beginning, and what 6-second billing means
in a long-distance business is a savings of 25 to 30 percent over 4-minute billing.
Also, there are tricks in the industry which, believe it or not, when you dial an area
code and the first three digits, some companies start billing, and that's on every long-
distance call. We don't do that; you only pay when the phone is picked up on the
other end, so it's answered supervision. Outside of the state of Texas, it's 10.4 cents
a minute. That's li-second billing as well. I don't know if you utilize 800 or SSS
numbers, but we charge 11.9 cents a minute on our 888 numbers, half minute,
minute, 6-second billing. There are no extra charges affiliated with our system. For
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example, if you utilize the PAC code, which is a personal identification access
number, there's no extra billing charge for that. We can either send you abill -and
by the way, on our bill, if you don't like it, you can tailor-make it yourself; you can
tell us what changes you want. There's no charge for changing. We also have
access where you can pull it up on a computer. If you want to use computer billing,
we can do that too. There's no extra charge for that. Also, there is a charge by
Kerrville Telephone Company, S10 a -ine, for changing. Now, you're going to have
to pay that, `cause that's with Kerrville Telephone Company, but we will pay it. If
you will submit a copy of that to us, we will sabtract that from your bill or we will
send you a check There's no charge for that. We can -the reason we do that is
because in the Southwestern Bell area, they charge $5 for the first line, $3 for each
additional line. With Kerrville Telephone Company, it doesn't matter; it's S10 a
line. And JTI is S10 a line, so those type things do occur. I don't know what else to
tell you, other than the fact that there is a lot of competition in the industry. They'll
tell you they'll charge you 10 cents aminute - if you want, I'll sell you a program, 9
cents a minute, flat 4minute billing. That's -that equates to about 14 cents a
minute, G-second billiug. So, you know, a lot of people don't know these differences
and they hear the 9 cents versus 11 cents, and -and I'd much rather sell a 9-cent or
10-cent - I have never sold one. I'd much rather sell it, `cause I make more
commission. The other thing that I do, and most companies don't do it, is when I
started seven years ago with LDS, it was 21 cents a minute generally in the industry.
You can see 11.9 is a lot less. Whenever we have a rate reduction, I automatically
apply it to my customer base. The reason I do that is because I don't like to lose
And I think by the year 2000 you're going to see 5 and 6 cents a minute
30
long-distance calls; I think it's going to change that much. Most of us can't
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remember back in the year 1982, deregulation, it was 60 cents a minute. Do you
remember what it was? I don't, personally. I had to look it up, 60 cents a minute
versus 11.9. That's how the industry has changed over the years. Aud so -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, the code numbers - the way I
understand it now, I have a code number. When Imake along-distance call, I punch
in a 3-digit number, but that code simply is billed to Commissioners' Court; it's not
billed to Commissioner Precinct 1. Is that right, Tommy?
MR. TOMLINSON: You can punch in a code and it will work. In
other words, there - if you know to punch in a 3-digit code, you can use long-
distance service. It will not - so what we have is really not a very secure system.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it's not, and it doesn't break it
out. It doesn't break my long-distance calls out from Mr. Lackey's - which I
understand has never made a long-distance call from court, but anyway, that's
beside the point. But, I mean, we're not separated out. And under your system we'd
get a separate code and the Precinct 1 Commissioner would be broken out in the
bills; is that what ys'all are saying?
MR. LOCKS: Yes. I would work with Tommy. You can not only
departmentalize it, you can aLro individualize it. You can individualize it. In other
words, for example, let's say Commissioners' Court had a series of 300 numbers, 333
or 354 or whatever. And let's say Audit had 400 series and so on and so forth. Clerk
of Court, 500. Any 3-digit code wonld not work with us, only those that you identify.
you would never see the numbers on the bill; you'd only see the name. Ie other
yon would be personally assigned a number, and on the bill at the end it
show department first, and then it would show those within the department
31
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32
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I like that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do, too.
MR LOCKS: Pardon me?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We like that.
MR LOCKS: That's the way it should be. From what he is saying, if
I'm not mistaken, any three digits will work ThaYs won't work with us. We
identify it. You can only get -- in other words, I was in Midland the other day; I
flew up there and I used three digits to make along-distance call. Actually, it was a
non-cost call; I was checking who the long-distance carrier was because I had some
time. Any three digits would work there. That - I mean, that doesn't take much
effort to figure that one out.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's get -okay. Well, I really like
what I'm hearing, but I'd like to get back to Commissioner Letz's concern. I
remember when we did the Internet thing, I got bruised up a little bit because we
didn't take a look around locally, our local friends across the street here. Will we
have that problem or -
MR TOMLINSON: I don't know. As I said, I have -- this came up
when Tom came to me, and my staff and I have talked about this off and on for some
', time. And it's our - our purpose is not really for the money, I mean, as far as the
savings. We're looking fora billing service that will make our lives easier. And so
that, so far as the dollar concern, we're not - we weren't concerned about that as
much as we were the other.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Shame on you.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, there are other - I mean,
AT&T, for example, they can provide basically the breakout on name and all that? I
MR TOMLINSON: Oh, yeah, sure.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of these things a lot of companies
can offer, and I'm -you need to have one you're comfortable with. AT&T is pretty
much the most expensive; I'm not recommending AT&T, but -
~ MR TOMLINSON: Well, you had -- my experience in trying to
analyze long-distance service is that an ordinary person can't do it. You Gave to
know the -you have to be an expert in the field to be able to - to interpret what -
what each company does.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR TOMLINSON: And I'd like to be able to get my hands on a
warm body when I - when I have a problem.
MR LOCKS: I understand.
MR TOMLINSON: And that's why I like what I see with this
Company.
33
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think this Court would ever
make a decision based on whether it be a local company or not. I don't think -the
law doesn't allow us to do that.
MR TOMLINSON: No, I -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But the difference in the cost here
certainly is attractive to me. Definitely.
MR LOCKS: May I say, too, that you're not signing a contract with
us. Obviously, the only stipulation that our company really puts on the books is,
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look, we'll go ahead and pay the switching fee of $1Q and if - if someone comes in
with a better rate, naturally we'd like to be called to compete with it. I don't think
that's going to happen. I do know this; that I can name businesses right here within
a block of here that have gone on the system and that are quoted better prices and I
lose them, aad then six months later I go back and look at the bill and the change
never took place. And that's unfortunate. That's what I mean by no integrity. It's
not what I say; it's what is actually performed. Whatever you get, get it in writing,
because then you can hold them to it. But if you do get - if, 30 days or 60 days or 90
days from now, you get a better rate and you don't want to even do business with us,
that's fine. The only thing we won't do after 60 days, we won't pay you to go
somewhere else. I mean, in other words, we won't pick up the switching fee to put
you back with another company. They need to pay that, that's all I'm saying. But
there's not a contract here. We don't - we just perform. We don't require any type
of signed contract.
MS. NEMEC: May I say something?
NDGE DENSON: Yes.
MS. NEMEC: I think what Tommy is dealing with here is the same
34
thing that I deal with in investments. There's a lot of people out there who can offer
the same thing, but it's that personal working relationship that's important in a
situation like that, and I think that's what Tommy sees with this company.
Everybody can offer more or less the same thing, but if you don't have a good
personal working relationship where you can pick up the phone and call that one
person, that - I think that's what's important here, and I think that's what he's
saying.
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JUDGE DEN50N: Like Cecil Atkinson says on T.V., "When the
products are similar, service makes a difference."
MS. NEMEC: That's right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, but Ijust - we need to make real
sure we don't get in the habit in the County of doing business with people that we
know, and Ithink -you know, and people that come to us all the time. I mean, we
can get in big trouble with that by doing that, if nothing else. And this is one -you
know, I'm certainly no expert on bidding statutes, but this is one -- I would imagine
our long-distance bill is over $15,000 a year, you know. And I don't even know if we
have to have competitive bids on something like this. I'm curious. But, in other
words, in that area we need to be very conscious.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, are these - I'm sorry. Are
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these considered professional services?
JUDGE DENSON: No.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Like I say, I don't know what our long-
distance bill is, but with the number of phones we have, I bet it's high. That's - I'm
just talking. The red flags have come up in my mind, and I have no problem with,
you know, hiring this company, LDS. I just want to make sure that we're giving
everyone an opportunity, and I think the fact that -- I mean, Tommy's
recommendation on the service goes a long way. I mean, if you can't get someone to
help you, what's the point of going with the company? So money's not always the
main concern. If Tommy says that he's looked at everything, I'll 6e glad to make a
motion.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll second.
