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OR~~~~
AL
KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
November 1, 2002
1:30 p.m.
Commissioners Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
PRESENT:
FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge
H.A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN P. LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4
~~
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INDEX
November 1, 2002
PAGE
Call to Order ---------------------------- 3
1.2 Consider and discuss establishment of
County Park Board and appointments to
such Board, if required -------------
1.1 Consider and discuss approval of RFQ for
Design/Build Team for
Renovation/Expansion of Hill Country
Youth Exhibit Center, time for notices,
time for returning bids, time for
opening bids, and related issues ----
1.2 Consider and discuss establishment of
Count Park Board and a ointments to
3
6 a7B~ l
Y PP
such Board, if required ---- 57~7,43~3
Adjourned ------ ------ 66
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On Friday, November 1, 2002, at 1:30
p.m., a meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners
Court was held in the Commissioners Courtroom, Kerr
County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and the
following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE HENNEKE: Good afternoon,
everyone. It's 1:30 in the afternoon on Friday,
November 1st, and I will call to order this special
session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court.
The architect on Item No. 1 is in route, so while
we wait for him, we will go ahead and take up Item
No. 2 which is to consider and discuss
establishment of the County Park Board and
appointments to such Board, if required.
I sent an e-mail out to everyone
regarding my thoughts on the Park Board. It's my
feeling that given the fact that we're talking
about creating the entity for only one piece of
property, that it really isn't a good exercise in
government to do so. So my suggestion to the
Commissioners Court is that pursuant to the
statute, we adopt Chapter 320 and act as the Board
without ever formally appointing a Board.
Does anyone have any questions or
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suggestions regarding that?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a
comment or two and then maybe a question. I'm in
agreement with you; however, I don't know about
this verbiage of adopting Chapter 320. What do you
mean "adopt"?
JUDGE HENNEKE:
the statute says, and my inte
when we adopt Chapter 320, we
with respect to this piece of
were a Park Board, so we have
obligations --
Well, that's what
rpretation is that
agree to act on --
property as if we
all the powers and
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I see.
JUDGE HENNEKE: -- of a Park Board
without ever actually constituting and formally
appointing a Park Board and having them file bonds
and elect officers and all those things.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm there.
JUDGE HENNEKE: And the statute does
specifically state that the Commissioners Court may
act -- may adopt Chapter 320 and act as if was a
Park Board.
Jonathan, go ahead.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just --
whatever is the simplest way to lease it, to me --
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I mean, that's --
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, and if
it requires us adopting the chapter, I don't have a
problem with that.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think we
have to, don't we, the way it sounds?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We do, but
there's -- I think -- in talking with Boh a little
bit, I think that the County Attorney has had some
changing of -- in his point of view possibly as to
whether you can lease without doing the public
auction scenario or not. I mean, he's -- anyway,
that's why I was hoping he would be here because if
we don't have to adopt, my preference would be just
to raise your hands and lease it. If we have to
adopt to lease it, well, then that would be the
right way, but I'd prefer it --
MS. SOVIL: He's on his way.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: While we're
waiting on him, Glenn, could you turn the air
conditioning off, please.
MR. HOLEKAMP: On?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Off.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Oh.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I
certainly agree with that, John. If we don't have
to add another layer of anything there --
JUDGE HENNEKE: You know, if he has
now changed his opinion so that we can lease this
property directly to the Arts & Crafts Fair Board,
I think that's undoubtedly the best way to
accomplish it, but in light of the memo he provided
us for the last meeting, I think he needs to come
in here and stand up and say which way you can do
that, so...
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's on his
way?
JUDGE HENNEKE: He's on his way?
MS. SOVIL: That's what they told
me
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Well, let's
table that one since Mr. Gondeck is here. In a
vain attempt to keep things moving today, I can
tell right now how this one is going to go. We
will table that and take up Item No. 1 which is
consider and discuss the approval of the RFQ for
Design/Build Team for the Renovation/Expansion of
Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center, time for
notices, time for returning bids, time for opening
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bids, and related issues.
Welcome, Wayne.
MR. GONDECK: Judge, Commissioners,
good to be here again. I do have three documents
I'd like to pass out to you so that we can review.
I have too many papers.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you.
Is all three in this one?
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: Hopefully brevity will
be --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Will
prevail?
MR. GONDECK: -- will prevail in
this. Thank you, Commissioner.
First of all, the top document is a
one-page document which is just a suggested
advertisement for the paper which relates to the
Request for Qualifications for Design/Build
services. It's a very abbreviated form. It
basically takes the first paragraph of the Request
for Qualifications and moves on from there, so in
essence, once we have solidified what the dates are
and the times -- there is one issue on there that
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we are making notice of a mandatory presubmittal
conference. In other words, we want all the
proposers or Design/Build firms to come out to the
site and to walk through the site so we make sure
that everybody knows what we're talking about doing
within the scope of the work.
Beyond that, we have then notified here
that we're going to follow Chapter 251, Section
119, and then at the bottom we are requestinc3 them
to contact the consulting architect, our firm, to
obtain the full RFQ. The reason we're doing that
is so we can track who has asked for the Request
for Qualifications. There's no deposit or anything
on it. We're just going to allow them to have it
-- either to fax it or overnight it to them,
however, to get it to them quickly, but that way if
they already changed our addendums, everything --
everybody is registered with our office as far as
showing interest, and we can get any subsequent
information out to them quickly, and what comes to
mind is on -- like, on the asbestos survey. Once
we have that information, we need to move forward
and get that information to the contractors as
quickly as possible.
So that is really the main issues on the
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actual advertisement, and if I could, if we could
go over to the Request for Qualifications and just
move through there. First of all, we are -- it's
published as soon as possible, and whether that's
this weekend or Monday, we do think that it should
be published as soon as possible, and with that
publication, even if it is on the 4th as far as the
first one or the 5th, that we do feel that there's
ample time between then and the 22nd of November
for them to put together their qualification
statement.
This qualification statement does not
require them to come up with any designs or
anything that is really cumbersome or laborious as
far as putting it together. We are asking for a
lot of information on their companies and their
qualifications, but we are not asking them to
produce anything at that point.
So we are recommending that we receive
the initial qualification statements on the 22nd,
and I believe we've asked for that to be submitted
by 2 p.m. That is a Friday. We do have it to
where those will be turned in at the County Clerk's
office, and then on the Monday morning following,
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which will be the 25th, to have a special meeting
of Commissioners Court to actually open those,
acknowledge those -- receipt of those Design/Build
firms, and then to turn them over to the consulting
architect for their recommendations.
