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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Special Session
(Reconvened from Monday, June 13, 2005)
and
COMMISSIONERS COURT JAIL/JUVENILE DETENTION WORKSHOP
Tuesday, June 13, 2005
1:30 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4
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I N D E X
June 14, 2005
--- Commissioners Court Workshop
Consider/discuss Jail, Detention & related issues
1.17 Approve placement contracts with E1 Paso County
and Cameron County, authorize County Judge to sign
(Reconvened from June 13, 2005 meeting)
--- Adjourned
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On Tuesday, June 14, 2005, at 1:30 p.m., the regular June
13, 2005 meeting the Kerr County Commissioners Court was
reconvened, and a workshop was also held in the Commissioners'
Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and the
following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me reconvene the
Commissioners Court which was posted and originally convened
on Monday, June 13th, 2005, at 9 a.m., and recessed
yesterday afternoon at approximately 3:40, and I'm going to
guesstimate thereabouts. We will reconvene that meeting.
In addition, I will call to order the Commissioners Court
workshop scheduled for this date, Tuesday, June 14th, 2005,
at 1:30 p.m. It's a bit past that now, so we've got both of
those open, and I think the subject du jour is the
consideration and discussion of jail and detention and
related issues.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What is the topic
left open on the recessed --
JUDGE TINLEY: The -- well, actually, we can
go back to anything if we want to, but I think the principal
ones that we left it open for had to do with the El Paso,
and Cameron County, I believe, was the other one -- yes --
pla~~ement contract for Juvenile Detention Facility. I
believe that was the pertinent one that was left open.
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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: EMS contract left
open?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All of them are.
JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I think any subject that
was on the Monday, June 13th agenda is open, 'cause we
recessed to reconvene at 1:30 today, and that's the mode
that we're in right now.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have to talk to
me, though; you can't talk to the other --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I see you over
there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glad y'all got that all
straightened out.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We got it straight,
Commissioner Letz.
JUDGE TINLEY: Jail and detention issues. I
believe the Sheriff has a report that he's prepared for us.
Do you want to lead off, Sheriff, and tell us about your
work? Incidentally, I want to thank you for all of your
effort on this report. It was some very interesting
reading, and looks as though you've spent a little time on
it. The first question to you is, did Clay do this, or did
you do it?
(Mr. Barton pointed at the Sheriff.)
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good
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question, Judge.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's the right
answer.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. So far, we're batting a
thousand. We'll let you get on, Sheriff.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I know the Sheriff;
it's his language.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The problem was, I let
Clay review it, and it came back with so many red marks on
it that Nancy and I both ran him out of the office. So, you
know, I gave you an introduction on how long we've been in
the current facility. I think the report -- I hope -- is
pretty well self-explanatory, and I can more or less field
questions. I do feel that we are definitely in a situation
that is going to do nothing but get worse unless we address
it in some way, shape, or form. The first time that I
believe I'd mentioned jail overcrowding, or it was mentioned
in writing to the Court, was during our five-year strategic
plan that each Commissioner at that time had appointed a
member to, and we did it. And in that study -- in that plan
it said that we were at -- reaching maximum capacity at that
time, which the report was actually issued May of 2002. So,
we've had some notice; it's just grown a little bit
stronger.
And when I visited with Mr. Woods -- Brandon
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Woods, who is the Director of Jail Operations for the State
Jail Commission, the other day, he said -- I commented to
him, "Well, at least, you know, we've got a good
relationship with the Court, and I think everybody's on top
of it this time, and I think we're -- we won't be behind the
curve and we're not waiting too late." And his response to
me was, "I think you're already waiting too long." And that
kind of opened my eyes even a little bit more than what I
had.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who was this?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Brandon Woods. He is
the Director of Jail Operations for the State Commission on
Jail Standards. He came out; we toured our current facility
and we toured the current juvenile -- new building facility
the other day, last week, which is all incorporated in this.
The tabs in here, the second tab -- or the first tab right
behind it is a Facility Needs Analysis that I requested from
the State Jail Commission to give us some ideas of how they
felt our jail was doing and our population and that. You'll
see that their population scales on it are a little bit
lower than what I have shown y'all, what I have given you in
population reports. Their analysis went through April.
They only went to May 1, and May was a very high month for
us, in my opinion. This was an average, and when you look
through those pages, you can see they even have an
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introduction to it which tells you what's on which page.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I really don't care
what they think. I want to know -- we had talked briefly
recently about the possibility of you taking over part of
the juvenile facility and initiating a work release-type
program. Where are -- where is that in your thinking?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I still believe very
strongly in the work program. I think it could be extremely
beneficial to this county in a number of ways, mainly
manhours. I know Jonathan had talked about even mowing the
airport, which is -- the County pays a lot. This
Legislature has expanded the ability to use inmate labor in
some other areas, like 501(c)(3) nonprofit organizations, as
long as the Commissioners Court finds that that certain
organization does provide a public service to the county,
and then we can use inmate labor for that. We can also use
them at most of the cemeteries now, with the way a lot of
that is. The problem in doing it out at that facility, we
do have currently -- and I printed my reports today --
probably about 90 -- between 80 and 90 inmates that are
classified as minimum risk, minimum security inmates.
Now, there's a lot of different factors, and
there's a tab in that book that tells you what the factors
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are that	have to	be used	in --	in	how	you	classify the
inmates	and what	can be	used.	I	would	say	about half of
okay? The other ones are not people I would want to -- to
necessarily use, even though their classification fits. So,
I think we could come up with a work force of about 40
inmates pretty easy, 40 or 98 inmates. It would take a
little bit of additional staff on 8:00 to 5:00 Monday
through Friday, as far as being guards for those staff. It
does not have to be a deputy sheriff; it can be a jailer
that is trained in that. It's just more of a personality
deal, working people right. The jails that I've talked to,
Smith County, Wilson County, said in working that large a
crew -- Smith County does work that large of a crew, and
they said about once a year they will have two or three walk
off; said there's no way you're going to get around it.
That's why it's very important -- and there's
even -- what Smith County uses is kind of an application,
you might call it. There's an interview that they go
through with the inmate before they put him in that work
crew. The difference with that is -- is they are at a
definite minimum classification. A lot of them are drug
offenses or something like that, and the Jail Commission
does not consider that an escape, which could hurt you; they
consider that a walk-away, and you will have that happen.
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But I think it could be an extremely beneficial program.
Running it out of the juvenile -- the new building of the
juvenile facility, for the other reasons that I've stated,
it out of our current facility, I think, a lot better. It's
just going to be the staffing and the ability.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What I'd like to do
is to -- is to jump to -- based on Rusty's research, jump to
his findings and work backwards, and let me explain what I
-- what I've got in mind. If you take the best economic
case, we'd do two things. One, we'd close the old juvenile
detention facility and use the new 24-bed facility for
preadjudicated only, and that would save a million dollars a
year from -- or even Rusty from what's going to happen if we
keep what we're doing now. Second thing is, we'd build a
144-bed addition, and that would cost somewhere around
1.2 million a year, and for some period of time we would be
able to recoup essentially all that cost by housing out --
out-of-county prisoners. And we've learned from experience
that doesn't -- that that doesn't go on forever. Doesn't
last forever, but those are your two best cases, doing those
two.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In my personal opinion,
yes, but the staffing part of that, as far as the adult
facility, as I explained to you, Commissioner, would be in
inr_rements. I would not recommend building a 144-bed
addition to our current jail and staffing it for 144 beds
immediately.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we did those two
things, if we could drop that 149-bed facility in there
tomorrow, our cost for the next fiscal year would not --
would not go up. We'd save a million at the juvenile
facility; we'd spend a million at the adult facility.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that doesn't -- that
million in the adult doesn't -- does that cover debt?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's the operating
budget. And Ber_ky may want to -- to speak to that a little
bit more, because by what I saw and what was furnished to me
by the Judge and that, her -- her operating budget projected
for that facility right now is 2.6 million, is what was
turned in for Commissioners Court consideration. Of that,
the Judge and I --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For which facility?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For her juvenile
detention Facility, the budget she turned in, okay? The --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's for both
facilities, fully staffed; is that correct?
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MS. HARRIS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We only have one
operated now, and not both fully staffed.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And your other one's
full, that she reported yesterday to Commissioners Court.
The operating budget, 2.6 million there, also does not
include the debt service that the County currently absorbed
for the next five years of 400-something thousand, so that
goes on top of that operating budget. Her salaries alone in
that operating budget are a little over 2 million --
2.1 million. My understanding -- and I'm not trying to be
ugly to Becky or anything else. I've stated several times
that I think we need a juvenile facility, and my statements
more or less in this part of it are not me as Sheriff; it's
more me as a taxpayer, is what I'm looking at. But the way
I see that and the way it was explained to me is, she has to
have -- is if she has both pre and postadjudicated
juveniles, she has to have separate staff for those.
Separate for pre, separate for post.
If you do away with the post, you cut that
staff in half, and you can still have 24 beds in that new
facility to house preadjudicated juveniles for this county.
And 29 beds, I think, would also be -- allow you enough to
house for the surrounding counties, kind of like what we do
with the adult jail, for a certain length of time, however
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long that would last, but doing it pres. This county has
had a history of housing our own postadjudicated juveniles
out of the county, which you do get partial reimbursement
from the State. Now, when I was out there the other day,
there was three postadjudicated juveniles. She reported to
the Commissioners yesterday that there was five.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff, what you're
overlooking in that -- in that dissertation, however, in
analyzing expenses of the juvenile facility, that operating
it at full capacity, 76 residents and two buildings, okay,
your expense load is, as you noted, 2.6. But what you
didn't note is that the revenue side is 2.8. -- 2.4, so the
operating deficit there comes out to about $122,000 plus
debt service.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Plus the 400-something.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which is already part
of the county budget. The debt service, that's already
equated into the county budget.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right, but the proposal
that I had made especially for the expansion at the adult
facility already includes that debt service on top of
everything else, too. Not added in afterwards.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think this -- we need
to remember how we got where we are a little bit. We
basically have a million dollars that we paid for the
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juvenile facility, you know. At the time it was refinanced,
the debt was about 1.9 million.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- I mean on the old
facility. And the original facility still --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No.
