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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Budget Workshop
Tuesday, August 9, 2005
1:30 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H A."BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4
~_
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do
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I N D E X
August 9, 2005
PAGE
Review and discuss FY 2005-06 Budgets for
various County Departments, including, but
not limited to the following departments:
Sheriff's Office 3
Juvenile Detention Facility 38
Maintenance Operations 91
Discuss mowing & maintenance capabilities/
consolidation of department functions or
services at County Facilities and/or City/County
Facilities or Operations, including utilization
of Trustees/Trustee Work Project 106
Adjourned 144
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On	Tuesday,	August 9,	2005, at 1:30	p.m., a	budget
workshop	of the	Kerr County	Commissioners	Court	was held in
the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse,
Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in
open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call to order the
Commissioners Court workshop scheduled for this date and
time, Tuesday, August 9, 2005, at 1:30 p.m. -- it's a bit
past that time now -- to hold a workshop on budget matters
for various departments in county government, including, but
not limited to Juvenile Detention Facility, Sheriff's
Office, and Maintenance operations, as well as to discuss
mowing and maintenance capabilities, consolidation of
department functions or services at county facilities,
and/or City/County facilities or operations, including the
utilization of trustees or trustee work program or projects.
The -- the Juvenile Detention Facility is listed first, but
Commissioner Williams, who's been very heavily involved in
that, asked that we move that further down the list so
that -- he'll be here shortly. He had an appointment that
he could not cancel out on, and so that he can be involved
in that. So, we're in a position to take up the Sheriff's
Office at this time. Mr. Sheriff?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. That was quick.
Can I sit back down now, Buster?
JUDGE TINLEY: Let's start with your regular
Sheriff's Office budget. Are there any items outside of the
employee or the capital outlay that -- that you and I dealt
with that you feel like we need to talk to the Court about?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, you and I -- after
we visited, you changed -- recommended a change in Line Item
220 and 316. 220, from $2,000 to $1,200; 316, from $6,000
to $4,500.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I have no problem
with those recommendations. With other changes, there --
there's -- well, it's more in than the jail than Sheriff's
Office. I'm still -- and after what I've seen, like -- and
last week you and I talked. It's just one that we really
will probably be cutting it close, depending on economics
across the country, and that is Line Item 331, Vehicle Gas
and Oil.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I think I had
recommended, and you stayed with that recommendation this
year -- our budget was $70,000; we have recommended going up
to $100,000. And just with the way things are going at this
time, today I'm comfortable with it, you know. One month
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from now, I may say we're going to be way under budget. I
do not think there is any way we will be over budget in that
line item, based on history and what the prices are. And,
you know, I already have some officers in some of our patrol
cars -- we would run a tank of super-unleaded through every
so often. If you run a number of tanks of regular unleaded,
it helps. We even changed that policy. It came out a
couple months ago now that we were running just straight
unleaded gas, the least that we can get, and it's just going
to be one of those that we'll have to wait and see. I don't
like budget amendments, but this budget is going to be
extremely close. If you look at the bottom line in the
entire budget, and this is not counting the -- where you got
$800 then another $1,500, so you got $2,300 off after the
two that you and I visited with, so taking $2,300 off of
that, this budget will actually come in about $300 less than
last year's budget.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got a specific
question about compensation, salaries. A general question,
too. In this budget or any other budget, have we included
any moneys for cost-of-living or those kind of increases?
Or is that to be determined later?
JUDGE TINLEY: No, the -- there are two items
that need to be considered. We've got the mandatories under
the -- under the existing county policy for longevity and
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educational step increases.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: While you're there, my
question is, is that -- is that the change in the deputies'
salaries, is this longevity and education?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The deputies' salaries
for this next coming year, the proposed salary does include
longevity and educational raises for all the deputies.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Not cost-of-living?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The cost-of-living,
there is some attachments in the notebook I gave y'all that
shows what that would also be, but it is not in the actual
budget line.
JUDGE TINLEY: And the number that you've
provided to us for longevity and educational increases which
are mandatory under the policy are based your calculations?
They've not been provided to you by the personnel officer?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They have -- well, with
the personnel officer -- my secretary and I and the
personnel officer all worked together on it. They are based
on -- on our officers' time and experience and education,
when we think their certificates are coming in and their --
their service date, you know, is coming. That is based on
that, which would give that. Now, if you do a
cost-of-living this year also, and then you go back and
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recalculate the FICA and that based on what the
cost-of-living change would be, it may go up a few hundred
dollars, but it's not going to be much.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Sheriff, looking at
Item 105, there's a $20,000 decrease that's requested versus
last year.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, there is.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What happened there?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I cut an employee.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One? How many are
left in that category?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For the Sheriff's
Office, one, two -- that includes a warrant clerk, the
C.I.D. clerk, our receptionist, and my secretary.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Four? Four left?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: How many deputies?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Patrol deputies, we have
24 -- it's in the attachment here. Okay. The ones you
would not count, if you're wanting just to know what's
coming out of that salary line item, it's going to --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Item 104, Deputies'
Salaries.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It will be 41.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. Elected
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official is one.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Forty -- I'm sorry.
Yeah, 41.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 41. And
dispatchers?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Dispatchers, there
are -- should be seven. Yes, seven, which includes their
supervisor.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, deputies, you have
to remember that that does include warrants, criminal
investigators, and then my chief deputy.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I point out
something here right quick? I just find it very interesting
on this -- this explanation here about the secretary. It
said the -- it decreased -- I'm eliminating the patrol clerk
position in an effort to lower costs because of upgrades in
the computer system.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Hark.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That just kind of
rings true, doesn't it? I mean, doesn't it sound like
something we've been talking about?
JUDGE TINLEY: Did you bring the box of gold
stars with you?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Attaboy, Rusty. Bless
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thee.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, on the 463, Radio
Tower Lease.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it going to level off
at $32,000?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where is it going?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There is a percentage
increase every year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But why the big jump this
year?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The big jump this year
was --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Almost $20,000.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It was that the Grenada
site -- it's L.C.R.A.'s towers. We had two L.C.R.A. towers,
okay? In the original contract with L.C.R.A., they gave us
both sites at no cost, and that was set in that contract
worked out with Judge Henneke at that time, that that would
last for so long, and then it would have to start being
charged. And when we met with L.C.R.A. representatives this
last year, they're starting to charge us, and that is the
increase in that tower fee.
JUDGE TINLEY: And let me add something to
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that, if I might. If the Court recalls, actually, the --
the charge should have been imposed earlier. L.C.R.A. went
to sleep at the switch. We certainly didn't kick them while
they were sleeping. And it would have started, I think, in
June or July of this year, but because we had not budgeted
funds, they agreed to defer that which would accrue from
whenever it was to start through September 30, that it would
not be payable until the new budget year. So, a portion of
this budget year is rolled into that cost, so that's not a
true annual cost.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: On Maintenance Contract,
a big reduction in 457.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: See, what my reason was,
those are actual costs that we got from the vendors on a lot
of that stuff.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Copy machines, et
cetera, et cetera.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. We changed -- we
redid our copy machine agreement, the maintenance costs and
those. We changed copy machines during the year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's a pretty good
savings, about $15,000. And lease payments, that's because
of the way you used some seized funds for purchasing
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. We had several
vehicles going off the -- the lease agreement. This is the
last year; that now we own those, and it's even -- it's
projected in -- 'cause, like, if the County bought four new
vehicles this year like we normally do, that initial payment
for those four would come out of Capital Outlay, okay?
We're not doing that, so we alleviated that payment. We're
paying off the set that's already coming in. We paid off
two because of the wreck, okay, and you're paying off a
whole 'nother four on that, so that's six. And then, right
at the beginning, we pay off another four for the year, so
our lease payments are going way down, and we're not adding
another one through the year because of the -- the new
vehicles -- the three that I did purchase were purchased
outright at a flat price with seized funds, and no lease
payments ever. So, that's going to drop that drastically.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. All right. That
looks good.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on his main
operation, or do we go to jail? Okay, let's go to the jail,
if we might. The personnel items there, they also include
the longevity and educational where applicable?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir.
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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Same thing, Sheriff.
Could you give me the numbers of employees by category?
Chief Jailer, one. Cooks?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay, let me get this,
how it's broken out in there. Chief Jailer's one. Cooks is
two. They're -- well, we'll get into that in a minute. The
secretaries are two. Nurses are two. I'm sorry,
secretaries are one. Nurses are two, and then you go down
to clerk. Clerk is one. Part-time is two.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And jailers?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: In jailers?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In jailers. I had a
sergeant -- jail sergeant that served as a fill-in jail
sergeant and training coordinator for the jail. We lost
him, and so I did not fill that position; have not filled
it, and I incorporated the training coordinator's duty
into -- my training sergeant with the Sheriff's Office now
handles both the jail and the Sheriff's.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. Your cost of
cooks is up quite a bit.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, from the current
budget it is not. Current budget is $55,290. My requested
budget was $54,834 on cooks. It's down about -- or less
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than a thousand.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you're -- we were
without a cook for part of the year?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I was without a cook for
part, but the other thing is that changes that is the
longevity. The one I had before was getting a little bit
higher salary due to longevity, and the one that took his
place this year does not quite have that longevity.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's no change in
manpower? You're using cooks the same way you have in the
past?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. There is one thing
that may end up -- 'cause I just met with our head cook, and
I -- this is something I don't know that we can address
here. She has told me that probably in about six months,
after her 10-year tenure with the department, she may very
well retire. She will be 65 years of age and wants to
retire. And I hate hearing that, 'cause she's been -- I
never have to worry about the meals being dietitian-approved
or how they're taken care of. But she has informed me also
that what she would like to do when she does retire is still
do it part-time, and I will need a supervisor that knows the
ordering, the pricing, all that kind of stuff. So, I'll
have to fill her position; it will be at a lower salary in
six months. When that happens, if she doesn't change her
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mind -- and I'm trying to get her to, but if it does happen,
I'll have to fill that, which will be at a little bit lower
salary, but I would request that we figure in another
part-time salary so that we can keep her on to oversee and
supervise that whole deal. With the population going up,
two cooks is -- is extremely thin anyhow. And one that
could actually supervise and take care of all the ordering
is -- unfortunately, our prices are getting worse, and we're
trying to know what she does, how to get those at the west
prices. She has a good relationship with all the vendors.
JUDGE TINLEY: What are your requirements
from the Commission on Jail Standards or otherwise relative
to dietetic standards that you've got to follow?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: All of our meals are
dietitian-approved. We have a licensed dietitian we -- we
sit with and visit with, and they help figure up the
calories and the counts and all that, and everything is
dietitian-approved. If you have medical inmates, like
diabetics, that's a whole separate menu and serving that has
to be fed to them. And it's just -- you know, you have
inmates that are allergic to things; that there's a separate
menu that has to be fed to them if they're allergic to
something that's being fed on that menu. Our biggest
problem -- we met this morning. The costs most of this year
have been running about anywhere from -- well, put it this
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way. January of this last year, our meal cost was a dollar
a meal. February, it went to $1.18; it just went up during
that month. March, back down to $1.01. April, $1.19.
July, $1.22. June, $1.14. And -- well, May was $1.22, but
July, this last month, it went back up to $1.22 from being
at $1.14. And the outlook coming from the vendors is, due
to gas prices and that, it's probably going up more. I have
increased that budget line item in here from $170,000 to
$190,000, increased it $20,000 for next year. We've got
about $23,000 left in there right now to last us the next
couple of months, and I'm concerned, honestly, that that
$190,000 may not be enough. Now, if you will recall, the
only thing -- and I'm still proud of Ms. Krauss, the head
cook, for doing this. When I took office five years ago,
our meal budget was a little over $200,000 -- $210,000.
They were serving a lot of already pre-prepared meals. We
went back to making everything from scratch, the
dietitian-approved, and we cut over $40,000 off of that.
But, unfortunately, now six years later we're looking at
being back up to where we were. So, that kind of saved a
lot, but I'm concerned.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, one question on
budget here. Software Maintenance.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes?
25 ~ COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pretty big jump.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that Mr. Trolinger's
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I thought.
MR. TROLINGER: You're welcome.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is their schedule.
That's pretty well been their schedule, okay? They really
haven't increased their fees. I don't know what the deal
is. I have to budget by what it shows and what -- what we
get from Software Group. I notice in the past, most of the
years, the County has not -- either not been billed or not
had to pay it, 'cause it's still in there at the end of the
year, but other years they have. And so I have to prepare
by what they say.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. And where do you
stand on the works program?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That should come out of
probably more the Sheriff's Office budget. None of this is
figured in here. Nothing with that is figured in. If we --
right now, I have one deputy, as y'all know, that's in
charge of my work program, and normally we have about four
inmates that are out working, and it goes well. They do it
through Glenn; I let Glenn and his office coordinate where
they go, how they -- you know, what he wants done. He
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provides all the equipment, whether it's the mowers or
anything. We do provide the pickup to use, but everything
else equipment-wise is provided through the Maintenance
Department. If we want to consider expanding that, that can
probably pretty easily be done. I know today I have over
160 inmates in that jail again, and normally we do have a
number of them that are classified as minimum security that
we can use in that type of program. It's just a real
one-on-one consideration. Do you want to have them out at
the airport trying to help out with mowing out there? Then
I would assume you're talking about having an inmate drive a
tractor.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I'm just
thinking -- not necessarily the airport. I'm thinking just
of general maintenance.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It needs to be expanded.
The work program needs to be expanded. But to expand the
work program, if I put more than five inmates with one
officer, you're stretching it real thin to be able to do
appropriate security on those inmates when there is not a --
you know, you got five of them right there. If one takes
off or whatever, one officer's going to have a hard time,
okay? So you really -- huh?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Shoot them.
25 ~ SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, it doesn't work that
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way, not if they're minimum security inmates. You -- we
won't get into that. But, anyhow, you are going to have
more officers that you're going to have to hire for -- for
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you -- so,
essentially, you will need one more deputy to expand the
works program to get -- kind of do it the same way you're
doing it, but go with more --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If you want to use up to
about 10 inmates, yes, I'd need one more deputy. If you
want to expand it -- and I visited with several counties --
up to 40 inmates, then you're talking four more deputies,
you know. The only ratio you don't have to figure in is --
and there's ways of working with the deputy program too on
this, and I'll explain that in just a minute. One that you
don't have to figure in like you have to figure in
everywhere else in the Sheriff's Office is, you know, five
employees to fill one spot, because were not running that
program 24 hours a day, okay? And, say, eight hours a day,
five days a week. So that does, you know, cut down on that.
(Commissioner Williams entered the courtroom.)
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The other thing I think
this County would be wise in that I can certify, and the
County has given me that ability, we have ten deputy slots
in the jail that y'all approved several years ago that are
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paid as jailers, okay, but we are carrying their peace
officer certification. They're not on route -- on patrol.
They help with some of the court duties; they help approving
guards -- the paperwork on the guard duties. That can also
be done on this type of program. Now, the one that is doing
it right now I'd like to keep as head of the program. He
knows how it works and knows, you know, the ins and outs.
