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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
E.S.D. Workshop
Wednesday, August 17, 2005
1:30 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
EMERGENCY SERVICES DISTRICTS
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H A."BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4
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On Wednesday, August 17, 2005, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop
meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville,
Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
afternoon, Wednesday, August 17th, 2005, an emergency
service district workshop. It's past 1:30 now.
Commissioner Baldwin, you get the honors.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you so much.
Before we get into the -- the actual presentation, I wanted
to say thanks to Michael Earney, Sheriff's Office, and
Sheriff Hierholzer for loaning us their equipment to make
the presentation on. We appreciate it, guys.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We didn't loan it;
you'll get the bill.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Well, send to
it Ron Derrick. And I've asked -- if you remember, when we
first started talking about the ESD, when Mountain Home put
theirs in place, they had a state agency fellow come out and
make the presentation. Everybody was real, real impressed
with him, so I contacted the agency and visited with them
about that, and they no longer do those things because
they're not -- they don't have the money to go out into the
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field and make presentations any more, he said. But
they're -- the Executive Director told me that there is good
news; that the Legislature authorized the agency to do that
again, to have the ability now to go back out into the field
and make presentations, but they did not give them any money
to do it. So -- so, we're stuck with me and Ron. And so
Ron Derrick, as most of you know, has -- has done a couple
of these, made these presentations with this particular
information, and it's -- I think it's probably going to be
basic information. And what I wanted to see today after --
after this basic information is provided to you, that if we
can -- if there's really some interest at this table, and if
there is some interest, then we can come back at a later
time and do some more actual detailed -- and we will do it
many times, I'm sure. There's a lot of things to this. But
I think it's a worthwhile -- let's see, is the press here?
I don't know how far I can go and talk -- there's one. Let
the record reflect that Commissioner Letz is four minutes
late. (Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And missed your
speech.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, and missed the
whole speech. So, Ron has provided me -- or provided us
with some paper here. I know you guys haven't seen any
paper in the last few days. Pass that around, please,
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Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And what it is, is
this -- the actual slide will be on your left, and it's hard
to read, but you can read it here. And then if you have
questions or comments, there's a place for you to write on
the right side. So, Ron, do you want to come on up? And --
MR. DERRICK: Sure.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- start the
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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Ron, say who you
MR. DERRICK: Sure. My name is Ron Derrick.
I am a citizen of Kerr County, and my background is, I
started with Kerrville Fire Department in 1985. I worked 15
years for the Kerrville Fire Department, put together the
EMS system that you presently have now. I was in charge of
the EMS system under Raymond Holloway from '93 through 2000,
and at that time I took a position in Fredericksburg,
Gillespie County, as their Director of Emergency Services.
This past May, I resigned my position at that and retired.
Not retired as you might think that I'm playing golf every
day. I just chose to retire. I've been in response for 23
years, and I decided to start going more of the
preparedness/emergency management avenue rather than
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carrying a pager, going out to wrecks at 3 o'clock in the
morning.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's a good
MR. DERRICK: 'Cause my family -- my family
changed, 'cause I've got twins now, and they're young. So
-- so, anyway, that's -- that's where I'm at today. We
recently moved back to Kerr County. Always interested in
what goes on. Especially, if an ambulance was to come out
to my house, I want to know who it's coming from. And so I
gave this same presentation to the City Council of
Fredericksburg and the Commissioners of Gillespie County.
City Council was fully behind it. The Commissioners did not
like it one -- one bit, so that was their -- their thing, so
we didn't do it in Gillespie County. So, what I want to
tell you is emergency services districts -- and we'll go
through it, and there are 35 slides, but I'm going to go
through them pretty quick.
The thing about it is, it isn't going to fix
your EMS situation. I want that clear out front, that this
isn't a way to fix your relationship with the City of -- of
Kerrville. And forgive me if I say "City of Fredericksburg"
in there somewhere, 'cause that's what I'm used to saying.
I had to do the same thing when I went over there; this
ain't Kerrville no more. Anyway, this isn't going to fix
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your situation, but what it does do is it gives you an
avenue to raise funds through taxes, through several
different avenues of taxes, to pay for it. And what's nice
about the whole situation is, it doesn't take control away
from y'all, but what it does is it relieves the County
Commissioners of the problem areas that you have with
your -- with your situation with the City. And when you
form an ESD, the City deals, you know, with the ESD
commissioners to contract for fire, for EMS, and for --
we'll talk a little bit about a county fire marshal and what
an ESD can do there also. It's right at the very end; it's
kind of intriguing what you can do there, but it deals with
those people.
And it's going to turn also to the -- we'll
talk a little bit about the ESD's that are already in place;
i.e., Ingram and Mountain Home, and it's going to turn into
-- if you decide this, that the ESD that we're talking about
forming forms around those areas. It doesn't encompass
those areas. Those areas would not be dissolved. Those
commissioners would still be in charge of that area, and --
and this isn't a big brother type of thing. It's not --
it's just you have ESD's in Kerr County, ESD Number 1,
Number 2, and you would possibly develop Kerr County ESD
Number 3. So, I'll go ahead and get into this information
and -- and tell you about it as we go on, and please ask
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You need to hit the
MR. DERRICK: I don't know if y'all want to
see it way back there. I don't know if you can see it.