DODGE TINLEY: No, it was over two.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was over two?
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Based on the financial
analysis, it says it was 1.972.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which facility?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The old. I mean, if you
look at the difference, what was the outstanding balance on
the old facility at the time it was refinanced, --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- it was about 1. 9,
2 million. So, basically, we're -- our debt service at that
juvenile facility is basically the same as it was before we
built anything new.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's pretty close.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it's a couple
hundred thousand, maybe.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The money -- so I think
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that it is -- you really almost need to look at the
operational standpoint. I mean, if you look at it that way,
we have that new facility at almost no cost.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's exactly right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, no -- no
capital cost. So I think that's a -- you know, the way you
need to look at it, because that kind of opens up any kind
of -- you know, the horizon of options that we can do with
that building, because we really didn't spend anything for
it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's exactly right,
Commissioner. And -- and if you mix the debt service, as
the Sheriff has done in his analysis here, you are, in fact,
mixing apples and oranges, if you're mixing it in.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My analysis is not mixed
at the juvenile -- it is mentioned in there, in the
analysis, with any addition to the current adult jail. It
is figured in with that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think -- you know,
to follow up on that, I think, you know, everyone -- I won't
say everyone. Most people in the room seem to have
expressed an interest that we need to keep a juvenile
facility open in this county.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Including the
Sheriff.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: And Sheriff.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm saying.
It pretty much may just be a preadjudicated, but we need
some sort of a facility, which is what we are going to --
you know, we'd be paying the same amount of debt service as
we're currently paying to do that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And what we
understand is that the inconvenience of not having it -- a
juvenile facility has got to do with preadjudicated almost
entirely. The postadjudicated don't -- don't come back and
forth like the preadjudicated.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The down side to
that, however, is on the revenue side. When you're dealing
only in pre, you're dealing with a roller coaster revenue
stream, where if you're dealing in pre and post, the post is
a -- is a r_onstant revenue stream based on your census,
because they're there from six months to a year, where the
pre's are in and out; they're in and they're out. So,
there's a difference in there in terms of revenue side.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only problem that I
have with that is that when we're dealing with post, and the
way we're dealing with postadjudicated juveniles right now,
and with being what you said, 2.9 to 2.6 on -- on cost, is
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if we continue to deal with post, then myself and all of us
as taxpayers are supporting, as I wrote in there, and having
to supplement these other counties that are housing their
post here. We're paying part of our tax dollars for them to
much, and our income is not that much. I, personally -- and
this is me, personally. I don't mind, just like we do at
the adult jail, helping out our surrounding counties, but
it's not my desire for my tax dollars to help pay E1 Paso,
Coryell, Bexar, or any other county for their juveniles to
be in this county.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I don't disagree,
but I'm not convinced that what you're saying is accurate.
I think of the -- the costs -- you know, forget the new
facility out there. Before -- several years ago, when this
facility was making money, we had post and preadjudicated
out there, and we had a full facility, basically. I mean,
we were -- I mean, we -- you know, that's how it was
operating. So, we know that there were some funding
changes, but my desire has all along been to minimize the
cost to the taxpayers of Kerr County. We're going to spend
money on our preadjudicated and our postadjudicated, so I've
always tried to look at this as, what is going to cost us
the least?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's exactly the
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way I look at it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you're saying that
it's the preadjudicated only, which is going to basically
mean that we're going to -- there's no way for us to make
any revenue back. We're just going to be Kerr County kids,
which we're going to spend -- you know, we're going to have
to staff it at a certain level, and we're going to have a --
a continuous long-term outflow of funds in that area, you
know. I had thought that -- based on earlier analysis, that
if we filled up the balance of the beds in that facility
with postadjudicated, that would lessen that amount. You're
telling me it's not, so I have to look at Ms. Harris to find
that out.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My understanding would
be that if you fill it with post, yes, you're getting
revenue in, but your expenses are still higher than the
revenue, which means you and I are paying part of that
difference in there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It depends what that
difference is. I mean, yeah, your revenue -- your expenses
may be higher, but your revenue is increased. What's that
differential? That's what you got to look at.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. But, to me --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's the differential
at the end of the year.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: To me, the thing is, a
differential is a differential. If I'm having to supplement
E1 Paso's kids or any of the other counties, I don't think
it's right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, Sheriff, you
can make the same analysis --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As I stated in here, you
know, if the County chose to -- to raise the -- the cost to
El Paso or one of those counties for housing their kids to
where that would bring that revenue back up, and to where
Kerr County citizens aren't paying for that housing, then I
have -- you know, personally, I'd never have a problem with
that. We're helping kids out there. But if it costs the
taxpayers here, why should we pay it and not E1 Paso pay it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you need to look
at your scale, how it operates, make sure we're not
subsidizing other counties.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We aren't --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the same point
I was going to make.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You can make that point,
but we do not. Tommy can tell you that our cost is just a
little bit above break-even on what it costs for us to house
inmates. In the analysis I made here, if you wanted to fill
that thing totally up, or if you wanted to put -- if you add
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the 144 beds -- and this is all just figuring. I can't tell
you how long we could house this many. But if you started
out with 80 inmates a year you're housing for other
counties, it's right at almost a $1.2 million revenue on
those, which is -- then your actual cost of staffing and
everything else is about 1.1 totally, including the debt
service in that, and you're not going in the hole. It's not
that reverse deal that we're doing now. The other thing is,
on postadjudicated, the State does reimburse the counties
for part of that. They don't reimburse the counties for any
of the preadjudicated.
MS. HARRIS: They don't reimburse on every
post. Depends on the classification.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's exactly why
it went from years ago to where they could house a lot of
post and make money off those posts and bring the revenues
up higher, but when the State changed their structuring rate
on how the kids are classified and what revenue levels you
get and that, that's when the revenues went down. And my
understanding of everything I've heard for the last eight
months in this court is that's part of the reason the
facility went under.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do we have a revenue
forecast for '05-'06 for the juvenile facility?
MS. HARRIS: Yes.
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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What is it?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Depending on how many
beds you're talking about. Are you talking about a full
bore of 48? You're talking about 48 in one building, right?
You're looking at -- hold on -- 1.67 million, a deficit of
588. If you're looking at 72 beds, the full thing, you're
talking about 2.480 -- say 2.5 against expenditures of 2. 6,
or a $122,000 deficit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: In that number, how are
you using -- or how is Becky using Kerr County kids? Is it
counted in the revenue, and then --
MS. HARRIS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's counted on the
revenue side?
MS. HARRIS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you have to --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You would have to deduct
that one. So far this year, it's $95,000.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it has to be
counted on the revenue side, because you're engaging in
expenditures to keep those kids there and do their --
whatever you do to try to rehabilitate them. The expense is
there, so it has to -- they have to have the offsetting
revenue.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But what I'm saying --
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where the revenue
comes from, the Sheriff's trying to make a point that it's a
shell game here. I'm not sure I like that analogy, but we
fund the Juvenile Probation Department for "X" number of
dollars a year for all of its activities, including housing
Kerr County kids, and so if Kerr County kids end up out
there, Juvenile Probation has to pass that money over.
Kevin Stanton sat right in the office the other day not too
long ago with Commissioner Baldwin and I and offered to --
to work with the Auditor to take those funds out of his
budget and direct them right straight over to the facility.
So, it's not really a shell game. You got to put -- you got
to put the money -- the revenue where the expense is, and
you got to account for the expenses of keeping the kids.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I think another item
in -- in connection with that is that some funds that cone
into the Juvenile Probation Department budget are special
state funds for alternative housing, and the -- the
appropriation comes to Juvenile Probation, and I think
that's, at least in part, why this conduit is used that way.
But --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: According --
JUDGE TINLEY: -- there's some state funds
there too that come in that can be used for pres.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, according to Kevin
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Stanton, the preadjudicated get no state funds; that that is
all Kerr County money that was budgeted to the Probation
Department and then billed from the Juvenile Detention
Center to the Probation Department, and goes back into the
General Fund of Kerr County. Now, that analogy of shell
game, that's the only way I could see it. That's the only
way I feel it is, that we're just shuffling the same money
around. But it is not -- I don't understand the logic -- or
any logic of thinking that that could be considered as
revenue for that facility. It started out --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It has to be, because
the expenses are there.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Then you need to take it
out of what you're saying that facility is making. If
you're saying that facility's making this county
$2.9 million, it's not, because over 100,000 -- well, it's
95,000 so far this year -- started out Kerr County money,
and ended right back up to being Kerr County money.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's money that has
to be spent. I mean, it's --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why I say keep
the preadjudicated there. Okay. The whole deal -- I tried
to bring some light on some subjects. I tried to be honest,
open about it. This is -- as I've also stated in there, I
don't want this workshop to get sidetracked from what our --
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what I feel our problem is, which is adult detention right
now. But as I've stated in there, you know, and I've told
each one of y'all that it's not my dream, intent, desire, or
anything else to add one more bed onto that adult facility,
or really one more staff as long as I'm Sheriff. I'd like
to retire and somebody else have to deal with that. But it
doesn't work that way, 'cause the more beds, the more staff,
the more problems, is about how it ends up being. But we're
at a situation that I feel that if I just sat back -- and
we've already, two weeks ago, borrowed 15 mattresses from
Gillespie County. Two weeks ago, we had six inmates
sleeping on the floor. That I feel we're at a point where I
don't have a choice any more; I feel we do have to add --
Jail Commission's recommendation is 96 beds.
