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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
and
HEADWATERS GROUNDWATER CONSERVATION DISTRICT
Water Availability Joint Workshop
Monday, January 22, 2007
2:00 p.m.
District Courtroom Number 2
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
COMMISSIONERS COURT:
Pat Tinley, Kerr County Judge
H A."Buster" Baldwin, Commissioner Pct. 1
William "Bill" Williams, Commissioner Pct. 2
Jonathan Letz, Commissioner Pct. 3
Bruce Oehler, Commissioner Pct. 4
HEADWATERS GROUNDWATER CONSERVATION DISTRICT:
Gordon Morgan, Precinct 1
Mary Ellen Summerlin, Precinct 2
Diane McMann, Precinct 3
John Elliott, Precinct 4
Jim Hayes, At Large
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On Monday, January 22, 2007, at 2:00 p.m., a joint
workshop of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and Headwaters
Groundwater Conservation District was held in District
Courtroom #2, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and
the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
MS. SUMMERLIN: Ladies and gentlemen, I think it's
2 o'clock. May we come to order, please? Thank you.
Welcome, and thank you very much for coming. This is a joint
workshop of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and the Board
of the Headwaters Groundwater Conservation District, and so I
need to call the roll. Judge Pat Tinley?
JUDGE TINLEY: Here.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Commissioner Buster Baldwin?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Bill Williams?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Commissioner Jonathan Letz?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Bruce Oehler?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm here.
MS. SUMMERLIN: And for Headwaters, Precinct 1,
Gordon Morgan?
MR. MORGAN: Here.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Precinct 2, Mary Ellen Summerlin,
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here. Precinct 3, Diane McMann?
MS. McMANN: Here.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Precinct 4, John Elliott?
MR. ELLIOTT: Here.
MS. SUMMERLIN: And at large, Jim Hayes?
MR. HAYES: Here.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Thank you. All present. Then,
since we have a quorum present and the meeting has been posted
in accordance with the law, I'll declare it in order. I want
to welcome all of you again. We didn't expect near this big a
crowd, and I really appreciate your coming out for this.
We -- this is the general way it will work. We'll have a
presentation by Feather Wilson, Headwaters geologist and
hydrologist, and then we'll have responses from this panel,
and then we'll have questions from you. So, during all this,
we'll have cards and pencils passed out, and I hope you'll
write your questions. To save time and keep from having
repetition, I'd like you to write your questions, pass them to
the end of the aisle; we'll bring them up here, and that way I
can read them into the microphone, everybody can hear them,
and they can be recorded appropriately.
Let me introduce the panel before I introduce
Feather Wilson. John Ashworth is a professional geoscientist,
a senior associate with LBG Guyton and Associates. They
aren't exactly in the order in which they're seated. George
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Ozuna is the San Antonio Office Chief of the Geological
Survey. Andy Donnelly is a professional geoscientist and
hydrologist for the Texas Water Development Board. Ali
Chowdhury is a Ph.D., a professional geoscientist and
hydrologist from the Texas Water Development Board. Paul
Fredericksburg. Ron Fieseler is a professional geoscientist,
General Manager of the Blanco-Pedernales Groundwater
Conservation District based in Johnson City. And David
Jeffery is a professional geoscientist and General Manager of
the Bandera County River Authority and Groundwater District.
Let me see if I forgot anything. Oh, there's one
printed 50 copies, so please share them with your neighbors.
And when -- as the meeting ends, if you'll leave us your name
and address, we`ll print more up and get one to you if you
think it's something you'd like to save. I think that's all
the housekeeping. I'd like to introduce now Featherqail
Wilson, professional geoscientist who works for the Headwaters
Groundwater Conservation District. We have had an ongoing
contract with him for two years to build a groundwater
availability model for just Kerr County. Feather?
MR. WILSON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
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Thank you for coming. I have a brief presentation from a very
complex subject. First of all, I'd like to say that
Headwaters was created in 1991 through the legislative
process. It's one of 89 groundwater districts throughout the
state. Right now, we have 90 counties that don't have
groundwater districts out of 254 counties. The primary goal
of Headwaters is groundwater conservation. It consists -- the
board consists of five elected members, four employees, and
one geological consultant, namely myself. Headwaters
priorities include groundwater research in Kerr County,
long-range planning, policy decisions based upon science and
data, Groundwater conservation, of course. Public education
is a big aspect of this, and cooperation and coordination with
surrounding counties, the state, and federal agencies.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MR. WILSON: Excuse me. Glad you reminded me. I
don't know what's happening. Something always goes wrong in
these talks. At any rate, what we've been doing is doing a
lot of very detailed research. When I say detailed research,
I mean research about drilling wells. Headwaters actually
drills their own monitoring wells. We've drilled seven thus
far entirely through the cretaceous system, which is the total
section here in the county. We're drilling, on average, about
three monitoring wells per year. We're also performing our
own pump tests with our own pump. We actually are pump
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testing not only the wells that we drill, but other people's
i wells too, to get the information that we need to go into a
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MR. WILSON: Before we get into our goals and our
priorities and how we're doing, I'd like to give you a little
background information on groundwater, how the water gets into
the subsurface, how it flows through the subsurface. We've
got a slide on the screen now called "The Water Cycle." The
water that we get in our county is derived from rainfall, dew,
and ice and snow lately, and that water stays in the
atmosphere from the Gulf of Mexico and from the Pacific Ocean;
most likely the Pacific Ocean in the recent past because of E1
Nino. Stays in the atmosphere about two weeks, then it falls
to the surface. Some of that water that falls to the surface
on the western side of our county is from and goes into what's
called the Edwards group of limestones. That Edwards group is
a -- is a cavernous, cavernous sponge, so it's an unconfined
aquifer, which means it's not confined by anything. The water
table is right near the -- near the top of this, and there's
nothing between the water surface and the atmosphere.
But most of our water that we have in wells comes
from below something that's a blanket of -- a layer of clay
250 feet thick below the Edwards, and that's called the Upper
Glen Rose. The Upper Glen Rose is a confining unit. In other
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words, most of our wells, except for the Edwards wells, are in
That's what we're going to
is covered by the Edwards, and the rest of the county is
covered by the Upper Glen Rose, which is the blanket of clay,
most of our wells are in the lower units, such as the Hensel,
the Cow Creek, the Lower Trinity, also known as the Hosston,
H-o-s-s-t-o-n. The confining units, confining -- there are
two confin'~ng units within that sequence of aquifers. One is
called the Hammett/Sligo, which is a very -- very strong, very
effective confining unit. Water moves through it, but very,
very slowly. In the Edwards, probably the age of the water is
going to be 400, 500 years old, hundreds of years. We have
been doing isotope studies in the confined units, and they
vary in age from 20,000 to 28,000 years old. Water is very
old in this county in the confined units.
Another view of the water cycle shows both rainfall
entering the surface on an unconfined unit, such as the
Edwards, going into the streams -- our streams. We have very
strong springs. Our springs average -- for the last 70 years,
they've averaged 164 cubic feet per second, which is a lot of
water running down the streams each day. The city of
Kerrville uses a lot of that water for the city, for the city
system. And that is a good thing, 'cause it's taking a lot of
pressure off the aquifers. But we also have something called
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evapotranspiration. In this county, we have 61 inches of
evapotranspiration per year. We only have 30 inches of
rainfall on average, which means we have a two and a half foot
deficit of evaporation, evapotranspiration each year in
comparison to the rainfall. That means we're in a very
definite semi-arid area, and so conservation is a big issue.
You might wonder about your water levels. A lot of
And
confined units. Rainfall recharges the outcrop, really, in
the confined units, not in this county. Rainfall recharges
from Gillespie and Kimble Counties, primarily. And what
happens is that the water molecules don't move very fast when
it recharges. It dries up during the dry years, which you've
had two years of, until very recently. And it gets wet -- the
outcrop gets very wet during good years, which we have several
good years, previous good years. But the water ages that we
produce from are still thousands and thousands of years old.
So, how does your water level rise? Your water
level rises -- you can see from this slide at the top, when
it's dry, the outcrop over ~n Fredericksburg, Junction and
that area, it takes the pressure off the water levels of -- in
addition to the fact that you're pumping it. When it gets
wet, that pressure pushes on that whole column of water, that
whole system of water, and when that pressure increases from
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the outcrop, and during a good year, it rises. The pressure
rises. So, your water levels are really a manifestation of
pressure rather than water molecules themselves moving down
sands that feed all the confined aquifers in this county was
100 years old. Thirty miles away at the Johnson Creek R.V.
Park on 27, the water proved to be 25,880 years old. So, that
water is moving very, very slowly. It's moving. A11 water is
moving. But it's moving extremely slowly.
So, that blanket of water -- that blanket of clay
that overlies the county and underlies the Edwards, which
is -- again, is the Upper Glen Rose, doesn't really allow much
water to get into the -- into the underlying confined
aquifers. Most of that water runs off. So, our water is not
coming into those aquifers from this county; it's coming in
from adjacent counties. Except for the Edwards; the Edwards
is local. Locally derived water, and it's also water derived
from the west, primarily, and the southwest from Real and
Edwards County for the Edwards group of limestones. So, a
confined aquifer -- uh-oh. Confined aquifer is an aquifer
that has a pressure surface that goes up and down with what
happens near the outcrop or where the sands are. You're
familiar with the sands of the L.B.J. Ranch and the peach
25 ~ trees. That's where -- that's where the Hensel outcrops.