But if we hired new hires, they could actually be hired at a
lower pay level than what our patrol deputies are, which I
think would be appropriate considering the type of work
they're doing. Okay. It may be one level above -- one step
above what a starting jailer makes. You know, one or two
steps above that jailer salary, because of the
responsibility regarding inmates and working with them
outside the security perimeter, but I don't think it needs
to be at the level that a patrol officer's been.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Sheriff, let me ask
you a real fundamental question. The idea of using
prisoners to do community work has got a lot of appeal to
it, and I think citizens and taxpayers feel pretty good
about that. They like to see prisoners work.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I hear both.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But let's say that
the value of the work they do is $10 an hour each. That's
-- we're doing $40 an hour worth of work. Between the
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deputy and the equipment we're using, are we paying more
than $40 for that?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Are we paying more than
that? No. I think Glenn will tell you that, with the work
that the inmate work program does, it's probably saved this
county hundreds of thousands this year alone. They pretty
well helped and did most of the work down in the County
Attorney's office adding on. We've had them out on --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I see them working;
I like it a lot, but I think most people don't realize there
is a cost associated with that.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There's a cost of it of
the deputy's salary. They get, you know, sack lunches
normally, and the gas and the vehicle -- you know, we had to
replace the vehicle last year. They last a number of years,
but there is a cost associated with that. There is a cost
that if you do have an inmate injured while doing that -- we
have had that happen where he tripped and fell. One broke a
hip several years ago working at out at the Ag Barn; tripped
over something and fell there, and there is a cost. We had
to pay that medical cost. So, yeah, there are some --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But you're satisfied
it's a good use of taxpayer dollars?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think it's a good use
in a lot of ways. I think the County gets a lot of work
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done, okay. These inmates aren't just sitting out there,
you know, in a cell and we're feeding them three meals and
paying for everything that happens to them. Where,
actually, they're working, they cause less problems in the
jail. It works out in the jail a whole lot better. You
have to keep them separately from the rest of the inmates,
but the County's getting a lot of work done, and they pick
up the trash at the parks, even at Ingram Dam, all the
different stuff. The new Legislature has just passed new
working, which I think will help greatly. And it just --
you know, it shortens their stay in the jail. The reason
why is they get more good time credit if they're out there
working than they get sitting in the jail cell.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: A lot of good
things.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I think there's a
lot more positives. Now, the public, yes -- you know, the
general idea I get is -- or general response is it's the
best program they've seen. I think it's the best program we
have. But then you always have those that complain that
we're just out there, you know, prancing around poor inmates
in black and white stripes making a spectacle out of them.
I don't believe that. I have more inmates wanting to be on
that program than anything else, 'cause they do get the good
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time; it makes their time go by faster.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We saw a
recommendation last week that we take the air conditioning
away from them and feed them one meal a day, so there's
opposite ends of that spectrum.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. And I -- I've
felt myself on both sides of that spectrum at times, you
know.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay, go ahead.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But that's where we're
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe the boot camp
associated costs, Jonathan, of starting up a bigger program
would just be how big you want it. As far as vehicles, you
know, we do have the one truck. I do have two jail
corrections officers' vehicles that they use for -- and the
one old van that they use for transporting inmates back and
forth here to court, to the hospitals and that. I can
probably get one more out of that without having to go to a
bigger vehicle if that's all we're going to use; you know,
if we go 8 to 10 inmates. If we want to enlarge any larger
than that, I would recommend getting a bus. And I did check
on the state bid prices; we can get a bluebird bus for about
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$40,000 brand-new that would haul 53 inmates.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm more in favor of
going slowly, but I -- depending on how the rest of the
budget looks, adding one deputy and expanding that work
program, especially if a deputy's at a -- you know, a lower
than starting deputy's salary, I think it's worthwhile. But
when we get into -- whatever it's called that's on our
agenda -- the maintenance issue --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- we'll see if Glenn has
-- Glenn and Leonard have enough uses for them, 'cause those
are the two departments that benefit the most from trash
pickup, mowing, things of that nature, yard work.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think it would be very
wise and very beneficial to use them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on the jail
budget that we haven't covered that we need to cover? Let's
move on to Courthouse Security portion. I think you're
going to need to do some explaining on this one, Sheriff.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This one, I think you
and I both agreed that we wouldn't recommend anything; in
the end, we'd let the Court decide.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What tab are we at?
25 ~ COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 16.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Still on 16?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. The budget that I
have proposed in there, you will notice on Deputy's Salary,
it has gone up greatly, from $34,379 to $100,602. If you
look under the explanation, it just depends on what type
security. We have more and more instances everywhere with
it. This increase, under the explanation of the deputy,
would fund a total of three full-time officers for the
courthouse; one upstairs, one downstairs, one to monitor a
camera system or a backup as a floating officer throughout
the courthouse. The courts are pretty well going and
different things going in every part of this courthouse all
the time now, as you well know. And, as you see a lot of
times and probably hear from some of the other department
heads, Chuck may be upstairs bailiffing a court up there;
they need somebody down here. We have to send an officer in
from somewhere else, or from out at the jail or whatever to
come over here.
We had to do it this morning; we had district
court going and county court going, and we had too much to
be able to do. The courts are entitled and have to have a
bailiff for every court that's in session, so I don't have a
choice there. I have to put somebody in. And then you got
the security issues. We now also provide a bailiff for
Judge Tinley's court with juvenile, and I think that he can
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tell you there's been a time or two, even this last year,
it's probably a good thing there was an officer in the
courtroom with juvenile. The A.G.'s court for child support
cases, we have had some instances in there, so now every
time they meet, we provide a bailiff in that court. County
court, we provide one. Any civil courts, any divorce
hearings, we provide a bailiff in there. It's just gotten
to where you're needing more and more officers in court
hearings at all times.
The -- the security improvements -- and I did
not add this in here; it is something that I think this
Court should strongly look at, and I would encourage them to
look at, is there are several different options. And I
think possibly a grant application for it would also help in
doing this, maybe through one of the local foundations or
not. But there are two options that I think would be wise
for this Court to look at, and those costs are in there.
This is a camera system; I don't know if that's what y'all
would want. And this one, the 96,531 is an alarm system.
The $96,000 figure in there would put cameras in every place
that anything could possibly go wrong, including the outside
perimeter of this facility. It would put the monitors all
in one area. One of those three officers would have to stay
to be able to monitor all those cameras. They are zoom-in,
zoom-out, digital recording-type, the best bid we got, the
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estimate we got. They would also be able to be monitored
Trolinger looked at that as just -- that is a
very large expense for one year if you wanted to go
high-tech on courthouse security. The minimum I would
recommend is the second bid you got there. I would be
comfortable with that bid on courthouse security. That is
the panic button. This is not the panic button system that
the County had at one time. I think Buster remembers that.
This system would include -- I think it's 64 buttons. Every
official, department head, you know, person in the clerk's
office or whatever, will have one of these buttons that we
can get pretty well throughout the courthouse. The judges
will have one at the bench and in their offices. What this
does is, if they push the button, okay, it will tell the --
the security officer -- it goes to a separate frequency on
his portable, which Chuck carries with him all the time, and
it tells him that his assistance is needed in Commissioners
Court office or County Judge's office, okay?
If you use it with a smaller camera system,
and if he's -- if he had two officers and he's the one
sitting up there monitoring the cameras, then he also has
that capability immediately to flip on that monitor and see
what they're -- what it is in that camera. If -- if you're
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not using the camera and he has to respond, and he responds
down here and there is an emergency-type situation where he
needs more help, this system will allow him to push another
button on his, and not have to get on the radio. All he has
to do is push a button and it will broadcast to every Kerr
County Sheriff's Office unit, wherever they are, over the
radio system, the emergency button out there is an emergency
at the courthouse and officers need to respond immediately,
and then there coming red lights and siren to the
courthouse.
We could have it phased in where that clerk
could do that, but I did not want to do that, 'cause I don't
want, you know, a transient walking in and a clerk feeling a
little bit uneasy and needs an officer down there, but push
a button and it broadcasts an emergency and every car in the
county is running to the courthouse. I wanted the security
officer that's on-site to be the one with that capability.
This system also puts that button and those -- those deals
in the J.P. courts here, in the J.P. offices, and it does
put it in J.P. 4's and the remote Tax Assessor's office in
Ingram. Now, the one in Ingram, because of the way that is,
and you do not have a security officer out there, that one,
if they push, would broadcast on the radio system that there
is an emergency at that office, and the officers will have
25 ~ to respond immediately.
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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: These costs you
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's one-time costs.
There is no -- you know, other than if we had a camera go
out or a maintenance fee go out or something like that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Your salary expense
envisions going from one to three deputies?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If we did all that. If
you do just the panic button, you could still get by with
one deputy, although I personally feel one deputy at the
courthouse is not enough any more.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: When you need more
than one bailiff down here, where does the additional deputy
come from?
MS. HARRIS: Well, this morning, it was my
chief deputy, 'cause we had a lot of court going on. We
have to pull somebody, okay?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Generally, it's a deputy
from somewhere?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Generally, it's going to
be a deputy. Warrant Division, okay, spends a whole lot of
time down here; you know, Lee Behrens and different warrant
officers and that. I do have a certified officer in the
jail that does help; if we've got inmates, then she does it,
but she does not do the other stuff down here. So, yeah,
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it's a deputy's salary.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Sheriff, Courthouse
Security, does that -- does that take the same kind of
training and skill and ability as patrol officers and other
officers take? Is it lower level classification?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's -- nowadays, it's
definitely not lower level classification.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, it's not
something you want to trust to the --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Most of your violence
and everything is coming inside courthouses, inside civil
cases or things like that. We have instances almost monthly
where you'll have an inmate get sentenced, jump up and go
after a judge, you know, try and get to the Judge. Or jump
up, cuss, and then we had one case this year that I was in
the district courtroom when it occurred; an inmate got
sentenced to 40 years, and he jumped up and started
hollering. And, unfortunately, you had both sides -- you
had -- it was a sexual abuse case, and you had the kid's
family on one side, his family on the other side, and then
he's going after the Judge, and the two families are, you
know, going after each other, and we had to call for all
kinds of help. We chased them all through this courthouse
and had to corral about 15 or 20 different fights starting
to break out at one time. You've got to have help in the
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courthouse. Emotions are way too high.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff, in talking
about bailiffs in the various courts, since we only have one
security officer here in the courthouse now, you handle that
Yes, I do.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- to the court at a
specified time when the court's in session? Is that how you
handle that?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I handle it -- we know
when the court's coming up. We don't know how long it's
going to last, okay?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But, yes, we handle it
through -- through deputies. You know, my warrant officers
that should be out serving warrants, they spend most of
their time in the courthouse. Our biggest problem is,
because of our backlog in felony district court, it has not
been -- and part of -- it's normal that any time you have
216th District Court meet for a pretrial date or a court
date, we will have to transport anywhere from 50 to 60
inmates from the jail to the court all at once, and it takes
a lot of officers for that security. We did that last week,
and we had family members following one back to the -- to
the jail, and we had to stop them right before they got to
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the jail, 'cause the girlfriend wanted to get to her
boyfriend who was in jail, and they wanted to try and talk
to him and make the transport vehicle stop so they could
talk to him. So, we didn't want to have -- it creates some
high security areas. And these officers, most of them, are
not on the transport list of people.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, have we seen an
increase in that kind of activity, or is this something that
the Sheriff's Association says is fixing to happen? Or --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have no idea how the
Sheriff's Association thinks about it, okay? I haven't
talked to them about it. I haven't worried about that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I mean, is it --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Everything that I go on
is based on what we see right here and what I see happening
here. That's the only thing I can use. That's the only way
to --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that in
the courtrooms, but in the courthouse in general, I mean,
like down here, the only -- only time I get nervous is when
Letz has some of his constituents in the courthouse.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I get nervous when y'all
two get together.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it bothers me
too, but -- (Laughter). What about just in the courthouse,
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general? I mean, is there -- is there an increase in that
kind of activity?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. In this
courthouse, in general, yes, there is an increase. We've
had criminal mischief cases at night in this courthouse this
extremely serious situation in the District Court with the
inmate I just told you about. Judge Tinley has had a
situation in this court with juveniles. We've had a
situation in the A.G. courts with child support cases. And
a lot of times what happens, and what's really hard to
control on a lot of that, Buster, is it may not happen in
the courtroom. But any time you've got two opposite sides
there, you got opposing parties, and it's when they leave
that courtroom and they get out here on the courthouse yard
or they get out here on the steps, and they'll get together
and want to run over and make a smart comment, and we've had
assaults right here on the courthouse grounds. You've got
to have the security; got to escort a lot of these people
out or protect the ones you don't want to get injured 'cause
the other one's -- the courthouse security is getting to be
a very serious situation. See, I think that neither Judge
Tinley nor myself felt how we should handle this courthouse
security situation, and this would need to go to the full
25 I Court.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's see. So,
your -- your request there is to add two more security-type
folk in this deputy's salary issue?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My recommendation would
be to add two more officers here, or at least, at a very
minimum, one more full-time officer to give us two, and it
would be at a minimum to do the panic system with the
buttons. If we did --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In addition to a
capital expenditure of $100,000?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The -- the deputies, you
could cut -- or I increased it by -- actually increased it
from last year by $66,000. The starting deputy's salary is
$29,000. You could change that from 66 to 29, and then the
-- that would be an addition into the Deputy's Salary line
item for Courthouse Security. And then the 30 -- is it
31, 000?
JUDGE TINLEY: 32.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 32,000 would need to be
added to the Capital Outlay. Where I -- and we don't really
even have a Capital Outlay line item for Courthouse
Security, but I would ask that 32,000 at a minimum.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's just the
wireless -- that's not video?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's not video.
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That's not the video camera.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The video
contemplates somebody sitting in front of a console
monitoring all those --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- cameras?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 24/7? 18 or what?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. No, eight hours a
day when the courthouse is open. The rest of the time, they
can be monitored, and it would mainly be the outside
perimeter ones, which are panable and zoomable, and they
would be monitored from our office, at the Sheriff's Office.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, my
recommendation is that we go slow, and I would think -- I'd
like to see us probably add one person, and just somehow
write in pencil the panic button program in here, something
easy to erase.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've got kind of a wish
list going over here. I'll just think about it after we
hear all the -- after we hear all the stuff from other
departments, we can come back and see where we need to --
I'm kind of where you are, one.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I got to tell you,
Leonard and I recently were in a meeting with a constituent
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over a subdivision issue, and we were using Judge Brown's
courtroom, and he recently moved here from New York. And it
was a fairly civil conversation, but the voice escalated,
and, I mean, it got kind of strange for me. And I could
have handled it, though, but Chuck just happened to poke his
head in there at that right -- at that time, and I'm glad he
was there.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just the presence
normally is what solves a lot of --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Didn't have to say a
word. It just was very --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One thing -- and, like I
said, I'd recommend at least one more officer, just like
Buster did. The panic button, one thing we could do -- and
I don't know that you can even give me the permission, or
that I can just actually go out and do it. On the panic
button and the 31 -- 32,000, I think if we applied through
the local foundation for a grant for that amount, we could
probably get at least the result of either a yes or no on
that before the budget process would end to where we could
plan on that kind of stuff.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then that deletes
the bailiff, this bailiff budget.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The 1,000? Well, I
already -- yeah, I deleted it in this one, in the
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preparation. We had $1,000 just to pay extra people. It's
hard to do that. We really couldn't find a way to get it
done right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we put it into one
of these two programs, would it come under Security
Improvements? Is that where it would go?
