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SPECIAL COMMISSIONERS' COURT AGEN A
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 1, 1999, 6:30 P.M.
COUNTY COURT AT LAW COURTROOM
KERR COUNTY COURTHOUSE
KERRVILLE, TEXAS 78028
THIS NOTICE IS POSTED PURSUANT TO THE TEXAS OPEN
MEETINGS ACT. (TITLE 5, CHAPTER 551, GOVERNMENT CODE AND
TITLE 5, CHAPTER 552, GOVERNMENT CODE.)
This Commissioners' Court will hold a meeting at 6:30 P.M., Wednesday,
September 1, 1999, at the Kerr County Courthouse in the County Court at Law
Coumoom.
CALL MEETING TO ORDER
I. CONSIDERATION AGENDA: (Action may be taken on Items
listed below)
1.1 Consider and discuss status of implementation of 911 street and
address guidelines.
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1 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
2 and
3 911 BOARD OF MANAGERS
4 Joint Meeting
5 September 1, 1999
6 6:30 p.m.
7 County Court at Law Courtroom
g Kerr County Courthouse
9 700 Main Street
10 Kerrville, Texas
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19 Implementation of 9-1-1 Street and Address Guidelines
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20 Commissioners Court
21 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge
H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
22 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 9
23
911 Board of Managers
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PRESENT: JACK D. TEER, Chairman
25 ROWAN ZACHARY, Member
PAUL E. RUSSUM, Member
Q
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On Wednesday, September 1, 1999, at 6:30 p.m., a Joint
Meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and the 911
Board of Managers was held in the County Court at Law
Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerr County, Texas, and
the following proceedings were had in open court: i
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE HENNEKE: I'll now call to order this special)
meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. It's
Wednesday, September 1, 1999, at 6:30 p.m.. Let the record
reflect that a majority of Commissioners are present.
Gentlemen, I'll let you call your meeting to order.
MR. TEER: Well, this meeting of the 911 Board of
Managers is called to order. It's 6:30, September the 1st.
We're meeting in the Commissioners Courtroom here; is that
correct?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Actually, County Court at Law.
MR. TEER: County Court at Law. Other Board
members present are Mr. Zachary and Mr. Russum. I'm Jack
Teer. Other employees -- Mr. Sandlin is around here
somewhere. Miss Kinney.
JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll call on Commissioner Griffin,
who set this up, to kick it off and do it.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. I have -- Buster and
I both had talked a little bit with T. over the last several
weeks. In fact, Buster and I, some months ago, I guess now,
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attended one of your Board meetings, and shortly thereafter,
we got the guidelines adopted by the County, and things have
been moving on. But, it appears that maybe now is a good
time to talk about implementation, and to be able to do that
in a -- in a forum where, if necessary, if we need to take a
vote on something or you need to take a vote on something, we
can do that, and try to clarify and make sure everybody
understands the steps that we're going to be going through
over the next several months to get the system fully
implemented.
And, so, that's the -- that, to me, is the real emphasis
of this get-together, is how do we implement? And are there
-- are there ways we can make it easier by approaching
certain things certain ways? I'll talk about, for example,
court orders. At some point, when we have to rename or name
a road that may not even have a name -- in some cases that
may happen, but we need to fully understand what we, the
Court, have to do, because those names have to be done by
court order, as the guidelines call for and the statute calls
for.
So, I think, probably, to -- to kick this off -- and we
may want to -- I don't have any remarks on this or anything,
but before we get into perhaps asking T. where we stand on
implementation and then sort of what are the steps that are
out in front of us and what's going to happen over the next
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few months and so on, we may want to hear from anybody,
either from the Court or the Board, on -- on names we ought
to know about.
MR. TEER: It will be of benefit, probably, first
of all, to have a general overview and an update on where it
all stands, and at that point, if everybody's agreeable, we
can turn the floor over to Mr. Sandlin and let him have it
at, as long as he gets through tonight.
MR. SANDLIN: I'm hungry, guys; this isn't going to
last long.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I do have one question, Larry.
Is a representative from the Postal Service here?
MR. SANDLIN: That was my question.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there a Postal Service
representative?
MR. RUSSUM: Yeah, there was supposed to be one.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We were supposed to have the
-- Chief Postal Officer? What's the title?
MR. SANDLIN: Officer-in-Charge.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Officer-in-Charge or
something like that. Maybe -- maybe that person will show up
here shortly.
MR. ZACHARY: That's the key to getting a smooth
transition, because everything we do will be great, but if
they're not on board as we do it, it's adjusting to another
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level of --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: One of the things I think we
need to discuss and fully understand is -- is even -- even
though we know we want to make this as accommodating -- this
whole process as accommodating as we can for the Postal
Service, I think we have to be careful that we don't make
that the driver, because the 911 service, the emergency
medical or whatever, is your concern, and it's our concern
too. And, while we want to accommodate everything we can
with the Postal Service, there may be some cases where we're
going to have some rough spots we're lust going to have to
wade off into, and if it requires some gnashing of teeth and
trying to work it out, that's lust what it will have to be.
But, it -- it certainly would be good if they were here.
And, they -- T., is there anybody here from City of
Kerrville?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, I see see Dane Tune, Assistant
City Manager. Chuck Dickerson, Chief of Police, is here.
Raymond Holloway said he was going to be here.
MR. RUSSUM: I'm the representative on 911 of the
City.
MR. SANDLIN: I'm going to pass these around to the
Commissioners. I know the other ones -- everybody else has
them. Just so you can see what they look like. I have
plenty of them on disk. Need to make sure -- that's the
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County Clerk's. If you haven't seen them, that's what we're
using for the application, with instructions on the back if
someone needs to change a road name, name a private road.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: A private road?
MR. SANDLIN: On private and public roads; there's
four there. Name a private road, rename a private road --
or, excuse, me I should say public access road and private
access road. And then get off in that territory again. May
I lust talk?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, you're in charge.
MR. SANDLIN: We're in -- we're already started
with the permanent addressing. We're trying to coordinate
this as much as we can. We're not letting the Post Office
drive us, but, understand, we need to coordinate with them.
The biggest majority of people that come into our office are
wanting an address for one of two reasons. They want to know
if they're going to get their mail and their UPS packages --
did I get you, Buster? -- or they want to -- or they've got
to have a meter pole connection, some type of utility
connection. The people coming in to get an address for 911
purposes, you know, who want to make sure the ambulance gets
there and everything, is in the minority. But, what we're
doing is assigning physical addresses, and we're going into
the permanent addressing stage.
In the west end of the county, we talked with Cindy
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Guerrero, who couldn't be here tonight, and who is the A.M.S.
Coordinator, Automated Mail Systems, I believe, for the Del
Rio region, which we are in, for the Post Office. And we
said, "Look, we've got to start somewhere. We did agree with
one thing. Usually, in most counties, they take one zip code
at a time and deplete those zip codes and those routes. What
they agreed to try with us, since it appeared we had
everything in pretty good working order, was that we could
use our working multiple zip code areas, as far as they were
concerned.
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So, the west end of the county, due to different
reasons, announced first; Mountain Home, Ingram, and Hunt.
So, they gave us the -- what they call the check and edit
sheets, which is their list of the routes, which I cannot
share publicly; that is some confidential stuff. And, what
we do is we get the -- as we identify this house as your
house and give you the number 108 Smith Road, we tell you
that's your 911 address for 911 purposes, to post it, and you
get a little letter saying that you need to contact your
Postmaster because that may not be your mailing address.
Eventually, it will convert to that, and I've got a little
chart showing that in a minute. One thing we're --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Might I interrupt a minute?
MR. SANDLIN: Sure.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 'Cause one of the things
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that has come up repeatedly, I think, for the benefit of the
public and for the benefit of the Court and the Board, is
that assigning a 911 number and street name in no way means
that where you physically pick up your mail is going to
change. I'll repeat that again. Having a 911 address does
not mean that the Post Office Department is going to suddenly
start sending mail to that house or to deliver to that house.
MR. SANDLIN: Or to deliver to that house, in
particular.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You will still pick up your
mail at the post office box, if that's the way you get your
mail now, or it will be delivered to a mailbox physically
located right where it is right now, unless you get together
with the Post Office people to change the location of that
box.
MR. SANDLIN: I don't --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That is key to this whole
thing. It's so key, and I'm just trying to help here, T.,
because I know you answer that question 70 times a day.
MR. SANDLIN: 911 does not make that decision. 911
does not run the Post Office, doesn't want to run the Post
Office. We just want to cooperate and coordinate where we
can.
On what Larry's talking about -- Mr. Griffin -- let me
give you an example. I'm talking about rural route
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addressing. Let's -- I don't know if everybody can see this;
I'll try to hold it up. Let's say that's a clustered mailbox
that y'all have all seen before. That's the fancy ones, or
like I have, it's a bunch of old tin ones out on the road.
This is all fictitious; this doesn't represent anything. i
But, when you look up at those mailboxes, you'll see Rural
Route 3, Box 26, 27, 28, and 29, and they somehow correspond
to these houses. Now, these numbers, 108, 117, 110, just
play like they don't exist there for a minute. So, we know
that we've got these and we've got routing slips that say,
"T. Sandlin is Rural Route 3, Box 26," so I can find T.
Sandlin's mailbox. Now it gets a little tricky. Which one
of those four houses does that mailbox belong to? Now, I'll
get into that in a minute.
So, you have these posted at this cluster box for these
houses. Then we come in, hoping to get the roads named
clearly and start posting your -- or start getting your
permanent address, so that house number one becomes 108.
House number two becomes 117 Northwest Lime Lane -- I just
made those street names up -- 110 and 106 Northwest Teak
Road. And, once that route -- let's say that this Highway 12
is the only thing on Rural Route 3. Post Office parameters
for that is, once we have the 90 percent threshold, we think
we've got 90 percent of those converted, then they will come
back and send you a letter that will say, "T. Sandlin, Rural
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Route 3, Box 26, you may now start using for your mailing
address also 108 Northwest" -- I have to look at this
sideways -- "108 Northwest Lime Lane."
And, then, what you'll do, it's real simple. Instead of
posting Rural Route 3, Box 26 on my mailbox, it becomes 108
Northwest Lime lane. I still get my mail right there. All
we've done is hopefully clarified one less address for you to
have to mess with. Now, if you're getting your address at a
post office box, nothing changes. But, just because we've
given these addresses, that is not a mandate on the Post
Office to give point-to-point delivery here.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is there anybody here in the
audience or anybody sitting at the table here that has any
question about that? Because I think this is one of the most
confused -- confusing issues in the public mind right now,
and if we can make sure we've got that clarified and if we
can publicize that well in our local media and so on, I think
we'll see a lot less problem in the community with accepting
what this means. This is -- that -- I think that concept --
and very well explained, I might add -- I think, is key to
this whole process for people to understand. If anybody's
got any questions, I'd just say ask them now.
