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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Workshop
Monday, May 19, 2003
9:00 a.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
PARKS AND RECREATION MASTER PLAN
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4

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On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 9:00 a.m., a workshop of
the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville,
Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. It's a bit aft-.Pr 9:00
on May the 19th, Monday, workshop posted for this date.
I'll call to order the workshop called for the purpose of
reviewing first draft revisions to the Kerr County Parks and
Recreation Master Plan. I believe this balloon was launched
at the request of Commissioner Williams.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I sent that balloon
right up in the air, Judge, and this can be as long or as
short as we want to make it, I guess, like all the rest of
them. But the purpose is to attempt to refresh our Master
Plan and attempt to shape for adoption -- permanent
adoption, hopefully, listing some priorities and things that
we'd like to have. And that's really what I'd like this
morning from my colleagues here, is your -- your questions,
if you have them, your comments, additions or subtractions
from the plan so we can make it better and get it done.
JUDGE TINLEY: Let me see if I understand
correctly.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here comes my helper.
JUDGE TINLEY: I see. Here comes the heavy
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lifter, huh?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here comes the heavy
lifter.
JUDGE TINLEY: It's my understanding that for
the purpose of obtaining various and sundry grants or other
types of recognition that -- that may be desired, that there
must be a current plan in place, good, bad, or otherwise,
but there must be an officially adopted current plan in
place; is that correct?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's my
understanding, Judge.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Beyond that, it goes --
you have to have what you're looking for in the plan. Like,
if you're going out for a grant for a walking trail, if you
don't have walking trails mentioned, you're not getting a
walking trail. So, I mean, it is important that -- you
know, that it's -- we try to have some idea as to where --
what we're looking at in the future and have that mentioned
in the plan.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that's one of the
-- that's an excellent point, Jon, and it's one of the
reasons for this. And you will note that in the priorities,
we're listing a -- an arts park, which is being developed on
our property at -- at the exhibit center grounds,
fairgrounds, and that has to be listed as something we'd
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like	to	see developed or	those	folks will be	powerless	to go
out	and	find any money -	- grant	money. So,	that's in	there
as well.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Arts and Crafts Fair?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the two entities I
know require this are Texas Parks and Wildlife and L.C.R.A.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The two principal
grantors of parks money.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Letz'
comment about needing to have the specific details in here,
we found out firsthand with Parks and Wildlife in Austin;
they just kind of tossed us out of the office.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: First time around?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, boy, it was tough.
Very, very tough.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a difficult process.
I don't envy anybody working on that side of the grant
process. It can be difficult with them. But, anyway --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill, I have a
specific question.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: On Page 12.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And don't get the
thought that I'm witch-hunting or anything. I'm just
simply -- I mean, it's a real, live question.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In the goals and
objectives, that first one, what is -- what are your -- in
your mind, what is a festive grounds facility?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Festival.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Festival grounds
facility.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's -- that's what
we're -- what's being developed up above at the arts park by
the Arts and Crafts. But you may recall, there's been
several discussions throughout the years about the need for
a festival grounds where various and sundry outdocr-type
activities can be conducted in a nice, good setting,
well-grounded setting that has amenities and facilities and
so forth. For lack of a better word, I used that word. If
somebody has a better way to define it, then let's do that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine. I just
wanted to make sure that I understood what it was. And
then, in the next part of the objectives, the revised
five-year master plan, the parks survey that you have here,
I notice -- let's see, the first line in this -- on this
document, "Continue surveying the recreational needs of Kerr
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County citizens and prioritize them." I'm assuming that
this is --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're going to do
that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- that. As I was
looking at that, I noticed that there were all the parks,
not just County-owned property, but the -- the State Parks
and wildlife facility out past Hunt -- I can't -- what's the
name of that thing?
MS. BURDITT: Wildlife Management.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wildlife Management
Area, whatever it is. I noticed it was on there, and all
the City parks, and -- and how does that relate to -- or
what -- how does that relate to this plan? And, more
specific, how does it relate to Kerr County parks system?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it really is --
it is an assessment or an inventory, if you will, of all the
various parks available to the people of Kerr County, even
though they may not be owned by Kerr County. And so, when
Sudie and I were doing this, we looked at the one that was
done, what, five, six, seven years ago. It, too, had a -- a
major inventory and a map that identified all the various
parks, even though they're not Kerr County-owned parks. And
so we went through and we thought of everything, and if we
thought of something we thought was missing, we added it. I
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think Kerr Wildlife was one of them we added. It's just an
inventory, basically.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just used Kerr
Wildlife as an example.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that correct,
Sadie? That's what we did?