If you look at that Facility Needs Analysis,
they say that will last us till the year 2025, and the Jail
Commission's recommendation on the current facility that we
have was 192 beds, and that would last 20 years -- 15 to 20
years. We're nine years into that, and we're looking at
having to add on. So, I had done my analysis and my part of
this report before I received the Jail Commission's report
from them, and I do not feel like changing mine. I feel
like mine's a little bit more accurate in -- in real numbers
and real figures, after my 25 years experience working with
the jail in this county, as to what we're going to see. And
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I think you're going to come close to trying to make it to
the year 2025, and I really don't think it will make -- I
think you're going to need at least 144 beds in that
facility.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. On the -- so,
you're -- what would you like?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's not what I would
like.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What you're recommending
is that we do nothing from your standpoint with the juvenile
facility, old or new, and we embark on a bond issue to add
on to the jail? That's what you're saying you think we need
to do?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For
and to keep my employee ratio from going
quick to staff a whole 'nother building,
definitely be uneconomical, because your
always be there and they're always high,
-- of staff we'd have to add to just run
>taffing purposes
up too high real
which I think would
staff costs will
and the number of
a 48-bed facility
out away from us, compared to the number of staff we'd have
to add to run a 48-bed facility addition onto ours, yes, I
think we need to add on to the current jail. I think
security issues, staffing issues, just the overall economic
costs of taking over that facility out there is definitely
not worth it to the taxpayers, in my opinion.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: What are you going to do
in the next three years? 'Cause this is going to take three
years to do this.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why I'm glad
we're starting where we are. At least right now, we're
trying. I really don't know, okay?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we have to --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think -- like I said
in here in talking about the work program, I think if we get
a work program going real well and strongly, that does help.
It will not help much, but it will help, because your --
your people that are already through the court system,
instead of -- say they're sitting a year in the county jail.
If we have that person out working, he's going to get
two-thirds good time, because he gets a lot more time if
he's working. If he is just sitting in a bed taking up
space in that county jail, as long as he's not being a
problem inmate, he's getting one-third good time. So,
you're -- you're actually giving them more good time,
because you are getting work out of them, thus you're
running those people through your system quicker and opening
up beds sooner.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Rusty, if you start
this --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whether this will last
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us two or three years, I don't know.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If you put that work
program in place, just guess how many fewer prisoners you'd
have a year or two from now.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I honestly think if we
put a good, strong work program into place, I think the
public impression of that and other people's impression,
just on what we've learned off our program now, with the --
with these younger kids and these guys out there in black
and white stripes working here at the courthouse and
different areas, I think there's some impact that I could
have that I could never figure. All I could do is pray and
hope that they're very positive, 'cause I think they are
with the younger kids.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But it would -- some
of the men and women who are there today wouldn't be there a
year from now because they were participating in the work
program?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So there's a
handful? A dozen? Or --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And you can ask Bobby
Johnson. Some of ours -- the one thing we've found is we've
had less repeat offenders when they've been on that work
program than if they aren't, so I think the more we get in
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there, the less repeat offenders we'll have, the quicker
time they're getting credit for that when we run them there,
and you're going to open up beds. I couldn't tell you how
many.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I guess -- well,
first of all, I want the work program, and I'll do
everything I can to fund that, but you need to get that done
in this next year's budget. That may be cheap talk, 'cause
there may not be any money to do that, but I think we really
need to do that. But going back to your issue, is that the
-- with that being said, and assuming the Court goes along
with that, which I think Commissioner Nicholson seems to
like the program. I haven't talked to the rest of the
Commissioners. What timetable do you want to pursue for a
jail? Because you're saying -- I mean, I'm guessing three
years. I suspect three years is pretty realistic, by the
time we make the decision that we're going to go to the
voters with a bond issue, before you get a jail. And we
can't go to the voters until we get -- and we have to hire
some kind of an architect or something; we have to have
something for them to vote on. And we may have enough
numbers already that are active enough. We're just adding
on to the jail, so we can maybe avoid that expense. But at
what point do you think we need to go to the voters?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, Commissioner, the
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reason I sat down and we took so much time to try and
prepare for this workshop instead of coming in and us having
to have a number of workshops to get something figured out
is because I do feel it's at a stage that we need to start
acting now.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you think we need to
schedule a bond issue this fall?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think we need to --
having gone through this before, we need to get the
architect or some consultants and figure out a good cost of
it, because what I have figured in here is what one
architect told me several months ago, that the cost of
adding to a jail is about $50,000 per bed. But the Director
of Jail Operations told me the other day that you could
actually look at it anywhere from the mid-30's up to 50,000,
depending on how fancy and fabulous you want to get and what
all else you're going to add to your jail. So, if we're
just adding dormitory-type cells -- and there would have to
be a few single cells to keep the ratio in, but not very
much, but if we're adding dormitory-type cells into that
deal, I -- off, you know, the cost ~f it, I think -- I think
the costs that I've quoted in here at 50,000 a bed would be
high. I think we could drop that cost, and we need some
real figures to be able to -- to go to the citizens with.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you take the jail
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standards and the fact that we're probably one of the most
expensive counties in the state to build in right now --
which we are; extremely expensive construction costs in the
in the hill country, not just Kerr County but ip Kendall
County -- we're going to be pushing the $50, I would expect.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 50,000.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or $50,000, not $50.
JODGE TINLEY: Sheriff, there was some
legislation that had been filed, and I frankly don't know
what the ultimate outcome was, dealing with the reduction of
square footage space that --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It failed.
JODGE TINLEY: -- was required. Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I -- in fact, I found
that out, Your Honor, just a few minutes ago. Because one
of the few issues -- and this is something y'all may all
look at. I just got mine today, okay? And in this issue of
County Progress, there is a very good article about the
state of Texas and our jails. It gives the average
population -- or the population report for every county
inside the state of Texas, what their county jails are
looking at, what they're doing. It gives a few pages over
the -- there are 60 counties that are looking at adding jail
space right now. There are 74 counties that are housing out
of county, and it lists all those. Some of them are in the
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process of already adding. Some aren't. It talks about --
the article itself from Terry Julian talks about the female
housing issue in the state and how it is exploding, and
everybody's overcrowded with females. We're going to have
more and more problems with that, and we're already getting
real close to the max. So, it is a very good article, and I
would recommend everybody look at it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff, what are the
Jail Standards requirements for a work release program, for
the housing of work release people versus your normal
run-of-the-mill incarcerated folk?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay, there's two
different programs. First you have to look at -- one's a
work release and one's a work program.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, tell me about
both.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. The work program
is an inmate classified as minimum security, that he is an
inmate, period; he's going to be an inmate the whole time.
And because of his classification, then you can take him out
and do manual labor, and the -- under the Work Programs tab,
it says -- there's an article first about -- I believe it
was Upshur County or Eastland County on their additions,
they're using inmate labor, but there is -- under -- sorry,
it's under the law one. The first deal under the law tab,
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which is a House Bill that went through this year. It's
sitting on the governor's desk as we speak. I haven't heard
that he has signed it yet. I expect that he will, as
everybody else expects he will. The only part that has been
added to that, to the law -- this is actually out of the
Code of Criminal Procedure, is the part that is underlined.
Everything else that is not underlined was already what we
could do with manual labor, and that's manual labor out of
an inmate. What is underlined is they are now adding the
503(c) nonprofit organizations, as long as I request of the
Commissioners Court -- before I take inmates out to work at
one, I have to bring it to the Commissioners Court. Y'all
would have to find that that organization does provide a
public service, and you could authorize inmate labor going
out and doing work there. The other one is -- is that if
the County expends any funds on keeping up cemeteries or
anything like that, inmate labor can be used to maintain
those cemeteries. And the other part of that is -- which
really would throw in all the cemeteries, just about, is any
cemetery that has a grave marker that's older than 50 years
old, the inmates may be used to maintain that cemetery. So,
it's kind of a different deal, but that's how that works on
inmate labor. There's a lot of projects we can use.
Inmate work release program is a different
animal, in that what happens there is that the inmate is
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sentenced to jail by either a District Judge or a County
Court at Law Judge. It can be for a felony or a
misdemeanor, as long as it's nonviolent or any of that type
stuff. Same process for the work program, except that I
have to send the District Judge a classification report and
everything on that particular inmate, and then the District
or County Judge must order that that inmate be released to
participate in a work release program. In talking to Smith
County, they have both. They say their work release program
has pretty well died on the vine; it's never gotten off.
Now, they use the work program extensively and work their
inmates. In visiting with them, what they feel happened
with the work release program is there weren't very many
judges that wanted to take on the liability of ordering a
Sheriff to release this inmate to go to work. In black and
white, that's about what it is.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's essentially a program
where the inmate spends his night in jail, but he's released
in the morning to go to his regular job or employment,
reports back in that same evening and spends the night in
jail.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER; Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Just like the jail were his
home, but otherwise free to move around.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, you know my
questron.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But he only gets good
time for the actual time spent in jail, okay? So if he's
got a year sentence, he's going to spend a greater portion
of that year than that inmate in your regular work program
that is getting that good time for, you know, every minute
he's there.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, would you
basically categorize each of these two programs -- the
inmates, would you categorize them as minimum security?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You have to.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tn both situations?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You have to. You cannot
do them any other way than minimum security.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. My question to
you, then, is, what are the requirements -- what would the
requirements be -- I know you can't ascertain the costs,
except maybe seat-of-the-pants, but what would the
requirements be to take, for example, the 48-bed facility
and convert it to a work release or work program facility to
house minimum security people? That's my question.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. Under T.C.J.S.