We are requesting six copies. That way
each of the Coit~cnissioners, the Judge, and the
consulting architect has a copy of that so we can
be looking over that, and when we come back to meet
on it, that everybody will have a few days to go
through the proposals.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We probably need
seven copies, one for the County Clerk.
MR. GONDECK: Okay. That I can do.
There still are some questions on the
actual property, and it's my questions that I have
on some of the legal description and the survey,
and I'm still trying to touch base with
Mr. Voelkel. He supposedly has a survey of it. If
we can find a format that works, then we can attach
that to this at least to give them that item. So
between now and Monday, hopefully I'll get that
resolved as far as the site
Going down from the -- at the last time
we presented, there was some discussion on the
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budget. What we have stated down here on the
bottom of the first page under Budget is that it's
anticipated not to exceed as far as the
construction, and what we're asking the
Design/Builder to do, their part of the contract to
be -- not to exceed $3 million; however, depending
on what the County wants to put in there in its
contract or take out, that can fluctuate.
We're reserving the right to let that
fluctuate 25 percent.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want -- a
comment because I talked to Wayne about this and
the Judge may have too. For example, all the
furnishings -- the furnishings are not included in
that. The hog -- the new animal pens are not
included, things of that nature, and plus the fees,
and probably -- I would probably want -- the full
500,000 probably is not -- some of that could be
added back in for that additional -- I mean, that
way we can get some grants to help cover, like, the
hog pens or something like that. Then that money
can be available for construction-type items, but
it's just to make sure we have enough money.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So this 25
percent figure, is that a good figure?
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, that gets
us back up to three and a half million. If we were
able to, you know, find money through grants,
whatever, for 500,000, that would get us up to the
full bond issue amount, I think. Isn't that
correct?
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir, and really
the 25 percent is really tied back to some of the
other construction statutes that, ynu know, as far
as change orders and being able to go up to that 25
percent of the original bid, so it gives us some, I
guess you might say, precedence. Again, I never
like to use those words, and I'm not an attorney
so...
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's
essentially a management reserve, isn't it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's fine.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Like, for
example, if we decided we wanted to add an air
conditioner in the summer, we could add an air
conditioner because, you know -- or just have some
flexibility.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think
that's a reasonable percentage. We can step
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through it one other time.
MR. GONDECK: On page 2 we did fill
in the blanks on the number of offers that we would
narrow it down to to actually present to the
Commissioners Court that was set as a maximum of
You know, if we get two design builders
that submit and no more, then I guess we could go
with both if they're qualified; but if we get, you
know, five or ten of them, then we r_an narrow that
down to three and have three present.
And with our time frame involved -- one,
we don't want to make a lot of people go through
the effort of coming up with conceptual designs and
doing that additional work. You know, it does take
a lot of time and time and money on the part of the
Design/Build teams, so it's usually proper and
fair. The statutes say no more than five, but we
can reduce that down to three, and that would be
our recommendation is keep it at three.
As far as the selection criteria, that
has not really changed except for one of the
comments. We did have a requirement of -- on the
references to have other County officials as
references also. In other words, other
commissioners or judges from other counties to be
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able to contact as to how they performed on other
public work.
The point was brought up that we want to
make it very clear that we do not want any of the
references to be Kerr County officials, so you'll
notice on page 3 it's in very big, bold letters
that we do not want them to utilize any references
from Kerr County, and, again, on the last page --
or, yeah, the last page, page four, we did r.hange
the recipient of those qualification statements to
the Kerr County Clerk.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go back to the
county official. I -- I mean, isn't it possible
that some of these contractors may have never done
work for a county?
MR. GONDECK: And if they don't have
them, then, you know, that would -- we would hope
that they have done other public work because there
is a different process between public work and
private work, and I think it is definitely a good
reference to have other, you know, counties or
county officials in there.
If not, now they can always say that
they've done work for Kerr County and -- but they
would not list the names and particular individuals
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or whatever. You would already have that
information.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Should we possibly
make this indicate county officials from other
counties or other public work -- parties
responsible for public works?
MR. GONDECK: We could -- instead of
"county officials" we could make it "public
officials."
JUDGE HENNEKE: I mean, I think that
gets to Jonathan's issue. Let's say they built a
state jail or if they built a building for a
municipality.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I think that --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. That's --
I mean, I can see -- I mean, I don't know how much
you want to spend -- I just don't want to limit it
because they haven't worked for a county.
MR. GONDECK: Right. Well, even if
they do something for one of the other authorities
or something, even getting down to a housing
project, they're still -- if ycu go through that
process, you're still getting attached to what the
total process is in accountability of the public
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works. So, to me, that would be any public
official.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's fine.
MR. GONDECK: And I may reword that
as far as any entities, you know, dealing with
public funds.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would you
change the exclusion then -- if you include a
possibility of having done municipal work, would
you change the exclusion to include the City of
Kerrville as well as Kerr County?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I -- my
point on the comment that I made was that, you
know, I didn't want them to use -- I didn't think
it was appropriate to use one of us as a reference.
I mean, it kind of tends to, you know -- to me, it
would be an awkward situation.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, then
put -- include current -- do not include current
Kerr County officials in these references.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's fine.
MR. GONDECK: Is that a consensus to
add "current"?
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COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sure, but are
you going to change the first part of that to --
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- address
public works and so on?
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir.
Under phase two, we did add a -- from a
suggestion, we added a requirement to provide at
least a sketch of their proposed front elevations,
and I'm asking for this for both the, you know, new
barn and exhibit hall. There's not a whole lot
that they can do with the barn, but at least we
want to make sure that they understand the concept
and so they understand this entry, you know, sort
of to look like because we are under design
criteria asking them to try to develop a central
entry point for both the arena and the new barn,
but, again, those would be, you know, conceptual
drawings and not a big colored rendering or
anything.
Okay. Are there any other questions on
initial Request for Qualifications?
The third document is a design criteria
package which we can go through that in detail.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. On
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the scoring points of the scoring system, is that
something you do? I mean, you will score them
and --
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- rate them?
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir. We will
come back to you with the rated recommendations
based on the allocation of those points for each of
those categories_
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: And I'll tell you, you
know, there's going to be a really -- I'm not going
to go on individual minute points. We're going to
say, you know, ten is excellent. Good is seven.
