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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Special Session
Tuesday, May 28, 2002
2.:00 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas

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PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 9
ABSENT: H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1

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z
I N D E X
May 28, 2002
PAGE
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51
1.1 Consider and discuss options and plans for
renovation, repair, restoration, and/or
expansion of the Hill Country Youth Exhibit
Center
--- Court recessed
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On Tuesday, May 28, 2002, at 2:00 p.m., a special meeting o
the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville,
Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll go ahead and call to
order tkiis special meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners
Court. It's 2 o'clock p.m. on Tuesday, May 28th. The topic
for discussion and consideration this afternoon is consider
and discuss options and plans for renovation, repair,
restoration, grid/or expansion of the Hill Country Youth
is for basically Commissioners to have some focus and
at-length discussions about where we want to go with this
facility, and hopefully to come to some decisions, which we
can then put out for public comment. I've actually
scheduled this meeting and placed it on the agenda at the
request principally of Commissioner Letz, as well as
Commissioner Williams, so we'll allow Commissioner Letz to
kick it off.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. Anybody --
if you take those two handouts, and people -- hand them out,
let people have a little bit of an idea, 'cause we're
talking about numbers and things. That way they can get an
idea of what we're talking about. They've got them, Thea.

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Ttiat row's got -- I gave them to Bob. As soon as she hands
those out, we'll try to kick this off.
(Discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. Let me get
started and kind of explain a little bit as to the strange
methodology I used to get to these handouts. And, at the
same time -- well, I'll just be explaining a few minutes.
We've spent a great deal of money and a great deal of
manpower, from County personnel and elsewhere, to come up
with all kinds of cost estimates in the past two years,
and -- and Commissioner Williams and I spent a lot of time
meeting with the Stock Show Association trying to make sure
whatever we do meets their needs. So, I took those two
elements, and first thing I did, I figured out, from talking
with Stock Shuw Association and Bob Dittmar most recently,
as to exactly what square footage they needed to continue
and to expand ,uoderately in the near future, as everyone
thinks they probably will need to. And when you do that,
you come up with -- their requirements are 114,500 square
feet, and that includes an exhibit hall, but that's
something that they need, because they need some kind of a
venue for fundraising and other events like that. So, you
know, out of that 119,000, 13,000 of that is the current old
exhibit hall, and the 102,000 or 103,000 is the rest of the
barn space. And that includes -- this is from talking with
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Bob most recently, that if we were to take the old -- the
horse barn area and make that usable and totally improved,
that area's about 18,000 square feet. If you could do that,
that would meet their needs; that, along with the current
arena, the current hog barn area. So, that was kind of the
base thing. In my opinion, anything we do out there has to
have basically a minimum of 115,000 square feet, and that's
dust to meet stock show's needs.
Next up, I looked at a lot of different
proposals that we have received from Glenn Holekamp and Mike
Smart. They went out to a lot of local contractors and came
up with some real good numbers in areas as to construction
costs, renovation costs. We got bids from electric
contractors, air-conditioning contractors, metal building
contractors, as to what a lot of the components would be,
and we also had a lot of new construction costs from Quorum
and Associates -- or Quorum Architects. They gave us some
numbers. So, I kind of -- on the first page, those that
have the page, I kind of broke it down into barn areas,
exhibit hall areas, arena areas, and other.
If you look at the -- the barn areas, it kind
of comes through -- the first set of numbers is if you
renovate the barn area, the huy barn front and back, and put
it -- you end up with an area of 26,000 square feet that it
currently is. The height would be a little bit in question,
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because the ceilings are very low. Roofing, skylights,
electrical, ventilation, putting the concrete floor back
Ltie re and removing the pens and dirt removal, and then other
repairs, painting, windows, miscellaneous, comes up to a
total renovation cost of the barn, not counting the exhibit
hall, of $214,000. That's a -- I think is as good a number
as we can get. I don't think it's a great number. And the
problem is, there's a lot of things out there that, once you
get into diiy kind of a renovation, you just don't know what
you're going to get into. Trying to figure out how to put a
concrete floor in that old barn is not easy. Glenn got some
new concrete costs that were totally unrealistic -- on the
low side, from everyone I talked to -- so we went back with
some older numbers that we received from Freed and Barker.
Ind they estimated about $l0U,U00 to remove the pens, remove
some of the dirt, and then to put a concrete floor back
there. That is within the ballpark, I'd say. I don't think
it's high -- certainly isn't on the high side; could be a
little bit low, even. Bob?
MR. DITTMAR: Does that address anything as
far as the height of the ceiling back there?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It doesn't address the
height of the ceiling. What this envisions is you take out
the pens that are there and you dig down. You have to put
some sort of drainage system a little bit to get some sort
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of height in there. All of the work -- and every bit of
that's going to have to be hauled out of there on bobcats.
Bobcats have very small buckets; you're talking about a
third of a yard. We're talking about a lot of dirt that
would have to get out of there just to get -- we're not
really -- we're just trying to make it so it's usable.
You've got to dig it down, get a stable base to pour any
concrete back there. So, anyway, that's just a basic
renovation of the barn area, $219,000.
To replace that barn with a little bit larger
structure, or pretty close to it, just build a new -- you
know, tear that one down and build a new barn of
30,000 square feet, is $316,000. So -- and that's including
tear-down and getting rid of all the stuff there. So, you
can -- for $100,000 more, you can end up with a brand new
facility with 14-foot ceilings, but it would be the exact
same square footage. If you go -- and this came from a
local contractor, Dynamite, who does a lot of building -- I
think Dynamite Incorporated or Dynamite Buildings, whatever
the formal name is, but they do a lot of buildings, this
type of metal frame buildings. The next number is to build
a new barn. This is using a larger barn, 37,000 square
feet, with a little bit nicer -- and this is a proposed
number that came out of Quorum Architects. It was $554,000.
So, it just kind of gives you a range. You are getting
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7,000 square feet more; it does cost more.
Next on the list is to move and enclose the
horse barn. Horse barn is 18,000 square feet, and we never
had even thought of moving it; didn't even have -- I don't
even know if it was feasible, but the Dynamite contractor
said it could be done, and it would cost less than a new
building. Anyway, you could cut that building and take it
apart, cut it down, and then build a new concrete slab and
use that, basically frame above it, $185,000. And then
another option, you could build a -- a real large new barn,
44,000 square feet, at about $12.50 a foot, is the price
from Dynamite. That would be $550,000. So, it gives a lot
of options on barn costs. And, you know, you can vary a
little bit. I don't think you want to err on the small
side. You don't want to build something -- I mean, 26,000
or 30,000, if you're going to build something new, is the
minimum I think you'd want to go with. If you go to the
high side or the large side, about 99,000 square feet.