MS. BURDITT: Yes. And total answering of
that question, the National Recreation and Park Association
has a document that's called Recreation, Park, and Open
Space Standards and Guidelines, and we've used it in here
twice or three times as a source for documentation of the
quantity and type of space needed for recreation. The
citizen does not care who owns the recreation area. They're
looking for the quantity of space they need to do their
activity. And we also list the Little League fields and the
soccer fields and so forth, and even though they have their
own associations, they are public open space or
parks/recreation space for the citizens of the county,
whether they live in Ingram, Center Point, Kerrville, or --
or out in the unincorporated areas. So, it does -- it
doesn't matter when you're adding up the acres or the types
of playgrounds, swimming pools, whatever in the county.
It's the total asset available to the citizen that you're
looking for.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Regardless of
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ownership.
MS. BURDITT: Regardless of ownership.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And how does -- let's
pretend I'm Billy Bob Stewart and I'm a horseshoer, and I
understand the Commissioners Court's adopting a Kerr County
Park Plan. And I come into the courthouse and I say,
"Commissioner Williams, I'd like to see your park plan."
And I see this list, and I want to know how that relates to
Kerr County's Park Plan. Maybe -- I see what you're saying.
I see these parks and properties are inside Kerr County, but
I'm -- I'm referring to the government entity of Kerr County
that we're responsible for.
MS. BURDITT: And you think Billy Bob is
looking at it from where his county tax dollars are going?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where is it? Is it in
there? I mean, how does it relate to the Commissioners
Court responsibility?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, if you're going
to use -- use this as a presentation to L.C.R.A. or Texas
Parks and Wildlife, it serves the purpose that they state
that they want it to, as to what's available in Kerr County,
regardless of --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. It's one of
those, okay. That explained it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we could even go
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a little further on that. As an example, I don't know if
it's on -- at one point it was in the Flat Rock plan.
The -- if you're going to put a -- like, a walking trail in
Flat Rock, it got mere points if it was going to connect to
a walking trail in the city. We didn't get the money for
either one of them -- well, I guess the City got some of
theirs. But, I mean, it shows the fact that they want to
see how the County facilities interact with the other
facilities in the county. And, like -- and if you -- you
know, like, if there's, you know, Little League fields right
there, well, they're not going to be real inclined, I don't
think, to give a grant for some other organization to build
a bunch of little -- little youth baseball fields, you know,
across the road from it. I mean, so they don't really care,
you know, from an inventory standpoint as to who owns it.
We care because of what we operate; where our financial, you
know, leanings go. But have I some comments if you're done.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm through. For a
while.
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
the third dot is, "Acquire
new recreation facilities."
the third and fourth are --
LETZ: On that same page --
WILI.IAMS : Uh-huh?
LETZ: -- in the first section,
lark lands for the development of
And then, on the objectives,
one is identify lands and one is
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acquire properties. I'm a little uncomfortable of -- I
mean, I don't see -- if somebody wants to donate property, I
can see that we -- that's something for us to consider, but
I just don't see, in the near future, us acquiring any more
park land, other than through -- possibly through donation.
I don't mind leaving them in here, but I think, just from a
-- a goals standpoint, I would want us to move "Acquire park
lands" to lower on that list, because when people look at
things -- at least when I look at things, the higher it is
on the list, the higher priority I think it has. And I
think that's a low priority item.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right.
COMMISSTONER LETZ: And so I would say that
on both those items, to move them towards the bottom,
because I just don't see that, with our current budget
situation, that we're going to be out actively --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I'm sure, in
terms of budget --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But you're not saying
completely remove it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. I don't mind them
being there. If somebody wants to donate, T think it's
something we want to look at. And the other -- kind of, you
know, I guess related to that, one triing that has been
floating around since way before I've been a Commissioner is
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Tivy Mountain, and that is the -- that is one thing that I
would encourage, you know, the County and the City to try to
figure out and do something with. I mean, it's a beautiful
piece of property. It is suitable for a park-type setting,
if anyone can figure out who owns it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was just going to
ask that question. Do we know who owns it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't, and I have
never really gone into that at great length. And the
current group of City Council, from the mayor on down, I
don't think they have -- it was the prior mayor and the
prior counr_il_ that, you know, batted it around, trying to
figure out who owned it at one point. But it would be, I
think worthwhile to pursue that, because that is a piece of
property that somebody, City or County, would be nice to
develop.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, how would you
frame that? Work with the City to acquire Tivy Mountain for
development into a park or something like that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would just like to
determine who owns it. I can't see it's that hard to find
out who owns a piece of property. I mean --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, in all of our
infinite wisdom, seems like we could just declare it ours
and let's go on. Let somebody else figure it out from that
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point. We own it. Prove that we don't.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think, you know,
it's a -- it's a shame to let a piece of property like that
in the middle of town just be, you know, a cedar break.
