1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, April 10, 2000 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X 2 April 10, 2000 PAGE 3 --- Citizens' Comments 3 --- Commissioners' Comments 5 4 1.1 Pay Bills 11 5 1.2 Budget Amendments 16 1.3 Late Bills 18 6 1.4 Read and Approve Minutes 19 1.5 Read and Accept Monthly Reports 19 7 2.1 Burn Ban Status 20 8 2.2 Format for Burn Ban court orders 21 2.3 April 10, 2000, Joshua D. Brown Day 29 9 2.20 Necessity for public hearings for abandonment or changing names of public roads 33 10 2.4 Preliminary replat, Tracts 45 & 60, Cypress Park 36 11 2.5 Preliminary replat, Wren Road Estates 43 2.6 Extension of Mary Ruth Road for maintenance 47 12 2.7 Set fees for Sexually-Oriented Business order 54 2.8 Approve bond for Constable Precinct 2 60 13 2.9 Release security pledged at Security State Bank 61 2.10 Substitutions in Capital Outlay, Facilities Use 62 14 2.11 Set workshop for Law Enforcement radio system 63 2.12 Authorize Grantworks of Austin to prepare grant 65 15 2.13 Set public hearing, Grantworks grant application 66 2.14 Turtle Creek F.D. installation of dry hydrant 68 16 2.15 Procedure for adopting rules for County parks 70 2.16 Kerr County Subdivision Rules and Regulations 72 17 2.17 Budget amendment to move money from Purchasing Agent line item for county internet services 83 18 2.18 Court order to obtain county internet services 91 2.19 Approval of revised 911 Guidelines 92 19 2.21 Reappointments to Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Advisory Board 98 20 2.22 Adoption of budget schedule 100 2.23 Presentation on Open Meetings Act 101 21 --- Meeting adjourned 145 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, April 10, 2000, at 9:00 o'clock a.m., a 2 Regular Session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was 3 held in the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County 4 Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings 5 were had in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. It's 9 o'clock on 8 Monday, April 10th. We'll call to order this regular 9 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. 10 Commissioner Williams, I believe you're up this morning. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think so. Please 12 rise for a moment of prayer and to salute the flag. 13 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. At this time, if 15 there's any citizen who wishes to address the Court on an 16 item not listed on the regular agenda, they may come forward 17 and do so. Yes, sir? 18 MR. SIEMERS: Good morning. I'm Paul Siemers. 19 I live at HC-1, 156N in Hunt. I noticed the burn ban is on 20 the agenda, but I would like to address the drought in 21 general. Would you like me to do that now or defer it until 22 the burn ban? 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: If you have comments about 24 whether or not we should have a burn ban, you need to defer 25 those. If you want to talk about the situation in general, 4 1 this is the appropriate time. 2 MR. SIEMERS: Okay. I guess that's what I'd 3 like to do. I would like to address the fact that I believe 4 that the county is in a serious drought. You probably all 5 know that we haven't had about half the rain we normally get 6 over the last 15-month period. You have to pardon my voice; 7 I've been having trouble lately. The rivers are running at 8 a rate that is approximately what it was doing in the '96 9 drought, and the aquifer levels are very low, as you're 10 probably all aware of. The problem I see, other than the 11 fact that it is a serious drought, is that the population 12 and the government bodies seem to have their head in the 13 sand as to the fact that we are in a serious drought. There 14 seems to be very little response to the drought at the 15 governmental level. There is no -- no announcements that, 16 oh, we're in a drought and we should be doing something 17 about it by conserving water. 18 The people that I know, for the most part, that deal with 19 it on a day-to-day basis look at me and say, "There's water 20 in the river. How can we be in a drought?" And, that's the 21 real problem, that there's nobody taking the initiative to 22 get -- make the public aware that this is a serious problem. 23 Last year was the fourth lowest rainfall per -- per year 24 that we've had since 1931. The two lowest years were during 25 the drought of the '50's. We could be on the threshold or 5 1 somewhere in the middle of a drought of record. And, what 2 I'm asking the -- requesting respectfully of this Board this 3 morning -- the Court, is that if you -- if it's within your 4 authority to do so, I think it would be a very wise approach 5 to make a public announcement, acknowledgment at least, that 6 we are in a drought. Make the public aware, so that -- that 7 a year from now they can't say, "But nobody told us so." 8 And, at the same time you make this acknowledgment, make a 9 plea for conservation. 10 On the way in this morning, I observed two fields that I 11 haven't seen anything grow in or cattle graze in or anything 12 else being irrigated. I saw a parking lot at a drive-in 13 restaurant being hosed down. This is how the public's 14 reacting to the fact that we're in a drought, because they 15 don't know or they don't care. And, somehow they have -- 16 have to be made aware, and they have to be at least 17 encouraged not to waste water. Thank you. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Anyone else who'd 19 like to address the Court on an item not on the agenda this 20 morning? If not, we'll move directly into the 21 Commissioners' comments. Let's starts with Commissioner 22 Williams. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to thank the 24 gentleman for his comments about the drought. There 25 certainly -- there certainly needs to be some effort put 6 1 by -- put forward by somebody to keep the -- keep the public 2 more acutely aware. There are efforts underfoot, however, 3 as you probably know, to address the situation, and I think 4 maybe part of the bad commentary or sad commentary is that 5 when the Headwaters Underground Conservation District met to 6 discuss a drought contingency plan, 10 people show up. And 7 if you were there, you were one of the 10, perhaps. 8 MR. SIEMERS: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And, so, there is not 10 the awareness of the seriousness of the situation that -- 11 that it really deserved, and that's probably because we see 12 that pretty river flowing and we think that everything's 13 just hunky-dory, but it's really not. So, I appreciate your 14 comments, and I think the -- if anything, if the press and 15 this court and others who have the opportunity or the pulpit 16 to do that just keep pounding on the people about water 17 conservation matters, the better the situation is, and thank 18 you for coming this morning. 19 MR. SIEMERS: Thank you. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Letz? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I pretty much share the 22 sentiments of Commissioner Williams on this, and, you know, 23 I think that one of the things that this court probably 24 could work towards is more cooperation with the City and 25 Headwaters and U.G.R.A. I mean, we're all the governmental 7 1 entities that deal with water, and there tends to be more -- 2 probably more conflict than agreement, at least in the 3 press. And, some -- maybe some efforts can be made in that 4 area. No other comments. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Commissioner Griffin? 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I certainly support 7 keeping the drought condition in front of the public. I 8 think we in -- in the public side of this, governmental 9 side, tend -- since we work with it every day, believe me, 10 we hear something about water. There's some water issue, 11 even if it's just the burn ban, but there's some water issue 12 that we address every day, and I see an awful lot of 13 articles in the local newspapers about it also, and the 14 Region J work that's going on. But, it wouldn't hurt to -- 15 every time we can, to -- to publicize it even more, because 16 there's a lot of citizens that don't get the word. 17 Let me also say, quickly, congratulations; this was a 18 good past couple weeks here for Ingram Tom Moore High 19 School. Congratulations to both boys' and girls' varsity 20 tennis teams for their third great district championships. 21 The One-Act Play troupe proceeded on to area competition 22 from district competition, and boys' varsity golf team won 23 their second straight district title. So, very good. I 24 also want to announce that the Purchasing Agent workshop 25 scheduled for 2 p.m. on the 24th of April is on. There will 8 1 be representatives of the County Purchasing Agents 2 Association of Texas here to help us with some of that. And 3 lastly, again, sort of internal to the courthouse, I 4 think -- and to the County government, I think everybody 5 ought to take a look at the latest County Magazine, where 6 the Texas Association of Counties feels that the counties in 7 the state of Texas should be heading for both internet and 8 e-mail kind of services to the public. I think in some 9 cases we're ahead and in some cases we're behind, and I'm 10 not sure we want -- they are going to try some statewide 11 efforts. I don't think we want to wait for that. Anything 12 that they do would fit what we're doing already. I think 13 we'll keep pressing on, but there's some excellent 14 information on -- on what some of the Association people see 15 as the future of the internet as it affects county 16 government. Thank you. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Commissioner Baldwin? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, I have two 19 important pieces of news. I was just on the phone with the 20 Humane Society, and they have received a grant of $400,000, 21 and they -- we will soon see the Humane Society grow and be 22 the -- the organization that they've always desired to be. 23 And, the reason I'm talking about it is because it is -- 24 it's a huge benefit to our county and our animal program, et 25 cetera, and we will have the Humane Society folks in 9 1 Commissioners Court at a later date to give a more in-depth 2 report of what's going on with it. 3 Also, for all you Steve and Harley fans, Steve and 4 Harley cranked back up in Kerrville this morning on Channel 5 51. You can't -- you don't see them, but you can turn them 6 on and listen to them, and it was a thrill for my family 7 that are committed, dedicated Steve and Harley fans. Just a 8 commercial there. Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: May I add a comment 10 to what Commissioner Baldwin said about that, about Steve 11 and Harley? There on Channel 51, Channel 51 is the only 12 local access channel we have in this area -- well, aside 13 from the one that Tivy operates, but truly on a commercial 14 basis, local access. And, yet, they have been pulled off of 15 tier -- basic tier by the cable company, and you have to 16 have the extended service in order to get them. And, I 17 think, you know, maybe some folks maybe ought to tell the 18 cable company we'd like to have them back on basic so more 19 people can see it. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. It's an 21 education. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: We could all use more of 23 that. Real quickly, I'd call everyone's attention to the 24 meetings that would be held on Wednesday and Thursday of 25 this week with our consultant on the classification 10 1 compensation study. I think you all have a schedule of 2 those. They start at 9 o'clock. 3 MS. NEMEC: 9:15. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: 9:15 Wednesday morning, with 5 a meeting of the department heads and elected officials, and 6 then there are meetings scheduled for the rest of Wednesday 7 and Thursday, both here in the courthouse and at the Law 8 Enforcement Center and the Road and Bridge Department. 9 Everyone needs to attend one of these orientation meetings 10 so they can participate in the classification compensation 11 study. I think I can speak for our Treasurer, Barbara 12 Nemec, by saying we're very pleased with the attitude of our 13 consultants so far, their willingness to jump in and get 14 this done and devote the time necessary to have everyone 15 participate in what is a very important process for the 16 long-term future of County government here in Kerrville. 17 So, everyone's encouraged to participate in those and to 18 make time for their -- their respective employees, the 19 people in their departments, to attend one of the 20 orientation workshop sessions. So, I'm glad to see that 21 that's underway. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question, 23 probably for Barbara. If you can't attend the one 24 for elected officials, are they all going to be pretty much 25 the same? 11 1 MS. NEMEC: No, they will all be the same. 2 It was the Judge's idea, and he just kind of wanted the 3 elected officials and department heads to know firsthand, 4 first, before their employees, on how the process is going 5 to go. And that way, when their employees come in, if they 6 have questions when they get back to the office, their 7 elected official or department head will know. But, if you 8 can't attend the 9:15, certainly you're able to attend any 9 other one. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. All right. Let's move 12 into the approval agenda. We have bills to pay. 13 Mr. Auditor. Does anyone have any questions about any of 14 the bills? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do, I do, I do. On 16 Page 1, the Commissioners Court, the Denton, McKamie, 17 Navarro -- the Robby Don Cornelius case, I guess, is what it 18 is. Now, that -- didn't a federal judge -- let's see, is 19 the word "depose"? Lay down, throw in the trash can? 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Dismiss. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Dismiss that, and -- 22 is this the final bill, or is something still ongoing with 23 it? Or -- 24 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't -- I don't know if 25 there's -- if this is the final bill or not. 12 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was dismissed, 2 like, two months ago, month and a half ago or something like 3 that. I guess maybe this is just bills that are just 4 filtering in, maybe? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: The -- the invoice date shows 6 it was 3/29, so if there's pending -- been any activity 7 since then, then there'd be another bill. If it was 8 dismissed at about that time, then there should be no bills. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Page 2, 216th District 10 Court, the 5th from the bottom, Tamera Kneuper. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: That's the District Clerk in 12 Bandera County. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I see. Okay. All 14 right, very good. That answers my question, unless y'all 15 want to look into it further. That had to do with the Lich 16 trial thing -- Lich murder, I mean? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Hernandez, yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Page 4, the County 19 Treasurer. The first one, let's see. College Station 20 Hilton. And then about three-quarters of the way down, you 21 have College Station Hilton. Is that -- 22 MR. TOMLINSON: One's for lodging and -- 23 well, there's -- it's for two people. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The first one says 25 lodging for Barbara and Ada, and the second one says lodging 13 1 for Barbara and Ada. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: I have to look -- well, 3 they're the same bills; we took them from different places. 4 See, one -- the total bill is for $264.42. Part of it is 5 from Employee Training and the other one is from 6 Conferences. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. I see. Good, 8 all right. And then -- and then I guess the same thing with 9 the registration? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: That would be correct. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, good. On Page 12 5, Kerr County Jail, the Jail Inmates Trust Fund. And I 13 think I know the answer to it, but I'm a little bit cloudy. 14 And, of course, our K-1, our new Sheriff is here. But, is 15 the trust fund -- is that the fund where -- 16 MR. TOMLINSON: It's the commissary fund. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The commissary fund. 18 That is the inmates' personal money? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Not all of it is. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not all of it? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: It's personal as long as 22 they're there. If they purchase goods and there's a profit, 23 the profit goes into the trust fund. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, that's right. I 25 forgot about the profit part. Excellent. And we can take 14 1 that profit, excess monies, and spend it? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: We can use it for inmate 3 purposes, and often we -- they pay for things and the County 4 reimburses that fund if it's not for them -- that purpose. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Page 6, Sheriff's 6 Department, down about halfway down, the long distance 7 telephone services. There's two Intermedia and then there's 8 a Correctional Billing Service, the first time I've ever 9 seen that. First thing that popped in my mind was that 10 it -- it was our -- our telephone service that inmates can 11 use to make local calls. You can't make long distance calls 12 on those, can you? 13 MR. TOMLINSON: No. I have to look at that 14 one; I'm not for sure what number it is. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just never heard of 16 Correctional Billing Services or any other, outside the 17 Intermedia. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: I'll have to look at that 19 one. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Page 7, at the 21 bottom, the -- the purchase of the 45 horse stalls, $9,000. 22 I just I don't see how this works. Now, this is grant 23 money. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Correct. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Grant money that's 15 1 actually purchasing -- 2 MR. TOMLINSON: And that's what it's out of. 3 We set up a line item for that purpose. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 205? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is the actual grant? 7 Super-duper. And, so, we're -- who are we paying that to? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The instructions of 9 the grant were that the proceeds had to go to Hill Country 10 Junior District Livestock Show Association. That's where it 11 went, per the grant instructions. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It goes to them. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To the Association. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Y'all are just 16 a wealth of information today. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's early, too. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all I had. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone else? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have none. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move we pay the bills. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved and seconded that we 24 pay the bills as recommended by the Auditor. I have a 25 couple of questions, if we could, first. Under 16 1 Nondepartmental, 409, the taxes and surcharges on Intermedia 2 Communications. Why do we have a separate bill for taxes 3 and surcharges? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm not positive of that. 5 I'll have to look at that one. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. And on clear report 7 covers, who -- for whom was that purchased? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: That was -- I'm not sure, but 9 I think it's for -- for the reports that -- that we get 10 monthly. They're the binder covers that cover the financial 11 reports monthly. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Oh, okay. All right, okay. 13 I'd be curious about that taxes and surcharges. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: I'll look at -- look that one 15 up. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion's been made and 17 seconded that we pay the bills as recommended by the 18 Auditor, with a couple of ones that he's going to report 19 back to us on. Any further discussion? If not, all in 20 favor, raise your right hand. 21 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Do we have 25 any budget amendments? 17 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Actually, there's two -- no, 2 I have one that we're going to cover at this time. It's for 3 the 216th District Court. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: We have a need to transfer 6 $12,600 from Court-Appointed Attorneys and $1,190 from Court 7 Transcripts to Special Trials. This is also for this 8 Hernandez trial in Bandera. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 12 seconded by Commissioner Williams, that the Court approve 13 Budget Amendment Request Number 2, relating to the 216th 14 District Court. Any further discussion? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: I do need a hand check for 16 these. One -- the $1,190 is to Cindy Snider for the 17 transcript, and one for $12,600 for J. Garcia, Attorney at 18 Law. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. The motion is that we 20 approve the budget amendment and hand checks in the those 21 amounts? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further discussion? If 24 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 25 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 18 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Judge, if you would 4 like to go ahead and call Item 17, we could go ahead and -- 5 'cause that's actually the first part of Item 17, is the 6 other budget amendment that we have. If you would like to 7 do that. Makes no difference to me. We can wait for Item 8 17, if you like. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Why don't we wait? 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll hold off on Budget 12 Amendment Request Number 2 until we take up Item 17. 13 Anything else? Any late bills? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: I have one late bill from 15 Keith Longnecker for $1,364.80. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 19 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve a late 20 bill payable to Keith Longnecker in the amount of $1,364.80. 21 Any further discussion? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Normal services. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: If not, all in favor, raise 24 your right hand. 25 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 19 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you. 4 At this time, I'd entertain a motion to waive reading and 5 approve the minutes of the regular session held on Monday, 6 March 13th, Special Session held on Monday, March 27th, and 7 the Special Session held on Friday, March 31st. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 11 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we waive 12 reading and approve the minutes of the March 13th, March 13 27th, and March 31st meetings. Any further discussion? If 14 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 15 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item of business is to 19 approve and accept monthly reports. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 23 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve and accept 24 the monthly reports as presented. Any further discussion? 