Five means they're okay, and no points if they
didn't answer it, so that way we don't get down to
the end having to look at fractions.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just wanted to
make sure it wasn't something that I was supposed
to learn how to do. I wanted a recommendation.
MR. GONDECK: And those -- just -- I
know that y'all probably know this, but those --
those recommendations -- I believe it's within
seven days after there is an award of the
design/builder those have to be made public, so
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that's one of the reasons why we're being very
specific on selection criteria. Now, when we come
back with our recommendations, it's well documented
and does have some objective scoring in it.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions
about the RFQ?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I just
want to -- they're not -- for some reason or other
they're not putting in the approximate acres, it
appears, both in the requests -- the RFQ and it
appears in the last document, and my recollection
is that the original site plan that we did, the
full mass was 65 acres, and if we're taking out six
acres for another purpose, should we not fill that
in?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think he's
waiting on Voelkel to get the drawings on that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
JUDGE HENNEKE: But you'll fill that
place in obviously.
MR. GONDECK: And even if we went to
put 58 acres in, that's still -- that's an
approximate. At least they know that's a fairly
large --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
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MR. GONDECK: I don't think we have
to be held, you know, to the plus and minus of a
certain percentage of an acreage.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Turn to the
Design Criteria Package then.
MR. GONDECK: Okay. The Design
Criteria Package is a five-page document that
outlines the -- the basic requirements for the
design. In developing this, we do not want to be
dictating the actual design because that's what
you're hiring a design/build team to do; however,
we want to give them the overall scope work, the
elements that we expect to be in a project, and to
give them some level of quality work that we're
looking for.
At the beginning, we just have a general
project scope and also do place in there the
requirements -- statutory requirements that they
have to meet both the Engineering Practice Act and
architectural registration laws, so they have to
provide the design professionals within their
design/build team.
Again, we reiterate, as in the RFQ, the
actual elements. We go into the applicable codes.
What we have done on that is try to keep them in
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line with what the City of Kerrville is requiring
so if it ever is annexed or if it, even within this
process becomes a cooperative effort, that it will
meet the City of Kerrville requirements.
We even have a -- down here at the bottom
of the page, we do bring up, again, that we intend
them to work cooperatively with the City of
Kerrville in obtaining those requirements and
making sure that the designs do meet those
requirements.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I -- I don't think
that's a real good idea. The City of Kerrville
sometimes has its own method of -- I mean, I don't
want to be in a position where we can't proceed
because they don't sign off on a particular design,
particular --
MR. GONDECK: That's one reason why
I didn't put that they have to be approved by the
City of Kerrville. I just said that they had to
work cooperatively with them, but they -- Kerr
County still has the authority of approving or
rejecting the design. They are not subject by this
to the approval of the City of Kerrville. I can
even strike that last sentence and say --
JUDGE HENNEKE: You know, I suggest
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that we strike the last phrase after "the City of
Kerrville." I think if we tell the design/build
team they have to construct the project and meet
the building requirements for the City of
Kerrville, tYien we've taken care of any potential
cooperative ventures down the road.
I don't think this thing will ever be
annexed into the City, but to go a step further and
say and shall work c_o~peratively on what is now a
purely County project, to me, inserts another
player in unnecessarily. Any disagreement?
COMMISSIONER LETZ. I'd agree.
You're talking about deleting from --
JUDGE HENNEKE: "And shall work" --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- "and shall
work cooperatively with the City's Building
Department"?
JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would agree
with that deletion.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I mean, it doesn't
-- it still says it's going to be built according
to the City's standards, but what it makes clear is
that, you know --
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not --
JUDGE HENNEKE: -- the design/build
team is building it on a County property.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just put a
period after "Kerrville"?
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. I
agree with that.
,7UDGE HENNEKE: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: In going on, then we
did want to say that it is a cooperative effort as
far as working with the owner.
In paragraph four on developing the
design for the project, and that the design/build
firm will also work with the other associations
that the owner may choose and including the Junior
District Livestock Show Association. If there's
others that we want to specifically name, we can do
that. We don't even have to really name the one
that we have here, but anybody that's going to have
interest, we want to make sure that they are aware
that they -- the design has to please several
groups or at least there will be input even though
the Commissioners Court still retains the authority
on saying what goes into the project.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I was
going to get to that point. Just so there's no
question in anybody's mind that working
cooperatively doesn't mean that some other agency
other than this Court has veto power over plans and
so forth.
MR. GONDECK: No, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think on the
-- and on that one, the Hill Country Junior
District Livestock Show Association is a huge
board. I think we ought to narrow it down to the
executive board.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Executive --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because they're
the ones that we always -- we deal with them, and
they're the ones that have the authority to make
any decision for the board, and that can --
MR. GONDECK: And I understand the
issues there. You know, trying to get a couple
dozen people to come up with a consensus --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couple dozen?
Couple hundred.
MR. GONDECK: I always feel like if
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we can get five to come up with a consensus we're
doing good.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I resemble that
(Laughter.)
MR. GONDECK: Okay, and then I did
under paragraph five there go back into allowing
the County to, I guess, add to or increase the
scope of the work as far as the asbestos removal if
you so choose. That can be handled one of two
ways: Either it can be totally separate, or it can
be handled under the design/build firm, and as we
find out more about that -- by the way just as a
side note, they are intending to come out on
Tuesday and do the actual sampling, so hopefully by
the end of next week we should at least have a
preliminary notification from them.
Okay. Again, like I said on the project
site, we will insert those minor little things and
try to make sure that we have the survey, just
something to give them just so it shows where the
buildings are. I do not want to use the previous
master plan because it's my understanding they may
or may not -- the people that develop that may or
may not be submitting on this, and I don't think
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that's a fair use of that document.
Okay. Building and Site Requirements,
the first one is getting into the actual demolition
of the existing barn and exhibit hall, and we were
trying to leave this broad scope enough, again, so
that we can make some determinations as they come
up with designs as to how much of the existing
actual arena structure that may be demolished with
this also_
There's some elements that may be able to
be reused, and we may want to say, Let's take down
that last -- mainly that last bay of the arena that
was added on that has a little bit different slope
and everything to it, and that bay may need to come
off in that one area. So we did leave that a
little bit open, and then, of course, requiring
them to make sure that they legally dispose of it
and, you know, don't run five miles down the road
and dump it in a creek.