Because --
MS. SOVIL: Doesn't the City have it blocked
off right now?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Yeah, they -- I
mean, the City clearly doesn't let anyone use it, other than
the Tivy High School; the seniors march up it. That's the
only function that I'm aware of that it's used for, is the
senior march up the road.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who put the fence up?
City?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, the City. They
think they own it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is the City
doing, fencing off our property?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good
question.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sounds like an adverse
possession issue to me.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think a good goal of
the park plan would be -- you know, I wouldn't mind putting
it point-blank, you know, to determine to do something with
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Tivy Mountain.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. We'll develop
a sentence and stick it in there on Page 12. You want -- in
addition to moving down under the goals, "Acquire park
lands," you wanted something likewise moved in the second
paragraph on objectives?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I think -- I think
the items --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The fourth dot?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Third and fourth.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Third and fourth,
okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Identify and acquire.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I really don't see the
difference between the third and fourth.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, there's
probably not a lot of difference, but I think we picked up
the format from the previous plan, which were goals and
objectives being two paragraphs.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And one of the reasons it
was probably like this in the last plan is because there
was -- just before or right during the acquisition of the
property just to the east of Flat Rock Park, which is the
bigger part, that was really the reason for this park plan,
was development of Flat Rock.
5-1~-03 workshop
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Anything else,
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No.
JUDGE TINLEY: Dave? Got something?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't have any --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What can you tell us
about that big park at the dam out there?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: An interesting point
that I don't think has much to do with what we do is that a
group of citizens there in Hunt got
sort of an organization, and bought
corner of 1340 and 39; 4, 5 acres.
quite a while. And the reason they
out of the possibility of developme
keep Hunt like -- like it is now.
together, formed some
that property at the
It's been for sale for
bought it is to take it
nt. They bought it to
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Didn't we just read
about that recently?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: May have. I didn't,
but I've talked to two or three of them.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that going to
remain in private ownership? Or --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think so. Nobody
came around and said, "We want to give this to you. Do you
want it?" So, I --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.

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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Of course, I presume
there's a cost to us if we take it. If we should take it,
it comes off the tax rolls, and it's a pretty valuable piece
of property.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So we don't want to
list it in the inventory.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No. Just to
reinforce what Commissioner Letz said, if we were
prioritizing the things we were going to spend money on for
the next year or two, unfortunately, I think this would come
down close to the bottom. It's going to have to be a
no-cyst or low-cost item on the budget, I would guess.
That's all right now.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. Everybody
comfortable with the inventory going in? See anything that
needs to go in or come out? It's a pull-out sheet.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have something I'm not
sure about on the inventory. For better or worse, and just
outside of Comfort, but in Kerr County, there are two -- I
don't know what you call them -- rodeo arenas that are
private, but they're heavily used. They're ones -- they're
almost right on both sides of Hermann Sons Road. And it's
for -- I guess it's termed as a Mexican-style rodeo. I
don't -- which I've never been to. I know there's big
bunches of people that go. I don't know whether it needs to
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even be here or not. It's recreation, but it's private.
MS. BURDITT: We didn't put anything that's
private.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. BURDITT: We do need input in that sheet
on our holes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Say again?
MS. BURDITT; We need input.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. BURDITT: We need to know the acres in
those blank spaces and what the facilities are.
COMMISSTONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Ingram City
Park and Ingram Lake Park, Dave. Middle way down the --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER
MS. BURDITT:
there. Is there swings? S
COMMISSIONER
need in terms of acreage?
MS. BURDITT:
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS:
And I nee
Tides?
NICHOLSON:
Close.