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That's where we get most of our water from in the confined
units.
I'll just go on. Groundwater management. We want
to know several things. We have to ask ourselves several
questions. How much groundwater exists in this county? Where
is it? Is it a finite resource? If it's 28,000 years old, as
far as mankind is concerned, it is a finite resource. Are
there areas of the county where groundwater is depleting? The
answer is yes. Are there areas in the county where
groundwater is plentiful? The answer is yes. It's
site-specific. So, how should we conserve groundwater? How
should we approach the conservation issue? These are some of
the questions and some of the things we want to achieve. And
what is the recipe for groundwater management? Where do we
start to unravel the mysteries of, really, the subsurface, and
how do we set policy based upon science in deference to
arm-waving? It's not a simple answer. These are complex
questions and complex answers.
There's a -- a spectrum of -- a yield spectrum in
your notes, and we can either go and pump all the water out of
the ground and leave nothing there, at one end of the
spectrum, or we cannot pump any water out, or we can try to
reach a conservation point or sustainability point somewhere
in between. That's not my job; that's the job of policy
makers. And the yield spectrum -- if you have water, for
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example, in the unconfined areas, such as the Edwards, a safe
yield would be recharge versus discharge. We don't want to
discharge any more than we recharge. Sustainable yield might
be to the -- to the right of that, something that we want to
economy of the county. So, it wouldn't be just a safe -- a
safe yield; it would be a sustainable yield. That's
particularly true with the Edwards formation. It's not
necessarily true of the units below that. The un -- the
confined units -- there is a problem, because if we continue
to produce water at higher and higher rates with more and more
wells, we will reach a point where we have to face the fact
that we say to ourselves, "How much do we want to mine?" And
in terms of mankind, not in terms of geologic time. It will
recharge, but if it's 28,000 years old, how long is it going
to take for us to mine that water out? That depends on
population and economy, fuel costs, people move here or don't
move here.
If you look at the Texas population, Texas
Kerr County has tracked the growth of Texas almost on a -- a
percentage-by-percentage basis up to this point. The Texas
Water Development Board, as I understand it, believes that
this county -- this county's population will decline or level
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that's true of many rural counties. That's the way they look
at all the rural counties. Well, I don't look at it that way.
I think it'll continue to track the State's population, and by
the time 2050 rolls around, we'll have 86,000 people in this
county, rather than 40-some-odd thousand. And in Region J,
under Jonathan Letz' leadership, we had to borrow population
from other counties in order to bring our county up to -- this
county up to what it was, what we think it's going to be,
'cause none of us believed that it was going to decline.
Those are -- those are observations that you can either think
about or disagree with. I -- I would say that we're not going
to decline. These tough questions we're trying to answer
require really flexible answers. Thank you. And the concept
of groundwater moving through the subsurface --
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MR. WILSON: The concept of groundwater moving
for most people, and most people don't really understand
groundwater. Some people think "groundwater" means water on
the ground. It means water under the ground, and it is very,
very complex. So, in order to get at how groundwater moves,
you have to really understand the plumbing of the subsurface,
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thoroughly understand the plumbing of the subsurface. And a
groundwater model that we're creating, which is called a GAM,
is only as good as the data you put into it, only as good as
the interpretation you make, the amount of data and the
quality of data that you have on hand. That's not to say that
it's not a dynamic model. It is. This numerical model can be
added to, changed, edited, et cetera, through time. But it's
-- nevertheless, you have to start with an extremely thorough
understanding of the subsurface.
And two years ago, we began to work on this. Not
the model itself. The models -- this is part of the model --
part of the model process. You have to really get into the
geology. That means drilling wells. That means monitoring
wells. That means making cross-sections like you saw a while
ago. We made many cross-sections of many maps, 36 primary
maps, by hand, and many more maps -- sketch maps, et cetera,
cross-sections beyond that, many of which are available at our
head office -- at the Headwaters office here, if you're
interested, as 8 1/2-by-11 handouts. Those maps on the -- on
the wall are available as handouts. You can see the logs over
here on the left. That's a lithologic log on the left and a
geophysical log on the right. All of the cross-sections that
I've made for the county, they're all based upon both
geophysical logs and lithologic logs. That means I actually
went to the wells while they were drilling, used a microscope
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and described the samples every 10 feet, plus geophysically
logged -- I'll show you. I'll talk more about that in a
minute.
So, a GAM, or a groundwater availability model,
requires a lot of this preliminary information gathering and
interpretation, and it requires a lot of drilling wells. See
that cross-section? It's on the -- on the slide now, so how
-- the first step, actually, in -- in getting to a groundwater
model, getting into the -- into the geometry of the model
itself, is to have monitoring wells. And I don't mean just
using people's wells that we've already had. It means
drilling wells, which we've -- we've done. It means examining
those samples, and in great detail. It means performing and
running geophysical logs. Some of you geologists in the
audience know what that is. Others don't. I'll explain that
in a minute. It requires age-dating the water to find out how
fast the water is moving and where it is coming from. We're
in the midst of that right now. It involves pump tests.
Headwaters bought their own pump and is performing their own
pump tests, because we don't have any other data. We have to
do it ourselves, so we are doing that. And we will pump test
people's wells, private wells, public wells. We get that
data, and it goes into our model. We're now monitoring 22
wells, of which seven we have drilled ourselves.
This is an elevation model called a digital
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elevation model. It's part of the GAM process. A digital
elevation model is a very detailed elevation model. It stands
at the top of the layer of a GAM model. It's very important
to have a good -- a good model -- detailed model. If you'll
look at the red areas, the red areas are the high elevations.
It goes down to the yellows and the greens, and finally the
blues; those are the lower elevations to the eastern side of
the county. This surface in Kerr County developed over the
last six and a half million years. The area was uplifted
during an era called the Miocene. That uplift then began to
erode, and creating all these verdant valleys that we see
today, and it's still eroding, still making valleys. This map
is available at the Headwaters office.
Kerr County was a Cretaceous sea 199 million years
ago up until about 99 million years ago. That sea was
surrounding a very big island complex called the Llano Uplift
or the Llano Island area. Most of the sands and the gravels
within our aquifers are derived from the Llano Uplift, and
these are -- these are -- we have mostly -- most of our
aquifers are sands and gravels. We have one carbonate aquifer
in the confined units that's known as the Cow Creek, but even
the Cow Creek is sand in many areas. The Edwards is our main
carbonate or limestone aquifer, and it's not a high-yield
aquifer, except for the springs. The springs are very
high-yielding. So, there was a barrier reef, like the Great
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Barrier Reef of Australia, that extended from the Yucatan
this huge, massive lagoon that we lived in. You could
literally wade from island to island during that period of
time. That is, if you could get away from the dinosaurs.
There are a lot of dinosaur tracks in this county.
Looking at the stratigraphy in a very tidy
fashion -- believe me, it's not this tidy, but in a tidy
fashion, you can see that the Edwards, the Glen Rose, the
Pearsall and Sligo, the Hosston are all formations, Notice to
the right-hand side, you'll see the Trinity nomenclature.
Trinity nomenclature is a nomenclature that's frequently used
in the water business, but not in the oil business any more.
You can see why. For example, the Middle Trinity incorporates
Hammett. All of those units are accounted for in my model.
The main producing aquifers we have in the county are the
Edwards, the Lower Glen Rose, the Hensel, the Cow Creek, and
the Hosston.
Many of you know these terms as Middle Trinity or
Lower Trinity, but Middle Trinity and Lower Trinity is a broad
term, covers many different aquifers with many different
parameters, so I don't generally use those terms. But they
are commonly used in water literature. There's very little
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water in the Upper Glen Rose. They're minor limestones. And
the Hosston/Sligo really doesn't amount to much in this county
either, because it's only confined to the southeast corner of
the county. It does -- it does form a pretty good-sized
aquifer in other counties, but not this one. So, we mostly
have a sand-prone confined aquifer system.
Now, I said that that was a pretty tidy looking
i cross-section or stratigraphic section. This is a
cross-section that runs from Llano to Bandera. You can see
it's not as tidy as the stratigraphic section you just looked
at. The main producing area, the main source of water we have
is that yellow blob up there called the Hensel. That yellow
blob furnishes most of our water in the confined units. All
of it is connected to that area down dip -- downgraded, except
for the Edwards. Then we have this confining unit again in
the Upper Glen Rose, with the Edwards on top of it in the
western and northwestern side of the counties. Kerr County is
also underlying in certain parts right here in this courthouse
by the Ellenburger Group, which is a dolomite in the
Palaeozoic era. That dolomite is the main producing interval
in Gillespie County, yet we haven't tried to work with that
unit here in this county. It's possible that we still have
some exploration to do within the -- within the Ellenburger
right here in the city and over on the eastern side of the
county, although we haven't tried it yet.
