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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Budget Workshop
Thursday, August 21 2008
10:00 a.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A."BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4
3

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2
I N D E X
August 21, 2008
PAGE
Review and discuss FY 2008-09 Budgets and fiscal,
capital expenditure and personnel matters related
thereto for various County Departments 3
--- Adjourned 108
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On Thursday, August 21, 2008, at 10:00 a.m., a budget
workshop of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in
the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse,
Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in
open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's go ahead and call to
order this Commissioners Court workshop posted and scheduled
for this time and date, Thursday August 21, 2008, at 10 a.m.
The agenda item is to review/discuss Fiscal Year 2008-09
budgets, and fiscal capital expenditure and personnel matters
related thereto for various departments -- county
departments. We've got a couple of budgets -- at least one
that I can recall -- that we haven't addressed, that we need
to do so. Extension Service is one that has been rolled
forward in a couple of instances, and let me see where that's
going to be. That's 10-665.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what it is, 10-665?
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, but I don't know what -- I
don't know what page.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It is on my Page 72. May be
75 on yours.
JUDGE TINLEY: Page 72. You're right again.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't get to be right very
often.
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JUDGE TINLEY: The information provided to me
indicated that Mr. Walston was not going to be available
today. I see Ms. Walls from his department here. The -- I
think the primary issue we've got to look at today deals with
the travel issue, weighing travel by mileage accumulation
versus acquisition of a vehicle. Is that pretty much where
I we are?
MS. WALLS: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: The budget as submitted, as
requested by Mr. Walston, reduces travel in, I think, all
three categories.
MS. WALLS: Yes, it does.
JUDGE TINLEY: The Ag Extension Agent, the Family
and Consumer Science Agent travel, as well as the 4-H travel.
But the offset to that -- or more than an offset to that is
the acquisition of a vehicle and what's required for that. I
asked Mr. Walston to get us a number of options. What do you
have for us, Ms. Walls?
MS. WALLS: Well, I guess what me and him talked
about was, he talked about different options, between the --
one option was maybe getting a van. I believe you talked to
him about that.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
MS. WALLS: I want to show you guys something real
quick on that. His concern with a van was that a lot of the
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companies that sell vans, like Chevrolet and all them, they
won't sell youth groups because of -- thank you, ma'am --
because of safety issues and liability issues. There's just
been a lot of accidents with them falling over, and people
are easily hurt -- a lot more easily hurt in a van than they
are in, like, a regular vehicle.
JUDGE TINLEY: What about -- what about the -- I
understand that he and I talked about the 14-, 15-passenger
van, but what -- what he and I talked about looking at the
Buy Board on dealt with the 9- and 10-passenger vans, which
are --
MS. WALLS: Well, his take on that was that the
9-passenger van is about the same as the Suburban that we
were looking at; it also holds nine people, and so he thought
it was kind of about the same, I guess.
JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have anything here on the
9-passenger van?
MS. WALLS: He didn't give me anything on that.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So, bottom line is, he's hung
up on the Suburban.
MS. WALLS: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that solves it for me.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I talked to him yesterday.
He called, and the Suburban will get better mileage, and the
van's a safer vehicle, according to what he's telling me.
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MS. WALLS: He did say that to me.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's some validity. And
they do get better fuel mileage.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the purpose of this
vehicle is?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Out-of-.county travel, taking
kids to various functions and judgings and stock shows.
Mostly for out-of-county is what he told me. There would be
very little in-county, was his exact statement.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- in the budget, there's
stock show travel.
MS. WALLS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's 4-H travel. There's
FCS travel.
MS. WALLS: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Aren't there some -- seems that
there's -- we've had -- there's another travel line item that
comes under with the state?
MS. WALLS: There's a conference travel line item
that is --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, those are the only
four that -- that include travel?
MS. WALLS: Yes. And those are for, like, motels
and meals for us, as agents, when we go to different events.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The line item here on 4-H
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says 4-H Coordinator travel.
MS. WALLS: That's for Laurinda when she travels.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon me?
MS. WALLS: That's for Laurinda when she travels.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that's for her, period?
Not particularly youth?
MS. WALLS: That's for her to pay for hotels and
meals. We reduced it. It used to include gas for taking the
youth and all that stuff. The way we pay for most of our 4-H
youth to stay in hotels is through the Wild Game dinner; we
raise a lot of money that way, and we're able to offset that
cost for the kids.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So, let's take --
let's go from the 4-H Coordinator's travel line item.
MS. WALLS: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which is, by definition,
what you just said, and let's go back to a van for the
purpose of taking youth to various events.
MS. WALLS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Give me the nexus of that,
please.
MS. WALLS: Okay. The van or the -- whatever, the
vehicle would be used for the gas, basically. It would cover
the gas and it would cover -- whenever we go to different
events, we usually take at least five or six kids, and that
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would require us taking two vehicles, whereas if we had a
vehicle, then we could only take one and it would cut down
cost for you guys. And the in-county as well, that 4-H
Coordinator position -- or that spot where it says 2,000 --
yes, 2,000 is just to pay for her hotels and her meals while
she's out with the kids, and with other things, like when we
go to different things for trainings and stuff like that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The line item right above
4-H Coordinator Travel is FCS Travel Reimbursement. And what
is that? That's you?
MS. WALLS: That's for me.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. WALLS: They previously didn't have that in
there. And we kind of looked at what I've done so far since
I've been here, and we took out all the -- like, the new
employee trainings and stuff like that, and that's what we
estimated it to be.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's out-of-county?
MS. WALLS: That's out-of-county only.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How about the Extension
Agent himself?
MS. WALLS: Roy? The majority of the stuff that he
goes to is out-of-county and stock shows. He does go to some
of the 4-H events also and helps out with that stuff, but
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that's why it says stock show travel.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's under stock show
travel?
MS. WALLS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. WALLS: That's going to pay for all of his
stock shows and any other 4-H events he has to go to.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the --
MS. WALLS: For his hotels and meals.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: In the capital outlay, there's
10,000. Is that based on a lease?
MS. WALLS: It's a four-year --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Four-year lease?
MS. WALLS: And then there's -- it's 9,000 for a
vehicle, and then there's 1,000 in there for a computer.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: For?
MS. WALLS: A computer.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the thousand -- so,
basically, you've reduced the budget about, it appears, close
to 8,000, and you're adding in 9,000. So, you've reduced --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Per diem, 2,000 for the -- I
think its 3,800. It's a reduction in travel.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, if you add those three
categories, it's -- the new -- what they're requesting is
eight. The next one over is -- what's that next column?
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(Discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Year-end projected, they're
looking at almost 15.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 37,000 difference between
year-end and -- and administration recommended.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Looks like I'm missing a number
somewhere. If you add 7,645 and 7,322, they're at almost
15,000. And the other three makes 7,000, so it's an $8,000
difference.
MS. WALLS: Well, and the reason that those are so
high is we have to do a lot of van rentals and stuff to get
kids certain places. Then we have to -- a lot of the parents
~' will help travel -- help take kids, but they do it at the
cost of the gas, a tank of gas or whatever.
JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Walls, let me tell you what
I bothers me.
MS. WALLS: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: I had a rather lengthy discussion
with Roy, and I told him -- I'd asked him first if he had
checked for other -- I said, "What's your priority? Is it
persons or is it cargo you're looking at needing to move?"
No, it's persons. Okay. I said, "Have you looked at vans?"
He said, "No, I haven't." I said, "Let me encourage you to
do that." In fact, I asked him to bring me some options for
vans. I specifically told him I did not want him to bring me
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options as to the larger vans because there were safety
problems with those vans.
MS. WALLS: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: But there were other vans, the
smaller vans that carry nine passengers.
MS. WALLS: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay? That even had room for cargo,
and I asked him to get me that information, bring me some
options. What you have brought us today that he gave to you
deals only with the larger vans. And the only other contact
I had with him was that he found some deal on a Suburban that
could somehow handle nine people. Now --
MS. WALLS: I know that he did talk to the
dealership about the smaller vans, and they had a concern
with a nine-passenger -- nine-passengers van with the safety
as well.
JUDGE TINLEY: Bigger ones?
MS. WALLS: No, he said the smaller ones as well.
So, I -- he didn't give me the information from the contact,
but it was the guy from, I believe, the Chevrolet place.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I asked him to provide me with
some options. Go on the Buy Board; there are a lot of those
vans on Buy Board. He hasn't done it.
MS. WALLS: I apologize for that.
JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not willing to file a budget
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that includes a vehicle until I look at options.
MS. WALLS: Okay. I understand that, sir.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you're pretty straight
to the point this morning.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I asked him for it; he didn't
provide it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I guess Mr. Walston has
to -- about one more shot to get this resolved.