Basically, emergency services districts, and actually rural
fire districts, actually started back in the '80's. It
wasn't until recently -- and it's through the Texas
Constitution and the 70th Legislature in 1987, they actually
formed rural fire districts. They have since changed that,
and effective September 1, 2003, all rural fire prevention
districts are to be converted to emergency services
districts. So, the biggest change here, besides the name,
was your rural fire districts specifically dealt with fire;
that was it. Emergency services districts now deal with
fire, EMS, and fire prevention. The -- also, what it did
was, under the emergency -- I mean, the rural fire
protection district -- prevention districts, you could only
go up to 3 cents per $100 valuation for taxes, for revenue
source. With the establishment of an emergency services
district, that has now increased up to 10 percent -- I mean
10 cents on every $100 valuation, since they encompassed
more emergency services.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ron, stop there. I've
got a question. You may or may not know the answer to this.
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Ingram was created as a fire district. Fire district.
MR. DERRICK: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do they have the
capability to -- to do the EMS side at this --
MR. DERRICK: Absolutely. They are not
considered -- Ingram is not considered a rural fire district
any more.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So it's --
MR. DERRICK: Emergency services district,
automatically. September 1, they were automatically
converted.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
MR. DERRICK: Thus giving them the
opportunity to go from three up -- all the way somewhere in
between -- all the way up to 10 now. Mountain Home's the
same way.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They could
automatically add emergency ambulance services, whatever?
MR. DERRICK: By vote.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: By vote.
MR. DERRICK: And we'll get into that.
Everything you're going to hear is going to be by vote.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got you.
MR. DERRICK: Of people in that district.
ESD's are political subdivisions established by the local
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voters strictly for the purposes of raising money, and they
contract with the emergency services. So, if you
established an emergency services district in the rest of
Kerr County, that board would contract with the City of
Kerrville for ambulance services, and for your fire services
that y'all now contract. It wouldn't be Kerr County
contracting with the City; it would be the emergency
services district contracting with the City. So, it
wouldn't be Kerr County paying the City; it would be the
emergency services district paying the City.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And they could also
contract with the existing or future volunteer fire
departments.
MR. DERRICK:
contract with a private pro
COMMISSIONER
MR. DERRICK:
they -- they want.
COMMISSIONER
Absolutely. Or they could
eider.
NICHOLSON: Yeah.
They can contract with whoever
LETZ: Can they start -- can
they create --
MR. DERRICK: Or they can create their own,
absolutely. Or they can -- they can create their own.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They could join with
us in creating a county-wide --
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MR. DERRICK: Absolutely.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you could have a
county-wide emergency -- fire and EMS or EMS only, or you
can split it up either way you want.
MR. DERRICK: Right, you could. Absolutely.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You're probably
going to get to this, but we've got two of these, and you're
saying -- and they've already been created by election.
MR. DERRICK: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And you're saying
what we could do is create the rest of the county outside of
the city limits as another one. Is there other options
there? In some part of the county, if Kerrville South or
somebody -- Hunt didn't want in, could they -- could their
vote be taken separately? Or is everybody outside the
Mountain Home and Ingram --
MR. DERRICK: It depends on how you set it
up, Commissioner. It depends on how the petition is
written. We'll get into the petition here in a little bit.
It depends on how that is written. If you are going -- if
the petition that is brought to the County Judge
specifically states the area, and there'll have to be a
legal description of the Hunt area; all the area of Kerr
County except this legal description of the Hunt area. Or,
if you'd like, you can do Hunt, ESD Number 3; Kerrville
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South, ESD Number 4. You can do separate ones. You don't
have to do one all together.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: There's options.
MR. DERRICK: But, yes, you can exclude them,
but you have to do it in the original petition, and it has
to be a legal description of the boundary.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But they would vote as
well?
MR. DERRICK: Yes. Now, if they were
included in on the whole rest of the county, then the whole
rest of the county is voting for their area also.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay.
MR. DERRICK: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Would it necessarily exclude
incorporated areas within the county?
MR. DERRICK: It excludes incorporated areas,
but -- and you'll see here in a little bit, you're going --
and this is -- this is kind of a kicker. You're going to
have to get permission from the City of Kerrville to use
their ETJ. That -- that is --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What if they joined
with us in --
MR. DERRICK: Oh, absolutely.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- at the very
beginning?
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MR. DERRICK: If the City of Kerrville wants
to join also, then you just include the municipality, and
the whole county votes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got you.
MR. DERRICK: And then the tax is levied to
the whole -- to all taxpayers, including city -- city of
Kerrville residents.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. DERRICK: But if they don't want to do
that and they want to be excluded, you have to get written
permission from them for their -- for inclusion of their
ETJ, or if they want to sit on it for six months, it's
automatically approved. If they don't want to do any vote
at all and they've had the petition for six months, it's --
by law, it's automatically approved for you to use their
ETJ. Hold on, let me go back one. Also --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ron, go back to that ETJ.
Assuming the City said no, you can't have the ETJ, and you
said several times they have to have a legal description.
MR. DERRICK: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is a legal description
sufficient to say you're 1 mile beyond the site, or does
that have to go a metes-and-bounds description of the entire
ETJ?