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Here's a detailed geologic map of the county. The
blue areas are the two Edwards -- really, formations in the
Edwards Group. The lower unit, the lighter blue, is where
most of the water comes out of the springs. The light green
is the Upper Glen Rose which underlies the Edwards. And
there's a dark green -- very small piece of dark green, which
is the Lower Glen Rose near Comfort. There is one major fault
in the county that I found; it's near Comfort. There's
another fault that David Jeffery told me about at Bandera
Pass, a large fault. Could be the same fault as the one I'm
describing. This is probably the most detailed geologic map
you've ever seen. There's even a little Middle Cretaceous out
to the west, which is the Buda and the Del Rio, some remnants
of that out there. Actually, if you look at the coal in some
of the -- in some of the Upper Glen Rose, and you run
something called vitrinite reflectance on it, you'll find that
there was over 5,000 feet of section on top of all what you
see now at six and a half million years. That's been eroded
off.
We have an interactive map, our GIS. We work with
GIS a lot. We have an interactive map, and you can click on
your well, and up comes all the information on your well.
We're expanding that. We're working on that constantly. We
have a full-time employee working on that, so that you'll be
able to come into our office, click on a well; you'll see all
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information on it, plus information we're adding to it. So,
that's a very handy -- handy item that we work with, and it's
a necessary item to use with a -- to the GAM model. Here are
the type of logs we have. There's two on the wall over here
like this. One's a lithologic log, one's a geophysical log.
We've run these on every deep well that we can find that the
landowner will let us, or we'll drill our own wells in many
cases, which is very -- a very handy thing to do. The
geophysical log is a -- is a log that's been used in the oil
business and in this country since about 1936. We're now
running these types of logs, and a lot of this comes out of
the oil industry. We now have logs that we can run that will
give us information that we could never get before;
geophysical logs, direct hydraulic conductivity logs, direct
porosity logs. They're expensive compared to the cost of a
well -- a water well. They're still expensive, but they give
you a great deal of information.
So, now we finally -- after we've gone through all
this, we get down to the GAM steps. First of all, we have to
have good surface and good subsurface -- we really have to
know the geometry, understand the movement of water. We're
building a model based upon three-dimensional cells. We're
utilizing data that reflects the movement of groundwater
within each individual cell. We're testing the model against
real water levels, real pump tests, et cetera. We're not at
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that point yet. We have -- I have actually created the model
to the point where I now have all the geometry in the model,
which is 12,000 cells -- approximately 12,000 cells. We'll be
able to predict the violability of various areas over the next
50 years by asking these what-if questions of the model --
numerical model. And we can continue to refine that model
from this point forward.
How to use a GAM. These are the cells, the surface
cells, square mile basis in the county. This is actually a
screen shot from the model; covers 708,488 acres. It has 10
layers. Ten layers deep, and that approximates to about
12,000 cells. Data has to be placed within each -- each
individual cell on a three-dimensional basis. From that, you
can make contour maps of water levels, contour maps of all
kinds of information, all kinds of data, and other maps can
be -- can be constructed, which I've done. They present
various forms of data, such as hydraulic conductivity, which
is how fast the water is moving through the surface,
subsurface, or other hydrogeologic parameters. These are some
of the cells. This is one cell representing -- representing
several layers, different types of data you can put in each
individual cell, so you can see this becomes an extremely
complex numerical problem.
This is an actual screen shot of a cross-section
through a column through the county. You can see that I've
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labeled the Edwards, the Upper Glen Rose, the Lower Glen Rose,
the Hensel. The Hensel, by the way, changes in conductivity
across the county; it's not all the same. It's higher in some
areas, lower in others. That's true of the Hosston also,
although those are refinements that have come later. I've
actually finished putting in all the conductivity, storativity
or storage coefficient, which you probably don't know what
that means, but how much water is in storage for each
individual cell throughout the county, in one water level map.
I've done the Edwards; I'm now working on water levels in the
other aquifers for the ten layers that go into this -- into
this study.
If you look at the Texas Water Development Board
GAMS, they have two GAMS that cover this area, overlap each
other to some degree. One is the Edwards Trinity. The second
one is the Trinity Hill Country. Trinity Hill Country has
four layers. The Edwards Trinity has two layers. Correct me
if I'm wrong; I think that's correct. And my -- my GAM is
incorporating 10 layers, so those 10 layers make -- make the
whole problem much more complex. But in order to understand
the plumbing and really get down to the movement and make
50-year predictions, I felt it necessary to include all of the
units, all of the aquifers and all of the aquitars between the
aquifers in order to come to a better conclusion and make
better decisions and to make better predictions. So, I'm
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still working on refining the data that goes into each
individual cell. Even though I have kind of a cross-map for
each -- each individual aquifer and aquitar, I'm still working
on the refinements, especially some areas.
If you look over here to your -- to your right,
there's a map on the wall, hand-drawn. It shows some brown
spots, some brown areas. We think those areas are areas -- we
know those areas are where we have 300 feet of draw down,
300 feet of zone of capture. That's a serious problem. Aqua
Texas drilled two wells in one of those brown spots recently,
last year. Wells that we would normally expect to make 250
gallons a minute made 30 gallons a minute. And there's
another well north of Ingram, same thing. A well that should
have made 250 gallons a minute made 30 gallons a minute. This
is out of the Lower Trinity. That's a red flag, very definite
red flag, and so we do have areas that we suspect are
depleted. There are three areas. One area is out in
Kerrville South. The second area is between Center Point and
Comfort, and third area is the Upper Turtle Creek area, which
is reflected in that map and other maps we're making, too.
Now, if you consider those areas to be drawn down
300 feet regionally, and then you add that to the 28,000,
25,000-year water, that should definitely raise a red flag.
So, we have some very good areas, though. We have one area
north of town up in the Mountain Home area, the Goat Creek
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news. We're also doing quite a large effort on isotope
dating, and our isotope dating is helping us decide how fast
the water is moving, where it's moving from and to. So, we
have discovered very strong areas. We have depleting aquifer
areas. We have severe draw down areas, which I've just
and from other wells that are being drilled.
We do -- we have a lot of cooperation going on with
surrounding districts. I speak to the surrounding district
managers constantly; once a week, probably, or more. We're
also communicating with the U.S.G.S. on our isotope work.
Part of the effort today is to communicate with the Texas
Water Development Board, County Commissioners, public
education, press, Region J, City of Kerrville. We try to
educate. We try to cooperate and offer our data and our
interpretation to all of these entities. We have a website
that's growing. A lot of the maps, interpretations, news, et
cetera, is on this website, and I suggest that you go to the
website, take a look at what we have on there and what we're
going to have in the future. And right now, I'd like to turn
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it over to the panel or the audience, I guess, and however you
MS. SUMMERLIN: I want the panel to each respond,
one by one, anybody who wants to, to whatever extent they want
to. And -- and there are microphones on the desk, so just
sort of pass that around or come to the podium, either way.
Do you want to start, John?
MR. ASHWORTH: Okay. Thank you, Feather. That's
quite interesting. First of all, I'd like to say that the --
from the regional water planning perspective, we really
appreciate the effort that the Headwaters district -- the work
that they did in participating with all the work that went
into the regional planning process. The district was
certainly a key partner in -- in that process. Also, I think
the district's doing a great job of the monitoring effort.
I'm aware of what a lot of the districts are doing in the
state, and I think that Headwaters is probably ahead of most
other districts in not only just going out and measuring water
levels, but making some sense of it and understanding why you
don't just take one measurement a year and feel that that
satisfies the need for -- for meeting a statutory requirement.
So, the district's certainly doing a very good job there.
I think, also, the amount of -- of technical work
that the district is doing through you, Feather, is very
commendable. That's certainly what is required before you can
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take that next step, is to understand that underground
plumbing, as you said. So, once again, I commend the district
for that. There's a lot of information that's being
cooperating with the Water Development Board in terms of
getting that information back to the state, and what your
attitude is about that. Because a lot of other entities, such
as the regional water planning process, really use that Water
Development Board groundwater database for all the work that's
done, and a lot of other people rely on it. So, if you want
your information to have a lot of -- a lot of punch to it,
then I think it's real key that a strong coordination with the
Water Development Board be maintained.
Another aspect that, over the last two or three
planning	-- Region	J planning process,	the planning group
members	pretty much	established a -- a	definition of
groundwater availability in terms of how it relates to surface
water flows. In -- in terms of the groundwater being the
origin of the spring flow that flows into the streams, and
recognizing that the surface water is a key component to the
economic vitality of the area, and in order to maintain the
stream flows, you have to maintain the groundwater flow. So,
25 ~ again, I -- I would think that that should be a key component
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in your overall aims of trying to understand the entire
In fact, in terms of the monitoring network, I think
it would be very interesting -- and maybe y'all are already
doing this, but to try and identify some key springs out there
and be able to maintain a weir on it such that you can note
what the continuous flow is, and then be able to coordinate
that directly back with groundwater rises and declines. And
then I think at that point in time, you start being able to
tell the story of, if our groundwater is depleted, here's
what's going to happen to our surface water. I'm not sure if
we're totally there yet, but --
MR. WILSON: Well, we have been -- regulations
No permitted wells will be
drilled in the Edwards aquifer. That's to preserve the spring
flow. We don't have a lot of pressure on our Edwards aquifer
right now. We are monitoring spring flow, and we do plan
to -- actually, in the model, I'm using spring flow and actual
flow rates, averages over many years, to back into the model.
