1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, March 13, 2000 11 Commissioners' Courtroom 12 Kerr County Courthouse 13 Kerrville, Texas 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X March 13, 2000 2 PAGE --- Visitors' Input 3 3 --- Commissioners' Comments 4 --- Approval Agenda 5 4 2.11 Selection of Quorum Architects to assist HCYEC 5 Master Planning Committee 19 6 2.1 Proposed modified Burn Ban procedures 24 7 2.2 Preliminary plat - Buckhorn Lake Resort 39 8 2.7 PUBLIC HEARING - abandonment of platted road easements in Japonica Hills Subdivision 55 9 2.8 Order abandoning platted road easements 10 in Japonica Hills Subdivision 56 11 2.6 Open & consider annual bids, road materials 57 12 2.9 Support for concept of affordable rental housing units, Heritage Oaks 67 13 2.10 Historical Registration of Rose House 73 14 2.3 Final plat - Saddlewood Estates, Section II 75 15 2.16 PUBLIC HEARING - "Order of the Kerr County 16 Commissioners Court Adopting the Regulations for Sexually Oriented Businesses in the 17 Unincorporated Area of Kerr County, Texas" 78 18 2.17 Consider & discuss adopting above Order 107 19 2.4 Accepting Loss Analysis Report 108 20 2.5 Request for use of Capital Outlay money 109 21 2.13 Revision of concept plan, Flat Rock Lake Park 110 22 2.12 Maintenance Dept. annual bids for service work 122 23 2.14 Moving administrative office of Plateau Planning Group (Region J) to Kerr County Courthouse 131 24 2.15 Proposed draft of Subdivision Rules & Regs 136 25 --- Meeting Adjourned 176 3 1 On Monday, March 13, 2000, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerrville, Kerr County, Texas, 4 and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good morning, everyone. It's 7 9 o'clock on Monday, March 13th, Year 2000. This is our 8 regular Kerr County Commissioners Court meeting. At this 9 time, would y'all please stand and join me for a word of 10 prayer and then the pledge of allegiance. 11 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. At this time, if 13 there's any citizen in the audience who would like to 14 address the Court on an item which is not on the agenda, 15 please come forward and do so. Do we have anyone here who 16 would like to address the Court on an item which is not on 17 the regular agenda? Yes, sir? Mr. Tomlinson? 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Just for information, we 19 finalized our sale Saturday, about 2 o'clock. We're in the 20 process of trying to locate all the bidders. And, we -- we 21 didn't do as well as I promised, but we did -- we did free 22 up some -- some room in some of the places that we had old 23 equipment for a long time, so we're ready to start over 24 again. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Did we cover our expenses? 4 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Oh, yes. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 3 MR. TOMLINSON: We did do that. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right, thank you Is 5 there anyone else who would like to address us on an issue 6 not on the regular agenda? If not, we'll move into the 7 Commissioners' comments. Let's start with Commissioner 8 Williams. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing this morning, 10 Judge. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Jonathan? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have nothing. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Larry? 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Nothing. Busy day. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have anything. 16 I assume you're going to comment on the Tivy soccer team. I 17 missed it, didn't I? 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: That, too. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: I have a couple of items. 21 The Tivy High School soccer team has a game today at 6 22 o'clock with Fredericksburg to determine who goes in the 23 playoffs. That game will be in Fredericksburg. Also, over 24 the weekend, the Tivy High School Mock Trial competed at the 25 State finals in Dallas. Did not make the final four; made 5 1 the top ten. We do not know exactly where they placed, 2 because that information wasn't available. As always, our 3 kids conducted themselves with a great deal of dignity and 4 grace and poise, and you'd be very proud of all of them, as 5 I was. It's interesting that we are probably one of the -- 6 only two schools out of the 26 that competed who were there 7 to win and not simply to compete. And, the disappointment 8 on our kids' faces when they didn't get chosen for the final 9 four was both hard to see and encouraging to see, because 10 their level of competition and their expectations of 11 themselves are very high, and this is an extraordinary 12 competition. Based on my experience last year, it's more 13 difficult to win the State championship than to win the 14 National championship, so we can be very proud of those. 15 And, any of you who happen to run across Judge Ables or 16 Judge Prohl, as well as David Jackson, Rob Kelly, or Bill 17 Arnold, need to thank them for the hours that they devote to 18 the program, simply out of the love of the kids and the 19 desire to be a contribution to the community. So, we're not 20 going to Charleston, but we did fine, anyway. Thank you, 21 Buster, for reminding me. At this time, we'll take up the 22 bills. Mr. Auditor, do we have any bills to pay? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, we do. We always do. 24 Always have bills. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Does anyone have any 6 1 questions regarding any of the bills that have been 2 presented to us by the County Auditor's office? No? 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I move we pay the 4 bills. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 7 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that we pay the 8 bills as presented and recommended by the County Auditor. 9 Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your 10 right hand. 11 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. We have some 15 budget amendments, it appears. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, we do. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Budget Amendment Number 1 18 relates to the Courts Collection Department. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. This is a request 20 from Judge Brown to transfer $131 from Office Supplies to 21 Books, Publications, and Dues, and it's for dues for -- for 22 Russ Duncan. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Dues? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: For their association. 7 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: For his association? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah, for the State 3 Collector's Association; I guess that's what it's called. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think this is the 5 first time we've seen that. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, they have just 7 organized in the last year, I believe it is. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 11 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Williams, that we 12 authorize Budget Amendment Request Number 1 for the Courts 13 Collection Department. Any further discussion? If not, all 14 in favor, raise your right hand. 15 (The motion was approved by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 2, 19 relating to the Sheriff's Department. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. We -- this is a 21 request from the Sheriff's Department to transfer $73 from 22 Maintenance Contracts to Machine Repair. It's to pay -- pay 23 a bill for some work done on a computer at the Sheriff's 24 Office. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 8 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 4 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve Budget 5 Amendment Request Number 2 for the Sheriff's Department. 6 Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your 7 right hand. 8 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Number 3 relates to the 216th 12 District Court. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. This is relating to 14 the -- to the trial that was transferred to Bandera two or 15 three weeks ago. We're requesting to change -- to transfer 16 $8,102.86 from Court-appointed Attorneys to Special Trials. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 20 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that we approve 21 Budget Amendment Request Number 3. Tommy, is this -- are 22 these the total bills for that trial, or is there more yet 23 to come? Do you know? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm not totally sure. I 25 think -- I think this -- I think we've already paid the -- 9 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Last bill? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: We paid some bills last -- 3 last court, but I'm not sure this is all of it. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: We paid the bills relating to 5 our deputies who had -- 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- gone over there and acted 8 as security. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: These bills came through 10 Bandera County; they -- I think, that we have right here. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: The reason I raise the issue 12 is because the District Clerk raised with me her concerns 13 over the charges from Bandera County for their deputies 14 acting as security for this trial. She told -- she told me 15 that she had some questions about the magnitude of the 16 security they provided when we were providing, you know, 17 four to six deputies a day to act as security. Do you know 18 anything at all about that? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: No. No, I don't. I -- I can 20 look -- I mean, I can look into it if -- 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: I would appreciate it if you 22 would look into it. Obviously, we want to pay them for -- 23 for what they did for us, but Ms. Uecker mentioned that 24 there was as many as -- as eight to ten Bandera deputies 25 being paid full-time for security at the same time we were 10 1 paying four of ours for security. If there's that much 2 security necessary, well, there's that much security 3 necessary, but -- 4 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. I think that the Judge 5 would have to, I think, be involved with that, to see if he 6 thought that there was -- that was necessary, too. I'll -- 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't want to hold up the 8 payment, but if you'll just agree to take a look at that -- 9 MR. TOMLINSON: I will. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- and make sure that you 11 feel that there's not any excess in that. Motion's on the 12 table. Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise 13 your right hand. 14 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 4 18 relates to the County Jail. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. This is a request 20 from the Sheriff to transfer $3,745.54; $825.50 to Part-Time 21 Salaries, and $2,920.04 to Overtime. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Questions or comments? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I assume the overtime 24 is in the jail due to the lack of staff when we started 25 filling the beds up? 11 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, this is -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's 3 probably it. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: This is for -- from 9 -- I 5 mean 12 -- December of '99 through the second pay period in 6 February, so that's probably true. Part of that is probably 7 true. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 11 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve 12 Budget Amendment Request Number 4 relating to County Jail. 13 Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your 14 right hand. 15 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 5 19 relates to Rabies and Animal Control. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. This is a need to pay 21 the premium on this new vehicle. It's $159. There were 22 monies left over in Capital Outlay, so I'm recommending that 23 we make that move from Capital Outlay to Insurance. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 12 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 2 Williams, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that we approve 3 Budget Amendment Request Number 5 relating to Rabies and 4 Animal Control. Any further discussion? If not, all in 5 favor, raise your right hand. 6 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 6 10 relates to Jail Maintenance. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: This -- the amount on the -- 12 on the amendment request form is the total amount of bills 13 that we have to pay, in-hand. So, this is the same issue 14 that we've addressed at the last two Court meetings. Glenn 15 is -- he's not behind me; I don't see him -- is having some 16 tests done at the hospital today -- this morning, so he 17 couldn't be here. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: He's working on 19 getting what it would take to run out the year. Is that 20 the -- 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- where we left it 23 last time? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, he is, so I guess at 25 this time we do the $6,618.66. 13 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: And this would have to be an 2 emergency and come under the Reserves? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, that's correct. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: What are we down to in our 5 Contingency? 6 MR. TOMLINSON: I didn't bring my -- my book 7 with me, so I'm not sure. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 11 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve Budget 12 Amendment Request Number 6 for Jail Maintenance, declare an 13 emergency and authorize expenditure of $6,618.66 out of 14 Reserves. Any further discussion? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question, if 16 Tommy knows, and I don't know -- Glenn's not here, so we 17 really can't -- I'm not sure Tommy can answer it. But, is 18 this what we're going to be anticipating each month from now 19 on through the end of the budget year, if -- 20 MR. TOMLINSON: No, I don't -- that's hard to 21 estimate. For me, it would be. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: For me, that would be hard to 24 estimate. I don't know. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But, again, this is 14 1 related to the problem that they've had in the jail with 2 respect to the vandalism inside, the interior vandalism? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm not sure. I can look at 4 the bills and maybe guess. There's $1,338, and it's -- does 5 not have any relationship to that. It's for some 6 cleaning -- it says -- wait a minute. I'm not sure what 7 this is. I'm going to have the to ask about this one. It's 8 $1,400 from Robert L. Brown for some work on some control 9 room doors. Additional $1,000 for some contract labor to 10 install some new locks. And, this is -- one's for $2,500 to 11 H2O Specialists for labor and material to replace a backflow 12 for the plumbing. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $2,200? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: $2,504. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's pretty high for 16 that. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, the -- we all have to 19 remember the situation, that they used the bulk of the money 20 on the jail maintenance because of the problems -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I was 22 asking. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: There's no money left in Jail 24 Maintenance budget line item for regular maintenance now. 25 So, that's why these are coming before us, is because they 15 1 used the regular maintenance budget to fix the sprinkler 2 problem, and so now there's not the money that had been 3 anticipated for regular routine maintenance left in the 4 budget. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think another point, 7 that some of our maintenance expenditures probably are going 8 to be a little bit higher because our population has 9 increased out there substantially, which also has increased 10 our revenue substantially. So, while we're declaring an 11 emergency, we do have an increase on the revenue side which 12 will help part of this, anyway. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm. When does 14 that show up? I mean, when do we see the revenue side of 15 this? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next August. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: It will show up in next 18 year's budget. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. What I mean 20 is -- is that because we're actually -- I think what 21 Jonathan is saying is very true, and yet we're not 22 reflecting that we have increased the revenue side of the -- 23 of the jail, and so we're going to have more expenses, no 24 doubt about it. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Probably really hasn't shown 16 1 up that much yet, but I would imagine in another month or 2 two, we could ask for a report as to what we -- what revenue 3 we've gotten over what we had budgeted, and be able to see. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: If the level of occupancy 5 stays like it is, in two or three months, we will probably 6 have to have some budget amendments for food items, as well 7 as medical items. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: See, that wasn't 9 foreseen in -- the fact that we're going to increase the 10 jail population was not foreseen in the last budget process, 11 so we're going to have to make do with -- until we can get 12 that taken care of. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All aspects of operations 14 will be affected. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All those numbers show 16 up in the monthly report. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They do. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have a motion and a second 20 on the floor. Any further discussion? If not, all in 21 favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Budget Amendment Request 17 1 Number 6 is approved. Do we have any late bills? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: I have one for $200 for -- to 3 KPUB. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To KPUB for 5 installation of the pole at the Center Point Park. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's the Lion's Park line 8 item in the park's budget. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: That's correct. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 13 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that we approve a 14 late bill in the amount of $200 for KPUB. Any further 15 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 16 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you. 20 At this time, I would entertain a motion to waive reading 21 and approve the minutes of the February 2 emergency session, 22 the February 14th regular session, the February 22nd special 23 session, and the February 23rd special emergency session, 24 and the February 28th special session of Commissioners 25 Court. 18 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 4 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that we waive 5 reading and approve the minutes of the prior meetings. Any 6 further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right 7 hand. 8 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. At this 12 time, I would entertain a motion to approve and accept the 13 monthly reports. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 17 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve and accept 18 the monthly reports. Any further discussion? If not, all 19 in favor, raise your right hand. 20 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. We'll now 24 move into the consideration agenda. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, with your 19 1 permission and the Court's permission, I'd like to ask if we 2 could move 2.11 up to the front of the agenda. We have some 3 folks who are visiting with us this morning in support of 4 this particular agenda item, and if we can take this up at 5 this point, they can be about their day's work and we can be 6 about ours. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Without any objection, we 8 will go directly to Item 2.11, which is consider and discuss 9 the selection of Quorum Architects, Inc., Fort Worth, Texas, 10 to assist Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center Master 11 Planning Committee in developing a comprehensive master 12 plan, authorize contract negotiations for services and fees, 13 authorize the County Judge to sign and negotiate a contract. 14 Commissioner Williams. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Commissioner Letz and 16 I have been privileged to co-chair the Master Plan -- Ag 17 Barn Master Plan Committee. We've met on four different 18 occasions, and it was determined that we were going to be in 19 need of some professional services to guide us through the 20 decision making that has to do with respect to the master 21 plan and how that might come about and what it would involve 22 in terms of either renovations or expansion of the Ag 23 complex. Before we get too deeply into it, I'd like to 24 introduce some of the members of the committee who are 25 present today. Ernie Kaiser is here. Ernie? Sudie Burditt 20 1 is here. Bernie Bruns is one of the members of the 2 committee. If I'm missing anybody else who's out there who 3 might be a part of or might have been a part of that -- 4 Glenn Holekamp is a member of staff who has been a part of 5 it. After talking considerably about our needs out there 6 and what might be beneficial to the community in terms of 7 expansion and renovation, we quickly determined that we were 8 going to need some professional help. We interviewed three 9 different firms with respect to this type of services, the 10 level of services that could be acquired for this purpose. 11 One of them was local. It was A.P.S. Plans Service, Walter 12 Schellhase. The other one was from San Antonio, combination 13 of Groves Associates and -- I think I have the name of them 14 here -- pardon? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Heard? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, Walter Heard 17 and Debra Dockery, and also in conjunction with a firm 18 called Community Futures out of Denver. And, the third was 19 Quorum Architects out of Fort Worth. And, the committee 20 listened to the presentations of all three. And, the 21 recommendation came back -- I'm sure some of these folks in 22 the audience are prepared, with Commissioner Letz, to 23 support that -- was that we select Quorum Architects from 24 Fort Worth to assist us in the Hill Country Youth Exhibition 25 Master Plan Committee and develop a comprehensive master 21 1 plan. Jonathan, do you want to add anything? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- the only -- I guess, 3 all of the three companies we interviewed were, you know, 4 well-qualified. They'd all had a lot of experience in 5 planning projects. But, I think kind of what pushed the 6 group and myself towards Quorum Architects is they have had 7 expertise in exactly the type of facility we have and where 8 we're trying to go on expanding and looking at this 9 facility. They had some expertise, in my mind, that none of 10 the others really had, directly. I think any of them were 11 qualified to do it, but in the certain -- the type of 12 facility that we have, and some work that Quorum Architects 13 has recently done, and also their project leader that they 14 have assigned to this project is very familiar with this -- 15 these types of facilities with agricultural use, rodeos, 16 horses, and all the like, so I think it was a -- a -- 17 they'll do a real good job. After that, I -- I agree with 18 that recommendation. I don't know if Ernie or Sudie or -- 19 well, Ernie, Sudie, Bernie, would any of you like to speak? 20 MR. KAISER: I wasn't at the last meeting when 21 y'all met, but if the group feels like they're the ones to 22 go -- I was at the first meeting when we met with the other 23 two, and they were both real qualified. So, if the group 24 feels like this is the one to go with, I'm behind them all 25 the way. 22 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sudie? 2 MS. BURDITT: I look forward to doing the 3 feasibility study with the group. I think we have a real 4 challenge in front of us in order to -- to come up with a 5 master plan that will meet the needs of all the groups that 6 presently use and that have the potential of using the 7 facility in the future. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bernie Bruns? 9 MR. BRUNS: I certainly endorse what the 10 Commissioners have said. I think the -- of the three, the 11 one that we selected is the one that will probably do the 12 best job for us, and I -- and I certainly endorse their 13 recommendation. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd just like to add, 15 Judge, that in addition to planning how you renovate 16 facilities or how you might expand them, one of the most 17 important elements of this is -- is the feasibility study to 18 determine what our needs truly are, that are being met. Are 19 they being met, and what additional needs can be met in this 20 process? And, this is an important component of the master 21 plan development, is to do the feasibility study. I would 22 move the selection of Quorum Architects of Fort Worth to 23 assist the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center Master Plan 24 Committee in developing a master plan, and authorize 25 contract negotiations for services and fees, and upon 23 1 completion of that, authorize the County Judge to sign same. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll second. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 4 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 5 select Quorum Architects, Inc., from Fort Worth to assist 6 Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center Master Planning 7 Committee in developing a comprehensive master plan, to 8 authorize the committee to enter into contract negotiations 9 for services and fees, and to authorize the County Judge to 10 sign the final agreement. Any further discussion? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have, I guess, one 12 additional comment, just, I think, so the public is aware 13 why we're doing it this way. The companies that we've 14 talked with didn't bid the price, per se. They feel it's a 15 professional service contract using engineers and 16 architects. That we will try to work out a deal within our 17 budget, which is the $20,000 we have from a grant and $5,000 18 that we've allocated, a total of $25,000 to get this job 19 done. If we cannot reach an agreement with Quorum 20 Architects within our budget, we'll come back to the Court 21 at that time. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Very good. Motion's been 23 made and seconded. Any further discussion? If not, all in 24 favor, raise your right hand. 25 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 24 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank all of you for 5 being a part of it. Appreciate your coming today. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Indeed, thank you all. At 7 this time, we'll go back to the agenda as posted. Item 2.1, 8 consider and discuss a proposed modified burn ban resolution 9 and procedures for implementation. Commissioner Griffin. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Thank you, Judge. As 11 everybody in Kerr County is aware of, we -- we do have a 12 drought problem, and great difficulty in both commercial and 13 private interests in being able to burn, primarily brush 14 piles for building sites. And, that's all the way from some 15 subdivisions to -- to -- I know I've got one young couple 16 out in my precinct trying to build a slab, and their 17 interest is running on their construction loan and they 18 can't get the burn pile burned, and they don't have the 19 money to go move it. So -- you know, so it's affecting 20 everybody, and I think we're all aware of that. 21 Over the last several meetings, the Court has 22 shown some interest in looking at maybe some various ways 23 of -- and different ways of instituting and lifting burn 24 bans or suspending them, et cetera. And, so, we looked 25 around for some models of somebody that had done this 25 1 before, and we found one close by, and that is Bandera 2 County. Bandera has -- and in your packages, you'll see a 3 model of their -- their burning resolution. I started with 4 that and redrafted, after talking with both the Judge and a 5 couple of Commissioners in Bandera County about what they 6 really meant when they were saying -- rewriting this last 7 paragraph in there, or the next-to-last paragraph. And, so, 8 I tried to clarify it a little bit of what the real intent 9 there was, and that's the underlined portion that you see in 10 the -- in the new proposal that I -- that I would make. 11 And, by the way, there is a typo in the copy 12 that's in your book. That up in the top there, that should 13 be 90 days. I just did that wrong, because I -- I think we 14 would still want to institute burn bans for the 90-day 15 period that we're talking about. But then, what that next 16 paragraph would give us the ability to do is to -- based on 17 input from the fire departments, we would be able to request 18 a suspension of the burn ban for a specified period of time. 19 What that would do is keep us from losing the good burn days 20 while we go through the process of trying to get the Court 21 together and a quorum and so on, if -- if the fire 22 departments sign off on that. And, we could do that by 23 precinct, as they do in Bandera. 