The last couple of numbers on there, if you
renovate the horse barn -- and this is a -- kind of the
lead. If you were to leave the horse barn where it is, but
make it usable, it comes up to a cost of about $100,000.
And what that does, it puts a canvas siding on it. And I
believe Gillespie County has one of their barns similar to
this siding canvas. It puts electrical out there, upgrades
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electrical a little bit. There is actually electrical
there, but this upgrades electrical, puts a covered walkway,
the concrete to the arena, add plumbing, and add a concrete
floor. These are a little bit iffy numbers, but probably
reasonable, but if you're going to use it, you've got to
make it so there's restrooms throughout, or somewhere in
that area. And, anyway, so that's $103,000. And that's
kind of a summary of all the barn components.
Next, I looked at the exhibit hall, went
through basically the same type of exercise, looked at
renovating what is currently there. Most of these
numbers -- or all these numbers came from work that Mike
Smart and Glenn Holekamp put together. Put a new roof on
it, new A/C and heat, paint it, very minor refurbish of
bleachers, electrical, and then enclose and enlarge the
concession area, basically where the hog racks are in
between the two -- the hog barn and the arena. There's an
area there used for washing animals. You could move the
wash racks back towards the river, that direction, and cover
more of that area and make a larger concession stand.
That's about $43,000 to do that. Upgrade doors, $6,000.
And I put other repairs of $50,000, because there's -- when
I started looking at the list of what I've added or
included, there's a lot of things that I haven't included,
and you get into A.D.A. right there, and that's a big deal.
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We just found out how picky A.D.A. can be on the next-door
renovation; everything from sink heights to -- I mean, it's
pretty detailed. So, any kind of renovation that we
undertake out there, we're going to have to comply with
A.D.A. So, we put -- I put in a $50,000 kind of contingency
for other repairs out there, and that gives a renovation
cost of the current exhibit hall of $218,000, and that's
13,000 square feet.
If you build a new exhibit hall,
13,000 square feet -- well, let me go skip that one for a
second. Quorum Architects gave us a price of a
27,000-square-foot exhibit hall with, you know, kitchen
area, breakout rooms, you know, pretty nice facility.
Nothing extravagant, but it would meet a lot of our needs,
and the cost of that 27,000 square foot building was
$654,000. From talking with them and other contractors, on
that size building, you can pretty much pro rata the square
footage cost back down, and if you were to build a
13,000-square-foot building, it's going to be about
$327,000. So, if you -- just to build a new building that
is the exact size of the current exhibit hall is $327,000.
To basically double that size is $654,000. And to renovate
what we currently have is about $218,000.
In the existing arena, there are a number of
things that need to be done: Electrical, ventilation,
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painting, insulation, and then just some miscellaneous
items. And also, if we were not to add enough barn sp
shed area on the east side, and if you did the shed area
expansion, it's about $79,000. The storage area expansion
would be about $45,000. But if you did all that renovation
out there, it's about $199,000 for that facility, and about
$110,000 of that, $115,000 of that $199,000 is additional
space, storage and shed area. Other improvements, parking.
We've discussed paving the larger part of the polo field.
That's -- that will cost $350,000. Resurface existing
parking lot is $30,000. Striping existing parking lot,
another almost $5,000. Striping the polo field, if we were
to pave that, about $10,000. So, that's another $394,000
there.
Outdoor lighting in existing parking area is
$17,600, and polo field outdoor lighting is $27,000, so it
depends on how far you do the paving as to how much that
cost is, but if you do the whole amount, it would be $44,600
for lighting. A new PA system throughout, and I figured
this is going to be -- it's $35,588, which is a pretty good
-- it's a good system that works, which is something we
don't have right now, and I think you would have that cost
pretty much no matter what option you pick; you're still
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going to need a PA system. Signage. This is for a sign
along the highway. I put $30,000 in here. Bill and I
talked a few minutes ago. Actually, the last proposal we
received for a lighted sign was $50,000, but that's
something else that we just have to have to look at exactly
what that's going to be.
Portable pens. I figured, you know, any
option -- any proposal, we're going to have to get portable
pens to replace what we're losing in the hog barn; probably
buy some additional ones. I figured 400 pens at $200
apiece, which is a quote we've recently received. That's
$80,000 there. And if we were to buy additional horse
stalls, 200 horse stalls, that's $900 each. I think we can
probably get them for about $700, but still, that's
$180,000, about. There's some fencing that's going to be
needed to be done out there; I put $20,000 for that.
Additional restrooms, office space, concession equipment,
site work, and then just miscellaneous kind of contingency,
other. Exactly how much of each of those depends on what
option you end up doing, what you build new and what you
renovate.
Some general comments. New construction,
while it costs more probably going in, there's a couple of
pluses to that. One is that you know what you're -- you're
much more likely to have an accurate proposal price going
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in. On the renovation of the hog barn or the exhibit hall,
exactly what it's going to cost. And then what you're going
to get, if you end up building, is a whole lot better than
what you have. Certainly, it can be nicer. But -- so I
have some real questions on whether you should do new
construction versus renovation, and these questions really
came up after I went through this exercise and realized that
the new construction is not a whole lot more -- about
30 percent more to build new versus renovation.
Last page, I just put together kind of three
options to put it all together. Option 1 is a basically
pure renovation option. It's renovating the hog barns,
leaving the horse barn where it is, but renovating it,
renovating the exhibit hall, adding the shed area, the
storage area, and renovating the arena, and then adding
parking, lighting, P.A., pens, and the other items. And you
come up with, for the renovation option, $1,679,512.
Option 2 is a combination of new construction
and renovation. If you were to tear down the -- the hog
barn and the exhibit hall and build a new facility in the
exact same location, the exact same size, you would get the
square footage that you need to meet the stock show needs.
If you were to move the horse barn so it would be right next
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to it, and then extend and renovate and extend the arena as
leave the horse barn where it is. You do renovate it, but
you leave it off in that area. And then you build a new
exhibit hall -- well, the new barn's 99,000 square feet.