Juvenile Requirements tab in your book, you'll see exactly
from the Jail Commission what they state must be done to
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convert that facility.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What tab and what
page are we looking at?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's the second tab in
your book, first page on the second tab.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: First page, second
tab.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It states, "Texas
Commission on Jail Standards" at the very top of it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Those are the things
that they first say would have to be done or to accomplish,
and there is one situation in there which I would not be
comfortable with at all.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that would be?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That would be if we take
all the cell doors off to make it suitable, square footage
wise, to house 98 inmates. I'm not comfortable with that
security level. I'm not comfortable with having to have a
corrections officer -- because at the bottom of this,
they're saying two employees, one for your control room,
five for the 48, which five is what it takes for one around
the clock. You'd have one employee walking that dormitory
area inside that new facility. He has to go into the
cellblock hourly to have his visual check of every inmate.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Excuse me. You said
the new facility?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In the new building.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm talking about the
old building.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The old building?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have not looked at the
old building. The old building has a tin roof. The first
time we did look at it several months ago, it would not
satisfy at all, even for minimum security.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But your going to a
48-bed would put an officer -- a jailer in jeopardy?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You would put --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: He'd be -- he or she
would be locked in with --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You would put a jailer
in jeopardy doing his rounds, because he has to put himself
with a key between 16 inmates and the door.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And at that point, those
inmates could, in about half a second, take control of that
entire facility, and you could have 48 inmates get released
real quick and jail personnel get hurt. That, to me, would
not even be consider -- considerable, nor should be
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considered in that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you don't think --
it's not a viable option?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not in my opinion, no.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that's talking
about the new building. You're speaking now to the new
building?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The new building.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The old building is not
usable for adults.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because of the roof?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because of the roof and
the way it was constructed to begin with, and the
ventilation system. I would have to go back -- I think I
brought the original deal from before, if I can remember
what they had to say about that, 'cause we toured both of
them last time, and they said the old building wouldn't be
-- be able to be used at all.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In its current state?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They said the only way
this was -- I have to go back and think of which Jail
Commission inspector it was who said if you want to use that
oLd building, you might as well bulldoze it down and build
it from the ground up.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- it seems to me
that -- I mean, you're -- you're saying the juvenile
facility doesn't work, old or new. We've told you that --
or some of us have told you that we want a work program.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I want a work program.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you want a work
program. And the question, then, is timing to hire an
architect.
SHERIFF' HIERHOLZER; Now, I will tell you the
new facility will work with some modifications if you only
wanted to house the 24 people in there. And 24 people will
not save you at all on out-of-county -- on --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to vote a
96 or a 144, but I've got a question for you, Commissioners.
What's -- what's the voters' inclination on things like
this? Is this a slam-dunk? Do they never pass? How do you
sell that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a tough sell.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's a tough sell.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He'll have to sell it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: He'll have to sell it.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The first time we went
to the voters to build that facility out there now, it
failed. The second time, it did pass.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But there's a -- it
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passed, but there -- it didn't pass -- well, the
construction phase left a lot of people very upset.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I remember that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So there's -- I mean, I
think you're going to -- adding onto that facility is going
to resurrect a lot of that, and -- you know, and not --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We11, one of the
biggest -- to me, one of the biggest problems with getting
it past the voters at this time is, number one, when we
built that facility, we did exactly what happens every time,
okay? The voters, the Jail Commission, everybody said it's
going to last 15, 20 years, and in nine years now, we're
going back to the voters to add on. That is the main reason
the Jail Commission and I differ on the number of beds,
okay? Now, true, by the time -- if we add 96 beds, I'd be
retired in a few years before that ever comes out that we're
out of space. But if this county wants to make it permanent
and be -- be honest with the voters that it may truly last
15 to 20 years, you'd better go with 144 beds, or it's not
going to work, and do what the voters thought we were going
to do when we originally opened that current building, which
was immediately house out-of-county inmates until we got to
the point we couldn't. There were several years there
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that -- that there were not very many out-of-county inmates
housed in that facility, and should have been.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- the
argument about housing out-of-county prisoners to help pay
for it is very shaky.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Out-of-county prisoners
is an even cut. It really is, okay?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The history of this
county has not been that it was a very good deal. And I
think --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right now.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it may be in the
last few years, but that's a nine-year-old facility. And
the first several years, for whatever reason -- I mean, I'm
not --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER; The one thing you do
have is the population reports in the County Progress
magazine issued by the Jail Standards, and in those that are
looking at adding on or doing anything else, they do have,
like, Bandera County listed in here, but they have no work,
no nothing done. They aren't even thinking about it, I
guess, at this time.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, they are.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, they've been
thinking about it, but I don't know that anything is going
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through by this report, and from what I've heard, they're
housing right now 42 inmates out of county. Fredericksburg,
I was surprised; they're only housing about 13 inmates out
of county right now, and they're housing them up in Comanche
County. And the other thing is the cost. Now, it does cost
everybody to house inmates out of county. While we were in
the construction phase of the current jail we're at now, I
believe the County was budgeting anywhere from -- I don't
know if Tommy's here. It was anywhere from -- depending on
the month and the year, from 300,000 to 600,000 a year on
out-of-county housing.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What's the down side
to just keeping our current capacity and eating the cost of
housing prisoners out of county?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, we billed -- first
year I took office -- second year, I guess, we billed -- I'd
have to run that billing report, but I know Bandera County
just about spent half a million a year just to us for the
cost of out-of-county housing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess, really, it's up
to --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like the work
program. I'd like to see him get that established. I'm not
so sure I'm ready to sign off on 96 beds or whatever size
facility.
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COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I see over-building
at this point, analogous to the juvenile center in its
current state and current census as being over-built, if you
will, for lack of a better term. We've got a large facility
and we're hoping to fill it up, and if we over-build you,
we're going to have a large facility and then we'll be
waiting to fill it up. I don't know that I'm all that
sanguine about taking out-of-county in, just like you're not
all that sanguine about taking out-of-county J.D.'s in.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, there's a real big
difference, though, in staffing and housing county cost
analysis in adult and juveniles. One of the biggest
long-term differences is, in her juvenile facility, it's
either a 1-to-8 or 1-to-12 ratio. In an adult facility,
it's 1-to-48.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's true, but you
do two different things. There's rehabilitation on one side
of the equation, and there's incarceration, period, on the
other side. Can't mix those two.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, the --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Rehabilitation is
postadjudicated, and most postadjudicated this County's had
a history of housing out of county anyhow, so there is not a
mixing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Buster is looking at one,
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then the other.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is getting
interesting, finally.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, we should pursue
the work program. I think that shows the taxpayers that
we're making a bona fide effort to do something positive,
and also that helps -- we hope it will reduce the population
and buy a year, and postpone any construction for a year.
But get a work program in place and see if it does, in fact,
do what you think it will do, is help your population a
little bit. And I think even if it doesn't, it's worth -- I
think we ought to do it.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, my only
consideration with that was, like I started out saying, I
think it was 2001, we first hit 200 in that jail, okay?
Population. The work program needs to go. We need -- that
may relieve us enough not to house out of county during the
construction phase of adding onto that facility. But I
think if you want to -- to do the work program and then just
sit back and wait a year or two to see how well it does,
then we're going to be in a situation that's a whole lot
worse. We're going to be running the work program and
paying out of county, and I don't know of a county right now
within 100 miles of us that's housing adults, and the cost
of that's going to be horrendous.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How far?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 100 miles.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know one within
100 miles.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I haven't heard from the
Judge and Number 1. I heard -- I mean, I hear two
possibilities of getting architects and one possibly not
getting an architect.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I look at it a
little bit differently. See, I look at it from -- I think
that the taxpayers -- there are four things that they
demand. One is police protection, fire protection,
ambulance service, and a nice road to drive on. And they
demand that police protection. And the way I see it is that
our facility is full, and it's full of our local bad people.
And there's a continual growth in the county, so that's not
going to stop. They -- Rusty and his staff, I think, are
being good cops, good law enforcement, so they're out there
arresting bad people more. That's just the way I see it.
So I don't -- you know, I see -- I love the work program. I
love either one of those things, either one of the work
programs. Just get them out -- get them out here. I want
to see them out on the side of the road picking up trash
with a deputy on horseback with a shotgun, is what I want to
see. And -- but I don't -- that -- that doesn't give us any
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relief in the overcrowding.
I do not see us driving people to other
counties, whether it's 100 miles or 50 miles. I just don't
-- I don't see that at all. To me, that's a ridiculous way
to do things, especially when you're -- Clay and I were
talking at lunch today. You hire -- I mean, you arrest a
guy one night, a drunken idiot, so you would -- we take him
out of the county. Let's just say Fredericksburg. We take
him to Fredericksburg and lock him up, and the deputy comes
on back and goes back to work. He's got to go back over
there the next morning and get him to get him magistrated,
bring him back over and get him magistrated, take him back
over there and put him in jail. That doesn't make sense to
me, okay? You'd have a couple of deputies in a couple of
cars that are out there on the highway all the time. And it
just -- unless the Judge wants to donate part of his salary
and buy us a helicopter. That might -- that might work.
But I -- I just think -- I think the long-term picture
involves more beds. And I would not wait -- I would not
wait a year and a half to do that, 'cause it's going to be
worse -- a lot worse in a year and a half than it is today.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One thing, if I may
interject right here --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I don't think
I'm going to let you quite yet. I'm not through.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But I do feel like --
I do feel like that we need to utilize the juvenile facility
in a better way. We need to figure out a way to use it to
at least break even, as opposed to what's going on there
now, and that's --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all can argue with
the Sheriff all you want to, but we're subsidizing other
counties with our taxpayers' money, so I think we need to --
you know, if the Sheriff -- you know, it's not -- it's not
something that this Commissioner has this big brainstorm or
an understanding of what's going on, but the Sheriff is the
professional. He knows -- he knows what's going on out
there, and I think we should listen to his -- his
recommendations. I don't know that I would, you know, vote
-- I wouldn't vote today on going to hire an architect, but
I think that we need to take a really close look at it and
start kind of moving in that direction. I really and truly
do. I think we need to either move in that direction or
turn the bad people loose out in the public.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's three votes. Get
it on the agenda.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, one other thing
that I would like to add is the T.D.C. population -- that
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was something that you had asked me about, Jonathan, and we
got that. It is under one of the tabs marked "T.D.C.