MR. DERRICK: That's a question I'm going to
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have to get answered, Jon. I don't -- I don't know that
specifically, of what legal description to use.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause the cost for the
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. I think in
the case of Mountain Home, it was not metes and bounds. It
was from this road to that place and that kind of a
description.
MR. DERRICK: It may be. I just know it has
to be a legal description. You can't say from Old Man
Johnson's place, we're going to go down the creek to -- you
know.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But if we -- if we
decided that we were going to use the ETJ line by metes and
bounds or what -- however you do it, the ETJ line, and then
we adopt this thing, and then a few years down the road, the
ETJ jumps out there, what happens with that? So you're in a
brand-new ETJ, then.
MR. DERRICK: Right. The City then will
petition the ESD. If they -- if they want that, then they
have to petition the ESD, and there has -- there is a
compensation factor for that also.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's interesting.
MR. DERRICK: I wasn't going to get into all
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the specifics, but in the city limits -- say you take it all
the way up to the Kerrville city limits, and at some time
they annex into your ESD area, they petition the district.
The district, I'm pretty sure, by law has to give it to
them, but there's a compensation package with it from the
City to the ESD.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me ask you all;
currently, the City has not provided any of these services
to the ETJ. Are they --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: They are?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Well, I mean, the
EMS -- they're doing it under our contract with them.
They're not doing it on their own.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But they run fire
protection.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under our $200,000
contract.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay, I got you.
MR. DERRICK: Under the stipulations of the
contract, too.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. DERRICK: I mean, the contract -- correct
me if I'm wrong -- says they'll roll one truck, and that's
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all we do, is roll with one truck. And, of course, they'll
roll the ambulance to that area, but by contract only.
Commissioner Letz is right. Just to let you know, also,
it's ad valorem taxes, but you can also use sales tax.
Buster and I talked about this, that if you so desire -- or
a combination of both of them. If you so desired, "Hey,
let's let some of the visitors pay for this stuff," you can.
Go ahead, Buster.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill's got a report on
that.
MR. DERRICK: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That presupposes that
the sales tax is not maxed out.
MR. DERRICK: Absolutely. Absolutely. You
have a max. You still can't go above that max.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The City of Kerrville
takes 6 plus 2, and they're already there, so you can't land
another tax on top of that.
MR. DERRICK: So you can't lay a tax inside
the city. I don't know where the County is.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: County may be
different.
MR. DERRICK: Yeah, right. You're still --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We have half a point.
MR. DERRICK: -- legally bound to your
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maximums. That's a real good point. And we've talked about
a lot of this already. On the -- on the ESD's, for counties
less than 2.4 million people, which this falls under, of
course, it's up to 10 cents per $100 evaluation. You'll
find that throughout the -- there's 137 ESD's in the state
right now. You'll find -- like, the ESD's over in Travis
County, they have 14 ESD's in Travis County; every one of
them are maxed out. And you'll see, boy, they got some nice
equipment and things over there, but, boy, the people are
really paying high dollar. You'll see the majority -- the
average in the state is running right at 4.6, something like
that, cents. A lot of them are 2 and 3, a lot of them are 6
and 7, and then some of them go for the max. What they say
you need to do -- and also, as far as the sales tax is
concerned, you have the ability to use up to one-half cent
sales tax to fund the ESD, as long as the local tax isn't
capped out.
You'll find the way they say you're supposed
to do this is you're -- you're supposed to find out how much
money you're really going to need to run the services you
have, how much the EMS is going to cost you in this area, in
the area we're talking about, and how much the fire is going
to cost you in that area, and any other administrative
things that you're going to pay for, and then apply that to
your -- your taxing property, your property that's taxed.
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And then see where you need to go as far as the money is
concerned. That's designed, of course, to protect life
through the provision of emergency rescue and ambulance
services and fire services.
Basically, what happens is there's a
petition. Before a district located wholly in one county
may be created, the County Judge of that county must receive
a petition of 100 qualified voters in that area that you're
taking in as an ESD. The petition must contain an agreement
from two petitioners that obligates them to 150 bucks for
formation of the district, including the cost of notices,
election costs and things like that. So, basically, the way
it gets started is a petition by 100 voters in that area,
and $150. That comes to the County Judge. Before a
district can be created that contains territory in a
municipality's limits or extraterritorial jurisdiction, a
written request to be included in the district must be
presented to the municipality's governing body after the
petition is filed. So, in other words, you have to file the
petition with the City if you want to use their ETJ. If the
governing body refuses or fails to act on the petition
within six months after the date which a petition submitted
is received, the governing body's refusal or failure to act
constitutes automatic consent for the territory.
If the petition is in proper form, the County
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Judge receives the petition. At the next regular or special
session of the Commissioners Court after the petition is
filed with the County Clerk, the Commissioners Court shall
set a place, date, and time for a public hearing. I tried
to see how many public hearings you got to have; did not see
anything about multiple. So, time and place is set for the
hearing. The Commissioners Court shall consider the
petition. People get to say their piece, just as they
normally would. The Commissioners Court has exclusive
jurisdiction to determine each issue relating to the
creation of the district, including any matters negotiated
with a consenting municipality, being the City of Kerrville.