24 You know, one of the things is -- is that 25 there's a couple of considerations. One is, Commissioner 26 1 Williams and I met Thursday night with all of the fire 2 chiefs, and I think the consensus was that this kind of a 3 plan ought to work. Bandera County has had great success 4 with it, they say. I got to thinking about it afterwards. 5 Once you get into this mode of thinking, you think this is 6 going to happen all the time. It doesn't happen often. 7 But, in those cases where we get spotty rain, where the east 8 end of the county or the west end of the county may get rain 9 and the rest of the county doesn't, it allows the 10 flexibility if the Commissioner -- only the Commissioner, 11 wants to make that request of the Judge to suspend it in 12 that precinct, based on input from the fire departments. 13 Because one of the things heretofore we 14 haven't had strong input on in burn bans is from the fire 15 departments, and what this does is puts them much more into 16 the loop on that decision-making process. And I know the 17 way I would work it in my precinct, and you see the sample 18 letter that I wrote here is, after consultation with the 19 fire departments, I would request that we suspend, and the 20 Judge could sign that as a memo, and we immediately can 21 start burning in that case while the water's still dripping 22 out of the trees, instead of two or three days later, when 23 the sun may have dried it out and we're essentially back in 24 the same mode where we were. 25 So, I would -- what now? There -- we've 27 1 discussed this with the fire chiefs. There are probably 2 three issues. One is implementing this, which I think we 3 can do essentially right now, but then there are two other 4 issues. One is, how do we publicize and get the word out? 5 And there we can make some great improvements. And I will 6 volunteer to do that -- continue that action item as far as 7 dealing with -- the papers do a good job; they get the 8 notices in there. But, on these short-term suspensions, we 9 may want to also engage to a greater degree the radio 10 stations in the area. 11 And, I am told by the 911 folks, they will 12 set up a hotline for us, a hotline burn ban, so that -- and 13 they will keep that up-to-date based on our input, so that 14 we don't have to do it here. That they would have a burn 15 ban hotline that anybody can call and you'll know what the 16 status is county-wide. And, if there is a precinct that has 17 a suspension on the burn ban, it would be included in that, 18 and that can be updated 24 hours a day if we do it through 19 911. 20 Secondly, we probably need to get some better 21 signage and flags, or whatever it takes, particularly if 22 you're going to have one precinct that may have a suspension 23 on it and the other three precincts -- or maybe only two got 24 it good, two precincts. The other two still have a burn 25 ban. You want to make sure that you do your best. I 28 1 asked -- to let the citizens know, I asked Bandera about how 2 they did that and whether they're -- what if somebody had 3 property that straddled a precinct or something. They said, 4 "Oh, we try to use our heads." You know, so I thought that 5 was a pretty good answer, that we use common sense. And -- 6 and we try to go about that the best way we can, and we have 7 some flexibility. 8 So -- but the third thing is -- and this is 9 one, again, I'll get with the Sheriff's Department and talk 10 some more. We chatted briefly about it in the last Court 11 session, but -- and that is the enforcement side. The fire 12 chiefs, in particular, agreed that an on-the-spot citation 13 when there is a burn ban violation is by far the most 14 effective, and that we need to -- to see if we -- and what I 15 would like to pursue is the idea that any time a 911 call 16 comes in for a fire in the county, that a deputy is 17 dispatched. Even if it -- 'cause it's a good idea, I think, 18 to have a deputy at a fire, anyway. They're not there to -- 19 they're not there to -- to act as the command post, but 20 there may be some assistance that the Sheriff's Department 21 can bring to the whole process. So, it's probably not a bad 22 idea to have a deputy dispatched when there is a fire in the 23 county. 24 That's essentially it. I will make a motion 25 that we go ahead and adopt the burn ban resolution, but we 29 1 may want to kick it around here some more before I do that. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just a couple 3 comments, Larry. The meeting we had out at Elm Pass Fire 4 Department was a good meeting, and attended by most of the 5 chiefs. And, the chiefs are supportive of this -- of this 6 concept for the obvious reason, that rainfall in Kerr County 7 from -- from border to border can vary so greatly, and 8 Commissioner Letz has reminded us of that often. It's -- 9 for instance, he gets rain when it doesn't rain anywhere 10 else. But, the signage is very important. 11 One of the concerns that the fire chiefs 12 raised, almost to a man, was the fact that it's easy for 13 people to learn that the burn ban is off, and they go out 14 and they begin their -- starting their fires. But, for some 15 reason or other, it's never quite as easy to -- to advise 16 them that the burn ban is on. And, so, one of the -- I 17 think what comes from this is the need for signage, 18 particularly if we're doing on it a precinct basis, signage 19 that's in addition to what the fire companies put out 20 themselves. Elm Pass is a pretty good example. The only 21 people who see the Elm Pass Fire Department's sign are those 22 who traverse Elm Pass Road. Nobody going up 27 or 480 or 23 anywhere else in that area is going to know, because they 24 don't see it. And, Center Point Fire Department signage, if 25 it's available, again, is off to the side and not readily 30 1 available to the general public. So, I think the County 2 might want to take a look at -- or we may want to take a 3 look at how better to advise the public about when the burn 4 ban is off, for example. On 27, if we were to do this 5 signage at the corner of 27 and 480, it could very easily 6 indicate whether or not the burn ban is on or off for 7 Precinct 2 or 3, because so many people traverse that way 8 and -- and have an opportunity to see that. 9 I think another important element of this, 10 too, is that even though it gives each Commissioner the 11 opportunity or allows each Commissioner to suspend the burn 12 ban order within his precinct for a short period of time, 13 based on transitory conditions, it's not mandatory that the 14 Commissioner do that. If the Commissioner said, "I don't 15 want to do that," he doesn't have to do that, 16 notwithstanding what the weather conditions may or may not 17 have been. I think that's an important element, too. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further discussion? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: On the signage thing, 20 just one last thing I forgot to mention is I -- I'm going to 21 talk with the TexDOT folks and see if we might come up with 22 some help there on the major thoroughfares. Of course, for 23 some flip-down signs or flip-up signs or something like 24 that, that's something that the -- that the fire chiefs 25 mentioned, which I think would be a good idea if we can do 31 1 it and have them in the right-of-ways of the major 2 thoroughfares. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It all sounds really good 4 to me. I couldn't be happier on this. The only thing I 5 think we might want to add is under the -- in the first 6 paragraph -- and it's getting really late in the year, so it 7 may not be that applicable, but the U.S.D.A. prescribed 8 burns, if we should -- maybe it's listed as, I guess, you 9 know, under the agricultural crops, maybe under that, but we 10 maybe should -- 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: This was lifted right 12 out of our current resolution format, and I think that's 13 where we say that is. Now, we may want to change that a bit 14 to -- 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: I believe the current 16 resolution has a specific exclusion for -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Prescribed burns. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- prescribed burns. And I 19 think what Jonathan is suggesting -- I think it's a good 20 idea -- is add a sentence at the end of the first paragraph 21 which mirrors what we have now, which says prescribed burns, 22 pursuant to a plan approved by the U.S.D.A., are -- are not 23 encompassed by the -- 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- broad ban. 32 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's great. 2 The other condition -- I guess, comment is that I think the 3 Commissioners all need to remember that our precincts don't 4 anywhere come close to following fire departments. You've 5 got to remember the likely fighting area for the fire 6 department's not where they're located. I don't think I 7 have any volunteer fire departments in my precinct, but I -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're in Comfort. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've got -- Comfort, Elm 10 Pass, Center Point, and the City of Kerrville, you know, 11 surround me. So, I think that, you know, you -- each of us 12 need to remember who's going to likely go to the fire in 13 your area, and not where they're located. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think, you know, 15 that's a really good point. And, most of the time, if 16 there's some consideration about suspending it in the 17 eastern part of the county, it would make sense -- you and I 18 talked about it as well as for those fires chiefs. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, from a practical 20 standpoint -- I mean, it's -- it's usually -- I can see, as 21 to the way they're configured right now, 2 and 3 would 22 probably act in concert, and probably 1 and 4. I'm just -- 23 from a standpoint of -- it's hard to imagine that 2 would 24 have rain and 3 wouldn't, or vice-versa. But, we can work 25 that out. 33 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In your sample letter, 2 your example here, you lifted the burn ban for three days. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there a minimum or 5 a maximum? 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. I talked to the 7 Bandera guys about that, too, and they said they -- they 8 said -- we talked about it, and they said, "Generally, what 9 we do is 48 hours or 72 hours." But, they said that's not 10 hard and fast, and said it probably -- "Usually, you're not 11 going to go over three days," they said, but -- "We don't," 12 they said. But there's no reason not to, because you're 13 immediately -- as the second paragraph says, as soon as you 14 think it -- if you think it ought to be suspended earlier, I 15 mean, the suspension ought to be dropped earlier, you can do 16 that, too. 17 So, you lay it out for three days, and if, 18 hey, boy, the wind's blowing and temperatures and 19 humidity -- the temperature is up, we're going to stop -- 20 you know, we're going to abandon the suspension right now 21 and go back to the burn ban. You can do that, too. So -- 22 and I put it as a time certain, because if you say 72 hours, 23 well, that depends exactly when the thing got signed and all 24 of that. So, I -- after talking with the guys in Bandera, I 25 said, Hey, I think it -- what do you think about the idea of 34 1 putting a time certain that that suspension goes away? And 2 they said that's probably the best way to do it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Larry, there was 4 another point that came out of the fire chief meeting that 5 had to do with when it begins on any given day, the 6 suspension. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And yours proposed, 9 you know, around 10 o'clock in the morning or something like 10 that, and some of the thoughts were that it should begin 11 maybe 12 6 o'clock in the morning with starting it, because of 13 early-morning opportunities to burn. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. And, one of 15 the things that -- and, of course, you'll get this -- if you 16 go for a suspension, you'll try to get it -- the suspension 17 because it's raining or whatever, you'll try to get that 18 suspension in and get it suspended as fast as you can. But, 19 when do you have it go off? We talked about various times. 20 Well, it may be better to have it go off real early in the 21 morning, so that if somebody does start a fire there, you've 22 got a whole day to get the thing out and taken care of and 23 so on. But, we may want to -- we want to -- the fire chiefs 24 want to think about that a little bit, and so do I. But we 25 can always set a time certain, and if that doesn't -- if the 35 1 early morning time certain doesn't work, then we'll try 2 something else. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And my final comments on 4 this, with the current weather today and the hopeful weather 5 for the next two to three days, do you want this to go into 6 effect now, and then suspend it tomorrow if -- if we get any 7 rain? 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, I would. I tell 9 you what I would like to propose, and this will take two 10 motions, I think, Judge, but what I'd like to do is I would 11 like to -- I'd like to make a motion that we adopt this new 12 format with the U.S.D.A. sentence in there, and then I would 13 like to make another motion that we -- that we cancel the 14 order that's in effect now and reestablish it under this 15 one. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. I'll 17 second that first one. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, my first motion 19 is -- is that we adopt the new resolution format with -- as 20 drafted here, with the addition of that sentence regarding 21 the U.S.D.A. burns in the top paragraph. I guess that's it. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 24 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that we adopt the 25 form of the resolution outlining the order restricting 36 1 outdoor burning with the amendment of the U.S.D.A. 2 prescribed burn authorization. Any further discussion? 3 AUDIENCE: To whom do we call now to get 4 permission to burn? Commissioners Court or 911 or who? 5 I've got piles I've been wanting to burn for quite some 6 time. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: If we adopt the resolution, 8 you'll be able to contact 911 -- 9 AUDIENCE: Tomorrow? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- or the Sheriff's 11 Department or your Commissioner to see whether or not the 12 burn ban is in effect in your precinct. Those are three 13 sources that you can contact. 14 AUDIENCE: Starting tomorrow? 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We are not lifting the 16 burn ban at this point, so it's still -- there's still a 17 burn ban on today when you walk out of here. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, yes. At this point, 19 there is. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: At this point, there 21 is. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about -- what 23 about the phone number -- 911; that was a dumb question. Do 24 they call 911? 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. No. No. No. 37 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The -- what T. Sandlin 3 had said was that they had phone lines available and a 4 recording capability, so that -- and I'll go work that with 5 him. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we need to make 7 that as a separate announcement. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That will be a 9 separate announcement. We'd hope to get that publicized at 10 the right time, but right now none of that has changed. 11 We'll have to get that set up, and we would have a -- I 12 think that's good, because there is somebody there all the 13 time. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like it. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That takes it out of 16 the administrative side and puts it sort of on the -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'll have a 18 1-800-BURN BAN? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 238 or whatever; 20 257-BURN. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: As long as it cuts down on 22 the number of phone calls to the Judge's office, I'm -- 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Cuts down on the 24 number of phone calls to the Judge's office and to the 25 Commissioners' offices, as well. But, yeah, that should 38 1 work. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is there any further 3 discussion on the motion on the table? If not, all in 4 favor, raise your right hand. 5 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Judge, I'd like to 9 make another motion, that we cancel the current burn ban 10 resolution and that we reinstitute it immediately under the 11 new format. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll second that, with 13 the comment that we need to always be mindful of canceling 14 those -- those orders that are already on the books. You 15 know, we don't do that near enough, and every opportunity 16 that we have to cancel an old order, to clean that up, I 17 would appreciate it. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 19 Griffin, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that we cancel the 20 existing order as it's instituting the burn ban and 21 immediately adopt an order instituting a burn ban under the 22 new system. Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, 23 raise your right hand. 24 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 39 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: So that everyone understands, 3 we have now reimposed a county-wide burn ban for 90 days. 4 The only existing exception is prescribed burns pursuant to 5 a plan approved by the U.S.D.A. Each of the Commissioners 6 sitting here now has the authority to request a suspension 7 of the burn ban in their particular precinct. But, the -- 8 from this moment, there is a county-wide burn ban in effect, 9 except for U.S.D.A. prescribed plans, and any Commissioner 10 who so elects to lift the burn ban in their precinct will 11 have to request that approval from myself, as County Judge, 12 after consultation with the volunteer fire departments in 13 the precinct. And, once I sign off on it, then that will be 14 publicized and published, and that information will be 15 available initially from our office and from the Sheriff's 16 Department, and then once we work out the mechanism, that 17 will be available through a specific phone number operated 18 through the 911 system. I just want to make sure that 19 everyone understood where we are right now, and where we're 20 going. Okay. 21 Moving on, Item Number 2, consider the 22 preliminary plan for Buckhorn Lake Resort, Precinct 4. 23 Commissioner Griffin. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mr. Johnston? 25 MR. JOHNSTON: This is a long-awaited 40 1 drainage study that we finally received, I think y'all have 2 a copy of it, or at least have a plat that shows the 3 boundary of the floodplain in that particular property. I 4 think we have here today Charlie Digges and Mr. 5 Christiansen; they might want to make a presentation on 6 where they're at. I know there's some development going on, 7 and inside the white area there, not in the floodplain -- 8 like, some of it's in the floodplain, but all the building 9 is in the white part. So, do you want to make -- 10 MR. DIGGES: I'd like to talk -- address the 11 Court. My name's Charlie Digges. I'm with Guadalupe Survey 12 Company and Guadalupe Basin Water Company. I have with us 13 today Dee Christiansen, who is the developer of the project, 14 and then Lee Line with Vordenbaum Engineering, who's been 15 active in the flood study. I'm going to do a handout to you 16 all, because this is a little unusual development, in that 17 you're seeing a number of tracts -- I believe there's six, 18 but they're all going to be the same owner. There's not 19 going to be the sale of any of those properties, and I'm 20 going to explain why in a few minutes here. 21 One of the things we're trying to achieve in 22 this project is not have any tract where there's over 5,000 23 gallons a day that's discharged within its boundaries, and 24 that all the -- the collection, treatment, and disposal 25 facilities for that treatment system is contained within 41 1 that tract; they don't cross any boundary lines. So, that's 2 why you're seeing tracts that are in really unusual shapes. 3 You typically -- if you were going to sell a parcel, you 4 would want to make it more, usually, rectangular. And, so, 5 now you have long, skinny corridors in some instances 6 that -- that carry the effluent from the place where it's 7 generated to the place where it's going to be treated and 8 disposed of. 9 This -- this project is -- is an R.V. -- a 10 high-end R.V. park, similar to what you have with Guadalupe 11 River R.V. Park. The first phase contains 93 spaces, the 12 second 95, and then the third phase would be 70. All those 13 phases are designed in a fashion not to generate more than 14 5,000 gallons a day. If we -- if we go over that, we have 15 to go through Austin, a long permitting process that is 16 involved with them. And, the second aspect is that they're 17 more in tune with -- you do a large treatment facility and 18 you discharge into a creek after you reach secondary or 19 tertiary treatment levels. We don't want to do that. We 20 don't want to discharge into -- into Goat Creek. So, our 21 method is going to still highly treat the effluent, and then 22 further polish it by land application, some surface 23 discharge method. And, great pains have been taken to 24 design the wastewater system to protect Goat Creek, and 25 there has been a -- a permit issued for the first phase 42 1 based on, you know, our design. 2 Then, your -- in your packet, I've given you 3 the -- the first page is from T.N.R.C.C. giving the ability 4 for you to separate those tracts out. You can have 5 adjoining tracts that have common ownership, and that is 6 illustrated in that first page of that handout there. The 7 second page is the regulation that we're trying to comply 8 with. It's the asterisk in the middle of the page where it 9 says no -- one or more systems, treatment devices, or 10 disposal facilities that cumulatively produce more than 11 5,000 gallons of sewage per day on one piece of property. 12 In other words, we have to stay within those confines to 13 stay within these rules. 14 And, then the -- there is a current -- the 15 third page will illustrate a current development that's 16 being handled the same way. And, I don't know if anybody 17 was on the Court -- perhaps, Buster, you were; I'm not sure, 18 when -- when Windmill Communities was developed. It was 19 developed as one large parcel, with the understanding that 20 we would be creating phases within it and creating the metes 21 and bounds descriptions that go into the Real Property 22 Records that would allow us to not exceed that 5,000 gallons 23 a day per acre. The -- the difference between Windmill 24 Communities and this one is the owners of Windmill 25 Communities didn't realize or didn't -- didn't know where 43 1 they wanted their phases to be, and so they didn't want to 2 plat all their phases up front; whereas Mr. Christiansen 3 does understand that, and -- and we thought it would be 4 simpler and cleaner to just go ahead and plat it all, and 5 that way we'd have it in picture form in the -- in the 6 public land records for that purpose. 7 So, we have a -- how we handle that with Windmill, we do an 8 affidavit to the public and then we attach a field note 9 description. 10 And, then, on the -- the final sheet of that 11 handout is where the concept of -- and the final plat for 12 Windmill Communities was approved by Commissioners Court 13 back in October of 1994. But, I wanted to talk about this a 14 little bit, because I thought there may be other 15 developments that are being handled this way, but I wasn't 16 sure that y'all had seen this concept, and I wanted to make 17 sure that, you know, y'all understood how we were proceeding 18 with it. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there going to be any 20 regular monitoring plan in Goat Creek, just to test the 21 water, or -- 22 MR. DIGGES: No. There would -- there's 23 going to be monitoring of the -- of the treatment systems 24 themselves. And, there's a mandatory maintenance contract 25 where we'll be visiting that facility once a month to -- to 44 1 take these samples and to make sure the system's operating 2 properly. Most of the -- the disposal is going to be done 3 on the west side of the -- of Goat Creek, high in the higher 4 end, and so it's going to be, oh, probably as much as a 5 quarter mile away from the creek, itself, where most of the 6 water's going to be treated and disposed of. And then it's 7 being treated by a Class 1, NSF-approved aerobic system, 8 several of them. We designed this not for the flow. We 9 could have a lot less treatment units than we do, but we're 10 designing it for the organic loading that we're expecting, 11 because the R.V.'s generate more concentrated effluent, 12 especially when they come in and they dump after being on 13 the road for a day or two. So, it's been designed with that 14 organic loading in mind. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One other question. Is 16 this a -- are there any water wells on the property? And 17 does this affect the wells in any way, either on the 18 property or off the property? 19 MR. DIGGES: I believe there's a current 20 well, and then there's one that is contemplated that you're 21 working on, Dee? And -- and, in most instances, we've -- 22 you know, I think over on Tract 6 is going to be where the 23 new well is going to be, and you can see that we've got the 24 150-foot radius that's contained within the tract itself, 25 and no wastewater is contemplated being generated or 45 1 disposed of on -- on that particular tract. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, this will have the 3 community water system? 4 MR. DIGGES: Yes. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: As opposed to individual 6 wells? 7 MR. DIGGES: Yes, that's right. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Charlie, I see on 9 this plat here at least 10 different tracts; is that 10 correct? Although they're numbered Roman numeral numbers I 11 through IV, V, some of them are repeated. So, I'm looking 12 at ten different tracts, all combined, and do I assume that 13 each of those tracts can have an individual on-site 14 wastewater system, and that may treat and dispose of up to 15 5,000 gallons of wastewater per day? Is that correct? 16 MR. DIGGES: I think what's happening there 17 is there are really six tracts that are being platted, 18 and -- and the sixth one is the well site, and none is 19 contemplated being generated or disposed of there for 20 wastewater, so you're really going to have five tracts that 21 can exceed 5,000 gallons a day. So, the maximum you're 22 going to discharge over this approximately 64 acres is going 23 to be 25,000 gallons a day. Now, those other tracts on 24 there just happened to use the same tract numbering as 25 Vordenbaum Engineering, and so some of those are actually 46 1 parcels that we describe that are outside of the 100-year 2 floodplain, as they determined it. And, it's just that we 3 have to produce for -- I guess it's FEMA's review and their 4 approval, we have to describe everything that's within the 5 project that's outside the 100-year floodplain. You'd 6 almost think it would be the opposite, but that's the way 7 it's done, so there's three parcels there, Commissioner 8 Williams, that are -- are strictly for floodplain purposes. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's talk about 10 hookups. How many hookups do you envision in these five 11 tracts that you have defined here? 12 MR. DIGGES: Okay. You're going to have in 13 -- in Tract 1, you're going to have 93. And, the State regs 14 are 40 gallons a day per space, so you're going to have 93 15 times your 40. And on Tract 2, you're going to have 95, and 16 so you have to do that math for that also. And then -- and 17 in Tract 3, there's going to be 70 spaces. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Seven-zero? 19 MR. DIGGES: Yes, that's right, seven-zero. 20 And for Tract 4, right at the intersection -- at the lower 21 intersection there of I-10 and Goat Creek Road, that's 22 contemplated at a future date as a convenience store and 23 fuel station, gas station. And, again, it's going to be 24 limited to 5,000 gallons a day. And it would be a leased 25 lot, as would Tract 5, which would have a -- a small motel 47 1 and restaurant. And, it would be limited to no more than 2 5,000 gallons a day, and not contemplated for -- for sale. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- I mean, obviously, 4 I mean, a lot of this -- T.N.R.C.C. certainly, wherever the 5 letter is, signed off on this. Did they see the plat? I 6 mean, they did not have a problem that you're circumventing 7 the rules with the configuration of the tracts? 8 MR. DIGGES: They haven't seen this project 9 in particular, but this is -- it's a situation that's 10 happening a lot around the state now, and they realize it's 11 going on. As a matter of fact, on another project 12 towards -- between Boerne and San Antonio, I called the 13 Municipal Section of T.N.R.C.C. that handles over 5,000 14 gallons a day, and -- because we thought we were going to 15 exceed 5,000 gallons a day on another project, and they even 16 suggested this method to us. So, it -- part of the problem 17 is, when you get over 5,000 gallons a day, you get two 18 different sections of T.N.R.C.C. that get into a turf war 19 about, you know, changing that -- that boundary line on 20 the -- the usage. 21 But, the other thing that's happening that's 22 causing pressure is that the on-site systems are becoming 23 more popular and more approved, even nationally. E.P.A. has 24 endorsed on-site systems to Congress in a -- in a 1997 25 report. So, they're gaining popularity, and yet the 48 1 Municipal Section isn't that familiar with those 2 technologies, and so they don't even like reviewing the 3 plans. A lot of times they get kicked back over to the 4 on-site section at the State level of T.N.R.C.C. So, they 5 haven't seen this project, in particular, but they know this 6 type of thing is -- is going on. And, I just had a recent 7 conversation with another fellow in Amarillo who is doing 8 the same process there, replatting, avoid having to go 9 through the Municipal Section. But, it seems to be 10 something that's, you know, tolerated within. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, there's no limits on 12 an acreage basis as to how much acreage you need for the 13 discharge of up to 5,000 gallons of effluent? 14 MR. DIGGES: Well, we're within the spirit -- 15 y'all do. The State doesn't. I mean, they have a minimum 16 lot size. If you're going to sell a lot of a half an acre, 17 and we have here, you know, one acre, you've got to have a 18 centralized wastewater system. But, here in our county, we 19 have a rule in Chapter 10 of -- of our on-site regs that 20 states you don't want to have more than 500 gallons a day 21 per acre discharged. And, if do you the math on our 22 development here, you'd be taking 64 times your 5,000, and 23 you'd come up with -- I think that's going to be 32,000 24 gallons a day, and what we're projecting here is no more 25 than 25,000, so we're within the spirit of our own 49 1 regulations that way. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And, I think that 3 would be -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Regulations are 5 getting ready to change. Clearly, we're going to be 6 encouraging centralized collection systems, and my question 7 to you is, was a centralized collection system in a packaged 8 treatment plant considered for this? 9 MR. DIGGES: Well, this -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And if not, why not? 11 MR. DIGGES: All of these are centralized 12 systems, to a certain extent. We are collecting it into one 13 area and then transferring it to a treatment facility, and 14 then disposal. We're not -- we're not treating it right at 15 every -- every little -- every pad, every spot. We have -- 16 you know, if City water and sewer were -- were nearby, we 17 would go that route, but we're -- we're several miles remote 18 to that. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It appears to me that -- 20 I mean, the plan they have developed complies with our 21 current rules and T.N.R.C.C. rules, and, you know, it -- 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It controls the total 23 discharge for the total acreage. And that -- that, I think, 24 is the spirit of -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It does fit the 50 1 current regs. Yes, it does, I understand that. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Griffin, did you 3 have anything else you need to -- 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, I would just make 5 a motion that we -- oh, I do have a copy of the letter 6 that -- that U.G.R.A. sent to Judge Henneke about some 7 outstanding issues, that these would have to be -- are you 8 familiar with the letter I'm talking about, Charlie? 9 MR. DIGGES: I think. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It has to do with -- 11 that they have just gotten the floodplain studies. 12 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Just haven't had a 14 chance to really fully evaluate them. There was also an 15 issue of compliance with the recently constructed slab. 16 MR. DIGGES: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. Another issue 18 may be associated with floodplain/septic relationship, 19 whatever that means. I would just point out that I don't 20 think this would preclude us from approving the preliminary 21 plat, but that these issues would have to be -- obviously, 22 are going to have to be resolved. 23 MR. DIGGES: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Before they'll sign 25 off, so that we can sign off on the final plat. 51 1 MR. DIGGES: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And, with that note, I 3 would make a motion that we approve the preliminary plat. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'll second 5 that motion. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 7 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that we approve 8 the preliminary plat of Buckhorn Lake Resort. 9 Mr. Christiansen, do you have a comment? 10 MR. CHRISTIANSEN: Yes. I'd just like to 11 say -- first of all, I'd like to introduce myself as the 12 owner and developer. We're proud to be a part of Kerrville, 13 and we love the Hill Country; have been here almost a year 14 now. And, I think one of your logos I've seen somewhere is 15 the "crystal-clear, pure water of the Hill Country." And, 16 believe me, when we interviewed Charlie, we think we have a 17 sewage treatment facility that is far beyond anything 18 that -- that we needed to do. I mean, we think it's great. 19 And if there's any comments that you have related to it not 20 being great, I'd like to hear it, because we think it's a 21 super system. And, we also have a system that we can very 22 easily tie into a community system if and when it ever comes 23 out of Goat Creek, which we think it will, which we think 24 that's a natural way that the sewer system will -- will 25 drain, just like the rivers do, and it will go down there 52 1 because there's going to be a lot of development come from 2 Kerrville towards us. And, of course, at that time, we'd 3 love to tie onto the system. 4 And, again, I'd like to apologize for the 5 flood study taking so long. A lot of it's my fault, because 6 we've been designing what we think is a -- is a really 7 terrific facility, and Vordenbaum has been very instrumental 8 in helping us design it. And, we -- we're going to tear out 9 the existing dam, we're putting in a really nice new bridge 10 and all those things. We had to give him input before he 11 could give us input to tell us what we're doing, how it 12 affects the floodplain. We have one barn that's been 13 placed. We didn't think the barn was really critical to the 14 elevation of the floodplain, 'cause we didn't think it was a 15 habitable structure, and we didn't -- didn't think it 16 mattered, but I find out it does matter. So, if -- if our 17 floodplain, in tweaking it, doesn't lower it 17/100's of an 18 inch, our floodplain, we're going to have to put a 4-inch 19 topping slab on our barn to come within compliance, which is 20 part of that letter that you received from Charlie 21 Wiedenfeld. But, anyway, we're -- we'd just like to say 22 thanks for -- for considering our deal, and we're proud to 23 be a part of the community, and we hope we do a nice 24 project. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, sir. Appreciate 53 1 that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I had one other comment, 3 which is, I know -- I drive by occasionally; there's a lot 4 of work that's been done, and the County Engineer -- 5 Franklin, have you been out there? Are you comfortable 6 with, I guess, the new road construction and more the 7 infrastructure not related to -- to the water, but other 8 things that you generally look at during a construction 9 phase of a subdivision? 10 MR. JOHNSTON: I have been out there. All 11 the -- all the roads -- I don't think the roads are actually 12 developed yet. They're putting in pads where the -- where 13 the R.V.'s will park. All the roads that they will develop 14 will exceed our standards. I think you'll put in hot mix 15 or -- or hot mix asphalt. But, they are all private, 16 anyway. So, you know, we'll inspect them, but they're not 17 subject to our maintenance. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you're recommending 19 approval? 20 MR. JOHNSTON: I have. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everything looks good 22 from your standpoint? 23 MR. JOHNSTON: Looks good to me. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. We have a motion 25 on the table. Any further discussion? If not, all in 54 1 favor, raise your right hand. 2 (Commissioners Baldwin, Letz, and Griffin indicated by raised hands that they were 3 in favor of the motion.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 5 (Commissioner Williams indicated by raised hand that he was opposed to the motion.) 6 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hold on. I'm going 9 to vote against it, but I want to make a comment against it. 10 I understand that Charlie did a very good job, and Franklin 11 signed off on it. Mr. Christiansen has put a lot of time, 12 effort, and money into it, but I think this concept flies in 13 the face of where we want to go in Kerr County on septics. 14 And, on the basis of principle alone, I'm not going to 15 support it. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. All right, I thank 17 you. At this time, we're going to take up Item 2 .7, which 18 is a public hearing which was posted for 10 o'clock. After 19 we do the public hearing on the abandonment of platted road 20 easements, we'll take up the order abandoning the platted 21 roads easements. We will then open the bids for equipment, 22 which was also posted for 10 o'clock, and it will probably 23 be time for a break after that. 24 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:17 a.m., and a public hearing 25 was held in open court, as follows:) 55 1 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, at this time, the Court 3 will go into recess. We'll announce and open the public 4 hearing concerning abandonment of platted road easements in 5 Japonica Hills: Sendero, Deer Hollow, Javelina Point, Lisa 6 Lane, and number five, an unnamed road easement along the 7 northwest edge of Lot 6. Commissioner Griffin, would you 8 like to make an introductory statement? 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. The Court will 10 recall that this was an issue that we discussed, I guess, a 11 month ago or thereabouts, where there was a petition in 12 accordance with our -- with our rules from 100 percent of 13 the landowners in the Japonica Hills Subdivision that 14 requested this abandonment, which was in accordance with our 15 rules. We've had -- we've had -- I've had several meetings. 16 I think I understand all of the abandonments, that this is 17 going to certainly tighten up the -- the whole subdivision 18 for owners there, and it's something that I think we're 19 ready to move on as soon as we get back into Court session. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Are there any members of the 21 public who would like to address us in this public hearing 22 regarding the issue of abandonment of platted road easements 23 in Japonica Hills Subdivision that we've previously 24 announced? 25 (No response.) 56 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Once again, I'll ask if there 2 are any members of the public who are here to participate in 3 this public hearing on the abandonment of the platted road 4 easements in Japonica Hills Subdivision. Going once, going 5 twice. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: For the third time, are there 8 any citizens here who want to address the Court in this 9 public hearing on the issue of abandonment of the platted 10 road easements in Japonica Hills Subdivision? 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Hearing and seeing none, I 13 will declare the public hearing closed. 14 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:20 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 15 meeting was reopened.) 16 - - - - - - - - - - 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: We will return to regular 18 Commissioners Court session and take up Item 2.8, which is 19 consider and discuss an order abandoning platted road 20 easements in Japonica Hills Subdivision: Sendero, Deer 21 Hollow, Javelina Point, Lisa Lane, and an unnamed road 22 easement along the northwest edge of Lot 6. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'll make a motion 24 that we do approve the abandonment of platted roads as 25 mentioned in your -- 57 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 3 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 4 adopt an order abandoning the platted road easements in 5 Japonica Hills Subdivision easements, being, number one, 6 Sendero; number two, Deer Hollow; Number three, Javelina 7 Point, number four, Lisa Lane; and number five, an unnamed 8 road easement along the northwest edge of Lot 6. Mr. 9 Johnston, do you have any comment on this issue, sir? 10 MR. JOHNSTON: I'd recommend -- recommend 11 approval. A hundred percent of the landowners in the 12 subdivision signed off, so I see no objections. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, thank you. I believe, 14 by law, this requires unanimous vote of all Commissioners, 15 so at this time, if there's no further discussion, all in 16 favor, raise your right hand. 17 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let the record reflect that 21 the vote was unanimous. Next we'll go to Item 2.6, which is 22 open and consider the annual bids for equipment by the hour, 23 aggregate, corrugated metal pipe, asphalt emulsions, and 24 base material. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Want me to open and hand 58 1 them to you? Looks like a big stack. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: First bid we have is from 3 James D. Reeh, R-e-e-h, in Comfort. Grade 1 -- this is for 4 the base material. Grade 1, Type A, $5.20. Grade 2, 5 Type A, $5. No bid on B or C. On the f.o.b. Kerr County, 6 Grade A, $13.23. Grade 2, $13.03. No bids on B or C. 7 Second bid is from Henry Griffin 8 Construction. f.o.b. supplier's plant: Type A, Grade 1, 9 no bid; Grade 2, no bid. Type B, $10 for Grade 1; $10 per 10 cubic yard for Grade 2. Type C, $10, and also $10. 11 f.o.b. Kerr County: Grade 1, no bid for Type A. Type B, 12 $14 per cubic yard; also for Grade 2. Type C, $14 per cubic 13 yard for Grade 1 and Grade 2. That's from Henry Griffin 14 Construction. 15 Third bid is from also from Henry Griffin 16 Construction. This is on paving aggregates. Type A, $10. 17 Type A limestone, $10. Type A, supplier's plant, Grade 5 -- 18 Type A, Grade 5, $10. Type B, Grade 3, $10. Type B, Grade 19 4, $10. Type B, 5, $10. No bids on the remainder of the 20 aggregates. 21 Next item -- next bid is from Drymala Sand 22 and Gravel in Comfort. This is, again, on aggregate. Type 23 A, Grades 3, 4, and 5, no bids. Type B, Grade 3, no bids. 24 Type B, Grade 4, $7.50 per cubic yard. Type B, Grade 5, 25 $6.50 per cubic yard. No bids on the remainder of the 59 1 requests. 2 Next bid is from the Westrate Environmental. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is part of that, 4 Judge. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: I've got a very impressive 7 package here, but I don't find any numbers. It says right 8 there on the front page -- does that say the application's 9 for portable crushing machine? 10 MR. ODOM: What? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Application for portable 12 crushing permit? 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: This appears to be not a bid, 14 but some other administrative matter which I, quite frankly, 15 know nothing about. So, we're going to set these aside for 16 now and try to focus on the bids. Here we have a -- a bid 17 from Martin Marietta Materials out of San Antonio. This is 18 on aggregate Type A, Grade 3 -- 3, 4, and 5. Type B, 3 -- 19 Grades 3, 4, and 5 are all $13.16 per cubic yard. Type PB, 20 Grades 3, 4, and 5, is $35.09 per cubic yard. There's no 21 bid on trap rock. 22 On the emulsions, there were no bids on the 23 emulsions. The corrugated metal pipe, there are no bids on 24 corrugated metal pipe. That appears to be all of the items 25 that Martin Marietta Materials has -- 60 1 MR. ODOM: Must be hauling from Georgia. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm sorry? 3 MR. ODOM: That last bid sounds like they're 4 hauling from Georgia. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. This bid is 6 from -- again, from Martin Marietta. This is for base 7 materials. Type A crushed limestone, Grade 1, $5.06 per 8 cubic yard. Grade 2, $4.39 per cubic yard. No other bids 9 on f.o.b. supplier's plant. And, f.o.b. Kerr County, Type A 10 is $14.84. That's Grade 1. Type A, Grade 2, is $14.16. 11 Okay. 12 Next bid is from Vulcan Materials Company out 13 of San Antonio. This is on paving aggregate. There are no 14 bids for Type A or Type B. Type PB, all three grades are 15 $27.99 per cubic yard. Trap rock, all three grades are 16 $30.20 per cubic yard. 17 MR. ODOM: Cubic yard, right, Judge? 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. C.Y., right. The next 19 bid comes from G.S.C. -- G.S.A.C., Gulf States Asphalt 20 Company, out of Houston. No bid on paving aggregate. On 21 emulsions, CRS-2 is .88 per gallon. HFRS is .88 per gallon. 22 No bid on AEP. There's a note here that says minimum number 23 of 5,000 gallons. No bid on the corrugated metal. That's 24 all from Houston. 25 Next bid is from Wheatcraft, Inc., here in 61 1 Kerrville. On base material, no grades -- no bids on Grade 2 1 on f.o.b. supplier's plant. Grade 2, $6.08, Type A. $5 3 for Type B. Type C is $4. They have some notes which will 4 have to be evaluated in conjunction with the bid. 5 Next bid is also from Wheatcraft. It's for 6 paving aggregate. Type A, Grade 3, $7 per cubic yard. No 7 bid for Type A, Grade 4. Type A, Grade 5, is also $7. Type 8 B, Grade 3, is $8. Type B, Grade 4, is $8.50. Type B, 9 Grade 5, is $7.50. There are no bids on PB or trap rock. 10 Next bid comes to us from Smith Mines in 11 Uvalde. This is for paving aggregate. Type A, Grade 3, 12 $9.18. Type A, Grade 4, $9.24. Type A, Grade 3, $9.30. 13 Type B, Grade 3, $9.18. Type B, Grade 4, $9.24. Type B, 14 Grade 5, $9.30. On PB, Grade 3, $18.48. Grade 4, $18.99. 15 No bid on Grade 5. And there's no bid on trap rock. 16 There's a note on the bid, "Product available June, Year 17 2000." 18 MR. ODOM: Sir, was that a ton or a cubic 19 yard? Do you recall? 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's -- your bid is C.Y. So 21 -- 22 MR. ODOM: C.Y. Okay, cubic yard. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's how I'm reading them. 24 The next bid is from Conch Materials in San Antonio. Is it 25 my imagination, or do we have significantly more bids this 62 1 year than we have in the past? No bids for aggregates. On 2 emulsions, CRS-2, .8623 per gallon. HFRS-2, .8623. And 3 AEP, .9923. No other bids from them. 4 Next we have a bid from Champion Asphalt 5 Products. No bid on aggregate. On emulsions, CRS-2 is .73. 6 HFRS-2,.73. AEP, .88. No other bids from that company. 7 Next we have CoBar Enterprises out of 8 Navasota. They have a bid on equipment by-the-hour. Under 9 optional bid, asphalt distributor, a 14-foot spray bar, 10 3,600-gallon unheated, 91 Ford F-900. Age of equipment is 11 nine years. Unit cost is $65 per hour. Meets 12 specifications, they have a "yes" there. On the emulsions, 13 under AEP, they have $2.50 per gallon, with a number of 14 other qualifiers. Minimum 5,200 gallons per load, which 15 will have to be taken into consideration in evaluating the 16 bid. 17 Next bid is from Ergon Asphalt and Emulsions 18 out of Austin. No bid on aggregate. On the emulsions, 19 CRS-2, .7375 per gallon. The HFRS-2, .7375 per gallon. 20 AEP, .9075 per gallon. 21 Next bid is from Texas Fuel and Asphalt out 22 of Corpus Christi. Their bid -- no bid on aggregate. On 23 emulsions, it's CRS-2, .88. HFRS-2, .88. AEP, .88. And 24 those are their only bids. 25 Next bid is from Bridges Asphalt Products, 63 1 Inc., from Garland. On emulsions, CRS-2, .93. HFRS .89. 2 AEP, point -- it's $1.05. 1.05 3 The next bid is from Wilson Culverts, Inc., 4 out of Elkhart. This is for corrugated metal pipe. 15-inch 5 arch design, 4 point -- $4.96. 18-inch arch, Type 2, $5.95. 6 24-inch arch, Type 3, $7.92. 30-inch arch, Type 4, $9.91. 7 15-degree coupling bands, $4.96. 18, $5.95. 24 coupling 8 bands, $7.92. 30 coupling bands, $9.91. 9 Next is from Contech Construction Products 10 from San Antonio. Again, on corrugated metal pipe, 11 15-inch -- or 15 arch, $5.25. 18, $6.25. 24, $8.28. 30, 12 $10.40. 15 coupling bands, $6.80. 18, $8.10. 24, $10.75. 13 30, $13.50. 14 Next is from Walters Building and Supply in 15 Fredericksburg. Again, for corrugated metal pipe. 15-inch 16 arch, $4.85. 18, $5.82. 24, $7.74. 30, $9.70. 15 17 coupling bands, $7 each. 18, $8 each. 24, $11.60. And 30, 18 $14.50. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three to go, Judge. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next we have from Buckhorn 21 Lake Resort -- Schwarz Construction Company -- okay, Schwarz 22 Construction Company. This is for equipment by-the-hour. 23 The Cat D-6, it's going to give the cost, $65. Scraper, $75 24 per hour. Cat 12-G motor grader, $65 per hour. 930 loader, 25 $70 per hour. 12-ton flat wheel roller, $50 per hour. 64 1 12-ton pneumatic loader, $48 per hour. 1,500-gallon water 2 truck, $45 per hour. With no optional bids. 3 Next is from C.C.S., Inc, Christiansen 4 Construction Services. Equipment by-the-hour. Cat D-6, 5 $90.20 per hour. Scraper, $92.35. Cat 12-G motor grader, 6 $78.20. 930 loader, $67.50. 12-ton flat wheel roller, 7 $68.50. 12-ton pneumatic roller, $68.70. 1,500-gallon 8 water truck, $59. Under optional bid, 140-G motor grader, 9 $89.60 per hour. D-7 dozer with gripper, $110.70 per hour. 10 D-3 dozer with gripper, $65.90 per hour. Scraper, $118.20 11 per hour. Loader 950 -- 900 -- $89.50 per hour. 12 And, the last bid is from Edmund Jenschke on, 13 again, the equipment by-the-hour. Cat D-6, $80 per hour. 14 Scraper, $85 per hour. Cat 12-G motor grader, $76 per hour. 15 930 loader, $80 per hour. 12-ton flat wheel roller, $78 per 16 hour. 12-ton pneumatic roller, $60 per hour. 1,500-gallon 17 water truck, $55 per hour. Under optional bid, asphalt 18 distributor, $100 per hour. Chip spreader, $100 per hour. 19 140-G motor grader, $78 per hour. D-7 dozer, $120 per hour. 20 D-3 dozer, $65 per hour. Scraper, $120 per hour. 21 Those are the bids received in response to 22 our request. Do I have a motion to accept all the bids and 23 refer them to Road and Bridge Department for evaluation and 24 recommendation? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 65 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 4 seconded by Commissioner Williams, that we accept all the 5 bids for equipments by-the-hour, aggregate, corrugated metal 6 pipe, asphalt emulsions, and base material, and refer them 7 to the County Engineer and the Road and Bridge Department 8 for evaluation and recommendation to the Court. Any further 9 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 10 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well-done, Judge. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: With the able assistance of 16 Commissioner Letz. Leonard? 17 MR. ODOM: Sir? 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do y'all have an estimation 19 of when you will be prepared to come back? 20 MR. ODOM: We'll, I'm -- as soon as we get 21 that, we'll put -- that's a lot, I don't know. I couldn't 22 give you a guarantee. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is a lot. It's 24 good. 25 MR. ODOM: And I've got to put it on 66 1 spreadsheet and look at it, analyze it. I hear some people 2 bidding stuff they don't even have. I mean, you know, and I 3 know the vendors, so I -- I know they don't have it. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: What I would request that you 5 do is -- is, if you think you can have them ready either 6 this afternoon or tomorrow, please let us know before, 7 say -- before we break, and I'm not sure if we'll be done by 8 noon or not. If you can have them ready tomorrow or this 9 afternoon, rather than adjourning, we'll recess, and we can 10 reconvene within 24 hours in order to take up this matter. 11 So, it's your schedule. If you want to do it that quickly, 12 let us know. Otherwise, we'll have to repost a meeting and 13 take it up in the normal course of business. 14 MR. ODOM: To be quite honest with you, I 15 still have a contract running for a little bit here, and 16 they're a little bit cheaper than some of the things I've 17 already heard. So -- 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, the time's up to you. 19 If you want us to take it up today or tomorrow, you need to 20 let us know before we -- 21 MR. ODOM: I'll let you know. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- before we conclude our 23 business today. Otherwise, we can take it up in two weeks. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or three weeks, four 25 weeks. 67 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's up to you, okay? 2 (Discussion off the record.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: We're going to take -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I make an 5 announcement? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Certainly. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I'd just like 8 to make an announcement. It's my understanding we have 9 received a phone call that Fox News television network is en 10 route to here to cover the S.O.B. program, which is rightly 11 named, the sexually-oriented business deal that we're going 12 to deal with here in just a little while. I did not receive 13 the phone call, but our secretary did. So, y'all powder 14 your noses. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Lets take a quick break if we 16 can and come back at 10:45. 17 (Recess taken from 10:37 a.m. to 10:45 a.m.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's 10:45, and we will 20 reconvene this regular meeting of the Kerr County 21 Commissioners Court. At this time, without any -- if 22 there's no objection, we've had a request to take up Item 23 2.9 and Item 2.10, if there's no objection from the Court. 24 Item 2.9 is consider and discuss Kerr County support for the 25 concept of affordable rental housing within the City of 68 1 Kerrville by MacDonald and Associates. Commissioner 2 Williams. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I acknowledge 4 that the project that we're about to discuss is really in 5 Commissioner Griffin's neck of the woods. The gentleman 6 who's doing this has a home and office in Precinct 2, and 7 that's why I put it on the agenda. I'd like to introduce 8 Mr. Granger MacDonald, who is -- he and his company are 9 proposing Heritage Oaks, an affordable rental housing 10 complex in the city of Kerrville. Mr. MacDonald? 