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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Workshop
Tuesday, July 12, 2005
1:30 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas

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PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4
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I N D E X
July 12, 2005
PAGE
* Floodplain presentation by Mike Howard of
Texas Department of Transportation 3
* OSSF Workshop presented by Miguel Arreola,
Manager, Environmental Health Department 48
Adjourned 106
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On Tuesday, July 12, 2005, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop of
the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville,
Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Let's come to order, if we
might, for the posted Commissioners Court workshop on
floodplain presentation by Mr. Mike Howard of the Texas
Department of Transportation. And the second item that
we'll get to later is an O.S.S.F. workshop. Where's
Mr. Coward? Mr. Coward? Mr. Coward's rep?
MR. ODOM: Mr. Howard.
MS. HARDIN: There's -- there is a mistake on
there, but it's not the spelling of his name.
MR. ODOM: Mr. Howard is -- is regional
director for FEMA, and he works with T.C.E.Q. We were under
the impression it was Texas Department of Public Safety, but
it is under the Texas -- Texas Commission on Environmental
Quality, and he is on floodplain.
MR. HOWARD: And I'll explain a little bit,
Judge, Commissioners. Appreciate the opportunity to come
down. I've got a Power Point I'd like to run through for
y'all. This is going to be -- it's not a very long Power
Point, but it kind of looks at the program holistically on a
few slides; then we'll get down really to the business of
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Kerr County, so if you'll indulge me on that. The -- as he
said, Commission on Environmental Quality is the state
coordinating agency for the program. Prior to that,
Prior to that, Water Commission,
Department of Water Resource, Water Development Board. It
just followed that chain over the years, but Chapter 16 --
316 of the Water Code is the one that designates us as such.
This program actually started back in 1968.
Obviously, the intent was to reduce expenditures. There
were attempts back in the '40's, I'm told, for private
insurance to try to provide flood insurance to individuals.
The problem was, somebody's house would wash away, they'd
get a check for $50,000, rebuild in the same place, house
would wash away again. That's not good business, so you're
not going stay in the insurance business long. So the
federal government, unfortunately, had to get involved in
this. And, really, what this is, it's a trade-off. It's an
agreement between the local community and the federal
government. In trade for the federal government providing
insurance to anybody within the unincorporated portion of
Kerr County, Kerr County agrees to do certain things;
basically, review development within the floodplain. In
Texas right now, we've got cities and counties, districts --
probably 1,43, by my last count. 1,104 of those cities and
counties and districts participate in this program. So,
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we've got a tremendous number -- tremendous number in the
state of Texas that are -- that are doing this. As I said,
it's a voluntary program based on a mutual agreement between
the local government and the federal government.
I do want to point out a couple legislative
changes that we had. In 1998, we had three presidential
declarations. We had Tropical Storm Charlie, which flooded
Del Rio. Right after that, we had another one over --
settled over the Houston area, flooded those folks. And
then we had what's known as the South Texas -- or the
November floods, where we had about 40 counties involved.
Nearly all of those counties and cities participated in the
National Flood Insurance Program, and a lot of the people
who were affected already had flood insurance, but those
people who didn't, they had two options they could do. They
could either apply for a grant or a loan, depending on their
income status. One of the conditions of getting a grant or
a loan is that you're going to buy flood insurance right off
the top with some of that money, because the federal
government wants -- wants to make sure that whatever you're
doing is going to be insured. We had a few cities, a few
counties up here that didn't have this, and their people
could go -- they'd make application through small business
to get a loan, and they were turned down because flood
insurance wasn't available.
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Going back to a previous slide, it's an
government. In making the insurance available, those
communities that had not taken that step to make insurance
available to their citizens, they had a choice. They could
either join the program then, which all of them did, and
make that insurance available retroactively to those people
so they could get the loan and the grants, or not. But Mary
Denny out of Denton, Texas, during the following legislative
session, she felt that everybody in the state of Texas
should have the opportunity to be able to buy flood
insurance, and so this was the exact wording on the bill
that now appears in the Texas Water Code. "Every city and
county shall adopt the necessary ordinances or orders as
appropriate to be eligible to participate." FEMA has to
accept you into this program. Federal government has to
accept you into it. But what they're saying in this piece
of legislation -- and there is no enforcement on this, I'd
point out, but this piece of legislation was to make
everybody at least have the opportunity to have flood
insurance within their city or county.
We also had, during the next session, Senator
Ken Armbrister also; his area down in Victoria was heavily
affected	by this.	He	was concerned	maybe we	weren't doing
enough in	the arena	of	response and	recovery	mitigation and
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floodplain management, so a committee was put together,
divided really into those three parts. And on the
floodplain management side, which we were concerned about,
The most important thing that we saw was many of our
counties, when we spoke with the attorneys, would tell us
that unless it was specifically stated in state law, they
could not do certain things. They could not enforce. They
could not issue permits and get a fee for it. They could
not exceed the FEMA minimum requirements. We didn't feel
that was right, so what we did, we worked very closely with
his office to make sure that this was not a mandate, but the
term I like to use is "taking the handcuffs off," to allow
our counties and all our political subdivisions to be able
to, as you see up here, collect fees, enforce their
ordinances or court orders, and exceed the FEMA minimum
requirements. FEMA has some programs which I'll talk about
in a minute which are really for those communities who want
to exceed the minimum. There's programs out there that will
reward your citizens in not paying so high of flood
insurance premiums.
Let's get down to Kerr County now. This is
just some basic information on what's going on with Kerr
County right now. Y'all have been in for a long time, going
back to '75 when y'all first got in, sadly. You got your
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first map back in '77, and the current map you're operating
under is 2000. We'll talk about mapping in a little bit; I
don't want to get sidetracked here. There's some things
going on with mapping we're going to talk about. As far as
the insurance goes, I pulled this off of the FEMA web site.
I won't read the slide to you, but you can see you've got a
lot of people in the county. Now, bear in mind, this is
just Kerr County unincorporated; this has nothing to do with
the city. The amount of insurance that you got in force,
the 52 million over there, obviously, is the coverage.
Excuse me. Your losses, and then repetitive losses. FEMA
measures everything by what they call repetitive losses. It
says two or more losses within a 10-year period. Those
properties concern FEMA, 'cause those are the ones that are
really pulling the funds out of this program.
You cannot be canceled. If have you a flood
insurance policy and your house gets wiped away and you
rebuild it with the policy and it gets wiped away the next
year, you can't be canceled like you can in homeowner's,
auto, anything like that. That's yours for life. As long
as that house is built compliant, that is yours for life.
So, those properties out there that have these continuing
losses, FEMA's very concerned about that. You're fortunate;
you've only got 10. I will tell you that Texas leads the
nation in the number of repetitive losses, sadly. We have
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more losses than anybody else in the nation when it gets to
FEMA's working
Normally, what happens on these, if you've got a $100,000
home, they'll have a $15,000 claim, and then they'll have
another $15,000 claim and so on and so forth. Those are the
ones that are really pulling this -- this program down right
now. You only have 10, not a whole lot to worry about.
Let's talk a little bit about what the
County's responsibilities are. Basically, anybody who wants
to develop in Kerr County, you need to find out first if
they're in the floodplain or not, and that's where Truby and
her -- her folks are going to be involved. Will this
adversely affect other folks? This is the main complaint
that Heidi and I get. I -- forgive me, Heidi Carlin also
works with me, back here in the back. The main complaint we
get is, "My neighbor has done something to push water onto
me," so we -- we ask the counties, we ask the cities to take
a look at that. Not saying don't do it. I mean, if it
complies with all -- all the requirements that you have in
your court orders, there's not a whole lot we can do. Then
you get	into	civil	issues. But the	main	thing	is to try	to
look at	this,	and	-- and most folks	want	to be	neighbors,	I
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found out. I was deputy Watermaster down here for a long
time, and that's usually what I found out; most folks want
to do what's right.
But trying to find out, you know, what is
going to be the effect of this? Are other permits needed
from the County? The State? Do we need a water right
permit? If somebody's going to build a dam out here and
they're going to impound 15 acre feet, but they're going to
irrigate out of it, they might need a permit for that. They
might need a water right permit. There's lots of things,
other permits, Parks and Wildlife and so on. And that's one
of the things that we try to provide in the training, and
that's one of the things going to be coming up this year at
the state conference in Austin. That's what this is going
to be geared towards, is other permits, because we're
finding we don't have a whole lot of knowledge at the local
level on that, and we need to really work on that.
Most of this deals with structures. Most of
these programs deal with structures. If we're going to have
somebody build in the floodplain, can they do it? Yes or
no? If your court order says they can, and the FEMA minimum
requirements does allow it, they can do it. But what they
have to do is elevate that first floor up to the 100-year
flood elevation, If it's a nonresidential commercial site,
they can actually floodproof it. If they want to build a
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wall around it, build a berm, whatever, and protect it up to
the 100-year flood, they can do it. The only catch is on
that, on the floodproofing certificate, it has to be signed
and sealed by a registered professional engineer.
JUDGE TINLEY: How common is that?
MR. HOWARD: How common is that on the
commercial? Judge, I'm going to say very uncommon. We saw
a little bit in the city of Austin. There's a video out
right now called "Flood Alley" that was prepared and deals
with some of the stuff in Austin, and some of the people
down there on Shoal Creek have done it. Those are about the
only ones. When I come out and visit with folks, most
people elevate. Most people elevate. There's a lot of
floodproofing, though, that can be done. I had the
opportunity to go up into Wisconsin earlier this year for
a -- for a national conference, and took a tour of a town
that had this old historic district, but it was right there
on the creek, and had flooded time and time and time again.
Well, what they did, they elevated the interior. They left
the exterior so it would stay the same, but they elevated
the interior and they floodproofed it. They just put a --
they just had doors they could close that sealed everything
off. So, there's ways you can do it. There's ways you can
do it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: On here, it -- if you go
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back -- or you don't have to go back to it, but my question,
I guess, this says you can elevate 1 foot above.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: At least.
MR. HOWARD: At least to the base flood
elevation.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I always think of it
as 1 foot above.
MR. HOWARD: Do y'all require 1 foot above?
MS. HARDIN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where is that? When you
say 1 foot above, where is that?
MR. HOWARD: It's in the court order. Shoulc
be in Article 5.
MS. HARDIN: Where?
MR. ODOM: Franklin Johnston did that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right, he did.
MR. ODOM: Couple years ago, when y'all sent
him there and he came back, and you did have it at the base
flood, but he suggested going to 1 foot, and the Court
accepted that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I believe the
Court -- there was a court order saying that.
MR. ODOM: That's right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess what I'm getting
at, we have a real -- just an aside quickly -- we have a
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real problem keeping track of court orders in this county.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it -- is it in our --
MS. HARDIN: It's not in that book. It's not
in that book.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it's not, if someone
can't find it, I don't see how we can ever enforce it --
MS. HARDIN: We have a copy.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- with the public.
MR. ODOM: That is '92. What you're looking
at is 1992.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to get --
MS. HARDIN: There's been several since then.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're updated with all
that stuff, so we have one document that we can hand to the
public so they're aware what they have to do in the
floodplain.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I would want to
rethink why we require something more stringent than the
state or federal laws require. There may be a good reason
for it. I'm not sure what it is.
MR. ODOM: The higher you are above that
flood, the cheaper your insurance, so that's one thing that
people don't know. But when we talk to them, that's one
thing, first of all, is get out of the A or the AE; get into
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Zone X.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let the owner make
that decision.
MR. ODOM: I'm going to give you the
information to do that, but I can tell you that the base
flood elevation -- that, you know, it's very questionable.
If you see a 20-foot wall of water coming at you, I'd rather
be at least another foot higher. I'd rather be 6 foot
higher.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, but I think what
Dave's saying, and I agree with him, is that that's not the
county government's responsibility. Our responsibility is
to give them the facts. And so they have a permit; if they
want to build their house in the flood, they get flooded.
MR. ODOM: But they can -- if they have an
engineer -- and we do that. If a man wants to do that,
that's fine. But, again, if you're in the A or AE, your
insurance is going to be high.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A. I mean --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: B.F.E. is a 100-year
storm?
MR. HOWARD: Base flood elevation refers to
the 100-year storm, yes, sir. Now, I want you -- I've been
doing this a long time, and I've worked every disaster, I
guess, that we've had for the last umpteen years. I'm
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seeing more and more structures affected outside the
floodplain. I don't know if we're getting greater storms.
I don't know if it's the increased development upstream. I
tell people the day that map comes out, it's already
out-of-date. I'm going to be honest with you, because you
put in -- if you put in an H.E.B. up here that doesn't do
the full impervious cover thing and keep from having
increased runoff, you've got a problem. And a lot of that's
being done, but not enough. Not enough. I've seen
65 percent -- 65 percent of the structures affected in
Allison were outside the 100-year floodplain. They were in
Zone X, 65 percent of them. Yes, sir?