35
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JUDGE DENSON: All right, we're there. I have a motion and a
second just all of a sudden. Okay. All in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
MR LOCKS: Thanks.
JUDGE DENSON: 2.4, Consider and discuss maintenance contract on
ballot scanning machines. Ms. Meeker?
MS. MEEKER: Unfortunately, the maintenance contract copy did
36
not arrive. It's one of those "it's in the mail" situations. However, I have been on
the phone with them and I think Mr. Letz and Mr. Oehler are correct in their
comments at our last session about maintenance on-call as opposed to an agreement.
The contract would take $2,100 a year. It would mean $4,200 in the next budget,
opposed to $1,150 out of this budget fora maintenance call in September - August or
September, to get ready for the November election. And then if you - it won't be
here, but if you see fit to put it in the next budget fora P.M. -- if you feel like there's
a need, I think it would be better financially to go that way than to go with the
maintenance contract. As Mr. Oehler pointed out, in five years you may want to
have a whole new system going. So it's a point - you know, I would not presume to
make a recommendation, but it all boils down to $2,100 for five years or calling for a
P.M. every year or every other year as you see fit. We do need a call now, because
we had so much trouble at the last election. I don't have $1,150 in that line item.
I've got $670 in that line item, but could probably scrounge it from someplace else.
So if you want to wait to get a copy of the maintenance agreement, that's fine; it
might be in today's mail. But I think the main points are set out in Ms. Charleston's
letter as to what will be in the maintenance contract. As nearly as I can determine,
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they have not mentioned anything to me other than what was here that would make
a difference in your decision.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Billie, I'm looking at the May 8th letter,
the first letter we got from the company. If you pay the 52,100, you get one free call
a year?
MS. MEEKER: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You still pay for any additional calls
beyond that first one?
MS. MEEKER: This is true.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And on parts, are any parts covered under
that anneal maintenance?
MS. MEEKER: No.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you still pay for parts either way?
MS. MEEKER: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I don't see why you have a
maintenance - I don't see the need fora maintenance contract.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think you call them up prior to the
election, have them come check the machine out, pay them whatever they -
MS. MEEKER: Well, they did say that probably the most expensive
part -they have mentioned to me two or three times that the most expensive part in
the machine is $2,500. And probably that's not going to go until it's time to get rid
of the machine anyway.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Again, it doesn't - you'd still have to pay
for that part?
MS. MEEKER: That's right.

37
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OEHLER: So there's no advantage to the
maintenance contract.
MS. MEEKER: You would have already paid $2,100 for the --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: For the service.
MS. MEEKER: For the service.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But no parts.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can we -there's not an election between
now and November?
MS. MEEKER: November. And -
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can hold off -
MS. MEEKER: -and that is the only election.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can do nothing at this point and then
have them come out or schedule to have them come, you know, October 2nd and put
it in next year's budget.
MS. MEEKER: I'd rather - I'd rather get it done before then,
because October is crunch time and they said they cannot guarantee a call in
I October.
38
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Schedule them whenever you can get
them scheduled. We'll leave it up to your discretion.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can we schedule - I was thinking if we
could pay it in neat year's budget, it would be easier.
MS. MEEKER: It would help.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe we can do it in September and -
you know, I don't know what their -
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MS. MEEKER: Of course, you're always faced with the fact that if
we go through the November election and some other little glitch comes up, then
we're going to need another maintenance call before -
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to start putting money in the
budget annually for it, whether there's a maintenance contract or not. Do we know
what their billing - do they have 30-day billing or do we have to give them a check
at the time?
MS. MEEKER: No, I don't know about that. They just mentioned
billing on the - if we got the maintenance contract, they would not expect the first
payment until -- it would be effective September the 1st, but the first payment would
be due October 1st. But then next September 1st they would want another payment,
so that would be 54,200 on the maintenance contract out of this coming -- out of the
budget upcoming.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So if our machines aren't any better
than that, we'll get new machines.
MS. MEEKER: I just realized that what we need now is some minor
adjustments. I feel like it's more a tension problem, as opposed to parts. But I'm not
the expert.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does the County Auditor have any
JiJDGE DENSON: If he has, he's holding them back
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's the machine expert.
MS. MEEKER: I did not even discuss it with Tommy, I apologize.
MR TOMLINSON: I don't believe in maintenance contracts.
39
MS. MEEKER Yes. I don't, either.
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MR TOMEINSON: We haven't had a maintenance contract on the
typewriters for six years. I mean, I just - the only maintenance contract on any
equipment of any size is our mainframe computer, but that's a high-dollar item.
That's $120,000.
MS. MEEKER: I was horrified recently to learn that the County has
over there that's been there since 1982.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm horrified, too.
MS. MEEKER: I've been working on the budget; that's not in next
JUDGE DENSON: We need to - what I'm hearing is Ms. Meeker
people in to perform some maintenance and she doesn't have the money.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: She has half the money.
.JUDGE DENSON: She has half the money.
MS. MEEKER: I've got almost $700.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. She's going to need $500, though.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there any spots in your budget, Billie,
MS. MEEKER: I have -- I have worked and worked and worked on
40
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can do nothing at this point, and you

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JUDGE DENSON: We'll take up 2.5 now and then we'll take our
morning break. Consider and discuss purchase of postage machine, District Clerk.
bls. Decker, good morning to you.
MS. DECKER: Good morning. How are you?
JUDGE DENSON: Just fine.
MS. DECKER: First of all, I don't know how to spell Pitney Bowes,
a`DDGE DENSON: No, you don't.
~iS. DECKER: i put Pitney Bowles. It's Bowes, B-o-w-e-s. One day
I asked the maiiman, I said, ~Maiiman," -that's what I call the maiiman. I said,
"Who in the courthouse gets the most mail?" He said, "Oh, my god, Linda, you do
by far." I said, Okay, next question. Who sends the most mail out?" And he said,
"You do, by far.'° He said, "The lax office does seasonally, but other thaa that, oa
the average, you do." So, of course, I'm always trying to save some staff time,
because my staff is limited and I'm trying not to add any more staff. So I've got a
proposal, and I think you have it in front of you, from Pitney Bowes on two options;
one is a purchase and the other is a lease, And as you can see, the Total cost on the
purchase is $6,$68. Of course, I don't have that total in the - in that line item, in the
postage line item. I do have - I called l~iindy this morning -x4,443. The five-year
pay plea option, we can put down $1,374 out of that amount, and then four payments
thereafter of the same amount to pay in the first year with no interest. What that
means is that I could budget the remainder of that is next year, less the -both
District Courts are going to request ~I,tit10 is their budget io pitch in, because this
machine will departmentalize -the meter wiif departmentalize, so they can use -
they will be using that machine also. And anybody else that wanted to use it could,
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because the meter itself wlll charge out however it's keyed in to departmentalize. In
addition to that, the purchase price -- the meter rental is $72.25 per month, aed that
can be paid annually. Maintenance on it, there's no maintenance for the first year,
but if we decide to purchase a maintenance agreement, it's $57 a month. And then
on page 2 is a lease, 48 or 60 months. For 48 months it's $249 a month for the first
year with no maintenance, and then $306 for the remainder of the term. And then
60 months is $222, and the same provisions; it's $279 thereafter. I'm not totally in
favor of going with the lease. You know, I don't know what the life of these postage
machines is. I understand the County Clerk's Office has had one for -
to
it
12 years ago.
13
MS. MEEKER: I don't know how long it's been.
COMMLSSIONER OEHLER: Long time. Got a new one about three
MS. UECKER: Okay. So we can probably pay for one a lot easier
than we can lease one. So that's my proposal. And I just confirmed with Becky this
morning that the District Judges have agreed; they think it's a great idea too.
Cause we send out all the jury summonses; I've got somebody licking back there
constantly. I've hired a ticker.
14
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're not going there. Mrs. Uecker,
you said that -you mentioned that you had four thousand something?
MS. UECKER: $4,443.84.
BALDWIN: $4,443.84?
21
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MS. UECKER: As of today.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I couldn't come np with those
~ numbers; I tried last week, but I didn't quite get there. But that's left over in - in
~ your purchase line -what do they call it?