MR. TEER: I have a question, and I've been asked
this. Will there be an option where, if -- the fella who has
Rural Route 3, Box 26, is it -- does he have the option to
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leave that as his mailing address only? In other words, if
his kinfolks have been writing to him at that address for 25
years, can they keep writing to him at that address, and the
-- the ambulance go to 108 Northwest Lime Lane?
MR. SANDLIN: Well, in the short-term, yes. In the
long-term, no. Once you get your notice from the Post Office
-- and I was even not quite clear on this till a few weeks
ago. Once we've got -- reached that 90 percent threshold,
we've got 90 percent of Rural Route 3 done, once the Post
Office sends you the letter saying that they're converting,
you have a year from that date. Not the date that we
converted it, but a year from when they send you your letter,
so you've got a little more of a buffer.
The Post Office, due to a bunch of different reasons,
and I'll -- since I'm hungry, I'm not going to go into a
whole bunch of detail, is trying -- basically, we're trying
to get away from the rural route addressing. They will still
have routes, but because their information has to tie-in with
so many other databases -- and I'm not speaking on behalf of
the Post Office; I'm reporting what they've reported to me.
Their stuff needs to mesh with Census Bureau, Federal
Transportation Data Committee, all these other things that --
telephone companies, too, so we don't have all these
different addresses scattered around, they want to go to what
they call city-style addressing for everyone.
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Now, for a year after they send the letter to me at 108
Northwest Lime Lane, for a year after they send the letter --
not after you get your letter from us. If they don't get the
letter to you for two years, you've still got another year
after that. They will deliver to both 108 Northwest Lime and
Rural Route Box -- Rural Route 3, Box 26 at that first box.
They will run a dual database for one year, and they've got
little form letters where they tell you that, and that you've
got a year to notify whomever you need to notify about it.
But, as far as them having an option to maintain that, I
don't believe that's --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't think they do, in
fact.
MR. SANDLIN: I don't think that's going to be the
case.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That question has come up a
number of times, and I think they are going toward the
city-style addressing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think one of the other
comments you might make on this, something that I notice has
happened in a couple areas is that -- and this is just for
information -- the Post Office is not going to let you put
your mailbox on a private road.
MR. SANDLIN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They will not deliver there. I~
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know some, you know, names have been given in subdivisions,
and they're private roads, and they expect mail to be
delivered there. And, if it's a private road, there is no
chance that they're going to go up to a private road and
deliver mail.
MR. SANDLIN: And, another I thing I might add, I
know I gave -- I think I've given copies to both newspapers
at one time or another, the letters we give out, whether it's
a temporary or permanent address. And, in big, bold letters
-- especially if it's temporary, because there are some areas
we're having to give temporary addresses to because there are
no road names; they just built a new road or whatever, and
eventually that will phase itself out. But, we let people
know, fn bold letters, that's a temporary address subject to
change, and that you need to contact your Postmaster
regarding that. Now, I know of some that have gone in to the
Postmaster and said, "T. Sandlin at 911 gave me 108 Northwest
Lime Lane and put the little stake in the ground for the
mailbox and says deliver." Well, T. gave the address, but T.
didn't tell nobody to do anything of the kind. I'm getting
thin-skinned on that one.
Let me skip to something right quick to show y'all where
we're going. And, I'm not going to get into any in-depth
discussion here. If anybody wants to discuss it, they can
come to my office and we'll discuss it briefly. And, I'm --
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there's no finger-pointing at anybody here. One of the
things -- one of my pet gripes -- personal pet gripes is we
see big government taking over more and more of our little
chunks of life, and the reason why is because, many times --
and this is just my opinion, and I'll -- I have the
background in this. Many times, the little governments
didn't get together and do what they need to do.
Addressing, road maintenance, road-naming in Texas is a
function of local government. I don't think anybody
questions that. And, I'm not saying it should be any other
way. Yes, I know some other states are different. I'm
sorry, we're in Texas; we're going to deal with Texas law.
But, Texas didn't do anything -- they had some bills in the
Legislature this year which did not go through, but there's
one -- and this is a rule-making project; this is not
anything that's come about yet, but it's nothing new. I've
been telling everybody about it for a while. There's a
rule-making project, 19203, Public Utility Commission.
Public Utility Commission and Railroad Commission are
some pretty powerful folks, whether we like to argue about it
or not. What they're trying do is get everybody -- they've
looked at the situation and said, Okay, we're still having
problems getting -- at the local level, getting the -- adding
street names, all this kind of stuff. We realize we're
moving from local to regional to data -- to national
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databases just because of all the different things going on.
And, three parts of that outline -- I know some of y'all got
it in e-mail. They're going to require the telephone
companies to comply with certain NINA standards, National
Emergency Number Association. And, some of those standards
are listed here. I'm not going to go into them; I'll talk
about them briefly.
But, Number 3 of this section -- and this is just a
portion; I don't even remember which section it is. Number 3
-- I'm going to read it. Unless -- this is part of Section
-- Project 19203 by the Public Utility Commission. Unless
otherwise waived by the Commission, a CTU -- that's a
certified telecommunications utility -- or local phone
provider or otherwise shall provision basic, local
telecommunications that includes bath wire line and wire
lease service, only if the service address of the account
conforms to a valid address in the Master Street Address
Guide.
Now, this hasn't gone into place yet, but, folks, if it
doesn't go in this session, I'll guarantee it's going to go
in next session. I had some input on it, and I wanted them
to give a date; say okay, by October 1st, 2001, you know, we
have to have break points 80 percent or whatever. From the
folks I talked to at the Commission, they said, "Look, we're
tired of seeing FCC and everybody else give out deadlines.
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We get to the deadlines, someone grants a waiver and
everything. Do you disagree that we need some impetus here
to get people off-center?" I said, "No, I don't disagree, we
-- we don't need to do this." I just thought it might be a
little rash at the stage some of our counties are in. I'm
just letting you know that stuff like this is coming down the
pike.
It also comes on the heels of -- if we're moving to a
statewide 911 database, it'll probably be divided up in six
regional databases, where all these various new, upcoming
telephone companies, they have to -- if they connect you with
911 service and data too, they can't all agree on how they're
going to transmit their data. And, to get the onus of having
all this equipment on top of little 911 here in Kerrville,
they came up with a plan, statewide. S.C.C. Communications
-- I believe it's out of Boulder, Colorado -- will be the
administrator of it. These phone companies, instead of me
having to deal with 15 phone companies, which I don't have to
yet, but will fairly soon, or more, and them having to deal
back with me on 911 database issues, they will -- if they
sign me up and I go to an alternative service, they'll get a
new address, put it in the -- in this database at S.C.C.;
S.C.C. will clean it up into NINA 3 format. And, they've
already adopted NINA 3 format, and that will be the way we
retrieve our data.
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COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Question, T.
MR. SANDLIN: Yes, sir?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The Master Street Address
Guide, is that also used by the Postal Service?
MR. SANDLIN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. So -- so, what this
does -- this rule, if it flies, would -- would tie together
911 system -- all telecommunications, as a matter of fact?
MR. SANDLIN: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: With the postal system, and
all addressing would be by the Master -- whatever's in the
Master Street Addressing -- pardon me. I think that's -- I'dl
like to -- not now, but I'd like to know more about that
Master Street
MR. SANDLIN: It's important that the Master Street
Guide -- and they're going to approach this two ways, by
county and by zip code. One of the questions I get asked all
the time, why don't we use zip codes for identifying regions?
We work from zip centroids. We're what's called a Regional
Statistical Area, R.S.A. M.S.A., Metropolitan Statistical
Areas, are San Antonio, Houston, all that. They're clearly
defined; they're not going anywhere. They have defined zip
boundaries, by the nature of their urban environments, within
San Antonio. Outside San Antonio in Bexar County, they work
from zip centroids too, which are subject to change. I don't
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know if it's on an annual basis; I can't speak for that, but
they can adjust zip codes if you wind up in a different rural
route due to a bunch of different things. It's coming down
the pike.
A main part of it is our guidelines with all these
different things that are going on. Our guidelines make us
compliant with all this stuff that's happening now and we
know is going to come down the pike. A matter of
implementing and getting from Point A to Point B is what
we're working on right now, but people want to know, why do
we have to change and why do we have to do different things?
We want to make sure the ambulance gets there. We want to
make sure the fire truck gets there, the police gets there,
that you can tell your aunt and uncle how to find your house
easily, et cetera et cetera. But, it's going to be forced on
us somewhat from above.
Master Street Address simply is a list of the street
names that gives the block ranges. Like, Main Street, it
will say left from 101 to 799, which is the valid street
address range, as determined by whomever the local agency is
that determines that -- us, in this case -- and it will say
right from 100 to 998, so that if someone comes in to the
telephone company and says, "I'm building a, you know, house
out here, I'm in the end of Main Street." "What's your
address?" "798." They look at the Master Street Address
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Guide and say, "Wait a minute, we only have valid address
ranges through the 500 block. Something's wrong here." That
is a somewhat of a built-in maintenance pop valve protection
for us, because we still, to this day, have people going out
and making up their addresses and reporting them and getting
them in.
We had a situation -- I'll be brief -- on this little
subdivision off 173. We did -- we'd assigned three addresses
out there in the last two years. Some more came in, they
were going to put another house in. They heard about all
this and they talked to their three neighbors. They knew
they had temporary addresses. We figured out what the real
addressing should be based on our guidelines. Well, the --
one of the phone company guys went to put the phone in,
called, and said, "Heck, something doesn't sound right here."
Said, "It's" -- you know, "this will be 120, and we're
between the 500 and 700 block. Just check and make sure
something didn't go wrong." Well, what I didn't know -- and
no one has to report this to 911. There's no law that says
they have to do it. Eleven other houses had been built out
there.
So, I sent one of my employees out there. She went to
everybody's door and knocked, said, "Where'd you get your
address?" Got it from the Post Office, the phone company.
We got various aspects of where they got it. Only thing I
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know is we didn't assign them, but we did go back and look at
it, and the addresses, whoever did assign them by these lots,
they're not picture-perfect, but we've got odd on one side,
even on the other. We're going to have some real compact,
short blocks, but -- probably based on 55-foot increments,
but they're logical in their flow. So, we went back to that
one lady and said, "We potentially have to change" -- you
know, whatever it was -- "15 or 16, and it's going to be some
time" -- or, "We'll let theirs be the permanent addressing,
and readjust yours to fit in it, put you in the 500 block,"
which was a call I made, and we went back and corrected that.