WILLIAMS:
Acreage count.
d anything that`s
How accurate do you
A seat-of-the-pants
estimate.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Close seat of the
pants.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's close, isn't
it?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that's pretty
close.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll ask the City
Council on Ingram City Park, and I'll get with Road and
Bridge and we'll estimate Ingram Lake Park.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: On Kerrville Little
League, --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- they have water
fountains. They have irrigation.
MS. BURDITT: Hang nn.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hold on a second.
They do have water fountains. And they have what,
irrigation?
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
should add the Comfort Litt
MS. BURDITT:
COMMISSIONER
LETZ: Irrigation.
WILLIAMS: Okay.
LETZ: And then also, probably
1e League.
IS it located in --
LETZ: It's in Kerr County on
Highway 27.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Comfort Little
League.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: And --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Cypress Park.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- Comfort Youth Baseball
Association.
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
near Cypress Park, okay?
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
MS. BURDITT;
COMMISSIONER
JUDGE TINLEY
WILLIAMS: Say that again?
LETZ: Comfort Youth Baseball.
WILLIAMS: We'll put it up there
LETZ: Okay.
WILLIAMS: That work?
LETZ: It's probably --
Is it leased from the County?
LETZ: It's owned by them.
Just inside of King's Salvage,
isn't it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right across from Hermann
Sons Road.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What would be the
acreage?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three. Three acres, I'd
say.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Three acres.
MS. BURDITT: Drinking water?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. Wastewater, yes.
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Lighting, yes. Water fountains, yes. Parking, yes.
Restrooms, yes. Sports facilities, yes. That would be it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Concessions?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Concessions, yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: It's got spectator seating,
too.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Spectator seating and
concessions.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do they have lighting?
They don't have lighting there. I think lighting --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Lighting's out?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. They don't have
any lights.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you say
restrooms?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They have restrooms.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. BURDITT: Good.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Take out the
lighting, okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where is Elm Creek Park?
JUDGE TINLEY: Over at the corner of Lois and
Methodist Encampment.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was thinking Comfort --
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Center Point area.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where is Knapp Park?
JUDGE TINLEY: Over across the river, I
think.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where the old Knapp
Crossing was? Is there a park over there?
MS. BURDITT: Mrtt-hmm, and boat ramps.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Public-awned?
MS. BURDITT: City of Kerrville.
JUDGE TINLEY: Actually, it's on this side.
MS. BURDITT: Right above Catfish King, right
above -- what do we call that restaurant?
JUDGE TINLEY: Right across from Walmart
where you go down the ramp, put in a boat.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then Richards
Park?
JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, boy.
MS. BURDITT: Off of -- over close to the
Salvation Army Lodge.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Really? And then
River Star Park?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's going to be
the new --
MS. BURDITT: That's what the Arts
Foundation -- Texas Arts and Crafts Foundation is calling
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their --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh.
MS. BURDITT: They'll have a great big huge
star.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, that's right,
yeah. And then Schultz Park, where is that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Schultz Park?
JUDGE TINLEY: Is that the one on Guadalupe
across from the back side of Take It Easy?
MS. BURDITT: No, that one's Guadalupe. This
one's off of Water Street and old West Main. It's over
there by --
JUDGE TINLEY: Westland.
MS. BURDITT: Well, there is a Westland and
it's the next one over. It's in that older -- that older
neighborhood. So, just a little, bitty -- well,
neighborhood park.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Knapp Park has to be
on the water somewhere. The old parks plan showed it had
swimming available and a boat ramp.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, there used to be
a road across the river right there called Knapp Crossing.
We used tc shoot doves.
MS. BURDITT: There's two of those right
there, Cypress Park and Knapp Park. And I actually took
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swimming out. I think I did it on purpose there. That
would be a dangerous place to swim.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Riverside Nature Center?
Is that not a -- well, that's, I guess, not a park.
JUDGE TINLEY: Nonprofit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But is it -- I guess it's
mentioned somewhere else? I would think -- it seems to me
it's a recreation facility, to me, whether it's nonprofit or
not.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is.
MS. BURDITT: Well, until we put Comfort
Youth Baseball in, all of these were either owned by the
City or the County or the State, or were leased from the
County, City, or State.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Riverside Nature
Center doesn't fall into that.
MS. BURDITT: Riverside Nature Center doesn't
fall into that. Comfort Youth Baseball doesn't fall into
that if they own it themselves. But I'm correct, am I not?
The Kerrville Litt1P League leases from the County?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes.
MS. BURDITT: And Hill Country Youth Soccer
leases from --
JUDGE TINLEY: City.
