1
..t 2
4
5
5
8
5
10
11
12
r 13
19
1J
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
~3
7q
~J
KERRVILLE CITY COUNCIL
and
KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
City/County Joint Meeting
Wednesday, July 10, 2002
4:00 p.m.
City Council Chambers
800 Junction Highway
Kerrville, Texas
P R E S E N T
Kerrville City Council:
STEPHEN P. FINE, Mayor
DAVID WAMPLER, Mayor Pro Tem
ANN G. SULLIVAN, Place 1
NANCY BANKS, Place 2
GENE SMITH, Place 4
RON PATTERSON, City Manager
Kerr County Commissioners Court:
FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge
H.A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, commis:>ioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 9
~I
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
5
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I N D E ?;
July 10, 2002
1. Call to Order
2. Discussion and appropriate action, if needed, of
joint-budgeted items:
Fire Protection/Emergency Management
EMS
First Responder
Prisoner Support
Police Task Force
Airport
Community Recycling Center
Library
Animal Control
Tax Collection
3. Discussion and appropriate ac~ion, if needed, of
other potential joint ventures:
Municipal Court
Plat Review
Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center
-- Adjourned
PAGE
3
8
12
18
27
29
32
44
48
65
66
68
74
80
100
3
1
2
3
4
S
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
~S
On Wednesday, July 10, 2002, at 4:00 p.m., a special joint
meeting of the Kerrville City Council and the Kerr County
Commissioners Court was held at City Council Chambers, 800
Junction Highway, Kerrville, Texas, and the following
proceedings were had:
P R O C E E D I N G S
MAYOR FINE: I don't know where a gavel's
hidden; I'll just rap knuckles on the table. Sorry I'm
late. Appreciate y'all waiting on me before you got
started. I cant to welcome everyone to the special meeting
of the Kerrville City Council and ]{err County Commissioners
on Wednesday, July 10th, 2002. I want to welcome the County
here. Appreciate y'all coming. This is something we
started last year. I think it was very beneficial in
opening some dialogue, get both of our budgets on track,
keep the line of communication open between our two
governments, and hope everyone dealt with the rain that we
got this afternoon -- a little bit of rain that we got this
afternoon. Fred?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Mayor. And on
behalf of the Kerr County Commissioners Court, I want to
thank you for hosting this event. We'll formally call to
ordeL this joint budget workshop with the City of Kerrville
City Council, and our thanks to you for hosting it. Our
thanks to you and your staff for preparing the workbooks.
-r -~ rs~~
4
1
3
4
5
ti
7
R
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1R
19
20
~l
'z
23
24
25
And, again, I've told you many tim=s, my thanks to you and
to all the members of the Council and the staff for all of
the cooperation and the help that we have enjoyed during the
recent flood event. I think the way that we all came
through this, not just the City and the County, but also the
volunteer fire departments, the volunteer agencies, and the
law enforcement agencies, show how governments can work
together for the good of everybody, and we're here to
continue that trend. So, thank you again for having us
today.
MAYOR FINE: Okay. The Rotary Club just gave
a very generous gift to the Salvation Army today to help
with their efforts, so I'm happy to see members of the
community coming out in full force; it's really nice to see
that. And I want to congratulate Weaks Martin -- I'll say
it one more time, even though he's probably getting more
press than anybody right now; he turned 100 years old
yesterday and he has 62 years of perfect attendance with
Rotary.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Wow..
MAYOR FINE: Sixty-t.wo years.
MS. SOLLIVAN: Talk about dedication.
MAYUH FINE: He's still a pretty spry guy. I
didn't talk to him too much, but it: was really impressive,
62 years. But, anyway, 1 just wanted to give him accolades
y, T
5
1
3
4
5
6
7
ft
9
10
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
23
24
25
one more time. That was a very impressive feat for anybody,
and to live to be 100, I mean, I Mink --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's impressive in
itself.
MAYOR FINE: That's impressive in itself.
Okay. I guess we'll jump right into it.
MR. PATTERSON: (Cell phone rang.) I
apologize. FEMA. I was getting to be good friends with
them. Well, first of all, I'll -- I'll apologize up front
that we're a little disjointed today. And we got the
packets out, but as you well know, you know, with the events
that have occurred over the last week, I'll be very frank
with you, we've had to throw a lot of this, in terms of the
presentation portion of it, togethf=r. The booklets and
everything are fine, and the data':s good there, but our
presentation -- if we're a little rough, I apologize for
that today. But, again, we're -- c~e'll do our very best
today to get this pulled together. First of all, I'd just
like to say thank you again, second year in a row. I think
this is a great process, and one that, you know, I hope that
we continue for a long time. And :C believe it has helped us
both be able to take a look at our joint operations.
So, with that said, what I've -- in the
booklet that we've provided for you -- or notebook; I
shouldn't say booklet -- we've given you again the data that
-i~;-~~~ .:r_
1
r-.
3
4
5
5
7
8
10
11
1Z
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
zs
24
25
6
we use to develop the budgets. We have all the backup
information for each of those budgets behind there. We have
provided all of -- not only the summary pages and our fiscal
notes, but in addition to that, the actual budget documents
that generate the numbers that you see in the book. And I
need to get rid of -- excuse me just a minute. Forgot to
turn off my e-mail. There we go.
The first thing that we might want to look at
here, which we'll jump to here very quickly -- and this only
shows a portion of it, but obvious:Ly, in the very front, the
second tab in the notebook is Tab tdumber 2. And, just to
review that with you very quickly, is that what we have done
is, each program that we'll be discussing today, we have
broken those into the categories, ]rom Emergency Management,
Fire Contract on the far left, all the way across to Animal
Control and Tax Collection on the ]=ar right. What we've
done	is -- is, just as	we	did last	year,	we'	ve provided	what
the -	- the Fiscal Year	'~2	current	budget	is	for each of	the
entities, Kerr County being at the top and Kerrville
followed underneath that. And then in the Totals section
down at the bottom, we've rolled both budgets together. We
thought that was a very good tool i_or you to be able to see
what the actual cost of each of these programs are. In some
cases, the County predominantly funds it; in others the City
predominantly funds. So, it's good to see what the total
i~ u. ;__

1
3
4
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
1/
18
ly
20
21
~~
23
24
~5
cost is, I think. Because, again, they're all the --
they're all the same taxpayers, so that's important
information.
Again, then, in FY '03, those are going to be
the proposed numbers that we'll be discussing today. And
any -- any changes, anything in the change category that you
see on that line item, either in the top or the bottom --
excuse me, in the Rerr County section or the City of
Y.errville section, those are proposed change volumes or
amounts that would be added to the Fiscal Year '02 budget.
So, in other words, if you look in '02 and you see a number
there, and in -- and let's just use Fire Contract, for
instance. Under that, if you'll look down there under the
City, you'll see FY '02 is 2.3 million; FY '03 is 2.8, so
there's, like, a $500,000 difference there. That is the
change that we will be presenting and discussing today a
little bit. And, again, at the bot=tom, you will see what
the total change is for the entire program.
Are there any quest__ons on the summary sheet
before we start actually getting into the actual programs?
Okay. We11, I think, then, we'll jump right in. And what
we'd like to do is start off with fire Suppression and
h:mergency Management. You'll note, in this section, that on
this particular program, that there -- there is not a --
there is not any proposed changes t:o the County contract.
1
3
4
5
E
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
1/
18
ly
20
21
~, ,
23
24
25
8
Last year it was adjusted, you'll recall, by $25,000,
bringing that total to the $100,00() that's reflected.
However, there are some changes in there with regard to
salaries for the fire department, et cetera, that are
contained in those numbers. And, with that said, I'm goinq
to let Raymond take over and talk about Fire Contract and
Emergency Management, and then we have Kyle here to discuss
with us about the Emergency Medical Director, and you may
cover that, and also the First Responder program. Raymond?
MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, as Ron mentioned
earlier, there is -- there's no changes in the fire contract
with the County. We felt like, last year, that we needed it
to be adjusted, and y'a11 agreed to that change, so there's
no changes in that. The change, then, in Emergency
Management Coordinator's position --- and if y'all would like
for me to briefly go over some of t=his, I'll be glad to.
MR. PATTERSON: You might talk about the call
level volumes.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Yeah. The City has been
averaging approximately 566 calls --- fire calls per year,
and 116 those have been into the county. That's an average.
The number of runs in the first nine months of this year,
we've made 551 calls; 92 of those are in the county. This
compares with 540 calls during the first nine months of last
year, with 1~i9 in the county. So, we've made a few fewer

1
..-..
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
.-~ 1 3
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
~5
9
calls into the county in the first nine months of this year
than we did last year, but there again, that's based on the
averaae. We're pretty close to what the average is per --
for -- actually, looks like we may be making more calls at
that part of it?
Now, Emergency Management Coordinator's
position. And I'm the coordinator for the city of
Kerrville, city of Ingram, and Ker-.c County. And, of course,
my responsibility is to coordinate„ as I have been doing the
last several days. I've earned my money today -- this last
couple weeks. But we -- one of the requirements for being
Emergency Management Coordinator is that I have to keep the
plan updated, and I think most of y'all have seen the plan.
There's several annexes in it, and then we have to have
simulated disasters once a year, and that kind of has helped
us.	When	we open	the E.	U.C.	up, and for the process we'	ve
had	to go	through	during	this	flooding situation, the --	the
State pays a certain percentage. L'm a SU percent
coordinator, and so the -- what th<~t means is that 50
percent of my time, I -- I spend toward some type oT
emergency	management	operation	during	the	year. And so
the -- our	budget is	$12,369,	and the	City	-- actually, the
T,r
1
3
4
6
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
1~
13
19
0
21
22
23
24
25
10
City pays $12,369, and then the County pays $3,70 of that
contract. That hasn't changed -- gee whiz, it's been a long
time since we've made any changes .o that -- that part of
the contract, and some of that is based on my salary. I
Are there any questions on the
Emergency Management Coordinator portion of that?
MAYOR FINE: Does the real emergency count as
your training for this year?
Mx. HULLUWAY: Well, what we can apply -- and
when we have an actual occurrence, we can apply for a
full-scale simulated disaster, and generally they give us
that. So, yeah, this will -- we'll apply for that, so we
this year. Now, what we have to do at the hospitals, both
the V.A. and the -- and Sid Peterson, they have to have a
simulated disaster every year, so we kind of coordinate with
them, and what we end up doing is just bringing patients in
to them, and then they work in the emergency rooms to see
how they can handle that type of situation. So, we do that
every year, and that's usually how we do our simulated
disasters. But if we have an actual occurrence, you know,
-„~ 1
1
3
9
5
6
7
8
lU
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~2
23
2q
25
11
usually end up having to do another -- a smaller -- a
simulation with the hospital.
MR. PATTERSON: Primarily triage-type thing.
MR. HOLLOWAY: What we'll do is they'll get a
bunch of patients from Schreiner College or somewhere and
we'll fix them up to look like they've got broken bones;
it's really pretty cool. And our guys -- ambulance will
pick them up, take them to the emergency room.
MR. PATTERSON: Tha_ really wasn't exercised
a whole lot in this one, thank God.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, thank goodness. We took
a few patients to the hospital, but I think there were,
like, nine people injured total, and three of them were --
were firefighters who had minor injuries, cuts and twisted
legs and stuff like that, but nothing serious. Any other
questions on that part of it?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Loops good.
MR. PATTERSON: Are there -- I would like to
ask, too -- I mean, are there any Issues that you've seen
with this current operation that we can look at for the
future, too?
MR.. HOLLOWAY: There will be a r_ritique when
this is all over with, and we'll s-_t down and critique what
we could have done maybe better and what we did -- did do
good. But, you know, after it kind of calms down a r_ouple
- ~u_r~? ,1~,c
12
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
19
I5
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
~3
24
25
weeks, we'll probably try to do that.
MR. PATTERSON: All right, thank you.
MR. HOLLOWAY: The ?MS program, last year we
raised -- well, actually, back up a minute. Last year we
talked about adding another crew to our transfer crew. We
have one crew -- we had one crew that runs 8:00 to 5:00,
five days a week, doing most of the transfers back anal forth
to San Antonio. We -- after discussion with the hospital,
we felt like we were losing some of those transfers to the
private ambulance services, and so we felt like that if we
added another crew, then we could pick up those, and we
wouldn't be losing that revenue to private companies. So,
we applied for a grant last year, and hoping that -- that if
we got the grant -- it was to buy an ambulance and some
equipment, and then we would furnish the people. Well, we
were turned down on that grant. Tiaice, actually. And,
because of that, we had to raise the rates 10 percent last
year, and we're going to have to raise the rates 10 percent
again this year in order to try to keep up -- keep our heads
at least right below the water level.
And, so, the EMS operation, in case some of
y'a11 are not aware -- I think everybody is aware, that's a
user-pay system. No taa money at all goes into the
operation of the EMS. If we don't pick you up, it doesn't
cost you a penny for EMS. if we pick you up, then there's a
-lu
13
1
3
4
5
5
7
8
y
10
11
12
13
i9
15
16
17
18
19
'' 0
21
22
23
24
25
charge for that, and that's what makes our operation work.
If we don't get the revenue in, then we can't -- you know,
it's more difficult for us to make it meet. So, we were
supposed to raise the rates when we first took over EMS,
5 percent every year for the first five years. We11, we did
so well the first year that we on1:y raised the rates one
time, and through that same period of time, there were
salary increases. We also added three additional people to
the budget, and we started realizing that, well, wait a
minute, the revenue's not coming in as fast as the money's
going out. So, that's the reason .Eor the 10 percent
increase in the rates also again this year. And I guess
that's about all on EMS operation, unless y'all have some
questions. I think I've given y'a:Ll this -- this talk
before.
MR. PATTERSON: I was just going to add to
something you said, too. Remember, also, part of the goal
of -- of adding that crew -- the transfer crew this year
was, they're -- actually, the primary reason for adding them
was simply the fact that the actua=_ -- and you have to break
it down; it's all in the same EMS budget, but you really
have two functions, EMS and transfers. Those are two
distinct functions. And what was happening was -- is the
transfer load was beginning to impact on EMS so much that
they were getting eaten up with time making these transfer