That's just to give y'all a little insight of what we run
into on a daily basis.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: T., let me ask a question,
and to try to keep as focused here as we can. We're talking
about implementation.
MR. SANDLIN: Right.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What kind -- what do you
need -- tell us what you need from us or from your Board or
whatever, to implement the guidelines that we have adopted
for the County. And, we hope that the cities and all of
those come along at the same time, obviously, but there may
be some difference in timing here. But, is there anything we
can do to help you in implementing the guidelines? Is there
any stumbling blocks that we can help you with? Tell us now
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and we can kick it around and see what we can do about it.
MR. SANDLIN: I've got something I'd like to put
before you, and this has to do mainly with streets, because
it doesn't do us a whole lot of good to go out there and
number streets if we don't have a name on it or it's a
duplicate road name. And, this is kind of a touchy subject,
and this my little idea. And, I think the Board would --
I've talked to a couple of them; I think they would agree
with it. That might help further things along.
Just as a matter of clarification, this is just
something I came up with a suggestion. Maybe if the
Commissioners Court could come up, like, with a blanket court
order, saying, okay -- and I don't know exactly how to word
it; y'all would have to word it from here. For all roads
within the geo-regions, as defined by metes and bounds, in
the north geo-region, all roads will henceforth go -- or add
the prefix "north" or whatever it needs to be, according to
the geo-region, and that's some language that will have to be
worked out.
And then, as part of that, and I -- I assume you can do
this; I don't know. I'm not trying to dictate to the
Commissioners Court, but maybe as a matter of blanket orders,
lust to kind of clarify that, which is already in the
guidelines, is include in that kind of a punch list, I guess,
maybe. And, what I would like to see us do, because I know
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this is a big issue with a lot of people, is that as part of
that order, as a matter of implementation of policy, dictate
that we're going to attack the duplicate road name roads, the
multiple names or confusing road names. Let's get those
signs correctly assigned first, getting in the right geo-
prefix in front of them and all that. And, also, we give
that same attention to newly named roads. There's no sense
in naming a road --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Put the work assigned --
MR. SANDLIN: -- Sandlin Road, knowing you're going
to have to come back a few months later and put the prefix in
front of it. Then the third step of that is a matter of
maintenance, whenever a sign needs to be replaced. What
comes to mind, we had an ambulance call out in Ingram Hills
the other day, and the street signs were gone. They're going
to have to be replaced. Well, let's go ahead and replace
them with the prefix. And then, other road signs, we'll
change those as -- as money becomes available, because we
don't want to -- I understand that this is a big expenditure
for the County and everyone else involved. And let everybody
know that, eventually -- I'm not saying 50 years down the
road, but eventually we'll get all the signs properly posted
with the proper geo-region.
This is very, very important for us in locating a --
people get a lot of cellphone calls, and particularly this
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time of year; hunting season`s coming upon us and people will
call in everything from D.W.I.'s to -- they'll see wrecks and
everything. And maybe the only clue they have as to their
location is they can find a road sign. I know that all this
magic about you pick up your cellphone, a satellite rings and
tells 911 exactly where you are, that's still some pie-in-
the-sky stuff, folks. It's not here yet.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: T., I have a question. If you
can maybe explain this, I think I talked to you once before
about it on the prefixes.
MR. SANDLIN: Mm-hmm?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand -- and, clearly,
any road that is a duplicate name, you need to have a prefix,
it needs to be on the street signs. There's no question
there. Why is there a need to put the prefix on roads that
there's not a duplicate? Because -- and my question is, I
mean, if you get a call -- say someone's out on Lane Valley.
There's no duplicate Lane Valley, I don`t believe, in the
county. And, they're on a cellphone; they call in and say,
"I'm on Lane Valley." As soon as it's on the computer
screen, a region will be in the computer. What difference
does it make if it's on the road sign?
MR. SANDLIN: Because maybe -- what -- what if the
computer's down? Heaven forbid, the computer's down. And,
the other thing we're trying to think about, this is how
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First Responders, ambulances, fire trucks and stuff respond.
And -- let me find a clear picture to show. It's just a
system of order. It's -- and I'm not -- you know, I've
answered this in some ways, people thought I was being a
smart aleck. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck. The same
reason that we post speed limit signs and post stripes on the
highways and everything; it gives some order to what we're
doing.
It's particularly helpful considering that we have one
EMS service serving the whole county -- and they serve it
pretty well; we're not here to knock EMS. And, if any of
y'all have been keeping up with what's been going on the last
few weeks -- I'm sorry, I don't where to get to not block
everybody -- we've had different calls where different fire
agencies or fire departments, whatever, have had to assist
other ones in their area. And, if you start taking the
county in chunks as regionalization, much as other states and
counties use their urban codes and stuff, if you're a First
Responder -- or let's say that you're leaving on an ambulance
run from Kerrville, and the first thing you know is you're
going to the northwest region for sure. It sets a -- it's a
deductive reasoning thing. You're taking the big picture
down smaller. If you know it's in the northwest region, you
know generally where you're going already. You're already
planning in your mind what's going to go on. You may know
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people in the northwest region you may need to contact to get
them rolling to help you or different things. It's just a
system of order. And, on the administrative side, the sooner
we get this done -- because the guidelines say that each one
of these can -- I'm not saying they do, but each one of these
could have a Main Street.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with the need for the
geo-region. I'm -- I just don't understand why the
geo-region has to be on the street sign. That's what I don't
understand.
MR. SANDLIN: Because, thinking of a First
Responder's mind -- and that's what this is primarily all
about -- if you get dispatched to --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, as soon as it gets
dispatched, it's on the computer and it will be --
MR. SANDLIN: He does haven't the computer with
him. He may be responding from his house.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hut the dispatcher has a
computer.
MR. SANDLIN: But now we`re tying up a dispatcher
to give a single Responder directions. It gets complicated
kind of fast. Let's say we've got 19 Responders coming from
different areas, and they're relying on the dispatcher to
talk them into where that area is. Whatever -- they had to
leave the store, they had to leave their home or whatever and
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head for this fire, whatever this calamity is. And, part of
the thing is -- is they don't have time to be sitting there
juggling a map while they're riding along. And, if they know
by the geo-region what area they're in and they've also been
told that it's -- I don't know, Southwest Watusi Lane, when
they get out there, it's marked better far them. And,
remember --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Every road in the region is
going to be southwest. I -- maybe I'm just being -- I just
don't --
MR. TEER: We've heard -- we kind of hear why we
ought to be doing this. Maybe there's something that we
haven't thought of. What would be the reason to not do it,
other than cost of replacing signs?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, it's cost.
MR. TEER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's the dollar.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I think that what we can get to is,
T. outlined for us a priority system, basically, of road
signs. And, I think we could place at the bottom of the
priority, and actually replace those only when they needed
replacing because they were stolen or bent, single-name
roads, so that ultimately they'll all get done when they get
replaced because some kid takes them or something; some, you
know, 18-wheeler takes them out. Then we can put the prefix
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on them. But, we can establish that priority where we don't
go out and allocate dollars to change a prefix.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: T., you and I have talked
about a priority list a little bit before, and I think that
provides a good basis far approaching the signage problem.
And, of course, we'll have to discuss this in the Court and
we'll have to coordinate with the 911 Board and T. to make
sure that we meet all the 911 requirements eventually. But,
it may be a while before we get all of those, just as -- as
the Judge is saying.
MR. SANDLIN: It may be two or three years,
realistically, as we get addressing and stuff going. And,
what I want to emphasize to people is, at least 911 -- I
mean, none of this is happening fast enough to suit me, but
at the same time, I don't want to go so fast I trip myself or
trip my Board or trip y'all. We do want to stay orderly on
this. But, we set our priorities, and this -- this is going
to take a while; it's not going to happen overnight.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me just say, I think if
-- if we can approach a prioritized method of doing the
signage, we can solve our -- our fiscal problem, because we
can stretch it, and -- and do primarily as -- as has been
mentioned; replace those signs that need to be replaced,
almost in their normal flow. Now, we don't have to replace
every sign every three years by any stretch of the
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imagination, but -- but we could probably see our way clear
on taking on a few signs each year that don't need to be
replaced, replace all the ones that do need it. And, we
could probably stretch this out into a reasonable program.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's solving the financial
side of it, I think, by doing, you know, what T. suggested
and what you and the Judge mentioned. On the other side of
it, I guess the other concern is not a financial concern I
have. It -- well, two. One is, it lust seems to me an
unnecessary addition to the street names; it's just making
the street names longer. And the other issue is, because I
guess a large -- the City of Kerrville -- whether the City of
Kerrville goes -- does or doesn't go along with that would
affect that issue a little bit, because a lot of roads start
in the city of Kerrville ar qo through the city of Kerrville.
So, you're going to have, you know, a road that goes --
starts on the east of Kerrville, goes through Kerrville, and
goes out, and it's going to be -- have a geo-prefix, and in
some areas, possibly, just -- you know, from what Glenn Brown
told me, I -- he didn't think the City -- they didn't like
the prefix idea.
MR. SANDLIN: Excuse me7
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glenn Brown told me that at one
point. I know there's three representatives from the City
here. I haven't talked to Glenn in a long time about that.
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That's -- and so I don't know where the City's standpoint is
on this whole policy. But, if they weren't -- I'd say it
seems confusing to me, really, more than anything else. It's
just a convenience to the public. If there's a great benefit
to doing it, sure. I don't -- doesn't make sense to me that
it's a great benefit, because if it's going to go through a
dispatcher, it's going to be pulled up on a screen, and it's
going to be -- easily be said, northwest area at that point.
Whether it's on the street signs, to me, doesn't help, except
fox the duplicate names. Duplicate names clearly have to
have an prefix.
MR. SANDLIN: You`ve got so much going on, I
understand. I come from the big three: Fire, Police, and
EMS. Done them all. The only thing I'm currently not
certified in is as an EMT; I let it expire. Been there, done
that, from the dispatch end to the response end to the
supervisor's end. And, a lot of times, when you're out
there, particularly in a car chase, or you're trying to get
somewhere in a hurry or anything, any visual clues you have
are extremely beneficial. And, that's hard to translate
sometimes to the general public, who hasn't been in this
situation.