Population." As of April 2005, their capacity for the
statewide T.D.C. system was 159,702. Their current
population was 151,308. Last month, T.D.C. contracted with
two county jails, one up in Bowie and one somewhere else, to
each house 250 of their T.D.C. overflow, and according to
the Jail Commission, they expect T.D.C. to shut their doors
in August. Now, if that happens, we will be in the
situation that Jonathan and a lot of us can remember -- I
know Buster can -- before, where -- where we stacked up so
bad it was unreal.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The issue, then, seems to
me -- you want to -- I mean, does the Court want to
entertain interviewing architects during budget, or wait
till after budget? 'Cause what I'm hearing is a majority of
the Court wants to follow your recommendation and at least
get an architect on board to find out the cost.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we made a
decision right now to build -- expand the jail whatever, 48
or 96, in the 'O5-'06 year, would our -- looking at
timeline, would our only cost be architecture or
consultants? Or would we -- would you be breaking ground
before the --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You got to go to a
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bond issue.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Generally, the --
generally, I think the architects, there's no fee as long as
they -- you're hiring the architect, but there's no fee up
front. They'll do a certain amount of work free, contingent
on the bond passing. If the bond fails, they're just out
their money. So, there's really no funds out-of-pocket for
us to do it, as long as we convince the architects that
we're serious about it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's correct.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think we ought to
move forward. That doesn't mean I'm -- like Commissioner
Baldwin, I'm not ready to vote today to build a new jail or
to spend money toward that, but unless -- unless I hear a
better solution, it looks like we're going to run out of
beds. And also, I don't like the idea of our uniformed
officers being taxicab drivers.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I don't either.
I have no problem with that. I just -- I'm just not
convinced yet that we don't have some facilities that could
be rehabilitated, and I think I would hold out for -- if
we're going to engage an architect, I want him to do an
assessment on those facilities. I want to hear from it a
professional what it takes to -- a building professional
that knows jail standards, what it takes to make a facility
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that's usable.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's reasonable.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have a problem
with that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a good idea,
and we're going to have Terry Julian down here to appear
before this Court to tell us how the cow eats the cabbage.
He's the last guy that's going to sign off on anything.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And he is? Refresh
my memory.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the Jail
Standards guy.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He has offered to come
down anytime this Court would request him to.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I see.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I would definitely
recommend, Commissioner Williams, the same thing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the other part of
that is, we've gotten costs. I think the architect -- and
we need an architect to assess the current jail and -- and
exactly what -- you can't just add -- plop 144 beds in and
expect that infrastructure to work out there. I mean,
there's other costs that are going to happen, and what --
you know, and we need to find that out. And I don't -- the
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Sheriff shouldn't -- you know, I don't think he knows and
shouldn't be expected to know that. So, I mean, the steps
to find out is an architect.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill, let me ask you a
question. Exactly what are you referring to when you talk
about doing a study of the best way to use the facilities?
Are you talking about the present adult facility, if there's
a better way to use the space? Are you talking about the
possibility of using part of the juvenile facility?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That. The latter,
yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, Z like that too.
7 think that's the route to go. I don't know about Rusty's
locked doors and all that stuff, but there's got to be a way
around his problem.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There has to be
something other than converting it into the most expensive
storage shed in Kerr County.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the new
facility, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't -- that's a nice
facility. It is a nice facility.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is. We've heard
from four people, but we haven't heard from the County
Judge.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. I'm
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going to go back to sleep, Judge. Go get 'em.
JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the alternatives, as I
see it, if we -- if we do nothing, we're going to be in
violation of Jail Standards Commission, in which case we'll
eventually get slapped, or we're going to be paying
out-of-county, or both. Or we turn some bad guys out on the
street that shouldn't be out on the street, or all three. I
don't like any of those three. Temporarily, I could
probably stand the payment of some out-of-county. We're
getting close to the edge with the Jail Standards
Commission; I think that occurs very frequently.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And they already know
that we have housed inmates on the floor in the last month.
JUDGE TINLEY: And -- well, you're obliged to
notify them.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm required.
JUDGE TINLEY: If you're out of compliance,
you're obliged to notify them, just like in the juvenile
facility, if there's a similar-type problem, there's an
obligation to notify them. But --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Exactly right.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- as long as you are making
any reasonable affirmative step towards remediation,
whatever that may be, finding additional outside space, in
talks with an architect, design for enlarged facilities,
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whatever. So, that'll give you some breathing room. I
think, as Commissioner Baldwin said, you know, unless the
citizens want the ultimate result to be that these bad guys
are on the street, you know, walking around in their
neighborhoods and doing the things that they do, unless
they're willing to accept that, I think we've got to come up
with a solution. As Commissioner Baldwin said, we've got a
-- we've got a growth situation. It's not going to go away.
I don't agree with the growth projections that -- that you
see out of a lot of the demographic studies and so forth. I
saw some just the other day that showed the population of
Kerr County in 2015 as only going to be 48,000, I think it
was. I think that's a farce. It may have been the one that
you had attar_hed.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER; The Facilities Needs
Study that the Jail Commission used, they got theirs from
the State Data Systems or something, and they are projecting
-- they're saying county population 4/30 was 47,026, and
they are projecting 50,486 by 2010, 59,000 by 2015, and
57,230 by 2020. That's what they're using.
DODGE TINLEY: I've seen some that were much
lower than that. And my point is, you can -- you can crunch
those numbers any way you want to, but I think -- I think,
as we've looked at those numbers develop over the past 25
years, they've historically had to be adjusted upward
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virtually every time, because the percentage was too low.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right.
JODGE TINLEY: And they keep having to be
adjusted upward, and as evidenced by when this facility came
online in '96, we were looking at a 15- to 20-year solution.
Well, obviously, we don't have that as a solution, and it
didn't just happen. It's been bumping at that for a year or
two out there. So --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, my closing
144-bed. Possibly there are some ways at looking at some
other programs besides just the work release, and I really
don't know of any offhand. Maybe a weekender program; we
did that years ago, where they just spent weekend nights in
jail and were released, but they still count, and you have
to have a totally separate cellblock for them. But maybe we
can kind of think outside the box and come up with some
other ways and some other programs that would help us some
on our population problem, but I don't believe any program
we'd come up with is going to solve either having to add the
96- or the 144-bed. Maybe we could keep it down at 96, but
I don't see that we're going to get away from adding.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sheriff, I'll look at
you, then, to put it on our agenda to go out for RFP's.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Is it architects that I
need to ask for? Or is it a consultant, or how does this --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Architects.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I can't remember how
this all worked at that time, Jonathan.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe we have to hire
architects.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have to do an RFQ for
architecture services.
JUDGE TINLEY: They call it professional RFQ.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: RFQ.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whatever.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Request for
Qualifications.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can never get the
two of them straightened out, P and Q.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: During our budget
workshop process, the only thing that I would have to
consider -- and I know Judge Tinley knows this -- on
actually starting a good work program to get the inmates out
is, one, four staff members 8:00 to 5:00, Monday through
Friday, and then transportation. And we had looked at
possibly even going to a bluebird-type bus, because I can
buy one bus for cheaper than I can buy two cars.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd just -- just put it
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on a separate page. And I would also get a separate -- a
little package deal.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, as special programs.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under special projects or
whatever you want to call it.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What was the topic of the
workshop? Is this -- is it just jail?
JUDGE TINLEY: Discuss jail-slash-detention
and related issues.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is juvenile related?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we recessed for
the juvenile contract.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean juvenile
discussion in general.
JUDGE TINLEY: Jail-slash-detention and
related issues. Yes, we've included that. It was
intentionally stated that way.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question would be to
Ms. Harris. And I don't know if you have the information or
not, but I would like to see a breakdown as to what it costs
for the staff and -- you know, to keep the minimum amount
for preadjudicated only at the facility, and then what it
costs to -- on the direction we're going right now, which is
to keep it as -- you know, keep the preadjudicated out
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there, and then fill it up with postadjudicated. Because
what I'm -- you know, what I'm hearing -- or what the
Sheriff says, as I understood it, is that with the
reimbursement that we're getting from the postadjudicated,
we will never -- we're always going to be subsidizing other
counties, and that's what I need to find out. If that's
true, I agree, I don't -- there's no reason to put
postadjudicated kids out there. If we're -- you know, so --
and I just don't know the answer. I mean, that's what the
Sheriff said, so we need to find out. I need to find that
out, either now or, you know, at our next meeting. Or I was
always under the impression that the reason for the
postadjudicated was to help offset the operating costs of
the facility.
MS. HARRIS:
COMMISSIONER
saying one thing and you're
MS. HARRIS:
COMMISSIONER
the numbers as to what it c
preadjudicated.
And it
LETZ:
saying
I know
LETZ:
~sts to
is, sir. It is.
Well, but the Sheriff's
something else.
I need to see, I guess,
staff it, the
MS. HARRIS: It's going to cost the same to
staff it for pre as it does for post, 'cause the staffings
are the same.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean --
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JUDGE TINLEY: Do you see any trends
MS. HARRIS: Not right now, I'm not. If Hays
County is going under the jurisdiction and the operation of
the County Commissioners, they're in the process of
switching that over as we speak, so Hays County's going to
be operated by their County Commissioners. There was a
public hearinq in Tom Green County on June the 6th regarding
Roy K. Robb, turning Roy K. Robb from a juvenile facility to
an adult female C.R.T.C., which is inpatient court-ordered
substance abuse treatment facility. Nobody showed up;
nobody protested it. They're waiting for the governor to
sign the budget. When the governor signs the budget, then
they're going to move forward, and the Department of
Criminal Justice has already allocated 5400,000 to do the
renovations that's needed for that facility. So, it's
looking like -- after I talked with the adult chief
probation officer the other day, it looks like that Roy K.