42
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MS. UECKER: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Capital outlay line item; is that
where that money is?
MS. UECKER: That's where that money is, in that line item right
now. The problem I may have, though, is, of course, I've got sixty-eight - no -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yoar bookkeeping system has not
been bought; is that correct?
MS. UECKER: No, not yet. I'm still working on that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's $3,000?
MS. UECKER: And based on -see, and that's another thing I wanted
to bring up. That was in capital outlay. I may not need that, because we've been
working with Tommy on anew program that Windows '95 has to try to get that
done instead of the bookkeeping system. Now, this has just come up since the last
budget year when we requested this, and there's a possibility, with the Court's
approval, of course, that we may want to do something there.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let me ask a question. Why is there a
43
rental fee on top of the purchase price?
MS. UECKER: That's for the meter; that's what - that was my
question, too. That's for the dang meter.
COMMISSIONER OEBZER: Yeah?
MR TOMLINSON: They won't sell them, either.
MS. UECKER: They don't sell meters, see. The meter registers the
postage and they bill you for that amount.

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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't the meter -isn't that - is it oweed
by the Post Office or by Pitney Bowes? I think you have to take it to the Post Office
to get -the Post Office reads those meters.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a little box, postage reads out. Is there
any savings in dollars or postage by using the meter?
MR. TOMLINSON: Should be.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It puts the exact amount on.
MS. DECKER: Yeah, it does.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Instead of two or three 32¢ stamps
when it might be 42¢ -instead of putting two full stamps on it, maybe it should be
two or three cents, or -
COMMISSIONERLETZ: It's not a discounted rate; it's more exacK.
MS. DECKER: It's not a discounted rate, but it will be a savings, in
my office particularly, because we have so much mail that's over and above the one
ounce. And it's hard to, you know, get enough stamps on it to get it just exactly
right, so, of course, you put the next highest amount.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Pm sold on the machine. I think you
need the machine up there, and at some point I'd like to see the County get one
central machine. But I - I am not following your payment program exactly. You
have $4,443.
44
MS. DECKER: Now, that's what I've got in my budget for the
postage that's remaining for between now and October.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, 5443.84?
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MS. UECKER: No, $4,443.84 is what I've got left in my postage line
item out of the $9,000 that was budgeted.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see what you're saying, okay.
MS. UECKER: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Aed then the capital outlay, you have
MS. UECKER: That's a possibility, yes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Left over, taking out the bookkeeping
system. If you bought the $3,000 bookkeeping system, you'd have 52,6001eft there.
Because of your wise buying with your chairs and -and your printer and all those
'I kinds of things, you saved all kinds of money through the year.
MS. UECKER: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, now, how do you want to pay for
it? I'm a big fan of the machine; I waet to buy the machine, but I want you to tell us
how we're going to buy it.
MS. UECKER: Well, I think the bookkeeping system that we're using
now -Tommy, do you have any problem with it as far as the reports are concerned?
MR. TOMLINSON: I think it will work.
MS. UECKER: Okay. We've been working with Tommy since the
up with a program on Windows '95 that I think is going to work out real well
I for us.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So the bookkeeping system, the
system is not coming out of here, then?
MS. UECKER: No.
45
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LETZ: That would be almost your entire capital
MS. UECKER: Maybe three.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You have enough to make three
payments within the year, and that way nest year's bndget will not be affected
hardly st ail. In fact, it could be less in capital outlay.
MS. UECKER: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this is kind of a next year - I mean,
an early Christmas present.
MS. UECKER: Well, no, I didn't think about that. I was just
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think you can do that; that way neat
COMMLSSIONER OEHLER: -than what it bas been this year.
And you can get a postage meter.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a good idea; I agree with
Buster Whenever we can - it's a lot cheaper to buy this machine than hire a ticker.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm sure not interested in a lease.
MS. UECKER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You want to do some volunteer -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do not go there, I'll tell you.
MS. UECKER: Well, i guess my question is -and I'll try to work it
out with the Auditor, what the best way would be. But are you saying, then, that
9 you are apt
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MS. UECKER: I agree with you. I -the lease, I put it in there
because that was one of the options he gave, but I'm -you know, I would be opposed
to that, based on the Court's decision.
OEHI,ER: I make a motion that we allow the
District Clerk to purchase a postage machine as submitted in this proposal, and that
payments be made -that three payments be made at the $1,374 level in the 1997-
1998 budget year, and funds to be transferred from her capital outlay line item
under that -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just one second, though. You have
three payments at $1,374, and then you have the $1,374 down payment, so that's
48
four $1,374'x.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. Well, that would be three.
MS. DECKER: What he's saying, I think, is the down payment and
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Down payment and two.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Down payment and two, three
payments, however you want to do it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sorry, I misunderstood. Second.
JUDGE DENSON: All in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: Okay, thank you. It's now 10:20. Let's take a
break until a quarter ti1111:00.
(Whereupon a short recess was taken.)
JUDGE DENSON: It's 20 minutes till 11:00 the 26`" day of May,'98,
and we're at 2.6. Consider and discuss billing for corpse transportation to and from
Travis County Medical Examiner's office for autopsies. J. P. Ragsdale put this on
the agenda. I'm not sore whether be pleas on coming or not. He has a pretty
lengthy letter setting out this situation.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, he does. And I did not read it
all and probably will not, but I can see how possibly - you know, one of his
recommendations here is to use a County employee and County vehicles to do all
transfers, and that person must be available 24 hours a day and that kind of thing. I
don't see anything like that happening, but I can see possibly the County going out
for bids on this kind of thing. If you -
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: I visited with him on it, end we was
wondering if that would be possible, just to go out for bids for it. There's only, I
think, four funeral homes and one company that does that here in town, transfers.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
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COMMISSIONER LACKEY: And just go oat for bids on those five
and go from there with it. But he got upset whenever Kerrville Funeral Home
charged him 5300 for transferring and everybody else charged him 5175 or $200. So
I'd like to make a motion just to go out for bids for it, for transfers.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll second the motion, I don't have a
problem with that.
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: We're spending lots of money on that.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. We've got a motion and a second to go out
for bids for transportation of -
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Corpses.
JUDGE DENSON: - corpses to Austin for autopsy parposes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does the Auditor handle that or -
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes.
JUDGE DENSON: Either he or - traditionally, either he or the
Commissioner of Precinct I did.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. Put in your motion that the
Auditor would be responsible.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. All in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can deal with these corpses, can't
JUDGE DENSON: 2.7, Consider and discuss water softener for law
facility. And I talked with Johnny Tisdale about this; he happened in

50
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one day last week. I don't know -again, I'm not sure whether he was going to be
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a report here, Judge. We're
going to pass on this. He thought it best to get three bids on the deal for us so we
could get a real clear picture of it, and he'd only gotten one. The other two had not
arrived yet, so 6e asked if we could just pass on that. And I'd like to commend him
for looking into this thing. He's done a good job in this area.
JUDGE DENSON: That's what he was telling me, there was a serious
problem.
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: Asa matter of fact, he thought the
JUDGE DENSON: He was saying that the water for that facility
rnmes from a different well than the water right here in town, and he said it does
have a real, real high lime content, and it's causing all kind of problems out there
for -
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: That's why the Sheriff and J. P.
wanted bottled water out there. It tastes different.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Weil, isn't there some other option for
handling that problem, some kind of a - a deal that's put on the system to help -
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Magnet deal.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Magnet deal that's supposed to break
or help keep the particles from building up in the system. A water softener
be necessary, too. I don't know that a water softener's going to solve the
I think you still have - I still think you have your lime problem even with
softener.
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51
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COMMISSIONER LETZ; We're talking about a pretty big ticket
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Maybe.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All that water will have to be treated. I
bet they go through an awful lot of water in that facility.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER; There may be another way to handle
it. We may have to get him to look into it. What is it, Tom Hoosier or somebody
selling those systems? I hear the ad on the radio.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Like the reverse osmosis thing.
You're talking major dollars. Those things cost SI,S00 fora home, `cause I have
I one.
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: Well, Culligan Water out here, they
handle that kind of -same kind of a deal.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We may need to get some kind of a -
encourage Tisdale to look into what will really solve the problem for long term, and
~ nOt -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I'd be happy to do that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because you're looking at lots of
dollars for that from now on.