JUDGE TINLEY: If at all. And he's going to have
to make a tremendous case, in my mind, because it's pretty
obvious to me that he's got his mind made up; don't confuse
him with the facts. I realize you're the messenger.
MS. WALLS: Okay. That's all I wanted to say. I
was -- like, I didn't really work on it. He did all of it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're not going to shoot
the messenger.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Unless there's nobody else
to shoot. (Laughter.)
!i JUDGE TINLEY: Unless we've just got an excess of
bullets and you're the only one.
MS. WALLS: Well, let's hope not, okay? Okay.
So --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Welcome to the wonderful
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: How many kids usually travel?
MS. WALLS: Usually travel? It depends on the
event. I went to Roundup this year, where we -- they go to
state and they -- it's all the seniors, and they participate
in state competition, and we took probably eight or nine
kids, I think. And they go to a lot of the judging teams and
stuff like that, and that's about five or six. And then --
let me think, what else? Oh, and then they go to, like,
camps and they go to congress and stuff like that. Congress
is usually only a couple of kids, 'cause it's hard to get
into congress. That was that presentation y'all saw.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MS. WALLS: But there's about six of them. So, I
i mean --
JUDGE TINLEY: There was another option that I
mentioned to Mr. Walston. I don't know whether he checked on
that. I doubt that he did. There are a number of -- all the
major makers are making what I'm going to call expanded
minivans; I forget the names of them. Ford Freestar and a
lot of those have third seats in them also. And I -- I
mentioned those to him, that he may want to take a look at
them.
MS. WALLS: He did mention it to me. I don't know.
He didn't -- he mentioned that he talked to you about it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
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MS. WALLS: And I didn't hear anything after that.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The minivans, you know, are a
lot lower to the ground and a lot safer, and they will haul
up and down passengers.
MS. WALLS: And a lot of them have that hidden
cargo area.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. I can understand where, on
some of the larger ones, particularly at this point in the
year, they're pretty reasonable, but we don't want to be
penny-wise and pound-foolish.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, I agree with
the Judge; I think we need to have options.
MS. WALLS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, small vans, minivans,
and Suburbans to take a look at. I think it makes sense to
me to buy a vehicle, for a number of reasons. Insurance,
liability, county vehicle as opposed to a bunch of different
personal vehicles. So, I think it makes sense to go this
direction, but I think we need to have --
MS. WALLS: More options.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- a lot more information,
probably pretty quick.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. I think we -- we need to try
and acquire a vehicle, because part of what she mentioned and
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what Roy mentioned to me was part of the transporting is done
by -- by parents, and they're doing it for our benefit, and
in some cases, particularly since fuel cost has gone up,
they're being reimbursed or partially reimbursed for their
fuel cost. So -- where's the County Attorney?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Back there.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It creates some awkward
situations.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, it does.
MS. WALLS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Leave it at that.
JUDGE TINLEY: I'll not say further. Okay.
Anything else you want to talk about in your budget,
Ms. Walls?
MS. WALLS: He wanted me to mention the computer
thing for capital outlay. There's $1,000 in there for a
computer. He said you told him to talk to Mr. Trolinger.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yep.
MS. WALLS: The computer is going to be used for me
for when I travel, with -- a laptop computer is what we're
looking for.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. It's not a desktop?
MS. WALLS: No. And it's also going to be used for
presentations and stuff within the community whenever I have
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to go out.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. For Power Points?
MS. WALLS: Uh-huh, exactly.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. WALLS: He talked to Mr. Trolinger; he said
they didn't have one, so I don't know how that affects what
you guys talked about, but he wanted me to mention it.
JUDGE TINLEY: My question to Mr. Trolinger and/or
Ms. Hargis would be, in the I.T. portion of this major
'~,, capital infusion of funds that we got, is there room to
~I acquire another laptop?
MR. TROLINGER: The purchasing is complete and
there is not any money remaining, and there is not a laptop
prepurchased, so it does need to remain in the budget.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So, those funds have been
I exhausted?
MR. TROLINGER: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HARGIS: We might have some in software, but --
JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon?
MS. HARGIS: We might have some in software.
JUDGE TINLEY: In which line?
MS. HARGIS: Software. There was an I.T. part --
I.T. has software, so there could be some in there, but I
don't know that for a little bit, 'cause we haven't finished
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all of our --
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. All those numbers aren't in
yeti
MS. HARGIS: No.
MR. TROLINGER: By my spreadsheet, we're finished
with the -- the hardware portion, but, of course, it could be
moved from somewhere else, but the hardware portion we're
finished with.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Are there -- there's some
other categories in the I.T. that may be available to -- what
are we looking at, cost-wise? $1,000? $1,500 here?
MS. WALLS: We put in for 1,000, but --
JUDGE TINLEY: Huh?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 1,000.
JUDGE TINLEY: Can she get it done for -- can we
get it done for 1,000?
MR. TROLINGER: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is there any money remaining
in this year's budget that might be transferred and expended
for that purpose before the end of the year?
MS. WALLS: From our budget?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm.
MS. WALLS: I believe that there might be some
extra money in our budget. I can't say exactly where, but --
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms. Hargis could tell you.
MS. HARGIS: It's pretty tight. I have to look.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But if there's $1,000
available, we maybe could get it out of this year's budget
instead of having to put it on next year's budget.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Probably.
JUDGE TINLEY: Telephone looks like it's running a
little bit under. They're budgeted 6,000, and they're only
at 35 through -- I'm not sure when that's --
MR. TROLINGER: That might have been the cell phone
plan savings. That's -- I'm thinking about the savings we
had on cell phones.
JUDGE TINLEY: Uh-huh. I don't think we got as
much savings out of their department at we did on some
others, but --
MR. TROLINGER: I see.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- we got some. But it appears
that --
MS. WALLS: We talk a lot.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- there may be some there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, the thing about that,
if you can find it out of this year's budget, good idea;
probably go ahead and get your computer now.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do a budget amendment and
let's do it.
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MS. WALLS: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else?
MS. WALLS: That's all I got.
JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you.
MS. WALLS: Thank you guys.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: One item that was brought up at our
last meeting was the Historical Commission. They -- they
currently have a budget of $3,500, or have had, and they
brought in the documentation to request 6,500. I wasn't
present for that presentation. I don't know what response
the Court --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The Court didn't have a
response, except that it would be taken up under budget.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's get specific here.
That we would turn it over to the County Judge.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, that's right. He
did --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And he would do his job, and
then we will deal with it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that there were eight
pages of supporting documents for a $6,000 budget.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That was when he was gone for
a while. He was gone.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you telling us that you
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haven't called that man and cut his budget?
JUDGE TINLEY: No, I haven't cut it. I put in what
he had last year.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's probably about where
it is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean --
JUDGE TINLEY: Was the question posed to him to --
on any of their activities dealing with fundraisers or
anything of that nature? Was that issue raised with him?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There were a couple of
questions raised. I don't have a budget with me, but one of
them that came up -- there was two of them I can recall. One
of them had to do with oral histories, where they'd asked for
a sizeable increase in that category of oral history. Wanted
to know how many they had done in the previous year, what the
unit cost was for doing oral histories, and seemed to me like
that was somewhat overkill based on their experience
year-to-date. Secondly, they asked for a significant
increase in -- under the category Financial. Wanted to know
what that was. They don't manage their finances; the County
Auditor does, essentially. And it turned out that the
explanation was it had to do with grant writing, and so to
me, there's a question mark there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the other part of it was on
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-- he made the statement that, I guess, the Board of
money is going to that from their outside areas. I asked him
about why can't they raise some money, and that's -- he said,
well, it's going to that right now. And I guess I look at it
as, I appreciate the direction Mr. Luther's taking with the
historical foundation; I think he's doing some things that
have been neglected in the past. I think he's concentrating
on some areas like Camp Verde that -- I think I agree with
him; I think that's very important. I think there's a lot to
do there. I don't mind giving him a slight increase. I
don't think it needs to be near -- I think what -- you know,
3,500 last year; I wouldn't mind going up to 4,000, because
he is doing more than they have done -- I've seen them do in
the past, and I appreciate that, and he's doing a lot of
work, and in reality, spending a fair amount of his own money
on some of this stuff. But I think that the -- I think that
the whole association needs to get more involved, and if they
agree, and I presume they agree with going the direction
Mr. Luther wants to take them, they need to find some of this
funding out of their other revenue sources, and not put 100
percent of it, necessarily, maybe into the fence, the fence
project at the Union Church. They need to put funds in some
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think the
Commission itself doesn't have the authority to raise funds.