1
2
3
4
5
E
7
8
9
10
11
l~
13
19
IS
15
17
1s
19
20
21
~,
23
~4
25
19
runs, taking them out of the county. And so the idea was to
add this other crew, get them on board so we can begin to
take some of that burden off the E1~1S crews, and that is
working.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Right.
MR. PATTERSON: It':s not 100 percent, but
it's working, and so we want to continue to monitor that,
look at that, too. But that was another key ingredient why
this was done. Now, I know some people kind of thought,
well, you know, it's to generate more money. Well, you add
the other crew, yes, it generates more money to pay for the
crew you're adding, but the idea is to get the load off of
those EMS crews, because we wanted to keep them in here as
much as possible.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Yeah. The crew -- the EMS
crews that we're talking about, they work 24-hour shifts, so
if they take a -- a transfer to San Antonio, it's about a
three-and-a-half-hour turnaround. By the time you get the
patient on board, you go to San Antonio and get back and
r_lean the ambulance and restock, well, that's about three
hours. So, if they take a -- take someone to San Antonio,
say, at 2 o'clock in the evening, by the time they get
turned around and get back down here, well, you're looking
at midnight. Well, it's possible ghat they could make
another transfer at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning. So, you
„ _ z ,r
1
2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
l5
17
18
19
.0
~1
22
23
Z4
25
15
know, they're on the highway a lot of hours driving back and
forth, and it was real hard on those guys. So, by doing
this, we were able to follow more transfers during the
period that they worked. And our orews are working from
7:30 to -- well, 7:00 -- 7:30 to 7:00, we have a transfer
crew on the road, so we're able to relieve some of those
guys -- emergency guys a little bit, and that's helping.
It's raking a lot of burden off these guys; it's keeping
them from maybe getting a little bsrnout.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just an indirect comment.
I don't know if you know or not, bst it looks like the
Hermann Sons temporary bridge washed out.
MR. HOLLOWAY: I kind of heard that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the -- we need to be
real careful on the retirement community out there. I know
when there was -- that last time it was washed out,
especially in Kendall County. We probably need to look at
ma}:ing sure that that area is covered with the --
MR. HOLLOWAY: We'1.1 get with Kendall County
and see if they'll honor that same agreement we had the last
time.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hopefully.
Mk. YA'1"PERSON: Is ghat -- the temporary
bridge is gone?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We think. We're not sure
- 1 n- n ,. ,7 r r
16
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
23
~4
25
where it went, but it's not --
MR. HOLLOWAY: Still underwater, isn't it?
MR. PATTERSON: Not where it's supposed to
be?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can see the railroad
cars aren't there. We're not sure where it went, but it's
not -- I mean, we're -- hopefully, it's just under a gravel
bar. May be in Canyon Lake with everything else from up
here.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Yeah. The area he's talking
about is in Kerr County; it's almost all the way to Comfort.
Well, in order to go to these people, you know, you have to
go into Comfort and go way back around. I don't know --
what is it, 5 miles, E miles out o.` the way?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's about 20 minutes,
actually, but it's a dangerous road.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Real crooked road.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Real difficult road to --
MR. HOLLOWAY: And last year, Kendall County
responded to that for us.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Primarily. 'Cause it's
something we just need to look ar, figure out what we're
going to do.
MR. HOLLOWAY: We'11 go over that tomorrow.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A retirement community's
-, _ ~~_ ,ir,~
17
1
J
9
5
6
7
R
9
10
11
l~
13
14
15
16
17
1S
19
~0
21
22
23
24
25
a high percentage of calls.
MR. PATTERSON: You bet.
MR.. HOLLOWAY: Is there any other questions
on the EMS portion? The medical director, we're required --
when you run an EMS operation, you're required by law to
have a medical director that is in charge -- well, actually,
we will run off of his license. So, we have a medical
director. And, actually, last year we reduced the amount
that -- that the County was paying, because we reduced the
salary for the medical director. As you can see, that --
this is not going to change any this year; we'll keep it the
same.
MR.. PATTERSON: I was just about to say --
MR. HOLLOWAY: Right, it was both. I think
Ingram also pays a little bit, but a small amount.
MR. PATTERSON: How did we figure that
number? I'll be honest with you. Like I said, we didn't
have a chance to talk, so --
MR. HOLLOWAY: I'll be honest with you, that
was finance. Did that when we first did the thing. And we
-- that hasn't been changed.
MR. TUNE: It was done in '94. That's been
so long ago that it was either pro rata share of runs or
mileage, and there was some --
MR. HOLLOWAY: And run volume was a big part
la
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
R
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
'1
22
23
24
2S
of it. So, we didn't make that many runs into Ingram.
MR. PATTERSON: Has that changed now?
MR. HOLLOWAY: We're probably making a few
more, but not really too many.
MR. PATTERSON: That.'s something we probably
ought to look at.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Next year we'll look at that.
MR. PATTERSON: Everybody has to pay their
fair share. That helps all of us.
MR. HOLLOWAY: Righi_.
MR. PATTERSON: Okay.
MR. HOLLOWAY: In fact, we were fixing to
approach Center Point about paying a share, and then, of
course, they went unincorporated, :so we don't do that any
more. Are there any questions on she medical director
portion of it? And the medical di.rer_tor, part of his
responsibility is, he has to give C.E. to our paramedics.
So he comes down to give C.E. classes to our paramedics,
and, of course, the paramedics have to have that C.E. to
keep their certification. First Responder program. I am
going to turn that over to Kyle, because he is in charge of
the First Responder program, and so, you're on board.
MR. YGONG: The First Responder program part
of the funding there is a quarter of my salary to organize
li the First Responders, take care of them, keep their
~ - T
19
1
2
4
5
E
7
8
9
In
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
2s
certifications up and train them on a fairly regular basis.
We have been doing quite a bit of training. Sometimes they
show up; sometimes they don't. So, summer camps are going.
A lot of our First Responders are our camp people, so
they're -- they haven't been showing up, but they're --
they're assuring me that if we keep going, they will show
up. We've -- we've got some very good First Responders.
The ores that we do have are very dedicated; they're always
on the scene when we need them.
Some of the other things that we're looking
at, the changes this year, as we said last year, we need to
recruit more First Responders. We"re fairly short on the
First Responders that we do have. A lot of them are -- are
firefighters doing this in their off-duty time. There are
-- are two zones in the city or in the county that -- that
have no First Responders at all, so we want to really try to
recruit in those areas. And, as I said last year, we need
to probably have an EMT class, and we figured $6,000 would
fund an EMT class for 10 people. C've had -- I've got at
least that many wanting -- that have called me wanting to
take the class. We asked last yeas= for $1,500 for
equipment. That has helped us. We had First Responders
that were certified, that were wan=ing to respond that had
no equipment, and we've got that out to them and they're
responding now. We're also looking at $2,550 for some

20
1
.-.
3
4
5
6
7
R
9
10
11
12
~-. 1 3
14
15
16
17
18
19
=0
21
22
23
,,,~ 2 4
25
communications equipment. What we're wanting to do there is
a pager-type of radio that is -- is out where, when they're
-- when the dispatch sets off their.- pager, it goes off on
their radio, but they still have the ability to talk to the
responding units coming in, which we feel is -- is a
responder safety issue, because if they're on scene and they
need to tell us something, then that helps us. We car. get
on there, communicate with them, tell them what to do to the
patients if it's an advanced care issue. So, that's
something that is beginning to get critical. We have no
extra pagers for these new people once they come on.
So, that's basically the changes that -- that
we're asking for this time. The $1,500 in equipment, we try
to maintain the equipment that they do have now. A lot of
the responders bring their equipment up and we try to repair
them with this last money that -- that you allotted for us;
we bought a lot of repair equipment to try to repair the
equipment instead of having to replace it all the time, and
that has worked out really well. ~1 lot of times on a --
say, an i~-2 regulator, it gets knocked over and bumped and a
gauge breaks. Well, we bought extra gauges instead of
buying extra regulators, so that we can just replace that
gauge instead of the whole regulator. So, hopefully, we'll
be able to keep this equipment in service a lot longer. Any
questions on the first one?
__-_~ 1c_
zl
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
y
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
lg
19
20
21
-, -,
ZS
24
25
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where in the county
are you uncovered?
MR. YOUNG: Zone ? --- no, 1, which is south
Kerr County out towards River Hills, that way, and then Zone
3, which is 16 North. I visited with Comfort Fire
Department a couple weeks ago. They're wanting to take the
far west end of the county and actually join our First
Responder group and respond into the county. They've agreed
t~ du that, and we've also looked at adding another zone up
along the interstate, because the zone that that's in, a lot
of the Hunt First Responders cover the interstate, and it's
hard for them to get around up there. So, we're recruiting
some new people along that area that can respond up on the
interstate; we're going to create a new zone with that for
those people.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: F;yle, how many First
Pesponders did you have this time oast year?
MR. YOUNG: This time last year, we had 15 or
16, I do believe.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How many do you have
now?
MP,. YOUNG: We have 2~ now.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And in that one-year
period, how many of those folks have you certified?
MR. YOUNG: I've signed off on sis

2L
1
2
3
4
5
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
2~
23
29
25
recertifications.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIPS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many would you
like to have?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Twenty.
MR. YOUNG: Twenty rlore. Twenty more. These
people -- our guys are always real happy to see them there.
They can get there and start lifesaving efforts before we
can. The brain dies in six to -- you know, four to six
minutes. And parts of the county, you know how long it
takes us to ger there. If these people are out there and
they can start getting oxygen to the brain by CPR, by giving
oxygen, they can save lives, and they do every day.
MR. PATTERSON: You said you had
approximately -- I think you said "LO people interested in
that r_lass?
MR. YOUNG: I've probably got more.
MR. PATTERSON: Are those people -- are there
names on that list, people who are in those areas?
MR. YOUNG: Yes. Yes, a lot of them are
volunteer firefighters in those areas that are -- that are
currently not medically certified that would love to do it,
and they're basically -- they're already in the
infrastructure to be able to respond to it. So, just
getting them trained and equipped to be on would be a great
1, _ ~.
23
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
13
19
20
~i
~~
~' 3
24
LS
thing.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIDI: Kyle, one issue that
keeps coming to me is, supposedly, there's some kind of a
program that -- that we could possibly reimburse or pay a
volunteer per run. I never have gotten my brain around
that, but do you ever intend to look at that as a part of
our program? Or --
MR. YOUNG: None of the responders that I've
visited with are even interested in that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. We'll drop it
right there.
MR. YOUNG: Serious.Ly, none of them -- I
mean, all these people, they want 1_o do it and they're proud
to do it. They've never even asked for any type of
reimbursement. They've never thought about that. The only
thing they've brought up is the training. There is an
Internet-based C.D. that is fairly cheap. Later on, we
might look at some of that. But, really, seriously, they've
never approached me with that. 't'hey seem to be real happy
to do it, as long as we take care of them with equipment and
the *_hings that they need.
MAYOR FINE: There was a push a few years ago
to purchase some of the -- those AEU's.
MR. YOUNG: Yes, sir.
MAYOR FINE: Did that ever happen? Did we
-1'. ~,- ~ J^'7
~, 9
1
2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
l~
11
12
13
14
15
1b
17
18
19
20
~1
23
24
25
ever get my more of those?
MR. YOUNG: We've got a few out there. Some
of our First Responders have some. We just applied -- Texas
Department of Health is going to apply for a huge grant to
purchase AED's. We sent off a letter of commitment to them
that we justified placing AED's in all the patrol cars, with
all First Responders that -- that don't have AED's, and with
places inside the City and County buildings.
MAYOR FINE: I know --
MR. HOLLOWAY: Seventy-two.
MP.. YOUNG: Seventy--two, we applied for. So,
hopefully, we can make a dent. I'Ll be real optimistic. I
don't know that we'd get that many, but any will help.
MAYOR FINE: I know they placed several of
them around town there. One's at 1_he golf course and a few
other places, and they've been used in --
MR. YOUNG: Right.
MAYOR FINE: It definitely works.
MR. YOUNG: Any time you can defibrillate a
heart when it goes into ventricular fibrillation there --
the earlier you can defibrillate the heart, the better the
chances of the patient recovering.
MAYOR. FINE: What do those things cost?
Somebody --
MR. YOUNG: Anywhere from $1,000 to $5,000.
- ~ 1
25
1
2
3
4
5
5
7
8
G
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
~0
21
23
24
25
MAYOR FINE: Somebody found a good price on
them; supposed to be pretty nice ones.
MR. YOUNG: You can get them used or
refurbished, or they go up to $5,000 or $6,000, depending on
what you want on them.
MAYOR FINE: Okay.
MR. PATTERSON: One--button kick-start.
MAYOR FINE: That's right.
MR. YOUNG: They're easy; you just push a
button and put pads on them, and ---
MAYOR FINE: Stand back and watch it work.
MP.. YOUNG: Anything you can do, it tells you
what to do.
MAYOR FINE: Just don't hold their hand.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Maybe you could get some with
a crank.
MAYOR FINE: Don't give anybody any ideas.
MR. YOUNG: Okay, thank you.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Kyle.
MAYOR FINE: That's called fishing gear right
there.
JUDGE HENNEKE: That's right.
MS. SULLIVAN: Could I ask a question?
There's something in -- in this whole chapter about a
certain team; it's a C.I.S.M. What is that?