If everything's in order, Commissioners Court like it, and
it shows that it will promote the public safety, welfare,
health, and convenience of persons residing in the proposed
district, the Commissioners Court shall grant the petition,
fix the district boundaries, and impose any conditions
negotiated under this section. What has to be done
originally is, in the original petition, you're going to
have -- these people have to figure out how -- what the tax
rate is going to be also, 'cause the tax rate has to be
known before the vote. The original tax rate.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So they've got --
under the act, they have the authority to go up to
10 percent. Are you saying that they -- if they want five
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cents, that the original petition says we -- we don't want
any more than five cents?
MR. DERRICK: No, at that time. You're not
saying we're not ever going to go to 10. At the time of the
original petition, you have to state what the original or
first tax rate's going to be.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I got you.
MR. DERRICK: And then you go from there.
And the only way it can be changed after that is by another
vote.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I know what I'm
voting on now, but --
MR. DERRICK: Absolutely. But that's not
saying that I can't come back later on, and I'm voting on
five, and I'm going to come back two years from now and say,
"Guys, it's not enough money; I'm going to raise to it
eight."
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's an election
again.
MR. DERRICK: It's an election again, by
majority. And it's not two-thirds or anything like that;
it's strictly majority. The election shall be held on the
first authorized unform election date. I think there's,
what, four or five of those during the year?
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two.
MR. DERRICK: Just two?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Cut down to two, I
think.
MR. DERRICK: Okay. One of those dates is
when -- when the -- only when the election can take place.
So, if y'all decide to do this in the next two months,
November's is pretty -- cutting it pretty close. What is
your next one, May? November or May.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: March.
MR. DERRICK: March? Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's a primary one,
though.
MR. DERRICK: District may not include
territory in municipality -- municipality's limits or
extraterritorial jurisdiction unless the majority of the
voters residing in that territory who voted in the election
vote in favor. It's kind of a little caveat to the whole
thing. If you're using the city's ET J, you still have to
have a majority vote of those people within that area for it
to go. So, not only the whole district has to go, but for
you to use the ETJ, there has to be at least 50 percent of
the people -- voters in that area.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You have to be --
can be it be either/or? If you have an election, and say
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that the municipality and ETJ's don't vote for it in a
majority, but all the rest vote in majority.
MR. DERRICK: You still have an ESD, but not
containing your ETJ.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But you don't start
over again?
MR. DERRICK: No, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, in effect, you
have to get the City's permission for the ETJ before you can
conduct a vote; is that correct?
MR. DERRICK: Yes. Yes, that is part of the
petition process, is you have to have permission from them
to -- to use their ETJ.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- wait, go back to
that. But there is no current means to identify people that
live in the ETJ. You're saying we would have to develop a
way for Paula --
MR. DERRICK:
COMMISSIONER
MR. DERRICK:
COMMISSIONER
which residents live in the
MR. DERRICK:
that can pinpoint where the
in there?
I don't -- where's Paula?
LETZ: -- to determine --
Looking back there. You moved.
LETZ: -- to determine what --
ETJ?
Do you have a computer program
ETJ is and tell what voters are
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(Ms. Rector shook her head negatively.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's 1 mile beyond the
city limits. But --
MR. DERRICK: I'm sure there would have to be
some appropriate means of determining that. Whether -- I
don't know if that's doing it by hand, doing -- buying a
computer program that does that, or what-have-you.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: About the only thing
I could think of off the top of my head is -- think about
this with me, Paula -- would be to outline the 1-mile area
and then -- and then overlay that into census blocks and see
what you get that way.
MS. RECTOR: Possibly.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have maps that show
the city boundaries, and then a map -- and then 1 mile out,
another line.
MS. RECTOR: There's no ETJ boundary
that's --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I don't know if
it's defined.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's just a line,
imaginary line.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's pretty general. I
mean --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's 1 mile
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everywhere around the city.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Take the city and just go
a mile around it. You can track it. But trying to figure
out where a house is --
MR. DERRICK: It's not a perfect circle. I
mean, it looks like the city limits --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It follows the city
limits.
MR. DERRICK: -- onlhy bigger.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could be ziggy-zaggy
all over the place.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because of the way the
city has grown, it could go out towards the rest area,
Comanche Trace. You could get these real big oblong things
that intersect each other.
MS. RECTOR: The appraisal district mapping
system may be able to define --
MR. DERRICK: Your Appraisal District may be
able to help you with that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Somebody has to deal
with that somewhere.
MR. DERRICK: Yes. It has to be done by -- I
bet she's right. I bet your Appraisal District has computer
software that does that. And if the majority of those
voting at the election vote against creation of the
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district, Commissioners Court may not order another election
year from the time the votes were canvassed.
I just want to go through real quick about
what this board can and can't do. The district powers. Of
course, it's a political subdivision of the state. The
functions of the district are to provide emergency services,
and they may -- and you can read them there. They can
purchase, lease, manage, sell, buy, enter, and perform
necessary contracts, appoint. They can have employees, sue
or be sued, impose and collect taxes as prescribed. They
can receive donations, lease, own, maintain, operate, and
provide emergency services vehicles -- Jon, that's what you
were talking about there. Construct, lease, maintain real
estate, contract with other entities, including other
districts or municipalities, to make emergency services
facilities and emergency services available to the district.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it is conceivable
that if it goes by precinct, 'cause it's got more
examples -- probably there are several volunteer fire
departments, one in Bandera County, one in Kendall County,
that cover a lot or a little, depending on which one, of
area in Kerr County. So the ESD could contract with each of
those fire departments --
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MR. DERRICK: They will --
MR. DERRICK: They could. Yes, they could.