New exhibit hall is 27,000 square feet. And then you do the
same parking, lighting, PA, pens option, and that option
comes to $2,211,000.
I very intentionally left the parking,
lighting, PA, pens, and the other -- signage, all that, the
enact same in all the proposals, 'cause I think if you're
going to change it in one, you have to look at changing it
in all of them, because that's a -- you know, I don't --
personally don't think we probably need to pave the entire
polo field. I -- certainly, we need to add more parking,
but you could probably, you know, adjust that a little bit.
But I think it would be -- I really wanted to come up with a
proposal that we could look at renovation versus new
construction. That's what I was trying to come up with, and
hopefully that's something we can at least start from. Last
thing, before I open it up -- well, does anyone have any
s-aa-oz esrec
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questions, from the Court or in the audience? The Court
first, probably.
JUDGE HENNEKE: You have the 3B -- I mean, is
that just -- are you assuming that that cost is the same as
the Option 3?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. It's a little bit
higher, probably, but it's a --
JUDGE HENNEKE: It might be a little less.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we can go ahead and
go through the drawings. Hopefully there's enough copies.
The first page, this is a -- I kind of traced from the plat
that Maintenance has out at the -- at their office, and then
some of the plans they got from Quorum, and I guess kind of
hand-drew some footprints. First page is -- it says
"Current" on it. That basically is what we have right --
well, it's what we have right now. The scale is about
three-quarters of an inch equals 100 feet, so it's
proportionate. All the building sizes is proportional, but
I'm not going to say it's real, real close. I mean, it may
show as 75 feet and it may be 80 feet.
Option 1 is basically the renovation option,
and if you do that, you really don't change the footprint
much, but you do add the extended shed storage area and you
add the walkway. Option 2, you build a new exhibit hall,
new barn, move the horse barn, and still have to add to get
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the square footage, or some of the additional needs --
square footage needs we need, extend the shed area. And
then Option 3 is to build a new larger barn, a new larger
exhibit hall, leave the horse barn where it is, and there's
a 3A and a 3B for that. And I just -- I did that kind of to
get a thought process going as to the exhibit hall -- if you
went with that proposal, the exhibit hall does not have to
be attached to the hog barn, or the barns and the arenas.
Bill and I talked a little bit before we came
in here and, you know, it kind of was a -- there's really a
3C, which would be to have it a stand-alone building, maybe
25 feet, 50 feet from the arena. Put it over close to the
arena. You'd have a walkway, but you'd have air handling
and all that. It would be far enough removed, you wouldn't
have the smell of the livestock in the exhibit hall, but you
could still walk back and forth through a causeway --
hallway. I don't think -- the cost is not going to be
dramatically different, whether you put it right up next to
it or make it stand alone. Probably a little bit cheaper
possibly to put it stand-alone.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me make a few
comments about it. I want to commend Commissioner Letz for
putting together this worksheet. The last time he and I met
together, we spent about two hours going through all the
material that we had available from both Lhe architect and
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from -- from the staff and gleaning these estimates of cost,
kind of a summary sheet. I'm going to pass it out. It's
not intended to be in the form of a criticism of anybody's
efforts. It's just a form to -- to detail some issues that
may or may not be included. Some of them were included in
Commissioner Letz' document, and particularly his comment
when we talked about new construction eliminates some of the
issues that would have been there under rehabilitation. So,
what I've done in this exercise is merely here, one, for the
two members of the press, if they want it. It's just to
highlight some issues so we get everything that we can
possibly think of on the table and open for discussion.
The cost of resurfacing existing parking is
contained in Commissioner Letz' document, but it wasn't in
the staff document. The cost to remove the pens and
contaminated soil is underestimated, but it has been
reestimated in Commissioner Letz' document, so we have a
better number there. The cost of removing the firing range
from the existing exhibit hall, it we were to rehabilitate
that, was not contained in the documents. The cost to make
the bleachers in the existing exhibit hall in the arena
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A.D.A. compliant was not addressed in either document, but
needs to be. It was uncertain as to the cost to equip a
concession stand and/or a concessionaire's type kitchen,
which would serve the needs of an exhibit hall, either
renovated or new, so I've listed that. The cost to improve
curb appeal in front of the buildings so that you have a
good-looking elevation out front, perhaps provide -- take
into consideration people flow, moving from this and that
and the other thing, and ticket sales and all that kind of
stuff was not addressed, but perhaps needs to be.
Cost of electronic signage, Commissioner Letz
has it in his. I think it's a little bit underestimated,
but that nonetheless needs to be talked about. The cost of
additional restrooms and dressing rooms needs to be
addressed in various facilities outside of the arena. If we
have a -- and the exhibit hall. If we have a new barn, we
need restroom facilities. I'm always hearing the need for
dressing rooms, but I've not seen it except in the Quorum --
the Quorum document, so that needs to be incorporated, and
could very well be in Commissioner Letz' document, because
he's got some room in there for things that are undefined.
The cost to insulate the existing arena has been touched
upon. I think if we were to do -- to renovate the exhibit
hall and the -- there are two barn areas behind the exhibit
hall. The cost of it for reroofing all of that probably is
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underestimated, and needs to be taken into consideration.
So, just some of the things that need to be
important; some or all of them may not be important, but I
just throw it into the mix. I think, as we go through all
of this in our discussion, I would like to make a point that
under -- on Page 1 of Commissioner Letz' document, where he
lists the stock show's square footage requirements, I think
it should be a goal of ours that the stock show's
requirements -- square footage requirements are not only
adequately taken care of today, but they are adequately
taken care of for 5 to 10 years in the future, which gives
the stock show an opportunity to grow as it sees fit to
grow. And if it doesn't grow, it doesn't grow, but I have
every reason to believe that it would, and I would like to
see that -- that the exhibit hall, 13,000 square foot stuck
show requirements, are incorporated into the square footage.
That would be a new barn to replace the existing exhibit
hall and the pens, take care of all their needs in that
facility and the existing arena, and the extensions of the
existing arena, as are in Commissioner Letz' diagram. So, I
would remove it from that area and place it into tYie new
barn square footage, and it very well may wash out that way.