Going on with the New Hog Barn --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can we take
out the word "hog" there, Wayne?
MR. GONDECK: well, I've gone back
and forth on what we're -- if we're just describing
it as a barn, that's fine. I will be consistent
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then throughout.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: Show barn.
MR. GONDECK: Well, then I was
already told to take "show" out before, and I don't
know.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like "hog."
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think
"show."
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like hogs
and goats, pigeons -- pigeon barn.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I think we should
just call it a barn.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah,
livestock barn.
MR. GONDECK: Can we call it a -- I
mean, we can call it a barn --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a show
barn.
MR. GONDECK: -- a livestock barn?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's wrong
with hogs?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because it's
limiting.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We may put sheep
in there or they may put sheep in there.
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JUDGE HENNEKE: Or goats.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, then
you'd have to go over here in this other document
because he listed four or five animals and left
cows out. I'm not asking you to do that, but, I
mean, it makes about that much sense.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I think we should
call it a livestock barn. That's a very
encompassing --
MR. GONDECK: And that way I can be
consistent throughout all the documents --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That will
work.
MR. GONDECK: -- and then call it
livestock.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just think of
all the people in Center Point's feelings are going
to be hurt now --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS
it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN:
you left hogs out.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS
included in livestock.
(Laughter.)
I'll explain
-- because
No. They're
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MR. GONDECK: Well, I was wondering
if we ought to come up with a page of definitions
and we put on there "livestock is."
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hogs aren't
livestock. Sheep are.
JUDGE HENNEKE: We're getting too
far afield.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, there's
got to be some fun in here somewhere, Judge.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: But I will call the
existing one an existing hog barn?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.
MR. GONDECK: The new one will be
livestock.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
MR. GONDECK: So the -- let's see.
I almost lost my place there. We are allowing them
to either utilize on the 50,000 square foot barn --
new livestock barn to allow them to either have a
preengineered or custom-engineered building. That
gives them a little more latitude and allows them
to be a little bit more competitive especially in
those areas that do not have to be clear spanned.
In going through the existing facility,
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we have determined that somewhere around 100 by 60
front section to be clear spanned so that you could
set it up for judging and other things there, but
the remainder of them that we would allow to have
interim or interior support columns, and actually
that does some good for us is that it does give
us good locations for permanent electrical and
plumbing connections or water connections besides,
you know, trying to have some other pull-down or
relocatable electrical connections.
Okay. We are asking to also, during that
process of design, to have some alternate design,
and what that means is that we'll have design and
pricing for going with at least for the masonry
exterior up to a certain height, and some of you
say what does that cost and isn't it a value to go
ahead and do that rather than run the metal panels
all the way down in that facility.
And we are also asking as far as the
floor area within the latter two parts that, yes,
originally we were looking at dirt or sand floors;
however, we also want to have an alternate design
for a nonstructural concrete slab in there or a
concrete floor in there, and that way we can know
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what that value is to, you know, bring in sawdust
or whatever we want to put on top of it to, you
know, have a more flexible-use facility.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wayne, can we
go back to this -- just real quick to this
alternate design for masonry exterior walls. What
-- are we talking about stucco cement? Are we
talking about a rock wall?
MR. GONDECK: Actually on this, it
would be my envisioning of coming up to a certain
point with a concrete wainscoting at eight feet or
so so that we couldn't -- you know, you don't end
up with the panels getting dented in, and, you
know, when you're moving things around, tractors
run into it, whatever else that -- you just have
that more durable surface. So it was not really
intended to be an aesthetic issue as much as it is
intended to be a functional issue.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-huh.
Okay.
MR. GONDECK: Whatever I do, I will
not recommend to you that we put a drive-it system
or whatever on there on this type of facility
because even in the most reinforced ones, they get
torn up, and that fake stucco stuff gets torn up.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
MR. GONDECK: Okay. Restroom
facilities, wherever we have stated this, I've also
tied in some of the other statutory requirements as
far as public facilities and assembly facilities,
horse complexes. Some of it -- you may remember
that term "potty parody," to make sure that we have
the sufficient facilities for both genders, so we
do our -- to make sure they're aware of that, and
we're going to hold them to the higher standard on
that.
Concessions, we are asking for those two
concession areas; however, we are not requiring
them to actually put in any kind of concessions
equipments. They'll have to meet the health codes,
you know, have the lavatory, hand-wash sinks and
things of that nature but will not be responsible
for actually bringing in any of the dispensing type
of equipment.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the two
concessions, at one point we went down to that one
concession	as acceptable	if	it	saves	a substantial
amount. I	mean, if it's	a	lot	-- I	don't know that
we have to have two concession stands in that. I
think if you have one -- two would be nice. One if
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it's centrally located would probably work.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could do the
same with the restroom too, couldn't you?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And restroom as
well.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Positioned
between the barn and the existing arena.
MR. GONDECK: Yeah. The restrooms
we did bring that back to a centralized facility
that would serve both the arena and the new
building. Concessions --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would -- we'd
ask you the question. Would it probably save --
would it be cheaper to put one a little bit larger
concession than two smaller -- than two?
MR. GONDECK: Typically it would
because also you have a centralized storage with
that and everything that you don't --
operationally, except where, you know, if you can
make it to where you can get to it and have longer
-- more windows, then it doesn't really make any
problems with the lines, but, operationally, if you
can centralize your storage and everything for
that --
JUDGE HENNEKE: Maybe we should just
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say a concession stand facility or facility shall
be provided to serve the new building.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: New building
and the arena.
JUDGE HENNEKE: And the arena
building, yeah, which gives the flexibility of
having one that relates to both buildings or two.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's an
element of competition_ You know, it's a good
element to -- you know, if somebody comes up with a
good plan that costs about the same and you have
two and they're well located and all that, then --
MR. GONDECK: And then within this
process that you have the ability to work through
some of these issues and request certain things
especially once we select a design/build team to
get into the details and say, yes, we like this
concept, but can you try to consolidate some
things? You do not have to strictly accept that
conceptual drawing as is without any further input.
It is a continuous, you know, input when
it comes up to that guaranteed maximum costs that
you want, and you have the latitude to place in or
take out specific elements to a time that you're
agreeing with a design/builder to that's what we're
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going to do, and now let's start building.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: Office area, 2500
square feet. This finished area will have a full
mechanical heating and cooling system. We left
that four private offices, a reception, work area,
and storage so it just sort of gives them a general
idea on that. Once they've laid it out, then we
can get into it in more details exactly what you
want in there.