Robb's probably going to close, probably mid-July. At the
latest, at the end of July, because he's got to have all the
renovations done in order to start accepting females
September 1. With that facility closing, that's another
substance abuse treatment program that will no longer be
offered. And I might add, I also found out yesterday that
there was an outpatient adolescent substance abuse treatment
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program that was grant money-driven that Tom Green County
has had for four or five years. They're not getting that
grant money any more. So, for Tom Green County and the five
connecting counties, which is Coke, Runnels, Concho, Irion,
and Schleicher Counties, there will be no substance abuse
treatment for adolescents, inpatient or outpatient. So the
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JUDGE TINLEY: Hays County, are they -- are
they converting that to an adult facility?
MS. HARRIS: No.
JUDGE TINLEY: I understood at one time they
were considering it.
MS. HARRIS: They were looking at that, but
right now, no.
JUDGE TINLEY: Are there other facilities in
the state that are transitioning any of their juvenile
facilities to other uses?
MS. HARRIS: I don't know that, Judge Tinley.
I haven't heard anything else. I don't know. I don't know.
Normally, the trend -- any time you see an increase in -- in
the adult prison system, when you start seeing an influx in
the adult prison system, normally you're going to see the
same trend in juvenile, usually following a year, year and a
half later. It usually goes hand-in-hand. Also, you're
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talking about an increase in Kerr County adult inmates
because your population is increasing. They have kids, so
you're going to see an increase in -- in Kerr County
juveniles as well. So, I see that the Sheriff's estimates
on population increase is going to go pretty well
hand-in-hand with the juveniles, pretty -- pretty close to
the same timeline.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is the -- the amount of
money that we are charging -- for example, the two contracts
pending in El Paso County and Cameron County, is the amount
of money that we are going to be charging or getting from
those counties for housing their postadjudicated kids, is it
going to -- I guess excluding debt, is it going to pay for
itself? I mean, is that going to cover the cost, 100
percent of the operating cost for housing those kids?
MS. HARRIS: No. Not even pres.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, pre's I don't care
about, 'cause pre's are Kerr County kids, you know, and a
few other surrounding counties, so the postadjudicated. So
what is the reason, then, if we're not -- if the
reimbursement rate's not going to cover the cost, why would
we want to continue to do it?
MS. HARRIS: I don't know. I'm doing it
because that's what I was hired to do.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
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MS. HARRIS: I was doing it because that's
what that facility was designed to do. And in order to keep
it doinq what revenue it's doing -- we had $80,000 worth of
revenue last May -- last month, $80,000 worth of revenue.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- well, let me
rephrase it. We -- on the preadjudicated side, we're
keeping, on a daily basis, maybe up to 12, it looks like,
you know.
MS. HARRIS: Between S and 12.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Between 8 and 12,
somewhere in there. What if we staffed it based on that?
What would it do to your current staffing if we were to
staff it to a maximum of 12 or 14 kids? Would that
reduce -- I mean, how much of a staff cut would that be?
MS. HARRIS: Are you wanting to use the old
building or the new building? Because the dorms are set up
different; they hold different amounts.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: For simplicity at the
moment, probably the old.
MS. HARRIS: For 12?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Or -- I mean, I
don't know -- the jail breaks at 48, is the number.
MS. HARRIS: Right. Ours breaks at 8.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: At 8?
MS. HARRIS: At 8.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Say -- well, I guess,
what's the cost of staff at 6, and what it would cost to
staff at 16, would be my question.
MS. HARRIS: You'd have to have 12 J.D.O.'s
to staff it for 16, plus shift supervisors, control
operators.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I'm asking the
question -- the number -- I'd like to get a number on paper,
just so I can figure out what is -- you know, what it's
going to cost to staff it for 8, 16, 24, 32, each of the
levels up to whatever the capacity of that facility is, the
old facility only. 48?
MS. HARRIS: So, you want to staff the old
facility, not the new facility?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Which is more economical to
staff?
MS. HARRIS: It depends on what population --
JUDGE TINLEY: Is one more economical than
the other, the way the -- the way the dormitories are set
up?
MS. HARRIS: Well, you can put 12 kids in a
dorm in the old building, and you can only put 8 kids in a
dorm in the new building. But you got to remember, you've
got to keep the girls and the boys separate.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
MS. HARRIS: And that requires female
J.D.O.'s and male J.D.O.'s. So, you need to figure on a bid
of 12 girls and a bid of 12 boys, so you got to have so many
female staffing, so many male staff.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The old building also
has kitchen and laundry facilities, right?
MS. HARRIS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whereas the new
building does not.
MS. HARRIS: That's correct. That's correct.
1 just want to say that it would be real difficult for me to
]ook a kid that doesn't live here and that's not from
here -- to look that kid in the eye and tell that kid,
"You're out-of-county; can't help you." That's a moral
issue for me, not money.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it's a taxpayer's
issue for me.
MS. HARRIS: I understand that
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I -- if we can --
if it doesn't cost Kerr County taxpayers any money to help
those kids, I have no problem with doing it, but I can't go
along with spending tax dollars to help kids from E1 Yaso.
El Paso should be helping those kids. And if they're not
willing to pay the costs that it costs Kerr County to house
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those kids, that's an E1 Paso moral problem to me, not a
Kerr County moral problem. You know, that's just -- that's
the way I look at it. 7 mean, it's that simple.
MS. HARRIS: We can argue this all day long.
We can discuss this all day long. We discussed this back in
the fall. Everybody agreed that we were going to take this
facility and we were going to run with it, and we were going
to do the best that we possibly could with it. I did not
start marketing for placement until February, whenever it
was decided that the County was going to take over. I've
doubled that population in four months, and it's because
I've had -- I've taken out-of-county kids. And, yes, it
costs more to do programming for those juveniles and offer
the programs in order to get kids in here, to get revenue in
here. The facility was already in debt, in bad shape when I
got here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MS. HARRIS: I inherited this.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand that. You
know, what I'm saying is that -- and I -- somewhere maybe I
misread the numbers, but the goal in my mind was to fill it
up with out-of-county kids to help defray the cost. From
what I'm hearing today, for every kid we bring in from
outside of Kerr County, it's costing us more money than the
-- and we're losing more, and it's just not -- it's -- I
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mean, we're losing more money for every kid. So if we, you
know, staff it -- we end up filling it up, we're going to
end up losing a bunch more money at a full facility than we
are one that's half full. That doesn't make sense. I mean,
I can't -- I can't go alonq with doing that to help kids
that aren't from this county. Now, if we can, you know,
break even on those other counties and it helps carry the
kids from Kerr County along a little bit, then I`m all in
favor of it.
MS. HARRIS: You might could raise the per
diem this next -- next contract go-around. You might could
raise the per diem on what they call the Classification 5
kids. Because the reimbursement that T.J.P.C. gives
counties to place Level 5 kids, they get $105 a day, per
diem, for that. Most of Bexar County kids, E1 Paso kids,
and Tarrant County kids are Level 5 kids. So if you want to
discuss and look at charging the maximum amount that's
allowed by the state reimbursement to those counties for
Level 5 kids, we can certainly look at that. The average
per diem rate across the state across the board is $SS a
day, and we're at $83. I mean, mine is a marketing issue.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's it cost a kid --
per kid?
MS. HARRIS: Last month I figured it up with
the average population that we had. It cost $146 a day
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across the board, pre's and posts, 'cause we're charging the
same for pre's and posts.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's operating
costs only? Doesn't include the debt service?
MS. HARRIS: No, because the debt service is
coming out of your ad valorem tax. Is that not correct?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What was the number?
MS. HARRIS: 146.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 146. And we're
charging?
MS. HARRIS: 83. That's $63 a day you're
going in the hole.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On that point, I'd
like to ask Kevin Stanton a question, if you don't mind.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kevin, we have kids
out of county or kids in other facilities; is that correct?
MR. STANTON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And if the state
average reimbursement is 85, --
MR. STANTON; Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- I guess, what are
we paying per day? I guess that's what I want to ask. I
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want to ask two questions. What are we paying per day for
each of our kids placed outside of Kerr County? And, if you
know, what would be the average cost to keep that kid per
day that somebody's picking up the tab for?
MR. STANTON: It depends -- it depends on
what level they are when we place them. Anywhere -- it's
anywhere from $8U to about $84 a day, is what most of our
contracts equal out to. And that's what we're paying here
in Kerr County to place kids at the facility also.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, we've got how
many kids placed out now?
MR. STANTON: Right now, currently outside of
Kerr County, we have four.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Four?
MR. STANTON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is it a reasonable
assumption that they're being taken care of for $HS? Or
that there is some subsidy someplace, or do you know?
MR. STANTON: A11 I know is that -- that
that's the contract rate that we agreed to with the
providers when we entered into the contracts, so I'm
assuming, from going and checking on the facilities and
everything, that they're providing what they -- they say
they're providing for us at that rate.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would their staffing
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ratios at these facilities be the same as ours, or
different? Would their --
MR. STANTON: It depends on if it's a secure
facility or nonsecure facility. Nonsecure facilities, the
staffing ratio is less than the secure facilities.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is -- Kevin, I don't
know -- or Becky, either one. Is -- our facility is
classified as secure, correct?
MS. HARRIS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, in a secure facility,
is there any way of finding out what another faci]ity's cost
is?
JUDGE TINLEY: What their cost --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cost. In other words, if
our kids -- if we have a -- one of those four, say he's in a
secure facility in Hays County. Is Hays County subsidizing
that kid?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's kind of what 7
was trying to ask.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Is that kid
costing $84? I mean, our contrar_t says $84. Are they able
to provide that service for $89? Or is that service costing
them $190 and they're subsidizing, you know, whatever that
difference is?