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MS. BURDITT: -- the City?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. You don't have
Ingram Little League on here either, so they're private.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Should we add Comfort
or nit?
MS. BURDITT: Well, we just. need some
guidelines, 'cause if we add -- if we -- if we go out one
more step, then, yes, Riverside Nature Center comes in.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And Ingram does.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And -- well, I
mean, it can -- I think you need to define, you know --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do we asterisk them,
put this in with an asterisk, Sudie, a footnote,
"Recreational" -- they are owned by recreational
associations or something like that?
JUDGE TINLEY: Nonprofit. And you can pull
in Riverside, far as that goes.
MS. BURDITT; We11, we`ll actually pull in a
whole bunch more. We can do a second sheet that pulls in
all of those that are -- that are owned by nonprofits.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, let`s see what
that entails. We may want to do that, leave this one the
way it is; then just a note that government-affiliated --
Dave, if you'd get the acreage on the Ingram Little League?
JUDGE TINLEY: That's Alexander --
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MS. BURDITT: I still need that Center Point
one, too. Center Point Historical Park.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't know that.
I got to get that one. I've got an "X" by it.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we start
expanding that, ttie not-for-profit, we might pick up -- I'm
thinking we'd probably pick up Mo Ranch. It's a huge
recreation area owned by the Presbyterian church.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a point.
That's a point that might make us not want to do that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's what I'm
saying.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, any of the camps --
H.E.B. Camp.
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
to leave it government.
MS. BURDITT:
Historical Park, that's not
COMMISSIONER
that's right. That's a pri~
have to pull that.
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
WILLIAMS: Lion's Camp.
LETZ: I don't know. We ought
If you got Center Point
Kerr County. That's private.
WILLIAMS: Well, that's --
gate association also. So we may
BALDWIN: Which one?
LETZ: Center Point Historical
Park.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the one in the
middle of town that they're developing; they acquired the
acreage.
JUDGE TINLEY: The old Legion building there
that they've renovated.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there a reason we
don't have the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center on here? I
mean, it's not a park, but they use the grounds, obviously,
for -- as recreation, and clearly use it for a Kerr County
park -- I mean county fair.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Put it down that way.
Want to?
MS. BURDITT: WP11, you didn't -- I had it on
here. You pulled it. We separated out the polo fields.
Polo fields are on here.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's put it back in
here. I didn't know I took it out of there.
JUDGE TINLEY: And in lieu of the polo
fields, just put in the --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Cut the polo --
MS. BURDITT: I have the polo fields and
River Star, which takes the acreage on both ends. And that
was why you were saying pull it, because the center part of
it --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't we just
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expand the definition there; say Hill Country Youth Exhibit
Center and polo fields, and add the whole acreage on that
one line. All right?
MS. BURDITT:
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
important to have -- may be
master park plan if we deci~
improvement-wise.
Okay.
WILLIAMS: Okay.
LETZ: I think it would be
beneficial to have it in the
~e to do anything out there,
JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So I think that's a --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This would take us up
to what? We have 65 acres, and we're leasing out 6 and a
half or 7?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Seven.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 7.7, okay. So, we'll
just change that 20 to whatever everything -- 65, less 7.7.
Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And going -- and
following up on what I just said, we need to go back under
the goals and mention something about the Hill Country Youth
Exhibit Center if we do choose to g~ with grants.
JUDGE TINLEY: Not a bad idea at all.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have it at least
mentioned in there as an upgrade of the Hill Country Youth
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Exhibit Center.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good.
JUDGE TINLEY: Expand facilities and
capabilities of use of the Hill Country Youth Exhibit
Center.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, that or upgrade.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What page is that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anything. As long as
it's mentioned, it doesn't make a difference.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Which -- would you add
some verbiage about the -- let's see, what do we call it
this week?
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
remember what we called it.
your building that you're g~
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
LETZ: Heliport? Escalator?
BALDWIN: No, the -- I can't
What do you want to call it,
ping to have meetings in?
LETZ: Events center.
BALDWIN: Events center.
WILLIAMS: You've got to be
quick, mister.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're going to have
that verbiage in there somewhere? Along with --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a different
item, if you add it. I mean, you wouldn't -- to me, the
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exhibit censer -- we don't -- we need to separate the two.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's fine.
MS. BURDITT: It doesn't meet L.C.R.A. or --
or Parks and Wildlife.