We do request them to have a recognizable
entrance and being able to tie in that new barn
with the existing arena and have that one focal
point where people know where they're going when
they get there.
Mechanical ventilation system, this is
not cooling. This is strictly a ventilation
system. We're requiring that to work both in the
three separate compartments that we're going to
have, plus when they open it all up, it will work,
and it will work with the doors closed or open.
You know, any time that you have a major
rainstorm or anything else, you close the doors.
If you've not made provisions with having some
motorized, you know, interconnected louvers to
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allow for makeup air, then, you know, the system
will work. So that's what that is tying --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you put a --
I noticed you put, like, for heating a minimum
temperature. Can you put a -- I guess a -- from
the cooling standpoint a temperature as well so
they don't -- I mean, that way we can keep it at
least 85 degrees, 83, something like that?
MR. GONDECK: What we did in that
-- when we got -- someplace in here. I know I have
it in here someplace as far as the velocity. Well,
that's in the -- no. That was in the existing
building. What we probably can do is establish a
minimum amount of CFM as far as air movement, but,
again, as far as if you were really to go in there
-- you know, on a 100 degree day, you're going to
be moving 100 degree air; however, it's going to
feel cooler because of the velocity of air.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, but we
need something there to --
MR. GONDECK: But I will -- we'll
try to get around ten air changes as a minimum, and
-- air changes per hour.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know if
that's good or bad, but Glenn says that's a lot
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MR. HOLEKAMP: That's pretty good in
MR. GONDECK: You're going to be
around probably 200,000 cubic feet per minute,
which is some pretty hefty fans, but with all the
dust and everything else in there, you really need
to have that level of ventilation. So I'll put the
CFM -- a minimum requirement for the CFM in there.
On the heating, and I went back and forth
on this myself as far as, you know, how much heat
do you put in there. We're presuming that we're
going to be looking at unit heaters, radiant
heaters placed throughout the facility. Obviously
some places are very warm. That's where everybody
is going to want to be, but we wanted to sort of
establish a minimum threshold when it's, you know,
40 degrees outside or 30 degrees outside as to what
would be, you know, a good number there; and
knowing that means that you're going to be in and
out of the barns a lot of times.
You don't necessarily have to get it too
warm, but I don't know if the 60 degrees was maybe
a little bit high. If you go below that, it starts
getting fairly uncomfortable, but somewhere between
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55 and 60 degrees is usually easy to deal with with
a, you know, jacket on or something like that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That seems, I
mean, reasonable to me.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When it's 40
and wind blowing outside in January, 60 will feel
good.
MR_ GONDECK: That's the way I
figured it, but some of our guidelines don't -- you
know, that architects use all the time don't
necessarily correlate directly to livestock barns,
so we're having to deal with some of our own
experiences here.
General lighting within the facilities,
what we're trying to do is get at least 10-foot
candles two foot off the floor. Just with your
general illumination that's a fairly good amount.
It's not task lighting, but it does give good,
general illumination.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wayne, is it
something similar then when you build a jail in the
jail cells? I know that there's pretty strict
requirements.
MR. GONDECK: Well, actually those
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are 20-foot candles and -- like, in the exhibit
hall where we said a minimum of 20-foot candles,
you know, in that area. That's just a good task
area for general, you know, eating and being able
to read documents and things --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-huh.
MR. GONDECK: -- on the table. Of
course, if you're, you know, at a workstation, you
know, you're gaming t~ he looking at somewhere
between 80 and 100-foot candles is what they
usually like to see, but y'all would probably fuss
real quick when you got the utility bills from the
first show if we set an 80 to higher foot candles.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah,
probably would.
MR. GONDECK: But 20 for an exhibit
area is fairly good. You would have, you know,
obviously more and less, but this is our -- a
minimal requirement that we're saying throughout
the area. So I didn't want to say on this one to
get up -- all the way up to 20. We did say 10-foot
candles.
On the electrical outlets throughout the
barn, we're looking to have them no less than 20
feet on center. You know, it would be nice if we
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can have more, but I think we'll really be pushing
it to get them more than 20 feet on center.
If we think we can get beyond that or
open that up a little bit more, that can
definitely, you know, help reduce cost, but that
can be one of those items that, as you get into the
design, you can back off of that. You know, well,
this is an area that, you know, we can save some
money, going to maybe 30 feet may be better.
Because in an open area -- you know, right now we
have some swing-down plugs or whatever. What we
would recommend is to have something that's more in
the retractable-type that is UL listed. So,
anyway, I won't go on from that.
We do not want them to extend anything up
out of the floor in the open areas. We don't want
to have any little pedestals around because that
really cuts down your flexibility, plus they get
run over and busted, but we will allow them any of
the interior supports to have electrical outlets
and water; and someone was asking me, you know,
whether that was going to be grounded or
ground-fault outlets, and, yes, by code and the wet
locations that we're going to have there will be
ground-fault type outlets.
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Water faucets, the way we did that was
really to say that all areas within the interior of
the building have to be -- you know, have to be
reached with a 50-foot hose so that, you know,
they'll probably be putting them at the interior
column supports.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are there
drains? I mean, are there drains throughout the
floor?
MR. GONDECK: "The interior drains
shall be provided to prevent ponding of water in
the interior of the building," so --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: -- depending on the
actual final layout and how they are as far as the
location of the hose bibbs, we're covering that.
If you're going have water there, we need to have a
drain. Now, of course, that doesn't work as well
in dirt and -- because then it turns into mud and
then you forget where the drains are.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you're
going to have a hog barn, you need to have drains.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's
wisdom. That's true wisdom.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Livestock
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are a little more --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's from
many years of having dealt with hogs.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's not
just knowledge. That's wisdom.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's
wisdom. Two different deals.
MR. GONDECK: The public address
system, we are requiring them to place a public
address system in there that is audible in all the
areas of the new barn, also that it can be
segregated to where it -- each of the sections can
work independently. That can be handled
electronically with their mixers, so, you know, you
can either turn it on for the whole thing or you
can turn it on for each of the individual areas.
And then with this, as we go to the other
renovations of the arena, we're going to have them
to go back in and tie in the two PA systems so that
you can actually have the entire facility work as
one or work them independently. You may have
something going on at the arena that you don't want
that going on in the other buildings, but it will
give you that flexibility to be able to do the
whole thing at one time.