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, there's -- one of them
would be under the --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That would probably be
right.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- Deputy. And then Security
Improvements, you probably want just one capital outlay --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- in there for the alarm
system which creates that line item.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And if you notice on
there, the last two years there hasn't been anything. Three
years ago, '03-'04, we did do -- well, it was $795 for
security improvements, and that was for hand-held metal
detector wands that they use at times in different courts,
so that's the only improvements that have been done since we
actually purchased those metal detectors 10 years ago, the
large ones.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No new vehicles in
this budget.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, sir. Next year, you
seizure fund. But we were able to -- immediately, we are
getting three brand-new vehicles, equipped. They're already
in. Those are the three we replaced. We had two that were
wrecked and totaled, and we purchased one more through the
seizure fund and the TAC settlements or the insurance
company, and so it gave us three. Before the end of the
year, I do plan on -- on attempting to purchase one more
through the seizure fund. I'm trying to see where
everything -- after all the equipment's put in, where it
would come out. I'd like to get one more. That would still
give us four vehicles this year, which allows us to keep
operating.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You need to find some
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Big ones.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My main concern is, the
first-year vehicles that we had, we've rotated most of them
down to the jail, but I do have some vehicles now that are
still on the road that have got 200,000 miles.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: First year of your
program, right?
25 ~ SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think second year.
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They were real close together there when we did that. And
then I have a -- my one transport vehicle that the transport
officer uses traveling all over, it's at almost
300,000 miles. So, yeah, a mileage buildup.
JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, gentlemen?
Thank you, Sheriff.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you.
JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate it. Why don't
we go now to the Juvenile Detention Facility.
(Discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Juvenile Detention.
What tab is that?
JUDGE TINLEY: It's under 22.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 22. Hello,
Ms. Harris.
JUDGE TINLEY: Lots of new numbers.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a dump truck
full of papers here, so go slow so I can get on the same
page with everybody, please.
JUDGE TINLEY: We had three -- three
scenarios when we were last talking about this. And --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only three?
JUDGE TINLEY: -- we've added two more.
Well, three scenarios that Ms. Harris presented.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Then there were some
variations or alternates, some figures that Mr. Stanton had
plugged in. And we requested Ms. Harris to bring in a
couple more scenarios. She has done that. The new
scenarios are both based on one building, one with 36 and
one with 44, increments of eight employees on the
postadjudication and 12 on preadjudication. Would that be a
correct way to characterize that, Ms. Harris?
MS. HARRIS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me borrow those two
and make copies.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I can't find mine.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know I got them.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which one is that?
JUDGE TINLEY: That's the 36.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The 36 and the 44.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 36 and 44.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I need a copy; I
can't find it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We have to digest
that, and if that's not confusing enough, I'll give you
another set of numbers, okay? We've got numbers coming out
our ears.
JUDGE TINLEY: You got a new set of numbers?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got them all,
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everywhere. Just tell me what you want. I just got some.
MS. HARRIS: We could just throw them all up
in the air and whichever one falls to the ground first.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: Have you got the new ones,
Buster, on the 36 and 44?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, but they're
coming.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On their way.
MS. HARRIS: I brought those Thursday. I
brought those over here last Thursday.
JUDGE TINLEY: Did you just bring one copy?
MS. HARRIS: No, I brought copies for
everybody.
JUDGE TINLEY: I thought so.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sure we have them.
JUDGE TINLEY: I apologize if I failed to
make copies, then. I thought everybody did have a copy.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Must have brought
two, 'cause I have a copy.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, okay.
MS. HARRIS: I brought each Commissioner and
Judge Tinley a copy of each one.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge must have those
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41
other three, then.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've seen it. I
just can't find it. Got that same --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I only have eight
different scenarios. About the only thing that hasn't been
proposed is building another wing.
MS. HARRIS: This is true, an addition.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hey, there's an idea.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Shake your head.
Maybe it'll go away, right?
JUDGE TINLEY: Have you got any new numbers
for us, Tommy?
MR. TOMLINSON: New?
JUDGE TINLEY: Relative to the detention
facility.
MR. TOMLINSON: No. Only new numbers I have
I put on your desk.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He gave them to me; I
got some.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not sure -- just
talking about what we spent?
JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not sure what his new
numbers might consist of. He --
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what we were
committed to probably through the budget year.
JUDGE TINLEY: Through the budget year? Or
through the --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it's through
July, but we appropriated in advance.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I made four copies.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a breakfast
menu, lunch menu.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was in the group,
so --
JUDGE TINLEY: In case you're hungry?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Buster, you got this?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's see. I'd like
pancakes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 44.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. What do you have for
us, Ms. Harris?
MS. HARRIS: Well, I'm really not sure. It's
whichever one you want to talk about first. You had
requested that I come up with a couple of different
scenarios using the one building, a budget that reflects pre
and post male and female, and then a pre and post that
reflects only male, and so that's what I've done. The 36
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residents, one building reflects 24 male post kids. That's
just two dorms, and 12 male and female pre's on the 36.
Now, I don't know if you want to -- I'm certain we can.
It's just up to you. We can go line item by line item and
reflect the changes. The 60-bed budget is what Tommy worked
up; it's in your notebook, I believe.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me suggest a
starting point.
MS. HARRIS: Sure.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You've given us two
different scenarios.
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One of them is 44
residents, all male, pre and post.
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And it reflects the
smallest projected deficit.
MS. HARRIS: That's right.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 161,000 -- 167,000.
MS. HARRIS: Right.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's as good a
starting place as any. I say why not the one with the
smallest deficit, and then if there's good reasons that
that's not okay, then let's move over and talk about --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The biggest problem I
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have with that is -- is that the -- that's based on full
occupancy for 365 days, and I don't know what the proper
number is, but I suspect it'll be 80 percent of the 44. I
mean, you're not going to run at full occupancy.
MS. HARRIS: What's going to drive keeping 44
kids in there 24/7, 365 is, of course, your pre population,
'cause it's just so erratic. Now, 32 male post, that's a
realistic number. We have 15 post boys right now, and this
is in the down time of the year. And we're getting two more
kids next week, and we've got a third one waiting in the
wings, and they're all males. What -- that 32 all male
represents is two and a half dorms of boys. Now, the 12
males, there may be some days that we'll have all 12. There
may be some days we won't have any. It just -- it just
depends.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there a way to --
well, how do you staff for the pre's when that population is
so volatile?
MS. HARRIS: Erratic. For instance, you have
-- take one dorm that's got 12 beds. Let's say we've got
six long-term post boys on that dorm. Well, that's six
empty beds that's on that dorm, correct? So, it's
conceivable that you could put some pre kids on there, but
you've got to have a separate staff for those pre kids. You
25 ~ could use part-time people for that.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that you
suggested the starting point being Ms. Harris' scenario of
44 residents in one building, 32 male postadjudicated and 12
male preadjudicated. And you note all -- if you look at all
the various scenarios, as we all have, and you go to the
bottom line, which is where you have to go, it does, in
fact, appear to be the best of the scenarios, but there
is -- there is a -- there is a problem with it. And the
problem is that the 32 male post is okay, because that gives
you some revenue stability to help you ease through the ups
and downs of the preadjudicated, but limiting it to males on
the pre side poses a problem, because we do have females in
Kerr County. And this is outside Ms. Harris' jurisdiction,
because all she`s responsible for is taking care of those
who arrive at her doorstep. So, I asked the Juvenile
Probation Officer what that meant to us if we cut out all of
the female population, pre, and sent them elsewhere, and the
bottom line is that it would cost us anywhere from 131 --
$133,000 to $135,000 additional to send them out. So, you
add that on top of --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 161.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- of the 161, and
you've got a -- a difficult situation.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Bill, would that
suggest, then, that Option B here -- not my B -- which is
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the 36 residents, male and female, pre and post, with the
$336,000 annual deficit might be the most economic way?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm going to share
with you some more numbers. I'm going to confuse the
situation more.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Can't confuse it
more.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: These are numbers
prepared by the Juvenile Probation Officer; there's some
more copies there. And his scenario that he's -- that he
sketched out here is a 48-bed pre -- post and preadjudicated
facility. Am I correct in that, Kevin? 48 beds? And that
would be 36 male. I think it says 24, but -- let's see
that. Give me an extra copy of that; maybe I picked up the
wrong one.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's what you just handed
me. Okay, it's 48.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Supposed to be
looking at a 48-bed, and that would --
JUDGE TINLEY: 36 male, post.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. It would be 36
male, post.
MR. STANTON: It would be 24 post -- be 24
post males and 12 female post -- 12 pre female and 12 pre
male.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Say it again?
MR. STANTON: 24 post males.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. STANTON: 24 pre females and -- I mean 12
24 post all the way, 12 and 12.
MR. STANTON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That will get
their female population back in-house, okay. The Court
needs to take a look at that in addition to the scenario
that Becky has put together, 'cause this gets us into policy
and philosophy of how we're going to go and so forth and so
on.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Help me read it.
I'm looking at this second page that's in color. Does this
say at 100 percent occupancy, it's going to cost $523,000 a
year?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. It's -- that's
above -- there's a break.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 50 percent occupancy.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 50 percent occupancy.
You make money there.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I got you.
25 ~ COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 90 percent produces a
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profit. 80 percent produces --
JUDGE TINLEY: Puts you into a deficit.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Puts you into a
deficit position of about $69,000.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But somewhere with -- I
would suspect 70 percent occupancy is probably a real
number.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 70 to 75, probably,
yeah, somewhere. So, you're going to be around 100, 115,
120, 125.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So this would say,
then, we could probably operate this 48-bed mix at a lower
cost than we could probably operate the 36-bed mix.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And in -- in the
44-bed scenario that Ms. Harris put together for you, we
have to keep in mind also, though, that once you staff for
44, she's also staffed for 48. Is that correct, Becky?
MS. HARRIS: That's correct.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And so it could
easily go up to 48 if there -- if the -- if the traffic is
out there. I think -- I think, in terms of all of this, if
you look at all of these various scenarios, we have to also
talk about what the market will bear in terms of the rate
structure. And my understanding from talking to both
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Ms. Harris and to Kevin Stanton is that the substance abuse
program and the sex offender program are extremely
marketable. Is that a fair representation?
MS. HARRIS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And those are coupled
with the things that are standard and required by T.J.P.C.,
whatever -- whatever those things are?
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, then, that gets
you back to what you charge for those. And there are --
there is ample evidence that for those two programs, $85 a
day or something like that is at the bottom of the -- bottom
of the --
MS. HARRIS: Level 5.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, scale. The
reality is, you could charge more for those programs.
MR. STANTON: Well, the sex offender program.
Not for the -- not for --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sex offender.
MR. STANTON: -- the substance abuse program.
MS. HARRIS: Sex offender, you can get -- if
it's a registered sex offender, it's 5115 a day.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Okay. That's
what I was trying to bring up.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But most of them are not
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registered?
MS. HARRIS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So -
MS. HARRIS: Okay. The one that Kevin has
done on the 100 percent occupancy, what it -- correct me if
I'm wrong, that the revenue is based on 18 -- is that
right? -- post kids. Is that right, 18 post?
JUDGE TINLEY: No, it's based upon six at the
higher rate, sex offender program, 18 at the substance abuse
rate of 85.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. With 24 pre,
male and female, at 83.
JUDGE TINLEY: At the current rate of 83.
That's at 100 percent, now.
MS. HARRIS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does it make sense to go
-- or does it mess up with the staffing if you went on the
pre, instead of going to 12 and 12, to go to 6 and 6, or
8 and 8? I mean --
MS. HARRIS: Your pre ratio is 1-to-12.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you have to staff for
12?
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. And if you got
male and female, you have to staff accordingly.
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MS. HARRIS: You have to staff it separately.
MR. STANTON: You also have to look at the
configuration of the building.
MS. HARRIS: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What, Kevin?
MR. STANTON: You also have to look at
configuration of the building, configuration of the dorm
rooms in the old building. Each dorm holds 12 kids.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sight-and-sound separate.
MS. HARRIS: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is projected in
the old building?
MR. STANTON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So is Ms. Harris'.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When you're talking
about percentage of occupancy, how can you know or how can
you think that you may have 100 percent occupancy at any
time? To me, the only way to base that is -- is our track
record. We have owned the thing, what, eight months? And
what is the percentage of occupancy today?
MS. HARRIS: Well, today we have 26 kids, and
you've got a possible 76 beds. And that population is based
on our ability to get kids in since February, 'cause that's
when we hit -- started marketing earnestly, because that was
the first opportunity we had to do that. So, from February
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to today, I would say our average has been right at 30. If
you take all of those months and average them together, it's
been right at 30.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Same period of time,
just what do you think our average Kerr County children are
out of that 30? How many of that 30 are Kerr County
children?
MS. HARRIS: Okay. On the post side, we've
had as many as seven. Today we have four, but we're fixing
to get another one, so that'll be five on the post side. On
the pre side, I would say between February and now, nine,
ten at any given time of Kerr County kids. Like, today, we
have one, two, three, four -- we've got five Kerr County
pres.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm not trying to go
back and -- and rework some work we did months ago. I'm
just trying to confirm that I'm remembering correctly. If
we didn't have a facility, if we had a blank piece of paper
and we were trying to decide what to do about Kerr County
children who are -- who need to be incarcerated, the least
expensive option is to send them somewhere else.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think we
pointed out in our last meeting, Commissioner, our base line
obligation is somewhere in the vicinity of $230,000,
$250,000, if you turn the key in the lock.
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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If I divide the
it's an outrageous number. Number of Kerr County children
into what the total cost to Kerr County taxpayers is going
to be.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but I think
what's -- there's two keys. I mean, I think we have all
these scenarios. We have to look at the occupancy. And if
you look at -- like, at Kevin's proposal, 'cause he has the
70 percent occupancy, if you can get 75 percent occupancy,
it's going to cost the taxpayers of Kerr County less to have
48 kids here than it is to send the Kerr County kids only
out.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me get that
again. 48-bed facility, 70 percent occupancy.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 75 percent.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 75 percent. It
costs less to operate this facility than it will to send our
children out?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, Kerr County kids.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. I can -- I
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: As I understand it. Am I
right on that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's --
JUDGE TINLEY: I think you can actually go
below 75 percent.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do too. I think
you can go as low as 70.
JUDGE TINLEY: You've got some numbers that
suggest that you're looking at a minimum of about $300,000
that we got -- I believe they were in the last group of
figures that Mr. Stanton furnished us. And that's assuming
that we can take these children -- when we take them to an
outside facility, three different facilities, all of which
are fairly close, which may be full, may not be available.
We may have to go 350, 400 miles --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- to place a child.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, if they're
full, I want to find out how they do that.
JUDGE TINLEY: They just may be full that
day.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: Just like we may be full that
day. On -- on preadjudication, for example. That's where
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the difficulty comes in, is on your preadjudication. You
can plan for your post, but you cannot plan your pre. If
that child has to go to detention, you've got to place that
child in some detention facility that's certified somewhere
then, and you got to get the child there, and within 48
hours, you got to go get the child for an initial detention
hearing, and then it's back and forth.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There are a couple
other elements, too, that may not be so quantifiable as
you'd like for them to be, but there is the deterrent factor
that the Sheriff has indicated is -- is real. And the
Probation Officer also indicates that -- that there is a
deterrent factor by reason of having a facility here. You
also have an educational component going on which is in
place with K.I.S.D. that -- that educates or attempts to
educate kids there, and also helps in terms of expelled
K.I.S.D. students, so K.I.S.D. also has a stake in this as
well. So, there are a lot of factors to consider.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Very simple, there
is support around the community for having a facility here.