JUDGE TINLEY: I was thinking more of a
general category of, "Expand and enhance facilities and
capabilities of tYie Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center
complex."
MS. BURDITT: For recreation.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I just think you leave
it open-ended. That way, you got your bases covered.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, we'll do it.
Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This weekend -- one
of the weekends, I've seen the use of the Guadalupe River,
at least part of it, traveling from Ingram to Hunt, 10 miles
out 1340. Every crossing, we had no place to park, cars
everywhere, trucks in the river -- seven or eight trucks in
the river at one location, trash all over the place. I love
to see people using it, enjoying them, but it's -- we don't
have a way to provide services like that. Somehow or
another, there's a better way to do that. And I'm just
identifying a problem, I`m not proposing the solution. And
I just traveled part of it. I'm sure alI over the county
it's the same thing.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah. There
were -- Louise Hays Park was full of people. Even Center
Point Park was full of people.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mostly private
crossings, low water crossings, people somehow find a way to
trespass or get their vehicles in the river.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If the Legislature
ever finds its way back to work --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Bet that bill was
lost.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- that bill might
take new life.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll bet it`s one
that was lost at midnight last Thursday.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Richard, ycu
were here for some -- to tell us something?
MR. FERRIS: Well, pardon me. I was here
specifically for Flat Rock Park. I am a representative of
the Hill Country Chili Classic, We have held the event
now -- this being our second year, we know somewhere in the
plans that -- that had been mentioned of restrooms and
possible additional lighting, and T was coming to try to
hear what that might be, and then also find out if there was
some way that maybe we could help you with something. We --
that we raise some funds. We've given the Turtle Creek
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Volunteer Fire Department $2,000 this year from the
proceeds. We have a little wish list; again, get the
electricity expanded to a broader spectrum, restrooms, and
ideally a stage up on the hill where you did bring in the
power, where it hopefully should be out of the floodplain.
Maybe -- maybe we could go out and get funds and build that
to a -- to specifications or something. We're open. Fifty
years -- 50 years ago, the Kerrville Jaycees built Louise
Hays Park in a day in 1954. Maybe in 2004, we can do
someth~ng at Flat Rock Park.
JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate your interest
and your desire.
MR. FERRIS: It's a great facility. And if
that bridge ever gets built or something to the other part
cf it -- which, of course, that -- I'm sure that's way down
the road, but that's probably one of the prettiest parks in
the county that has been kind of ignored until three years
ago, two and a half years ago, when you went in and cleaned
it all up and made it something to really be proud of. It
Baas pretty trashy.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The bridge from one
section of Flat Rock to the other is not as far away as you
think, because this leads over -- Commissioner Letz and I
are going to go out there and look on Riverside Drive, see
if we can find a better way to get from the original section
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to the new section. There's some interesting -- land swap
or something like that, or easement swap or whatever. So,
we've got to look into that. Improvements to Flat Rock Lake
Park are embodied in the goals and objectives, although it
doesn't say specifically. We still have some funds
available from the L.C.R.A. grant for the purpose of
building restrooms. I don't know if we have enough funds
available. We have some funds available.
MS. BURDITT: Could I read what we have in
here in relationship to Flat Rock? On Page 24, "In addition
to the evidence this data provided for establishing
priorities for the county, several additional factors were
considered." And the second bullet under that is, "Flat
Rock Lake Park needs amenities such as lighting,
playgrounds, picnic tables, trash cans, restrooms, playing
fields, cooking grills, swimming areas," and so forth. And
then, in the grid that we did on Page 25, Schedule for
Implementation of Master Plan Priorities -- now, again, this
is a draft -- 2004 to 2006, complete development of Flat
Rock Lake Park, main section. Park facilities will include,
number one, picnic area/restrooms, 20 scattered tables with
grills. Two, playgrounds. Three, swimming areas. Fishing
areas, playing -- four, playing fields. One additional boat
ramp, and hike and bike trails. Now you're discussing a
stage, and that's not on here, so that's --
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about
a stage coming out of the -- on the slope that goes up to
Riverside Drive?
MR. FERRIS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that what you're
talking about?
JUDGE TINLEY: On the high side there.