What will have to happen is an official fire district map,
and I don't know if y'all have that or not, or it's just,
"Oh, Comfort says they go to Lane Valley and Center Point
comes that way. It's just an understanding." Well, there's
going to have to be a map that shows that. And then that --
that legal boundary will be done up into a contract, and the
ESD will contract with the Comfort Volunteer Fire Department
to cover these areas in Kerr County. They'll have to
contract with Center Point to cover these areas in Kerr
County.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the -- and then for
that, they'll negotiate a
MR. DERRICK: A sum of money, that's right.
What also I've seen with the -- what a lot of your ESD's
will do is they'll develop emergency funds, where -- or
capital equipment funds, where you can say, okay, one time a
year, kind of like your budget, you can apply to the
district for a new fire truck or for some type of capital
item, something that's over a set amount of money, whatever
that may be. And then they can -- they can approve or
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disapprove. Say Center Point comes to the district and
says, "We need a new brush truck. We have got to have a new
brush truck, and this is why," tah-dah, tah-dah, tah-dah,
and the district can vote; say okay. Either, yeah, we'll
pay for it now, or we'll -- we'll develop an account; we'll
get half of the money this year, half next year or
what-have-you, and we'll buy it for you next year. However
they want to do it.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The two ESD's in the
western part of the county have an arm's-length relationship
with the two fire departments that they fund, and it's just
like that. Fire department comes and says, We're going to
need a new truck. They decide whether or not they're going
to fund all or part of it. But the ESD doesn't have any
voice in the operation or management or policies of the fire
department.
MR. DERRICK: That's right. That's right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a beautiful
thing.
MR. DERRICK: It's not going to change your
fire departments.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No.
MR. DERRICK: The one thing that --
operation-wise, they still are in charge of -- it's not
taking any control away from them. The one thing that it
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does take away from them is having to go out there and
having these barbecues. Having to have these barbecues,
dances, bake sales, whatever, just to buy fuel. Just to buy
a tire to put on a flat tire that went down, and busting
their behinds trying to get this -- this funding just to
operate. And -- and it does help them out a whole lot in
that area. Doesn't mean that Center Point can't still have
their --	I'm	sure	they'll	want --	probably	want to.	That's
just an	annul	deal	to have	their	barbecue	and dance,	get
after it. Hunt could; anybody could. It doesn't preclude
that. It doesn't preclude them from getting donations,
either. The donations that are given don't have to come to
the ESD's. I can still give a check to the Hunt Volunteer
Fire Department or the Center Point Volunteer Fire
Department or what-have-you. It does not preclude that.
That can still happen. So, if somebody, especially a
company, wants to give money or what-have-you, or an
individual wants to give money, that's still good. Does not
change any of that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the -- just a step
further, they could contract -- like, in the Comfort area,
they can contract with the Comfort Volunteer Fire Department
for the fire, and they can contract with Kendall County EMS
to provide EMS services.
MR. DERRICK: If they want a contract, yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Smarty-pants.
MR. DERRICK: They can -- again, they can
borrow money -- here's the last few. Contract with other
entities, borrow money, and perform any acts necessary to
carry out the intent of the chapter. In other words, giving
the citizens of Kerr County the necessary fire and emergency
medical protection that -- that they need.
The board. Commissioners Court of the county
in which a single-county district is located shall appoint a
five-member board. To serve as a member of the board, you
have to be these -- these things; 18, resident citizen of
the state, qualified voter within that area, or the owner of
land in that area. Commissioners serve two-year terms.
After the votes are canvassed and the Commissioners Court
enters into the order creating the district, the
Commissioners Court shall appoint the initial emergency
services commissioners to serve until January 1 of the year
following the district elections. Say y'all do this in
March -- just hypothetically, you do this in March. You
will appoint the five Commissioners from March until
January 1, and January 1, the Court shall designate three of
those emergency services commissioners to serve a two-year
term and two of those emergency services commissioners to
serve a one-year term. They shall hold regular monthly
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meetings, keep the minutes, give reports, give a written
report not later than February 1 to the Commissioners Court
regarding the district's administration.
What I kept reading in here, and I'm sure
y'all have noticed already, y'all's titles are mentioned in
here a lot. So you're not -- even though you're allowing
somebody else to contract with the City for these services,
you'll still have lots of say-so built -- built into here.
The board may -- I thought this one was a neat one. I
didn't -- I didn't know this, to tell you the truth, until I
was studying up on it the other day. The board may adopt a
fire code, including fines for any violations, that -- that
does not conflict with a fire code adopted by any county
that also contains within its boundaries any portion of the
land contained in the district, and may require inspections
in the district relating to the causes and prevention of
fires and medical emergencies. Do y'all have a fire code
that people have to abide by in the county right now?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No.