2h
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
23
24
?5
MR. YOUNG: That's the Critical Incident
Stress Management team.
MS. SULLIVAN: Okay.
MR. YOUNG: It helps our firefighters and
First Responders deal with critical incidents that we
respond to.
MS.
MR.
we're looking at.
next year. And it
it would also be f
MR.
MR.
services.
SULLIVAN: I remember that.
PATTERSON: Yes. That's something that
It's proposed iri our programs for this
would be for firefighters, and I believe
or police officers as well.
YOUNG: Yes.
PATTERSON: So, all of our protective
MS. SULLIVAN: Than}: you. I didn't know what
it stood for.
MR. PATTERSON: 1'l1 be honest with you. 1
mean, you know, I'm a real believer in those programs.
These people see and deal with therm a lot, and these
programs work. I mean, people will -- you know, they're
back to work, you know, fully functioning. And, you know,
otherwise they kind of stuff -- stuff it down inside. And,
you know, if you do that, it takes them out of commission
right then or six months later, and this is something to
really help them with that. It's just -- I think it's a

27
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
i9
20
21
22
23
24
25
good thing.
MAYOR FINE: We're going to set one up for
City Council pretty quick.
(Laughter.)
MR. PATTERSON: Okay. The next area is
Prisoner Support. Chuck?
MR.. DICKERSON: Where's the Sheriff when you
need him? Y'all have already listened to this one today; I
think he had his budget presentation. So, this basically is
the Sheriff advising us that the costs of the jail are going
up, and the amount that he is wanting to go up is from 30 to
37, which is quite an increase, but: apparently he's taking
such good care of those prisoners ghat the costs for housing
them overnight and that has gone tYirough the roof. We came
up with the 936 number because that's basically what we did
last year, so we anticipate putting those same people in
jail next year, the same number, and that's the increased
amount.
MAYOR FINE: When was the last increase?
MR. DICKERSON: The last increase? Oh, it's
been a long time.
MAYOR FINE:
time in coming, too.
MR. DICKERSON
MR. PATTERSON
So maybe this has been a long
Right.
Whez I look. bacY. -- I look

28
1
2
3
4
G
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
through the five-year history back on all this stuff as we
go through it. I didn't see anything in that window.
MR. DICKERSON: Yeah, it's been a long time.
We've always -- in the past, have always tried to talk each
other out of those kind of increases and that so that we
don't -- we don't go and charge the. County for executing
their warrants, and you don't charge us a whole lot for
these prisoners, and that's the kind of battle we've had
running for about 26 years that I know of. But this time
Rusty really does need some extra money to take care of
those people, so I'm not obliged to fight him on that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That only applies to the
misdemeanors.
MR. DICKERSON: That_'s just, yeah, the Class
C misdemeanors there that are arrested for city offenses;
traffic fines, public intoxication, those type of things.
Those people that we arrest for DWI, the County aets all of
that money.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Gets all that
expense, too.
MR. DICKERSON: The County takes care of the
expense of those people. We do appreciate that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably that's why the
second number is so much bigger than the first one.
MR.. DI~.:KERSON: 'That's right.
--~r,-,_.,_ 7,..
29
1
3
4
5
h
8
9
10
11
l
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
~0
2i
23
24
25
MR. PATTERSON: Like I said when we started,
there's some programs the County carries the lion's share;
there's some that the City carries. Just the way it works,
but it works out good. Anything else, Chuck?
MR. DICKERSON: No.
MR. FATTERSON: Let's see. Next one's yours,
too.
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. Task force. As you're
all aware, in January of -- of this year, we came before the
different bodies of government asking for permission to
apply for grant funds to continue the task force operation.
This task force has been in operat_~on since 1987. Since
that time, we have -- Kerrville and Kerr County have been
the leading agency entities in this thing. We -- we pay the
lion's share of the costs, because we pretty much have the
most employees involved in it.
CGMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How many? How many
City guys are on the tas}: force?
MR. DICKERSON: Okay. The City has three
people on the task force and the Gcunty has two people.
Fredericksburg -- City of Fredericksburg has two people, but
the County -- Gillespie County helps with some kind of
salary reimbursement to the City for one of those guys. And
the rest of the agencies supply one person. Although each
year here lately, the fed has cut the tasY. force funding.

30
1
2
3
4
5
5
8
9
10
11
l~
13
14
15
16
17
i8
19
20
21
~~
23
24
25
Last year it was 13 percent. This year, well, they figure
ar_ least 13 or maybe 20 percent. So probably, if that
happens again, we're going to have to start cutting
personnel, because there's not a wt-ole lot of equipment in
these -- in this grant, so we'll have to trim back on --
trim back on the amount of people we have over there. But,
basically, this is a good program. It helps the majority of
the cases that are generated and benefits the City and the
County of Kerr. But the other agencies, like Bandera -- we
were just over there working just a few weeks ago, and they
would not have the resources at all to be trying to take
drugs off the street, and whereas the task force is able to
commit a group of guys to go over there and take care of
these problems that crop up over there. Down in Kendall
County and Boerne, they just don't have the resources.
Mk. PATTERSON: Last year they looked at a
little over $1.2 million worth of seizures, and they've got
over a half million logged so far this year. And, if I
remember right, like, 120, liU arrests, somewhere in that
neighborhood.
MR. DICKERSON: They keep busy. There's lots
of work out there.
COMMISSlUNER BALDWIN: Actually, we're real
fortunate. Our -- I was around when the program came in --
it was the Governor's task force back then.

1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
23
24
25
31
MR. DICKERSON: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And their funding was
supposed to have gone down many years ago.
MR. DICKERSON: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And we're just now
beginning to feel --
MR. DICKERSON: If I can just -- for your
information, back in '87 when it first started, the City had
five employees. We had the commander and -- and half of the
investigators.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right.
MR. DICKERSON: So, the City had a big chunk
in that thing, and I believe at that time, though, the
County also had two guys in there, so the County's been
consistent in their participation .level, too.
MR. WAMPLER: Chuck, what's the
program income?
MR. DICKERSON: That's from drug seizures. I
mean, the money seized or property that's sold at auction.
What you're seeing there is, each year we're winding up
using more and more program income to try to keep from going
up too much on the different entities for our shares. If we
didn't have any program income, then, of course, that
$31,000 would have to come from us and these other agencies.
MR. PATTERSON: Have to spread out grant
-LQ-u Srr
32
1
2
3
4
5
5
7
B
9
10
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
~l
22
23
24
zs
match, in other words.
MR. DICKERSON: Right. Any other questions
on that?
MR. PATTERSON: Okay. Thank you, Chuck. The
next area is going to be the airport operations, and Megan
is here. I will tell you at this time there's an update
there, too. We -- we did find out, on the airport, that we
did have some damage to one of the buildings during this
event. We have reported that. We turned that in. It was
just -- it was not -- it was no aviation-related incidents.
This was on -- what's the name?
MS. CAFFALL: It's the V.A. Products
warehouse, and it wasn't -- wasn't er.tensive.
MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. And, again, there was
some, but we did get that reported. I just want to let you
know.
MS. CAFFALL: We had 27 inches of rain at the
airport from Saturday morning till Friday afternoon, so we
got more at the airport than we qot in town.
MR. PATTERSON: And we also recently had an
incident -- it was Sunday a week ago. There was a -- a
Citation jet went off the end of the runway. It was trying
to come in, I believe, on the I.L.S. right in the middle of
a downpour. And, as you know, it's an older aircraft that
doesn't have thrust reversal, and so he was trying to rely a

33
1
4
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
~~
23
24
25
hundred percent on his brakes, and just went right off the
end. Thank goodness, there was four souls on board and
nobody hurt, except -- other than, I think, probably that
pilot's wits. But they -- they did -- they were able to
recover the aircraft. The airplane actually just went off
the end and sunk in the mud, and they came in with a balloon
system where they went underneath it, lifted the plane up,
put wood underneath it, rolled it off. It appears the
airplane didn't even -- did not have substantial damage. I
don't know if it had gear damage or not, but didn't look
like it.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Pilot's ego suffered a
little bit of damage on that; that's about it.
MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. So, it was good --
I mean, it turned out okay. But, again, other than that,
I'm going to let Megan brief you on the airport operations
and go from there. Why don't you come up?
MS. CAFFALL: Basically, we're doing okay
this year. Our revenues are not what we planned on, but our
revenues are doing all right. Our expenses are -- are
keeping in line. We have gotten the contract for
engineering services, which is a favorable contract. We've
been able to do some additional things -- excuse me -- so
we're looking forward to next year. I'm being very
conservative on our revenue projections. I feel very lucky
i~~ a -sc
1
.-.. 2
3
4
5
6
7
ft
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
~,, 2 4
L S
34
to have gotten through the last two years without having had
to come to you and say I'm out of money. I think that,
pay for itself next year. We're looking at the grant match
for our capital improvements next year. What the City and
County share will be above the operating expenses. Is there
anything I'm missing?
MR. PATTERSON: Well, in general, I mean, the
-- from the number -- looking at the numbers, it's very
clear that without the grant matches, the airport's
operatinq in the black, as far as operational costs. That's
clear. You can easily remove those numbers, and everything
balances. We continue programs here -- you'll recall in
FY '02, the current year, there was that obligation to those
grants, and then this was -- this is the second half of that
where we said, okay, we're going to do Phase I, and this is
basically Phase II of that same project schedule. So, this
grant match is really just to wrap up what we started in
this fiscal year. So, I mean, it -- again, there -- there
is no -- this is no new information from what was presented
last year, so there's no change to that. We just want to be
clear on that. But it's -- but, again, it is a substantial
dollar amount. The other thing, too, is -- is that, in
addition to these improvements, should you choose to fund
these, is that, you know, there's also the -- the sewer line
~ _ ~ ~~ 1~
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
y
10
11
l~
13
14
1J
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
35
project is under way. That is -- and I won't stick my foot
in my mouth. Didn't we just put that out to bid?
MS. CAFFALL: We had the prebid conference
today.
MR. PATTERSON: Tha-'s right. So, prebid
conference today, so that should be wrapping up very
shortly, getting started on that. Obviously, weather
permitting.
MS. CAFFALL: It would be next week. It
begins next week.
MR. PATTERSON: So, that project will make a
huge improvement as well, which is not part of this grant
funding. And, Megan, could I ask you why the T-hangars
aren't moving as quick as maybe you would have liked them to
move?
MS. CAFFALL: Well, you know, that was both a
mystery and a disappointment to me that, unfortunately, we
opened their doors a month after September 11th, and it did
affect our general aviation recreational -- I had Tour --
four of the people that they were promised to say either,
"My wife says..." or the airplane is the first thing that
goes. They are filling. We're holding our ground. I've
predicted revenues at 50 percent, just to be conservative,
because things could get worse, not better.
MS. S[7LLIVAN: Yes, right.
-] ~- _ Jc~
36
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Ll
22
23
24
25
MS. CAFFALL: But we are at 75 percent
occupancy now, and they are filling with people from out of
town. We haven't had a whole lot cf local participation in
them, because most of our planes here are housed and have
chosen to stay housed in larger hangars. It's just a
question of time and filling, and also the economy.
MR. PATTER.SON: The other thing, too, for the
current year --
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR. PATTERSGN: -- correct me if I'm wrong,
but if I remember right, we projected revenue on that
facility at 60 or 65 percent occupancy.
MS. CAFFALL: 90 percent.
MR. PATTERSON: 90? 90 percent.
MS. CAFFALL: Last year we were looking for
money. I mean, we did not anticip<ite getting any money from
Mooney. Mooney has paid -- they're paying their lease this
year, but last year at budget time, we didn't know what was
going to happen. And we've also captured some other revenue
sources. We made a favorable lease to B.A. Products, which
is a nonaviation-related lease. Those people are a business
that's not related to aviation and the airport, so that
gives you a little bit of stability there. That's a
five-year lease. And they have a nice operation. Now, if
we look at -- when we get sewer into the facility, at
-1. -~~_ -e,,
37
1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
1~
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
23
24
25
developing that side of the road and offering opportunities,
we may get some development in conjunction with the business
park across the way.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Megan, do all of our
leases out there have COLA triggers, automatic triggers,
cost-of-living adjustments?
MS. CAFFALL: Yes, sir. And those -- those
created more revenue this year as well.
COMMISSIONER WILLIANfS: I don't know whether
Larry hears this or not, but -- again, Larry and I both
serve on the Airport Board -- but I hear from time to time
from aircraft owners and pilots that our fuel charges are
not -- our fuel fees, rate per-gallon, is not competitive
with other airports. Do you believe that it is?
MS. CAFFALL: We have a full-service F.B.O.
They pump your gas, they pull your plane out. They give you
full-service. That costs you more than flying to
Fredericksburg or Castroville, or we have a number of
airports that are very close to us that are either
subsidized by their cities, sell fuel at cost or at just
pennies above cost, because they want to generate traffic at
their airport, Our F.B.O. has people that they pay to pump
fuel, and we sell four to five timE=_s as much jet fuel as we
do under low lead. We have a very vocal local general
aviation community, and they choose to go elsewhere just to
1
38
1
2
3
4
5
5
7
8
9
10
11
1~
.~-. 13
14
15
15
17
18
19
'' 0
_1
22
23
24
25
save money, and they save some money. Now, our F.B.O. fuel
sales this year, again, I've been conservative at projecting
revenues, but we are ahead of last year, and it's
predominantly jet fuel. So, it's just -- you can't sell
fuel that cheap if you're paying people to pump it.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's -- I equate it --
and on all the airports I fly to, I pay some attention to
the fuel prices, but we're very competitive for the kind of
service that we give. There's another aspect of it, too.
It's a little bit like some of the people I know who live in
Kerrville who say, "Gosh, I go to San Antonio to buy
gasoline because it's a nickel a gallon cheaper."
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I'm
talking about.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's a little bit of
that mentality. You've got -- you've got to have a real
good reason to go to San Antonio, .>omething other than going
to buy gasoline, if you're going to --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You think so?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- spend an hour and a
half each way on the road just to go buy a gallon of cheaper
gas. So, it's a little bit of thal_ mentality. And some
people will do that, thinking that's very cost-effective.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The comparison that's
made to me most often is against Fredericksburg.