JUDGE TINLEY: Question back here.
MR. MYERS: Could I ask a question, please?
MR. HOWARD: Certainly.
MR. MYERS: Back up just a little bit.
JUDGE TINLEY: Give us your name.
MR. MYERS: Eddie Myers.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you.
MR. MYERS: I'm a resident here in Kerr
County, and a septic installer also, but I've had a little
experience with floodplain, and I -- I'm wondering about the
rule that used to be, the way I understood it, we have to
prove that whatever we do in that floodplain will not cause
flood waters to be higher.
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MR. HOWARD: What it says -- you're talking
about floodway. There's two different things here, and if
we think of -- of a floodplain, we think of the Guadalupe
River over here; you've got a floodplain. Very large, very
wide.
MR. MYERS: Understood.
MR. HOWARD: But you also have an area in the
center that's going to be referred to as a floodway.
MR. MYERS: Mm-hmm.
MR. HOWARD: The easier way to describe the
floodway is what -- what the model does, the engineering
model. When you start bringing fill in on the side and we
start squeezing that floodplain, --
MR. MYERS: Right.
MR. HOWARD: -- then the resulting effect is
that water increasing, going up 1 foot. That's the
floodway. In that area -- you're exactly correct. In that
area of the floodway, you cannot increase flood heighth at
all with any development.
MR. MYERS: So, what -- where am I missing --
and I may be overlooking part of -- or not have enough
knowledge in this, but how do you build a pad up 1 foot
above the 100-year floodplain if you're not already in the
floodway when we start it?
MR. HOWARD: Say that again, please?
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MR. MYERS: There may be another stage.
There's a regulatory floodway, and then there's a 100-year
floodplain. Am I right?
MR. HOWARD: Mm-hmm.
MR. MYERS: So, where do we permit a pad or a
site work that will build it up a foot above the 100-year
floodplain without working in the floodway to do it?
MR. ODOM: You can be in the A, the unstudied
area. You can't be in the -- you could be in the AE. The
AE, the floodway, is designed with a 1-foot rise in it, so
there -- here you are. Whatever that parameter is floodway.
MR. MYERS: All right, I'm with you.
MR. ODOM: Flood fringe is A. So, you've got
a foot you can build. What you would do is have to have an
engineer design something that would offset anything that
you would put in, say, A.
MR. MYERS: Okay. All right.
MR. ODOM: Then would you fill out letter of
revision to FEMA to give them that data, and that data
allows them, when they flag this thing, that you're all
right. Or if you put it on poles and you have a no-rise,
you could build in the floodway, and an engineer can show a
no-rise.
MR. MYERS: Okay.
MR. ODOM: And we have that in our rules.
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MR. MYERS: But there's a zone between
floodway and the 100-year --
MR. HOWARD: It's all A.
MR. ODOM: It's all A. Anything outside the
floodway is A. Then you hit Zone X, 500.
MR. MYERS: I understand that.
MR. ODOM: And at 500, you're outside --
there are no requirements. There is no minimum
requirements.
MR. HOWARD: Essentially, what the model
shows is we've already determined what the floodway is.
We've already squeezed this hypothetically, and we've put
this fill in, and we've made the water come up 1 foot. So,
in theory, this is all fill out here anyway right now, so if
you want to build a 10-story building there, in theory -- I
mean, in theory, you're going to have no effect, because the
water's already being brought up 1 foot.
MR. MYERS: You understand the gray area that
the homeowners -- in this gray -- in this area on the river.
MR. ODOM: In the A, normally.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hold it, Leonard. Can
you back up? I'm hearing too much terminology I don't
understand.
MR. HOWARD: I understand. I apologize.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Flood fringe -- you know,
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I don't know what all these are.
MR. HOWARD: Perfect.
MS. CARLIN: We can maybe make copies for
everybody, 'cause this is a very good diagram.
MR. HOWARD: Yeah, and I apologize. This is
a very basic talk. I knew I had limited time; I didn't want
to get into a whole lot of floodway, floodplain, no-rise and
all this other stuff. We can do that at another --
JUDGE TINLEY: I apologize.
MR. HOWARD: Not a problem.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That is an area we really
need to spend some time on, considering this is where we get
hit with questions.
MR. HOWARD: That's fine.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need -- I think the
Court needs to understand exactly what people can and can't
do.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I mean, Leonard, I
think, knows, but we need to.
MR. MYERS: We need to know what's usable in
this area.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. HOWARD: The whole thing is usable. The
whole thing. The whole thing is usable.
MR. ODOM: If you --
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: But --
MR. HOWARD: You can build at the bottom of
the river if you want to, if you can get an engineer to say
that there is not going to be any increase in flood heighth.
MR. MYERS: Understood. How often does that
happen?
	MR.	HOWARD:	Hopefully not very often.
	MR.	MYERS:	That was my -- that's my point.
	MR.	HOWARD:	Hopefully not very often.
	MR.	DIGGES:	Outside the floodway, are you
all saying	that you	-- do	you need an engineer in that
instance?	Or you c	an just	fill what you need to get above
the 100-ye	ar floodp	lain?	
	MR.	ODOM:	You're in the A, so you would have
to have an	engineer	to sho	w that either you had a no-rise or
to offset	-- offset	that i	nto the A.
	MR.	DIGGES:	Even outside the floodway?
	MR.	ODOM:	Outside the floodway. When I
speak of t	he flood	fringe,	that's the A.
	MR.	DIGGES:	Okay.
	MR.	ODOM:	Started to correct him when he was
trying to	give him	-- when	he was talking about the fringe,
but there'	s AE and	there's	an A.
	COMM	ISSIONE	R LETZ: What's --
	JUDG	E TINLE	Y: Let me interject here for just
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a moment. Let's try and keep where we just got one person
talking at a time, 'cause we got a reporter here --
MR. ODOM: I'm sorry.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- that's trying to get
everything down, and it really creates havoc for her if we
get everybody in here. But let's just do it in sequence, if
we might, please. Thank you.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can we -- now that I have
this, can I get a definition of AE and X?
MR. HOWARD: You got it. Let's look at the
top one, for instance.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. HOWARD: See where it says "floodplain"?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. HOWARD: That is considered Zone A, or
AE, or a numbered A zone. But anything with an A in it is
the 100-year floodplain.
MR. ODOM: That's right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. HOWARD: And there we've got our -- now,
in theory, where it says flood fringe, in theory, this is
where we have brought this -- this hypothetical fill in, and
when we squeezed this water in, the water surface elevation
began to rise. When it rose 1 foot, that determined what
the floodway was.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. HOWARD: Does that make sense?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Somewhat.
MR. HOWARD: If you just think of a
channel -- if you just think of a channel out here, and we
got a normal floodplain, we're going to start putting fill
in on the sides.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. HOWARD: We're going to start encroaching
into -- this water surface elevation is going to -- going to
go up when we have squeezed it, and when that water surface
elevation goes up 1 foot, whatever is left is the floodway.
MR. ODOM: Is the floodway.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. ODOM: Now, that fill is still over there
-- I won't get into it. That's --
MS. CARLIN: And it's hypothetical. It's
not --
MR. HOWARD: It's totally in theory. It's
totally in theory.
MS. CARLIN: And this is the line -- I'm
Heidi Carlin. So, that's just a hypothetical line for them,
too. That's just a hypothetical line, basically just to
see, okay, how far can we make the water go in before it
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starts rising 1 foot?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I hear "hypothetical
line."
MS. CARLIN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But when a developer
wants to do something, it's not hypothetical. There's a
point they want to do something.
MR. HOWARD: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do they know where
they are if it's hypothetical?
MR. HOWARD: They need to do their own
engineering study.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, if you're
doing a study in the Guadalupe Basin, Guadalupe River -- and
any study has to be about the whole river there. Then
everything upstream --
MR. HOWARD: I'm not an engineer, but I don't
think they would need to, 'cause I know too many studies
that are done just for -- they take the normal stream flow
conditions, superimpose the 100-year flood that has already
been determined, and then add that existing development on
there.
MR. ODOM: You could have an A -- if you had
an AE, say you wanted to build in the AE. You've already
got profiles. FEMA's already done that study, so we would
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go to a profile, and it will give you that elevation.
That's pretty close. Let's say it's an unstudied area.
Yours is studied, so you have a profile on where that
base flood elevation, and you have contours. And part of it
is an estimate of overlaying that onto the U.S.G.S. And
they'll go out and they will shoot elevations, and those
points will determine what you need to do. Then you'll have
marks saying this is a 100-year frequency. Anything above
that is X, and X is subject to 1 to 3 foot. Some of it's
ponding water. Some of it's sloping water. It gets a
little complicated, but you can determine on the ground, and
that's what an engineer or surveyor will do. Based upon
whether it's an unstudied area, they will do a little
approximation, or whether it's a detailed --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my problem coming
in -- we have one up on -- I think everyone in this room, or
everyone from the second row up this way, is familiar with
up in Bumblebee Estates, Bumblebee Creek, where it's an
unstudied area.
MR. ODOM: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a tributary to the
Guadalupe River. And this person added 1 foot of fill, and
we thought he had just, you know, stuck a piece of dynamite
in the middle of the river and blown all kinds of stuff --
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we made him go out and haul dirt out and get his -- the --
you know, haul a miniscule amount of dirt, in my opinion,
and scrape off the site and get the dirt back out of there.
And what I'm hearing now is that little bit of dirt he put
in there made no difference. Or he just could have gone to
an engineer and said, "This isn't affecting the floodway, is
it?" The guy would say no.
MR. HOWARD: The area was unstudied?
MR. ODOM: I'm not quite sure what he's
talking about.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill Vlasek.
MS. HARDIN: He didn't -- there was no dirt
removed, my understanding is. I think -- I think what they
did was a no-rise. I'm not involved in that. That was when
Franklin was here, but --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Didn't we make him move
out dirt?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't think so.
Did we, Dave?
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Nothing's happened
since we talked about it, but the dirt he put in there was
higher than my pickup truck. It wasn't a couple feet of
dirt.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. ODOM: Maybe they went out there, found
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it was --
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let's not go there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, let's go on with
this.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Myers?
MR. MYERS: Thank you. I'd hoped that the
State could offer some clarification. I understand the
Court's -- I think they're asking the same thing. Is the
regulatory floodway a line along the river, or is it a point
of elevation on that river? And if that --
MR. HOWARD: It's both. It's both.
MR. MYERS: Okay.
MR. HOWARD: It's -- we're going downstream.
MR. MYERS: Yes, sir.
MR. HOWARD: It's a width that has been
determined hypothetically. There's a heighth. There's a
heighth.
MR. MYERS: Based on elevation?
MR. HOWARD: Have you ever seen a floodway
map?
MR. MYERS: I've studied a few of them.
MR. HOWARD: I mean a floodway map, not a
floodplain.
MR. MYERS: I've seen where the floodway's
drawn out on a flood map, if that answers your question.
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MR. HOWARD: Yes. The floodway map will give
you elevation. It will also give you the width. It will
also give you in the study -- if you've looked at that, it
will also give you all the pertinent data flows and
everything else within that.
MR. MYERS: Then my question would be this,
and -- and correct me if need be. How do you get a permit
to raise a piece of property above the 100-year floodplain
without working in that floodway?
MR. HOWARD: I have -- I'm sorry, I can't
understand that. There's a floodway and a floodplain. Did
you get a copy of the handout?
MR. MYERS: Yes, sir, I'm clear on that.
MR. HOWARD: Okay. You see the flood fringe?
MR. MYERS: Yes, sir.
MR. HOWARD: And you see the floodway on the
top drawing?
MR. MYERS: Mm-hmm.
MR. HOWARD: If you build in the flood
fringe, the law says that you have to elevate in Kerr County
1 foot above that 100-year flood elevation. If you build in
the floodway, you will have to have an engineering study
that says you cannot affect the flood heighth any. Zero.
MS. HARDIN: No, my last question -- maybe
this will help you understand my question. If I get a
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benchmark and find out that the property -- the elevation
where I want to work is 2 foot below the 100-year floodplain
elevation, where am I in this zone?
MR. HOWARD: Well, it's going to depend.
MS. CARLIN: That depends on whether you --
that makes you go into the floodway or not. Those are
essentially two separate --
MR. MYERS: I'm just looking for that line.
MS. CARLIN: That should be on your map.
MR. HOWARD: Look at the study. Look at the
floodway -- it's called a floodway flood boundary map. It's
not issued with the study. You have to request it
separately, and you have to get the flood insurance rate
map. It's three things that you're going to need if you
really want to do a serious job like it sounds you are. And
it's going to show you exactly where that floodway is on the
floodway flood boundary map.
MR. MYERS: Mm-hmm.