And -- because, actually, the Edwards is one of the most
complex, most difficult aspects of modeling -- of the model,
because it's not -- it's a karsted system. That means it's a
cavernous system, and when you're trying to model a cavernous
system, you become -- you start -- you start estimating -- you
start using equations that were never meant to be used in a
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karsted system. So, you actually have to use empirical data.
If you don't have that empirical data, your model's not going
to work too well in the Edwards.
MR. ASHWORTH: In terms of the modeling aspect,
whether it's a GAM type model or if it's just strictly a water
budget, a simple time model, half of the -- of the question
that needs to be answered is, how much water is being pulled
out? And I'm kind of curious to know where the district is in
terms of trying to quantify pumping.
MR. WILSON: Well, I actually -- actually did that
yesterday, and in anticipation of this question. And if you
add up the wells and you add up the irrigation on our permits,
plus the exempt wells, we're actually producing 11,840
acre-feet per year right now. Now, that equates to
242 gallons per person in this county. That means we're using
more water in this county per person than some other counties,
although some counties are 250. But we're now at -- that
11,840 acre-feet is at -- is actually at what we projected for
the year 2050.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Feather, that is not accurate.
That includes -- including irrigation.
MR. WILSON: That's including everything.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But other counties that use,
like -- you know, grow any kind of produce, their per capita
is in the thousands, because --
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MR. WILSON: Right. I think ours is.
MS. SUMMERLIN: No, but compared -- I think what he
was talking about is, compared to what the Region J projection
was for 2050.
MR. WILSON: In other words, we're close to the
projection that we projected 50 or 40 years hence. That is --
I can -- I can make that estimate two ways. I can say we're
either between 8,000 and 11,000, but somewhere in there.
We're -- let's say 10,000. That's what we projected for this
county for 2040, 2060.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Irrigation?
MR. WILSON: No, not for irrigation.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But you're including irrigation.
MR. WILSON: Including everything, yeah. I think I
remember that. Which is -- kind of bothers me.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought we were higher than
that. You may be right. I don't think our -- our numbers --
MR. WILSON: Again, that's again based upon the
drought of record. And -- but we're up -- we're up there.
Either way you look at it, we're way up there. We're
producing a lot of water, and let's say it's 10,000 acre-feet
a year. I could -- I could make a case for 8,000 or 11,000,
and that's a lot of water.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But --
MS. SUMMERLIN: Were you going to go further, John,
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with other points?
MR. ASHWORTH: I had just one more.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Go ahead.
MR. ASHWORTH: It appears to me that the district
is -- is basically building this model as being their
management tool, which -- which that's good. My question is,
how does this model fit in with the other work that the other
districts in the hill country are doing in order to be able to
all work together to -- to create a future desired condition?
MS. SUMMERLIN: Exactly. Exactly. Maybe that'll
come up more when these guys speak.
MR. WILSON: Well, the other districts are also
creating local models. Gillespie County has created a model
in southeastern Gillespie County. David Jeffery with Bandera
is creating a model around the city of Bandera, right? Is
that correct?
MR. JEFFERY: I think it's going to be the whole
county.
MR. WILSON:
everything?
MR. JEFFERY:
MR. WILSON:
glad to hear it. We -
MR. JEFFERY:
MR. WILSON:
Whole county for the Hosston? Or
For everything.
Everything. So, that's great. I'm
Probably won't have 10 layers in it.
I -- he's got a simpler county than
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1 this one.
2
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4 district
5 architect
6 is the ur
MS. SUMMERLIN: Let's let George have a turn.
MR. OZUNA: You've done an excellent job, and the
aquifer system. It is very, very complicated. It's -- you've
got intertonguing formations, and that's why you've gone to a
very complicated 10-layer; you've done a lot of preliminary
hydrogeologic or geologic assessments in better understanding
aquifer architecture, and you're well on your way in trying to
understand that. Kind of following from John, I'm a little
concerned on the water budget. With 10 layers, you're going
to need a lot of information for each of those individual
layers for hydrologic conductivity. That probably shouldn't
be backed into, or storage coefficient, and where's that
information coming from? From the pump tests?
MR. WILSON: From the pump tests.
MR. OZUNA: Okay.
most complex unit I'm dealing with. The other units are based
upon pump tests, and I know not just pump tests, but pump
tests is a big part of it. But another aspect of it is that I
have regional geologic maps where I show draw down areas.
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MR. OZONA: Right.
MR. WILSON: I know the storage is not going to be
as high in those areas as in others, so I have to go back and
refine those individual cells within that -- within that
particular unit in order to come down, bring that storage
storativity down to lower levels, and it will be outside of
that area. Now, again, it's still -- it's still based upon
estimates.
MR. OZUNA: Right.
MR. WILSON: Because we still don't have vast
amounts of data that we need.
MR. OZUNA: Yeah.
MR. WILSON: But it's a dynamic model, and as time
goes on, we can continue to refine it.
MR. OZUNA: Recharge. Recharge to the Edwards is
being computed how?
MR. WILSON: Well, I'm going to -- my next big
isotope project is going to be based on the Edwards and where
it's coming from and how fast --
MR. OZUNA: Not where it's coming from. How much?
Quantifying it.
MR. WILSON: Well, quantifying it, I have to
actually look at the spring flow and then come back from the
spring flow to the Edwards.
MR. OZUNA: Why not use --
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MR. WILSON: I can use -- I have used --
MR. OZUNA: -- rainfall data?
MR. WILSON: I have used --
MR. OZUNA: And stream flow.
MR. WILSON: -- used stream flow as part of it. I'm
not -- I used stream flow and actually backed in with the
numbers. But I have not used stream flow -- it's not -- I'm
not applying it yet to my model.
MR. OZUNA: But you will --
MR. WILSON: I will.
MR. OZUNA: -- look at it?
MR. WILSON: Yes.
MR. OZUNA: Okay. I think that's a big component
here that I see that's probably either missing, because I
think there's -- there's some big gaps in the stream flow
network for the Edwards.
MR. WILSON: Yes, there are.
MR. OZUNA: Through the county.
MR. WILSON: Well, we're also -- we're also
monitoring the spring flow as well as using USGS gauging.
MR. OZUNA: That's part of the picture, but I think
still there's pieces missing as far as the hydrologic budget.
MR. WILSON: Absolutely. And there's going to be
pieces missing far beyond my -- far beyond my tenure. we're
still going to have to add to this and refine it for many
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years.
MR. OZUNA: So, we're looking at a completely --
first cut, here's where we are? Okay.
MR. WILSON: Absolutely.
MR. OZUNA: Okay. All right, that's all I have.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Thanks, George. Andy?
MR. DONNELLY: Well, I will follow up -- I agree
with what both George and John have said. I tend to get into
the -- the nitty-gritty a little more of the model. I'm
looking forward to actually seeing the model files in a
detailed report with a lot of the -- the data on it. And not
-- there's not a lot of the data that's been presented here.
And I will certainly have a whole lot more to add once we're
able to see the files.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Can I ask a question of you, Andy?
From Texas Water Development Board, is there -- is there any
problem with our submitting this data to you on a, you know,
piecemeal basis before we get it all done?
MR. DONNELLY: No, there's no problem. The more
data that we can get and the quicker that we can get it, the
better.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Good. So we don't have to wait
until this thing is, quote, done; that is, we've done all our
steps.
MR. WILSON: I need all the help I can get.
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MS. SUMMERLIN: Never exactly be done, but --
MR. DONNELLY: No, I mean --
MS. SUMMERLIN: That's good news.
MR. DONNELLY: I think we would like to see that. I
mean, we have the fourth layer of the model -- the hill
country model being added right now, and that would help that.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Sure.
MR. DONNELLY: I'm not sure if there's -- if our
modeler has actually gotten any of that. I don't know of any,
myself.
MR. WILSON: That was another question --
MR. DONNELLY: We would like as much as we can get.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Right.
MR. WILSON: That was another question that was
answered -- asked by John Ashworth, is that how are we getting
this data to -- or information or interpretation to the Texas
Water Development Board? And that is a problem. That is not
only a problem here in Kerr County; it's a problem in all the
counties, in that, far as I know -- I do a lot of water
availability studies and pump tests in other counties on a
commercial basis or consulting basis. Some counties are
better at submitting that data to the Texas Water Development
Board than others, and far as I know, most of my studies in
Bandera and Gillespie County have been submitted to the Texas
Water Development Board. Is that correct?
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MR. TYBOR: We haven't yet. They're available, but
we haven't.
MR. WILSON: And there's a lot of data in this
information. I do a lot of -- a lot of water availability
studies, and, you know, I never know what happens to it.
MS. SUMMERLIN: But the -- but our GAM research, we
certainly do, and we can.
MR. WILSON: Yes, I'll be happy to share it with
I You.