Another comment or two has to do with the
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exhibit hall itself. I really believe that we need to -- in
a new configuration of facilities, we need to separate
animals from people, and animal activity should be contained
in the arena and in the new barn, and an adequate square
footage to take care of all of those needs. And people
activities, even including the people activities of the
stock show, fundraising and other things they do, and all of
the other things the community has a need to do, should be
contained in a new exhibit hall separated from the
agriculture component. I think there's great value in doing
that, and I think it makes it easier for maintenance, makes
it easier for bookings, it makes it easier for utilization,
makes it easier to clean up. I think that's a preferred
approach, as far as I'm concerned. So, those are the
comments I wanted to make going in. Let's see where all
this takes us.
		JUDGE HENNEKE: Larry?	
		COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, nothing	to add
to that	. I do	want to compliment particularly Jona	than on a
lot of	work.	Well done, and it does lay out -- it	lays out
a very	minimal	option that I think would surprise s	ome
people	in the	fact that it's not cheap, even at the	very
minimum	. And	I think we've got plenty to work with	here,
and I'd	be int	erested in hearing everybody's commen	ts on it.
		JUDGE HENNEKE: I'd like to kind of	focus the
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discussion between the four of us on the renovation versus
the new option, because that's really the difference. In my
opinion, the dollars we're talking about are such that this
is not something that can easily be done in a self-help
method. If we make this a pay-as-you-go, it will be 15
years before we do even the cheapest of them, So I think,
in my mind, the costs are not -- are not large enough of a
difference to make a difference in the financing, which is
where 1 would be concerned, as the budget ofticer. So, I
would like, you know, to try to focus, if it's okay with
Jonathan, as kind of the ringleader, on the renovation
versus the new. And it's really not renovation versus new,
because both of them are a mixture.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE HENNEKE: One of the -- one of the
proposals is basically a total renovation, but the other
three proposals are a good mixture of renovation and new,
because it preserves the main asset of the complex, which is
the arena, and it adds onto the arena components which
enhance the arena and make the whole complex workable from
the point of view of the stock show, and also from the p~irit
of view of what the community uses the facility for. You
know, we're talking about a difference between basically one
million seven and two million two between the two options,
so we're talking about half a million dollars difference in
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total cost. But the big renovation option, option number 3,
you know, increases the size of the -- the barn from 26,000
to 44,000. I guess the arena stays at 60,000 square feet,
even though it says 45,000?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the arena's
actually 45,000 currently, and if you go with the big barn,
you don't do the shed expansion on the side of the axecia,
which adds that square footage.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I think that when you kiave an
opportunity to -- to do new construction as opposed to
renovating existing construction that has faithfully served
us, but has outlived its usefulness, if it's cost-effective
to do so, you should do so. I mean, like Bill points out, I
mean, we need to take the firing range out of the existing
exhibit hall, If we -- I'm sure we don't report that cn our
insurance, but if we're going to continue to use that, the
bleachers have to have -- I think they need -- if we start
on any sort of renovation out there, we're going to be hit
with a total A.D.A. compliance package, Acid, like Jonathan
said, we just found out that that's not easy, since the
renovation we've been working on for three years over here
just got dinged for A.D.A. compliance. So, it's not going
be to be easy to retrofit that buildiny, vx any of the
buildings, or the large public faci]ity for A.D.A. I'm
obviously inclined to go with -- with fie mixture of the
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renovation and the new construction.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just following up on
your comments, Judge, about -- about A.D.A., for example --
and it's included in -- the solution is included in
Commissioner Letz' summary, but, for example, if we were to
merely renovate the existing exhibit hall and area in
between and the arena, A.D.A. requirements would -- would
cause us to have to put in a lift to get to the upstairs
offices that the stock show uses now. Putting in a lift in
that kind of facility is going to be a costly exercise to be
A.D.A. compliant so that you can continue to use the office
space. The alternate -- I see Glenn agreeing that that's
true, has to happen. And the opposite or the alternative to
that is to provide new, good office space on ground level in
another facility and eliminate that -- the need to do that,
or just shut that off, cut that cost down.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with that, but
the lift is not included.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know it's not.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A general comment I want
to make, since we have a pretty good crowd here today, which
is good to see, is that one of the reasons -- and I think
Ernie and -- well, everyone from the Stock Show Association
who's here can vouch for this; that that facility was
basically built with a lot of hard work and volunteer time
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and a lot of donated materials. And it's actually
phenomenal that they were able to, you know, do what they
did. And they were very fortunate in the community, very
fortunate to have some large donors come in and some
associations that r_ame in and helped, you know, pay off a
note that all these individuals in the audience -- in the
audience went out, signed personal notes to qet that
construction done. But one of the problems that we've
realized, after the County took it over and started looking
at it, is that it wasn't done to any kind of a standard of
construction, I mean, as I talk to Bill Taylor at xYUB, he
said, "Yeah, most of the electrical work was done with
pieces found from job sites," and things of that nature.
And it was all put together, and it works. But we've added
electrical, we've done things.
The electrical alone, it has got to be
redone. It's -- anyone who works out there a lot
understands that you hold your breath during a big event
that we don't blow fuses and someone doesn't get
electrocuted, because there are -- it's just not all --
we're overloading the current circuits. The wiring was not
done to -- large enough to be able to expand properly. And
I think -- I mean, it's pretty much -- it was done because a
lot of volunteers spent a lot of their personal time and
personal equipment and donated materials to get it done, end
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it just needs to be upgraded to meet -- if we're going to
have the public use that facility, we've got to, you know,
make it safe. And the electrical side is one thing that I
think is probably the easiest to illustrate where we have
some problems on it out there right now, and that's why -- I
mean, the costs in here for renovation, they're not
fictitious at all. They are very conservative, if anything.
I ran a question by the painting contractors
that I know in this town; they're going to paint that
building for $13,000. You know, that's the bid. I used the
number in here, but I don't see it. I mean, I know what
these construction prices are in this community, and the --
regionally, and it's just -- these are very -- i think we
got very low bids. And even using low bids, you come up
with a renovation of that facility of $218,000. so, when we
know that we can pretty safely build a new building for
$330,000, it's hard for me to justify -- that's the same
size facility, but it's hard for me to say we should
renovate. The arena, certainly; that's a good facility.
The hog barn -- to me, the hog barn -- the horse barn,
that's able to be renovated and used. Nut, to me, I think
that we're really wasting taxpayers' money if we do a major
renovation of the current exhibit hall and current hog
barns. I think it makes much more sense to tear them down
and build a big barn. Now, that's what the stock show
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needs; they need a barn that can be used for all other kind
of events. And then build a -- an exhibit hall of sorts.