MR. HOWARD: You have my card?
MR. MYERS: No.
MR. HOWARD: Get our cord, and I'll be happy
to discuss this with you at length.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Illustration Number 2
answers the gentleman's question.
MS. HARDIN: If he would come to our office,
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we can explain it better to him. We can show him the maps.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Digges, you had a
question?
MR. DIGGES: No, I have a comment on the
floodway. The floodway, when -- when we, as surveyors, are
asked to go and state where the 100-year floodplain is and
where the floodway line is, we can do the floodplain by an
elevation.
MR. HOWARD: Mm-hmm.
MR. DIGGES: But because this floodway is a
computed amount that gets restricted, it's -- in the
computation, it's an elevation, but it's not an elevation on
the ground. And so the only thing we can do is then do
scaling off the map to then approximate that line on the
ground.
MR. HOWARD: We're getting a whole lot more
detail than I wanted to, but what you can do in that case,
if you have the Guadalupe River over here, all right? The
floodway, in theory -- let's go back to the theory where,
like, on the drawings here, we've squeezed it in on both
sides.
MR. DIGGES: Yes.
MR. HOWARD: But you can also squeeze in from
one side and move that floodway all the way over to the
other side. It's just an area that has to be left open to
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pass the 100-year floodplain. If you look at what the
definition is, it's an area left open to pass the
100-year -- or discharge the 100-year floodplain.
MR. DIGGES: What you're saying is if you did
an engineering study to do that. But us, as surveyors, in
99 percent of the cases when somebody comes in, we're going
to deal with that map that we have in front of us.
MR. HOWARD: What you need to work with as a
surveyor is make sure they elevate the structure 1 foot
above the 100-year floodplain, and if they're in the
floodway, then this office is going to tell them they're
going to have to have an engineering study. Anything else,
gentlemen?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you need a -- you need
a permit if you're going to do anything in the floodplain?
Anywhere in the floodplain?
MR. HOWARD: Yes, sir, a permit is required
under FEMA. And -- and --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But there's not a whole
lot of -- if you're doing it in the flood fringe, not a
whole lot needs to be done, other than the elevation needs
to be raised.
MR. HOWARD: Elevated permit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can add fill in the
flood fringe?
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MR. HOWARD: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Without doing any kind of
engineering study?
MR. HOWARD: Correct.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, as long as you're out
of the floodway, you don't need to do an engineering study?
MR. HOWARD: Correct. Correct.
MR. ODOM: And most maps will tell you, if
you come to the office, overlay Appraisal District with that
land, we can identify it, and then we have A's -- we have
the flood zones there and we'll look at it. And if there's
a question, if we got an AE in there, we need to look at
that to determine how far you're going out in there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What do you do if it's an
unstudied area, there's no maps?
MR. HOWARD: Approximate A zone -- I'm going
to turn to the surveyor. How do y'all do that?
MR. DIGGES: Well, we can overlay it with a
U.S.G.S. map, which isn't very accurate, and then you can
figure out by interpolating the contours, what elevation it
would be out in the field. And then you can shoot both
sides of that creek to see if it's within a certain
tolerance. If it makes good sense, then you can probably go
by that elevation, or you can simply scale it from either
the road down to where the shaded area is, or from the
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center of the creek up to where the shaded area is, or make
a comparison. You know, you -- you do it -- it's pretty
crude.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of surveys done --
MR. ODOM: That's what the law says. They're
the ones that are qualified to do this, either -- either
engineers or surveyors. Or we can do -- you can take an
area -- my terminology can't come to me, but basically we
take an area, and if that flood area has less than 100 acres
in it, we can do an approximation that a study's been done
by Turner, Braden, and Collie, and we can look at it and
say, all right, that stream is there and Charlie can go out
there and shoot that stream. And -- and then an
approximation of where that structure's at, and we say it's
11 feet. It's 11 feet above that. That study was done for
Kerr County, and so he can go out there can shoot it, and he
can shoot a line. That's 11 foot; that's the B.F.E. And we
want to make sure that the finished slab is 1 foot above the
B.F.E. So, that's one way, if its less than 100 acres. We
can do something -- it's an approximation, but that
approximation is scientifically done. It's a study done,
and it's for Kerr County. O.G.R.A. had that done several
years ago, and we do it that way. If it's a larger area,
then, like he says, you can do over -- you can do
approximation. Everything's approximation.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Let's let Mr. Coward move on
here. We got some more --
MR. ODOM: Sure.
MR. HOWARD: Like I say -- by the way, when
I'm talking about residential structures, commercial, I'm
talking about FEMA minimums. I'm talking about federal
minimums. I certainly admire communities that have taken
that extra step, just like I said. A flood doesn't know
where the 100-year floodplain is. Okay, other types of
development -- and I just throw this in here because FEMA
says that development's defined as any manmade change to the
floodplain. So, in theory, gentlemen, levees, fills,
whatever in the floodplain should be reviewed, should be
permitted. Now, in all honesty, though, if somebody's got
2,500 acres out here and puts in a half-acre stock tank, is
that going to change anything? Probably not. It's --
nobody, including myself or FEMA, is ever going to go on
that property to look and see if you got a permit for that.
That's not -- not the intent. But the intent is to try to
regulate development in the floodplain so that it doesn't
affect other people adversely.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, you need a
permit to build a dam in the floodplain?
MR. HOWARD: That's what the rule says.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Who's got the
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authority to enforce that?
MR. HOWARD: The County. That's what I was
talking about earlier, with the passage of that law.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: County has authority
to issue a permit to dam up a stream?
MR. HOWARD: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that what I heard
you say?
MR. HOWARD: Yes. Yeah. If you want to do
any work, any development -- again, FEMA's term -- any
development in the floodplain, it is supposed to be --
supposed to be permitted, including these items right here.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I realized that there
needed to be a permit. I didn't know the County had the
authority to do that.
MR. HOWARD: Right. We do not issue permits
from the state unless it's a water right permit, and that's
a different issue. But what I'm talking about here is
floodplain development permits. Yes, in theory, if you're
going to build a stock tank, you should have a permit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What you're saying is --
is common sense, but do you have any guidance for the Court
that, if we get on the tributaries of the river that are
unstudied areas and somebody wants to go in there and do any
or all of those things, which frequently are done --
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MR. HOWARD: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- and then anybody
downstream gets mad and comes to us and they want to enforce
the law --
MR. HOWARD: Well, and even if you enforce
the law, okay, fine. Somebody wants to straighten out a
channel on their property, and the guy downstream says, "Now
you've flooded me, because you got the water off your
property faster." Okay, you could have permitted that. And
from a floodplain management -- from a FEMA standpoint, you
issued a permit for development of the floodplain. They're
fine with that, so on the floodplain management side, you've
done what you're supposed to. But maybe on the state side,
there might be some state laws that say you needed to get a
permit, Mr. Jones, before you did all this type of work. So
-- so if the County did approve that, yes, you would have
done what you needed to under floodplain management.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. What I'm saying
is, when the County doesn't do it, and we don't -- I don't
think we want to get into these things.
MR. HOWARD: You don't have any choice. I
mean, I'll be honest with you; it's an all or none. It's an
all or none on this program.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can the County pass an
order or put it in our floodplain order that any development
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on a certain size acreage or something, that a permit is not
required? Anything above?
MR. HOWARD: As long as it's in a designated
flood-prone area, it must be permitted. You use common
sense, though. Like I said, go back to -- go back to what I
said about the 2,500-acre ranch, a small little stock tank.
Yes, it should be permitted, but will I ever find out or
find it, or will FEMA? It's not going to be an issue.
We're talking about if he wants to go out there and develop
that thing, then we need to get -- get busy.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We hear complaints
about unpermitted dams, and the real question is, do we want
to? Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The answer
MR. HOWARD: Under this program, you're
supposed to be doing it; I'll tell you that right now. And
how y'all handle that, I don't know. Obviously, if -- if
you don't find out, you don't know. The only time you find
out is when the neighbor downstream or upstream tattles.
And, like I said, I dealt with that with the Watermaster
program in this area; I'm very familiar with it, and
neighbors are always going to tell on neighbors when they do
something.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But is -- by the County
turning a blind eye to these type of things, it's not
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jeopardizing us?
MR. HOWARD: I don't know. I wouldn't say
turning a blind eye. I mean, if you know about it -- if you
know that somebody is over there doing it, then they need to
be sent a letter. They need to be notified, "Yes, you need
to get a permit for this." But what's that -- what's that
going to entail? That's going to entail y'all's office
sitting down with the person, finding out this guy's going
to build a half-acre stock tank in the middle of his big
ranch, and in your opinion, it's not going to have any
effect one way or the other on anybody. You know, it's
going to be an overflow-type structure. You would permit
it, he goes on with his business, and that's all it said.
MS. HARDIN: As long as he doesn't stop the
complete flow of water.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there not an issue
if a -- if somebody dams up a stream for the purposes of --
of building a stock tank --
MR. HOWARD: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- and stops the flow
downstream for somebody else? Is that not an issue?
MR. HOWARD: The current -- well, and it
should be. But as I understand the current read from our
legal folks -- because, here again, like I said, I'm going
to go back to my Watermaster days, 'cause I enforced this
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all the time. We used to require that any inflows had to be
passed downstream. So, in other words, we got a stock tank
here and it's half full. If we've got 2 CFS -- cubic feet
per second -- coming in, we required it to go downstream
some way to satisfy the domestic and livestock users on
downstream. As I understand it now, there is not a
requirement on that, but that's a legal issue. Is our
attorney here?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No.
MR. HOWARD: Not here. That would be a legal
issue, 'cause the Water Code is not clear on that. We -- we
enforced it in the Watermaster program and the Watermaster
area. We did require that. I mean, if you had to pull a
tractor up there and hook up to get after it, but that was
what we required. Outside of that, I don't know. And you
need to probably talk to Al Segovia, the current Watermaster
down in San Antonio, to find out how he's enforcing that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: How far up the
tributaries is the floodplain -- is considered floodplain or
under this authority?
MR. HOWARD: It's going to vary. I mean,
normally they look at a drainage area; they'll look at
5 square miles or less.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So --
MR. HOWARD: If it's a little tributary,
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something like that, it's only going to be part way.
MR. ODOM: Our map will show whatever they've
mapped out, and some of it will be in X. Some of it may be
in A, but that will be closer to the river.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the rule, then, if
it's less than 5 square miles, it's not under the --
MR. HOWARD: I'll doublecheck that.
Normally, it's 5 square miles. They may have changed it to
2. Federal regs are always changing, but I can find out.
MS. CARLIN: For impounding, for example,
you're allowed to impound -- what is it, 2 acres?
MR. HOWARD: 200 acre feet.
MS. CARLIN: 200 acre feet without a permit,
without a state or Texas water permit. So, that might have
answered the gentleman's question.
MR. HOWARD: But, anyway, like I say, yes,
these items right here, they'd need to be reviewed by your
office to determine what the effects are going to be on that
and a permit issued. Recreational vehicles. I think this
area probably has quite a bit of folks that come down from
different parts of the -- the northern -- essentially, what
it says is RV's can be located in a floodplain. A lot of
R.V. parks are. Most of them are, but it has to meet one of
these three criteria: Licensed, road-ready, on site for
less than 180 days, or they can be permitted. And that's
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the rule straight out of the book.
Manufactured homes. And you'll notice,
here's the A -- Al through 30, AH, AE. I mean, this is the
-- this is the thing. Your -- your mobile home parks, a lot
of them are located in the floodplain; have been there for
years. In -- in this situation, if we've got an existing
mobile home park and somebody pulls one out and they want to
put another one right back in, and it's in the floodplain,
they got a choice. They can either elevate up to the base
flood elevation or 36 inches; it's their call. That's the
one part of the FEMA regulations that I have no idea why
it's in there. It makes no sense to me at all, but that's
-- that's the way it is. And that's one of the hardest
things, when you read the regulations, to understand,
because it's -- it's -- code of federal regulations is a --
it goes on and on. I finally got it down to this, and I
think y'all probably have an understanding in your -- in
your monitoring that and taking care of those mobile home
subdivisions.
Going back to subdivisions, we touched on
that earlier. Require base flood elevation data for a
subdivision proposal that has 50 lots or 5 acres, whichever
is lesser. This is in an area that is unstudied. An area
that is just Zone A, 100-year floodplain on a map; no
elevation, no nothing. Just a shaded area. That's when
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these -- this first -- this first part's going to apply.
Provide for adequate drainage. I think that goes without
saying. Assure the utilities are constructed to minimize
damage. Lots of people think they build their house
elevated, but then you look over on the side, and the air
conditioner is sitting right on the ground. These attendant
utilities need to be elevated as well.