25 If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 20 1 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. First item 5 of business is Item Number 1, which is to consider and 6 discuss the status of the burn ban. I placed this on the 7 agenda simply so we'd have an opportunity to make revisions 8 to the burn ban if anyone feels so inclined. Does anyone 9 here want to make a revision to the current burn ban? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my only comment 11 on the burn ban right now is I'm not -- you know, no real 12 heartburn over it. I'm not sure we should have a burn 13 ban -- I mean, the -- the whatever it is, 90-day burn ban in 14 effect. I mean, to me, we're in reasonably good shape from 15 a burning standpoint, and if we're going to have a dry 16 summer, which it looks like we will, I'd rather have all the 17 burning done that's possible right now, while it's 18 relatively green. Just something to toss out for -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Letz, 20 there's a fire truck pulling into the courthouse out here. 21 (Laughter.) 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm serious. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is our lawn on fire? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's just a comment. 25 We can, you know, continue the way we're doing it, but it's 21 1 just a -- 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: With the flexibility the 3 court has put into the burn ban, you can take advantage of 4 those temporary situations. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's correct. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Hearing no interest in 7 revising the status of the burn ban, we'll move on to Item 8 Number 2, Commissioner Griffin, which is to consider and 9 discuss formats for court orders, letters from Commissioners 10 suspending the burn ban, and interim procedures for 11 implementing a burn ban suspension. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. I just wanted to 13 quickly review where we are with the new flexibility of the 14 system and all, make sure that all the Commissioners are 15 aware of how this needs to work in the interim period, until 16 we have an all-up, finished approach to this, which will 17 probably still be several months away. Depends a lot on 18 the -- our communications systems and all, but -- but I 19 think this will work very well. When a Commissioner wants 20 to suspend the burn ban, there are two people that need to 21 find out about it currently. One is T. Sandlin at 911, and 22 the other is me. The reason I have to find out is because 23 I'm updating our web page information myself, and it takes 24 very few seconds to do that. I can do it, but I need to 25 know that you suspended a burn ban and when it will expire. 22 1 You can fax me a copy of the letter. You can give me a 2 call, leave it on my voice mail, whatever, but I need to get 3 the word on that. T. Sandlin needs to find out so he can -- 4 and this is even more -- much more important -- so that he 5 can update the burn ban hotline. Eventually, we'll have a 6 procedure where that will go directly to the 911 PSAP 7 that -- that action center, so that all of that will be done 8 there. But, right now, he's having to update that 9 recording. So, when you do lift the ban, just make sure -- 10 or suspend the ban, just make sure that that information 11 gets to T. and gets to me. That's number one. We'll have 12 all of this reflected in our order formats. It's very 13 straightforward, very little change to what we had before, 14 but I just wanted to run through that quickly so that 15 everybody understands the process. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question, 17 though. Are we doing -- this is coming from four different 18 corners of the county. Are we doing this through, for 19 example, the Administrative Assistant in court, or is each 20 Commissioner responsible for doing it himself, or what? 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would say that's 22 primarily up to the Commissioner. But, it depends on how 23 you get your letter written, et cetera. I happen to do my 24 own, so it's just as easy for me -- and I pick up the phone 25 right then and call T. Sandlin. But, it -- it's good 23 1 because Thea needs to get those anyway. She needs to get a 2 copy of it for sure, because that's for our record here. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And for newspapers 4 and other -- 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's right. And she 6 sends that out immediately to the normal people that -- she 7 also sends out to some of the abnormal ones. She sends it 8 out, but she sends it out to all of the people she normally 9 sends that to, so she needs to get a copy for sure. What 10 I'm talking about with -- with me and with T. Sandlin is, 11 that can be a phone call, but there's no requirement that we 12 get it. She needs to get a carbon copy of the letter, and 13 she -- you can fax that in to her. You can e-mail it to her 14 if you have that capability or whatever. So, she needs to 15 get it immediately, and then pick up the phone and call me 16 and make sure. If you call me, I'll make -- I'll 17 double-check to make sure that T. Sandlin gets it. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know if 19 anybody else is having any of the same problems; 20 Commissioner Letz may have experienced some of the same 21 things that I have, I'm not sure. But, when I check with 22 those who I should be checking with to determine whether or 23 not it makes any sense to suspend the burn ban, in addition 24 to looking at the longer -- long-range weather forecast, I 25 have discovered recently that fire chiefs are not always on 24 1 the same page, if you have multiple fire chiefs, and some of 2 them might even have a latent desire not to have to fight a 3 fire, which is -- biases the response you get as to whether 4 or not you should suspend the burn ban. All right? Which 5 leaves the Commissioner right caught between the burn ban 6 and the hard wall sometimes. I'm not sure how we deal with 7 that. But -- 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I've had just the 9 opposite experience, but I can certainly understand how 10 the -- what you're -- I have found that the fire chiefs in 11 Precinct 4 are much more interested in suspending the ban 12 when burning is possible, for the same reason that Jonathan 13 talks often about; we need to get the burn piles burned down 14 when we can, when it's safe, so that we don't have somebody 15 out there pushing the edge of the -- of the law or -- or 16 anything else in burning when they shouldn't. So, I've had 17 just the opposite experience. However, that's ultimately 18 the Commissioner's call. And, if you've got four fire 19 chiefs and it's two-to-two, that's sort of your call. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or one-to-one. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Or one-to-one. And 22 I've done some convincing on a couple of occasions, myself; 23 I've tried to convince them of that, and I think we could go 24 at least 24 hours or at least 48 hours, take a look at it 25 tomorrow. And -- and most of the time, you know, they'll -- 25 1 they've gone along. Most of the time when it's been right 2 to burn, I've had unanimity every time. They say yeah, 3 let's lift it, get these piles down. So, that's probably 4 one of those things where you may have to work closely with 5 your -- get them on the same page that you are. That is, 6 when we can burn, we need to burn. It's not a thing that's 7 just nice to do; it's something that lowers the risk, it 8 doesn't raise it. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I've had that -- 10 I guess, the same experience to a degree, but I kind of view 11 it that the majority of my precinct's in Comfort, and 12 Comfort's more inclined to burn; I tend to lift it. But, 13 there are -- the fire departments in Elm Pass and Center 14 Point are much less inclined, it's been any experience, to 15 release the burn ban. But, when it's raining outside, I 16 mean, I'm going to lift it, whether they think it's a good 17 idea or not sometimes. But -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We wanted this 19 responsibility; now we got it. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I generally -- you know, 21 I think that we consult with them, then we make a decision. 22 That's way I interpret it. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm, that's exactly 24 right. It's your call. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, sir? 26 1 MR. CABANISS: I got a question. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Come forward and identify 3 yourself, please. 4 MR. CABANISS: Donald Cabaniss. I'm in 5 Precinct 1. I've got an example. Say Mr. Baldwin goes out 6 of town for a weekend or whatever, and it starts raining on 7 a Friday, like it did last week. And it rains Friday, 8 Saturday, and the ban wasn't lifted until Sunday. I've 9 wasted two days without burning. Who's responsible for 10 lifting his ban -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nobody. 12 MR. CABANISS: -- if he's out of town? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nobody. 14 MR. CABANISS: Then we don't burn? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's correct. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, Sheriff? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Only comment I would 18 have, Judge, is please -- you know, I know Commissioner 19 Griffin was saying about notification; just make sure 20 that -- I guess it would be Thea faxing us a copy out at the 21 Sheriff's Office so we can get it to the deputies as soon as 22 possible. And then the only other thing I may need some 23 assistance with is I've been looking out there, since my 24 taking office a week ago, and I have not found a very good 25 detailed map to where all the patrol deputies will know 27 1 exactly which precinct they're in. You know, I mean, when 2 an officer's actually out there on patrol, I don't want him 3 citing somebody for burning when Precinct 3 says you can't, 4 but maybe he's in 2. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me address both of 6 your concerns, Rusty. You should -- you should get an 7 all-channels, all-officers call from 911 as soon as they get 8 notified of the suspension. If -- if you're not, then I'll 9 talk to T. Sandlin about it, but you should get that as soon 10 as -- by precinct. Also, from 911, we can get you some very 11 detailed -- in fact, more detailed than you probably want -- 12 maps on precinct boundaries. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We need to -- you know, 14 that's the only concerns that I have. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's not to a great -- 16 it's not to enough scale for your deputies to be able to 17 use, but there is one online that's off of the -- that's at 18 least an idea of where you are. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I've looked at that one, 20 but -- 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But there is another 22 one -- there is another one we can get you from 911 where 23 you can keep zooming, and you can get down to street 24 corners, and with precinct boundaries shown. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. One thing -- and 28 1 I don't know if T. has this capability. Back before, they 2 had a computer at the Sheriff's office, 911, which had a 3 screen that pulled up the maps, which was even -- you know, 4 better in not just the burn ban situation; that helped the 5 dispatchers find roads, because it had them all listed. For 6 some reason, I have no idea, but that computer is not out 7 there any more at the Sheriff's office. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We'll get you all of 9 that. You should have -- you should have copies of all of 10 those, and he's got some excellent ones. They're by voter 11 precinct, they're by precinct-precinct, they're by anything 12 you can imagine, and they're broken down in every different 13 way. You should have copies of all of those. We'll see 14 that you get them. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I appreciate that. 16 Thank you. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'd like to say at this time 18 that I am pleased with the graphic that the Kerrville Daily 19 Times has regarding the burn ban. Not only does it say 20 whether or not the burn ban is or is not in effect, but it 21 has a graphic where it shows each precinct and what the 22 status is that day, which I think is extremely useful for 23 people who are looking for status of a burn ban. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that -- I saw it one 25 time there, but I didn't notice it. Is it on one -- like, 29 1 on the weather page? 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 3 MS. LAVENDER: Always on the weather page. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Anything further 6 on that item? If not, we'll move on to Item Number 3, which 7 is consider and discuss resolution declaring today, 8 April 10th, Year 2000, to be Joshua David Brown Day. Clara 9 Belle Snodgrass, do you want do address us on this? 10 MS. SNODGRASS: I'm just real happy that this 11 will be done today. I wish I'd had a little more time; I 12 would have had some balloons printed and had "Joshua Brown 13 Day" and had them all over the place, but I didn't have 14 enough help to do that. But, I know the family is going to 15 appreciate this being done, because I've talked with one or 16 two of them. We expect to have 14 or 16 people, relatives, 17 in town for this. They're coming from Sonora, San Antonio, 18 Austin, Boerne, Hunt, and Kerrville, of course. So, I know 19 they'll be real proud. We're having some little great- 20 great-great-grandchildren that will unveil the marker. We 21 like to involve the children in these kind of things, so we 22 teach them a little history along the way. And, I've had 23 some nice response and compliments because we're doing this. 24 And -- and I've told them that the Court was going to do 25 this, and I'm proud of all of you for going along with it, 30 1 because I do think it's something that we should have 2 honored, and I think we're long overdue doing it. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, today at 2 o'clock, 4 you're going to be dedicating a marker at Joshua David 5 Brown's grave; is that correct? And that's at the 6 Brown-Goff cemetery? 7 MS. SNODGRASS: Right. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Out on Spur 100. 9 MS. SNODGRASS: Mm-hmm. And I hope some of 10 you can come. I know Buster's supposed to be there, 'cause 11 I gave him a job. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll be there, Clara 13 Belle. 14 MS. SNODGRASS: All right. I'll talk to you 15 out there. All right, thank you very much. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Ms. Snodgrass. At 17 this time, I'm going to read the resolution, and then we'll 18 entertain a motion to adopt. Whereas, Joshua D. Brown 19 emigrated from Madison County, Kentucky, to Texas in 1837; 20 and Whereas Joshua D. Brown served in the 1839 Cherokee 21 Expedition, the Wolf/Sommerville Campaign, and the Battle of 22 Salado Creek in 1842, and in Colonel Ben McCullough's Spy 23 Company in 1846; and Whereas Joshua D. Brown became a close 24 friend of Major James Kerr, former Kentuckian, soldier, 25 statesman, surveyor, and official of Green DeWitt's Colony; 31 1 and Whereas Joshua D. Brown, in 1846, rode horseback towards 2 the headwaters of the Guadalupe River in search of cypress 3 trees, finding a suitable place for a campground at what is 4 now the 900 block of Water Street in Kerrville; and Whereas 5 he began one of the first shingle camps, thus beginning a 6 new industry with good markets in Gonzales and San Antonio; 7 and Whereas he chose the name "Kerrville" for the site of 8 the shingle camp to honor his friend, James Kerr; and 9 Whereas the first session of the Kerr County Commissioners 10 Court, in May 1856, accepted Joshua D. Brown's proposition, 11 quote, "to locate the county site of Kerr County on Survey 12 116 owned by said Brown, and that said Brown shall make a 13 good and satisfactory warranty deed to said county to at 14 least four acres of land for a public square... on good, 15 choice lots fronting on the public square for County use, 16 one lot for public church, one lot for public school, and 17 one lot suitable for a jail... Now, therefore, be it 18 resolved that Monday, April 10th, Year 2000, is hereby 19 officially declared as Joshua Brown Day to honor the first 20 entrepreneur and businessman of Kerr County. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 24 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that we adopt the 25 resolution to declare April 10th, Year 2000, to be Joshua 32 1 Brown Day. Any further discussion? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Looks like a typo -- 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further discussion? If 5 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 6 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. And we have 10 six copies of the resolution, and they will be given, I 11 understand, to the great-grandchildren of Joshua Brown. 12 MS. SNODGRASS: Yes, sir. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Jack Auld, Jr., from Hunt, 14 J.M. Auld, Jr., from Hunt, Mary Jane Auld from San Marcos, 15 Mary Louise Auld Lehman from Kerrville, Doris Brown Flores 16 from Sonora, and Mary D. Brown Leverman from San Antonio. 17 MS. SNODGRASS: Right. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: And, we'll give these to you 19 to deliver to those descendants. 20 MS. SNODGRASS: Thank you so very much. 21 Appreciate it. 22 (Discussion off the record.) 23 MS. SNODGRASS: Thank you. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: You're welcome. Thank you. 25 MS. SNODGRASS: Are you going to be able to 33 1 be there? 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'll do my best. 3 MS. SNODGRASS: Good. We'll see you there. 4 Thank you very much, gentlemen. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, before we get to 7 2.4, I think it might be helpful to go to 2.20 first. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Which one? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2.20. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: 2.20. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Regarding public hearings 12 and abandoning and name changes and that, because this is an 13 abandonment issue, 2.4. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Without objection, 15 we'll go to 2.20, which is to consider and discuss the 16 necessity for public hearings when abandoning or changing 17 the names of private, restricted roads, both inside and/or 18 outside of subdivisions. Commissioner Griffin. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. I put this on 20 because we discovered over the last couple weeks that there 21 may be a -- a difference, and perhaps -- between our 22 Subdivision Rules and Regs and what the statute says there 23 is required in the nature of public hearings for these kind 24 of actions. And, so, I thought it would be good to get the 25 questions out on the table. I -- we could not find -- and 34 1 we did read through everything we could find -- that outside 2 of a subdivision, it appears that there's no question that a 3 public hearing is not required for an abandonment. We can't 4 find any requirement for it, at least. Subdivisions, we're 5 not quite as sure of at this point, because I couldn't find 6 any -- I couldn't find anything in the statutes that says 7 you have to have a public hearing. There are some processes 8 that you have to go through, but I couldn't find that you've 9 got to have a public hearing, and that's the question. If 10 we don't need public hearings, either inside or outside, 11 then we -- I don't think we should require it. And, it just 12 simplifies our process. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Any kind of 14 notification? 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh, yeah. No, there's 16 still -- there's still -- you have to have -- for an 17 abandonment, you have to be petitioned by the landowners, I 18 think it is. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 75 percent, and 21 there's all kind of things. It's just the question about 22 whether you then have to call a public hearing on the same 23 issue, and that's -- that's the question that I raised. 24 Because we could not find any outside of the subdivision, 25 for sure. We couldn't find any reference in the statute 35 1 that says you have to have a public hearing. You just have 2 to have the petition -- Court act on it, yes or no. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: County Attorney have 4 any thoughts on it? 5 MS. BAILEY: No. I received a request from 6 Franklin Johnston on that very issue, citing a very old 7 case. I've been trying to update that case and see if 8 there's any new statutory or case law that would address it, 9 and I have not -- have not found anything in my review. 10 But, as I say, I just got it on Friday, so I haven't really 11 made a comprehensive review. If you'd like to defer the 12 question maybe until the next meeting, I'll try to see if I 13 can get some definitive answer. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, certainly can 15 from my point of view. But what about the 2.4 issue? Does 16 that need to be resolved today? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I'm not -- well, I 18 think we can -- we can go either way on that. We can do the 19 public hearing -- it's not going to hurt anything -- if we 20 need to. But, just looking at the -- I thought the language 21 we took -- and Franklin, you might correct me if I'm wrong. 22 The language we put in this new subdivision draft is out of 23 Section 232. And, I looked through it. It says 24 Commissioners Court shall do a public notice -- oh, I see, 25 no hearing is required; you're saying public notice. 36 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 2 MS. BAILEY: I'm confident that you have to 3 notify the other -- the other parties. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh, yeah, no doubt. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we want to, then, defer 6 2.20 for a couple of weeks? Get guidance from the County 7 Attorney's office? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Now, do you want to take up 10 2.4, Jonathan? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. We'll now call 13 Item Number 2.4, which is consider and discuss a preliminary 14 replat of Tract 45 and Tract 60 of Cypress Park Section 1, 15 consider setting public hearing for same. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll turn it over to 17 Franklin. 18 MR. JOHNSTON: This morning I got this 19 analysis from U.G.R.A. on that subdivision. They had some 20 questions about lot sizes and that type of thing. When I 21 was looking at my plat -- I guess it's the same as yours -- 22 the 45 -- they're both listed as 45A. I assume that's a 23 typo, prior to the A and the B. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There are -- 25 MR. JOHNSTON: On the as-platted, they had 37 1 that Lot 25 excluded. Then, apparently, it's included on 2 the replat. I wasn't sure what they were doing there, 3 but -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me make a comment on 5 here as to -- there's two issues here. One, we're going to 6 abandon -- the public hearing portion is abandoning Pecan 7 Drive, which is a road that has never been made. 8 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it was on the plat. 10 That's the public hearing issue. The second issue is the 11 reason for that abandonment, part of the reason, is to do a 12 -- subdividing these lots as configured here. The problem 13 with this subdivision is, this is an old subdivision, when 14 they had one-acre lot size and public well, and there's 15 septic. There's development on there, and they're kind of 16 making a bad situation better, but it certainly doesn't meet 17 our current rules. And, this is -- that's kind of, I guess, 18 in a nutshell, where we are on it. I mean, it's -- 19 MR. JOHNSTON: I think some of those old lots 20 are even smaller than an acre. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 22 MR. JOHNSTON: As far as Pecan Drive, on the 23 revised part, they still have part of it listed, correct? 24 In that area? Shouldn't that totally be taken off? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it should be 38 1 taken off totally from the preliminary. 2 MR. JOHNSTON: These roads are private, 3 private roads. And, this -- this is just a right-of-way, 4 not a road. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, let's do -- 6 MR. JOHNSTON: That's all I had, other than 7 the -- what U.G.R.A. had on there. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's do the -- I mean, 9 if we can do -- the issue is setting a public hearing for 10 abandonment of Pecan Drive. That's the one we have all but 11 one of the owners in the subdivision have agreed to that in 12 a letter. And the one that hasn't, they have a -- someone 13 signed for other than the person that it was sent to, and 14 they can't find the person who actually owns the tract, but 15 it was signed for. But, every other owner has signed that. 16 So, I make a motion to set a public hearing for abandonment 17 on the 24th -- I don't believe we need 30 days, do we? -- on 18 the 24th of April, a public hearing for abandonment of Pecan 19 Drive in Cypress Park Subdivision, I believe it's called -- 20 yeah. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: At what time? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10 o'clock? 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We've already got 24 something for 10:00. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10:30? 39 1 MS. SOVIL: 10:00 and 10:30 both on the 24th, 2 from the last meeting. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: I guess it will be -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 11:00? I mean, let's say 5 11:00. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 9 second by Commissioner Baldwin, that we set a public hearing 10 on the abandonment of Pecan Drive for Monday, April 24th, 11 Year 2000, at 11 o'clock. Any further discussion? If not, 12 all in favor, raise your right hand. 13 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now, the other issue, I 18 have not looked at this -- I mean, I just now received, like 19 everybody else, U.G.R.A.'s comments. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'd like to just try 21 to -- an opinion, for what's it's worth on this. As a 22 matter of policy, I think any time we can get closer to -- 23 in working with these older subdivisions that are 24 grandfathered, I think any time we can get closer to our 25 current requirements, the better off we are. And that we 40 1 ought to look toward finding a way to approve these kind 2 of -- these kind of things, because it does make it better. 3 It doesn't get it all the way up to -- but, otherwise, it 4 stays like it is, which is worse. So -- so, why not make it 5 better? As good as we can, as long as the landowners are 6 trying to do that. 7 MR. JOHNSTON: These new lots are three or 8 four lots combined; it has to be better. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It is better. It's just 11 obviously -- you know, from a preliminary standpoint, I have 12 no problem with approving the preliminary, subject to 13 working out these -- you know, some of these difficulties 14 with U.G.R.A., but I'm trying to -- going through -- there's 15 lots of notes. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't see 45-B. I 17 see two 45-A. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- yeah, I think 19 that's a typo, I think, like Franklin said. One of them 20 should be 45-B, and I'm not sure which one it is, and I 21 don't see Mr. Domingues. 22 MR. JOHNSTON: 60-C, I don't see anything we 23 can do with that. That's an existing lot, and it's kind of 24 surrounded, so -- their objection is mostly insufficient 25 size and setbacks. 41 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Maybe we need to 2 discuss this with them, with U.G.R.A. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What the real purpose 6 of this is, and if it makes it better than leaving it like 7 it is, then we ought to be prone to do that. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: If we approve the -- not just 9 the preliminary, but the final plat in this configuration, 10 the lots still aren't big enough for individual wells and 11 septics. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but they're -- I 13 mean, there are individual wells and septics there right now 14 on smaller tracts. I mean, they're combined; they're making 15 them better by making them bigger, even though they're still 16 far from meeting our requirements -- not far. They're -- I 17 mean, they do have one that's up to 2.75 acres. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What would be the 19 purpose of 60-C? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- the red shed, 21 that building on Highway 27. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's the -- I'm not sure 24 how they got the ownership the way it is right now, but 25 they're trying to -- 42 1 MR. JOHNSTON: I think there was a lawsuit 2 involved. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There was a lawsuit. 4 MR. JOHNSTON: It was settled in this 5 configuration. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, kind of protects 7 that threat. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I mean, it's like 9 Larry says; I fully agree, this is not a great situation, 10 but it's probably a little bit better than it is. And, at 11 this point, I'd recommend we go with -- I'll make a motion 12 that we approve preliminary plat approval, subject -- but 13 let Mr. Domingues and the owner know they're going to have 14 to, one, get their plat correct, and two -- 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And make peace with 16 U.G.R.A. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, work with U.G.R.A. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 20 seconded by Commissioner Williams, that the Court grant 21 preliminary plat approval for Tract 45 and Tract 60 of 22 Cypress Park, Section 1, subject to them correcting the 23 replat and to negotiating with U.G.R.A. regarding the 24 deficiencies noted in their preliminary plat review. Any 25 further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right 43 1 hand. 2 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item is 6 Item Number 5, consider and discuss the preliminary plat of 7 Wren Road Estates, Precinct Number 4. Commissioner Griffin. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mr. Johnston? 9 MR. JOHNSTON: This is a subdivision 10 subdividing a lot that's -- whatever size, 15-plus acres, 11 into three lots. It's in the E.T.J. of the City of 12 Kerrville. I think it goes to the Planning and Zoning next 13 meeting this week -- I think it's this week. It's three 14 5-plus acre lots, all facing Wren Road, with adequate 15 frontage. No -- no new roads are required. It's not in the 16 floodplain. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Pretty clean. 18 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah. Recommend approval. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'll so move. 20 MR. WEST: Judge, may I ask a question? 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have a motion on the 22 floor. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Griffin 25 and seconded by Commissioner Williams that we approve the 44 1 preliminary plat of Wren Road Estates, Precinct Number 4. 2 Mr. West, you had a question? 3 MR. WEST: Does the geographical location of 4 this property -- is it in such a position that the 5 connection of Wren Road -- future connection of Wren Road to 6 Interstate 10 should be considered at some point? Because 7 that's going to be a problem when this High Water Bridge is 8 completed over the river. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: We brought this up and we 10 talked to TexDOT, and they don't seem to have any immediate 11 plans to acquire any right-of-ways, so I think we can't stop 12 everything and wait for them. They just have to deal with 13 it when they -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean -- 15 MR. JOHNSTON: -- they decide. They wouldn't 16 give us any definite answer. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion's been made and 18 seconded. Any further comments or questions? If not, all 19 in favor, raise your right hand -- time out. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question I had was, there 21 is -- is this pretty far up -- I guess my question is, it 22 seems like they've done a lot of work out there already. Is 23 this one of the subdivisions I'm thinking about that's on 24 Wren Road that they're -- I mean, it's -- and it's just -- I 25 guess I have a bit of a problem with developers coming to us 45 1 after they've already done the work. And, I mean, I don't 2 have a problem with what they're doing; looks good, but 3 it's -- and the reason I say that was I received a compliant 4 from someone I know about this subdivision, asked me if I 5 knew about it. I said, "We haven't looked at anything on 6 Wren Road." And, I looked at the thing; it was just -- 7 there was a lot of construction going on. And, I guess, you 8 know, how do we handle, in the future, developers -- or how, 9 in general -- and it happens all over, and certainly in 10 Precinct 2, when developers don't come to us before they 11 start work. Just -- or maybe this may not be the right 12 subdivision I'm thinking about. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, you know, we -- 14 last year I sort of looked at the same thing, and went 15 through all of the book in regard to the law, and best I can 16 understand it -- and there's nothing that we have the 17 authority -- we can't stop somebody from clearing the land, 18 for example. We can't stop them from -- even though they 19 know they're going to put a subdivision there, they're going 20 to work it through the system, we can't make them quit 21 cutting trees or shoving dirt around. Now, the immediate 22 neighbors oftentimes are going to say, "Wait a minute, that 23 subdivision hasn't been approved, and they're over there 24 with a bulldozer knocking the trees down," but there's 25 nothing legally you can do about that. That's just clearing 46 1 the property. They own it. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So I don't think 4 there's a whole lot we can do. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a private 6 property issue. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's a private 8 property issue. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: And if they divide it in such 10 a way as there there's nothing for us to look at, to inspect 11 or anything. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And this is a good 13 example, brings it up, because there's no roads involved. 14 My concern frequently comes when they start making roads, 15 and then -- 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Where we get them -- 17 where we ultimately can get to them is when they try to sell 18 that property, you know. And, if they're going to try to 19 sell a lot that's carved out as a part of a subdivision, and 20 they haven't had it approved, you know, we've got something 21 to work on. But, until that time -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- it's a private 24 property issue. If they want to clear it, they can clear 25 it. 47 1 MR. JOHNSTON: The only loophole from the 2 platting, if they divide it like this, it's facing the 3 roads, its over 10 acres, they don't have to plat it. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's right. They 6 can even get around that. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion has again been made 8 and seconded. Any further discussion? If not, all in 9 favor, raise your right hand. 10 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: If not -- all opposed, same 12 sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 15 6, consider and discuss extension of Mary Ruth Road in 16 Precinct Number 1. Commissioner Baldwin. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 18 Mr. Cabaniss, Don Cabaniss is coming forward. He lives at 19 the end of Mary Ruth Road. Some of you folks have met 20 Mr. Cabaniss before and seen him in this courtroom. Kerr 21 County owns and maintains -- I can't remember the -- a 22 portion of Mary Ruth Road. And, there is a portion that 23 extends on to Mr. Cabaniss' house, and his -- basically, his 24 request is that the County take over that remaining portion 25 to his house and build it up to County standards. He's been 48 1 to the Commissioners Court several times and been denied 2 here. And, he and I and the County Engineer met a couple 3 weeks ago and went over this several times, and -- and I 4 promised him that I would let him come to Commissioners 5 Court again, and if -- but it would be my last time to 6 offer. If -- if you guys turned him down and wouldn't see 7 things his way, that it would be my last time to bring him 8 in here. And, he was talking about, at that time, possibly 9 going and seeking legal action. And, hopefully, as I said 10 to him at that time, if he goes that route, hopefully that 11 we can -- his attorney and the County Attorney can sit down 12 and work it out before we get into a courtroom, as good 13 neighbors should. So, Mr. Cabaniss, take it away, sir. 14 MR. CABANISS: I purchased this property in 15 '69, and was told then that the County would maintain the 16 roads, which they did. They took over the roads out there 17 in that area and they maintained them. They only maintained 18 a portion of Mary Ruth. In other words, they took part of 19 it, and the rest of it they didn't do nothing to it. I went 20 to Road and Bridge and asked them then, why not complete the 21 rest of this road, that my property is on the backside of 22 it. There's 12 other pieces of property back there. They 23 told me then nobody lived back there, so it wasn't practical 24 for them to -- to maintain the road. I built a home out 25 there. They told me it was a private road. They couldn't 49 1 do nothing to it, it was a private road. 2 Now, I'm not the only one living back there. There's 3 another couple; my daughter and her husband live back there 4 also. They said it's a private road. My deed says I'm 5 giving up 25 feet of my property for a public road. I come 6 back to them again and say: It's not a private road, it's a 7 public road." Then they tell me, "Well, it might be a 8 public road, but it's not a county road." We have the 9 plot -- my daughter and them are getting ready to build a 10 house out there, and there's -- it's specified that the 11 Turtle Creek Ranches deeded this property to Kerr County in 12 1972. Now, if it's County road, why in the world can't we 13 get the rest of that road fixed? Why should us 11 property 14 owners or 12 property owners pay to get this road up to 15 standards, when all the rest of them out there have been 16 fixed? Most of them have been blacktopped. The equipment 17 is out there. All we're asking right now is to grade this 18 thing until you can budget it and put it back up to 19 standards. And, that's my problem. 20 I doubt very seriously if we can get E.M.S. out there. 21 My wife's got a bad heart. If we have a -- an emergency out 22 there, I doubt very seriously if we can get E.M.S. out 23 there. Now, that's our situation out there. It's not a 24 private road. There's other property owners out there. Had 25 this road been maintained like the rest of it from '72, then 50 1 it wouldn't be in the shape it's in right now. Now, if I'm 2 asking for something that it's not right, I don't think so. 3 I think it should have been handled way back when it was -- 4 in '72, when it was maintained. It's not up to standards; 5 why can't it be grandfathered? You know, I think right's 6 right, and I think the road should be up to standards, or at 7 least graded this year. That's it. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is there any evidence that 9 the road was accepted by the County in 1972 for County 10 purposes? 11 MR. CABANISS: That's the stats on it, 12 Paragraph 2, Line 2. Now, that's from the surveyors, but 13 I've been given the runaround all along on this thing. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Johnston, is there any 15 record at Road and Bridge that this segment of Mary Ruth was 16 ever accepted by the County for maintenance? 17 MR. JOHNSTON: All the maintained roads at 18 Road and Bridge were by Court Order of Commissioners Court, 19 specific road and the length, from, you know, some point to 20 another point. And, Mary Ruth, there's a certain length, 21 and it's paved up to that point, and there's a sign there, 22 "County Maintenance Ends," and that's what's on our road 23 list. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's exactly the 51 1 situation that we had with Lake Ingram Estates, and that's 2 the reason we've gone to the formation of a road district 3 and bond election that the homeowners or the landowners have 4 to vote in favor of, so that the taxes then are raised to 5 pay for the upgrade of the road. It's exactly the same 6 situation. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, it is. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was just observing, 9 Commissioner Baldwin, that I have a very similar situation. 10 There right on the border between his precinct and mine is 11 Val Verde South, and it's just over the ridge from the 12 Shadow Ridge group where we're trying to form another road 13 district, and it's a caliche road just like this gentleman 14 is talking about. It goes back there, and there are 15 probably 20 homes in there. And, it's not a County- 16 maintained road, but -- it is dedicated for public use, but 17 it's not a County road. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is something that 19 every -- is in each precinct. I think, through Commissioner 20 Griffin's and Commissioner Williams' work on the road 21 districts, that's the alternative, is throughout the county, 22 I think that if, you know, the owners on the road want to 23 pursue forming a road district, it can be done, but the 24 County cannot just, you know, accept a portion of the road 25 that we, you know, had previously not accepted, unless that 52 1 road's brought up to, you know, standards. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And a road district is 3 one way of doing that. And, it -- we're doing the first one 4 now, and I think it's going to work. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a meeting 6 Friday with the folks in Shadow Ridge, and the folks on Val 7 Verde South have been invited to participate in that meeting 8 for the purpose of joining in the road district -- 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's one way -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- potentially, and 11 there's -- we'll be taking it from caliche to completion, 12 whereas the others are reconstruction. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, Mr. Cabaniss, I think 15 the answer to your request is that, unless we have legal 16 evidence that that portion of Mary Ruth Road was accepted by 17 the County and has been on the list of County-maintained 18 roads, that there is no obligation on the part of the County 19 to maintain that portion of Mary Ruth. There are procedures 20 whereby the County will accept maintenance of a road if that 21 road is brought up to the current standards, and that's what 22 you've heard discussion here just now on. Our methods 23 whereby the homeowners can get together and either form a 24 road district or pool their funds in order to come up with 25 the necessary dollars required in order to bring the road up 53 1 to County standards, at which time it could be accepted into 2 the County maintenance program. 3 MR. CABANISS: So, what, the County maintains 4 to the sign, from there on back, and then it's considered 5 private road? Is that what you're saying? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: I did not say anything about 7 private or public. That's not a determination we have to 8 make. The determination is whether or not the portion of 9 the -- whether or not the portion of the road you're 10 referring to was ever accepted formally by the County for 11 County maintenance. 12 MR. CABANISS: Where can I find these 13 records, sir, that the County accepted just a mile or two 14 miles of Mary Ruth Road? See, back at that time, each 15 Commissioner had their own -- Road and Bridge? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, there is a 17 comprehensive list of those roads which have been accepted 18 for County maintenance out at the Road and Bridge 19 Department. 20 MR. CABANISS: It's just when it was approved? 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And it has -- in that 22 list is the court order number; I can almost pull it off the 23 top of my head. I think it's 18316. I believe it was the 24 one that -- when we formed the Road and Bridge Department, 25 that took in all of the roads that were not on record as 54 1 being in the County road system, but you can look on that 2 list. In fact, you can even call Road and Bridge 3 Department, give them the name of the road; they can give 4 you the court order that accepted the portion that's there. 5 You can then go to the County Clerk's office and get a copy 6 of that court order. These are all included in one order, 7 is the only reason I remember. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, sir. 9 MR. CABANISS: Thank you. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item of business is 11 consideration approval of fees to be charged in conjunction 12 with the Kerr County Sexual-Oriented Business Order, Kerr 13 County Commissioners Court Order Number 26287. Ms. Bailey? 14 MS. BAILEY: I had provided you in the 15 packet, along with that agenda item request, proposed 16 application forms. Although those are not under specific 17 consideration today, they do have blanks for what fees we 18 want to put in there, and I don't think it's necessary for 19 the Court to necessarily approve or disapprove the 20 application forms, but I just wanted you to see them to see 21 if you had any comments or discussion about how those could 22 be changed. But, the real basic deal is we need to come up 23 with what specific fees are going to be charged. 24 The way I have those set up, it will be one charge for 25 an initial application and one charge for a renewal 55 1 application. Those either can be the same or different, but 2 I would suspect that just because it takes less work for a 3 renewal once you've already got it established, the renewal 4 should be less. I also have it set up so that the Class 2 5 enterprises and the Class 1 enterprises have separate 6 applications, and it will probably need separate 7 consideration of the fees because of the different nature of 8 the kind of -- of work that you're talking about. I have 9 reviewed a couple of other orders. The Harris County order 10 for the Class 1 enterprise, I believe, has an initial fee of 11 $475. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $475? 