39
1
2
3
4
5
H
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, it's not a full
service F.B.O.
MS. CAFFALL: It's not full-service fuel.
You get out and you pump your own.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the question.
If I hear it again, I'll answer the question.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You can say you don't
get a red carpet to step on when ycu go to Fredericksburg.
COMMISSIONER WILLIANfS: In other words, they
don't wash your windshield.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIrI: Don't wash your
windshield.
MAYOR FINE: It's cheaper to go the
self-serve than it is a full-service line.
MS. SOLLIVAN: Exactly, same thing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Megan, you mentioned
briefly the zoning board out at thE= airport, the write-up.
Can you tell me how's that going to -- when is that going to
happen? What are they going to do'? And kind of update what
that group is and who is going to be on it, how they get on
it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Airport Board.
MS. CAFFALL: It is the -- our Airport
Advisory Board is also our Airport Zoning Board. The zoning
board has power to enact ordinances -- or zoning

40
1
2
3
4
5
ti
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
L8
19
20
~1
~~
23
24
25
legislation, and our zoning around the airport will be tied
to just every time we meet. It's whenever we get the master
plan completed and back from the consultant. It has been
through final review at the F.A.A., so we're in the process
of getting it bark now, but that will generate noise
contours that are based on what kind of traffic we get now,
what they predict we'll get in 10 years, and we'll probably
use the 1G-year noise pattern to select land use areas
where, if you're within the 60-decibel noise contour, you
probably don't want to build a house there. And so we can
have zoning ordinances that says you can't build a house
there unless you put soundproofing in it.
COMMISSIONER. LETZ: But what is the aerial
extent that the zoning can take place?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Airport property,
period.
MS. CAFFALL: Well, roughly -- I don't have
the -- they didn't give us this pretty noise contour map,
but it's not a whole lot bigger than these yellow areas on
either end. It follows Lhose contours. It's not as
extensive -- it's not going to blanket the whole county on
either end.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it's not like a --
MS. CAFFALL: Uses are pretty close to
normal.

41
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
ly
20
21
~2
~3
24
~5
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, half a mile around
the airport or something like that? It's very specific
areas?
MS. CAFFALL: It's very specific around the
end of the runway. Just for an example, when the Catholic
high school looked at -- there was some controversy about
them locating their school there, because it was fairly
close to the airport. The noise contour would not have
prohibited that use at that area, and that's within a mile
of the end of the runway. So --
MR. PATTERSON: Just to share something with
y'all, I went through -- I was part of a group that did a
land -- land use analysis and noise compatibility study on
an airport, and just to give you an example, I'll share this
with you; I'll pass this around. But this is -- basically,
what would be generated is noise contours like you see here.
And, generally speaking, on the approach and departure end
of the runway is where you're going to get most of the
noise, typically. It measures this in what they call LUN,
which is basically measurements over time. In other words,
it's not a single event, what they call an SEL. A single
event level is when a single -- you know, a single event
where an individual comes in and lands or takes off. It
typically will do this over a period of time, and then you
make your land use decisions. So, over time, what's the
-10-02 Jrr
92
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
7Q
21
23
24
25
average noise level in that area? And then they'll make a
derision about it. Okay. Well, is that a 65 contour or a
55 contour? Those kinds of things. And then, typically,
what happens is the F.A.A. has a -- has a chart, and a lot
-- most places use this information, and what it does is, it
gives you information like, for instance, residential, below
65 DNL. Well, that's okay. It says yes; that means
residential is good. And then 65 t.o 70; well, it says no,
but it has a comment down here, it's okay if you require
residential homes in that area to have noise abatement in
them. In other words, additional, you know, thickness on
the glass and, you know, additional insulation. But then
when it gets to 75 to over 85, it just says no. Doesn't
matter how much abatement you do; residential is not
appropriate. So, those are the kind of things that, between
the F.A.A. regulations and what's going to be produced here,
that board will be able to use that information to establish
the zoning with it. I'll share this with you.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. PATTERSON: Take a look at that.
MS. CAFFALL: And there is an opportunity in
that process for public hearings and notification and all
that. It's something that, once we get that back from --
from our consultant, I'll start the process of that.
MR. PATTERSON: But I will tell you that for
~ 1 ii 0 2 drr
43
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
23
24
25
the future of development in that area, this is an important
issue, because once you have the master plan established and
you know what those, you know, impacts might be with regard
to the noise levels, you want to make sure you have the
appropriate zoning there so that you don't get conflicts in
the future. The idea is, you create that zoning district so
that when the development does occur, that it occurs
appropriately. It's either, A, you don't allow certain
uses, or B, that if do you allow that use, that it has
certain noise abatement associated with it. It will save a
lot of grief in the future.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, thank you.
MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you still
anticipate that the fund will be released in August for the
fencing project?
MS. CAFFALL: That's the latest I hear. This
money is set aside. I don't anticipate we won't get it. In
our memo there, I'm not hearing good things about getting an
entitlement next year. The security issues and everything
that's happened with airports in general in the last year
has kind of funneled that money elsewhere.
MR. PATTERSON: We have some food available
for y'all if you want to take a break to do that, or do you
want to press on? What would you like us to do?
i~
44
1
2
3
4
5
ti
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
LO
1
2~
~3
29
~S
JUDGE HENNEKE: Do you want to press on or
eat?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Press on.
MR. PATTERSON: Press on? Okay. All right.
Community Recycling Center. This area has been very active,
and Paul is here to kind of talk to some of this, to tell
you the -- I'm still very impressed by the volume that goes
through this center. I will tell you that there are a lot
of communities in the state of Texas that would kill to have
the kind of volume we get diverted out of our landfill, as
we're doing here. So, I'll let him talk a little bit about
that. Paul?
MR. KNIPPEL: Yeah. We do divert a lot out
of our landfill, and I think it may not even need to be
stated, the importance of the landfill, if you drove around
town in this disaster area this weE=k and saw the mounds of
trash and the available -- we lost our landfill road, or
half of it, for a period of time; we were unable to use the
landfill -- the impact that that had on that area on the
health and sanitation. So, I don't even think it needs to
be said that the landfill's very important to the city of
Kerrville and -- and the county. And -- and, in preserving
the life span of that landfill, the Community Recycling
Center is very important in diverting that base. We had --
we're getting about 30U some-odd cars a day consistently
7-10-C~~ r,r
45
1
~ 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
.^~~
25
from our hours of operation, Wednesday through Saturday.
We had three recycling -- or three special
events scheduled last year and this year, and I think we had
event, the household hazardous collection, and the paint
collection. This -- the number down here is very small
potatoes, as we didn't try to show the whole operations
expense of the recycling center. That's paid for through
the tipping fees collected at the '_andfill, which county
residents pay when they use, haulers pay when they use, city
residents pay when they use. But it kind of serves the
overall solid waste concept by having this recycling center
open and operational. I would like to point something out;
that the City, last year, created another position. We --
Megan had a dual personality for the past few years of
running the landfill and the -- and the airport.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We've known that for
(Laughter.)
MR. KNIPPEL: And so, last year, we -- we
cleaned that up; we hired David Vasquez back there in the
back, who came from -- spent 14 years with Texas Instruments
in their environmental area. So, the landfill and the
i~ _ _
46
1
f--
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
,.., 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
~0
L1
~2
~3
7q
25
recycling center are getting a lot more attention now. And,
you know, I'll use my opportunity here to promote -- we're
working toward getting composting operations where we can
distribute that to the public. We got a real demand for
that right now, particularly from TexDOT using that to
revegetate right-of-ways.
MR. PATTERSON: Te11 them a little bit about
what that process is to be allowed to do that.
MR. KNIPPEL: Yes. We're using the -- the
combination of brush -- chipped up brush and -- and sludge
from our wastewater plant. It's been treated. It's gone
through some of the normal treatment cycle, and then it goes
through temperature and time treatment, which helps take any
other -- of the other things in it that might attract vermin
and so forth, and mice. But you combine that sludge with
the chipped up brush, and it creates something that's a
little bit better than just wood chips; it has tackiness to
it and will hold to these caliche slopes around here. So,
we're pretty -- I'm psyched up about it. I like it, because
we have a real problem every time we open a trench around
here to put a pipeline in. We -- ore can't get anything to
grow on it. And TexDOT is very -- Bill Tucker is about half
an inch away from requiring it on everything in this
right-of-way, and -- whir_h means our community would have to
go outside the r_ity, outside of the county to go buy this