There's not a whole one-sided -- I was talking to Gary
Priour Saturday morning. He's the founder and director of
the Hill Country Youth Ranch, and he was telling me it's
important to have one locally; it's important to the Youth
25 I Ranch to have one. It's not all one-sided.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we could -- if we
-- if we were to budget for a facility that admittedly has
red ink in the vicinity of $150,000, $200,000, I'd say we
would have made a great deal, given the fact that, to-date,
for the months that we have subsidized it since we acquired
it, it's about $725,000 through the end of the budget year.
So, if we can reduce that down measurably over the next 12
months, we will have done yeoman's service.
MR. TOMLINSON: Commissioner? I'd like to
add a little to your statement about K.I.S.D. having to --
having some interest in the facility, in that if we don't
have -- well, for every kid that's in that facility that's
outside of Kerr County, K.I.S.D. gets average daily
attendance money on those kids.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They get what?
MR. TOMLINSON: Average daily attendance
money. They get state funds on -- on every kid that's in
that facility. If it goes away, then K.I.S.D. loses average
day attendance money on every one of them. So, I mean,
that -- that is a lot of money that K.I.S.D. would have to
raise -- potentially raise taxes on in order to operate.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you're saying
K.I.S.D. should give us some money?
MR. TOMLINSON: Well, that's a possibility.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that what I'm hearing?
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AUDIENCE: We have five teachers that we're
concerned about that are out there. That's my concern. And
we would have to absorb them. And, you know, maybe we can.
Or -- I mean, we would -- we would absorb them; let me say
that. But, that's my concern.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I appreciate your
comments, and I appreciate Tommy shedding a little more
light on it, 'cause K.I.S.D. does have a vested interest in
this thing as well.
MR. TOMLINSON: That's the big picture. If
you look at both entities together, then -- then you're --
you know, there's substantial dollars in that.
MS. HARRIS: I would want to continue to have
the building dual-certified, which means that you can have
the flexibility to adjust your bed space accordingly to
whatever your population is looking at, and not be
restricted to strictly 24 pre and 24 post, because you're
not going to have 24 pre's in there all the time. You're
going to have some empty beds. And if we have the response
that I think that we're going to have in the fall, we need
the flexibility to put post kids in there, because those are
long-term, and you make more money on your post.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does that affect your
staffing in any way?
MS. HARRIS: No.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's just a matter of
operational flexibility?
MS. HARRIS:
COMMISSIONER
MS. HARRIS:
-- the staff I have out the
take care of 48 -- we could
COMMISSIONER
That's right.
WILLIAMS: Okay.
That's right. Because the staff
re today, the number of staff, we
take care of 48 kids.
WILLIAMS: That's the story,
gentlemen.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I'm kind of back
where Commissioner Baldwin is, and we haven't ever
approached full, I mean, since January. And I understand
there's been a -- you know, some other issues that relate to
that, but I guess -- you know, we haven't even -- we really
haven't gotten above 30, 31, 32. Somewhere -- you know,
we've been around 26 to 32, it seems, for the last three or
four months, and I just want to make sure that we're not
just trying to grab a pie in the sky that we're never going
to get there. I mean, if we can't really get to 40, 45, it
doesn't make sense to staff at that level.
MS. HARRIS: Well, this has not been an
indicative year of what the facility has the potential of
doing because of all -- of the different roadblocks or
however you want to look at it, what the facility's been
through this year. Plus what you're looking at, too, is
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you're looking at the -- at the time of the year that
counties have run out of placement money, so therefore, your
number of referrals have reduced, except in our case. And
in that mountain of information, I gave you a chart that was
color-coded that showed you the -- the three different
colored lines that showed Kerr County compared to other
facilities in the state and then statewide, and we're ahead
of everybody in the state. Please remember, you've got
facilities that have already closed and that are closing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, that -- I
really don't care about those facilities. I mean --
MS. HARRIS: Well, that's potential revenue,
because you're getting those kids that would go to those
facilities.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If they're not going
to -- I'm hearing that, but at the same time, I'm hearing
that the State has facilities that are operating cheaper,
and that's where they're going to until they're full 100
percent in the State-operated facilities. That's where the
kids are -- I mean, are going to go.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Makes more than a
little bit of difference. If -- if we budget for something
at 70 percent occupancy or better, it's around $200,000
cost. If we achieve a 50 percent occupancy, the difference
is $325,000.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I mean, it's a
huge difference. I mean, the -- you know, that occupancy --
it starts really biting you if we don't stay at 75 percent.
75 percent is acceptable and that's reasonable, but if we
drop to a couple months at 50, we're dead for the year;
we're never going to recover that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's difficult to make
-- it's difficult for me to make a decision on -- with
taxpayers' money on what might happen, what should happen,
what could happen. And the only thing that I can base my
decision on is our track record for the last eight months,
and it's been well below 50 percent all the way through.
And I just -- you know, I guess -- I guess we could say, you
know, this is the down time of the year and everybody's run
out of money and all that. I guess we could say, well,
about April we're going to be full. You know, I mean,
but --
money.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then they run out of
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then they run out
of money. But you're back -- or I'm back on the decision of
this might happen or this could happen or this should happen
and maybe going to happen. I just don't -- I don't think
that's a good way to take care of the public's money. I
just --
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: What --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- I need something a
little more firm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why can't -- or explain
to me what's wrong with staffing for 36, which seems to be a
number that we can kind of attain, and operating at that
level, and then, you know, if we get, say, at full occupancy
long enough, then you bump it up to add another set of 12 to
get to 48.
MS. HARRIS: There's nothing wrong with that.
But please keep in mind that finding quality staff and the
expense of training people, and they might stay and they may
not stay, and finding quality applicants that will make good
juvenile detention officers, and then do you want to put
them on full-time? Do you want to put them on part-time?
Then if the population goes down below 44, then do you want
to lay those people off? And we certainly don't want the
facility to get a reputation of you hire full-time people
and then -- well, population goes down, then you're going to
get laid off. Then you won't have anybody to apply. So,
that's something else that we need to look at.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only -- I don't think
we have a 36-bed proposal from Mr. Stanton. We do from you.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We have from
25 I Ms. Harris.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is predicated on
$83 a day.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The problem is, there's
evidently a difference in philosophy of how to run the
facility, 'cause Mr. Stanton's are lower on the expense side
than Ms. Harris', it seems to me.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the way it
shakes out.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. So, I mean -- you
know, so it's hard to look at Ms. Harris -- we're comparing
back and forth, and obviously that's another issue as to the
administration side of the facility, because Ms. Harris'
36-bed shows a potential deficit of 336,000 at 100 percent,
so I suspect that if you go down to 75 percent, you're
looking at over $500,000 deficit. But Mr. Stanton's is
either more optimistic or has something different, because,
I mean, his obviously is a -- there's a difference
somewhere. Who wants to explain the difference? That way I
can figure out what --
MS. HARRIS: His is the cheapest.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the difference?
MR. STANTON: The biggest difference is -- I
mean, and you can look at -- compare ours. The biggest
difference in mine and Ms. Harris' is staff, the -- the
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payroll. I mean, that's -- any of the -- in any of the
deals that you can compare the two, I mean, the big
difference is the -- is the payroll, the number of staff.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if the number of
staff is mandated by the State, how can that vary?
MR. STANTON: Well, you're talking about --
the detention officer numbers are pretty much the same; it's
the other staff that is less.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MS. HARRIS: Who did you lay off?
JUDGE TINLEY: Hmm?
MS. HARRIS: I asked him who he laid off.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, let's see.
MR. STANTON: I mean, you have a copy of it.
I mean, I gave you a copy of it Thursday, whenever it was --
Wednesday.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 44 -- no, that's 44.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, that's the
nature of the business of government; staff is the costs,
whether it's the Sheriff's Department or Maintenance
Department or the jail.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, about a hundred
and -- if you looked at the two scenarios and the
differences really truly are in -- in labor costs, under
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Mr. Stanton's for a 24 -- 48-bed pre and post, his labor
costs are running about 818,000 projected, and Ms. Harris'
budget's 972,000, so you've got 160-some-odd thousand
dollars -- $170,000 there -- $160,000 difference in salary
costs, for openers. Then the other part of the equation is
-- is on the revenue side. Becky's talks about 44 residents
at $83 a day, and there are some differences in how that is
structured in the scenario prepared by Mr. Stanton.
MS. HARRIS: And, too -- and I think in
Kevin's budget, he's got 24 juvenile detention officers.
That's detention officers and shift supervisors put
together, 'cause they're both certified juvenile detention
officers.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
MS. HARRIS: That's on 48. On my 36 --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: How about your 44?
'Cause doesn't 44 -- the staff's the same between your 44
and his 48, correct?
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 44 can take you to
22
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24 apples.
25
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's apples to
MS. HARRIS: And the reason why his is
48.
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cheaper is because he's got four shift supervisors and 20
detention officers.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And have you 8 and 16.
MS. HARRIS: Right. Now, this is obviously a
difference in philosophy. Those eight shift supervisors are
veteran people that know the programs inside and out and
that can train -- do the O.J.T. training on any additional
staff that we would have to add, which we wouldn't at 48,
but if you had somebody quit and you had to hire somebody
new, your shift supervisors are the veteran staff that's
been there, that knows that program inside and out and the
nuts and bolts of that. Plus, they can work a dorm; if
somebody calls in sick, they can work a dorm and maintain
your ratio. They're the ones that do the laundry. They're
the ones that do the snacks. They're the ones that do the
mess.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There are some other
differences, too. Which, again, it's, I guess, how -- how
you look at the operation. There's a preadjudication
coordinator in one budget and not in another. Control
operators are in one budget and not in another.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What are control
operators?
MS. HARRIS: They're the people that are in
the control room that operate the doors, that watch the
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monitors, and after-hours answers the phone, because you
have control operators 24/7. They work 12-hour shifts, just
the same as everybody else, and they're the ones that, like
I said, they work the control panel.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But could you have a
detention officer doing that actual job?
MS. HARRIS: No, sir, 'cause he can't be off
the dorm.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, when you're --
when you're in the control room, you're controlling doors,
are you not? I mean, isn't that the basic idea, is to make
sure the doors are open so people can move from A place to B
place?
MS. HARRIS: And after 5 o'clock, the control
person has to answer the phone, and that's a lot of the time
when your pre's come in. And they're the ones that have to
have the video camera ready, and they are also watching the
monitors while the shift supervisors are out doing whatever
it is that they need to do on the floor. They are also
watching monitors, and they have the ability to see things
and notify the shift supervisors or the dorm staff. And
your control operators work at a cheaper salary than your
J.D.O.'s.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know what I want to
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kevin?
MR. STANTON: Yes, sir?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why do you not have
control operators in your budget?
MR. STANTON: Why do I -- because I have -- I
have six detention officers on the floor at a time, one in
each dorm, one rover, and one in the control room.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And you can rotate
those people --
MR. STANTON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- around?
MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. At the most, you
would have four dorms occupied.
AUDIENCE: The control doesn't count in the
ratio.
MS. HARRIS: Right. When they're in control,
you can't count them. That's why I don't certify the
control operators as J.D.O.'s. That's why they work at a
cheaper salary.
MR. STANTON: But even with five on the
floor, it's still in ratio.
MS. HARRIS: If you've got 48 kids, you got
to have six people in the count.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Six people in the
count meaning?
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MS. HARRIS: If you've got 48 kids, that's
1-to-8.
JUDGE TINLEY: Six certified officers is what
you're talking about?
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, 1 per 8.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we're not going to --
I mean, I guess I don't understand. We're never going to be
at 48.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, not likely.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, if we're at
75 percent, you're at 36, which is what history says we're
going to be at, and what occupancy says you're going to be
at. You may want to be at 48, but reality says you -- I
mean, you are -- if you're going to have preadjudicated and
have the flicks there that you're going to have to have,
you're going to be at 30 to 36. I just don't see -- I don't
understand why you'd staff at 48. I can't get over that
point. So, I'm looking at the 36 proposal now.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that progressive
staffing, or is that stationary staffing? Staffing goes up
as the count goes up? Or --
MS. HARRIS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- you've got them
all in there?
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MS. HARRIS: Staffing goes up when your count
goes up.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, they're not all
there in the beginning?
MS. HARRIS: Correct.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. If the goal is
to get to 48, then you're locked at 36 -- you staff at 36;
is that correct?
MS. HARRIS: That's right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if you're cutting
back the revenue accordingly, then you got modification on
the expense side as well.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think what I'd like to
see is the 36-bed proposal, which we have from Ms. Harris.
I think we have -- I don't know if we have a 36 from Kevin.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm looking for it.
I'm not finding it. Did you do a 36? Did not. That's why
you can't find it.
JUDGE TINLEY: No, he didn't.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have a -- he's done 24
and 48.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
MR. STANTON: The only two proposals that I
looked up were the 44 -- or the 48 for pre and post, and
then just a 24 pre facility only, no post.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I'd like to see, I
guess, Ms. Harris' number, really look at the -- you know,
maybe you can't look at it; maybe you looked at it all you
can. The staffing or on the expense side, if there's any
way that we can cut that and put it at a 75 percent
occupancy, because that's, I think, a real number.
MS. HARRIS: 75 percent of --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 36.
MS. HARRIS: 36?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 36 is 75 percent.
MS. HARRIS: Okay. I've already, on mine,
laid off three people. And I know the value of experienced
detention officers, and I know the value of the experienced
shift supervisors, and I would really hate to jeopardize
that, because I know how difficult it is to hire people and
train them to be quality juvenile detention officers. It's
hard. And when you've got -- I'm not saying staff 48 and
you're only bringing in 36; that's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is, the value of some of the people that we
have out there right now is valuable because of their
experience and their ability to handle situations.
JUDGE TINLEY: What kind of part-time
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category do you have available to you on J.D.O.'s and
control people?
MS. HARRIS: We get several applicants for
part-time people. It's finding people that will be
committed, that's available whenever you call them, and we
have to work around each part-time person's alternate
schedule, because they've got another job. So, so-and-so
you can only call in and they can only work from 6:00 to
10:00; then so-and-so you can only call in on weekends. So,
you've got to have a large pool so you can have the
flexibility of calling people in whenever you need them, and
most of the time it's spur of the movement. And, plus,
people that turn out to be people that will follow the
policies and procedures and, you know, do proper
documentation, and that makes a quality J.D.O. And it's an
extensive weeding out process. It's not --
JUDGE TINLEY: The weeding out has pretty
well occurred during the last six, eight months.
MS. HARRIS: Yes. And we've got a real
strong pool of some part-time men right now, but we've got
one that is resigning 'cause he's going to go back to school
full-time, so we're going to lose him. We've got another
individual that was a really good part-time. He has
resigned 'cause he's got a full-time job on top of the
part-time job with us. Now, our female part-time J.D.O.'s,
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we only have one right now.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think I'd like to
see one more set of numbers so we can be confused a little
bit more. 36, and in addition -- with 36 beds, and keep in
mind about a 70, 75 percent occupancy, and scale the expense
side down accordingly as well as the revenue side. Can I
get that from both sides of this philosophical debate here?
JUDGE TINLEY: I think the revenue is already
scaled down on this side, because --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But the expense is
not.
JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think Ms. Harris has
any of the 105 or 115, because of the reality of -- reality
of how many --
MS. HARRIS: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- registered sex offenders
you're going to get.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
MS. HARRIS: Right. Which will probably be
none.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: None?
MS. HARRIS: None. I don't think we'll ever
get a registered sex offender kid.
JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want an explanation of
that?
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do.