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MS. HARRIS: Well, their programs are
different, and there goes -- therein lies a cost difference
in how much it costs to operate that facility, because the
programs are totally different. Hays County is a boot camp.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I'm not -- what I'm
trying to say is that I know -- I mean, I'm not trying to
pick on Hays County facility. Are other counties -- what
should it be costing for a like facility? It seems to me
that there's no facility anywhere in the state that's going
to take any kids if they're not at least breaking even. You
know, I don't see how -- you can't operate -- no facility
can operate long. We found out that we could not operate
that way either.
JUDGE TINLEY: Hood County did, didn't they?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean, either
they're -- some of the facilities that are taking kids are
-- have figured out a way to only use those programs they
make money at, or they're running the facility at a whole
lot less cost, because I just cannot imagine that there are
any facilities in the state going to take kids and lose
money over a long term.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Except us.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask a question,
and it's probably going to appear the dumbest question of
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the year, but this is -- I guess they allow me one boy-dummy
question a year, and this is it. What if we dropped our
substance abuse program, we dropped our sexual program and
whatever else program, and -- and didn't deal with the
psychiatrists and all those things that we deal with, and we
just -- we had a juvenile jail. We didn't treat people; we
just kept them there and did the basic things that the State
tells us to do. What would that do?
MS. HARRIS: Well, as of today --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The cost per day.
MS. HARRIS: Well, as of today, you'd lose 21
kids, so you would reduce the postadjudication population to
one. And T.J.P.C. requires that you have to provide -- for
postadjudication kids, that you have to provide programming
that includes life skills, coping skills, anger management.
We have to provide an education, of course. Their academic
education doesn't cost us anything, 'cause K.I.S.D. provides
that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm
MS. HARRIS: You have to offer chemical
dependency education. Not treatment, but education. So,
you have to have people that are versed in that in order to
offer those required minimum programming far the kids, and
every facility in the state has to offer that on the
lock-down secure facilities. So, you would -- you would not
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have to have an L.P.C. or an L.C.D.C. You would have to
have a -- I would think a Bachelor-degreed person in a
behavioral science, and -- in psychology, perhaps, that
could handle the coping skills and anger management and
chemical education classes for the kids.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Becky, our proposed
$2.6 million operating budget, what level of population is
that based on?
MS. HARRIS: 76.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's based on
having 76?
MS. HARRIS: That's fully staffed, both
buildings, for --
COMMISSIONEF. NICHOLSON: 75 employees?
MS. HARRIS: No. That's based on --
JUDGE TINLEY: Residents.
MS. HARRIS: That's based on staffing both
buildings to take care of 76 kids.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. Now, see, I
don't -- I've heard a couple times today that we talked
about the economics of this; that the debt that we incurred
to purchase it is not -- not being considered. Facts are, a
year or so ago we didn't own that facility, and now we do
own it. And -- but we've got a $2.E million operating
budget, and a $472,000 annual debt service budget, so a year
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ago we didn't have a $3,072,000 cost, and now we do.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We -- I mean, the revenue
goes --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Revenue --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- comes off that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I take revenue off
that, and that surprises me, 'cause I don't think we talked
about these kind of numbers. At 72, we're still going to
lose $575,000 a year.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on how many?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 76 -- the number I
wrote down is 72. I don't know.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS; 76.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What revenue are we
expecting for 2005-2006? They're looking at stuff I don't
have.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On 76 beds, both
facilities, the revenue is estimated at 2.48, say 2.5.
Expenses were estimated at 2.603.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, our best case
for next year --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 5122,000 plus the
debt service that's being paid.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And debt service is
$575,000. Maybe "lose" is a business term. That's going to
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cost us $575,000 that we weren't being charged for a year
ago.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you fill it up and
keep it full --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- year-round.
JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Harris, what kind of
reaction do you think you might receive if you were to
contact all the postadjudicated placement counties and
suggest to them that it's necessary that we have a new
contract, and that that new contract float -- ride, as it
were -- with the level of reimbursement, depending upon the
classification?
MS. HARRIS: I think, based on what we've
done at the facility at this point in time, the reputation
of the facility is really, really good. We're now getting
referrals, word of mouth. I think we might -- I think we
might get, "Okay, are we still going to get the same level
of service?" Yes, you're sti1L going to get the same level
of service. I think that it might fly. So, if I'm
understanding you, that -- like, for the Level 5 kids, we'd
charge the maximum $105 a day, 'cause that's what they're
going to get back from the State; it's not coming out of
pocket for them. And for what we used to call Level 4 kids,
I think that rate's $80 a day now, isn't it? For the old
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Level 4 kids? Isn't that $80 a day?
MR. STANTON: Yes, ma'am.
MS. HARRIS: So the 83, we'd be charging more
than what they get, but the level of service that they get
from us would certainly be worth, I would think, that extra
$3.
JUDGE TINLEY: What portion of the
postadjudication residents do you see would fall within the
increased Level 5 reimbursement rate? Percentage-wise or --
MS. HARRIS: Do you want me to count on what
my projection I think is going to be from the larger
counties that send us Level 5?
JUDGE TINLEY: Whatever -- whatever
reasonable expectations are. I hear what you're saying.
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: What you're saying is, I was
brought in to do a job; post, pre, the whole thing, and I'm
knocking myself out to do the job I was hired to do. The
wheels fell off. We got the wheels back on it, but we've
only had the wheels back on it for four months, so give me a
chance here. But I think you see, the reality of the
numbers are that if the citizens of Kerr County are being
asked to subsidize other counties, in essence, because the
pro rata share of the cost to house and program a child here
is greater -- and it's on the back of Kerr County
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taxpayers -- than what they're paying, the local taxpayers
say, "We don't think this is right." I'm trying to find a
way that we can get this thing on a reasonable basis and a
rational basis to these other counties that you're getting a
whole lot more than you're paying for; therefore, what's
reasonable is for you to pay for what you're getting.
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: Now, I realize we may have
some contract issues here, and they could probably insist,
"Well, I've got a contract that runs until September."
And --
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: But we've got a quality of
programming issue that I think we're in a position to sell.
And I think, as you indicated, the reputation is we're back
on top.
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm.
DODGE TINLEY; But of these postadjudicated
kids, what portion of those would fall under the Level 5 new
funding?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it a question, or is
it --
MR. EMERSON: Well, it's a comment. I hate
to throw another carrot in the pot, and Becky and Kevin can
probably clarify this, but from dealing with kids in other
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counties when I used to work with the 198th kids all the
time, I know that the Level 5 money has somewhat of a short
tenure, and it runs out annually before the end of the year.
MS. HARRIS: Usually runs out about March.
MR. EMERSON: So you can't count on the Level
5 money all year long.
DODGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, you got to factor
that into it, then.
MR. STANTON: Just so the Court knows -- and
I think if there's any way we can keep the facility open, I
think we need to, but the Level 5 money that we're all
talking about, what in effect would happen with an increase
in the rates to $105 a day is that -- just speaking from the
Probation Department's standpoint, is we could pay that $105
a day at the contract rate. The problem is -- is when we
contract with T. J.P.C. to get that money back, it's going to
dry up that money that T.J.P.C, has even faster. We
contacted T.J.P.C. day before yesterday to get Level 5
funding for another young man that we were getting ready to
place, and that money's already gone for the year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What happens when it's
gone? What's the County do?
MS. HARP.IS: Some counties know that it's
going to be -- that it always runs out before the end of the
fiscal year, and some counties budget enough money to
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subsidize the end of the fiscal year when the Level 5 money
runs out, and some counties don't. And when the counties
run out of that Level 5 funding, they pull the kid. They'll
pull the kid out of the facility because their money's run
out.
JUDGE TINLEY: See where I'm going?
MS. HARRIS: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: And that may be some of the
numbers you want to try and factor into what Commissioner
Letz was asking for.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It just seems like I'm
missing -- there's a piece of the puzzle that I'm missing
somewhere. I just don't understand why it costs our
facility $140 a kid. You know, I know I averaged a little
bit. Say, whatever it is, about $140 a kid, the State's --
you know, and there's other facilities that -- where kids
are going around the state. The State's reimbursing at a
less -- amount less than that. We all know that. I'm
confused that these other counties -- either all the other
facilities are running a whole lot more efficiently at a
lower cost than us, or they're paying other counties more,
or those counties are subsidizing the rest of the state like
we are currently. And I can't imagine that any of those are
-- are happening. I mean, I can't imagine that other
counties are subsidizing other counties, so it's either that
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they're running a lot more efficiently in other buildings
than we are, or counties are willing to pay that -- the
difference between the actual cost and what the State's
reimbursing. I mean --
MS. HARRIS: It's a combination of two of
your three. Some of -- some counties will get their
reimbursements from T.J.P.C., and if they send that -- let's
say $80. They're getting $80 from T.J.P.C. for that child,
and the facility is charginq $90. There are some counties
that will qo ahead and send that kid there for $90 a day,
and they will budget that extra $10 a day in their budget.
There are some counties that do that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MS. HARRIS: There are -- the majority of the
facilities -- juvenile facilities, it's not a money-making
deal. That's why the private companies have bailed out
big-time, and it is because of the stringent standards,
staffing -- the extra staffing that we have to have, the
required programming that we have to offer, and we have to
have qualified people in order to do that. It's an
expensive business, and there are facilities just like us
that are running in the red.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Who owns them?
MS. HARRIS: The counties.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So the counties -- and
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they are housing out-of-county kids?
MS. HARRIS: Hays County`s fixing to take it
on. That's one of the reasons why Tom Green County has done
what they've done.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- you know, I --
MS. HARRIS: It's a trend across the state,
Commissioner. And I know that it's a hard pill to swallow
and it's kind of hard to understand, but that's -- that's
the juvenile world.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I understand that,
but I just don't understand -- I mean, I understand that it
costs more, but what I don't understand is why El Paso and
Cameron County aren't willing to pay us -- we're not talking
$90; we're talking $140 before we're ready to start breaking
even.