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Okay. Any other questions on the new
barn?
MR. DAVIS: Was there any
consideration of a roof rainwater gathering system?
I may have missed something.
JUDGE HENNEKE: We haven't discussed
that. That hasn't been something that's been --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've discussed
it with Mr. Gondeck, and that's something to be
added and talked about later.
MR. DAVIS: Okay. That's on --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We visited about
it, the pros and cons of some that -- you know,
because I've discussed it with Mr. Gondeck, and
it's something that we could discuss later.
MR. DAM S: So it's -- it's on the
table as an option?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Yes.
MR. DAM S: Thank you.
MR. GONDECK: New exhibit hall,
13,000 square foot building, one of the earlier
requirements stated was for it to have a rock or
masonry front, and really looking at the location,
I started going back and forth as to which was the
front because it's really going to be approached
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most of the time from that existing arena area, so
we may want to look at that to have them give us
some design alternates of maybe both sides, both
the -- the east side and north side may be dressed
up a little bit more instead of just having the one
on Highway 27 side, so we just wanted to leave that
open as an option for them to give us some feedback
there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wouldn't --
wouldn't we want to -- the building to look
something similar -- what's the A&M building over
there? Eddie --
JUDGE HENNEKE: The --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ag Extension
Office?
COMMISSIONER
service office building. I
what it is. It seems like
COMMISSIONER
native stone on it.
COMMISSIONER
on it, but wouldn't we want
bit alike?
BALDWIN:
mean, I c
naybe it's
WILLIAMS:
BALDWIN:
things to
Extension
an't remember
rock.
It's got
Native stone
look a little
COMMISSIONER LETG:	I	think	that's
something that they -- in their --	in	their	design
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stuff. I mean, I think the overall look of the
overall facility is the criteria, so I think, yes.
I mean, you don't want one building looking one way
and then totally -- you know, and that I think is
why, you know, in here it describes all the
buildings that are on -- or structures that are on
that facility right now.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's up to
the design team to tiP them all together. Right?
MR. GONDECK: And that is one reason
why asking for the elevations is beneficial because
then you know what their thought process is --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.
MR. GONDECK: -- and if they're
intending to come out and provide something
nonaesthetic or if they really want to try to make
everything work and blend together.
We did within that try to tie in that we
do want to have the exhibit area -- means that
there's going to be a substantial amount of parking
on the Highway 27 side, plus there will probably be
some interconnecting activities between the exhibit
hall and the arena especially at fair times or
other times that we want to actually have the
entrances to the exhibit hall or the option to have
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the entrance from either side or from both sides
into the exhibit and banquet hall, and as we move
forward in that design, then we can distinguish
where we want that more recognizable entrance.
One of the requirements that I did place
in there -- and I'm not sure exactly where it is
here. We'll probably get down to it -- was the
outside to have a requirement in there for a
landscape around that area, and to have some sort
of little mall. I call it a mall, a patio area,
because if you're having conferencPS and other
things -- I know each of us may have vices. Some
people like to smoke still nowadays. It's best to,
you know, get them out and have an area outside of
the building to where you don't have people trying
to smoke inside the building and everything.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the
entrance is the north and the west side.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. Well,
he's also -- well, you're thinking about parking
coming in from the east, weren't you, from the --
off of 27 onto the eastern perimeter of the
grounds? Is that what you were doing?
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, the side
-- the way I would look at it, the side facing
Highway 27 is the north side, and the side facing
the arena is the west side.
MR. GONDECK: Actually by the
compass, it's sort of diagonal across the property.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.
MR. GONDECK: And that's why I -- I
probably chose the wrong one, but if we want to
call -- if we're going to say that, you know,
Highway 27 is east for our purposes, that's fine or
if we want to call it north -- if we want to call
east --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know
what it is.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm with
Letz. That's the -- the highway is on the north
side of that building.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
MR. GONDECK: Then I will --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's also on
the north of the -- the hog barn.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which has
just become the livestock barn.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. It's
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still a hog barn on this end of the table.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think just
using the directions to say the Highway 27 side and
the arena side.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's tine.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That way we
don't have confusion if it's --
MR. GONDECK: Well, but the little
map I had was sort of like, you know, Highway 27
was on the northeast side, so I --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can see that.
MR. GONDECK: -- I just made that
the wrong -- I turned the compass the wrong
direction, but it will work now.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's go.
MR. GONDECK: Requiring a minimum of
15 foot eave pipe and 2 and 12 slope minimum. They
may want to increase that, whatever, to help out
their engineering. We don't -- I don't think we'd
mind them going with a more steeper roof, but with
the amount of rains that we get, it's usually just
not good to go with less than 2 and 12. I know
that metal buildings can down to a quarter and 12,
but I'm not going to go there.
Interior space, it's going to be a clear
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area. You have several overhead, you know, large
door openings. The finished office space, we have
2,000 square foot. We have a 2,000 square foot
storage area that both have access to large doors
to the exterior and interior.
The catering kitchen, we went back and
forth ou the number of meals here. There had been
some discussion about 1,000 as far as a sitting
banquet. If it's a catering kitchen, ~nr_e you get
to a thousand, you might as well bump up a little
more, give yourself some more room so that if you
could come in and have a large function, it could
be outdoors. Let's go ahead and just set it up for
3,000.
JUDGE HENNEKE: I wasn't under the .
impression that we were providing that full kitchen
facility.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do what?
JUDGE HENNEKE: I didn't think we
were providing that full kitchen facility under our
design.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A catering
kitchen, to me, is, I mean --
MR. GONDECK: Where you have the
tables. You have water. You have prep tables
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where you come in and, you know, set up your --
your -- you bring your bulk food and can set up
your plates from there.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Okay. All
right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not a cooking
kitchen.
MR. GONDECK: Whether or not -- if
you have a rewarming stove in there or not, we're
not in this contract going to have any equipment in
here_ We will come up with the space to make it,
you know, functional, but we're just telling them
that we're going to rough in for the plumbing and
the electrical, so that as you want to furnish it
out, you can do that.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: Restroom facilities
for a thousand people, again, has the same
requirements, and then we do require them to have
the mechanical heating. Basically we want them to
be able to deal with that thousand-person capacity
there also, and that's handled more under the
mechanical code, so we don't get into actual
degrees.