COMMLSSIONER BALDWIN: Excellent point. Good point.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That would be a monthly expenditure
that could go - well, it goes forever. And those water heaters out there are not real
easy to replace, and they are expensive.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask the dumb question today.
r1'he water that arrives at the facility, the city water that arrives at the facility is - I

52
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mean, that's quality water, meets all specifications and everything. It's just -just
not the quality that we -that arrives at this courthouse; is that what you're saying?
COMMISSIONER OEB3.ER: No, I don't think that's it at all. It's
just that they may haves higher lime content in it, evidently, from what you're
getting. The quality is probably not any different as tar as drinking goes, but it just
could be a difference in the quantity of lime and things in it. But it's certainly -
JUDGE DENSON: You drink it over a long period of time sad it wi71
rust your pipes.
BALDWIN: I see. I've heard of that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think we can look into some other
options other than just water sotleaing.
LETZ: Any way we go, this is going to be a pretty
big ticket item, I think.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. Let's move to 2.8, Consider and discuss
appointment of appropriate signatory for permits to hold fu~evvorks on 4t6 of July.
What this is, that Rou Derrick guy came to me - did he contact you too?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
JUDGE DENSON; And they just simply need someone to sign the
contract, and he recommended that we authorize Rowan Zachary to do it, `cause
he's going to be acting as the Fire Marshal anyhow. So it's just simply a formality.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need it for the State Fire
Marshal licensing thing. We don't have a County Fire Marshal. We need to
appoint someone for this one instance to sign it so he can get the State permits
required.
53
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1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I think Mr. Zachary is qualified
2 as a - I mean, he's had the schooling and all that to be a fu•e marsha4
3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And this is actually the Sheriff's
4 I recommendation as well.
5 JUDGE DENSON: Yes, she uses Rowan on fire -arson cases and
6 such as that.
7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So move.
8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second.
9 JUDGE DENSON: Further discussion, comment? All in favor?
10 (The motion was carried by uaanimous vote.)
11 JUDGE DENSON: All right. Now, we need a Walker.
12 COMMISSIONER LACKEY: Can we handle the fire burn?
13 JUDGE DENSON: Yeah. This is that -she's getting all kinds of calls
14 about people wanting to know if the fire burn - I mean the bum ban is relaxed or
IS off now. And, let's see. As a second thonght, she had fded an addendum to our
16 Commissioners' Court meeting to address this, so we'll take that up right now and
17 discuss it. The question, of course, before the Court is did this -ittle sprinkle we had
18 last night give us reason to -not to reimplement this bum ban.
19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It didn't rain in the eastern part of the
ZO county; we didn't get a sprinkle.
tl COMMISSIONER LACKEY: I didn't either.
~2 JUDGE DENSON: We got a little bit out there in Hunt.
Z3 COMMISSIONER OEHI.ER: I had about an inch.
?4 JUDGE DENSON: I don't think we got an inch ont in Hunt. May
?5 have in Mountain Home, but, I mean, this is - to me, it's ridiculous to even ask. I
54
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that sun comes out and iYs going to be just as dry. That water didn't do
COMMISSIONER OEHLER; I think we can probably give
two days, instruct the part of the county that didn't get any rain to please
JUDGE DENSON: Well, I'm against all of it, personally.
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: I am, too. I called Elm Pass Volunteer
Fire Department; they didn't get a drop of rain out there. They said don't take it
Off, leave It On.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move we eztend the burn ban.
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: Second.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Effective when? Can we make it
~ effective at noon?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, is it still - is the old one still in
place at this very moment?
JUDGE DENSON: The way it works is it's for 14 days.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIIV: That was yesterday.
JUDGE DENSON: And we put the other one on -what date was it?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, it's today. Today's the 14"' day.
We did it oa a Monday, remember, and it didn't go into effect until the actual
following day we looked at it, which would be Tuesday, and that's today. That's 14
i aays, tnaay.
55
JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we just need to eztend it from
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JUDGE DENSON: EffeMive today.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Effective today.
JUDGE DENSON: Effective today at this time.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: At this very moment, in Kerr
JUDGE DENSON: I think what Bruce was asking me is if we want to
give some people out west a few hours to burn. That's what those people are asking.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Make it effective tomorrow at noon.
JUDGE DENSON: Yeah, let them run out there and start burning
things down this afternoon.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, before the moisture goes away.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. I've got a motion and second. Further
discussion and comments? A!1 in favor2
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm not opposed.
JUDGE DENSON: Oh, you're in favor. Okay.
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
JUDGE DENSON: We've got to find Walker. The rest of this stuff is
i Walker.
56
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He's around somewhere.
(Commissioner Letz left the courtroom.}
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: See if he's still in my office.
MS. WRIGHT: Have you already done ours oa the transportation of
the -that has bees done?
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JUDGE DENSON: Yes. I'm sorry, Dawa. I just completely
looked you. We received a letter from J. P. Ragsdale and we discussed it briefly.
what we did, we -
(Commissioner Letz entered the courtroom.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not ready yet, so that's the reason he's IIot
here.
JUDGE DENSON: We -there was a motion taken by the Court to go
out for bids, to have the Auditor go out for bids to maybe give notice to alt these
different funeral homes.
MS. WRIGHT: Good, okay.
JUDGE DENSON: Aud try to get some kind of agreement, something
UIIifOrm.
MS. WRIGHT: We definitely need it. Okay, thank you.
JUDGE DENSON: Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Morning.
MR WALKER: Morning.
JUDGE DENSON: It's your showtime, Walker time.
MR WALKER: Walker time? Okay.
.NDGE DENSON: We do things -
MR WALKER: Which of them are first?
JUDGE DENSON: The chronological order here, 2.9 is to hear from
57
Ms. Hart-Strosa.
MR WALKER: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE DENSON: Consider and discuss renovations on - or other
preservation topics with Lisa Hart-Stross, Division of Architecture, Texas Historical
Commission. Mr. Walker, if you want to -
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MR WALKER: Well, with no farther ado, yes. Lisa has been our
architecturally on the Texas Historical Commission for this region
a while. She was off for a while, now she's back on again, and so I brought her
here today to review where we are and what the Commissioners have voted to
and given her lots of yummy-looking pictures and stuff like that. And so
going to go around with us today and look at all this and review what we've -
we've recommended, and hopefully we'll try to get her blessing on what we're
about to do here. So I'd like her to - if she'd like to, to say a few words to you and
bring greetings from Austin.
MS. HART-STROSS: Thanks. I've looked at the plans and some of
the renderings that Mike sent me, and conceptually, I'd say that the proposal for
redoing the annex I find compatible. Aud scale-wise and all, it's a much more
extensive approach than what you have now, and it's certainly something that we
could approve. I've also looked at the preliminary proposals for the top floor of this
building, and obviously, a reuse and some modification for access at the upper level
between this building and the annex is necessary. And, once again, conceptually, I
think it's a-1 fine. I'll need to took at plans as they get developed further for the, you
know, specifics on how that -what the connection's going to look like, the floor plan
as it's more finalized to compare -what I'm going to be looking for is to see how
much of what was originally oa the top floor can be kept and what's going to need to
be modified in order to accommodate your new space needs. But I think it's on the
right track, and it's very exciting.
COMMISSIONER BALbWIN: It is exciting.
MS. HART-STROSS: Do you have any questions about process or -
58
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just have a silly question, actually.
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MS. HART-STROSS: Uh-huh?
BALDWIN: The Historical Commission - are
your rules more strict in the - would they be more strict in the older part of the
building than the annex?
MS. HART-STROSS: Definitely, yeah. We not - really, you pretty
much have carte blanche to do whatever you want, space-planning wise, on the
interior of the annex. We're looking at the exterior just from a compatibility point
of view to make sure that it doesn't detract from this building, and that's why we
would be looking at that, and especially since there's a physical connection between
the two. That's really where it comes into play. But as far as what you do inside,
that's pretty much up to you all for the annex building.
BALDWIN: There's an age-old debate of what
authority the Commission has at a courthouse now. Is it really inside the courthouse
square or the physical buildings, themselves?
MS. HART-STROSS: The Attorney General's office has interpreted
it as being the square, as far as what the State Courthouse Law applies to.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Another question, since you made the
comment that you, I guess, conceptually like the plan for the outside of the building.
Are there State grants to do something like that, to help pay for that, to make it more
rnmpatible, under your blessing?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And endorsement.