And "exhibit hall" is probably not a good word, 'cause it's
really not an exhibit hall.
JODGE HENNEKE: All-purpose facility.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's just an indoor
facility that you can have, you know, banquets, meals, used
by stock show for their events and used by others in the
community. There is a need for that. The exhibit hall
component in here, the -- if you go with a new facility,
they include a lot of the extra restrooms and kitchen
equipment, all that type of equipment.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Dressing rooms.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Dressing rooms. It's
kind of built into those costs, but it's not built into the
renovation costs. So, they're actually -- renovation costs
are probably a little bit conservative. And I say that
because I used -- on the new, I used Quorum's numbers, and
they had all those numbers built-in.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just, you know, took it
straight off their sheet.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Left unsaid at this
point, and I think it needs to be said, is that this plan
sets aside for a later date, at a later time, the thought of
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constructing a new multi-purpose arena. That was a
big-ticket item, $2.5 to $3 million for an arena of that
size and spaciousness that would seat the numbers that were
proposed. So, we're -- like I said, we've cut that
component out; we'll set it aside for another day, another
time, another place, and deal with what we have and what we
know that we can realistically do to make it a good -- good
Class A facility for Kerr County. And that's where it's at.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me add just one
thing to what I said earlier. And I agree with the comments
of all three of you on the advisability of renovation versus
new construction and so on. And it all has to do with the
funding mechanism, back to the Judge's point. Obviously,
you cannot take this out of the coffee fund or anything;
it's too big a dollar item. So, we'd have to have some kind
of funding mechanism, whether that's a bond issue or
whatever it may turn out to be. But when you look at 30
percent -- 25 to 30 percent difference between the highest
costs and the lowest costs, I really think that you've got
to look at new -- a mixture of new and renovation, rather
than just renovating what's there. I also think -- and you
can say this for the record -- I say this for the record.
You could probably take all three of those numbers and jack
them up some, 'cause that's just the way it is in the hill
country. I mean, it's hard to bring anything in with the
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original estimate. Sut, seriously, I really think that --
that for that difference, if that is -- if that's a good
difference -- difference in cost, as reflected in the
estimates, that just renovating what's there doesn't make a
whole lot of sense because of the A.D.A. stuff and the
electrical stuff, the plumbing stuff. It's like my old
house; every time I tear into it, I find something that was
wrong that I didn't know was wrong. So, I know we'd have
the same thing happening in this barn that's out there now.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other thing that
-- you know, and I mentioned it, but let me say it again.
And I don't know if the best approach is to figure out
exactly what we want and then figure out how to pay for it,
or figure out what we can afford and then figure out what we
can add in. Depends on which approach you take. You know,
there is, in this number -- in all these numbers, a lot of
-- $394,000 for parking. $350,000 of that is -- yeah,
$350,000 of that is the polo field, so if you cut this space
in half, you could easily -- you can knock off $175,000 real
quick off the polo field parking. Which is -- you know, or
even more possibly there. And when you do that, you cut out
the lights also, so I think you can easily trim about
$200,000 off all these proposals.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I'd like to preserve some of
the polo field for people to exercise their horses. You
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know, we're starting to see, you know, a lot of team roping
out there. It's become popular for Rusty Henderson -- they
just had a really successful team roping weekend out there.
How much money did you win, Brad? Are you still here?
without taking some chances with them. You need some
exercise facilities. So, I'd like to see -- I'd like to see
us not pave the whole polo -- polo field, polocrosse field,
which is -- I'm in support of what you're saying.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other thing is --
and I don't want to pick on the mayor; I see him sitting in
the back row tryinq to hide back there. But I think that
the exhibit hall is something that I intend -- or I would
intend, if the Court agrees with me, to come to the City and
E.I.C. again to participate in. I think the City has made
it pretty clear that they don't want to be a partner in the
ag facility portion of that, and I -- that's fine. That's
probably easier for it to stay county. But an exhibit hall,
to get to the 27,000 square foot that's in the final
proposal is building a facility that is going to benefit the
city of Kerrville and the community a great deal. And, you
know, I certainly would like to get some support from the
City or from the E.I.C. Which I know y'all don't control
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E.I.C. directly, but -- and I think that if -- you know, I'm
not asking for any response now, but I just -- I feel that
the City should participate in that part of the facility if
they can, or at least E.I.C. And I use the -- kind of
the -- almost use them together, 'cause it is a -- the
exhibit hall gets into the economic development-type area a
little bit more, and that's what E.I.C. is set up to do.
And -- and the configuration that it sounds like we're kind
of leaning towards isolates that building a little bit, at
least makes it so it can be used without something like the
hog barn, which I think has been one of the -- one of the
concerns I've heard.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I promised -- I'm
sorry, Jon. Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I promised the mayor
that if he would take time out of his schedule to be here,
that we wouldn't put him on the spot, but I did emphasize
that our thoughts regarding an exhibit hall with adequate
size and -- and configuration to meet the needs of the
entire community, separated from the agricultural component,
would indeed serve the city of Kerrville well, given that a
lot of the venues have closed. Most recent one, you may or
may not know, is the Knights of Columbus Hall sold very
recently to a granite countertop manufacturer, and after
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July 1, all contracts for the use of that facility have been
declared null and void. I believe, Sudie, you told me that
that facility is booked something like 150 days a year? Is
that correct?
MS. BURDITT: Something -- yes, something
like that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Something in that
range. Which means that 150 event days, whatever they are,
for whomever they are, are going to have to try to reload,
if they stay here. If they can't stay here after July 1
because of inability to relocate, and the only other option
would be Hill Country District Junior Livestock show
facility -- our facility out there, then that -- that
business and those events will leave town and they'll go
somewhere else, and those folks who work on that all the
time will have to figure out a way to coax them back another
day. So, these are all things that come into the mix. I
agree with Jonathan; he and I have taken this dog and pony
show around town a good bit, and we'll take it around again
if we have to, and we'll see you at City Hall somewhere.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm wearing out. But I
think -- I mean, I really think that -- you know, my final
comment on this is, to me, I think all the work that we've
done is not wasted. I think we have a master plan out there
that the facility could become -- I think, as Bill said
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earlier, the arena -- new arena could be built down the
road. I think we need to, you know, kind of plan for a --
we needed a master plan for this portion of that property,
and I think we have that. And I think this fits into that a
little bit. I think this is a, you know, first --
originally, we talked about two phases to get everything
built, and now we're looking at three or four phases, which
is fine. The first phase is the most apparent. I think the
Court needs to address it immediately, needs to get it
going. We've been talking about it for two years. I think
that the -- you know, my view is that the -- the
27,000 square foot exhibit hall will be great, but I don't
think the County -- that's something that I would downsize
if we can't get City or E.I.C. participation. I'm not
asking them to pay for all of it, but to get a bigger
facility, it would help me to get to that point.