JUDGE TINLEY: The court that places the
child is normally very, very reluctant to require the
registration of a child in a juvenile situation. Now, if
there -- if it's a very egregious case, they'll certify the
child as an adult and the case will go on up and you won't
have to worry about it. But in a juvenile situation, judges
are very reluctant to require registration, because they can
always order registration later depending upon the success
or not of the -- of the rehabilitation and treatment
program. So, they -- they like to use that as an incentive
to the child for successful rehabilitation. So, the normal
case where you'd say, well, the register -- the requirement
that child be a registered sex offender, that's the kind of
case that's going to get certified to be tried as an adult,
so they're taken out of the juvenile system.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, how does that
translate into what we're talking about here in terms of
offering that program and -- and its marketability?
JUDGE TINLEY: You still are able to offer
the program to sex offender children, but your ability to
get a higher rate because they are not, quote, registered
sex offenders doesn't come into play. It has you treating
those children and having them as residents in your program
at the normal rate.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the 115 rate
versus --
MS. HARRIS: 80.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MS. HARRIS: 85.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Versus 80?
MS. HARRIS: 85.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 85.
MS. HARRIS: That's why I'm saying six
registered sex offenders at $105 a day. I don't believe
we'll ever have one registered sex offender. Now, I believe
that our sex offender population is going to increase, kids
that are sent to us for sex offender treatment, but they
won't be registered sex offenders.
MR. STANTON: Could I explain why I put that
in there, since it seems to be a topic of debate? I called
around to the facilities that offer sex offender treatment
programs that are near us, and they're listed at 115 a day,
115 a day, 119 a day, and 104 a day. Those are the four
facilities that I called, so that is the only reason I
plugged that number in there, was because that was even
less -- or Hays County charges $104 a day for sex offenders,
and that's a facility that we contract with now to provide
services for our county for certain kids. And so that is
the only reason I plugged that $105 a day number in there.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What does Hays County
offer that we don't offer that would allow them to charge
$104 a day?
MS. HARRIS: That was under the old Level 5
system. As of September 1, this next fiscal year, T.J.P.C.
is only going to have the -- the maximum amount of money is
$85 a day for Level 5 kids, which is what those sex offender
kids could fall into. And they're not -- $85 is all they're
going to offer.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's T.J.P.C.?
MS. HARRIS: T.J.P.C. is only going to
reimburse 85.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Reimbursement to a
county?
MS. HARRIS: That's right. That's why I put
$83 a day across the board revenue for every kid that we
get, because $85 a day is the maximum amount that T.J.P.C.
is going to reimburse on Level 5 kids, except for registered
sex offenders, which will be 115. 'Cause I talked with
Vicky Spriggs about that last weak to confirm that that was
right, what I heard at the postlegislative conference was
right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff has his hand
up.
JUDGE TINLEY: What do you got, Sheriff?
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The one problem I have
with this, and the serious question I have with it is -- it
hasn't come back up -- is what it actually costs to house a
kid per day in y'all's programs.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What it costs to
what?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: House a kid one day
through those programs. I heard back during a lot of the
Commissioners Court meetings -- I think some of the minutes
can be done -- that the cost is up to $144 a day, and we're
only charging $83 a day. I don't see any revenue coming --
it's very marketable. They're very marketable programs.
But if I get something and sell it for less than what it
costs me, it's not too good a business deal. And the other
problem I have with revenue is, this revenue is figured on
all the kids at the facility, including Kerr County's. Kerr
County's revenue, then, the way that is derived, it goes
from the general fund of the county budget to the Juvenile
Probation. She bills the Juvenile Probation; it goes back
to her and back to the general fund. Now, what would be the
difference in that, 'cause that's just a loop there, than me
starting to charge the County $83 a day for every Kerr
County inmate I have in the jail, which is all 160 right
now, and claim that as revenue?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't you ask
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that question to the Auditor? He just walked in. He's the
guy who's got the answer.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Him and I have talked
about it once before. It's a circle. It's not revenue.
What you're talking about, trying to say that you're making
revenue and how we're going to break even is not revenue and
is not breaking even.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is revenue to the
Juvenile Detention Facility.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It is not revenue to the
taxpayers of this county. It's the expense of -- of the
taxpayers, 'cause that's where it goes, and they're still
paying it. It's just shuffling it -- it's an eggshell going
from one budget to the other.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where it's revenue is if
it's state funds that are used.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, it's not state
funds. It's Kerr County funds.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, no, but on -- in
Kevin's case, the way he operates his, the post is all state
funds.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The post. And that's
why, back in the other deal -- and Kevin had it in one of
his; there was a recommendation in one of the proposals that
he might come up with y'all of closing it to a 24-bed
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preadjudication facility, take care of our kids -- Kerr
County kids, and the surrounding ones, charge them the
preadjudication. It's not that expensive. The
postadjudicated kids, we're sending out. We get reimbursed
from the State for those. That cost is not there.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff, I'm going to
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We have good
scenarios, not so good scenarios, and bad scenarios. The
one you just painted is the worst. It's $485,000 worth of
red ink.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It is more than 485,000
of red ink in any of those other scenarios because you're
counting revenue that is not revenue.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Auditor, do you
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Let me ask him.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It would be hard to
help him, 'cause he's right.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The money goes from the
county general fund to the Juvenile Probation Department.
She bills the Juvenile Probation Department for housing Kerr
County kids, so then that money goes right back into the
general fund from the Juvenile Probation Department on the
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billing, on the revenue that you're receiving from that
bill, even when they pay the bill.
MR. TOMLINSON: It goes to that fund.
MR. TOMLINSON: No.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It goes back into her
budget line which is called Revenue, but it's still Kerr
County money; it's still staying in the overall picture of
Kerr County money.
MR. TOMLINSON: That's right.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: How can you consider
that revenue? If I bill Kerr County --
MR. TOMLINSON: You're placing --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If I bill Kerr County
for Kerr County kids, then in my jail --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let him answer.
MR. TOMLINSON: If you didn't spend it -- you
didn't use the funds here, you'd use it somewhere else.
MS. HARRIS: 'Cause you got to place those
kids someplace else.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm not saying place
those preadjudicated kids anywhere else. I'm just saying
call it like it is. You're calling our kids revenue too.
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I agree on that 100 percent. But I'm -- what I'm saying is,
you're -- either way, a juvenile facility is like operating
that jail; it's going to cost the taxpayers. But don't try
and say that you're making revenue off this when you're not
making revenue. If I turn around next month and bill this
county even $35 a day for every Kerr County inmate I have in
that jail, and then I say the jail's making this revenue,
but I'm still taking that money from the County --
regardless of whether it goes through Adult Probation or
anything else, I'm still taking it -- how can I sit there
and say I've made revenue?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, we talked about
this. What happens is -- I mean, is Kevin has told us it's
going to cost us $300,000 if we don't have a facility in
this county. Currently we're spending $120,000, so it takes
$200,000 more to not have this facility.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's -- I'm saying not
have it 24 beds.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I'm saying that's
how -- that's the number we're -- that's what we have, the
200,000, 250,000 deficit.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Have a 12-bed
preadjudicated facility, okay? The postadjudicated, most of
those kids, the history of this county is we've sent them
25 ~ out of county. We get reimbursed from the State for the
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post.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: See, what --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You take the cost of the
pre; you bill the surrounding counties for housing those.
You don't bill $83 a day when it costs you up to $144 to
house that post.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, understood.
And so the object is to try to get the expense down
somewhere in the vicinity of where the revenue should -- is
or should be. That's the object, obviously. That's where
the red ink comes in. You've got more expenses than you got
revenue.
MS. HARRIS: And the number that you heard
was 140, and that was pre and post put together, and that
was in the month of May only.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, see, the problem
comes in that if you have -- what you're saying is right,
Rusty; I don't disagree. But if you have the -- in that
facility out there we have no pre kids, then it's sitting
there and you're paying people to do nothing. If you put
some post kids in there -- that's why, even though you may
not be recovering the full amount, you're staffing for 24 no
matter what do you. Well, you might as well put some post
in there to help pay for it, because we're never going to
have 24 pre kids out of Kerr County. So, we're trying to
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keep it full, and the only way we can fill it up is with
post kids, or fill up whatever the --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what we did with
the adult jail, but we contracted with the surrounding
counties to help their overflow to help keep the jail full
so we don't have that staffing problem, and then we added
staff as the total population went up.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what we're talking
about doing, is that, and that's why we're talking about
post -- putting post in there, because with pre only and for
Kerr County only, you never can keep any kids out there.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My only -- the only real
problem I have as a taxpayer is considering this revenue.
It's not revenue.
JUDGE TINLEY: Relative to your situation, if
you were to -- for example, you've got about a $2 million
budget in your jail. You get maybe $150,000, $200,000 in
per year for outside -- or at least you have. Obviously,
that's --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- slowly narrowing.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I believe this year it's
going to be way low, because we're full.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think year before last was
something like $200,000, plus or minus. If we take the
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parallel	to that --	and in	Ms.	Harris'	case,	what we'	d
exclude	from revenue	would	be	what was	paid	for Kerr	County
children, and that would reflect the true cost number. In
your case, rather than your cost being $2 million, it would
be 1.8. In her case, it would be -- true cost would be much
larger. And I see where you're coming from there, if it
were truly a parallel situation. I think what the Auditor
is doing is treating it as -- it's an accounting function
that he's performing here. Now, if -- I suppose it could
very well be that we use your calculation of $37 a day,
whatever you're charging everybody else, and he could figure
out what your true cost is that's -- that the spread is
running.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. But in our
JUDGE TINLEY: Why he doesn't choose to do
that, I don't know.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In our case, the $37 a
day is more than what it costs us to house that individual,
okay? In her case, $83 a day is about half of what it costs
her to house that -- well, not half; I take that back.
About two-thirds of what it costs her to house that
individual. So, there's a deficit there where we don't do
it when we could house out-of-county.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What you're basing --
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But there's a lot of
difference, Sheriff, and you recognize this, 'cause we've
talked about it before. You're into detention, period.
She's into detention and rehabilitation. There's a lot of
difference there.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's exactly -- but if
we -- rehabilitation, except for what the school actually
provides, 'cause I think they're mandated to have their
teachers out there to teach that part as long as we have a
facility out there. That's part of their stuff. The --
'cause we're not paying for those school teachers to be out
there; the school's paying for it, okay? That's already
there and programmed in. That's going to be there. That's
not an extra program. But the rehabilitation part of
housing for post kids, if -- if we can house those, like,
the history in the county has been that the post kids, they
are sending them somewhere else normally to be housed, and
the county is getting reimbursed from the state for that
cost, okay, for those kids. Instead of, you know, paying
for the cost, we're getting reimbursed for that cost, so why
should we not use that facility for a preadjudication
facility and cut down the number you're going to start out
with in staffing from 48 to whatever -- to 24? The staff
amount for 24, you're saying you're not going to house 24
pres. Cut the staff down to a number that you would house.
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Because my understanding, in meetings with Becky, is if you
house pre's and you house post, you have to have separate
staff -- complete staff for pre's and posts. That ratio is
totally separate; that's two complete staffing for those,
for pre's and for posts. And then you divide up also the
males and females.
JUDGE TINLEY: The simple answer to your
question, Sheriff, is you use the post revenue to stabilize
the escalating deficit that you incur from the wildly
fluctuating numbers that you get with the preadjudication
population, and as the population increases, your overall
deficit goes down.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: And it's a bottom line number;
it's not a per-child number. Obviously, if you were going
to strictly look at a per-child, you go out in the
marketplace and you charge $37 a day, which is enough to
offset your cost. But if that won't bring you children in
the marketplace, you will have zero, and you'll have an
empty facility.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My staffing ratio is
1-to-48 through Jail Standards, all right? For --
regardless of what kind I house. What is your staffing
ratios required for preadjudicated kids?
MS. HARRIS: 1-to-12.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. If you had a
preadjudicated facility and staffed it at 1-to-12, if you're
saying we're not going to have 24 or staff it for 24, that's
two staff members; that's 10 staff around the clock. If you
figure five, you know, to cover round-the-clock for
preadjudication, then you have staffed, just with using two
at each time, for 24 year-round. You know, it's kind of --
sometimes -- and there's been a time or two this year where
my inmate staff has dropped to 130. We didn't lay off or
cut down. Now, there's been times it hit 200, okay, but
we've still staffed to handle that. That new building out
there is built to house 24. Staff it to house 24. Your
cost for that is still going to be less to the overall
taxpayers of this county. I'm not talking -- I'm talking
about -- forget calling this revenue stuff; it's still the
taxpayers' money. It's still our money, whether you put it
in one and take it out to the other.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is over and above
what revenue comes in for post, particularly. You can only
-- and there are -- there are pre's that come in from other
counties as well, so there's revenue that comes from that.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. I go back to
the scenario that I told you a minute ago, Sheriff. It's
been worked up. Eleven residents, one building, all pre.
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It is absolutely the worst case scenario. It shows red ink
of $738,000. Now --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A part of it is, Sheriff.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 'Cause you're still
trying to count this as revenue. It's still Kerr County --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Add 125,000 to that.
$850,000 red ink, then. I don't mind -- I don't mind you --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If you take out what
y'all are looking at here in trying to figure this up, if
you take out what you're considering revenue, that it's
really not revenue, your red ink is going to be over that
125,000.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rusty, all you got to do
is -- we spend $125,000 a year on preadjudication. Add that
to every number, and you've done exactly what you want, and
it doesn't change the direction that you need to try to go.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, it doesn't.
JUDGE TINLEY: Are you lobbying to get into
the taxi business, Sheriff? Is that what I'm hearing?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, sir, I'm not, but
I'm a taxpayer too, okay? And I've done this law
enforcement deal with the juvenile kids in the county for 25
years, and I have seen what has happened.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't disagree, Rusty.
Add 125,000 to every bottom line on here.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In Kevin's line item
here, 48-bed proposed pre --
MR. STANTON: That's not mine.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, her budget.
$2,188,000. Next one, 24-bed pre proposed, $935,000 total
cost. That's a million dollars difference right there.
MS. HARRIS: That's with 24 pre's in there.
You're not going to have 24 pres.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Either one of those, if
you want to do what you say, you take it -- on the revenue
side, take away $125,000. That's what we're spending.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Revenue side, you take
away any of Kerr County kids, 'cause it's not revenue.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. It's $125,000.
Rusty, all we're doing is -- spending is 125 or a hundred
and -- isn't it 125, you said, Kevin?
JUDGE TINLEY: We're going nowhere. We're
going nowhere.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with the Sheriff;
you need to add the number in, but it doesn't change the
direction of the numbers.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It doesn't. Doesn't
affect anything.
JUDGE TINLEY: You understand your homework
assignment?
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MS. HARRIS: Come up with a ninth budget.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 36.
MS. HARRIS: 36 with a 70 to 75 percent
occupancy.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And if you go -- on the
24, you have the 24 that you gave us earlier?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, one building.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: One building, 24. I
can't -- I'm not sure if these are post or pre. It's all
pre?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I believe it's pre.
MS. HARRIS: That 24 is pre's only.
JUDGE TINLEY: Pre.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And is there a way to do
a 24 pre and post?
JUDGE TINLEY: That's a 48.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, 12 and 12.
MS. HARRIS: We've already got 15 boys now
and 8 girls. We got 21 post now in a low time of the year,
so you're going to have more than 12 post kids.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd rather turn them away
and keep it full than -- than -- if we can keep it full all
the time at 24 -- I mean, I'm just trying to figure out, is
this -- if you have 12 post, can you keep 12 post in there
and keep it full all the time? And then you have the
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balance for pre.