The only -- the other thing that bothers me was the
statement you made about Glenn Brown. One of the reasons we
came up with the geo-regions was specifically for the city ofl

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Kerrville and the other cities, so that we could have some
relief on the multiple duplicate names with, again, the
cities. And, by modifying with the prefix, that would solve
some of that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: On duplicates. I have not
talked to Glenn -- it was only -- it was probably two months
ago. Dane?
MR. TUNE: T., the problem the City's going to run
into is going to a problem of the citizens, once they find
out they're going to have to redo all those -- their checks,
to redo all their stationery and all those things. I think
that's one of the places Glenn was coming from. I don't
think the councilman's here. You know, it hasn't gotten that
far in our process, but we're definitely going to have
concerns. I mean, it goes back to the cost factor and
citizens all having to change their addresses, so I lust
think we just feel like, you know, we're probably going to
get the feedback on that. And, if it isn't absolutely
necessary, that would be something we certainly would want to
look into. If it is, obviously, it's going to take -- it's
something I guess we have to do, but I think -- I think
that's probably where Glenn was coming from. We've had those
discussions, and our question was, is this -- it's the
question you had a minute ago. Is this necessary, that all
our citizens are going to have to change streets and change
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all their personal checks and so on, and their addresses.
MR. SANDLIN: It's kind of as necessary as an area
code change. We're trying to think from what's right here in
front of us down in the future, particularly when it comes to
mobile communications and a few other things; and, without
getting into the long, detailed stuff, this will solve some
of our future problems, too. Like I said, I understand that
everything can't be whisk-changed overnight, but it's very
important.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me just add something,
that -- that we've hit on this earlier, but we're not
answering the question of whether it's really necessary or
not. On that issue, that's the reason that the Post Office
Department gives you a year after any address change like
this. They will give you one year that you can receive mail
at either address; it will still come to your mailbox or be
delivered to your house or whatever. So, with the thought
that, generally, in a year's time, businesses change -- will
buy new letterhead, people will have to get new checks,
unless they don't have to write many checks -- as a matter of
fact, your -- your bank will accept it as long as the bank
number is correct on the check. But -- I found that out when
I had this happen to me -- had the name -- had the address
change happen to me in Houston several years ago. But --
but, there are provisions; they try to soften that. The Post
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Office -- what I'm saying is, is that's probably not enough
reason, in my mind, not to do it.
Jonathan's asking a great question, in that if it's not
really necessary, maybe we want to review that. But, if we
take this prioritized view, we've got a little time that we
can evaluate that and continue to work with T. and the 911
Board, and if this is something that we can get relief on in
that area that makes sense, that doesn't impact adversely the
-- the ability to provide emergency services, then maybe we
can make some -- maybe we can make some accommodation there
to not put it on all the street signs. We'll have some time.
But, I think what we need to know is, how do we negate
the process going in? And, if that one's one that I think we
can defer far now, then let's make sure that we're doing
everything we can do get to Step 1, get the duplicates taken
care of. Let's get the process going where we can get the
names and numbering under way, and later on we can spend a
little more time.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I agree
MR. SANDLIN: One thing -- and let me address City
folks that are here, too, and make it abundantly clear to
everybody. I wonder if I have my little drawing -- well,
anyway, whenever you see these little maps that I hold up
like this one -- there's Ingram, there's Kerrville, and
there's Center Point -- they get lust as much attention from
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911 as anybody else, okay? We're not going to pick -- this
isn't county against city, city against city, or anything
like that kind of stuff. I don't care where you live; if
you're within the area I'm responsible for, it's my job to
see that you get the best 911 service, regardless of whether
you're in or out of the city limits. So, I want to make that
perfectly clear.
There are some issues that it would be most helpful --
let me give you two quick examples. And, this is one that
came up. Nothing bad came of it; it wasn't anything like
that. It was just a mix-up, and I can say this one because
they are public; they -- they advertise their address. Elks
Lodge. Anybody know the address of 2081 Junction Highway?
Guess where 2081 is physically located? It's in the 1900
block. That's a little confusing out on Junction Highway.
We need to work west on this Route 1. We're working on HC-1,
and we have 1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, and 1400 intermixed.
We ran into a situation today where we need to fix up
some addresses out at the Ag Barn. I don't know where that
address came from; didn't come from 911, and I don't know
where it came from, but the address they've been using is
5100 San Antonio Highway. Mooney -- as far as we know, and
from all the map books I went by when I was a policeman,
Mooney's in the 5000 block. Any of that change? So, the
Post Office says something's -- you know, they need to --
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y'all have put some other buildings out there; we need to
straighten it up. We've run into that in a couple other
areas, too.
What I need, so that we maintain continuity, is I need
to know from somebody in the City -- and I know you're in
between Planners or whatever's going on with that. At some
point, we need to know -- this block-ranging stuff, without
getting technical, knowing where the blocks are is very, very
important to a bunch of different systems, not just 911.
But, I need someone from the City, if they're going to -- I
grabbed the wrong chart again. I'll use this one. Where do
y'all end? What are your blocks here? When we go out
Junction Highway, West Highway 27, whatever, or we head out
27 East, what are the block ranges so that we don't wind up
with the 5000 block mixed in with 3000 block and people
jumping on me saying, "Why can't you provide us with an
address farther down here in a more permanent status?"
We have a lot out by Comfort, out by 27 East right now,
that I can just arbitrarily say, boom, I draw a line five
miles from Mooney and say we're going to start at the 6000
block, but then what if the City -- and I'm not saying
they're going to, don't get me wrong, but what if the City
comes back in later and says, wait a minute, we want -- where
you drew the line, we figured aut this needs to be the 8000
block, and we're going to address backwards from that. And,
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this has happened in some cities. It hasn't happened here,
but this has happened; it`s caused some lawsuits where, all
of a sudden, across that line -- and it`s confusing the First
Responders.
The people in Canyon Springs are going to be very
unhappy with me in a little while. They numbered from the
back of Canyon Springs out to the road, out to Highway 39,
which is just backwards to what it needs to be for First
Responders, and people constantly get confused over that.
What's my recommendation going to be on that?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Every number is going to be
changed.
MR. SANDLIN: It's going to straighten up, because
it's very important. Some of those people have -- are very
concerned in certain areas about that ambulance being able to
get there. The more you get away from the center of
Kerrville, the more they're concerned about that. And,
there's some of those addresses we're addressing that's not
in, probably, the right order. We're addressing the address
issue. Does that make sense? And, we're getting there.
MR. ZACHARY: Focusing --
MR. SANDLIN: We've got a lot of public support.
People -- and some of these subdivisions have great
homeowners associations -- have come forward and we've given
them where we have it and all, where we have data maps, the
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parcels that show where their property is. They've gone out
there and knocked on doors. Some of them have figured out,
here's the guidelines, here's what we think the addressing
ought to be, or here`s a couple we need to change, and
they've been wonderful.
~--
Our GPS system is down right now till we get the rest of
the Y2K fix. For those of you that don't know, that hit last
-- a week ago Saturday for -- if you're doing GPS; Y2K bit
us. We're going to fix -- get that fixed. Let me point one
thing out. I don't know how clear this is. All these little
blue squares, those are data parcels. That's actual tracts
of land with information behind it explaining who owns it,
and we can look at the area and see if there's a house there,
so that when we do find these little spots -- if you can see
them, these houses, how we found -- we may not have any
information on them; we found them in the air, on the ground
or whatever, and if they fall into those little blocks, we
have a starting point. We can look it up and say, hey, that
property is listed as T. Sandlin. That may be his house.
Let's go look. Go knock on the door and, sure enough, it is,
and, boom, we've got an easy one done.
My only point I'm trying to -- trying to illustrate here
is, look at all the holes where we don't have any information
to deal with. Yes, I know we should have it, lust like
Houston and San Antonio and everybody else, but we don't.
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The folks at KCAD, Central Appraisal District, have been
busting their buns to help us on this, and they're doing it
just as far as they can. We're doing what portion of it we
can, and tying in cadastral data to it, so that when we do
find a house out there -- we've been out there a couple of
times. Maybe they work in San Antonio, and we leave them a
little notice that they check and say, yes, I'm so-and-so,
and we're able to provide them some of that addressing.
So, in some of the areas, we're building the database as
we can. It doesn't exist, and we're building it. And, we're
doing -- if you -- if I'd showed you this a year ago, we'd
have had a couple little spots around here. So, it's getting
done, but some of this is just time-consuming. That's not
offered up as an excuse or anything, just showing you that we
are tracking on and making progress on this situation.
JUDGE HENNEKE: What I want to hear is the
implementation -- easy for me to say -- plan and schedule on
duplicate roads and new roads. I mean, we're -- these
Commissioners in the precincts are inundated with
subdivisions. People are out there marking off lots, you
know, as fast as they can buy chalk and string.
MR. SANDLIN: Yes, I do know.
JUDGE HENNEKE: And, I'd like to know what the plan
is for, one, addressing the duplicate road names and a
timetable, and secondary, what's happening with new road
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names, as far as subdivisions are concerned? 'Cause I'm a
bit confused right now. I know we have guidelines, but are
they actually being implemented?
MR. SANDLIN: Yes, sir.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Are the developers coming to you
with the recommended road names, and you're saying yea or
nay? And, if that's happening, then are they -- how are they
getting forwarded to the Court for official approval?
MR. SANDLIN: On the plats.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay.
MR. SANDLIN: That's been just because we were
trying to implement this as we've got them used to it,
getting more of them used to it, letting them know what the
rules were and everything; kind of a learning curve there.
Now we're telling them -- and we, quite frankly, haven't had
a lot of that in the last few weeks. We've got a couple that
have gone out for concept plan that I don't know -- I don't
even know if they're ready to present to you, but they wanted
to name the roads. We sent these out, they filled them in,
they came back to me. And, they're still working. They may
want to change a road name or two. And, I said, "As soon as
you know what you want so that I can say yes or no, it meets
the guidelines, then I will send it over here to y'all."
JUDGE HENNEKE: So, your sign-off on the plat
indicates that the road names satisfy the guidelines?
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MR. SANDLIN: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE HENNEKE: My sign-off, after the Court votes
on it and everyone else signs on it, operates to legally
approve the name for the that subdivision?
MR. SANDLIN: Yes, sir.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. What about duplicate road
names?
MR. SANDLIN: That's something I would -- we
probably, I think, finished yesterday. We went through and
scoured our -- our graphical databases one more time, because
since the guidelines have been adopted -- which they've been
adopted by Ingram, Center Point, and the County -- we've had
a lot of people coming in -- I mean, they've brought me old,
rolled-up maps, and they want to question, for instance --
and this one's died down now, don't worry about it, but there
was a lot of flurry about Forgason Road. How did River View
Road or River Road in Canyon Springs ever go from Forgason to
River Road? I don't know.