MS. SUMMERLIN: That's great.
MR. WILSON: And seek your help. And I've got -- in
20 minutes -- I mean, I could talk four hours about what's
going on, but it -- I can't do it in 20 minutes.
MR. DONNELLY: Typically, what we'll do with the
GAMs that we're having our contractors develop, and even our
internal GAMS, is that there will be a data evaluation
development and evaluation process, and then sort of midway
through the project, there will be a conceptual model report
that we stop and -- and we'll review the data. We'll review
the conceptual model, and it will actually be submitted at
this point, and then we will review it and give the okay to go
ahead and actually start the model. That's one of the ways
during the GAM process that --
MS. SUMMERLIN: And could that -- and could that
process be available to somebody like Headwaters, that you
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didn't contract with in the first place?
MR. DONNELLY: I think that we would be amenable to
reviewing --
MS. SUMMERLIN: 'Cause I think we'd love that. I --
right, Feather?
MR. WILSON: Sure. Yeah.
MR. DONNELLY: I mean, I don't think that would be a
problem.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Cool.
MR. WILSON: Let me tell you about the software I'm
using -- use as a detail --
MS. SUMMERLIN: Wait, you guys. Before you do that,
that gets kind of technical, and we have had people here for
an hour and we haven't taken any of their questions yet, so I
think I'll ask you to hold that.
MR. DONNELLY: I do have one technical question.
MS. SUMMERLIN: I want to hear from every member of
the panel. Maybe Feather -- we got a tape. Don't answer;
just let them ask. We'll come back.
MR. DONNELLY: Are the figures that you showed of
your model cells back here, are those the extent of your
active versus inactive cells?
MR. MORGAN: Yes, I have both active and inactive
cells on there.
MR. DONNELLY: 'Cause it looks like the active cells
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were drawn basically along the county boundary.
MR. WILSON: That's right.
MR. DONNELLY: Okay. That is not optimal. You'll
want to push that back, because as you noted earlier in your
report -- your presentation, groundwater flow does not stick
to groundwater. Typically, what you want to do is you'll want
to push the active portions of your model back so that you
eliminate boundary effects.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Right.
MR. DONNELLY: And for a county like this, you would
have -- have it squared off. So, that would be all that I can
really comment on technically, is that --
MR. WILSON: Good suggestion. Yeah, it's -- it's a
good suggestion. Now, you talked about that, and talked about
it in terms of policy decision, that they're paying me to work
in Kerr County.
MS. SUMMERLIN: And that's where that comes from, of
course. You know, we're wanting to use this for --
MR. WILSON: Push that envelope out beyond the
county.
MR. DONNELLY: But you will have -- you need to be
aware of that, because --
MS. SUMMERLIN: Good.
MR. DONNELLY: -- when you're putting down a
boundary like that, you could impact calibrations and such in
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and close to those areas. And you don't have to necessarily
spend a lot of time or effort getting lots of data, but as
long as you have active cells outside of your Kerr County
area.
MS. SUMMERLIN: To make sure to check it.
MR. DONNELLY: To allow the model to --
MS. SUMMERLIN: Yeah.
MR. WILSON: Good point. Thank you.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Ali?
MR. CHOWDHURY: For the -- the recharge, how are you
going to model the recharge? Following the same questions
that George and Andy had.
MR. WILSON: Two ways.
MR. CHOWDHURY: The water is very old, right?
MR. WILSON: Two ways to model it. One is that
isotope work, and the second one is the geometry or the
plumbing; that I understand if I don't understand the plumbing
and I don't understand how fast it's moving, I can't really do
a decent model, I don't think.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MS. SUMMERLIN: Any others?
MR. CHOWDHURY: It's going to be a complex model.
MR. WILSON: Yes.
MR. CHOWDHURY: That's -- because I'm involved in
the initial development of the Hill Country Trinity, and
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putting together a conceptual model, that's step one. And to
calibrate a model, that's another big step.
MR. WILSON: That's where the rubber meets the road,
is the calibration.
MS. SUMMERLIN: And we're two years into what we
think is a four-year project. Paul?
MR. TYBOR: Okay. First off, I think Headwaters is
certainly doing some really fine work in getting the technical
base up and running.
AUDIENCE: Could you speak into the mic?
MR. TYBOR: Headwaters is certainly -- is that on?
Yeah. All right, I'll hold it. Headwaters has certainly
gotten on board as far as getting their technical database up
and running, and you've got to have that to do that, which in
turn helps the board make decisions on their rules and their
management. The districts up here in the hill country, we are
certainly cooperating. The model that I've developed, I've
given to Ron. Water level data, all that's available. So,
there's a lot of cooperation amongst all the districts up
here.
MR. FIESELER: Okay, I'll expand on that a little
bit. I think all groundwater districts have similar problems
that y'all are dealing with here in the Kerr County area
regarding the aquifer research and -- and water availability,
such as that. Working together regionally to understand these
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overlapping aquifers, which Feather touched on briefly, I
think, is -- is really, really critical to the process. The
work that Headwaters is doing is going to be useful to perhaps
eight or ten groundwater districts within a very large
regional area; three, maybe four regional planning groups, one
to two groundwater management area groups that are working on
groundwater management processes. The regional cooperation is
the best thing we can do right now for our aquifers and our
aquifer users. Just to put a thought in your head, a lot of
people worry about what their next door neighbor's doing as to
how it's going to affect their well. You may be better off
worrying about what's happening one or two or three counties
away.
MR. JEFFERY: Do I have it? Okay. I'll get closer
to it, okay. Yeah, I think the work that's being done here is
good, and hope to be able to extend it on down into Bandera
County. Only thing to say is, be conservative on the Lower
Trinity up here, where it ends up. (Laughter.)
MR. FIESELER: That's what I said.
MR. JEFFERY: One other thing. Clarify the Edwards
aquifer, the difference between the Edwards Plateau and the
Edwards Aquifer at San Antone.
MR. WILSON: The Edwards in San Antonio is known as
the BFZ, or the Balcones Fault Zone. The Edwards out here on
the hills is a whole different situation. The BF -- actually,
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the San Antonio area, which the U.S.G.S. has done a wonderful
job on, those wells are making 5,000 gallons a minute, some of
them without any draw down. A tremendous, tremendous aquifer.
We -- that's not our Edwards aquifer. Our Edwards aquifer
might make 2 gallons a minute or 5 gallons a minute if you're
lucky. So, we don't have the advantage of all that faulting
that they have in San Antonio, and opening up these huge
cavernous flow regimes. We don't have that in the hill
country. And there's a big difference between what you see on
television and what you read in the San Antonio Express about
the Edwards aquifer. That's not our Edwards aquifer. Our
Edwards aquifer is -- is much more limited than that.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Thank you. I'm aware of a bad
mistake we made, which was not giving paper and pencil to our
Commissioners, and I'm sorry, 'cause I'll take your questions
first if I can. Are they written, Bill? You said you had
some.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let Jon start. We all have
some.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Okay. Could you write them? Are
they too long to write?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't -- I mean, I can speak
loud. I think we all speak pretty loud, anyway. Question.
Something that I'd appreciate if Feather could expound on a
little bit is explaining layers.
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AUDIENCE: Can't hear.
MS. SUMMERLIN: What's in a layer? What does a
"layer" mean? And, of course, the --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well --
MS. SUMMERLIN: -- the layers of geology are the --
you know, the stratigraphy, those pieces you go down through.
The layers of the GAM model are artificial. They're --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait. What is -- okay. The
question is if Feather could explain the layers as they apply
to his model.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And how much of the actual --
the 12,000 cells, how many of those cells are filled with
actual well data, as opposed to interpretations or whatever,
if you have a well here, of actual information from those
cells.
MR. WILSON: Very few of those cells are filled with
well data. A lot of it's interpolation from wells that are
widely scattered, and information that's widely scattered.
And a "layer" is a term that is used in the model, but we
don't use that in geologic terms. We use -- that's a
modeler's term. We use lithologic units or aquifers or
formations or groups. I didn't use that type of nomenclature
today, because I think people understand layers, like layers
of paper or layers of blankets, and it's easier for them to
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MS. SUMMERLIN: So, the layers in the model,
Feather, are they a uniform depth? They're of uniform area.
MR. WILSON: They're not uniform thickness, and they
the entire model, and then I -- the ones that have changed,
what's called facies are changed from -- from a limestone to a
sand, that particular layer where the sand is is transparent
with the sand above it and the sand below it. When it comes
back to where it's in limestone, I have a different set of
parameters -- hydrogeologic parameters that go into that --
into that particular layer.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Wilson, I'm not a
geologist and I don't profess to be, and so I'm here to learn
like everybody else is today. But I want to get back to the
basics in terms of where this information comes from. Kerr
County is 1,100 square miles, and you're talking about 22
monitoring wells, which by my math, equates to about one
monitoring well for every 50 square acres -- square miles. My
question, then, is do you believe that this information that
you're gleaning from these monitor wells, wherever they need
to be, and we'd like to know where they are, does that
constitute a sufficient amount of -- of data to accurately
25 ~ reflect some of your conclusions?