Illumination, as we said, 20-foot
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candles. We are going to have them to provide for
video and projection type of setups but not the
equipment, and we are going to have them provide a
PA or audible audio system in there.
Arena building -- and y'all stop me. I
know we have a lot to go through, so stop me if you
have questions. Otherwise I'm just going to keep
going.
Arena building, basically we gave them a
description. One of the big requirements on there,
and we've already referenced it before is the
accessibility requirements. They are going to have
to come in and evaluate that from their design
professionals' point of view. We have told them
that up front, and in looking at that, we can look
at how much that interior that we want with either
walks or paving or concrete outside of the arena,
but you are going to have to make it accessible to
the arena.
Upgrade on the electrical, and, again,
there are some areas that are fairly dim in there
on the perimeters. we want to get that to about
10-foot candles and also make sure that we replace
all the electrical that does not meet code.
The existing ventilation system, we want
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that modified to where they do have sufficient
intake. We've got exhaust fans, but, really, the
intake doesn't work when the doors are closed, so
that's what we need to have them look at. We've
given them a minimum criteria on that.
And then on the insulation, we're going
to allow them to either repair it or replace it on
the ceiling and to provide new wall installation --
insulation and have that protected up to eight
feet.
Site Improvements --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wayne,
before you get away from --
MR. GONDECK: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have we had
any discussions about seating in the old arena?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Should we
have discussions about seating in the old arena?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think
that if we did any -- from my point of view would
be if you did any seating, you'd do temporary
bleachers.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Temporary or
permanent?
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Temporary,
because once you get permanent up, you're -- that's
-- that space is gone for hog pens.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're going
to have concrete floors outside the arena fence, I
think I just read through here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think I
would go to temporary bleachers.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just move
them out and use that space for something else.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, you can
walk around. You know, it's more flexible to me.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cheaper.
MR. GONDECK: Site improvements,
one, to look at refinishing the exterior --
existing paving with a chip seal coat, and then to
have them come up with a parking layout and
striping that, you know, is efficient and good flow
to it.
And then for the additional parking of up
to 600 additional vehicles, and, again, they would
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lay this out in an arrangement that serves the new
building structures and existing.
The lighting to be provided in all areas
with a minimum one-foot candle. That's basically
to where you can see the ground as you're walking
to the car, but you have a large area out there
that we're looking at paving, but that is a good
minimum standard on that.
We do also want them to be able to cut --
have that switched to where they not all have to
come on at one time, so when you don't have events,
that you can section that off if you only need
lighting over at this point here.
And then we've asked them to come up with
recommendations on signage -- both building signage
and site signage, and then there was some
discussion on whether or not there was to be any
fencing, and I just put that in there that the
owner still may request additional proposals on
fencing.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Any questions
about the design criteria?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pretty
thorough.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions about
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any of the packages?
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I move we
approve it with the changes as noted today.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by
Commissioner Griffin. Second by Commissioner
Williams that the Court approve the request for
qualifications as presented and amended which
request includes the advertisement and request and
the design criteria package.
Any questions or comments?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a
comment. I'm going to vote no, and I want to tell
you why one more time, and that is I think that
we're rushing into this. I think that we should
wait and allow the City to have time to make
decisions in their participation in it, and they
need to participate in it. They're the
beneficiaries of the facility, and once again
you're going to find that I'm right in the end, so
I'm going to vote no on this one.
JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Any
other questions or comments? All in favor raise
your right hand. No, the same sign. Motion
carries.
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You will provide a full set of the
revised RFQ for the Judge's office?
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir.
JUDGE HENNEKE: For the
Commissioners and Judge's office?
MR. GONDECK: Yes. I will provide
y'all with copies of, you know, those minor changes
that we had, and, again, I would just ask that
those not be distributed from here, and that we
distribute them from our office just so that we can
keep track of who's where, and --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If people call,
you'll have them Monday, Tuesday, next week?
MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
We'll have them available on Monday.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: And, again, as far as
the advertisement, if I could just be notified when
that does get advertised.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay.
MR. GONDECK: I would hope that it
could go in Sunday, if possible. If not, Monday.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we don't have
a Sunday paper. We have a weekend paper, so maybe
our administrative assistant could go call the
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paper and see if we can get a dispensation for
tomorrow or, if not, reserve a place for Monday.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do we do that
or does the Clerk do that? Just a dumb question.
Do we do that?
MS. SOVIL: (Indicated.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tell the
Clerk you did it, please.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else with
Mr. Gondeck? If not, thank you very much, Wayne.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thanks,
Wayne. We appreciate it.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Let's go back
to the first item.
MR. GONDECK: That was the corrected
copies from Monday's meeting.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay.
We'll go back to the first item -- or
second item. The first item we tried to do -- it
was the second item on the agenda was consider and
discuss the establishment of a County Park Board
and appointments to such Board if required.
Mr. Motley, Mr. Miller was explaining to
us that you may have a different opinion as to the
County's ability to lease this property directly to
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the Arts & Crafts Fair Board; is that correct?
MR. MOTLEY: Well, no. I don't -- I
don't necessarily have a different opinion. I
You know, the statute is pretty
clear that the County cannot directly lease
something to somebody unless one of several --
unless by auction, sealed bid, or one of several
other named exceptions, and I think that the
statute that the Court cited in its memo is
probably adequate for one of those exceptions.
I've not found any case or AG opinion
that says as much, but it does say that in 320.044
that the board or -- the term "board" can also
refer to Commissioners Court acting with the same
authority and performing the same function. "The
Board may enter a contract, including a lease or
other agreement, with any person as the board
considers necessary or convenient to carry out the
purposes and powers granted this the chapter,
including a contract connected with, incident to,
or affecting the acquisition, financing,
construction, equipment, maintenance, or operation
of a facility located or to be located in or
pertaining to a park under its control."
To me, it's fairly broad. I had some
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concern about the statute in the sense that the
County does not have authority to enter into such a
lease, but yet the County has authority to create
such a body or assume such functions itself and
then presume -- if my theory was correct, and then
go ahead and enter into such a lease, and I thought
that seemed a little bit unusual given the Canales
case and such.
But I did some more researching since,
and it does not say in here that the County -- I
mean, the board or the Commissioners acting as a
board can do these leases only if they go through
the auction or bidding process. So it seems to me
that they've eliminated that language
intentionally.