FEMA's in the process right now of remapping
the United States. I don't know if y'all have heard this or
not. They provided $750 million over five years to Michael
Baker Engineers, and Baker's in the process of getting
offices set up all across the United States. Ours is in
Denton. But they -- in five years, they intend to remap
every community in the United States. I don't think it's
going to get done. They're not off to a real good start so
far, I'll be honest with you. It was a major undertaking,
but it was one of those congressional mandates, and they
said you have to do it in five years, and they're trying to
figure out the best way to do it. One of the things they're
trying to do, though, is provide ownership of these maps.
They send people out when they are -- when the map first
comes out as a draft, and they will sit down with you, the
Court, and they're going to go over this map, and you're
going to have a chance to pick it apart.
You're going to have 80, 180 days -- I don't
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know what it is, but a long time to look at this thing and
tear it apart and say, "You got a hill in the floodplain
that shouldn't be there," and so forth. But get those maps
cleared up and let them become your map, not FEMA's map, but
really take some ownership in it. You're going to get a
digital map as well as a paper copy. And a lot of
communities, a lot of counties are switching over to the
digital way. It works a lot better when you're trying to
permit these structures. We're getting a lot of aerial
overlays that work real well on this now. This is a -- this
is kind of a growing thing that's starting to come out, this
-- this digitizing of everything. Like I said, I'm not an
engineer, but I've seen some of the products that come out,
and they're excellent, and it takes a whole lot of guesswork
that our surveyors have to go through, 'cause they can look
at a map, they can look at an aerial overlay, and that line
is already on there. Now, what they have to do is establish
that elevation, but it's going to be a heck of a lot easier
than it was before. If you have any questions -- and
everybody has a copy of the handout. This is your point of
contact with -- with FEMA, the national service provider,
with Michael Baker.
I told you earlier there's an incentive
program. I'm going to run through this pretty quickly.
It's called a community rating system. We have one county
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in the state that has chosen to do this. This program
rewards communities that have gone above and beyond the FEMA
minimum requirements. What it does, it reduces the
insurance premium to the individual out here that owns flood
insurance through the 311 that y'all have out here. It's
going to reduce their premium. I'll show you how much in
just a minute. There's really a bunch of classes you can go
into on this, and you've probably delved in this just a
little bit and know some of the stuff that's going on with
this, but essentially, there's four -- four main areas:
Public information, mapping regulations, flood damage
reduction, and preparedness. Within each one -- I'm not
going to read the slides to you, but, for instance, under
public information, these are some of the things you can be
doing to get points.
You get a series of points, and for each
point -- number of points you get, you can start going down
as far as your class rating and reduce that flood insurance
premium. Same thing with the mapping and regulations.
Again, I'm not going to read these. Flood damage reduction
and then flood preparedness. The slide's a little hard to
see, but if you have -- for instance, if you are -- look at
the second line there where it says class -- or second row
where it says class. If you go to a Class 9 -- in other
words, you accrue 600 to 999 points -- everybody who lives
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within the floodplain is going to get a 5 percent reduction
on their flood insurance premium. You could follow the
points on up, and the reduction continues to increase until
you can get it down to where it's a 45 percent reduction.
It does require work. I will not kid you; it
does require a lot of work on -- on your office or whoever
would be appointed to this, but it is excellent. It's a
good way of not only reducing flood losses, but getting the
premiums down for your constituents. For more information
on that program, Linda Delamare is with FEMA; she is the
community rating system point of contact. And you have our
cards, but I'll put that also up there. It's -- Heidi or
myself are always available. If you call my -- that number
right now, it will tell you this number, which has been
going off today. So, it's two of us to cover the whole
state, but we try to make ourselves available when we can to
y'all. And any more questions?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: One question, going back
to other development.
MR. HOWARD: Yes, sir?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What about land clearing?
MR. HOWARD: Land clearing? Is it going to
have any effect on the floodplain?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it might if there's
a lot of brush.
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MR. HOWARD: Yeah. Yeah, and that's really
up to -- that's really up to -- that's a gray area. That's
a gray area. I have had a number of complaints where
somebody has done that very thing. We've got a lot of
cities right now, small cities that have creeks running
through them, and over the years these creeks have grown up,
and you've got a lot of land down in that bottom area that
is loaded with small trees, small trees and shrubs. You
clear that out, get the water off this property faster, but
now it's on somebody else's, and so what's happening is
we're starting to see more of a coordinated effort up and
down the line. If you just want to go out and clear some
land in the floodplain, I personally probably would look at
it and say, "Go for it." I wouldn't see there's any
problem, in theory.
MR. ODOM: In theory.
MR. HOWARD: In theory, I wouldn't have a
problem with it. I would argue with FEMA if they ever came
down and said that was development, 'cause you would not
consider that development. If you dug a big ditch through
the middle of it, yeah.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Did you say earlier
that property owners in the floodplain can't be refused
insurance?
MR. HOWARD: You cannot -- if you own a
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policy and you make your premiums, you pay them on a regular
basis, and your property is built compliant, okay, at the
time of construction. Okay, let's say -- let's go way back.
Say it was built in 1950. There was no program. That
house, it turns out floodplain is up here and your slab's
down here. And if you don't ever have any substantial
damage or anything like that -- substantial, over
50 percent -- as long as that structure stays compliant, and
you're collecting every time you get a loss, that's right.
No, they're not going to cancel you because of losses. Now,
when you get into noncompliance and things like this, then
there are some other penalties. But, no, if you have a --
if you have a house built over here in -- in Kerr County
that is built compliant and floods repeatedly, they get a
foot of water in there once a year, they will not be
canceled. Anything else? I know there's some other folks
chomping at the bit to get up here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Howard. We
appreciate it.
MR. HOWARD: You bet.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Very good.
JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate you coming down,
you and Heidi both.
MR. HOWARD: Glad to do it. I'm going to
turn that over to you.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: I did have one more
question. Sounds like we're going to be doing our flood
damage prevention order sometime in the next couple months,
or six months probably, knowing us. Will you be available
to help, like, if we send you a draft to kind of --
MR. HOWARD: Sure. Sure, that's what we do.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Send you a draft of it?
MR. HOWARD: Be glad to. And I've already
talked to Truby about this. What I'm going to do is send
her a -- a FEMA model showing the minimums, and then y'a11
can tear that apart, or your attorney can, and define --
find the areas. As the old adage says, you can add to
what's there; can't take away from. So, if you want to add
1 foot over the B.F.E., that's fine, but you can't say 1
foot below the B.F.E.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MS. HARDIN: Jonathan, I have -- I have
already scanned in the old order into an electronic format
so that we can go in and change it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I guess that brings us
to the O.S.S.F. workshop. I assume, Miguel, you're going to
be heading that up?
MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: All right, good. Thank you.
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MR. ARREOLA: A couple of these --
JUDGE TINLEY: Why don't we go off the record
for a minute while he sets up?
(Recess taken from 2:25 p.m. to 2:34 p.m.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, why don't we get back to
business here. We've got an O.S.S.F. workshop portion to go
now, and I think Mr. Miguel Arreola, who is the manager or
director of our Environmental Health Department, is going to
start things off.
MR. ARREOLA: Thank you, Judge. Thank you
all for coming, for taking the time to be here. I'm going
to try to make it as fast as I can. You can interrupt me
any time you want. If you have questions, if the Court has
any questions, it will be good to know. The presentation is
going to take -- it's going to have two small parts. One's
going to be on O.S.S.F., and at the end, we're going to
touch a little bit just on illegal burning and illegal
dumping, which is part of the Environmental Health
Department also. It's just two or three slides on that one.
For the O.S.S.F., we're going to talk about
the laws that apply to our division; the application
process; how we do the application for septic systems; the
site evaluation, which is the first part of that process and
is very important; the plan review, going to talk about how
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we review the plans; the authorization to construct, what
it's all about and what it's used for; the inspection
process, how we inspect the construction of those septic
systems; the maintenance requirements on the septic systems;
timelines that we need to have, the State-mandated
timelines; any exceptions to the permitting process;
emergency repairs; platting requirements also involved in
our O.S.S.F. laws. The gray water rules, I have it there.
I'm not going to talk about it unless someone really needs
to touch on it, but I'm planning not to -- not to go into
that one.
Anyway, the first part is the laws that apply
to our O.S.S.F. rules. Start with the Health and Safety
Code, Chapter 366. That's where everything started. The
Texas Water Code, Chapter 7, also is part of it. Let's see
if I can make that a little more clear -- there you go. And
the one we use the most, and y'all have a copy of that part,
is the Administrative Code, Title 30, Chapter 285. That's
what the majority of our rules are that we use the most in
the O.S.S. F. industry. You all have a copy. There's more
copies in the back if someone needs to have a copy. I'm
going to be talking on it. The other one that we use is the
Title 30, Chapter 290; that's just for water crossings. Any
Commissioners Court orders that we have for our O.S.S.F.
order, and any others that do sometimes come in, like the
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Administrative 30, Chapter 331, and the Health and Safety
The first thing in there -- or the first
thing, how we start our program, is with an application.
The application process, you can find it on the rules. It's
Chapter 285.3(b) That's where it is. And, basically, what
we require is proof of ownership of the lot where you try to
develop your septic	system.	We need	a plat for that
location, sometimes	metes and	bounds	surveys, anything that
shows what -- what the property. We need a site evaluation
form. In the second part of the pack in there, you have a
lot of paperwork in there, but the first form, Form Number
1 -- it's Number 1 on the top. I might have it also in your
package. It's a site evaluation form, and it's done
basically according to the state rules. Does anybody need a
copy of it? You do? Okay. Do you have extra copies? And
it brings in or has all the information that site evaluator
needs to fill -- needs to complete -- to make that site
available for septic system.
Site evaluator is a person who determines or
suggests the type of system that can be done in that
specific location, based on a lot of technical information
that we're going to go into real slightly onto it. But
we're going to look at it into that specific form in a
minute. We do need planning materials that shows where the
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system is going to be, how it's going to be done, and the
fees for the department that were set -- I think the last
time it was set by the U.G.R.A., then adopted by the County,
the same set of fees. Okay. Now, the site evaluation that
we're talking about, it's required for every tract of land
Every tract of
Has to
be a soil texture analysis. We don't do perk tests any
more; we do a soil texture analysis, and it's explained in
the rules in your book. It's there, how to do it and what
type of soils you might find doing this soil texture
analysis.
A gravel analysis needs to be made, too, and
there's the rule where it is. Restrictive horizon analysis,
that's to see if there's any rock, any hardpan limestone or
anything that will interfere with the working of the well,
working of the septic system, so it needs to be in the file.
What they do is they -- companies normally dig 5-foot-deep
holes, two of them, and they study those holes. That's
basically the way on that. Groundwater evaluation, they
need to look at signs of water or presence of groundwater.
Topography analysis, we need to know the elevation. We need
to know the -- how the slopes are in the property, 'cause
there's a lot of regulations on where to install a septic on
sloping ground. There's regulations to that. The flood
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hazard, we spoke in the other one about flood. We need to
know if the system is going to be in flood hazard or not.
Basically, they can have a septic system in the floodplain,
but has to be special requirements are applied for it. They
have to be specially made for that.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What are the special
requirements for a system in the floodplain?
MR. ARREOLA: One of the most important is
the prevention of tank flotation. They have to somehow
prevent that the tanks will float in case of a flood. They
can anchor the tanks. They can use heavy -- very heavy lids
that will keep them in place. Also, electrical components
have to be elevated above the -- the floodplain or flood
base elevation.
JUDGE TINLEY: Miguel?
MR. ARREOLA: Yes?
JUDGE TINLEY: On the site evaluation, absent
the flood hazard or some strange topography or some
infiltrating groundwater, the substrata is normally what
really determines what you're looking at in the way of type
of system; is that not correct?
MR. ARREOLA: That's correct.
JUDGE TINLEY: If that substrata analysis,
the soil texture, the restrictive horizon, all of those
various things indicate that there is more than one type of
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system --
MR. ARREOLA: Uh-huh.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- that is permissible, --
MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- is that made known to the
owner, all of the different types of permissible systems
that are available in that particular location?
MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir, we do inform the
property owner. Most of the time the site evaluator does it
also. They tell them basically what's the best choice or
what other choices they have. We have a form available in
our office. It's there all the time -- I didn't make extra
copies; if you want, I can make some more copies -- where it
shows all the available systems, depending on the type of
soil, the type of conditions of your site. That is Table
13; it's in your rules book. You can give them some rules,
anybody who wants to see it. It's right at the end. The
table's right where you're at, Judge. Right -- Table 13.
It tells you what is suitable or unsuitable for your type of
soil. And there's all kinds of combinations, if you want to
combine one type of septic -- thank you, sir -- with the
type of drain field, if you want to have an aerobic
treatment with a subsurface disposal. You can have all
kinds of combinations if you want to utilize what you have
in your lot.