1
3
4
5
6
7
8
A
10
11
12
13
14
I5
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
47
stuff and truck it in. But our landfill is real close to
getting T.N.R.C.C. approval to distribute it, so we're real
jazzed about that. Hopefully this year we'll see that come
online and make it available, not _n small quantities, but
probably truckload-type quantities, to people in
contracting.
But, anyway, all of this kind of works
together. The Community Recycling Center is a -- is shared.
Whereas the landfill is City-owned, the recycling center is
shared with the County. The County owns the land and owns
the buildings that are out there, and the $9,500 that we're
requesting participation from the County is for repairs to
the facility, repairs to the buildings that are owned by the
County. Repairs and expansion. We -- you know, we got 300
cars that begin to stack up out into Schreiner Street.
We're ready to open up another lane. We are getting grant
money for a new baler. We've included in our annual fiscal
budget this year to put a new driveway in, go from two lanes
to three lanes. So, you know, we've --
MR. PATTERSON: This request is a $3,000
reduction, both on the City and the County side, from last
year's.
MR. KNIPPEL: Yes, so we felt justified in
this number.
MR. PATTERSON: Any questions?
°- 1.J-,., ` r,`..,
1
3
4
5
h
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
1G
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
48
JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Paul.
MR. PATTERSON: Thank you. Library
operations. Again, as you well know, we've been spending a
lot of time this last year doing a lot of fixing, especially
the A.D.A. issues, and a lot of that is well underway and
very close to being finished, and I know Antonio will touch
on that in just a minute. But, again, this year, we do --
we do show a steady level with regard to the increase, and
so there is -- I should say there~s none. We've projected
this year based on some of the grants that Antonio has been
able to obtain, and also some of the things that he's
looking at. I'll let him explain a little bit of that to
you. Antonio?
MR. MARTINEZ: Two hours ago, a giant crane
pulled up into the library driveway and downloaded the
roofing material. That's, you know, a very welcome
activity.
MR. BENHAM: Hallelujah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Little bit late,
wasn't it?
MR. MARTINEZ: Yeah. The rains did -- we had
new water coming in in the same locations, known locations,
but a little heavier water coming into the building. So, we
were very concerned about the integrity of the roof --
what's left of the integrity of the roof. But, at any rate,
-l, -~ Tr.
1
..., 2
3
4
5
E
7
8
9
10
11
IG
^. 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
~l
22
~3
24
<5
49
two hours ago a giant crane -- giant semi pulled up, and
they were downloading the material to the roof as I left the
building. That's the last big piece of the renovation of
required there. Handrails for the entryways at the front.
The ramps are going up; they still require a little final
welding and polishing. Elevator requires an inspection
before the rest of the work can be completed, but probably
about 90 percent completed. All the work back at the
90 percent.
So, like I said, the roof is the last cog in
the piece of the puzzle left to complete, and then we'll be
done with this big renovation project; "big" in terms of the
impact it had to traffic, not big in terms of final product.
It's definitely required to move forward in terms of being
able to do anything with that building to capture new space.
As you may recall, that was our big hangup in order to
proceed with anything that expanded public areas; we needed
to come into compliance, not only with A.D.A., but also
safety and zoning and inspection requirements. Any
questions on that part of it?
Like I said, renovation, that part of it, you
know, is jointly funded, City, County, and E.I.C. money.
i_ n.
1
..... 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
~.. 13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
2S
50
We're about to complete that. We are about to complete the
County contribution. But, here again, upon the very verge
of completion, I had the final documents in my hands
requiring the last two payments to complete that project,
and on Friday of last week, went over to the building and
found that we had water damage in there in our brand-new
building. It's not huge, but it's disappointing to see, you
know, the very nice-looking, big reading room that we had
created has a hole in the ceiling and water came in. We've
had the insurance adjuster over there yesterday, walked
through it very carefully, and I have identified a couple of
solutions that, you know, are going to push through.
Basically, what we had was a downspout that
was only about an inch wide that controlled a lot of water
cominq off the gutters and off the roof, and it filled up
with debris, backed up, flowed into the top floor and down
into the bottom floor. Again, that one is almost completed.
We were about to sign off on it, and we still hope to finish
it up, have it ready for opening the new -- new fiscal year,
October 1. There are furnishings to be installed. We've
been pulling wire into it, both telephone and data
communications, setting up for all the computers and other
specialized equipment in that building, and pretty much have
all that planned out as how it will proceed, and we'll try
-1,-__
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
1S
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
'3
24
25
hl
to open October 1. Any questions on that part of it?
You'll recall that last year, we proposed the
new county delivery program. There were some obstacles to
getting that off the tracks. We, :First of all, had some
serious illnesses in the City vehicle preparation
department. Our vehicle was not delivered until around the
end of May. We have been sending out notices to known
residents of those areas. We've talked with a lot of the
residents. The Library Advisory Board took a lot of our
notices out to the areas where they live, the people that
live out in county areas. As you may have seen in last
week's Mountain Sun, we had the arl=icle there describing the
service and asking people to call .in and sign up for the
service. Unfortunately, we're having a very low response on
that so far. We've had a couple o` queries. We've had a
couple of people pick up the notices, but we have so far
only a couple of people there saying they do want the
service. We'll continue to push ii.. We'll continue to
advertise it and try to make something happen with that.
Any questions on that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you advertising
it through the schools?
MR. MARTINEZ: We're going to send out some
additional notices through the schools. We did send some
out with people we knew had children in those schools, but
-ir _ cc
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
ly
20
21
22
23
24
25
52
we'll try to send out some more to the schools.
MR. PATTERSON: Based on when they open the
doors.
MR. MARTINEZ: Right. When they open for the
school year, right.
JUDGE HENNEKE: You might try and see if you
could put a flyer in the Meals on bVheels program out in the
county, because those people also might be very --
MR. MARTINEZ: Sure,
JUDGE HENNEKE: -- prone to use the service.
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes, good idea.
JUDGE HENNEKE: By definition, they can't get
out that well. I think this is something that's really
worthwhile, but it's going to take a while to develop a
constituency and a user base.
MR. MARTINEZ: Right=.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm thrilled we're underway
with it.
MR. PATTERSON: I tkiink it will build.
MR. MARTINEZ: We're not giving up on it, but
the response has been rather disappointing so far. We do
have it posted on our web site, al:>o. And perhaps we could
forward to it your web site also?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Surely.
MR. MAK'1'1NEZ: Post it there.
-iu--- ,-r~;
1
2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
19
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
25
53
JUDGE HENNEKE: Absolutely.
MR. PATTERSON: Get a link. That would be
good.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you have the ability
to track the cost of that program separately?
MR. MARTINEZ: Mm-hrnm, yes. We did come in
under budget on the cost of the vehicle. We were really
surprised at how low the price of t_he vehicle came out. So,
that was a savings. That's one -- one of the reasons we are
showing a fund balance carrying forward from this year.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you hired a
part-time individual yet?
MR. MARTINEZ: Not yet. I've got -- I'm in
conference with our Human Resources Department developing
the evaluation and the -- all the different things that qo
into that position, but we're ready to go deliver, if it
comes down to that. I mean, we can --
MR. PATTERSON: Current staff's handling it
right now.
MR. MARTINEZ: With current staff, we can go
ahead and deliver if we do get people that are solidly, you
know, desiring the service.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAC9S: I'm just wondering
about the advertising, if it gave an anticipated start date
when the service is going to begin.

54
1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. MARTINEZ: What we did is we asked people
to go ahead and tell us they wanted the service, and then we
would contact them to establish when they wanted to start.
So, it's open to start whenever the individual desires. As
of this moment, we could, you know, go ahead and go deliver
to someone if they so desired.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAP9S: A lot of times when
people see the service has begun, 1_hey see the van parked in
those locations, that triggers their desire to participate.
MR. MARTINEZ: Righi_. Well, like I said,
we've only had one response saying, "Yes, I do want service"
so far. Anything else on current or previous programs?
I'll go ahead to the proposed new programs. Little bit of
history on automated library systern. The cost you see
there, $150,000, we have in-hand a very extensive study by
an automation consultant. The Friends of the Library funded
that, and there are quite a few formulas that are used to
figure out the size of a new systern. One of them is that
for every user -- every concurrent user that you have on
this system, your cost is about $3,500. We're designing the
system to support approximately 43 concurrent users, which
would be more than twice the current number. Our present
system's limited to only so many concurrent users, and this
would more than double our ability to support concurrent
users or people tapping into that automated system in any

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
~' 3
24
25
55
shape or form, including staff and public.
We did apply for a very large grant together
with Schreiner University. We did get approval on that
grant, and I'm counting on part of that money to pay part of
the hardware costs for this system. That would give us --
the configuration we're going for is called a client server
architecture. And we can probably buy 70, 80 percent of the
client server stations required fo:r that configuration using
some of that grant money. We have other donations, other
grant moneys that would basically pay for most -- probably
95 percent of the hardware costs of any automated system,
leaving only the software licensing and software maintenance
issues to cover. Due to the fund balance we are r_arrying,
this shows a net zero contribution from either City or
County. We can pay with existing money for the system. I
don't think --
MR. PATTERSON: Tha= includes the grant money
and the trade-in that --
MR. MARTINEZ: Whatever trade-in ability we
have, right. Actually, it's a discount more than a
trade-in. You know, I call it trade-in, but, I mean, there
is a value to the existing system, and that value would
disappear shortly.
MR. PATTERSON: The current -- the current
system, as you well know, when you buy software systems, you

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
25
56
know, a company will support it fox' so many years and then
they stop the support. That's what's about to happen here.
And it will be -- I mean, if it breaks, we just don't have
anybody to service it.
MR. MARTINEZ: Currently, we're very popular
with automation vendors. I get at least one call a week,
sometimes two or three, and they're all wanting to offer us
deals that we wouldn't get if the system were already phased
out. That's the discount or the trade-in value that I see
in it.
MR. WAMPLER: What would be the ongoing
license costs of the software license?
MR. MARTINEZ: No higher than present. It
would be appro:~imately what we're paying right now, in the
neighborhood of $27,000 a year, when you add up all the
different components.
MR. WAMPLER: Even f.or a double number of
stations?
MR. MARTINEZ: Right. These would be easier
to maintain.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. PATTERSON: You have lower hardware
costs, and also you have more access to the software through
that system, versus where it used to be. In the older
system, you have basically a piece of software for each one.