MS. HART-STROSS: Probably - for the aanex, no, `cause the
building itself would have to be either listed in the National Register, eligible for the
National Register, or have a recorded Texas Historic Landmark. So your building
59
here, the historic courthouse building could be eligible for one of our grants. And I
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understand that you all are going to be doing roof work at some point in the future.
Something like that, you could be - you should consider applying fora grant for.
There are different types of categories that we have a -our department, our agency
administers the Texas Historic Preservation Trust Fund, and it's a two-to-one
matching fund where the County would - we would provide one dollar for every two
dollars that the County provides.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're the person we contact regarding
that?
MS. HART-STROSS: Yeah. We have our applications go out every
June, aad they're due back usually the first Friday of September. And then our -
you know, it goes through an in-house review of the proposals, and ranging - we
have to -last year we got a little over 80 applications state-wide, and then our
Commissioners are - you know, we have a board of 13 Commissioners. They're the
ones that give final approval to the grants, and they usually announce awards
sometime at the - usually the end of October. That's when their meeting is. But
things like your roof work would rnunt, window work would count. Window work-
I notice there are still some windows on this side of the building that need work.
And that's -that type of work gets a higher - higher points in our ranking system,
`cause it would be considered structural; it's basically keeping the building weather-
tight as opposed to a rehabilitation of the interior which, although it's important, in
- you know, in ranking it, structural considerations are given higher priority.
LETZ: Could you provide the paperwork?
MS. HART-STROSS: Yeah, I could. I could send Mike a copy, and
then the Judge will automatically be getting an application sometime in June.
60
JUDGE DENSON: What did you say about the Historical Register?
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MS. HART-STROSS: That in order to be able to get funding of this
sort, your building has to be listed in the National Register or eligible for it or have a
State marker.
JUDGE DENSON: And I don't think ours is listed.
MR WALKER: No.
MR. HART-STROSS: No, I guess you're not. But I certainly would
be - well, I would think you would be eligible for it. It's something that our
department -our National Register department would have to give a -you know, a
read on. They'd have to write you a letter. But most county courthouses would be.
JUDGE DENSON: This has been finished since 1925.
MS. HART-STROSS: Right. Your annex doesn't help you a lot, but I
think, still, the building is - is still an important building, and it - it quite
conceivably would be eligible. So if you - I can request that the National Register
department look at it and evaluate it for you if you'd like.
JUDGE DENSON: Is there any cost associated with that?
MS. HART-STROSS: No, none whatsoever.
JUDGE DENSON: Would you please make such a request?
MS. HART-STROSS: Sure. And then you'll know whether it's worth
going through the process or not. Okay.
JUDGE DENSON: This subject came up - I don't know. I had a
grant writer, a professional grant writer that I forget what agency with the State he
had worked for, and he was in town talking with one of the outlying cities and came
by and we talked for a while. And he was telling me about all the grants available,
different things that the County could take advantage of, and this subject came up.
61
MS. HART-STROSS: Mm-hmm.
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JUDGE DENSON: And I can't remember what all he told me about
registered -
MS. HART-STROSS: Right.
JUDGE DENSON: -nationally, and what kind of hoops that you
to jump through or whatever. Ta it difficult?
MS. HART-STROSS: It's not, really. It's a very deliberate process.
application is, how thorough it is, and then just -you know, what other kind of work
is in the office. But the - we have a State Board of Review, and they meet four times
a year to evaluate the proposals. They evaluate the quality of the documentatIoa, as
well as the eligibility of the building. And if they pass both of those, then the staff at
the Histories! Commission edits the document and prepares it for - to be submitted
to D. C.
JUDGE DENSON: Oh, okay.
MS. HART-STROSS: To the Parks Service there. And once the Park
Service there gets it, the building is usually listed within 45 days.
JUDGE DENSON: Now, I think there's another question that came
up during my experience with that gentleman. Once you're registered with the
national folks and all, then there are further timitaNons put on this structure on
what you may or may not be able to do with it in the future, In other words, you're
asking for one more authority to come in anytime you would renovate?
MS. HART-STROSS: Well, that is true in very limited cases. In
general, the National Register listing does not encumber a building in any way. The
times when the National Register listing comes into play is when you're using some,
62
like, federal funds or when the federal government's involved in either permitting
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licensing or actual funding of a project. But at that point, it doesn't matter if your
building is actually listed or just eligible; it's an even playing field. So, say you all
were going to use EDA money to develop something here on the grouads. It
another. So for the courthouse, itself, listing it isn't going to encumber you. The -
and as a public building, any member of the public could at any point in time choose
to nominate and get the building listed, and they don't need the County's approval to
do that. Just like somebody - you know, they list State buildings without - you
know, the State isn't required to approve that either.
JUDGE DENSON: WeII, you must know that Kerr Couuty - we're so
MS. HART-STROSS: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A fine man he is.
JUDGE DENSON: And, lord, has it been a headache.
OEHLER; I'm so glad you said that, 'cause I was
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. Would you do -put that in motion?
MS. HART-STROSS: I will.
63
JUDGE DENSON: Whatever you have to do.
MS. HART-STROSS: Uh-huh. I'll have them look at - we probably
l--
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we request anything that we might need. But I'm sure we'll have enough in-
JUDGE DENSON: Thank you very much.
MS. HART-STROSS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you.
MS. HART-STROSS: You bet.
MR WALKER: Thank you.
JUDGE DENSON: Are you Mrs. Stross or Mrs. Hart-Stross?
MS. HART-STROSS: Oh, I answer to both.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. What do you prefer?
MS. HART-STROSS: Gosh, I don't have a preference. That's what
I makes it -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How about Lisa?
MS. HART-STROSS: Lisa's great.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Cool.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. 2.10, Consider and discuss further
revisions proposed by staff to the second floor courthouse annex and renovation
plan.
MR WALKER: Welt, we're a little early, so I guess she didn't come
~ down yet.
64
JUDGE DENSON: Who?
MR WALKER: Liuda. She's expecting us to be on at 11:30.
JUDGE DENSON: Well, she was here much earlier. Okay. You
want to go down to 2.11?
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MR WALKER: No, `cause he's not here either. I - I guess. I told
him if he could be here about 11:00, and I looked out there and he's not here, so I
don't -
JUDGE DENSON: Bet he's a member of the local Historical
Commission.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who is he?
MR WALKER: Mr. Gable, Larry Gable of MarUAbsolute
Demolition.
JUDGE DENSON: What do ya'all want to do, take a break?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can see if Linda's upstairs. Wasn't
she going to Austin or something?
MR WALKER: Well, she didn't say anything to me. I mean, she
may have not been able to be here.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It wasn't Austin, but it was
I somewhere.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe she's upstairs.
JUDGE DENSON: Ya'all want to take a 10-minute break?
MR WALKER: She's looked at this. I mean, she's done, unless she's
come up with something over the weekend that she wanted to change and I'm
unaware of it.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I thought we told her there weren't
going to be any more changes.
JUDGE DENSON: What is this model, this computer-generated
I model?
65
MR WALKER: Yes.
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JUDGE DENSON: That was done?
MR WALKER: Yes.
JUDGE DENSON: She looked at it?
MR WALKER: Yes. And if the Commissioners would like to peruse -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ts that what this is?
MR WALKER: That's one of the shots, yes. There's a lot of shots.
Let's resubmit the model and just keep going.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: See, we also didn't pay your bill this
morning.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We were waiting for you to appear.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That was Mr. Baldwin's
recommendation.
MR WALKER: Thanks, Buster.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're quite welcome, Mike. Why
am I taking the heat for this? Thanks, Bruce.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think it was you and Butch.
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: Look out, now.
MR WALKER: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mike, before you get into that, can I
just ask a question about the revisions that we're going to talk about?
MR WALKER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 1s this the revisions that we talked
about last time, or do we have brand new changes?
MR WALKER: The sketches that were included in your packet last
66
~ week -two weeks ago -
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That was the changes?
MR. WALKER: Those were the changes there on this drawing.
BALDWIN: Okay.
MR WALKER: And unless those got -
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nothing new since then?
MR. WALKER: No. I mean, minor tweaking, but nothing I could call
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I have one with.