Personally, I think we need a 44,000 square foot barn. I
think we need -- it is better for all uses, the stock show
and everything -- everybody else that may use that facility,
to have one big barn.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the cost of that
is -- you know, is more -- you know, you can downsize it a
little bit. It's just a function of square footage, you
know. Lut i think that is the best use, and I think we need
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an exhibit hall the same size or larger, depending on how
much it's going to cost, the participation we're going to
get from others in the community. That's kind of --
JUDGE HENNEKE: I'd like to see our exhibit
hall coming in somewhere around 20,000 square foot. Let the
exhibit hall come in somewhere around 20,000 square feet; 27
may be a bit big. I think 13 -- you know, it's hard to put
the -- the Junior District Livestock Show fundraiser on in
13. I mean, the way it is now, we've got to go out -- go
out through the arena and come in through the concession
stand in order to get our food. So, I mean, why perpetuate
that same situation?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
JUDGE HENNEKE: So, I'd like to see a minimum
actually will -- will take this around to every foundation
in the hill country for consideration to try to reduce the
cost to the -- to the taxpayers here in Kerr County. I
think our foundations have always been very generous in
helping with -- with items that they perceive to be in the
greater community interest, and I have no doubt but that
we'll get a level of participation from local foundations.
I have no idea what level it would be, but they've always
been significant donors to things that made a sizable
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contribution to the greater community. So, I -- you know,
I'm fairly confident that the whole -- whole burden will not
fall directly upon -- upon the taxpayers, either through the
funding mechanisms, like a tax anticipation note or bond
issue or something, through additional allocation resources
to this facility.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're at a point
that, I mean, we need to get something decided. And if we
can get some -- if I can get some direction from the Court,
I'll be glad to put together, you know, for our next agenda,
I guess, a more specific -- one plan with square footage
elements, whether it's new or renovation. And if we want
to, you know, start on the Option 3 that I had, you know, if
we agree on a -- on a pretty close barn square footage,
exhibit hall square footage, whether or not to renovate the
horse barn, you know, what amount of parking to do, things
of that nature, then I can put together a proposal and we
can at least have a plan to approve, hopefully at our next
meeting. And that plan would then be really to figure out
then how to finance it. I mean, to me, if we come up
with -- first step would be to come up with a plan the Court
can agree on, hopefully unanimously, and then figure out,
you know, how to finance it. My personal view is, like I've
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entities to participate, whether it be foundations, city,
E.I.C., whatever, the lower -- the smaller the amount, then
the more comfortable I am using certificates of obligation.
So, it's just going to kind of depend on where we are on
that. If you use a C.O., it's real hard to do that without
a tax increase.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Really?
(Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the reality is, you
know, it's -- a lot of people, even those that are pretty
big proponents and like what I've shown them, think it would
be very hard to pass a bond issue in this community right
now, which may be true, but I don't have any problem with
going the bond issue route. The effect on the tax rate is
very small. Bill's run these numbers more than I have, but,
I mean, it really is -- is a cent or two.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A cent and change.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: About a little over 1
cent in tax probably to finance this through the bond --
bond issue. But -- we need to address that, but the first
step, to me, is to come up with a plan that the Court's
happy with and the community is happy with, and then figure
out how to pay Tor that plan.
JODGE HENNEKE: Well, I don't make motions,
but if I did make motions, I would be in favor of Option 3B.
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The reason I like B is because it -- it maintains the
flexibility of constructing the second multi-purpose arena,
if we want to, by separating the exhibit hall from the
existing arena.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Also probably reduce
the cost a little bit.
DODGE HENNEKE: I would bring the exhibit
hall in at 20,000 square feet, leave the new barn at
44,000 -- leave everything on there, except change the --
the new exhibit hall from 27 to 20. And, again, that would
be the cost that the County alone would be willing to
absorb. And I would prefer paving probably the southernmost
two-thirds -- the northern -- southernmost two-thirds of the
polocrosse field, leave the -- leave the riverside third in
grass -- northern third, yeah. The third towards the river,
down here by the horse barn.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we pave the northern
two-thirds?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Whatever.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You'd be paving in
between the exhibit hall and the arena?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. And then --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And leave grassy area
behind --
DODGE HENNEKE: Leave the grass area down in
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here, which would correlate to where the horse barn is,
which is the most likely place where you're going to put
horses.
MR. DITTMAR: On it, the access back from
here is really important to us.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bob, can you identify
yourself for the court reporter, please?
MR. DITTMAR: I'm Bob Dittmar. Just on those
sort of subjects like that, I'd really like to see it remain
real flexible. Our access to the -- for the stock show is
over through that polo field, and the road actually runs
through the back yard, and we have a hard time getting in
and out of there. Making that -- having paved access right
back there would be real important to us, and I think a lot
of other people, I think, would appreciate what you're
saying. And I think that's -- we don't need the whole polo
field paved, but --
JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, let me just say it's
paved two-thirds, the polo field, without saying where the
grass would be and where the -- you know --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We don't have to
address the ingress and egress of this whole proposition.
You know, what do we do coming off of 27? Do we only come
in off of 27? Do we -- and do we exit off -- onto Riverside
Drive? These issues have to be addressed, and they're not
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on the table for that today. But --
MR. DITTMAR: I understand.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- what you're
talking about comes under that scenario.
MR. DITTMAR: I'd just like to say, be
flexible. And the other thing, if this is a good time, I
just -- a quick comment on meeting our needs. And I
appreciate y'all sitting here and talking about the needs of
the stock show first and foremost, and it's important. But,
by the same token, I'm a citizen of Kerr County. I think
the needs of Kerr County are important, too. And I can't
tell you that I -- I think most people understand how much
goes on out there and how much it's used, and it's not just
the stock show. But, you talking about the stock show, we
have to guess a lot. Making those numbers of how much space
we need, I mean, gosh, there's no way of knowing. We just
took some -- some ideas and said, yeah, if we had that much
more space, that would sure be helpful.