1
.-~.
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
lft
19
20
21
-, ,
23
24
-~
~J
57
That's not the case any more.
MR. MARTINEZ
is, to us, a fairly small adjustment, recognizing the added
responsibilities that have developed for a position at the
library where we have a person running a major division of
the library, and currently that person was at 30 hours.
She's announced her retirement -- she's actually retired
now, and it would be next to impossible to find a 30-hour
librarian to run that complex an operation for the library,
and so we ask for an adjustment to make that a full-time
position to recognize the level of responsibility involved,
and to have that person come on board as a -- as a
full-timer, rather than a part-timE=. person.
MR. PATTERSON: We also looked at -- whenever
we look at positions, we also -- we do an examination of,
you know, how much overtime hours are having to be worked to
cover, you know, what -- how many F.T.E.'s are you talking,
and with the volume that's going through the library and the
number of hours worked, total employee force, we felt like
this did justify itself. So, that's the reason.
MR. MARTINEZ: Very briefly, to touch on
volume, at work Saturday and Sunday, the combined gate count
for this past Saturday and Sunday was 850 people. And, you
know, the people did not stay away from the library during
~~ ~ _ T ~ '
58
1
7
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Z4
25
the flooding. We had the same or higher numbers, actually,
during the flooding. So, we just continue to see huge
turnout and use of all services. Any other questions?
That's pretty much it for us.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Antonio, Joe appeared
before the Commissioners Court today on behalf of the
Friends of the Library and did a wonderful job. I had a
question for him, and I really didn't take it as far as I
wanted to, so I'd like to ask you.
MR. MARTINEZ: 0};ay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We were talking about
your librarians being great and how educated they are.
MR. MARTINEZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I really want to go a
step further. How many have Master.'s degrees?
MR. MARTINEZ: Let me think. Six or seven.
Let's see, let me do a head count. One, two, three, four --
five have degrees, and one works in a position that would
normally require a degree. So, we have six people that
should be; one is not.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know of
another operation in town like that. That's fantastic.
MR. MARTINEZ: Quite frankly, where we're
hurting right now is lack of clerical help. You know, we're
doing pretty good at the librarian level, but since we do
1 ',', .. J'~ C
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
-~ ,
23
24
25
59
have so many specialized areas, we do need those librarians,
but clerical help is where we're hurting.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you.
MR. MARTINEZ: Mm-hmm.
MAYOR FINE: Joe has something to add to
that.
MR. BENHAM: I thank you. Former mayor told
me earlier today that citizen inpuY_ on a budget around here
is almost unheard of, so I hope you'll allow this citizen to
say something. I don't want to duplicate anything Antonio
said. I'm -- for the record, since she's copying this down,
I'm Joe Benham. I'm president of the Friends of the
Library. We are very supportive of Antonio. We think we're
extremely fortunate to have a man of his capability and
qualifications. We're very apprec_ative of his staff. We
do have two concerns that I would like to share with you and
urge you to take into consideration, both this year and in
years to come. One he's alluded to is the personnel area.
Folks, these people are working themselves to death over
there. There are lines morning, noon, and night in that
library of people waiting to check out books. There are
lines at the reference desk, and we had a big -- took a big
hit when Herb, our veteran reference librarian, left. And
last time I talked to Antonio about it, we were having some
trouble finding the capability of reference librarian that
-~ „-n Try
1
3
4
5
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
z3
24
25
60
we need.
As you probably know, there is a nationwide
shortage of librarians, and the lativ of supply and demand
applies in Kerrville just like it does anywhere else. We --
we are very concerned. We know of people who had -- who had
not planned to leave as early as they are who are simply
burned out. Antonio has shared with us -- and I don't want
to be an alarmist, but Antonio has shared with us that if
the departures continue and if qualified replacements are
not found, we may be looking at curtailing the evening hours
of the library. This is a particular concern -- well, it's
a concern for everybody, but it's a particular concern for
people who live out in the county, 'cause they start down to
the center of town when they get off work at 5 o'clock, and
if the library's going to close at 6:00, that doesn't give
them much time to get their work done at the library. We're
also concerned, certainly, about the accessibility of the
library for students. Antonio's done a great job of
juggling personnel and hours and keepinq the library open on
nights and Sundays. The library I worked with before I
moved up here was open one night a week and was not open on
Sundays, and there were a lot of unhappy patrons about that.
But Antonio's managed to do it up to now, but he can't keep
the library open, obviously, if he doesn't have the
personnel.
- _ ~_
61
1
,... 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
10
11
12
,,.. 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
2q
.-.
25
The other area is the automation system,
which he referred to. The Friends of the Library are
funding that study. We've allocated $9,000 for that; it
isn't costing the taxpayers of either the city or county a
penny. But, that -- the results of that survey, as he's
very extensive upgrade of our automation system. Antonio's
indicated he thinks that grants and some other funds that we
get, some bequests and that sort of thing, may cover it, and
I hope he's right. But if they don't, we really urge you to
find the money, because the most recent figures I have, we
had 150,000 visits to that library last year. That's
considerably more than the population of Kerr County. We
circulated 200,000 units of books and periodicals and so
forth. 't'here were 25,000 telephone requests. Those
reference lines are busy all the time, with people calling
up and asking for information over the phone, and a 1980's
vintage information system simply isn't going to meet the
needs for that -- that kind of traffic. So, if Antonio has
to come to you and say, "I've got to have more money,
because those grants weren't enough to pay for what we have
to have," I sincerely hope you'll be able -- and our board
and our membership certainly hope you'll be able to do that.
I'll take just one more minute of your time,
if you'll allow me, and point out that we, the Friends of
i~-o~ s
1
... 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
A
10
11
I L
,-, 1 3
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
r 24
~5
62
the Library, are putting our money where our mouth is. In
addition to the $9,000 that I mentioned, we -- excuse me --
we routinely donate $20,000 a year to the library to cover
things like the large-print book purchases, which are a very
big item, given the demographics of this community. There
are a lot of us old people who don't see as well as they
once did. We fund the reading program, which is primarily
for children in the summer, the Discover lectures, and the
-- give Antonio some leeway in buying whatever he has to
have for the library that he can pay for out of what's left
of that $20,000.
Our biggest accomp Lshment, as you probably
know, in recent years, we raised $351,000 from -- primarily
from foundations, and we contributed $9,000 of our own money
over and above the $20,000 routine contribution to purchase
the building next door to the library for future expansion.
So, the community is -- we are doing everything we can to
support this library, but our funds aren't unlimited any
more than yours are. So, we simply ask that when Antonio
does come to you and says I've got to have more money to do
the things that will keep this library up to the
tremendously high standards that it has had, that you will
be able to support those requests. And we will continue to
do everything we can as a private organization to support
the library. I'm grateful for your time. If I can answer
s,
1
L
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
l~
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
~0
21
~,
l~
24
25
63
any questions you may have about what we do or why we feel
the library is so terribly important to this community and
this county, I'll be happy to try to do it. Thank you very
much.
JDDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Joe.
MAYOR FINE: Thank you, Joe.
MR. PATTERSON: Thanks.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Before we move on,
Judge, I'd like to ask Ron what -- just sort of an
expression or two about Point Number 3 on the new program.
Joe gave us a pretty good segue into that.
MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. One of the things
that we are doing is -- as you well know, there was a study
done on the library that was interesting.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To say the least.
MR. PATTERSON: To say the least. One of the
things that we're in the process of doing is dusting that
thing off, you know, and making sure -- first of all, there
-- some of the information, quite frankly, needs to be
updated. Some of it needs to be corrected, especially in
light of some of the revisions that have happened here
recently, A.D.A. and those kind of things. But even beyond
that, there's some things in there that need to be reworked.
One of the things that we want to do is take a hard look at
what would it take to add actual floor space? Not -- not --
64
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
~l
~~
23
29
25
you know, we had to get over the A.D.A, hump and all that,
but we're talking about actually bookshelf space. What
would it take to be able to do that? And that's part of
what we would like to be able to do this year, is focus on
that and to do that.
One of the things that we would also have to
do in that process is to take a look at that whole area.
When I say "that area," I mean the library to the history
center and everything in between, and all the way back, how
that area might best be used. And that -- that ranges from,
you know, what -- a plan. The bottom line is to come up
with a master plan for that whole area, now that the
building is owned, you know, by the City and -- and it was
purchased by the -- you know, with the Friends' money and
others. I mean, bottom line is -- is that we need to figure
out what is the game plan for that and what kind of
expansions or what kind of changes need to occur to be able
to service the area. So, that's what we're talking about
with that item, sir. That's going to be a lot of work.
Does that answer the question, sir?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. Yes,
thank you very much.
MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir.
MR. MARTINEZ: Could I add one more thing,
Ron?
-in-n. n:c
1
2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
1/
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
65
MR. PATTERSON: Yes.
MR. MARTINEZ: In relation to that question,
I've just identified a state grant program; it just came --
just came to my attention. I'm going to investigate that
for the possibility of paying for a facilities study. This
state program will fund historic community building
renovations for expansions or so forth. I think we have
that qualification.
MR. PATTERSON: Oh, yeah, possible. That
would be great. Any other questions on the library before
we move on?
Okay. Animal Control and Tax Collection.
Again, the Animal Control function is managed primarily by
the County, and it's something that they have some kind of
an agreement with the City. And, according to that
agreement, it is a pro rata basis based on percent of the
shelter operation costs. That is actually, then, funded
through the City through that -- that particular -- that
particular participation calculation. Say that three times
fast.
(Laughter.)
MR. PATTERSON: Thee is a request for an
increase there this year, and that is on the operations
side -- I apologize, I should have left this open here -- in
that area. There is a -- there is a change there of about
~-in-n rc~~
1
~„ 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
~. 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
2 1
~~
23
24
25
66
$4,200 additional charges. Overall, in the budget there,
you'll see -- if you look on that Section 2, it shows that
there is a -- a $27,000 reduction on the County side;
however, what that is, is that last year there was a capital
purchase made that was in that budget, and it's not there
this year. I believe it was a tru.k; is that right?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAIKS: That's right.
MR. PATTERSON: So that's the difference
in terms of the operational perspective on -- on the County
side there. Again, we -- we've looked through that, and
this is the total budget, then, you know, when you put that
together for that operation. I don't know if there is any
other revenue sources there from oi_her agencies, but the
bottom line is, that is the budget, and then this would be
the portion appropriated to the Cit=y with the Animal Shelter
operations.
On the tax collection, that is a very
straightforward calculation with regard to -- we use a
calculation; it's 1 percent of tax revenues collected. I
mean, it's very straightforward. And this number, there is
no change proposed to the percent in the calculation.
However, obviously, it's going to qo up, both City and
County, with regard to -- you know, if the tax values go up,
we'll pay a little bit more, 'cause it's based on that
-_ ~- _ ,
67
1
z
3
4
5
E
7
S
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
~0
L1
22
23
~4
25
value. And I jumped through those really quick, but are
there any questions on either one of those?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Not from us.
MR. PATTEF,SON: Okay. Potential new
programs, future considerations, those type things, I can
kind of touch on.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Ron?
MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir?
JUDGE HENNEKE: The Mayor and I would like to
suggest that we go in -- I don't know if you plan to bring
the food in, or perhaps we'd qo and get a plate and come
back and --
MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, that's the way we
had i*_ set up.
JUDGE HENNEKE: And talk about potential new
programs as we eat.
MR. PATTERSON: Great, Sounds wonderful.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Why don't we take a break at
this time and go fill our plates and come back and take our
places, and we'll push through the new programs.
MR. PATTERSON: Sounds great.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Recess taken from 5:32 p.m. to 5:45 p.m.)
JUDGE HENNEKE: Ron?
MAYOR FINE: Ready to crank it up?
-ic _ J
68
1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
1/
18
ly
20
Ll
~~
G ~
23
29
25
MR. PATTERSON: Oh, okay.
MAYOR FINE: Are you going to eat?
MR. PATTERSON: After we get done.
MAYOR FINE: Okay.
MR. PATTERSON: I got one in there,
squirreled one away.
MAYOR FINE: All right.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. PATTERSON: Last -- actually, this --
actually, the first two there we actually started talking
about last year, and quite frankly, they kind of -- they
kind of fizzled on us. As far as 1_he municipal court, we
picked that up and started looking at it, and let me kind of
explain what we're talking about hc=re so everybody
understands, a refresher. There was the discussion about
the potential of the -- of possibly taking the -- the
municipal operation and somehow corlbining that into the
county court system. You know, and we kind of looked at it
from different ways, and, quite frankly, it -- it really
doesn't work as a partial thing. You know, it -- it's one
of those things that, if you don't jump in it with both
feet, it probably won't work. Do you know what I mean?
With -- with the departure of our City Attorney and -- and
other issues, quite frankly, it did not get analyzed very
well, to be very honest with you. This is one of the things
-1,~-, _ ,r~.c
69
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
1S
16
17
18
19
20
~I
22
~3
24
~5
that -- that was put back on here to -- to talk about just
one more time to make sure that the=_ interest was still
there.
I can tell you, from a staff perspective, the
interest is still there about looking at it, you know, and
taking a hard look at it. I know ghat we -- we currently
still have a -- where'd he go? Anyway -- he's gone. We
currently have an interim City Attorney, and we're in the
process of bringing someone on board full-time, and, you
know, we'll be doing that here shortly. But once that
happens, I would like to go ahead and take another run at
looking at this, and so I'll just open that up for
discussion.
COMMISSIONER BAhDWIN: A great man once said,
"What problem would that fix?" And that is -- that is the
question that I would have from -- for the County's side.
If we was to take -- take that -- take that over and put it
in the County system, what problem would that fix for us?
Personally, I don't see any, but --- it's a question.
MR. PATTERSON: Sure. To be very frank with
you, I -- I think the big fix, in terms of being able to
handle the load, you know, we -- the City would benefit,
obviously, to be very frank with you, about the ability to
be able to have that operation in one location. But, in
addition to that, 1 think the other thing is -- is that with
-ic-~_ Tce
~o
1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
lb
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
regard to -- to citations, with regard to any type of court
action, with regard to whether -- again, whether it's a
prosecution of any kind of court case, whether, you know, it
would be a Class C misdemeanor or whatever, we'd have one
central location for all of our judicial system within the
county. And, you know, again, we know that, you know,
within the county, we probably -- along with the County, if
you put us together, we probably have the most case load.
And if you look at the rest of the county between Ingram and
Center Point, et cetera, it would be a place where we could
combine all of that effort. I mean, again, I -- the other
thing that I think it would also do is, in terms of -- with
the citizens, they would know there's just one place to go
to take care of all of that business. Whether you're paying
a citation or D.P.S., you know, writes you, or if it's --
you know, Sheriff writes you or City writes you, you have
one place to go to get that service.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIPI: Well, I have to admit,
these guys let me be the hall monitor of the courthouse on
o~~casion, and a lot of our traffic are people looking for
your municipal court.
MR. DICKERSON: 'Cause people go to the
courthouse looking for a court.
JUDGE HENNEKE: It's really a -- it doesn't
solve a problem for the County, because we don't have a
~--o-n~ ~1~~~
1
~.., 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
P
10
11
1L
13
14
IJ
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
•'-
25
71
problem with	the	City's	municipal	court operation,
obviously.	It --	if it'	s able to	be accomplished, it
benefits the citizens of Kerr County. And, indirectly,
it -- it aids some of our County employees, the J.P.'s in
particular, and their clerks. And right now our J.P.'s, on
their rotation, they magistrate all of the city cases.
Every -- every citizen that's arrested by a City of
Kerrville police person, and that's approximately half of
trie arrests a year, gets magistrated by one of our four
J.P.'s. The municipal judge does not take a turn at
magistratinq. He does not take a turn in the rotation
during inquests and things like that, does not get called
out in the middle of the night to magistrate. The J.P.'s
would expect to be compensated for additional work that they
take on. 1 think the J.P.'s have the time to take on the
additional work if they decide to. This is obviously
something they'd have to sign up to, but it would be an
opportunity for them to get -- to certainly get compensated
for services that are already provided. One thing that we
do well is courts. We have eight of them in Kerr County,
not counting the two municipal courts, so while it may not
solve directly a burning problem for the County, it
certainly is a benefit to the citizens of Kerr County
overall, and is also an avenue whez.eby some of our elected
officials can get compensated for services that they're