That's what I've always been given to understand. But that's
why they've set up the --
JUDGE TINLEY: Friends.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- subordinate Friends
group, for the purpose of fundraising.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the Friends group could
then give the Historical Commission some funds. I would
expect -- I wouldn't know why they couldn't do it with the
county funds for this purpose. And I think that -- you know,
we've talked about membership and things of that nature, and
they've never -- don't really have that. I think they need
to explore other ways of generating some revenue. But I
think I do want to support the direction they seem to be
going. It's a little bit more active in doing things than
I -- that's kind of where I am on it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's in the current
budget, Judge?
JUDGE TINLEY: 3,500, which is what they -- what
they were -- their budget for last year, and that's what I
plugged in for this year. But I -- you know, essentially,
the Court has some different figures, so we need to kind of
think about what that is now.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- I pretty much agree
with what's been said at this table. They're going in a
wonderful direction. My whole thing is, though, I think the
steps are a little bit big. If we just -- if we take a
little more baby steps toward these things, I think we
accomplish more, in my opinion.
JUDGE TINLEY: What's your thought about increasing
it by 500? 1,000?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 1,000 is what I had on my
mind. But -- how much is it this year?
JUDGE TINLEY: 35.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They asked for 6,250.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I wouldn't object to taking
it to five. I wouldn't go beyond that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Five's fine. That's great.
JUDGE TINLEY: I thought 6,500 was what they asked
for.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought it was 6,250.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 6,250 is what you -- I've got
their budget pulled up.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've gone from 500 to 1,000;
all of a sudden, we're at 1,500.
JUDGE TINLEY: 5,000, yeah.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: How about 4,500?
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that would be 1,000.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How about 4,250?
(Laughter.) How about leaving it alone?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: I'm okay with that. Incremental
increase by 1,000 acceptable, gentlemen?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's fine.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Fine.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's the little ones that
are tough.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not the big ones.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true.
JUDGE TINLEY: What loose ends do we have,
gentlemen?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I have -- I had --
', actually had a couple of thoughts.
JUDGE TINLEY: Wonderful.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know. I had three
i
yesterday. (Laughter.) And had one this morning, and it's
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kind of becoming a habit for me. I don't -- can't quite
understand all that, but I get pretty excited, though.
JUDGE TINLEY: You need to watch your stress level.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's true. That is
true. I'm -- medication is keeping it down, though. I want
to talk about our salary increase. I see the -- I see that
the --
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- 10 percent is built in
this propaganda sheet here. I simply want to take the
10 percent out of the elected officials' and the department
heads' salary, give it to the worker bees. And the
department heads and the elected officials get a COLA,
whatever the -- it's probably 12, 15 percent by now -- not
really. But it's something. And --
JUDGE TINLEY: Fast approaching that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. That's what I want.
That's what I want done. I'm just saying that to get it out
on the table and let's talk about it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, the -- what you've been
given is a -- I asked the Auditor to prepare a --
MS. HYDE: Pass those around.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: More propaganda?
MS. HYDE: Yes, it is.
JUDGE TINLEY: Roll-up for everything as to the
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10 percent, and then a 7 and a half. These are based upon
the -- the position schedule, and that's why we call them
"adjusted." And then 5 percent, and then we've got
increments of 1 percent and a half percent. Some of you may
recall, I think it was day before yesterday, the -- there was
a release to the national news media, what -- what the
inflation rate was for July, and that -- that news was that
it was the highest it had been in 30 years. And, secondly,
the -- the price indexes were up more than -- more than
double than what they expected. I have been watching these
index numbers that we've been following on -- on Consumer
Price Index, wholesale price indexes, and, of course,
consumer prices are going to follow that. And in the last
few months, they seem to be in a power curve, going up.
They've been kind of steadily going up, but they seem to be
in a power curve now. The latest information that we got for
July, I think, is included in what -- what Ms. Hyde has just
given you, and then on the back side, she has extrapolated
that trend.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Out to where?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: End of the year.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it should just be through --
through September.
I~! COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
I
~, JUDGE TINLEY: But if -- if you take it through
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September -- that's just through September on the
calculations that you've got, isn't it, for this fiscal year?
MS. HYDE: I took it through end of year. I went
ahead and did a full 12 months.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HYDE: We've got seven down, and that left
five.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's a 12-month period, not -- not
a 15-month period?
MS. HYDE: I used the same thing that the I.R.S.
uses. This is the same thing coming directly off of B.L.S.
This is how the I.R.S. is figuring it. We'll use it for
Social Security this year.
JUDGE TINLEY: So, your statement that it may be
12 percent is --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well --
JUDGE TINLEY: -- is not too far off the mark.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's gotten up a little
quicker than I thought it was.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 9.81?
JUDGE TINLEY: That's that power curve.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. That -- on an
annualized basis. Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the number is what the
number is.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know? I mean, you can't
lose sight of what we're talking about, and that -- that
point of vision out there is everybody in this room has to go
to H.E.B., just like the Shah of Iran does.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And you got to buy milk and
you got to buy bread and you've got to buy gasoline, et
cetera, and so forth and so on, just like everybody else
does. So, it is what it is.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There was a story in the
Express News this morning talking about food prices alone --
set aside fuel and other things that affect the domestic
product, but food prices alone are 6 percent up.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's driven by fuel,
though, isn't it?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, a lot of it, yes, and
the cost of -- of grains and everything else. But what
you're paying for the supermarket today is 6 percent more
than you paid for a year ago, on balance.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we have somewhere on the
computer that I can readily access where we are with our
budget? Where we are right now? I mean, I want to -- I'd
like to see -- I agree with Buster from the standpoint on the
10 percent part. I think that the last year, we went through
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elected officials/department heads and did a salary
adjustment, kind of called it a merit increase, plus a COLA,
so I -- I really think the 10 percent, as we talked about
earlier, to me, is for the employees, not the elected
officials and department heads. I think everybody should get
a COLA, but we're getting to the point that I think that, you
know, I need to look at some bottom line numbers.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think she can give you a rough
idea at this point.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. It may not be exact,
but close enough that we can start making some decisions.
MS. HARGIS: Okay. I would just add, the
department heads did not get -- it was only the elected
officials that got the extra money. The department heads
only got the COLA last year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Well, then, I think
that -- I don't have a problem; I think elected officials can
come out.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We need one more copy here.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you talk -- I mean, I'll
be the bad guy here for a minute. But if you talk about
department heads, we have some department heads that are --
when you talk about a percentage, any percentage, you're
talking about some major money. They have a high salary, and
when you start tacking on that 10 percent, it goes way up
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there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know. So, I don't know
if you -- and that -- that's kind of the reason I jumped on
the department heads too, because you're talking about some
major money in places, you know? Just like -- well --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That -- but also, I think also
we've done a much better job keeping department heads in
line.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true. I think we've
done -- I think we've done an excellent job in the last four
or five years of trying to manage this thing and get
everybody what they need to -- to live. I don't want to go
crazy.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, Commissioner, I think there's
not going to be a great deal of difference when it all shakes
out at the bottom of the funnel.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably not.
JUDGE TINLEY: Because of these inflationary
pressures, and -- and indexes rising the way they are, for
purposes of budgetary planning and where we are, we can
probably start out as if everybody got the same 10 percent
and work from there. And it's going to be, under your
proposal, probably only slightly less for the elected
officials and department heads, so it's probably not going to
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be a major difference. But there is a -- we had a data sheet
dealing with elected officials only. Of course, we're
required by law to file if there's going to be any increases
on elected officials, and we've got one here that shows -- it
was an older sheet, where it figured only at 10 percent and 5
percent, and then it can be extrapolated in between there.
MR. RUARK: We've got another one.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we have -- I should probably
look at one of these. The next one that I'm going to want,
do we have a fund balance sheet?
MS. HARGIS: I gave you that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got it right here. You
gave it to us.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which one? This one?
MS. HARGIS: This one. It's a summary.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a summary, but is it --
MS. HARGIS: If you take the summary for the
general fund, last column, recommended budget, that's what
you want to look at. The other -- the other fund that would
have salaries in it is this Fund 15.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, but -- okay. But go to
the Fund 10.
MS. HARGIS: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It shows 821,000.
MS. HARGIS: In the hole.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: But what's the balance in that
account, so to speak, right now? I mean, we're not -- we got
to have -- we generally --
MS. HARGIS: The balance in the current one would
be the current -- under the current budget, which is Fund 10,
if you go to the fourth column, --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But, I mean --
MS. HARGIS: -- that's actual figures right there.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, you're projecting
Fund 10 to be $100,000 over -- or on the plus side, correct?
MS. HARGIS: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Projected year-end.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we're adding money to
reserves this year?