11 MR. MACDONALD: Thank you very much. I think 12 you're -- most of you are aware of -- of the first phase 13 that we've already completed, Kerrville Meadows, which is a 14 project for the elderly. This is not government-assisted 15 housing, it's not Section 8. It's not done with Welfare 16 dollars or anything like that. It's done strictly by 17 private enterprise. The project that we finished this last 18 summer sits right here. What we're talking about is another 19 community of 76 units. It has the old house which has been 20 up on top of the hill for quite some time; it's the Rose 21 House. And, if -- you've probably been by there. Every one 22 of these trees is the actual location of the existing oak 23 trees on the site. We've located all the oak trees for a 24 specific reason; we're not cutting any of them down. We're 25 saving every tree that's existing on the site, and we're 69 1 also saving the old house. 2 I think y'all are aware of the -- the Rose 3 House. The Rose House was built between 1906 and 1908. 4 It's one of last structures in Kerr County that's made out 5 of the old Basse stone. This was handmade stone on the 6 site. This is the old house here. We intend to restore the 7 old house and make it our -- our community center and our 8 office, and keep it in its -- its original character and 9 motif. We have applied for historical zoning from the State 10 for it. We're not asking for any tax credits or tax 11 write-offs or amenities or abatements for -- for property 12 taxes. We just want to keep the old house like it is and 13 make sure that it's not ever torn down or destroyed. 14 What we intend to build for the rest of our 15 apartments are two-bedroom and three-bedroom homes. They're 16 four-plexes. As you can see from our site plan, we have a 17 very low density, less than eight units per acre, and will 18 be a similar design and format of what we built there last 19 summer. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Which has been very 21 successful, I believe. 22 MR. MACDONALD: We have been very successful, 23 and it's been a heck of a need, especially for the elderly, 24 to have something affordable in the community. There's not 25 a lot that you can rent that's brand-new for $400 a month in 70 1 Kerrville, Texas. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And this is 3 apportioned on the basis of so many units to a -- to various 4 median-income categories; is that correct? 5 MR. MACDONALD: Yes, sir. We -- our rents 6 will be based on 50 and 60 percent of the area median 7 income. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You need an addition 9 to a proposed resolution from the Commissioners Court. You 10 also need -- plan to obtain one from the City of Kerrville. 11 Is that correct, Mr. MacDonald? 12 MR. MACDONALD: Yes, sir. We have all of our 13 zoning, all of our utilities are in place. And, of course, 14 our plat's on file with the County. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Griffin, do you 16 have anything you want to add at this time? 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. I -- of course, 18 I've watched the first phase or section or whatever you call 19 it come up, and that's sure looking good. And I think it's 20 been a real boon to the community. 21 MR. MACDONALD: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Go ahead. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. My only 71 1 comment or question is -- is, why is it -- why is it the 2 City hasn't done some kind of resolution before we're -- 3 you're asking us to do a resolution for something that's 4 going on in the city. I'm a little uncomfortable with that. 5 MR. MACDONALD: Two reasons. One, y'all meet 6 on Monday and they meet on Tuesday. We're only -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They need to change 8 their meeting days. 9 MR. MACDONALD: Well, I'll take that up with 10 the old City Manager, since he's not here any longer. The 11 second reason that I came before y'all is y'all are the 12 group that has the Historical Registry. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 14 MR. MACDONALD: For the -- and what we want 15 to do is get y'all's support for us on the Historical 16 Registry, 'cause we want to save the building. That's the 17 primary reason we're here. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's the next agenda item. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the second 20 one. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further discussion or 22 comments for Mr. MacDonald? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I would move 24 that we approve the proposed resolution in support of the 25 Heritage Oaks Apartments, a low-income rental facility, as 72 1 proposed by Mr. MacDonald. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'll second that, with 3 a question. Well -- 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Moved by Commissioner 5 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 6 approve the resolution in support of Heritage Oaks, an 7 affordable rental housing project in the city of Kerrville. 8 Any further discussion? Mr. Griffin? 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. I've got a 10 question, and that is, what is the real purpose of the 11 resolution? I mean, what -- what could you use that for? 12 MR. MACDONALD: Well, when we make our 13 application to State of Texas, it always is helpful to have 14 every governmental entity up and down the line to -- 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, this is preceding 16 the application to -- 17 MR. MACDONALD: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The application. What is 19 the -- it's a State financing program? Or -- 20 MR. MACDONALD: What it does is allows us 21 to -- with State approval -- and our odds are about 30 22 percent of getting that; they're pretty slim because of the 23 amount of people who apply. We're able to then apply for 24 federal tax credits, which allow us to lower the rents, to 25 do from a level. 73 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions on the 2 resolution? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 3 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next 7 companion item is Item Number 10, which is to consider and 8 discuss approval of the historic registration of the Rose 9 House located at 2350 Junction Highway. I believe 10 Mr. MacDonald has really already explained to us the purpose 11 of this. Does anyone have any further questions or 12 comments? 13 MR. MACDONALD: I'd like to say one thing. 14 Mr. Schellhase had to leave earlier, but the Historical 15 Commission is in support of what we're trying to do. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That was my only 17 question. I've sat as a Commissioner and we have assisted 18 in several of these, but it's always been the Historical 19 Commission that drives this type of thing. And, I don't -- 20 I guess you can do it, huh? 21 MR. MACDONALD: We hope so. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One other question, 23 Granger, with respect to your diagram. 24 MR. MACDONALD: Yes? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you show us a 74 1 proposed addition to that? Is there a proposed addition to 2 it in some respect? Cupola on the left there? 3 MR. MACDONALD: There's a cupola on the left 4 there. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And it will be built 6 compatible to the -- 7 MR. MACDONALD: Same materials. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Same materials? 9 MR. MACDONALD: According to what we've 10 applied for with the State and our application for the State 11 Historical Site, we have to use the same building materials. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Judge, I would 13 move the resolution designating the residence, Rose House, 14 2350 Junction Highway, as a historic structure in Kerr 15 County. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 18 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 19 approve the resolution designating the Rose House at 2350 20 Junction Highway as a historic structure. Any further 21 questions or comments? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what we do, is 23 we declare it a historical structure? Or do we just, again, 24 lend support for them to go to the State to -- 25 MR. MACDONALD: It's actually added to the 75 1 County's Historic Register when y'all say it has some sort 2 of historic significance, and then it goes to the State. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's on our Register. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further discussion? If 6 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 7 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 11 MR. MACDONALD: Thank you. I have -- since I 12 have a face for radio, I'm going to leave the TV to y'all. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, Court will take 16 up Item 2.3, which is consider and discuss the final plat of 17 Saddlewood Estates, Section 2, Precinct 1. Commissioner 18 Baldwin. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I just 20 wanted to ask Mr. Johnston a couple of questions, and 21 then -- then I'm through with it. This particular section 22 is -- like Section 1 is in the E.T.J. of Kerrville; is that 23 correct? 24 MR. JOHNSTON: It is entirely in the E.T.J. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The entire thing is in 76 1 the E.T.J. The city of Kerrville has gone through all this 2 little process, and they've signed off on it and sent it 3 over here; is that correct? 4 MR. JOHNSTON: We had an agreement in advance 5 on this -- well, this entire subdivision, but on this -- 6 this section, in particular, that City of Kerrville would do 7 inspections by their Inspection Department. Phase I, they 8 didn't really do it that way; they had some third party sign 9 off on it. So, this is all -- all the improvements, roads 10 and drainage structures in the whole subdivision was 11 inspected daily by City of Kerrville, and signed off by 12 their Director of Public Services, Jim Dower. It was also 13 approved a week ago last Thursday by the City Planning and 14 Zoning, March 3rd. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My only question is, 16 there's -- there's one lot here less than two and a half 17 acres. Only one that I saw, let's put it that way. 18 MR. JOHNSTON: I think their criteria were -- 19 MR. WIEDENDELD: Everything is served by public 20 water system. 21 MR. JOHNSTON: Right, served by public water. 22 But, I think the average lot size was, like, four acres in 23 the entire subdivision, something like that. It does have 24 public water. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further comments or 77 1 questions? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Looks good. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That it? I move that 4 we approve the final plat of Saddlewood Estates, Section 2, 5 in Precinct 1, Kerr County. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 8 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that we approve the 9 final plat of Saddlewood Estates, Section 2, located in 10 Precinct 1 of the Kerr County. Any further discussion? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One just real brief 12 comment is, this has been on a -- lingering a long time. I 13 think that the developers have, you know, done their best to 14 work with all the regulations with the City, and they 15 started out on the wrong foot a little bit. I think they've 16 really checked that, and done a good job. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion's been made and 19 seconded. If there's no further discussion, all in favor, 20 raise your right hand. 21 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you. 25 At this time, since it is 11 o'clock, we will recess this 78 1 session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and open the 2 public hearing, as posted, for the Order of the Kerr County 3 Commissioners Court Adopting Regulations for 4 Sexually-Oriented Businesses in the Unincorporated Area of 5 Kerr County. 6 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 11:02 a.m., and a public hearing 7 was held in open court, as follows: 8 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: As soon as we get everything 10 ready, we will begin. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Judge, if I might, 12 there are a couple of seats down front here, if some of you 13 folks would like to come in and stand next to the door here 14 where you can hear, I think it's important enough -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's one chair over 16 here. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two or three on the 18 left. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Now that we've taken 21 care of that administrative detail, this is a public hearing 22 on Proposed Regulations Concerning Operation of 23 Sexually-Oriented Businesses within the Unincorporated Area 24 of Kerr County, Texas. The Court has been working on these 25 regulations for about a month now. The regulations that we 79 1 are considering today were approved by the Court at our last 2 meeting, at which time we set the public hearing. They have 3 been available for review by the public in the County 4 Clerk's office for about 10 days at this time, and we are 5 here today to take citizens' input on the regulations. We 6 would ask you all, if possible, to limit your comments to 7 the actual regulations. 8 As pointed out in previous meetings, the 9 Court does not have the ability to prohibit this type of 10 business within the unincorporated areas of Kerr County. 11 The maximum we are allowed to do by law is to regulate this 12 business -- these types of businesses. We have done, 13 through our County Attorney's office, significant research 14 on the extent to which we are permitted to regulate 15 sexually-oriented businesses, and the regulations that we 16 are considering today are based on ordinances and 17 regulations in effect in other areas of the state which have 18 been proven by court cases to meet the Constitutional 19 standards under the First Amendment. So, before we ask for 20 public comment, I'm going to allow any of the Commissioners 21 that would like to to make any statements they would. 22 Commissioner Baldwin, you first. You've been carrying the 23 water on this. Do you want to kick us off? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the only -- yes, 25 as a matter of fact. I -- this is not something that we 80 1 just woke up one morning a couple of months ago with on our 2 minds. I had actually -- I served on this Court 10 and 12 3 years ago, and we actually had many visits about this same 4 issue back then, and it's just been always kind of in the 5 back of our minds. And, recently, we got with the present 6 County Attorney's office that has been so kind to really 7 roll up their sleeves and get down and get to work on the 8 thing and do some serious -- as the Judge said, do some 9 serious research on it, and they've come up with this 10 document. And -- and I -- my church has called me; several 11 people have called me and wanted to know if I wanted them 12 down here, and -- and I said no. You -- you're welcome to 13 come to Commissioners Court, but I think that this -- this 14 body is -- is of one mind on this issue, and I think that 15 we're going to adopt these regulations and move forward. As 16 I said a couple of weeks ago, it's -- this kind of issue -- 17 this kind of a business is an abomination to our community, 18 and I stand on that. And -- and we -- and I will do 19 whatever it takes to regulate this type of business to the 20 hilt, where they might be able to get their doors open, but 21 they won't stay that way very long. And, so, that's my only 22 comment. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Williams? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only to express my 25 appreciation to everybody who came today to put forth your 81 1 point of view on this particular order regulating sexually- 2 oriented businesses. I think it's important business of 3 this Court. As Commissioner Baldwin said, we are about 4 doing this. We will do this. Your input is valuable to us 5 and we thank you for taking the time and making the effort 6 to be here this morning. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Letz? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Again, I pretty much echo 9 the sentiments of Commissioner Baldwin and Commissioner 10 Williams, and I'd really expressly, again, like to thank the 11 County Attorney's department for their help in this. I 12 think we have -- it's a good order I think we're about to 13 pass. I think it does, you know, meet the legal 14 requirements that anything we do must be able to do and 15 protect the Constitution or the Constitutionality. I am 16 confident that this will go through today. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Griffin? 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I, too, would like to 19 thank the County Attorney's office, particularly Ilse 20 Bailey, for all the great work she did in getting together 21 the necessary research and numerous drafts of this document, 22 and I think it -- I think it will pass all of the legal 23 tests that it may be required to face in the future. And, I 24 also want to thank all of those who came here today to -- 25 to, by your presence and by what you have to say, represent 82 1 your opinions. And, I'd also like to introduce for the 2 record, Judge, two petitions; one with 324 signatures 3 from -- from the Greenwood Forest Subdivision, another with 4 72 signatures from the Windmills Ridge Subdivision. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: We will make those a part of 6 the official record of this public hearing. At this time, 7 is there anyone who would like to come forward and address 8 the Court on the specifics of the order adopting the 9 regulations, or the regulations? 10 MRS. CARSETH: Have you read the ordinance as it 11 is written? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: I've read it a number of 13 times. 14 MRS. CARSETH: Okay. I'm sorry, I arrived late. 15 That's the only reason I asked the question. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: We don't need to read the 17 order -- 18 MRS. CARSETH: No, I mean to the public. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: It has been available for 20 review in the -- in the County Clerk's office for 21 approximately 10 days, and copies have been available, and I 22 think a number of the people in the audience have availed 23 themselves of the opportunity to -- to review that -- that 24 document. So, it -- it has been available for the public 25 review. 83 1 MRS. CARSETH: I wonder how many people in this 2 room knew that. 3 AUDIENCE: No, we didn't know. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: It was public knowledge. It 5 was -- I know it was in both newspapers. You know, that -- 6 that's the way -- 7 MRS. CARSETH: Could you possibly hit the 8 highlights of what is covered? 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I'll do it very briefly 10 and very sketchily. It sets for forth a licensing 11 requirement for the operation of the sexually-oriented 12 business, and it's very highly-defined. It also sets forth 13 the licensing process for any -- any person who would engage 14 in what we shall call "exotic dancing" at a 15 sexually-oriented business. It sets forth that no business 16 may be located less than 2,500 feet from churches, schools, 17 a number of defined -- cemeteries, residences -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Day care centers. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Day care centers. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nursing homes. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Nursing homes. It provides 22 that the person wants -- desiring to open a 23 sexually-oriented business must make application through the 24 Sheriff's Department; that the application will be forwarded 25 to the Justice of the Peace of the precinct in which the 84 1 business is proposed to be located. The Justice of the 2 Peace will have a public hearing in that precinct which 3 will -- which will require a notice to be published in the 4 paper regarding the application, and that the Justice of the 5 Peace will then make a recommendation to the Sheriff's 6 Department as to whether or not the application should be 7 approved or disapproved, and any conditions that should be 8 attached to the application. The applicant will then have 9 an opportunity to appeal those -- that decision, including 10 the conditions, to the District Court. So, it sets up a 11 process whereby the application goes to the Sheriff's 12 Department. Sheriff's Department conducts certain review as 13 to the applicant and the nature of the business. The 14 Justice of the Peace conducts a public hearing regarding the 15 application if there is a request for a public hearing by 16 the public, and the Justice of the Peace makes a 17 recommendation to the Sheriff's Department. Regulations in 18 the ordinance are based, again, upon regulations which are 19 in place throughout the state of Texas and which have been 20 proven in court to -- to stand the Constitutional 21 requirements of the First Amendment right of free speech. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just a minute. Two 23 comments -- one additional comment, another two comments. 24 We feel it's probably as restrictive an ordinance or 25 regulation as we could come up with. And the other 85 1 reason -- and the reason that -- not to -- it's 29 pages 2 long; it's very long because of the amount of legal 3 definitions and things. That's why -- I think the Judge 4 summarized it very properly and adequately. 5 MRS. CARSETH: I appreciate that. I have one 6 other further question, and I'm done. Excuse me. The only 7 one that I heard that I think is applicable to current 8 choice of location would be a cemetery. Has that ever been 9 tested in a court of law? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: We -- I don't know. 11 Ms. Bailey, can you address that very briefly? 12 MS. BAILEY: I'm not aware that -- 13 specifically that that -- it has been tested in a court of 14 law, but the issue of placing distance restrictions from 15 entities or places that might have sort of conflicting uses 16 has been tested. For instance, the similarity to churches. 17 The idea of a religious service at a funeral being -- being 18 held out at a cemetery falls into the same type of usage as 19 a church, and it certainly has been tested on numerous 20 occasions that it's appropriate to make that spacial 21 limitation away from churches because of the solemnity of 22 those kind of activities. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, thank you. Marge, 24 would you give your name for the record, please? 25 MRS. CARSETH: Mrs. Carseth. 86 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Let me just read you 2 the list, rather than summarize it. Proposed enterprise 3 cannot be located less than a minimum number of 2,500 feet 4 from any child care facility, school, dwelling, health care 5 facility, public building, public park, cemetery, church, or 6 place of religious worship. So, that's the -- that's the 7 list of places that it cannot be closer than 2,500 feet. 8 And there are other restrictions, but that really is the 9 most applicable. Do I have any other comments? Yes, sir? 10 Please identify yourself. 11 MR. CRAKE: Is there any provision in it -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Please identify yourself. 13 MR. CRAKE: I'm sorry. Merv Crake, C-r-a-k-e. 14 Is there any provision in it to not allow these 15 establishments to have liquor licenses? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's governed by the Texas 17 Alcohol and Beverage Control. 18 MR. CRAKE: There's nothing in here that says 19 they can't or can't -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: We do not have the authority 21 to -- to enter into that regulation, but it is -- I will 22 tell you, it is highly regulated by the T.A.B.C. And we 23 have -- at our previous meeting, actually when we had the 24 previous meeting on these regulations, Tommy Hall, our local 25 T.A.B.C. person, was in attendance and -- and addressed us 87 1 on the issue of how these regulations and the T.A.B.C. 2 controls would work together. 3 MR. CRAKE: At a previous -- excuse me, one 4 more question. At one previous meeting, it was said that 5 our County was looking at using Harris County's as a 6 guideline, because it had been tested and seemed to be a 7 real sound document. Was that the basis for -- 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: That was -- that was the 9 basis for the original -- original draft. I understand that 10 the County Attorney also looked at Comal County and 11 Guadalupe County -- 12 MS. BAILEY: Yes, sir. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- as perhaps more applicable 14 to us, given our population and our living conditions here 15 in Kerr County. 16 MR. CRAKE: That's what I was wondering. Did 17 we lengthen or broaden the distance allowed between these 18 establishments and these things you mentioned? Because 19 we're a rural area. Rather than use Harris County's 20 tightly-compacted -- 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: That was part of the 22 consideration, yes, sir. 23 MR. CRAKE: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it was, as well. 25 Harris County's was 1,000 feet. We went to 2,500 feet. 88 1 MR. CRAKE: 2,500? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fifteen. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 1,500 to 2,500. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, sir, please stand up and 5 identify yourself. 6 MR. MINNICH: James Minnich is my name, 7 M-i-n-n-i-c-h. Isn't that -- there's one church that's 8 right around that 2,500 foot measurement, and I -- I've 9 clicked it off with my car, and it's the first church you 10 come to east of that establishment. And, have you checked 11 it out to find out just how far that -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, sir, we don't do that. 13 We couldn't go and -- and do distances and then make a 14 measurement based on that. So, I can't tell you -- 15 MR. MINNICH: So, how are we going to tell if 16 that church is 2,500 feet? 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, if we -- it becomes an 18 issue, somebody's going to go out there and measure it. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If somebody makes an 20 application. If somebody makes an application, then the 21 Sheriff's Department will check it. 22 MR. MINNICH: I think it is right around 2,500 23 feet from it. 24 AUDIENCE: It's exactly 1,320 feet. 25 MR. MINNICH: Okay. 89 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Are there any other questions 2 or comments? Yes, sir, stand up and identify yourself. 3 MR. DAMON: Yes. My name is Jim Damon. Did 4 you -- maybe I missed it in reading the regulations, but did 5 you ever define "cemetery"? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Ms. Bailey? 7 MS. BAILEY: There's no definition contained 8 within the definition section of "cemetery," but I think 9 that -- 10 MR. DAMON: I didn't know if that was necessary 11 or not. 12 MS. BAILEY: I didn't think that it was 13 necessary. But, if it becomes an issue, we can certainly 14 amend the order. 15 MR. DAMON: Thank you. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, ma'am? 17 MS. LINES: I'm Velma Lines. Does these 18 restrictions apply -- I understand by the paper a business 19 has already applied for license for this. It's right at my 20 back door. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, ma'am, we have received 22 no application. 23 MS. LINES: Well, it was in the paper. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, we have 25 received no applications for this type of business. We had 90 1 an individual come in and express interest in applying for a 2 permit for this type of business, but to my knowledge no 3 actual application has been received as of this time. 4 MS. LINES: I was wanting to know, if it had 5 have been, would these restrictions keep that from going in, 6 since it wasn't in when they applied? 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: If there was a business that 8 was already operating, these restrictions would not put them 9 out of business, but there are provisions in these 10 restrictions which would require them, over time, to conform 11 with these standards. 12 MS. LINES: Thank you. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, Commissioner? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It might be 15 helpful -- and if I'm incorrect, counsel will straighten me 16 out -- might be helpful for people here to know that in 17 addition to what they read about the potential of a 18 particular business, these regulations also cover such 19 things as adult arcades, adult book stores, adult video 20 stores, adult motels, adult motion picture theaters, and -- 21 and that nature. So, they're broad and they try to cover 22 all of the areas in which this could be a potential 23 business. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, Ms. Carseth? 25 MS. CARSETH: I have two questions in connection 91 1 with that first one. Is any of this retroactive? Are 2 people in business already grandfathered? 