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JUDGE TINLEY: And I think you've answered
it; I just want to be sure. The -- the property owner is
told all of the various types or combination of types of
systems that are permissible legally for that particular
site once this site evaluation has been made?
MR. ARREOLA: It should be. Probably that's
a question for the site evaluators on the site. If
everybody's doing -- when they come -- homeowner comes to
our office, we do make them aware, but sometimes they
already have their choice made. Do you have a comment?
MR. MYERS: It's our job as installers to
offer all the options, but as far as Miguel's office
explaining to each individual property owner what all their
options are, that would -- we're talking about an hour of
consultation at least, because of all the different
variables.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think we want --
I mean, I don't want Miguel doing that.
MR. MYERS: The state rules are online, and
the homeowner -- the fact is, the homeowner, that's his
septic system, and nobody, Miguel's office nor the
installer, should be telling them, "You have to have this."
I should be --
MR. PRENDERGAST: By law, you can't tell them
they have to have a specific system. You have to tell them
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they have all of the alternatives.
MR. MYERS: It's our job to give them their
options as we see them. And they hire me to install the
options and get one of the options I offer to them. Then
it's going to be theirs when I'm done.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Miguel, what do you
provide when someone comes in at the beginning of the
process? Do you have a packet of information that you
provide that gives Table 13?
MR. ARREOLA: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's what the
County should do. The County should be responsible for
making it accessible; giving them, like, Table 13. Give
them the information they need so they can be informed, but
they need to read it themselves and interpret it, and they
can ask the installers and the evaluators --
MR. ARREOLA: We've seen sometimes that after
we gave them the table, they come back and say, "Okay, can
you explain me what this is?" And we take the time --
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. ARREOLA: -- when they have questions.
But we offer the information. Yes, sir?
MR. PRENDERGAST: My personal experience is
that's not the case with you, because I asked for you to
come back and tell me what system I could put in, and you
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personally told me you don't do that, which is what Jonathan
is saying they don't want you doing. So, what you're saying
is contradictory.
MR. ARREOLA: I don't recall you calling me,
but --
MR. PRENDERGAST: You probably don't remember
a lot of conversations, but some of them were important, so
remember that.
MR. ARREOLA: That's fine. That's okay. But
the main thing here is the site evaluator is the one dealing
directly with the homeowner.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. ARREOLA: If the homeowner does not agree
or has to know -- needs to know more options, yeah, we can
give him all the options. We cannot do site evaluations at
the site.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: There's a
perception, whether or not it's accurate, that over some
period of time, aerobic systems have been pushed when they
weren't necessary. Or what we're saying is, if that occurs,
that's not -- that's not -- the responsibility for
preventing that is not the Environmental Health Department.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, I don't think it is.
But I think -- and I think the data shows that aerobic
systems are less popular than they were a while back.
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MR. ARREOLA: I think I sent you a little bit
of information on it last month, and we are, like, way down
on the way it used to be. I think now it's 20 percent,
20-some percent aerobic. So, it's going --
JUDGE TINLEY: But you do -- you do provide
this in the package to the homeowner, this Table 13, I guess
it is, when they initially make the application with your
office before the site evaluation, so that they're at least
put on notice that there's lots of different options
available?
MR. ARREOLA: When they come in and ask,
"Okay, what do I do? Do I need to get an application? Do I
need to do this?" We give them the whole package. When
they come in and say, "I want an application, 'cause I have
already a site evaluation done, and this is what I'm going
to do," then their mind is set.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you still -- I
think it has to be standard practice that we give them a
package --
	MR. ARREOLA:	Regardless.	
	COMMISSIONER	LETZ: -- that you	put together.
Regardless if	they come in,	sign an application	-- if they
sign the appli	cation, you gi	ve them a package,	'cause -- so
that way they'	re informed.	And they can have -	- at least
have questions	that they can	-- hopefully they	-- they'll go
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to the people that are going to do the installation work.
MR. MYERS: I want to give one extreme
alternative. One of the extreme -- literally, you can go
out there and blast rock out, haul soil in, and put a
conventional system on just about any site. You could
spend -- you could create the environment required for a
conventional system, and that's crazy as far as the cost
goes, we think. But those -- that's how extreme these
options can get. The homeowner has that decision to make.
I think the homeowner should get online and study the rules
if he has that much --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the County has an
obligation to give them as much information as we can.
JUDGE TINLEY: Produce the information going
in.
MR. PRENDERGAST: And I think the conflict
begins where you're talking the extreme. You have an
uninformed public for the most part, and you're putting the
burden on his back to be totally informed. So, what I would
suggest is that the County say once you have a site
evaluation, you have your soil sample back, at that point,
there's something in large print that tells the uninformed
homeowner so that he doesn't get sold a system larger or
more expensive than is required; that he knows that he has
these other alternatives. And I think the County should
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show that. Because the site inspector in my personal case
came to my property and told me, "Well, you need to put in
an aerobic system."
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Site evaluator?
MR. PRENDERGAST: Yes. And I'm saying that
the County could at least, in the information that they give
to the citizen, say to them, "Okay, your soil came back as a
Class 4 soil. Here are your four alternatives." And then
that -- that citizen can make his selection with whoever he
desires to hire to do that job.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I wouldn't
want to go that far. I don't think we should get involved
that much. I think we should have a letter -- maybe a cover
letter that says, you know, this area has unique soils. You
need to visit with your contractor." I mean, I don't want
the County to be in a position or have the responsibility of
starting to tell people this system or that system.
MR. PRENDERGAST: I'm saying your soil is
this type soil; here are the systems you can have under the
state law.
COMMISSIONER. LETZ: I think -- well, we're
pretty close, George, but I think -- I just think you -- I
don't have a problem with giving them a letter.
MR. PRENDERGAST: I think it's an information
packet.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Just says that --
MR. PRENDERGAST: Very clear.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- our soils are
difficult. You may be faced with this. Here's some
questions you may want to ask.
MR. MYERS: Be in the encyclopedia, sir.
MR. PRENDERGAST: I'm very familiar with the
rules. You've got three soils here.
MR. ARREOLA: Did you have something?
AUDIENCE: I bought a car one time and wished
I hadn't have. I didn't need the County to inform me that I
didn't need to buy that car. But there are -- there are
installers that go to a job and they just look at it and
say, "Hey, all I'm going to put in is an aerobic." And, I
mean, that's the uninformed -- I don't see what else the
County can do, other than -- other than, you know, tell the
-- give that information packet.
MR. MYERS: And Miguel's job --
MR.. PRENDERGAST: The law doesn't require you
to buy a car. The law does require you to put in a septic
system.
MR. MYERS: The law requires the County to
accept or deny planning materials from the contractor that
you hire. That is their job.
MR. ARREOLA: That's exactly right.
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MR. PRENDERGAST: That's already controlled
by state law.
MR. ARREOLA: If the homeowner and the
installer already decided they want to do such a system, we
can't prohibit that. We can't tell them don't do it. If
they want to have an aerobic, even if they have the best
soil, is there a choice? So, there's nothing we can do.
The state law doesn't allow us to say, "Oh, no, we're not
going to let you do that." If they want to have that, it's
a choice. Of course, we inform them there's options, but if
they want to have it -- they want to do it, there it is.
MR. MYERS: And this is just an evolving
industry. Things have changed over the last five years --
over the last 15 years as far as what we think's the best
type of system, and there's a lot of different opinions.
MR. DIGGES: Yes. What we do is, there's
primarily four different types of systems that we install.
There's the conventional system, there's a low-pressure
dosing system, there's the aerobic with spray irrigation,
and there's the mound-type system. So, we give them a
packet that explains each one of those types of systems, and
then we give them a chart that we've calculated and we've
observed how much it takes to maintain those systems over
the course of several years, and so they have a yearly
annual expense they can look at. And so they can -- a lot
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of times that chart makes them, you know, zero in on a
choice goes to maybe a low-pressure dosing system. But I
can tell you that the aerobic systems, we maintain a lot of
those, and they cost about -- we think about $800 a year to
maintain, between your maintenance contract that is
mandatory, your chlorine consumption, your electrical
consumption. You've got to get those tanks pumped out more
often than regular tanks, so you have that extra expense. A
lot of times they're tied in with sprinkler systems; the
sprinkler heads go bad or get clogged up and the pump goes
out, compressor goes out. There's all types of things with
an aerobic system. So the public, when they are informed,
will really try to stay away from aerobic systems.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think the issue here is --
this site evaluation criteria. And then, once the homeowner
is put on notice that that site evaluation and its criteria
is going to give them several options, then they need to
carefully study what their own needs and desires are and
select their own option, rather than have someone tell them,
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"This is what you should do," when there may be two, three,
or four choices available. Any of those permissible choices
should be their selection, not by someone who's going to be
an installer, a designer, or someone else on that side of
the equation.
MR. DIGGES: But I must admit that in -- in
reality, we -- there's a lot of choices, but we don't spend
time on some of them, because they're just -- they --
they're so expensive. There's some that we don't spend time
on. The ones that -- that are cost-effective and that have
-- you know, we've learned that through the years, then we
focus on those. And if, you know, we -- if we have somebody
that comes to us about another type of system, we'll
certainly discuss it with them, but usually when that
happens and they learn the cost, then they -- you know, they
naturally back away.
JUDGE TINLEY: I understand that. I mean,
you can get out of the bounds of -- of practicality, like
Mr. Myers said. You can take solid rock and you can channel
that thing out and -- and bring in -- bring in fill and make
yourself a conventional system if you want to, but it's not
cost-effective. And, obviously, you're -- you're not going
to want to be dealing with those fringes in every single
case. I can understand that. But the point is that the
homeowner needs to know what's reasonably available and
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permissible so that they can make that appropriate decision.
MR. DIGGES: Yes.
MR. KIMBLE: We work in 11 different
counties --
JUDGE TINLEY: Your name, sir?
MR. KIMBLE: I'm John Kimble, South Texas
Wastewater Management.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you.
MR. KIMBLE: Mr. Grimes has been 22 years in
the business, and he's pretty strict on the way we do
things. We have a lot of aerobics; we have, like, 2,700.
They are a lot of maintenance. But we do not participate or
solicit to do any type of business. Usually it's the home
builder is the one who -- the client is told what kind he's
getting put into, 'cause when they come to us, it can be --
I'm not going to name installers or home builders, but they
call us and there's a new home being built; we just get
called to come do the job. We only meet the homeowner after
we do a walk-through or something like that. So, in your
new homes, something like this, the homeowner's never
discussed with what kind of systems. I would say the
majority of time, it's the builder who puts these things in.
Your older homes, when your systems have gone bad and
everything like this, at that time you could discuss, you
know, different options and things like that. But, you
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know, as far as the county, maybe the home builders -- and I
don't want to get any home builders upset, but, you know,
should be also educated that their clients have an option.
I don't know of anything in here in your county that says if
you have a new subdivision, that subdivision has to have
aerobic or low dosage or anything. I don't think so. But
this is an area that I don't know if options are given to
people.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's a good point. It may
well be --
MR. KIMBLE: Phone calls just come in with
builders, and we go put these systems in.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. That's a much more
streamlined process, because the builders presumably have a
lot more information and knowledge about -- about the
subject that you're dealing with. But from an educational
standpoint -- and this is something that Mr. Arreola has
been concerned about -- is education to the public. That's
one of the things they need to talk to their builder about,
or if it's a tract home, they had no input at the time, and
they're going to buy this tract house, they need to ask what
kind of system they're getting, so it's an educational
matter either way. So, that point is well-made. I
appreciate that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I disagree -- or
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not disagree, really, but just add a comment; that I think
most builders are more driven by dollars than anything else.
I don't think they're putting in -- the system they're going
to put in -- they don't care about the maintenance cost.
MR. ARCHER: Most builders --
JUDGE TINLEY: Your name, sir?
MR. ARCHER: Dale Archer.
JUDGE TINLEY: All right, thank you.
MR. ARCHER: Most builders that I've dealt
with, they hire one man, a site evaluator/designer. You
take care of a septic, and nine times out of ten builders I
know, they don't know what kind of system's going in; they
don't care. It's something that the banks make them do as a
package deal with the home, and they put their 20 percent on
it and they don't care.
MR. MYERS: Speaking of --
MR. PRENDERGAST: Or 25 or 30.
MR. MYERS: Speaking of don't care, the
average person, unless you do what we do for a living, most
-- you don't care what happens after you flush, until it
costs you some money.
MR. ARCHER: That's right.
MR. MYERS: We're the ones studying and
working it every day, and we know these rules.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand that, but, I
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mean, what we're trying to get at, we're the ones -- as soon
as the people get sold something they're unhappy with, they
call you and they call us.
MR. MYERS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're tryinq to keep the
calls from coming our way.