MS. HARGIS: A little bit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A little bit into reserves, and
we projected going into the budget of having a $530,000
deficit?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we end up with 100,000, so
I we've --
MS. HARGIS: I think we've actually projected --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: $630,000 swing from last
year's budget.
MS. HARGIS: If you looked at the summary sheet
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that we included, we were going to use about -- about three,
350 -- I think 350 of the fund balance last year. And one of
the things that helped us last year was taking all the
capital out --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MS. HARGIS: -- and using the loan, so that -- that
really released a lot of money there. I have also one more
sheet. This is the one that --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: This number just includes the
10 percent for everybody?
MS. HARGIS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Good question, Jon.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What, on Fund 10?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
MS. HARGIS: Yeah. So, it does -- so you can see
that we had -- we cut the budget enough that -- that not all
of the salaries are -- and part of that, actually, the --
there's another sheet -- that's the one you got. You're
familiar with it.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MS. HARGIS: Part of the 800, the salaries actually
came at 711. 711,000. After your last budget hearing, you
may recall you added some positions, and you also added some
money for a capital item, and those -- those got you up to
the 821. So, the 711 -- and you can see that from the salary
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sheet, the 711 is way under what the actual cost of this --
of the salary increases are.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which sheet are you talking
to?
MS. HARGIS: Okay. If you look at the summary
sheet which reflects on Fund 10, $821,000 shortfall.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got you.
MS. HARGIS: And then you look at the sheet that
you got for all the salaries, and the total cost of that --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
MS. HARGIS: -- is actually 1,048,681. But, in
fact, in the budget we're only 711, so you can see we have
cut the budget sufficient -- more than sufficient to take on
the 10 percent. So, when you're looking at the deficit, it's
still below what the actual cost of -- of the 10 percent is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. And on this sheet --
MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the -- so -- and this is all
assuming no tax increase?
MS. HARGIS: That's no tax increase.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which sheet are you looking
at?
JUDGE TINLEY: Summary.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The summary sheet.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we're -- our, I guess,
rule-of-thumb goal has been to keep it at 25 percent reserve,
and 20 percent -- we had 25 as, I guess, the adopted goal,
but I don't think we've been there the last four or five
years. We've been around 18 to 20.
MS. HARGIS: You were at 17 when we went in, and I
checked it. Actually, this one, we ended up being at about
18 and 20. At the bottom --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we're running -- recent
years, anyway -- about 17; just under 20 percent.
MS. HARGIS: Yeah. You have not been at the 25,
from any of the sheets that I can see.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: From your standpoint of being
our auditor, are we safe?
MS. HARGIS: 25 percent is a very heavy number.
I -- you know, I'm usually -- you know, 15 to 25 percent is
healthy. No less than 15, but all the way up to 25 percent
is a pretty healthy number. The only reason that I think
that counties need to be a little bit more cautious is -- is
if we have a big trial, and that's one of the things we
wouldn't want to have in reserve for something like that.
But bond market wise, you're healthy. I mean, they look at
10 percent as being healthy. As an auditor, you know, 15.
I'd love 25, but that's a hard number to fit in today's
economy and keeping the tax rate down. Also, when we have --
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as I've looked back in time, when you had the Juvenile
Detention Center, and you -- that's actually where the fund
balance got hit, and you haven't actually had the opportunity
to -- to build that back up.
JUDGE TINLEY: We've built it back up --
MS. HARGIS: Some.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- some.
MS. HARGIS: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: And it's continuing to do better
than budgeted.
MS. HARGIS: It is continuing. I mean, if you
look, it was a million, then it went down to, like -- I think
I, it was 500, actual numbers. Then it went to three, and then
this year, I believe we're going to come in positive. So --
you know, so I think we're doing a lot better. It's just
kind of taken an upward curve, because you're being very
careful with maintaining the budget within -- the main thing
is you've maintained the budget itself, and you'll be fine,
because then you won't erode your fund balance.
JUDGE TINLEY: Now, the -- the reserve balance, the
percentage, heretofore, that reserve has been kicking
somewhere around 20 percent, year before last and further
back, has it not?
MS.	HARGIS:	It	was	around -	- I think as	far as
21 percent is	as high	as	I got	when --	when I went	back on
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the data that I currently have.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Wasn't it about 19.6 for the
year -- one of those years also?
MS. HARGIS: May have been the year before I got
here was at 19.6. Last year I looked back, and when we did
the budget, and if you take the budget work, we're at
18 percent, and then we actually -- when we got through with
it, we lowered the expenses, because we took out the capital,
so we got up to 19.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we've been going into
most of the recent years' budgets probably somewhere 17 to
19; we're coming out 19 to 20, 21. I think it's kind of --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's kind of my
recollection.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, anyway, we're around 20.
JUDGE TINLEY: My concern is, Mr. Henderson, our
financial adviser at RBC Capital, of course -- did everybody
get --
MS. HARGIS: No.
JUDGE TINLEY: I just got this.
MS. HARGIS: He just got that.
JUDGE TINLEY: And I've had some communications
with him, and, of course, he talks about a -- a number of
things, and he refers to his recommendation to us last year.
His focus last year seemed to be on the cumulative impact
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that the over-65 tax freeze was having on us. And if you'll
recall, last year he -- he said you'll be able to handle it
standpoint and -- and business judgment standpoint, he
recommended that in order to position ourselves with not only
the current impact, but the future impact, he recommended
that we increase the tax rate last year to put ourselves in
that position. That, of course, would -- would have -- had
that occurred, that portion of the -- of the over-65 tax
freeze would have rolled in at the higher tax rate. His --
to -- to take into account that over-65 tax freeze, you're
losing more tax base every single time you do that. And he
said if you've cut costs as far as you can go, you have only
two ways to go. One is to utilize reserves, and the other is
to increase the tax rate.
His communication to me this year has been fairly
strongly emphasizing being very cautious about utilizing
reserves because of the scrutiny of the credit markets and
what our reserve rates were at the time we -- we borrowed
some of these funds, and what our reserve rates then and our
bond covenants are, and our debt obligations are, covenants
we made. So, he strongly recommended against utilizing
reserves.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we're ahead of him
on that. I think that would be way down the list of -- but
my question would be, you know, if you consider -- if you
consider a tax increase to stay up with the freeze, do we
know what those firm numbers are of how -- the amount that
the tax freeze, over-65, how -- what number -- how does it
I
affect us?
MS. HARGIS: Yes. Yes, we do. Yeah, I've got it
in there, and currently, if you use the tax rate that you
have today and the value that those properties received, that
we have lost $770,000.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you could stand there
and tell us today, if we were going to balance that out with
the tax increase, you could tell us what that increase would
be?
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
MS. HARGIS: Yes.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: About three cents.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just under three cents.
Between -- well, three cents.
MS. HARGIS: Now --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're going to have to erase
that word "about" at some point. What is it going to be?
MS. HARGIS: Three cents.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
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MS. HARGIS: Now -- now, you will level out with
the tax freeze. Because what you've done -- if you had taken
those little baby steps the first year, you would be there
today and it would level. At some point it will level, but
right now it's not because of some of the larger valuations
and some of the newer property coming on it. And, actually,
if you look at the tax revenue we got from the over-65 three
years ago as to today, their tax dollars are more and their
values are here, but they're way down here. And they
actually show -- the Appraisal district actually keeps up
with that, and they actually showed us on there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's pretty cool. So, are
we in our third year?
MS. HARGIS: You're actually in your -- I believe
coming into your fourth year.
JUDGE TINLEY: Going into the fourth.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Really? My gosh.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Probably about six years,
seven years before it levels.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
MS. HARGIS: It will begin to level. And I think,
again, because it was something new to not just you, but the
entire state of Texas, that I don't think they realized, you
know, even the school districts, that what happened in the
school districts that I've been told by some of the older
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administrators	is that	it took huge	tax	increases	to get it
back, and that'	s one of	the reasons	why	our tax -	- school
taxes are so high.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. That's what I'm
afraid of, is that if we -- if we wait and don't pay
attention to Mr. Henderson, at some point down the road,
we're talking about a huge tax increase.
MS. HARGIS: Well, and there is something else.
', COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me say one other thing.
MS. HARGIS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Time is fun when you're
having flies.
MS. HARGIS: Sure. The other down side to the
economy and to a lot of things that have happened in the
marketplace with the Fannie Mae's and the Freddie Mac's is
that all of the rating agencies have now downgraded everyone.
We haven't received anything yet, but -- I'm sure Bob
Henderson had. But I got a call from the City, and they have
been downgraded, so that means that pretty much everybody is
downgraded, and that is a very hard hurdle to get over. And
also, the insurance companies that have been out there to
give the -- you buy the insurance to guarantee a positive
rate, are not willing -- there's not as many agencies out
there even willing to sell you the insurance to give you an A
rating. The City has gone down one whole rating, and it took
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them a long time to get to that, and now they've been knocked
down, not by anything they did on their own, but -- but
because of that. Now, Bob Henderson hasn't told me ours has
gone down, but I have a feeling it has.
JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, I think if he'd been made aware
that it had been, I think he would have let us know.
MS. HARGIS: But it is something --
JUDGE TINLEY: One of the points in his letter was
that they are watching that very, very closely, and that we
have covenants in our debt instruments that we warrant that
we will maintain sufficient reserves. And, of course, the
reserves that they were looking at were around the 20 percent
level, and that's what they're looking for, and they --
MS. HARGIS: Well, the financial advisers all like
25 percent, and everybody kind of chokes because there's a
happy medium between 15 and 25, and I think the happy medium
for us would be around between 19 and 20 percent. And -- and
that gives us a good position in the marketplace, as well as
it gives us a good position if we have a problem. And this
is -- you know, we all have Listserv's; I'm sure you're
~, familiar with those. And one of the things that I've seen
recently on mine with a lot of the auditors is where they've
had a large murder case or something come along and they
didn't set aside a healthy reserve, they've got a problem.
So, you know, I think it's a twofold reserve, but it's a
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healthy reserve. It's not -- your friends down the street
only keep 5 percent, and that really worried me.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That way, or that way?
MS. HARGIS: That way.
JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the policy that this court
has established is 25 percent, as recommended by the
Comptroller of Public Accounts.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's correct.
JUDGE TINLEY: And I think the -- the credit
agencies, the bond rating agencies, S & P's, so forth, would
be certainly more pleased in looking at what they're going to
do with our rating if it's something in excess of 20 percent,
especially if we happen to have what our policy calls for,
which is 25. Don't you think?
MS. HARGIS: They do look at that. Okay, that's
one of the elements. It's not all the elements, but it is
one of the stronger elements. A good fund balance shows that
you're several things to them; that you're a good manager of
your funds, that there are funds available for disasters and
things of this nature. So, there's several elements that go
into why that fund balance needs to be there. But --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I hear you saying, though,
that 25 percent is a difficult number to reach.
JUDGE TINLEY: This year.
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MS. HARGIS: This year.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Basically, any time.
into being, everyone needed to realize that they were
actually taking a tax reduction in the overall base, and
that's where we needed to begin to build the base. Because
once it levels, then you're -- because at that point, you --
by not increasing your tax rate, at that point you were
really -- it's kind of like eroding those funds, because you
weren't replacing -- you weren't keeping it at the same
level. Remember, the effective rate is the same amount of
dollars as you had last year. Well, because of the freeze,
your effective rate is actually changed, because of the way
it's calculated, and Diane can speak to that a little bit
more. You have to deduct that property, so it's -- it's
making the effective rate a little bit different than it
would have been in the past.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you know, there's
folks out there in the community that would -- I don't know
what the -- what the point is, but it's some -- probably
somewhere around the 25 percent that they would say, "You
guys are just letting way too much money just sit around."
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It's just sitting there, and not using it properly. But I'm
not real concerned about that, but I am real concerned about
going outside this building and running into my constituents
out there, where I gave myself a 10 percent raise this year
and a 3 percent last year, and now I'm going to raise their
taxes three cents. Huh-uh. Ain't going to happen out of
this chair; I can tell you that. That's hard to chew. I can
see the 25 percent being -- "Well, you guys are letting the
money sit around up there a little bit too much." I can -- I
can discuss that with them. But giving myself a salary
increase like this, I can't.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I don't think there's any way
we can get to the 25 percent, or even --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- remotely close to that. But the
discussions I've had with -- with folks in the community, and
particularly those that have businesses to run, that have
employees and manage employees, the ones I've talked to fully
understand the need to bring our people up. They
understand --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- they are lagging behind and they
need to be brought up, and they fully understand that. They
know what it costs when you lose an employee that has been
with you, that knows your business, that is experienced and
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has the skills necessary to do what it takes to operate their
business. I've been told that right off the bat, there is a
studies show that it may cost you up to three times what you
were paying that old employee to get the new one up to the
skill level of the one you lost. So, they understand the
need to bring our people up to a competitive level, or at
least the bottom of parity, which is -- which this 10 percent
approaches. I'm not sure it gets it there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I agree.
JUDGE TINLEY: But it approaches it and gets very
close, if it doesn't get to the bottom of that parity level.
I think the Sheriff has had one patrol position that's been
open for almost a year now.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Has been for a full year.
JUDGE TINLEY: But, you know, that's unheard of.
The -- the exit interviews, as we've heard from Ms. Hyde,
that have been conducted of employees that have voluntarily
left employment did so because of compensation. They can go
somewhere else and get substantially the same benefits, but
more money. They got to think about their families. I
appreciate	their loyalty to this	point, and -	- but	we've got
to do what	it takes to retain our	employees.	You	know, if --
if they turn you and I out, the loss is not nearly as great
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than if we lose the core of what keeps this machine running,
and that's the employees.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, let's not get carried
away there. But -- (Laughter.)
JUDGE TINLEY: I'm speaking for myself. I'll speak
for myself. If they turn me out --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, you're right. I think
we should do everything we can --
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- to do exactly what you're
saying. I'm there.
JUDGE TINLEY: But, by the same token -- but, by
the same token, the public doesn't expect us to not be able
to take care of the same necessities for our families as
these employees do. So, I have absolutely no shame in being
compensated and increased to a level that takes that into
account. I don't -- I don't have a problem facing the public
at all on that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with you, Judge,
and I don't either. The people I've talked to essentially
understand that the needs of our -- of our employee family
are just as critical as their own needs are. There's no
disparity at all. There's no difference in anybody going to
the grocery store and buying their groceries or fueling up
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their truck at the fuel station, whatever. But -- and I
agree with your comments on everybody else as well.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: At what point are we going
to --
JUDGE TINLEY: Let the cat out of the bag?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- settle on a COLA? We have
some numbers here, and it seems -- seems to me -- I mean, you
know, once I figure out a COLA, then -- I mean, on the
employee side, I'm in favor of a 10 percent, and I'm in favor
of the elected officials and department heads getting a COLA
only. I'd like to see that number. We can run it with
everyone getting a 10 percent, but -- look at it, but the
COLA is the critical number as to what that number's going to
be. Because if it's over 10 percent, I think you have to go
back to the -- back and look at the 10 percent increase,
'cause you're not doing any good.
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I think you -- I mean,
we've got to figure out what the COLA's going to be, what
we're going to settle on, and then look at the rest of it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, these two sheets that
Ms. Hyde gave us, one indicates a maximum available C.P.I. on
Page 1 of 6.19, but if you extrapolate that out to the end of
the year, you're talking about 9.81.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct.
MS. HYDE: And I was very conservative.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 9.81 is only 19 basis
points under 10.
MS. HYDE: Right. Right. And I was very
conservative, because, Mr. Letz, you do financials, and the
Judge does financials, so I know that if I was making smoke,
y'all would call me on it. So that -- that's why it's
extrapolated out 7 -- 7 points. And I used all urban wage --
all urban wage and clerical work versus government, because
government is always looked at --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: South and southwest?
MS. HYDE: South and southwest. And I think that's
very conservative. I think that's very conservative numbers
based on everything that we've seen. And if you go to the
B.L.S. site, federal government site, the federal government
wouldn't lie to us. (Laughter.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Now, Buster may have a comment about
that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. It's our money. So,
!, I'm with Letz. Now we just need to land on a number and rock
and roll, get on down the road here.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Can I make a comment about the
trials that the Auditor mentioned, or one trial?
JUDGE TINLEY: I thought we were going to escape
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this. Didn't you, Buster?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I did.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The Auditor mentioned it. As
far as reserves, I think y'all know, because it's occurring
as we speak upstairs, the main trial that we would have had
in this county this year that would cost us megabucks has
been found incompetent again; will be shipped back again.
That's the trial --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Found what?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Incompetent. So, that trial
will probably not take place. We have a couple of other
outstanding arrest warrants for major cases. I expect both
those are in Mexico, and those trials will not ever take
place. So, unless -- and I pray that there isn't, but unless
something new major happens. And even if it did, I wouldn't
say it would get to trial within the next budget year. So --
MS. HENDERSON: I don't think one will go.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't think we're going to
see one in this county within the next budget year.
JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Sheriff.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Want to talk about a couple
of specific items? Let's talk about visiting judges. Let's
talk about -- we have talked many times about building a new
jail -- adding on the old jail, building a new one. Or is
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there options out there of trying to empty out the one we
have now? So that --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Can I speak to it?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not until we get through.