MR. DERRICK: You can when this gets into
place, if it's so desired.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's the scary
part.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I agree. Go to
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MR. DERRICK: It doesn't have to be. It just
says the board may adopt. It's not -- not a mandatory
thing.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That may be related to
a fire marshal, though.
MR. DERRICK: It's coming up. Coming up.
They can do that, too. The board may commission -- here it
is -- commission a peace officer or employ a person who
holds a permanent peace officer license issued under this
section of the Occupations Code to inspect for fire hazards
any structure, appurtenance, fixture, or other real property
located in the district. The board may adopt procedures and
order the owner or occupant of the property that fails an
inspection to correct a hazardous situation.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sounds like Rusty to
me.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't think so. I
will say I think what -- looking at some of our hazards out
in the county, this county is way behind, and probably
should have a fire marshal and a fire code.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just because of the
multi --
MR. DERRICK: And it doesn't have to be --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I kind of like being
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behind the curve on that one. If we hired a fire marshal,
an assistant and a clerk and
bring some codes in and say,
inspect all your restaurants
open." You're just getting
MR. DERRICK:
if do you an ESD, you -- you
ESD does.
three vehicles, and then he'd
"I want to go out here and
and make sure the back door's
into a huge bureaucracy.
The thing about it is, though,
don't hire these people. The
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't want them
hiring them. That's just my opinion.
MR. DERRICK: Yeah. But, I mean, it's just a
possibility. It's not a mandatory thing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it brings up a point.
Ron, can you -- can the election limit some of these things?
Or once you -- you either get it, and then it's up to the
board? I mean, could the election, say, delete the
provision for the ESD creating the fire marshal?
MR. DERRICK: The original petitions that I
have seen, Jon, do not limit that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what the law --
MR. DERRICK: Does not limit what the ESD can
do. I think the powers of the board of the ESD are set by
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All these codes right
here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you're probably
right.
MR. DERRICK: Yes.. Basically, the
officers -- there's five of them; president, vice president,
secretary, treasurer, assistant treasurer, to perform the
duties. The office of secretary/treasurer may be combined.
The treasurer must execute and file with the County Clerk a
bond conditioned on the faithful execution of the
treasurer's duties.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Before we go on --
MR. DERRICK: Go ahead.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- is there -- are all of
-- is the ESD subject to open meetings? Open records?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes.
MR. DERRICK: Yes, they are a political
subdivision. And they're also going to be open here in a
minute -- and I'm glad Tommy's in here -- to audit by the
County Auditor. I'm sure Tommy loves to hear that. More
work.
MR. TOMLINSON: I already do two.
MR. DERRICK: Yeah, that's true. You'll have
to do the rest of them. The commissioners can be
compensated if necessary. They can receive a comp --
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compensation of not more than $50 a day on a day they
$3,000 a year. They can be reimbursed for any reasonable
and necessary expenses. May get a per diem. The exception
to receiving compensation, they may get $50 a day when they
actually perform their duties instead of anything else. The
district can also charge fees if they want to. And -- and
some examples of this is reasonable fees for emergency
services. If the -- if they have a fire marshal or -- or
they're dealing with fire alarms and fire codes and things
like that, false alarms, they can actually set up a fee for
fire departments responding to false alarms. I think the
city fire department here has a -- has an ordinance in
place -- I think it says after five or something like that.
Don't -- don't take that for gospel, but I think it's after
five. So, if Sid Peterson's alarm goes off more than five
times and it's not -- and it is deemed a false alarm, they
start charging. They have the possibility of doing this, or
for fire code inspections or -- or any of those things
associated with the fire marshal. They have a limitation.
Can't be in excess of funds on-hand and anticipated for the
next year.
This tells a little bit about what we were
talking about. How do you increase the tax rate? If the
board decides to increase the tax rate, it has to be done --
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authorized at an election. Increase or decrease in the tax
can be taken place. If the board -- board decides to
increase the tax rate in the district to any rate at or
below the rate allowed by this subchapter, blab-blab-blab,
the board must order an election and authorize an election
to authorize the increase. So, everything has to be done by
election. If you're going to increase, if you're going to
decrease, if you're going to form the ESD, you got to have
an election. If you're going to eliminate an ESD, you have
to have an election. First uniform election date is when it
will be held. If a majority of the votes cast in the
election favor the increase, the tax rate for the district
is increased to the rate authorized by the election.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question.
MR. DERRICK: Yes, sir?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Effectively, then,
what's happening when they set a tax rate is they're setting
a maximum. They may not be setting the rate they need at
that time, but they may be setting a nickel, and if they
only needed 2 and a half cents, they're operating on 2 and a
half cents.
MR. DERRICK: They can do that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And they have the
ability to go to the nickel.
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MR. DERRICK: Yes, they do.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Without an election.
MR. DERRICK: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When they hit a
nickel, there's --
MR. DERRICK: They have to do that by
election, right. When you set a tax rate, you can work
anywhere underneath that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. DERRICK: If you set a 5-cent tax rate,
that doesn't mean you have to collect all that, especially
if you're only going to use 2 percent of it. And, you know,
you don't want to be building up this huge nest egg and
charging the taxpayers. So, yes, when you set a tax rate,
you can work anywhere underneath that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. DERRICK: But to raise that cap, you have
to have an election.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Go back to the
people.