MR. WALKER: There's some with eight columns and some with four
OEHLER: It's just a matter of-
MR WALKER: Well, what we have is we have structural columns
them, and so we created sort of a -the Judge will appreciate this term - "basilica
court" sort of approach to that, a little bit of classical memory of what it used to be
like. And in that, we - we also did some acoustical panels, which you can see on the
sides there, so that the judges can hang up their pictures and things like that. So
there's several different concepts there that we looked at in the process. But the
main thing is to show them what the relationship was between the judge and the
jury and the witnesses, and she seems to be satisfied with that. Now, they have not
signed off on it, I'll tell you that. It's not made the rounds, unless she's getting ready
67
to bring it down here. And I could not get ahold of the Sheriff to get their blessing,
but theirs was a very minor change where we had to switch the use of a restroom for
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a handicapped. So, it's basically - to my knowledge, it's ready to go. But if she's - if
you want to wait, that's fine.
JUDGE DENSON: There's not anything for us to approve today?
Because we're not sure.
MR. WALKER: At this very moment, until she says -
COMMISSIONER LETZ: My real preference is literally to Gave
them sign the drawings before we approve them, because otherwise they say they
didn't - we've been through this too many times with the judges and Linda. And
until they -
JUDGE DENSON: I think that's a good proposal.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have them sign them and say, No more
changes, this is the plan, and approving them - or recommending for final
documents to be draws up on. And until they do that, I'm not willing - I mean, not
before they change it. So, until they're willing to do that, I'd recommend that we
pass.
MR. WALKER: Okay. Can I check one more time for Mr. Gable and
see if he's out here for that issue?
JUDGE DENSON: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The judges are very hard to catch. Both
Judge Ables and Judge Prohl have been out of town.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the problem with getting the
Sheriff to sign off?
68
MR. WALKER: I guess she's just out of pocket. Lest - part of last
week, middle part of last week, she was out of her office.
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,~'~
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The other topic we passed on was your
bill. We passed on that this morning.
~I MR. WALKER: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why are you over your $16,000 cap?
MR. WALKER: There's some issues that had to do with the -the
drilling and so forth that is no part of what we do. )f you don't want to pay that part
of it, well, so be it. It's a hundred dollars.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a hundred sixty-some dollars that
you're over the $16,000 cap.
MR WALKER: I'll eat that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. If you insist, Mike. We're
going to do everything we can to work with you.
MR. WALKER: I understand. And you have been absolute
gentlemen.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we probably need a motion to - I
don't know the amount of that bill. The bill was four thousand something, I believe.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right.
MR WALKER: Ya'all weren't kidding, were you?
II COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mr. Walker, I have not said anything
abOUt it.
69
MR WALKER: I would not expect you to.
(Judge Denson -eft the courtroom.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The Auditor asked me why you were over
your limit, asked me if we raised your limit. I said no, I did not recall doing that.
MR. WALKER: Your Auditor's doing a good job.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We have to finalize the budget
October the 1", and we were hoping to have that number, the bid, the total cost of
the project to be done prior to the adoption of the October i budget, to the best of my
recollection.
MR WALKER: How much lead time do you need then?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, we need at least two or three
weeks in order to - I mean, three weeks to a month, preferably, in order to be able to
submit a figure that -where we have it posted in the Clerk's Office for review by
the general public.
MR WALKER: So if you had it by the end of August?
JUDGE DENSON: At the very, very latest. Preferably by the middle
of August.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
MR WALKER: All right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Cau you do that?
MR WALKER: Let me double-check the schedule, but I'm pretty
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's going to be too close.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to have that, I agree.
JUDGE DENSON: With reference to the bill that was proposed
earlier -presented to the Court earlier for Mr. Walker.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mike said he'd - we don't have to pay that
extra 5160, he'll just eat it. Reduce his check by the amount of that overage. I make
a motion we authorize the payment of that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second.
~t
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MR TOMLINSON: Is that it for me?
JUDGE DENSON: Wait a minute. This is what ya'all want to do?
Apparently it is. Okay. Any further comments? All in favor?
(Commissioners Baldwin, Lackey, and Letz indicated in the
JUDGE DENSON: All opposed?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think we ought to pay him the whole
JUDGE DENSON: I agree, too.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: He volunteered.
JUDGE DENSON: You were just too quick.
MR WALKER: Oh. Well, speaking of that, I've got your check for
$40 for that set of plans that didn't get returned. Would you like me to sign that
over to you?
JUDGE DENSON: Yes, please. Okay. Now, we do have the District
72
MR WALKER: Yes.
JUDGE DENSON: We want to go back to that subject of changes and
make approval of the final plans.
MR WALKER: Did you get people to sign off?
MS. DECKER: I just got it this morning.
MR WALKER: Oh. She's been gone, I guess.
MS. DECKER: I was gone Friday afternoon fora little while. My
judges are both there, but they're both in court We've got a jury this morning, so -
~"` 1
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I have no doubt that this - I had already discussed with them the changes that
were going to make.
MR WALKER: Well, they've just iaformed me that they do not want
sign; not until they've signed off on it, Linda.
MS. DECKER: Okay. I'll get them to do it today before they leave.
BALDWIN: Get them all.
BUDGE DENSON: Linda, let me bring you up to where the Court's
MS. DECKER: Okay.
NDGE DENSON: Timing is becoming more important all the time.
We want a final plea, and it's only with that final plan that he can make - start
putting his pencil to coming up with an overall bid package to advertise and have
people bid on, where we can come - we can get some dollars that we're looking at
that we caa bill into the budget --
MS. DECKER: I understand.
JITDGE DENSON: -for next year. And the more time ya'all take on
too short. Would you mind trying to get Karl and Steve to sign off on that today?
MS. DECKER: Yes.
NDGE DENSON: And then the Court could take action on it this
73
again.
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MS. DECKER: Okay. I will go let them know that I have to see them
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: One o'clock.
MS. DECKER: Before 1:00.
JUDGE DENSON: And then you can bring it down here at 1:15 or
MS. DECKER: Well, no, one of them doesn't. So - he works right
JUDGE DENSON: Pretty please. Okay. Tommy? Did you have
MR WALKER: One last issue. There is a preconstruction meeting
Letz? And if any of you would like to be here and hear what has to be said, we've
invited all the department heads to either come or send a representative,
particularly those that are going to be affected in the annex. We would like to invite
you to -any of you that would like to be there in case you want to hear what's said.
we are going to work a little bit on procedures this afternoon to make sure
there's so many people involved, we want to make sure that we're not stepping on
iy toes or causing any problems. So, hopefully, the contractor will be here and -
you want him to come -when he comes in, are you going to come back to discuss
at issue?
JUDGE DENSON: The Commissioners' Court has posted a meeting
and we ordinarily do have 1:30 set aside for Executive Session, but it puts us back
74
court; we can take up that other matter. I won't be here; I have to go to San
~/^" 1
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Antonio. But this 2.11, I guess, is what you're talking about, the meeting with - or
alternate procedures by Mart, Inc.
MR WALKER: Yes.
JUDGE DENSON: I assume the Court would listen to you.
MR WALKER: Okay. But you're getting ready to adjourn now?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: At 1:15.
MR WALKER: Could we do it after you - is that going to be a long
to
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75
COMMISSIONER LACKEY: It's only 11:30.
JUDGE DENSON: If this guy shows up real quick
MR WALKER: Oh, okay.
JUDGE DENSON: Let's see. Tommy, we wanted to talk to you about
Walker's bill, but also the Court took action on 2.6, which dealt with
transportation of bodies to the Travis County Medical Examiner's office for
autopsies. And the letter gave rise to this agenda item from J. P. 4, and we
had J. P. 2 here in the courthouse talking about the difference in prices some
of these funeral homes are charging. In particular, Kerrville Funeral Home,
they say they're charging $300, whereas these others Gave charged anywhere
from $150 to $200. J. P. Ragsdale suggested, and the Court took action on
this aed voted, that we would go out for bids to these different funeral homes
and how much we could maybe get a contract fora year with one of them to
provide these services. And the Court - let's see, the maker of the motion
suggested very strongly that the Auditor assist in this process.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy, I tried to defend you, but be
Ir-r t
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MR. TOMLINSON: I'm sure you did.
3UDGE DENSON: I never used your name. But anyhow, would you
help us with that, please?
MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah.
JUDGE DENSON: Thank you. Okay. Now we're back to Walker.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What time is Mr. Mart, Inc.,
supposed to be here?
MR. WALKER: 11:30.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 11:30.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, shall we just Gave a short
recess?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, I'd like to do that.