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: They are not grandfathered. 4 We cannot prevent them from operating a business that is 5 there today, but they must, over time, conform to these 6 requirements. If you remember Ladybird Johnson and her 7 billboard campaign -- 8 MS. CARSETH: Mm-hmm. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- what they had to do at 10 that time was to basically determine an economic shelf-life 11 of the billboards and give them that period of time within 12 which to comply. It's the same concept that we're using in 13 these regulations. 14 MS. CARSETH: And does it also cover massage 15 parlors? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: It depends on the type of 17 massage parlor you're talking about. We already have an 18 ordinance in place regarding massage parlors. 19 MS. CARSETH: Thank you. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, if they fall within that 21 type of massage parlor, they're already covered. If they 22 fall within a definition which would be more in cohesion 23 with the sexually-oriented business, they will have to 24 comply with this type of ordinance. 25 MR. DALE: My name's Dan Dale. I'm pastor of 92 1 First Baptist, Ingram, and I have to apologize. I'm unaware 2 of things that are going on. I've learned a lot today. And 3 I really appreciate the ordinances y'all put together. But, 4 I guess to get back to what this lady had -- had asked, was 5 at this point in time, there is no application for one at 6 this present time, so any after this point would fall under 7 these regulations; is that correct? 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct, sir. 9 MS. EADES: I'm Suzanne Eades, and I'm from Los 10 Angeles, California, from the San Fernando Valley. It 11 started out this way, one little business. And they thought 12 they could control it, and we ended up with prostitutions, 13 with gangs, everything just came right in. And people 14 didn't believe it would happen, but it did. Isn't there 15 laws and rules that you can enforce now? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's what we're doing 17 today, ma'am. We're adopting the most stringent regulations 18 that our attorneys tell us we can by law in order to 19 regulate this type of business. We cannot prohibit this 20 type of business. All we can do is regulate them. 21 MS. EADES: But we can make it very difficult. 22 In Fredericksburg, there was a business of tattooing, body 23 piercing. They got them out of there. They've been very 24 comfortable here now for a year and a half. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we -- I can't address 93 1 that issue. We're here today to talk about 2 sexually-oriented businesses, and the tattoo business is one 3 that probably, in my opinion, would not fall under this 4 regulation. I'm not -- and I'm not sure whether, by law, we 5 have the ability to regulate a tattooing type of enterprise. 6 MS. EADES: But it is all gang-related, believe 7 me. It all is like building blocks. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't disagree with you, 9 but this Court can only do what we're authorized and 10 permitted to do by law, and I think after you've had an 11 opportunity to review what we're doing today, you will agree 12 with us that we are taking the maximum steps we can in order 13 to make it difficult for these types of businesses to 14 operate in Kerr County within the boundaries of the laws. 15 MS. EADES: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, may I make a 17 brief comment? This -- what we're talking about today 18 addresses areas outside the city limits. The city limits -- 19 the cities in Kerr County, I believe, already have their own 20 ordinances regarding this. This is outside of the city 21 limits of Kerrville, outside the city limits of Ingram, so 22 we're talking about what happened in Fredericksburg, which 23 could have been a city ordinance. And, generally, cities 24 have far greater regulatory authority than counties do. So, 25 there's things that they can do that we can't do, as a 94 1 county. But, there is -- 2 MS. EADES: Well, who covers outside the city 3 limits? Who -- 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We do. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The County does. So, 6 there's different -- we have different sets of rules that -- 7 what we can do versus what cities can do. I'm just saying 8 that just because a city can do something doesn't mean the 9 county can do the same thing, by law. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Baldwin? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Just let me 12 say this. This 29-page document that we're fixing to adopt 13 is going to make it very, very difficult for any place to be 14 in business. 15 MS. EADES: Praise God. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It will be 17 extremely -- read this. 18 MS. EADES: I will. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is going to be 20 extremely hard to be in business in Kerr County. 21 MS. EADES: Good. 22 MR. DALE: I think maybe they might -- some 23 of them might be having some of the same confusion I'm 24 having, is understanding some legal terms. The word 25 "regulation" makes it sounds like, well, you're permitting 95 1 it, but basically what you're talking about is, like, 2 restrictions, in a sense; is that correct? 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct. 4 MR. DALE: This is an ordinance similar to, 5 like, a law-type thing that they have to abide by? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, sir. 7 MR. DALE: Okay. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, sir. Up to this point, 9 there's been nothing which stopped one of these types of 10 businesses from opening in the unincorporated areas in Kerr 11 County. Hopefully, in about ten minutes -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Five. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- they will have to comply 14 with the regulations that we are considering today, which 15 is, as I've outlined before, application, review by the 16 Sheriff's Department, public hearing, a recommendation by 17 the hearing officer, and finally issuing of -- of the 18 permit. Ms. Bailey? 19 MS. BAILEY: Judge, I thought maybe also it 20 would be useful for the people attending today to be aware 21 of the fact that you have not only regulation, but 22 enforcement issues. And, we have had good commitment from 23 the Sheriff's Office that they would be very active 24 participants in doing whatever enforcement of these 25 regulations that we -- we end up adopting. So, I think 96 1 that, perhaps, maybe the lady from California's concerns 2 might not be concerns that we would have here, 'cause we 3 will have an excellent enforcement. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's a good point. Lady in 5 the back? Please identify yourself. 6 MS. WOLLNEY: I'm Dawn Wollney. What I'm 7 concerned about is, everybody's familiar with the domestic 8 violence that's going on, and it's getting worse here in 9 Kerrville. And that's where the men go; they go to these 10 places like this, and they go home and they want the same 11 things from their wife, that end up in marital rape. They 12 get beaten. All these different things happen to their 13 wives that are very innocent, that are not going to those 14 places. And, is that going to bring more -- if that is 15 unregulated there, is that going to bring more to Kerrville? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Ma'am, we don't have the 17 ability to -- to prohibit these types of businesses. If we 18 could, I think I can speak for the Court, we would. We're 19 trying to do all that we can, and we are doing all that we 20 can to keep these kind of businesses out of our county, make 21 it as difficult for them as we can. Understand that we 22 cannot prohibit. I just want you all to understand that. 23 If we could, we'd have a far different type of ordinance 24 before us today. It would be about three paragraphs long, 25 and about four pages of definitions. But we can't do that. 97 1 All we can do is regulate, and that's what we're here to do, 2 is the max number we can to protect our county. Now, again, 3 I need to ask you, please, to keep your comments to the 4 specifics of the ordinance or questions about the ordinance. 5 There was a question over here. Yes, sir? 6 MR. MALONE: Lloyd Malone. The applications 7 that different -- that supposedly they'll apply for, that 8 will be publicly known by the people that are concerned? 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. There is a requirement 10 in the ordinance -- correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Bailey -- 11 that the applicant must give notice by mail to everyone 12 within -- 13 MS. BAILEY: A certain distance. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- a certain distance, and I 15 believe it's 2,500 feet. 16 MS. BAILEY: I think that's correct. 17 MR. MALONE: That's half a mile, thereabouts. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes, sir. And also -- 19 MS. BAILEY: And publication in the paper. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Then, once the public hearing 21 is set, the applicant is required to publish notice of the 22 public hearing in the newspaper. So, there's two ways that 23 people will be notified; one, when the application is filed, 24 the applicant must give notice by mail to people within 25 2,500 feet of the location. Secondly, when the public 98 1 hearing is set, assuming that any -- that a citizen or an 2 agency has requested a public hearing, the notice of public 3 hearing, including the time, place, and date, must be 4 published in the newspaper. And, it's a requirement of the 5 application that they prove that that notice has been 6 published before the public hearing goes forward, and they 7 cannot get their license unless -- unless and until the 8 public hearing has taken place. So, we've built into this 9 all the notification safeguards that we can. Again, within 10 the restrictions that our counsel advises us have been found 11 in our other areas. Yes, ma'am? 12 MS. KENYON: Debbie Kenyon. I was just 13 wondering, once they have the public hearing, is that when 14 all of us would make a difference showing up, or -- or is it 15 already decided? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. No. The public -- 17 MS. KENYON: Does the public really make a 18 difference? 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: The public hearing would 20 be -- is really intended to give the hearing officer, which 21 is your local J.P. -- 22 MS. KENYON: Mm-hmm. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- information regarding any 24 conditions that would want to be placed on the license, 25 other than those that are already written in the ordinance. 99 1 MS. KENYON: But just having petitions that no 2 one wants it there, that's not going to help? 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, now, that's -- 4 MS. KENYON: I mean -- 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's useful in reminding 6 the J.P. and the Sheriff's Department that they must look at 7 this very strictly, in accordance with the regulations. 8 But, again, we cannot prohibit this type of business. 9 MS. KENYON: That's what I'm saying. I know -- 10 I know y'all can't. But, in -- if the whole public got 11 together and didn't want it there, then we still can't do 12 anything about it? 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I mean, there -- there 14 are other options you can take. I mean, you know, if they 15 meet the requirement of the regulations, then we have no 16 option but to issue them -- 17 MS. KENYON: But you -- you've made the 18 regulations so tough -- 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: There are all sorts of 20 things. There are -- you know, there's economic boycotts, 21 there's picketing, there's demonstrations. I mean, you 22 know, they -- you know, one of the most effective tools 23 against a business is -- just like any drug business, is you 24 shine the light of day upon the roach and it runs into the 25 corner. You shine the light of day upon a sexually-oriented 100 1 business, and who's going to want to be there? Who's going 2 to want to go to one of these places, you know, if their 3 neighbors are going to be there taking pictures and -- and 4 making it so that they have to identify themselves and 5 reveal themselves in order to patronize a place like that? 6 So, you know, if we have to issue a license, y'all's job 7 really is just beginning. Yes, ma'am? 8 MS. EADES: Could -- since this is a new type 9 of business here in Kerrville, of this special license, 10 couldn't it be a -- an exorbitant amount? 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we haven't yet -- we 12 haven't yet addressed the fees, and we can't make it an 13 exorbitant amount, but I can assure you that we will take 14 into consideration all the costs of licensing this type of 15 establishment whenever we establish the proper fees. So, it 16 will be a -- the fee will be in accord with the type of 17 business and the amount of your county government time that 18 has to go into -- into regulating and, if necessary, 19 permitting this type of business. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'd like to 21 make one more comment. It's been referred to a couple of 22 times about a particular place that maybe there's a rumor 23 out there that someone wants to put this type of business 24 in, and I think someone has been to one of our Commissioners 25 inquiring about -- about it. I just want you to know that 101 1 long before any of these kind of things ever happened, we 2 were working on this thing. Ms. Bailey from the County 3 Attorney's office has been working on this for several -- 4 several months, and long before anything specific came in, 5 so it's not -- it -- this today is not driven by someone 6 just walking in and inquiring about it. We've been working 7 on it a long time. So, I just wanted you to understand 8 that, that this is not a -- this is not a reaction of any 9 sort; that we're very proactive on this issue. 10 MS. LINES: This was what I was wanting to know. 11 No offense to you, Commissioners, but why this hasn't been 12 taken care of long before now. 'Cause surely you knew that 13 sooner or later, something like this was going to come in. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, most of us are 15 slow learners. This is my second time to sit at this 16 Commissioners Court, so, I mean, I'm a slow learner, see, so 17 it takes us awhile. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 19 comments? Yes, sir? 20 MR. SMITH: My name's Blake Smith. I have a 21 question. You mentioned the restrictions, that a sexually- 22 oriented business couldn't be close to a cemetery, church. 23 Why does it not also include a residence with minor 24 children? 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: It included dwelling. 102 1 MR. SMITH: Any dwelling? 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Dwelling. Yes, dwelling was 3 one of the items that was in the list. 4 MR. SMITH: Thank you. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do you have a question, Doug? 6 MR. IRVIN: Yeah. Doug Irvin, I-r-v-i-n. I've 7 been listening to the comments here, listening to the 8 Commissioners Court. And, I have talked with Commissioner 9 Baldwin before, and I'd like to thank the Commissioners 10 Court for dealing with this issue right now. I understand 11 there's been some constraints you've had to work under, and 12 I appreciate the fact you've made it as tough as possible. 13 Thank you. 14 (Applause.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Do we have any 16 other comments before we close the public hearing and go on 17 to voting? Yes, sir? 18 MR. DOMAINE: My name's David Domaine, and I 19 also appreciate the work you've done. Does your regulation 20 address the issue of signs, and also who governs the age 21 limit? Is it the T.A.B.C. that governs the age? 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, we govern the age limit 23 as to -- 24 MR. DOMAINE: Patrons. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- concerns of who can go in 103 1 the place and who can work there. I don't remember what we 2 have in here about signs. 3 MS. BAILEY: There's something in here. 4 Well, we don't have the authority, as a county, to have a 5 sign ordinance the way the City does. We don't address 6 that. However, we do have a couple of sign regulations in 7 there, the first being that if a sexually-oriented business 8 is planning to go into business and not yet in business at 9 that location, they have to post a sign at the location as 10 part of the notification process. And, additionally, 11 there's some signage inside the business requirements. One 12 in particular that I recall is a warning -- an AIDS warning. 13 But, we don't have any exterior signage requirements. 14 MR. DOMAINE: I'm thinking more in terms of 15 advertising. 16 MS. BAILEY: We don't have -- we don't have 17 that kind of authority. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone else? Yes? 19 MS. CARSETH: I have one inane question. You 20 put the onus on us that, should something like this be 21 successful in obtaining a permit here in Kerr County, then 22 the onus is on us to make their life as miserable as we can. 23 Is -- is there any possibility -- I know that this town is 24 full of -- how do I gracefully put this? -- offshoot 25 churches. If we see an empty storefront within 2,500 square 104 1 feet, can we suddenly, after we throw something in there, 2 open up a holy rollers or whatever? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hallelujah. 4 MS. CARSETH: Or is that -- is that too much 5 after the fact? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: My impression, subject to 7 being corrected by Ms. Bailey, is that the day the 8 application is received is the day that those measurements 9 are -- are in effect. However, if a church were to go in 10 within, let's say, 2,000 feet of one of these businesses, 11 that would be effective on any renewal of the business 12 license. 13 MS. CARSETH: So, we only create a lot of fuss. 14 That's it. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 16 comments? 17 MR. DALE: Well, just, once again, 18 apologizing for my ignorance on this thing. My eyes have 19 been opened, and I have a -- a whole new appreciation for 20 the County Commissioners Court. And, I thank you so much 21 for knowing in my own heart, as a pastor and a parent of two 22 teenagers, that y'all do have the best interests of the 23 community at heart, and I thank you for that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 25 (Applause.) 105 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: We appreciate the support. 2 We'd also like to thank all those people who took the time 3 to contact us and comment on this. We need your help and we 4 do appreciate it. Yes, Commissioner? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there any comments 6 for -- from the for side? Not the "far" side, but from the 7 "for" side. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is open to anyone. 9 Anyone who -- this is open to anyone who wishes to comment 10 on the issue of the regulations. So, I don't see anyone who 11 wishes to comment on the -- opposed to the regulation, from 12 the sense they want to open this type of establishment. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I didn't think so. 14 MR. DAMON: Where can we pick up those forms? 15 Are they available here? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Once they're adopted, these 17 regulations will be in the County Clerk's office, and -- 18 MR. DAMON: When could we pick them up? 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, if you want the actual 20 adopted one with the signatures and everything, it will 21 probably be a day or two. But, I mean, there is a copy of 22 what we're talking about down there now, if that's what you 23 want to look at. If you want to get a copy of the actual 24 order adopting the regulations with the dates and the 25 signatures, then you'll have to wait a day or two. You need 106 1 to get in touch with the County Clerk's office. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, on that, maybe -- 3 I don't think we ever thought about the pricing of this. 4 You know, the price structure currently is going to be 5 pretty high for documents of this size. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: A dollar a page. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's $29 for the 8 document, but we may want to, at our next -- when we set the 9 fee structure, or maybe at our next meeting, we could go 10 after some printing of these and be able to offer them to 11 the public at a much lower price than the standard copying 12 rate of the County. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: We might talk about posting 14 it on our website, too. So, we'll go to the maximum lengths 15 we can in order to make it available to people who want to 16 have an opportunity to review this. One more time, any more 17 comments or questions before we -- 18 MR. PLUMB: I would just like to state in -- 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Please stand up, give your 20 name. 21 MR. PLUMB: Forrest Plumb. Pastor Forrest 22 Plumb. Several pastors have told me they couldn't be here, 23 but they would come. And, all I'm saying at this point is 24 that there's a lot more people than what you see here that 25 are opposed to this thing, and they could have filled the 107 1 halls and out into the street. In fact, that was the idea 2 at the beginning. And they backed off, because it was a 3 small room. But, I want you to know that we're dead-set 4 against anything that's going to bring the morals of our 5 families and the community down. 6 MS. EADES: Amen. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Hear, hear. 8 (Applause.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. At this time 10 we're going to conclude the public hearing and return to 11 regular Commissioners Court. 12 (The public hearing was concluded at 11:40 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 13 meeting was reopened.) 14 - - - - - - - - - - 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: The next item for 16 consideration is Item 2.17, which is to consider and discuss 17 adopting Order of the Kerr County Commissioners Court 18 Adopting Regulations for Sexually-Oriented Businesses in the 19 Unincorporated Area of Kerr County, Texas. Do I need any 20 further comment or discussion on this item? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a motion. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Fire away. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move that we adopt 24 the Regulations for Sexually-Oriented Businesses in the 25 Unincorporated Area of Kerr County, Texas. 108 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Third. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 4 Baldwin, seconded by the rest of the Court, that we adopt 5 the Regulations for Sexually-Oriented Businesses in the 6 Unincorporated Area of Kerr County, Texas. Any further 7 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 8 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries unanimously. 12 Thank you. 13 (Applause.) 14 (Discussion off the record.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Folks, we have more business 16 to do, if y'all could -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Get out of here. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- take your seats, either 19 inside or outside the courtroom. Next item on the agenda is 20 2.4, consider and discuss accepting the Loss Analysis 21 Report. The Treasurer, Ms. Nemec, had to go to the doctor 22 this morning and is unable to attend. If anyone has any 23 questions about the Loss Analysis Report, we'll defer this 24 until the next session. This is something that we are 25 required to accept. We do not have to approve it, but -- 109 1 and if no one has any questions about the report, I'll go 2 ahead and entertain a motion to accept the report. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 6 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court accept the 7 Loss Analysis Report, as presented by the County Treasurer. 8 Any further comments or questions? If not, all in favor, 9 raise your right hand. 10 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item 2.5, 14 consider and discuss request for use of Capital Outlay 15 money. Animal Control supervisor, Mr. Allen. 16 MR. ALLEN: We're requesting to outfit our 17 new truck that we've got. We need a toolbox to store our 18 equipment in, guns, and we'd like to get a new two-way 19 low-band radio for car-to-car communication. Also, what 20 we'd like to do is purchase a directional light bar for the 21 new truck and a directional light bar for the existing 22 truck. There is a chance that we may get two of them 23 donated to us from a police agency, which, if that's the 24 case, all we'd have to do is buy some new amber lenses. 25 But, right now we don't have to have the light bars. 110 1 Just -- I mean, we can wait until they decide if they're 2 going to give them to us. But, we do need the tool box and 3 the radio. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are they covered in 6 your Capital line item? 7 MR. ALLEN: Yes. We have $2,200 left in 8 Capital Outlay, and the items that I'm requesting here comes 9 to a total of $1,362. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move approval. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 13 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that we approve 14 Capital Outlay use by the Animal Control Department. Any 15 further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right 16 hand. 17 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you, 21 Marc. 22 MR. ALLEN: Thank you. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moving right along. We next 24 go to item -- let's do 2.13, consider and discuss concept 25 plan and permit requirement for Flat Rock Lake Park. 111 1 Commissioner Letz. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, everyone -- this is 3 a printout of where we are dollar-wise right now, just for 4 your information. I met with L.C.R.A., their 5 representative, on Friday, and they were very, very happy 6 with the work that was done. They also, I think, were 7 somewhat amazed and stated that they have never seen a 8 project go as far with the dollars that we have out there. 9 They were very pleased at the amount of work we were able to 10 get done with the $140,000, plus or minus what we've spent 11 so far. 12 One of the -- one of the things I discussed 13 with them and wanted to the get their feeling was the 14 restroom facility, whether -- if they really wanted us to 15 include that or not. After talking with, you know, a number 16 of people, looking at the location, my recommendation is 17 that we delete that. I'm not sure it wouldn't be more of a 18 -- a problem up there, from a security standpoint and 19 maintenance standpoint, than it's worth. And, because of 20 the floodplain, the location of it has to be up here in 21 Riverside Drive, and it's not really real accessible to the 22 patrons in the park. They have to -- no matter where they 23 are in the park, they'd have a long walk to get there. For 24 this we allocated $20,000 originally in the budget. That 25 money is available to use for the restroom if we so choose, 112 1 but I think that money could probably be better spent on 2 other items out there, such as spending more on additional 3 picnic tables and barbecue pit-type structures, and then 4 possibly going on to -- if we have any money left over at 5 the end of the overall project, to seal-coating the roads. 6 That's something we had hoped to do, but we probably will 7 not have enough to do that, because we would -- the way we 8 configured, we need a little bit more road work than we 9 thought of in the new area. We also did more dirt work in 10 the new area than originally contemplated within the budget, 11 but -- we leveled it and did a lot more drainage work than 12 we originally thought, but we were able to get it done right 13 the first time. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: The question I have is 15 what -- what are the patrons at the park going to do for -- 16 you know, for restroom facilities? Is it realistic to have 17 a park without any restroom facilities? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, I don't know. 19 I mean, it's definitely a -- you know, it would be a 20 benefit. It would be great if we could locate them in a 21 better area of the park. You know, we can't do that. And 22 it's just an item -- the way I see it, it seems to me it 23 might be more trouble than it's worth, but we certainly can 24 do it. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, you know, it just -- I 113 1 understand the enforcement problems, particularly if we're 2 going to try to have the park open extended hours. But, I 3 just am -- you know, how long can you picnic without having 4 a restroom to avail yourself of? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How many nice ways can 6 you say that? 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think I did pretty good, 8 didn't I? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I have a 10 question, Commissioner, about it. You know, we had the same 11 problem, as you probably recall, years ago down at the 12 little park in Center Point, where they built restrooms and 13 the river came along and -- and took them out of Center 14 Point and deposited them in Comfort. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Did we ever get them back? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, never got them 17 back. And the question would be is it possible, if we do, I 18 assume, do it, we could put them on higher ground and maybe 19 put them in closer proximity to Riverside Drive and the Ag 20 complex, back line of the Ag complex? Would that still tie 21 into the park sufficiently to meet the conditions of the 22 grant? I guess that's what I'm asking. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the current 24 location. The current spot where they would go is right on 25 Riverside Drive, very near the city sewer line, so we can 114 1 tap into that sewer line. In fact, the City approved 2 waiving the tap fee in anticipation of us putting the 3 restrooms up there. So, they would be out of the 4 floodplain, so that should not be an issue. It's just a -- 5 a matter of whether we would -- it's, you know, best to do 6 that or not do that. It -- we all share in the decision. I 7 just put it on the agenda for discussion. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is there a way we can 9 -- is there a way we can hold off in making that decision 10 and see how the money holds out and that sort of thing? Or 11 does that decision need to be made now? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know that it has 13 to be made now, but it will need to be made within the next 14 meeting or meeting after that, because we are -- we're kind 15 of closing out. We have -- I think we budgeted ten picnic 16 tables, barbecue table setups of, you know, brackets for 17 frisbee golf course and standards for volleyball. None of 18 those are big items; all that should be able to be done for 19 $10,000 to $15,000. 20 Another item that I did not put in the 21 original budget is seeding in the park with grass seed. 22 I've talked with Texas Multi-Chem. They've given a price of 23 in the neighborhood of $5,000 to seed with Bermuda seed, 24 aerate, plant, drag, the whole bit, all -- well, all areas 25 that we've done any dirt work on in the park on both sides. 115 1 And, I think with the amount of dirt work we did, that's 2 some of the -- that is a priority to get done. Hopefully, 3 we'll get some rain. You hate to spend that money and then 4 have no rain. But, it's Bermuda grass seed; most of it will 5 probably germinate this spring. So, I mean, we certainly 6 could defer on the restroom issue, but I think, from a 7 planning standpoint, we're far enough along that we need to 8 get the price of the restrooms in there so we make sure we 9 don't run out of money. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think I'm kind of 11 like the Judge. I favor having them, because it makes it a 12 more usable facility for family groups that may have a 13 picnic there that lasts several hours. Otherwise, it would 14 be a very major inconvenience. Has the boat ramp been 15 constructed yet? I've had calls about that. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, so have I. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So have I. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The boat ramp was -- it's 19 a prefab thing. Just to say what happened -- it was an 20 accident, as well. On Friday, the boat ramp was there. The 21 precast slabs are 17 feet long. The crane truck was moving 22 the first one in on Friday afternoon. The rigging on the 23 truck gave way to the bank of the river and we almost had a 24 catastrophe. The truck went up in the air, the panel went 25 down to the ground, and we had several -- three County 116 1 employees out there, plus the crane operator. Luckily, no 2 one was hurt and the boat ramp wasn't severely damaged. 3 The -- I think the operator probably had to go see the 4 cleaners, 'cause the truck went way up in the air, almost 5 flipped into the river. But, that has since been -- I 6 talked to Leonard this morning. They've ordered a bigger 7 crane out of San Antonio, which will come do some other work 8 in the county later this week, and it will be able to get 9 further away from the river to avoid this from happening 10 again. So, the boat ramp is -- it's currently lying 11 crosswise across the new ramp location and is not usable. 12 The reason that we -- or not we -- Leonard 13 closed off the old boat ramp is that we have that low water 14 crossing there, and there's barricades there, but people 15 being the way they are, they moved the barricades and 16 started driving across it. And, that is -- that road is -- 17 it's not intended to be a bridge for vehicles or traffic. 18 And, once we do the concrete work over the top of it, 19 there's going to be some poles put in place so nothing more 20 than a bicycle can get across it; no four-wheelers, no golf 21 carts, nothing. But, right now, people -- presumably kids, 22 maybe adults -- were driving across it, and the liability of 23 going into that water, which is very deep under a very 24 narrow bridge, was such that Leonard closed it. 25 We could ask -- and I actually meant to put 117 1 it on the agenda as an agenda item and forgot to. We could 2 ask the Maintenance Department to lock and unlock that 3 during the daylight hours so people can get some access to 4 it. But, during -- at night, I think we really need to keep 5 it closed. We could also ask the Sheriff's Department, in 6 the long-term plan, maybe to go by and close it at 7 7 o'clock; make sure, you know, no cars are left in there. 8 Then Maintenance could open it in the morning. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there sufficient 10 left in the grant money to -- to do the remaining things, 11 including the restrooms? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. Hope so. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Including the 14 restrooms? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, there's enough money to 17 seed and put in the picnic tables and other things and the 18 restrooms? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: But if we decide not to do 21 the restrooms, do seal-coating? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can just do more 23 additional -- the picnic table units are about $700 to $800 24 a piece, pretty expensive. Those are concrete ones. So, 25 you know, that's kind of a flex number that you can -- you 118 1 know, you can put out there, and I think we looked at doing 2 ten originally. Ten's not going very far over there. 3 That's about a mile of river frontage, so you're talking 4 about, you know, one every 500 feet. I mean, they're pretty 5 sparse on picnic tables, so you could easily almost spend 6 another $10,000 on picnic tables. The seeding, we're going 7 to be tight, but I think we can get it done. The -- we 8 should have -- you know, based on the budget number that we 9 have right now, might be a close shave for the little bit of 10 work that they have left to do. They have very little to 11 do. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I, for one, kind 13 of like the idea of having the restrooms there. However, I 14 know it's going to cause more problems, probably, than it's 15 worth. And another plus is that those folks -- I mean, how 16 long -- the Judge asked how long can you picnic without a 17 restroom? That may be a good way to run them through there 18 and get them out of there so other people can enjoy the 19 beautiful facility. But -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Maybe it would result in more 21 pollution in the river. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's not what 24 they'll do. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I don't -- I 119 1 wasn't going to go there. I'm way too nice to talk about 2 things like that. But, I think that -- I think the restroom 3 is just -- is something that we need to provide for 4 taxpayers. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, on here, 6 looking at my comment, looking at the number, this is based 7 on what we allocated for Road -- we have only authorized 8 expenditure of $160,000 so far. So, they haven't -- we 9 have -- they've only spent $140,000. We have $180,000. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- this is just -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's really the 13 question I asked. I didn't see it. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I saw you kept on going 15 through here. This is Road and Bridge's amount. We've only 16 allocated for them to spend up to this amount. And, I've 17 been, you know, talking with Leonard there -- you know, 18 basically, this -- yes, there is money. There's still 19 forty -- roughly $42,000 left in that budget. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One other question. 21 Can I tie a couple of picnic tables into your order for Flat 22 Rock Lake, you know, out on the budget for Center Point 23 Park? Tie them into your order so we can get some economies 24 of scale here? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Give me an agenda item. 120 1 We'll certainly -- yes, that can be done. And, when we 2 place that order, I'll make sure we're aware so we can have 3 an agenda item to that effect. So, I'll leave that -- 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we need a motion? Do we 5 need any action at this time? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably. I would say 7 yes, because, you know, I feel a little uncomfortable 8 talking for the Court without an order. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's talk. Seemed 10 like I kind of heard maybe three people here want to include 11 the restrooms -- four people. Four to one. That's enough. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 13 we -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No restrooms? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- leave the restrooms in 16 the concept plan, and including the seeding, which is an 17 item that was not included previously. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think seeding is a 19 big deal. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do, too. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do I have a second? 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Second. Moved by 24 Commissioner Letz, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we 25 leave the restrooms in the plan for Flat Rock Lake Park, add 121 1 seeding to the concept plan, and approve the revised concept 2 plan and permit requirements, as amended. Is that correct? 3 Jonathan? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, sir, you got it. 5 I'm trying to remember why I have permit -- 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: The floodplain permit from 7 U.G.R.A. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, my motion included 9 that. Thank you, Judge. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: I was sure it did. Any 11 further discussion? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just have a 13 question; I think I know the answer. The bridge renovation, 14 Riverside Drive, is not part of that; that's separate. Are 15 you also working on a permit for that? I'm just -- it's a 16 matter of -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have advised the -- a 18 little history -- Bill Tucker that they -- we were -- have 19 been requested for that. Since they were doing the work, I 20 thought they should provide it. He informed me that TexDOT 21 is not required to file FEMA permits. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They have a blanket 24 authority to do what they want. And FEMA told me that that 25 was not true. But, it's -- bottom line is, yeah, we're 122 1 doing it. We're supplying all the information to FEMA. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, 3 Commissioner. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved and seconded. Any 5 further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right 6 hand. 7 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Seeing that the hour draws 11 nigh till noon, we will stand in recess until 1:15. 12 (Recess taken from 11:59 a.m. to 1:15 p.m.) 13 - - - - - - - - - - 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: It is 1:15 on Monday, March 15 13th, Year 2000, and we will reconvene this regular meeting 16 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. The next item to 17 take up is Item 2.12, consider and discuss requesting the 18 Maintenance Department to go after annual bids for service 19 work. Commissioner Letz. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is one that I 21 brought up at our last meeting in relation to, I think, 22 discussion about the jail. And, I visited with Commissioner 23 Williams about it briefly, and it just seems to me it would 24 be a good idea, with the amount of work we're doing, 25 primarily in the area of plumbing and electrical, to go out 123 1 for bids, similar to what we do in Road and Bridge, and bid 2 for general service work, both on an hourly rate and a 3 cost-plus or some percentage on the material costs. 4 Right now, as I understand it, it's pretty 5 much as -- we're just going out now and we're being charged 6 whatever they feel like charging us, which I'm sure is what 7 they charge everyone else in the public. But, with the 8 amount of work we do, both in electrical and plumbing areas 9 primarily, to me, it would make sense to go out for bids on 10 that type of work. And, I think we need to make -- be 11 careful that we, you know, don't tie the Maintenance 12 Department's hands; that if we have certain kind of work 13 that needs certain expertise, such as working on the jail 14 doors or the elevators and things of that nature, that needs 15 to be excluded, but I'm talking about the general 16 service-type work. 17 As an example, I think there was one for 18 reinstalling a backflow preventer at the jail. We did that 19 this morning in the bills. And, that's the kind of thing 20 that I think is just a -- any plumber who's licensed is 21 certainly qualified to do. Just open it up to everyone in 22 the community. And, there's also -- I think it's a good 23 idea, and I really think we should expand it beyond this to 24 other departments, such as the -- primarily the Jail or the 25 Sheriff's Department, some of their work, but that would be 124 1 a different agenda item in the future. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sounds like the kind of thing 3 a Purchasing Department would do. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, without a 5 department. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Just task each department 7 head to be their own purchasing agent. Mr. Holekamp? 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: Question. And I -- I'm not 9 opposed to this by any means, but is there any way, or -- or 10 I have been trying to get some information on how to do it, 11 and I really haven't gotten anything really specific on how 12 others do it. But, how do we put in an emergency factor of 13 response time? How do I -- how will I be able to enforce 14 that? 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me answer that, 16 because we, in essence, had the same problem -- faced the 17 same challenge with the computer service bids that we put 18 out. And, what we did was we had -- we had three categories 19 of -- put three categories of labor that we wanted them to 20 quote on. We wanted them to quote an hourly rate for normal 21 business, for -- and that would be one rate. And then we 22 had a rate for 24 hours a day; in other words, the rest of 23 the time, seven days a week, in case you had a mainframe 24 failure or something of that sort, in the case of computers. 25 So, they quoted another rate that they would charge if -- if 125 1 it were if after duty hours. And, then we had what we 2 called an emergency rate; that is, we need somebody right 3 now, because we're -- you know, the government's shut down, 4 all the computers have stopped working and whatever. And -- 5 and maybe you just need the two for the kind of thing that 6 you're talking about, but one for normal working hours, and 7 then another hourly rate that's quoted the rest of the time. 8 We said during normal working hours -- we 9 specified a response time, and we said that would be -- I 10 think we ended up making that an hour, maybe two hours. 11 And, this was to any individual -- that was to any 12 individual personal computer that was down or whatever; that 13 if we called that in, we expect to see a technician within a 14 one-hour limit or the two-hour limit. If -- if you've got a 15 plumbing problem, obviously, you've got an immediate 16 response that you've got to consider, in case you've got 17 water running somewhere. But, you can tie that -- you can 18 tie them down to any degree, realizing that the shorter 19 response time and the more coverage you have, the more those 20 numbers are going to be inflated, because they're going to 21 quote you a higher number. But, if -- but on something like 22 plumbing, if you've got a problem at 2 o'clock in the 23 morning on Sunday morning, that's just as important as if it 24 happened at high noon during the middle of the week. 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: That is correct. Those are my 126 1 concerns. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think the other 3 thing to do -- I mean, I recommend, probably, we accept all 4 bids. And that way, you know, if Plumber A can't get here 5 in time, you go to Plumber B, even though the rate may a 6 little bit higher, 'cause that way you can use whoever, but 7 you need to go down that -- you know, the list as to who 8 you're going to use. And, I think the -- the other benefit 9 to doing it this way is that, you know, from a public 10 standpoint, we're opening that up, clearly, to everyone in 11 the community or anywhere that wants to bid on work for the 12 County. Whereas, right now, it's just done as what we've 13 done in the past, basically the way we tend to -- you know, 14 hire these -- and there's -- and the two, like I say, that 15 come to my mind the most are electrical needs and plumbing 16 needs. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We do -- how much 18 carpentry do we do? Any? 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: We do pretty much all of it 20 ourselves. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, okay. So, 22 probably just plumbing and electrical. 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: Air-conditioning is the other 24 one. A/C, that's a big one. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That would be another 127 1 good one; those three items. 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: I have those three listed. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: At one time we had a 5 maintenance contract with our A/C's at the jail. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: At the jail, yes. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that no longer -- 8 we still have that, don't we? 9 MR. HOLEKAMP: No, we don't have one right 10 now, huh-uh. You're right, Buster. We did. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- I don't know. 12 That may be something -- you know, it may be just as cheap, 13 if we bid this part of it, to hire whoever we use to do the 14 maintenance, or maybe we should go on a maintenance 15 contract. I mean, we did that originally because we were 16 having a whole lot of problems with those units out there. 17 I don't know if we -- if it's worthwhile to do a service 18 contract or not. I'd leave that up to your recommendation 19 as to -- you know. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not in any way 21 opposed to it, but I'm just wondering whether, you know, 22 the -- this is the time to do it, in light of the fact that 23 the Annex is not completed, and the addition of the Annex, 24 whatever its requirements are, throws another dimension into 25 a bid. 128 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the electrical 2 and the plumbing would still -- I mean, the general type 3 work -- it would just be more work, potentially. And 4 hopefully -- hopefully the construction won't be that much 5 more, and -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Probably shouldn't. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's an ongoing -- 8 it's a level-of-effort contract, so-called. It's a level of 9 effort, so we specify when we want them. What we're asking 10 them for is a quote on hourly charges. And, I suspect that 11 it's going to be a little difficult to get parts -- you 12 know, materials. That's going to be hard, working that into 13 it, but you can really get them to knock down the hourly 14 cost. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And, that -- because 17 you're saying that -- that we're going to give you all -- 18 you'll get first priority on everything. The only reason we 19 won't select you or won't task you to go do that is if you 20 say you can't within the required response time; we'll go to 21 contractor number two in that case. So, that's all we're 22 really asking them for. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably be simpler just 24 to limit it, maybe, to the hourly rate. 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: And the reason I agree with 129 1 that, because we get -- the County gets the same discount 2 that those plumbers get from the suppliers. They can go to 3 those supply houses and get the parts that they need, and 4 the County gets a break if we fund it ourselves. We can do 5 it that way, like, whether it be supplies or parts or 6 whatever. So, we already get that same discount. So, we -- 7 they're really -- if we do the parts, they can't mark them 8 up. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. That's even 10 better. 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: Be just an hourly rate, 12 period. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, there should be -- 14 MR. HOLEKAMP: Might be some special items 15 that would be outside of our scope that we could get -- 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: We also get a sales tax 17 exemption on those. 18 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's eight and a quarter 20 percent. 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We get that, anyway. 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: But, that could be worked up 24 in this R.F.P. thing, just the hourly rate. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. That would be 130 1 probably simpler. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To get it going. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: And the question, I think, 5 Commissioner Williams had is, if I'm not mistaken, for a 6 year or two, all of that should be warranted by the builder, 7 I would imagine. Usually those are a year or two years on 8 all air-conditioning, all of that. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Including the 10 elevator? 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: Oh -- oh, I would imagine so, 12 yes. I would think so. Except the old one. The old one 13 over here -- over there. And there's only one that can work 14 on it, so he's kind of got us. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, then, I'll make a 16 motion and request the Maintenance Department go out for 17 annual bids for service work for plumbing, electrical, and 18 HVAC. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll second that 20 motion. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 22 seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Maintenance 23 Department be requested to prepare and go out for bids for 24 electrical, plumbing, and HVAC services for all County-owned 25 or leased facilities. Any further discussion? If not, all 131 1 in favor, raise your right hand. 2 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item on 6 the agenda is Item 2.14, consider and discuss moving the 7 administrative office for the Plateau Planning Group, Region 8 J, to Kerr County Courthouse. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is kind of a little 10 bit of a strange request I'm making. The Plateau Region 11 had -- was -- the secretary was previously Cameron Coronet 12 with Springhills Water Management District, and he used 13 their office as the administrative office, which makes sense 14 to have it for the secretary's office. Cameron resigned as 15 secretary, but is still on our board. We've made 16 arrangements to have -- the new Administrative Assistant 17 lives in Comfort. The problem is that the office is in 18 Kendall County. And, in talking with the Water Development 19 Board, while they weren't definite that it was against the 20 rules of having -- because of Open Records requirements, if 21 our records are subject to the Open Records, to have the 22 open -- to have the location of those records located 23 outside one of the six counties in the region. And, they 24 didn't think it was necessarily illegal, but they 25 discouraged us doing it that way. 132 1 So, what I'd like to propose is that the 2 files be housed physically in my office and in my file 3 cabinet. There are not that many. And then a request -- if 4 anyone wants access to them, I'll just leave the request 5 form with Administrative Assistant for Commissioners Court, 6 leave them with her. It goes in my box and it's handled, 7 you know, that way. There'd be no work here. The files 8 would then be taken to Comfort, or we can meet them 9 somewhere, whether they want to meet at U.G.R.A.'s office, 10 or make arrangements to get the files that are requested to 11 the person requesting. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What kind of files are 13 you talking about that would be requested? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These are just our 15 administrative files, correspondence primarily, drafts of 16 chapters and plans. Just the -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there much of that? 18 Many requests? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think we've ever 20 had one. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it's -- but it's 23 possible that -- they are subject to the Open Records, so 24 they've got to be -- you know, a procedure has to be there. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Has to be there 133 1 somewhere, yeah. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, as you get your studies 3 in and your drafts of your plans, you may find more 4 requests. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Now, one thing; 7 this -- and this is just related. Once the -- the plan is 8 put together and all six chapters are completed and adopted 9 by our board, then it will be on file in every County 10 Clerk's office in the county, every library and other -- and 11 some other offices, as well. But, definitely libraries and 12 the County Clerk's office in each county. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And on the net. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, on the internet. 15 So -- and we could have a certain number of those, if 16 someone wanted to come by and -- and pick one up. I could 17 probably leave some here; they could just, you know, have a 18 price -- we have set a price for them. I'm sure we'll make 19 it minimal; it will be a fairly large document, but we could 20 do that or we could just collect the name and mail it to 21 them, too, you know, during the probably 30- or 45-day 22 review period. The plan should be ready for -- to go out to 23 the public hearing phase in late July, and then they'll 24 be -- you know, that process going up to October 1st, we'll 25 turn it in to the State. But, you know, really, we get very 134 1 little -- I mean, there's nothing really in our files, but 2 they are open to the public and need to be open to the 3 public. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Certainly. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? I 6 have two concerns I'm going to voice. And, one, I just want 7 to -- a parochial concern, but I don't want our 8 Administrative Assistant tasked with more than handing out 9 and accepting the forms. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, I agree. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Because there's a lot there, 12 potentially. Secondly, I think you need to think clearly 13 through your response to Open Records Act, because, really, 14 available materials are supposed to be handled immediately. 