I looked through several other similar
statutes which pertain to park boards in coastal
communities, and some of the writing about that
specifically indicated that they did not have to
enter into -- they were exempt from the auction or
bidding procedures, and the language is virtually
identical to this.
So I think that this is one way that we
can go. I never really intended for the Court to
create a board just so the Court could assume those
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powers and handle it themselves and would have the
power to work on this park or this recreational
facility, we could call it, and address other
recreational matters or park matters, you know,
have the power to do that as well.
This can also be -- this project can be
tied in with the project that the Court just
referenced and have an outside component to sort of
develop along with the inside component and have
sort of a total package.
The other thing that the Court had asked
is if I had concern about whether or not the use of
public land -- being public land or a public park
or recreational area would cause any difficulty to
the Arts & Crafts people in conducting their fair
there and being able to restrict people that are
charging admission, I think is the import of it,
and I really didn't find a lot in the way of case
law on that.
But just thinking about it, I think every
community in the state probably has some sort of a,
you know, Crawfish Festival or Oatmeal Festival or
something, and they're always on some sort of
public property, and they have to charge admission.
I think specifically about the Houston Astrodome is
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built on Harris County land, and the Houston Sports
Association has a lease with Harris County to
operate that facility, and a lot of times those
agreements are based around the concept of
concessions, and so it just seemed to me almost
common sense that such a thing would have to be the
case.
However, I have found a case that
indicated that -- it's called the Sullivan case,
and it comes about as close -- Sullivan vs. Andrews
County, and it's a 1974 case out of the Court of
Appeals and it -- Civil Appeals in El Paso, and it
basically says in here the fact that it's public
land being used for a private purpose.
This had to do with the County's purchase
of a doctors' office which was next door to a
county hospital, to purchase that and then lease it
back to the doctors, and the question was asked
whether that was sort of an illegal loan of credit,
but also the issue was raised about use of that
public property for a private, you know,
money-raising sort of a purpose; and the Court
there upheld that -- that type of an arrangement,
and so I -- to me, the idea of whether you can use
a public piece of ground to have some sort of a
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festival or cultural event and charge for it may be
so obvious that it's one of those things that they
don't directly address in the statutes, because I
can't find it in the statutes anywhere in
particular.
I know that David Brooks, who we all read
a lot, is the author of a series of books or a
volume, two volumes in the County and Special
District Law in the Texas Practice Series says that
"so long as a county is complying with applicable
statutory provisions regarding the manner in which
the property is leased, there should not be a
constitutional question with respect to leasing
such property to private concerns for nonpublic
uses," and it says -- "in other words, the use of
public property leased by private entities need not
be restricted to a public purpose." So I think
that's probably about as close as I'm going to get
as authority on the question that the Court did
ask.
Let me also say that I think there are
other ways to achieve, and I've already talked to
Commissioner Letz about it. I don't want to say
that this Parks Board and the functions of the
Parks Board is the only way that I saw.
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When I first started working on this, it
was my understanding that time was of the essence.
I thought that perhaps that was the quickest way to
get it done and to have that land designated as a
recreational area today to adopt Chapter 320 and
proceed, but I can see ways whereby proper posting
of notices or requests for proposals that this can
be done either by auction or sealed bid and could
achieve exactly what the Court wants.
I might request, and I'm going to get
with Mr. Miller on the specifics, but generally
speaking, I think that maybe a 40-year lease is
probably pushing it as far as the length of it, but
perhaps a 20-year lease with a right to re-lease
for another 20 might be a little more acceptable.
And the issue of mowing, perhaps instead
of having that figured into the compensation
formula, we pull that out and say that we will
provide mowing services when requested at our cost
and to be paid within, whatever, 30 days or
something after they're provided, and that way we
wouldn't have to be -- because the County may have
-- and the reason I say "at our cost," it is still
the County's -- the underlying stake in that
property is still the County's, but after however
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many years or when the lease terminates, that land
will still be the County's.
So it does seem like perhaps the County
may have some responsibility to care for the mowing
and such, but they would -- they would say that
they would let them know when they want it mowed;
and rather than have this formula, they would just
-- when they wanted to mow, they're going to
purchase a tractor. When they want t~ mow, they'll
mow or maybe the County would do it if they would
ask the County to pay them in 30 days the actual
cost of what it would be for the County to do. I
think that's a nice substitute for that other
formula, and I can't think of anything else. If
y'all have questions, I can try to answer them.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What did he
say?
MR. MOTLEY:
going to put you in charge
COMMISSIONER
mean we have to adopt --
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
I said, Buster, we're
~f the hog barn.
GRIFFIN: Does that
LETZ: Chapter 320.
GRIFFIN: -- if we
adopt?
MR. MOTLEY: Yeah, 320. Correct.
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JUDGE HENNEKE: I think the action
today is -- is for the Commissioners Court, if
we're so inclined, to adopt Chapter 320 as it
relates to the seven-acre tract of land, more or
less, immediately west of the Kerr County
Agriculture Extension office site extending to the
westernmost boundary of our property, and then we
can come back on the 12th and approve the lease
under that authority with the Arts & Crafts Board.
MR. MOTLEY: Your Honor, we do also
have the written property descriptions so if the
Court wants to make records to denote the County
Surveyor's description, we do have that already.
COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second.
JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by
Commissioner Griffin and seconded by Commissioner
Letz that the Court adopt Chapter 320 of the Texas
Local Government Code as it relates to that certain
seven-acre tract of land immediately to the west of
the Kerr County Agriculture Extension office, the
legal description to be provided by the County
Surveyor.
Any questions or comments? If not, all
in favor raise your right hand. All the same sign.
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Motion carries.
Anything else today, gentlemen?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tivy fight
never dies.
(Commissioners Court adjourned at
2:36 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS X
COUNTY OF KERR X
I, Lisa C. Greenwalt, Deputy Official
Court Reporter in and for the County Court of Kerr
County, State of Texas, do hereby certify that the
above and foregoing contains a true and correct
transcription of what occurred in open session and
were reported by me.
WITNESS MY OFFICIAL, HAND this the ~~
day of 2002.
~/ l~'~r~~ Q~ Q~~ ~/LUJ~J
LISA C. GREENWALT, CSR 6067
Expiration Date: 12/31/03
Greenwalt Court Reporting
P.O. Box 294191
Kerrville, Texas 78029-4191
(830) 537-4223
GREENWALT COURT REPORTING
(830) 537-4223
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