1
3
9
5
ti
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
l~
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
Z3
24
25
72
already providing right now.
MS. SULLIVAN: It also frees up some --
MR. PATTERSON: And on the -- on the City
side, that it also takes us -- that complete court operation
out of the building where it is right now.
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes.
MR. PATTERSON: We':re racking and stacking.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see that.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It seems to me that --
and I share some of Commissioner Baldwin's concerns about,
you know, let's make sure we know what we're fixing before
we fix it. But -- but I think there's -- there's probably
some merit, enough merit to it, that -- that this is one of
those things that probably is an ideal issue to be addressed
by some kind of joint task force, because it obviously is
going to take legal minds on making sure we do it correctly
in the legal sense. It needs a lit=tle budgetary work on who
would pay who and how do you allocate costs and all that
kind of thing.
MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And we probably can't
answer that here tonight, obviously, but it's something that
perhaps some kind of task force made up of those kinds of
people, budgetary and -- and admin_strative and legal, could
sit down and probably work out something pretty quick. At
73
1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~,
23
24
~5
least come up with some options and see what it would do to
costs for all the entities involved and so on, and come back
to this forum, perhaps, for further discussion. But I
just -- I think we need to know more about it. But it's
obviously got some very good points to it that have already
been touched on.
MR. PATTERSON: I believe if we could
commission that group -- and, again, we can do that off-line
from here, but get that going so that -- you know, we're
trying to do these meetings twice a year now, so that by
that next meeting, which is our off -- quote, unquote --
budget meeting, that we ~~ould have those discussions, get
ready for it, so that when the budget rolls around, we could
step right -- you know, step right into it and be prepared
to do that. Okay.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Be good to have a J.P.
sit on it.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah.
MAYOR FINE: The primary thing is if the
J.P.'s are willing to do it. That comes first.
(Discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But I just think that
that's an ideal thing, for some kind of joint task force
type approach to come up with that.
MR. PATTERSON: We will work with you to try
-io-,,. .7cr
1
•~~ G
3
4
5
ti
7
8
9
10
11
12
~- 13
14
15
16
17
lft
ly
20
~l
22
~3
~,,,, 2 9
25
74
and formulate who there should be and who should sit on it.
We'll jointly make that decision and get that put together.
DODGE HENNEKE: Okay, that's good.
MR. PATTERSON: Oka'/. The other issue is --
The other issue is
got to have, you know, a single point of review, and -- when
we're talking about County and City, et cetera. The
interesting point of that, after reviewing it, is there is
no penalty provisions right now, so that's good news,
because otherwise we would be getting penalties. The -- the
thing of it is -- is that right nova, we are -- as you well
-- you may be aware, last night the Council adopted the
Comprehensive Master Plan, so that portion of that is now
done. Right now, what we're doing as well is we're spinning
up the second phase of that project, which is rewriting our
coning regulations and our zoning ordinance and our
subdivision regulations. That is going to be a key element,
with what the County has in making sure that all of our
regulations match up so that we can make this process happen
properly.
Talking with Tim Doan, who is working with
our consultant who's helping us with that, what we would
~ i ~~
75
1
^. 2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
,.~ 13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
.-~
like	to be able to	do	is -	- you know, County	Engineer	and
other	individuals	that	we	can work with and	talk with	about
that one's not going off course from the other. Yes, sir?
JODGE HENNEKE: Well, you all can have
separate zoning requirements in the ETJ than you do in the
city; they don't have to be the same. After our meeting in
January, Franklin Johnston, our engineer, and Tim sat down
and started going through the two sets of regulations, your
current ETJ regulations and our county regulations, and were
making good progress. And as the Plaster Plan ramped up,
rightfully, it was decided to suspend that effort until you
all redid your zoning regulations. ender the law, there are
four options. One, the County can do it all, which is not
acceptable	to	you	all. Number	two	is the City can	do	it
all, which	is	not	acceptable to	us.	We can divide	it	up
a -- a common set of zoning regulations that both bodies
agree on that are approved by the single, one-stop shop,
which is what we're in the process of -- of developing with
ingram, and we're actually fairly far along with that. The
fourth option clearly is where we would like to go.
25 ~ So, you know, as you all do your zoning
-1r- c:~-
1
.~. -
3
4
5
E
7
8
y
10
11
12
r„ 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
.--, 2 5
76
regulations, the ones that we're concerned with are the ETJ
ones. And, you know, as I expressed in January, our
principal concern there is roads, drainage, and the water
availability. Your street requirements are different than
ours. If -- if your street requirements are the
requirements in the ETJ, they include curbs and gutters, but
the County could end up having to maintain a road with curbs
and gutters, where we don't require that out in the county,
simply because the developer in thf= ETJ can put in the plat
that the road is to be County-maintained, and, if approved
that way, then we would have the rE=_sponsibility for it. So
I don't think it's a complicated process, but it's a process
that is going to take a little -- :Little massaging.
MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, 'cause those issues
that you talked about are exactly the ones that I think Tim
and the engineer were talking about=. Those are the first
ones that popped up, you know, trying to come into that
commonality of, you know, what is the standard going to be,
and, you know, establishing that. Like I said, that would
be -- that will be the part where we have to come up with
that, figure out which way it's going to -- going to go.
And, again, as you said, that process started, but kind of
took a step back. What I'm saying now is -- is that now
they need to step bark into it, because that -- it's time
now that we're at this point, and this is the appropriate
-. ~-~,~ ~TC,
1
2
3
4
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
L c
23
24
;' 5
~~
time to get that going again.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You never know, the
next Legislature may put some penalties on -- in that law.
Hope they don't make it retroactive=.
MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, no kidding. I don't --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Can't put ex post
facto on us.
MR. PATTERSON: I'll write myself a note here
real quick.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the timetable on
the rewrite of the zoning ordinances and subdivision rules?
MR. PATTERSON: We1.1, I know the Planning
Department would like to have it done, you know, sometime by
Christmas. I'll be surprised if we get it done by then. I
think it's -- you know, I think we might be able to, but
with everything else that's going on, you know, I'm not
quite sure. But that was the time frame that they were
shooting for.
MAYOR FINE: The City Attorney, when he gets
here, that's probably going to be his first major task.
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes.
MAYOR FINE: And I'rn not saying that slows it
down, but it was kind of inconvenient. We tried to talk
Kevin into stayinq for a few months and finishing it.
MS. SULLIVAN: Yes, we did.
- ~ ~s
1
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
2L
23
24
25
~s
MAYOR. FINE: You know, that's -- that is one
of the delays right now also.
MS. SOLLIVAN: Right.
MAYOR FINE: Mike would be great -- I mean,
Mike would be very capable of handling it, but I think, you
know, we're going to hold off, and when the City Attorney
walks in the door, that will be hiss -- his first major task,
I guess, if that's way to put it.
MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, Mike is working with
the consultants right now on getting the program set up and
the best way to do that and how the=_ information's going to
flow, but the actual wordsmithing 2,art of it has not started
yet. Right now, other than the -- the process, the other
piece that's being analyzed right now is going through the
detailed analysis of what's on the books today. You got to
figure out where you are so you can figure out where to go,
and that's what we're doing at this point in time, 'cause
there's not -- in addition to all of this, trying to
coordinate this, we've also got all the issues with regard
to making sure that all the holes cae've got -- you know, we
plug all the holes and that it all matches up with the
comprehensive plan within the rewrite. So, that's a very,
very detailed process, and that's going to take a while.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ron kind of related to
that, but even more so, I know the comprehensive plan has a
-i ~- _ 1~_
1
/~ L
3
4
5
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
,.~ 13
14
l5
15
17
18
ly
~0
21
22
23
,,,,~ 2 4
25
79
lot of, I guess, recommendations of things to happen, such
as, you know, there's going to be transportation -- there's
a recommendation to form a committee of County and City and
TexDOT to look at master road plans, things of that nature.
How is the City planning to go through the master plan, find
all that stuff that involves the County, and come to the
County and see what we want to do?
MR. PATTERSON: Right. Well, there's two --
two pieces to that. One is, the Council is looking at
developing an implementation committee who's going to review
and look at that and monitor it and see how we're
progressing. I will say that, you know, going ahead and
funding and getting this rewrite done is one big step toward
that. But also, in addition to that, as part of this
process where they're looking at tl~e implementation
committee part of it, what the sta:Ef is going to be doing is
pulling out, you know, pieces of --- you know, here's
basically an action plan. You know, our -- we've got the
document now; here's what we've got to do. What makes
sense? First, second, third, fourth, that kind of thing,
and we'll be presenting that.
That will also entail identifying the
agencies that we need to coordinate with, because there's
also -- in that same document with the County, it also
speaks to, you know, the hospital caith some issues. It also
~__ ~-r~~ ,1-
80
1
i
9
5
6
7
8
P
10
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
talks about, like, with Dietert Claim and things like that.
So, we've got to pull all of that together. That won't take
us very long, but -- but, again, we -- we were being very
careful not to try and get the cart in front of the horse to
say, "Well, here's a document. Oh, by the way, we already
knew it was going to be so-and-so." But -- you know, but
we're -- that is being worked on, and we will be making
those contacts. It may be a littlE=_ bit -- it won't be,
like, in a couple weeks, but within the next couple months.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. PATTERSUN: And the implementation
committee that the Council spoke about last night, that will
happen probably -- probably that will be formed prior even
to all of that coming together, 'cause that committee needs
Lo be a part of that. Does that make sense"?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, thank you.
MR. PATTERSON: Okav. Okay. Exhibition
Center. I know that the County ha:> been working on some new
and revised plans and some new ideas. 1 know that there was
a meeting -- was it a month ago nova? I'm losing track of
time. May have been two months ago now. There was a
revised plan that was discussed about the issue of the Ag
Barn and ati Exhibition Center, I think., or exhibit center,
kind of how that was formed -- or exhibit-slash-conference
center. And out of that meeting, ]: know there was some

1
~- 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
~3
24
..~
Z5
81
discussion about potential of participation and those type
things, and the mayor had asked that we begin to take a look
at, you know, crunching numbers and those kinds of things
and looking at it. But I wanted -- I thought that -- and I
think y'a11 thought it was important to put this on here so
additional direction. So, with that, I'll open it back up.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we've progressed since
that meeting, but we haven't come to any final decision. I
think the -- the schedule is to try to have another very
serious go at that on the 22nd. Jonathan, is that --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hopefully the 22nd. But
as every day goes by, more meetings take place, that date
looks harder and harder to meet. But, anyway, I think we're
close, and I think the plan that I think Commissioner
Williams and I will be presenting to the Court is going to
be similar to what was presented last time. The idea is
that there's going to be a -- a remodel; basically take down
the old hog barn area, put a new -- a new barn there,
upgrade the other barn areas. And then, on that same
property, but not necessarily -- but not connected, would be
an exhibit hall area that's going to probably be about the
size of the current exhibit hall. The idea is that that
meets the	County's	needs,	period.	If the	City --	and
hopefully	the City	will do	this --	wants	-- looks	at this
to-_~ __
1
~~ G
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
~l
L [~
23
~4
,--.
~5
sz
and says, this is an opportunity for the -- to get a
convention -- small convention center-type building, exhibit
hall, whatever you want to call the building, the City could
participate and add on to what the County is going to, you
know, have, and get a facility that is much -- you know,
much -- I guess more uses available to the community. But I
think the plan that I see coming out of the Court, really,
right now is more a replacing and upgrading of what we have
there, and hopefully the City can then come in and, if they
so choose, and through E.I.C. or whatever other mechanisms
are -- E.I.C. is a separate entity, I understand -- you
know, build a facility that's, you know, 30,000 to 35,000,
40,000 square feet, something in that area. And that's kind
of where we are.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think the important
thing that I think we need to impart to the City Council is
that our discussions have taken us a long -- a long route to
get to this point, but the point is that we finally
concluded that it would be beneficial, we believe, to
separate agricultural/animal activities from people
activities. And the new, revised plan does that. We -- we
congregate or segregate those things that are related to
agriculture, Youth -- Hill Country Youth District Livestock
Show, goat sales, whatever, in facilities that they need to
do what they need to do, and give them plenty of room for
i _ r~.
83
1
,.~ 2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
.-. 13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
~-.
25
growth. And, at the same time, then we deal with community
same grounds, but separated by a significant distance, so
that the two just don't meet. You know, we -- I think we've
overcome some of the objections that we've heard in the past
about the combination of activities under one roof. I
think, if our big master plan before had a drawback, it was
that it had everything almost under one roof. So, by
separating these things, I think we -- we have at least made
an attempt to overcome one of the obstacles that -- that
members of the City Council had registered in the past, and
quite justifiably.
And what it also does, in this plan -- and if
the City joins us, it would even be more effective -- it
provides a venue for events that almost double the size
that -- that -- which has a capability in the city of
Kerrville right now. The last of the venues that we all
know about that is rented out is the K.C. Hall. I think as
of July 1, they're not accepting any more contracts for
activities there, because that venue is closing down and
going into private enterprise. C.V.B., I know, has told
you, because they told us, that that really poses a
significant problem, and so if we're going to deal with
this, and hopefully we can figure out a way to deal with it
together, we should be thinking about how we can provide a

1
.-.
3
4
5
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
.-. 1 3
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
~3
29
84
really Class-A facility for the people of Kerr County, the
significant proportions.
When you consider that you can only seat 500
people in a banquet in this town right now in either of the
two main venues that you have -- hotels, essentially -- that
is a limiter, and it's a very limiting factor in terms of
what ran be brought to this town. And there is significant
economic impact from things that are brought into this town.
So, I think we've taken a very measured and direct step in
the right direction in the revised plan that we're going to
try to finalize with our Court. We'd welcome your
participation.
MAYOR FINE: I think the City -- from my
perspective, anyway, it was more a feeling, what with the
new plan you guys came up with -- the other plan that was
mainly focused on ag just was not something that the City
participated in; it wasn't in the past. It's not that we're
not interested in it. It's just you guys had the Exhibition
Center. Y'a11 did the -- y'all did the ag; we did the golf,
you know. And -- and -- but when .it came down to, like,
what Bill was saying, with the -- the Knights of Columbus
Ha11 changing hands and that facility no longer being
15 I available -- being available, that was, I guess, the largest
- __-o~
85
1
7
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
zl
22
23
24
25
facility of its size around, and it was very -- very
limiting. But -- and it makes sense to put something in
place where you've already got parking, you've already
got -- the land cost is there. I mean, parking lots aren't
cheap. You put them in once, but, you know, there's
maintenance, and it makes sense to have it near some other
type of facility.
We don't have room down there by the
Municipal Auditorium to put it in. Otherwise, I mean, that
would be a great spot. There's nog enough parking down
there either, but it just made sense to do something along
that line out there. But it needed to be something, in my
personal opinion, that was separate from the ag -- I mean,
I've been to events out there in the Ag Barn, and, you know,
you end up chewing on dust as much as you do food. I'm not
cutting anybody down; I'm just being realistic. You know,
that's what it is. And, you know, if you're going to have a
facility that's going to be attractive to people, you can't
show, you know, chickens and hogs and goats in it one day
and expect people to come out there in a coat and tie the
next night; it just wouldn't work.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But just so you know -- I
know some of the press is here -- that the County's proposal
is still primarily ag.
MAYOR r'1 NE: 1 --