MR. FERRIS: On the high side, maybe a third
of the way up the hill. We'd stand on that, and you're
above and you're playing towards the river. I mean, that --
I don't know whether that would be a priority for other
events or not. It is for us, and anybody -- we have a
street dance that's really a street dance, and those
trailers are sitting there on the park on the hillside, and
they're pretty precarious. I'm afraid someone's going to
get hurt. But I don't know that that could be a -- would be
a top priority. I'm sure the lighting and restrooms would
be much more so, but -- so I said maybe we'd contribute to
that stage part of it if it doesn't fit in your plan.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I'm sure we
could add it. Even if -- if you folks are willing to assist
in future funding down the line, ~r provide the funding,
that's -- that would be entertained as well. That's welcome
news.
MR. FERRIS: I may be talking out of line
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here. I'm one representative, but -- but if we want you to
do something, we should be able to give something back.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Although it may not
benefit the Chili Appreciation Society in terms of outdoor
stage, an outdoor stage is planned in the Star Park above,
by the Texas Arts and Crafts people. They plan an outdoor
stage up there. That may not benefit you, though.
MR. FERRIS: We're not talking about a huge
stage.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Put a question.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're really talking
almost more about -- sounds like, you know, a cut and make
it level and pour concrete slab.
MR. FERRIS: Either a cut or wood frame, pier
and beam, so that it would be level on the upper side and
just come out with a dropoff. So -- put the posts in there
and, like I say, make it of adequate construction.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Either cut and pour or
pier up front. Either way, I mean, you know, it's not a
major expense, I don't think.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't think so.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think on Page 25, Bill,
I would separate out picnic area from the restrooms.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Separate what, Jon?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: On Item Number 1, you
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have "Picnic Area/Restrooms." I think restrooms need to be
a separate item, and I think it's because of the funds we
have available from L.C.R.A. and the cost of those
restrooms.
MS. BURDITT: Make it number one.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Make it number one,
and --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I don't -- well, my
thought would almost be to go to L.C.R.A. I think you're
right; I don't think we can build the restrooms that are
needed with the money -- the $15,000, plus or minus, that's
left. But I know L.C.R.A. wants us to use the funds up for
their accounting purposes, and our accounting purposes. The
other thing that we didn't -- have not done under the grant
were picnic tables. It may be better to put in the concrete
picnic tables and get those done with the money we have
left, and then look -- and put off the restrooms altogether
for a while, or maybe you can do part of -- you know, get
the sewer line at least dug over to where we're going to put
the restrooms, and then whatever's left over, do the picnic
tables, you know. 'Cause I just -- L.C.R.A. would like to
get that cleaned up. I think I -- we need to do that. If
you have one priority here, I think restrooms first, or
picnic area first, either way. But I think L.C.R.A. is
probably very agreeable to letting us do what we need to do
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to use those founds.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What we could do,
Sudie, is make priority one restrooms. Take -- and put
picnic areas-slash-playgrounds in the second position. Does
that work?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That works.
JUDGE TINLEY: But what -- or your point is
that we can probably, more quickly and economically, with
funds we have available, do the picnic tables?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do the picnic tables.
JUDGE TINLEY: Get that done, get this
resolved satisfactorily, makinq sure the funds are used up,
they can be accounted for, and everybody moves on.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My experience in
Center Point Park with picnic tables and slabs has been -- I
got -- I've been getting them from Drymala over there, and
he pours them and brings them over and sets them on the
concrete slab. The combination of the table and the slab --
table and benches and slab has been running anywhere from
$1,000 to $1,200 per. So, we've got $15,000, so we could
probably put in 10 or 12 of them, or maybe more.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If he gets that big an
order, he might put the price down to $800.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm still trying to
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convince him to do two more for $500 apiece right r.ow. He
hasn't gotten back to me.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a way -- and
the other thing we could do with those funds, there would be
enough to at least put the extension in underground from the
city, put the tap in, and put it over where the restrooms
are going, 'cause that's pretty much set, 'cause the utility
poles are there. Get that part of it done, and I think
L.C.R.A. would agree to fund that portion. And then --
'cause that's probably, you know, $10,000 -- $5,000, $10,000
possibly to get that -- or $5,000 to get that sewer line
running and the tap put in.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, do sewer line and
five tables? Is that what you're saying?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Something like that.