We'll give you an opportunity, but you're -- the time is not
now.
JUDGE TINLEY: You can sit outside and we'll call
you. (Laughter.)
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That won't happen.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And one of the those things
that we had talked about was the possibility of having --
bringing in visiting judges to hear some of those cases,
those -- Rusty says that there's guys that's been sitting
there for over a year, year and a half, two years, that kind
of thing, that need to appear before a judge and -- and do
something with them. I don't understand how all that works,
but bottom -- basically, bottom line, that's what we're
talking about. I've been in communication -- well, we all
had a visit with the District Judges and the D.A.'s, and
seems like everybody's willing to sit down and talk about
this issue, how to do this thing. And I think everybody's
willing to work together and get it done. Judge Prohl and
Ms. Henderson came down with some thoughts a couple weeks
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ago, and -- and I sent y'all a memo on it, and -- of the
possibility of us putting some money in our budget for
visiting judges. I'm just going to make one more point,
Ms. Henderson; then I'm going to ask you to talk about it for
a minute. And they get -- the district level up here get "X"
amount of dollars from the State to do this kind of thing.
And what they're willing to do is take their state money,
just like they always do, take their state money and spend it
on this issue, and when they run out, then they would tap
into the county money. Do you want to go now?
MS. HENDERSON: Well, you've pretty well --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it was close, wasn't
it?
MS. HENDERSON: Yeah, you did real well. I -- the
state funds that we get have been -- have been cut for the
whole state of Texas. And last year they were cut -- this is
the second year they were cut. Last year they were cut, and
we were lucky that we had enough funds that we didn't run out
this year -- we ran out the end of May, so we have not been
able to use visiting judges at all, except for Judge
Sherrill, who has agreed to work for free. He has done quite
a bit for us free. This time he got ill, and has not worked
the past month, month and a half. The only reason -- what we
would like -- what we can do is, there's three reasons to use
a visiting judge. One, we could have a probation MTR day; we
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could have an extra one once a week, twice a week, whatever
we have the funds for. We could have a plea day. That would
help take care of getting people out of the jail. And then
we could have an extra jury trial a month using a visiting
judge. Our judges travel --
JUDGE TINLEY: How much money did the State give
you for visiting judges this past year?
MS. HENDERSON: The State gives the region -- well,
each region has so much money. Our region is the Sixth
Region, and there's 26 counties in the region, and that has
to be split.
JUDGE TINLEY: How is it allocated? How much was
local allocation to Kerr --
MS. HENDERSON: It's not allocated on a per-county
I basis.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. It's allocated to the region,
and when it's spent, it's gone. How much did we spend?
MS. HENDERSON: In Kerr County? Kerr County?
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MS. HENDERSON: I'd have to go back and check that.
I don't have that.
JUDGE TINLEY: Don't even have a ballpark?
MS. HENDERSON: Don't have a ballpark on it.
JUDGE TINLEY: I'm looking at -- I recall a
discussion last year about this time, about the fact that the
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State had cut these funds, and y'all needed something to
shore up in case we need those, and to help move some of
these crowded dockets and unload the jail and so forth.
MS. HENDERSON: Mm-hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: And last year we put $2,500 in the
budget for Special District Judges in the 216th, and --
MS. HENDERSON: 198th.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- 198th, we put the same amount in.
And the figures I'm looking at show that none of that was
expended in either case.
MS. HENDERSON: And let me explain what that's for.
That was not to pay their salaries. We've always -- if
you'll go back, we've always had that in there.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
MS. HENDERSON: That's if we have to -- and I try
not to use that, and let me tell you what it's for. If we
have to have -- to bring a judge in that doesn't live in the
district, we have to pay travel, meals, and hotels, and so
whenever I book a visiting judge, I try to use Judge
Sherrill, because he lives in Kerr County; we don't have to
pay him anything. Or I get Judge Jordan, who lives in Brady.
He's agreed to come to Kerr County and not charge us
anything, so I've been able to do that.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HENDERSON: But that money is there just in
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case we were not able to get them and we had to bring a judge
in.
JUDGE TINLEY: So --
MS. HENDERSON: And they had to use hotels.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So, we've been able to get
free visiting judges to this point.
MS. HENDERSON: For Kerr County, per se, yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MS. HENDERSON: Now, County Court at Law is not
covered. The State will not pay for visiting judges in
County Court at Law, so I do not know.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think we've got some allocated.
MS. HENDERSON: I think they may have some. But if
~ we had to bring a judge in --
JUDGE TINLEY: Now, if -- if we continue to give
you this money, or make it available to you, and it's for
their mileage, whatever, that would help you, would it not,
and give you some encouragement to bring in visiting judges
after you run out of whatever state funds are available?
MS. HENDERSON: Well, after we run out of state
funds, then we'll have to start paying their daily salary,
which is $534 a day. That's what this would -- that's what
the extra money would do. If we were --
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HENDERSON: If we were using -- you know,
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having a plea day, or bringing in a judge to do a jury
trial, --
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HENDERSON: -- that's what that would be.
JUDGE TINLEY: Over 500 bucks a day.
MS. HENDERSON: Right. That -- right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Is that in full-day increments or
half-day increments?
MS. HENDERSON: We can do half days. They can
either get paid by full day or half day. If they come in for
a half day, they get half that. That's the salary that they
get from the State as a retired visiting judge.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You said that the amount's
going to be cut by the State this year. Do you --
MS. HENDERSON: No, it won't be cut. I think it's
going to be the same as it was last year. I don't think
they're going to add anything.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What is the total amount
available for --
MS. HENDERSON: I knew you were going to ask that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- for the district?
MS. HENDERSON: I'll have to get those for you. I
mean, our region, the Sixth Region, I'll have to get that for
you. I think it was -- I want to say 200-some thousand.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a big number?
MS. HENDERSON: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MS. HENDERSON: And to make all this work, to do
the extra day for the MTR days to get people out of jail, to
do an extra plea day, to do an extra week of jury, we're
going to have to have the D.A.'s with us to make it work. I
can schedule it and I can get a visiting judge, but if I
don't have a D.A., then nothing happens, so that's something
we're going to have to work with too.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would like to really have --
you know, it's not just me, but we can put the funds in the
budget and you can aggressively tackle this, because this is
a -- seems to me that this is the cheapest way for the
taxpayers to keep from building a jail, or doing anything
with that jail. If we can add -- put 50,000 in here, boy,
that's money well spent if it does some good. I'd really
like to see us try that. And then if we can turn our
attention to the D.A.'s --
MS. HENDERSON: And I'll tell you, that's not going
to be -- I mean, it may come up next near that you put 50,000
in there and there's $50,000 left there, and it will be
because we still had the funds in the Sixth Region. We will
deplete those and use them until we don't have any funds
left.
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JUDGE TINLEY: If you'd make the effort to utilize
these visiting judges early in the year, it seems like you've
got a better shot of getting it funded out of funds allocated
to the region. Doesn't that make sense?
!i MS. HENDERSON: Yes, sir, and we will --
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HENDERSON: -- do that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean --
JUDGE TINLEY: Is the number that you think is the
right number a total of 50,000? Or is it something less than
that?
MS. HENDERSON: Well, 30 days is about $18,000. To
use a full -- a visiting judge 30 full days is about $18,000.
Now, say we have a criminal jury trial; they average two to
three days.
JUDGE TINLEY: We don't want to use them for that.
We want to use them for mass disposal of cases.
MS. HENDERSON: Well, adding -- we have a lot of
backup on our jury dockets of people that have been in
jail -- Rusty? I mean, you've got people that have been in
jail a long time that need to go to trial, and it's because
they can't get a trial, right?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
MS. HENDERSON: So, if we were able to do an extra
jury trial a month, that would at least get somebody that's
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: It seems to me that -- and I
MS. HENDERSON: What?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it seems to me --
JUDGE TINLEY: He didn't get that from me, Becky.
having to rely on Judge Jordan and Judge Sherrill, pay the
guy -- pay a judge money, get a schedule where he's going to
be here for this year, these dates, and guarantee that he's
getting that visiting money. I would think that would be
pretty attractive to a retired judge that wants that money.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think -- and that's what
I would really like to see, is to get a real schedule, one
judge coming in -- and Judge Sherrill's great. I think his
health's a problem right now. And Judge Jordan, that's fine,
and I appreciate all they've done for the community. But I
think we need to go to the next step and start paying --
going beyond those two, and start paying for some judges to
be here so we can see if this approach works. If it does
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work, we can pursue it even more. If it doesn't work, we go
back to the drawing board.