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
ly
20
~1
22
?3
29
~5
86
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- I know you know,
but just so everyone else is clear, it's an ag proposal with
a component that can be added onto by the City which is not
ag.
MAYOR FINE: But it would also increase your
ag value, too. Because --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure.
MAYOR FINE: -- you could bring in bigger
events and -- you know, and the people who come to the ag
events probably get tired of chewing on the dust with their
barbecue, too.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The exhibit hall could
certainly be used for an ag-type function. It's not like
they're totally mutually exclusive. Just -- it's just that
they can be used -- separated. We're keeping the pigs away
from the diners or the exhibiters or whatever.
MAYOR FINE: That's preferable.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Assuming you don't have
pigs that are eating.
(Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not going to make
any comments on that. Totally out of this conversation.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we're going to -- you
know, right now, where we are, we'r.e getting some of the
revised costs. And 1 need to get with you or give you kind
-io-u~ .i~_~
1
3
9
5
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
~5
b7
of the -- the metal frame construction -- give you the
parameters so you can see, at least, you know, where we are
on costs, 'cause it's basically going to be per square foot.
I mean, if you go from 15,000 foot to 25,000 foot, you just
basically add square footage cost to it.
MR. PATTERSON: What; would be helpful to do
the economic impact statement, as well as the cost analysis,
it would be helpful to know a per-square-foot price, and
also what -- what amenities are proposed within that price.
You know, are you talking about a full-service kitchen? Are
you talking about a stage that has full lighting and sound
system? You know, that kind of information is important,
because whenever you've got a convention renter, that
information is real important.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. PATTERSON: It's also beneficial to know
what kind of business -- what kind of businesses and events
you can attract. So, that helps --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll give --
MR. PATTERSON: -- in terms of the economic
impact analysis.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm in the process of
developinq a list of what I think basically meets the needs
of the County right now, and then what would be -- then you
could look at that and figure out what needs to be added to
-i~,-~ ~ s
1
2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
23
24
zs
88
that to get what the -- you know, for the City to
participate, what else would have to be added to that;
whether it's square footage, whether it's a sound stage,
whether it's, you know, kitchen, whatever it is. I mean,
we'll give you the components, 'cause I see right now
basically duplicating the exhibit hall in a better facility,
the current exhibit hall. And I don't see a big,
full-service kitchen, and I don't see a stage. I see an
area that you can serve -- basically do the same thing you
do right now, but it being in a -- in a structure that could
be expanded, if the City chooses to participate, to add
things that the City needs or feels that should be in a
convention center. I think you can mesh the two.
They're -- basically, they're very similar uses; just add a
few components.
MR. PATTERSON: Just a point of clarification
for me, somebody, when I start crunching numbers. The
proposal would be -- is there would be a base -- base
structure of some sort proposed that the County would
participate in, and anything added --
JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, the County's going to
build basically what we have now, which is approximately
13,600 square feet, with some food preparation and service
capability.
MR. PATTERSON: Okay. And that's in -- but

1
2
4
5
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
~l
22
23
29
25
89
that's in a separate building.
JODGE HENNEKE: Yeah, that's going to be in a
separate building. The question is, the C.V.B. told us that
they'd really like to have 90,000 square feet, okay, and a
full commercial kitchen, and maybe two or three meeting
rooms. Okay. What is your incremental cost above what the
County is going to build as the base to what is determined
by whomever is the optimum size and capability for Kerr
County for, let's say, the next 10 years? Because where
we're going to build it will probably permit you to expand
it in the future, if it's necessary. So, it's kind of -- we
have the base, because we're going to do that, because
that's what the County needs. And what's the add-on cost of
taking it to the next level? Which serves another whole
envelope of users.
MR. PATTERSON: Okav.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Basically, what I
think -- I mean, if you admitted the initial drawings that
had -- how many square feet was that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The initial -- the
initial drawings showed on the exh-bit hall about 27,000.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And in the first
phase -- and we recognize, from the discussions that we've
heard with Sudie and others, that that would be the minimum.

1
2
3
4
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
ly
20
21
22
23
24
25
yo
Then there was a Phase II that was proposed, which would
have been a concrete floor and a -- and a roof, but open air
to accommodate the expansion in the trade shows. That was
kind of a Phase II, so I guess what we're really saying --
three of us are trying to say is that if we're going to
replace the exhibit hall that we have, which is somewhere
between 13,000 and 15,000 square feet, and assume that
responsibility, if -- we need to get it to 30, right? That
there is your incremental cost to give us a facility that
everybody ran buy into, with all the amenities that are
necessary to go with it. That's kind of what I think I'm
hearing.
MAYO F, FINE: But the facility you're planning
on would not be suitable for conventions or --
JUDGE HENNEKE: It would have to be pretty
small.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It could be --
MAYOR FINE: But it wouldn't have any food
preparation area"?
JUDGE HENNEKE: It will have to have some
food preparation, because it's a stand-alone.
MAYOR FINE: 'Cause -- yeah, what we had
talked about was about putting more of a caterer's kitchen.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whichever. Exactly.
JUDGE HENNEKE: But, yeah, it will have to
-1~--- „
91
1
3
9
5
6
7
8
y
10
11
12
13
14
15
76
17
18
19
20
21
~2
23
24
GJ
have some food preparation, 'cause it's a stand-alone.
You'll have to have a place where people can bring their
stuff in, set up to serve or warm, you know, a --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And concession
facilities for when you're in a dinner mode, if you have an
activity that only requires concessions, you have to have
something --
MAYOR FINE: Something that's going to be
climate-controlled.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
MAYOR FINE: So it wouldn't be just
drop-down --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No,
climate-controlled.
JUDGE HENNEKE: If you're conceptually saying
the Hill Country Junior District L5_vestock Show dinner --
MAYOR FINE: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE HENNEKE: -- oae're going to do a
facility that they can operate that: in.
MAYOR FINE: Okay.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Conveniently.
MAYOR FINE: Okay.
MR, SMITH: How many square feet were in the
K.r, Hall? Does anybody know, just. to give us an idea?
7 - 1 ~ _
92
1
2
3
4
5
E
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
77
23
24
25
MAYOR. FINE: Between 10,000 and 12,000.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I would say about 12,000.
MAYOR FINE: Yeah.
JUDGE HENNEKE: It was limited.
MR. SMITH: It's that small? So, you're
talking about something considerably larger.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes.
MAYOR FINE: But it didn't have the food
preparation area, per se. The bark~ecue pit was out back.
MS. SULLIVAN: Right:.
MR. PATTERSON: A serving window. That was
about it.
MAYOR FINE: Yeah. Which study we've done to
date indicates that that type of facility needs to be at
least 27,000.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the current -- what
we do, the space we're doing at thE= current exhibit hall at
the Ag Barn, that building -- that's that open area -- is
13,000 square feet, which is -- it's a pretty big room, but
that's -- you know, that's what it is.
MR. SMITH: Did I hE=ar somebody say in your
exhibit hall you might put animals in there on certain
occasions? Did I hear you say tha_, or somebody say that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No.
MR. SMITH: So, this; would be strictly a
-lie- _ ,-.
93
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
15
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
human --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Human.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Human display.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or you could have -- not
animals; maybe exhibits in there, but not animals.
Exhibits.
MS. SULLIVAN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFII~I: I think what Jonathan
was alluding to is you could have an ag-based function going
on in the ag part, and over in the exhibit hall, you could
have a trade --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tractor show.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Tractor shows or -- in
other words, it would be set up fox- convention-like space,
trade show kind of things.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe we brushed over
too lightly what we're going to do -- what remains. What
would remain from the two facilities there now would be the
arena, but it is in serious need oi= rehabilitation. And
what would disappear is what we ca-_1 the exhibit hall now
and the pens behind it. That goes out and is replaced with
a barn of about 95,000 square feet, something li}:e that,
which is capable of handling just about any kind of an
animal enterprise or extravaganza that you could think
about. And once the arena is rehabilitated -- and it needs

99
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
it seriously; a lot of things need to be done to it -- then
the agriculture or animal activities are really contained
there, and they have plenty of room for growth in those two
facilities. And about the only thing that -- that you can
think of that might come over on the other side would be
something like the Hill Country District Junior Livestock
Show fundraising dinner, which attracts a huge crowd, and
other things of that nature.
JUDGE HENNEKE: 'Cause right now, the -- the
Junior District Livestock Show dinner, which is their major
fundraiser, is limited to about 700 people. They sell 350
tickets, which, you know, two, three persons to a ticket.
They could probably sell 500 tickets, 700 tickets if they
had the space, but they don't have the space. So, one thing
we're going to try to do is to provide them with
additional --
MAYOR FINE: A lot of functions could -- the
Mounted Peace Officers dinner.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A11 of them.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Exactly.
MR. SMITH: Well, that facility at Schreiner
must not have more than 5,000 square feet, if that much.
MAYOR FINE: The drawback to that is you have
to do your catering through Marion=. That's the biggest
drawback to it, besides the size. But, I mean --
. ~~ _ 1 . .
95
1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
1 ~i
19
20
21
22
23
~4
25
MR. SMITH: It's very small, isn't it? Would
it be 5,000, maybe 6,000?
JUDGE HENNEKE: If you really cram in, you
can seat about 450 people in that ballroom for dinner, but
that doesn't leave any room for an auction --
MAYOR FINE: No dance floor.
DODGE HENNEKE: -- or dance or anything like
that. Your silent auction has to be set outside around the
courtyard.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And you have to
compete with Schreiner for dates.
MR. SMITH: Yeah. fou need some kind of
facility here, but with a name other than "Ag Barn."
(Laughter.)
MR. SMITH: I can't see people coming halfway
across the state to go to Kerrville=_ to eat in an ag barn.
MAYOR FINE: You'd be surprised. Well --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We can have a contest
to rename it.
DODGE HENNEKE: And I think that this is an
issue that -- that the Court will arobably take to the
voters, in the sense of a bond issue or approval of some
sort of financing. Exact timing is unknown. I think the
most likely dates, in my mind, are either next February or
next August. February may be a bit ambitious, although it

96
1
2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
75
has certain advantages.
MR. SMITH: Well, you're talking about
spending money in February on this:'
JUDGE HENNEKE: No.
MR. SMITH: Going to the voters? Okay. So,
we would be talking about probably X004?
JUDGE HENNEKE: No, we're talking about --
you know, if a bond election was successful, we would be
cranking up immediately, because that's right -- if we did
it in February, we would be cranking up immediately, 'cause
that's right after the Junior District Livestock Show, and
so we would want to accomplish as much as we can before they
need the space for the next show.
MR. SMITH: That would mean we'd have to have
it in this budget that's coming up, then, to spend money.
MAYOR FINE: Well, that's why we have to
crunch the numbers to see how much we're talking about, what
source we're looking at. Unfortunately, the flood just put
a little damper on our cash flow for this next year. We may
be buying roads and utility lines instead of -- but, you
know, we'll just have to wait and see what the numbers play
out to. I think that's kind of why we're sitting here.
MR. PATTERSON: Do you have any kind of a
timeline on when we would have that data available?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ten days, probably.
_Ln ~~_ TCc
97
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
25
MR. PATTERSON: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I've got
an August 1 deadline to have a budget to them, so --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably before that.
It's not that hard to put together what's going in, just
going through the local -- we've got -- we've worked it so
many times, we have a lot of numbers. But we ought to go
out one more time to area builders and say, What do you
think it's going to cost to build this? Here's the list of
what we want. We want a barn that's 45,000 square feet,
14 feet high, you know, metal buildinq. Barn's the other
part, the Ag Barn.
MR. SMITH: The barn's okay over there.
AUDIENCE: Convention hall.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Then the other convention
center for the --
MR. PATTERSON: I need a -- I mean, like, if
I get that data and have questions about it, who's my
contact?
COMMISSIONER
MAYOR FINE:
facility would serve 1,000
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
seat 1,000 in the round.
MAYOR FINE:
LETZ: Me.
She said a 27,000 square foot
people, right?
LETZ: Yeah.
WILLIAMS: Well, seat 1,000 -
Right.

1
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
19
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
98
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And still leave you
room for a dance floor and auction space and things of that
nature with a catering kitchen.
MAYOR FINE: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right, and all the --
MAYOR FINE: Proper restroom facilities.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And some other
amenities, yeah.
MAYOR FINE: Yeah, those would be good
amenities to have.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Restrooms?
MS. SOLLIVAN: Yeah, I think so.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, indeed. Plenty
of them.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We're going to have
that in the slimmed-down version, even.
MAYOR FINE: Okay. I think we --
MR. PATTERSON: Okay. I think I got what I
need. Okay.
MR. SMITH: I shouldn't say too much about
animals. The biggest fundraiser in New Orleans was what was
called the "Zoo To-Do." You'd go out to the zoo in your
formal attire, ladies in their higYi heels and their long
dresses, and they'd raise over a m_llion dollars in a
one-night deal at the zoo. Maybe the animals are
°-~-
99
1
2
3
9
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
29
25
attractive.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're not planning a
zoo for Flat Rock Lake.
AUDIENCE: Aquarium.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else anyone would
like to bring up along any future considerations? Any --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What was the question
we had today in court? You said we -- oh, the last question
of the night.
JUDGE HENNEKE: What was that question?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What was it? Five
senior moments all at once. There was something we talked
about in court this afternoon; we said, oh, we're going to
have a meeting at 9 o'clock with the City Council. We'll
just ask that question.
JUDGE HENNEKE: 1 think it had to do with the
airport.
COMMISSIONER GRlr'r7CJ: No. Jail? It was the
jail, maybe. Prisoners. We talked about that a long time
this morning. Kathy, help us.
(Discussion off the record.)
JUDGE HENNEKE: Wel.L, if we don't have
anything else other than senior moments, I'd suggest we
adjourn. Okay. Thank you all.
-li_-=. i...
100
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
~~
23
24
25
MR. PATTERSON:	Thank y'	all	very	much.
(Joint meeting	adjourned	at	6:25	p.m.)
STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF KERR I
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 2nd day of August,
2002.
JANNETT PIE PER, Kerr County Clerk
BY : _~ _ ~ilixi.lG _ ____ ___ ___
Kathy Ba ik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
in ~~_ .r.-,_