15 And, you need to think -- I'm just kind of giving you a 16 heads-up. You need to think about time frame, because 17 something like a study or a plan, if there is a couple weeks 18 lag between the time someone comes here and requests them 19 and the time you're able to get with them and hand them out, 20 you may find yourself under some criticism for that. But 21 that's a separate entity. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think -- doesn't it 23 say 10 days? 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, the law says that you 25 have to handle -- give the materials out as soon as 135 1 possible. You have 10 days within which to request an 2 exception from the Attorney General's Office. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: But, there is -- this is like 5 a voter's list. If someone came into Paula Rector's office 6 and asked for a voter's list, it's supposed to be available 7 as soon as they can produce it. So, that's just kind of a 8 general caution, and really has nothing to do with -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- the business at hand. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I appreciate that. 12 It's -- you know, this is not, certainly, the preferred 13 method of doing it, but it's a -- it's a quick fix for the 14 time being. U.G.R.A. did not want to do it, because they're 15 also the political entity and they felt there ought to be a 16 separation there, plus Jim didn't want people coming over to 17 his office. So -- you know. But, anyway, this is a -- 18 hopefully not a long-term solution, but we need something -- 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sure. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- short-term for a 21 while. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's been moved by 23 Commissioner Letz, seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that -- 24 let me look at the language here -- the Court approve moving 25 the administrative office for the Plateau Planning Group to 136 1 the Kerr County Courthouse. Any further discussion? If 2 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 3 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Final item 7 on our agenda is Item Number 15, consider and discuss 8 proposed draft of Kerr County Subdivision Rules and 9 Regulations and set the public hearing for same. We have a 10 request from Mr. Sam Beaumont to address us on this issue. 11 So, Mr. Beaumont, if you want to come forward at this time? 12 MR. BEAUMONT: I'm Sam Beaumont, and I am a 13 member of the Coalition of Concerned Citizens, but I'm here 14 today as an individual. As I read these -- or this 15 proposal, it basically is an infringement on property rights 16 and certainly attacks the right of capture. This is an 17 issue that I personally feel very strongly about, and I 18 would encourage you folks to take that under consideration. 19 The second issue is that you already have a remedy for this 20 entire thing under Senate Bill -- I believe it's 1323, which 21 became effective in September of '99. And, that was 22 introduced by Senator Wentworth and says that, really, the 23 only requirement that the State would put upon the 24 Commissioners Court would be that the plat application have 25 a statement attached prepared by a professional engineer 137 1 certifying that adequate ground water is available for the 2 subdivision. That, I believe, is a more beneficial 3 procedure from a cost standpoint. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, in response to that, 5 Mr. Beaumont, I have available, if you'd like to see them, 6 regulations which T.N.R.C.C. will be adopting in about six 7 weeks to implement that bill, and I guarantee you, they're 8 much stronger and much more onerous than what we have in the 9 draft regulation. 10 MR. BEAUMONT: I would certainly like to get a 11 copy of them, because the information we have right now is 12 that, you know, they're not that onerous. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I -- I would disagree 14 with that, but I'll let you make your own evaluation. 15 MR. BEAUMONT: Excellent. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: But -- 17 MR. BEAUMONT: Yeah, I'd appreciate it. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: For instance, there are no 19 exceptions in the T.N.R.C.C. regulations. 20 MR. BEAUMONT: Okay. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: There is no provision for 22 only one well in the T.N.R.C.C. regulations. 23 MR. BEAUMONT: Okay. Well, I'd like to see 24 that if I can't get it on the internet. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: If you'll call me, I'll be 138 1 happy to -- to provide you with what I have. What I have is 2 a draft of the regulations which I got from the T.N.R.C.C. 3 about a month ago. 4 MR. BEAUMONT: If that's in that draft form, 5 then I won't be able to access it. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I think their timeline 7 for actually adopting those regulations is early May. 8 MR. BEAUMONT: Okay. Well, I'll give you a 9 call, get a copy. And, then, another issue is I don't 10 believe that, with the available science, that you can be 11 conclusive enough to support the approach that's detailed 12 here. I think that possibly if the Court would wait until 13 Region J had finished its work and had a more detailed 14 analysis of what is available here and what the recharge is, 15 that it would certainly be more appropriate than going ahead 16 with this today. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: We -- I appreciate that, and 18 this has been a concern of mine for some time. However, 19 Bandera County, Comal County, Hays County, Kendall County 20 all feel that there's sufficient science to be going ahead, 21 and they already have regulations like this in place. 22 Furthermore, there is a model of the Trinity Aquifer, which 23 is to be disclosed on -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Friday. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- Friday, which is being 139 1 done by U.T.S.A. and Texas Water Development Board. 2 MR. BEAUMONT: I understand that, but I think -- 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: The way these regulations are 4 written, it requires only a certificate from an engineer 5 that, in his opinion, based upon the results of the tests 6 and any other information available, there is sufficient 7 ground water, or a determination by the Headwaters, if an 8 individual doesn't want to go to the expense of hiring an 9 engineer to evaluate the test, that there is sufficient 10 ground water available. We've intentionally or 11 unintentionally tried to provide people an alternative so in 12 a smaller subdivision where, perhaps, they don't have a 13 registered professional engineer doing anything other than 14 the minimum amount, that there's another avenue available 15 for them to approach the Court on this issue. 16 MR. BEAUMONT: Okay. Well, again, you know -- 17 and, just in summary, I'd like to urge anybody that does 18 support property rights and does support the right of 19 capture to try to come up with some other plan, and not to 20 accept this as it's issued today. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. . 22 MR. BEAUMONT: That's all have I to say. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Does anyone else have any 24 questions for Mr. Beaumont? Thank you, sir. 25 MR. BEAUMONT: Okay. 140 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other comments? 2 Discussion? 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We are -- we are 4 accepting this and have to set a public hearing date, right? 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: If we want to move forward 8 with this, we have to approve a -- a draft which will be 9 available to the public and until a public hearing date, at 10 which time we will, after the hearing, adopt, or modify and 11 adopt or whatever we want to do, the actual rules. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, first, I guess -- 13 you know, I think Mr. Beaumont got us off on water 14 availability real quick, and there's another large document 15 which relates to it. First -- I mean, 'cause water 16 availability, I certainly have some comments about that and 17 the language that you came up with, Judge. But, there's 18 probably more agreement on everything else, so let's -- 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- go there first. I 21 think the changes were incorporated in the rest of it. Did 22 everyone have a chance to make sure that the comments that 23 they have were incorporated in the remainder of the 24 Subdivision Rules? 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: I did. 141 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Your comments on the 2 on-site septic rules, Bill? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They're incorporated, 4 yes. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: And, on the manufactured home 7 rental, y'all went back and put the definitions in, which 8 puts everything in proper -- proper perspective. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. The -- one thing 10 that I have not yet done is, the routing slip is still 11 working through, but that can be handled through the 12 public -- I think during the next 30 days, that can be 13 worked out, and any changes that need to be made with the 14 routing slip can be incorporated at the public hearing, at 15 the time of the public hearing. So, the -- and the main 16 questions there are exact verbiage between some of the other 17 entities who sign, such as 911 -- I know T's had problems 18 frequently with the language that we put in there last time 19 that he gave us. And, I know some of the electric companies 20 have contacted me; they would like the opportunity to review 21 it. But, everyone agrees with that. Water. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait a minute. Wait a 23 minute. I had a question outside of water. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's under 6.02(e)5, I 142 1 think. This is the part about no lot -- no sale of lots of 2 any subdivision shall begin until the Court has approved the 3 final plat. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's pretend that it 6 happens anyway. And, in -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Never. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And -- well, my point 9 is, you know, if we don't penalize people or catch them, why 10 have this stuff in here? But, is there a penalty? How do 11 you penalize somebody? Or are we just saying, "Please don't 12 do that"? 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Talking about -- well, 14 for one thing, you wouldn't record the purchase without a 15 valid plat. You're not going to -- it can't be recorded, 16 right? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think so. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It can't be -- they 19 won't record it without a valid plat. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: The Clerk doesn't have the 21 ability not to record it. If you present a properly 22 acknowledged deed to the Clerk, they have no -- no 23 alternative but to accept the document for recording, so 24 that's not a safeguard. Any safeguard would come if the -- 25 the purchaser wants title insurance or if the purchaser's 143 1 financing the purchase through a federally-insured financial 2 institution, he'll get kicked out at that point if it's 3 not -- if it's not properly platted. But, there's -- 4 there's a lot of ways for that to slip through. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think enforceability is 6 a big issue throughout here. Well, this is just one of 7 those issues that has always just been kind of keen to me 8 for years and years and years, and we've seen this happen 9 for years around here. And, I'm glad it's here, but I -- as 10 I was going through it last night, I got to thinking, "Well, 11 you know, how do you -- how do you stop them from doing it?" 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have an enforcement 13 provision in here, which is Section 12, Page 52. Offense is 14 a Class B misdemeanor, which a criminal penalty is 15 prescribed by the Local Government Code. Also, we can seek 16 an injunction to stop the violation. Now, to what extent 17 that really puts any teeth into the Subdivision Regulations 18 is another question. Depends upon the Court's willingness 19 to -- to actually undertake the enforcement on the action. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I mean -- 21 historically, I mean, it's -- whenever we've had a developer 22 do this, we pretty much call them in and slap their hand, 23 tell them they're not supposed to do that. But, you know, I 24 don't know how you go much further than that, really. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Until do you it once, nobody 144 1 believes you'll do it. But I've seen this Court, over this 2 last year, take action against private utilities for failing 3 to -- to properly, you know, put in what easements in the 4 County right-of-way. So, I think it's entirely possible 5 that this Court would approve of enforcement action in the 6 event of any substantial violation of these rules and 7 regulations. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Water availability. 9 I'm in agreement with Mr. Beaumont on the point of -- that I 10 just don't think that the science is complete to -- for us 11 to put this strong of regulations in. I think that -- in my 12 mind, anyway, the study that the Plateau Region are in the 13 middle of and working on would be, to me, to be the science 14 to come out. And I'm not saying that I'm not in favor of 15 this kind of thing or -- or a compromise or something like 16 that. I think that we need to have the test wells and we 17 need to have data. You can see many things that we deal 18 with. We couldn't deal with it without the data that has 19 been presented. I'm not saying that I'm not in favor of 20 these kind of things. I just think that it's a little 21 bit -- in my -- in my opinion, it's a little bit early to -- 22 to put this strong of language in here. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: In response, I would have to 24 -- as the author of the language, really, Bandera County has 25 had stronger regulations in place for about a year and a 145 1 half. Their aquifer conditions are probably the most 2 similar to ours of any of the surrounding counties, and they 3 have the -- Kevin Barnett is probably one of the leading 4 Underground Water Trinity people, certainly, in the state, 5 so they don't have any trouble with stronger regulations 6 than what these are, as far as science is concerned. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. There's 8 lots of things I don't agree with Kevin on. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know that they're 10 much stronger, but, you know, it depends on how you look at 11 it. I guess my comment is, you know, first, the -- I don't 12 want -- I want to -- on the Region J plan, I don't think 13 we're going to come out with anything that earth-shattering 14 in the next three or four months that's going to change a 15 lot. We're going to have some numbers that I think there's 16 a strong consensus on when it comes to -- that you can pin 17 your hat as to usage and population projections and things 18 like that. But, when it comes to science, there's not going 19 to be anything particularly new in there. 20 As to the current Trinity model, it is a 21 great foundation, but it is absolutely a regional model. It 22 will not tell you anything about water in any specific 23 point. So, to say that -- you know, we're not going to get 24 that science from the Trinity model that's going to be -- 25 it's already been announced. I've talked with John Ashworth 146 1 at length about this, and Cameron Coronet and others, and 2 they all say they're -- we are absolutely not to the point 3 that we can say, okay, what's it -- what is the likelihood 4 of getting a certain type of well in the Center Point area? 5 This doesn't -- it doesn't give you that. There's not 6 enough data in the model that gives you -- that might give 7 you a general thickness. The only way that we know what is 8 going to be, you know, below any specific drill site is to 9 drill a well. 10 Falling Water Subdivision is a real good 11 example. They wanted a public water system; they had to 12 drill eight wells to find wells that they could use for a 13 public water system. So, they -- you know, the fact -- and 14 those wells varied from virtually nonproductive to about 120 15 gallons a minute. And, that's an 800-acre subdivision. 16 Drilling one or two wells is not going to guarantee -- and 17 they have the size lots that they could drill individual 18 wells. They chose not to. But, drilling two wells does 19 not -- you know, it might give you a little bit more 20 likelihood of finding water, but it doesn't tell you much 21 about what the next well is going to be in -- in a 22 subdivision. So, I think that -- you know, there's a -- 23 some science to be gained from thickness of formations and 24 some other things, but I'm -- productive capabilities of 25 wells, I just don't think you get there by drilling wells in 147 1 a subdivision or two test wells in -- you know, in an area. 2 I think that there's -- you know, I'm not 3 dead-set against everything in here. I think that it's a -- 4 I mentioned -- I think I voiced last time that it would be 5 great if we could -- we need more data, we need more wells, 6 test wells in areas. You know, I hate to require developers 7 or anyone from a private property standpoint to spend money, 8 but I think John Ashworth recently told me, you know, the 9 tide is changing in the state; that it is becoming -- water 10 is a commodity. The thinking is changing a little bit. 11 And, after thinking about some of his comments, I probably 12 moved a little bit towards requiring something from a well 13 standpoint, but I'm not as far along as what the Judge has 14 come up with. 15 And, one of my main reasons is -- and then I 16 can get into some of the specific language problems I 17 have -- Kerr County is not a homogenous, big area that 18 all -- one need fits all. The majority of Larry's area to 19 the west doesn't use the Trinity Aquifer; they use the 20 Edwards, and there's no problems. This is really totally 21 unnecessary everywhere on the Divide to the west. Their 22 wells, they -- I mean, the depth to get down to the Trinity 23 and a lot of the science that we're all talking about right 24 now doesn't apply. You know, the Y.O. Ranch, those wells 25 are 100 feet from the Edwards. That's a great formation, 148 1 great water. You know if they go dry, it's for totally 2 different reasons, because they have recharge in very local 3 areas for those wells, and there's not much in here that's 4 really, in my opinion, applicable to that formation. 5 So, I think that there's other areas -- if 6 you go -- there's statements made in here about going to 7 surface water as the preferred way. Well, it may be 8 preferred in areas. But, if you live in far southeastern 9 Kerr County or up towards, you know, far northeastern Kerr 10 County, it's not an option. I mean, ground surface -- 11 ground water is your only option, and will be for quite 12 awhile. So, I think it's -- you almost have to look at the 13 area around Kerrville and along the river; maybe Ingram to 14 Center Point area is different than the rest of the county, 15 from the water standpoint. And, I don't see the flexibility 16 in this language, the way it is right now. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I would disagree with 18 that, because it's totally flexible. I mean, first of all, 19 this only applies to subdivisions. I don't think you're 20 going to get many subdivisions out by the Divide. Maybe so, 21 maybe not. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't think so. 23 MR. BEAUMONT: There's already one that's out 24 there. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sir? 149 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: It has the -- 2 MR. BEAUMONT: I said there's already one 3 subdivision that's out there in the Divide area. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: It has the same requirements. 5 I mean, if it's easier to prove water availability out of 6 the Edwards rather than -- it's a lot cheaper than it is out 7 of the -- out of a Trinity well. It -- it's not specific to 8 any area. In my opinion, it provides a set of standards 9 that can be applied anywhere in the county. And, again, 10 it's not -- it's only about the subdivisions; we're not 11 talking about individual owners. If somebody buys a piece 12 of ground that is their own and they're not subdividing, 13 this doesn't come into play. This is only about 14 subdivisions. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but -- into a few 16 of the specifics, though, if you look at -- if you're going 17 to divide one lot into two lots, they are going to be 18 20-acre lots, you've got to drill a well. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That is unreasonable, in 21 my mind. One, I think it's -- I mean, it really drives the 22 cost of that up, and there's -- you know, from a dollar 23 standpoint, in selling that one 20-acre tract, I think it's 24 unreasonable. And, also, what -- 50 acres or whatever 25 number you use is purely arbitrary. Why not come up with -- 150 1 I mean, if you look at -- based on the recharge numbers and 2 the worst-case scenarios during drought, probably a more 3 realistic number would be 10 acres. But, you know, those 4 numbers are still being worked out for the region by Mr. 5 Ashworth. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, the reason for 50 acres 7 is that -- for people who are doing small developments. My 8 opinion was I didn't want to put as heavy an economic burden 9 on those people as the ones that are doing the major -- you 10 know, 800 acres, 1,000 acres, like we're seeing done. So, 11 you know, if someone's got a -- basically, the -- you know, 12 family plot, small farm, and they want to divide it up into 13 several lots, yeah, they still need to -- in my opinion, to 14 justify the fact there's sufficient water for the 15 subdivision, but that justification doesn't need to be as 16 extensive and expensive as someone who's doing Cypress 17 Springs or Comanche Trace, even though that's -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, you don't think it's 19 onerous, if I'm going to -- you know, sell 10 acres to 20 someone, that have I to drill a well for them? 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: If you're going to come in 22 and subdivide it, you're going to come in and meet all the 23 road requirements and the drainage requirements and all the 24 other things. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I just had a thought 151 1 that -- and maybe this is better made -- in fact, I think 2 maybe this whole discussion will probably have to be 3 repeated to some degree at the public hearing, but maybe 4 what I'm about to say falls under the same category. I 5 mean, what about an in-between situation? You know, here, 6 obviously, below some level we're not going to let people 7 subdivide, period. Okay, that's in there. Nobody is 8 arguing the with that. Above some number, we're going to 9 say, gosh, that's so big, you know, if you're selling 10 100-acre tracts, you know, that we don't get involved. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's in here. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's in here. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything with a minimum lot 15 size of 25 acres or more -- 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- doesn't fall under the -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What I'm saying is 19 that there's some in-between region here that we're talking 20 about, whatever those numbers may be. What if we said -- 21 put that option -- which I think certainly gets to the rule 22 of capture well enough. But, what if we said, in that broad 23 middle thing there, that it's up to the subdivider -- and 24 hear me out, 'cause that sounds pretty strong -- it's up to 25 the subdivider, but if they choose not to do the test 152 1 well -- wells or whatever process we have set up, I don't 2 know, that you got to have a big red stamp on all the plats 3 that says, "This property is being sold with the 4 understanding..." And bought with the understanding there 5 may not be a drop of water anywhere on it. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's a possibility in the 7 broader sense of what might work, but I'm not sure it's a 8 legal possibility, because I don't think the law gives us 9 the ability to do that. The law gives us the ability to 10 require people who come in for a plat to prove water 11 availability. I'm not sure that you can flip it on its head 12 and say we can say anything about a plat that doesn't meet 13 that requirement. See what I'm saying? I'm not sure we 14 have the legislative ability. We'd have to get an opinion 15 on -- as to whether we could put that type of a legend on a 16 plat. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Because, really, what 18 we're doing here is -- and the reason for the thought -- 19 and, again, its a brainstorm, but what we're doing here is 20 trying to protect the buyer. Are we trying to make sure 21 there's full disclosure that there may or may not -- what 22 we're hoping is -- is that we can certify that there is 23 water available there. Is ground water available to 24 Mr. Jones for this -- and it's been certified, and for your 25 30-acre tracts or your 20-acre tracts out here that you're 153 1 buying, there's water available, 'cause the guy that 2 subdivided it said so, and because he had tests run, 3 whatever he did. So, we're really protecting the buyer. If 4 we say it's caveat emptor, if it's -- if it's, you buy, but 5 if there isn't any water there, that's your problem; it 6 ain't the guy that sold it to you, it ain't the County's 7 problem, it's not U.G.R.A.'s or Concerned Citizens' or 8 anybody else. You just don't have any water. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: If that's a legal option, 10 then that's something that I -- I think that we could look 11 at for subdivisions up to a certain size. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't -- 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And it may not be 14 legal. I'm just wondering. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think if we can, you 16 know, lower the limits, I'd have a lot less heartburn about 17 it. I'm not sure I'm going to vote for it, but, you know, 18 if it gets down to -- closer to 10 than 50-acre limit, you 19 know, because there is a point, based on the geology in this 20 area, that you start mining on a small acreage basis. I 21 think 25 acres is way too large. It's about 10 acres, from 22 the numbers that I've heard most recently, but those get 23 modified. Basically, I think the Judge and have I talked 24 previously about, you know, how you do -- you change the 25 recharge factor by 1 percent and you totally change the 154 1 water availability. I mean, it's a very big, you know, 2 unknown right now. But, based on Cameron Coronet's 3 request -- and in Bandera County we're adding in our tables 4 a per-acre recharge number, which will help us. And, the 5 draft is -- this is changing. It's -- right now it looks 6 like Middle Trinity, 89 gallons per day is recharged. And, 7 if you equate that out to the 2.8 persons, it comes out to 8 plus or minus 10 acres. So, you know, to sustain -- 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: That -- I mean that's 10 certainly legitimate. I would be hesitant to go down to 10, 11 but if we're talking 10, 15, a little cushion there, I think 12 we're getting in the ballpark. It's not just the purchaser 13 of that particular tract, but it's the people who live next 14 door, as well. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: You have to understand the 18 concept. You've got a big glass, a big bowl of water, and 19 every straw you stick in there that takes water out of it 20 also affects the guy who's pulling on the straw next door. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Within reason. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: You keep pouring more water 24 in there, but there comes a point in time -- that's really 25 what we're talking about -- where you can't add enough water 155 1 naturally to keep it from being depleted. And, we're 2 actually at that point, because if you look at the -- the 3 stats from the Headwaters, all the water levels in the test 4 wells are below what they were in 1992. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Each of the test wells has 7 had a record low in the last 12 months. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But, if you go -- 9 the '90's have been a relatively dry decade, versus the 10 '70's and the '80's. And, we don't have enough data, but if 11 you go back and look at the charts, even through the '90's, 12 when we get a -- '97 was a wetter year than the years before 13 or after. The wells rebounded substantially. They may not 14 have got back to the peak, but they -- it's not like we have 15 a curve going like this; we have a curve going like this. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, but -- that's true, but 17 when you plot it -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Since -- 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: When you plot since '92, the 20 curve is like this. Now, the actual numbers for the years 21 may be like this, but if you plot all of the -- of the data, 22 the curve is distinctly on a downward slope. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Distinctly for a very dry 24 decade, for probably the driest decade we've had this 25 century. 156 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Drier than the '50's. 3 The drought of record for Kerr County is likely 1996 for the 4 Guadalupe River's flow. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I'd have a problem with 6 that, since I have people telling me that in 1957, there was 7 no water in the Guadalupe River, period. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The flood gauges in 9 Comfort were -- you know, and I agree; I've heard those 10 numbers too, but the numbers in the -- that the Water 11 Development Board reported from the -- the meters they 12 have -- which there's a Comfort meter, there's a U.G.R.A dam 13 meter. Anyway, it was lower in -- I think it was '96, but 14 anyway, that's neither here nor there. Either way. Either 15 way, the -- I mean, the '90's has been a downward trend. 16 And, the -- from what -- and I have to rely on John 17 Ashworth, who we hired as a consultant. Their numbers show 18 that -- you know, basically a flat level in the aquifer. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's true. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In the past and the 21 future. I mean, we're -- it's not a downward curve, 22 level-wise. I mean -- 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Judge, can I go back 24 to your analogy for a minute? So, what we do is we set the 25 acreage -- we set the acreage to limit the number of straws 157 1 we can stick in the -- in the bowl. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: We set the acreage to limit 3 the number of straws that can go in without having to do a 4 test. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. Right. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: My proposal, which is based 7 on my discussions with different people, was 25 acres, but 8 if we have science that indicates that's way overboard, 9 well, let's come closer to the science. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm. So, the 11 question is, there's one set of data that -- one data set 12 that says, hey, maybe you -- it's 50, and another for 25, 13 and another that says, hey, it may be closer to 10. So, 14 maybe we can work that number around in there to, as you 15 say, build a little pad, but come closer to maybe what the 16 real science is, or what the real situation is. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sure. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I can -- you 19 know, that is a big step towards me. The other thing I 20 think that there should be a -- open the -- I guess I have a 21 problem -- well, if you lower the acreage requirements down 22 to 10 acres -- 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Or 12 or 15. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or even if it was 12, 25 whatever that is, it would make it a lot easier from the 158 1 standpoint -- 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Or 15. Now he's 3 negotiating. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Started at 25, and he's at 5 10, so we need to go to 18 next. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I still -- I think a 7 minimum number of lots should enter into it. I think if 8 you're just doing one lot or replatting and selling a lot, 9 it's just -- 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think that's legitimate. I 11 mean, if you -- if you're talking about, let's say, a -- set 12 some parameters -- a subdivision where you come in where 13 there are no -- you know, the maximum number is five lots, 14 and there's -- the average size is 5 acres. Now, just 15 throwing numbers off the top of my head, you know, I think 16 that can be an exemption. I don't have a problem with that, 17 because the impact you're making on the aquifer is -- is 18 significantly less. And, I think that really addresses your 19 areas -- your concern about the outlying areas in the 20 county, because those are the types of subdivisions that are 21 probably going to be developed in those areas. Actually, 22 the types of subdivisions that are going to be developed in 23 those areas are ones that are going to have more than 24 25-acre lots, much less 10 to 15, so they fall out, anyway. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's really sort of a 159 1 -- it's sort of a well-per-acre limit, is what you're trying 2 to get to. It's a number of wells per acre for an area, is 3 it not? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's basically -- it's 5 like going to a -- changing the lot size substantially, and 6 if you're going to go to smaller than that, you've got to 7 prove there's water at that -- 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't have a real 10 problem with that, because it is an unknown, I mean, as to 11 what that lot size should be exactly and what the acreage -- 12 you just don't know, because the Trinity's not a uniform 13 aquifer. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If I've got 100 acres 15 out here and I divide it in two, that's not much -- well -- 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Wouldn't be close. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. Let's say I 18 divide it into five. That's 20 acres, right? I divide it 19 in five. That may not be much of a problem, but if I make 20 it 5-acre lots out of that same 100 acres, I could be 21 creating a real problem. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: What we're doing -- I mean, 23 what Jonathan's science shows is that -- it's an excellent 24 point, is that you have 10 acres recharge, based on your 25 per-acre recharge numbers, sufficient to support a typical 160 1 household in Kerr County on an annual basis. So, if you go 2 10 acres, or you go with a little cushion, then that tract 3 is -- is not drawing down the aquifer and it's not taking 4 water from the guy next door, which is really what we're 5 trying to get at. Where do we set the standard so that 6 people are really utilizing their water and not infringing 7 upon the neighbor's ability to draw water? And, that -- I 8 mean, that's -- that's where I'm trying to get, is how do we 9 come to that? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, I think -- I mean, I 11 can agree on where we are there -- see, Larry? You're 12 right. But, the -- 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I guess he's still 14 negotiating. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- the question I 16 have -- and this is specific, and maybe the Judge has an 17 answer -- there's a provision under the public water system 18 section that prohibits the drilling of additional wells if 19 you're on a public system. Well, there are some 20 subdivisions -- or there could be some, if there's not now, 21 that may have some limit to agricultural use, and I think 22 that we need to -- it would make sense to drill shallow 23 wells that aren't sufficient for potable purposes for 24 humans, that are good for livestock or irrigation, and we 25 should almost encourage those so we're not using valuable 161 1 Trinity water for watering, you know, livestock or gardens 2 or lawns or anything like that. So, it's almost, you know, 3 like modify -- I see that part modified a little bit. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: I wouldn't have a problem 5 with that. I think I'd want to put in, though, so long as 6 it's less than so many gallons. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Per day. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The other big area of 10 concern I have is Headwaters. The language throughout 11 frequently is, kind of, "Kerr County Commissioners Court/ 12 Headwaters" reviews this stuff. If -- 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, that's not exactly 14 true. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or under review. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: As I told Mr. Beaumont, what 17 I tried to do was craft a situation where, if you had a 18 small landowner who couldn't afford a registered 19 professional engineer to come in and drill the holes and do 20 the test results -- and it doesn't have to be a registered 21 professional engineer who drills the hole and does the test 22 results. I mean, the well drillers in Kerr County do this 23 every day. I'm trying to set up a situation where, if they 24 didn't want to go to the expense of having an engineer come 25 in and do the well and evaluate the tests, than they could 162 1 do the wells, have their driller do the wells, which he's 2 doing anyway, take the test results, which he has to do 3 anyway, and take them to some objective third party, who 4 would give us an opinion as to whether or not there was 5 adequate water. And, the only one that I was aware of in 6 Kerr County was Headwaters. That's the philosophy, is to 7 give the landowner options. They don't have to necessarily 8 go out and hire a registered professional engineer to drill 9 the test well or test wells and evaluate the results. We 10 have a government body, in effect, in Kerr County that's 11 charged with conserving and preserving the underground water 12 source. But, let that guy go to them. I mean, it doesn't 13 do any good for that guy to bring the test results to me, 14 because they're Greek to me. Now, maybe one of you guys 15 want to step up and be the evaluator, but, you know, I 16 don't. And I don't know of any other department within the 17 County that could do that. So, since we have Headwaters, 18 fortunately, my -- my thought was to have them involved with 19 that individual who did not want to go to the expense of 20 having a registered professional engineer supervise and 21 evaluate the test. Now, if have you a better solution -- 22 you know, if you don't want to put Headwaters in it at all, 23 all that does is put the burden on the landowner to go and 24 hire the engineer. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess the way I was 163 1 reading it, it was -- I read it a little bit differently 2 than what you're saying right now. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's my intent. If I 4 didn't express it well, then -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can reread it, I guess. 6 The concern was -- and this came out of talking with 7 Springhills. Their idea was you're wasting your time even 8 having this if you don't have staff to go out, whether it's 9 our staff or Headwaters or someone to go out and check. 10 Because the drillers and all that, in Bandera County, 11 anyway, are -- and in their mind -- Cameron's mind, are not 12 reliable enough. You have got to -- just like O.S.S.F.; 13 it's the same type of mind-set, that you've got to have an 14 inspector, you've got to have it checked. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, this doesn't in any way 16 supersede the Headwaters responsibility as far as their 17 drilling requirements. I mean, the landowner, the 18 developer, if he has to drill a test well, he'll still have 19 to drill it in accordance with the Headwaters and meet all 20 the specifications of the Headwaters. So, what -- we're not 21 interfering with the drilling process. All we're doing is 22 taking the results and asking the landowner to either hire 23 an engineer to evaluate the results or to go to Headwaters 24 and have Headwaters evaluate the results. Give them an 25 option, because I think we need to do that. 164 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, the driller has 2 to take the data anyway, 'cause he has to file it with the 3 State. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: He has to file it with 5 Headwaters, too. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, he files it with 7 Headwaters, which ends up at the State, so it's essentially 8 the same form, even flow rates and whatever's in it and what 9 levels it came from and all that kind of stuff. That's just 10 a well report, and that goes to Headwaters anyway, doesn't 11 it? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's right. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So they can evaluate 14 it. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: They could evaluate it, if 16 that's what -- if that's -- I'm trying to give them an 17 option. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: So that -- you know, someone 20 may have a particular bias against the Headwaters. That 21 comes up; we're all people. So, in that instance, they have 22 the alternative of engaging their own engineer, and we rely 23 upon that engineer's professionalism and his license to give 24 us an opinion on the results. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't see anything 165 1 wrong with that philosophy at all. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: I really want to give people 3 a chance -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- so they're not locked into 6 one particular method of -- of dealing with this situation. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Letz, will you get off 8 that now? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've got a dentist 10 appointment in 20 minutes. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's the reason; you don't 12 want to go. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That drags out all 14 afternoon. How bad an appointment is it? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have to read it again. 16 In my reading, I was looking for a different point of view; 17 that they were more of an oversight, as opposed to a -- 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- assistance. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't -- you know, what 21 Bandera does, they send everything to Springhills. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To Springhills. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Springhills, in essence, 24 advises Bandera Commissioners Court as to whether there's 25 sufficient water or not. 166 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: I was not, in my own mind, 3 comfortable with putting Headwaters in that same situation 4 at this time. So, I -- again, the State is the registered 5 professional engineer, and, you know, they're pretty strong 6 on their requirements. So, that's why. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, my last comment is 8 on the -- goes back to what the Judge started with, in your 9 beginning portion where you cite Chapter 232. Do we want to 10 cite that? I mean, because if you -- if you're going under 11 the new authority the County's got, then you have to use, 12 likely, the new T.N.R.C.C. rules, and I don't think we want 13 that. So, I think we're better if we only cite the PGMA 14 Rules. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Right, you're correct. 16 You're correct. I think that's absolutely right. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Otherwise, we're only 18 going on the basis of Chapter 35 -- Section 35.019 of the 19 Texas Water Code. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we're scratching 21 the Chapter 232? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what you're 24 saying? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, because it's -- 167 1 'cause I have looked at the draft T.N.R.C.C. rules, and 2 they're very onerous. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Would you agree with my 4 statement to Mr. Beaumont that what we're proposing here is 5 much more lenient than the State is? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, without question. 7 MR. BEAUMONT: I'd still like to review that, 8 and have some -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've got a copy of them, 10 as well. 11 MR. BEAUMONT: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's go back to -- 13 let's go back to Commissioner Griffin's comments earlier 14 about putting language on the -- on a plat that says 15 you're -- you're buying at your own risk; there may or may 16 not be water down there. And, Judge, you said that you 17 didn't -- you didn't know or didn't think, possibly, that we 18 had legislative authority to do that. Is that truly 19 legislative? Or is it in these sets of rules that are 20 fixing to come out of T.N.R.C.C.? And, again, I'm not a 21 great big fan of rules. I -- I think that we all need to be 22 living under legislation, and I know that these agencies 23 come out and create their own rules, and we have to live by 24 that. I still say that that is not right -- the right thing 25 -- way for us to do. 168 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, now, Commissioner, the 2 County government -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm saying -- let me 4 finish. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sorry. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm asking if -- do 7 you see it as -- as legislation, or do you see some new 8 rules coming down the pike that we're not going to be able 9 to do things like that. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think it's legislation, 11 because, you know the way County government operates. We 12 only have the specific powers that are granted to us by the 13 legislature or the Congress. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: The legislature gave us the 16 PGMA rules, which is the ability to impose water 17 availability requirements, because we live in a priority 18 groundwater management area. Then, the legislature, two 19 years later, turned around and gave everyone in the state 20 the ability to have water availability requirements as part 21 of the platting process under the regulations that they're 22 putting forward. Nowhere in either legislation does it say 23 that we can require a developer to put something on the plat 24 in lieu of those -- in lieu of satisfying any water 25 availability requirements. Now, that's my -- that's the way 169 1 I rationalize it, I reason into the fact we don't have the 2 authority for that. If we can find the authority for that, 3 then -- then, you know, that's a different ball of wax, 4 but -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We put language on the 6 plat that says that these roads shall remain -- these are 7 private roads. They shall remain private until such time as 8 the developer brings them up to County standards. Isn't 9 that the same thing? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, because I think there's 11 actually specific legislative authority for us to require 12 that we don't take a private road until it comes up to 13 standards. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I've never seen 15 that law that said that. I didn't -- wasn't aware of that. 16 Well, I kind of like what Larry's saying, because then that 17 gives -- I mean, it gives the land buyer the option, and it 18 doesn't put a burden on everyone else. I mean, if a land 19 buyer comes in here and -- and on this plat it says there 20 may or may not be water down there, he doesn't have to buy 21 it; he can go on. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. It would 23 impact the price, also, that's on there. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think eventually it would 25 put them at a competitive disadvantage, too. 170 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In fact, it's no 2 different than going out and buying 50 acres or 100 acres, 3 1,000 acres. You know, you buy it at your own risk. 4 MR. BEAUMONT: That's true. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's right. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- on the well 7 requirement and going from a science standpoint, a test well 8 is probably more beneficial than a well that's going to be 9 resold, because then we can monitor. I mean, could we have 10 you add an option on that if they have to drill two wells, 11 they can either drill one test well, which, by definition, 12 is a well that can never be produced and gets certain 13 monitoring of measure kept in it to keep levels, or they can 14 drill two productive wells or two wells that they could then 15 resell? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I think the requirement 17 is, you know, they have to give us results from two wells. 18 It can be either test wells or can be existing wells, so 19 long as they're geographically disparate. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean from a monitoring 21 standpoint; a monitoring well cannot be produced. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, they are. There's only 23 one well that the Headwaters monitors which is not a 24 producing well, or has the capability of being a producing 25 well, I believe. Tom, am I wrong on that? You're -- 171 1 MR. POLLARD: I don't know, Judge. I haven't 2 gotten there yet. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: But, my experience with the 4 Headwaters has been only the Donna Drive well, which is the 5 main monitoring well, but it's one of 11. That's the only 6 one that's not being produced. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- I was under the 8 impression there were more than that, and that from what -- 9 from just talking with the Water Development Board and John 10 Ashworth, the problem with your producing wells, then the 11 water levels go up and down; you really can't tell what 12 level your aquifer is, and a well that's not ever produced 13 is just sitting there with the monitoring information in it, 14 then you're getting a true picture for what the -- the water 15 level is, and you're eliminating the cone and depression 16 problems and other local problems from what happens when you 17 do produce a well, and -- 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah, I think that's a good 19 idea. But, you know, I'm not sure I want to explain to the 20 developers why we're going to require them to drill a well 21 and then not use it. You know, that's an expense that 22 they -- well, I guess they can pass it on. You can pass 23 everything on to your ultimate customer, but -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, a monitoring well, 25 though, is a cheaper well usually, because it's a smaller 172 1 diameter, I think. I mean, there's some financial incentive 2 for them. I'm not sure I'm not speaking a little bit -- 3 going beyond, certainly, what I know about drilling water 4 wells and monitoring wells, but it just -- one of the things 5 that I think is real important is for us to get more data, 6 and test wells that are left as test wells will help get 7 that into the future. And, maybe there can be some 8 discretion as to certain areas if we can, you know, get that 9 determined through the Region J process for -- from 10 Headwaters to where we really need some wells. Give the 11 developer that option in those areas, and maybe it could be, 12 you know, adjusted later. 'Cause if we don't have the 13 knowledge, I think, how to do that, but just a concept that 14 may be helpful. 15 MS. LAVENDER: Can I say something? I know that 16 they've added two more wells to the monitoring system for 17 the drought management -- drought contingency plan. There's 18 now three monitor wells that Headwaters has. I don't have 19 that with me, but I know there's three. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sounds like they may have 21 found two more nonproducing wells that people are willing to 22 let them use as monitoring wells. Because for the drought 23 contingency plan, you definitely want a nonproducing well as 24 your monitor well, but I'm talking about the wells that 25 they've been monitoring for seven or eight years; all but 173 1 one of those have been producing wells. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Besides the well out at 3 the Ag Barn is -- could be used for monitoring. It was 4 offered to them; they said they didn't need it, they had 5 enough. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did they not take 7 that over? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They didn't want to 9 monitor it, either. They never produced it, so it would 10 be -- anyway, different story. Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: At this point, can we 12 accept this and set the public hearing? Even though we're 13 going to -- or do we want to do another -- 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm not sure, because, you 15 know, we have to have a product for the public to review. 16 You know, we've talked about a couple of changes on the -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What was it, 18 acreage -- 50 acres? 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Going to go from 25 -- we're 20 going to go from 25 acres minimum lot size to be exempt down 21 to 15. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ten. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 12.35. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: And then there was also talk 25 about allowing wells in subdivisions that have community 174 1 systems for irrigation or agricultural purposes. And then 2 there was talk about an exception for -- for subdivisions of 3 five lots or fewer and minimum size of -- what did we say, 5 4 acres? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Five acres. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Those are the three friendly 7 amendments that I'd say the author is willing to accept at 8 this time. I'm not sure whether we need to rewrite and -- 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Could we -- 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Jonathan still has to do the 11 routing part of this. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's look at it again in 13 two weeks. That way we'll have a final product. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think that's appropriate. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do, too. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: We need to let people have 17 something to look at. So, it appears to be the consensus 18 that we'll make the changes and put this back on the agenda 19 for the March 27th meeting. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do we have an 21 attorney? 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have an attorney in the 23 room, but I think he's here on behalf of Headwaters today. 24 MR. POLLARD: No, I was -- I thought I was 25 supposed to be here at 1:30 for a Stoddard report, but I'm 175 1 just informed that he begged off and it's going to be two 2 weeks. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct. I'm sorry we 4 didn't notify you about that. 5 MR. POLLARD: That's all right. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Nice visiting with 7 you, though. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: He was unavailable to do it, 9 but he's agreed to make himself available in two weeks, so, 10 yes, on the agenda on the 27th will be a report from 11 Mr. Stoddard. 12 MR. POLLARD: 1:30? 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think we'll probably set it 14 for 1:30 so that those who need to be here can be. 15 MR. POLLARD: That's what I was here for 16 today. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sorry, Tom. I apologize. 18 MR. POLLARD: That's okay. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Send us a bill. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tom likes to hear about 21 water, anyway. 22 MR. POLLARD: Yeah, I do. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: I thought maybe you were here 24 for Headwaters since you were working the Headwaters side of 25 the fence. If there's no other business to come before this 176 1 Court, we stand adjourned. I didn't hear anything from 2 Leonard, so I will presume that they're not going to try to 3 get those bids evaluated in time for to us take them under 4 consideration at this meeting, so we'll have to take them up 5 at the next meeting. Thank you all. 6 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:23 p.m.) 7 - - - - - - - - - - 8 9 10 11 12 STATE OF TEXAS | 13 COUNTY OF KERR | 14 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 15 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 16 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 17 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 18 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 21st day of March, 19 2000. 20 21 22 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 23 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 24 Certified Shorthand Reporter 25