Sewer line and as many tables as we can buy.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like that idea a lot
better. Seems like we're moving.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Moving towards --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're getting more
done. Can you -- if my memory serves me, the -- the
L.C.R.A. moneys are earmarked, I mean, for specifically
restrooms. They will go back and change that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The grant has both tables
and restrooms. I think the Court has also -- I think we put

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restrooms as a higher priority, but if we don't have the
money to do the restrooms, you know, I think we can do it on
something. But I think we ought to work it out with
L.C.R.A., because doing the sewer lines, that's part of the
restrooms. I think that's probably not what they have in
mind, but I think they will be, you know, willing to work
with us.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In your mind, how far
away is that sewer line, the city sewer line, from where we
plan to put the restrooms?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe 50 feet, 75 feet,
something like that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're going to have
to have talks with the City about the --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm in charge of getting
free taps for everything, forever.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Put this one on the
table with that one, right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But -- and that's
another good pcint; just go ahead, while I'm discussing it
with the City, let's get all these taps put in.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Memorialized forever.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In looking around
25 ~ trying to find a restroom facility that made some sense, you
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suggested a couple things I should do. I went to Bill
Tucker of TexDOT. He says, "You don't want our plans;
they're too expensive to do." I went to the City, and they
said -- I said, "Who's got the plan for the one over on
Thompson Drive that goes in Louise Hays Park?" He said,
"Well, Dennis Kneese." IIe said, "I think I can find it,"
but he hasn't found it. Then they told me that Franklin
Johnston's the one that drew up that plan. So, you know,
hello. So, I don't know. I should get hold of Franklin,
see what he says.
MS. BURDITT: On Page 12, where we're talking
about our partners in different projects, can we add the
Kerrville Chili Classic as a partner in that document?
We're saying service, social, and civic groups, Texas State
Arts and Crafts Foundation, L.C.R.A., County and City, dah,
dah, dah. But if we've got a specific partner, like we
already had with Texas State Arts and Crafts Foundation, we
put them in here. Why not go ahead and put the Kerrville
Chili Classic?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rather than name
them, why not just change the second -- instead of private
foundation, say private foundation and association grants.
MS. BURDITT: Well, we have service, social,
and civic groups down next to the last.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
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MS. BURDITT: So, I mean, the Chili Classic
would -- would meet in there. But part of what they want to
see is community involvement, so if you can name them, it's
good.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You think your
organization would object to being named?
MR. FERRIS: We have a meeting first Tuesday
of next month, which is, what, two weeks?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two weeks.
MR. FERRIS: From today.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd like to have a first
reading, second reading -- or a public hearing. We're not
doing first and second reading, but public hearing.
JUDGE TINLEY: Public hearing. Thirty days?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would think. I mean --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. We'll make a
note.
COMMISSIONER
say about that is --
MR. FERRIS:
of copies of this thing, or
to them too, please?
COMMISSIONER
JUDGE TINLEY
BALDWIN: Only thing I want to
Would I be able to get a couple
at least a copy so I can take it
WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
Sorry, Buster. You had some
comments?
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I just want us
to be careful in what we're doing here now. We have kind of
an unwritten policy of when people come to use the facility,
we take them one at a time, and I don't want to get too far
down this road to where we're making a commitment to -- to
any one organization over a long period. I just -- you
know, if we're going to do that, then let's agree that we're
going to do it that way. And, I mean, I just don't want
to -- it's just this commitment thing. You know, if -- if
the chili folks come along and -- and put a lot of their
money into upgrading our facilities, well, we're kind of --
you know, we're making a commitment. We're partnershipping
there. And, you know, then they are going to think that
they can use the facility anytime, all the time, which they
-- they can, but we have to be careful with all that.
That's ali.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good point.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not knocking
anybody. I just think that we need to be careful, is all
I'm saying.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I think our long --
long-term commitments are evidenced by written lease
agreements, and beyond that I think it needs to be clearly
understood that anything else is on a permissive use-by-use
basis.
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COMMISSIONER NICHCLSON: Where do you go for
permission?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maintenance, is how it
is, or the Court.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Facilities Use guys.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Facilities Use, and then
to us usually.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's not a
bureaucratic process?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. You got to go to
Mair.ter.ar.ce, then us .
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Go to Maintenance, to
the Commissioner, to -- then we run it by the Commissioners'
secretary, and that's where it usually falls apart.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Anything else?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not too bad. There's
only so many levels we can put.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Job well done, good
and faithful servants.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Is that it, gentlemen?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Unless there's
something else.
JUDGE TINLEY: We'll stand adjourned, then.
Thank you.
(Workshop concluded at 9:46 a.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 21st day of May, 2003.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
BY : /~
------- -- ~!G~~-------------
Kathy Ban k, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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