MS. HENDERSON: Well, we are going to have Judge
Ables available now, once he retires. We can -- but he said
that he will -- he'll come in and do it. We've got Judge
Sherrill, Judge Jordan, Judge Simmons from Del Rio, so we
have a variety of judges. And if, you know, we can use --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Free's great, but if we have to
pay, we got to pay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Because of this issue.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I mean, I don't -- I
want them cleaned out, and now.
JUDGE TINLEY: Why don't we -- let's use the free
ones on some of these criminal jury trials, and pay the guy
to go out and clean up out at the jail.
MS. HENDERSON: Yeah. But, I mean, we won't pay --
we won't -- we will not pay them from this budget until we
run out of the state funds.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand.
MS. HENDERSON: So --
JUDGE TINLEY: Why don't we start with a total of
25, 12,5 in each one, and see how that works this year?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good start.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good start.
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JUDGE TINLEY: And we'll see where that carries us.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good start.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- and I -- I agree 100
percent, and I -- the next step is having this meeting with
the D.A.'s and what District Judges we can get there to try
to get everybody on the same horse, to accomplish the goal
that we're looking at.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did we not approve an
additional D.A. for 216th?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, we have not yet.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's in there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have not voted to do
that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I realize that, but it's in
I here .
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. And that'll be a
part of the conversation, believe me.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It should be.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In order to reach our goals.
And, you know, you're right on. You're right on the -- right
on the mark there. So, I'm not sure how to do this meeting
thing, unless we do it in a workshop session with us kind of
thing, to do it that way. So, I -- did anybody hear -- did
y'all hear anything?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That means your time is up.
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COMMISSIONER	BALDWIN:	Okay,	thanks.
JUDGE TINLEY:	Ken, I'	ve got	12,5 in both 198th and
i 216th.
MR. RUARK: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: I plugged it in.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, can you tell us why
this won't work?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. I'd like to tell you and
I will tell you that I think it definitely will work. If you
want my opinion right now on whether or not we should build a
jail, I'd tell you no way, period, okay?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're trying. We're trying
not to.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Looking at it and that, and,
you know, true, we have some problems. Judge Prohl did
fabulous two weeks ago, okay? He kind of put the stick down,
and in one day they pled 20-some-odd inmates. One day, okay?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That proves it can be done.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Exactly what it does. But, of
course, 216th Judicial District Court, Monday, indicted 41
new ones, okay? So pleading 20 and indicting 41 changes
things real quick.
JUDGE TINLEY: It's not Becky's fault.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jody?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right this moment, as of
as of yesterday, out of a hundred and -- we went back up,
going back up. It's 158 inmates, but 105 of them have been
in jail over 100 days; anywhere from 100 days to, believe it
or not, because of -- of our one major case, 2,000 days,
okay? I've got several over 400 days that have not gone to
trial. That kind of stuff has to end. That's where we have
judge problem, okay, of available judges. It's a D.A.
problem. It's a D.A. problem when you have a trial coming
up -- and we only get six jury trials a year, okay? That
they call in the jury panel, they do voir dire, and then at
the end, they offer a plea bargain and plead them out, and
that whole jury trial-and that jury is gone, and we've lost
one of our six for the year, okay? Why wasn't the plea
bargain offered sooner? We don't have .that, all right? Or
you have a jury trial set in the other court where discovery
was forgot to be given. Jury trial's gone. We've lost that
for the year; we don't have that.
I have asked this morning, along with Buster -- and
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I've asked now for a meeting with the judges and the incoming
judge and with the D.A.'s, 'cause they're a very big part of
won't go to the jail and see inmates, and won't -- you know,
they're getting so many pretrials 'cause they have too many
inmates. A lot of that can be worked out during the month in
a regular visitation booth with the inmate. We've opened
that up 24 hours a day; they can come see them, but they
won't. So, a lot of it's defense attorneys. A lot of it is
state jail cases that the most you're going to get is, you
know, two years anyhow. Why are you keeping them in jail
over 100 days before you offer an offer for -- for 15 months
or 18 months, and then end up pleading them at the end. I
had a guy in jail for 200 and -- almost 300 days, and at the
end, we took him to Fredericksburg, finally, over there for a
suppression hearing before they go to trial, and they offered
him five years. He's already served it. He's already served
the five years. Or they've been in jail 150 days, and then
they go to court and they give them six months. It's done.
Those kind of things have to stop. That's why Kerr
County has the jail problem we have, and that's the sole
reason we have it. Now, true, there's a lot of cases. It
takes more D.A.'s when you indict 41 in one Grand Jury
setting, okay? You got to have some assistant prosecutors so
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that you can do that, so they need the prosecutors. There's
the capability that Rex's office can handle state jail
felonies if the D.A.'s will let them, and so you need that.
You need the visiting judges. Judge Ables told me this week
have court out there. In fact, it can be worked out and
agenda for next Commissioners Court where y'all had told me
to look at some consulting firms, and I have, and got two
prices from them. And if you've looked at those packets, if
they've come out yet, you're talking about $70,000 to have it
done. But if you read what's in their material, I think
you'll see where a lot of Kerr County's problems are. I got
my eyes opened reading what they had in their material on
what they will look at and adjust and use for doing an
analysis of our criminal justice problem. And I don't
mind -- and I know it may upset some judges, but -- and some
D.A.'s and some attorneys, but right now -- and I've been
doing this 28 years in this county. Right now, the criminal
justice system, as far as being able to flow and be effective
in this county, is gone. It's broke, and it's going to take
every part of it, including myself, to get it back on track.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're doing everything that
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we can here to help you fix that. That's exactly what we're
doing.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I know.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I think all these people
that you're talking about, the D.A.'s and all those folks,
are all reasonable people.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They are.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And once -- once we
point out to them that they don't get any money if they don't
play our game -- no, no, not that.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Unfortunately, what happens
is -- in my opinion, what happens is, a lot of it's out of
sight, out of mind.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty? I think that they --
they understand, or they will understand when we sit down and
have this visit with them, but I think that they're going to
understand and see clearly that the public in this
community -- which is still in charge, believe it or not;
they're still in charge -- that they would rather see us go
our route and empty the jail out than to spend ten more
million dollars building a new jail.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And we're not meaning empty it
out by letting them loose back on the streets. No, crooks
need to be in prison, but let's give them their day in court.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think there's a
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newspaper in here.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But what -- and where it is,
Buster, is it's going to save us money in more than just
building another jail right now. I've had more turnover in
the jail because officers are getting spit on -- I've had
more officers assaulted, spit on or assaulted in the jail
this year than we ever have.
JUDGE TINLEY: Buster, you're the one that gave him
the soapbox. Don't jerk it out from under him.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's angry. Why are you so
~ angry?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, I am.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're not angry at us, are
you?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I'm angry at the system.
And we -- and we've doubled our medical this year. Let's cut
all that stuff.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do the beep thing.
MR. RUARK: I turned beep off.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'll get off my soapbox.
But --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We understand. We understand
the problem.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We are not against you. We
want to help you. We don't want to build a new jail, period.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't either.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Neither do the taxpayers.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. But that's why -- and I
think -- I don't think we have to. And you're looking at the
budget and everything else for employees' salaries. If we
work together, I don't think we have to.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question for you.
I have a question for you. Is there enough -- do you have
enough prisoners that our program would affect to really
affect the number of folks that sleep in that jail?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What kind of number?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think you could -- if you
sped up the system, --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we had three -- three
visiting judges a month.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- I think you could cut my
population, on the average, by at least 50.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Fifty? Five-zero per
I month?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My average daily population, I
think you could cut by 50.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Gosh, that would even reduce
the number of jailers, wouldn't it? (Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That has a real domino
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effect.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm 40 percent over budget in
overtime in the jail right now.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Oh, Rusty, I was just playing
~ with you.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I know.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're not talking about --
or are you talking about cranking in funds for one of those
consulting agencies that you referenced? 'Cause I read the
same material you put out. That's very interesting. Are you
talking about that?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Y'all had asked me -- y'all
had asked me to look. I think 70,000, 75,000 is a lot of
money to do -- you know,---
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- to spend.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But the more I read through
that material, I don't think it's wasted money. I think they
do a fabulous job on analyzing everything and trying to get
everything together. Midland County, with the one consulting
firm, were spending close to a million a year housing inmates
out of county, because they were full. Now, they are still
going with having to build a jail, but after that study and
getting everybody on the same page and working together, they
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quit having to house people out of county at all, so they
saved a million, okay? So, in saving a million a year, they
were spending the 75,000. It's not -- we're at the -- we're
at the peak of that mountain. We're going to start spending
money, a lot of it, somewhere if we don't do something.
I And --
JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, I would agree with you that
the content of that proposal that they made was somewhat
enlightening, based upon the variables that are involved,
some of which we, of course, know about, and some of which we
may not have thought about.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think we know what our problem is.