MR. STANTON: Well, I mean, you could look.
I mean, and if you -- you can see right here, I mean, what
the revenue would be. For 24 full-time kids at $83 a day,
it's 830,636. That's at $83 a day, 24 kids total, and
it's -- it's the back sheet of the red, green, and blue --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have that one
handy.
MR. STANTON: It's the blue and green one,
the second sheet.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Today's handout?
MR. STANTON: Yes, sir, that one that
Mr. Nicholson has. If you look under 100 percent occupancy
at 24 residents at $83 a day, the total revenue is 830,636.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. STANTON: And the cost to the County of
105,092. That's -- that's at this budget. If you look at
the 24 that Ms. Harris provided, it's give or take a few
more dollars.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, are you taking
a deep breath, or --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, I'm fine.
JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're narrowing
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in on either 24 or 36.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think so, too.
JUDGE TINLEY: Let's talk to the Maintenance
people, if we might. Glenn, still with us? Thought you'd
gone for courthouse security there a moment ago.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Man.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What an enviable
place to be, right behind Juvenile Detention.
MR. HOLEKAMP: No joke.
(Discussion off the record.)
JUDGE TINLEY: We're going to take about a
15-minute recess.
(Recess taken from 3:28 p.m. to 3:50 p.m.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to
order. We've been in recess and we'll come back to order,
and I think we've got Maintenance with us.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I promise you, if you let me,
I'll be through fairly quick. Want to start with 510?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What tab is Maintenance?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 15.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Or how -- do y'all have them
in order?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's good.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 15, 510.
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MR. HOLEKAMP: 510 would be the first one.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Are you giving us
this handout that correspondence to it?
MR. HOLEKAMP: That handout is some reading
material. You don't have to read that right this minute.
I'll -- some of the stuff may -- that we talk about may
begin there in y'all's packet. There's some names of
individuals which I prefer not to do in open court here,
mention people by their name, but I'll refer to them by
position, if y'all don't mind. Courthouse budget, I had no
problem with any of the Judge's numbers, other than I had
one change due to an increase in the contract fees.
Contract fees are people that are paid for after-hours work,
contract labor. I -- the one I failed to put in my original
budget with the Judge was the one that cleans the Union
Church. I failed to have it in there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What does that go to?
JUDGE TINLEY: It goes to 553.
MR. HOLEKAMP: 553.
JUDGE TINLEY:	And	what do	we	need to add?
MR. HOLEKAMP:	An	increase	of	3,000.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's 3,000 we need to add?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: So that needs to go to 11?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. I think it's 10,9,
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but I wanted to just do it at 11.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I had no other changes from
the Judge's recommendations.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Any other questions? Oh, on
Capital Outlay, the only thing I have, and it may be taken
care of through the generosity of the County Attorney's
office, is the closing in of the hallway downstairs, the
material for the closing in of the -- you know, the walk and
that little open area.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Tiling the floor and ceiling
tile, seal and paint the walls. That's basically what we're
planning on doing. The only other thing I need to do -- and
I don't call it a capital outlay; I call it major repairs --
is I need to change out the carpet in the Tax Office. It's
pretty bad. County Court at Law floor also.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Glenn, is that what
this 8,000 is?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That we had to add
some to it?
MR. HOLEKAMP: The 13,5.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 13,5?
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MR. HOLEKAMP: I'm sorry, the 13,5 that I had
put in the major repairs. I don't -- when I repair in the
courtrooms and offices, I think that should be major
repairs, not capital outlay, in my personal opinion.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So you're
talking about Line 550 under 510; is that right?
MR. HOLEKAMP: 550.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: The other thing is, is I need
2,000 in that major repair for the fire alarm. And what
that's going to do, just to brief you, is the fire alarm
currently has a leg on -- up in the penthouse, which is the
old jail up on the very -- up there on the roof, basically.
And to silence that alarm simultaneously with this one here,
you have to see how fast you can get up there. And the fire
alarm people have told me that by putting some sensors up
there, just normal sensors, we can do away with that box.
The fire marshal has agreed, and he said it would be a much
better system. So, we did not do it originally with the
construction of the annex, because the architect felt like
that was an unnecessary expense, so I want to get it done
this year, and that's $2,000 that our fire alarm people have
told me it would cost us.
JUDGE TINLEY: What's your total number,
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MR. HOLEKAMP: 13,5.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Couple questions.
This report that we have in our budget, it doesn't show
anything for FICA, group insurance, or retirement.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I didn't calculate those,
primarily from the standpoint I did not know if the -- if
there was going to be a cost-of-living. I asked for two
merit raises and one -- it's on the very back page of that
little thing I handed y'all, two merits and one change of
classification.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. Are you
proposing any changes in level of staffing?
MR. HOLEKAMP: No, sir.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Same this year as
last year?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. Now, there'll be
one additional with the Juvenile Detention Facility. I
understand that employee's coming over this way.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So you think some
employee's going to transfer from --
MR. HOLEKAMP: It's my understanding, sir.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. We had talked
about maintenance people being under the Maintenance guy,
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and --
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN
-- not under the
facility.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Glenn, your -- your numbers
that I'm looking at here on requested staffing are identical
from last -- to last year's budget.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. I did not change
the staffing on these worksheets which y'all provided me.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I changed it on the sheet that
I gave y'all, on that back page, but it -- it's one of those
things that --
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: -- I would really like the
blessing of the Court to approve these re -- realign --
there's some realignments. It -- it could change the bottom
line on the Maintenance budget. It can change the bottom
line on the Ag Barn budget substantially, because people are
being placed where they -- where they're working instead of
where they've been paid from. I'm trying to get it
straightened up as to reflecting what we're doing. What --
what has been done in the past is -- is our trustee program,
our community service program have expanded to the point to
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where we're getting a lot of help. What that has done is
allowed me the flexibility of utilizing them at the Ag Barn
for setups/teardowns under the supervision of one person or
two people; one in the parks, for example. We had six
people weedeating today, for example.
What happened prior to this is we didn't know
if we were going to get anybody or not to show up for
community service, so you had to -- when you wanted to do a
setup, you had to pretty well figure your people were the
ones going to be doing it. The trend now, I have the
trustees to -- if I get in a bind, all I have to do is call
the supervisor of the trustees and say, "B.J., I need help
for a couple of hours to do this, this, this, and this," and
it's done. We did not have that luxury before. We -- we've
started doing more contract work here at the courthouse with
our cleaning at night, which has eliminated a male employee
-- primarily a male employee here to change bulbs, to do
manual stuff, haul a bunch of boxes of paper someplace or go
to the dump. And I'm trying to line people up now to allow
them to work more in a broader area. I don't like this --
I've cross-trained just about everybody to where if
somebody's sick or is out on vacation, another one can
actually just step right in and you just tell them what
you -- whose area you're going to work, and they can do it.
I found that to be the best way to do it. I like it. My
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people seem to like it, plus it keeps them fresh. They
don't get real stale and say, "Well, I guess I'm going to
carry that block of ice all day." It's not that any more.
So, I'm asking the Court to consider that plan that I gave,
and be patient with us on the bottom line of the budgets,
because, as y'all all know, salaries is the -- is the big
hit on all of these budgets. But I'm trying to line them up
to reflect where the majority of their work is going to be
instead of the minority of their work.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Glenn?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two of these -- we
won't deal in names, but two of these -- of your employees
are -- you're proposing a modest increase as a merit. One
of them, however, is a major overhaul here. Can you address
that?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Talking about going
from a 15 to a 17.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Also in there, there should
have been, but isn't, I guess, a job description change. It
is a job description change. Goes from -- goes to a
Supervisor of Events and Maintenance.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Supervisor of what?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Of events and maintenance.
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99
That person is the one that does all the booking, does all
the scheduling,	does all of	the	-- all of	the booking of
facilities, also	supervises	the	setups of	Union Church, Ag
Barn, and works	with Texas	Star	-- yeah.	So, as I started
out my conversation when I first came -- after we lost our
assistant -- my assistant manager resigned, I thought --
last year at budget time I thought we could do it without an
assistant or someone I could call on to take that next
level, and I -- I found out that it's really hard to do
everything over a phone if you can't get out there.
Every -- everybody wants to see you at 8 o'clock in the
morning, and it's just physically impossible to be there.
So, I felt like this was the best deal, because this person
already works closely with the setups and the -- the
vendors. I felt like it would be prudent to do it this way.
This is still, I think, about $3,000 or $4,000 less than
what the assistant was at that time, but I chose not to call
it an assistant admin -- administrator or manager.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd rather -- on that
whole topic, I'd rather postpone that.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's fine.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got a question.
Two of these people are called Contract Custodial.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Who do you contract
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100
with?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Individuals. And they clean
after. 5 o'clock in the evening.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So it's not a
contract service?
MR. HOLEKAMP: No, no, no. It's individuals.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are they classified as
employees, or are they contract?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Contract labor. They get a
1099; isn't that right? At the end of the year?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was just surprised that
we could classify that position as contract, 'cause unless
they're bringing their own equipment, own supplies, I don't
think you can classify them as contract.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I thought you could contract
them by the hour.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We just need to check
with whoever does that to -- my understanding was if you're
furnishing direction and furnishing supplies, they're not
contract.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. Another
related question that goes the opposite direction is, should
we think about contracting out all maintenance/janitorial
services to a bona fide contractor?
MR. HOLEKAMP: We tried that, sir.
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101
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We tried.
MR. HOLEKAMP: About five years ago.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Don't go there?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Don't go there.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: All right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would think --
following up on Commissioner Letz, I think you better check
with the personnel office and define what's taking place and
define their involvement and our involvement, because I
think you may be real close, if not over the --
MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, I'll check with them to
see if there's a problem. But we've been doing it now at
the Adult Probation office for several years, I guess.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, but if it puts
you in cross -- crosswise with Fair Labor Standards Act,
then, you know, you need to think about it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just make sure that we're
following the -- the law.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay, I'll check on that.
Okay, that's courthouse.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm, okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Next one is jail.
JUDGE TINLEY: Jail maintenance, mm-hmm.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I had no changes. The only
thing I had is Major Repairs. I have $8,000 that I asked
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102
for, and it's floors in the halls at the Sheriff's
Department and Dispatch. I want to go with the floors
there. We're going to probably leave the offices in carpet.
Most of the offices are in pretty good shape, except there's
a squadroom, dispatch, and warrants area that need a
different floor.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I take it that's an
error on Line 316 under Requested?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, that was an error.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 600, not 6,000?
MR. HOLEKAMP: It's 600.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's correct.
JUDGE TINLEY: You should have gotten that on
the copy furnished to you.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It is, but it's --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, you've got it
in recommended for six.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It skews the bottom
line a little bit.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, sure does.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Any other questions on that?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Going back -- yes, I do
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have a question on the jail. With the age of that building
now, and I know a lot of things are beginning to break, do
we have enough budgeted for major repairs? Rusty?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you talking about
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There is -- in the jail,
there's only one area that I -- I don't know how major it's
going to be. Glenn may have seen it; he may not have. I
noticed it just the other day when I was showing an
architect through there, is a major water storage in the
boiler room, that the main tank in there has got a large
amount of rust down at the bottom and looks like it's
starting to seep, and if that tank has to be replaced,
you're probably going to have to even knock a hole through
one of the exterior walls of the jail to get it out and
another one in and take out all the boiler systems to
install that one. That could be a major expense, and I
don't know how long that tank's going to last. That's the
only major jail expense I see. The floors in the Sheriff's
Office area and that, the carpet, we've had some water leaks
over the years that have hurt that. That is going to -- is
part of that. And the only other thing that I notice that
we have up there all the time now is there are 24
air-conditioner units on top of that building, very large
air-conditioner units, and Glenn may be able to attest to
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the actual maintenance records on it. I just know I have
seen the air-conditioner people there -- I've offered them
an office, because they're there on an average of about
every other day. There are some -- a lot of repairs having
to be done on those units. They are costing --
MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, yeah, and a lot of it's
age. And the system in the jail is -- is so different than
here. There, due to state regulation, the Jail
Commission's, air-conditioners run 24/7. They're either
heating it or cooling it. There's never a stop. They never
stop. Most of them have secondary units. We have changed
out numerous compressors within the budget. But to predict
whether it's this year or next year or -- that's a tough
one. And I -- well, of course, as a maintenance person, I
would be a fool not to take more money if you offered it,
but to predict it, I'm not going to stand here and do that
right now. I couldn't.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the next couple
years, though, we're probably going to see some pretty
significant repairs out there?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, most definitely. And,
luckily -- I've got some maintenance issues on the side of
the building, as -- as the Sheriff just indicated, but I
really believe a lot of those with the -- the current
staffing of people that I have, I think a lot of these can
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be repaired by us, be fixed by us.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I really -- my guys are
getting that good at fixing things. I really appreciate it,
too. Okay. Y'all through with that one?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Want to go to Parks? 513.
This one really doesn't change, unless -- I made a comment
on -- is on parks, it really depends on the scope, what the
Court wishes to pursue as far as parks are concerned. If
we're going to manicure everything like Louise Hayes Park,
weekly or whatever, if that's the intentions of the Court,
we'll probably -- probably add fuel -- a considerable amount
of fuel to these budgets. I did not really do that much of
that, because I don't have a crystal ball; I don't know what
it's going to be. Road and Bridge has been very nice to us.
They charge us what it costs them to get fuel. I've been
very fortunate, and we appreciate it, but I don't know at
what point we're going to have a larger expense. And
Commissioner Williams and Commissioner Letz, we've talked
about this, the restroom situation at the parks, and there's
some options that we're looking at and have not pursued.
There will be some costs involved there with park
maintenance, with the restrooms, that sort of thing too,
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that -- I think we can probably fit it into our budget here.
So, I -- I've chosen not to add that to these budgets that
we're working on today.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glenn, I know I asked you
to price mowers and things.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- I don't know
if you want to talk about that now.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, I can, yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The current airport
budget has budgeted -- it's probably not going to be
expended, from what I've been told -- $48,000 for mowing.
They also have another $15,000 for the city staff doing --
mowing with more lawnmowers, weedeaters and that type thing.
If we were -- what -- or how would you go about -- if you
were to take over some of those responsibilities, how would
you work that in your budget?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, I'd probably need -- I'd
need a tractor and a -- and a mower. And the hand mowing --
which I call hand mowing, anything other than --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Big tractor.
MR. HOLEKAMP: -- big tractor be handled
in-house; all of this could be handled in-house with my
personnel. I think -- well, I think community service,
which are people that are not in jail, would be very
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eligible to do weedeating, mowing, that sort of thing. I --
and I'm not so sure we couldn't do it if -- if it was
scheduled properly. If we knew how big we were going to go,
how long -- I mean, all of these things which I -- I really
don't have a handle on. You know, one person told me it
takes -- it takes a week to mow it, and somebody else said
it took me two days to mow it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The gentleman that mows
it, how long does it take to mow?
AUDIENCE: I don't know
myself, but it takes roughly about 120
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 120
AUDIENCE: That's start
(Low-voice discussion o
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
if I'm hanging
man hours.
every time you mow?
to finish.
ff the record.)
One man, one tractor?
AUDIENCE: One man, one tractor -- one man,
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 120 hours.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
AUDIENCE: Roughly 120 hours. It just
depends how thick it is. Sometimes you get stuck between
rains, and it could go up to 150 hours. There's a lot of
land out there.
MR. ODOM: How many acres?
AUDIENCE: Roughly, I'm figuring 450 mobile.
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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 450 acres?