That brings up another question. If we know that we've
got plats that show that as Forgason Road, but out there it`s
got the green sign that says "River Road," how do y'all want
me to report that to y'all? I can say, "Okay, it's posted as
River Road, but all of our plats say Forgason Road." I have
been able to -- at one time, about a year ago, we went back
through the court records. The court personnel, County
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Clerk's office, helped us a lot. I believe we were able tc
go back to, I think, 1986, and look through Commissioners
Court orders where some road-naming stuff had changed like
that. Prior to that, if that road got posted in the '40's,
if it got posted in the '60's, '70's or whatever, I don't
know. The question comes to me, what's the legal name of
that road?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Aren't --
MR. TEER: Have any of them been changed or
confirmed at this point? The duplicates?
MR. SANDLIN: Mm-hmm. We've been preparing a --
trying to prepare our master list that we want to present to
you, but I've been scrubbing and going through because I
don't want something popping up that we show a duplicate
that's not a duplicate, or we miss something.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe currently -- and we
have Road and Bridge here today -- in 1997 we went to the
unit system. Were not all the roads in one Court order named
at that point?
MS. HARDIN: Yes. Buster gave us that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you speak up?
MR. ODOM: The answer is yes, we have a list. We
even have lists that go back into the '50's, in some cases.
So, we -- we check off those old lists -- old lists, and then
the current one from '86, '87, that's the one that the Court
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adopted those roads that they maintain.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Only maintain.
MR. ODOM: By a system we maintain thereafter.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, there's -- that '87 list is
all the County-maintained roads; that's the names, 'cause
that was done by the Court order, period.
MR. SANDLIN: That's what I need to know, and they
-- Road and Bridge has given me that list. I just -- when
people come in, I need to know, you know, so I can tell them.
And that was a simple fix on that.
MR. JOHNSTON: There's been subdivisions since
then.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me restate the Judge's
question lust a little bit. On duplicate road names, how
long do you think it would take you to get us a list with the
name changes that we could implement as a single court order?
And, of course, if we miss some, we'll go back and catch them
up later. But, how -- what kind of timing do you see for
that, so we take care of the duplicates first?
MR. SANDLIN: I'm -- I can --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: In accordance with the
guidelines.
MR. SANDLIN:	Right.	I'm	just	trying to	qet	the
timing straight in my -	- what	I've	got to	do these	next	few
days.
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COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, let me ask this
question, too. About how many duplicate road names do we
have, roughly? Just -- you don't have to --
MR. SANDLIN: Okay. With the implementation --
proper implementation of the guidelines -- and, remember,
y'all have seen my little chart, 588 known road names. With
proper implementation of the geo-regions, we drop that down
to about 90.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So -- about 90. So, it
means that --
MR. SANDLIN: If the -- when the -- when we --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right.
MR. SANDLIN: Just by applying the prefix to some
of them, we drop that name list way, way down.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, okay. So -- and about
how long would it take you to get us a scrubbed-down list
with the recommended name changes where -- if any of those
are required.
MR. SANDLIN: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I've got one I want to ask
you about, West Road. What if you have Northwest west?
MR. SANDLIN: I know, that's one of those.
MR. RUSSUM: That's a good one.
MR. SANDLIN: Or South Street or North Street.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Some of those can be a
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little confusing, too, but name changes and duplicates -- the
duplicate problem, how long do you think it would take you to
qet that to us? Because it seems like, to me, we're at a
paint where we can spring on that.
MR. SANDLIN: After we get back from the Labor Day
holidays, that week I'll be able to -- the next two or three
days, I've got engineers, and most of my people are going to
be with me over at the PSAP doing the final Y2K thing -- I
hope the final Y2K.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, we're talking about
maybe by the end of the month?
MR. SANDLIN: It will be before then.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You will have a list?
MR. SANDLIN: I'll give you a list you can look at
now, as far as what those those road names -- if it's merely
that it needs to be fixed, we can provide you that almost
immediately.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah.
MR. SANDLIN: That's something that --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's what I'm saying. We
need to jump on this.
MR. SANDLIN: Let's see, we have two Wallace Roads
within the geo-region. One of those -- we have Wallace Road
going around there, which separates in the middle, goes off
this way; that's called Wallace Road, too. Something needs
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to change there. That confuses the First Responders.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. SANDLIN: Those situations I can point out to
you, and then --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: With the recommended change
-- name change, and -- okay.
MR. RUSSUM: To clarify the case -- question I keep
thinking about, I live out in -- in River Hill on Rock Creek
Road, okay? So, what's so burdensome about me calling it
Rock Creek Road South? For the potential that somebody will
call another road Rock Creek in the future and it will be
north? I repeat, what is so burdensome about me putting on
my address, I'm Rock Creek Road South? On that potential --
fox the potential that somebody would later call a Rock Creek
Road way out north somewhere?
MR. SANDLIN: That's part of the answer. Getting
back to Jonathan's question, because we still have about
1,900 roads -- between 1,200 and 1,900; until I can get
behind the locked gate and see how far the house is down the
raod, between 1,200 and 1,900 roads that are going to need
names. And, the naming system, unless you start getting into
real weird road names, you start exhausting -- as many
streets as we have or roads we have in Kerr County, you start
exhausting your -- your possible names. Whereas, the
geo-region gives us some relief on that. Yes, you can have a~
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MR. RUSSUM: Oh, I see what you're saying.
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MR. SANDLIN: Yeah. It gives us some relief there,
because that's one thing that we're working on right now. We
have a lot of these road name change forms, whatever we're
going to call them. A lot of those have gone out of my
office in the last few weeks. I haven't gotten a lot back.
One of the problems that I've been -- just an informational
item -- that I've run into a lot is where someone has -- and
let's say this road -- whatever this road is, and it's -- 14
people live along that road. And this isn't -- you know.
Anyway, 14 people, and these three people right here come in.
They come in, get a road name petition and everything, come
in and say, "We want to name this" -- or "We want to change
this road," whatever, "but we want this to be Watusi Lane."
So, okay. "Y'all are the only property owners along that
road?" "Well... but, the rest of them don't care."
And, according to the guidelines, like we all adopted,
those other people on that road have a say, too. I had one
in my office Tuesday, very upset. She and some friends had
decided to name this road such-and-such, but they didn't want
to go talk to the other people up there because they wanted
to name it another road. That's just a delay. And that's --
that's something I'm having to deal with almost on a daily
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basis. So, when people say, "What's taking so long?" it's
not that we're delaying, it`s not the Commissioners delaying,
it's not the 911 Board delaying. It's I'm having to deal
with some human nature here, too.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Chuck, you had a question?
CHIEF DICKERSON: Yeah. T., when do we want to
stay away from too many Rock Creeks? If we have Rock Creek
Northwest, Rock Creek Southwest, and a guy's on his cellphone
out there, he's been shot, and he's barely audible and he's
telling us Rock Creek. And they catch a west, but they don't
catch north or south --
MR. SANDLIN: That's why we hope, with the prefix
in front of it -- CABCO and some other people did some
studies, and that`s why we put it in as a prefix rather than
as a suffix, because suffixes tend to get dropped very
easily. It's like most people, when you say 700 Main. More
and more people are getting used to saying 700 Main Street,
but the Post Office still gets a lot of 700 Main, just like
we used to get it at 600 Main. They didn't put the street on
there. But, if you've got a prefix on it, people don't drop
it. And there, partially, the reason we're doing this was to
give relief to the cities so that there wouldn't be a
monumental amount of road name changes. If we don't go
through with the prefix for now and for future road names and
things, we're going to be constantly battling road names and
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making sure that there's no duplicate stuff, and we'll be
looking at a tremendous amount of roads that need to be
changed. And, you know, we're just trying to get some relief
there.
CHIEF DICKERSON: I know. I hear officers getting
calls to old Walmart, new Walmart, and a lot of times the
only thing that comes out is Walmart
MR. SANDLIN: It's just like --
CHIEF DICKERSON: You've got -- and that's five
minutes away from where he should be, and so --
MR. SANDLIN: Some of those things we're going to
have to deal with, like someone writes down on their report,
"600 block, Highway 16 South" when the other guy wrote on his
report, "600 block, Sidney Baker South." There we get into
the multi-name deal.
JUDGE HENNEKE: 4uestion right here.
AUDIENCE: Why can't we have a system similar to
what's used in auto transportation -- I belong to the Good
Sam Movement. Out on the road, the guy who's listening to us
is in another state entirely, but he wants to know exactly
where we are so he can send a trucker out. They don't go
through northeast, southeast. They say, "I'm at a certain
street in a certain town in a certain county, and the
telephone number I'm calling from is so-and-so." And, they
can use that information to spot exactly where you are.
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MR. SANDLIN: And that works when you're in a calm
situation and you have time to do it. Now, we've got a --
AUDIENCE: All right. Can't -- can't the 911
operator enforce a set -- "Do you know what street you're
in?" or do you -- "You're in Oak Street. Is that the one in
Ingram? Is that the one in Green Hills?"
JUDGE HENNEKE: Not when you have a --
AUDIENCE: Why not?
JUDGE HENNEKE: When you have a 5-year-old child
who picks up the phone because their father's had a heart
attack, you're not going to be able to get that information
out of that child. Zf it's in the computer where that
telephone is, then you -- then the 911 dispatcher can
dispatch immediately to the correct location. You can't rely
on verbal communication --
MR. RUSSUM: Without the child even saying
anything.
JUDGE HENNEKE: -- when you're in an emergency
situation. That's the whole basis of the system. It's the
basis of a mandate from the federal government, the state
government, that you have to have in your system proper
identification that comes up instantaneously and provides
the proper information to the police, to the 911, to the
fire, so they can provide the services. You can't rely on
somebody's --
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AUDIENCE: It takes about 30 seconds to do that,
and 30 seconds spent there is better spent that way than
running all around the country.
MR. SANDLIN: Can I give you a real, live example?
Some people from out of town call in. They call in a motor
vehicle wreck and say it's two miles west of Kerrville on the
main road. Two miles west of Kerrville that's all the
information they have. They're on a cellphone, and they hang
up. Well, people start responding, naturally, to -- I don't
care if you want to call it Junction Highway, Ingram Highway,
Highway 27 West, Ingram Highway, 27 East, whatever you want
to call that multi-named highway. We had an idea where to
go.