JUDGE DENSON: Hang around, don't run off. Let's take a ten
minute recess, come back at 11:30.
(Whereupon a brief recess was taken.)
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. It's 25 of 12:00, 26a' of May,'98. We're at
2.11 agenda item, Consider and discuss proposed alternate procedures by contractor
Mart, Inc., for the courthouse renovations. Mr. Walker?
MR. WALKER: Yes, sir, thank you. I have Mr. Larry Gable here
rom Mart, Inc., and they have some other people here and they're ready to start
ork and sign the contract. I believe you've got a copy of it. And they're ready to
o, and so he has some proposals be would like to suggest to you. Just let me back up
ust a minute and tell you -refresh your memory that they were originally to do all
heir work at nights and evenings -nights and evenings; that's good -nights and
eekends and after hours. In other words, so they won't disrupt the folks

76
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downstairs that are trying to do business. And they were to wet saw the concrete
into manageable chunks so they could haul it out of there and dump it out of their
chute into the trucks or dumpsters or whatever. Mr. Gable has come up with some
alternative suggestions. He has found a machine that he wants to tell you about, I
guess. I don't know how much he wants to tell you today, but I'll let him tell you
bow much you want to hear, and then I will tell you what our recommendation is,
which I sent to Mr. Letz here the other day, relafive to how we do this on sort of a
trial and wait and see kind of a situation. So, if I could give it over to Larry Gable.
MR GABLE: Hi. Is this a comfortable spot to stand? Good morning,
I'm Larry Gable with Mart Incorporated. We do demolition all over the state. The
Absolute Aemolition is also an entity that I am associated with and President of.
They will be performing the majority of the work on this project. I originally was
with Mart Incorporated in Dallas, opened their Austin office and Vice President
running that branch. When we work as a prime contractor, Mart Incorporated is
who we more often than not contract as, because we're recognized as a prime
contractor. As Mike alluded to, we wanted to make some addendums or changes to
process of how we do the demolition up here. Being familiar with demolition and
what most of the tolerances are, every building has its own considerations
1 own key people that we have to appease; however, it's pretty much the same
d of work. Those are mostly plaster walls and ceilings, and if we can bring them
vn in - in manageable pieces that will go in a wheelbarrow, then I believe we can
the work concurrent with the daily operations that happen on the floor below ns.
e advantage to that is that the unforeseen incidents that will come up with
or dismantling, whether it be we pop a breaker that for some reason
tied in downstairs when it should have only been upstairs -someone got in the
77
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ceiling and found a convenient J-boa, tied it in, and now we have a computer that
won't work -those instances, if we're up there working, we hear about it
immediately. We have the familiar people that are maintenance or facilities-
orieated that can help us resolve it, and we can come to a resolution quickly. If we
have a water leak, it happens while people who are familiar with the building and
have the facilities to help us with those ideas of how to -how to resolve it. So I think
that from an administrator's backlash from a - a maintenance engineer's
availability, from a construction standpoint, if we just break a hydraulic hose, it's
only a S15 fix, but it's the next day or the next night before we get it repaired and
back in place. So there are some real benefits to us bending over backwards to make
it work out where our processes can go hand-in-hand with what's going on below us
with the County Annex, and so we believe that we can facilitate that. We have
adjusted schedules before on jobs to where we did - we knew we had two or three
days of really noisy stuff to do, so we would come in at 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning,
by 9 o'clock we're down to just the clean-up process, and then at noon or so we
off with our 8-hour day, and we have been successful at that. We believe that
's a process that would benefit both the County and us as a contractor. We had
attached a dollar valve to that and offered it through Mike as a rebate if we're
at that operation and are allowed to continue with it. That's the first
Secondly, Mike alluded to the cutting of concrete, and you're familiar with
jail and that the lid or the ceiling in it is poured concrete. The walls are not too
to demo, but the ceiling, being an expansion, being poured-in-place, is going
be somewhat more tedious to dismantle and bring down. There is a shear which is
-I'll just say a pair of scissors -that is made to the magnitude that it will cut
78
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concrete. Aad it typically is mounted on a skid steer loader, which is commonly
referred to as a Bobcat. And you just raise it up overhead, and it has a center screw
passes between the two fingers and will actually, not with a percussion, but just
through hydraulic pressure, nibble its way through concrete. We have - we have
used these in hospitals, we've used them in shopping centers. They are a very
manageable tool There is a weight restriction on that floor that we're concerned
about, and that we need some engineering help with in consulting whether or not
this is reasonable to use on that floor. But if we're allowed to use that, we have a
substantial rebate to the County, if this process will work. Now, that process is
somewhat down the road. We want to go in and reduce as much debris, weight toad
off of the floors as we can before we start the concrete process. We feel there's a lot
of band work in there, anyway. We'd like to get that work out of the way and taken
care of before we have to introduce any new weight to it. So those are all
considerations that have a little bit of a technical requirement to them that we have
yet to resolve, but it's something that we look forward to resolving and being able to
offer you the new, innovative way of doing demolition and moving it indoors there.
So we - we are prepared to start. We have some mea upstairs now just getting tools
lined out and becoming familiar with the building. They took down one section of
wall so that the salvaged items that go to -from the auction can be removed more
readily, and are basically on standby until we have concluded our agreements so
that we can begin work.
JUDGE DENSON: It sounds like to me that there's a request being
made to - to modify the contract where the work can be done during the day as
79
opposed to non-working hours.
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MR WALKER: That is the first part of his proposal is to work
during normal working hours, except they may come in a little bit earlier, but that
would be an overlap in working hours. And for that he was going to offer a $3,300
credit change order to the -back to the County. And then the other -the other
machine issue was more in the magnitude of SI3,000, but he's -that recipe is not
done yet, and so if I can just briefly tell you what my recommendation is, or if you
want to ask some more questions first and then I'll tell you, but basically our
recommendation is we can try and see if this daylight operation works. If there's
any complaints or there's any problems, it can be stopped. But that -that needs to
be a decision, I think, that needs to be brought before the Commissioners' Court,
because that's not what the contract said. The contract said nights and weekends.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question. This shearing tool
that you're referring to, you said that ya'all have used that before in hospitals and -
MR GABLE: Here is a sequence of pictures. It will give you au idea
of what a shear is and does. However, this is a huge -this one is big. Now, this is a
concrete canopy on the front of a hospital. Now I'm going to remove that; it took
about an hour and a half. But it's all poured-in-place concrete. So, there it is. This
is just a plaster ceiling knocked out of it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. When you cut this thing in
pieces, it just falls on the floor?
MR GABLE: Take another -take -flip the page.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're not going to get angry with
me, are you?
MR GABLE: No. In here we're about to break through this ceiling,
so I'll - it will be more obvious. To answer your question, I wanted to show you a

80
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BALDWIN: Right.
MR GABLE: I believe -and we'll use shoring posts as we see it's
down, in that the shear that we propose to use will have a 10•inch jaw, l0 inch open,
i l inch throat. And so it's only going to get about 8 or 9 inches of concrete at a time.
And the rebar that's in this lid is only Number 4; it's half-inch bar, so it's not going
to be - if you can see the size of debris that this is creating, and it's way up in there,
really thick, you can imagine that a smaller one is going to - as we crumble around
we Gave a good bit of control with it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mike, is be making a correct
MR. WALKER: Well -
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That the debris will be smaller
MR WALKER: Neither your architect aor your engineer have ever
And so what we are suggesting there is that an engineering study be done, because
we're still a little bit concerned about the - what you would call point loading,
putting an 8,000-pound - 8,500-pound machine up there that's -that, in essence, can
be an impact load. In other words, it's - it's kind of like a car; it's moving around,
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it's doing things. So we - we recommend to you that -and this would have to come
from the savings, that an engineering study be done in terms of moving all that
around. And Larry and I have talked about that, and I think we're in pretty much
agreement that that will be the wise thing to do. Because, for eaample, what he sort
of mentioned there for just a second was the fact that he wanted to shore up from
below. Well, if you shore up from below, you're in the Court at Law, the Taz
Assessor's, back in the back of the County Clerk's office, so there may be some
problems with that. And the engineer didn't, you know, jump at that with joy right
away. So I need to know - we need to know what the full impact of this is going to
be if we're going to go about it. But I think the question you should ask is - is a very
valid one, Commissioner Baldwin, and that is that -you know, is this thing going to
make noise that is going to be a problemY I don't think - we may not know that until
we do it, until they actually determine for sure. And if that were the case, then it
may well still have to move to nighttime operation. If it's - if it's just that softball-
size pieces of concrete hitting that concrete floor, dropping 8 feet, yeah, that may be
a problem for the people below. So there's still another fine-tune that you could do
to it, but the first thing I think we have to do is decide whether or not we want to - I
would recommend to you that you decide whether or not the time -overlap of time
or the daytime operation is advisable so that he can know how to proceed. We can
try that for about a month. I don't think Larry mentioned that - mentioned that it's
further off, but he has some time, several weeks. And we talked about the June 11"'
meeting, come back and decide whether or not you want him to go into the rest of
this, the shear. In other words, they rnuld try working daytime now. If it got to be a
problem, you could say, That's too much noise, Larry; go to work at night, or you
could just keep going. And then, by that time, you'll have had a chance to sort of
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experience working together and see how things are going, and you could decide
whether you want him to pursue actively the shear. And then if it gets to be a
question, well, is it shear in the daytime or shear at night or both or whatever. But I
think it -it's sort of a step-by-step process.