AUDIENCE: 450, 500 mobile. That's not
including ramps, runways, taxiways, anything like that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many times a year
do you mow it?
AUDIENCE: Like I say, again, depends on
weather. Anywhere from three to five times. Three to five,
roughly, average.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's over a
six-month period?
AUDIENCE: No, that's a year.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do you mow it
year-round?
AUDIENCE: Well, usually my mowing -- end of
mowing cycle, I'm anticipating two more mowings this year.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, roughly April
through September?
AUDIENCE: April through end of September.
Usually September to knock it through to next spring.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it could be
additional, and that's probably why the budget is 48.
AUDIENCE: I've been doing this over five and
a half years, and the most I ever mowed it has been five
times.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's something we may
want to just explore, and I know there's other people
concerned at the airport. Another option may be to -- we
can look at this even further -- use County employees
full-time at the airport, which frees up trustees to work on
county property more. I mean, it's one way of looking at
7 it.
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MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, that's what I --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: There is a real concern,
and I agree with it, that security at the airport --
MR. HOLEKAMP: But that could be --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But you could free up man
hours here and put man ours over there.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah. And on the price thing,
the number that was discussed was -- let's see, 30 --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think for the
benefit of the airport people, though, they just need to
know that however it turns out, we're not about to breach
the security of the airport or the airplane manufacturing
company or anybody else out there, or the hangars or
anything else out there.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Tractor mowing, somewhere
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're -- this budget is
not going to go into effect until October 1, so at the
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earliest, it'll be something we'll probably decide -- well,
we'll probably decide during the budget the direction,
whether we're going to do it or not, but it's not going to
be made today.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Is the trustee issue
or the security a legitimate issue --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- or a roadblock
somebody wants to put up?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a legitimate
issue. I think it can be worked around possibly, but I
think it is definitely a legitimate issue.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. There have
been a lot of legitimate expressions of concern.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the -- I just look at
the -- the amount coming out of the City budget as -- you
know, between Streets Department and the mowing contract,
it's a lot of money being spent on mowing out there. And
one of the problems we have is that the -- the City has not
broken it out exactly what their Streets Department is
doing. They've given us a paragraph that said they're --
they're doing this, this, and this. Well, it's real hard
for us to really quantify. So a lot of that, you know, I
think is -- we may be a year premature on some of these
things until we really find out exactly what they're doing
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out there. And they will be showing us that this year. I
mean, we will have a log of every employee that's done any
hours, I guess, go to the Airport Board. Mowing contract, I
think we'll just need to really figure out if that fits in
with the County's overall program of working with parks,
and, you know, we can consolidate and save money. That's --
that's on my come-back list.
JUDGE TINLEY: That takes us to the Youth
Exhibit Center.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. Now, to shorten the
question Commissioner Nicholson had earlier, how will it
affect on salaries and stuff, you -- you cut 106 in half and
put that half in the courthouse.
will be.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Say that again.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's where the difference
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Say that again.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. You take half of that
42,906. You see it? 106.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, mm-hmm.
MR. HOLEKAMP: You take that and you add it
to the Courthouse Maintenance employees. That will give you
the bottom line on -- that is the shuffle that I did.
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JUDGE TINLEY: The restructure.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Restructure. Proposed
restructuring. Okay? And then, of course, the 105 salary
would be increased based upon the restructuring that I chose
with the reclassification.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Requested, I should say.
Not --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Other than that, there are
really no major changes. We reduced the utilities by about
$5,000, and the reason for that is the new units that we
have on the roof. We should even do better than that if --
if everything goes well. Okay. Lease payments goes away
this year. That was on the Bobcat that we had. If y'all
want to give me $5,000, I'll take it. But on Capital
Outlay, the only thing that I would really like, and I do
not have prices on it, is I would really like to look at a
better air circulation in the indoor arena. I'd like to
look at something that will actually move that air.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you need to
do that. I think the ventilation is a huge problem in that
building.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That is correct.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And if you're going
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to do that, you got -- in my view, you have to keep --
whatever you try to design has to not only move air, but get
dust out of there.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's correct. That's what
I'm trying to get to.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And at the same time,
maybe you'd better be thinking about what you're going to be
doing about the electrical as well.
MR. HOLEKAMP: The electrical has been done.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Totally?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the arena?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, that's good news.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. We did that last
year; we got that completed. We did it in phases in our
budget.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we also have in the
arena, I mean, the air circulation issue, but that hasn't
been listed in the last couple months anyway a lot of
insulation is getting in bad shape. The whole inside needs
a power washing, for lack of another term. I don't know
what you power-wash it with, necessarily. Water, maybe.
But it needs a major facelift.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I will tell you that we are
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getting a good power washer through Adult Probation this
year. The only problem is, is if that pressure washer hits
that insulation up there, it's going to fly.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I'd be afraid to try to get up
in there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It may be -- I mean, I
don't know what the life of that insulation is, but it's --
I think it's about at the end of it.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's very possible. I could
look into that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I bought a power
washer a few months ago, and I was barefoot out there
cleaning up. I got grass on my feet, and I tried to clean
my feet off. I blew a hole in the top of my foot the size
of a quarter. I can't be trusted with heavy equipment.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It may be a sore
subject, 'cause we've talked about it in the past -- no pun
intended --
MR. HOLEKAMP: Sore subject.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The sound system.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we still
experienced problems in the arena last year, did we not?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, but a lot of it -- a lot
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of that problem is frequencies, and I don't know how we get
past some of that. But that metal building, the guy -- the
fellow with the sound people kept saying that we were
getting feedback off of that steel all the time. And if you
were positioned at the wrong place with these hand-fields is
where you had problems. If they got away to one side or
another, you didn't have problems. So, I -- we've got
enough money in the budget to get those people up here and
try to tweak that thing. There's no reason why that system
won't work.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It was -- it was
improved tremendously in the Exhibit Hall.
MR. HOLEKAMP: But it's -- you know, I -- I
think those people in San Antonio are more than willing to
come back and do what it takes to get it just the way we
want it. I really do. They're very, very accommodating
people.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Glenn, the survey
data we looked at a few months ago show -- when we compared
Kerr County to 13 or 14 other counties our size, shows that
we staff real heavy. And I'm bringing this up 'cause
there's almost nobody left here, and it seems what I'm
hearing is that we got more employees than every other
county, but no department has any accountability for that.
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How could you -- how could you cut your staff by a couple
people and still get your work done?
MR. HOLEKAMP: We could do it if -- is the
Sheriff still here? No, he's gone.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No. That's why I
brought it up.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Doggone. If he could assure
me warm-blooded people daily --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that as
distinguished from cold-blooded killers?
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah. Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: We could probably do it. But
there are some -- with any kind of either community service
or -- or trustee program, the variables of if they don't
show up, just ain't going to do it, I guess our -- our
employees and our -- and people in our courthouse, quite
frankly, we've spoiled them through the years of being able
to respond pretty quick on complaints, whether it be repairs
or deliveries or whatever, and I guess I pride myself on the
fact that we're a full-service maintenance department, and
we try real hard to do that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You do a lot of good
MR. HOLEKAMP: If we chose to have the Tax
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Office take their own plates out to Ingram -- we've already
had some back injuries in there. If we chose to have
everybody come to the courthouse to pick up their boxes of
paper or whatever, we could probably -- we could probably
eliminate a position.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me look at the
Exhibition Center.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: How many full-time
people report to work out there every day?
MR. HOLEKAMP: The parks man. The
maintenance guy at the Ag Barn. That's it right now.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Not a secretary?
MR. HOLEKAMP: No, she reports here right
now.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Two people report
the work here every day?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The parks person
doesn't --
MR. HOLEKAMP: But the parks person leaves.
He reports there.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So you don't have a
situation where it's -- it's feast and famine; that one day
you got 15 hours of work, and the next day you have no work?
MR. HOLEKAMP: No. That's the reason why I'm
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trying to shuffle this around, so I have people going where
they need to be.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I didn't like -- what you're
saying is -- I saw that happening, and we were following
each other around, and I really don't like doing business
that way.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, what do you do
when you have to set up for a major event in the arena?
MR. HOLEKAMP: A major event at an arena,
I'll know ahead of time when it's going to be. Either -- I
call out there at 8 o'clock in the morning. Steel tells me
whether he has community service or not. If he doesn't have
any, I'll send Tim from the courthouse, and I'll have Sonny
from the parks stay to help. That's how we do that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That gives me the flexibility
to operate that way.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Otherwise, there's not going
to be three guys sitting around there.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: But, Commissioner Nicholson,
you're right. You know, if the Court chose to -- to cut
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back employees, our -- our department would comply.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, I don't --
MR. HOLEKAMP: We can make it work.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know where
there's opportunities to do that. I do know that what I see
about the work of your people, I like.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, thank you.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This courthouse is
clean, and so's the annex, and --
MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, thank you. I appreciate
that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: But I'll get y'all a -- y'all
want a copy of that job description that I was talking
about? Was it in there?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's in here.
MR. HOLEKAMP: It should have been in there.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In this packet?
MR. HOLEKAMP: It was supposed to be in
there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The one about what
everyone's doing with their names? The names and what
they're doing?
JUDGE TINLEY: No, you're talking about the
new job description.
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MR. HOLEKAMP: That new one.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh. It's in here, too --
no, it isn't either.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Is this it?
MR. HOLEKAMP: No, it looks like the one
right in here.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We don't have that.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's all right. I'll get
y'all a copy of this. So --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I'll include it. I'll put it
in y'ap's box; would that be all right?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah.
MR. HOLEKAMP: But I think that's the
procedure, isn't it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's preferred.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you really think
you can work that air -- those air movers and improve that
circulation for $7,000?
MR. HOLEKAMP: No, sir, I left that out
because I didn't know if y'all wanted to pursue that or not.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to see it in
this estimate. I see it in here.
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MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, I had talked to
Compton's. That's been over a year ago, and they seemed to
think they could do some stuff to improve it. That's what
those numbers were based on in there. And the only thing
left would be the detention -- juvenile detention, and
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many buildings
we're going to operate.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And which one.
MR. HOLEKAMP: I will give you another little
thing to think about. The old building has no portable
generator, which it should have. The new building does.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we could just get a
hybrid of those two facilities, it would probably be a
pretty good location. One doesn't have a kitchen and one
does.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One doesn't have a
laundry and one does.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Any other questions of me?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No.
JUDGE TINLEY:	Thank	you,	sir.
MR. HOLEKAMP:	Jon's	still	thinking.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm thinking -- I'm
looking at Leonard; this question is really to Leonard. And
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I don't -- I'm thinking we're probably not going to want to
do this, but, Leonard, what would it do to your equipment if
we were going to put -- put parks under you?
MR. ODOM: I don't -- what does parks do?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mow. Mow and weedeat.
MR. ODOM: I don't want to weedeat. We don't
have the personnel to be doing that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't want to do
that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do mowing, and then pick
up the airport mowing. I mean, what do you have -- what I'm
looking at is, do you have enough tractors now that you can
do that?
MR. ODOM: I have four.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- but none of them
there are very big.
MR. HOLEKAMP: They're big enough.
MR. ODOM: They're 70-horse.
MR. HOLEKAMP: They're big enough.
MR. ODOM: Yeah.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's the ones they're
recommending to use.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 70-horse?
MR. ODOM: Yeah, 70-horse, double-bag,
15-foot is what we have.
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MR. HOLEKAMP: That is correct.
MR. ODOM: And I -- you know, I don't know
what all -- I'm listening to the gentleman back there. I
saw a number 466 he's talking about. I heard seven times
they mow. How many -- I don't know how much acreage is
involved in that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 450.
MR. ODOM: 450? And --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's wide open.
MR. ODOM: Well, it's wide-open, and I don't
know if that 450 encompasses concrete or what.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The airport's about
600 acres.
MR. ODOM: 600? I sort of thought a square
mile, something like that. So, I asked our people to go
take a look at it the other day when you brought this up.
They were optimistic. Dieter went out there, and, you know,
he does the mowing for us. He's in that, and they came
back -- with both of them doing it, they felt like a day. I
felt like two, to be conservative. But --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's bigger than they
think.
MR. ODOM: Like I say, there may be a whole
lot more area that I -- you know, that's outside the fence,
and --
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everything's inside the
MR. ODOM: Even Mooney and all like that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Everything inside.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everything inside the big
fence. Mooney has a fenced area there that's their own
little area, but it's all --
MR. ODOM: Even if I did four, looked at it
and I said, all right, maybe these guys are optimistic, and
they looked at it, and maybe there's things we don't -- say
it's four days. I looked at two days for seven cuttings,
and then that was $7,184.80, based upon use of my salaries
and my benefits, so that was 7,200. If you do -- that's two
days. If you do four days, that's a lot of cutting for -- I
mean, we don't -- I don't -- we don't mess around. We cut.
We move. And that's 14,000. If you're talking about -- I
would love to have that $48,000.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I bet you would.
MR. ODOM: As a matter of fact, I got a
number that says $63,000, is what you quoted.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the total.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, that's the total --
that's a lot of hand-mowing, too.
MR. ODOM: And there may be some hand labor,
25 I and I don't know about that.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There is.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I will say one thing.
In listening to the gentleman that does the mowing outside,
I think he probably is going to supply the other man that
was with him with the actual cost, 'cause he does a 1099 and
provides his equipment, and he is not paid anywhere near
that 48.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: He said he received
26,000 last year.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Less than half that. So
I don't know where that --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a budgeted number.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: These men are
contractors?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, the one guy -- the
one young man --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The heavyset one?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- that I asked the
question, he said it takes 120 hours to mow.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But he's the current
contractor for mowing.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He is, right. I
don't know who the little curly-headed fellow was.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: He owns an airplane.
MR. ODOM: One way to find out is go out
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there and someone show us what we need to do; let our people
mow it. We would have a pretty good idea, and have the
reputation it even gets more productive, but I -- I don't
know. And parks, I would assume that's down there below,
and across Third Creek there is a park, right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, it's just Flat
Rock.
MR. HOLEKAMP: It's not that much.
MR. ODOM: No.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It just seems that --
that we have equipment for you to mow, and we have equipment
for you to mow, and that doesn't make sense to me.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, but we don't have any
big equipment like he does.
MR. ODOM: He doesn't have that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All yours are little.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah. The biggest thing I got
is a 7-foot tractor.
MR. ODOM: Yeah.
MR. HOLEKAMP: And I have an old used tractor
from them.
MR. ODOM: Yeah.
MR. HOLEKAMP: So, no, I don't have the
capability to --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you could probably
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work the mowing of the airport into your current system?
MR. ODOM: Are you asking me to volunteer?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, I'm just asking if
you can do it.
MR. ODOM: I'm being facetious. If the Court
directs us to do that, that's what we're going to do. You
know, that's just --
MR. HOLEKAMP: You know, there's a
possibility -- and I'm volunteering it. I hate mixing
apples and oranges, but there's a good possibility we could
furnish two of our employees to run tractors at Road and
Bridge, you know, if it had to be. You know, if you're
short people.
MR. ODOM: Well, I --
MR. HOLEKAMP: You understand what I'm
saying?
MR. ODOM: I understand what you're saying.
Once we start mowing, we -- we go all the way through; we're
going to pick up again. And once we start, we'll have four
going out and -- and totally -- you know, we would have to
mow these as we move through or whatever. I was quite
curious how they got seven cuttings out of this, but, you
know, we --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was only five last
year.