They frantically call back, "We're sorry, we're two
miles west of Ingram on the main road." This is a real call,
only I won't use any names. This is a real call. "Get some
help out here now, this guy's dying, bad motor vehicle
wreck." Well, I just happened to be in Ingram, so I swing
out -- one unit goes out 27, I head out 39. We don't see
r
anything. The next call we get, same person. "I'm sorry" --
he's out of breath. What's going on? He has run down to the
nearest past office. Hunt, Texas. The wreck is two miles
from Hunt, Texas. And this all took quite a time.
Naturally, I drive up there, because it's about 100
yards past my house. We get up there and, of course, the
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ambulance dutifully gets there, and, of course, I listen for
two weeks about how long it took the ambulance to get there
because we were responding to the call; it's a cellular call.
We don't have magic satellites that tell you where it was.
That's a real, live example where that man didn't know the
county he was in or city; he was in a panic because his
friend was under a motorcycle bleeding. And, it wasn't that
bad; he had a broken leg, went home the next day. But, we
didn't know that at the time.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we have any more questions or
comments? Larry, anything else?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question. On the
prefix, one more time, and I keep -- sorry. Do we use the --
or what I see right now going around the county is the little
letters going in front on street signs. Every once in a
while, I'll see a road crew putting up little decals, I
guess, to designate the north, east, south, west, whatever.
If it's important enough that we change all the names, they
should get that prefix visible, to me. We need to make them
-- I mean, I can't even read them, they're so small on some
of the signs. So -- I mean, so if it's important enough that
we have to do that, which I don't like to do in the first
place, but if we do, we need to do it so that it's truly
legible, so that someone who's calling in knows that they're
-- that they have to say East Lane Valley or West Main or
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Northwest Main.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Can I say something about
that?
MR. ZACHARY: It's the same size letter as the --
MS. HARDIN: The guideline has the size on it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Has the size on it.
MS. HARDIN: Doesn't it say 2 inches for it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, 2 inches is littler.
Isn't it littler?
MR. ODOM: Four inches for the letters, 2 inches
for the direction.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The prefix is smaller than the
letters, under the guidelines, and the 2-inch letter is
pretty hard to read. You`re not going to visually catch that
when you drive by a street sign if it's an emergency. You're
going to see the name and --
JUDGE HENNEKE: That's probably a fault in the
guidelines.

COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I mean, if we get -- do
what I don't want to do, might as well do it right.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We can make those the same
size as the --
MR. SANDLIN: Should be a minimum of 6 inches high,
lettering. You should be 9 inches high for all road name
elements, and 2-inch letters indicating the block range of
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the road should be affixed to the placard.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That -- yeah, that's the
block range.
MR. SANDLIN: That's M.U.T.C.D. standard. But, the
thing that gets me -- Mr. Odom can probably answer this
better than I. I received an a-mail a few weeks ago. They
just sent it out to everybody, not just me, as a blanket
e-mail, that there are some standards in M.U.T.C.D. that are
changing for the road signs, as far as the height and width
of the letters. They're going to have to increase to conform
with M.U.T.C.D.
MR. ODOM: We've been doing it for two years to
replace them. The cone of vision has to be higher, because
we're all -- baby-boomers and everybody else are getting old
and can't see. Basically, what we've done is to go to the
9-foot poles instead of the 7.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you have to use a letter or
can you spell out the word? I mean, does it have to be,
like, E. Lane Valley, or could --
MR. SANDLIN: To conform with all these various
databases, it needs to be just the single letter.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just the letter.
MR. SANDLIN: Post offices prefer it, Census Bureau
and all these other people we're dealing with.
MR. ODOM: And there may be some changes in the
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future with the size of the signs, because we're only
directed -- M.U.T.C.D. basically implies that we go with a
29-inch sign, and they're talking about, because of the older
population as America gets older, that we're going to a
30-inch sign, so that will even change my poles and
everything else. But, we were advised that what we do now is
start changing them. As we change the poles, we have to have
7 foot to the bottom of the sign, and then that 2 foot makes
a 9-foot pole.
MR. SANDLIN: One thing I would ask, if I could, is
how would -- as these things start rolling in, as they're --
as I presume they're going to roll in, these road name
changes and everything, what I would prefer to do is, once
we've done whatever we need to do to them, is bring them over
here and give them to Thea here, ox somebody can just sign
for them. And, whether it be -- if I get one this month or
whether I get 200 this month, bring these road name request
changes to -- to y'all, and then let y'all decide whether
you're going to handle 10 at the next meeting or -- or
whatever. But, I would rather, once we've got our deal, get
them over here to you, and particularly make sure I notify
the individual Commissioner so that you've got a heads-up
that there's a road name change needed in your precinct or
something like that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that would be real
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helpful. I think the prefix ones are easy.
MR. SANDLIN: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, those are only solved by
the prefix. I think I'd just go -- I mean, the Commissioner
ought to be able to work with those people in those areas.
MR. SANDLIN: That's what my --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And I think what would be a
big help, so that we don't end up with a -- with confusion,
would be if we could get -- if we got on those ones where
we're having a real name change, not just adding --
MR. SANDLIN: A prefix, but a real name change.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Real name change, is that we
need something -- and maybe we could work this down to a form
so that -- do it in a hurry and get them to us, just a form.
Here's what Road A is named and here's what Road B is named
and, according to the guidelines, there's so many points for
this one and so many points for that one. This is the one
that has to be changed. And, the recommendation of the
homeowners was -- or the landowners on that road, that's
going to be changed to so-and-so, and that's in conformance
with our guidelines, and that's the way we get it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's a name change right
there.
MR. SANDLIN: Did you ever sign it and get it back
to me?
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I have not.
MR. SANDLIN: I'll let you give an example, there's
one where we worked it up. And, whenever I have the
information, I will -- I don't know if we did it on this one.
I think I -- didn't I give you a little picture on the back?
Yeah. We'll try to give you a little picture on the back.
COMMI33IONER GRIFFIN: If we need it in a form
where it can be approved, we don't need to go -- what I'm
saying is, don't get it to us at a point where we need to go
negotiate a name. We need the name proposed that is in
conformance with the guidelines.
MR. SANDLIN: On private road names, according to
the guidelines, we can do that. According -- but on these,
sure enough, public access roads, it's a little bit -- little
bit different. The Commissioners, I thought, wanted more
active participation in determining that from their own --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, one of the first ways
I think we do that is that -- is that when we post that
agenda item, I think we would have to list all the -- we're
having real name changes, so we're going to list the roads
that are going to be changed so the public is aware of it.
MR. SANDLIN: Right.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We need to try to publicize
so that they can come in and -- to the Court and vent their
spleen, or whatever they've got to do. But, you know, the i
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fact is, we need to get closure on these things. We've got
to know what the name of the road is, you know, and then what
do we want to name it. ~
MR. SANDLIN: Are you wanting 911 to do the ~
property owner contacts on those, too?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, isn't that the way
it's sort of set up now? I mean, if I --
MR. SANDLIN: Remember, we talked about splitting
it; we would try to take the burden of the private access
roads and the Commissioner would take more of the burden on
the public access roads, as far as notification and stuff? I
mean, we'll do anything we can, but the more laden -- I've
probably got one of the smallest staffs here.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't know. I'd like to
hear from the other members.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think if you give us the,
roughly, 90 names, let's us see how they fall. If they're
all in Larry's area, that would be great.
MR. SANDLIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, okay, that's --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Get us the list, let us see how
the problem is -- where it is and how it's spread out.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's what we need in a
hurry, I think, is a list of the duplicate names, and see --
MR. JOHNSTON: What about the name changes on
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non-County-maintained roads? Who's going to do that?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's what's you were just
saying, right? That on the private --
MR. SANDLIN: On private access roads, as we define
them in the guidelines.
MR. ODOM: He's using the word "public" as it's
defined. Open to the public doesn't mean it's necessarily
County-maintained.
MR. SANDLIN: Right.
MR. ODOM: But it's a public access --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We have most of those roads
named, don't we? Those that are not County-maintained?
MR. ODOM: If they intersect on a County-maintained
road, then, in most cases, we have those signs there, or
should.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, they have a name. They
may not have a sign, but they've got a name.
MS. HARDIN: Not necessarily -- well, yeah, they
would. They'd have a platted name.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: They'd have a platted name,
so the road has a name, even though it's not County-
maintained.
MR. ODOM: That's right.
MR. SANDLIN: But, Commissioners Courts -- I think
we've established this time and time again through court
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rulings and -- and State court rulings, Attorney General's
opinions, and everything. Commissioners Courts have final
authority over all roads within their jurisdiction. That's
clearly stated. And, it goes back to the old Exxon case of
1925. We don't need to rehash that. Problem roads in the
west geo-region, which doesn't necessarily encompass -- here,
I've brought y'all these just to show you how pretty our new
printer will go. There's geo-regions, voter precincts.
These are suitable for framing, guys, which I was able to
produce these three or four months ago.
There's Commissioners' precincts, and if y'all are
interested, this was just a little deal to show you what's
available. This is a digital elevation model with the
streets overlaid. It doesn't really have anything to do
with 911, but we have this available, so if you've got a
subdivision where you're talking about O.S.S.F. standards and
stuff like that, we've got that data we can bring you, pop it
up on the computer screen, you can look at it and get an idea
where the high spots and low spots are and all that. That's
not our bailiwick, but that's just the kind of stuff that's
available.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: T., where did you get your
Commissioners' boundaries? Where's that from?
MR. SANDLIN: That's based on property --
precinct boundaries, as your predecessor explained to me.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's not right.
MR. SANDLIN: Is it not right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You've got me in my correct
precinct and my sister, who lives right next door on the
other side of the road -- anyway, it's not a big deal.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: This is the precinct. Is
this right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is all of my property
right there, and it's got me in two precincts. But,
anyway --
MR. SANDLIN: 202 precinct. This is what was
provided to me.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a minor deal. But,
that's --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's done by metes and
bounds, correct?
(Discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You don't live in your
precinct?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I do. My sister doesn't.
AUDIENCE: Are you aware of Project Identity that
happened in 1979?
JUDGE HENNEKE: No.
AUDIENCE: You have the map for Project Identity?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Buster, you're the one that's been
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around here longest.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I didn't hear the question.
AUDIENCE: Project Identity in 1974, when Rural
Route 1 was changed over from box numbers to residential
addresses, the whole route, which was the main route in Kerr
County.
MR. SANDLIN: It may have been provided at some
time; 911 got started in Texas in '87.
AUDIENCE: Well, no one at 911 has ever heard of
it.
MR. SANDLIN: There's a lot of information out
there that's never been provided to us.
AUDIENCE: The County approved it and set it up.
MR. SANDLIN: I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with it.