MS. HARRIS: They're not going to pay
anything more than what they're going to get reimbursed from
the State. Onless they --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Then they're not goinq to
get facilities anywhere in the state to do it. I mean,
that's the only -- I mean, lonq-term. Short-term, someone
can run in the red. Long-term, a facility can't run in the
red, so there will be no facility -- I mean, Hays County may
be opening one, but they're going to come to the same
realization we have, that you can't do it. You know, if the
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reimbursement rate or the -- I don't care what the
reimbursement rate is; if the counties putting kids there
aren't willing to pay the cost, you can't do it. Just like
Rusty at the jail. You know, we're not going to house
Gillespie or, you know, Tom Green County inmates for $20 a
day. We're just not going to do it, because we'd be losing
$20 a day. And it's the same -- I don't know see how
juveniles is any different.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER; Only other thing you
have to look at costs in Kerr County is, for the juvenile,
you're looking at running two facilities, two buildings.
That doubles everything.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're discussing 140
right now just to run one.
MS. HARRIS: Right. Now, remember, that 140
that I quoted you was what it cost for the month of May.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MS. HARRIS: The more kids you get, that cost
goes down.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The number that I want is
what it costs per day if that facility is full.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You could get that
by dividing 76 kids into $2.6 million.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The 76 is using both
facilities. I'm not worried about the --
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Divide 48 into that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 48 into whatever the --
you know, I need to know what it costs to -- I'm not using a
calculator.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think I may be able to shed
some more light on it. The question that you have is, why
in the world would counties continue to do this if it were
costing them money to do it? Some of them are not
continuing to do it, evidence Hays County and Hood County.
There are -- there's another group of detention facilities
in this state, and the Auditor reported this to us; I think
there are 11 or 12 different facilities, number one, that
were built with state bond money.
MS. HARRIS: There's 12.
JUDGE TINLEY: So they don't have -- they
don't have that difficulty to contend with.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not talking -- we
have no debt -- we have no debt figured in our numbers yet.
JUDGE TINLEY: In addition, as the Auditor
reported to us, some, if not all, of those state-bonded
facilities receive annually from the State of Texas an
operational supplement, and that may be the cushion that
makes up the difference. I don't have any specifics on
that; I'm recalling what the Auditor told us. Do you have
any more specific information on that at this point,
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Ms. Harris?
MS. HARRIS: No. I know that the facilities
that were built with that bond money, whenever the
reimbursement dried up, when they're no longer getting
reimbursement, then they're feeling the crunch that you're
feeling right now. They're starting to feel that crunch,
where in the beginning when those facilities were built,
that was not the case, 'cause they were getting state
supplement money, where other facilities that were not built
with that bond money -- case in point; this facility was not
built with that State-issued bond money, hence Recor went
belly-up.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, the
economics seem to be that if you -- you can save money by
closing down the facility, eating the debt service cost, and
sending all our kids out of county, and pay -- you can do
that by paying the extra 50,000 or 60,000 a year the Sheriff
says he'd have to spend by hauling kids back and forth.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The answer to your
question earlier, based on 98 residents, one building, and
the numbers in Ms, Harris' budget of expenditures of 2.195,
if you extrapolate that out over -- divide by 48 over 360,
you're getting $125 per diem.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 125 is what, if it was
full, it would cost?
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Per diem.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on -- based on
the configuration of programming, right, whatever that is
today, and the associated costs with the programs that Kerr
County has offered juveniles.
MS. HARRIS: So, the answer to Commissioner
Baldwin's question is -- if Commissioner Baldwin is talking
about making it just general corrections and no specialized
treatment, yeah, you're going to reduce that operating
expenditure.
JUDGE TINLEY: If you take your 2.6, and on
the level of 76, and run that down on a -- on a per diem
basis, it comes down to about 93.75.
MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. The more kids you get
in there, it costs you less to run it. That's why the
deficit on 76 is less than 48.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure.
MS. HARRIS: Because you're not putting a
whole duplicate staff over in that other building.
JUDGE TINLEY: And your other staff people
are spread over a wider base.
MS. HARRIS: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. Your
deficit's lower.
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MS. HARRIS: Right. Well, here's the
problem. I need to know what direction you're going to go
in. We've been down this road for a year, and there's 40 --
38 Kerr County taxpayers out there and their families that
need to know what you want to do so we'll know what to do.
'Cause they got to make plans. And I need to know what
direction you want to go in, because we're coming -- we're
coming down to the wire at the end of the fiscal year. If
we're going to renew contracts, we got to start sending them
out and giving the counties a heads-up if you're going to go
up on your per diem. If you're going to dissolve the whole
thing, then we need to know. 'Cause if I go back to
teaching school, I got to find a job right now, because
that's when they're hiring teachers.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a discussion I
think the Court's going to have to undertake on a regular
agenda.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. We can't make a
decision on that today.
MS. HARRIS: Well, I've gotten two phone
calls today from El Paso wanting to know what I think about
the kid that they want to send us, and I haven't returned
their phone calls. If you don't want me to take any more
out-of-county kids, no more postadjudication kids, I need to
know.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, can we bring
that item up on the two contracts now?
JUDGE TINLEY: Let me go ahead and call Item
17 on the agenda.
MS. HARRIS: Those are the ones -- the new
ones with the added change that Rex wanted me to add.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Item 17, discuss
approval of placement contracts with El Paso County and
Cameron County and authorize County Judge to sign same.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second.
JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for
approval of -- both contracts?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any question or
discussion? All in favor of that motion, signify by raising
your right hand.
(Commissioners Letz, Williams, and Nicholson
voted in favor of the motion.)
JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign.
(Commissioner Letz voted against the motion.)
JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry.
MS. HARRIS: The two that have the tabs are
the two original signature contracts.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you want me to sign
them?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure.
COMMISSIONER
cancellation clause on that
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
September, is that not?
MS. HARRIS:
COMMISSIONER
balance of the fiscal year.
MS. ALFORD:
MS. HARRIS:
You've already got Cameron'
MS. ALFORD:
MS. HARRIS:
NICHOLSON: What's the
say?
LETZ: 30 days.
WILLIAMS: That's until
Yes.
WILLIAMS: So, this is the
That's only E1 Paso there?
No, he already has Cameron's.
s.
Right, but he hasn't signed it.
I don't know. I don't believe
so.
JUDGE TINLEY: No, I know I haven't.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, back to one of
Letz' thoughts earlier. It amazes me that Cameron County,
Harris County, Bexar County, E1 Paso County, or whatever
counties there are out there -- those are huge counties.
Why in the hell don't they build their own facility? I
don't get that. Why are they sending kids --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe they know
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something we should know.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think they do.
Well, they found someone up here that will take care of
their kids and pay for it, is what they've found.
MS. HARRIS: I can answer that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On that topic, Kevin,
Commissioner Letz and I both are trying to draw down -- and
only with respect to Kerr County placements, okay? We know
what our contract says, but somehow I'd like to find out
what is the actual per diem cost to house that young person
in that particular county, wherever it is. I'd like to know
that.
MR. STANTON: Okay, I'll get that for you.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And just a -- kind of a
general comment. I mean, the numbers show that if we can --
it's going to cost, if both sides are full, about $94 per
day. If we can get reimbursement at that rate, I'm for
filling it up. But we can't subsidize. And I know -- I
mean, it may be, you know, a slight variance off of that
number, because you don't know budget numbers -- our budget
numbers.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Again, your -- the
$94 a day would cover operating costs, not debt service.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But, you know, I
also think that there is some -- if everything I'm hearing
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is correct, and I have no reason to believe that it isn't,
the State's got -- some changes have to be made in the
juvenile funding mechanism in the state in the next couple
of years. So, if we can -- you know, I don't mind gambling
a little bit for a couple of years ii we're not losing a
whole bunch, but it's got to be close to the $99 a day that
we're spending, versus the $196 a day that it's costing
right now.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: See, Commissioner,
I'm thinking we've already gambled. It's my recollection
that when we voted on whether or not to pay off that
indebtedness about three different times -- 1.5, 1.9,
5 million, whatever -- that the numbers that were developed
said that if we -- if they -- if we didn't do that and they
shut down, that it would cost us $50,000 to $60,000 a year
to transport children. If we bought it, we would lose 1.5,
1.9 payout; I don't remember which. We would lose, on some
sort of an estimated population, 200,000 to 220,000 a year,
and that included debt service. And now I'm looking at
$575,000.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: See, my recollection was
that the cost to transport and that whole bit was about
200,000 a year, not 50,000.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what he said.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I believe
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that we were told.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That was pre's also, if
you -- as soon as you picked one up off the street, you had
to haul them to another county.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. That's the
number I recall.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was additional cost of
about 200,000. And the 122 that you -- that we were talking
to here, we were better off by having a facility. If we can
keep it full, you know. And that's still, you know, what
we're -- I'm hoping we can get.
JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have any more items --
any more consideration to be given to any items on the
regular Commissioners Court agenda today? Do we have any
further discussion on the workshop posted agenda item?
Hearing nothing further, we will be adjourned.
(Commissioners Court meeting and workshop
adjourned at 3:20 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 24th day of June, 2005.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
B Y : __ ~ ~b~!iy,L,~ _ ______ __ __
Kathy nik, Deputy^County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
6-14-OS
ORDER N0.29215
PLACEMENT CONTRACT FOR
JUVENILE DETENTION FACILITY
On this the 14`h day of June 2005, upon motion made by Commissioner Baldwin,
seconded by Commissioner Williams, the Court approved by a vote of 3-1-Q the
placement contract with El Paso County and Cameron County and authorize the County
Judge to sign same for the Juvenile Detention Faoility.