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MR. WILSON: No, there's not enough wells. We don't
have enough monitoring wells, and will never have enough
monitoring wells. We need more, and we're drilling more. But
you use the data that you have, and that's all you can do.
Let me say something about the data, the wells, the well data.
There are three well databases that the state has, one of
which is the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation.
One comes from the Texas Water Development Board. A third one
comes from the Texas Commission for Environmental Quality.
All of those databases have not been blended together. Those
databases are all out there in separate files. The map you
see on the wall over here incorporates two of those databases,
which are GIS or digital databases, but two-thirds of the
wells in Texas are not digitized. Two-thirds of the wells in
Texas are in a drawer at the Texas Commission for
Environmental Quality, and nothing's being done with those
wells. So, there's a huge amount of data out there that
we're -- actually, in this legislative session, there's been
some suggestions that we actually provide some money -- or the
State Legislature provide some money so that we can get all of
that integrated into one database. Perhaps you might want to
make a remark about that.
MR. DONNELLY: I'd heard that. I wasn't sure if it
was something that was talked about being funded, or was
actually started. I had understood that they were doing a

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pilot project to start to digitize all of the well records
there at T.C.E.Q. I wasn't -- I'm not exactly sure what the
status of that is.
MR. WILSON: Well records are essentially a
nightmare for a modeler.
MR. FIESELER: I was going to --
MS. SUMMERLIN: Go ahead.
MR. FIESELER: Let me jump in here and point out,
too, that modeling and databases are -- we would never
consider them complete or perfect. They're not -- they're not
absolute ways to do absolute predictive efforts. They're a
way to get general trends and look at things on a regional
basis, and you can sometimes spot areas where you need more
research. There may be areas of the county where you only
need one well for every 50 acres or something like that -- or
50 square miles, and there may be others where you need one
for every 2 or 3 square miles. So, you look for things like
that in these models. And it's a -- it's a useful tool. It's
just not a -- it's not a hard and fast, deadly accurate one,
so everybody needs to keep that in mind. It's just a -- it's
a tool that we can use to look at trends and processes and
that sort of thing.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Bruce, did you want to go next? Or
did you --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll just wait. Why don't
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you -- Buster, do you have something?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have a specific
question, but I just wanted to remind you that our court has a
court reporter here, and she only has the ability to take down
one voice at a time, so be gentle with that.
MS. SUMMERLIN: I've got some from the audience now.
Let's start with the easiest one. Somebody wants to know,
"What is this other fluid that was on that slide?" I'm sure
it's oil. "Is there any way to determine if recharge is
keeping up with withdrawal, and if so, what's the answer?"
MR. WILSON: Well, we're just beginning to ask that
question and answer it. One of the questions is, how old is
the water? And we've had -- let me show you something, if I
can go back to this slide, get it back here. Okay. Here's a
spreadsheet. This is a spreadsheet of the isotopic -- or
isotopic ages that we've determined from various counties
recently, the radiocarbon dating and also tritium dating.
You'll notice that in the -- in Kerr County, we've done four
wells. One of them I won't have until the 2nd of February.
We have 25,880 years old; that's the Hensel sand. We have
28,000 years old, and that's an Alpine Drive well here in the
city. And we have a second opinion on one of the duplicates,
on one of the wells at the Johnson R.V. Park. That's a little
older than it was back in June. That doesn't mean it got
older from June to December, but it means we were producing
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from a different zone. In Kendall County, we have
17,000-year-old water. Bandera city well's 25,000 years old.
And Vineyard to Fredericksburg, which is just near the city of
Fredericksburg, right at it, it's 101 years old. This is out
of the same unit, this Hensel unit. And Blanco County, we had
4,800-year-old water. So, we're all -- in these counties, by
cooperating -- there's about five or six counties involved.
We're all taking water samples, submitting these samples for
various types of isotope studies. So, in order to understand
the recharge, we're trying to understand how fast the water's
coming into these areas, plus we're using a water budget to
see how fast it's coming out. Well, you know, if it's
thousands of years old and it's all in these counties -- every
county we've looked at is thousands of years, except the
outcrop -- we don't have much of a chance of recharging some
of the these lower units. In the history of mankind -- or,
you know, if we last another 28,000 years, maybe we will have.
But in the Edwards, that's a whole different situation.
Edwards is not that old. But we do it with isotope -- isotope
studies.
MS. SUMMERLIN: I have -- in another presentation,
I've heard George talk about those age-dating studies a little
bit. Do you want to say some more?
MR. OZUNA: Well, they just -- they need to be
filtered.
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MS. SUMMERLIN: Exactly.
MR. OZUNA: They don't --
MS. SUMMERLIN: I wanted to hear somebody say that.
MR. OZUNA: They're not stand-alone numbers, and
they need --
MS. SUMMERLIN: And, for example, what might make
some of this water look older than it is on a regular --
MR. OZUNA: Well, if it's moving through other
carbonate rocks, if it's moved through that limestone and
everything else.
MS. SUMMERLIN: As it moves through older rocks, it
may pick up some --
MR. OZUNA: I think it does give us a good handle on
flow paths within the formation. But the question was asked,
what is the budget? And I'm -- I still have to go back; we
need to get a handle on rainfall. We need to get a handle on
stream flow losses between -- along the Guadalupe. Those
stream flow losses will start to get you packages of spring
flow, because there are areas probably along the reaches of
the Guadalupe where more springs are moving out, and you can
see that as a combined unit, as opposed to just looking at one
spring as a trigger. So, there's all of that component of
recharge, which I don't -- I'm seeing missing in our overall
hydrologic budget year. That's my point.
MS. SUMMERLIN: We have a new plan underway -- is it
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okay to say, Ray? -- that we are working with U.G.R.A. to get
a whole lot more stream monitoring going. And you guys know
the U.S.G.S. has automated gauges up and down the river, but
The next question, "Is groundwater working with the
City to extend city water, river surface connections to
outlying areas, subdivisions, old and new, to prevent the
drilling of new wells and to relieve aquifers?" The
groundwater conservation district can conserve water two ways;
it can set pumping limits, and it can set the spacing numbers
from the property line to the well. So, those are the two
ways we can operate to conserve water. We are in consultation
with all the others all the time, and hoping, with your help
as opinion-makers in the city of Kerrville and the whole
county, to help a consensus emerge among the citizens about
how we should handle all our groundwater resources. Another
great thing that has happened lately is a conversation between
some independent water providers and the U.G.R.A., and maybe
there's some future with the river rights they've got for some
of these outlying areas. But for right now, we can't -- we
can't tell anybody they can't drill a well. We can tell them
how much they can take and how far it has to be from their --
from their property line. That's the only way we can do that.
And the second question is, "What does 2008 look
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2008?" And, remember, pumping limits only apply to the big
wells, usually the big, deep wells that pump a lot more than a
household well. If you're a household, well, you're exempt
from regulation no matter what aquifer you're in. We have had
12 permitted wells drilled last year. It's not a huge number
we're talking about. But those pumping limits were changed
last January. The rules of the Headwaters Groundwater
Conservation District say that every January, we examine the
pumping limits and change them as appropriate. In January, we
put the limit for the Hensel north up to 115,000 gallons per
acre per year, and we moved the -- in the other parts of the
county, the Hensel and the rest of the Middle Trinity to
40,000 gallons per acre per year, and the Hosston to
40,000 gallons per acre per year.
AUDIENCE: Is it -- 115,000 per what?
MS. SUMMERLIN: Per acre, per year, is the way
they're expressed in our county, pumping limits. And if we
multiply your acres times that pumping limits -- that gallons,
and you can show us that for five or six years, you've used a
lot more	water than that	and you know	it,	you'	ve metered it,
then we	can grant you an	exception.	And	our -	- our rationale
-- our rationale behind that would be, you know, your pump is
still providing water. It's been providing water at that
limit, so it probably can for another five years. Permits
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last five years.
AUDIENCE: To follow up real quick, what's a permit
cost?
MS. SUMMERLIN: Gene? What does a permit cost?
Permit application.
MR. WILLIAMS: 1,500.
MS. SUMMERLIN: $1,500. Now, a domestic well is
much less, $300. For domestic wells, you're required to make
application, but it's so we have a record. There's no limit.
We don't require you to put a meter on it. Permitted wells
have to have meters on them, and you have to send us the meter
reading once a year.
Next question, "Is it possible to have sustainable
groundwater in the future? Would it change the right of
capture rule?" Whoa, that's a complicated question. I don't
know. I don't know. The state -- the state of Texas is in an
experimental mode. I think you should know that, and I think
as Texans, you -- you'll appreciate the fact that they're
relying on the local subdivisions to do a lot of the
experimentation. We'll just have to see. The right of
capture basically says that you can take as much water as you
want to out from under your property, and that's still the
rule in Texas where there is no groundwater conservation
district. If there's a groundwater conservation district,
then they can put some limits on how much you pump.
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This question says, "I'd like to hear from any of
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you write that question?