MR. MYERS: But neither the Court nor the
Environmental office should hold any liability, in my
opinion. Even -- even guilt over what happens between a
homeowner and contractor, because your job is just to
enforce the state law.
JUDGE TINLEY: If there's been full
disclosure to the consumer. That's the key, full disclosure
to the consumer.
MR. MYERS: Okay, good point. Thank you.
MR. PRENDERGAST: That's going back to what I
was saying earlier. When those people are coming in, I
think they ought to be told that they have other options to
insure that they're not getting sold a bill of goods that's
costing them more. And it's a simple form; "You have Class
4 soil, here are your options." And it may take an hour to
explain it to them, but irregardless, the site evaluation
that I'm familiar with costs $250, so if it takes you an
hour, that's still pretty good return on your dollar.
MR. ARREOLA: Okay.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Stuck in the sewer
already.
MR. ARREOLA: Let's continue on. Plan
review. It's taking too long? I'll go fast. That's in
285.5. For that, we need to -- the plans need to contain a
legal description of the property, a scale drawing. All
structures are going to be served by the O.S.S.F. All items
requested for the site evaluation we just looked at. All
items required in Table 10 for setbacks, and you have a copy
of Table 10 also in your package. And the plan's going to
be prepared or drawn by the installer, the homeowner, or a
professional designer if it's a standard system; by a
registered sanitarian or professional engineer only if it's
a proprietary system or nonstandard disposal. And I know
all that sounds a little technical, but we can explain it if
you need to.
(Judge Tinley left the courtroom.)
MR. ARREOLA: Professional engineer only if
nonstandard treatment or the structure is not exempted by
the Texas Civil Statutes, Article 3271a, 20. That's a lot
of numbers. There's a copy of the T.C.E.Q. -- in your
package, T.C.E.Q. memo explaining that better. Basically,
there's some -- some times that only a professional engineer
can design the septic, and that's when the public money's
in -- in place there, and a certain amount of money is
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involved. It's all explained in that memo.
Okay. The Authorization to Construct. Once
It's a document that is sent to
the property owner and to the installer. So, that comes
after the plan review, after we have a plat and proof of
ownership, and we have a maintenance contract if it's
required, if it's a system that will need a maintenance
contract. Then you will have Authorization to Construct,
like I say, sent to the property owner and the installer,
and it's good for one calendar year. Once you get an
Authorization to Construct, you can take up to 365 days to
finish the job. Nobody does that, but that's what it is.
The inspection process first starts with an
inspection appointment. Once the authorization has been
issued, we wait. That file is pending until we get a call
from either the homeowner or installer to go and inspect.
We do our inspection, and we do have an inspection
checklist. All of the systems are done with the same
inspection checklist per the type of system, so all of the
inspections are uniform. They're the same. And those forms
are available to installers who want to know what we're
going to be inspecting. It's there. They have -- most of
them have a copy of it already, so they'll know what we're
25 talking about.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Miguel, on the
inspections, do you physically have someone inspect every
system?
MR. ARREOLA: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And is it at the same
point in the construction process?
MR. ARREOLA: It's normally at the same
point. There's sometimes special circumstances when, you
know, a big rain came in or it's about to come in and they
need to backfill the tank to prevent flotation. We do take
statements. We try to keep them all open, everything at the
same time, but sometimes the weather doesn't help, and we do
take statements in a few. But, yes, the -- the rule is
everything open so we can check everything. Elevations of
the pipes, all of that, and we do a physical inspection on
each system.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. ARREOLA: The inspection results normally
is right after the inspection when someone's there.
Sometimes we don't have a person present there, and we
inform them by fax, by phone, by letter. We have up to
seven days to inform them. We normally do it same day or
day after. Maintenance requirements, when they do have to
have maintenance, it's mandatory for all aerobic systems.
The person who does the maintenance must be a certified --
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certified manufacturer and be an Installer II or a Class D
wastewater operator. Needs to be done once every four
months. And the report -- he sends a copy of the report to
the property owner and to the permitting authority; to us he
sends a copy. What we do with it is, that one is just
testing and reporting; it's not maintenance. They call it
maintenance contract, but what they're required to do is
just inspect the system, make sure everything works good.
And if he finds something does not work good, they're
required to let us know and let the homeowner know. Then
the maintenance comes after that, if someone -- someone
needs to fix it. When we get those reports, we review those
reports, and if there's violations in there noted by the
maintenance provider, we'll take action on them. We'll
normally call the homeowner and tell them that we were
informed of it.
Timelines. To review the planning materials,
we have 30 days. We have to give them -- we have to review
those plans within the first 30 days of receipt. The
authorization to construct is good for one year, one
calendar year. Notification of the inspection has to be
within seven days, seven calendar days. The property owner
needs to notify the permitting authority of any changes in
maintenance providers 30 days before the contract expires.
Then they're required to have five working days to schedule
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an inspection. We don't do that. Normally, we -- we
schedule an inspection next day, two days after, depending
on the workload. We got seven days to issue the permit to
operate. That is after the inspection has been done and
approved. We have to send a letter to the property owner, a
permit for them to operate. And then we have 45 days for
plat reviews. Have any questions on that? Okay. Yes?
MR. PRENDERGAST: These timelines, are those
established by statute, or are those individually something
that you all have implemented?
MR. ARREOLA: That's state law. It's all --
MR. PRENDERGAST: Under section?
MR. ARREOLA: It's section -- let's see, did
I put it in there? Okay, they're all throughout the book.
I didn't put on each one.
MR. PRENDERGAST: I didn't see one up there;
that's the reason I asked the question.,
MR. ARREOLA: Yeah, I didn't put them;
they're all throughout the book, but depending on each --
like, on the planning materials review, you go to the
section of the planning materials, and it tells you there.
So, each one has its own date.
(Commissioner Nicholson left the courtroom.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're losing them,
Miguel; you better hurry up.
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MR. ARREOLA: Exceptions. Okay. No person
is required to have a -- a permit, or you can have a septic
system without a permit if the system was installed before
September 1st of 1989, and has not been altered or is not in
need of repairs, or the system was installed before the
local permitting authority had an approved order. And that
was when? I think in 1980, '80-something. Do you remember
the date?
MR. DIGGES: You're older than me, Lane.
MR. WOLTERS: 1981. Before 1982.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What time of the day?
MR. WOLTERS: You remember, Buster; you were
there.
MR. NORTH: 1881, not 19.
MR. ARREOLA: Or you also don't have to have
a permit if there's a new installation for a single-family
dwelling. That's very important. Single-family dwelling,
and the system is located on a 10-acre or larger tract of
land. And Number 1 is not causing pollution; Number 2, all
components of the O.S.S.F. are at least 100 feet away from
property lines; Number 3, the effluent is disposed of on the
same property; Number 4 is the single-family dwelling is the
only dwelling on the property. If you qualify for that, you
don't have to have a permit.
Emergency repairs. It's possible to do
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emergency repairs without a permit from our office, and that
if the purpose is the abatement of an immediate, serious,
and dangerous health hazard, and does not constitute an
alteration of that O.S.S.F. system planning materials and
function. Emergency repairs include tasks such as replacing
tank lids, replacing inlet and outlet devices, and repairing
solid lines, and such repairs must meet this Chapter 285.
Installer needs to notify the permitting authority within 72
hours after the repair's started, and the inspection -- or
an inspection may be required at the discretion of the
permitting authority. Questions so far? No?
Okay, platting. Chapter 285 requires us --
or requires our office to do some platting revisions on the
plats, and they have to be for all subdivisions, something
that's a little different from the county rule. We have to
have a minimum of half an acre when it's community water
available for the lot. We got to have the overall site
plan, topographic map, 100-year floodplain map, soil survey,
location of water wells if there's any wells, location of
easements, and the type of systems that there can be
probably in that area, depending on the drainage, and a
drainage plan. Now, the county requirements is only
subdivisions with lots that have less than 3 acres in size,
25 ~ and that's in the Subdivision Rules. We have a minimum of 1
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acre for O.S.S.F. when they have community water supply.
And the court order, there's a number there, 29223, and, you
know, you asked us to deny permits when the location or the
property is not in compliance with the county Subdivision
Rules. Yes, sir?
MR. MYERS: Question. Is there a Kerr County
development permit available -- process?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not at the moment.
MR. MYERS: That complicates this, in my
thinking.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Complicates it?
MR. MYERS: Well, it gives -- it gives the
Environmental office and your court a sidebar on my permit.
If I -- if I understand, I need to meet Kerr County rules
and be approved for a subdivision.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. MYERS: But if there's not a develop --
Kendall County has a development -- I don't know how simple
it is, but regardless, there's a development permit needed.
Before you get a septic application, you have to get a
development permit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're looking at that.
We're not -- Kendall County has different authority, because
it's contiguous to Bexar County.
MR. MYERS: Okay.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're looking at that
right now with the County Attorney. And there may be
something -- which it's not going to be exactly, I don't
think, as -- well, the Court hasn't looked at it, for one
thing, but Kendall County's, like I say, is -- they have
different laws down there because of Bexar County. But it
kind of ties in with the last court order we just did, which
is to deny a permit when it's not in a platted subdivision.
MR. MYERS: Well, who did -- I guess the
Court would determine whether or not a septic system --
well, I'm just -- I'm just confused by the fact that if --
if I'm not in compliance with Kerr County Subdivision Rules,
then I can't come and get a septic permit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What -- I think we just
did this, and probably we're looking at how we're going to
actually handle it. I don't think it's going to be -- we're
just trying to find illegal subdivisions.
MR. MYERS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think once we're aware
of it, the Court will then authorize, in all likelihood,
issuing the permit to get the homeowner -- it's not the
homeowner's fault -- to get the permit done. May be a
little bit of a delay.
MR. MYERS: That's the fear, is the homeowner
buys the property --
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	COMMISSIONER LETZ:	Yeah.	
	MR. MYERS: -- and	then he	finds out it was
platted too	recent. And, really,	legally,	it doesn't have
paved roads,	and now he can't get	a septic	on it.
	COMMISSIONER LETZ:	If we'r	e not under the
current rule	s -- this is before 2000, whic	h was the last
revision of	the rules. It's just	going to	pass through.
	MR. MYERS: Okay.		
	MR. ARREOLA: So t	hat 2000	is the number,
okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Isn't that the date?
MS. HARDIN: Is there any way we can get a
court order --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It will probably be on
our next agenda to look at that a little bit.
MR. ARREOLA: So, if it was subdivided before
2000, we don't really have to worry about it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably. The Court
hasn't decided.
MR. ARREOLA: That was a question that we
had; it was next, so that's already answered. Also, in the
Subdivision Rules, there is some exceptions on platting that
does not address the lot sizing. It's basically Section
103, and we just had the question, are we going to implement
that to meet the septic rules for the state? That's
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something we can bring up later. For now, what we're doing
is, in that part, we're working with Road and Bridge to get
all those determinations.
MR. MYERS: Mm-hmm.
MR. ARREOLA: Once we get a septic
application in, if the plat seems to be in violation of the
county rules, we go to Road and Bridge. They make the
determination if it's really a violation or not.
MR. MYERS: Mm-hmm.
MR. ARREOLA: If it's a violation, then, like
the Commissioner said, we might come into Commissioners
Court and say, "Look, this is the location we have to go on
with the septic." And if they approve it, we'll continue
with the septic and then deal with the subdivision after
that.
MR. MYERS: Who's going -- are we going to
hold the developers accountable for this? I mean, is there
going to be any resource --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably going to be as
to who's -- it's going to depend on who it is. If the
property's already sold, it's going to be the person that
bought the property. I mean, they may have civil action
against the developer, and they probably do, but we can't go
back to the developer. But we can go to the person that
owns that property and say, "You can't get a permit."
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MR. MYERS: But if that developer did
something that was outside of your rules --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If he did something
illegal, we'll turn it over to the County Attorney.
MR. MYERS: Okay. I understand, okay. All
right.
MR. ARREOLA: Are there any questions on
that?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Usually the case is
that they didn't plat it at all.
MR. ARREOLA: Yeah, it was a survey.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just a piece of
property out there with a bunch of houses.
MR. MYERS: How'd they get the deeds to sell
them?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think --
MR. MYERS: Contract for Deed, probably.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The title companies are
beginning to crack down on it, and we're not going to try to
go back and fix Kerrville South. That's -- you know,
it's -- what's done was done. But we can go back in, we
figure, five years, and some of these newer developments --
MR. MYERS: I know where there's some
.18-acre tracts for sale in Kerr County. That's what brings
this issue up.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We want to know about
them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
MR. ARREOLA: Okay, gray water rules. If
someone wants to talk about it, we can do it. If not --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No.
MR. ARREOLA: No? Okay. They're very
controversial. The next one, the next -- the last part of
this presentation is basically outdoor burning and solid
waste. Is there any other questions on septics? Anything
that you want to know about what we presented? Yes, sir?