AUDIENCE: It was before Judge Neunhoffer, and --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was a little bit before
my time.
MR. SANDLIN: I think we were in high school,
weren't we?
AUDIENCE: They approved it for the Post Office to
give the addresses on that route while it's being changed.
Since that time, well, then it's turned over to the County.
MR. SANDLIN: Well, the Post Office never really
had the authority to issue addresses.
AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah, they were given the authority
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at the time, I beg to differ with you.
MR. SANDLIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: T., I'd like to go back to
your priority list real quick and just -- I just have --
MR. SANDLIN: Sure. And, this is just my
suggestion, Buster.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that. And,
actually, I just have a statement; there's no question in
this thing. Number one, of the blanket order from
Commissioners Court fixing the geo-region prefix for all
roads. In my mind, when we've adopted this document, we've
done it.
MR. SANDLIN: That's -- that's my idea too, but --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We've done that.
MR. SANDLIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In 902, and then -- then we
go down to the duplicate road names, and -- you know, I know
we've kicked that thing to death here tonight, but I'd like
-- I personally would like to get a little more pinpointed on
this timeframe thing. We talk in general terms all the time,
and sometimes our "next week" turns into months. And, I'm
not throwing rocks at you; we all do that. But, I -- I'd
really like to get specific about when you can get us that
list, if we're going to get one list next week and then --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Duplicate road names.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Duplicate road names. And
then the final list of duplicate road names with -- with
recommended change names and all that.
MR. SANDLIN: I don't know if we'll have any
recommendation for name changes on it, according -- next week
in accordance with the guidelines, but I can get y'all that
list.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. When are we
going to get that list, the first list?
MR. SANDLIN: Short of anything breaking down, next
week.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Next week? That --
MR. SANDLIN: After Labor Day.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tomorrow's Wednesday. We
start playing football tomorrow night. Okay, I -- all right,
I just have to get everything together here. So, like, next
Monday is Labor Day, and then we run through Friday.
Somewhere in that timeframe, we're going to get that list?
MR. SANDLIN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. Did you get that
down? Okay, thank you. That's all I'm looking for, thank
you.
MR. SANDLIN: Just bear in mind that -- I just want
to make one thing clear. I wear many hats, just like y'all
do.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand.
MR. SANDLIN: And Z don't get to sit just in a
strictly administrative capacity. I'm the guy that cleans
up, empties the trash cans, all the way to when the system
breaks down or if there's a problem, I go handle it. So,
there's some other emphasis.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. If you think it's
going to be the following week --
MR. SANDLIN: If something happens, I'll holler at
you.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Well, holler at all
of us, because I want us all to know what we're doing.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It would be good for us to
have that list with enough time to do some reviewing --
MR. SANDLIN: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- before the second court
session in September.
MR. SANDLIN: Like to have one --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Where we can try to address
that.
MR. SANDLIN: What one of my people is doing is --
actually, we're trying to make sure we have a nice -- you
know, I can't bring you a map like this and show you
duplicate road names; there's just too much stuff on there.
We're trying to break it down into an enlarged section, so
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that you have some idea of where you're going with it.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would say don't --
probably don't get hung up too much on graphics.
MR. SANDLIN: No, we just want --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Just want a list --
MR. SANDLIN: Right.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- is what we need first, to
see how big of a problem we've got. And, you might have
where they are, by geo-region.
MR. SANDLIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's close enough --
MR. SANDLIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN -- for -- you know, and we
can work from that.
MR. SANDLIN: Did you get that down? That's close
enough.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, I mean, we need as good
a list as we can get of geo-regions and the names of the
roads.
MR. SANDLIN: And we -- it will be next week, after
Tuesday.
MR. ZACHARY: Mr. Griffin, don't you think that
however many less than 90 is something that can be addressed
pretty much just within the daily workings of --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes.
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MR. ZACHARY: -- the signage plan? It's already in
place, as Buster said. The next step to get where we all
want is to get out out there, get those signs moving in the
cities, as well as the county.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think --
MR. ZACHARY: Five hundred, so it would be --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Here's the priority for me,
is to get -- and this is just my opinion, but it seems to me
that what we want to do first is we've got to get good
duplicate road names taken care of and signage on that. And,
I'm not as much concerned about signage, even though we need
to address that. I'm more concerned that we -- that we get
road names and numbers to the -- to the people that live
there. In other words, that they're going to be Southwest
Smith Road, you know, 106 Southwest Smith Road or whatever it
is. And, that's the real process that we're heading for.
Now, I think the duplicate road names is -- is a good
thing to start with, because we know that's going to be
critical. We're going to have to spend some -- we're going
to have to spend some time with that, probably, on the Court
to -- to listen to our constituents, as the City will have to
do when they get to that point, too. But, we can take care
of that. My -- my real thing is the next scheduled question
I'm going to ask you after we get the duplicate road names
list -- and I'll save the question for that, but the next
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question is -- is when do we start walking across the county,
in whatever grid fashion or however it's done, and start
assigning numbers and get the names of the streets tied down
for sure with the prefix, where required, and get that
notification to the citizen involved? That's the next big
step.
And, when that starts happening, I think, you know,
we're just going to have to wade off into that and start
doing it. And then we'll accommodate the Post Office, which
I would note, again, is nut represented here tonight, which I
think is -- is poor. But, at least we will work with them as
closely as we can, but -- but that's the next real question.
That's what we've got to do is get those numbers and names
assigned and that information to the citizens so they know
what they are, the 911 system knows where and who they are.
And, when they pick up a phone to dial 911, without saying a
word, emergency services will be -- which is really the
mandate, I believe, for the national system, is eventually
you could dial 911 and not say a word, and emergency services
will be dispatched.
MR. SANDLIN: Land line phones for land line force.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Land line phones for land
line force, that's correct.
MR. SANDLIN: Let me -- and I'm going to shut up
here real quick, but we're already doing -- we're already
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doing what you're talking about. We were trying -- and I
didn't bring the maps, just 'cause they're big; I didn't want
to hold the meeting down. But, we were trying to dutifully
follow some of the postal routes out here, and what happens
is some of the postal routes criss-cross on the -- some of
the main roads. And, they don't even have maps, some of
those areas. The local postmasters have been very good.
I've been taking my maps to them and they've been using
colored markers, showing me where those roads criss-cross.
We can accommodate them as much as we can, but as we hit
over here off the -- as soon as we get through with our
little PSAP venture, probably, we're hitting the Cade Loop
area; we've got a lot of requests out there, and work in that
area and get that area whipped out. And, if we can correlate
it to whatever route it's on, if it is on a route, which most
of it isn't, then we will go in there and type that into the
correct rural route database base that we have. And, then
we'll take the next section, the next section, and the next
section, and march across the way.
I've been trying to give firm timetables, say, "Okay,
we're going to start here and wind up here 17 days from now."
There are -- as you can see here and as I showed you with
those spots a while ago, there's somewhat too much unknown.
Speaking with some people who have done this many times, and
with our population densities and stuff, I talked with some
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gentlemen from CABCO at AACOG the other day who've been doing
this for years in other states and stuff. They said,
realistically, I should expect about three months per
geo-region using the geo -- the presumed population of the
geo -- you know, one may take one week longer; one may take
one week less, but we're probably looking at about three
months per geo-region when we start knocking on the first
door.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You're going to have --
here's my real question. You're going to have a plan to go
do this, not based on anybody's request, but I would hope
that you would have a plan that says we're going to work this
section or this road or this --
MR. SANDLIN: HC-1, HC-2 are what we're working on
now.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That goes right through it.
And, when a citizen's coming in and says, "I want my number,"
you know, you'll say, "Fine, we're going to be in your area"
-- "be doing your area the 6th week in the quarter," or
something. So, in other words, for you to be able to -- be
able to do your lob, I think you've got to have a plan of
what you're going to do to get the whole county covered. And
you can't be too reactive. I'm not saying you are, but you
can't be too reactive to a citizen that says, "I want my
number now, and no matter what." If you did that, if you
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were responsive to that, you'd never get it done.
MR. SANDLIN: Okay. When they call, are you going
to back me up2
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes.
MR. SANDLIN: And, I'm saying that -- that all the
Commissioners --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Specifically, I'd back you
up a thousand percent.
MR. SANDLIN: Because --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You've got a job to do for
the County, not for any one individual citizen. 'Cause we
want to get all the citizens taken care of, not just one, not
lust ten.
MR. SANDLIN: That's been some of the problem in
the past, the helter-skelter, "Let's jump over here." It's
got to be systematic.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you can get -- whenever you
get your plan and a timetable, you need to make sure you get
it to us, so that when people call us, can we can say, yes --
and before -- you just told me, say, it will take a year and
a half to do this. So, yes, you're going to get your address
in a year and a half, which is not going to be a very popular
answer, but we have -- we have six qeo-regions in year and a
half.
MR. SANDLIN: We've got to start somewhere and work
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in progression.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's exactly right. If we
know what the situation is, and in -- the public understands
what the system is and how we're going to do it, then people
will go along with you. You know, I don't --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As an example, our Road and
Bridge Department are super great planners, and they -- a i
constituent can call me from Cocoa Road out here and ask me,
I
"When are y'all going to get out here and do my road?" I can',
call these folks and they can almost say, "June of next
year." It's in the plan. j
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: They're pretty close.
j
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And they're real, real, real',
close. And, I think that they would be willing to help us
it
set up something like that, maybe. ',
MR. SANDLIN: Don't get me wrong, I'm not chunking
rocks at anybody, but I would like to have a group where I
could do a specific purpose like that and it's not too small
there.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Franklin?
MR. JOHNSTON: We have a question. I think we're
going to get a lot of calls on these duplicate names; people
are going to call in and ask about them. Who do we refer
those calls to to get definite answers about where --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think would it depend what
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-- the nature of the question being what? Like, "I've lust
got notified that my" --
MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- "road's going to be
changed"?
MS. HARDIN: Yeah, or when they're going to be --
the road name changes are going to be done. Is there going
to be one person or one phone call that will be a clearing-
house, saying, "This is what your name is going to be"? If
you're a private road, is it T.? In the County-maintained
roads, is it each Commissioner? Is it --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think -- and this is my --
my opinion on the Commissioners Court, is -- is that -- that
those name changes are going to be done by court order, and
that if a constituent has a question about that, I would
expect them to call me if they're in my -- if they're in my
precinct.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just give them Larry's home
phone number, and wait till 10 o'clock.
MS. HARDIN: And if it's a private road, then it
goes to T.; is that right?
MR. SANDLIN: If it's a private road, as defined in
the -- in the deal.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: In the guidelines.