MS. SUMMERLIN: Yes, that sounds like a setup.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the role of the County
water availability, and through water availability, you can
regulate lot sizes. So, I think that the -- I mean, the role
is -- is pretty big. And that's one of the reasons we're
participating in this meeting, is that we rely on the
technical expertise of Headwaters to give us information, and
so I think that our role is -- is critical. We do subdivision
rules and regulations and we set lot sizes. Headwaters has no
ability to set a lot size. They do pumping limits and they do
spacing. So, they're totally different creatures, though they
are related, and sometimes we have to sit down and discuss how
they work, because you can have different -- you can -- I
mean, unfortunately, lot sizes are almost never uniform
shapes, such as round or square or something like that.
They're usually long, skinny, odd shapes. And if you start
putting -- you can get yourself in a situation that we're
approving lot sizes, and if they're not consistent with the
25 ~ spacing requirements that Headwaters puts in there, basically
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we're creating lots that you can't drill wells on. So, I
think we have to work together.
But, you know, I guess that's, in a nutshell, what
the role is. And I think the -- you know, the
Commissioners -- reason we're here is we're anxious to look at
the model, see what Feather Wilson is doing. But we're
probably -- what I've heard is that we need -- the model has
to be further along before we can start doing any kind of
decisions based on the model, because it's at the preliminary
stages right now. And I think that's what I'm hearing,
anyway.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Headwaters went through a many-month
process last year of revising its rules, and I want to thank
the Commissioners for all their input into that, because we
had long workshops on how we were going to reconcile lot'size
with spacing limits. And, you know, we -- people have
different opinions about how it should be, so we just discuss
and discuss. "What interpolation methods are being used for
your well data?"
MR. WILSON: Well --
MS. SUMMERLIN: Don't get too complicated.
MR. WILSON: Interpolations are part of the program
itself that I'm running, but I don't rely on just the program.
I don't think the computer can think like a human. Doesn't
have the experience that a human has, especially an
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experienced geologist. So, everything I do to interpolate, I
do by hand first. I actually use the well data, but I
Now, the
MS. SUMMERLIN: "How can policy make -- policy
makers effectively make decisions when the model is halfway
concluded? Shouldn't we wait until we get the science
completed?" I welcome that question, because I'd like for you
to consider the pumping limits that Headwaters has been
enforcing for the last 10 years that were strictly political
numbers. And I've heard this story from a variety of sources.
When those numbers were picked back in the early 90's, it was
strictly based on what the leaders at that time thought the
citizens would accept. Those numbers -- we've never had
enough science to base our regulations on. We -- I suppose
there's a -- there will be some people who will never have
enough science to make a decision they can feel completely
happy with. For myself, as a policy maker, my -- my standard
is common sense. I think of myself as representing all of
you. I'd like to think that if you studied all the stuff the
way I do and listened to as many people as I do, you'd come to
pretty much the same conclusion I come to. But, of course,
that's what we have elections for. You watch the way I vote,
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and if it doesn't match up with the way that you think and
evaluate the data, then you need to get somebody else.
MR. FIESELER: Mary?
MS. SUMMERLIN: Yeah?
MR. FIESELER: I'd like to also add, it's important
to realize that groundwater management, groundwater
planning -- for that matter, surface water, all water
management planning is a dynamic process. It's ongoing. In
the regional water planning groups, they're on a five-year
cycle. We have groundwater management areas that they're also
on a planning cycle. Groundwater districts are continually
getting new data, improving data, filling in gaps and holes,
and that will affect how things are managed and policies that
are dealt with in the future. So, if something's this way
today, it may change next year. And --
MS. SUMMERLIN: Absolutely.
MR. FIESELER: -- it's a dynamic process. That's
all we can do with the data that we've got now.
MS. SUMMERLIN: And that's why the rules say pumping
limits are set every January, because things are going to
change if we're doing our job, if we're gathering more data
and constantly improving our understanding and our scientific
basis.
"Kerr County, with the hill country, has a climbing
floodplain. Since we have so many dry creek valleys, can we
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create detention/retention ponds to work with the..." Anyway,
the idea is, retention ponds in some of these dry creek
valleys to hold the water and let more of it sink into the
ground. And this is -- this is an idea you hear a lot.
Feather, do you want to talk to it?
They are
doing that and planning on it with the Edwards Aquifer
Authority down in the San Antonio BFZ zone. We have it -- we
actually -- I don't know; did we plan on that in Region J? I
can't remember.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The first plan.
ponds -- or not ponds, but actually -- actually recharge dams
for the Edwards, particularly.
MS. SUMMERLIN: And, of course, another one is -- is
brush management, is cedar removal. We think that would slow
down -- that would let more water that falls from the sky
percolate into at least the Edwards aquifer. "Does or will
this model account or consider man-made surface water inputs
to the aquifer, such as aquifer storage and recovery
projects?" Everybody know what ASR wells are? The city has a
permit to take more water out of the river than it really uses
in the winter, so it goes ahead and takes it all out, treats
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it, and stores it in wells, actually injects it in wells. So
that then in the summertime, when the demand is higher, they
can use, you know, their total permitted amount every year.
My assumption is that the water they put in is the water they
take out, and it doesn't affect the aquifer much. But this is
not absolutely cut-and-dried. Feather?
MR. WILSON: Well, I think that I've often said that
I think it would take a subordinate or much closer spaced
model within the city area to actually model the ASR
situation. And we're also talking about the City is drilling
another ASR well soon, so we'll have three wells. I'm very
much in favor of that. And when I first started this project,
I realized that that would have to be a subordinate model.
And there is a model being worked on now by a consulting firm
out of Austin for the city, which I've been editing and
helping with, and especially with data. And that model is --
is reaching fruition right now. In fact, I think the modeler
is here? No? Is the modeler here today? Yes. Yes. Do you
want to make a comment on that?
AUDIENCE: Sure. Yeah. It's -- the model that we
created does have -- doesn't cover nearly the same amount of
area, but it's a more refined grid, smaller grid spacing, so
you can get a little more detail, see what happens on the
seasonal operation of ASR. But it's a much smaller scale
model, much simpler model right now.
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MR. WILSON: It is -- what I'm seeing, it's showing
pretty much the same thing I have on my maps, too. And
they're modeling the Hosston only, as I understand it; is that
correct?
AUDIENCE: Yes.
MR. DONNELLY: Are you incorporating any at all --
not necessarily modeling, but is the pumpage stress where
you're injecting rather than withdrawing being incorporated
into modeling at all?
MR. WILSON: Yes, it is, especially the stress.
MS. SUMMERLIN: "You indicated that there is perhaps
300 feet of draw down in the brown areas on your GAM map over
there on the wall. Who is responsible for the water
production in these areas? What steps can be made to limit
production in these areas?" We can limit production by
pumping limits and spacing rules. There are many wells.
We're not satisfied completely in our own minds whether it's
the concentration of domestic exempt wells that seems to be
putting too much pressure on the area, or whether it's a few
very big wells that pump all the time that are putting the
pressure on. We need more information about what's caused
those brown areas. But what they mean is that you -- you
expect the water underground to flow naturally toward the Gulf
of Mexico, just like the water on the surface does, and what
we're seeing is some places where it drops off way too
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Something abnormal is going on.
The reason we drilled our newest model where we did
the layer -- the stratigraphy there is very tight. Water
doesn't flow through it as easily as in some other parts, and
maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe it's not all to do
with not enough water, but just how slowly the water moves
through those geologic units. Feather, do you want to add to
MR. WILSON: That's absolutely correct. We are
permitted. And nonpermitted wells is something we're working
on right now. Surprisingly, there's quite a few wells that we
-- we didn't know about that are big wells that should be
permitted. That, combined with the geology or the hydraulic
conductivity or the lack of it in those areas, is creating
probably a bigger zone of capture than would normally be seen.
And then -- then the red flag -- the two red flag wells that
were drilled by Aqua Texas showing we have 200 feet of sand
and gravel, and hardly any production, is definitely a red
flag problem that we just discovered last year.
MS. SUMMERLIN: "How much generally does it cost to
drill in northwest Kerr County a well to the base of the Lower
25 ~ Trinity?" Who could estimate that?
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MR. WILSON: Well, that depends on whether or not
you want to complete it as a permitted well, a public water
well, or just an ordinary well in the northwest side of the
county. If you want to -- if you want to complete it with PVC
casing, which you can do in that part of the county, probably
about $20,000, $25,000.
MS. SUMMERLIN: "How much does it cost to
lithographically log the well and evaluate it?"
MR. WILSON: Nothing. We'll do it -- we'll do it
for nothing. We'll actually do it ourselves and furnish you
logs. If you want to drill a well in the northwest side of
the county, you want to drill it deep, all the way to the
Palaeozoic surface, we'll log it for you.
MS. SUMMERLIN: I'd just like to say, I think that's
a real good use of your tax money, because it's finding
information for you without your having to bear the $25,000
cost of drilling a well.
MR. WILSON: You still got to drill a well.
MS. SUMMERLIN: I mean as taxpayers. The individual
is drilling the well, and we're doing the lithologic log. So,
we're getting a lithologic log without having to drill at
taxpayer expense.
MR. WILSON: And if you want to, we'll also do a
pump test on the well with our equipment, so that's -- that
saves you about another $10,000.