MR. PRENDERGAST: In the inspection process,
what you're telling me is that there's two inspections on
the ground; is that correct?
MR. ARREOLA: We do a site confirmation in
most of the systems, not in all. Most of the systems. The
only -- we don't do any aerobics. We do do a preliminary
site inspection. Then we do the final inspection, yes, sir.
MR. PRENDERGAST: So, two.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But on the other, you
don't -- only do one?
MR. ARREOLA: Yeah.
MR. MYERS: One construction inspection.
MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir?
MR. PRENDERGAST: Okay. But it's only two.
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MR. ARREOLA: Yes.
MR. PRENDERGAST: Okay.
MR. ARCHER: What is -- site confirmation,
that's where a lot of problems have come up in the past; not
so much with me and the people I've worked with, but I heard
it from other installers, where you've got a registered
sanitarian or P.E, that's designed a system, and then on the
first confirmation, that site evaluation is changed by the
inspector because he doesn't agree with the soil
classification. And the site evaluator or the installer has
told the homeowner, "We can put this type of system in," and
then when the site confirmation is done is where a problem
arises, and the homeowner has already been given a price.
And it appears to me if a site evaluation is done by a
licensed site evaluator or a professional engineer,
registered sanitarian, that ought to be enough credentials
without a representative of the inspection department
changing the design, and that's basically what had happened
from time to time.
MR. MYERS: But can I say something? Dale,
if they waited until you got the system built and then found
out that your site evaluation was wrong...
MR. ARREOLA: Well, there's a down side to
that coin.
MR. MYERS: So, what do you do?
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MR. ARCHER: Well, the biggest problem you
could probably have is just add drain fields on there.
MR. ARREOLA: Sometimes even the type of
system changes.
MR. ARCHER: There's two counties right
around us that don't do the site confirmation.
AUDIENCE: I think that when we've had a
disagreement, we just say let's take it to the lab and test
the soil.
MR. MYERS: The rules are clear on, when
there's a disagreement, what to do.
MR. ARREOLA: There is -- you got a good
point. The rules say
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess what percent of
the time is there a disagreement? I mean, just ballpark.
Is this, like, 10 percent of the time or --
MR. MYERS: For conventionals? When there's
a borderline Class 3 soil, and we're -- we, as an installer,
say, "I believe this system will work," and --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You believe it's a 3 and
he says it's a 4?
MR. MYERS: Yeah. That's that gray area,
right?
MR. ARREOLA: 10 percent, you think?
MR. ARCHER: You can have a soil analysis
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done by a lab, okay, and I seen one at, like, 2 percent
being a Class 3. In other words, it was 2 percent -- it was
a Class 9, and you could dig 5 feet from here to there --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Change.
MR. ARCHER: -- and it changes, and then
you'd be 5 percent into the good. That's the reason these
systems are -- you know, the State says you have got to have
200 feet; you know, it's to compensate for that type of
soil. But I don't know the answer to it. I mean, I'm just
saying the rule book says that the designated representative
will not work as a site evaluator. Well, you come out on
the site and you change -- whenever you change a soil
classification, you are changing the design, basically, of a
system, any way you look at it.
MR. ARREOLA: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the other side of
that, it seems to me that if you don't -- if the regulatory
authority doesn't have authority to do that, you might not
even have a system. You can say the system will be
self-controlled --
MR. MYERS: The burden is on us as
contractors to try to make these rules blend with our
contractors.
MR. PRENDERGAST: Well, the law says the
burden's on us, anyway. The law says that the burden is on
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the site evaluator and the installer. Our duty as an
installer is, if something is wrong in that design while
we're putting it in, we see something wrong, we're supposed
to stop. And I've had to do that and get a redesign.
MR. MYERS: The toughest part of our job is
to do a job for a homeowner and meet these rules and make
everybody sit at the same table.
MR. ARCHER: That's correct.
MR. MYERS: But that's where we're going to
succeed or not, is based on that, in my opinion.
MR. ARREOLA: Yes. There is a -- a very
small appeals process in the rules. Basically, like he was
saying, if there's a disagreement, let's take it to the --
take soil samples. I think what we need in the county is a
real appeals process, where if someone doesn't agree with
our decision, and we can present both sides in a clear way.
Not just "he said/I said." You know, bring evidence or
whatever -- what's there. When we take a sample of a soil
and it's taken to the lab, and it's 41 percent clay and it's
Class 4, it's Class 4, and that's how the State sees it. I
mean, once we get a sample and it's a documented soil
sample, that's what it is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do you collect
samples? Or how do y'all collect samples?
MR. MYERS: Profile holes. We'll go down,
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we'll take -- if there's three different profiles, we'll
take three different samples out.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If there's -- and -- but
I guess the reason I'm asking is that one of the gentlemen
just said that the soils change so quickly here. You can be
in clay, then be in gravel, then be back in clay, so -- you
know. But, anyway, I just read the note of that.
MR. ARREOLA: The rule says you got to go
with the most restrictive soil.
MR. MYERS: Within 2 foot below the proposed
excavation. And that's hard to throw at some folks when
it's this close to a conventional. You just want a little
favor from the authorities, and you -- sometimes you just
don't get it.
MR. ARCHER: Now, that's what gets me, is the
2 foot below bottom of -- trench bottom, which most trench
bottoms are 3 foot. That's the reason we dig the 5-foot
hole. Well, if you got a foot of clay up on top, that's not
2 foot below trench bottoms. They say, "Well, it's clay.
You got to put in an alternative system," you know. And I'm
not saying you've done that in particular, but I've seen it
done.
MR. ARREOLA: No, I don't do that.
MR. ARCHER: Well --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. All right.
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MR.	ARREOLA:	Any --	you	have	a comment?
MR.	WOLTERS:	I just	want	to	make one
this is when it's close
know, and it's two guys down there with a little stick that
they broke off in mesquite trying to figure out who got
closest with the horseshoe, and I think there may be room
for some type of a process that -- not a spitting contest or
fisticuffs or anything like that, but where we can present a
case and say, look, this soil has great structure. The soil
beneath it has good structure. We're 4 percent off in the
clay zone, but look at this. This is a perfect set.
There's no evidence of groundwater. It's a big lot.
There's not a history of evidence of problems in this area.
There's not a high-density sub -- whatever your weighted
deals are. And then, on the other hand, you're saying, well
here's -- my deal is, yeah, 4 percent off, and there's
evidence of groundwater, and it's in a swell; it's a bad set
geologically, and it's a high-density area. We've had a
history of failure in the past. And maybe have some type of
impartial group come in and -- and mediate the thing, if
it's that important. I mean, a lot of times you say, well,
it's not that important; we go ahead and put in a
low-pressure dosing system. But a lot of people are getting
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to the point where they would rather fight a little bit or
present an argument for a conventional system, if it's that
close, and I would too.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would, too.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's a good
idea. Good point.
MR. DIGGES: Well, and it makes a big
difference. When you cross the line from a Class 3 to a
Class 4 soil, it means you can no longer have a conventional
system, so now you have an extra compartment, you have a
high-water alarm and a pump. You also double -- double the
size of your drain field, and so that makes for an awful big
field, makes for an awful big pump. Usually the manifold
that goes to feed those feeder lines is awfully big. And
so, in dollars and cents, a lot of times when you cross that
line from a low-pressure dosing -- from a conventional to a
low-pressure dosing, you're talking anywhere from two to
maybe six -- $6,000. $2,000 to $6,000. It can be sizable.
The more bedrooms you have in the home, the more pronounced
it is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. ARREOLA: One thing I would like to ask
the audience is, we try and -- probably you can share a
little bit of this. We try to accommodate as much as we
can, like Lane is saying, with the whole overall picture of
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the site. Try to use common sense and apply what's best
thinking of the homeowner and thinking about the
environment. Are we protecting the environment? Are we
protecting the homeowner with this installation? So, if
we're not doing that, then we're not doing our job right,
and I would like to know about it from the installers, from
the Court. But, at the same time, I would like to have --
if there is a discrepancy, I would like to have a fair -- a
fair trial, a fair appeals process. Not just, "No, I think
he made a big mistake here, and I'm not saying who I am, but
just he's a bad boy." I don't think that's right.
MR. MYERS: If I was sitting over there and I
was concerned about the citizens of the county and the
liability to making sure they're informed, I would be more
concerned about an office that would allow borderline
situations to go to the lesser side, because then he's
approved a system that, if it fails five years from now, it
was built improperly and they could show proof that it was
permitted incorrectly. So that's why the State draws one
line. They don't give a gray area, and then they leave that
burden on -- on this office.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. PRENDERGAST: But this county has
immunity; you can't sue the county. You can only sue the
installers and those guys.
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MR. ARCHER: That's right. That's what I
say; all the legal responsibility falls on site evaluators
and installers.
MR. MYERS: But we're all here because the
County's concerned about the people that live here getting
treated right and not getting -- getting misled.
MR. ARCHER: We're here because people have
been calling Commissioners, raising cain. That's why we're
here.
MR. MYERS: Yeah. So -- but the
Commissioners --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Pretty close.
MR. MYERS: They can't be sued, so at least
they're doing their job.
MR. ARCHER: Yeah, but their ears are
starting to hurt. They do have to run for re-election.
AUDIENCE: The process that I have seen the
last few years has been as fair as it has ever been. And
the County doesn't seem to push aerobics or any alternative,
but when it's obvious it has to be done, then, of course,
they okay them. But the process has been getting more fair,
it seems to me like, than it has in the past five to ten
years.
MR. DIGGES: I agree with that.
MR. PRENDERGAST: Is that an admission it's
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always been unfair, but we're just more fair now?
MR. ARCHER: Well, the public is slowly but
surely finding out about all these laws that we've had to be
And it's a --
MR. PRENDERGAST: It's not a good --
MR. ARREOLA: Well, just to finalize, I would
like to assure everyone, our department is a service --
service-oriented department. We consider ourselves public
servants. We're there to provide service, so we're here to
serve you Commissioners, anybody in the community, so feel
free to call us with any questions you have. The last part
is going to be by Ray Garcia; he's going to talk a little
bit about solid waste.
MR. GARCIA: I'm Ray Garcia. I work in the
Environmental Crimes Investigation Division with Deputy
Constable Ed North. We're going to go over some outdoor
burning laws for the state of Texas, which come from the
Title 30, Chapter 111. Okay. Chapter 111.201, the general
provision, okay, states that, "No person may cause, suffer,
allow, or permit any outdoor burning within the state of
Texas, except as provided by this subchapter or by orders or
permits by the commission." And the commission is the
T.C.E.Q., okay? A lot of the community -- the county
community doesn't know about these laws. Every time we --
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Ed and I show up at an illegal burn site, the standard
answer is that, "Oh, we didn't know we couldn't burn," or,
"We didn't know the laws changed." The law was adopted on
August 21, 1996, and it went into effect September 16th,
1996. And, again, the public -- they're not aware of this,
and we are out there enforcing these laws. So, when the
Commissioners or when anybody from the county gets a call
wanting to know if there are illegal outdoor burning laws,
for the Commissioners, in your handout here that we have,
it'll show you all the laws and the exceptions that we're
going to go over. Okay.
MR. MYERS: May I ask a question?
MR. GARCIA: Yeah.
MS. HARDIN: We have county burn bans; we
watch it real close, so we're actually not following the law
by -- when we lift that burn ban, we're basically saying
it's okay to burn?
MR. GARCIA: Right. And that's the --
MR. MYERS: That's the way I would read it.
MR. GARCIA: Right. And that's how the
public sees it, okay? Well --
MR. MYERS: I got a pile; I'm ready to burn
at the next rain.
MR. NORTH: Can I answer that right quick for
you? The burn ban basically -- when it's off, that applies
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to situations where you're legally allowed to burn. The
only time --
MR. GARCIA: We're going to run into that.
That's --
MR. NORTH: That's the exception. That's why
you go over the exceptions. That's when the burn ban goes
into effect.
MR. GARCIA: One of the first exceptions is
for firefighters and fire training, okay? And next
exception is recreation, ceremony, and cooking and warmth.
That's disposal fires. Okay, on disposal fires, there's a
misconception there also. In the laws, it says that you can
burn trash, your own trash that you accumulate, your own
household. Well, there's also a note in there that if --
AUDIENCE: The caveat is only in counties
where there's no trash pickup.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only in counties
where there's what, Eddie?
MR. MYERS: You mean government-provided
trash pickup?
MR. NORTH: Any trash pickup.
MR. GARCIA: If the local government has
enacted commercial, or if there's free trash pickup in the
county --
MR. MYERS: Uh-huh.
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MR. GARCIA: -- then it's against the law to
burn your trash. And currently, from the research that
we've done, B.F.I. has reached -- they hit the majority of
the county, or you have the local -- the small business
owner that goes out and picks up trash.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is the distinction
whether or not the County provides the service or whether
the service is available for property owners to acquire?