We -- our show has shown growth for the past
several years. We've instituted some new things that are
going to allow for more growth; we've started some
scholarship programs in our breeding divisions, which we
know are going to bring in more entries. Our meat goat
division has doubled in size every year, and it's now our
largest division. We have the opportunity to expand our hog
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show back to the whole 31 counties that participate in
district show, and that could double the size of our hog
show from somewhere between 500 and 1,000 to almost 2,000.
And we can handle 2,000 hogs in the existing barn, and then
we're crammed full, and so we -- you know, that's just where
we're looking at the things that could progress very
rapidly. And I'd say that 19,000 or 20,000 feet would be a
minimum for the next five years, and it could grow much more
rapidly than that. I think the other folks in here need to
understand that expanding that hog barn is something
which -- the cement floor is going to greatly expand the use
of that.
And, speaking as a veterinarian who has a
state convention that I travel to every once in a while, I
know my Yellow vets would love to come to Kerrville if they
had a facility that they could get into that was big enough
to accommodate that kind of people. I -- and while I'm
here, I'm going to chastise the City of Kerrville. Sorry
about that, but I feel like the City of Kerrville needs to
understand -- I'm talking just from the stock show. There
are, gosh, no telling how much; I'm going to estimate at
least 1,000 out-of-town exhibitors here, most of which spend
the night and eat in restaurants. And that -- that goes on
not just for the stock show, but a lot of other events too.
And I think the City needs to realize that and -- and help
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out on that. Thank you.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Sudie?
MS. BURDITT: Sudie Burditt, Kerrville
Convention and Visitors Bureau. Judge Henneke, I appreciate
you dropping back to 20,000 square feet; however, if we talk
about increasing the size of the charity ball, State
Hospital fundraiser, livestock show fundraiser, any of them,
if we want to go to 1,000 people, we need 21,500 square feet
to seat 1,000 people for a banquet and have room to do
entertainment and so forth. So, I would like to say, can we
please make that minimum 21,500, instead of cutting
themselves short, down to -- going only from 600 in this
community to 900?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would you like
22,000?
MS. BURDITT: I'll be happy with 21,500.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that area available --
does that include concession, restrooms, or is that just
actual square footage you need for --
MS. BURDITT: That's actual square footage
you need to seat 1,000 people and have room to have
entertainment. So, that was where we somewhat came up
originally with Quorum with the 21,000 square feet, so that
you had restrooms for your ticket areas and concessions.
But right now, 600 people is the most we can seat at the Ag
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complex. It was the most we could seat with a dance floor
at Knights of Columbus Hall, which limited ticket sales to
all of our fundraisers in our community to 600. If we could
at least get to the 21,5 for the seating area, that would
take us to a limit of 1,000 tickets for any of those events.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me be sure I
understand you. You need 21,5 to seat 1,000 on one single
floor?
MS. BURDITT: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Then you have the
ancillary things that you need.
MS. BURDITT: That's right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kitchen --
MS. BURDITT: That's right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- and/or
concessions.
MS. BURDITT: That's right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And breakout rooms,
perhaps, and --
MS. BURDITT: That's right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- concession stands.
MS. BURDITT: Catering kitchen.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Catering kitchen and
so forth, so on.
MS. BURDITT: That was where Quorum came up
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with the 27,000 square feet.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So that's where
Quorum got 27. Probably the minimum number you need to
accommodate all those things is probably 25?
MS. BURDITT: I do not know the breakout for
all the other situations there, but I do know what we need
for a seated banquet.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. BURDITT: Thank you.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Dave?
MR. NICHOLSON: I'm Dave Nicholson from Hunt.
Judge, I think it would be helpful to you in your
decision-making process if you had some estimates of the
impact on change in revenues and impact on changing annual
operating costs. For example, if you decide to promote
Option 3B, how much will revenues go up because of 3B, and
how much will annual operating costs go up?
JUDGE HENNEKE: We had those estimates with
the Quorum plan, and they were dramatic. The revenues went
from $1.9 million a year to $17 million a year on full
utilization.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That included the big
arena?
JUDGE HENNEKE: That includes the big arena.
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That was the Quorum plan; we haven't done anything on it.
But we're really not coming at this from the point of
revenue. I mean, we have a deficit of approximately
$200,000 a year with the current facility. We need to
provide a facility for the community to utilize. That's
what our discussions are about. This is really not about
maximizing revenues and minimizing expenses. Now, we --
now, yeah, we need to look at that too. But if we get into
that discussion, and if you do it on a pure bean counter
point of view, what we do is we shut down what we have, and
we have nothing.
MR. NICHOLSON: I hear you.
JUDGE HENNEKE: This is a contribution by the
County to the well-being of what we all like to think of as
Kerr County.
MR. NICHOLSON: I think many people are -- at
least some people are concerned about the current deficit,
and they'll want to know how much that deficit is going to
increase, and indeed, if it's going to increase. Perhaps
the -- the enhanced facilities will generate enough revenue
to -- instead of increasing that deficit, to lower it. I
don't know. But that seems reasonable. That's --
JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm sure we can generate some
estimates based on certain scenarios.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would suspect --
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MR. NICHOLSON: I hope so.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would suspect the
operating costs would probably go down, because I don't
think it will take any additional staff to build basically
the same facility that's currently there, just newer and
more efficient. And if you get rid of the -- fix some of
the things at the hog barn, I think your -- your expenditure
side is probably going to stay about the same, and your
revenue side will go up some.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, installation and
all that. Probably cut some of the operating expenses,
utilities.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I appreciate Dave's
comments, but there's another component also, and something
the Court hasn't talked about in an open session like this,
but something each of us recognize as necessary, and that
is, is the County going to continue to operate the facility
on a day-to-day basis, or is it going to turn it over -- the
operation of the facility over to another agency, maybe an
arm's-length corporation, who entertains the operation of
it? That's left for another discussion as well, and that
goes to the point you're talking about, I think, too.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Danny?
MR. EDWARDS: Thank you very much. Danny
Edwards, Hunt, Texas. I have to put Sudie on the spot. It
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would be, in my opinion, very foolish to not focus on giving
us the banquet seating that's needed to bring dozens and
dozens of conventions to this city, and producing millions
and millions of dollars. And I don't know -- remember when
we did the study on this, but if Sudie would indicate to me
how many -- what -- how many more conventions could we go
after if we had this proper seating in relation to what we
have now?
MS. BURDITT: Oh, I did -- I did numbers on
larger -- when we did this earlier. We probably -- we can
book about 38 percent of the conventions in the state of
Texas with what we have and the hotels at this time. The
biggest challenge continues to be that convention groups
need exhibit space, education/seminar space, and banquet
space all at the same time, which ends up backing us down to
the -- the size of the group that we handle best is about a
250- to 300-person convention. So if, all of a sudden, you
can have the banquet in a facility separate from the
facilities where they would do exhibit space and educational
space in the daytime, and have a banquet space, then all of
a sudden you can take that to a 400-person convention with
all three components, so that would step us up -- Danny, my
guess is probably 15 percent more, just in what's out there
throughout the entire state of Texas.
MR. EDWAHllS: At one time, we could double
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the number of conventions we could bring to this county with
So, our deficiency is a place
where these people could eat and display their goods. And
if you can double the number, even by 15 or 20 percent, of
the number of banquets you can bring -- I'm sorry,
conventions you bring to this county, it would do a -- go a
long way to offsetting the deficit of the cost of operation
you have out there. And I think you should seriously
consider, in my opinion, not only expanding for what we need
now, but just as you should do for the stock show, which I'm
fully in support of, you should -- you should take into
consideration the growth of this county in the future and
the number of banquets and conventions that we can bring in.
People love to come to the hill country. Everybody thought
city's too small for it. They were begging to come back the
next time they had it, because they loved the hill country.
And I think we need a facility that will accommodate all
these conventions. That's millions of dollars, and even the
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City of Kerrville should be happy about it.
MS. BURDITT: One of the things that I would
add with what Danny Edwards has to say about that is that
Saturday nights are the prime night. You know that you can
sell 52 nights of the year on Saturday night because of
all -- of everything, from all your charity balls and
functions like that to weddings and so forth. But your
convention groups is where you sell it on Monday, Tuesday,
and Wednesday night when you -- when you bring those groups
in, because they don't typically come in for the weekend.
And in order to keep it -- to keep it full on other nights,
you need to make it where it can facilitate the convention
groups that would use it on another night of the week.
Friday and Saturday nights are easy-sell. We've got to make
it where we can use it on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday night for the other groups.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sudie, let me ask a
question, if you know the answer. I know we can ask the
architect who did all this; he would have the answer. In
terms of space utilization, if it takes 21,5 minimum floor
space to seat 1,000 people -- I assume in the round, right?
MS. BURDITT: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many people can
you put on that floor auditorium-style? Do you know that
equation?
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MS. BURDITT: No. I have it at my office,
but I don't know it in my head.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we'll find that
out. Because that keeps coming back to me, the -- the
thoughts that were given to the Court on more than one
occasion, and the special task force, about the need to
provide that kind of space for contingency purposes for Tivy
High School graduations and other big auditorium-style
events. I'm just curious.
MS. BURDITT: Well, it goes -- you can do
receptions -- let's back into it. Six square feet per
person for a cocktail reception, so if you take your six
times your -- times your 21, you get yourself up to 1,300,
right?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Six into 21, yeah,
okay.
MS. BURDITT: So you go from your six --
6 square foot a person for a standing-room cocktail party.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. BURDITT: To -- to the 21 square feet per
person for rounds of 10 in a seated banquet with serving
space.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. BURDITT: So you get a happy medium in
between the two.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Suffice it to say it
would provide a venue that's not currently --
MS. BURDITT: Right. Obviously, we don't
have anything. I mean, it doesn't matter what -- what we
emptied out; there's not anything that would facilitate that
type of event.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Gene?
MR. SMITH: I can't address the facility, but
I can address something that I made many a mistake in my
professional career: Trying to refurbish something. It
ends up -- you have a contractor. The next thing you -- you
come across, everything is a change; there's a new code.
And I have attempted, because of the bean counters and
auditors, to -- to redo something, and it's -- it ends up
being not properly done. I think what you need to do
here -- there's a lot of wise people in this town. You need
to analyze exactly what you need to do. Forget about
refurbishing, 'cause I guarantee you, refurbishing might
save a few dollars, but you'll have something that you will
not be satisfied with. So, that's my comment. I've made
that mistake, and I had to end up fighting the bean counters
and auditors, but I -- I will not refurbish a facility.
'T'hank you.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Gene. Do you want
to -- would you like to get a direction -- a motion on this
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meeting this afternoon?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Either way.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, I don't know
whether I can craft a motion or not, but I would make a
motion that what we proceed with at this point is
essentially Option 3B, and to cost that. Now, if we need to
adjust the -- the cost for some reason, had to adjust
downward from the 27,000 feet to 2,000 -- or 21,500 or
25,000 or some other number, we can always do that, because
that is a square footage using a fairly straight line once
you cross some number. So, I'll make the motion that we
pursue Option 3B, and that that's what we try to flesh out
and see what we can come up with for a little bit better
defined number by our next court date. I'll move that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll second it.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner
Griffin, second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court
bring item 3B back at the next meeting with refined cost
estimates for further consideration and adoption.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That will work.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or
comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand.
(The motion carried by unanimous vote.)
s-'e-oa ec~~es
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JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign.
(No response.)
JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Anything
else on this topic, gentlemen? If not, we are adjourned
until 6:30 this afternoon.
(Commissioners Court recessed at 3:08 p.m.)
STATE OF TEXAS
COONTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 4th day of June, 2002.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
Kathy anik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
~-~8-0"~ HCYEC
URnER rao. ~:~.-,~a
RF'F'RUVAL. FUR RENUVf~"fI01VS, REF'GIR, RESTURGTION
GNDiUR EXPANSION OF THE HC'rEC
Un this the ,?8th day of Yr1ay ':='IZIiZrc, ~_rpon motion made 6y
Cunimissioner Cyr-iFfin, seconded 6y Commissioner Williams, the
Col~r'~t unanimously approved by a vote of 3-..~-Qr, to 6r-iny item
3Lt baci~ at the next meet:iny wi.h;h reF:i.ned cosP: estirnates for
f~.irther cor~sidera'tion and adoption.
.^