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MS. SOMMERLIN: Right. You got your two pockets,
you know, your own pocket and then your taxpayer pocket. "How
do you regulate the abuse of water resources?" We have pretty
strict rules about what you -- you know, how you have to cut
back in times of a drought. If you're a regulated, permitted
i
well, we have -- there is a state -- in the state law, there's
a definition of waste. Nobody's allowed to waste water, as --
as an individual. Let me say that I think there are loopholes
that need to be tightened up on the state level. I think
Headwaters is -- is being about as conscientious as it can be
with its powers. One problem is enforcement. We have a staff
of four people. We have a guy that is out on the road a lot
', measuring the monitoring wells and so on, but we don't have
near the manpower to even know if abuses are happening, and
then follow up on them, and that -- that could be a problem.
What I would like to dream is that we, as a community, become
educated enough to realize that it's in all of our best
interests for all of us to conserve water as much as we can,
and not rely on the stick, but the carrot of having lots of
water for lots of people.
"Is water to go the way of oil? Become a commodity
owned by a fortunate few, as with oil?" Well, that's pretty
much what Texas law is if you don't have a groundwater
conservation district, so that wouldn't be any change.
"How do we regulate people, counties, and/or large
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cities upstream or downstream that affect our aquifer system?"
That's another problem. And the Legislature, realizing that
the aquifers don't know where the geopolitical boundaries are,
has in the last session required -- required us -- not just
encouraged us as before, but required us to coordinate with
neighboring groundwater conservation districts and come up
with this desired future condition that we want to see our
aquifers in in the future, and then make sure all of our rules
and regulations are consistent with getting to that desired
future condition.
MR. FIESELER: Let me say one thing.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Sure.
MR. FIESELER: I always like to point out to people
that groundwater conservation districts are sometimes thought
of as -- as people who are out there telling you, "You can't
drill a well, you can't do this, you can't do that," it's
taking away your private property rights, when, in effect,
just the opposite is true. The groundwater conservation
districts are your only mechanism of insuring that your
ability to produce water from beneath your own ground is there
for your use. So, groundwater districts help protect private
property rights.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Thanks. Are there any other
questions we missed? Oh, sure. Dr. Quintanilla?
DR. QUINTANILLA: Thank you. We've been talking at
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considerable length about use. Before we are obligated to go
to San Antonio to take a shower, can we talk about water
harvesting? You know, this is a very simple --
MS. SUMMERLIN: We love --
DR. QUINTANILLA: -- system.
MS. SUMMERLIN: -- water harvesting, naturally. The
collection of rainwater has a million good reasons to do it.
A million good reasons to do it. It can be expensive to
retrofit, but it can also be quite affordable. At this
moment, you can't make the economic case that it'll pay for
itself in any foreseeable future. The time when it's
economically feasible is when you're starting from a plain lot
and you're comparing the cost of a rainwater system to the
cost of a well. Then it could be economically feasible. We
have toyed around, as recently as our January meeting on the
board of Headwaters, with the idea of a tax break for people
who do rainwater harvesting. Our tax rate and our tax
collection from even the most extensive properties in Kerr
County is so small that we're afraid people would laugh if we
gave them a tax break, but we might just do it as a -- you
know, as an example. As a way to call attention to the
benefits of the --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mary Ellen, we already have
that in Kerr County. We adopted that as a policy about four
years ago. If you prove out your rainwater collection
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system, --
MS. SUMMERLIN: Absolutely. And they charge enough
money, your discount would matter.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- you get a rebate on your
I taxes.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Nothing else? Sandy?
MS. PENA: The last time I checked -- and I'm glad
Bill mentioned that, 'cause I was about to get up and do so.
That tax incentive program was being administered by
groundwater -- by G.C. -- it used to be -- I'm sorry, by
Headwaters. It used to be U.G.R.A. But the -- and I wanted
to know if Gene had gotten anybody calling in to say, you
know, "IS this still a viable program? Are we eligible for a
tax incentive?" Bill, do you --
MS. SUMMERLIN: I must confess, then, I am ignorant
about that process. Bill, do you know?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, do you have a
~ question?
MS. SUMMERLIN: Sandy said you used to get your -- I
guess your certification or something from U.G.R.A.?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. All we require on the
county level for a tax adjustment on the ensuing year is
proving out your investment. The tax credit can go up to
$1,000 based on your investment. So, if you're going to
install a rainwater collection system, prove it out to us, and
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the credit will go against your ensuing year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think it's -- do you know
who they work with? They don't work with us directly. I
think -- does Headwaters or U.G.R.A.?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, we -- yes, we
stated they could prove it out to U.G.R.A., and they, in turn,
would tell us.
MS. SUMMERLIN: And, Ray, are you still -- and so,
Gene, have we had anybody else ask? Well, we may need to do a
little press release on that and let people know where they're
supposed to bring their receipts. That would be the deal,
right? You bring your receipts in?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think either water agency
could accept the data, prove it out, and be -- and be
satisfied that it's accurate and it reflects the investment,
which would make them eligible, and we would accept that.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Cool. We'll get to work on it.
I Jim?
MR. HAVES: Mary Ellen, it would be very helpful, I
think, if someone would explain -- and Ron may be the one --
desired future conditions and what -- what are required by the
State and when.
MS. SUMMERLIN: Do you want to do it?
MR. FIESELER: Sure, I'll give it a shot.
AUDIENCE: What's the question?
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MR. FIESELER: Okay. In the last legislative
MS. SUMMERLIN: Maybe I should repeat the question.
State's requiring us to identify?
MR. FIESELER: In the last legislative session, they
passed a bill that required groundwater districts to work
cooperatively in 16 different groundwater management areas.
This county and several around it happen to be in what's known
as Groundwater Management Area Number 9. Oh, there we go,
good.
MS. SOMMERLIN: Oh, look, see what it is.
MR. FIESELER: That consists of eight groundwater
conservation districts, and we've been meeting on a regular
basis for the last year and a half or so, trying to get
started on this. What we're tasked to do by the Legislature
is to work cooperatively and come up with the desired future
conditions of the aquifers within our groundwater management
area. Now, these can be divided stratigraphically or
geographically, any way that we see fit that we can -- can
make a rational argument for as to setting the desired future
conditions. Now, once this is accomplished, they'll have to
be approved by the Groundwater Management Group and then the
individual board of directors of the groundwater conservation
25 ~ districts. Then this desired future condition document will
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go to the Texas Water Development Board. They will review it,
and they will use the desired future conditions in the models
that they've got available, or any other models that are
available that they're going to use, and they will come up
with what's known as the managed available groundwater. Now,
this number is what's going to be used by the individual
groundwater districts for permitting purposes in the next few
years. And this is, as I mentioned earlier, an ongoing
dynamic process. We'll be reviewing these numbers every five
and so forth. And we've got to -- to come up with this
actually trying to shoot for this year so we get a leg up,
because the regional planning processes are starting their
next five-year cycle. If we can get our manage -- our desired
future conditions set this year, then that can be incorporated
in the regional water planning processes that are getting
started in their five-year process. And it's a very comply
process, and I've just kind of glossed over it here, but I
would encourage you to stay in touch with your groundwater
districts.
MS. SOMMERLIN: It will be somewhere on that
continuum Feather talked about, from no pumping at all on one
end to pumping it dry on the other end, and we'll undoubtedly
come down somewhere in the middle. I don't think, looking --
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from what I know now, I don't see how I can support
documentable recharge as our limit, because it's too low.
But, for example, the groundwater conservation districts that
are ahead of us and have a lot longer history -- for example,
the Ogallala aquifer up in the panhandle -- have long said
that their goal was to have 50 percent of the water in the
aquifer left in five years. They know it's a definable amount
up there and it will get depleted finally, but they want to
pace themselves. So, that's another option. Anything else?
Yes, sir?
AUDIENCE: Are they mining the water supplies in the
~ Ogallala?
MS. SUMMERLIN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And there is
big areas already that you can't pump anything out of any
more, that used to, you could. But, you know, they've done
all that wonderful irrigation of cotton and everything, and so
they want to phase it out. They don't want to just suddenly
change the rules, because there's just too much invested.
So --
MR. WILSON: I guess when they go 50 percent,
everybody's going to leave.
MS. SUMMERLIN: We're going to think of some dry
land -- you know, go back to dry land farming. They have made
wonderful progress under this pressure, and how efficiently
they can irrigate. I mean, there's just no limits to human
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ingenuity, but there are limits to the water.
MR. WILSON: Before you leave, there's some handouts
if you want them. I have a few handouts, not many.
MS. SUMMERLIN: And I'm keeping a list of anybody
who wants the booklet mailed to them. I have two or three
coming in on the little forms. Thank you once again for
coming. Thanks so much. And thanks, Commissioners, for your
hospitality.
(Joint workshop adjourned at 3:49 p.m.)
STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my
capacity as County Clerk of the Commissioners Court
of Kerr County, Texas, at the time and place
heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 29th day of
January, 2007.
JANNETT PIE PER, Kerr County Clerk
BY: ~ ----
Kathy B nik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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