1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Workshop 10 Monday, April 24, 2000 11 2:00 p.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 PURCHASING DEPARTMENT/PURCHASING AGENT 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 On Monday, April 24, 2000, at 2:00 o'clock p.m., a 2 Purchasing Department/Purchasing Agent Workshop was held in 3 the Commissioners Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's 2 o'clock on Monday 8 afternoon, April 24th, and we'll call to order this workshop 9 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. The topic today is 10 consider and discuss purchasing agents and purchasing 11 departments. Commissioner Griffin, I'll allow to you make 12 the introductions. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Great. To lead our -- 14 help us get started in the discussion today, we have two 15 guests with us: Beth Fleming and Donna Reilly, both from 16 Denton County. Ms. Fleming is the Director of Purchasing, 17 and Ms. Reilly is a -- is a senior buyer. By the way, Len, 18 she specializes in Road and Bridge kind of things, so -- 19 MR. ODOM: Maybe we want to hire her. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Would you like to live 21 in the Hill Country? 22 MS. REILLY: Yes. 23 MR. ODOM: We'll move the Coke machine, move 24 her in. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, there you go. 3 1 At any rate, we really do appreciate you taking the time to 2 drive down here on our behalf. We want to do a good 3 evaluation of the advantages of -- of going the purchasing 4 department route. There's some of us in County government 5 who feel that it's a good thing to -- to pursue. That 6 feeling is not totally unanimous for various reasons, so we 7 hope that maybe you can help us in some of the questions, 8 both -- so that both proponents and, we hope not too long, 9 non-backers will be able to hear answers, and somebody could 10 see sort of what the advantages are. So, I'll admit to my 11 bias up front; I've worked through purchasing agent kind of 12 setups before, and so I know the -- to me, what those 13 benefits are. But, we are really pleased to have you. 14 Are there any specific questions that any of 15 the Commissioners may have, or any of the department heads, 16 before we get started about purchasing? 'Cause I know 17 that -- that these two ladies are going to present some 18 material, and then we'll be able to question them, and 19 they've got at least one handout that we'll probably want 20 to, perhaps, take a quick look at and ask questions on that, 21 too. So, with that, Ms. Fleming, it's all yours. 22 MS. FLEMING: I really appreciate the 23 opportunity to be here. I'm actually representing the Texas 24 County Purchasing Association, which is a very new 25 association -- is this okay if I stand here, so I can see 4 1 everybody? Where the county purchasing agents got together 2 about six years ago and formed an association, basically for 3 networking and some educational benefits. But, in that 4 process, we've gathered up some information that we've been 5 trying to assist smaller counties when they get ready to 6 hire purchasing agents, that they can have some information 7 to help them get started. We've done salary surveys, we've 8 done job descriptions, put together policy packets and some 9 other information. So, when Commissioner Griffin called me, 10 I sent him quite a bit of information, and then what I 11 brought today is just some of the benefits of having a 12 centralized purchasing department. 13 Just for background, to let you know, in 14 1986, when Denton County first centralized their Purchasing 15 Department, I was hired on as a clerk in that office. So, 16 I've been in Denton County since we've had a purchasing 17 agent, and that is -- sounds like a long time ago now, but 18 seems like it was just the other day. I know some of the -- 19 the problems with trying to centralize purchasing when 20 you -- when you've not had it centralized. We phased ours 21 in. We gave Road and Bridge a little bit more time, because 22 it was harder to do everybody's at one time, and so we had 23 to think of new ways to -- to make it easy on the 24 departments so that they can continue doing their business, 25 but yet we could support them and, at the same time, save 5 1 some taxpayers' money. So, I've been there. I know what 2 you're going through, or what you're -- you're contemplating 3 going through, and know what some of those problems can be. 4 It was a long haul, and it took several years for us to 5 get -- get it going to where we felt real comfortable that 6 the Purchasing Department could handle all the transactions 7 and handle all the bidding and do it comfortably for 8 everyone. And, I think we have a real good system in place 9 right now. 10 One of the things that you may not realize is 11 that purchasing agents are responsible, first of all, for 12 customer service to the department. That's really our -- 13 all we are is a customer service agency for the rest of the 14 departments in the county. But, we also are responsible for 15 saving the taxpayers money, and that's really paramount in 16 the whole situation. But the third thing that most people 17 don't realize that purchasing agents are responsible for is 18 to make sure that we're -- we're servicing the vendors out 19 there. It is taxpayers' money, and those vendors have an 20 opportunity to be able to compete and obtain some of that, 21 so sometimes we have to play both sides. You have to make 22 sure that everything is fair and equal, which sometimes 23 makes it harder to get what the department wants, but the 24 purchasing agent is really responsible for that. The thing 25 that it will do is protect the County in making sure that 6 1 things are done right. You have kind of a comfort level 2 that somebody's double-checking to make sure all the bidding 3 laws are taken care of, that the vendors have an 4 opportunity. There's one central place for them to come. 5 They can compete for those dollars, and you're taking care 6 of that end, too. So, while most of the County departments 7 think that it's just a customer service and save money, 8 there is a third -- a third phase to that that -- that the 9 purchasing agent's responsible for. 10 I don't know how much you want me to say. I 11 don't have a lot of prepared information, but I did just put 12 together some -- some reasons why it is a good idea to have 13 a centralized purchasing department, and I'm not going to 14 read through all these; I'm going to leave this information 15 with you. But, there is a couple of articles that I have in 16 here, too. It -- you know, one of the things is saving the 17 money in the bidding law, when we have our $25,000 limit, 18 you need to be able -- have one person who can look at the 19 purchases for the year and make sure that all of those are 20 taken care of. One -- I don't know if -- I don't know 21 y'all's spending level and what you buy, but you may not 22 think that -- I'm trying to think of an item -- janitorial 23 supplies, which probably isn't high enough dollar for y'all, 24 but where you've got, you know, your facility buying them 25 over here and somebody else buying over here, and you're not 7 1 spending -- you don't think that you're spending over 2 $25,000, but you very well could be spending over $25,000. 3 That's probably not a very good example, but -- but if one 4 person is not looking out for that and making sure that 5 you're -- you're complying, you're actually violating the 6 bidding law, because you've not compiled those. Somewhere 7 during the budget process, you've allocated money for that 8 type of expense through a fiscal year, so you need to make 9 sure that someone's watching out for that. And, so, you're 10 saving money when you do bid it; you do get a lower price. 11 You can get an annual contract for those kinds of things, 12 but you're also complying with bidding laws. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. I think 14 probably a good example is gasoline, which every department 15 uses. 16 MS. FLEMING: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know we bid it. I 18 believe -- I know Road and Bridge bids it every time they 19 purchase. 20 MS. FLEMING: Mm-hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you have to look at 22 the whole county. If every department is bidding like that, 23 trying to get the best price, that meets the requirement of 24 over $25,000, would it not? 25 MS. FLEMING: If it's a formal bid. And if 8 1 it's a formal bid, it has to come through Commissioners 2 Court. They're probably getting three quotes, or making 3 sure that they have the best price, but if you're spending 4 over $25,000 county-wide, it needs to be an issue under 5 262.023 where it comes through the Commissioners Court and 6 is awarded by Commissioners Court. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you have to award it 8 every time you -- 9 MS. FLEMING: No, we do an annual contract. 10 We actually have renewal terms based on the -- based on -- 11 MS. REILLY: Firm profit margin. 12 MS. FLEMING: Firm profit margin. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The option here is 14 like an option to renew it. 15 MS. FLEMING: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. ODOM: If it doesn't change, the price 17 doesn't change. 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 MR. ODOM: Well, yeah, but basically that law 20 is in the statutes, three years you can ask the Court to 21 renew that contract. But, would -- I'm sorry, I'm -- maybe 22 I'll just come back. I have some other questions. 23 MS. FLEMING: We do that on a firm price 24 margin -- profit margin, so that the price does fluctuate. 25 MR. ODOM: It does fluctuate; it should 9 1 fluctuate. But, it does the same way that we do it, and 2 there's a difference of 10 to 20 cents in vendors each time 3 that -- you know, maybe every two or three weeks that we bid 4 this out for gasoline for us, for Road and Bridge, for 5 diesel. So, we -- we found, over the nine years, our 6 budget's been flat, and that line item's been right there 7 too because of that. There have been some times where you 8 have a firm contract, you'll find the price will escalate on 9 it. When we do it, we -- we nail them. 10 MS. FLEMING: Do you do it for, like, a 11 3-month period? 12 MR. ODOM: No, we do it every time -- 13 whenever we start to run out of fuel, then we have a price 14 for all three yards, and we get -- we get bids from all the 15 vendors. And, we find a fluctuation of 10 to 20 cents. 16 MS. FLEMING: And ours is sometimes a 17 hundredth of a cent between ours. It may be the difference 18 in our area in the metroplex, more vendors. I don't know if 19 that would make a difference or not, but -- 20 MR. ODOM: Could be. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But isn't there a 22 bigger question that you touched on, Jonathan, that -- the 23 real question is, does Kerr County spend more than $25,000 a 24 year in fuel? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, we do. That was my 10 1 question, was does it meet -- I mean, if you're going out 2 each time for bids, is that the -- do you have to go out for 3 one, so even though it may cost more, you have to go out one 4 time for bids for gasoline for the year? 5 MS. FLEMING: I'm not an attorney, but in -- 6 from everything I've read and what I understand from the 7 Comptroller's office, I would say, yes, that you're required 8 to do a formal bid on it, because you've allocated funds for 9 an annual period over $25,000. 10 MR. ODOM: But, that would be for one vendor. 11 One vendor. 12 MS. FLEMING: See, I disagree with that. 13 MR. ODOM: Well, I would disagree with you, 14 but I -- the law states if I spent $25,000 with one vendor. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. No. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 17 MS. FLEMING: I don't think it's one vendor. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One item. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: $25,000 per type of goods or 20 services, not per vendor. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The law is specific on 22 that. The law specifically says you can't do that; you 23 can't bust it up into little pieces. 24 MR. ODOM: No. No, no. I'm saying a vendor. 25 If I'm doing business with a vendor, I'm limited to $15,000. 11 1 The Court is limited to $25,000. 2 MS. FLEMING: Is that in the -- in a Road and 3 Bridge statute? 4 MR. ODOM: In the Transportation Code, we're 5 limited to $15,000 -- or the Vernon state statutes. We're 6 limited to $15,000. That's an order of the -- specifically, 7 of the Court, too; they're limited by statute at $25,000. 8 But, we never go to one vendor over -- over a -- 9 MS. FLEMING: See, I would say that the 10 bidding laws supersedes that with the $25,000. I've -- I'm 11 not going to argue with you, 'cause I'm not sure what that 12 other one says, and I'm not -- you know, I don't know. But, 13 that's just the way we approach it, is that if we're 14 spending that amount -- 15 MR. ODOM: That's a logical way to do it. 16 MS. FLEMING: One of the things on my first 17 list here is, if you're in doubt, you'd better bid it so 18 that you don't have anyone question whether or not you're 19 doing that. That's kind of the philosophy that we use, and 20 we do a lot of contracts. But, we -- we feel like we're 21 saving money, you know, by doing that. We know we are. So, 22 I don't know if it's the way the local vendors are set up or 23 what, as far as gas. But -- 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Can you quantify, over the 25 course of the years, how much you think you've saved, a 12 1 percentage? 2 MS. FLEMING: No. I've had people ask me 3 that before, and I don't know of other people that have, 4 either. I do know specific contracts we can go back and 5 look before it was bid, and we've actually saved quite a 6 bit, but I could not give you a figure or -- or anything. 7 And I don't know of anybody -- any purchasing agent that has 8 done that, actually. The quantities and everything 9 fluctuate so much. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the population of 11 Denton? 12 MS. FLEMING: We're, like, 400,000. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: 400,000. 14 MS. FLEMING: We were 180,000 when we first 15 centralized. 16 MR. ODOM: And you're how close to the 17 metroplex? 18 MS. FLEMING: We are 30, 40 miles from the 19 metroplex. 20 MR. ODOM: And Lawton's up above you right 21 there? 22 MS. FLEMING: Where? 23 MR. ODOM: Lawton, Oklahoma. 24 MS. FLEMING: It's pretty far; it's way up. 25 Yeah, we're about 70, 80 miles from the border. Is that -- 13 1 MS. REILLY: Yeah, from Oklahoma. 2 MS. FLEMING: And then we're further down. 3 MR. JOHNSTON: So, you're saying each 4 department is -- you look at the county as a whole, and not, 5 like, a Road and Bridge Department, that they can bid things 6 up to 25 -- you know, if it's over $25,000, but you're 7 lumping in the Sheriff's Office and everyone else in that. 8 MR. ODOM: So, Rusty and I both buy over -- 9 both of us buy $25,000 worth of fuel. Then it has to be a 10 formal bid, you're saying? 11 MS. FLEMING: (Nodded.) 12 MR. JOHNSTON: Combined. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What the law says. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: We've never done that before. 15 MR. ODOM: We bid -- we get three bids each 16 time, but we, say, go fill up our tanks. And that -- 17 MS. FLEMING: And that doesn't meet the 18 formal bidding requirements for over $25,000. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're really getting 20 three quotes. 21 MR. ODOM: Yeah. 22 MS. REILLY: We have two contracts in place; 23 we have one in place for our Sheriff's Department at a 24 central fueling station that they go to and fuel, and then 25 we have another contract with a different company for our 14 1 Road and Bridge that delivers to, you know, three different 2 precinct barns to do that. So, we have two contracts. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Two separate contracts, 4 two separate bids? 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But you bid both of 6 them, because the aggregate -- well, in fact, each of yours 7 will be well over $25,000. 8 MS. REILLY: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But your reading, I 10 think, would be the same if you have an aggregate, even if 11 you had two -- if you were exactly the same, the way you are 12 right now, and say one was 15 and one was -- another was 15. 13 You would have to bid it, is what you're saying. 14 MR. ODOM: Operating supplies, all those line 15 items would have to -- the same thing that Glenn's got, or 16 Rusty's got. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: Buying tires. 18 MR. ODOM: Tires. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That may be a little 20 short. 21 MS. FLEMING: There's a lot of items that you 22 can't identify. 23 MR. ODOM: We get free room and meals? 24 MS. FLEMING: But, there are a lot of items 25 that you can identify that you -- that you buy one commodity 15 1 of the same type. And -- and we group medical supplies, 2 office supplies, janitorial supplies, those -- those things 3 that we can readily tell. Printing. I'm just going blank 4 on all the things we bid. We have a lot of contracts out 5 there, but it -- copy machines, all the road materials, and 6 go through formal bidding. But -- 7 MR. ODOM: For that, we do -- the road 8 materials and all, we bid, except if it was a single source, 9 like cold mix, then you don't -- it's not necessary to bid 10 that. If we have another supplier which may be coming on 11 line, then we have to go to the formal bid as far as cold 12 mix. 13 MS. FLEMING: Do you present that as a 14 Commissioners Court -- 15 MR. ODOM: Yes, that's a formal bidding 16 through -- 17 MS. FLEMING: No, the exemption. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Beth? 19 MR. ODOM: Pardon me. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: The question is, your single 21 source, if you come to Commissioners Court and got that 22 exempted. 23 MR. ODOM: Yes. 24 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, we bid -- it was only 25 one bidder all the time. 16 1 MS. FLEMING: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you or others in 3 your department responsible for developing specs, the 4 specifications of certain items? Tell us a little bit about 5 that. 6 MS. FLEMING: Okay. We work real closely 7 with our departments. We have them give us their 8 requirements, because it's real easy with counties, the 9 competition between counties. We -- we solicit specs from 10 other places and -- and make sure what everybody else is 11 doing, so we don't have to rewrite every set of specs. 12 There's a good county network, and you can get specs real 13 easy, but -- I'm sure you'll probably do that with Road and 14 Bridge's, too. But -- but we have -- at this point, I have 15 nine people in my department, but I can refer back when we 16 first started, it was one or two people. Then we had to 17 stop and actually write those specs. But, the departments 18 give you the requirements and the actual specifications, but 19 it's up to the purchasing agent to make sure that they're 20 competitive, that they're not restrictive and that they go 21 through all the legal requirements and that they come 22 through court to have that awarded. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would apply to 24 service contracts? 25 MS. FLEMING: Yes, mm-hmm. 17 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What you would expect 2 from the service provider? 3 MS. FLEMING: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And under what 5 conditions? 6 MS. FLEMING: Yes. 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 MR. ODOM: May I ask, how do you do your -- 9 your maintenance, your shop? You know, the other -- what 10 we've talked about really doesn't bother me. What really 11 bothers me is my shop and being able to get parts very 12 quickly, because time is money -- 13 MS. FLEMING: Right. 14 MR. ODOM: -- to me. 15 MS. FLEMING: Right. 16 MR. ODOM: That's how I get things done. 17 MS. FLEMING: Let me tell you what we do on 18 the bidding end, because there's a lot of parts that you 19 can't identify what you're buying through the year, so we do 20 have a contract with Napa that we bid out. Napa happens to 21 have our current contract for auto parts, but it doesn't 22 address all the big vehicle parts. There is a section of 23 the law that if it's -- if it's parts that you can't 24 anticipate, or you -- you know, you don't -- you can't plan 25 for them for the year, those aren't some that you would 18 1 count in your regular supplies. So, we don't bid those 2 items, unless -- sometimes we've had motor grader repairs 3 over -- back when it was 15, over $15,000, and we do have to 4 do that. But let me let Donna tell you what we've set up to 5 make it real quick and easy for our those departments 6 that -- that need things right away, our mechanics and our 7 facilities people. 8 MS. REILLY: We have, like she said, a 9 contract with our auto supplier, which is Napa. And, 10 because I don't know what parts go on what or what size they 11 need or whatever, they don't even send over what they need. 12 They send the requisition over saying that they need -- 13 sometimes even an open-ended requisition, which -- you know, 14 with not to exceed a certain amount of money. 15 MR. ODOM: Mm-hmm. 16 MS. REILLY: We send them back the number and 17 they'll go get it. But, what it is, is we have a -- an 18 arbitrary list of parts on our contract with percentage off 19 or plus cost or something like that on our contracts, and so 20 we don't even call and ask about the pricing or anything 21 like that. So, if they know exactly what they want, they'll 22 just write down what it is they want, we'll give them a 23 number. Once they get the part, they'll give us the price 24 back for us to enter it into a P.O. 25 MR. ODOM: So, you issue the P.O.'s? 19 1 MS. REILLY: Right, P.O. numbers. 2 MR. ODOM: And the department would keep 3 that -- the totals of expenditures, or do I have to 4 duplicate the same thing as I do now? The Auditor gets -- 5 you know we have a fresh count running all the time, that if 6 I pull it up on a computer, I know where I'm at. Other than 7 what the Auditor gives me, something that's 30 days old. 8 So, how do y'all do it? How do you keep up and do -- 9 MS. FLEMING: We're online, so every time we 10 enter one, it encumbers funds, takes it out of the budget. 11 If you don't have a system set up that way, then I would say 12 you -- for your own sake, you'd probably want to go ahead 13 and track it. 14 MR. ODOM: So we would have to be networked 15 to the master computer. Is that what you do? 16 MS. FLEMING: No. If -- when the Purchasing 17 Department enters that P.O. on, if -- if you have the 18 financial management system, it should -- it should 19 automatically encumber those funds. I mean, our departments 20 are just this year connected to our main computer. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The County also has the 22 same computer system we have; is that correct? 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It would be as 24 though -- 25 MS. FLEMING: Not for financial. 20 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It is the same. It's 2 the same step that's taken when Tommy now enters the -- his 3 office now enters that stuff into our computer system; it 4 encumbers the funds. The funds become encumbered as of that 5 moment when it's in there. 6 MR. ODOM: Once we have the bill, see, we do 7 the same thing; we enter it on our computer, and we know 8 before it goes to Tommy where our balance is running. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Exactly. 10 MS. FLEMING: And you may want to continue 11 that. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You may want to track 13 that, just for your own edification. But, that -- you don't 14 have to worry about that. Once that's entered by Tommy, the 15 funds are encumbered and you've already executed the 16 purchase order. What -- what this is -- what this does, 17 though, is that if we -- and this is the reason we've talked 18 about, one option would be to start small with a purchasing 19 agent working out of the Auditor's office, to keep the legal 20 stuff straight and make sure we're bidding what we're 21 supposed to bid, et cetera. But, really, the process that 22 we would have in the initial stages would be the step that 23 Tommy now takes, to enter in your purchase order amount, and 24 that person would do that. 25 MR. ODOM: What happens -- she alluded to 21 1 this point when it's over $15,000. What do we do? Do we 2 have to wait two weeks before we go to the Court to get 3 permission to go out to a formal bid, or do you have it 4 right then? 'Cause it's going to take two weeks to open a 5 bid, formal bid. Are you saying that my piece of equipment 6 sits for two weeks and a whole crew's -- I only have 3-man 7 crews. 8 MS. FLEMING: You're talking about after 9 you've already spent a lot on small parts? 10 MR. ODOM: Let's say I have a part that may 11 run $15,000 or more. Let's say it runs $2,000, and my -- 12 you know, where is that limit that I say, "Frank, you know, 13 I got a part here that -- we ran this down; it's $2,500 over 14 here." "Oh, that's over your $1,000 limit. We've got to go 15 to a bid." 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, that's not -- no, 17 because if it's one of those things like a -- a 18 one-of-a-kind item or few-of-a-kind, I think is the way they 19 call it, one-of-a-kind or few-of-a-kind, then that's exempt 20 from the bidding process. 21 MR. ODOM: So, I can say I need it, I can go 22 buy it, but if it's over $15,000, or if it's over -- 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Twenty-five. 24 MS. FLEMING: In this process, it would be 25 $25,000. 22 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If it's over $25,000. 2 MR. ODOM: If it's over $25,000. 3 MS. FLEMING: You've got to stop, because the 4 law says you have to bid it or exempt it. And we do exempt 5 some of our large machine purchasing, because there's only 6 one Caterpillar or there's only one John Deere; that's the 7 only place that can do it. We run an exemption through 8 those, and we -- you know that it's moved to $25.000. I 9 don't know if we had them -- we had quite a few over 10 $15,000. 11 MR. ODOM: Yes, you can drop $15,000 in a 12 heartbeat. 13 MS. FLEMING: We can get it on the very next 14 agenda and exempt it -- those. 15 MR. ODOM: And y'all would take care of this? 16 I wouldn't have to worry; I don't have to go bald-headed any 17 more than I am right now? 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You would put the 19 requirement in, and then the purchasing agent would -- 20 MS. REILLY: We would take it to 21 Commissioners Court for approval. 22 MR. ODOM: What about the fueling and things 23 like that, if we centralized, for Rusty and -- you know, 24 these are the things that always -- they've never been 25 addressed in my yard, or -- or Glenn here. I mean, Glenn's 23 1 already being taken care of now, but how do you do this for 2 fuel? You have a different fuel island for the Sheriff's 3 Department? Or do we have a centralized -- 4 MS. FLEMING: Do you have a central fuel now, 5 or where does the Sheriff's Department fuel? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: At convenience stores. 7 MS. FLEMING: Well, we wouldn't have -- 8 before we had our central fueling station, that's what we 9 did too. And -- and they just fueled, because we didn't 10 have any way to do that. Well, no, we did bid a local 11 vendor, and at his site -- 12 MS. REILLY: At his site, we had fuel cards 13 for them. 14 MS. FLEMING: You know, we have a bid for 15 maintenance facilities with our own tanks. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The problem is I got to 17 have it 24 hours. 18 MS. FLEMING: We had that, too. We had a key 19 system or something, but I forgot about that. 20 MR. ODOM: And a centralized fuel island 21 would have to have -- Rusty's 24 hours a day. How do y'all 22 do that? Do they -- do you run the yard out of the Road and 23 Bridge? Is that where you -- 24 MS. REILLY: We have our own vehicle 25 maintenance facilities that's got our central fuel. 24 1 MS. FLEMING: They have the cards. 2 MS. REILLY: They open the gates and stuff. 3 The Sheriff and I talked about this the other day. 4 MS. FLEMING: Did you? 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think, too, you 6 would see that there's probably several ways that could be 7 worked. With a lockable, 24-hour station somewhere, where 8 you would have -- your people would have a key to it. But 9 those are the details that I think a purchasing agent would 10 work out. It would look -- they would bring to us, "Here 11 are the options." We have -- we can contract for all of our 12 fuel, and the Sheriff's Department would get theirs this way 13 and Road and Bridge would get theirs this way. Or Option B 14 would be to do it slightly differently. So, that's what the 15 purchasing agent does, is to work out the options for those 16 kind of things and bring it to the Court -- or to the 17 department head, probably, first, and then if it's a thing 18 that requires our approval, then the Court would approve it 19 and we would press on. I think that's what's -- that would 20 be the beauty of having someone with that expertise to go 21 talk to other counties; "How do you do it?" Just as Beth 22 and Donna have indicated. 23 MS. FLEMING: A factor for Commissioners 24 Court, too, one person's kind of looking out for those 25 things. Just real quick on the parts and things, we -- we 25 1 set up fax machines -- and I don't know if you've got 2 several barns. We've got three in operation now; even 3 though we're centralized, we have three locations. And, 4 also, our Facilities and our Sheriff's Departments, they fax 5 us requisitions, and -- and then we look at them. We do not 6 try to presume to know what that mechanic needs for that 7 vehicle. We don't try to presume what the Sheriff's Office 8 needs, as far as what type of handcuffs or -- or whatever, 9 you know, needs to be done. We expect them to know what 10 they want, and then we look at it as far as pricing and best 11 value. We do source a lot of things, and the more people I 12 have, the easier that is to do. 13 But, I gave you some information -- one of 14 the last things in your handout is how to obtain quotes. 15 What I do is I train my departments on how to get quotes, 16 how to get them legally and how to get the best price and 17 fill out the paperwork correctly. And then, that way, when 18 those quotes come in to me, I know that they've received 19 three quotes, they didn't pit the buyers -- or the vendors 20 against each other and those kind of things, and I've got 21 three good quotes. And, we issue purchase orders to the 22 three low quotes -- or to the lowest quote and go ahead and 23 just issue a number and get it right back to them. 24 Donna's -- the departments she works with are the Sheriff's 25 Office, the Road and Bridge, and the Operations. I have 26 1 another buyer that happens to work on everything else; she 2 used to do all of them. But when those come in, that's our 3 priority, is to get them back, because we know they're 4 operational items; they're things that you have to do to 5 keep going. 6 But, the thing that we do that helps that 7 process is set up those annual bids so that we have a 8 contract to buy for. We don't have to get three quotes; I 9 know that the guy down the road has the best quotes. We 10 also set up P.O.'s for local hardware stores, small stores, 11 so that when they need to go get five screws for whatever 12 they're doing -- I mean, I know how these work -- that they 13 have already -- they already have a monthly P.O. and they 14 don't have to call us, and that information goes to the 15 Auditor and becomes a purchase order once it gets there. 16 Yes, sir? 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. So you just -- I think 18 you've got to where I'm -- my question was. I've got a guy 19 painting a wall; he's out of paintbrushes and he needs some 20 drywall screws. Does he have to stop and go to the 21 purchasing agent and say, "Hey, I need to run down to Wally 22 World to pick up these things"? 23 MS. FLEMING: If there's not already been 24 something set up in place to take care of something like 25 that, yes, he does. Because if you -- once you centralize 27 1 your purchasing, everything has to be authorized by the 2 Purchasing Department. Everything has to be authorized. 3 But, you can do that by a phone call, you know, issuing that 4 purchase order and letting them make a log of it, or you can 5 have some process in place for Walmart. And we do that, 6 $300 a month for Walmart for that department, so that when 7 they are out of something, they can go get it. And that's 8 real typical for most county purchasing departments. They 9 do set up small accounts in different places so that people 10 can take care of it. 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: That is sensible, what you're 12 saying. 13 MS. FLEMING: Yes. 14 MR. HOLEKAMP: Common practice. 15 MS. FLEMING: Yes. 16 MS. REILLY: Also, if they don't have the 17 monthly P.O. set up, then they can call the purchasing agent 18 and/or send the requisition over with an amount not to 19 exceed, so if he wants paintbrushes and he needs these 20 screws and he needs this, but he doesn't want to go spend 21 the time to get the pricing on each one of them to put on 22 the requisition, he can send over the requisition that says 23 "Not to exceed $100," and put on there what he's going 24 after. You know, so he won't come back with a color TV. 25 But just, you know, up to that amount, and that's authorized 28 1 for him to get, you know, the screws, the paintbrushes, or 2 whatever. Then, when he gets the total price, then he'll 3 send it back over to us, we'll put it on the P.O. and 4 encumber the money. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This other thing you hit 6 on just a little bit. Say there is a certain type -- and I 7 won't get into it, but a brand, okay, that is -- that, you 8 know, is so much better, you know, than this other brand, 9 especially when you get handcuffs and things like that, 10 where some of them freeze up. If we put on that purchase 11 order we need to purchase this type of handcuff, you know, 12 this brand name, are y'all -- is the Purchasing Agent at 13 that time then going to throw that part out and just get the 14 lowest prices they can get, and we all end up with, you 15 know, equipment that ain't worth two cents? 16 MS. FLEMING: I'll tell you how I try to do 17 it. I'm not going to say that that won't happen, because I 18 think that that can happen, but our goal is to try to get 19 what they're asking for. And if it's not a bid situation, 20 I'll try to find other vendors that sell that same brand. 21 And, if it's law enforcement, you've got your Gall's and 22 your Law Enforcement Equipment; you can find those sources, 23 if you got the best price there. But -- but we don't try to 24 do that. And especially on low-dollar items, it's not -- I 25 can spend two days or even two hours of my time finding a 29 1 better price, and I've overspent that item $20, $30 for what 2 I saved. So, we try to focus on the larger items and let 3 the smaller items -- it's to everyone's advantage, even your 4 advantage, that you don't try to source too much on real 5 small-dollar items, because then you're spending personnel 6 time that could be used on something else. But -- but the 7 higher dollar it gets, if you can prove that they're equal 8 items -- I mean, your purchasing agent would be able to 9 determine that. But -- 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, on those. 11 MS. FLEMING: -- they'll work with your 12 departments and call back and say, "Is this acceptable?" 13 MR. ODOM: How does Denton do their 14 materials? We -- low bid may not be low bid because of the 15 location and the freight. 16 MS. FLEMING: Yeah. And there is an 17 exception -- 18 MR. ODOM: We try to spread ours out to the 19 different vendors and -- and we do not have true gradation 20 at all in our material, but we try to do that, because if 21 we're working in an area, there's the freight and time to 22 haul that material to the job, if it's seal coat or 23 whatever. So, how do y'all handle that? 24 MS. FLEMING: We -- we now centralize ours. 25 We used to do it, you know, four corners, but now we do one 30 1 bid, and we consider the City of Denton as our center point. 2 But, we give them how much we calculate it costs us to -- to 3 drive every -- cost per ton, per mile. Right? 4 MS. REILLY: Mm-hmm. 5 MS. FLEMING: So, if it's -- of course, on 6 delivered, we take low bid, but if we have to go pick up the 7 material, then we figure what it costs from our site to 8 their site, round-trip, and we calculate that in the cost, 9 based on -- if we put in there 40,000 tons of this item, we 10 calculate every -- how much tons it -- trips it will take to 11 bring that to Denton County, and we calculate that in the 12 cost. 13 MR. ODOM: So, you use -- if we bid it, then 14 you're saying we would use Kerrville as a central point, and 15 the freight from those vendors is how you're going to find 16 out who's low bid, even though -- 17 MS. FLEMING: Not delivered price, no. 18 Your -- your cost. The delivered low bid to you, 19 regardless. 20 MR. ODOM: That's f.o.b. their plant, I 21 understand that. 22 MS. FLEMING: Right. 23 MR. ODOM: But that's where we do it, is that 24 we look at the location for freight, because the low bid 25 f.o.b. plant may not be low bid, because it's out here by 31 1 Joe Drymala's out here in Comfort, or it may be at 479 out 2 there, that I need some material out there. 3 MS. FLEMING: That's why we figure that -- 4 that cost per ton, per mile, 'cause that's the County's cost 5 to go pick up that material; we add it to their cost. 6 Donna's got some good sample specs on that -- or some specs 7 on that if you want to see how we've worded that, but you 8 wouldn't necessarily have to do it to Kerrville. If you've 9 got three sites, you could break it up in sections in your 10 bid and have -- have each one so that you've got your sites 11 closest. We just do it that way 'cause our Road 12 Superintendent wanted to centralize it in one spot, one 13 contract. But, before that, we had them at all four, and 14 you can do it in sections in your bid. We're doing it that 15 same way, I think. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question 17 with regard to the budgetary process. Does -- in the 18 purchasing department scenario, does your -- is your budget 19 one that just maintains the cost of your particular 20 department, or is your budget one that -- that encompasses 21 everything that is purchased, goods and services? 22 MS. FLEMING: Mine -- my operational 23 department -- my operational costs for my department, my 24 personnel, my office supplies, is all that I have control 25 of. 32 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 2 MS. FLEMING: Now, I will tell you that I 3 know in some counties, their capital items, they lump those 4 in one budget, and then that purchasing agent buys from that 5 budget. We -- we don't do it that -- that way. I know 6 there's a lot of counties that do, but I don't think they do 7 for anything but capital. And, that purchasing agent does 8 buy from what's -- whatever the Court's allocated in that 9 fund; that's what they buy that year. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, a department head 11 or elected official will continue to budget as they do now 12 for goods and services, a dollar amount in their budget? 13 MS. FLEMING: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And your department 15 then takes those and uses them? 16 MS. FLEMING: They still have control over 17 that. You know, the purchasing agent doesn't have control 18 over any budget except for the pencils I buy in my office. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The operation of your 20 office. 21 MS. FLEMING: Right. Right. 22 MR. ODOM: The funding for your department 23 comes from where? 24 MS. FLEMING: Just from General Fund, 25 Commissioners Court. 33 1 MR. ODOM: From general revenue? 2 MS. FLEMING: Mm-hmm. 3 MR. ODOM: Road and Bridge unitized system 4 doesn't fund that? 5 MS. FLEMING: No. No 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: We may think of a way, 7 though, Leonard. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. We're working 9 on that. 10 MS. FLEMING: They're going to take your 11 money; you better be quiet. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I hadn't thought about 14 that. That's a great idea. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Donna, can you talk a 16 little bit about county size and what -- try to find a 17 county that's our population, roughly, which is 40,000 -- 18 40,000 or 50,000? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: While Beth is looking 20 that up, I would -- you know, I think that -- that you hit, 21 Beth, on a very good point just a minute ago when you said 22 that what the purchasing agent does, and which all the 23 department heads here do now, is that you're really always 24 looking for the best value. It's not necessarily the low 25 bid; it's the best value for the dollar. And, in fact, we 34 1 had a good example of that on our computer buying, 'cause 2 we -- we had some bids from some people who might have been 3 able to bring those computers through the door, but there's 4 no way they could have serviced anything. They couldn't 5 have installed them; they wouldn't have gotten them running. 6 So, those bids -- even though there were lower, we didn't 7 have to accept them, because they couldn't do the job, 8 really, as it was spec'd. So, it's best value that we're 9 looking for and that the purchasing agent looks for, not 10 just the low bid, quote, unquote. 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: And I'll address Larry's 12 comments. And I understand the objective behind the 13 purchasing agent, but I think it's -- I think one of the 14 things that we need to look at is qualifications of a 15 purchasing agent, obviously, and understanding as to what 16 equipment works and what doesn't. It's going to be very, 17 very important, you know. It's not always your low bid, 18 especially in equipment. Leonard -- and I know he knows 19 this. You can buy some foreign-made equipment, but we're 20 going to have to go across the water to get parts or 21 somebody to work on them, so how can that be the best 22 purchase? Even though they will be substantially less in 23 initial purchase. So, the Purchasing Agent is going to have 24 to be somebody that relies on some other people's -- 25 MS. FLEMING: You're absolutely right, that's 35 1 the only way they can do it. There's no way the purchasing 2 agent can know what tractor to buy, what jail products to 3 buy, you know. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: Right. 5 MS. FLEMING: They buy things for the 6 District Clerks and everybody else, so they have to rely on 7 that input. 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. 9 MS. FLEMING: Now, specifically, on your 10 question, on things that we know have to be serviced that we 11 have to take them places, we put "must be within a radius," 12 and that's legal to do. That service must be within a 13 radius, and you can say that. 14 MR. HOLEKAMP: Certain amount of time? In a 15 timely fashion? 16 MS. FLEMING: Yeah. I don't know how you can 17 quantify that. You have to be able to quantify it, but if 18 it costs you to take something there and back -- 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah. 20 MS. FLEMING: -- you can certainly put -- 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. 22 MS. FLEMING: -- that it must be -- service 23 area must be within -- we use the metroplex area. 24 MS. REILLY: We're using 100 miles right now, 25 within 100 miles to service and parts. 36 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: That's reasonable. 2 MS. FLEMING: And the 100 miles includes all 3 of the John Deere, Caterpillar -- I mean, all of our major 4 trucks, because those are our big-dollar items, and we make 5 sure that we have someone in that area. Because Abilene may 6 have a lower bid on their item, but I'm not going to buy 7 from Abilene if I have to take it there and service it. 8 Now, your vehicles, your cars, your pickups and those 9 things, every dealer is required to service that vehicle, so 10 you can't use it in that case, but you can on some -- 11 some -- 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: Tractors. 13 MS. FLEMING: -- tractors and heavy 14 equipment. 15 MS. REILLY: Heavy equipment. 16 MR. ODOM: On your local vendors, the better 17 buy -- I don't find them giving government discounts, 18 because they're not -- they're not qualified. Only certain 19 vendors can -- can sell the trucks, you know, like State 20 Purchasing. You have to be on that -- or the 21 Houston-Galveston area is a good way. But, local vendors 22 can't even come close to the stuff I buy through State 23 Purchasing out of Austin there. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But you can have the 25 truck serviced here, too, after you buy it. 37 1 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir, under warranty. Yes. 2 MS. FLEMING: We're doing the same thing. 3 MR. ODOM: But, to give that out to the 4 people, we're not getting the best buy by local dealers at 5 all, trying to purchase through them. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 7 MS. REILLY: Well, on heavy equipment, it 8 wouldn't be. Also, if you've got a deal up in Abilene that 9 can sell you the piece of equipment, but they also have a -- 10 somebody that services it in Dallas, you know, they can -- 11 MR. ODOM: Well, but normally they're -- 12 heavy equipment's going to have a radius -- they have a 13 sales area. I wouldn't be going there, 'cause they couldn't 14 sell to me. San Antonio, Austin, and -- normally be San 15 Antonio. 16 MS. REILLY: I was using our Denton area, 17 so -- 18 MR. ODOM: No, we -- that's not a problem 19 here. 20 MS. FLEMING: And we buy all the State 21 H.G.A.C. when we need to, and sometimes, like our patrol 22 vehicles, we bid them and we usually can get those prices, 23 but they're not local vendors. 24 MR. ODOM: No. 25 MS. FLEMING: There's somebody, you know, 38 1 100, 200 miles away that just happened to bid. They beat 2 our local vendors, but that's -- that's the way it works. 3 But I don't care if I'm saving money, so -- I know that 4 isn't what y'all want to hear, as far as what my job is. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: A couple items. When -- where 6 departments would write a specification and you -- you bid 7 it, and there would be a lot of bidders who may or may not 8 meet those, is that -- does the department sit down with you 9 and review those before you accept them? 10 MS. FLEMING: Yes. 11 MR. JOHNSTON: Not just take the low number? 12 MS. FLEMING: Yes. But what you want to do 13 is, up front, make sure that you get the item that you want, 14 but that it's not restrictive. There may be comparable 15 items, but there may also be less quality items that you 16 want to make sure that you've written them out. You can set 17 a level in there, and there may be two or three brands, or 18 even one brand that five or six people sell. But, you've 19 got to -- if you do that up front, you don't want to get 20 yourself into a situation where that low bid isn't anything 21 that you want, and you've got to try to justify not giving 22 it to them. You want to get your specs right when you start 23 so you don't have to justify not awarding to the low bid. 24 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. 25 MS. FLEMING: We work with the departments on 39 1 the specs and the award. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: In all the bidding we've done 3 since I've been on the Court, we accept the bids and we 4 refer them back to the department for evaluation. I don't 5 see that changing. We're going to bid things -- we're going 6 to bid things, and the department heads are going to work 7 with the purchasing agent, just like they do now on their 8 own, to advise the Court as to what they think are the best 9 bids. It's a value thing; it's not necessarily a dollar 10 thing. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think, really, kind of 12 bottom line is what you had mentioned a while back, is if 13 this County's got a total of a $7 million budget, what we 14 really need to find out is what could this county, even in a 15 ballpark estimate, save by having a purchasing department, 16 and is it worth it? And, evidently, you couldn't answer. 17 MS. FLEMING: Yeah. And, you know, you -- I 18 don't know how we could. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, if I could ask -- 20 you just came in a little bit late. We were talking earlier 21 about gasoline purchase, and the County aggregate for 22 gasoline far exceeds $15,000. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: $25,000. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $25,000. It probably 25 exceeds $50,000. But, anyway, it's something that we don't 40 1 bid formally right now. From your standpoint, you know, 2 one, if we're not doing it properly, you know, why doesn't 3 an audit or somewhere -- why isn't that caught? I mean, 4 you're familiar with purchasing law and kind of watch that 5 side of it for us. If we're violating in -- in that area, 6 if that's a -- if the way we're doing it is not legal, why 7 hasn't it been caught up somewhere? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: I think probably that -- that 9 those expenditures are so widely disbursed throughout the 10 system that -- and they're paid -- and they're expended -- 11 well, the -- when the dollars -- the types of dollars that 12 are used to expend for -- for those goods, I don't think 13 you -- I don't think you'd ever find -- I don't think you'd 14 ever see that. I mean, I don't -- I think an audit is not 15 designed to -- to look for those kind of things. And -- 16 MS. BARBEE: They questioned it this year; they 17 questioned me. They asked for specific cars and specific 18 vehicles and came to me to ask, you know, who -- how do we 19 get this? And then, by me trying to track down who knew 20 about it, I went to Mindy and found out the, like, Probation 21 Department or something would be through the State, and they 22 had their own money, so it wasn't under us. But, I kind of 23 got involved in that this year, and I didn't realize I was 24 going to be questioned as to where some of these things 25 were. 41 1 MR. ODOM: But I think what that purchase 2 is -- particularly, like, our trucks were State purchase, or 3 Houston-Galveston. 4 MS. BARBEE: Well, they questioned some of the 5 bids and that type of thing, but once they found out it was 6 through the State Purchasing, then they backed off. But, I 7 had to show somewhere in my records for the County Clerk 8 that, yes, this is what happened, this is what transpired. 9 But, I kind of tracked that down; I didn't know. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One thing that she's 11 asking is, like, with the Sheriff's Office -- Sheriff's 12 Office gasoline. As y'all approving bills this morning 13 showed, you know, it's well over $25,000 a year alone, and 14 why haven't we bid that out before in the aggregate? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That was brought to 16 the -- Commissioners Court requested the Sheriff's 17 Department to do that two years ago, and the Sheriff chose 18 not to. I mean, I -- we brought it up and she said no. 19 MR. ODOM: You know, and that's reason we bid 20 our -- we bid ours out, so that there wouldn't be any 21 question we did it on the basis of that, because there was 22 no formality, per se, and we took bids every time we'd go 23 out for that. And, like Tommy says, it's spread out. I 24 mean, it's -- it's not one vendor. It's not one contractor 25 for fencing over $15,000. It's fuel and -- and a legitimate 42 1 bid across-the-board that's recorded that we can go back in 2 the notes and show. And, it's -- it's been quite -- 3 MS. FLEMING: I think the difference is the 4 formal bidding, because we do bidding for under $25,000 on a 5 lot of items. But, I think it's whether or not it's over 6 $25,000, and then it goes through another process with the 7 advertising and everything. 8 MR. ODOM: Advertising. 9 MS. FLEMING: And that's -- I don't know. 10 You might want to look at it and see. But, without looking 11 at everything, I agree with the Auditor. Our lines are all 12 disbursed like that too. It's real hard to find -- I mean, 13 sometimes we'll be buying something and I'll be approving 14 P.O.'s, and I'll go, "It looks like we're buying a lot of 15 this," and we'll go add it up, and we're spending beaucoups 16 of money on something that we didn't even realize it, 17 because it's so many different departments ordering. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'd like to just back 19 up a minute and -- and because I think it's -- you've hit on 20 it. And -- but it's a very important point, particularly 21 for those of us that haven't worked under a purchasing agent 22 system. And, that is, back to conferring between the 23 department head and the purchasing agent -- I mean, it's not 24 something that the system -- if done right, it's not 25 something where you throw in a requisition and that's the 43 1 last you hear of it until this part or service or whatever 2 shows up at your door. The purchasing agent is the one that 3 will insist on a lot of communication with you, wanting to 4 know, is this what you really want? Is -- can we open up 5 this spec? 'Cause if we can open up the spec, we might get 6 a lower price. If we -- if it has to be this type, fine, 7 that's what we'll do. But -- so there's a lot of give and 8 take with the purchasing agent, particularly until they 9 learn your specific commodity or -- or service or whatever 10 it is. After they've done the same kind of contract two or 11 three times, they can -- they can anticipate what your needs 12 are. But, particularly at first, they're going to ask you a 13 million questions to make sure that they understand your 14 requirement. They're not going to try to write that 15 requirement for you. They're going to want you to have the 16 major input on that 'cause they don't want to buy something 17 that you can't use or don't need or whatever. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You started with Denton 19 County when they first started one, right? You said the 20 population may have about -- around 180,000? 21 MS. FLEMING: I think so. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Somewhere like that. It 23 was only one or two of y'all. In a county like this -- and 24 I'm going to fudge a little bit, I think, on population till 25 the census comes out -- but 55,000 or something, with -- 44 1 with the -- I don't know, what's the overall budget? Is 2 it -- $7 million is in your -- 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Seventeen million. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Seventeen million. In 5 your opinion, is it worth -- you know, and from what you've 6 seen, in your experience, for a county this size to have a 7 purchasing agent? 8 MS. FLEMING: Yes, I believe so. I believe 9 you will save money. Now, whether or not you'll pay the 10 purchasing agent's salary, I don't know how you quantify 11 that, because how do you measure what you didn't pay? 12 That's the hard thing. The other thing is -- is that it 13 keeps you legal. It keeps -- it protects not only 14 Commissioners Court, it protects each one of you from -- 15 from buying something that you perfectly thought was fine, 16 but somewhere down the line somebody said, "Why didn't you 17 bid gas? You've spent over $25,000." It's just -- it's a 18 way for somebody else to be checking on those things, and 19 that runs through that purchasing agent. They're 20 responsible for those things. I will say that there -- I'm 21 not responsible to make sure that everything goes right, 22 because there are things that each elected official is 23 responsible for, too. But, I just think there's a big 24 protection in there, and I believe you'll save money. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Beth, have any purchasing 45 1 departments been set up, or can they be set up, where only 2 the larger budget items go through the purchasing agent, but 3 the elected officials and department heads still have, 4 pretty much, autonomy on low-level purchases, up to a 5 certain point? 6 MS. FLEMING: The way the State statute's 7 written, it's different than cities, where cities can -- can 8 do that more, because they have a charter authority. But 9 with counties, once you centralize, you're centralized. 10 Everything must be authorized by the purchasing agent; every 11 item must be. Now, if you set it up under the Auditor, I'm 12 going to refer to the Auditor, 'cause I don't know exactly 13 if that's totally centralized, if the Auditor has someone 14 doing purchasing. I think you can set up the system that 15 you want under that. Is that right? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm not sure. I don't know. 17 MS. FLEMING: I know -- 18 MR. ODOM: The statutes do not give the 19 Auditor -- it describes it. It says the Auditor will not be 20 the purchasing agent, but he can purchase small items. 21 MS. FLEMING: Right. 22 MR. ODOM: Let me ask you a question. How -- 23 how does a purchasing agent run with the unitized system, a 24 unitized system under 47 statutes? Do y'all have that 25 system? 46 1 MS. FLEMING: Yes, we do. 2 MR. ODOM: How does that work? Is there 3 anything that's in contradiction, as Commissioner Letz was 4 saying right there? Because the 47 statutes are somewhat 5 different than a precinct, if what describes it -- that is 6 different. 7 MS. FLEMING: Everything for Road and Bridge 8 comes through the Purchasing Department. So, you know, it's 9 just the same as all the other departments. So, I don't -- 10 MR. JOHNSTON: Isn't there a statute that 11 says the County Engineer writes all the specs, does all that 12 up to a certain size, like a hundred and some thousand -- 13 MR. ODOM: Yeah. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: -- population? 15 MS. FLEMING: See, that doesn't affect me, so 16 I don't know. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: After that, it works with the 18 purchasing agent. 19 MR. ODOM: Works with the purchasing agent. 20 MS. FLEMING: See, we're large enough, I 21 don't know what that is. I'm sorry, I don't know. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think, to personally 23 answer your question, Jonathan, you can -- 24 MS. FLEMING: But the engineering specs, I 25 don't know that that would apply to everything else that's 47 1 bought. So, I don't know. 2 MR. ODOM: Now, it's not the argument that 3 the system doesn't work. I see that we probably are in 4 violation, not intentionally, of some things. 5 MS. FLEMING: Right. 6 MR. ODOM: Unintentionally. I asked him if 7 we got room and board already but -- you know, I do see -- 8 under the fuel, I can see -- I don't -- there's room for 9 improvement, certainly, there. And, you know, the 10 operations work, any -- everybody in here, as long as we can 11 do it -- some of these are not going to be as needed as what 12 we need to keep the operation going. Rusty's got to keep 13 his patrol cars going all the time. How do you do your 14 maintenance? How does Denton County do the maintenance? 15 MS. FLEMING: We have a maintenance barn now, 16 but before we did that, we bid out a cost-per-hour and 17 percentage on parts, and we awarded an annual contract, so 18 that I don't have to call somebody every time I need a 19 starter fixed or something. 20 MR. ODOM: We know that we're going to Napa. 21 MS. FLEMING: That vendor is -- any 22 contracts -- well, we did an actual garage, not just parts. 23 Now we have a parts contract, but before we had a garage, 24 and we had -- went to that vendor all year long. 25 MR. JOHNSTON: Labor. 48 1 MR. ODOM: What happened if that vendor was 2 out or couldn't get that specific item? 3 MS. FLEMING: Then we had provisions in the 4 contract that we were allowed to go somewhere else; we would 5 just find somebody that could do it, if they couldn't do it 6 in that time frame. 7 MR. ODOM: That's what's -- 8 MS. FLEMING: I would hope you'd look at the 9 Purchasing Agent not as a hindrance to your operation, but 10 as an assistance to your operation. Someone who can help, 11 you know, when you don't have time to find -- find a vendor 12 or whatever, they can call and get that for you and get some 13 more information, and be the contact person with other 14 purchasing agents around the state, and get sets of specs so 15 you don't have to sit down and start over with the full set 16 of specs. 17 MR. ODOM: May I ask -- maintenance. Now, 18 when you have a centralized maintenance, you're saying that 19 you take care of Road and Bridge also? 20 MS. FLEMING: No. No, they do their own. 21 MR. ODOM: They do their own, and then the 22 Sheriff's Department or Parks and Recreation or Building 23 Maintenance, they go to -- 24 MS. FLEMING: Vehicle Maintenance. 25 MR. ODOM: Vehicle Maintenance. 49 1 MS. FLEMING: Right. And we even have 2 separate contracts on our parts, because -- even all the 3 pickups for Road and Bridge, because of the way they travel, 4 it could be different than -- than for our central spot. 5 And, we do delivery with Napa, so it works really good. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Before you had your 7 central barn and everything, though, on your vehicle 8 maintenance, say, like, with the Sheriff's Office, if your 9 overall estimated, per-year, vehicle maintenance, as far as 10 repairs, is over $25,000, did y'all bid that too? 11 MS. FLEMING: Yeah, we did. We bid that 12 garage, but not only did it save us in the bidding on that, 13 it also made it easy to where they -- they didn't have to 14 call and get a P.O. They just drove their car down there, 15 got it fixed, and we were billed. The bills were checked 16 against the cost per hour; they had to show us what their 17 parts were and the percentage over, and we were set for a 18 full year. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How are we doing it 20 now, Sheriff? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just pretty close, but 22 mainly just about wherever we can get it fixed, is what 23 they're doing. They're just -- you know, they're taking 24 them primarily to one place, but it's kind of been wherever 25 they can get it fixed. 50 1 MS. FLEMING: When we first bid ours -- I'm 2 sorry. We -- when we bid it out, the same vendor that we'd 3 been going to with no contract dropped their price so 4 significantly, the cost per hour, we were just -- it was 5 amazing. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's been a hard thing. 7 Over the years, I've seen us use different garages 8 constantly around, which really isn't, probably, 9 appropriate, but you may have used one and it's fine. Then, 10 all of a sudden, it's taking them a week to get a car out, 11 you know. All of a sudden, the Sheriff's vehicle ended up 12 on the back burner for some reason, and it's -- you ended up 13 having to change, and it's just kind of been -- 14 MS. FLEMING: We had that, too, when we 15 centralized our facility. 16 MR. ODOM: Did you? 17 MS. FLEMING: That's a big job, though. 18 MR. ODOM: The cost-effectiveness, you found 19 that it was better to have that type of operation where, 20 say, gas or light-duty trucks and all could go to a 21 convenience store or vendors and be taken care of, other 22 than having this buildup of maintenance or -- into either a 23 new yard, or Road and Bridge being built up; it's more 24 cost-effective to do that than it was to go out and have the 25 oil changed and a lot of different things? 51 1 MS. FLEMING: We did a big study on that, how 2 much we were spending over several years. We divided how 3 much we spent on parts, how much we spent on labor. We 4 added our construction costs in, personnel costs -- we have 5 inmates working our barn -- and we calculated out how long 6 it would take us on what we saved to pay for our facility, 7 and then -- then the Commissioners Court agreed to build the 8 facility. And, all that worked really good till they came 9 back and asked for three or four more employees. But -- 10 but, we have grown. We've doubled in size. I'm not saying 11 that we still weren't saving money. My study didn't hold 12 out over that period of time, but our -- the work that came 13 in doubled at the same time we brought people in. I didn't 14 mean to imply that we weren't saving money. My study just 15 didn't hold out. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If I can, just for a 17 minute, go back to Jonathan's question, because he had a 18 good one, that maybe up to a certain amount, you could have 19 department heads and elected officials be responsible. 20 Still, I don't think we can do that under the -- I know we 21 can't under the purchasing agent statute, and I assume 22 that's what we would operate under, but I think even more 23 so, I don't think you want to, because there are enough ways 24 to simply tighten -- in very large counties, there's easy -- 25 there are easy enough ways to simplify those small 52 1 purchases, like with monthly P.O.'s or with in-place 2 contracts, where you just go execute or send the P.O. over 3 for a not-to-exceed price. There's plenty of ways to get 4 around, to make it simple to do. And, as a result, then 5 you've -- you've got the Purchasing Agent responsible for 6 all expenditures, which is what you're really driving for. 7 And I don't think you would want to exempt $100 and less 8 or -- you know, $1,000 and less. I just don't think you 9 want to do that. If you're going to commit to the system, I 10 think the law's got it right, that you ought to commit to it 11 all the way and then come up with good ways of making sure 12 that those -- those little, bitty purchases don't take the 13 same amount of time that some major, big equipment 14 replacement's going to take, 'cause that's obviously a form 15 of bid process and all that. But -- you can, but that's 16 workable. 17 MR. ODOM: Would we not be separate -- I'm 18 sorry, Commissioner, go ahead. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just wanted to 20 raise a question. The Judge had to go to a -- a juvenile 21 hearing, I think, for about a half hour, but we wanted for 22 you to expound a little bit, if you would, on how you phased 23 in your department. Take us from ground zero through the 24 phasing in, if you will. 25 MS. FLEMING: Okay. What we did was -- was 53 1 be just lenient at first. We didn't come in with a hard and 2 fast rule: "As of Monday, you know, no one can buy 3 anything; you have -- everything has to come through us." 4 We -- we did take serious that it was centralized and it had 5 to be authorized, so we did give some -- some big, open 6 P.O.'s to departments so that they could continue doing what 7 they needed to do. We did already have some contracts in 8 place, just like you do for some of your supplies and 9 things, and we continued on them. But, the one -- one thing 10 that we did not phase in at first was the Sheriff's Office 11 and Road and Bridge, because it was too much to bring in at 12 one time. We needed to get some processes in place, be able 13 to issue purchase orders efficiently and figure out the best 14 way to do that. And then, also, we had a new computer 15 system, and you know how that is; we wanted to make sure all 16 that was working. The Sheriff's Department came in real 17 quick after that; just after a few months, we went ahead and 18 got them online. We met with the people, told them, you 19 know, how to -- how we expected them to issue the 20 requisitions, and which were priority items and those kind 21 of things, and worked with the Sheriff's Office in getting 22 those. It was actually a year later before we brought in 23 Road and Bridge. 24 But, I will tell you we -- we did take it 25 seriously about issuing the purchase order; they had to call 54 1 and get a purchase order number before they ordered 2 anything. We had no paperwork, nothing signed in our 3 office, which I think was probably just an ease factor. I 4 don't know that that was totally legal, that we didn't have 5 something signed from them in our office, but that was in 6 the days before fax machines, and we had to wait on mail 7 trucks and those kind of things from the barns. But -- but 8 they would call, and we would issue purchase order numbers 9 so that they could buy what they needed to buy. And, they 10 may get one P.O. number for a month's worth of asphalt or 11 whatever they needed at the time. So, it was about a year 12 before we got everybody online, but then once we did, we 13 held another workshop with all the departments and said, 14 okay, we are totally centralized. Everything comes through 15 us. We will not pay for any -- the law says you cannot pay 16 for anything that was not authorized, and we take that real 17 serious also. But, we -- we said, "These are the processes 18 that we'll set up in order to make it happen easily for 19 those departments." 20 Then, after a year -- Donna probably came on 21 about this time -- that it wasn't -- things weren't working. 22 You know, we weren't getting what the mechanics needed, we 23 weren't getting things right, and we sat down and, "What are 24 we not doing right for you?" and we changed processes again. 25 It was a working -- procedural thing for several years to 55 1 get it down, to figure out the best way to do things. We -- 2 we found out about monthly P.O.'s after we'd been 3 operational for months, and found out we could do that on 4 small things. And it was authorized, because we authorized 5 them to use the vendor up to $500 for that month or 6 whatever. And, boy, that -- you know, Road and Bridge and 7 Sheriff's Office loved that, because that was something that 8 could keep them operational without calling me every time. 9 So, it was a -- it was an ongoing thing. It took a while 10 and it took a lot of communication to sit down and figure 11 out what works best for you. What are we doing that's not 12 working for you? You know, if we're not calling you back, 13 you know, or whatever needs to be done. We changed 14 procedures many times, and we've done it even a few years 15 ago, just again sat down and redid things. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Beth, it sounds like the 17 open P.O. is kind of what I was talking about on allowing a 18 certain discretion for them to do their purchasing. What 19 you're doing there -- like, say, office supplies. And, we 20 have a contract with Office Max and Office Depot, so you can 21 just give, like, a $1,000 open P.O. to the Tax Assessor, and 22 then she can -- till she spends $1,000, she doesn't have to 23 come back to you. 24 MS. FLEMING: Right. And that's -- whatever 25 procedures that you're comfortable setting up. But, with 56 1 that contract in place, yes, you can do that, 'cause it's 2 authorized; you've given a P.O. for that. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Beth, talk to us a 4 little bit about the purchase of food for the Sheriff's 5 Department and the maintenance of the jail. 6 MS. FLEMING: I'm not going to be able to 7 answer many questions about the purchase of food, 'cause 8 we -- we hire a service, and that service is responsible for 9 buying food. So, I'm sorry, I don't -- I've never done 10 that. We've only -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you serve catered 12 meals? 13 MS. FLEMING: We do that -- bid that service, 14 and we pay so much per meal, and they provide the food. So, 15 I've never had to buy food, and I'm glad. From what I 16 understand, it's a big headache. But, as far as -- what was 17 the other, the operation of the jail? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. Just -- I really 19 meant the food portion of the operation. Here when you're 20 talking janitorial supplies, of course, in the jail, they 21 may be totally different than what you're using at the 22 courthouse. 23 MS. FLEMING: Right. Right. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So all that's just kind 25 of taken into consideration. 57 1 MS. FLEMING: Kind of group our janitorial 2 supplies, but paper -- the toilet paper and things like that 3 at the jail are just astronomical, so -- 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 5 MS. FLEMING: I don't know how many inmates 6 you have. We have close to 900. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not near what y'all 8 have, thank goodness. 9 MS. FLEMING: In Dallas County or Harris 10 County, I can't imagine buying toilet paper for them. But, 11 they -- we have -- we set up contracts for that. And, 12 then -- then I don't know if we issue monthly or if they 13 order truckloads at a time. So, they do send a requisition. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: See, that changes day to 15 day, week to week, things like milk and bread and -- that 16 you're getting -- 17 MS. FLEMING: Right. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- just about daily. 19 MS. FLEMING: And that law -- like I said, 20 I'm really not even familiar with that law to call and get 21 three quotes on that. It has its own little law for buying 22 food, you know, in the purchasing statute. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Have we ever 24 considered a service? 25 MS. FLEMING: I think what you do is just -- 58 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I just wondered. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I haven't heard 3 anything from you. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Have we ever 5 considered a service to provide meals at the jail? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I think as far as 7 it ever got considered was maybe to the Sheriff's door a 8 time or two, but there -- there are companies that do that, 9 that come in, and it's kind of a catered-type meal, is what 10 it is. 11 MS. FLEMING: Our inmates work at -- 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're not bad, you 13 know, and they may be something worth looking into it in the 14 future, because they are -- meet the dietitian guidelines 15 and all that, so all your proper stuff is being served. 16 But -- 17 MS. FLEMING: A lot of responsibility on 18 that. They're insured, and you can calculate whether or not 19 that's cheaper by what you're paying now versus -- 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We can start saving 21 money out at the jail. 22 (Several people talking at once.) 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all, we have a court 24 reporter here who can only take one voice at a time. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Correct. 59 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, just to follow 2 up on that food, then, in bidding it, then you bid it out to 3 a service and they are -- their guideline is so many dollars 4 and cents per meal? 5 MS. FLEMING: We pay a set price per meal for 6 an annual period. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Back to the list you 8 provided, is that an inclusive list of the small counties, 9 or that's just an example? 10 MS. FLEMING: No. And, actually, I did this 11 for another county last fall, and I don't even know if I put 12 in -- I gave y'all my backup. I'm sorry, I don't know, but 13 I just looked in our directory that had purchasing agents, 14 our state directory for the counties, and found some close 15 that -- the county I was looking for was right at 50,000 16 too, so -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, you get to a point 18 there's, like, local economies in scale. You certainly get 19 to a point where your size definitely makes sense. 20 MS. FLEMING: Right. Right. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But where do you get 22 there? Where you make that step, is the question I've got 23 in my mind, and then how big you make that department going 24 in, or where, you know, you're going to end up going. 25 MS. FLEMING: That's a personal preference on 60 1 what works best for each county. It definitely is. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would think if we do 3 it, we'd start with one person, go from there. About like 4 you did for a much larger county, but I think we -- 5 MR. ODOM: But how big would the 6 department -- you know, how much of a bureaucracy would that 7 create? I mean, in the future. How -- where's it -- is 8 there limits that the Court's going to put on how big 9 something gets? I mean, the design of this thing is to save 10 money, not to grow. I mean, we're doing pretty 11 competitive -- I'll be as competitive as Denton, I guarantee 12 you. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: One of the things you 14 wouldn't want to -- for example, if we limited the Road and 15 Bridge Department to the level where it is right now, and 16 not grow that bureaucracy any more -- 17 MR. ODOM: I have -- if you look at my -- 18 Commissioner, you haven't been here -- not quite four years. 19 In nine years, my department's gotten less and less and 20 less, doing it with less people. And I believe in that. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 22 MR. ODOM: But there's a point that we're not 23 little any more; we're urban. Everybody drives Mercedes and 24 Cadillacs and -- and now they like -- 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: S.U.V.'s. 61 1 MR. ODOM: That's right, sir. They like nice 2 roads. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: My point is -- 4 MR. ODOM: We're going to get to the point 5 we're going to have to grow. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't think -- I 7 don't think we would go in limiting both the number of 8 people we have in the purchasing function, because -- and we 9 don't look at it -- I would not look at it strictly in the 10 beginning as a department or as any form of bureaucracy like 11 that. That it's a function, and we would have to implement 12 the function. We can probably do that in the beginning with 13 one person, and I see it, as for the size county we are and 14 the size of our budget now, that we can probably handle that 15 with a very small office. It may not ever get over two or 16 three, maximum. And that includes somebody to answer the 17 phone and take all these faxes from the Road and Bridge 18 Department asking for P.O.'s. 19 MR. ODOM: We do it now; Truby does that and 20 Iva does that. Everything we purchase is by a P.O. If it's 21 a pencil, it's a P.O. And that goes to the Auditor right 22 there. And, I -- I'm sure there's room for us to make some 23 improvement if we had the -- 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, see? And, in that 25 sense, you're ahead of the game already, because you -- you 62 1 already execute those purchase orders. Instead of going to 2 the Auditor's office, they'd go to the Purchasing Agent's; 3 that's the only difference you'd see. I mean, you wouldn't 4 see any difference. 5 MR. ODOM: Well, it -- I can see you have the 6 ability, if we pool everybody together, of maybe making some 7 cost savings, other than me fighting out there and somebody 8 else -- you know, if we put $17 million, we may have an edge 9 on people and save a little bit. I'm not opposed to it, 10 because I certainly -- you know, I -- I always -- I worry 11 about did I make -- you know, did you make a mistake? 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Having another -- 13 having another function that just is trying to do the same 14 thing you're doing, but from a slightly different point of 15 view, can be a big help, I think, to everybody. Not only 16 keeps you legal, but also maybe gets you a better price and 17 gets you the same product for a better price. 18 MR. ODOM: Same product. And, above all 19 that, there's not a question of what's out there and 20 integrity and so on, honesty of someone is questioned. I -- 21 that helps in that aspect. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Beth, do you have any 23 idea what -- if you're going with a -- a county relatively 24 our size, you're going to have to go with a pretty 25 knowledgeable person to start with; you can't just have a 63 1 clerk, one employee. What kind of salaries are we're 2 looking at for -- 3 MS. FLEMING: I just looked at the sheet I 4 gave you, and it has that column blank, but I think I mailed 5 you one that had it filled in, didn't I? 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't recall seeing 7 that chart. 8 MS. FLEMING: I have one with this filled in, 9 and I've grabbed this at the last minute, but I have one. 10 I'll -- I'm thinking -- I'm thinking that we're in the 30's, 11 but -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, there's one on 13 there that only was one, and that department is $39,000. 14 MS. FLEMING: And that's everything; that's 15 benefits and supplies and everything. That's not salaries. 16 So, I have that. I'm sorry, I will fax that to you. And 17 I'm sorry, it's kind of buried. 18 MR. ODOM: So, you're looking at $50,000 with 19 overhead and all for salary and everything for one person? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $40,000 to $45,000, 21 probably. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, $40,000, 23 $45,000. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would be my 25 guess. 64 1 MS. FLEMING: I do have some of the budgets 2 in here with salaries, but I'll find that for you. I'm 3 sorry. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Appreciate it. No 5 problem. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there anything that 7 would limit it from being -- I guess two questions. Can it 8 be combined with other counties, the purchasing department? 9 And, can you do it on a part-time -- part-time employee? Is 10 there any restriction against having part-time? 11 MS. FLEMING: There's not a restriction 12 against part-time. It's whether or not they'll be there 13 enough to do what you want them to do. And that -- I don't 14 know what the workload will be, but I don't think there's 15 anything for other counties. You can have joint Auditors; 16 specifically, it says that, but I don't think you can for a 17 purchasing agent. 18 MR. HOLEKAMP: You mean the government's 19 interlocal -- through interlocal agreements with other 20 government entities, they could not do purchasing centrally? 21 MS. FLEMING: Well, we can buy off of each 22 other's contracts, and we do that a lot, but I don't know if 23 you could actually hire a purchasing agent that would be 24 accountable -- 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: To other entities? 65 1 MR. JOHNSTON: Keep track and not mix funds 2 together. 3 MS. FLEMING: You want that purchasing agent 4 in your county, and not the one next to you, so that you 5 have priority, but I don't know that you can do that. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think the statute, 7 though, would keep you from doing that, because they have 8 to -- you know, they're hired by the District Judges. 9 There's -- I think that would really be tough to work. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But Tommy's the Auditor 11 for two counties. 12 MS. FLEMING: Yes, but that's not the same 13 statute. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But he's under 15 the District Judges. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: Didn't say you can't, either. 17 MR. ODOM: That's right. What about the City 18 of Kerrville? Do they not have a purchasing agent? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think they do. 20 MR. ODOM: What's the possibility or thought 21 of maybe looking that the avenue, if you were looking at one 22 person to represent -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think both the City 24 of Kerrville and KISD have purchasing -- 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would see -- I would 66 1 see that happening, as happens in a lot of -- of 2 metropolitan areas, where the purchasing agent for a 3 municipality and for the County will often work with each 4 other to see what's going on, and, "Hey, how did you get 5 your last load of asphalt?" Or whatever. You know, because 6 we're having a little problem; I see them talking and 7 working, and if they're -- there could even be something 8 there where it says, "Gosh, the best thing we can find is 9 off H.G.A.C.," and maybe that's -- and it saves your 10 purchasing agent some time, but I don't see melding those 11 unless you go to a total metro government, which we're a 12 long way from. 13 MR. ODOM: Oh, yes. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: At this point. 15 MS. FLEMING: But you can certainly 16 cooperate. We bid a lot of contracts together. And, 17 because we're bigger, we have most of the small cities in 18 our area buy all of their asphalt off our contracts, all -- 19 everything. We just put a paragraph in there that cities 20 and school districts within our county can buy off this 21 contract, so when we award it, they buy directly themselves; 22 they don't go through me, but we're really helping all the 23 small cities and counties. And then we jointly do some with 24 the City of Lewisville or City of Denton, because they're 25 large, and we buy things together. We group all of our 67 1 items together and do it. There's also a lot of cooperation 2 between the State and H.G.A.C. I don't know if you're 3 buying computers, which is a request I have. There's a lot 4 of avenues for all those things, too, that -- that can be 5 purchased. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, see, there are 7 -- the savings would be very hard to quantify, for example. 8 For example, Lewisville or whoever, and you've aggregated 9 your total requirement for a much bigger buy. We might save 10 a tremendous amount of money, and we could really help -- if 11 we authorized that same kind of thing, we could really help 12 out the I.S.D.'s and -- and smaller taxing entities by 13 allowing them to buy through our contracts. 14 MR. ODOM: That -- would Comfort and places 15 like that be able to do that, even though they're in another 16 county, but they are a school district in our area? 17 MS. FLEMING: If I write it in your spec 18 somewhere where those people can buy, then you have to have 19 an interlocal agreement to purchase off each other's 20 contracts. So, you have to have it in your specs before you 21 award, so that all vendors know that they have an 22 opportunity to sell not just to the County, but to someone 23 else, and then you have to have an interlocal agreement 24 between -- but we have interlocals that are continuous until 25 they expire with all the cities so that they can buy off of 68 1 our contracts. 2 MR. ODOM: And, when y'all set this up with 3 one person in Denton, how long did it take to you augment -- 4 I know in a year, you said you had the Sheriff's Department, 5 but one person started this, and then it grew from there? 6 MS. FLEMING: We had four people the next 7 year. 8 MR. ODOM: Four people? 9 MS. FLEMING: You know, we had 186,000 and 10 then moved, like, to 250,000, like, in a year. I mean, we 11 went real fast. 12 MR. ODOM: But it took those four people -- 13 what I'm saying, we're not going to have anything like that 14 explosive, but one person. Would you say it would take six 15 months? Or three months, they could get their feet on the 16 ground and start running with us? Before the next -- our 17 budget starts in October, and we start in May trying to put 18 our budget together here. And -- 19 MS. FLEMING: It will take several months to 20 come in and get -- I mean, before you actually start having 21 everything centralized, they need to talk to the 22 departments, figure out what they need, set up processes, 23 you know, how to work the computer system. It would take 24 several months before -- for you to actually say let's start 25 today. 69 1 MR. ODOM: And we really need that individual 2 in there before you start making your budget, right? 3 Because we're talking about contract prices. It could go 4 either way. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think you're doing 6 it just like you do, though; you had contracts in place. 7 When they started, they had contracts in place. 8 MR. ODOM: That's what I'm saying. If we 9 started with an individual, we'd need to have that package 10 together for asphalt. We already have aggregate. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You may already have 12 the contract -- I mean, for the next year, even. 13 MS. FLEMING: For the next year. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And what -- 15 MS. FLEMING: But you'd probably budget on 16 history for -- till could you start determining what kind of 17 savings you had. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't think -- 19 MS. FLEMING: Which we still do, anyway, 20 based on, you know, history, 'cause we may not bid till the 21 end of the budget period. 22 MR. ODOM: How much influence does 23 budgeting -- this purchasing agent have in the budget 24 process? None? 25 MS. FLEMING: I don't know if you call it 70 1 influence. They ask my advice on a lot of items. I 2 check -- I give them pricing, some standards on furniture. 3 They're not required to buy everything on there, but so that 4 if they need an executive chair, they know what the 5 executive chair's going to cost. I look at the computer 6 list, I look at vehicles, what did we buy last year, and 7 then I add a little bit to it for budget purposes, and I 8 assist in that process. I don't know if I'm influential, 9 because it -- lots of times it's budgeted totally different. 10 So -- but I do help in that process. 11 MR. ODOM: Yes, I can see help. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And the more 13 experienced you and the department become, the more helpful 14 you can be in that process, because they know what the 15 trends are, and the -- 16 MS. FLEMING: I'm sorry. We have a vehicle 17 assessment committee that's made up of the Sheriff's 18 Department, vehicle maintenance facility, constables, 19 Operations, Road and Bridge, and myself and a Commissioner, 20 and we review everything everybody asks for. The first 21 thing we do is look at the condition of the cars they want 22 to replace. We have -- we have guidelines, and if it meets 23 that guidelines, especially if it's patrol vehicles, you 24 know, we go ahead and use that, but -- and I don't want to 25 step on anybody's toes, but if we have -- the Tax Office 71 1 needs a vehicle just to run once a day to another office, we 2 may transfer a vehicle over, and we make those 3 recommendations and send it back to Court. And -- and, so, 4 we -- that committee -- it's just recommendations, but I 5 head that up, and we make recommendations back that 6 sometimes there are significant savings. And, one year was 7 more, because we found cars on the list that should have 8 been replaced, and we knew that if we didn't replace some 9 this year, the next year we'd have to double and it would be 10 harder, so one year we recommended more than what was asked 11 for. But -- but, we sit down and look at those things and 12 try to make some recommendations. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you explain a little 14 bit your interaction between the District Judges and the 15 Commissioners Court? I mean, the department's under the 16 District Judges, not the Commissioners Court. And then how 17 you interact with them and then with the Court in Denton 18 County. 19 MS. FLEMING: Let me explain first how I'm 20 hired. I'm not under the District Judges. We had a 21 Purchasing Agent under the District Judges, and just the 22 District Judges, at one time before the law changed that. 23 It was a board, and they abolished that position. And, when 24 they did that, it abolished the Purchasing Agent's job. 25 There is another section of the law that says if you abolish 72 1 the Purchasing Agent, Commissioners Court can hire, if 2 you're over 100,000, and I was hired under Commissioners 3 Court. I have all the authority and everything that the 4 Purchasing Agent does. I have to follow all the same 5 provisions, but I am hired by the Commissioners Court. I 6 think I'm the only person in the state hired that way. 7 There are some hired directly, but not after having a 8 Purchasing Agent and abolishing. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: So -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, with our population, 11 we don't have that option. 12 MS. FLEMING: Right. That's correct. 13 So ours don't interact, as far as I'm concerned, but the 14 District Judges don't have anything to do with the 15 Purchasing Agent. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Talking another 17 county -- 18 MS. FLEMING: I will tell you, though, that 19 Commissioners Court is really good about not trying to 20 influence my decisions. I make a lot of recommendations 21 that they vote against, for reasons that they justify, and 22 that's fine. But, they allow me to make that 23 recommendation. They know it's important for there to be a 24 line between us, even though I'm their employee, that 25 there's no influence or anything on my recommendations. So, 73 1 they have given me lots of leeway, and they don't always 2 agree with me, but they allow me to make my recommendations. 3 And, if there's some other extenuating circumstances, then 4 they -- they move around there. But, we have a real good 5 working relationship, and they've recognized right up front, 6 by me working directly with them, there needs to be that 7 ability for that person to still be independent at some 8 point, you know. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. If -- if we 10 don't have any questions, is there anything that -- I think 11 we do -- 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, I have a question, but I 13 think it can be addressed with her after the meeting. It's 14 the specifics about the -- the very thing that Commissioner 15 Letz was talking to me about this morning, when you go out 16 for contracts for air-conditioning service on maintenance 17 facilities, your air-conditioning, plumbing, and electrical, 18 for example. Are there some forms out floating around in 19 the state of Texas, that -- that you use for your bidding? 20 MS. FLEMING: Yeah. I think if -- if you can 21 let me know what those questions are, specifically -- we 22 actually even have an e-mail group that's purchasing 23 agents -- county purchasing agents in the state. There's 24 also a Commissioners Court one through TAC, and we send out 25 questions, and you can get things sent to you, different 74 1 samples on different things like that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good question, Glenn. 3 MR. HOLEKAMP: Thank you. 4 MS. FLEMING: And you can also call me; I can 5 usually find something. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: Somebody that has e-mail 7 around here. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Follow-up question, 11 larry, to Tommy. Tommy, did you tell us at one time that if 12 we were to establish a Purchasing Department, that you would 13 need a special software module for your accounting system? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Exactly, right. I just got 15 the price on it. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that is? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Close to 60 grand. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: $60,000. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's an automated 21 purchase order system? 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. 23 MS. FLEMING: How are you doing it now? 24 You're just -- 25 MR. TOMLINSON: We're not -- our system won't 75 1 handle putting that in. 2 MS. FLEMING: Okay. 3 MS. PIEPER: I have a question. If we -- I'm 4 the County Clerk. If we call in for a purchase order 5 number, how long would it take to receive one? 6 MS. FLEMING: If you call in for one and it's 7 something you need right away, like a supply or something 8 that's easy, I mean, we'd give it to you over the phone. We 9 prefer to have it by fax. And, if it's a fax that comes 10 through, and it's not something that is a capital item that 11 we have to really do a lot of checking on or something, that 12 we'll need to go take three quotes on, we put a number on 13 them and fax them back. We prefer the fax because we have 14 the signature and we know that it's authorized. But, we do 15 those right away. Now, if it's a $3,000 order, I'm not 16 going to send one back right away; I'm going to check, make 17 sure it's the best price and check everything out, see if 18 delivery's included, all those kind of things. 19 MS. PIEPER: What if I don't like your item? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tommy, I got to go 21 back to the question. Was that for a whole financial 22 system, or just a purchasing module? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: That's for the whole 24 financial system. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The whole new 76 1 financial system, okay. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: We're going to have to have 3 one of those, anyway. 4 MR. ODOM: Have to upgrade the system. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 MS. FLEMING: You're going to have to have 7 that, anyway. 8 MR. ODOM: What was the answer to Jannett's 9 question? 10 MS. PIEPER: I haven't gotten one yet. 11 MS. FLEMING: I'm sorry, I got another 12 question. But, my goal would be to try to get the item that 13 you wanted. And, because there are so many people that sell 14 the same type item, I would try to get pricing on the 15 same -- if it was something that we got a better price on, 16 something similar to it, we would call and see if that 17 product was acceptable. We did that on some cameras for the 18 Sheriff's Office, and we saved -- I don't know, thousands of 19 dollars on, like, six cameras. And we called back and we 20 asked for the spec and sent it over there, and it was 21 acceptable. But if they'd sent it back and said, "No, it 22 doesn't have this feature on it; I need it for undercover" 23 -- whatever they do, then I wouldn't have bought it. I 24 would have gone with my employee's price on the item that 25 they needed. 77 1 MS. PIEPER: Okay. 2 MR. ODOM: So, it's as good as the person 3 that we hire to be flexible to work with. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 5 MR. ODOM: That's the bottom line. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sure. 7 MS. FLEMING: Well, it's just somebody that 8 can communicate those things, and, you know, the Purchasing 9 Agent is responsible for a lot of things. There's a lot of 10 criminal penalties that go with the Purchasing Agent job, so 11 that criminal -- those criminal penalties sometimes will 12 make decisions for you. I'm not going to do that, because I 13 know it's not right, or I know that this is the better price 14 and this is the bid that I need to go with. But -- but they 15 need to be able to communicate back and forth. I draw a 16 hard line on some things that I -- not that they're illegal 17 or unethical; it's just I know that that's the way it needs 18 to be, and I'll draw a hard line and do that. I don't pay 19 for anything that was unauthorized. Of course, I have my 20 attorney backing me up on that, that says we will not pay -- 21 either the employee pays for them or the vendor loses. 22 So -- but the law says that. That's what the law states. 23 So, we're real strict about that. But, I do try to be real 24 accommodating on things, but I also know that I might find 25 something that's a good deal that I can share with you and 78 1 see if it's going to work. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Anything else? Well, 4 Beth, Donna, I want to really thank you. You've enlightened 5 me considerably, and I've worked under purchasing agent 6 systems before. But, we really do thank you for taking the 7 time to drive down, and the Hill Country's an awful nice 8 place to live. 9 MS. FLEMING: Beautiful down here. I've 10 never been down in this area. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: People work for less 12 here because it's so nice. Now, have we started to 13 negotiate? 14 MS. FLEMING: I'll leave all that with you, 15 just more information and more reports and checklists and 16 things like that. Y'all can look at it at your convenience. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If you've got a few 18 minutes, I'm sure there's some real questions that people 19 would like to ask you privately, that you may not want to 20 yell out. 21 MS. FLEMING: You will find the county 22 purchasing agents share everything, and so if you have a 23 question, call me. I'll leave my cards, and I can find 24 somebody that's done what you're trying to do, I guarantee 25 you. I know y'all do the same thing with -- sharing between 79 1 elected officials are the same. But, we try to help in that 2 regard also. There's also some reference things in there, 3 one manual you need to get, even if you don't hire a 4 purchasing agent. It's from the Comptroller's Office for 5 cities and counties. It's -- just call the Comptroller's 6 Office and ask them for the Model Procurement Manual. It 7 outlines a lot of things. We actually have about six of 8 them or seven of them in the county, but that's real 9 helpful. It answers a lot of questions. Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You said that's from 11 the Comptroller's Office? 12 MS. FLEMING: Yes, uh-huh, Model Purchasing 13 Manual. Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the absence of the 15 Judge, I guess we're adjourned. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, I guess we're 17 adjourned. Thanks a bunch. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you much. 19 (Workshop was adjourned at 3:30 p.m.) 20 - - - - - - - - - - 21 22 23 24 25 80 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 3rd day of May, 2000. 8 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25