13 MS. BAILEY: I think that's right. And 14 renewal is somewhat less than that. But, I think the 15 Guadalupe County order has an initial fee of $2,000, and a 16 renewal of $1,000, so there's a wide range. It would -- it 17 would be my guess that the reason for the difference is that 18 in Harris County they have a number of them; they've sort of 19 developed a routine, and therefore, it therefore becomes 20 easier and less expensive to do it. I think probably in a 21 county this size, where we don't have -- anticipate having 22 more than one or two of these applications maybe in five 23 years, that would require a little bit more attention and -- 24 and work by the Sheriff's Department and all the other 25 people involved to do it. So, I suspect that we'd want to 56 1 have somewhat of a higher initial fee, at least, and perhaps 2 even the renewal fee. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Question. 4 MS. BAILEY: Yes, sir? 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: These things will be 6 on file if someone would go to the Sheriff's Department; is 7 that what I understood from -- 8 MS. BAILEY: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- previous 10 discussions on this? And, so, that's where we would 11 directly -- anyone who ever asked where to go to get an 12 application, they would go to the Sheriff's Department. 13 MS. BAILEY: That's correct. Although, just 14 as -- as Sheriff Hierholzer suggested to me, that if this is 15 not something that they do on a real regular basis, and 16 we're certainly hoping that it would not be, that they are 17 concerned that they may not be able to find the file where 18 the applications are. And, it's my intention to also keep a 19 copy of these on file at the County Attorney's office so 20 that we can provide those if they -- if they get lost in the 21 shuffle over there. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: One last question. Is 23 there any -- in your research over there, did you find any 24 statutory limit on what the fees can be, or is there any 25 court decision or anything that we know of that -- that 57 1 limits how high these fees can be? 2 MS. BAILEY: I didn't find anything. I have 3 not specifically looked for that, but it would be my guess 4 that it's the same sort of analysis that you make when 5 you're deciding what the distance level is that you can make 6 from -- from that business to the churches, schools, and so 7 forth. It's one of those that the higher you make it, the 8 more you're subject to criticism for making it a prohibitive 9 fee and keeping people out of the ability to do -- do 10 business. But, it has to be, certainly, high enough to 11 cover our -- our expenses, and we're going to have 12 substantial expenses from all the background checks and 13 public hearings and posting and all that sort of stuff. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you going to pose 16 any recommendations -- or make any recommendations? 17 MS. BAILEY: I'd certainly recommend that we 18 go closer to the higher amounts that I've seen, the $2,000 19 and the $1,000, than the $475. I don't think that we can do 20 the work that needs to be done in order to do the background 21 check and the posting and the public hearings and the 22 investigation and supervision for $475. As I said, 23 Guadalupe County, I believe it is, uses the $2,000 as 24 initial fee. That hasn't been overturned. It's certainly 25 been considered acceptable there. I don't have a specific 58 1 recommendation, but I'm thinking something in that 2 neighborhood would be appropriate. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move that we put, 4 for the original application, $2,000, and $1,000 for the 5 renewal. 6 MS. BAILEY: That will be for the Class 1 7 businesses? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is correct. 9 MS. BAILEY: Now, for the Class 2, that would 10 be the entertainers and the operators and managers. I would 11 recommend somewhat less than that, because you're talking 12 about individual people, not a business. But, again, 13 certainly something that would cover our expenses. Maybe 14 $500 or $750 for the initial, and a little bit less than 15 that for a renewal. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Again, what did -- do 17 you recall what Guadalupe County did? 18 MS. BAILEY: I don't specifically, but I 19 think it was in -- in the range that I'm discussing. I know 20 that Harris County had an initial and renewal of somewhere 21 in the $200 area, $275 and $225, something in that area, for 22 the -- for the -- 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Commissioner Baldwin, 24 if we -- I would suggest, for your motion, that we look at 25 $750 and $250 for the renewal on the individual, because 59 1 you're just talking about one background check on the 2 renewal. 3 MS. BAILEY: Right. I think it would be 4 limited on the renewal. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. So, like, $750 6 and $250 on the Class 2. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two and one? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, two and one. 9 $750 is fine with me. That's great. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I second. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 12 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Griffin, that we set the 13 application fee for a Class 1 license at $2,000, the renewal 14 fee at $1,000, and that we set the application fee for Class 15 2 license at $750, and the renewal at $250. Any further 16 discussion? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only a comment. 18 Again, it goes to typographical errors. If you take a look 19 at the block of type underneath -- on Page 1, underneath the 20 rectangular -- about three or four typographical errors. 21 MS. BAILEY: Oh, I perhaps did not 22 spell-check it; I knew that I could count on you to check 23 that sort of thing. I'll run it through before I send it 24 over to the Sheriff's Department. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill Williams, 60 1 spell-checker. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further discussion? If 3 not, all in favor of the motion, raise your right hand. 4 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carried. While 8 Ms. Bailey's here, I'll remind her we have an Executive 9 Session today when we conclude our regular business, 10 hopefully around 11:30, 11:45. Okay, we'll move on now to 11 Item Number 8, consider and discuss the approval of a bond 12 for Constable of Precinct 2. Mr. Ayala has obtained his 13 bond. We need to approve it. He intended to be here, but 14 Judge Wright had need of his services this morning, and so 15 he is not here. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It would appear that 17 the bond is in order, and it is signed by the Clerk. Do you 18 know if it is not if order? 19 MS. BARBEE: It is in order. He just needed to 20 present it. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move we accept the 22 bond for Precinct 2 Commissioner Joel Ayala in the amount of 23 $1,500. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner? Or J.P. -- 25 or Constable? 61 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry. 2 Constable. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought you were making 4 a change down there. Second. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Third. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 7 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 8 accept and approve the bond in the amount of $1,500 for 9 Constable Joel Ayala, Precinct 2. Any further discussion? 10 If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 11 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: He can spell, but -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can't read. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Item Number 9, consider and 18 discuss releasing security pledged to Kerr County. Ms. 19 Nemec? 20 MS. NEMEC: Our bank depository, Security 21 State Bank, has requested that we release $500,000 in 22 securities that are pledged to our account. We currently 23 have approximately $6 million on deposit, and over 24 $8 million in pledged securities, so there is a sufficient 25 amount in securities, so we're -- releasing that security 62 1 would leave us with enough pledged for what's on deposit. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 5 seconded by Commissioner Baldwin that the Court authorize 6 release of security pledged to Kerr County, which is CUSIP 7 Number 9128274C3 in the amount of $500,000. Any further 8 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 9 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 13 MS. NEMEC: Thank you. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Number 10, 15 consider and discuss substitutions in the Capital Outlay 16 purchase budget for the current 1999-2000 budget monies. 17 Mr. Holekamp. 18 MR. HOLEKAMP: Did y'all get the list of the 19 substitutions? Anybody have any problem? It's within the 20 budget, the riding lawnmower item. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You just want these 22 items instead of -- 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. What I did is I 24 purchased a -- a riding lawnmower for less costwise than 25 what I had budgeted for, and the remaining money I would 63 1 like to use for these particular items, to accomplish 2 several different things that we need to -- the pressure 3 washer, especially, for a project that we need to do at the 4 Ag Barn. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move the Court 6 approve the substitutions in the Capital Outlay for 7 Facilities Use and Maintenance, Line 10-510-570, purchases 8 for the '99-2000 budget. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 11 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 12 approve the substitutions in the Capital Outlay line item 13 for the current 1999-2000 budget year. Any further 14 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 15 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 19 11, consider and discuss setting a workshop for Law 20 Enforcement radio system, Project 25. Commissioner Baldwin. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Before we 22 get too far into this thing, I've got a -- I have a couple 23 of questions. If my memory serves me, we had hired a 24 company. Is it Trott? 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's right, Trott 64 1 Communications. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Trott Communications, 3 to study our County needs as far as radios are concerned, et 4 cetera. Now, my question is, when is that study due to come 5 back to us? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: They weren't hired to do a 7 study, per se. They were hired to prepare a request for 8 offers so we could go out and solicit offers to redo the 9 Sheriff's Department communications system. And, according 10 to Sheriff Hierholzer, they have basically completed their 11 work. They are prepared to come down on the 24th of this 12 month and present to us their work product, and at that 13 time, the Court will be in a position, if we so desire, to 14 accept their draft of request for offers and send it out 15 into the electronic world to see what kind of response we 16 get as to updating the radio communications capability of 17 the Sheriff's Department. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Go out for bids? 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah, basically go out for 20 bids. Go out for offers. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'd like to pass on 22 this issue, thank you. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Next number is 65 1 Item Number 12, consider and discuss authorizing Grantworks 2 of Austin, Texas, to proceed to prepare and apply for Texas 3 Community Development Program grant through the Colonia 4 Comprehensive Planning Fund for planning, coordination, and 5 mapping assistance for water, sewer, drainage, and streets 6 in the unincorporated areas of Kerr County. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is a 8 continuation of the item that we discussed and had on the 9 agenda two weeks ago. This Grantworks of Austin would 10 prepare -- we asked them to do so -- a grant application for 11 purposes of mapping the unincorporated areas of Kerr County 12 for water, drainage, sewer, and so forth. They will also -- 13 they will conduct a public hearing, which is the companion 14 item, 2.13. And, so, 2.12 would authorize us to proceed, 15 and 2.13 would set a date for a public hearing. I so move 16 2.12. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion's been made that we 18 authorize Grantworks of Texas -- Austin to proceed and apply 19 for the Texas Community Developments Program grant. Do I 20 have a second? 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Second by Commissioner 23 Griffin. I will say, in -- in the nature of discussion, 24 that I -- I spoke with Judge Richard Evans from Bandera 25 about these people, and he's very pleased with their work. 66 1 He said they've done everything they said they would, and 2 have not -- have come through in good style. So, I think 3 that's a pretty good recommendation. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I spoke with Judge 5 Montgomery from Medina County, and the same report. Very, 6 very high marks. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Any further 8 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 9 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item 2.13, 13 consider and discuss setting date for public hearing on 14 submission of the grant application. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, these folks 16 will come in and conduct the public hearing for us. We need 17 to set the date and advertise it, of course. And, they 18 would prefer that it be a weekday after 5 p.m., so those who 19 might be of a mind to attend could do so. So, I guess it's 20 just up to us to set a date, and it has to be done before -- 21 or has to be -- yes, has to be done -- I would suggest we do 22 it this week. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm not sure that that's 24 enough time. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Early next week, 67 1 then. I would move that we set -- what's the date? Today 2 is the 10th. 17th -- that we set a public hearing for 3 5 p.m. on Monday, the 17th. When does it have to be done 4 by? 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Has to be done by the 24th. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: By the 24th. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: The reason for that is the 8 deadline for the application is, like, the 25th. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Make it 5:30 p.m., 10 give people a chance to get to it. 5:30 p.m. on Monday, the 11 24th, Grantworks will conduct a public -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Monday, the 17th. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Monday, the 17th. 14 4/17, 5:30 p.m. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tell me -- tell me 16 again what a public hearing is with them? I guess -- is 17 that a Commissioners Court meeting? 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: The sponsoring agency has to 19 have a public hearing, so it would be a Commissioners Court 20 meeting, yes. It would be a meeting called for the purpose 21 of conducting a public hearing on the application for this 22 planning grant. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is there a motion on 24 the table? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I moved it. 68 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz -- 3 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 4 set a public hearing for Monday, April 17th, at 5:30 p.m., 5 here in the Commissioners' Courtroom, on the submission of a 6 grant application of Texas Community Development Program by 7 Grantworks of Austin, Texas, on behalf of Kerr County, for 8 funding, planning, coordination, and mapping assistance for 9 water, sewer, drainage, and streets in the unincorporated 10 areas. Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise 11 your right hand. 12 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's do Item 14, and then 16 we'll take a quick break. Item 14 is to consider and 17 discuss granting permission to Turtle Creek Volunteer Fire 18 Department to install a dry hydrant on Kerr County 19 right-of-way on Fall Creek Road at the John Loyd property 20 lake. Commissioner Williams? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I had a call from 22 George Holekamp, who's been very much involved in the 23 conservation district's dry hydrant program, and they have 24 been trying for some time to get funding for the 25 installation of a dry hydrant on Fall Creek Road. I guess 69 1 that really is a project of the Turtle Creek Volunteer Fire 2 Department, but they're going to come over and do it in 3 Precinct 2, and so all they're asking is permission -- for 4 us to grant them permission to put it on the right-of-way at 5 the location of the John Loyd property, and the water would 6 be pumped out of the John Loyd lake there. I believe we've 7 done that before, have we not, Franklin? 8 MR. JOHNSTON: I believe we have. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So, I so move 10 that we give permission for the installation of the dry 11 hydrant on Kerr County road right-of-way on Fall Creek Road 12 at the John Loyd property there. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 15 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 16 authorize the Turtle Creek Volunteer Fire Department to 17 install a dry hydrant on Kerr County right-of-way on Fall 18 Creek Road at the John Loyd property lake. Any further 19 discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only comment is we might 21 just mention that they coordinate the exact location. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: With Road and Bridge. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Coordinate the exact 25 location with Road and Bridge so we don't end up having to 70 1 move it. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further discussion? If 3 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 4 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Court will 8 now take a quick break. Let's try to be back at 10:35. 9 (Recess taken from 10:25 a.m. to 10:35 a.m.) 10 - - - - - - - - - - 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. It's 10:35 on 12 Monday morning. We'll reconvene the regular session of the 13 Kerr County Commissioners Court. Next item for discussion 14 is Item 15, consider and discuss the procedures for adopting 15 rules and regulations for county parks. Commissioner Letz. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just put this on the 17 agenda. I've had some calls, and also my thought is that we 18 need to -- certainly, Flat Rock Park basically being 19 complete, or most of it being complete, and we'll probably 20 have more access to it before long; we probably need to 21 adopt some rules and regulations for the park, and just 22 wanted to figure out -- we kind of looked at this -- 23 Commissioner Baldwin, correct me, was it two years ago? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we had a -- 71 1 Commissioners Court formed a committee, and they got bogged 2 down with so many rules that they never even came back to 3 the Court to formally -- so, it kind of died, so I'm not 4 sure. And, we thought we had a good committee on that one. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can try the committee 7 route again, or we can just, you know, maybe get with the 8 City, see what City of Kerrville does on Hays Park. 9 Whatever they have seems to work. And, I just wanted some 10 guidance from the Court on how the Court should pursue it. 11 I do think whatever we adopt should apply to all county 12 parks, which, to me, is Ingram, Lions Park in Center Point, 13 and Flat Rock. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think it might be 15 quicker to get to -- to get some examples, like the City of 16 Kerrville, and perhaps ask some other counties about our 17 size what they may have in rules already developed, and we 18 take and go from there, rather than trying to start from 19 scratch, because that could be an awful lot of work for a 20 committee, and certainly for the Court if we try to do that. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. Well, I'll 22 just undertake, myself, to come up with several examples and 23 present them to the Court as soon as, you know, we can get 24 to that, which is as soon as I get to it. I just wanted to 25 make sure the direction -- we were all on the same page. 72 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Next item is Item 2 Number 16, consider and discuss the Kerr County Subdivision 3 Rules and Regulations and setting public hearing for same. 4 Commissioner Letz. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think everyone received 6 last week the most recent draft, dated March 30th, of the 7 Subdivision Rules and Regulations. I read through them 8 since I was -- you know, I guess, basically, yesterday 9 again, and I have some new questions that -- personally, 10 that I have on them. Also, I talked with the County 11 Attorney's office and asked them -- they have not gone 12 through these yet. And, I don't think they need to spend a 13 great deal of time with the County Attorney; just see what 14 jumps out, as far as inconsistencies. I think it would be 15 helpful to have their -- so, my recommendation is that we -- 16 you know, any comments from the Commissioners, we try to 17 incorporate them in, you know. And then -- but defer 18 setting the public hearing until we get a draft that 19 everyone's comfortable with and that the County Attorney's 20 had time to review. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Any comments? 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. No, I think 25 that's good idea. 73 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Any comments? If any 2 Commissioner has any comments, throughout -- I will note 3 that the newest language for water availability is in these 4 that we have. But -- 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: One thing, Jonathan. 6 If -- if the County Attorney could do the same -- address 7 those kind of issues like we talked about a little bit 8 earlier on whether or not -- on Item 20, and that is, are 9 we -- have we sort of gotten off to some more stringent 10 regulations than are really required? And, if so, just to 11 get us a good description on those, too. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Any time they see a 14 public hearing or a vote has to be taken by the majority, 15 they should be able to go through the statute pretty quick. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. And, any other -- 17 I might say, any comments that anyone has, if they would get 18 them to myself, I'll, you know, get them incorporated and we 19 can note them at our next meeting and just make sure that we 20 have it right. I don't want to -- it's a long document, an 21 important document. We need to make sure everything's 22 correct before we set it for public hearing. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: One issue that I will raise 24 is, I've had some -- some interest conveyed to me on the lot 25 sizes, the 2 1/2 acres for a minimum lot size for well and a 74 1 septic, and 1 acre for a lot with public water system and 2 septic. I've had some people express concern to me that 3 those sizes should be reviewed at this time. I note that 4 Bandera -- we don't follow them, but they do have many of 5 the same issues. They've gone to a 5-acre minimum for 6 private well and septic. I think that's something that 7 maybe we'll wait till the public hearing, or maybe we want 8 to address ahead of time. I think that's something that 9 it's time again to take a look at. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would think that -- I 11 mean, if we're contemplating a change in that direction, to 12 make the change now, so the public is aware of what we're 13 thinking of doing, rather than making it at the public 14 hearing. And, that way, if people do have a strong 15 objection on the -- just my personal opinion -- on if there 16 is a public water system and sewage collection system, to 17 me, 1 acre is reasonable on that. I don't have a real 18 problem on that size. On the other, if you are going to 19 go to private well and septic, then I don't have a real 20 problem with increasing it above 2 1/2. I don't know 21 that -- you know, 5, in my mind, is getting pretty large, 22 and -- you know. But 2 1/2, you know, 3, somewhere in 23 there. I'm certainly open to discussion about going to 3, 24 4, possibly 5. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I had a visit last 75 1 week from a gentleman who lives in your neck of the county, 2 but is in Precinct 2, who you know very well, 'cause he 3 serves on Region J with you, Mr. Moeller. And he was making 4 me aware of the things that other counties changed in terms 5 of lot sizes, whether it's 5 or -- 5 acres minimum for 6 private water and septic, 2 acres where it's public water 7 and private septic, a half acre public water and sewer. So, 8 that was -- I think that's represented to be the Bandera 9 County changes. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a good point that 11 you -- if you do go with public water and public septic, you 12 know, the smaller the better. I mean, it encourages them 13 because of economics, and 1 acre is pretty large for a -- 14 some of these collections systems. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think if we have public 16 water and public -- 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sewer. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- sewer, that it would -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Half acre? 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Half acre or -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Whatever they want, 22 almost. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Basically, I was going to say 24 that. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true. 76 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: We don't necessarily need to 2 address the issue of lot size if they have both public water 3 and public sewer. I mean -- 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's right. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: There are some parts of the 6 county where you could do some very, very nice upscale 7 zero-lot-line developments, and it kind of defeats the 8 purpose of a zero lot line to have half an acre minimum. 9 So, I certainly would not -- would be in favor of increasing 10 the 2 1/2 to 3 1/2, 5, taking the 1 up to 2, and then having 11 no minimum size for a lot that's served by both public water 12 and public sewer. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Hear, hear. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, I'll put in some 15 language to incorporate that. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Anyone else? 17 Franklin? 18 MR. JOHNSTON: I've been getting copies of 19 several letters that David Motley has written concerning 20 Section 8 of the new rules, Manufactured Home Rental 21 Communities. Might be some -- he's doing that, I guess, but 22 there may be some areas in there that can be looked at. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's an area -- I think 24 we need to specifically make sure that manufactured homes 25 language is consistent with the rest of the subdivision 77 1 language. And I think it's pretty close, but, I mean, 2 there's a few words that are out. Just to make sure that on 3 that one point, that they are. 4 MR. JOHNSTON: I think their sticking point 5 is width of a right-of-way or something, road space or 6 something like that. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, you know, we need 8 to make sure that those are in line with each other. I 9 thought we had -- we tried to make them in line, but, you 10 know, there may be a little more work needed there as well. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're referring to 12 the County Attorney's dissertation on that? 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We heard more about 14 that today. I think sometime in the future. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. So, we'll target, 17 perhaps, the first meeting in May? Or do you think -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably the first 19 meeting in May to have everything worked out, and then set a 20 public hearing for the -- we ought to be able to get it 21 through by then. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we're getting closer. 24 T.? You had -- 25 MR. SANDLIN: I had one question, if I could, 78 1 hopefully just for a clarification. Has to do with 2 Appendix -- T. Sandlin, 911. I notice -- this is my point. 3 I notice that the changes, they are -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where are you? 5 MR. SANDLIN: I'm in the appendix section, on 6 Appendix I, and I think it's both on Appendix I and on these 7 routing slips. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 MR. SANDLIN: On the final plat, it doesn't 10 have a 911 sign-off, but on the preliminary plat it has a 11 911 sign-off. Is that the way that y'all desire it, that we 12 try to satisfy road name and address issues on the 13 preliminary plat? Or would you rather that be on the final 14 plat? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think from the -- the 16 road name portion of it, I saw that same thing, and I was 17 going to bring it up. 18 MR. SANDLIN: That's been a problem with us 19 in the past. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the road names 21 need to be done at preliminary. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think so, too. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because that has -- 24 because otherwise, they have to change the names, 25 potentially, after they've already done all the work, and -- 79 1 MR. SANDLIN: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- a lot of copying. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Additional plats. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Plat work. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Expense, too. But, 6 the -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The numbering -- I was 8 going to ask you this outside of the meeting, but I'll ask 9 you now -- is to -- to me, it seems confusing to put that on 10 the plat. I'm trying to figure out the real reason why we 11 need to put lot numbers on a plat. It seems it would be 12 easier, to me, for -- and for 911, is that when you get the 13 final plat, the copy of it, then people come in, you can 14 assign the numbers, or you can even assign them ahead of 15 time with your little tick marks, but to put them on the 16 plat, it has been some confusion, because some lots get two 17 numbers, and it's kind of -- I know why it was done. It was 18 to try to solve this issue of people wanting to go to the 19 post office and get addressing before they came, you know -- 20 MR. SANDLIN: And then corner lots. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And corner lots. But I'm 22 just wondering if -- if that is something that is really 23 necessary to be on the plats, if that can't be handled by 24 your office outside of the platting process. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would highly 80 1 recommend that we do it that way, because I -- the confusion 2 that we've raised with putting those initials -- numbers 3 on -- the lot numbers on the plat, is that the landowner 4 says, "Hey, I got this -- I got this plat that says 107, and 5 when I -- when I got my assigned number, it turned out to be 6 114." So -- or 113, it should be in that case. But, 7 anyway, the point being that I think the procedure we 8 outline would be a better one. 9 MR. SANDLIN: Do you want something like the 10 block ranges on the roads or anything, or just leave that 11 totally -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Leave it blank. 13 MR. SANDLIN: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's a part of 15 the -- that's a part of the assignment process that you do 16 after a subdivision is approved. 17 MR. SANDLIN: The only problem we ran into a 18 couple times, I may recall, we okayed something on a 19 preliminary plat, and then during the stage from when it was 20 preliminaried to when it came to y'all, there was some 21 changes that -- either in the road layout or road names, and 22 we didn't know anything about it. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's exactly the 24 reason it would be better not to assign those numbers until 25 after the final plat. 81 1 MR. SANDLIN: But I'm talking about the 2 actual road name, the road number stuff, and the developers 3 have come back to me and said, wait a minute. We brought 4 the preliminary plat in, y'all approved these as your 5 guidelines. We made a few changes, and now you're telling 6 me that it's -- you're not approving where we extended that 7 road or something, if we -- there's just been a couple of 8 those. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I mean, I -- from 10 the -- I mean, clearly, to me, the preliminary point, you 11 know, is necessary for you to approve the names. 12 MR. SANDLIN: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, but also they 14 do make changes. Again, if they were making -- and I don't 15 know if it's something that we need to run all final plats 16 back by you, or if Road and Bridge can look at the two and 17 say, this one's got to go -- it would be a Road and Bridge 18 determination if they have made changes. I mean, if there's 19 changes, clearly, it's got to go back to you. But, if we 20 simplify it for -- 21 MR. SANDLIN: Yeah. My question was just, at 22 which point do we sign off, particularly on the road name 23 issue. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think you've got to 82 1 do that at the preliminary part. Probably wouldn't hurt 2 for -- for the final to be run back by them for any changes 3 that were made, and if there's no changes, it -- (snapped 4 fingers) two seconds. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, he signs off on the 6 final, right? You have a chance to look at it before you 7 sign it. 8 MR. SANDLIN: Not on this. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's why we're 10 talking about it. 11 MR. JOHNSTON: You actually sign the mylar, 12 so you can see if there's changes. That's why it's not on 13 the final checklist, because you have the opportunity to 14 sign the mylar. That's your check-off, look at it and see 15 if it's right. 16 MR. SANDLIN: Okay. Just a -- like I say, I 17 want to make sure that got clear, because that had been an 18 issue in the past. Other than that, I think it's looking 19 great. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone else? Anything else 22 on the Subdivision Rules? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Franklin, are you going 24 to get with Truby on the lot numbers, make that change? 25 MR. JOHNSTON: Make that, yes. 83 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not lot -- not lot 2 numbers, address numbers. 3 MR. SANDLIN: Address numbers. 4 MR. JOHNSTON: Addresses, right. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, keep the lots. T. 6 started turning red all of a sudden back there. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. We'll move now to Item 8 Number 17, which is consider and discuss a budget amendment 9 to move funds from the County Purchasing Agent line item to 10 the necessary line items for implementation of internet 11 services for county offices through a contract with 12 Kerrville Telephone Company. Commissioner Griffin. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. I think the 14 Court's aware that we've been working over the last several 15 weeks on getting county-wide internet service in the 16 courthouse and to the outlying offices, and to be able to 17 have a web site hosted by Kerrville Telephone Company. 18 Tommy and I had been working that, and it appears that -- 19 that the cost to rewire the court -- that's recable the 20 courthouse and to purchase the necessary equipment to be 21 able to hub the right kind of equipment will run about 22 $5,000, and we want to get that moving now. Since we have 23 delayed the County Purchasing Agent initiative substantially 24 from our original schedule, my proposal is to take the 25 $5,000 that it's going to cost to do all of that and to have 84 1 an all-up system from that line item for the Purchasing 2 Agent, and move that into Mainframe Maintenance, which will 3 allow all of the hardware, all of the cabling and the 4 necessary support from Software Group, to have us an all-up 5 system ready to go pretty quick. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Two weeks. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Couple weeks. Three 8 weeks. That's -- cabling time is probably the biggest 9 challenge. This is included in that. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What all in the 11 courthouse would be cabled, Larry? 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Everything. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Every office and so 14 forth? 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What we will do is we 16 will only attach for now what the department head wants 17 attached to the system. But, we're -- while we're at it, 18 knowing where we're going with the internet world, we're 19 going to go ahead and cable to every office, so that we 20 don't have to go back in and do that again. It's just a 21 matter of time before we're going to have more than less. 22 So -- so, we might as well do the cabling right and do it 23 the first time, not have to go back and spend money again. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Will this include the Annex, 25 as renovated, including the -- the unallocated space? 85 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Tommy, help me on the 2 unallocated space. I know the rest of it -- I think the 3 whole thing is cabled? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: All of the courtrooms are 5 already cabled. That was for -- when Kerrville Telephone 6 Company came in to do the telephone system or the telephone 7 wiring, they did -- they did cabling for -- for networking 8 to every phone jack. So, we -- I mean, it's totally cabled, 9 the new part is. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The renovated portion 11 should be taken -- essentially taken care of. Now, what 12 this will do is take care of all the rest of the courthouse, 13 and the hubbing for all of that to get to the mainframe is 14 necessary to get to Kerrville Telephone Company -- back to 15 Kerrville Telephone Company for internet access for 16 everybody for all of those stations. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, my point is that 18 Commissioner Baldwin currently is involved in, you know, 19 the -- fielding the requests from people who are interested 20 in space on the lower floor of the basement of the Annex 21 once it's finished. Are we going to have to go back and 22 recable once we finish out that space, or is that -- are we 23 going to be in a position where we can just hook into the 24 service? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, what my -- in my mind, 86 1 the -- the logical thing to do is -- is divide the 2 courthouse and Annex into geographical locations with a -- 3 with an ethernet hub in each one. I visited some with the 4 telephone company. They're recommending that we -- that we 5 do fiberoptic cabling from -- from the server, which is in 6 the back part of the courthouse of our Annex, and have a hub 7 in the basement of this building. And, then -- then attach, 8 and then -- and then cable from the basement to the District 9 Clerk's area right now with -- with another hub. And, 10 then -- and then go down from the computer room to the 11 basement to serve the County Attorney's office and whoever 12 moves into that area with another hub. So, we'd have -- 13 we'd have four different ethernet hubs throughout -- 14 throughout the courthouse. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It would be a little 16 difficult to cable that unallocated area until we know where 17 things like walls are going to be, anyway. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But the hubbing is 20 there. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Will be there as a 23 result of this. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The 5,000 bucks will 25 bring the hub to that, regardless where your walls are. 87 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We may still require 2 some additional future cabling for that; that's going to 3 depend on how that gets built out, anyway. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That can be part of 6 the build-out cost. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: There's an existing equipment 8 room in the -- what I call the northwest corner of -- 9 adjacent to where the sallyport was at one time, and that's 10 where the service goes for -- from -- from the upstairs for 11 electrical power, as well as -- as well as telephone cabling 12 and -- and computer cabling. So, that's the logical place 13 to -- to put one now for -- for the future. And then, when 14 we know where everybody goes, then we can cable from that 15 point to wherever. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: These are going to be 17 relatively short runs from there. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, we're not talking 20 a large expense for that cabling until we know what this 21 layout is. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: The biggest time problem will 23 be in -- in having The Software Group schedule some person 24 to come here and do whatever we do from a mechanical 25 standpoint to get -- to get it tied together. 88 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'll make a motion 3 that we approve the Budget Amendment Number 2, as -- as 4 written. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 7 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Williams, that we approve 8 Budget Amendment Number 2 to move funds from the County 9 Purchasing Agent line item to the Mainframe Maintenance line 10 item for purposes of implementation of internet services for 11 county offices. Any further discussion? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Quick question. What 13 line item are you moving it into? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: It's a Maintenance -- 15 Maintenance line item. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mainframe Maintenance. 17 You're going to put the whole thing in there, and then -- 18 okay, and we'll be able to track it pretty clearly. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have one other 20 question, Larry. In terms of cabling, are we going to tie 21 it all -- or other parcels or buildings together? 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: For now, those will 23 still be dial-up -- those are going to be dial-up 24 connections. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 89 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sheriff's Department? 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. The Sheriff's 3 Department has -- has T-1 line back to here, so they're just 4 like they're sitting in the courthouse. But -- but for Road 5 and Bridge, Ag Barn, Ingram Annex, those will still be 6 dial-in -- dial-up accounts. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We'll look at getting 9 them as fast -- high-speed modems as we can as the 10 technology comes along. It may very well be that we can end 11 up with something similar to the high-speed line that will 12 go between here and the courthouse and Kerrville Telephone 13 Company. That technology is not available yet to those 14 outlying areas. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion's on the table. Any 16 further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right 17 hand. 18 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Item Number 18, consider and 22 discuss court order to -- 23 MR. TOMLINSON: Excuse me. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- obtain internet services 25 for county offices through a contract with the Kerrville 90 1 Telephone Company. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: If -- if you don't mind, 3 while I'm here, I'd like to cover these -- the bills. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, I'm sorry. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: The Intermedia bill for 6 $312.88 is federal excise tax on -- on our trunk lines. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we only pay that once a 8 year? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: No, it's monthly. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mm-hmm. Okay. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: On the -- on the bill from 12 Correctional Billing Services for $6.56, it's -- it's hard 13 to explain now what happened, but someone, from a pay phone, 14 made a collect call to the inmate phone system. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who made? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: They actually made two calls, 17 and they were accepted somewhere. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's great stuff; 19 that's worth $6. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I didn't know you 21 could call in to them. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I didn't, either. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Not supposed to be 24 able to, I don't think. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: They did. 91 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, someone did, and so -- 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Might be something you 3 want to check with the service provider. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: With the lack of a better 5 place to -- to charge this, the Sheriff wanted to charge it 6 to his -- his phone line item, so he -- we approved it. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you for those 8 explanations. Now we'll take up Item Number 18, consider 9 and discuss court order to obtain internet services for 10 county offices through the Kerrville Telephone Company. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I have to ask for some 12 help on this one from -- from Commissioner Letz and 13 Commissioner Baldwin. I understand that there was someone 14 at the phone company that said they would like -- since it 15 is a service, it is a service that they are providing, we 16 don't have a contract, per se -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- that somebody at 19 the telephone company said they would feel better if they 20 had a court order? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the other one was 22 sufficient. I think -- just think there was just never, I 23 think, a -- prior to 2.17, an order for them to start doing 24 work or doing stuff for us to be negotiating with them. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh. 92 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that that order 2 does that. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The budget amendment? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The budget amendment. 5 This was -- you know -- 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We're directing that 7 the work be done. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, we can skip this? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I think that court 11 order handles it. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Item Number 19, 13 consider and discuss the approval of the revised 911 14 guidelines, and authorize County Judge to sign the same upon 15 verification that the Kerrville City Council has approved 16 and authorized the same. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. I just put this 18 one on here because we -- once again, we are a little bit 19 closer; we think we do know that this -- the Kerrville City 20 Council has it on their agenda for tomorrow night to approve 21 these guidelines, as the latest copy that was distributed 22 earlier to you has it. We have it on as good authority as 23 we can get that it will sail through and the guidelines will 24 be approved. What this does -- what this agenda item does 25 is it allows us to go ahead and have Judge Henneke sign this 93 1 after he has determined that the City Council has approved 2 and signed the guidelines, and that will save us two weeks 3 of work by 911 for us having to wait until we convene again, 4 so that we can get the ball rolling on getting numbers 5 assigned and so on. And, I might point out, again, that -- 6 that T. Sandlin and the 911 staff have done a lot of work 7 already on assigning numbers out in the county, and that 8 that process can start immediately after the City approves 9 these guidelines and Judge Henneke signs the approval for 10 the guidelines, then we are off and running. And, we will 11 march smartly from west to east. Don't know how that 12 happened, but west to east in getting numbers assigned. 13 Just lucky, really. I mean, I didn't even ask him to do 14 this, but -- and that process can go relatively quickly, 15 because those numbers are already resident in the computer 16 now. They generate the notification letter, et cetera, 17 and -- and out it goes. T., anything to add to that? 18 MR. SANDLIN: No, sir, not really, except in 19 my last conversation with the City Friday and this morning, 20 they're so confident that it's going to pass that they've 21 already started correcting their maps, particularly on the 22 main roads. I brought y'all a copy of that. Also, very 23 quickly, 'cause I know we're running short of time, just as 24 a quick -- sorry, I'll leave this with you. The issue of 25 what -- which way we're going, I'll just remind the Court 94 1 that we left that up to the Post Office. Normally, you 2 address from east to west and from south to north; I think 3 that's just tradition. The west end Postmasters announced 4 that they were ready to start conversion before the east end 5 did, and that's why we're marching west to east instead of 6 the usual -- the other way. And, then, I'll show y'all real 7 quickly that one area that covers those routes we're working 8 on -- I'm sorry, I've got my back to everybody. I'll leave 9 this with you. These yellow areas, bright yellow, we have 10 numbered; we're just waiting on the go to start issuing 11 letters on them. The lesser -- or the kind of gold letters, 12 goldish-colored blocked-in areas, we may have some -- 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: These? 14 MR. SANDLIN: I -- uh-huh. I've got that 15 graphic over the wrong place; sorry about that. That's a 16 lot of Kerrville South. We've pretty well worked through 17 there, but there's either an issue -- a road name or an 18 issue with some block range that needs to be straightened 19 out on those areas before we will be ready to -- to march on 20 and start issuing letters there. So, you can see we've done 21 a lot of work along those routes. Plus, there's a lot of 22 individual addresses along here, but when I drew the map and 23 tried to put little stars or blocks showing y'all, it just 24 got too -- 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, what are these -- 95 1 MR. SANDLIN: Yeah. A lot of these areas, in 2 the green particularly, we've got a lot of addressing ready 3 to go in those areas. Like I said, I'll leave these with 4 y'all if you want them. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. So, we'll keep 6 our fingers crossed, and I'm sure that Judge Henneke will be 7 poised with pen waiting to get word that the City Council 8 has -- has bought off, and at that time we should be 9 underway. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question I have -- and I 11 think I know the answer, but I just want to make sure that 12 I'm reading it correctly. T., now that we're using the 13 suffixes instead of prefixes -- T. already knows my 14 question; I haven't even asked it yet -- that those will be 15 part of the official names, correct? 16 MR. SANDLIN: Yes, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And all street signs in 18 the City of Kerrville and everywhere will have that prefix 19 put on them? As a -- you know, not -- 20 MR. SANDLIN: Suffix. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I meant. 22 Suffix will be added to them as signs are replaced, or over 23 time? 24 MR. SANDLIN: Mm-hmm. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Another question, on the 96 1 marching from west to east. One year? Two years? Half a 2 year? 3 MR. SANDLIN: We're in that area where I may 4 be, in the next few weeks, better able to give you an idea, 5 because they're running into some of those issues on some 6 road names, which is the proper -- and the quicker we can 7 find out what this road name is or get some of these minor 8 roads that haven't been named, named, and get them into the 9 system, then that accelerates our process. So, there's some 10 issues there that I think we're going to get -- to get a 11 little experience with over the next few weeks, see how fast 12 some of us can go. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But, is it fair to 14 say we're probably talking weeks and months? We're not 15 talking -- 16 MR. SANDLIN: No. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- years to do -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Whole thing. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 20 MR. SANDLIN: Previously, I'd say somewhere 21 in the 18- to 24-month range. We can now compress that, 22 with some of the work we've done in getting everybody on 23 board. More like 12- to 18-month range, I think we'll be in 24 the 80 percentile category of having the stuff completed. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, on the duplicate 97 1 road names, you have a -- I presume, a list of those, 2 revised list? 3 MR. SANDLIN: It's -- as soon as someone in 4 Kerrville signs off tomorrow -- tomorrow night, starting 5 Wednesday -- I've already done a lot of the preliminary 6 work. It changes the scenario a little bit, changing that 7 suffix down there, and the minute we have that, which is the 8 precursor to doing them, I distribute it so everybody can 9 see -- I'm trying to figure out some way I can bring y'all 10 some maps without making these huge things everybody to has 11 to carry around to show you where those particular areas 12 are. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But, we're talking a 14 relatively small number now with the suffix? 15 MR. SANDLIN: The bigger issue is naming 16 of -- a lot of these unnamed roads have never been named, 17 and a lot of them are privately maintained and they're 18 private, private, private, private. So -- 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do I have a motion to -- 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. I move the 22 agenda item, that -- where are we? -- that we approve the 23 revised 911 guidelines and authorize the County Judge to 24 sign the same, on the condition that the Kerrville City 25 Council has approved the same. 98 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I second it. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 3 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 4 approve the revised 911 guidelines and authorize the County 5 Judge to sign the same at such time as the Kerrville City 6 Council has approved and signed the revised guidelines. Any 7 further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right 8 hand. 9 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good job, T. 14 MR. SANDLIN: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: 2.21, consider and discuss 18 reappointing Jim Miller and Dr. John Davis to the Joint 19 Airport Advisory Board. You have in your packet a 20 recommendation from Megan Caffall, the Airport Manager. Do 21 you have any discussion or comment on this? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only that both 23 Mr. Miller and Dr. Davis have expressed to me -- I don't 24 know about Commissioner Griffin -- their desire to be on 25 that. 99 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move that. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only question I have is, 4 how long have they been on that board? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Forever. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: I have no idea. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know -- 8 honestly, I don't know. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just wondering if, at 10 some point -- I have no problem with them, but if, at some 11 point, we should change those boards, if they've been there 12 for 20 years or something, just to get new thoughts and new 13 ideas. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: These two are very 15 well-qualified. I would suggest at least this one more 16 appointment, because there are several issues, like the 17 T-hangar issue, that they have been very part and parcel and 18 have been very -- and are very familiar with it, as well as 19 the Master Planning, which we're about to get approved, the 20 Master Plan for the airport. But, point well taken. I 21 think that these are the two we ought to have on there. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do I have a motion to that 24 effect? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I moved it. 100 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 3 Williams, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the 4 Commissioners Court reappoint Jim Miller and Dr. John Davis 5 to the Joint Airport Advisory Board. Any further 6 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 7 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Item 22, consider and discuss 11 the adoption of budget schedule. You have in your packet 12 the broad budget schedule for the remainder of this year, so 13 we can all start to think about how we're going to manage 14 the process this year. This is essentially the same generic 15 schedule as we had last year. Revised, obviously, for -- 16 for dates. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Looks fine. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like it. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 22 seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that we approve the budget 23 schedule for the 2000-2001 fiscal year budget. Any further 24 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 25 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 101 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carried. Item 2.23, 4 Commissioner Baldwin, do you want to take that one? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sir, we can. 6 Recently, we had had some discussions and conversations in 7 regards to the Open Meetings/Open Records Act. And, I 8 contacted Texas Association of Counties and asked if someone 9 from their organization could come down -- our organization 10 could come down and make a presentation. And, we have with 11 us Mr. Quincy Quinlan. He's the General Counsel for the 12 Texas Association of Counties, that has come down here to -- 13 and taking time to make a presentation to our Court. So -- 14 and I would hope not only -- the agenda says Open Meetings 15 Act, but I would hope that you'd touch on open records just 16 a little bit as you go along. So, I'd like to present 17 Mr. Quincy Quinlan. Mr. Quinlan? 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Quinlan, welcome. 19 MR. QUINLAN: Thank you. Good morning, and 20 thank you very much for the opportunity to address you on 21 two important subjects, open meetings and open records. I 22 was prepared to discuss both with you. And, I'm also glad 23 that Commissioner Baldwin said "our" organization, since the 24 Texas Association of Counties is, after all, the 25 organization which is comprised of all of Texas counties and 102 1 represents them. We get asked to do this in different 2 counties from time to time, and we're always excited to do 3 that. And, one of the reasons is, because of the nature of 4 the state, everybody knows about the history of Texas and 5 the rugged individualism. 6 Well, what's happened in the Legislature is we now have 7 a -- a frame of mind where we say that government belongs to 8 the people. And, what the statutes have evolved into is a 9 representation that we're not just interested in that as a 10 -- as a nice-sounding statement, but the Attorney General 11 and the Legislature have taken it upon themselves to say, 12 we're going to enforce this. We mean business. Government 13 has to be open. As a result of which I want to tell you 14 that the reason why open meetings and open records are so 15 important is because both statutes carry criminal penalties, 16 and these criminal penalties are increasingly being 17 enforced. And, so, in addition to the fact that government 18 should be open, it's of the people, for the people, by the 19 people, et cetera, those fine-sounding phrases, if we run 20 afoul of those statutes, we may find ourselves facing 21 criminal prosecution. 22 Having said that, I'm glad that Commissioner Baldwin 23 would call us, and we encourage the entire Court to call us 24 any time you've got issues. You certainly -- of course, I 25 must make one caveat. If you're looking for an official 103 1 written opinion, we cannot give you one. We're there to 2 research any questions of law that you want us to look at, 3 but if you want a written opinion, there are only two 4 sources you can get that from. One is your County Attorney. 5 I would urge you to consult that as your first line when you 6 need a formal opinion. And second, of course, is the 7 Attorney General. 8 All right. Having said that, let me dive into the Open 9 Meetings Act, which is found in Chapter 551 of the 10 Government Code. And, let me make a -- a boost for our 11 publications. We publish things from time to time at the 12 Texas Association of Counties. We've got two booklets that 13 I brought, I believe, 10 copies of each, I'm thinking; open 14 meetings and open records booklets, so y'all can have them 15 and give them to the department heads. Additionally, the 16 Attorney General publishes several rather larger books on 17 the same subject, open meetings and open records, which are 18 extremely helpful because they quote extensively from 19 Attorney General opinions. And, those are available by 20 calling the Attorney General's office. 21 Okay. Chapter 551 of the Government Code -- and the 22 first thing of substance it says is that "meetings must be 23 open to the public, except for expressly authorized 24 executive sessions." In other words, any time the 25 Commissioners Court gets together, it has to be open, unless 104 1 there is something in the Open Meetings law that says, 2 specifically, you can go into executive session. The second 3 thing of substance is that the public must be given notice 4 of the time and the place and the subject matter of the 5 meeting. We'll get into the nuances of that a little later, 6 but the Attorney General has held, in terms of what goes 7 into the notice, that any County Commissioner can put an 8 item on the agenda. 9 And, another critical factor is you need a quorum. I 10 know these sound elementary to you, but you'd be surprised 11 how many people trip over them. There has to be a quorum 12 for a proper meeting. The Open Meetings Act defines a 13 quorum as a majority of the governmental body, unless 14 otherwise defined by applicable law. And, the reason that 15 that is important is because, when do you your budgets, the 16 Local Government Code 81.006 calls for a different quorum. 17 It says before you can pass a tax as a Commissioners Court, 18 there have to be three of you present, as opposed to a 19 simple majority. The Code requires three members, but that 20 four must be present to vote on a tax, and so you understand 21 that's not just the simple quorum requirement in the Open 22 Meetings Act. And, an additional law that may apply 23 sometimes is the Court Construction Act, which defines the 24 quorum as a majority of the members fixed by statute. And, 25 so, the -- the meaning of the word "quorum" varies, 105 1 depending on the context. 2 All right. The Legislature, this past session, paid a 3 greet deal of attention to the question, what is a meeting? 4 It's defined in the statute as a deliberation between a 5 quorum of a governmental body, or between a governmental 6 body and another person, during which public business or 7 public policy over which the governmental body has 8 supervision or control is discussed or considered, or during 9 which the governmental body takes formal action. Let's 10 break that down. It's a deliberation between a quorum of 11 the governmental body. That is, a deliberation among 12 yourselves when there is more than a simple majority of you 13 present, or deliberation between you as a group and somebody 14 else when public business is discussed. And, a deliberation 15 is defined as a verbal exchange during a meeting. 16 This past session, as I was saying, the Legislature 17 amended the definition to make it clear that they would 18 close a loophole that had been before this that we used to 19 call the "employee briefing exception." That is, there was 20 a rule that said could you meet without posting if all you 21 were going to do was listen to reports. For example, on 22 your 911 issue you just had; if you sat there and just 23 listened and looked at the maps, and didn't say anything, 24 you didn't have to post. Well, that exception is gone now, 25 and any time there's an exchange between the governmental 106 1 body and someone else about public policy, that meeting must 2 be posted. However, if you gather at a purely social 3 function or at a workshop -- for example, the upcoming Texas 4 Association of Counties County Management Institute -- and 5 if you're not taking formal action or any discussion of 6 public business is merely incidental to the social function 7 you're at, or the convention or workshop, then you're okay; 8 you don't need to post. But, I warn you that the Attorney 9 General has ruled that regular breakfast meetings of a 10 Commissioners Court were subject to the Open Meetings Act, 11 unless the breakfast was purely social in nature and did not 12 in any way involve discussion or consideration of public 13 business or public policy. In other words, it couldn't be a 14 working breakfast; you'd have to notice that. 15 And, the Act also says that you can't get around the 16 meeting requirement by trying to meet in less than a quorum. 17 In other words, you can't go visit in each other's offices 18 and assemble a coalition of votes. If you do that and 19 that's found out, and it can be proved that that was your 20 intent, you have some major criminal liabilities staring you 21 in the face. And, as I think about that, I'm reminded of 22 one of the more famous cases in this area, where 23 Commissioners took an adjournment from a meeting and met in 24 the men's bathroom. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Locked door? 107 1 MR. QUINLAN: Pardon? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did they lock the 3 door? 4 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately for them, a 5 reporter was in a nearby stall. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MR. QUINLAN: Another point that -- that the 8 Attorney General has -- has addressed is the question of 9 subcommittees. For example, if, in the interests of 10 delegation of function and efficiency of time, you decide to 11 do your business through subcommittees, one or two of you 12 meeting as a subcommittee, the Attorney General has said if 13 the full Commissioners Court is going to rubber-stamp the 14 decision made in the subcommittee, the subcommittee must 15 then notice it as you would notice a regular Commissioners 16 Court meeting. So, for example, if you're getting ready to 17 work on your budget or on your insurance and it's more 18 efficient to do it with just one or two people present as 19 you're getting input from many and varied sources, if all 20 Commissioners Court is going to do is say, "Hey, we all 21 agree," then those subcommittee meetings need to be posted. 22 Okay. Now, let's get specific about notice. The 23 statute requires written notice of date, time, place, and 24 subject. However, the actions that are taken in violation 25 of the notice provision are not automatically void. They're 108 1 voidable. That is, when they're challenged, if they're 2 found to be in violation of the Act, then they can be 3 overturned. But, absent challenge, they'll be held to be 4 formal acts. The emphasis here is when the general 5 public -- not just the interested public, but when the 6 general public reads the notice, will they have fair 7 knowledge of exactly what it is you're going to discuss. 8 For example, a school board notice was held to be 9 insufficient when it said "Consideration of Hiring of 10 Personnel," when actually what they were going to do was 11 hire a new school superintendent. But, if you're just 12 hiring a low-level -- I say "low-level." Let me rephrase 13 that. If you're just hiring a secretary or office help or 14 something like that, where the public is not going to have 15 as much interest, then you don't need to go to the great 16 length. And, so, it's fact-specific. You need to 17 determine, is there something that the general public would 18 be really interested in? And, if it is, then you need to 19 spell it out a little more. 20 In terms of access to notice, Commissioners Court 21 meeting must be posted on a bulletin board in the County 22 Courthouse that is convenient to the public and that is open 23 to them for 72 hours prior to the meeting. In terms of 24 emergency meetings, you can post for an emergency meeting 25 two hours before the meeting, but I caution you, the Courts 109 1 have been reluctant to find emergencies. If you could have 2 thought of it three days ago, the Courts are going find, in 3 general, that you don't have an emergency. And, so, the 4 statutes are pretty strict; must be an imminent threat to 5 public health and safety or a reasonably unforeseeable 6 situation, and you have to identify the emergency 7 specifically in the notice. And, if you've got -- if 8 members of the public need to know who requested notice of 9 emergency meetings, you have to give it to them, as well. 10 In terms of conduct of your meetings, the Open Meetings 11 Act does not require that the public be allowed to speak or 12 to choose the items on your agenda. However, the Attorney 13 General has ruled that you, as a body, can give members of 14 the public permission to speak. Members of the public and 15 even members of the Commissioners Court are allowed to raise 16 subjects which are not on the agenda. However, the 17 discussion of those subjects must be limited strictly to 18 placing those items on the agenda for a future meeting. 19 However, if somebody's asking a question about a specific 20 policy, you can respond factually, but you can't go into any 21 long discussion. 22 And, the final point I want to make in terms of public 23 participation in the meetings -- and this is one of the 24 strongest requirements of the Open Meetings Act -- every 25 vote that you take has to be in public. And, I'm getting 110 1 ready to talk on executive sessions, so I might as well say, 2 straw votes are not allowed. Every vote has to be taken in 3 public, due to the accountability process. The people need 4 to know however -- how the Commissioners and County Judge 5 are voting. 