MR. GABLE: Right. We have two considerations here. The first one
83
is the daytime or daylight hours working in conjunction with the County. And in
that scenario, we're asking that we - you let us pursue that, and on the June llei
meeting, by then we'1- know whether or not we were successful at staying out of
trouble. And if that's the case, then we would like you to consider our proposal for a
rebate to continue on that - on those daylight hours. Then there's the question of a
shear. And it is an innovative -it's new on the market, to have a mini-shear, which
would be mountable to a Bobcat. And so there are different ways of handling it. If
you've ever seen what's called a spider lift, it's a forklift that hooks on the back of a
truck. They lift grass pallets, are real maneuverable, very light also. Something
along that line in an electric is also possible to reduce the amount of point load,
which is all the weight in one spot on the floor, which is a concern. And the Bobcat
adds a lot of weight there, and that's our whole concern for the weight. The shear,
itself, is only 1,100 pounds, not a heavy or hard to maneuver piece. It's - if we have
to go more robotic than conventional skid steer, then that's out there yet to be
determined on how we would consider taking that lid off the jail. Only about 35
percent of the area that has to be demo'd is the concrete cells themselves, and that's
the area that we're proposing using the shear on. One thing also to consider is
there's about a 2-inch pour of concrete on top of the structural concrete. That is
going to aM significantly as a pad. It will be dampening for sound and spread the
point load as it lays - if you've ever put a piece of plywood over a weak spot in a
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JUDGE DENSON: Mike, you mentioned earlier that the cost of the
MR WALKER: Yes.
JUDGE DENSON: Let's look at the other option that's available. If
engineering work that was done, who's paying for it?
MR WALKER: Well, I cannot recommend anything that changes the
engineering study.
MR GABLE: There you go.
MR WALKER: To determine whether or not - whether he uses our
JUDGE DENSON: That's my point. There's no cost to the County?
MR WALKER: No.
to the night, as we first came up with, is going to have to be on atrial basis. All
84
right. You Gave a lot of people, as you already know, that can be affected by this,

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MS. DECKER: If it helps, just for their information, all of the courts,
including the County Court at Law, the busiest times are the mornings. You know,
that's when you have the big jury panels in and usually the selection of down to 12
or 6, in their case. That all takes place, most of the time, in the morning.
MR. GABLE: And so would you say that by noon, 70 percent of the
JUDGE DENSON: That's just the courtrooms she's talking about.
people that are there full time working, a number of personnel. But -
MR. GABLE: Yes, sir.
JUDGE DENSON: Let's see. Are you suggesting, Mike, that we
during the day?
MR. WALKER: Right, to allow me to write a directive so that I can
daytime.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So move.
JUDGE DENSON: Okay. I've got a motion .
85
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll second it, with one comment.
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JUDGE DENSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That comment being that you stated
that you have gone in at 4:30 in the morning and worked till whatever time, 9:00 or
whatever, and that the rest of the day be clean-up time. Is that what you're saying?
MR GABLE: I'm saying that we have done by degree - we Gave
worked in - you know, bipartisan with the other facility that's there. I think that
sometimes 8:00 to 5:00 works best, just for security and control factors, and having
people be able to shut down a system for us and bring it back up at the end of our
shift. So, yes, that is within - starting at 5:00 in the morning is also within what
we're considering, being the daytime versus the nighttime and weekends only. And,
you know, that's not extreme for us to consider in - in the fact that we get to work
during the day when normal maintenance and facilities are open.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Normally around here there's not a
whole lot going on till after 8 o'clock in the morning, and not till 8:30 in some offices.
So you would have, yon know, three, three and a half hours of noisy time before
anything really happened around here.
MR GABLE: Well, beyond OSHA requirements, the procedures in
demolition is pretty much interpretive, and we - we make it up every morning. And
if we have to stop in an area, work around it and then come back at 5:30 to 8:00 in
the morning and knock that out, then that's typically the way it's done. It's not,
Well, we're building a bridge and we need to stay with it.
JUDGE DENSON: I've got a motion and a second.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got one quick comment. I'd
86
asked you earlier - and I apologize. I started looking at your photographs and never
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MR GABLE: This is a job that we're on and that is a shear. The
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There will be somebody around here
MR GABLE: Nowhere to plug it in.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And we're talking about the trial
period going through the June il~ meeting?
MR WALKER: Yes. Yeah, we were going to put it back on the
agenda for June 11, see if everybody's happy, things are working all right. If they
are, then we'll - I'd ask you to consider whether or not -and by that time, I guess
maybe you'll be ready to start your engineering study or you will have already done
your engineering study or whatY
MR GABLE: We'll continue to pursue -unless we have an objection
at this point, we'll continue to pursue the feasibility of putting together a machine
87
that will handle the shear and handle the conditions in-house here. And unless we
get a -you know, a stop the effort indication from ya'all today, then I will pursue
that. And Mike's indication about the engineering study to come out of the savings, I
think, was to point out that, well, considering that whatever the contractor is
offering you as a rebate, there's going to be some cost in developing that idea. And I
think it was rightly stated that that would be our cost to bear to confirm that the
process is available and reasonable.
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MR WALKER: But you would not have done the engineering study
MR GABLE: I will probably not have done it by the l lm.
MR WALKER: A11 right. Did that answer your question?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes.
(Judge Denson left the courtroom.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: One comment I have is that if we're
getting complaints, we're not going to wait until the 11'~ to stop working.
MR GABLE: No, sir. We're asking that if, by the lls', we have
handled the complaints and made adjustments appropriately, that you consider that
being a -you know, the way we finish the job.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. We've got a motion and second.
MR WALKER: Okay, I'll write it up.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's it for the morning session.
MS. DECKER: Bruce, I have everything - everybody signed off
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's enough for me; I'll tell
sign.
88
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you got the judges, that's enough
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MS. UECKER: I got the judges.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So we need to go back to 2.10, and that
is to discuss further revision proposed by staff for second floor annex renovations
plan. Do we want to go ahead and authorize Mr. Walker to proceed with the plans
and specifications at this time, based on the plan presented and signed off by the
~ judges?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So move.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: All in favor?
(The motion was carried by unanimous vote.)
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We are now in recess until 1:30.
(Whereupon the luncheon recess was taken.)
**r~***
89
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: As per our posted agenda, we will now
open our afternoon session. It's 1:30. We will open our public meeting and, as
posted, we will go into Executive Session at 1:31 to discuss pending and possible
litigation with our civil attorney, Mr. Tom Pollard. At this time we'll close the
meeting and go into Executive Session.
(The open session was closed at 1:31 p.m. and an Executive Session
was held, the transcript of which is contained in a separate document.)
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. We'll close Executive Session
and we will find the clerk and instruct her that there is no action to betaken. We're
coming out of Executive Session at 18 minutes ti112 o'clock. This meeting is in recess
until the end of the week
(Commissioners' Court was adjourned at 1:42 p.m.)
L__
CERTIFICATE
The above and foregoing is a true and complete transcription of my stenotype
notes taken in my capacity as Official Reporter of the Commissioners' Court of Kerr
County, Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
Dated at Kerrville, Texas, this 1st day of June,199S.
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~~GO/~"~/-kj
Kathy nik
Certified Shorthand Reporter