Where's the distinction?
MR. NORTH: It only has to be available. The
County does not have to provide it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because the County
doesn't provide it.
MR. NORTH: There may be a question whether
the county has -- if there's a question in court where
someone is cited for burning, the County needs to show that
there is trash pickup available, whether it's private pickup
or -- or whether it's commercial pickup or whether it's with
some private enterprise. It has to be county-wide.
MR. PRENDERGAST: What are you defining as
trash? Are we talking about tree limbs? Is that trash?
MR. GARCIA: No, we're talking about
household trash.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Household trash.
MR. GARCIA: Yes.

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COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question I have is
that -- so, I mean -- so you're saying that Kerr County has
trash pickup. Is that what --
MR. ARREOLA: Currently available to everyone
in the county.
MR. NORTH: Kerr County does have trash
pickup available.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Since it has, that you
cannot burn household trash?
MR. NORTH: Not legally, no.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not legally? Never?
MR. NORTH: We're not going to go out to
every ranch in this county and find your little burn fields.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the other part of
that is, B.F.I. -- they may say they go to the whole county.
They do not. And neither does other -- there are many parts
of the county that they will not -- they may take your money
and sign you up, but they may only come every two weeks.
MR. GARCIA: That's when we research it. If
they have more than two people out there, or more than so
many on that route going out toward Midway or whatever,
', wherever the far parts of the county, then they will go out
there, but they have to have it -- it's got to be
worthwhile, obviously.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Can -- okay.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, it's really not
uniform service county-wide.
MR. GARCIA: Well, no, I wouldn't say it is.
MR. MYERS: The way we interpret the other
state rule is, you cannot put a septic system on a piece of
property if sewer's available. Even though I own this
property, I'm not able to get a septic system on it --
on-site sewage facility -- because sewer is available, but
it's generally a government-provided sewer system or some
sort of municipality. So, I don't know.
MR. GARCIA: Then prescribed burns is another
exception large landowners will go through. Hydrocarbon
burning; that's oil brakes, pipelines, stuff like that,
which we don't have here. And then, finally, the Executive
Director approval of the T.C.E.Q. He's the only one that
can authorize a person to burn in the state of Texas. Okay,
general requirements. A, prior to prescribed burn or
controlled burning for forest management purposes, the Texas
Forest Service shall be notified. Burning must be outside
the corporate limits of a city or a town. Wind inversion
and other weather conditions must meet specific criteria.
And in the handout I gave you, it does give specifics on the
wind and the weather conditions. Flag persons must be
posted in a smoke -- in the area where the smoke is blowing
across roads. We have a lot of problems here. The
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Sheriff's Department is always being called out because
somebody's burning and the smoke is going across I-10, and
the people just don't know that you're supposed to have flag
persons, even if it's on a highway, out there directing
traffic. We have a lot of problems with that.
Okay. Burning must be at least 300 feet from
sensitive receptors. "Sensitive receptors" are us, people.
Could be vegetation, could be livestock, and that's also
outlined in the laws in this handout. Okay. Burning may
only take place during certain daylight hours and
meteorological conditions. There are hours that the State
has put out for people to burn, and that's also in here too.
Those hours are one hour before -- or one hour after
sunrise, and then the fire should be extinguished one hour
before sunset. Okay. Certain items may never be burned,
and again, that's in here in the handout that I gave you.
Finally, the responsibility for consequences, and this is
state law. The burner is always responsible for any damages
that might ensue, even if he or she does everything
correctly in accordance with state law.
Now, one thing on this is that what we're
finding out, Eddie and I, is that we go out to these places
that are burning rather large piles. They end up doing
illegal burning by burning large piles of trash, and they're
telling us that, "We called the Sheriff's office," or, "We
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called the local fire department." And, you know, again, in
there and in the rules, the first part of the rules said
that nobody is allowed to give that authority to burn. I
would venture a guess that a lot of these people did do
that; they called the fire department and the deputy and
said, "Hi, I've got a fire going." There's a misconception.
MR. NORTH: If I can add to that just a
moment, Commissioners, I might direct your attention to a
case in north Texas. Dr. Ockles -- John Ockles, who's the
head of the COG in Sherman, Texas, told me the local fire
department there will give information -- when people call
and say, "Can we burn?" they say, "Yeah, the burn ban is
off; go ahead and burn." Well, they did, and the fire got
away from them and burned a lot of property, and the courts
held the fire department responsible, liable for all the
damages, because they gave permission to burn. So, if
anybody calls you and asks if they have -- you know, I would
be real cautious about saying, "Yeah, burn ban is off;
burn," because the County can be held responsible for that
if a fire gets out of control. That's just one case of
many.	But it's just	a thought	that you might -	- you might
want	to consider.			
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Isn't there -- maybe it
was changed in '96, but there used to be a provision under
the prescribed burning that if you followed the rules set
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out in the law of prescribed burning, that the landowner was
not liable if the fire got away.
MR. ARREOLA: Oh, I don't know.
MR. NORTH: I'm just telling you just one
case that's case law that happened in north Texas; that, you
know, the liability factor's always there.
MR. ARREOLA: Basically, the new rule says
the only entity that can permit burning is T.C.E.Q.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. The two questions
I have, what authority does your office have to enforce
these, and what are the penalties?
MR. ARREOLA: Penalties -- we don't have the
penalties for burning here. They're in your -- are they in
there?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: In this thing?
MR. ARREOLA: I don't know if burning is in
there.
MR. GARCIA: The burning is on the bottom
there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But does -- is there -- I
don't see anywhere in here where this has been transferred
from T.C.E.Q. to the County.
MR. NORTH: I'm sorry, Commissioner, I didn't
understand.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where the enforcement of
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these rules is the County's responsibility.
MR. NORTH: It's not -- it's not the County's
responsibility, per se, but by law, there's a provision in
the code -- in the Administrative Code that provides for
penalties. And, as a peace officer, I either have to file a
case with the County Attorney and take them to court.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the authority that
our office uses is because you're a peace officer?
MR. NORTH: Authority we have to enforce laws
comes from the Administrative Code, Chapter 111.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, if you were not a
police officer --
MR. NORTH: Not a peace officer.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- then we could -- the
County could not enforce any burning rules -- burning
violations?
MR. NORTH: It would be hard to. It's
illegal. I guess there's some caveat that -- some provision
in the law that says anyone can file a -- a case, but
it's -- I think it's only in reference to illegal dumping.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What I've always been
told is that the County has no authority over outdoor
burning other than we do a burn barn.
MR. NORTH: We do under this -- under the
Administrative Code.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Under 111?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 111 says it's T.C.E.Q.
MR. NORTH: Only T.C.E.Q. can give permission
to burn.
COMMISSIONER LETZ:
MR. NORTH: But we
the state law. That's a code --
enforce a code as a peace officer
COMMISSIONER LETZ:
People -- that's not the county.
peace officer.
Right.
can -- I can, so that's
state code, and I can
That's what I'm saying.
That's a police officer or
MR. NORTH: Yeah. Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm trying to find out
where it says this Commissioners Court has any authority
over --
MR. NORTH: They don't.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- outdoor burning.
MR. NORTH: No, they don't. Commissioners
Court has no -- that I know of, has no authority to
authorize burning, but you do have the authority to impose a
burn ban.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And during a burn ban, a
burn ban trumps all these?
MR. NORTH: Burn ban says if it's -- a burn
ban is in place, that even -- or even if there's no burn ban
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on, even though you're legally allowed to burn under these
exceptions, it's -- if a burn ban's on, you still can't
burn. That's where your authority is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. NORTH: To control it.
MR. MYERS: I have a practical question. If
I was clearing land and I wanted to burn, I wanted to come
to the State and get a permit to do that, how complicated
would that be?
MR. NORTH: One of the exceptions in the
rules is a land-clearing operation. Here, you want to --
MR. ARREOLA: You don't have to get a permit;
you can just do it.
MR. ARCHER: If it gets away from you, you
are responsible to the landowner that you're burning for.
MR. NORTH: Any land-clearing operation, you
can burn that on that land.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm.
MR. NORTH: You can't clear Land A, carry it
over to Land B and burn it.
MR. MYERS: Okay.
MR. NORTH: Can't do that.
MR. MYERS: All right.
MR. NORTH: You can't haul any trees and
lumber, asphalt shingles, petroleum products --
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MR.	MYERS:	Yeah, I	understand.
MR.	NORTH:	-- and	things of that nature into
your land.
MR. ARCHER: No tires.
MR. MYERS: You're not really stopping
development of property or maintenance of property?
MR. NORTH: Has nothing to do with it.
MR. MYERS: Okay, good. Thank you.
MR. NORTH: Do you want a copy of that? I'll
make you a copy.
MR. MYERS: Okay.
MR. NORTH: That's one of the exceptions.
MR. MYERS: Is land clearing one of the
exceptions? Okay.
MR. ARREOLA: Okay. The next one, I think --
MR. GARCIA: Right. This last one here that
we're going to run into is a dumping on one's own land;
we're finding a lot of that now. The growth of the county
now, we're having more and more people having their own
personal dumps. You're probably finding one every two to
three weeks now that are being reported and called in that
people are actually charging other people to come on and
dump trash on their property. We just closed one out this
morning, Mr. North and I. And that one fell into Gillespie
County, but the trash hauler was local, and he was taking
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trash to that property in Gillespie County and paying her to
dump on that property.
MR. MYERS: Bootleg B.F.I.
MR. NORTH: That's two years in prison.
MR. GARCIA: The laws are on that card there
that explain the law -- the penalties.
MR. MYERS: You should have been here 15
years ago, if you think there's a lot of dumps around here.
MR. NORTH: Wasn't no laws.
MR. ARREOLA: We're going to show you a few
in a minute.
MR. GARCIA: Health and Safety Code 341,
Health and Safety Code 343 are laws that apply to dumping.
Texas Water Code, Chapter 7, also has a lot of laws and
penalties for dumpling. Okay. Now, this and other dump
sites, and the one that's recent here in the county that we
just had called in last week, this dump site is -- is rather
large. We're going to show you pictures of that. For this
person right now -- supposedly, this is in Kerr County.
This guy -- this person owns a construction company, and two
of his employees said that they bring in the construction
material and dump it and burn twice -- twice a year. The
size of this dump, if you can see Miguel on the edge there
on the second picture, top right, will give you a scale of
how large this dump is.
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109
MR. ARREOLA: It's a pit. You can see it's
very deep. And they burned before, and there's evidence of
burning here, all kinds of stuff, all kinds of toxical
materials, like right there, all kinds of chemicals being
exposed to the air.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Miguel, I thought -- or
any of y'all, I thought that you could dispose of your own
garbage, whatever you want to call it, on your own property;
you just couldn't take another person's and put on it your
property.
MR. NORTH: Yeah, you can to a certain
extent. If it's --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, clearly, that's a
violation. That's clearly a violation.
MR. ARREOLA: It's commercial.
MR. NORTH: Yeah, I think it has to be one
household.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, one household can
dispose of their waste on their -- as long as it's not, you
know, toxic and --
MR. NORTH: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- all that other stuff.
MR. NORTH: Household garbage. But then the
caveat to that, if you own a big property, a ranch, say, for
instance, you have a pit. Then you need to go to the County
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Clerk's office and note on your deed -- on your plat of your
land that there's an unauthorized, illegal dump site
there -- not "illegal." We'll say a dump site there. It
gets noted on your -- put that notation on your deed. There
is a dump site there.
MR. MYERS: I've seen that in closing
documents where you sell a piece of property, and one of the
lenders required that you have to sign saying that no toxic
waste has been buried on this property.
MR. NORTH: We just had a case where a
realtor in town was selling some property, and it was a
waste -- illegal dump site on it. Luckily, Miguel and I
talked to him; they were very helpful and they went out and
cleaned it up. But if they would have sold the property,
the people who bought the property would have bought the
dump site, basically, and they would have had to clean it
up. So --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Eddie, this is not
that location down off Medina Highway, is it?
MR. NORTH: No, sir, this is out, I believe,
by Hunt.
MR. GARCIA: This is off of 39 here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to wrap this up.
MR. ARREOLA: All right. That is all we had.
Thank you for your attention.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you very much.
Appreciate it.
MR. PRENDERGAST: I had a few comments I
wanted to make in regards to the way the septic system is
being run. Would you prefer I do that in open court or
here?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't care. Go ahead
if you want to do it now.
MR. PRENDERGAST: If you want to go, we can
do it later.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Either way.
MR. PRENDERGAST: Let's do it later if you
want to.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. We're done.
(Workshop adjourned at 3:47 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF KERR
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 2nd day of August,
2005.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
BY: ___ -----
Kathy anik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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