6 Okay. The Act has several limited specific reasons why 7 you can go into executive session; that is, a meeting when 8 the public is not present. One, if consultation with an 9 attorney regarding pending or contemplated litigation, or if 10 a settlement offer or on a matter where your lawyer's -- 11 generally your County Judge's, ethical duty clearly 12 conflicts with the Open Meetings Act. How seriously does 13 the Attorney General take this first item? We've recently 14 had occasion, as the Texas Association of Counties, to have 15 to request opinions from the Attorney General on open 16 meetings -- open records stuff. And, when we were 17 challenging them, we're going, Here's a case that's clearly 18 open, it's clearly -- we've got an executive session, and 19 they're very strict about that. You've got to prove to them 20 that you've got a case that is either ongoing; you can show 21 them the pleadings, or one where it is extremely clear to 22 you that somebody's about to sue you. Some vague rumor 23 running around the county is not enough. You've got to show 24 some affirmative action that says they're getting ready to 25 sue us. We've got to talk to a lawyer in private. 111 1 The second exception from the open meeting is that you 2 can go into executive session where you're about to buy some 3 real estate, if discussing the proposed purchase in open 4 session would put you at a disadvantage in terms of 5 negotiating the price of the property. That, by the way, 6 has -- has also been the subject of quite some litigation. 7 Certainly, in Austin we've seen that with the environmental 8 efforts; they're challenging every attempt to purchase 9 property. And, certainly, as development grows here in the 10 Hill Country, you'll face much of the same problem also. 11 Thirdly, you can deliberate in executive session if you're 12 negotiating for a prospective gift or donation. If -- 13 again, if negotiating in the open would have a detrimental 14 effect. 15 And, the one that we get more questions on than any 16 other is executive session on personnel matters. You can go 17 into executive session to deliberate the appointment, 18 employment, evaluation, reassignment, duties, discipline, or 19 dismissal of a public officer or employee, or to hear 20 complaint or charge against the officer or employee. But, 21 it does not apply if that employee or officer requests that 22 your meeting be in the open. So, for example, if you have a 23 -- an unfavorable review of an elected official and you want 24 to talk about it, and the official says, "No, I want it in 25 the open," everything that you wanted to say has to be said 112 1 in the open. 2 However, if you're discussing changes regarding a class 3 of employees, as opposed to one specific employee, that has 4 to be in the open; you can't do it in executive session on 5 that. And, the reason why I was talking about criminal 6 penalties up front is there's a case coming up in San 7 Antonio that went all the way to the Texas Court of Criminal 8 Appeals, where a school superintendent participated in a 9 closed meeting. He did not know that the meeting was 10 improperly closed, and the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals 11 upheld the maximum sentence, which is a $1,000 fine and six 12 months incarceration. Fortunately for the school 13 superintendent, they probated the jail time. But -- but 14 that became a famous case around the state. People began to 15 understand that the Court's taking a serious look at the 16 Open Meetings Act, and the Court was very specific in saying 17 that intent had nothing to do with it. Whether you intended 18 to break the law or not is immaterial. Once you participate 19 in a closed meeting when it should have been open, you 20 violate the Act. 21 In terms of who you can have in executive session, the 22 Commissioners Court can exclude anyone whom it wishes from 23 executive session. There is an Attorney General opinion 24 that says you can exclude the County Clerk. On the other 25 hand, you can also have in there the people that you need 113 1 for informed discussion on the issue. So, in addition to -- 2 for example, if you have the attorney in on pending and 3 contemplated litigation, and there's somebody else who may 4 be the person against whom the suit's actually been filed, 5 and the County's just named because they work for the 6 County, you could have that person in there if -- and the 7 Attorney General has been very specific about that -- if 8 your interests are aligned. Sometimes, in our role as 9 providing coverages for counties, we come across situations 10 where the role of the employee is at cross-purposes with the 11 role of the County, and then you have to make a 12 determination whether having that person in executive 13 session furthers the business of the County. 14 In terms of the regular meeting, I'm sure you're 15 familiar with the minutes or tapes that have to be kept of 16 your meetings. I see that every word that I speak is being 17 recorded for posterity. For the -- for the executive 18 session, you need a certified agenda or tape recording. 19 There have been some issues as to who has access to the tape 20 recording. The statute is clear. This record has been 21 given more attention in the statute than almost any other 22 record. The certified agenda or the tape from your 23 executive session is not available to the public, and you 24 can only be forced to disclose it by court order. Nothing 25 short of a court order will allow to you disclose the 114 1 contents of the tape, and so anybody who unlawfully makes it 2 public is subject to a Class B misdemeanor and may be held 3 liable for actual damages, court costs, attorney's fees, and 4 exemplary damages. Certainly, any member of the 5 Commissioners Court is entitled to review the tape or the 6 certified agenda, but the Commissioners Court may adopt 7 rules on how that procedure is done. Additionally -- and 8 there's been some confusion about that; the Attorney General 9 has recently clarified this -- you can talk in public about 10 what was said in the Commissioners Court. All the statute 11 prohibits is the disclosure of the record, itself, the 12 certified agenda or the tape recording. 13 And, that's a -- a very brief overview, and I'm 14 certainly willing to address any questions you might have in 15 terms of open meetings. Do you want me to address them now, 16 or wait till the end when I'm finished with open records? 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Why don't we go ahead and do 18 them now, if that's all right with you? 19 MR. QUINLAN: Certainly. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner? You had your 21 hand up. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. You had touched 23 on the ability of a Commissioner going from one office to 24 another, just as kind of a straw poll type thing. What 25 about -- and you said that's a no-no. What about a memo? 115 1 What about if a Commissioner sent a memo around to everyone 2 saying, "I have intentions on going and doing this. Do you 3 have any advice for me how to handle this particular 4 situation?" What about something like that? 5 MR. QUINLAN: That's a tougher question. 6 But, it seems to me that that's one that should be addressed 7 to the County Attorney. The -- here is what I'm thinking; 8 here's what I'm reading from the Attorney General's comments 9 on these kind of issues. If -- if the intent is to find out 10 where the Court's going to be in advance of a meeting, that 11 smacks of trying to get around the courtroom requirement. 12 In other words, the meeting -- the statute's expecting the 13 meeting of the minds to take place; full, free, and frank 14 discussion to take place in the public, where the public can 15 see. If -- if we know in advance how we're going to vote 16 before we get into a particular issue, we've circumvented 17 the need to have the meeting in the open. We've come to the 18 meeting already decided on how we're going to vote, and 19 everybody knows how we're going to vote. We've presented 20 the public with a done deal instead of the full and frank 21 discussion that the Open Meetings Act is requiring. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I did that a couple of 23 years ago. I did the memo thing, and our County Attorney, 24 who's sitting right there beside you, chewed on me pretty 25 good for it. And I'm glad that they did. You know, I mean, 116 1 it just -- that wasn't a real clear issue in my mind. I was 2 just -- you know, I didn't think through it, and made a 3 mistake and broke the law, and they chewed on me pretty 4 good. I'm glad they did. Thank you. 5 MR. QUINLAN: Sorry it was so painful. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: If -- if one of us has a 7 responsibility for producing a -- a -- let's say an order on 8 manufactured housing infrastructure, can we circulate that 9 for comments prior to the meeting? 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Or, yeah, a draft 11 document of any kind. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: We send out a memo saying, 13 "Here is my draft of a proposed order regarding manufactured 14 housing infrastructure requirement. Please provide me with 15 any comments or questions you might have." 16 MR. QUINLAN: That's a good question. I'm 17 going to draft -- talk about draft documents when I talk 18 about open records, too. Just so you know, there's been a 19 recent development in that area, but I would suggest, again, 20 the question is the intent. If the purpose is to get a 21 discussion among the Commissioners that takes place outside 22 the courtroom, the idea is that the public has lost the 23 benefit of that discussion. If you circulate a paper that 24 you say we'll discuss at the meeting, "Here's my draft, 25 here's my best shot at it; when you come to the meeting, be 117 1 ready to discuss and see if we can come up with a different 2 draft," I'll be more in favor of the second position than 3 the first one. I mean, I understand it's one of the 4 frustrations that governments don't run as efficiently as 5 you would in private business, where you would send it 6 around to your Board of Directors and say, "Hey, guys, give 7 me your feedback so when we go in the meeting we can just 8 vote it. Unfortunately, the -- the nuances for public 9 service are a little different. People say all of that 10 discussion needs to take place in public, as opposed to in 11 private. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. You mentioned 13 about if we serve on other subcommittees, I guess. We all 14 serve on various -- we call them committees or different 15 boards and things that the County is part of, and then we're 16 kind of as liaisons, we term ourselves, for these positions. 17 Do they -- those meetings -- and we have not been posting 18 them. I would not think they would -- you can certainly 19 have a little bit -- like you said, if we rubber-stamp the 20 action taken at those -- or discussions taken at those 21 meetings, then these meetings need to be posted. One of the 22 most recent that comes to mind is Commissioner Williams and 23 I work on the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center. There's 24 a lot of deliberations with the full committee coming in, we 25 come back, make a report of that committee to the Court, and 118 1 we discuss it and then take action. And, is that okay? 2 MR. QUINLAN: Is it a County organization? 3 Is it fully funded by the County? Is it under your 4 jurisdiction? Is it something you'd budget for? 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's a -- a committee set up, 6 represented by citizens, as well as interest groups, to talk 7 about a Master Plan for our youth agricultural facility. 8 MR. QUINLAN: Is that facility owned by the 9 County? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 11 MR. QUINLAN: You fund it? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 13 MR. QUINLAN: If you have direct 14 responsibility for it, it would seem to me that the 15 discussion -- the discussion about the funding and 16 what-have-you needs to take place here and in open meeting. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's not just funding. It's 18 a master plan of the development. Do we need a bigger 19 roping arena? Do we need an Exhibition Hall? Do we need an 20 outside rodeo arena? Do we need -- how much parking do we 21 need? 22 MR. QUINLAN: That's interesting. I guess 23 what I'm trying to find out from you is, is it something you 24 supervise directly? I mean, do they report to you? Are 25 they responsible to you, or is it just something that you're 119 1 deciding as -- as a civic duty? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, it's a committee 3 which the Commissioner and I chair -- co-chair, for the 4 purpose of developing a Master Plan, which might entail 5 additional facilities, the rehabilitation of existing 6 facilities, and how to do that, which ultimately the Master 7 Plan has to be back to the Commissioners Court for its input 8 and action. 9 MR. QUINLAN: Okay. To the extent that you 10 consider it a subcommittee of the Commissioners Court, and 11 to the extent that you just rubber-stamp reports that come 12 back, you would need to notice it. If, however, it's a 13 subcommittee of the Commissioners Court, but you're going to 14 have full and frank discussion on it, then you don't need to 15 notice it. What the Act is saying, the final decision, if 16 it's going to be taken by you all, needs to be done after 17 full and frank deliberation. Otherwise, wherever the full 18 and frank deliberation is taking place, that meeting needs 19 to be noticed. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Now, I think the way 21 it's been done is exactly right, in that you have always 22 brought those -- any issue that came out of those meetings, 23 you always put on the agenda and we discussed it here before 24 taking any action, and we -- and I know we've not 25 rubber-stamped everything, 'cause I can remember a couple of 120 1 things that we said no, we're not going to do that, even 2 though the committee wanted to go buy something -- horse 3 stalls or something. At the time, we didn't do it because 4 we didn't think it was the right thing to do. I can 5 remember several times, so I think that -- I think that 6 portion has worked very well, in that it's always showed up 7 on the agenda, we've always had open, frank discussions, and 8 sometimes we've agreed, sometimes we haven't. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. The committee, 10 itself, is a broad-based committee of people from the 11 community. It's not a -- who's on the committee was 12 discussed, approved by the Court, with input from each 13 Commissioner in terms of who's going to serve, from all 14 walks of life and all interests out there. So, it's a very 15 broad-based committee that we chair. I guess what concerned 16 me was your terminology, "rubber-stamp." There could be an 17 issue, you know, after all of this, that comes back and we 18 make a presentation -- full and complete presentation of a 19 Master Plan that has evolved over many, many meetings over 20 many, many months, and many, many iterations, all of which, 21 at each stop along the way, the Commissioners Court has had 22 an opportunity to look at it, review it, input and so forth 23 and so on. And, the final -- the final, end product is 24 approved 5-0. Is that rubber-stamping it? 25 MR. QUINLAN: Good question. I wouldn't 121 1 think so. I mean, it's a determination that you have to 2 make. Again, I'm saying to you, hopefully, the threat of 3 prosecution is enough motivation for you to examine what it 4 is you're doing. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's very good 6 motivation. 7 MR. QUINLAN: All I'm saying is the Act is 8 saying deliberation of public business must be in the open. 9 So, wherever the deliberation is taking place, notice that. 10 I'll tell you, at Texas Association of Counties, in the 11 interests of completeness, we notice everything. It sounds 12 to me like at the time -- before the decision is made, you 13 have a full discussion at this body. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As long as we do that, 16 we're -- 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's the real intent 18 from the first. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're just basically 22 gathering information and bringing that information back for 23 deliberation. 24 MR. QUINLAN: Sounds good to me. Any other 25 questions? 122 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else on the open 2 meetings aspect? Okay. 3 MR. QUINLAN: Okay. Let me touch very 4 briefly on open records so we can get to the more important 5 thing of going to lunch. Let me read you the preamble to 6 the Open Records Act. I find it, personally, to be 7 interesting. "The people, in delegating authority, do not 8 give their public servants the right to decide what is good 9 for the people to know and what is not good for them to 10 know. The people insist on remaining informed so that they 11 may retain control over the instruments they have created." 12 The statute defines public information generally as any 13 information created by the governmental body or held by the 14 governmental body in response to official functions. And, 15 in general, public information is to be available to the 16 public at a minimum during normal business hours of the 17 governmental body. 18 As a caveat, I want to warn you, even though I just 19 read this grand statement about open government and the 20 people needing to know, distributing information that is 21 confidential by law is also a criminal act. And, so, we 22 have to be careful as we -- and sometimes people don't 23 understand, "Oh, it's open records; why don't you give to it 24 me now?" You have to decide, clearly, is this something I 25 can give the person? Because if this goes in confidential 123 1 information, it can also be prosecuted. Withholding 2 information that should be given, or giving out information 3 that should not be given are both misdemeanors, with the 4 usual six months in jail or fine of $1,000 or both. 5 MS. BAILEY: $2,000. 6 MR. QUINLAN: Oh, is it $2,000? I'm sorry, I 7 missed that one. Trying hard not to -- I recently ran up 8 against that doing some disclosure for Texas Association of 9 Counties. Okay. Here's the definition in general. Public 10 information is information collected, assembled, or 11 maintained by a governmental body or for a governmental 12 body, if it owns or has the right of access to the 13 information. When somebody requests information from you, 14 you have to show that the information is within one of the 15 exceptions to disclosure, or you have to turn the 16 information over. 17 A governmental body. In your case, you're quite sure 18 that a Commissioners Court is a governmental body, but the 19 definition, as you asked the question about the committees 20 that two of you serve on, with the -- the new building, a 21 governmental body includes an entity supported, in whole or 22 in part, by governmental funds. And, for example, that's 23 why we consider Texas Association of Counties to be a 24 governmental organization, even though it's incorporated and 25 what-have-you, because of the definition, "supported in 124 1 whole or in part by government funds." It is subject to the 2 Open Records Act. And, information is, of course, in this 3 Year 2000, in any form; e-mail, computer files, diskette, 4 paper. But, tangible items, such as tools or keys, things 5 of that nature, are not considered to be public information. 6 I warn you, in your conduct of your -- your positions 7 on the Court, that personal notes are not necessarily 8 excluded from the definition of personal information. 9 Relevant factors here would be who prepared the document, 10 who controls the document, and who has access to it, the 11 nature of its contents, whether the document is used in 12 conducting business of the governmental body, and whether 13 public funds were expended. In creating and maintaining the 14 documents, for example, there was a case where a State 15 agency executive -- her notes were held to be public 16 information, because her secretary, on State time, had been 17 keeping up her diary. And, so, you understand that some of 18 these are fact-specific. You -- and you have to be careful. 19 Each elected County official is the officer for public 20 information and the custodian of information for their 21 office. So, for example, if the Sheriff gets a public -- a 22 request for public information, it's not the duty of the 23 Commissioners Court to respond to that. We would suggest, 24 however -- and this is a practice they've been making in 25 other counties -- that there needs to be a coordinated 125 1 response to open records, because there are deadlines that 2 run when you get a request. For example, if you're not 3 going to turn the documents over, you have 10 business days 4 to request an opinion from the Attorney General, which is 5 the only thing that can stop the 10-day process from 6 running, and so we suggest -- because we've had alarm calls 7 to us, you know, it's the 9th day, and the Sheriff just got 8 it over to -- to somebody who's been designated to respond. 9 And, so, we suggest that the Court think, if you haven't 10 done so already, about recording the responsibility by all 11 the County, including those elected officials, in terms of 12 how you want to respond to open records. 13 In this last session, the Legislature added that every 14 custodian of records has to put up a sign that gives up -- 15 tells the public what their rights are, how they can get 16 documents, et cetera. If you don't have that sign, you can 17 call us; we've got them. You can download them, we can fax 18 them, mail them to you, whatever you want. But, the law now 19 is that each custodian of record must have that sign up so 20 the public can know. The duties of the office for public 21 information are to make the public information available for 22 inspection or copying, to protect the information from 23 deterioration, alteration, mutilation, loss, and to repair 24 public records when they become damaged. The main duty that 25 you have is, when somebody asks for public information, is 126 1 to turn it over. 2 I know this runs at odds with anybody who's worked in 3 government. "Why do I need to give them that?" I've been 4 there. I used to work in the Attorney General's office, and 5 I'm -- a friend of mine who used to try cases with me is now 6 head of open records for the Attorney General's office, and 7 you'd be surprised to find that within the Attorney 8 General's office, there are fights about public records. 9 So, she's got the -- there is a specific section of the 10 Attorney General's office that does nothing but respond to 11 open records requests, and they get requests from the 12 Attorney General's office, itself. And, so, the battle 13 between the Attorney General's office -- "No, we don't want 14 to turn it over." "Yes, you have to turn it over." "No, 15 you don't." And, so, that battle goes on. And, so, if they 16 don't do it for their own, they probably wouldn't do it for 17 us either. 18 I'll tell you, their bias is, turn it over. And, if 19 you ever have a -- an occasion to get the need to ask for a 20 report, you'll see that. If they're writing back to you, 21 their bias is going to be, turn it over. You have to make a 22 very strong case that, no, it fits within one of the 23 exceptions in the statute. And, you know, in retrospect, I 24 think that is a good thing, even though I'm sometimes 25 reluctant to turn over certain documents. As I said before, 127 1 it is the people's government; they do have a right to know. 2 Thankfully, you're not responsible for what people do when 3 you turn records over to them. People have been known to do 4 interesting things with governmental records. But, you're 5 not responsible, and you're not supposed to ask them what 6 they're going to do with it, either. You're supposed to 7 turn it over if there is no exception. 8 What the statute actually says is you should turn the 9 information over promptly. It doesn't say you should turn 10 it over in 1 day or 10 days. We use the 10 days as a rule 11 of thumb, because that's the amount of time you have to 12 respond to the -- to ask the Attorney General for an 13 opinion. Any request to you for open records should be in 14 writing. E-mail is considered writing; a fax is considered 15 writing. And, then they don't have to mention the Act. 16 Once they ask for documents, they've set in motion an open 17 records request. 18 When you get a request, you need to make a good-faith 19 effort to match what they asked to what you have. Don't go 20 into a cloud and pretend you have no idea what he's talking 21 about; if you can remotely get within where you think the 22 guy is -- or the woman is, you say, "Here's what we think it 23 is." You're also allowed, however, to ask for 24 clarification, and that stops the -- the deadlines running. 25 But, your clarification has to be in good faith. It has to 128 1 be that you clearly cannot identify a document from their 2 request. Or if they've asked you for so much information, 3 and you ask them, "Can you narrow the scope? Can we agree 4 on exactly what it is you want us to produce?" 5 As a caveat, I would note that you're not asked to 6 create documents. That's something that we have to explain 7 to people from time to time. Don't go do spreadsheets and 8 analysis, cover sheets for them. Whatever they want, you 9 give it to them. And, you're not -- you do not have to 10 update the information. If you get information after you've 11 responded, you're not required to do so. However, since 12 you're elected officials, you have to make a call on the 13 further prospects, as you deem, of this issue. And, 14 fortunately, you don't have to respond to requests from 15 inmates; for example, telephone records on collect calls. 16 Although you're required to treat, in general, every 17 request in the same way, there are some people who are more 18 special. For example, if the Legislature asks for 19 information, we say, "How high, sir?" And, a person or 20 person's representative, in general, has a special access to 21 documents that otherwise you would not make public, but you 22 can argue, as I've done successfully to the Texas Supreme 23 Court, that there are other laws that say, even though it's 24 your records, it's your health, and you have a right to 25 those, that there's some other law that prohibits me from 129 1 giving it to you. I've done that. But, those cases are 2 rare. 3 There is a personnel file provision to the Open Records 4 Act which says that the governmental body can't withhold 5 information from an employee on the grounds that it would 6 invade the employee's privacy. But, again, an employee does 7 not have an unfettered right to see their file. If you can 8 find some law that says that we can prohibit disclosure, 9 again, you can do that. But, again, I'm suggesting those 10 cases are relatively rare. 11 There's an issue that comes up from time to time; if 12 the Commissioners Court shares a document with the Sheriff's 13 Office or vica-versa, does that mean that the confidential 14 document has been made public, and so has to be given? The 15 answer generally is, it depends. But, the general rule is a 16 member of a governmental body, in his official capacity, is 17 not a member of the public, and so if the document's passed 18 pursuant to your official duties, then generally it has not 19 been disclosed. However, I caution you that disclosing 20 information to the federal government takes you outside of 21 the Open Records Act, and then it's considered as being 22 disclosed to the public. And, the courts have -- I'll 23 suggest to you, they've been splitting hairs, but their 24 point is, they're not subject to the same level of scrutiny 25 that we are with the Texas Open Records Act. The Texas Open 130 1 Records Act is actually a little tighter than the National 2 Freedom of Information Act, and so that's why the courts 3 made that determination. 4 Okay. As I was saying, in terms of the exceptions to 5 disclosure, if you get a document, you don't want to turn it 6 over, you have 10 business days to request an opinion from 7 the Attorney General, if there has been no previous Attorney 8 General decision exactly on-point. And, the Attorney 9 General caution is, don't jump to the conclusion that 10 there's been a decision exactly on-point. If it's not 11 exactly on-point, they say, ask us for an opinion. 12 Otherwise, you won't be protected. If you don't ask for a 13 decision, the presumption is that the documents are open; 14 you have to turn them over. The case law says that that 15 presumption can be overcome, but you've got to show 16 compelling interest. 17 By 15 days after the request has gotten to you, if 18 you're requesting an Attorney General opinion, you have to 19 send the Attorney General comments on why you think the 20 document should not be disclosed, and you have to submit a 21 copy of the information. This can be quite laborious, as we 22 found recently. And, then the Attorney General has 45 days 23 to respond to let you know whether they think the document 24 should be open. If they said they should be open, and you 25 still don't think they should be open, then you have to go 131 1 sue them in Travis County, which we've had to do recently. 2 Another issue that comes up a lot is, how much can you 3 charge for copies? When somebody sends in an open records 4 request, they can come and look at the documents, or you can 5 prepare the copies and send them. And, the question is, 6 when you have to prepare copies, how much can you charge? 7 You can charge up to 25 percent more than the General 8 Services Commission charges. But, if you overcharge them, 9 they can get three times the amount of the overcharge back 10 from you, so be careful. 11 There is a clash between the Open Records Act and the 12 statute that governs the County Clerks, and so you may ask, 13 why do citizens have to pay a dollar per page when they go 14 to the courthouse? First off, Court documents are exempt 15 from the Open Records Act. They're subject to statutes 16 and -- and case law, but not the Open Records Act. And, the 17 Local Government Code says that a clerk can charge a dollar 18 a page for noncertified copies. And, the open -- the 19 Attorney General has opined that those statutes take 20 precedence over the Open Records Act. 21 Okay. In terms of the specific exceptions that you 22 might be interested in, in terms of records that you can 23 withhold from the public, the general statement is 24 information made confidential by Constitutional, statutory, 25 or case law. The first one that many people are concerned 132 1 about is personnel information. You can't disclose it if 2 the disclosure could be a clearly unwarranted invasion of 3 privacy. And that, of course, is a fact-specific matter. 4 Be very careful as you think about disclosing people's 5 personal information. 6 All other information which is confidential is 7 litigation which the County is involved in, civil or 8 criminal, or to which a governmental entity or official, as 9 a consequence of his office, is a party. The litigation, 10 again, must be pending or reasonably anticipated, and the 11 information must relate to the litigation. And, sometimes 12 the Attorney General takes us to task for that. That's the 13 case I was mentioning where we had to sue them here about 14 two or three months ago, because we said, "We sent you the 15 pleadings; that's clearly pending litigation." They had a 16 tough time with that one. You have to make a very strong 17 showing. 18 Another thing that you need to be careful about is when 19 you take in bids, if the information that you're taking in 20 or -- you going on the internet, for example -- gives you 21 very technical information that's of value to them in terms 22 of bidding with competitors, then you have to be very 23 careful about releasing that. That is prohibited from 24 release if it would give an advantage to a competitor to 25 bid. We had to argue -- in another battle we had with the 133 1 Attorney General recently, one of the counties that we -- 2 that we provide coverages for, we were having to dispute 3 with them. As part of a litigation that they were involved 4 in, they asked for documents which would have shown how the 5 rates were calculated, and we argued that if we wore forced 6 to disclose those documents, that would put us at a distinct 7 disadvantage competing with anybody who wanted to compete 8 with us for coverages for the County. An argument which 9 they brought, by the way. We were thankful, but it took 10 quite a battle with them. And, so, you think about that as 11 you get bidding information, if somebody's giving you very 12 closely held business information. You don't want to turn 13 that over. 14 Again, your -- you don't have to turn over information 15 about the location or price of property for public purpose 16 prior to the public announcement of the project. As soon as 17 you've announced it, of course, then you have to disclose 18 that information like that. Another one that creates a lot 19 of discussion is information held by law enforcement 20 agencies or the prosecutor. And, the general rule there 21 is -- is you think about the Sheriff and County Attorney. 22 If turning over the information would have a negative effect 23 on an ongoing criminal investigation, then they don't have 24 to turn it over. Private correspondence of elected 25 office-holders. If -- if what's in the correspondence 134 1 relates to a matter that would constitute an invasion of 2 privacy, you don't have to turn it over. May I suggest that 3 you want a ruling from your County Attorney. What 4 constitutes an invasion of privacy is a very difficult 5 subject. 6 And, finally, intraagency or interagency memos or 7 letters that would not be available to somebody in 8 litigation; for example, somebody suing the County. And, as 9 a general matter, memos passing between parties are not 10 discoverable by the other side. You can make the 11 argument -- you know, a memo from the Sheriff, the County 12 Commissioners Court, you can't get it, 'cause you couldn't 13 get it in litigation; therefore, you -- they don't have to 14 give it to you as a public record. And, finally, in terms 15 of records of County employees, when an employee starts -- 16 I'm sure y'all have done this; most counties are aware of 17 this -- you should give them a choice whether they want the 18 Social Security number, address, and telephone number 19 disclosed. You should always give them a choice. Because 20 the statute says if they make that choice, then you cannot 21 give out the information. 22 Just as a caveat, I may warn you that the general rule 23 is, from the Attorney General in recent opinions, that 24 Social Security numbers -- you have to walk carefully. They 25 look at the -- the nexus between State law and federal law, 135 1 and only where those two come together is the disclosure of 2 Social Security numbers prohibited. In general, they are 3 prohibited, but there's some areas where they're not, and so 4 you want to, again, get some advice from your County 5 Attorney would be very helpful there. Well, that's a very 6 brief, very fast run-through of open records. Any questions 7 on open records? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question that I have is, 9 most of us probably have not -- all of us work out of our 10 homes, as well, have home offices where we do get ready 11 for -- you know, use our computers or whatever. Is all of 12 that information considered public, as well? 13 MR. QUINLAN: Yes. Any information that you 14 get in your official duty is public information. Anything 15 that's required to be given to you as part of your -- your 16 elected office is public information. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Barbara Nemec? 18 MS. NEMEC: I have a question for you. On 19 the personnel records, we do have the employees fill out the 20 privacy election form, and so most of them do fill it out 21 and they do not wish for to us give out their address and 22 Social Security number. On occasion, the Sheriff's Office 23 and County Attorney's office, because there's something -- 24 an investigation going on -- are we not to give that 25 information out to them, either? Normally, we ask them 136 1 to -- to send us a subpoena, and they do, before we release 2 it, but I know they're not too happy when we do that. So, 3 as -- as part of the county, are those records -- are we 4 allowed to release those records to them without the 5 subpoena? 6 MR. QUINLAN: That's a question that I'd like 7 to study a little more. Off the top of my head, we've 8 discussed that disclosing information between governmental 9 officials is not considered a disclosure to the public, and 10 so that's one thing, and then there are -- the rules vary a 11 little bit with -- in terms of criminal investigations. The 12 prohibition is -- I'm talking about giving them to the 13 general public, and giving them to the Sheriff would not be 14 the general public. Having said that, that's a question I 15 can study. If I can get your number, I can run some 16 Attorney General opinions and get back to you on that. 17 MS. NEMEC: Okay. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Couple questions I have. 19 When they send the request for open records, for 20 information, say, to myself as County Judge, am I only 21 required to disclose the information that's in my office? 22 MR. QUINLAN: No. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Or do I have implied access 24 to other people's records? For instance, let's say someone 25 writes in three months from now and wants minutes of today's 137 1 Court. I don't keep the minutes. I don't have minutes in 2 my office. They're kept in the County Clerk's office. 3 MR. QUINLAN: Right. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is my response to that to 5 write back and say I don't have any records? 6 MR. QUINLAN: That would not be a good 7 response. You are considered custodian of records for the 8 County, in general. Each elected official is custodian for 9 their records, and so each Commissioner would be custodian 10 for the records that they hold as Commissioner, and you 11 would be custodian of records for the County. And, the 12 minutes of the -- minutes of the County Commissioners 13 Court -- I know they're kept by the Clerk, but you'd have 14 ultimate responsibility for those. Your responsibility 15 would be essentially to go assemble them -- get somebody to 16 assemble and disclose. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: How far does that go? You 18 know, if someone wants the records of the amount of 19 fertilizer that we've bought in the Maintenance Department 20 for the past year -- 21 MR. QUINLAN: Find it and tell them. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Find it and tell them, okay. 23 MR. QUINLAN: They ask weird things, but -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How much -- on that same 25 line of thought, say, you know, the Judge received a request 138 1 on the Flat Rock Park project I've done a lot of work on. 2 And, the Judge doesn't know what I have in my office or 3 what's in -- you know, he has -- there's a file out here, 4 there's a file at the Clerk's office, and there's, you know, 5 files all over the county. However, does the Judge have to 6 go -- he just gets a request, "I want all the information 7 relating to the expenditure of Flat Rock Park." The Judge 8 doesn't know where that information may be. 9 MR. QUINLAN: Right. I mean, clearly, I 10 can't give you very fact-specific answers. But, based on 11 the discussion that we had this morning, it sounds to me 12 like that's a County property and project. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 14 MR. QUINLAN: Am I correct about that? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 16 MR. QUINLAN: If I was the Judge, I would 17 need to go find where the information is. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's kind of turn it on its 19 ear. Let's say, for some reason, they sent the request to 20 Commissioner Williams, who is not in charge of the Flat Rock 21 Lake project, asking him for all information relating to the 22 Flat Rock Lake project. What is his responsibility to look 23 beyond what's in his office? 24 MR. QUINLAN: His responsibility is to get 25 the request to you. 139 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Why would he? It's to him. 2 MR. QUINLAN: Because you're the custodian of 3 records. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: He's a separate -- am I the 5 custodian? I understood that each elected official -- 6 MR. QUINLAN: Right. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- was a distinct custodian 8 of records. 9 MR. QUINLAN: Right. And then there's a 10 custodian of records for the County. That's the county 11 outside elected offices. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you get -- 13 MR. QUINLAN: And that would be you. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, if -- if one of the 15 elected officials gets a request that's outside their 16 specific jurisdiction, they are supposed to refer it to me? 17 MR. QUINLAN: Yes. And that's why I 18 suggested at the outset that if you don't have one, you want 19 to get a correlated response, because it happens all the 20 time where people sit on it and on the 9th day, oh, they 21 suddenly remember or they're suddenly told they're supposed 22 to give it to somebody else, and then you have to start 23 scrambling. It happens all too frequently. It's too 24 unfortunate. We need a correlated response, and so there 25 needs to be some policy that says, no matter if you're an 140 1 elected County official or not, when we get an open records 2 request, let's cross-pollinate so that everybody who can -- 3 who can have some input and have some documents turns it 4 over. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, say, what happens if I 6 get a request for an Open Records Act, and it's involving 7 records that are in my office that relate to ongoing 8 litigation? And I send it down to the County Attorney's 9 office and say, "What do I do?" And I don't get a response 10 back in 10 days. Then what do I do? 11 MR. QUINLAN: Well, I think you'd get a 12 response back. I mean, I think the County Attorney's well 13 aware of the deadlines. But, I'd -- at the bottom, it's 14 your responsibility. The fact that you turn it over to the 15 County Attorney's office doesn't absolve you of 16 responsibility to go find documents. The response always to 17 an open records request is to ask all of your people, "What 18 do we have on this issue?" 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, when I've got to take 20 responsibility, and I sent the request down and I did not 21 get a -- I did not get an answer back -- 22 MR. QUINLAN: Which you're waiting for. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- I should have invited the 24 San Antonio Express News to come and look at what I had. 25 MR. QUINLAN: Now, you are asking me a 141 1 situation that sounds very fact-specific. But, that's why 2 I'm here, to let you know what's supposed to be done. I 3 mean, the -- I'm sounding facetious, but the response is, 4 you get a request, you start digging for documents. I mean, 5 that's -- unpleasant as it is. We don't like to do it 6 sometimes; it is a responsibility. Sure, we're waiting on 7 an opinion from somewhere else, but you got 10 days. If 8 you're unsure within 10 days, shoot a letter off to the 9 Attorney General, that stops the deadlines from rolling, and 10 say, "We got a problem; we don't think we should turn these 11 over." 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You addressed the issue 13 of copies. Can you charge for other, I guess, labor costs 14 to compile the records? 15 MR. QUINLAN: If it's more than 50 pages, you 16 can charge -- you can charge labor costs. There are 17 specific guidelines in the statute. You can talk with the 18 General Services Commission; they've got a whole bunch of 19 regulations that go to that. You want to be careful, but 20 yes, you can charge for that. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Actual charges based 22 on the employee's rate of pay? 23 MR. QUINLAN: Yes. 24 MS. BARBEE: It's $5 for the County Clerk's 25 office. That's what we usually charge for a records search 142 1 for outsiders, for anybody that calls in. Is that still 2 correct? 3 MR. QUINLAN: When you said $5 for records 4 search -- 5 MS. BARBEE: They indicate it would be $5 6 whenever anybody expends some amount of time looking for a 7 specific document, or searching it out, or even in the 8 County Court at Law, they charge $5 for a records search. 9 Is that still -- 10 MR. QUINLAN: As I indicated, court 11 records -- actual litigation, et cetera, records are treated 12 differently, because the courts are not subject to the Open 13 Records Act, a point which the Supreme Court made very clear 14 to the Attorney General when he tried to get phone records 15 from them. So, court records, themselves, are different 16 from County records. Does that make any sense? And, so, 17 they've got statutes. It's a little fuzzier in terms of the 18 County Clerk's -- if you're dealing with stuff that's pure 19 county, like the minutes of a meeting, that's clearly 20 governed by the Open Records Act. 21 MS. BARBEE: Right. 22 MR. QUINLAN: And that's not $5. That's 23 not -- 24 MS. BARBEE: No charge on that, but in the 25 other area, we do. 143 1 MR. QUINLAN: But, with the courts, you've 2 got the Local Government Code, which specifies it's $1 for 3 copying noncertified, and then you've got to charge for the 4 certifieds. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Any other questions? 6 Comments? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I appreciate your coming 8 down. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you very much. 10 MR. QUINLAN: My pleasure. Do you want me to 11 leave these with you? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 13 MR. QUINLAN: Wonderful. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Appreciate it. 15 MR. QUINLAN: And, as I said, do feel free to 16 call our toll-free line. That line rings directly into the 17 Legal Department, and we'll be happy to answer any 18 questions, do any research for you. Thank you so much. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, 21 Mr. Quinlan. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: We do have a -- a brief 23 executive session. Is it the desire of the Court to do that 24 now? 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 144 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: And not come back? 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Court will now go 4 into Executive Session to talk about pending litigation with 5 our County Attorney. 6 (The open session was closed at 12:10 p.m., and an Executive Session was held, the 7 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 8 - - - - - - - - - - 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's go back into open 10 session. And, if you'd open the door for us and flip the 11 sign, we'll adjourn. Commissioners Court will now return to 12 open session. There is no action taken or required as a 13 result of the Executive Session with the County Attorney on 14 pending or threatened litigation. Accordingly, if there's 15 no other business to come before the Court today, we stand 16 adjourned. 17 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 12:20 p.m.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 145 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 14th day of April, 8 2000. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25