MR. DERRICK: Right.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think that's what
Mountain Home did, if I remember right. They started out at
maybe a nickel, and -- but only --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who are you talking
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about?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- used three cents
or two -- three? Yeah.
MR. DERRICK: What that does, it gives the
board every year a little latitude to work with, instead of
always having to have an election.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No.
MR. DERRICK: You know, you set your
original -- with your original petition, you set a max.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. DERRICK: Five cents, and then your board
can work within that zero to five without having an
election. But if they ever need more, you're going to have
to have an election to raise that cap up. And that's -- the
majority of the time, that's why your ESD's over in -- in
Travis County, they all just said, well, the heck with it;
we're going to put our cap at 10 and let our ESD's work
within that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Come to think of it,
Commissioner Baldwin, I think they started -- they got
authorization for 10, and they just started with it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know. Paula,
do you know?
MS. RECTOR: I was thinking -- 'cause you and
I were in that together, and I was thinking that they went
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with the 10 cents.
MR. DERRICK: Cap?
MS. RECTOR: Yeah, the 10-cent cap.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Started off
collecting three.
MS. RECTOR: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And so you think that
you collect three cents?
MS. RECTOR: I think that's what they're --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think that's
right.
MR.
MS.
COM
this is a question
at 10, how do you
MS.
DERRICK:
RECTOR:
~ISSIONER
for late
-- how do
RECTOR:
Ingram or Mountain Home?
Mountain Home.
BALDWIN: How do you -- I know
r on, really, but if you set it
you just collect three?
Because that's what they
adopted. That's
MS. PIEPER: They adopted up to 10.
MS. RECTOR: -- three cents to operate on for
that year, even though they can go up to 10 if they choose.
They only need three cents to operate.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, at a board
meeting --
MR. DERRICK: Because they are -- they do the
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exact same thing as y'all do every year. Each department is
going to submit a budget, and they're going to get them in,
approve and disapprove things like that. And then they say,
"Okay, we're going to need so much money." Well, to get so
much money, we need 3 percent, so we're going to vote to
adopt 3 percent. If it's 4 percent, they vote to adopt
4 percent. If that money they need is over their cap, then
they have to have an election to raise the cap.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, the 3 percent,
and then next year they decide, "Oops that wasn't quite
enough," or more budgets come in that are a little bit
higher. Then they -- by board vote, they can raise it from
3 to 5.
MR. DERRICK: Long as it's not over the cap.
That's why you see a lot of these people just go ahead and
run their original petition up to 10, and then it allows the
board that latitude of zero to 10. Sales tax, again, it's
if you have room. The district may impose the tax at a rate
from one-eighth of 1 percent to 2 percent, in increments of
one-eighth of 1 percent. May be used for any purpose, as --
the same as ad valorem taxes. They have to have an
election. A district may not authorize bonds and notes
secured in whole or in part by taxes unless a majority of
the district's qualified voters who vote at an election
ordered for that purpose approve the issuance of bonds or
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notes. So, the bonds -- if you're going to go out for bonds
or notes, you have to do it with an election of the people
in that area.
JUDGE TINLEY: That -- that authorization
could be submitted as a separate proposition at the initial
election, could it not?
MR. DERRICK: I guess you've lost me here,
now, Judge.
JUDGE TINLEY: The initial election on the
formation of the
MR. DERRICK: The original petition?
JUDGE TINLEY: -- emergency services
districts. Could you submit a separate proposition at that
time to issue bonds or notes?
MR. DERRICK: Golly, I would think that you
could. And then if the formation of the ESD fails, that --
that automatically fails.
JUDGE TINLEY: True.
MR. DERRICK: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: The formation of the ESD may
pass, but the authority to issue bonds or notes might fail.
MR. DERRICK: Right. Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You could do that not
knowing what the bonds are going to go for -- proceeds are
going to be used for?
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MR. DERRICK: I think you'd have to justify
what the bonds would be used for, whether it's -- we're
going to build each volunteer fire department a new
addition, we're going to buy each of them a new fire truck,
or -- I would think you'd have to justify what those bonds
were for.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not just a blanket
authority.
MR. DERRICK: Right. Wouldn't that be nice?
Audit. As Tommy was saying, he already does it for two of
them, but the audit shall be performed, and the report shall
be prepared at the expense of the district, but it's done by
the County Auditor. With the approval of the Commissioners
Court, Auditor shall adopt rules relating to the format of
the audit and the report. I'm sure he already does that.
He already has a format. District shall pay all costs
incurred by the County Auditor to perform an audit and issue
the report required by this section, unless otherwise
ordered by the Commissioners Court. Do they pay anything
for the audits now?
MR. TOMLINSON: No.
MR. DERRICK: Okay. You choose not to;
that's fine.
MR. TOMLINSON: My fee is really high.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ron, one thing. Maybe
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you went over it and I just missed it. The original
appointment of commissioners -- ESD commissioners, we do.
Do we do all -- every year; then we do -- we appoint the
other -- the permanent ones as well?
MR. DERRICK: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it's not -- the
people -- the commissioners are never elected; they're
always appointed by the Court?
MR. DERRICK: The first year, they're only
interim until January 1. Then at January 1, you
determine --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: One-year and two-year
terms.