MR. SANDLIN: In the guidelines. If it's a --
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MR. ODOM: If it's not County-maintained, to us, it
makes no -- it's neither public road nor private road, you
know. And, we're not allowed by -- to go back onto private
property, which a public road -- you know, that subdivision
in there may be a public road, but we don't maintain it, so
we -- we just can't arbitrarily go in there and violate
statutes.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, you'd --
MR. ODOM: Especially if it's got a gate on it.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't think that's -- what
he's saying is a private road is a different situation.
MR. ODOM: If it's got a locked gate on it.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But, a public road that is a
platted, public road, whether it's paved or not, whether it's
maintained by the County or not, is still the responsibility
of the -- of the County, and if there's a question on one
that's in my precinct, I'll handle the question. I'll call
T. and say, "Well, how did we rename it?" And --
MS. HARDIN: What if they call in and they don't
have a road name, so we're assuming it's a strictly private
road? Then the call goes to you?
MR. SANDLIN: Yes. And, if we determine -- like
the guy says, if we determine that it doesn't fall under the
private access road, as defined in the guidelines, then we
forward it to Commissioners Court. We're not talking about
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any issues of -- I realize maintenance and no maintenance is
a big issue, but as far as road-naming, that's -- it's a
different story.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's either public or it's
private.
MS. HARDIN: Okay. Another question I have is, did
you determine that that geo --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Region.
MS. HARDIN: -- region is a 2-inch letter that goes
on these signs, replacing them, or -- you know, or is it a
9-inch letter?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Four.
MS. HARDIN: It's a 4-inch letter?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The only thing that goes
smaller is the block numbers.
MR. SANDLIN: If there's a -- it says 200 and 300
on either side of the sign.
MS. HARDIN: Oh, okay. All right.
MR. ZACHARY: On the street sign.
MS. HARDIN: So, all that we're replacing them from
now on will have that in front of the name.
MR. SANDLIN: But, I mean, that is our suggestion,
that we put into the guidelines based on M.U.T.C.D.
MR. ODOM: We can handle it.
MR. TEER: I have a question.
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JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, Jack?
MR. TEER: If we have time. I want to ask it
because we have some City representatives here, and it's
something that I'm kind of fuzzy around the edges about.
I want to be sure I'm hearing this right. The only entity,
unless I missed something, that hasn't, at least at this
point, signed off on the guidelines is the City; is that
right?
JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: City of Kerrville.
MR. TEER: Is the reason for that primarily because
of address changing? What would it be?
MR. TUNE: It's being reviewed by the City
Attorney. I think it's -- Commissioner, we have a new
Planner coming in next week. It's really just working it
through the system. That is a concern, but it's just -- just
a question that's been asked. We're not aware -- we were
aware, of course, up until recently, the duplicate was going
to be a problem. Then, when we just heard a couple months
ago that all the addresses would have that prefix, it was a
question, because we know we will be asked that question by
the citizens. So, no, that's not -- it's as far as I know.
Again, I want to be careful, but I don't think this has gone
to the council yet, so it's still being looked at.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Dane, do you have anything on
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the timetable?
MR. TUNE: I talked to him today. He said, "Well,
let me have the Planner come in from Washington state, let me
show it to him and ask him maybe if he's got a little
experience." I hate to put a time on it, but I don't think
it would be a -- you know, a long period of time. We lust
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want to sit down and --
MR. TEER: Well, in keeping with the Kerrville
issue -- and I don't mean to catch T. off-guard here, because
I didn`t preview the question with him either. I've had some
experience of having to sign some checks to change addresses,
and postage to notify clients and people like that.
Arguably, the folks who will bear more cost in that regard
would probably be inside the city limits of Kerrville. The
big businesses are located in Kerrville. It would cost money
-- it would cost one of the big companies here more money to
have to deal with that than it would somebody that lives off
at the end of Goat Creek Road.
Would it be possible -- and this is where I'm catching
T. kind of off-guard. When we've all looked at and agreed on
the sensibility of the layout of the geo-regions, how it
makes sense to lay the north edge out along the road, 'cause
that's -- you know, everybody knows where it is and it makes
sense. Would it help, from Kerrville's standpoint, to change
the boundary and get all of the city limits in one
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geo-region?
MR. SANDLIN: The way we divided that up was to
also give some relief to the little cities, too. It also
helps on some of -- some of Kerrville's duplicate road name
issues. If y'all want me to go back and revisit it, too --
MR. TEER: All I'm trying to come up with here is a
way to get at least the guidelines approved by the City of
Kerrville, because everybody else in the county has done this
except Kerrville.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Jack, to be real honest with you,
the cast is the thing.
MR. TEER: Yeah, I would think so.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Because you've got a year after the
Post Office accepts the 911 address within which they will
deliver to both addresses. But, any business worth its salt
is going to turn over its inventory, stationary and checks,
at least once within a year. You're not talking about having
them go out and -- like banks have done when -- and
signmakers have gotten fat off of banks in the last 15 years.
We're not talking about going out, changing all the names and
all the addresses on all your letterhead and your checks
overnight.
MR. TEER: Yeah.
JUDGE HENNEKE: You've got a minimum of a year, and
probably close to two years, where your current address is
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going to work fine as far as mail is concerned.
MR. TEER: The fact that it's not signed off by
Kerrville, does that in any way :slow down the process that
we're talking about here?
MR. SANDLIN: We're going ahead and working. We're
not ignoring Kerrville, by any means. But, yes, it's slowing
me down, because I need to know what block ranges they intend
to work with. Because once you get outside the immediate
part of Kerrville, which is on the old Clarkson maps where
Mr. Clarkson actually put the block ranges in, then it's
anybody's guess, because it's -- as different employees came
through the City, as I understand, in Planning and
Engineering, different ones had different methodologies of
assigning these numbers. And, that's why we sometimes wind
up with a 5100 block way off, or we wind up with 2081 in the
1900 block.
When I was speaking with their attorney and the former
City Planner the other day, they're predicting some
development and some new houses being built in an area where
the numbering system is a little confusing right now. That's
not city-wide, but there are some the more -- as we get out
in the center of town. I'm lust going to have to do -- if
they don't sign on pretty quick, I'm lust going to have to
arbitrarily say, "Okay, starting out here by the airport, one
mile past it, east, that's the 6000 block."
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And, if they come in behind me and say, "No, we're going
to go with quarter-mile blocks," and throw that sequence off
-- and I'm not saying they're going to do that; don't get me
wrong. I'm using examples from other cities and counties
that have been through this. Anii, I've got no indication
that they would do that at all; I'm lust saying that that
kind of stuff can happen, and I don't want to be the one
everybody's trying to pin the tail on if that situation
happens. But, at the same time, I can't say it and wait
another six months to get some affirmative decisions on this
stuff. I've got to keep rolling.
JUDGE HENNEKE: We're moving ahead in the
unincorporated areas; we`re going to address duplicate name
changes, we're going to start naming subdivisions. And,
plus, we can`t wait. We`ve got too much going on out there
to sit and wait for the new City Planner to decide to what
extent this is a priority and pass it off to the City
Attorney, who passes off to his assistant, who then decides
to what extent it's a priority.
MR. SANDLIN: Like I say, I'll work with anybody
any way I possibly can, but there's been too much delays
where I've had to wait for different things to fall into
place, and we've got to move on. I'll keep it as orderly as
I can to make my best decisions, but, you know, I have to
trudge on.
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I had -- a gentleman had a question in the back, if I
could answer it real quick. There's a section in the
guidelines, No. 604, which talks about substantial
compliance. And, if there is already some road numbering
that exists along a road, even though it doesn't match -- you
know, our guidelines call for 52.8 intervals and it calls for
odd on one side and even on the other side. If we go out to
a road, say, 16 South, and odd numbers are supposed to be on
the right, but they're on the left instead, but they're
otherwise in sequential order, and there's plenty of room to
address between them, we're not going out there and change
all that. There's a section in here called "Substantial
Conformance" which addresses that, and we very much try to
stick to that. There's a lot of areas that are fine that are
addressed in 200-foot increments. I'm not going to qo and
re -- change those people. It wouldn't solve anything.
AUDIENCE: All of those that I took off the street
-- the geophysical map -- it was the geophysical map of 1964;
that's the latest they had. Now, I guess that's the last one
they made of the county, but those are all measured off with
measuring of 1,000-foot blocks, and that's how they got all
those numbers in there. They go consecutively, even on the
right and odd on the left, all the way up to the county line,
apparently.
MR. SANDLIN: Except for the people that made up
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their own numbers. We will try not to change anything we
don't have to.
AUDIENCE: See, I've traveled 190 miles a day
delivering mail all around Kerrville, out past the airport,
Gillespie County line, up on top of the Medina mountain.
These people were all given addr~>_sses, and it happened
practically overnight; it really did. And, it never happened
except two close names. One of them was Canyon Road. That's
got a name -- in town it's Canyon Street, but that's what it
was named out there, was Canyon Road.
MR. SANDLIN: And, it's changed a lot. Gentlemen,
do y'all have any more questions?
JUDGE HENNEKE: If there's nothing else, I thank
everyone for coming. We appreciate it. And, T., we'll be
looking forward to moving down the road on this. Jack, thank
you and the Board.
MR. TEER: This is productive; this is a good way
to do things.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: In fact, I would recommend
that -- that, not at any specified interval, but at some
point in the future, when we get a little further down the
road and we know what some of the problems are, maybe
something like this would be productive to try again.
MR. TEER: Judge, you may be the one to answer
this. Does this -- could we have a workshop without it being
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a posted meeting?
JUDGE HENNEKE: No.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: See, that's our problem,
too.
MR. TEER: It is ours, too. I'm just looking for
ways --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It has to be posted, and if
it's posted that way, if a decision needs to be made, it can
be made.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah.
JUDGE HENNEKE: We have to post it even if it's a
workshop.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: For us, I find it almost
easier to just go ahead and post it. And -- and then we
don't have to worry about it. You know, we don't have to be
careful about --
MR. TEER: Over the years, I've just seen lots of
things happen that can get done if you gather people around a
table and set a big glass of tea in the middle of the table.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Glass of tea, and get it done. If
there's nothing else before our Commissioners Court, we're
going to stand adjourned.
MR. RUSSUM: Move we adjourn.
MR. TEER: Second. Mr. Russum seconded that
motion.
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(Discussion off the record.)
(Commissioners Court and 911 Board were adjourned
at 8:05 p.m.)
STATE OF TEXAS I
COUNTY OF KERR I
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 15th day of September,
1999.
JANNET//T PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
Kathy nik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter