1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, June 12, 2000 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X June 12, 2000 PAGE 2 --- Visitors' comments 3 3 -- Commissioners' Comments 8 4 1.1 Pay Bills 10 1.2 Budget Amendments 14 5 1.3 Late Bills 24 1.4 Waive Reading and Approve Minutes 25 6 1.5 Read and Accept Monthly Reports 25 7 2.1 Flood Awareness Week June 19-23, 2000 26 2.2 Extension programming update 27 8 2.3 Request for $1,100 for James Kerr marker 34 2.4 Road name and sign changes, set public hearing 43 9 2.5 Road name chances, Canyon Springs Subdivision, and set public hearing 53 10 2.6 Locked gate on Ace Reid Road 58 2.7 Preliminary replat, Lots 1 & 2, Clearview Est. 66 11 2.8 Amended prelim. plat, Privilege Creek Ranches 69 2.9 Preliminary replat, Lots 144A, 145A, 146A, 12 147A & 147B of Falling Water Subdivision 72 2.10 Replat of Falling Water Lots 124 & 131 75 13 2.11 Insurance and benefits for Don Gray 78 2.12 Discuss COPS grant application 86 14 2.20 Update on progress of Classification Study 96 2.21 Status of HCYEC Long-Range Plan Developmet, 15 approve formal presentation of Master Plan 132 2.13 Advertising RFP for electric, HVAC & plumbing 159 16 2.18 Resolution supporting local control of water- related issues & support Senate Bill 1 process 164 17 2.19 Revise plans for Commissioners Courtroom to retain existing lights 167 18 2.14 Discuss outside audit of Jail and Sheriff's Department and detailed inventory of same 168 19 --- Open meeting recessed to hold public OSSF workshop (transcribed as separate document) 186 20 --- Action taken on two Nash & Associates bills 186 --- Oral budget amendment, postage 187 21 2.15 Invitation to South Texas County Judges and Commissioners Association to conduct its 2002 22 meeting in Kerrville 194 2.16 Update on revised Subdivision Rules & Regs 198 23 2.17 Discuss Manufactured Home Rental Communities as the relate to Subdivision Rules & Regs 211 24 --- Meeting adjourned 217 25 3 1 On Monday, June 12, 2000, at 9 o'clock a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had 5 in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's 9 o'clock on Monday, 8 June 12th, Year 2000, and we'll call to order this regular 9 session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. 10 Commissioner Baldwin, I believe have you the honors this 11 morning. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, I do. We have a 13 special guest with us, Coach Reid. As Coach Reid's coming 14 up -- and you all probably know him and know about his five 15 state championships in basketball and his -- he's a member 16 of the Texas Basketball Hall of Fame. You know all that, 17 but he's recently received an award; he's been named one of 18 the top 100 sports legends of the century, and one of my 19 heroes. He asked me not to do this. He's also -- he's a 20 giant amongst men, and -- but he's one of the most humble 21 people I've ever met in my entire life. Coach Reid, go 22 ahead. 23 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, any citizen 25 wishing to address the Court on an item not on the regular 4 1 agenda may come forward and do so. Mr. Siemers? 2 MR. SIEMERS: Good morning, Judge. Morning, 3 Commissioners. My name's Paul Siemers, HC-1, 156-N in Hunt. 4 I debated with myself long and hard whether to do this 5 today. Then when I got here and saw the agenda, I think I 6 made a mistake, but I'm going to do it anyway. I've never 7 been known for being bashful. I'm going to talk about the 8 drought, and in spite of the bountiful rain we had, which 9 was beautiful, and the fact that on the agenda, I think one 10 of the first items we're going to have to proclaim may be a 11 Flood Awareness Week. So, depends on what weatherman you 12 believe; I believe that's what the problem is here. 13 The problem I'm having is that, you know, I 14 think it's been six or seven weeks since I stood here last 15 time. I gave everybody a reprieve, including myself, 16 talking about the drought and water conservation. But 17 what's discouraged me in that time is that the word 18 "drought" and the words "water conservation" have hardly 19 appeared in the public domain, in neither of the newspapers. 20 There's very few references to the fact that we are in a 21 drought in the county and that it's projected to be a 22 long-term drought. The only people that have acknowledged 23 it, I think, are two of the columnists in the Kerrville 24 Daily Times, John Coleman, gardening man, and Susan Sanders, 25 ecologist. So, I felt like it was time to come back and 5 1 make another round of "we're in a drought, folks, and we 2 need to acknowledge the drought and encourage water 3 conservation." 4 I believe that on -- that the reason that so 5 much water's being used -- and it's been published that in 6 Kerrville, that -- that the water usage in the month of May 7 of this year was much more than it was a year ago, and I bet 8 that that's just an indicator of what it is throughout the 9 whole county. We're using more water because it's hotter. 10 We're running about 7, 8 degrees hotter on a daily average 11 than the average, and there are more people here, so we're 12 using a lot more water. And, other than this past weekend, 13 we're not getting a lot of it back. And in spite of the 14 County and the City's lack of, let's say, acknowledgment of 15 the fact that we're in a drought and we have this problem, 16 both the T.N.R.C.C. and the T.W.D.B. have proclaimed that 17 the Hill Country is in a drought and have publicly 18 encouraged water conservation. And even our State Senator 19 Wentworth has published an article in The Mountain Sun, a 20 guest column, encouraging -- acknowledging a drought and 21 encouraging conservation. And, as of a couple days ago, 22 even Governor Bush has issued a proclamation saying that 23 Texas is in a drought and encouraging citizens across the 24 state of Texas to conserve water. 25 And then I found a little article in the 6 1 Kerrville Daily Times way back on Page 9A, and I think that 2 was the -- that was the catalyst that sent me here -- that 3 said that there was an announcement by the Small Business 4 Administration -- U. S. Small Business Administration that 5 businesses in Kerr County depending on farmers and ranchers 6 can apply for low-interest economic injury disaster loans 7 for the effects of the drought that occured from July 1999 8 and continuing. So, from the bottom to the top, except for 9 the officials in Kerr County, everybody says Kerr County's 10 in a drought. So, I guess my question is -- bottom line 11 question is, why not us? 12 And I don't think we should let the rain we 13 had -- 1.8 inches at my house -- you know, lull us into a 14 false sense of security, because we're not even in -- we're 15 already this year 2.81 inches below the average, and we 16 haven't got to summer yet. In spite of the fact that there 17 are predictions for hurricanes now, they may or they may not 18 happen, and the drought may or may not -- the continuing 19 drought may or may not, but it's awareness and -- and 20 activity, and something we should prepare for and 21 acknowledge the possibility of and take mitigating action. 22 I think the other -- couple of other 23 statistical points I want to bring out is that the Palmer 24 Drought Index, severity index, for Kerr County has decreased 25 in the past month on the June 6th update, out of the -- the 7 1 index goes from plus 4 to minus 4, and when you're on the 2 minus side, you're in a drought. We went from 3-point -- 3 minus 3.2 to minus 3.76, and we -- that puts us in a severe 4 drought category according to that -- that index, which is 5 the index that T.N.R.C.C. uses to establish drought 6 conditions. When you reach minus 4, it will be an extreme 7 drought. Now, I assume that because of the rain, our index 8 has probably gotten better, but we'll see what happens the 9 rest of the month. What we've experienced right now is 10 typical of what happened in '96. We had a -- had a good 11 rain right at the end of May, and then the bottom fell out 12 as far as no more rain in the month of June. 13 Based on the precipitation and predictions, 14 excluding the possibility of hurricanes, that they're 15 predicting that the county will be in moderate to severe -- 16 moderate severe to extreme drought conditions for the 17 rest -- for the rest of the year, and there are predictions 18 that say this could go on for as much as three years. Mild 19 to moderate drought conditions for the next three years. 20 So, all I'm asking, again, is that -- is that the Court, as 21 the governing body of the County, at least acknowledge that 22 the county is in a drought, and if -- not even acknowledging 23 the word "drought," at least encourage the citizens of the 24 county and the businesses and the governing institutions to 25 practice water conservation. Thank you. 8 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Anyone else who'd 2 like to address us on an item not on the regular agenda? 3 Anyone else? If not, at this time we'll move into 4 Commissioners' comments and start with Commissioner Baldwin. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have none, sir. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Williams? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just a happy note 8 here. Mr. Holekamp gave me a -- this plaque that was 9 presented to Kerr County by the American Boar Goat 10 Association 2000, and in recognition of our efforts and 11 appreciation of our efforts in helping them present the 12 American Boar Goat Association's show, which I think is just 13 winding up at the Ag Barn. Mr. Holekamp tells me that this 14 was -- let me doublecheck the records to be sure, but they 15 believe the largest show that they have ever had. Some 16 1,100 animals were registered for -- as a part of the show, 17 and this is just a little something in appreciation of the 18 good efforts of Kerr County's employees at the Ag Barn 19 facility for helping them put that show on. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Very good. Jonathan? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only comment I have, I 22 guess it's a little bit of response to Mr. Siemers. The -- 23 just to remind the public that this Commissioners Court is 24 one of the funding mechanisms for the regional planning 25 water -- or regional water planning process, and we also -- 9 1 I think the Court also has input through the Drought 2 Contingency Plan, or has in the past. I think we are aware 3 of the water situation and are doing things both within the 4 budget and individually as Commissioners and County Judge to 5 address that issue. And, on that same line, I invite 6 everyone to -- the next Region J water planning meeting will 7 be the 27th and 28th in Del Rio, a two-day meeting. Anyone 8 is welcome to come and spend the night the Del Rio. Not 9 expecting a large turnout from Kerr County. And then, as I 10 said, early in July we'll start a public hearing phase; late 11 July, early August, and the full regional water plan will be 12 put -- put out for public review and comment. That's it. 13 Larry? 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Good to be back from 15 vacation. Had a great one, but it's always good to get 16 home, and certainly great to come home to this great rain we 17 had this week. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: I believe we have most, if 19 not all, of the budgets by now. If there's anyone out there 20 who has not submitted their budget for next year, they need 21 to do so as soon as possible. They look in pretty good 22 shape, from the ones I've looked at, and we'll start 23 scheduling workshops probably early in July and work through 24 those. It's going to be a difficult budget year. We have a 25 number of large items that are going to require our 10 1 attention, and fulfilling all the needs is not going to be 2 easy. Not that it ever is. So, I appreciate everybody's 3 cooperation, and we'll work through it as best we can. So, 4 with that, let's pay some bills. Mr. Tomlinson. Does 5 anyone have any questions or comments about the bills as 6 presented? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have one. Thought I'd 8 get in front of you, Buster, this morning. My comment goes 9 to the last two items on the first page, Nash and Company. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's mine. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, I'd like to pull 12 those two out until we discuss that agenda item. I've got 13 some real problems with those bills, based on the letter I 14 received from the County Clerk. So, you know, if they're 15 not fulfilling their obligations under our contract, I'm 16 going to -- and I think that's probably an appropriate time 17 to discuss it, because there's a review, I think, Barbara 18 has on there, and we received a letter from Jannett 19 regarding her dissatisfaction with the work being done. So, 20 I read her letter. Anyway, I just think that -- I don't 21 know. I would just like -- before we authorize that 22 payment, I want to make sure they did the work that I 23 thought they were going to do. And, based on Jannett's 24 letter, I have a question about that at this time. But, 25 anyway, I think -- would that that be a better time, 11 1 Barbara, to discuss that? 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I'm going to have to 3 interject here that the payment for Nash is not part of that 4 agenda item. We cannot discuss payment of these bills as 5 part of that agenda item, because it's not posted. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, then, I want to 7 pull out those two bills until I can -- until after that 8 agenda item. Then we can reconsider them. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I don't have a problem 10 with that. I'm not objecting to that, although, you know, 11 I'll remind you we have a contractual obligation to pay 12 them. But if we want to pull them out now, with the 13 understanding that we're going to consider them as part of 14 that agenda item -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I don't mean that 16 I -- 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- we'll go back. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand that. I'm 19 just saying that if they -- based on Jannett's letter, I 20 have a question whether they fulfilled their side of that 21 contract. And if they didn't, then I don't think we are -- 22 they are entitled to their money. And if -- unfortunately, 23 Jannett is not here, but her letter was pretty explicit. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Anything else? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the only comments 12 1 I had. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other comments on any 3 bills? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with 5 Commissioner Letz. We're talking about a few dollars shy of 6 $13,000 payment here, and -- I mean, I don't -- it's okay if 7 we hold them out; it doesn't bother me, but I certainly 8 wanted to point them out to -- because they will be relevant 9 to our conversation later on. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Tommy, on Page 2, under 216th 11 District Court, we have $5,133.95 for Tamera Kneuper on 12 courthouse security during the Hernandez capital trial. 13 Aren't we done with those? I mean, these keep dribbling in 14 every month. I mean, that trial's been over for three or 15 four months. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: I had a budget amendment here 17 last court date to approve that. Now we're paying the bill 18 after we got the amendment approved. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is the same one? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: It's the same bill. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: The point I'm making is, we 23 get some bills on that trial, it seems like, every month. 24 When are we going to get the full bill? When are we going 25 to be done with paying for that trial? That was in, what, 13 1 February? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: I think that's the only one. 3 I don't think there's another one here. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: It may be, but my point is, 5 do they just keep dribbling in? I mean, courthouse 6 security, I mean, we should -- you know, I don't understand 7 why we don't get all the bills on these and -- 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, we -- there was some 9 controversy on the security. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Right. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: And so that -- that took 12 essentially a month to -- to get their Sheriff to agree and 13 our Sheriff's Department to agree on -- on what was a fair 14 amount. And, so, then I redid -- I didn't redo the bill. I 15 wrote them a letter indicating what we thought was fair, and 16 then they sent us -- they redid the bill, sent it back to 17 us. By the time it got to the District Clerk for it -- to 18 have her okay it again and get to us, then -- and then have 19 a budget amendment and then come back to court today to have 20 it approved -- finally approved. So, you know, I mean, it's 21 a process. But -- 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. So long as the process 23 works. Anything else? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move we pay the bills, 25 with the exception of the two to Nash and Company. 14 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 3 second by Commissioner Williams, that we authorize payment 4 of all the bills except the two to Nash and Company, as 5 presented and recommended by the County Auditor. Any 6 further questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise 7 your right hand. 8 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Let's see. 12 We have a few budget amendments. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Budget Amendment Number 1 15 relates to the 216th District Court. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: And this -- this is the one I 17 referred to earlier. This is -- this is a -- a bill from 18 Stephen Pickell, who is a defense attorney for -- I think 19 it's for the retainage of Gilbert Martinez for psychological 20 evaluation. And, the -- the bill is for $1,000. I need a 21 hand check for that. And what I'm requesting is to transfer 22 $1,000 from Court-appointed Attorneys to Special Trials. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 15 1 second by Commissioner Griffin, that we authorize Budget 2 Amendment Request Number 1 for the 216th District Court, and 3 authorize issuance of a hand check made payable to Steve 4 Pickell in the amount of $1,000. Any further discussion? 5 If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 6 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Request 10 Number 2 is for Jail Maintenance. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: This is a -- I'll make this 12 open-ended, because this -- we have some bills accumulated, 13 a total of $1,193.83 for Jail Maintenance. So, I -- I think 14 the last time we took it from Contingency, this amount. So, 15 it's -- I believe those -- it's up to the Court what they 16 want to do. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: We still have that much in 18 Contingency? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second, if you'll tell 22 me how much it is. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: $1,193.83. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 25 Griffin, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that we authorize 16 1 transfer of $1,193.83 from Nondepartmental Contingency to 2 Jail Maintenance. Any further discussion? If not, all in 3 favor, raise your right hand. 4 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 3 is 8 for the Sheriff's Department. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. Sheriff's Department 10 has a need to replace a radio for a vehicle. The request is 11 to transfer $445 from Radio Repairs to the Capital Outlay 12 for the purchase of that radio. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 16 second by Commissioner Griffin, that we authorize Budget 17 Amendment Number 3 on behalf of the Sheriff's Department. 18 Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your 19 right hand. 20 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. I left one -- one more 25 on the table. 17 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: We also have a request, it 2 appears, from T.C. Hall to transfer -- 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: There's another one, 4 Judge, here. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, I've got that. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sorry. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm just taking them in 8 order. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: The one from Trooper Hall is 11 to -- he's -- what he's actually done is changed the list 12 that -- the original list that he gave the Court at the 13 beginning of the year for the items that he wanted to use in 14 his Capital Outlay budget. This is a revision of that list, 15 specifically to purchase a printer for -- a color printer 16 for his laptop that goes in his car. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do these numbers fall within 18 his -- 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- capital budget? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do you know what the 23 miscellaneous equipment is? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: That -- he didn't tell me 25 what -- no, I don't know what miscellaneous equipment is. 18 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you know or recall, 2 Tommy, which of these items are different than what we 3 approved? Or are they all -- 4 MR. TOMLINSON: I think -- I think they're 5 essentially the same, except for -- let's see. I think the 6 duty rig that -- this was discussed, like, a month ago or 7 two months ago. That's different from the original one. 8 Now, also, the accessories for computer is different. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: He tells me that -- that the 11 department does not furnish him a color printer for his -- 12 for his laptop. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are there any guidelines, 14 I guess, as to -- I just don't know the answer -- as to what 15 the County is supposed to assist with? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't think there is any 17 guidelines, Commissioner. I think it's been a policy of -- 18 of the Court at times, in the 10 years that I've been here, 19 to fund some Capital Outlay for -- for D.P.S. And I -- as 20 far as I know, there's no -- there's no amount, you know, 21 any -- any maximum or minimum amount that -- you know, that 22 you choose to do. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Traditionally, do we only 24 fund Trooper Hall, or is it all D.P.S.? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: It's all D.P.S. 19 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Traditionally, what 2 this Court has done is bought D.P.S. automobiles -- every 3 once in a while, we buy them a light bar or two, radar 4 units, that kind of a thing. And then, years ago, we really 5 splurged and hired a secretary for them, which we still pay 6 today, so that those guys don't have to come in off the 7 streets and sit down and do all that paperwork; they can 8 stay on the streets and be making money for the County. And 9 that was the thinking behind that. And, I mean, here -- 10 here we are, funding a State agency. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. Well, I think what he 12 tells me is next year, this next budget year, he plans to 13 ask for a radar, because I think radar units are only 14 certified for -- for two years, so that what happens is that 15 every -- every other year, he -- he'll be asking us for 16 funding for that purpose. This year, he -- he's trying 17 to -- what it appears to me, is to get all the necessary 18 equipment to do -- you know, to do what he does. I mean, 19 this -- he has a special job. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Weights and measures. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my -- I don't 23 want to call it a problem; it's my concern, is that we're 24 buying a lot of equipment here, you know, like Buster says, 25 for a State Trooper. And, while I'm sure it's necessary, 20 1 I'm sure every Sheriff in the county would love to have all 2 the equipment, too, and I'm a little concerned about 3 spending our dollars for a D.P.S., you know, person to have 4 a -- you know, these various items when we have Sheriffs 5 that -- Department deputies that probably have greater 6 needs. But, I think it's part of the budget. I don't 7 really think we shouldn't not approve it, but I think it's 8 something we need to look at closely in the next budget. 9 This was approved, and I probably should have asked these 10 questions about 10 months ago. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I find it curious. 13 Also, my question has to do with -- we buy this equipment 14 for the trooper to be used. Is it used exclusively and 15 solely for Kerr County, or is his territory that he has to 16 cover greater than Kerr County? You know, this kind of -- 17 these questions come to mind. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: I would comment that, along 19 with Commissioner Letz, I think we -- we put this money in 20 his budget, gave him permission to spend it. We need to go 21 along with that. We need to look closely at the repeating 22 needs this summer. I also would comment that I am loathe, 23 myself, to approve miscellaneous anything -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- without a specification as 21 1 to what it's being used for. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do I have a motion with 4 regard to this request? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Motion to approve the 6 list, with the exception of miscellaneous. That item should 7 be withdrawn from the list until a specific need is filed by 8 D.P.S. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I second that, and 10 with a -- with a question. The sentence up above, is that 11 really correct? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, it's not. I was 13 going to ask the same thing. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You're not moving 15 money from Capital Outlay to Operating Expense. It's 16 allocation of Capital Outlay money, right? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: It's partially true. 18 There -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It can't be simple. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: He has -- I mean, he has 21 purchased some -- some supplies for -- for the use of this 22 equipment. For instance, I mean, there's been -- I think 23 along with this duty rig, he's purchased some items that I 24 would consider operating supplies. I mean, they're -- 25 they're not tangible, permanent property that I would 22 1 consider an inventory item. So, I -- my suggestion is to 2 treat them as -- as an operating supply, because they're 3 expended. And, so, there's -- I mean, there's no need to -- 4 to have them in inventory. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, while they -- the 6 dollars were in Capital Outlay originally -- 7 MR. TOMLINSON: They were. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- they're being 9 transferred into Supplies, essentially? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For the purchase. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: That's correct. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: While we're on the 14 lead sentence, just one more point. The language leaves a 15 little bit to be desired, talking about moving money from 16 Capital Outlay to Operating Expense to purchase the 17 following "possible" items. Are they possible to purchase 18 or are they not possible to purchase? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: That's his call. I mean, 20 that -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me amend my motion to 22 say that the -- to approve the list of items specified, with 23 the exception of miscellaneous equipment, and request that 24 the Auditor place the items in the appropriate category. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There you go. 23 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 2 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve the list 3 of items to be purchased, with the exception of the 4 miscellaneous equipment, and authorize the Auditor to 5 categorize those as appropriate within the applicable budget 6 line items. Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, 7 raise your right hand. 8 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Then we go 12 to Budget Amendment Request Number 4 regarding the County 13 Jail. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. I have a request from 15 the Sheriff to transfer $7,753.70 from Jailers Salaries, 16 $2,754.46 to Overtime, and $4,999.24 to Part-Time Salaries. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second, with a question, 20 as well. Rusty, are these -- the overtime portion, is 21 that -- what is the reason for the overtime? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Main reason for the 23 overtime is the dispatchers. We're two dispatchers short 24 right now, and we have been since we did the repositioning. 25 Also, the dispatchers were being scheduled before I took 24 1 office working 12-hour shifts, four 12-hour shifts a 2 month -- I mean four 12-hour shifts per week, and then 3 cutting it down later in the month to give them a total 4 monthly hours of 160 hours. But dispatchers are civilian 5 employees and can't fall under those guidelines of the 160 6 hours a month; they have to stay within 40 hours a week. 7 And, so, when they were working two weeks a -- you know, 8 12-hour shifts, they were putting in 48 hours a week and 9 automatically getting overtime, 8 hours, no matter what they 10 did. So, we're trying to get that straightened out. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 13 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that we approve 14 Budget Amendment Request Number 4. Any further discussion? 15 If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 16 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Do we have 20 any late bills? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Only one was the one from -- 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Steve Pickell? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: We've taken care of that. 25 Okay, thank you. The next item on the agenda is to read and 25 1 approve the minutes. At this time, I'd entertain a motion 2 to waive reading and approve the minutes of the Monday, May 3 8th, Monday, May 15th, and Monday, May 22nd meetings. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 7 second by Commissioner Griffin, that we waive reading and 8 approve the minutes of the Kerr County Commissioners Court 9 regular session on Monday, May 8th, Kerr County 10 Commissioners Court Special Session on Monday, May 15th, and 11 the Kerr County Commissioners special called session on 12 Monday, May 22nd. Any further discussion? If not, all in 13 favor, raise your right hand. 14 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do I have a motion to approve 18 and accept the monthly reports as presented? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 22 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that we approve and 23 accept the monthly reports as presented. Any further 24 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 25 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 26 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. All right. 4 We'll move into the consideration agenda. First item is 5 Item Number 1, consider and discuss proclaiming June 19th 6 through June 23rd, Year 2000, as Flood Awareness Week for 7 Kerr County. Mary Virginia Holekamp. 8 MS. HOLEKAMP: Good morning. My name is Mary 9 Virginia Holekamp, and I'm here as the Director of Kerr 10 County -- I'm here as the Director of Kerr County R.C.& D. 11 And Flood Awareness Week will be June 19th through June 12 23rd. Kerr County R.C.& D. has encouraged the City of 13 Kerrville, the City of Ingram, and Kerr County to make -- 14 make proclamations supporting Flood Awareness Week in Kerr 15 County. We appreciate very much the last Flood Awareness 16 Week that was sponsored by the River Corridor Committee of 17 Kerr County, and that was over a year ago. And I want to 18 recognize the Kerrville Times and the Kerrville Mountain Sun 19 for their cooperation. A large flood picture was shown on 20 the front of each of those newspapers. There were 21 informative articles written by Susan Sanders, Joe Herring, 22 Peri Stone, Mark Lloyd, and Mary Elizabeth Davis. So, we 23 would appreciate your support again for Flood Awareness 24 Week. And it is interesting that most floods occur at the 25 end of a long drought. 27 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I move that 3 the Court approve the resolution -- proclamation prepared 4 and submitted by Mary Virginia Holekamp, citing our 5 awareness for Flood Awareness Week for Kerr County. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll second. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 8 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that we approve the 9 proclamation declaring the week of January 19th through 10 January 23rd as Flood Awareness Week for Kerr County. Any 11 further comments or -- 12 AUDIENCE: June, not January. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, June. If not, all 14 in favor, raise your right hand. 15 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Very good. 19 Item Number 2, consider and discuss an update on Extension 20 programming concerning water issues and the 4-H program. 21 Good morning, Janie. 22 MS. SQUIERS: Good morning. How are you 23 doing? 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good. 25 MS. SQUIERS: Well, Eddie wanted me to share 28 1 with y'all some light reading. Jonathan, you already have a 2 copy, so I gave yours to Mary Virginia. This is proceedings 3 from the Water 2000-Plus water conference that was held in 4 San Marcos last month, and it's a lot of good information 5 from other counties and cities in the state about how 6 they're handling the water problem. So, I have copies that 7 the Extension Service has asked us to present to our County 8 Judge and Commissioners, and I'll leave those with Thea for 9 y'all to have as you leave today. 10 In Kerr County, we're really focusing a lot 11 of our activities on educational programs for kids. We're 12 working with Eddie and Laurinda, and I want to just kind of 13 give you a recap of three activities we've done just 14 recently. One was a 3-day water camp where we reached 650 15 sixth graders. We work with Riverside Nature Center on 16 this. This was held in April. And then Laurinda will tell 17 you more about the Ag Awareness Day that was held in May for 18 fourth graders, and water conservation was a real focus of 19 Ag Awareness Day. And then in July, Laurinda and I will be 20 doing an in-service training for teachers out at the Kerr 21 Wildlife Management Area. We'll promote a lot of the 4-H 22 curriculum called "Give Water a Hand," which they can use in 23 grades 1 to 12, teaching water conservation to kids. So, we 24 see a lot of what we can do to help the problem of water 25 conservation is also educating kids, so we're working kind 29 1 of on that angle right now. 2 I do want to briefly just give you an update 3 about the F.C.S. program and remind you that my main 4 educational effort is still the Better Living for Texans 5 project. I've been teaching budgeting, money management, 6 meal planning, and nutrition to families in Kerr County with 7 limited resources. My audiences have included the Head 8 Start parents, senior citizens, Hispanic families, 9 neighborhoods, subsidized day care and housing citizens, and 10 clients at the free clinics here in Kerrville. I know y'all 11 are real busy, you have a big agenda today. I don't want to 12 take any more time, but I do want Laurinda to talk about the 13 accomplishments of the 4-H program. Do y'all have any 14 questions? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Appreciate it, the 16 program. I think it's a good program that's being done 17 statewide. 18 MS. SQUIERS: Good. Thank you. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Laurinda? 20 MS. BOYD: I've been out at the A.B.G. thing 21 this last four days, so I've kind of gotten sick, lost my 22 voice, but I do want to compliment Glenn and the staff for 23 an excellent job. The American Boar Goat Association, it's 24 the fourth show that they've had here. They had over 1,000 25 entries this year, and two years ago when they had it here, 30 1 they had 760, so we certainly want to encourage them to keep 2 coming back, 'cause these entries mean more people in the 3 community, and they are definitely spending a lot of motel 4 tax and eating in the restaurants. So, we -- Glenn and Mike 5 and everybody out there are doing an outstanding job on the 6 facility; we really appreciate them. 7 And also our staff, Janie and Eddie and I, 8 we're very involved also in the 4-H program. We have -- May 9 is kind of the end of our year. We have 426 kids in our 10 youth program in career, and we -- we had in our nutrition 11 project and clothing projects, which Janie conducts, and our 12 veterinary science, skeet and trap, and livestock projects. 13 We've been really busy this last two months, traveling six 14 weekends going to willa mohair practices. We've qualified 15 a mohair team to go to State. We're leaving in the morning 16 to go to State 4-H Round-up. Over 2,600 youth will be at 17 A & M. And we have a soil -- senior soil team going, and 18 also our first clothing project went for state. We're very 19 excited about that, aren't we, Janie? 20 And also, our Share the Fun; we also have for 21 the first time a Share the Fun presentation in vocal. She's 22 going to -- Jamie Henderson, Becky's daughter, is going to 23 be singing at State 4-H Round-up, and she's pretty -- if you 24 ever want anybody to sing the National Anthem or something, 25 she's really good. So, we're very excited about that. 31 1 Having some -- not only taking our regulars to State that 2 we've always done really well in, but having some new -- new 3 ones go along also, and then next week we'll be going to 4 Sonora with over 20 kids to the Sonora Willa Mohair National 5 Contest, and that will be pre-juniors, our little kids, all 6 the way up to our seniors. So, that will end our judging 7 activities, and we're really proud of them. 8 The biggest event we have had recently is our 9 Ag Awareness Day on May the 2nd, which Janie made reference 10 to. Ag Awareness Day is something we've been doing for 11 several years, and we -- two years ago -- well, actually, in 12 October of '99, we went in with -- partners with the Kerr 13 County Farm Bureau, and which has been a wonderful 14 partnership, because it has really made my job easier, and 15 also the assets that they bring to it are just outstanding. 16 They -- we had 384 4-H fourth graders there from Kerr 17 County. We had 80 volunteers that helped support and put 18 everything together, and 32 of our 4-H Council leadership 19 team were there to serve as leadership school -- kind of 20 school tour guides, and they worked one-on-one with kids and 21 went around with the -- with the teachers. It was an 22 excellent leadership opportunity for them. 23 And I'm going to put a little package 24 together, Thea, and get it up here to you, just to share 25 with y'all some of the letters from the school kids about 32 1 the event and how impressed they were with everything. We 2 had eight training stations, beef and willa mohair. One of 3 the bigger ones we stressed this year was water 4 conservation. Joe Franklin was out with his -- you know, 5 simulator. And -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rain machine. 7 MS. BOYD: Rain machine. That was really -- 8 the kids think that's awesome. And, our mobile dairy unit, 9 which Clyde Holekamp with our county does, the kids love 10 that. Of course, the milking machine. And I'm forgetting 11 one -- oh, Bruce Oehler and them bring out their big saw -- 12 what do you call it -- sawmill, Glenn? And they actually 13 sit there, you know, sawing, planing everything, and the 14 kids just -- they think that's awesome. So, anyway, we have 15 some really great things that normally the kids don't get to 16 see. You'd be amazed how many of those kids have no clue at 17 all that milk comes from a cow, it doesn't come from a 18 carton. And hamburger patties actually come from beef. 19 It's just totally amazing. And, as a matter of fact, some 20 of the teachers really don't know these things. Not that 21 I'm saying that in a critical way, but they just really 22 don't think of the whole process. So, this is a really 23 important thing that we always do. We did two this year, 24 but we will be going back to staying in April and May of 25 every year, and we always target the fourth graders. So, 33 1 this is a wonderful event. 2 The last big event that our 4-H council 3 leadership team will be doing this summer is our July 6th 4 fishing derby, and usually we have about 100 kids there. 5 The Lion's Camp brings out whatever camp they have at the 6 time; it's either a diabetes camp or it's a handicapped 7 camp. And, then we invite several of the day care centers 8 here in town who have, you know, the kids that pretty much 9 mom and dad works all summer long and they don't really get 10 a lot of different opportunities, or -- or they may not have 11 dads at home, and so our kids spend from about 8 o'clock in 12 the morning till about 2 o'clock out there helping them 13 fishing and doing a lot of fun stuff, and we have a whole 14 bunch of little awards; large fish, small fish, the slimiest 15 fish, and whatever we can dream up. And the kids have a lot 16 of fun. We have ribbons and things. 17 And, this year I'm really excited because the 18 Kerrville Daily Times is sponsoring us, and they gave us a 19 $200 donation to pay for all of our snacks and our trophies 20 and ribbons and everything, so we really, really appreciate 21 that. It makes our event a lot better. So, thank y'all 22 very much. We're keeping -- growing every year, and always 23 moving. So, we appreciate y'all's support very much. Eddie 24 wanted me to mention real, real quick -- I know you are in a 25 hurry, but he is working right now with the meat goat 34 1 producers in the county on our July -- July 8th sale coming 2 up, and today he is at the American Boar Goat Judges School, 3 which he is also involved with and hosting. And next week, 4 he'll be working with the Texas Beef Council on a Beef 5 Symposium which will be here at the Y.O., and also helped to 6 start that. And we would really always like to thank y'all 7 for y'all's support and making our Kerr County Extension 8 programs so successful. Thank you. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you for all your 11 work. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Item Number 3 is 14 consider and discuss request for $1,100 to pay for the James 15 Kerr marker to be placed on the courthouse grounds. General 16 Schellhase on behalf of the Kerr County Historical 17 Commission. 18 MR. SCHELLHASE: Walter Schellhase, 529 Water 19 Street, Chairman of the Kerr County Historical Commission. 20 I come before you this morning to request payment of an 21 $1,100 bill for the marker -- for the James Kerr marker to 22 be placed on the courthouse grounds. This is a three and a 23 half to four-year project that we've been working on at the 24 request of the Court several years ago. Clara Belle 25 Snodgrass started the process. We've -- it has been drawn 35 1 out so long because of the difficulty of acquiring any 2 information whatsoever on James Kerr. Luckily, Clara Belle 3 was finally able to reach some grandchildren in Kentucky and 4 in Texas, and acquired the necessary information to make 5 that final determination. I believe we passed this out you 6 the last time we were here doing our annual report, and we 7 indicated we'd come back before you to request the payment 8 of that -- of that marker. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question on 11 the letter that you attached to the item. 12 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Walter, the letter 14 states the old price and new price. Have we already 15 appropriated the old price? 16 MR. SCHELLHASE: No. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are we asking the 18 difference? 19 MR. SCHELLHASE: No, it has not been 20 appropriated. The old price went out of existence on March 21 the 1st of this year, and the new price was instituted as of 22 that time. We requested that originally in our budget for 23 the Year 2000, and out of the $7,600 request, we received 24 $2,500, which we did not allocate that to the marker. We 25 figured we'd come back and ask for that, and we do not have 36 1 those necessary funds today in Historical Commission funds. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Jonathan, you had a question? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That was my question, 4 same as thing Bill asked. And General Schellhase answered 5 the second part of my question, which was do y'all have any 6 funds to pay for it. 7 MR. SCHELLHASE: We've been working on trying 8 to get donations for it. We were not successful in coming 9 up with those. We made a couple of grant requests, and they 10 were denied. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: General, I need to ask you, 12 this budget summary indicates you have $2,500 in your 13 latest -- this current year's budget. Do y'all have those 14 already allocated? 15 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. Most of it is to the 16 archives and to the oral history. We have a total of $746 17 unallocated at this time. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 19 MR. SCHELLHASE: And we really don't want to 20 just discontinue or reduce the -- the oral history program. 21 As you know, y'all have seen those booklets that we're 22 putting together for the library. We've now completed 23 of 23 them. We have, I believe, 17 more in the works, and we have 24 a total of 93 to do. So, those are rather expensive for us 25 to complete, but I think we're going to have a great deal of 37 1 need for them in the future. It's going to be a great part 2 of our history of Kerr County. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Could -- could I ask you to 4 give us an index of those -- 5 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes, sure can. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- oral histories? Just send 7 over a -- you know, the name and the dates, perhaps. 8 MR. SCHELLHASE: Sure can. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think I'd find that 10 interesting, who-all we've documented. 11 MR. SCHELLHASE: And they're being used quite 12 a bit in the library as of this time, those that we have 13 over there. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a question. 15 My only question is -- or two questions. I'm assuming 16 that -- and your -- some few years ago, I think you said the 17 Commissioners Court passed an order to do this? 18 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. It was a request made 19 at the annual meeting in 1997, at the annual report. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And there's a court 21 order of some sort? 22 MR. SCHELLHASE: I don't know that we had an 23 order to do it, but -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's a court order 25 of some sort that authorized payment of this thing? Or 38 1 purchase of it? 2 MR. SCHELLHASE: We have a list of markers 3 that -- that need to be done. That list is now around 29 in 4 Kerr County that should be done. The problem is always to 5 find someone the pay for them. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's -- you know, 7 I hate paying for things that aren't in the budget, but this 8 is kind of one of those items that was approved previously, 9 and I think that it's -- you -- I mean, we're kind of -- 10 certainly obligated to pay for it. And I think it's 11 worthwhile. I mean, I think this is of assistance to the 12 County. I wish we could, you know, get more grant funds for 13 these type of projects, but I think, you know, this 14 Commission tries that where they can. Certainly, this is 15 also going on the courthouse lawn. My biggest question 16 is -- I don't see, Tommy in here any more -- where we come 17 up with the money to pay for it. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That was my second 19 question, Jon. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: I have a suggestion. The 21 name Kerr does have some meaning around here, so we probably 22 ought to memorialize the founding father of our place we 23 live. I would suggest that we take the money for this from 24 the $5,000 that's in our current budget for redistricting, 25 which we stuck in there just in case any redistricting 39 1 expenses came up. And we entered into a contract for 2 redistricting which did not call for payment until next 3 June, so the money for the redistricting consultant will 4 actually be in next year's budget. So, that is a potential 5 source for these funds, if that's the will of the court. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's -- I don't 7 have any problem with that. That's a good spot. I'll make 8 the motion to do such. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'll second. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 12 second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court approve 13 payment of $1,100 to the Texas Historical Commission for the 14 James Kerr monument, and that such funds be taken from the 15 Redistricting fund that's currently allocated in the budget. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I have a question. 17 Walter, you said there were 29 others? 18 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes, there's 29 others that 19 we know that should be done. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But they're not -- we're 21 not going to be -- there are not 29 others getting ready to 22 come to us for funding? 23 MR. SCHELLHASE: We're only picking those 24 that are on private property, so they have to pay for them. 25 That's some of the holdup. Sometimes we have difficulty 40 1 getting those people to agree to pay for that marker. 2 They'll say, yeah, if y'all want to do it, go ahead. Then 3 when they find out they have to pay for the markers, they 4 say, "We're not doing that." We just got the Cade House out 5 on Cade Road; Leah Bell paid for that. We just received the 6 Reservation School marker. That came in last week. In 7 fact, it came to the courthouse here; there was all kind of 8 to-do over who was going to receive it, but it -- it was -- 9 it's being paid for by Virginia Falwell. And, of course, 10 the one prior to that was Schreiner Institution, which 11 Schreiner paid for, so those are the last three that we did. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I just wanted to 13 clarify that we weren't -- didn't have 29 others getting 14 ready -- 15 MR. SCHELLHASE: On this one, it took so 16 long, and no one thought it would because of being James 17 Kerr; we just figured that was going to be an easy task to 18 do, but it wasn't. So, it's agreed that the Commission will 19 come here first to get an approval for the payment if it's a 20 county marker. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's been moved and seconded. 22 Any further questions or comments? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: One more comment. I 24 would -- I'd like for somebody to provide -- or I'm going to 25 support it and vote for it, but I would like for someone to 41 1 provide to me that some previous court has made a commitment 2 on this. Some kind of -- it would have to be a court order, 3 formal agreement, so obviously there's one out there 4 somewhere. 5 MR. SCHELLHASE: I bet you Clara Belle 6 Snodgrass would know exactly the day it was done, I'm sure. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All in favor, raise your 8 right hand. 9 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: General, let me give 14 you this. 15 MR. SCHELLHASE: For general information, it 16 takes about six to eight weeks to receive it after the check 17 has been received at the foundry, and then we're required to 18 have a placement ceremony and dedication for that, which the 19 County -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we have the location for 21 that? 22 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's something we'll have 24 to come back -- 25 MR. SCHELLHASE: I'm afraid that's been 42 1 decided already. I don't know how, but in the application, 2 or in the -- it has to be located where it was approved, and 3 it was approved in front of this tree. That tree is quite a 4 bit larger now. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who approved it? 6 MR. SCHELLHASE: No idea. Glenn, were you 7 involved in this, the location of that? 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: I don't remember. 9 MR. SCHELLHASE: That was before me, also. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tree's still there? 11 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yeah. I believe that is 12 between the flagpole and the fountain, towards the curb. We 13 can request a change, but it will have to go back to Austin. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is a standard -- 15 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes, marker. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- marker? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there a walkway to 18 where it's going? 19 MR. SCHELLHASE: No. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, we 21 ought to have it where it's, clearly, easily accessible, 22 near a sidewalk, to me. Just to keep from having to build 23 more things on our courthouse lawn. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can we talk? 25 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 43 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: General, why don't you and 2 Commissioner Williams get together on that? 3 MR. SCHELLHASE: Same sidewalk with the 4 cannon, right? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Barbara? 7 MS. NEMEC: Judge, do you want to approve 8 this as a hand check to expedite this matter? Or, if not, 9 it's going to have to wait until the 26th before we can get 10 a check. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we should get the 12 location ironed out. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think maybe we have 14 enough -- before we send the application in -- I'm sure the 15 check has to go in with the application, correct, General? 16 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes -- no, the application 17 is already in. The check just has to go in. Just the 18 check. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's have a chance to look 20 at the location, okay? 21 MR. SCHELLHASE: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'll talk. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Next item is Item 24 2.4, and with the indulgence of the Court, I think we'll 25 call 2.4 and 2.5 together. 2.4 is consider and discuss a 44 1 list of roads for name change and various regulatory signs 2 and set a public hearing for same. 2.5 is consider and 3 discuss approval of proposed road name changes in the Canyon 4 Springs Subdivision and surrounding areas, setting a public 5 hearing on adoption of such court order. Who wants to 6 start? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 2.4 is Commissioner 8 Williams and myself have gone together and pooled some name 9 changes that you see on the list there. The first five are 10 in Precinct Number 1, and each one of these were driven by 11 property owners, public, folks that live on these roads that 12 requested the changes. In my packet, if you turn a page, 13 you see the form that has been filled out and signed off by 14 Mr. Sandlin at 911. And, I think this is the new -- the new 15 form Truby -- that Truby has worked up. There's a little 16 bit of confusion on what form we're using these days, or 17 there's a little bit of confusion on what form 911 is 18 sending over here. Anyway, I'm pretty clear on what I want, 19 but they might not be in total agreement with me. But, 20 nevertheless, my five are public, county-maintained roads 21 which require a public hearing to change the names. And, 22 that's all have I to say. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a couple 24 comments about the two that are Precinct 2. The list talks 25 about East Camp Verde Road to Witt -- to Witt East. The 45 1 proposal is to change at least a portion of East Camp Verde 2 Road to Witt Road, and the purpose of that and reason for 3 that is, if we take a look at the map that accompanies the 4 agenda item, the dotted -- the dotted line coming off and 5 coming back into the Farm-to-Market Road 480, which is Camp 6 Verde Road, is -- is a portion of the old Camp Verde Road. 7 There are two residences on that road, most close -- on the 8 end closer to Center Point or coming from Center Point. The 9 purpose is to give some identity and ease for people to find 10 Witt Road. You can't find Witt Road if you don't know 11 exactly where it is, because it's hidden from traffic coming 12 up and down Farm-to-Market Road 480. I've had requests from 13 people who live in the area that indicate that it would be 14 much easier if they -- if the old Camp Verde Road be renamed 15 to Witt Road so people will know exactly where and how to 16 get to Witt Road, and a sign -- signage can be put up 17 appropriately to accomplish that. 18 Well, I might have to come back after a 19 public hearing at a later date and move to abandon the -- 20 what would be, I guess, the southern portion of East Camp 21 Verde Road; no one lives on that, and that would make it a 22 little easier for 911. I don't think Truby and I talked 23 about this, but T. Sandlin and I talked about making it a 24 little easier in terms of the numbering process. The 25 numbering process would start with the two homes that are 46 1 currently on East Camp Verde and then will continue out Witt 2 Road, and he said that would be the order in which to do it. 3 We may want to come back later and either rename the other 4 portion of the old East Camp Verde or abandon it and -- for 5 numbering and identification purposes. I think that's 6 something we need to talk about later. 7 On the other one, Evans Road to Upper Mason 8 Creek, that's just a matter of renaming a road to be 9 consistent with Bandera County, I believe, and consistent 10 with the folks who live there, in terms of their ability and 11 others' to identify the right road. It was named Evans 12 many, many, many years ago, and no one by the name of Evans, 13 I believe, lives there any more. It really is Upper Mason 14 Creek Road East, and so that's what that's all about. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, I mean, it 16 seems it's going to be confusing if we name the whole thing 17 Witt Road. Why don't we just name the portion -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I'm 19 talking about, just a portion. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- just the north portion 21 of Witt Road, leave the other one unchanged at this point? 22 We can address this at a future time. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We could do it that 24 way. That's all I'm talking about, making Witt Road -- 25 making it the portion -- the northernmost portion. 47 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And sign it 3 accordingly. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And then the 5 southern portion, leave it as it is right now, and change it 6 the next time we change -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We can leave it the 8 way it is or change it or abandon it. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, at a future time. 10 Otherwise -- so, we only have one Witt Road, anyway. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And on that list, you 15 see that we have some speed limits that we're setting and 16 one no-parking area, Northwest Hills. Also, I'd like to 17 make a comment that -- Commissioner Williams and I talked 18 about it and talked with Road and Bridge folks, and felt 19 like that it would be just a good way of doing business 20 if -- if we ask Truby to help coordinate all these things. 21 When there's road names changes, I'd like to just send them 22 out there under one -- under one roof and let them 23 coordinate the thing. She's agreed to do that and, as a 24 matter of fact, has put -- put this information together for 25 us today. I just wanted to say thank you for that, and I 48 1 think we need to continue that, if everyone would agree. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. Thank you 3 very much for doing it, Truby. And on your official 4 documents, I would like to make a note, or have you make 5 note, if you will, on the East Camp Verde, make it -- the 6 northern segment of East Camp Verde Road to Witt Road just 7 says Witt. Witt Road East. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let me make a comment here, 9 just so we don't get confused. The two Tierra Loops and the 10 Dog Trot Trail are not county-maintained roads, according to 11 the information. I think the statement was made in the 12 introduction that these are all public roads. They may all 13 be public roads, but Tierra Loop, which will become Tierra 14 Vista Drive North, and Tierra Loop, which would become 15 Lonesome Dove Lane North, and Dog Trot Trail, which would 16 become Quailwood Lane North, are not county-maintained 17 roads. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Judge, my -- to take 19 that just a little bit further, I think we need to make sure 20 that -- that, for the record, everybody understands that the 21 naming of the road does not affect its maintenance status. 22 It can be a private road, and it will go through this 23 process. It can be a public road, non-county-maintained; it 24 will go through the process. Or it can be a public, 25 county-maintained road and it would go through this process. 49 1 But -- but the naming of the road does not in any way affect 2 the maintenance status of a particular road. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, we need to 4 always keep in mind that the 911 service is -- drives this 5 whole -- whole deal. And I mean that. I mean that. We 6 need to -- you know, sometimes when I'm dealing with these 7 things and I hear from old family members way out in the 8 western end of the county, and, you know, "Be sure to 9 maintain the family name on these roads," that kind of 10 thing, I -- I have to lay that down and consider what we're 11 really doing here is ambulance, fire, and police service so 12 that those people will know where these roads are, and we 13 always keep that first and foremost in our minds when we're 14 dealing with these things. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only comment I have 16 is a question, really, to Franklin or Truby. Speed limit 17 section, this Lane Valley South Fork. Isn't the road just 18 called South Fork, or -- 19 MS. HARDIN: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So just delete "Lane 21 Valley" from that, so that we're essentially setting the 22 speed limit on South Fork at 40 miles an hour. 23 MS. HARDIN: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where is it? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's off Lane Valley. 50 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can just change 2 the name of a road, just like that? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Typos -- 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: When it's a typo. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, it's a typo. 6 AUDIENCE: Just South Fork? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It becomes Lane 8 Valley South Fork, right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, it's just South Fork. 10 There's no "Lane Valley" on that road. It's just South 11 Fork. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Franklin do you have a 13 comment? 14 MR. JOHNSTON: There's a comment on these 15 forms where the road names are on platted plats. Our 16 Commissioners Court court orders normally check when, you 17 know, they're in the process, or should the plat -- the road 18 name on the plat actually be changed. Just for our records. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, I know what -- 20 what I have done is to go back to the court orders to make 21 sure that the court order name is what we're dealing with, 22 so that we can -- so that we can change what's on the court 23 order, rather than what may be on an old plat which may not 24 have been updated. You see what I'm saying? For example, 25 there was -- in -- when was it that you did the name 51 1 changes? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 8-7-59. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 8-7-59. And the -- in 4 those two, there are some names that are different. For 5 example, the one I live on, River Road, was Fore -- Forgason 6 Road. And that name, River Road, was -- was formerly 7 accepted in the '59 document, I think. But, at any rate, we 8 do need to go back and make sure, where we can, that we're 9 dealing with the right -- that we're changing from the 10 correct name to whatever the new one is. I think we still 11 have effect, but -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's true. The question 13 Franklin's raising is -- is if we change a road name, how 14 then does it get reflected back to the applicable plat? And 15 my suggestion would be that we actually formally approve the 16 road name change, and that the order also indicate that a 17 copy of the order will be filed with the appropriate plat. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. That -- that, I 19 think, was -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We had discussed that 22 already, and that was sort of the -- that was going to be 23 the procedure, that it would be filed with the plat. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: It should be part of the 25 final order changing the name that a copy of the order be 52 1 filed with the plat of whatever subdivision. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That will work. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that needs to be 4 documented either in the 911 -- which is kind of the 5 governing thing on naming stuff. Probably that should be 6 done, so that when -- 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- you know, Truby or 9 someone else, you know, no longer works with Road and Bridge 10 or whatever happens, that it's -- you know, there's a 11 procedure in place. I hope you're not leaving, Truby. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't let her out the 13 door. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Procedurally, at this time, 15 let's -- let's approve the proposed road name changes, speed 16 limits and no-parking zone on this -- this court order, the 17 proposed changes. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And set a public 19 hearing for July -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, we'll do that in a 21 minute. Do we have a motion? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move that we approve 23 the changes. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 53 1 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Williams, that we approve 2 the proposed road name changes, speed limit changes, and 3 no-parking zone changes. Any further discussion? 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes, question. And 5 I'll vote in favor, certainly. But there can be further 6 adjustments at the public hearing or after the public 7 hearing to what we're doing now, so I just want to make sure 8 that's understood, that we can continue with the puts and 9 takes that we're -- we may have to do to some of the 10 additional considerations. So, this is not the final order. 11 That will happen after the public hearing. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's true. Any further 13 comments or questions? If not, all in favor, raise your 14 right hand. 15 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Now, let's turn to Canyon 19 Springs. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. And I'm sorry 21 this didn't get in your packets, but there's copies. And, 22 Truby, I have a copy for you on both of these. That's a 23 before. This is the Canyon Springs area. This is the -- 24 and this is the after. We will get the forms made up before 25 the public hearing. Truby, I'm sorry I wasn't here to work 54 1 those with you, but I think that's an excellent procedure of 2 running them through Road and Bridge and let Truby 3 coordinate these for us. But, we've had a meeting with some 4 of the board members of the Canyon Springs Subdivision 5 Homeowners Association, and these are the initial thoughts 6 on -- on what that renaming would look like. There are two 7 specific -- two additions specifically I'd like to add to 8 this, because they intersect these roads, and we should 9 cover them, I think, at the same time. T., I should have 10 mentioned this to you earlier, but I think we need to go 11 ahead and do Stewart Junkin Road to Stewart Junkin Road 12 West, and River Road to River Road West. And that takes 13 care of, then, this entire area for all of the roads that 14 are in Canyon Springs, everything that's on that side of 15 Highway 1340 and 39. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Where would those two be, 17 Larry? 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I can show you -- you 19 see on the after, where Ranch Rim Drive West is noted on the 20 bottom? 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Correct. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That is River Road 23 that crosses just north of there. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: This long one that goes -- 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's right. 55 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Canyon Springs Drive. 3 And it actually goes all the way around to 1340. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: That would become River Road 5 West? 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: River Road West. And 7 if you'll look up in the very left-hand corner, Stewart 8 Junkin Road is that road that takes off of River Road. 9 Right here on the very left side. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Going up the 12 left-hand side. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Comment, T.? 14 MR. SANDLIN: That is Stewart Junkin and not 15 Valley View? 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's on the plat, I 17 think, and on the -- and on our road list as Stewart Junkin. 18 MR. SANDLIN: As Stewart Junkin? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We'll verify that, but 20 it -- I think it is on the court order and the plat as 21 Stewart Junkin. 22 MR. SANDLIN: Okay. We've got it both -- 23 that was one that came up this past week. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. We'll work 25 that. I'd like to make those two additions, and this is the 56 1 before and after. We'll get the forms made up to reflect 2 these. There was one question south of River Road, where 3 Ranch Rim Drive West is shown. That is not 4 county-maintained and it will remain not county-maintained. 5 It's just that the name, as proposed -- yes? 6 MS. HARDIN: Is that the portion of what we 7 call West Drive, and it goes down to the river? 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right, it's Ravine. 9 MS. HARDIN: A portion of it is maintained. 10 We have it as part of West Drive. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh, okay. 12 MS. HARDIN: But not all of it, just part of 13 it. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That portion that's 15 not county-maintained will continue to be not 16 county-maintained. That was my emphasis. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question, Larry, on 18 this Stewart Junkin. Is that the piece that intersects 19 here, or is it the whole thing? 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's the piece that -- 21 it's four-tenths of a mile long. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the intersection 23 goes off the page, and -- 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It goes off the page 25 on this -- this view. We'll have an updated drawing, full 57 1 size. So, I would make the motion that we accept these 2 proposed name changes, as I've just outlined, and set a 3 public hearing at the same time that we do the other one. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Motion's been made to 5 approve the proposed road name changes in Canyon Springs 6 Subdivision. Any further comments or questions? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Second, right. Let's start 9 over again. Moved by Commissioner Griffin, seconded by 10 Commissioner Letz, that we approve the proposed road name 11 changes in Canyon Springs Subdivision in Precinct Number 4. 12 Any further comments or questions? If not, all in favor, 13 raise your right hand. 14 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Now it would be appropriate 18 to have a motion to set a public hearing on the road name 19 changes in Precinct 1, Precinct 2, and Precinct 4, as we've 20 just approved. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And speed limits. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: And speed limits and parking, 23 correct. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And which speed limits 25 includes part of Precinct 3. 58 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. All right, I stand 2 corrected. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move we set a public 4 hearing on July 24th, 2000, at 10 a.m. in this courtroom. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: July 24th? Okay. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is that a good day for you? 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Fine. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Motion made by 10 Commissioner Baldwin, second by Commissioner Williams, that 11 we have a public hearing on the proposed road name, speed 12 limit, and no-parking changes on July 24th, Year 2000, at 13 10 o'clock a.m. in the Commissioners Courtroom here in the 14 Kerr County Courthouse. Any further comments or questions? 15 If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 16 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay, next 20 item is Item Number 6, consider and discuss placement of a 21 locked gate on Ace Reid Road, Precinct Number 1. 22 Commissioner Baldwin. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is really not my 24 item. I mean, I'd be happy to address it, but Mr. Johnston 25 or Mr. Brown -- 59 1 MS. HARDIN: Ms. Spencer is here in place of 2 Mr. Brown. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hi, Ms. Spencer. 4 You're welcome to come. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Franklin, why don't you tell 6 us first what you have, and then we'll let Ms. Spencer talk. 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, I don't have a whole 8 lot. The road -- gate was built across the road, where it 9 leaves James Avery Road onto Ace Reid Road. And, I think we 10 notified y'all by letter? 11 (Ms. Spencer nodded.) 12 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah, we sent a letter out 13 just requesting information, and we received a letter 14 back -- I think you have it in your packet -- from Tom 15 Brown, saying they were unaware it was a county road. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is a county -- a public, 17 county-maintained road? 18 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, it is. 19 MS. SPENCER: Yes. Excuse me, can I just -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Ms. Spencer, come 21 forward and let us -- 22 MS. SPENCER: I was just going to say, I 23 don't think we were unaware it was a county road. We were 24 unaware we could not put a gate across the county road when 25 we did it. 60 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: You may not impede the access 2 on a county public road. So -- 3 MS. SPENCER: Well, we did it and we didn't 4 know. And the reason we did it, actually, is because Mr. 5 Brown had had a couple of incidences of vandalism on his 6 property. He has a lake which you would never know is 7 there; it's way back in the hills, and someone came in and 8 pulled the plug and was draining his lake. And, with all 9 the water concerns, he was not too happy with that, and in 10 fact had to hire a diver to go in and replace the plate that 11 closed it, which cost him $200. About a week later, someone 12 did exactly the same thing, which, first time I wasn't real 13 worried, but the second time I really got a little 14 concerned, because I'm the only one who lives along that 15 road. Mr. Brown does not live on his property, and I am the 16 only house down there and I live alone, except when my 17 daughter's here. And I thought, well, you know, if they 18 would do something like that, I was a little concerned for 19 my safety, and so we discussed putting up a gate and decided 20 it would be a good idea, and we just did it. So -- 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, your alternatives at 22 this point are, one, take the gate down, or two, to come 23 before the Court and -- and apply for abandonment of that as 24 a public, county-maintained road. 25 MS. SPENCER: And that is what we would like 61 1 to do. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: But you have to understand 3 that you will have to maintain the road. We will not spend 4 any County funds to surface, shape, or -- 5 MS. SPENCER: I understand. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- or in any way participate 7 in the maintenance of that road. 8 MS. SPENCER: Yes, we understand that. From 9 our viewpoint, we would prefer to have the gate and not have 10 the County maintain the road. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, the 12 point is, until that happens, the gate needs to stay open. 13 And then, you know, the procedure can start to abandon the 14 road, and then just that procedure -- 15 MS. SPENCER: How long does that take? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: We can do it at -- I think we 17 have to have a public hearing. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: About 30 seconds, if 19 it's on the agenda properly. And -- but we need to talk 20 about all that. I mean, we need to talk about setting a 21 precedent. I mean, I think there's probably all kinds of 22 folks out there who will put a gate up if we'll just abandon 23 their road. As you can see here, in 1997 the county 24 taxpayers spent over $16,000 on resurfacing that particular 25 road. And I know that -- I know you didn't do that, put the 62 1 gate up just -- you got you a new road and then closed the 2 gate. I understand that. 3 MS. SPENCER: No, I really think it think it 4 was sort of one of those unintended consequences. Maybe, 5 you know, the road was improved and traffic increased. I 6 don't know. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who paid for the 9 gate? 10 MS. SPENCER: Mr. Brown and I paid for the 11 gate. We shared the cost. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is it not a 13 requirement on abandoning -- abandoning the road -- I think 14 it's a requirement that 100 percent of all the landowners 15 who have access to that road have to approve the request for 16 abandonment. 17 MS. SPENCER: That is Mr. Brown and I. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So there's only two 19 parcels that touch that road? 20 MS. SPENCER: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So it can be done. 22 But I think there are some ramifications of it. We probably 23 need to discuss it. We'd have to first get it on the agenda 24 for consideration. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That prompts me to 63 1 ask a question. If you look at the picture attached to this 2 item, the picture shows the road in question and the gate 3 across the road, but it also appears in that picture there's 4 a road directly to the right of it. Is there another road 5 there, and where is that? 6 MS. SPENCER: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where is this road? 8 MS. SPENCER: That's a private road. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a private 10 drive? 11 MR. JOHNSTON: Mm-hmm. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: The answer to the question 13 today, Mrs. Spencer, is that starting as soon as you go back 14 home, the gate must stay open. 15 MS. SPENCER: Okay. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: There is no alternative. The 17 gate must stay open. If you and Mr. Brown wish to petition 18 the Court to have that abandoned -- that road abandoned, 19 then you need to get in touch with -- I guess it would be 20 Truby to get on the agenda, or -- or Buster. 21 MS. SPENCER: I thought that's what we -- I 22 misunderstood. I thought that's what we were doing today. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, it's not couched in 24 that way, so we can't take action on that, but if that's 25 what you both want to do, then you need to talk to Road and 64 1 Bridge people, as well as your Commissioner, and get it on 2 -- get all of it filled out and get it on the agenda. 3 MS. SPENCER: And then do it -- have it on 4 the agenda maybe next month? 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, in two weeks, if 6 possible. 7 MS. SPENCER: Or two weeks. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: If you are ready. But, 9 again, until that happens, you must leave the gate open. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 11 MS. BAILEY: You'll have to set it once to 12 have a public hearing, and then have the public hearing 13 before you can abandon it. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have to have a public 15 hearing on abandoning a road? 16 MS. BAILEY: I think you have to. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we have to do it 18 legally. But the sooner you all come in, the sooner you can 19 do it. 20 MS. SPENCER: And we have to keep the gate 21 open. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: You must keep the gate open. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is this in a subdivision? 24 MS. SPENCER: No. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. It's not, okay. 65 1 That changes these -- it's not one of these rules. 2 MS. SPENCER: Well, and my concern, the 3 last -- Mr. Brown leases his property to some people who 4 hunt there, and they were there not this past weekend, but 5 the weekend before for the weekend. And at 2 a.m., a car 6 was driving in looking for a party. Now, I live at the end 7 of this road by myself. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 9 MS. SPENCER: I know I have to leave the gate 10 open. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Call the Sheriff's 12 Department and ask the Sheriff's Department to -- I think 13 the Sheriff's -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's the Sheriff 15 right on your righthand side. Rusty. There's your man 16 right there. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the Sheriff -- I 18 mean, 'cause that's something he can deal with, you know, 19 the problems that you're facing out there, and Mr. Brown are 20 facing. 21 MS. SPENCER: Okay. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 23 MS. SPENCER: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, 25 Mrs. Spencer. 66 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Item Number 7, 2 consider the preliminary replats of Lots 1 and 2 of 3 Creekview Estates, Unit 2, Precinct 1. Commissioner 4 Baldwin. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-oh, stand by. 6 Mr. Johnston? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: On your plat, there's a couple 8 word changes, and I think the surveyor is aware of that. 9 Doesn't qualify as a minor replat because the lot sizes are 10 below the -- below the limit, but they're changing the 11 boundary line. You can see the before and after picture 12 there. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we want to -- 15 MR. JOHNSTON: I think it involves a -- some 16 buildings that they had built that were -- actually crossed 17 the lot line, and they want to change the lines and allow 18 for that. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: How will they get access to 20 Lot 2A? 21 MR. JOHNSTON: Powers' place. How do they 22 access? 23 MR. VOELKEL: Powers' place is a public road 24 easement from Mountain Drive -- I'm Don Voelkel. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Off Mountain Drive? 67 1 MR. VOELKEL: Right. You see Powers' place 2 right up there, 30 foot by public road easement? It 3 accesses Lot 3 and Lot 2A. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: That's just access for that 6 lot, that and 3. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: What kind of water system and 8 wastewater system is out there? 9 MR. VOELKEL: Both -- all those tracts are on 10 a water system that I -- that Mr. Erlund has out there. And 11 they -- just plain septic tank, and I think Mr. Powers has 12 been talking with Charlie Wiedenfeld about, I think, to my 13 knowledge -- and Mr. Powers isn't here today, but I think 14 that he redid the septic tanks to get approval from Charlie 15 Wiedenfeld. I mean, that's in the process. And they're -- 16 both tracts are on public water system. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: We have this back from 18 U.G.R.A. telling what that is. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is that? 20 (Discussion off the record.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Are there any further 22 questions or comments regarding the preliminary replat of 23 Lots 1 and 2? 24 MR. JOHNSTON: As part of your approval, you 25 might mention our Subdivision Rules still call for a public 68 1 hearing for a replat and the 30-day notice published in the 2 paper. Since last September, the State law's changed. We 3 might put the verbiage in, give a variance to that, or 4 follow through with it. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Franklin asked me about 6 that and, you know, he just wanted me just to give a 7 variance or -- to waive it, I think, is probably more 8 appropriate. So it's not doing it, sort of, according to 9 the Subdivision Rules, but waive that requirement, and in 10 the motion, which I think -- 11 MR. JOHNSTON: Until such time the rules are 12 updated. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we have a motion? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Move to approve 15 preliminary replat of Lots 1 and 2 of Clearview Estates, 16 Unit 2, in Precinct 1, and to waive -- how do you want that 17 worded? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Requiring a public 19 hearing. 20 MR. JOHNSTON: Public hearing. The 21 requirement for a public hearing. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all it is? And 23 waive the requirement for public hearing. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 69 1 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve 2 the preliminary replat of Lots 1 and 2 of Clearview Estates, 3 Unit 2, Precinct 1, and waive the public hearing and public 4 notice requirements. Any further discussion? If not, all 5 in favor, raise your right hand. 6 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay. At 10 this time, we're going to take our mid-morning break. Let's 11 keep it as short as we can and return promptly at 20 minutes 12 until 11:00. 13 (Recess taken from 10:30 to 10:40 a.m.) 14 - - - - - - - - - - 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. It's 20 minutes 16 till 11:00 on Monday, June 12th, Year 2000. We'll return to 17 session. Next item for consideration is Item Number 8, 18 which is consider the amended preliminary plat of Privilege 19 Creek Ranches, Precinct 3. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is a subdivision 21 that we looked at previously. We had some questions 22 regarding a whole runway that goes through the north portion 23 of it, and we asked that we look at access to some of the 24 lots, and they've relooked at it and have really redrawn the 25 lots to the point that I think it would be a good 70 1 preliminary look at it. Anyway, Franklin? 2 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah. I believe the original 3 preliminary plat was divided up into Phase I and Phase II. 4 Phase II was not considered at that time, which consists of 5 Lots 8, 9, and 10, approximately -- yeah. Now they're 6 combining it all and making three big lots out of those. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And it was in 8 phases -- it was partially because there are access and road 9 issues, and they were trying to defer all that. So, he's 10 doing all the road issues right now, and he's getting access 11 to the difficult lots, 8 and 9, and they're trying to retain 12 the landing strip for public use. You know, he's just 13 deeding that to Lot 8, and that lane becomes the access road 14 to it, and it's well beyond the minimum requirements. 15 Access to Lot 9 has a 200-foot neck that sticks out. 16 MR. JOHNSTON: Kind of looks like a flag lot, 17 so it meets all the frontage requirements. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 143-acre flag lot. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we just call it a 20 large flag lot? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it does meet our 22 requirements, the way he has drawn it, and with the 23 topography out there, it's a reasonable way to do it. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: You say the landing strip 25 exceeds the minimum county requirements for road 71 1 construction? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. The width of it is 3 such that it -- it's a flag lot, but it's -- the way the -- 4 the road joins it, actually, it's the cul-de-sac where it 5 joins -- the lot joins. 6 MR. JOHNSTON: The lot will extend all the 7 way up to the cul-de-sac, where it's 100 foot wide. The 8 landing strip's probably about 200 foot wide. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, I guess the -- so, my 11 question is, is the landing strip going to be considered a 12 road, or is that just -- 13 MR. JOHNSTON: Part of the lot. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just part of the lot. 15 And if someone wants to land a plane on it, he can land it 16 on that portion. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: A lot on that cul-de-sac 18 between 6 and 5. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I will note -- I mean, 20 this is not my preference, but he's within the Subdivision 21 Rules in that the -- he got the -- the width on the -- the 22 neck that goes to the cul-de-sac's 100 feet wide, but our 23 rules only require 100 foot -- actually, it's 60 foot on the 24 cul-de-sac, and, you know, while it's not the ideal way to 25 do it, because it is kind of a long access to that one lot, 72 1 but it does meet our rules. So, motion to approve the 2 amended preliminary plat for Privilege Creek Ranches. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 5 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve the 6 amended preliminary plat of Privilege Creek Ranches in 7 Precinct 3. Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, 8 raise your right hand. 9 (Commissioners Baldwin, Letz, and Griffin indicated by raised hand that they were in 10 favor of the motion.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 12 (Commissioner Williams indicated by raised hand that he was opposed to the motion.) 13 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 15 9 is to consider the preliminary replat of Lots 144A, 145A, 16 146A, 147A, and 147B of Falling Water, Precinct 3. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is a -- another in, 18 I guess, a series we've looked at in Falling Water 19 Subdivision of modifying some lot lines, and the next one is 20 going to be a little bit of -- increase the size of the 21 subdivision. But this one, basically, we are taking Lot 144 22 and 145A and combining them into a larger lot, 145B. That's 23 the primary -- maybe the only -- is that the only thing -- 24 change on this? 25 MR. JOHNSTON: That's the only change. 73 1 MR. VOELKEL: No, excuse me, there's one 2 other change. I'm Don Voelkel. On the plat that 3 Mr. Hallenberger did, they didn't show any patent survey 4 lines, and the first time I did the first plat out there, I 5 just established the patent survey line to -- in the area 6 that we were, and then when -- when I did this one, I had -- 7 had that line extended, and it shouldn't have been. And, if 8 you see on the one above it, their patent line goes straight 9 through, and it shows 1308 and 1149. Well, that's been 10 revised on this one to show how it actually exists. So, I 11 did that in the same -- made it one replat. Those other 12 lots aren't going to change. But, it -- the only changes 13 are the patent survey's going to be amended to be correct, 14 and the only other change is combining those two lots into 15 145B. So, I mean, I just wanted to show you that they 16 are -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I forgot about the patent 18 lines that weren't correct earlier. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: And that as part of Falling -- 20 this plat and the next one, Falling Water has restrictions 21 on file here at the courthouse. And one of the 22 restrictions, 29, it's called Subdivision of Lots. No 23 further subdivision of platted lots in the subdivision shall 24 be permitted unless the owner has been -- has obtained 25 unanimous approval of the association's board of directors. 74 1 I mentioned that to Don last week, but I haven't received 2 anything on that. I don't know who the board of directors 3 are, but we haven't received anything like that. That is a 4 restriction on these lots. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the, I mean, 6 preliminary plat, I don't think we need that, but if that's 7 a requirement -- 8 MR. JOHNSTON: Sounds like something we might 9 need before the final. 10 MR. VOELKEL: If y'all want to make a 11 contingency, let me show you something. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just think it's 13 something that will need to be handled prior to approval of 14 final plat. 15 MR. VOELKEL: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move for approval of 18 the preliminary replat of Lots 144A, 145A, 146A, 147A, and 19 147B -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- in Falling Water 22 Subdivision. Second? 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 24 second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court approve the 25 preliminary replat of Lots 144A, 145A, 146A, 147A and 147B 75 1 of the Falling Water Subdivision in Precinct 3, Kerr County. 2 Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your 3 right hand. 4 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item, 8 Item Number 10, consider the preliminary -- consider the 9 replat of Falling Water, Lots 124 and 131. 10 MR. JOHNSTON: No one has plats of those? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, let's table that 12 for a minute. I don't think we're going to have -- 13 MR. JOHNSTON: You can use mine. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. We don't have any 15 copies of this. Franklin? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well -- 17 MR. JOHNSTON: It's a replat of two lots, 18 making three lots out of it. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Is this a preliminary 20 replat or a final? 21 MR. VOELKEL: Preliminary. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Preliminary. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: The agenda says final, but 24 this is preliminary? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Actually, it just says 76 1 "replat." Should be preliminary. 2 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah, first time it's being 3 done. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Making three lots out 5 of two lots? Is that what I'm hearing? 6 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes. The sizes -- you have 7 them there. They're larger than the minimum. It has a 8 water system. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2.3 and 3.01. They're 10 all within the -- 11 MR. JOHNSTON: The old restriction being the 12 previous notification and a letter from, I guess, the water 13 company or T.N.R.C.C. that they have an adequate number of 14 water caps for the extra lot? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 16 MR. JOHNSTON: That would apply to that. The 17 other one was -- that's -- the other one took a lot away, so 18 we average out on these two. These two are -- these two 19 average out. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, again, I think the 21 same -- that letter will be required before final plat 22 approval, along with the board of directors are required to 23 approve adding and subtracting. Any questions? 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Only the -- just a reminder 25 that the Court requires this material be provided at the 77 1 time the agenda is put together so we have the opportunity 2 to review it, or at least so that's -- 3 MR. JOHNSTON: We have the plats in our 4 office. 5 MR. VOELKEL: Is that what you don't have, 6 the plats? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: We felt like we sent them 8 over. Somehow they got lost. 9 MR. VOELKEL: We delivered 12 copies. They 10 don't sign the thing until we deliver them. I had -- my 11 secretary was bringing some more over, but she -- evidently, 12 she hasn't gotten here yet. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I make a motion to 14 approve the preliminary replat of Falling Water, Lot 124 and 15 Lot 131, Falling Water Subdivision. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 18 seconded by Commissioner Williams, that we approve the 19 preliminary replat of Falling Water, Lot Numbers 124 and 20 131, of Precinct 3. Any further discussion? If not, all in 21 favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay. I 78 1 think we're out of the plat business for a while. Next item 2 is Item Number 11, which is Sheriff Hierholzer, which is to 3 consider and discuss the insurance and benefits for 4 part-time employee. Sheriff Hierholzer, good morning. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir. This -- what 6 this is, when we were straightening out all the positions 7 and everything, trying to get all the positions back to 8 where they belonged, we took Don Gray and put him in the 9 part-time position, because that's what he was. The thing 10 is, Don was always getting insurance and other benefits, 11 'cause he's working 20 hours a week, okay? Just over that 12 19 and a half. They dropped -- Don's main reason for 13 working, of course, is to keep the County insurance. That's 14 why he worked part-time. They ended up trying to drop his 15 part-time insurance -- or his insurance right now, and I 16 understand that, 'cause if you look at the County's 17 eligibility for health insurance, it says in there that you 18 have to be a full-time employee working 40 hours a week, 19 okay, to be eligible for County insurance. The thing is, 20 there's several part-time employees that don't work that -- 21 that are getting it, other ones even in my department. And 22 I need to know where we go with that. I'd like for Don to 23 be able to keep his County insurance working 20 hours a 24 week, but I don't know what we do, because it's not fair if 25 he doesn't and the other ones do. 79 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Barbara, do you have any 2 suggestion? 3 MS. NEMEC: Well, I know there was one 4 employee in that department that was done by court order. 5 He came in and requested, along with the Sheriff back then, 6 to be put on insurance benefits -- and this was years ago -- 7 and the Court then allowed that to happen. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Are there other -- 9 MS. NEMEC: Then since then, in '98 there 10 were three employees that, during the budget process, the 11 Court was sent a letter requesting the same thing. This was 12 not done by court order, it was just done in the budget 13 process. So -- and then there's another employee who 14 doesn't work -- and it's not in that department -- doesn't 15 work the 40 hours, so he would not be eligible for 16 insurance, but he does work over 19 and a half hours -- and 17 we're being told he doesn't work over 19 and a half hours. 18 Everybody knows he does. So, this is something that really 19 needs to be cleared up, because when things arise like this, 20 then not everybody is on the same page, so to speak. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's what -- I'm 22 trying to make it equal for all the employees. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is -- what does 24 it take to be a full-time employee? How many hours do you 25 work before you're considered a full-time employee? 80 1 MS. NEMEC: In our policy -- in our insurance 2 policy, it states that you must work over 40 hours -- that 3 you must work 40 hours to be a full-time employee. Because 4 the way we got around it the last time is the insurance 5 company said this is your policy. You're partially 6 self-insured. You can -- you can make the policy. You can 7 bend the policy if you feel that you need to, because we're 8 partially self-insured. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where does the 19 and 10 a half hours come in? 11 MS. NEMEC: Nineteen and a half hours is 12 retirement. Retirement states that if an employee works 13 over 19 and a half hours, then they have to be on retirement 14 benefits. And the way you get around that is that you hire 15 someone and you say, "You're not going to have retirement 16 benefits, 'cause you're not going to go over the 19 and a 17 half hours." And then during the year, you end up noticing 18 that you're working that person over 19 and a half hours, 19 but your intention when you hired him or her was not that 20 they'd be working over the 19 and a half hours. So, in a 21 case like that, then you then hire him with the intent to 22 work over those hours, so then you're okay with the 23 retirement system. Now, the problem with Don Gray having 24 retirement and insurance was that he was filling a 25 part-time/full-time position, budgeted line item, along with 81 1 another employee. That other employee gave up his rights to 2 the insurance and the retirement and signed a statement to 3 that effect, because he had another job that -- that had 4 insurance and retirement. So, therefore, those benefits 5 were allowed for the other person that was filling that 6 part -- that full-time position to have, and that's where we 7 are right now. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do we have any other 9 so-called full-time/part-time employees? 10 MS. NEMEC: No. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or regularly 12 scheduled part-time employees, if you will? 13 MS. NEMEC: No. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We do not? 15 MS. NEMEC: That position was created years 16 ago, just to accommodate whatever the situation was at the 17 time. That -- that position has been there for years up 18 until now, and that's what it was called in the position 19 schedule. It was called part-time/full-time, but it was out 20 of the full-time line item. And that's another thing which 21 stipulates whether you get benefits or not. If you are paid 22 out of a full-time line item, you're allowed benefits 23 because you are considered full-time. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I say this two or 25 three times a year. I think that it's so dumb. You're 82 1 either a full-time employee or you're a part-time employee. 2 And we go through this kind of thing every year. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We either have a 4 policy or we don't have a policy. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I think what the 7 Sheriff has really brought to us consistently in the last 8 month is an effort to get away from that dichotomy, and we 9 need to be conscious of that. The issue before us is do we 10 make an exception and continue to provide insurance benefits 11 to this particular employee? I mean, it may be something we 12 need to look at further in our budget deliberations on all 13 of them. Do we decide, okay, we're going to have a firm 14 policy, or a case-by-case basis? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I think my 16 recommendation is that through the rest of this period, the 17 budget year, we continue to grant the insurance. However, I 18 think that my -- I think all the employees -- you know, the 19 Court -- it probably needs to be an agenda item to let us 20 set the policy, you know, so we can advise the employees in 21 plenty of time. Say, starting next budget year, full-time 22 employees only are getting insurance coverage, if that's 23 what the Court chooses. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That was going to be 25 my suggestion, is that we continue the coverage for the 83 1 remainder of this budget year, and address this as part of 2 our budget process, to establish a policy, which -- and I 3 would lean toward this full-time or -- either a full-time or 4 a part-time, and then we have a policy on what coverage is 5 provided for retirement, you know, insurance, et cetera, 6 starting in the next fiscal year. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have no problem with 8 that. We just need a set deal where everybody is being 9 treated equally. Otherwise, I'm going to get in problems 10 with employees; one saying, well, he's part-time; he's 11 getting this. He's not part-time -- or he's part-time, he's 12 not getting it. We need to just come up with a good policy 13 on exactly what is meant by full-time, number of hours 14 worked or whatever, what is meant by the 19 and a half hours 15 or whatever. It just needs to be a set deal where we know. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Gray is currently 17 receiving the benefits, so we would need to continue them? 18 MS. NEMEC: He is currently receiving them. 19 I had some paperwork to delete him, because we got a letter 20 from the Court saying he was part-time and was going to be 21 paid out of a part-time line item, and that's when the 22 Sheriff came to talk to me and said, you know, he -- he 23 thinks -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, my question 25 goes to the ability to pay for the benefits. He's currently 84 1 receiving them, so we would be continuing them and they are 2 provided for in the budget; is that correct? 3 MS. NEMEC: Yes, they are provided for in the 4 budget. And -- and that I know of, it's only him and 5 another employee, and I believe that the problem with the 6 other employee will be corrected once the new budget -- 7 because I believe that employee is going to go full-time. 8 And then this letter that was sent during the budget process 9 in 1998 on these other three employees, that was set up real 10 quick. I said, "Well, then you're getting 7 percent off of 11 your paycheck," and so then they didn't want the benefits 12 any more, so we never had to go there with these. So, that 13 I know of, it's only those two employees. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Really, in the new 15 budget year, it should just be one employee that is a 16 problem. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If the budget goes -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I understand that. 19 So, you're straightening out part of it just in the budget 20 process, anyway, and then we need, I think, to establish a 21 policy as far as beginning the next budget year on exactly 22 what part-time and full-time is and who's -- who gets what 23 benefits. 24 MS. NEMEC: You know, and that's our call. 25 If we want to say that an employee earns insurance if he 85 1 works 40 hours a week, that is our call. We can change it 2 to 30 hours. I think at one time it was 32 hours, and then 3 we changed it, like four years ago, to 40. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's our call because 5 we're self-insured? 6 MS. NEMEC: We're partially self-insured, and 7 we're the ones that determine what kind of benefits we want. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And none of this is 9 regulated by F.S.L.A.? Did I get that right? And -- 10 MS. NEMEC: As long as you don't put more 11 than 40 hours, you're okay. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And then -- but 13 isn't the law enforcement different from regular County 14 employees? 15 MS. NEMEC: Not when it comes to -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hourly things? 17 MS. NEMEC: When it comes to hourly, yes. 18 Not when it comes to insurance. Not when it comes to 19 insurance benefits, vacation, or sick time, because those 20 are strictly benefits that the County is giving the 21 employees. We don't have to have sick leave or vacation. 22 That's something that is given to them, so we're not guided 23 by F.L.S.A. when it comes to those kind of benefits. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, I agree with you 25 guys, that we continue the benefits through this budget 86 1 year -- through this fiscal year. Is that what you're 2 saying? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that a motion, or do 4 you want me to make a motion? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I kind of want 6 to second this one. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 8 we continue the insurance benefits for Don Gray as a 9 part-time employee through the balance of this budget year. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 12 seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court continue -- 13 approve the continuation of insurance benefits for Don Gray, 14 an employee of the Sheriff's Department, as a part-time 15 employee through the remainder of this budget year only. 16 Any further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your 17 right hand. 18 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item is Item Number 12, 22 which is consider and discuss application for a COPS grant 23 for school resource officers. Sheriff Hierholzer. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My Chief Deputy, if 25 y'all haven't met him, James Graham, has been the one having 87 1 to do the research on all this. He's got a correction he 2 needed to pass out to y'all; then he'll do the presentation. 3 MR. GRAHAM: Basically, what we're attempting 4 to do is to apply for a federal grant for an S.R.O., School 5 Resource Officer. These officers -- initially, we're asking 6 for three officers. Right now we have one S.R.O. officer, 7 and two officers that are certified to teach D.A.R.E. We 8 wanted to try to incorporate these so we can cover all the 9 school districts in the county. I've talked to the 10 superintendents of most of the schools -- or all of the 11 schools. They are all in agreement, and they fully support 12 the program. My one problem is that -- and it's not a 13 problem. We have to have a partnership established before 14 we can apply for the grant. I'm meeting with Ingram ISD 15 tonight at their school board. I haven't gotten any 16 negative feedback from them, so if we can get that one 17 committal, then, you know, there's no problem, as long as we 18 have the committal. And I also intend to send letters of 19 intent from the other school districts along with the grant, 20 and I've gotten letters of intent from all of them. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Including Center 22 Point? 23 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. Yes, sir, Center Point, 24 Divide, Hunt, Ingram, Kerrville. We're -- as a matter of 25 fact, one of our officers is supposed to be meeting with 88 1 Dr. Jackson today to get that. But through telephone 2 conversations and everything else, he supports it. The way 3 the grant cap reads, they allow us $125,000 per officer, you 4 know, over the 3-year period. Our figures come to just 5 under that -- or quite a bit under it. $95,000, I believe. 6 $95,273.54. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: James, am I going to 8 be able to see that figure somewhere? 9 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir, it should be on Page 6 10 of the handout that I gave you. Our -- our contribution is 11 a difference in the Social Security, what you see there. 12 First year is $334.88. Reason being is, I believe we -- 13 Ms. Nemec told me we charge 7.65 on Social Security, and 14 they will just allow the 6.2 percent. So, that's the 15 only -- which is a bargain. 16 MS. NEMEC: The other part is the Medicaid. 17 MR. GRAHAM: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, our 18 expense or out-of-pocket is going to be very minimal per 19 officer. This that you have is designed on one officer, 20 which is what they, you know, require for the grant. We're 21 requesting three, but the figure you see is for one officer 22 only. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So we do this -- you 24 put in all this paperwork for one and do this repeatedly for 25 each officer? 89 1 MR. GRAHAM: No, sir. In the beginning of 2 the grant, it will ask number of officers requested. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. And that's -- 4 it's three times or four times this number? 5 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How will the officers be, 7 I guess, distributed? I mean, you've got, obviously, more 8 districts than officers. 9 MR. GRAHAM: Right now, we -- I haven't 10 discussed the -- well, I've sort of discussed the logistics 11 with the Sheriff. What I have in mind is the three officers 12 be dedicated to -- one to Center Point, one to Kerrville, 13 one to Ingram. Then we'll have the other two officers sort 14 of float. Hunt and Divide is -- historically have brought 15 their kids to Ingram on the D.A.R.E. But, you know, I don't 16 want to eliminate them out of the circle. I'd like to see 17 we'll have two other officers that we can put, you know, at 18 those schools. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What about Comfort? Half 20 the kids are basically over in this county, and the other 21 portion of it is in Kendall County. 22 MR. GRAHAM: Well, the main -- 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The school itself is in 24 Kendall County. We couldn't supply an officer into Kendall 25 County school districts, or it would be just -- no, sir, 90 1 it's mainly -- what we want to do, it's not so much these 2 other two officers he's talking about. It's the three 3 officers being mainly based at the three major schools in 4 Kerr County, and then, still, those three officers, 5 incorporated in their duties would also be the D.A.R.E. 6 program for these other schools. You know, for the middle 7 schools, and that's where they would be bouncing back and 8 forth on the different school districts. So, we had three 9 officers total for all the school districts. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would it make sense to 11 have two officers, one in Kerrville and split one between 12 Ingram and Center Point, being the size of the districts? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not really, because the 14 size of the districts is, you know, one objective, but the 15 main thing we're getting into is the size of the classrooms 16 and the number of classes that they're teaching at each of 17 these schools, which really stays about the same. When 18 you're teaching D.A.R.E. and you're teaching law enforcement 19 classes, whether it's at Center Point or at Kerrville, 20 you're still going to have the same number of classes that 21 you actually teach, whether it be 8th grade or 6th grade or 22 up in the high school stuff. 23 MR. GRAHAM: This -- with the addition of the 24 officers, we can expand four programs. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And is our understanding 91 1 that after three years, we pick up 100 percent of all costs? 2 MR. GRAHAM: Yes, sir. The grant will 3 terminate in three years. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we're increasing 5 our -- the Sheriff's Department employees by three. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: By three, in three 7 years? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll be paying for these 9 in the future. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And it says in there 11 that you have to guarantee that for at least one budget year 12 after the end of the grant. You don't have to guarantee it 13 for every year from then on, but at least one year. But, I 14 would imagine in three years, the department's going to need 15 to grow about that much, so we'd be asking for that type of 16 personnel, irregardless. Just gives us a 3-year head start 17 with these guys. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This will all be 19 reflected in your 5-year plan? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 5-year plan? I haven't 21 seen a 5-year plan yet. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it three or five 23 years? 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Three. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In your 3-year budget 92 1 plan. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not reflected in the 3 3-year, 'cause hopefully this will take care of three years. 4 You'll have to wait till next year. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: When will we know about the 6 grant? 7 MR. GRAHAM: I have to have it submitted, 8 postmarked no later than Friday, so -- and I don't know -- 9 usually I don't -- I'm not experienced enough to give you a 10 time frame on that. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So what we need to do 12 is -- are we being asked to approve the application? 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. And part of the 14 approval of the application is a commitment on behalf of the 15 Court to fund these three positions for at least one budget 16 year, these three positions in these responsibilities for at 17 least one budget year after -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: After. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- the grant terminates. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think one of the things 21 that -- you know, during the first three years, or during 22 that fourth year, I think we should look to the school 23 districts to help fund that position. I think that 24 groundwork needs to be set, and they need to be advised of 25 that so their long-term planning -- they're aware of that, 93 1 because this is a -- I mean, I don't mind paying a portion 2 of it, and I think they probably would go along with it, but 3 that's something we should look to the school districts for 4 help on. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would hope within 6 three years, if we have them in the school for three years, 7 the school will see the benefit -- we'll all see the 8 benefit, and at the end of that time the schools would want 9 to keep those officers in there. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I'm in favor 11 of the project and that application. I just have a question 12 as to whether or not we can commit four years in advance 13 funding. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Legally, we can't. But -- if 16 it has -- money has to be appropriated every year. But we 17 can -- just like any long-term contract that we sign, you 18 know, we can contractually do it, but with the understanding 19 that the appropriation of funds has to come on an annual 20 basis. I think that -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One year. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's how we're able to take 23 4-year leases on automobiles and 4- or 5-year financing on 24 bulldozers and things like that. We can't commit the money 25 more than one budget year in advance, but we can 94 1 contractually obligate to appropriate the funds. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Several years ago, the 4 former Sheriff came in with something similar to this. It 5 wasn't a grant; it was just wanting to put law enforcement 6 in the public schools, and at that time it was presented to 7 the Court that K.I.S.D. would pick up the salary tab, 8 period. So, I would think that they -- maybe not jump for 9 joy, but should be happy to participate in this program in 10 that third year or however many years we do that. I would 11 hope we would talk with them about that. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have and we will continue 13 to do so. 14 MR. GRAHAM: Yes. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 16 comments? If not, I'd entertain a motion regarding the 17 approval of the COPS School Resource Officer application. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I move that 19 the Court approve the request of the Sheriff to apply for 20 the COPS Grant School Resource Officers application for 21 three officers for use in our public school system. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And, if I may, the 23 motion may also include the Judge to be able to sign his 24 portion of any of these documents where it's got to have the 25 executive officer of the county, and it must also include 95 1 the commitment to retain the officer for one year after 2 this. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Isn't that what you said? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's exactly what I 5 said. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And I second. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 8 Williams, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 9 approve the application by the Sheriff's Department of the 10 COPS grant application, authorize the County Judge to sign 11 the application as necessary, and constitute a commitment on 12 the part of the Kerr County Commissioners Court to fund the 13 officers who are hired as a result of the successful grant 14 application for at least one budget year following 15 termination of the grant. Any further discussion? If not, 16 all in favor, raise your right hand. 17 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Thank you. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good work. At this time, we 24 need to deviate from our -- somewhat from our schedule in 25 order to take up some items that were scheduled by time. 96 1 We'll take up Item 20, which is consider and discuss the 2 project -- progress on the classification study and 3 compensation study, and consider further direction. 4 Barbara, do you want to introduce this for us? 5 MS. NEMEC: Well, I think most of you have 6 met Dr. Michael Nash. He is the one that's doing our 7 classification study, and he was around, oh, I guess a week 8 or two interviewing some people, so he's here to give us an 9 update on the process of the study. Mr. Nash? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Morning, Dr. Nash. Welcome 11 back. 12 MR. NASH: Good morning, Judge. How are you? 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Fine, sir. 14 MR. NASH: Should I just start? 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, sir. 16 MR. NASH: Okay. My goal this morning is to 17 give you an update as to where we are in your project. 18 First of all, thank you for hiring us to do this work. I 19 hope -- we think we have some positive recommendations that 20 will improve the way in which you compensate people in the 21 county. Probably all you want to do this morning is receive 22 the little summary report that we have and maybe ask Barbara 23 or the Judge to get back to us on the direction you want us 24 to follow as we conclude this -- this study. 25 I'd like to introduce my associate, Dr. Mike 97 1 Walker out of Austin University, and he's going to show you 2 the -- a representative sample of the job descriptions. 3 We're rewriting all of your job descriptions, and he's going 4 to give you an idea of approximately how many people we've 5 spoken to. One of our goals, of course, is to look at 6 everyone's title and recommend titles, and we're well along 7 in that process, and to rewrite everyone's job description. 8 Michael will explain that. But, probably more importantly 9 and, certainly for your employees, of more interest is what 10 the salary survey data is looking like and what my current 11 thinking along those lines are, and so that's where we want 12 to spend most of the time, and where you'll probably want to 13 do most of your thinking after you receive the material. 14 Michael? 15 MR. WALKER: I have a sample of the job 16 descriptions. We started out by having organization 17 sessions where all the employees completed a job description 18 questionnaire. Then we followed up with interviews with 19 individual employees. We interviewed approximately 87 20 employees, which was approaching 50 percent of the staff of 21 the county. We then combined -- and what I'm in the process 22 of doing now is combining that interview data, the 23 questionnaire data, and existing job descriptions to rewrite 24 job descriptions. This is the proposed format that we're 25 going to use, and I'll briefly go through it. And what I 98 1 would like from you here today, or in the near future, is if 2 you have any recommendations or concerns about this format, 3 if you would let me know, 'cause I'm in the process of 4 writing them all up right now. 5 It starts out with just some initial 6 descriptive data with regard to job title, department, who 7 reports to whom, F.L.S.A. status, preparation, prepared by, 8 and approval. Then it goes into, really, the meat of the 9 job descriptions with the summary, which is just a general 10 statement of what the purpose of the job is. The essential 11 duties and responsibilities are listed out there. They try 12 not to be too specific, but to capture the major 13 responsibilities of the job. The remainder of the job 14 description under the -- or, I'm sorry, the next thing that 15 will be included in all of them is a supervisory 16 responsibility, and that will be included in them all. And 17 for this one, this position has no supervisory 18 responsibilities, and they will state that. The remainder 19 of it deals with qualifications. 20 The two core elements under the 21 qualifications heading would -- are in regard to the 22 knowledge of and ability to perform those job duties and 23 responsibilities. This is where we'll be more specific in 24 specific knowledge and abilities that are required for a 25 specific position. The other general topics down there are 99 1 also related to qualifications with regard to education, 2 language skills, mathematical skills, reasoning ability, and 3 any certifications that they might need, physical demands, 4 and work environment. The -- the purpose of those is to 5 identify what skills, education level, any certificates they 6 will need. Again, this is the portion that tends to be more 7 legally oriented, and will be worded very carefully. 8 The initial part of the qualifications will 9 be edited after the review of the department heads and 10 individual employees, because the goal will be to get these 11 to the department heads in the next couple of weeks. And, I 12 believe July 10th you've set a date for appeals, so anyone 13 that is dissatisfied with the title classification, the job 14 title, can appeal that at that time, and also provide 15 feedback. We're not going to require appeals for editorial 16 revisions of the -- of the documents. They can just be 17 submitted, and we will resubmit those to the board. So, if 18 you have any questions or concerns about that outline or the 19 format of this, you'd like to modify it or change it in any 20 way, I would appreciate some feedback as soon as possible. 21 Doesn't have to be today, though. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: And, Dr. Walker, this does 23 have all the necessary F.L.S.A. buzz words and -- 24 MR. WALKER: Yes. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- categories covered so that 100 1 when you're finished, if an employee ever challenged the job 2 description on F.L.S.A. standards, we'd be confident saying, 3 well, here it is? 4 MR. WALKER: Yes. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: They could question the 6 content, but not necessarily the -- 7 MR. WALKER: Correct. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- the format or the 9 verbiage? 10 MR. WALKER: Correct. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Which is important for us. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 13 MR. WALKER: I'll turn it over to the -- 14 unless have you any other questions? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 17 MR. NASH: Okay. Now we get to the -- 18 probably the more controversial material. What I'd like to 19 do is, first of all, say that you are looking at a -- a work 20 in progress. I do have a findings at this point, and I do 21 have opinions and recommendations at this point, but it 22 is -- would you pass that out? It is still a work in 23 progress. You are the first people to see this data. 24 Ms. Nemec has not seen it; none of the department heads have 25 seen it. So, understand that it's still preliminary. What 101 1 you're looking at, gentlemen, is a list of the jurisdictions 2 with which we compared your compensation practices. You may 3 recall that Judge Henneke was, I think, very wise in 4 allowing me to recommend a procedure whereby the consultant, 5 Nash and Company, would select some jurisdictions, the 6 department heads would select some jurisdictions, and, 7 representing you, the Judge selected jurisdictions. We then 8 went through the process of gathering salary information 9 from those jurisdictions, and you see the results. 10 There were, unfortunately, three -- did you 11 give every -- do we have one sheet left? No, that's okay. 12 I think there were -- I think I remember them. We couldn't 13 get anything out of Cherokee, Kendall, and the information 14 Bastrop sent us was -- was very dicey. One of the things 15 that you need to be aware of -- and if you want me to do it 16 differently, you need to tell me. You don't have to tell me 17 today, but you need to tell me sometime fairly soon -- is 18 that a number of the counties that we looked at do not have 19 pay grades like you have a pay grade 12, pay grade 14, a pay 20 grade 20. These counties don't have pay grades, meaning 21 they have no minimum numbers and they have no maximums. 22 They -- they just send people a check and people keep coming 23 to work, and so there's not -- I hate to say it that way, 24 but that -- that's kind of how they do it. They don't 25 really have a systematic approach to pay grades. And, 102 1 you'll see that those folks are mentioned. And so, they 2 sent us actual salary data. We have the actual pay, rather 3 than the minimum and the maximum for a position. 4 Some organizations -- for example, Bexar 5 County, that I'm also working with at this time, they have a 6 very formal system with minimums and maximums, but they 7 wouldn't give us any actual data. So, what you're going to 8 be seeing in the next couple of minutes is, I used all the 9 data that I thought was defensible and usable, meaning I 10 used the actuals where we had them, I used the opportunity 11 or the maximums where we had them, and you'll see the 12 results of that analysis in just a minute. If that concerns 13 you or worries you, we also have -- I also have an analysis 14 where I pulled all of the ranges out and just used actual 15 data, and then another analysis where I pulled all of the 16 actual data out and just used ranges. I've done this about 17 a hundred times. My opinion is that the best thing to do is 18 to use all the data that we have for you folks to make your 19 decision, because when I cut it the other two ways, it 20 really doesn't change very much what I'm about to show you 21 now. 22 Okay. Michael? Oh, I'm sorry, I wanted to 23 keep one and give you the rest. Thank you. As I said, this 24 is a work in progress. And as I sat in the audience, I 25 caught a couple of little -- couple of little errors, so 103 1 forgive us our -- forgive us our typos. At this point, 2 we're more -- more focusing on trying to get the overall 3 preliminary results across. I very deliberately, on the 4 cover, put something that -- Michael tells me it does not 5 like a trial balloon, but that's what it was supposed to be. 6 This is a -- almost a suggestion at this point rather than a 7 set of recommendations. What you're looking at, gentlemen, 8 is some quick comments on your current practice, then an 9 analysis of where you pay people within your ranges. 10 I'm going to be showing you, essentially, two 11 kinds of results. One is where your ranges are, and 12 secondly, where you pay people within the ranges. And 13 you'll see in a number of instances, your ranges are 14 competitive. In other words, the opportunity that your 15 people have is okay. But where they're paid within the 16 range in some departments, I believe, is a problem. So, 17 you're going to be asked ultimately, eventually, to make two 18 kinds of decisions. One is where you want to put your range 19 opportunity, and I'm suggesting in the middle of the pack. 20 And then, secondly, if -- Michael tells me it's okay to use 21 this metaphor -- change from carp fishing -- right? 22 MR. WALKER: Mm-hmm. 23 MR. NASH: Carp fishing to a little more bass 24 fishing. He tells me it's okay to use that metaphor. I'm a 25 Michigan boy; we wouldn't -- we wouldn't eat catfish there. 104 1 He says catfish is not a good metaphor here. If you look at 2 the comment section just quickly, last point, you needed the 3 study, and you needed the study for a number of reasons. 4 You have some job titles that are in different pay grades; 5 in other words, people doing exactly the same thing that are 6 in different grades. That's generally considered not a good 7 idea in our business. You have some job titles that are in 8 the same grade that are not doing the same thing at all. 9 For example, there's a secretarial position and receptionist 10 position over in the law enforcement office, which are two 11 jobs with different degrees of responsibility, but they're 12 in the same grade. Those are the kinds of things you should 13 fix. 14 And, I want to -- and I hate to tell you 15 this, but I've done this a hundred times and I think you 16 probably should hear it. I'd say there was more cynicism 17 and less -- if not enthusiasm, less -- well, there was just 18 more cynicism than I typically encounter, because a number 19 of folks felt that no matter what we said and did and how 20 well we did it, so forth and so on, nothing was going to 21 change. So, I hope -- I hope you prove them wrong. I'm 22 sure you will. 23 Let me move to Page 4 next. You recall that 24 you have 12 steps in your pay grades. The minimum, Step 1, 25 the maximum, Step 12. Okay? And I use the -- the carp 105 1 metaphor. That would be the bottom, the 1. And, to me, the 2 bass would be probably a 5 or a 6. Maybe, you know, closer 3 to the middle. Okay. And -- and -- what kind of fish jumps 4 real high? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Red snapper. 6 MR. NASH: Red snapper, okay. Red snapper 7 might be the 10's and the 12's. What I did here -- because 8 I'm going to argue that you should be thinking about two 9 things. One is, are your ranges okay? And, in many cases, 10 they are. And then -- but are you -- you know, are you too 11 low in those -- in those ranges? And, in many cases, I 12 think you are too low. On this page, you see a rank order, 13 an average step in grade by department. Okay, an average 14 step in grade by department. I want to point out a couple 15 of things. Comment Number 2, that no department -- no 16 department has the majority of its employees in the middle 17 of the salary range. Now -- and I know we only have so much 18 time, but I have other documents I can show you that the 19 average county that we looked at in this sample, they're 20 probably two steps off the bottom, okay? So they're not 21 necessarily bass fishing, either, but they got -- you know, 22 they're off the bottom. They're probably -- they would be 23 the equivalent of about your Step 3, if I look at the 24 actuals. 25 The other thing I wanted to point out -- and, 106 1 no offense. We do have the Sheriff here, right? Okay. I 2 think out of all the departments I -- and I spent a lot of 3 time over in law enforcement. I think some of the folks 4 over there have their bobbers down. They're -- you know, 5 it's getting better. It's getting better, but I think one 6 of the reasons why they have their bobbers down is the -- 7 is, if you look at where people are in the pay grade, most 8 of them are real low within the grade. And I think that 9 also contributes to turnover. 10 Now, the next page, 5, shows you our first -- 11 my first attempt at showing you where you are in the market, 12 and beginning to give you some idea of how, ultimately, 13 working with you and your department heads, we may change 14 your current structure. From the highest on the page, those 15 people are the best paid within the market, down to the 16 bottom, those people are the worst paid in the market. And 17 if you see, there's one -- there's a couple of jobs, 18 actually, that I think are probably paid more than they 19 should be, a couple of titles. And you -- most folks will 20 just leave those alone, but you might -- there are reasons 21 why I think you would want to look at that one job that's 22 way over market. There are some jobs that appear to be 23 paid -- they have good opportunities in the market. An 24 example will be your court reporter has a good 25 opportunity -- has a good compensation within the market. 107 1 Now, that job does not officially have a grade. That's why 2 those funny little brackets are around the 24. So, that's 3 what it -- that's kind of what it would be graded if they 4 actually were graded. 5 The next column shows what the grade would be 6 at the median. The median means we took -- maybe it's okay 7 to hand out one sheet of paper. I'm going to give Ms. Nemec 8 the entire salary survey preliminary results at this point, 9 and I'm going to hand out -- let's do -- let's give them a 10 packet of the -- of the jailer, okay? What I do when I 11 gather the salary data is I arrange it from high to low. 12 And, remember, I mentioned some folks have ranges, some 13 folks have just actuals. So, the sheet you're using shows 14 three different ways it's -- it's -- it's cut up. 15 But, going back to this exhibit here, which 16 is kind of where you want to do your main thinking, the 17 green sheets are an example of where I said I think it's 18 okay to use everything, because I tried it using just 19 partial data and I got pretty much where I got when I used 20 everything, so I'd rather use everything. This white sheet 21 shows using everything. And, for example, if we just 22 take -- we take the jailer, your opportunity, the maximum of 23 your salary range for jailer is competitive. And that 24 probably will shock most of your jailers, and they'd 25 probably like to have me as a customer. But, where they're 108 1 paid in their grade -- where they're paid in their grade is, 2 the average jailer is at the very bottom step. So, they're 3 making, I think $9.11 an hour. Like when I stayed at the 4 Motel 6 this weekend, it will take your average jailer 5 almost a day's pay to be sleeping in a Motel 6, the cheapest 6 motel in town. So, there's a good example of where we -- we 7 found the ranges okay, the opportunities okay, but if you 8 don't do something about helping the jailers move up off the 9 bottom, I think you'll continue to have people with their 10 bobbers down over there. 11 On the other hand, if you look at the 12 sergeant position, okay, or the equipment mechanic 13 position -- you see that down towards the bottom there? 14 When we took your maximum opportunity -- we took your 15 maximum opportunity and we compared it with the 16 opportunities in the pay rates in the survey, those jobs 17 were considerably below the market, okay? So, this sheet 18 answers the question, if we keep your pay grade structure -- 19 which I think is okay; it's kind of a classic structure -- 20 but we reallocate some of these titles to different grades, 21 which would be the job titles that would get reallocated to 22 a higher grade -- this gives you an example of that, 23 okay? -- is that that's probably the key sheet. 24 Now, I give you this next sheet with a little 25 bit of fear and trepidation. 109 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would you clarify 2 something for me right quick? Back though the jailer 3 here -- 4 MR. NASH: Yes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Corrections Officer, 6 Detention Officer, Jailer, Jailer Guard, et cetera. Is that 7 all the same animal? 8 MR. NASH: Those are the titles that are 9 being used in -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: By that particular 11 county? 12 MR. NASH: Yes, sir. Now, it's -- 13 Commissioner Baldwin, right? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is correct. 15 MR. NASH: Okay. Mr. Baldwin -- Commissioner 16 Baldwin, when Michael Walker and I come back with the title 17 recommendations, you will see that we're suggesting your 18 jailer title be changed to Corrections Officer. That will 19 be one of our recommendations. We're not boring you with 20 all that detail now. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 22 MR. NASH: But we think that's a more 23 professional title. That's what they get their certificates 24 in and so forth. Okay. But, yes, sir, those were the 25 matches we got. So, what we probably expect will happen is, 110 1 when this document gets a little more circulated, folks will 2 start to try to, you know, tweak the matches, which is 3 expected. Now, on the next couple of pages, you see the 4 implications -- you see the implications of this line of 5 logic. "This line of logic" meaning, let me use all the 6 data. We have the actuals and the ranges, okay? And we 7 have matches for some jobs, but we don't have matches for 8 other jobs, okay? Let me go to some of the clerical jobs at 9 the top, okay? You see the job Legal Secretary? Y'all see 10 that? That's currently a Grade 14. The survey suggests 11 that you should put your maximum of that, so that it would 12 be a Grade 15. Why? Because we got survey data on that, 13 okay? 14 But, let's look at -- let's look at -- let's 15 say a job -- Booking Officer. Booking officer. The jobs 16 that are in bold are the ones that are likely to change. If 17 you take the job Booking Officer, first of all, know that 18 that job doesn't exist right now. That's a recommendation 19 from the Sheriff's Department that we start -- that we would 20 create that job. Your Jailer exists, and it's a 14. And 21 I've already said a couple of times that the range is okay 22 for the Jailer, but how you are paying within the range is 23 not. So, look at the logic here. There is no current job 24 of Booking Officer; we could not get enough data there. But 25 our logic would be -- and this is where you'll want to give 111 1 it some thought. Our rationale would be that that should be 2 one grade higher than a regular jailer, okay? Because you 3 got folks who are the equivalent of sergeants in the jail, 4 and it should obviously be lower than a shift supervisor or 5 a sergeant. So, that's what the rationale columns mean, 6 okay? 7 Ultimately, what usually happens, gentlemen, 8 is you look this over and you give us your opinion, and the 9 department heads kind of, you know, give us their opinion 10 and kick it around, and so this is -- you know, this is 11 probably likely to go through a couple of iterations. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. 13 MR. NASH: Yes, sir? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Actually, I have two 15 questions. On this page, whatever number it is, that has -- 16 MR. NASH: Sorry, yes. It didn't get -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- Jail 18 Administrator. 19 MR. NASH: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're suggesting or 21 you're saying to us that Jail Nurse at this point is a 22, 22 and should be reduced to a 20, and the Jail Administrator is 23 currently a 20 and should be approved at 21? 24 MR. NASH: And I may not have -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The nurse is being 112 1 paid more than the administrator; is that correct? 2 MR. NASH: Yes, sir, that is correct. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that the "S" on 4 your suggested or recommended means -- for example, 20, and 5 the -- and the "S" is -- 6 MR. NASH: Up on the sworn schedule. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- the starting rate 8 within the grade? Is that what you're saying? 9 MR. NASH: No, sir, the "S" just means it's 10 on the sworn schedule. Right now you have two salary 11 schedules; you have one for sworn and one for everybody 12 else. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right, thank you. 14 MR. NASH: And that's what the "S" means. 15 But, yes, I -- now, you may say, gee, we can't -- you know 16 that's what we got to pay nurses, and I couldn't get good 17 benchmark data on nurses. But, your statement is true, and 18 it concerned me that the nurses were making more than the 19 person running the jail. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And if I was running 21 the jail, it would concern me too. 22 MR. NASH: Okay. So that's -- 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It does. 24 MR. NASH: Okay. So -- but I'm sure the 25 nurses won't want me to be saying that. So, on the next 113 1 page, Page 8, are some very -- it's got all kind of stars on 2 them, okay? 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Last page. 4 MR. NASH: Well, second to the last. 5 Anyway -- 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second to the last. 7 MR. NASH: This is -- these are all policy 8 issues that I would appreciate you gentlemen thinking about, 9 okay? And I've got the two most important ones in -- in 10 bold and in italics; that's Number 5 and Number 7. And my 11 little software program won't give me a 10, so that's why 10 12 is a zero. Number 5 says that I'm going -- again, you let 13 me use all the data I have, actuals and ranges, and that 14 your policy be to put the top of your salary opportunity 15 around the median. What that would say is that it's your 16 policy to offer pay opportunity, opportunity that's 17 competitive with the actuals and the opportunities of your 18 competitors. Okay? 19 The second, in italics, is probably more -- 20 well, it is; it's not probably. It is more -- has more 21 financial implications. Remember, I said I think one of 22 your problems is you -- you want more bass. You want more 23 bass fishing, less carp fishing. In order to do that right 24 now, there is no systematic way of moving people through, 25 but that's how they do -- you've got a lot of company doing 114 1 that. There's no seniority movement, there's no performance 2 movement. There's -- you know, there's no movement. I'd 3 like you to seriously take under advisement thinking about 4 changing that, changing it at least a little bit so you get 5 folks off the bottom. 6 And -- and here's just my -- and it's really, 7 gentlemen, just my thinking as of this morning. Some of the 8 people in the Sheriff's Department were very helpful, and if 9 you're looking at -- now, it does say Page 9, okay? These 10 are my first thoughts on how we might be able to help you 11 help your employees have a little more opportunity within 12 the ranges if they're competitive, after you've made the 13 changes on the ranges you need to. Some suggestions were 14 made that -- in sworn, for police and jail, there are 15 some -- some TCLEOSE certifications. And, in thinking about 16 that, you could, for example, award one step off the bottom. 17 In other words, you would move one step. If you were a 18 jailer at 14 and you got that intermediate certification, 19 you'd know you'd be going to a 14-2 from a 14-1. 20 There were some suggestions made that 21 seniority within the county -- this is still for sworn; 22 primarily police, sheriff, and jailer -- that seniority 23 within the county could be used as a criteria for getting 24 people off the bottom. Seniority in other police 25 departments or sheriff's departments. These, again, are 115 1 just thoughts, but it's a start. We have to start 2 someplace. Similarly, with recommendations for progression 3 through the range for non-sworn, I've given you kind of a 4 conservative option and a little more agressive option. 5 And the policy, if we go back to the policy 6 recommendation, would be -- if you go back, please, 7 gentlemen, to Page 8, Policy Recommendation Number 8. After 8 you've adjusted your ranges to make them competitive, I'm 9 asking to you give serious consideration to having a policy 10 that says, It is the policy of Kerr County that all 11 competent -- your keepers; they're competent, seasoned, 12 they've got a certain amount of seniority, okay? -- with 13 time, can expect to advance, in parentheses, off the bottom, 14 but can expect to advance beyond the second step of the 15 range. Okay? Then the next policy after that, It will be 16 the policy of the County that some, but not the majority -- 17 in other words, less than 50 percent -- with time, could 18 expect to advance beyond the middle step. 19 So, what you would be saying if you adopted 20 these would be, You've been here two years, three years, 21 five years. We're going to get you off the bottom, okay? 22 But you're not going to any higher than the middle of the 23 range unless you're really good. And, the department heads 24 would continue to recommend to you who could advance beyond 25 the middle of the range, based on their performance. 116 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 2 MR. NASH: So, again, to summarize, if you 3 want to us change the format for the job descriptions, 4 please do that. If you have seen or heard anything that 5 startles you, worries you, or really bothers you, please let 6 me know. Especially if you don't want me to use all the 7 data, actuals and ranges. Any questions? 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Page 10, the -- 9 MR. NASH: Oh, yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is that a 11 recommendation for -- 12 MR. NASH: No, that was just for my own 13 coding. You can actually tear that off. They're -- yeah, 14 that's just for my own coding. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: I want to take a minute here 16 and make sure that we all understand the time frame from 17 here on. You indicated you're going to have the job 18 descriptions back by July the 10th; is that correct? 19 MR. NASH: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: That would be descriptions 21 for every employee in the county? 22 MR. NASH: For every -- for all the employees 23 we were asked to look at. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 25 MR. NASH: Which are primarily the -- those 117 1 on your salary schedule that are assigned to a salary grade. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 3 MS. NEMEC: Do those include even the ones 4 that didn't have an interview? 5 MR. NASH: Yes. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. So those will be in by 7 the 10th, and then the idea is to give those back to the 8 department heads and the employees for their comments? 9 MR. NASH: Yes. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: And anyone who wants to 11 appeal their -- their -- the recommended job title -- 12 MR. NASH: Correct. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- may do so. 14 MR. NASH: Correct. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. And then, once that 16 process is done, then they'll come to us for -- for final -- 17 MR. NASH: Final adjudication. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Final adjudication after 19 department heads have had a chance to weigh-in. 20 MR. NASH: Correct. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: On the salary. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I ask a question 23 right quick? Who is the appeal -- who do they appeal to? 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: They appeal first to 25 Mr. Nash, and then ultimately to us. Am I in error? 118 1 MR. NASH: No, you're -- no, you're correct. 2 We have not -- we haven't formalized the appeal process yet. 3 Since I got a lot of the interviews I got, we'd give them 4 some fresh ears in case some people are not happy with me. 5 They'll get to, you know, give a pitch to somebody else. We 6 had also talked about maybe having some folks from the staff 7 sit in on those appeals, or even the Judge sit in on the 8 appeals. The whole point would be that we'd hope to take 9 care of most of the, you know, legitimate errors, mistakes, 10 differences of opinion, et cetera, before people could come 11 before you and say, you know, Nash got it wrong; my title 12 should be something different. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me make sure I'm 14 clear here. I'm an employee, and you assign me to a certain 15 status here and I don't agree with that. And I appeal to 16 you? 17 MR. NASH: You appeal only the title. Okay? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To you? 19 MR. NASH: You appeal the title to me, yes. 20 For example, I am taking -- take the -- take the title of -- 21 well, okay. Take the title of Roadway Maintenance 22 Technician I. My view -- and I'm sure -- I know Mr. Odom 23 doesn't agree. I don't care for the title "technician"; I 24 think it's a -- an over-title, and so I was going to 25 recommend "worker." Okay? Now, I'm sure there's going to 119 1 be some discussion or disagreement about that. The initial 2 discussion or disagreement about that would be to us, and if 3 we can fix it, that recommendation would come to you. Is 4 there -- 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: I mean, the ultimate 6 determination -- 7 MR. NASH: Not the salary part, just the 8 title part. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: The ultimate determination of 10 any appeal is us. And we need to work out the process, but 11 my preliminary thinking is that if an employee wants to 12 appeal their job title -- and we're only talking about the 13 title, the difference between worker and technician; you 14 know, lieutenant versus sergeant or whatever -- then that 15 goes first to Mr. Nash, and then if an employee is not 16 satisfied, then I think maybe we set up an interim step 17 involving Barbara and perhaps another of the elected 18 officials or department heads. And then, if they're not 19 satisfied at that step, then they'll come before us. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess this goes, you 21 know, to, I guess, some of what we talked about before 22 Mr. Nash got here, a little bit during the bills portion. 23 And, you know, I've received complaints about the interview 24 process, and they're pretty critical of you and the way you 25 conducted the interviews. And I guess I'm concerned of -- 120 1 you know, of having the appeal go back to someone who the 2 employees don't have confidence with already, if that's the 3 way to go. And, one, I guess I'd like to get a response 4 from you about how you felt the interviews went with the 5 employees, because of the criticism that I've received about 6 you and those interviews. And then, also, how does that 7 appeal -- I mean, you said you'd have a colleague, you know, 8 talk to some of them as a first line; I think it's a real 9 good idea. I just want to make sure that our employees are 10 being represented and it's not being driven by Nash and, you 11 know, Associates. 12 MR. NASH: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, really, 14 that's -- if you can respond to that. Sheriff, do you have 15 a comment on that? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My only comment on that, 17 I think if there's an appeal on the job title -- and that's 18 all that the employee can appeal, I think, first off -- the 19 employee and whoever the department head is all ought to sit 20 down and see if they can work it out. If they don't, then 21 it comes directly to the court. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, but my response to that 23 is, it needs to be consistent within the whole system. 24 That's why I think it needs to have a central clearing 25 mechanism. You know, we can tweak this any way we want to, 121 1 but I think that -- that the appeal -- we're only talking 2 about titles. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: You know, that it needs to be 5 consistent within the same -- within the whole system. And 6 if -- if the recommendation kind of sets up a class of -- 7 of, you know, everyone -- a lieutenant or a deputy or a 8 patrol officer, we don't want to end up with Patrol Officer 9 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6, and Lieutenant 1, 2, and 3. I mean, we 10 need to -- we need to have some mechanism where the appeal 11 of the job title is looked at within the context of the 12 whole system, because what I don't want to end up with is a 13 structure at the end of this where every single employee of 14 Kerr County has a different job title, 'cause then we 15 haven't done anything. So, that's why the -- and it's -- 16 nothing is laid in stone, folks. This is just preliminary 17 thinking. 18 There needs to be some mechanism whereby the 19 appeal of the job title is looked at as part of the overall 20 classification, and that's why it needs to go through the 21 people who will -- the experts that we've hired to look at 22 the process. Now, you know, that's why I -- you know, I've 23 suggested a step where if the title appeal to the experts is 24 not successful, then it go to a panel of county employees 25 before it comes to the Court. Now, that may be a little 122 1 more cumbersome than we want to do, but I think it's 2 important that we keep the appeal within the overall 3 picture, as well. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question is, I hear 5 you saying job title only. Job title doesn't include job 6 description? 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just the title? 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Just the title. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's going to be 11 worked at the department; department heads are going to look 12 at that. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Descriptions are going to be 14 worked out with -- the descriptions -- this is going to be 15 given to -- to Leonard. This particular Road and Bridge one 16 is going to be given to Leonard and that employee that this 17 description is for, and they're going to look at it and 18 they're going to have an opportunity to comment on it and to 19 try to make it jibe with what their perception of reality 20 is, in conjunction with Mr. Nash. Now, all the appeals 21 process is talking about is the job title; it's not the job 22 description. That's the responsibility of the department 23 head. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I don't see, I 25 mean, why you have to have a separate step for the title. 123 1 Why can't it all be done at once? If they don't like the 2 job title, why can't they say that they don't like the job 3 description that's being assigned? I mean, we're making it 4 more complicated. I don't see that it's that -- 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why I was 6 suggesting that the department -- like, one I know they were 7 trying to recommend for us was our Jail Administrator be 8 called Jail Warden. Well, the Jail Administrator ain't for 9 that, and I'm not for that either. She's a Jail 10 Administrator. And, so, it -- to us, as far as inside the 11 department, we don't have a problem with it. Why should 12 there be a big appeals process to keep it as Jail 13 Administrator? It's something the Court and the department 14 head could handle pretty quick. You're talking little, 15 bitty changes that have just been worked -- 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we're talking about a 17 process, too. We're not talking about one unique situation, 18 we're talking about a process. And there's only one person 19 who supervises the jail, so that's not an issue, but you've 20 got, you know, how many patrol officers? You know, they 21 need to be looked at as a group, not individually. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Correct. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: So if one of them decides 24 that you really shouldn't be a patrol officer, you ought to 25 be something else, then that needs to be looked at in the 124 1 context of what the overall system is. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would agree to that 3 part. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, I mean -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, based on a -- 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: What we're trying to -- we 7 have to understand the philosophy behind the appeal system, 8 which is to give the employees an opportunity -- meaningful 9 opportunity to come in and say, "No, I'm really not this; 10 I'm this." 11 MR. NASH: Let me -- let me make a couple of 12 comments. The -- no matter which way you do it, you will 13 make some people unhappy. I have no intention of calling 14 your Jail Administrator a warden. That was meant to try to 15 establish a little bit of rapport with the employee. You do 16 have in front of you my preliminary recommendations, at 17 least for the jail, and you'll see she's still called a Jail 18 Administrator, okay? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mine says Road and 20 Bridge. 21 MR. NASH: Oh, well -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me and you are having 23 a hard time getting off on the right foot here. 24 MR. NASH: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would you like this 125 1 back? 2 MR. NASH: You can -- I was just trying to 3 keep it focused on what we -- what we needed to do. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: While we're doing 5 that, there's nothing in the process -- 6 MR. NASH: Would you look through this, 7 Michael, and see if you can find -- 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: There's nothing in the 9 process -- here, you can take a look at that one so you know 10 what he's talking about. But there's nothing in the process 11 that's ever going to keep employees from talking to the 12 department head about job descriptions. I mean, that's true 13 today. So -- so we don't need to assume that all 14 communications ceased when this -- when this study started. 15 I think what -- what Judge Henneke is trying to get to is, 16 what is a reasonable process to make sure that everybody has 17 an input, but that it -- that you still come out with a 18 total package that -- that makes sense, where you don't have 19 disparity between one set of job descriptions and a -- or 20 titles and levels, and another set. So, I think that's -- I 21 don't think we're at cross-purposes here at all in trying to 22 make sure that the process supports the overall thing. But, 23 there's nothing in there that says that an employee can't go 24 talk to the department head any time he wants to. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it seems to me that 126 1 if each elected official or department head would basically 2 get this, I -- you may want to delete the employee names off 3 of it. You can get the same description of it and just have 4 them post it or hand it out or whatever, and say, What do 5 y'all think of these titles? They can probably get it back 6 within a week; it can be set. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, that's another way to 8 do it, but -- 9 MS. NEMEC: I thought we had already 10 established all this. I thought we had already gone through 11 this and established what the process was going to be. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we have. So -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why are we reviewing it? 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Just as a status report. 15 MR. NASH: The process -- the process was 16 supposed to be -- someone -- and I don't want to -- I don't 17 want to dodge your question; I'll enjoy engaging your 18 question. By and large, your interviews went fair. Okay? 19 I indicated that there was a fair amount of cynicism in a 20 number of the interviews. With some of the clerical people, 21 there was impatience on their part, because I spent a lot of 22 time trying to understand why everyone in the county was 23 called a clerk, or an admin clerk or a senior clerk. Okay? 24 And there were people who wanted to be called probate clerks 25 and mental health clerks and MVD clerks and so forth, and I 127 1 spent a lot of time trying to sort that out, which I 2 believed I did to my satisfaction. 3 There were some clerical people where I, 4 frankly, just -- maybe I didn't keep the smile on my face as 5 long as I could have. I did -- I did volunteer to end -- to 6 terminate two interviews. One -- one was with an individual 7 who insisted on reading something while I was talking to 8 them. I don't know if that was an individual that came and 9 complained about me, but if it was, the feeling's mutual. I 10 thought that was rude. So I think it's, though, a little 11 premature for you folks to worry about whether or not the 12 employees will get their full, you know, opportunity to 13 speak their minds on their titles. 14 Before the -- the agreed upon process was 15 that someone from our side -- and, as I said, I'm even 16 willing to step aside and let my younger, more patient 17 colleague hear the appeals with the department heads. Okay? 18 And -- and the Judge was going to sit and listen to -- let's 19 just take probate clerk. She doesn't know what our 20 recommendation is, but if we recommend probate clerk, 21 she'll -- she'd be happy. If we don't, she won't be. There 22 were some people that wanted an interview and didn't fill 23 out a questionnaire. But, I would -- I would -- if I were a 24 Commissioner, rather than listen to potentially 50 people 25 tell you, you know, what they didn't like about Nash, I 128 1 would rather let them go through a formal appeal process to 2 see what we're actually recommending, because a lot of them 3 don't know yet what we're recommending. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, let me respond by 5 saying one thing. The complaint I'm looking at is from a 6 District Clerk -- or the County Clerk. And -- 7 MR. NASH: The County Clerk, herself? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean, you have a 9 full -- a department head, essentially, complaining about 10 the process. So, you know, I mean -- 11 MR. NASH: The -- the issues that were 12 more -- and, by the way, I asked for time with your County 13 Clerk and I couldn't get it. I asked -- talked to your 14 County Clerk -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't need to get off 16 on that. 17 MR. NASH: No, I don't think we do either. 18 But it was that -- you have the mental health clerk there, 19 the probate clerk there, you have the people there who 20 wouldn't fill out a questionnaire who wanted to come in for 21 an interview anyway. So, if you heard from the County Clerk 22 complaints, that's accurate, because that's where I got the 23 most irritable, because I didn't -- and I asked to speak to 24 your County Clerk and wasn't able to do so. And I asked the 25 supervising -- the Chief Deputy to get me time, and she 129 1 wasn't able to get me time either, so -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, from what I'm 3 seeing, it looks very good. 4 MR. NASH: Thank you. I don't think it's 5 bad, but I'd like my -- I'd like my younger, more patient 6 colleague -- and I'll sit off in the corner and try to bite 7 my fingers when I get annoyed about something. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's go back to what we're 9 talking about, which is the appeal process. 10 MS. NEMEC: I think we had said in the appeal 11 process, that once they got their job descriptions, we were 12 going to have a panel. Mr. Nash is recommending that 13 Mr. Walker be on that panel, and the Judge. I believe that 14 the Court was going to appoint the rest of the panel, so 15 when we get to that step -- 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll put that on the agenda 17 for next meeting. 18 MS. NEMEC: Okay. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: And we'll set up the panel, 20 and what we'll do is -- what I'm going to suggest we do is 21 we maybe name four or five people to the panel, with the 22 understanding that there will be at least two county people 23 there at all times, so that we can -- we don't have to hold 24 up the whole process to try and get everybody together, but 25 we get at least a 3-person panel, Mr. Walker and -- 130 1 MR. NASH: And I can be there and shut up, or 2 be there and vote, or not be there. You tell me. Okay? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll take number 4 three. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Any further questions, 6 Barbara? Anything else? 7 MS. NEMEC: I believe we were going to speak 8 about the payment? That is on the agenda -- 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's a different item. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not on the list. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll do it later. 12 MS. NEMEC: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just have one 14 question. I have to satisfy myself with one quick question, 15 and it has to do with the correspondence that the Court 16 received from elected officials. And -- and the -- the 17 allegation in the letter deals with whether or not you folks 18 have a clear distinction in your mind of the functions of a 19 county clerk versus a district clerk. And, my question 20 really is not do you have a clear distinction in your mind. 21 My question really is, is there sufficient duplication of 22 effort, whether it's a probate clerk versus some other type 23 of clerk, in your mind, so that you don't have to draw a 24 clear distinction between what's on the second floor and the 25 first floor, if the ultimate title is clerk? Do you 131 1 understand my question? 2 MR. NASH: Yes. Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How would you respond 4 to that? 5 MR. NASH: Where our preliminary 6 recommendations are right now, we do intend -- there were a 7 couple of issues. One was a lot of people wanted to be 8 called "Deputy." They've been deputized; they thought that 9 was important. That was one issue. Another issue was some 10 people felt that much more specificity, by county clerk, by 11 district clerk, by tax clerk, was necessary. And, I 12 mentioned within the County Clerk's office, we had people 13 want to be called probate clerk, mental health clerk, et 14 cetera. Our preliminary recommendations that you'll see is 15 we do intend to have, for example, Deputy District Clerk, 16 Deputy County Clerk. In other words, to customize and make 17 more specific by those big departments, and we did concur. 18 We are recommending a separate title for probate clerk. 19 That is one of the special titles that we are recommending. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, sir. 21 MR. NASH: You bet. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Mr. Nash. We 23 appreciate the update and look forward to the next round of 24 results. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are we -- before we leave 132 1 that, are we -- is the timeline okay with the budget in this 2 process? I mean, we're -- 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's going to have to be 5 resolved in time to incorporate these changes in the budget. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: I believe so. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If we don't slip. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Just wanted to 9 make sure while we're doing all this. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. We're going to take 12 one more item before we take a quick lunch break. Let's 13 take up Item 21, which is consider and discuss the status of 14 the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center long-range plan 15 development and seek court approval for the formal 16 presentation of the master plan and market analysis by 17 Quorum Associates on June 26th, Year 2000, at 4 o'clock p.m. 18 at Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. 20 Commissioner Letz and I have had the opportunity of working 21 with both Mr. Blankenship and Mr. Dooley, representing 22 Quorum Architects, and assisting us in the development of 23 our long-range plan for the Ag facility. It's been a 24 pleasure working with them. And what we are asking today 25 was for them to come here and give us -- give the Court a 133 1 sort of preliminary look at where we are with this process, 2 and then, at the end of their particular presentation, take 3 care of whatever questions the Court had, and then set a 4 time for the formal presentation to the public, which we 5 hope will be on the 26th of this month at 4 p.m. at the Ag 6 Barn. Mr. Blankenship? 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I don't need to say 8 anything else; I think you said it all. I will say, I'm 9 Bill Blankenship. I'm principal of Quorum Architects, and 10 I'm here today with Mike Dooley with Dooley Management to 11 present you with a preliminary on the master plan study for 12 the Youth Center. What I wanted to do first is let 13 Mr. Dooley kind of go over the market analysis and answer 14 any questions so that -- and here's a card for you. You 15 need one? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I have one. 17 Almost have your number by heart. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll let Mr. Dooley go 19 ahead and -- you can take a quick look, and then he'll 20 briefly explain it, and then we'll go into the master plan. 21 MR. DOOLEY: Thank you, Judge, Commissioners. 22 I'll be brief. I'm Mike Dooley. I'm president of Dooley 23 Management. I have a small management company that has one 24 full-time client, and that's Summerville County, but I do 25 some other things from time to time, like market analysis 134 1 and studies for other people like Quorum Architects. We've 2 been doing this 25 years. The first seven or eight years 3 were in the convention business in large cities, and the 4 last 15 to 17, I've been specializing in secondary and 5 tertiary markets and working on things that have a lot to do 6 with what we're going to recommend that you do here. I'll 7 go over this briefly and then answer questions. And, of 8 course, I'm available at any time. 9 I looked at this particular market here, and 10 I see a real opportunity for Kerrville. Not every city and 11 every county has the things already in place that would help 12 a particular type of public events facility work like you 13 have here. You have a lot of things going for you. Not 14 only are you heavy into the convention market already, you 15 have a lot of hotel rooms, you have a lot of support 16 services, restaurants, different supply companies and 17 things, and this is a good opportunity, if you wanted to add 18 something to that that would fill out basically your 19 calendar and that would be a public event facility. 20 We were asked to do some things, like to look 21 at your current facility, and we did, and we think it forms 22 the basis for a very good public events program if it were 23 upgraded, enlarged. In fact, some of what you have is 24 really unusable. I'll be kind of brief with this, 'cause I 25 know you may have some questions, but where you are now 135 1 located is a very good location, good ingress and egress. 2 You're pretty close to Highway 27, which is -- or it's on 27 3 and pretty close to the Loop there, I guess, where you can 4 get secondary disbursements. It's a good place to be. 5 There's -- I thought there was adequate parking there. I've 6 seen some of Mr. Blankenship's company's drawings, and 7 there's more than adequate parking there. It's a very good 8 site to work with there. 9 Some things are not usable. Some of your old 10 pens, some of -- your outside show arena and things that, 11 you may be using them now, but that's just because you have 12 such a demand, and your current management staff takes what 13 you have and works very well with it, but I wouldn't 14 recommend using everything there. Some of the things -- 15 you've got a good horse barn and this, that, and the other, 16 but mainly that show barn in the middle, that large space, 17 is very usable, and with some upgrade could form the center 18 for what I think would be a very good multipurpose arena 19 complex. That's what we're recommending to you. And, a 20 multipurpose arena complex would specialize in the horse 21 business. There's a lot of reasons to do that, and one of 22 the main reasons is that the horse business is a year-round 23 business. And you can also bring people to town, which I 24 would assume would be one of the goals of fixing up your 25 Exhibition Center and trying to improve that, and then it 136 1 also provides quite a bit of revenue to operate the facility 2 with. It's a good place to start. 3 The size of what we have recommended is 4 basically a two-arena complex. As you'll see some of the 5 verbiage in here, I talk about some of the potential 6 competition out there as not having the two arenas. We 7 really need to do that. You don't have to have the Taj 8 Mahal, but you need to have two arenas to work with. We've 9 recommended, based on the size of your community and the 10 number of hotel rooms here, that you have about a 500-stall 11 horse facility. And there are several attachments to this 12 that look at the different type of facilities. I think 13 Attachment B would give you a good analysis for the 14 competition, and you'll have a chance to look at that. We 15 would recommend that you be in there about -- with a median 16 facility, that's a good place to compete, because a lot of 17 them have inherent problems, which we've talked about in 18 here, which make it very difficult to compete with. 19 You also have a city that has enough 20 different amenities, like hotel rooms, to -- to compete with 21 some of these other facilities in there. And as you get 22 into this, we'd be glad to give you a -- you know, answer 23 questions or talk about why we think that a facility that 24 has around 500 stalls and has two arenas, one of which will 25 be an air-conditioned, top-of-the-line arena, would be good 137 1 for competition to help bring business here. This building 2 would also work for some of things you have locally that are 3 very important to you. I've seen it several times; some of 4 your youth activities, your youth fair, would benefit 5 greatly from a new facility, and I believe that whatever you 6 design, you can accommodate that. 7 You also have the benefit now of having a lot 8 of convention business, and that's already coming here, that 9 doesn't have a convention hall to meet in. You should build 10 something there that would help you with that, too. It kind 11 of works out, you know, you have -- everybody has a 12 different problem, and as I understand it from talking to 13 your C.V.B. and managers of some of the local motels, you 14 have sort of a peaking problem. That's really -- your 15 business starts in late spring and then goes into fall, and 16 then you have several months a year without much. That's 17 not unusual for a resort, tourist-type area. But, with the 18 right kind of public event facility, you would be able to 19 fill that with some more business. I think that what we've 20 recommended here would be very good for you. 21 Briefly, you asked to us look at several 22 other facilities around and look at operating costs. 23 Attachment D is just a general look at that. We also have 24 some more folks in here, comparing what you would do to 25 Waco, Belton, Abilene, and Glen Rose. There's a cost to 138 1 operating public event facilities. My estimate is that 2 after you opened and were open a few years, four or five 3 years, that your costs to do full-service facility 4 management work here would be around $250,000 a year. Now, 5 that would be first-class; that wouldn't be secondary rate, 6 but you can see a lot of places cost as much as $400,000 a 7 year. Some are a lot less; we're operating on less in Glen 8 Rose. But, there is a cost to that. 9 Simply put, we provide a service. It's very 10 labor-intensive, and you use a lot of utilities in there, 11 but if you're going to bring people to town and boost the 12 local economy, that's one way to do it. My ballpark 13 estimate -- it's not really my field. I bet some of the 14 Convention and Visitors people could do better for you on 15 that -- is that if you put a facility such as we're 16 recommending to you here, that your total economic input, 17 direct economic input, would be around $19 million a year 18 from that facility. Now, that's -- again, that's mine. I 19 use a little smaller figure than Sudie uses with her 20 Convention Bureau. I used $100 a day and only talked about 21 direct input. But you can see, looking at some of these 22 other facilities, it's substantial. And you already have 23 some there, so part of that would be from what is there. 24 But, I think you would -- you're in a position where, if you 25 build this, that you would receive a lot of benefits from 139 1 this type of facility. 2 There are also -- all the other attachments 3 talk about -- Attachment G, in particular, talks about 4 revenue and expense projections. Those, of course, are not 5 exact. They're not scientific, but I do have a lot of 6 experience with facilities like this, and I think that's 7 probably what you're looking at as far as operating costs. 8 And then, other impact on this would be how much local 9 business you supplement, are you doing any school work, how 10 you operate. Do you operate with a private company? Do you 11 look at a county department, or do you set up some other 12 sort of operating entity? But, a lot of that would be 13 addressed by Mr. Blankenship. 14 Once again, I was very pleased to do the work 15 here, and I think a lot of people that we've talked to, you 16 know, knew where you were going with this. And what I found 17 here is that it's very optimistic, from what -- a lot of 18 towns start out with a whole lot less. Kerr County and 19 Kerrville are starting with quite a bit. Do you have any 20 immediate questions I could answer? 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, nothing. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Not at this time. Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mike. 140 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay. The next portion is 2 the master plan, itself. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The master plan started off 5 with us being invited to come down and talk to the Master 6 Planning Committee, and prior to that, they gave us a scope 7 of work, and so I included that in here so that you could 8 get some idea of exactly some of the things that were being 9 asked. We also included a master plan development kind of 10 schematic that I did for the County so that I could explain 11 to them how I felt like the master plan was arrived at, and 12 then what would you do with it afterwards. The next sheet 13 just goes into a survey and site plan that shows the 14 existing facility, and actually the surrounding area with 15 the grades and the vegetation is there, and where you're 16 sitting on the highway and Riverside Drive. 17 The conceptual plan was my idea of how I felt 18 the complex should be arranged according to a bubble diagram 19 that would give you relationships. Like Arena Number 1, 20 through the Master Planning Committee, they wanted to have 21 it accessible to the concourse. One of the main things they 22 wanted to do was be able to operate this facility at a 23 minimum number amount, which would say to me that a minimal 24 amount of concession areas, minimal amount of changes, being 25 able to utilize the facility the way it exists without 141 1 having to make changes. So, by doing the two arenas and 2 placing the concourse, exhibit hall, and concessions between 3 those, you can feed each one, and also the barns and the 4 warm-up and staging areas off of that could utilize the 5 concourse through the arenas, so you can have multiple 6 events going on and have a minimum amount of expenditure on 7 the County's part to maintain -- or, like, have the 8 concessions in that area. 9 The next sheet is the site master plan, which 10 builds on that conceptual idea and shows my idea of what can 11 be accomplished by adding the facility onto the outside of 12 the existing one. I went through a lot of schemes trying to 13 figure out what to do with the existing arena and the 14 facilities that are there now, trying to move it to the left 15 or the right, and winding up with what I thought was the 16 best idea for utilizing that facility was to make it into 17 the exhibit hall and to place the toilets and concessionry 18 in amongst that, use it as the concourse, split the two 19 arenas out to the side, so that now you're utilizing the 20 facility that you've got right now as, actually, your -- 21 your area in between the two, your major walking area for 22 people to be in. And the two barn areas off to the side 23 would feed each arena, and then the warm-up areas outside 24 those could help offset what was going on at the barn for 25 people who were there for horse shows or youth fair or 142 1 whatever. 2 After that, what I did was -- the next sheet 3 was just a grading plan, and I'll come back to that later 4 and explain to you why I stuck it in there. The next sheet 5 after that, color sheet, is a section -- that's a section 6 looking from 27, looking back at the facility. The facility 7 right in the middle is the existing arena. It's a little 8 bit long on one side, the way it sits right now. And that 9 side on the left side would be your major arena, which is 10 Arena Number 1, would have all the air-conditioning in it 11 and be your major facility. Arena Number 2 would be an 12 open-air type facility. What I was thinking about doing was 13 taking the existing arena and concreting the floor in there, 14 so as you did that, you could use it as your exhibit hall 15 and also for some of the shows and things that are happening 16 in there, home and garden. This could be utilized much 17 better. It also gave me the opportunity to raise the floor 18 enough so that on the side of the arena where you're going 19 to be utilizing it for your major shows, it would raise it 20 up enough so that we could use that for rodeo events, where 21 they could have the roping and so forth underneath the 22 stands so that you don't have any conflicts up there. And, 23 it came out to where it was within about a foot of the grade 24 that we have right there, minimum amount of grade that had 25 to be there. That's why I kind of included the side, so 143 1 when you're looking at it, you can kind of see where these 2 numbers are falling. 3 Next plan is showing what the Youth Stock 4 Show would occupy. What I did was I took some figures from 5 Mr. Holekamp and increased those -- in fact, let me give you 6 one. 7 MR. HOLEKAMP: Thank you. 8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Almost doubling everything 9 that you've got right now. I tried to make it so that you 10 wouldn't have to do any reconfiguration on the facility. As 11 I understand, when the -- part of the sheep and goats come 12 in, they have to get traded out, they have to do a lot of 13 maneuvering around to accommodate the next group coming in, 14 and by doing it this way, there is none of that. They can 15 be set up and operated solely as they are. It also gives 16 you the opportunity to have the show ring with the people 17 around it, so that on your sale day, you don't have to 18 change anything; they're there and you can do your sales. 19 You'd be occupying both arenas and the middle area down from 20 the exhibit hall, which it shows the cattle about 182. I 21 think right now you got about 140 tie-ups, so it would 22 increase the cattle about 40 total. And that doesn't mean 23 that you're limited right there. If it spills in and even 24 gets larger, the three arenas that are down there are 25 actually portable. They can be taken out, and all that area 144 1 below the arenas can be utilized for the Youth Stock Show. 2 The next area is -- next page is for the home 3 and garden show that you have, and I kept that inside the 4 existing arena, almost doubling the amount of people that 5 can be utilized in that area. And, since it would be a 6 portion of it climatized and a portion of it 7 air-conditioned, I don't think you'd have any problems with 8 people paying a premium for it. I've got them coming down 9 the concourse side and through the exhibit hall and into the 10 back side below the concession areas. And, there again, 11 that can always spill out down through the back end of that 12 existing arena. 13 Next one shows just -- I just showed what we 14 could do if you have some festivals. I wasn't sure exactly 15 how to illustrate the fact that it would accommodate a 16 tremendous amount of people, other than right now, when I 17 was down here the last time, you had your folk festival 18 going on, and the area that's over to the left-hand side, 19 which is the drainage area coming in from off of 27, and 20 there's a tremendous amount of trees -- decided to go ahead 21 and cut back the parking that was in there and leave that in 22 the cleaned-up state so that it could be utilized for that 23 folk festival or any other kind of festival that would want 24 to be over on that side. Therefore, there is no 25 interference between something going on in the major arenas 145 1 at the same time, so you could have multiple things going 2 on. You could also have it where the festivals could be 3 down in the area that would be covered below the two arenas 4 by taking out those pens again. If someone was having 5 something over in the area that was in the drainage area, 6 and you were having bad weather, they could move over and be 7 covered in this area, or you could have two going on at the 8 same time. 9 The next is showing a configuration that 10 could be utilized for any kind of rodeo, whether P.R.C.A. or 11 not. The existing barn that's down there right now could 12 accommodate cattle pens. And, off of that, you could feed 13 Arena Number 1 fairly easy. You can see the chute going up 14 towards where the cattle pens are, and it could also go 15 across over to Arena Number 2. So, there again, you 16 could -- you could have two things going on; they could have 17 two events going on at the same time. The barns, of course, 18 would be utilized for the horses and stuff. 19 Next are -- would be the horse show. There's 20 not much to show on the horse show, except for the fact that 21 the way this is set up, with the two arenas and the warm-up 22 area, staging, and the barns, is a Class A facility that 23 could be utilized by larger shows. And the participants of 24 which -- I'm in the horse business, and this is what we 25 participate in -- would be a setup that everyone would like 146 1 to be in. Part of what we run into a lot of times is that 2 they will have one arena and they'll have one warm-up area. 3 You got so many horses going on that your event gets slowed 4 down; it takes longer to do it. By having multiple warm-up 5 areas and multiple arenas, you can accommodate more things 6 going on, which, in reality, means that the people are going 7 to be able to make more money off the show, which means 8 they're going to like your facility a lot more. The two 9 warm-up areas that are on the outside of the two barns are 10 just pen areas; they're not covered. Everything else, from 11 the barn through the staging and up to the other arenas in 12 your existing area, is all covered, so weather would not be 13 a problem for anything going on in the facility, and that's 14 for all that you're doing. 15 And, the last one is a probable construction 16 cost. What I did, I have several people that have done this 17 before. I got some costs specifically on the metal 18 buildings, so I feel pretty good about that. Others are 19 projections on past things that we've done, and then some of 20 it is just a -- a good guess. The site work that's there 21 right now, as you'll notice on this last one, I have the 22 trailer space parking over on that side, and I think -- 23 after some discussion, I think the best thing to do is not 24 to do that, and pull that back over. I have some other 25 suggestions about some savings and things that I think 147 1 you'll see what I'm talking about. Also, the -- the 2 County -- since this is a County facility, I'm hoping that 3 the County can do some of this work, which I feel like will 4 save us some money right there. Arena Number 1 and Number 5 2, Arena Number 1 being the main arena with the HVAC and the 6 concrete floor in it, would be utilized for any kind of 7 concerts. You can have your graduation there. Just depends 8 on how much you want to take your dirt out and put your dirt 9 back in. Barn Number 1 is totally enclosed, it's insulated. 10 Barn Number 2 has a roof with insulation on the roof, and 11 then the warm-up and the covered staging area is just a 12 covered area with insulation in the roof. The exhibit hall 13 is placed inside the old facility. 14 And, what I did there was, the front of that, 15 you need a much better identity and a way to give people a 16 good impression when they drive up or drive by. To do that, 17 I was thinking about taking the first bay off the existing 18 facility, which is what we call the wind columns. That is 19 not -- where the first vent comes across is in the second 20 bay, so we can take the first bay off of that area and come 21 out in front of that and create an entrance area and try and 22 do some stonework, maybe, to illustrate the Hill Country 23 aspect and idea, and do a porte-cochere for a drive-up area, 24 which would give you an identity that we can use coming down 25 27. Put "Hill Country Exhibition Center" on it. Also, just 148 1 to soften that and make it more enjoyable was to run some 2 areas out in the front to do some planting, and a sidewalk 3 area so that all the people that are on each side can be 4 gathered and brought in through the front. And they also 5 have the access to each of the arenas on the outside. 6 There's approximately, say, 950 people on 7 each side the way this thing got divided up, and so you're 8 sitting at about 1,900 people, which is a good amount. When 9 I first saw the site, I wasn't sure that we could get that 10 many people in there, but through a little bit of 11 reconfiguration, it worked out pretty good. The stalls and 12 pens were taken using WW panels. Having done this before, I 13 had some costs and things in there. And in this particular 14 cost, I've got two areas for both arenas as having all the 15 stalls and pens there. So, anything that's short -- it's 16 about a $6,800,000 project as it sits right there, utilizing 17 the existing facility and some county work trying to offset 18 some of the costs on the site. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 950 people in each 20 arena? 21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, that's the parking on 22 the sides. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: What I did was I split the 25 middle down there to try to get as much parking on each 149 1 side. Of course, the way the site worked out with the 2 existing barn right in the middle kind of dictated that we 3 split it up that way. The way I've got the configuration 4 shown for Arena Number 1, I've got about somewhere between 5 3,000 and 3,500 people in there. It can accommodate more. 6 The Arena Number 2 is more in the 1,500-seat bracket, and 7 those will be aluminum stands for both sides. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And in Arena Number 9 1, if you had 3,000 to 3,500 seating on each side, if you 10 were to configure the use of that for use of the floor 11 seating, what would it totally seat? 12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Arena Number 1 will seat 13 about 3,500. Arena Number 2 will seat about 1,500. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the seats on the 15 side? 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you want to use 18 the floor for seating also, what -- how much additional? 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Oh, a lot. I would say 20 about 4,000 or 5,000 more. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: 'Cause right now we seat -- 23 in Will Rogers, I think we can get, gosh, about 6,000 in 24 that. That's 130 by 256, the arena. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there any horse 150 1 activity that could not be conducted in Arena Number 1, by 2 reason of its size? 3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there anything 5 that wouldn't be conducted -- well, they're both the -- both 6 the same size? 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Both the same size. That 8 was one of the things -- that there could be some cost 9 savings for making one smaller, one of the things we had 10 talked about with P.R.C.A., and having it so that they would 11 look to this -- and if you contact some of the people 12 there -- and I know Mike knows this, but these arenas are -- 13 are right where they want to be. And, of course, they would 14 like something 150 by 300, but as far as the facility and 15 the size, you wouldn't want to maintain it for one show a 16 year. So, the optimum thing is to sit in about this area. 17 This works very well for almost any show that you can do. 18 About the only thing that you could not accommodate would be 19 a -- a regional show. And, of course, in this area, for 20 regionals -- I'm talking about national regionals. As far 21 as a show in this area right now, what you've got is 715 22 horse stalls, of which 500 of those will be permanent. The 23 115 that are in the existing arena and the 100 that are in 24 the existing barn would be temporary. You can move those 25 around, so you can accommodate a lot more things with them. 151 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're at a -- I 2 mean, the reason Bill and I put it on the agenda, we're at a 3 point where, I mean, I think the committee is pretty much 4 aware of this. This is what we've asked for, and we need to 5 figure out before we go any further, make sure that the 6 entire Court conceptually agrees with this. And, of course, 7 the first question that comes up is how do we pay for it, 8 and Bill and I have tossed around lots of different options. 9 Most of them include a bond issue of some sort. And, in our 10 minds, this is not a possibility without a bond issue. 11 Hopefully, we can get grants from a number of sources -- we 12 have some local grants -- for a facility like this. 13 L.C.R.A., I think, would be very -- there is certainly an 14 amount of air conditioning and electricity we would be using 15 in it; they'd get their money back pretty quickly. And 16 Commissioners Court may be -- may have some money out of our 17 budget each year, but we certainly shouldn't count on that. 18 And we just want -- really want to put it on the table as 19 to, you know, the next step would be -- if the Commissioners 20 Court is behind going forward, is to make a community 21 presentation and then start working on, you know, details as 22 to -- and raise the money and figure out exactly what a bond 23 issue would entail. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's -- Jonathan 25 summed it up properly. That's where we are with it, and 152 1 we'd like the Court's concurrence, then, to take this and 2 make a formal presentation to the public and invite a large 3 representation of our county to listen to Mr. Blankenship 4 and see all the bells and whistles and possibilities, and do 5 that on the 26th of June at 4 o'clock at the Ag Barn. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we want to make that -- 7 are y'all suggesting a workshop? Or make that a recessed 8 agenda item for that day? Or do you just want to have the 9 Commissioners Court sponsor the presentation? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's more a 11 sponsorship. I don't see it, really, as the -- you know, 12 the Commissioners Court, other than hosting it, doing a 13 great deal. I don't think it's -- any deliberation will 14 take place there. I think it's more -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's an F.Y.I. type 16 thing. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pretty much would be -- 18 Quorum Associates would conduct the meeting. We would be in 19 attendance, some of us; hopefully all of us. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We want to present 21 also to those who come -- we will probably send 250, 350 22 invitations out throughout the county for people to come and 23 see this. We're going to make most folks aware of who was 24 on the Master Planning Committee and what interest they 25 represent and their input, which is very valuable. 153 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, no, I'm -- I think if a 2 majority of the Court's going to be there, we're going to 3 talk about this, and we probably have to have it posted at 4 some -- some sort. So, I think what -- the alternatives are 5 to have it as an agenda item for that day; simply to recess 6 and reconvene out there, or to post it as a workshop. 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I did the same thing in 8 Glen Rose -- excuse me -- two or three times, where we just 9 invited different people, because they were trying to get a 10 consensus and a grass roots deal. And I think that's part 11 of what this is, is to let people know so that you can get a 12 consensus on it. And, one was at the school -- you were 13 even there. One was at the school, one was -- two of them 14 were at the school. And, they invited a lot of people so 15 that everyone would see it so that they were preparing 16 everybody for the bond issue situation. And, essentially, I 17 did it; I put it on. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did they handle it as 20 a recessed meeting, a workshop, or what? 21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, it was just -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just an F.Y.I.? 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. And what I'll 24 probably do is, instead of having it like this, I'll do it 25 on a Power Point presentation and have it up large enough so 154 1 everybody can see. It will be too hard to do this. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Without deliberating. 3 We don't even have to talk to each other, for that matter, 4 while we're there. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: We can't even talk to each 6 other. We can't interact with the committee or the speaker. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. Well, that's 8 true. We couldn't -- we wouldn't be able to ask questions 9 or -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have that ability. 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Actually, the County 12 Judge -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's post it as a 14 workshop. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Post it as a workshop. 16 That's the easier -- 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The County Judge did get up 18 and talk. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: They tend to do that. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, they do that 21 every now and then. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's a wonderful start, 23 gives us a lot to talk about. I'd entertain a motion to set 24 a workshop on this for June 26th at 4 o'clock. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would make that 155 1 motion, Judge, that we set a workshop meeting for formal 2 presentation of the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center 3 Master Plan Study for 4 p.m. at the Ag complex on the 26th 4 day of June. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll second. And also, I 6 have a -- I guess a comment before we vote on it. And 7 this -- I had not thought of this until now. As soon as you 8 talk about a bond issue in front of the public, they're 9 going to want to know the amount and the effect on tax rate, 10 and I don't know if it's something we should have any of 11 this -- be quiet on that at this point and -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't -- my preference 13 would be let's focus on the concept. Is this something the 14 community supports? Does it work for us? And just kind of 15 let the financing be out there, but unaddressed, because I 16 think there are a number of things we need to talk about, 17 like the county-wide hotel/motel tax, and, you know -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Make a revenue bond. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Make it revenue bond versus 20 general. A lot of issues that we're not prepared to talk 21 about. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, I think if we can focus 24 the workshop on the concept, which is just mainly for the 25 community, how does it -- like, "Are you in favor of it?" 156 1 And then people are going to -- I know they're -- it's going 2 to come up. "Well, I might be in favor. Depends on how 3 much it costs me." But at least we've got the "might be in 4 favor of it" part, so -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, then, in that 6 regard, on this last page, should we probably not even show 7 that and just have a -- a round $6.8 million figure as a 8 projected cost? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you have to 10 provide that. I understand where you're coming from, but I 11 think that ties directly -- the cost of it and deciding how 12 we arrive at the construction cost and how we fund it, that 13 relates directly to the impact. And the impact is 14 tremendous. As analyzed, the impact is $17 million-plus 15 over what we do now. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I agree with both of 17 you, but I think what Jonathan's suggesting is maybe, when 18 you're in Power Point, you don't throw this page up on the 19 screen. And I think that's worth -- worth taking that 20 approach. We don't dodge the issue of cost. We'll say the 21 preliminary indication is somewhere around $6.8 million, 22 without any grand -- 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And I think -- and 24 with good reason, because I think everybody would agree 25 that, at this point, those numbers are fairly soft, and give 157 1 a round number or a range that -- or something, because 2 these are not the real scrubbed-down numbers anyway. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As soon as someone says 4 250 -- you know, $789,250, they think that's it. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you say about 6.8 7 million, they're less inclined to -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Give or take a few. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Plus the fact that, the way 10 that's done, you know, formally, we'd like to go in -- I 11 wanted to give you guys straight numbers. Now, formally, 12 when you go in, you'll throw in a contingency and you'll say 13 a few other things to kind of cover your rear end. But that 14 was to let you know, 'cause I -- I had shown the two of 15 them, the -- specifically, the information I'd gotten from, 16 like, Whirlwind Building Systems where I got the prices for 17 what the building could cost, so some of this I have some 18 idea. The rest of it is a pull. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion was made by 20 Commissioner Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, to set 21 a workshop on Monday, June 26th, 4 o'clock p.m., for a 22 presentation on the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center 23 Master Plan Study, such workshop to be conducted at the 24 Youth Exhibition Center. Is that correct? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 158 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further discussion? If 2 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 3 (Commissioners Williams, Letz, and Griffin indicated by raised hand that they were in 4 favor of the motion.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 6 (Commissioner Baldwin indicated by raised hand that he was against the motion.) 7 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: One no. This is -- 9 this would be considered an endorsement, and I haven't had 10 time to look at it for five minutes, and I can't endorse it 11 until -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we eat lunch 14 today? 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Depends on whether you want 16 to eat dinner or not. At this time, we'll take our noon 17 recess. Let's be back at 1:30 ready to start up again. 18 I'll remind everyone we have a workshop at 2 o'clock. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Workshop at 2 o'clock. We 21 will probably come back and take up a few matters, and then 22 have to reconvene Commissioners Court after the workshop, so 23 be prepared. 24 (Recess taken from 12:40 p.m. to 1:30 p.m.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. It's 1:30 on Monday, 159 1 June 12th, Year 2000. We'll reconvene this meeting of the 2 Kerr County Commissioners Court. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 (Commissioner Baldwin not present.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll defer his items, go on 6 to the rest of them. Next item for consideration is Item 7 Number 13, which is consider and discuss advertising for 8 Request For Proposals on electrical, HVAC, and plumbing for 9 Kerr County buildings. Mr. Holekamp. 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: Per the request of 11 Commissioners Court, I -- I was requested approximately two 12 months ago, I guess -- I'm trying to get a -- specifications 13 for Request For Proposal for services rendered to Kerr 14 County relative to air-conditioning, electrical, and 15 plumbing and contracting that either by hourly rate or job 16 rate. And I think I was given certain parameters to look 17 at, and I -- let's see if you've had a chance to look 18 through this material. 19 Page 1, 2, 3, 4 -- first of all, we're asking 20 for an hourly rate during regular working hours, which is 21 described as 8:00 to 5:00 Monday through Friday, holidays 22 excluded. Then the other number we're asking for is 23 emergency; that's an overtime hourly rate. And, it's 24 specified in here, "emergency hours." And then the cost of 25 markup percentage on parts. And this is a -- basically a 160 1 mirrored bid proposal from Comal County. They -- they gave 2 me this information and told me if we had -- you know, we 3 could amend it any way we wished. They do theirs by the 4 hourly cost at the courthouse, hourly cost at the annex, the 5 hourly cost at the Sheriff's Department and Jail. And their 6 bidding, though, is on preventive maintenance also; i.e., 7 filters, checking -- kind of like a maintenance contract, 8 basically, where they go in and check the belts every three 9 months, change filters every three months, make sure that 10 they're all running well, especially on the 11 air-conditioning. It depends on what the Court really 12 wishes to -- to bid on. Do you want to bid on repair? Or 13 on maintenance? I think they really need to be separated. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In my mind, the -- on the 15 HVAC portion, I think that you would bid on both. I think 16 you bid on maintenance as a single item, but it should be 17 under one company. I really don't think it's a good idea to 18 have one company doing maintenance and another company doing 19 repairs, if at all possible. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think we said 21 "repair and maintenance contract." 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, on HVAC. On -- 23 you know, on the plumbing, I -- I mean, I'm trying to think 24 real quick of what plumbing needs maintenance. Plumbing is 25 more of a repair kind of -- 161 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But HVAC, you do 3 filters -- you do have to combine them with HVAC, but 4 plumbing and electrical, I think, are more just repair. 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: That's correct. But I wanted 6 it clarified before we did the RFP's, because you have to 7 spell that out in the -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 MR. HOLEKAMP: -- in the RFP's when you 10 submit those or send those out. And, as you noticed on 11 here, I filled in no blanks as far as a time frame of when 12 they should be sent out and when they should be opened and 13 when they should commence. I did not do it. Or the period 14 of time that you wish to have these in effect. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, you do them for a 16 one-year period, and time it as close as possible to the 17 budget process. So, if we do the first one before the 18 budget process, this first one would be, you know, a 19 short-term, and then -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this point in time, we 21 might as well wait and do just a year. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: If we send these out and give 24 people 30 days to bring them back, you do them in July and 25 have to turn around and redo it again by the end of 162 1 September. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: For the fiscal year 3 starting. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I have no problem 5 with that. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: And I have not sent these by 7 the County Attorney's office yet to check them for accuracy 8 or -- or legality, to make sure that they meet our criteria. 9 I have not done that at this point. I just wanted to give 10 y'all the copies as soon as possible to see if the concept 11 was really what the Court wanted. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, they look great. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, I think it is. 14 And I would also say that repair and maintenance is okay, 15 because your -- the way the RFP's are written, it's on a 16 level-of-effort contract. In other words, it's by-the-hour 17 and parts, plus some profit, so it wouldn't make any 18 difference if you wanted them to perform some maintenance; 19 you could have them do that at the same rate, if they'll 20 quote it the same rate. Or you can have them do repair -- I 21 mean, it's a repair and maintenance contract. I don't think 22 it's important whether or not you use those words or 23 eliminate the "maintenance" word. I don't think that -- 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- that really means 163 1 anything, because we're not specifying in here that we want 2 them to come around once every 30 days. If we want them to 3 do anything, we're going to task them. We're going to give 4 them a task order or project or -- or purchase order or 5 something. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: Correct. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We're going to tell 8 them what we want done and when we want it accomplished, 9 whether it's repair or maintenance. So, I think "repair and 10 maintenance contracts" are the right terminology. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Fine. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And these look pretty 13 good to me. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just get it reviewed 15 by the County Attorney. 16 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I like this. It's 18 simple. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, straightforward. 20 So, you finally found some in Comal County? 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, real close. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: He was looking all 23 over for some good examples. 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: The Purchasing Department 25 there furnished it to me, and they were very, very helpful 164 1 in putting it together. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Where'd you get it from? 3 MR. HOLEKAMP: Oh, Comal County Purchasing 4 Department. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Purchasing Department. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh, how about that? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Think of all the money 8 we're spending by not having that department right now. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Thank you, Judge. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. We'll pass by Item 12 Number 14 at this point, and Number 15. Do you want to go 13 ahead -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Either way. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pass by it for right now, 17 both those next two. Then we're almost done. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Let's take up Number 19 18 -- Item Number 18, which is consider and discuss a 20 Resolution to South Texas Judges and Commissioners 21 Association supporting local control of water-related issues 22 and support of the Senate Bill 1 process. Commissioner 23 Letz. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is a resolution that 25 I prepared, and the title of it -- I think what the Judge 165 1 has stated pretty much sums it up. It is a resolution that 2 I would propose that we send to the South Texas County 3 Judges and Commissioners Association, and probably ask them 4 to incorporate this resolution in one of their resolutions 5 that come out of that organization. And, it's basically 6 just a resolution that states that we support the process 7 set up in Senate Bill 1, which is that, you know, water 8 planning is done from a local bottoms-up process, and that 9 the -- we hope that the Legislature follows the regional 10 plans when it comes to them putting together the state plan, 11 and then they follow their state plan and legislation they 12 pass. 13 Anyway, it seems pretty, you know, simplistic 14 and almost like you shouldn't even need to say that, but I 15 know that the Legislature right now is working on -- a lot 16 of different legislators are working on a lot of bills that 17 are not what are coming out of regional plans, from what I'm 18 hearing, and I think they need to be told if they're going 19 to mandate a plan -- and this County spent a lot of money, 20 and -- as the other counties around the state have, and a 21 tremendous amount of man hours have been committed to this 22 project and the way of doing business in the state, and I 23 think that they should follow what they have mandated us to 24 do. And, that's the resolution. I make a motion that we 25 adopt it. 166 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 3 seconded by Commissioner Williams, that we adopt the 4 resolution supporting local control of water-related issues 5 and support of the Senate Bill 1 process. Any further 6 comments or questions? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a comment also, 8 I think it maybe might be worthwhile to send this to our 9 legislators, as well, Jeff Wentworth and Harvey. 10 Generically, I think would it apply to them as well. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Siemers? 12 MR. SIEMERS: Is this to differentiate 13 between ground water/surface water, or all-inclusive as far 14 as you're concerned? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All-inclusive. 16 MR. SIEMERS: Thank you. 17 (Commissioner Baldwin returned to courtroom.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. It's been moved and 19 seconded that we adopt the resolution supporting local 20 control of water-related issues. All in favor, raise your 21 right hand. 22 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay. Let's 167 1 do Item Number 19 right quickly, consider and discuss 2 revising the plans for Commissioners Court courtroom to 3 retain the existing historical lights instead of replacing 4 them with fluorescent lights. 5 It's been brought to my attention recently 6 that the plans for the renovation of the annex include 7 dropping the ceiling in here, which has to be done in order 8 to accommodate the duct work for upstairs, but also includes 9 replacing these light fixtures with the fluorescent lights 10 that are out in the foyer of the Commissioners' offices. I 11 personally prefer this style of lights, and I've been told 12 by Mr. Longnecker that there will be no adverse economic 13 impact in retaining these lights, as opposed to replacing 14 them with fluorescent lights. I wanted to ask the Court's 15 permission to change the plans to retain these lights, as 16 opposed to replacing them with fluorescent lights. This 17 will have no impact whatsoever on dropping the ceiling, 18 which does have to happen in order to accommodate the -- the 19 renovation of the -- of the Clerk's office upstairs. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree, and I'm glad you 21 caught that before it was done. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How low are they 23 going to drop the ceiling, Judge? 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: To basically the top of the 25 windows, so just below the beams. We'll be running cables 168 1 in there for -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good idea, keep the 3 lighting. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Do -- did you make a 5 motion? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 9 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court approve 10 revising the plans for redoing the ceiling in the 11 Commissioners Courtroom to retain the existing lights 12 instead of replacing them with fluorescent lights. Any 13 further discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right 14 hand. 15 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Let's go 19 back to Item 14, consider and discuss outside audit of the 20 Jail and Sheriff's Department and detailed inventory of 21 same. Commissioner Baldwin. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. 23 I put this on the agenda to -- more than anything, just to 24 have a dialogue and a conversation about it. I have spoken 25 with Sheriff Hierholzer, and I'm -- I'm going to let him 169 1 make a comment on that, but it seems to me that he -- he 2 feels like an audit's not in -- not in order, although I 3 feel like we should have one. I feel like we need to do -- 4 so we can see how the -- you know, when the Sheriff takes 5 over the office, that everything is clear and clean and that 6 all the numbers are in order, et cetera. Now, even if we 7 don't do that, I'd certainly hope that a detailed inventory 8 is done out there, and I understand there's a possibility 9 that has been done; is that right? Sheriff Hierholzer? 10 (Sheriff shook his head.) 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I got some bad 12 information this morning. I apologize for making that 13 statement. But, I'd like to ask him at this time what he -- 14 his thoughts are on an audit of the Sheriff's Office. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Before we do that, I believe, 16 Tommy, you had a comment? Before we hear from the Sheriff, 17 Tommy, go ahead. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably going to be a 19 moot deal, so -- 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I don't know if 21 it's going to be a moot deal or not. This is one of the 22 files I found in a box out there, and what y'all can see in 23 it is exactly what I have. And I have no idea of anything 24 other than that. What it shows is supposedly the Sheriff's 25 Office, at two different times, has gotten authority through 170 1 the Court or whatever and did have safety-deposit boxes 2 somewhere, some of them with CD's in excess of $20,000. 3 There's envelopes in there with even a little bit of cash in 4 it and some CD receipts. I have no idea what it is. I have 5 no idea if we still have safety-deposit boxes anywhere. 6 Tommy has no knowledge of any safety-deposit boxes or -- or 7 anything else. I don't know. Okay? 8 One of the court orders says it was to hold 9 seized funds in. Some of these go back to when Charles 10 Schreiner Bank was here. Some of them may have been where 11 somebody put up CD's for a bond, getting an inmate out of 12 jail or something like that, which is the only thing I can 13 figure at this point. But that really shouldn't have gone 14 into a safety-deposit box at the Sheriff's Office; it should 15 have gone to the appropriate court wherever the charges have 16 been filed, so I have problems with that. I just don't know 17 what we have. 18 Some of the other problems I've had with -- 19 Tommy and I have come to an agreement to where, from now on, 20 when bills come in -- a lot of times, bills in the past have 21 evidently been coming straight to Tommy's office, to where 22 the Sheriff's Office -- I never saw them, never put my 23 initial on them to ask that they be approved. Budget 24 amendments were being done the same way, to where I never 25 knew a budget amendment was being done or asked for until 171 1 after the fact that it had been done. And Tommy and I have 2 spoken about that and come up with an agreement that if it 3 doesn't have my initials on it, then I wouldn't want y'all 4 to approve it until I -- so I know so I can keep track of -- 5 line item by line item, of what we have coming out. 6 We have instituted some things at the 7 Sheriff's Office which I think will help. One is we are now 8 doing purchase order numbers, to where if officers or 9 administration, if they need items, they've got to have a 10 purchase order that we're issuing between the secretary and 11 myself. We have installed Quicken into the Sheriff's Office 12 computer out there, where we can keep up day-by-day with 13 bills and what have been approved and haven't been approved 14 and what's been paid for, because it's just about a mess 15 trying to figure a lot of that out. 16 Now, when you get into the inventory part, in 17 going through the files of what I would find out there, the 18 last actual inventory that I could find the Sheriff's Office 19 had was in 1992. Tommy gave me a printout of an inventory 20 that he has, which has a lot of things on it which are still 21 there. It has a whole lot of things that are not on it that 22 I don't know. I know, even from back in the '80's, when I 23 was with the Sheriff's Office, the Sheriff's Office has 24 always had guns and M-14's that were furnished the deputies 25 in the patrol cars. We've had sniper rifles; there's not a 172 1 single one of those on any inventory. You know, there's 2 just a whole lot of problems. There's a difference in the 3 number of bulletproof vests that Tommy has on the inventory 4 than what I can find out there. There's a difference in 5 light bars, there's a difference in equipment, chairs, 6 tables, whatever. I don't see anything really jibing with 7 what we have, compared to what we're supposed to have. And 8 I don't want to be held responsible for anything out there 9 until we can get it all straightened out. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Questions? Comments? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I mean -- 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I was just going to 14 say, the -- it sounds like, certainly, the inventory -- I 15 don't know if it needs to be done by an outside agency or 16 anything, but it's -- we certainly ought to do a detailed 17 inventory to account for anything that's missing. On 18 this -- I haven't looked at yet -- I have a suspicion this 19 is something we might want to turn over either to -- I'm not 20 sure whether it should go to the Auditor to try to figure it 21 out or -- or to the County Attorney. If there's 22 something -- I mean, it's just -- 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My other problem is how 24 many more things like this are we going to have? 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You'll just have -- 173 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I just don't know. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- have to try to keep 3 turning those up, I suppose. But that, specifically, on 4 this one, it may need to just be referred to somebody to try 5 to run to it ground, to see what it is. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my question to 7 the Sheriff is to -- I mean, do you think there's a need -- 8 I think we feel a need to at least, you know, have an 9 inventory -- accurate inventory of what's in the Jail and 10 the Sheriff's Department control, what property the County 11 has. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question is, do you 14 have the time and the personnel to do that, or do we need to 15 authorize someone to assist you in that? I mean, I don't 16 think it would be of benefit to have to hire an outside 17 agency to do an inventory, per se; they'd just be wandering 18 around blind. You've got to help them. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One thing I would 20 suggest -- no, I don't have the time; I'd have to -- have to 21 pull a deputy off the street, which I think is totally 22 wrong, to come in and do an inventory. Some of it, maybe, 23 we can address -- and I didn't put it in my budget request, 24 'cause I didn't realize a lot of this, but some of the 25 things I think we're getting into could be addressed in the 174 1 budget, okay, as far as maybe a person that can assist us in 2 grant writing, because I'm very -- actual grant writing, 3 assist us in police inventories and property inventories 4 constantly of the Sheriff's Office, assist in disposal of 5 surplus property, getting those orders issued. You know, we 6 have seized vehicles out there that have been seized and are 7 owned by the Sheriff's Office, you know, since 1998, and the 8 thing is, nobody ever took the time or -- or the manpower to 9 go in and get those titles changed over where we can go 10 ahead and auction them off and get all that kind of stuff. 11 There's just a whole lot of that that fell through the 12 cracks, that I think it may be a decent position for a 13 civilian-type person that could definitely be full-time. 14 But that needs to be addressed in the budget process. 15 My problem is trying to get all this done 16 now. I've been in office two months. We don't -- I don't 17 feel we have an adequate handle on anything on the inventory 18 that we have. I really -- don't really know what we've got. 19 I'd hate to come up six months from now and some weapon 20 shows up somewhere that could be traced back gradually to 21 being one that the Sheriff's Office owned, and we never knew 22 it. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that file you 24 showed us, though, Sheriff, sort of suggests $30,000 in 25 certificates of deposit someplace. Is that what I'm seeing? 175 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: These -- you're seeing 2 what I saw, Commissioner, which is exactly that. I would 3 assume that that was to get an inmate at one time out of 4 jail. I think I know who the name is on there, as far as he 5 was probably an attorney, and I would assume that was all 6 returned. But all I'm doing there is assuming, 'cause I 7 have no records showing any of that. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: The Sheriff and I have talked 9 about this, and it's my feeling that we owe it to him to 10 give him an accurate inventory. And this is not to say 11 anything about the inventory we have kept, but we have to 12 look at manpower and the -- and the resources that we're 13 able to do those. I do believe that if we're going to have 14 an inventory done, it needs to be done by outside of the 15 Sheriff's Department, because if you have someone from 16 inside the Sheriff's Department, there's -- the inventory -- 17 not casting any aspersions on anybody, but there may be 18 particular occurrences that have taken place that they may 19 not want brought to the light of day. 20 So, my thought on the idea of an inventory is 21 you take the most recent inventory and you find someone, be 22 it an accounting firm or individual that we might trust, a 23 retired -- there's a number of retired military around the 24 county who have had extensive experience in T and P tables; 25 I know Commissioner Griffin has had quite a fair amount of 176 1 experience in that -- who could go in there and, in a matter 2 of probably three or four weeks, pull together an inventory 3 that compares what's on the existing inventory to what he or 4 she can actually find on the ground. I don't know where we 5 find the funds for that. I don't know what the cost is. 6 But, to me, that's -- that's the way we ought to be headed 7 with this particular problem. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the agenda 9 item -- 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't think an audit at 11 this time is appropriate, because we have -- we know where 12 all the money came in and went out. I've talked to the 13 Sheriff, and he doesn't believe that there's any illegal 14 improprieties that took place with regard to money. Is that 15 correct? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I cannot see at this 17 point -- I haven't discovered anything that could be 18 construed as being illegal out there. But every day that I 19 get into old files and things like that, I'm finding other 20 things I have no idea. But if it were to come to that, then 21 I would immediately back out and let some other agency come 22 in. But at this point -- you know, there was a lot of shell 23 game playing; maybe it was just like for different 24 Commissioners Courts or whatever in the past, where money 25 was used from one area into another area, but I can't see 177 1 that money's actually ever left the department. I think we 2 should be able to put together a complete fact record of the 3 money, but I'm more concerned about myself, from the day I 4 took office forward. If y'all want to look into any of that 5 back stuff -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess the -- 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- I'll open it up. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, I'm hearing two 9 things; one good, one bad. And, one, the overall budget 10 number sounds to be, I guess, intact, and nothing was 11 misappropriated or spent wrongly or over -- I guess over the 12 budget. But the other side, I'm hearing "shell game," which 13 to me almost implies that money was spent where it wasn't 14 intended by the Court in the budget process, and that's 15 where I have a problem. And that's going back to the whole 16 thing we had with the -- some of those concerns we had 17 earlier. And I'm not worried about -- hopefully -- I'd be 18 surprised if any money was disappearing. I'm more concerned 19 about this Commissioners Court approving a budget and then 20 having anybody in the county not spending the money as 21 directed in that budget, and that's -- I have a real problem 22 with that. We go through the exercise, I take it very 23 seriously, and I expect when we put money in this line item, 24 that it stays in that line item unless it's moved by this 25 Court. And that's where -- and I'm hearing "shell game." 178 1 That's what I'm almost hearing, and that's -- I've got a 2 real concern about that. And that, to me, does mean an 3 audit. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm going to disagree with 5 you. That, technically, isn't an audit. You're talking 6 about somebody doing -- going back and doing an 7 investigation of the -- of the use of the funds as it was 8 appropriated. That's technically not an audit. An audit is 9 a photograph of the money at a particular point in time; how 10 it came in, how it went out. If you're talking about an 11 investigation, which is what -- really what you're 12 describing, that's -- that's a different animal. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not sure we need 14 to -- the cost may be so high that, I mean, after I hear 15 that, I may not want to do the investigation, anyway. But I 16 just think -- I'm real concerned about that. I wouldn't -- 17 you know, I don't take that lightly, and I -- if I'm using 18 the wrong term, forgive me. We need an investigation of the 19 budget expenditures, and that's what I'm asking for -- or 20 concerned about. And if the Sheriff feels that he has a 21 concern in that area, then I think an investigation of that 22 is necessary. I have no idea -- I mean, I'm a very trusting 23 person, and I'm assuming that when we approve the budget, 24 that other elected officials and department heads are 25 spending it where it's designated through the Treasurer's 179 1 office or Auditor's office. They see that it is, and -- but 2 if there's a concern that it's not, I think we need to be, 3 you know, advised of that. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I have a -- to 5 see if we can separate those things, the agenda item talks 6 about an outside audit of the Jail and Sheriff's Department, 7 and a detailed inventory. A detailed inventory is pretty -- 8 pretty obvious what that's all about; talking about 9 equipment, supplies, and things of that nature, and we're 10 detailing all of that and we're listing them. An outside 11 audit gives me some concern. What are we trying to 12 determine with an outside audit that hasn't been determined 13 by the Auditor? That's my question. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I think that's why the 15 term "outside audit" is misleading, because we're not trying 16 to duplicate what the Auditor has done. What the suggestion 17 is, is someone needs to go in and -- and go back a number of 18 years, and that's some parameter we'll have to set, and 19 compare the budget, the line items, with the actual 20 expenditure of funds and compare those. If that's -- that's 21 what I'm hearing you saying you think needs -- may need to 22 be done. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm hearing. 24 But, I also know -- I mean, I know that our Auditor makes 25 sure that those numbers will -- I mean, that all the 180 1 accounts balance, and they do. I mean -- and, I mean, we 2 get a monthly report on that. But I guess when I'm hearing 3 Sheriff Hierholzer talk about shell games, it almost sounds 4 like, "Well, we spent out of this category, but it was 5 really spent over here." I don't know how you even 6 determine that in an investigation, really. I mean -- 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, it's expensive, is how 8 it is. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Very expensive. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: You go back and give them the 11 budget; they basically go through each bill that was paid 12 out of that budget and find what it was paid for, and then 13 try to match it up with the line item for which it was 14 appropriated. You're talking about a very expensive 15 proposition, depending upon how many years you want to go 16 back. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, to me, at this 18 point, based on what's on the agenda and -- and what the 19 Sheriff has said and what our -- from the conversation with 20 the Auditor earlier, I'm in favor of the inventory now, and 21 if there's a need to go back further -- if there's any, you 22 know, indication that the money wasn't spent right, I think 23 we need to look at it. I'd leave it up to the Sheriff and 24 the Auditor to come back to the Court if they think we need 25 to look at it, but let them do that. I'm concerned that 181 1 there is a -- I'm going to support looking into it and would 2 want to look into it if there's an indication that money 3 wasn't spent where it should have been spent. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: My suggestion at this time is 5 going to be to allow the Sheriff and myself to do some 6 informal inquiry as to what -- what people would charge for 7 inventorying, and not committing anything, just get some 8 idea of magnitude. Bring it back at the next meeting or so 9 and see if we want to -- provided, you know, if it's under 10 $25,000, we don't have to bid it. But that would be my 11 suggestion. If anyone has any -- any names of individuals 12 or firms that would be likely candidates to do this work, 13 tell either myself or the Sheriff and we will contact them. 14 I don't -- I don't think it has to necessarily be an 15 accounting firm. That's the most logical choice, but, I 16 mean, it may not be the most economical choice. We need -- 17 Barbara, you have a comment? 18 MS. NEMEC: I just want to comment on what 19 Commissioner Letz was saying about the audit and taking 20 money from a certain line item and buying something else, in 21 particular. And, this -- I speak on behalf of all the 22 departments and all the elected officials. I really believe 23 that that would be very, very difficult to do. Because, for 24 one, the Auditor sees that expenditure, I see that 25 expenditure, and at the very end -- at the very end, the 182 1 Commissioners Court sees that on their fund requirement, and 2 that's the purpose for that process. So, now to go back 3 however many years, I don't understand it, 'cause we've -- 4 that's what the process is the way it is for. And so you 5 see it on that fund requirement what's being spent; they're 6 pretty detailed, and I would think that if -- if y'all 7 hadn't caught it, the Auditor would have. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We -- it's a quick answer 10 to that; we look at a summary sheet. And, I mean, I do not 11 look at every -- and research every -- you know, when we get 12 our monthly bills, look at every check and go see where 13 they're going. I'm trusting that the Auditor, the 14 department heads, you and everyone else has gone through 15 and looked at them. I'm looking for anything that jumps 16 out, more as a question as to why the expenditure was made. 17 I don't have the time -- I don't think anyone, you know, can 18 go in and look at every expenditure, try to make sure it 19 comes out of the budget. That's what the rest of the 20 employees of the county try to do, and I don't intend to 21 change it; you know, they can handle that. I just -- you 22 know, and I've never had a question -- the first time it was 23 brought up has been by the current Sheriff, has brought up 24 there may be some question in the Sheriff's Department, and 25 that's why discussions have come up. And if there's a need 183 1 to investigate it, I'm in favor of investigating it. If 2 there's not a need, then there's no need to. But, what I 3 was going to mention, I would recommend -- I have no problem 4 with the Judge and Sheriff, but I recommend the Auditor also 5 be included in that discussion, because the Auditor -- 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sure. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- is a person who has 8 kind of kept inventory lists for the county for as long as 9 I've been on the Court. He's probably more familiar with it 10 than anybody else with exactly what -- you know, how those 11 lists are compiled and what's the best way to proceed on 12 that. So, I just -- you know. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, my main concerns 14 are, one, knowing exactly what property that department has. 15 I don't want to be responsible for it if it's gone or we 16 don't know; that's my number one concern. My number two 17 concern is getting in place some procedures and 18 accountability where I know and have a way of tracking. 19 Like I said, I think Tommy and have I worked that out now, 20 to know exactly what's being spent out of what line items, 21 where my approval gets put on it, whether it's mail or bills 22 mailed directly to Tommy or to us, where it should be in 23 keeping track of that. So, I'm more concerned about, for 24 now, into the future. If whatever was turned back in at the 25 end of last year's budget, when that was concluded, you 184 1 know, the Commissioners Court's happy with that money matter 2 or whatever, how that end of that budget came out, then 3 that's up to y'all. I want -- I don't want to say yes, I 4 think we need to go back two or three years and audit all 5 the money that was out there, because, to be honest, 6 that's -- that's not my concern, unless y'all think, through 7 the process Barbara is saying, that there was something 8 wrong. I don't see where the bottom line of the money ever 9 went outside of that department. I'm having a hard time 10 figuring out this year's budget and turning in the best I 11 could, because I don't know what was actually spent out of 12 what line items because everything was shuffled around. 13 But, you know, we're doing the best we can, and my main 14 concern is in the future, not the past. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is that a -- acceptable for 16 you, that you and I and Tommy work together to bring back at 17 the next meeting a scenario or proposal for the inventory? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, that's acceptable. 19 I would like to get it done as soon as possible because, 20 like I said, I've been in office two months so far, and I 21 don't want -- you know, I don't want to accept an inventory 22 of whatever's there without knowing what it is. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, it seems to me 25 that you could get volunteers from the former County 185 1 Commissioners -- and particularly any that are sitting in 2 this room today -- to do it. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Judge -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bruce and Gordon's 5 here, lookie here. 6 (Discussion off the record.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. We'll come back 8 next meeting. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As long as I can watch 10 over them if they're going to do it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank y'all. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, we're going to 15 recess the current -- the Commissioners Court meeting for 16 purposes of conducting a public workshop on the proposed 17 revisions to the O.S.S.F. rules. Procedurally, how we're 18 going to proceed with this, we're going to have an overview 19 from Mr. Brown, as General Manager of the U.G.R.A., U.G.R.A. 20 being our designated representative on O.S.S.F. matters. 21 After Mr. Brown finishes his presentation, including any 22 technical information that he deems necessary, we're going 23 to have comments from the Commissioners or discussions 24 between the Commissioners and Mr. Brown, and after that 25 discussion, then we'll open it up for public comment. 186 1 Please, I ask you, when it comes to public comments, to keep 2 your comments brief and to the point and avoid any 3 repetition, if we can. Some of us would like to get supper 4 tonight at some point. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's been pointed out to us 7 that there's about 20 people outside wanting to participate 8 in this. We want everyone to participate. The district 9 courtroom upstairs is available, so we are going to move 10 this public workshop upstairs to the district courtroom. If 11 y'all please, take your seats behind the rail, and then 12 Commissioners and presenters will then be able to face you 13 from up in the courtroom. Let's move up there as 14 expeditiously as we can, and we'll start about 2:15. 15 (The open meeting was recessed at 2:10 p.m., and a workshop was held, the transcript of 16 which is contained in a separate document.) 17 - - - - - - - - - - 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's 4:30 on Monday, June the 19 12th. We'll return to the regularly posted Commissioners 20 Court agenda. When we discussed the bills, we deferred 21 action on two invoices from Nash and Associates. Do we wish 22 at this time to go back and take action on those? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I make a motion to pay 24 those two bills. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 187 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 2 second by Commissioner Baldwin, that we approve the two 3 invoices in favor of Nash and Associates. Any further 4 discussion? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 5 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay. Yes, 9 sir? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Postage -- 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Postage for Barbara Nemec. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Item 2.20 -- 2.21. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm not sure that we have 14 that posted for action. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, all I was going 16 to comment was that the Auditor believed that that was an 17 appropriate expenditure from the Nondepartmental. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Nondepartmental what? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nondepartmental. 20 The -- 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Contingency? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Contingency, I'm 23 sorry. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: It's on the agenda, then. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll take this in the 188 1 neighbor -- in the nature of an oral budget amendment, 2 'cause budget amendments are not formally listed, and we'll 3 consider -- how much? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm going to need 5 about -- about a hundred and -- $132 worth of postage. That 6 gives Thea some extras after we get finished that we have 7 not used. We'll probably use 300 to 350; that's funding for 8 400. If we don't use them, we could put them at Thea's 9 disposal. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: So that the oral budget 11 amendment is to transfer $132 from Nondepartmental 12 Contingency to Commissioners Court Postage. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And authorize a hand 14 check for the Postmaster to purchase same. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that line -- go 16 ahead. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question I have is, is 18 this -- well, one, does this also cover any kind of -- cover 19 the letters or whatever's going to go out in invitation form 20 and -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What I was going to 22 do is, to me, the letter would just be Xeroxed. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other part of it, 24 is there -- the grant funds, I think it would be appropriate 25 to take it out of that if there's any left, and I think our 189 1 budget was a little bit less than the $20,000. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with you. I 3 mentioned that to Tommy, but his situation, it came back, 4 was that at this time, since there are some outstanding 5 bills, just take it out of Nondepartmental Contingency for 6 now. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: I would not want to have 8 enough -- we don't have a bill from -- from the surveyor, 9 whatever, repair for the stalls. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: So I'd rather have what's 12 available for those purposes, rather than somewhere else. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So that our line -- 14 our mail line item is depleted? 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Has been several times during 16 the course of the year. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And -- well, I tell 18 you a cheap way to do it; we'll just go upstairs here and 19 just tell everybody we're going to talk about septic tanks. 20 You can round them up right there; there they are. Won't 21 have to spend a penny. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We might need both 23 new courtrooms. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do I have a motion to -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move that we 190 1 authorize expenditure of the postage, 400 postage stamps, 2 $132, I believe, and to be taken from the Nondepartmental 3 Contingency Fund, and authorize the Auditor to authorize a 4 hand check for the purpose of purchasing. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 7 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 8 transfer $132 from Nondepartmental Contingency to 9 Commissioners Court Postage, and authorize issuance of a 10 hand check in that amount payable to the Postmaster. Any 11 further comments or questions? If not, all in favor, raise 12 your right hand. 13 (Commissioners Williams, Letz, and Griffin indicated by raised hand that they were in 14 favor of the motion.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 16 (Commissioner Baldwin indicated by raised hand that he was against the motion.) 17 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm voting no, please. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Thank you. 21 MS. BARBEE: You're voting no? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On that same topic, 24 Commissioner Baldwin voted against the scheduling workshop. 25 My question is, if it was rushed, the time we set it, then 191 1 that's -- the time framework was being pushed because of 2 budget, but at the same time, I think it's important that 3 the Commissioners are in tune and in agreement before we go 4 forward and then have to backtrack later. And I just 5 wondered if it was a matter of Commissioner Baldwin 6 disagreeing with what we're doing or disagreeing with the 7 fact he hadn't had time to look at it yet? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As I stated, I haven't 9 had time to look at it. It was basically sprung on me, what 10 we were -- what we're doing here. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What do you mean? I 12 don't know if we delayed the -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the rush? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's just budget, trying 15 to get it in. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait till next year. 17 What's the rush? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, I think my 19 preference personally would probably be to defer the meeting 20 to get the Court unanimous, and I don't mind it if we 21 haven't had time to look at it. But, we voted on it. It 22 was just my feeling, you know, to go that route. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you know, I just 24 want to be careful what I'm doing. I mean, you're talking 25 about a lot of money here. A lot of money, and I want to be 192 1 real careful. And today's the first time I've seen this. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand. 3 Commissioner Williams and I have looked at it, obviously, 4 for months now. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And your opening 6 comment on the thing was something like that where we are 7 today is, is this Court going to -- and you didn't use the 8 word "endorse," but in my mind it sounded like a cousin to 9 the word endorse -- and move forward with it, and I'm 10 just -- I'm not ready to do that. But you got -- it's okay. 11 I mean, I'm not going to go out there and -- and make a 12 bunch of noise that y'all are doing something wrong or bad. 13 It's not a big deal. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not going to be a 16 big deal. Nobody's even going to know I voted no. 17 MS. BARBEE: That's true. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not -- I know 19 where you're coming from. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just don't want the -- 21 I mean, the Court -- I mean, it's hard to go out on 22 something that's going to cost $6.8 million and would be a 23 bond issue, to have a divided court before we ever get out 24 of the block. I just want to make -- you know, it's better 25 to wait -- I mean, better to wait, in my mind. But, you 193 1 know, if you don't think it's that big a deal -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We don't know what 3 kind of bond issue. It could be a revenue bond, it could be 4 general obligation bonds. Nobody's made any of these 5 decisions. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I think two weeks 7 isn't going to make any difference in the decision. If it 8 takes two weeks longer for the Court to get behind it, so be 9 it. I would rather wait two weeks than to rush into 10 something that there may be a -- you know, rather than have 11 to backtrack after it's presented to the public. That's my 12 point. And if it's -- you know, and I'm not -- I kind of 13 tossed it out for the rest of the Court. If we go forward, 14 we can reconsider and go back; doesn't make any difference 15 to me, really. I'm very comfortable and aware of it. 16 Commissioner Williams is comfortable; he and I have worked 17 on it. It's the other two Commissioners and Judge that are 18 probably not as familiar with what this is. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'm comfortable with 20 it, because, as the Judge said, I think at this point we 21 separate the funding question from the concept question. 22 And this is to present the concept, to see what kind of 23 community support and general interest there may be, and we 24 may never get to the funding end of it. So, I feel very 25 comfortable. 194 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: The next item I think we have 3 to consider is Item 2.13. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which one? 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: 15, sorry. Consider and 6 discuss extending an invitation to South Texas Commissioners 7 and Judges Association to conduct its 2000 meeting in 8 Kerrville, to be the host for Commissioners Court Night, and 9 request that Kerrville Convention Visitors Bureau make a 10 formal presentation to the site collection committee during 11 the June 28th to 30th meeting in Austin. Commissioner 12 Williams. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My colleague to my 14 immediate right is soon to become the president of South 15 Texas Commissioners and Judges Association -- or Judges and 16 Commissioners, whichever is appropriate. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is this right? Right, 18 okay. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's you. And he 20 and I had an opportunity to talk about the meeting -- 21 forthcoming meeting, which is in Austin, coming up later 22 this month. And, subsequently -- and the immediate 23 subsequent meeting in 2001 will be in Beaumont, and it 24 hasn't been in Kerrville in -- what? Five years, six years, 25 something like that? 195 1 MS. SOVIL: Six. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Six years. And we 3 thought it might not be a bad idea if we extended an 4 invitation to all those good folks to revisit our town, our 5 county, and we host that Court Night and see if we can 6 convince the site selection committee to go along with this. 7 So, that was the sense of our discussion, wasn't it? 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is that a motion? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is a motion. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My only comment, before 12 we vote on that, is the Visitors Bureau or Chamber and 13 Visitors Bureau are willing and want to put on a -- 14 hopefully, a better presentation than they did last time, or 15 a more enthusiastic presentation. We made a presentation 16 together at the last meeting, and I think the reason we 17 didn't get it was because there was a much more fanfare-type 18 promotion presentation by another city. And I think if it's 19 not going to be promoted and pushed by the organization that 20 brings us to Kerr County, I don't see a lot of point doing 21 it. We don't do it ourselves; those organizations have to 22 do this. And do they want it -- to do it? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They're perfectly 24 willing to do that, and I -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 196 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- I assume they'll 2 do an enthusiastic presentation. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Tell them we want 4 lights, bells, and whistles. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: I forgot who did what. 7 MS. SOVIL: The only thing -- can I add a -- 8 an insertion? That they want the Commissioners' full 9 support to go in with them when they make the presentation. 10 So that you should show a unified -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we would 12 defer to Commissioner Baldwin. He's going to be the chair 13 there. He can decide which of us or if any of us assist in 14 that. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've actually -- I've 16 left that up to Sudie, and I told her what we had seen the 17 last year. And it is kind of impressive to see a County 18 Judge or a County Commissioner to come in the presentation 19 and say, yes, we want you guys in our community. That 20 impresses people. It might not seem like a big deal, but it 21 did, it impressed some folks when it happened to us last 22 year, and I -- so I volunteered Fred to do that. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's good. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And see -- see how 25 easy he is? We appreciate that, too. No, I told her I 197 1 would be happy to do it. I'm sure Fred would be happy, any 2 of us or all of us. So, I kind of left it up to Sudie to -- 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: When's that meeting taking 4 place? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wednesday afternoon. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: I wasn't planning on going 7 over till Thursday morning, but I guess I'll go over 8 Wednesday afternoon. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Commissioner Letz and 10 I will be there. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'll go. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We'll be there. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'll be happy to volunteer to 14 go to that one. That means then I won't be volunteered to 15 be in charge of Commissioners Court Night. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, Fred's out. I'm 17 going to do this thing. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bill made the motion. 19 MS. SOVIL: We need to talk about that. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have lots of time 21 to talk about it, though. We have to secure the convention 22 first. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bill and Buster. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's been moved by 25 Commissioner Williams, seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, 198 1 that the Court request that the Kerrville Convention and 2 Visitors Bureau make a formal presentation to the South 3 Texas County Judges and Commissioners Association, extending 4 an invitation to that association to conduct its 2000 5 meeting in Kerrville during the 2000 convention to be held 6 in Austin during the June 28th to June 30th. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 2002, Judge. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: To conduct its 2002 meeting 9 in Kerrville, correct. Any further discussion? If not, all 10 in favor, raise your right hand. 11 (The motion was carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 15 16, consider and discuss the update on the revised Kerr 16 County Subdivision Rules and Regulations. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Considering the time of 18 the day and the length of the meeting, we're not -- probably 19 not going to go over this. Some things I would like to try 20 to get resolved is the more conceptual or big picture type 21 things that -- terminology and things, just so we can, on 22 the next draft, work on really getting these things more 23 honed down. And some of them may seem silly, but if we go 24 back and forth on them -- number of copies of plats that 25 we're requesting. It used to be six. It's been changed to 199 1 ten by someone's request, and I think today we have probably 2 six copies sitting over here that no one wants. So, I mean, 3 we need to get -- I think, you know, there's no reason to 4 get ten copies if we're not using ten, and we're clearly not 5 using ten copies right now. What do we need, just so we can 6 get a number in there? Six is what we used to do. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Six. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Six. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Six? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: You know, I sign two. Beyond 11 that, it's kind of superfluous. If we want three for the 12 Court and one for the Commissioner whose precinct it's in, 13 that comes up to six. Whatever. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Whatever formula you need to 16 work out. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. We'll go 18 with -- six is what we used to have. This is really a minor 19 thing. We refer to "replat" and "revision of plat," and 20 it's confusing in terminology, as you know, having both 21 terms, and they're the same. And is there a preference on 22 either one? Really, in the Local Government Code, I think 23 "revision" is closer, but is there -- what is the 24 preference? Do you want to call it a replat or a revision 25 of plat? Just so we can be consistent. 200 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's really a 2 revision, is it not? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, it's a revision of 4 plat. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, revision of plat. 7 See how quick we are? On to water. We -- the basic 8 question I have is, there is a -- once we adopt the rules, 9 basically, you know, you're going to have some well 10 requirements and drill requirements in subdivisions. 11 Headwaters gets a lot of responsibility all of a sudden. I 12 have never talked to Headwaters to see if they have the 13 staff or the people getting ready to jump in and do this 14 right now, and I -- you know, it dawned on me when I was 15 reading these things on the way to Washington the other 16 day -- nothing to do for three hours -- that it really, 17 probably -- we need to make sure that they have the staff 18 immediately there to step in and start approving these 19 things. I mean, from -- you know, immediately being 30, 45 20 days from now, when we are able to approve the new 21 Subdivision Rules and Regulations. And I don't know where 22 they are, and I hadn't talked to them; I just wanted to find 23 out what we need to do there to have that not bog us down. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Of course, the water 25 availability rules are written in the alternative. You can 201 1 satisfy them either with an engineer or by submitting the 2 data to Headwaters, so there is that alternative. It's my 3 understanding from Headwaters that they have a very serious 4 candidate for the administrator, who would probably be no 5 more than about 30 days, and once that takes place, then 6 they would be in a position to give us an opinion on any 7 potential subdivider who went to them for advice to the 8 Court, as opposed to the engineer on their own. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but, like, right 10 now, even aside from that, I mean, there are -- data has to 11 be submitted, you know, pump tests and other stuff. That 12 data has to get submitted to someone, in turn, not counting 13 the determination of or interpreting the data. But there's 14 just some -- there's a lot of -- we're creating a whole 15 bunch of paperwork. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, the way the water 17 availability requirements are written, again, is the 18 subdivider has to perform certain tests. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: And then they can either have 21 their engineer certify it to the County that there's 22 sufficient water under the property in question to service 23 that property, or they can submit the data to Headwaters and 24 have Headwaters advise the Court as to whether or not 25 there's sufficient water under the property for the 202 1 building. That's the way it's drafted. It is an 2 alternative, and only -- well, Headwaters is the second 3 alternative or the first alternative, depending on which way 4 you want to look at it. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, it's Item 6 47, submit to Commissioners Court and/or Headwaters a map of 7 the proposed subdivision that shows location of the well, 8 and there's five or six paragraphs where there's 9 documents -- paper or tests that are submitted to 10 Commissioners Court and/or Headwaters. Well, first of all, 11 to me, it is confusing to the public to have "and/or" in 12 there. I mean, they need to be told to give it to both or 13 to one. If you have "or," then we're not going to be sure 14 what they're getting. And they can give it to us, but we 15 don't know when they get it. It ought to be designated that 16 they have to give that information to one person or two 17 persons all the time. 18 But my question is that, you know, we don't 19 have a setup on the Commissioners Court, you know, for -- a 20 file set up to where -- to do with these things; if we start 21 getting in pump tests, what we're going to do with them. 22 So, we need to set up a process on the Commissioners Court, 23 what do we do with this stuff? Or if we're going to have it 24 go to Headwaters, the next -- make sure they're set up to 25 handle the date we approve the documents. That's just my 203 1 concern, because it's something very new that I never really 2 had thought about -- thought this part of it through before, 3 that we need to have a way to handle the flow of paper 4 that's going to follow, where it's going to be housed and 5 that type of thing. And that's more -- you know, it doesn't 6 need to be resolved right now. Something to start working 7 on. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And figure out what to 10 do. The other thing we talked about, again, upstairs a 11 little bit, I think we really need to start making a 12 decision on lot size, if we're going to increase it or not. 13 You know, I think this is a -- just what the Court wants to 14 do. I mean, do we just want to arbitrarily leave it the 15 same? Increase it? Because it starts -- you know, I guess 16 I'm -- it's difficult to write the new draft when we keep on 17 putting off decisions. And this is one of the decisions 18 that has -- you know, starts affecting five or six places in 19 the document every time we change something like this, so we 20 need to make sure we, you know, get them all changed, you 21 know, going in. And if we are sincerely -- sincerely going 22 to think of increasing the lot size, I think we need to go 23 ahead and start putting it in the draft version, so when it 24 goes out, the public is aware of it. I don't think it's 25 something we can change at the public hearing type thing if 204 1 we've already really talked about it. So, that's just, 2 again -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I say we leave it the 4 same, leave it like it is. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, I think we -- to 7 be consistent, that's what we have done with the O.S.S.F. 8 rules as of this minute. It may -- that can change, but we 9 need to be consistent, so I think we have to leave it the 10 same for now for sure, because we haven't changed the 11 O.S.S.F. rules. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, the two documents need 13 to be the same. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's right. And 15 so -- 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think that we -- 18 O.S.S.F., I don't think, can change it. I think we can 19 change it easier than they can change it. I don't think you 20 can change it for the septic, but because of water 21 availability. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we can change it, and 24 then they have to change it. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: They can change it and then 205 1 we have to change it. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have to change the rules. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's right. We're 5 going to do both of the -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or to be almost -- you 7 know, to be silent. You have a minimum lot size. You could 8 almost let their rules be silent if we're addressing it in 9 our rules. You don't have to address a separate section in 10 O.S.S.F. rules if it's in the Subdivision Rules with lot 11 sizes. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Water availability 13 and well spacing, I think, are primarily issues -- those two 14 concern me. I think the minimum lot size in situations 15 where the developer proposes that each individual lot is 16 responsible for septic and well should be fine, and give 17 credit and make concessions downward in situations where 18 they either provide a simple water system, adjust their lot 19 size, or provide a simple sewer system and a simple water 20 system, that it can even come down smaller than that. I 21 think we need to take a look at that. I think we -- if we 22 keep punching holes in that aquifer on 2 1/2 acre lots, then 23 I think we have -- we're creating our own problems. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: There is no state minimum 25 number. 206 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No state minimum, so 2 we're -- 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: There's state setback 4 requirements. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Setback. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Setback into a kind of a 7 de facto minimum. You have to have a 150-foot radius 8 sanitary easement around a well. So, if you start thinking 9 about -- you have a well, and 150 feet, and then a septic 10 and a drainfield and a house, you're back into a pretty 11 substantial lot size just to have it work out. So -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think what we talked 13 about before was that -- something that we -- if you have 14 a -- a central water system and central septic or central 15 wastewater, then there's no minimum lot size. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. You could go 17 down to zero lot line if you wanted to. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you have a central 19 water system, then you have a one-acre minimum. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then if you have an 22 individual well and an on-site septic, then it goes to -- 23 that's the question, 2 1/2, 3. You say 5 right now is what 24 you set out, so we have right now 2 1/2 there and a 5 here. 25 And -- 207 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I -- I think we're 2 deluding ourselves if we think we can continue to subdivide 3 Kerr County into 2 1/2 acre lots, because of the -- the 4 impact on the water, as well as traffic and everything else. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, with 2 1/2 acre 6 lots, with every one of those having a septic system and a 7 well. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would agree that 10 that's delusional. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: So I would be in favor of 12 something larger than 2 1/2. Five, I think, is about the 13 maximum that we can support under any scenario. Yes, sir? 14 MR. SPEARS: Is there any room for comment 15 from the outside? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sure. 17 MR. SPEARS: Have you had any -- 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Identify yourself, please. 19 MR. SPEARS: My name is Sam Spears. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, Sam? 21 MR. SPEARS: I think there's been a number of 22 counties that have attempted to raise the minimum lot size 23 to 5 acres and larger, and the state has not allowed this to 24 take place. Has there been any research on this? 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: The state really doesn't have 208 1 anything to do with that. 2 MR. SPEARS: The state has come back -- to my 3 knowledge, has come back and said that there's no 4 justification for the 5-acre minimum lot size on -- on a -- 5 on an on-site sewer system and private well. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's based on water 7 availability, this new authority that counties have been 8 given, and I don't know that it's been tested in court yet. 9 I know that Bandera County and Kendall County are over 10 2 1/2; they're both at 5 now. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think they went 12 to 5. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To my knowledge, it 14 hasn't been tested in court yet, though I'm sure it may be 15 at some point. But it's a -- it's the new -- it is fairly 16 clear, I think, as I understand it, that there -- you cannot 17 set lot size based on septic, beyond the setbacks provided 18 by the state. But, from water availability, there is some 19 latitude given to the counties. 20 MR. SPEARS: I knew I read something on it. 21 I was thinking it was related to on-site sewer. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kerr County has an 23 additional authority. Because of being in a priority 24 groundwater management area, we have a little bit even 25 broader latitude than most counties, so I think 5 acres is 209 1 probably safe if you want to go that high. And, my 2 preference is probably a little bit smaller; probably go 3 3 1/2 acres. But I'm also -- 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Paul? 5 MR. SIEMERS: Paul Siemers. I think I agree 6 with the 5 acres. And it has to be -- there has to be some 7 flexibility in the plan; you allow for variances. I'd hate 8 to see any development where you could put in a 150-by-150 9 lot, a hundred or so of those, in any community. And out 10 where I am, a 5-acre lot is about the least you'd want to 11 put in, because of the terrain, and expect to have us be 12 able to put a septic and a well and not have them interfere 13 with each other. So, I think a minimum number lot size of 5 14 acres, with a possible variance if somebody came in and 15 showed you that their plat would allow such things to 16 happen; that if somebody came in and put 1,000 acres of 17 2 1/2 acre lots in and expected to put a septic and a well 18 on each one of those lots, I think you'd have a real problem 19 with water availability or anything else in trying to do 20 that. And that's the real problem, is setting a rule that's 21 applicable across the whole county, but I think there should 22 be a guideline that -- I hate variances and I hate 23 conditional use permits, but I think sometimes they're 24 necessary. And this may be one of those times that you have 25 to set a minimum, but allow certain variances, depending on 210 1 the terrain and the environment you're dealing with. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Any preference? 3 I'll put 5 in there. Then we can go down from there. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, okay. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Those are the main areas. 7 I apologize for not getting -- I mean, not getting another 8 copy out before I left to go out of town. I started reading 9 through it; it didn't make all the changes. I thought some 10 changes had been made that were not, one being the fee 11 structure; I thought that was given to Truby and updated. 12 But, I've got a -- you see I've marked up the version here 13 that we're going through. I will -- he's not here any 14 longer -- not here, wasn't here all day, but Danny Edwards 15 provided some very good comments. He looked through these 16 Subdivision Rules very thoroughly for the City of Ingram, 17 had some good comments back on verbiage-type things that 18 were very helpful to try to make them clear. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And some law, I think, 20 had changed. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Law. And this -- just 22 the last item I have, in the definitions section, I think it 23 really would be helpful to define -- try to define private 24 road, public road, and county road. That seems to be -- we 25 get -- almost every Commissioners Court tends to get 211 1 confusion on those. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: A county-maintained -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: County-maintained. And, 4 you know, if we can come up with a -- a simple definition to 5 include those, it might, you know, ease some of the 6 questions. One of his big comments were definitions and 7 making sure we're consistent throughout. Anyway, those are 8 the main comments I had. The -- the changes, again, are not 9 very -- are more wording and verbiage than anything else at 10 this point. And the other area is the next agenda item that 11 I have. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Anything else on this 13 agenda item, Item Number 16? If not, we'll go to Item 14 Number 17, which is consider and discuss the Manufactured 15 Home Rental Communities as related to Kerr County 16 Subdivision Rules and Regulations. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Related to this one, you 18 might go to -- it's Page 45 of the Subdivision Rules and 19 Regulations. It was in my last draft, anyway. Hopefully 20 it's still 45. What we're doing is going to incorporate -- 21 I made the order -- court order that we had before into the 22 actual Subdivision Rules, so it's handled in the same 23 document; won't be under any separate court order for 24 manufactured home rental communities. The area that we have 25 a little bit of, I guess, question, if you go to Page 47, 212 1 it's Minimum Infrastructure Standards. And -- well, Judge, 2 let me ask you a question first, because of the lawsuit over 3 these rules that's pending. I don't have a problem talking 4 about this in open court, but should we go to closed 5 session? The reason to make the changes that I'm 6 recommending are largely because of the lawsuit. But, it 7 doesn't make any difference; we can certainly go around them 8 in open session. I don't think it's going to divulge 9 anything about the lawsuit. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think it's -- we would have 11 to talk about changes in the open session; the only thing we 12 could discuss in closed session would be the actual lawsuit 13 itself. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. In that regard -- 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Or threatened lawsuit. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just wanted to make sure 17 of that before it gets inserted. Threatened lawsuit. In 18 that regard, I would recommend that for 803-A, which talks 19 about drainage, under that one, we just basically leave it 20 as it is, or just refer to Section 5.07, as it does. Under 21 roads -- let me skip B. Right now, under C, I would do the 22 same thing and refer to the section about on-site -- or 23 septic wastewater disposal, 'cause we're at -- we're 24 addressing that a lot more thoroughly in the current rules. 25 And I think the language in here, the State law, is included 213 1 in the other -- in that provision and in our Subdivision 2 Rules, so I think we can just handle that the same way as 3 803-A. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the same 803 -- 6 actually, excuse me. 803-C is water systems and 803-D is 7 wastewater, but it basically, in both of those, just refers 8 to our Subdivision Rules, which I think will, you know, make 9 it simpler. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Jonathan, just one 11 real quick thing here that occurred to me in reading through 12 some of this. Couldn't we really simplify it by saying up 13 front that these rules apply to the manufactured home -- 14 these Subdivision Rules apply to manufactured homes, with 15 the exception of any -- if we do have to have some 16 exceptions to that, have that this section could go to a 17 very small thing that just says different, because -- you 18 see what I'm saying? In other words, because that way, 19 we're really indicating that we're not putting anything on 20 manufactured homes that we don't put on everything else. 21 That we indicate that clearly, and we just say in the 22 preamble that these rules apply to manufactured homes as 23 well as anybody else. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm trying to do that, 25 but in talking to the Judge a little bit, you kind of have 214 1 to have a separate section for them. It's called a 2 development plan, not a plat, so you got to -- you kind of 3 have -- you have to have a section, anyway. And then you 4 can refer it all to 803-E, which talks about development 5 plan. Might be able to do the same thing there and just 6 duplicate the language for preliminary plat there, or just 7 refer to the preliminary plat section, call it a development 8 plan. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only -- the only one that 11 is different, or possibly needs to be different, from our 12 Subdivision Rules is streets and roads. And the reason that 13 that may be -- and I'll use the word "may" there -- need to 14 be different is it excludes it under the -- whatever the 15 House Bill is. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That gives us authority 18 that we can only provide ingress and egress for fire and 19 emergency vehicles under the -- it doesn't talk about road 20 maintenance, doesn't talk about drainage, doesn't talk about 21 anything else. So, if there's a question as to how much of 22 that -- and our current rules are much broader; we have a 23 60-foot easement. And, there's a question whether a 60-foot 24 easement is required for ingress and egress for emergency 25 vehicles, and that may be a point that would be litigated if 215 1 we leave it as it is in this and just refer to our 2 Subdivision Rules. And that's something that's a -- you 3 know, doesn't mean to say we have to change it, but it just 4 may be a point that gets us into litigation if we don't 5 change it. 6 But there's also -- on the flip side of that, 7 if we go straight to the width of the road, as Bexar County 8 has done, then you get -- I get into a problem, then -- 9 well, what if a tree is growing right next to the road and a 10 fire truck can't get through? Who gets rid of the tree? 11 We're supposed to allow for ingress and egress, but it's 12 private road. Say it's on a private road, you know. The 13 tree's there; we can't go and remove the tree, and you end 14 up in kind of a problem if the right-of-way isn't clear, if 15 you don't have a right-of-way area. So, that's an area that 16 I don't know what to do. I talked with the County Attorneys 17 a little bit. They like the Bexar County rules, but agree 18 that there's a problem if I don't have some right-of-way 19 beyond the shoulders of the road. So, that's kind of where 20 I'm stuck. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, we'll see you 22 next month. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Think some more, huh? 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Can we put in there 20-foot 25 easement and put in there a requirement that the owner must 216 1 maintain unimpeded access -- unimpeded passage along the 2 easement? 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: For fire and 4 emergency. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: For fire and emergency 6 purposes, which gets to the issue of the big tree with the 7 limb that keeps the fire truck from -- from getting in. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that would be -- 9 I mean, it would be my recommendation. That's the easiest 10 way, to me. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That would be easier 12 than trying to put in 60 feet in there, and then finding 13 more -- 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Spears? 15 MR. SPEARS: If I could make a comment there, 16 I agree that you've got to have egress and ingress on any of 17 these -- I own several manufactured home communities, and 18 I'm a manufactured home retailer. Believe me, if you can 19 get a 16-by-80 in there, you can get a fire truck in there. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess so. 21 MR. SPEARS: If you're going to -- you know, 22 if that is a concern, whoever owns this park is going to 23 make sure that they can get the homes in and out of those on 24 that ingress and egress, and they will be able to do that. 25 I mean, but if you need to put it in the law, certainly, you 217 1 can put something in there without putting the 60-foot 2 easement or whatever, not having a legal problem putting it 3 in that the owner must maintain this to where it can be 4 done. But, for anyone that owns a community, they've got to 5 get homes in or out or they won't have a community. And a 6 fire truck is certainly nowhere near the size of even the 7 smallest manufactured homes going in there. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Okay, we can 9 handle it that way and proceed. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Anything else? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 12 MR. SPEARS: I have one other question on 13 that. In this change, will it also take the inflammatory 14 language off the front page of this? 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's not in the Subdivision 16 Rules. 17 MR. SPEARS: No, it's not in the Subdivision 18 Rules, so it will not? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's already gone. 20 MR. SPEARS: All right, thank you. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Is there anything else 23 that we overlooked? If there's nothing else to come before 24 this Court, we stand adjourned. 25 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 5:05 p.m.) 218 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 21st day of June, 2000. 8 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25