MR. DERRICK: -- one year and two years.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: After one year, we
appoint those -- either the same people or new people, but
it's up to the Commissioners Court to --
MR. DERRICK: Yeah, and there's -- and
there's -- of course, there's a whole lot more to this, but
Buster wanted me to keep it very brief. And one of the
things that -- there's guidelines for the County
Commissioners to use for board appointments, what --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure.
MR. DERRICK: -- kind of people should be on
there. Of course, you should have one financial guy, banker
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or accountant or something like that. At least two people
in there that are -- are familiar with the way volunteer
fire departments operate. There's certain guidelines that
they -- they ask you to follow.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there authority to
MR. DERRICK: No. By state law, it's five.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there any flexibility
or is there any mechanism so that -- say we went with a
county-wide, including the City of Kerrville; that the --
that the City of Kerrville could say they get two slots and
we get --
MR. DERRICK: This is what the city of
Fredericksburg was proposing to Gillespie County. There's a
board of five people. They were going to say let's have two
county -- 'cause they didn't want to give up that control --
two county commissioners, two city council members, and then
a member at large; that was the president.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That both agree upon?
MR. DERRICK: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And, so,
that's how they were going to have this ESD, but still have
control. 'Cause you get to -- you get to approve a lot of
things, but the ESD still gets to operate within the
parameters of the law, and you're not going to have a say-so
about it.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I'll leave it at
that.
MR. DERRICK: Any other questions?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. Very
informative.
JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We went to hear the
expert from Austin, and he was excellent.
MS. RECTOR: I still have the book.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And your
presentation was equally as good.
MS. RECTOR: Yes, it was.
MR. DERRICK: Appreciate it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, don't start that
nonsense; he'll be back tomorrow. Thank you, Ron.
JUDGE TINLEY: What time will you be back
tomorrow?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. As we go
along -- we'll talk about it as we go along through
Commissioners Court.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: This question is really
more for Paula. If we excluded the city of Kerrville, do
you have any kind of a ballpark as to what one cent -- well,
if we excluded the current ESD's and city of Kerrville, what
does one cent raise?
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MS. RECTOR: Off the top of my head?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure.
MS. RECTOR: I don't know, Jonathan.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That would be an
interesting number to know as to dollars, what we're looking
at. Just a --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to ask the
question a different way. What's available to us in the
county, sales tax?
MS. RECTOR: Well, we already have a
half-cent sales tax in place to offset property taxes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, 6 percent goes to
the state.
MR. TOMLINSON: We're maxed out.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're maxed out in
the county?
MR. TOMLINSON: I don't think -- doesn't
matter. It's totally --
MS. RECTOR: Total.
MR. TOMLINSON: -- within the county.
MS. RECTOR: No, the county can add one.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think so, too.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We just were told that we
could -- as I understand it, that there is -- there's not a
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whole lot of sales going on in the county. We may raise it
to get -- and not get much money. I was under the
impression that we could -- in the other part of the county,
we could add up to what the city's maxed out at.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: City's at eight.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: City's at eight. We can
go to eight with some other things, economic improvement and
other things in unincorporated areas.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's my
understanding.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did y'all learn this
in Austin?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That would be
something new.
MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. I -- I wasn't aware of
it, but I thought it was the max.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. But -- well, you
get into, though, there's very few sales going on in the
county.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's maxed in town;
it's six plus two in town. But there's not any plus-two on
the county that I'm aware of.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're at .75, because
it's -- 7.75 is --
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, there's a half a
cent available out there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: One and a quarter.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or six and
three-quarters.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're at six and
three-quarters right now.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Six and
three-quarters.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: There's an idea
floating around about another ESD and an idea floating
around about a library district, and when I take off my
commissioner hat and put on my taxpayer hat, what I see is
that these various increasing numbers of taxing entities
drive my taxes up. If this ESD starts paying for some costs
we've been paying for, and library district starts paying
some costs, my taxes aren't going to go down; they go up.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only way it makes any
sense, Commissioner, to the taxpaying public is if there
were a pledge out of the taxing entities that, for example,
if we didn't -- if we didn't have to fund the library out of
this budget, we'd back this out of our tax rate. If we
didn't have to fund EMS out of this budget, we'd back that
out of the tax rate.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We could do that.
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Of course, taxpayers and politicians have short memories,
and that might not be good three years later.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, long-term,
you're right. But I think what it does do, if people truly
want the library, it gives them a way to pay for it, because
it starts setting priorities by the taxpayers, letting them
set the priorities. If this is more -- if there's -- you
know, and I think you're right.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: There's some good to
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it, but they also will never go away.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Never go away, and taxes
will go up.
JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on the emergency
services district?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. Where'd Michael
go? Ron, do you want to shut this thing down?
MR. DERRICK: Sure. Oh, I need my --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thanks again, Ron.
MR. DERRICK: You bet.
JUDGE TINLEY: If there's nothing further on
the emergency services district, we'll go ahead and recess
until 3 o'clock, at which time we'll go into the next
session of our posted agenda. So, we'll be in recess till
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(Recess taken from 2:25 p.m. to 3:00 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS I
COUNTY OF KERR
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 5th day of December,
2005.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
BY: _ '~ ~~-------- ----
Kat-~ hy~anik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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