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MR. ODOM: Well, you know, once we start
though, Commissioner, we're going to be low man on the totem
pole, and they're going to want it cropped at the cement,
and -- and, you know, it will -- it will grow. Let me
assure you, the City will never be satisfied.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The City doesn't own the
airport.
MR. ODOM: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They think they do, but
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They only own half of
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Jonathan, going back to
trustees, I'm more than happy to expand that and use that
for anything that we can possibly use it for, whether it's
mowing or not. I'm real questionable about ever putting a
trustee on a regular tractor. I think Glenn's push mowers
are perfect for them, and then they would have --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't see how you can
monitor them, really, if they're driving tractors.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's really hard to do.
As far as just getting a lot more labor out at all the
parks, pick up, clean up roads, whatever that we can use
them for to free up other County employees to do other
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things, I -- you let me know what it is, and we can sure try
and expand that program.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's what I was looking at,
is how you could free up our guys, so his guys can do the
stuff that --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bottom line, what it
boils down to -- I'm not, you know -- conceptually, if we
can reduce an employee somewhere, we can switch -- or reduce
somewhere over here, get a deputy, and we get four more
workers doing weedeating and lawnmowing, that type of work.
That's the way I look at it. We can switch a Maintenance or
a Road and Bridge -- I don't think -- Road and Bridge won't
work, but you can switch a Maintenance person salary to a
deputy salary, and then we're basically getting -- for no
more cost to the County, we're getting four more workers.
But --
JUDGE TINLEY: Leonard, when do your guys
start their mowing in the spring?
MR. ODOM: We start in -- it depends on the
weather. If we get it -- if we get a lot of rain or
something, we may start in, but we start in around the
middle of May, maybe toward the latter -- we try to get in
right before Hermann Sons starts to open, so we'll run that
area right there and open up. And we'll run -- we'll start
25 ~ another mowing here probably toward the end of this month,
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first of September, maybe right after Labor Day. Some areas
are already jumping up, this Johnson grass. Depends on the
area.
JUDGE TINLEY: But once you start mowing, all
your machines are in service?
MR. ODOM: They're in service.
JUDGE TINLEY: They stay in service
continuously?
MR. ODOM: Continuously. We mow the whole
county. So, I -- you know, if we do it, we could find out
how they're doing and run through it and swat it and get
it done.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, you also do four
tractors out there. Back on the airport, we can put four
tractors at the airport, too.
MR. ODOM: Well, does the airport -- the
airport had a tractor, and they have a tiger arm and
something else there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know what
that's --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Airport has a
tractor?
MR. ODOM: I believe so. I saw --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or the City?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The City has one.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: City equipment.
MR. ODOM: That's City equipment.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we could put multiple
tractors at the airport.
MR. ODOM:
and -- and mow it and see
curious to -- if they say
like to put my people out
the final consumption is.
COMMISSION
Well, to
how long
it needs
there an
ER LETZ:
me, I'd put two together
it takes. I'm just
to be mowed, I'd just
~ let's just find out what
It's under contract for
the time being.
MR. ODOM: Huh? Okay. But I think -- can it
be done? Yes, it can. And can we work it in? Yes. We
just need to know. I would just see things growing, because
that's the nature of the beast. If someone else is doing
it, then there's more mowing. But if --
COMMISSIONER LETZ:
it's a pretty defined area. If i
or will be, it needs to be mowed.
MR. ODOM: Well, I
mean, the question is, what's the
When will they call again?
COMMISSIONER LETZ:
contract, and I'm sure all that's
Well, it's pretty much --
is inside a 10-foot fence,
I mean --
have no problem, but, I
elevation of the grass?
We have a copy of the
specified. I mean, I --
AUDIENCE: Yeah, it's 4 inches.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: 4 inches.
MR. ODOM: Okay. We could work it in. I
mean, we'll just have to take a look at -- get used to what
they're doing. I don't have -- time-wise, it's ranged from
120 hours, which is -- to me, right now, at 466 hours,
that's three months. That seems an awfully long time, just
off the 466 that I got off that spreadsheet. 160 hours to a
month.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Well, anyway, we
can look at it and see.
MR. HOLEKAMP: But I would like to ask one
thing. If we're -- if we're really leaning that way where
we're going to eliminate a position in my department or
whatever, I'd like advance notice so these people would have
an opportunity -- or this person would have an opportunity
to find a job elsewhere.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're just brainstorming
right now.
MR. HOLEKAMP: No, but I just -- that -- I
just wanted y'all to understand that I would appreciate
that, if we could.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure.
MR. HOLEKAMP: 'Cause I really have good
people.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, I know. And there --
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and there also maybe a thing -- I mean, you and I have
talked before that more of our facilities are getting older
and older. There's a lot of big projects, or kind of more
big maintenance; not day-to-day maintenance, just more
five-, ten-year maintenance. Painting is going to have to
start to be undertaken.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you can shift one of
your people into a job like that, and then -- you know, it's
really not savings, but it will -- it's something we need
to -- really need to look at long-term maintenance in a lot
of our facilities. The jail's now getting old. Animal
Control is getting old, Extension, Road and Bridge building.
We have a lot of buildings. You know, if we start getting a
handle on them and doing that, you know, you can almost put
one person full-time on major maintenance.
MR. HOLEKAMP: That's fine. I mean, but it
still has to be kind of budgeted so we know.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. We're just trying
to figure out where we are right now.
MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, and that's fine.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I haven't even seen a tax
MR. TOMLINSON: You have one.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have one?
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JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I saw that, but I
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Do you want to give us
a little update on this, Mr. Auditor, so that -- tell me if
this thing says what I think it says.
MR. TOMLINSON: Well, before I get into this,
there -- there's something I -- that's snuck through the
Legislature that not many people know about --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, boy.
MR. TOMLINSON: -- that is going to have an
effect on our part-time people -- employees. Effective
January the 1st of '06, every part-time employee has to pay
into the retirement system, so that will automatically
reduce every part-time employee's salary by 7 percent.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: By how many?
MR. TOMLINSON: By 7 percent. And -- and
then we -- then we have to turn around and match that
7 percent.
JUDGE TINLEY: 7.9, isn't it?
MR. TOMLINSON: Well, yeah, 7.9 percent.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that regardless of
25 ~ SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And they don't have a
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choice.
MR. TOMLINSON: They don't have a choice.
JUDGE TINLEY: The .28 that goes in for that
death benefit, does that also apply?
MR. TOMLINSON: What?
JUDGE TINLEY: There's a .28, I believe --
maybe it's .29 that goes in for the death benefit.
MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah, that goes in too.
JUDGE TINLEY: That also applies to
part-time?
MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: So, we got 7.9 plus .28.
MR. TOMLINSON: Well, no, no, no. I'm sorry.
Okay, the 7.9 is on -- that's correct, Your Honor. You're
right.
JUDGE TINLEY: But the death benefit then
doesn't apply --
MR. TOMLINSON: No.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- to a part-time? Okay.
MR. TOMLINSON: But you -- what I want you to
think about is -- is before December the 31st of '06, the
Court has the option to exempt some part-time positions
from -- from that legislation, so -- and that's an issue
that -- that you need to think about before -- before we
finish the budget, because if you decide not to budget for
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the retirement on these part-time people, then -- then you
need to decide which ones you want to pay on and which ones
you don't, or if you want to pay on them all. So, this is
just for information purposes. So, I just wanted you to be
aware that -- that it will -- will have an effect on -- on
the bottom line, and it also will have an effect on -- on, I
think, probably having the ability to hire part-time people,
because if you -- I mean, if you -- you're offering
part-time people a lower salary than what we're already
paying them, I don't know how -- I don't know how that'll
stack up in the marketplace.
JUDGE TINLEY: What's our total part-time
payroll currently? Aggregate?
MR. TOMLINSON: I don't -- I don't know.
That's -- it would be a shot in the dark, but I would say it
was 40,000 or 50,000. 'Cause the Sheriff's alone is --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That`s going to be low,
'cause mine alone is -- and I only have two -- 33,654.
MR. TOMLINSON: That may be low. Because --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, another $4,000
budgeted.
MR. TOMLINSON: Just on his, yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just on his?
MR. TOMLINSON: Well, 60,000, it would be
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Eight times --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I would probably --
I know one that if that took effect and the salary actually
wasn't raised enough to keep her at the level, you know,
where it is -- she doesn't ever want a raise, okay? Don't
get me wrong, but to cut her -- and I'll be honest; we call
her Miss Mabel. She's a -- you know, Mabel O'Neill used to
be Rosie O'Neill's sister. She's about 80 years old, and is
a part-time commissary, and has more respect out of all the
inmates back there because of the way she does her business.
But if, all of a sudden, she was looking at taking less
salary, I don't believe -- she's one of the best part-time
employees this county's got.
MR. TOMLINSON: So it could potentially cost
us 14 percent.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Now give me the
bad news on this thing.
MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. The -- I separated the
taxes by the M & O fund and Road and Bridge, also included
the non-tax revenues. In the first part of the M & O funds,
first line is what the estimated tax collection is for --
for '04-'5. Now, the tax -- the tax levy for '04 -- '05-'06
for the freeze-adjusted property. So, the tax is six
million, nine eighty-seven fifty. So, the -- the $2 billion
45 million is the tax -- is the taxable value of all the
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138
property left after the tax freeze. Then the tax levy on
the freeze-related property is 2,208,751.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's "freeze-related
JUDGE TINLEY: All the valuations that fall
under these, he's excluded out.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, but what's the
freeze-related versus freeze-adjusted?
MR. TOMLINSON: Well, the freeze-adjusted
property is -- is all the property that's subject to the
full valuation and the full tax rate.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Okay.
MR. TOMLINSON: Okay? So the -- the next
line down under Road and Bridge, -- well, no, let's go down
to the last -- to the bottom where it says the revenue loss
for tax freeze adjustment. Our total taxable values is
$2 billion 734 million. The -- the adjusted taxable value
is $2 billion 45 million, so there's about $700 million in
the tax -- in the freeze-related properties.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: $789 million.
MR. TOMLINSON: So, what the Appraisal
District did was, since this -- the law says that -- that
the valuation or the rate can be anything it wants to for
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the -- for these freeze-related properties. It -- it's
really related to the dollar amount. In other words, the
dollar amount of the tax that somebody paid that's 65 and
over can never change, regardless of the -- whatever rate we
apply to it or whatever the value is. So, the appraisal
district gave me the number of this 2,208,751, and that's
the -- that's the tax levied on this 700 million at our tax
rate to get to whatever the amount was last year, okay? So
the -- so the difference or the increase in revenue or tax
revenue is 500 -- $453,000 for the M & 0 fund. Okay. Now,
then, I went down to -- and then I included the non-tax
revenues, and the 2004-2005 non-tax revenue was 5,294,000.
And for '05-'06, I estimate it to be 5,433,000, so that's a
net increase of 139,993. You total those, and that gives us
a -- that gives us additional revenue over '04-'05 of
592,374.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That takes into account
the freeze?
MR. TOMLINSON: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. Now, then, we go to
Road and Bridge. I did exactly the same thing. The tax
collection for '04-'05 is 780,460, and the levy for '05-'06
is 833,752, based on $2 billion 698 million. That -- that
is the taxable value of lateral road, and there is no tax
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freeze on the lateral road. So, the increase from '04-'05
to '05-'06 is 53,292. Now, then, for non-tax revenue for
Road and Bridge, '04-'05, is estimated to be a million 205,
and for '05-'06, I've estimated it at a million 179. That
is a $25,000 decrease in tax -- in non-tax revenue, so
that -- that needs to be a 27,000 -- almost $28,000 increase
over '04-'05. Now, I can give you a little background on
why the -- why the decrease in non-tax revenue if you want
to hear it. But TexDOT, in their -- in their infinite
wisdom, figured out that they get more money from auto
registration than they do sales tax on automobiles, so over
the next 10 years, our share of auto registration will go
down 10 percent.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Each year, or total?
MR. TOMLINSON: Each year until it's gone.
We will no longer ever get auto registration money.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Until it's gone?
MR. TOMLINSON: Until it's gone.
JUDGE TINLEY: What about the $10 add-on?
MR. TOMLINSON: We'll get that. We always
will get that. So -- but what they've done, they decided
that they will trade us the auto registration money for the
sales tax, and so instead of getting auto registration, we
will, in the future, get the sales tax on the sale of an
auto.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Is that increasing by an
know what that increment is. I haven't seen that. And
the -- the bad part about it for Kerr County, or any rural
county, is that if -- if you -- if you buy -- anyone that
buys an automobile out of their county, when they go to the
dealer, an out-of-county, they have to sign a form that says
that they want the sales tax on that purchase to go to the
county where they live. So, I mean, you drive down the
streets of Kerrville and you see how many vehicles are
purchased outside of Kerr County. It makes you wonder if
we're going to ever regain the amount of auto registration
that we're going to lose.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, this is a bill backed
by Harris County and Bexar County.
MR. TOMLINSON: And it's sort of an unfunded
mandate, again, for -- for rural counties, the way I see it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Especially those who
don't have any car dealers at all. At least we have some
car dealers in this county.
MR. TOMLINSON: Right. So, this trend of --
of decreasing revenue to Road and Bridge from non-tax
revenues is going to go down 10 percent every year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But didn't they add,
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though, a new fee on the registration somewhere? I thought
it was Road and Bridge.
MR. TOMLINSON: But it was -- it was --
JUDGE TINLEY: There's a fee that had to do
with child safety seats or something that we got to adopt by
September 1, which is a -- I don't know, a few dollars.
MR. ODOM: It has to be spent for school
improvement. It can't be spent for anything else.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. But we haven't adopted
it yet.
MR. TOMLINSON: So, this is the bottom line,
the way I see it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the bottom line is
that we're going to get --
JUDGE TINLEY: 600.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- 600,000 in. And if we
didn't do the tax freeze, we would have gotten 750,000
almost.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's about right.
MR. TOMLINSON: The bottom part shows you how
much loss we had.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 140,000.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glad I didn't vote for
it. It's not as bad as when I first saw that item.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I told Tommy when he
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showed it to me earlier, I expected it to be worse.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
MR. TOMLINSON: So I guess -- I guess down
the line, we'll know how much sales tax we're going to get,
and then we'll have to adjust the tax rate for Road and
Bridge accordingly to bring it up enough to --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Keep it whole.
MR. TOMLINSON: -- keep it up. That's all I
got.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Beats a stick in the
eye.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Anything else,
gentlemen?
AUDIENCE: There was a number -- just to --
you said something about there was a number in there for
what the Street Department or the City provided for the
airport. I think some of that number could be decreased,
'cause a lot of that mowing that they're saying they're
doing is supposed to be done by me, and I do it. I mean,
it's -- I don't mean to be calling anybody out here, but --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- it appears to
me that there's way too much budgeted for mowing at the
airport.
AUDIENCE: Well, if this helps, I can give
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you my last five 1099's to show a trend on heavy months --
heavy years from over the past five years. On what --
'cause that's all I do out there, is mow. I mean, I could
show you -- be glad to put it on paper for you, what it's
been over the last five years.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Be interested to know
that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we can get it easier
from you than we would from the City.
AUDIENCE: When you told me it was $48,000, I
almost fell out of my chair, 'cause that's ridiculous.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're suggesting
that's not what you get?
AUDIENCE: Absolutely not.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else for the
workshop? We'll stand adjourned.
(Budget workshop adjourned at 5:01 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 18th day of August,
2005.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
B Y : ___ _ _~/1~t~ ________ _
Kathy B ik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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