Now, some finite planning of that solution may be better done
by someone with experience at looking at a number of
different institutions.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, they're --
JUDGE TINLEY: That may benefit us. But we know
what our problem is.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, there was one part in
there -- and I don't mean to say anything to Rex, but Rex and
I -- and I'm one of them that have felt Rex, with the County
Court, has done a fabulous job of getting our misdemeanors
moved out. Every day he's having court, we're moving them,
okay? But when you start looking at one of those proposals,
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which, through the state reporting, what we all report on how
many, you know, A and B pretrial misdemeanors each county
jail in the state has, that that was more per capita and per
inmate population than the state average by Midland's
population and the number of pretrial A and B's they were
housing, which was 28, okay? So, I pulled up our last ones
to see where we are, 'cause Midland County's population is a
whole lot more than Kerr County's population, and Kerr
County's was 23 that we were housing for our population, so
we're way up above.
So, is there a way that we can even possibly move
misdemeanors A and B through quicker? You know, a lot of
that's -- a lot of that is a -- is a pretrial release
program. A lot of it's a -- a bonding program. A lot of it
is a -- or a PR bonding type program. A lot of it is also
a -- oh, you know, a regular public defender's office where
you have defense attorneys. There's -- there's a lot of
different points, and that's where I said that a lot of that
material started to get my attention, okay, on it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Now, it --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You know, where we have -- we
still have misdemeanors that are violation of probations.
Some of them misdemeanors have no bonds, okay? You know,
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Midland County's is -- is an automatic $500 bond, period. I
don't necessarily agree with that, 'cause I think some of the
misdemeanors are just as bad as a lot of your felonies and
need to be in jail, but that's how they changed a lot of
that, because they are misdemeanors.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the bottom line is, we
generally know what our problem is.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: Now, there may be variables and
different methods to fix it, but I think what we're talking
about is working on the solution that Commissioner Baldwin is
talking about. We've got -- we've got to move them out of
the jail, through the court system, and on down the road
somewhere.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What I'm --
JUDGE TINLEY: Either out into the community, to
the penitentiary, to the state jail system, and work release
program, whatever it may be. But we got to move them through
the system, and that's what's causing your problem.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What I'm going to ask y'all to
do, probably at the next Commissioners Court, is appoint a
committee so we can have an official deal, not just let's
call a meeting and see what we can do. Let's do an official
deal with a couple Commissioners, appoint some judges to it,
me, defense attorneys, to where we can actually sit down,
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study it, get all the information out there on the table, and
make some progress, and not just talk about it and have a
meeting and go on back, and six months later we're back where
we were.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that makes good
sense.
JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you.
MS. UECKER: I think the simple answer is, Kerr
County needs to be its own -- have its own judicial district.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Way to go.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is a major --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now you've gone to meddling.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, that's a major part of it.
We have always said that.
MS. UECKER: Yeah, I don't have anything to do with
the district courts. Sorry.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is a major part; we've
said that, and that is a part of this whole solution. But I
think there needs to be an official thing put together, firm,
we're going to do it, we're going to meet. Y'all worked on
airport stuff; you've worked on a lot of other things where
you came together and did it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who does she think she is,
the District Clerk? That's what it sounded like, didn't it?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Single district.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I've got one more
topic, then I'm going to eat. And it's not anywhere near
this kind of thing.
JUDGE TINLEY: I would hope not.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The Turtle Creek Fire
Department has come to me. About one mile out Highway 16
South, about a mile past Riverhill, they -- there's a fellow
out there that's going to donate some land for Turtle Creek
to build a new fire station. They want to build a two-bay
fire station out there. They have two trucks to go in it, et
cetera, et cetera. Now, my very first question to him was,
"How long does it take you to get a fire truck from there to
the elementary school on Ranchero Road?" And he says, "About
four to five minutes," which is basically the same thing as
the City of Kerrville's answer. This excites me, and they
are in that process. They haven't -- haven't gotten the deed
to the property or any of that yet. It's still real early in
it. And once they get the deed and all the things are done,
and -- and Rex is going to feel comfortable with it, then we
want to have a little bit further talk with them, maybe to
the point of asking Leonard at some point, you know, when
they start the bidding, maybe to do a little dirt work or,
you know, something, preparation-type work out there on the
ground, and maybe next year putting some money for concrete
or whatever. I just don't know where we are and where they
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are at this point, but what I see in this thing is a -- to
me, a huge step toward reducing the fire contract with the
City of Kerrville. That's the way I see it. And I think
that -- I think that that is -- that's the route to go.
We're obviously not going to get ESD's county-wide, so to me,
this is the other option. So, I think we're taking giant
steps here, and I wanted to ask you guys, when it comes time
to support this particular type of thinking, that we -- that
we do that as a Commissioners Court. That's all.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would that be a potential
of an ESD for that area?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. But --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Potential.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like the idea.
JUDGE TINLEY: It just gives the Turtle Creek --
that Turtle Creek department the ability to cover a wider
area, including Kerrville South area.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct.
JUDGE TINLEY: Which is the one that we're
concerned about in our dealings with the City.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. Now, one of the
points that they made that I thought was very, very
interesting is, around -- somewhere around 70 percent of
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have a fire or a traffic accident -- by the way, they had two
fires last night and one this morning. When they have a fire
or an accident, they drive all the way out to Upper Turtle
Creek, get in a fire truck, and come back in to fight the
fire or work the accident. Whereas now they can run outside
the city limits, grab the truck -- I mean, they're here
already. See what I'm saying? So, it's just -- to me, it's
just a plus, plus, plus, plus, plus, and I'm liking it a
whole lot, and I hope that we have the wonderful opportunity
to participate.
JUDGE TINLEY: Other than lunch being on your mind,
what else have you got?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That was my three thoughts
for the week, Judge. I'm depleted.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you're -- you're increasing;
you only had one or two last week.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
to grips with the cost-of-living totally; it's hanging out
there -- a lot of people hanging in here waiting on us to
stop hanging out there -- my Justice of the Peace, who is
named Judge Wright, who's talking to some one else right now,
asked me to put before the Court her request for a Garmin GPS
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that she says she borrowed, tried it out, and finds out that
it does, in fact, work on remote county roads, and she'd like
to have that $300 out of the J.P. tech fund for next year's
budget, and I agree with her.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Fine.
JUDGE TINLEY: Tech fund's a dedicated fund.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. She just --
JUDGE TINLEY: Who did she borrow it from?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know. Who did you
borrow it from?
JUDGE WRIGHT: Oh, the Garmin?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, ma'am.
JUDGE WRIGHT: From my ex-husband. Does it matter?
(Laughter.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Judge, let me make a suggestion.
Have you still got it? Do you still have it?
JUDGE WRIGHT: I just borrowed it for one weekend.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Possession is nine-tenths of
I the law.
JUDGE WRIGHT: I used the jail one, and it works
I also.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why didn't you just keep
it? Then we wouldn't have to buy one.
JUDGE WRIGHT: It wasn't part of the settlement.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Statute of limitations ran
out.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Tech fund.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're dismissed.
JUDGE TINLEY: Is that it for you, Commissioner?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, except we got to
come to grips with the big number here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you got anything you want to
offer on that at this point?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The only thing I -- I would
just reiterate what I said earlier. If we take Ms. Hyde's
numbers -- we have to take them seriously, because they are
the numbers that are out there. If you're looking ahead at
the time period that remains in this particular budget year,
going into next budget year, you're looking at a 10 percent
increase COLA. That's it. I don't have any trouble
defending that with anybody at any given time.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Then, again, if it looks
like Obama's going to get the nod, it may go down to
3 percent.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, you'll also get
$1,000 back if you check your tires regularly.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, am I -- I forgot that
part. I forgot that part.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, Commissioner?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: Jon, do you got anything you want to
pitch out on the table?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pretty much, I just -- I think
we need to look at -- I mean, decide what -- if the COLA's
10 percent, it's 10 percent, and we have to pick a number
that matches with our step and grade, or just do an
across-the-board percentage.
MS. HYDE: I would appreciate it if y'all would say
four grades so that it matches all our numbers.
MS. HARGIS: The numbers right now are 10.381.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Two and a half percent
increase.
MS. HYDE: Right, because they're all in two and a
half percent increments, so it ends up being 10.381 total,
because you're --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the one below that?
MS. HYDE: 7.5.
JUDGE TINLEY: But it has --
MS. HARGIS: It'd have to go compound, so I'd have
to figure it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 7.50-something, right?
JUDGE TINLEY: Would elected officials and
department heads -- elected officials, of course, are not
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tied to the step and grades.
MS. HYDE: No, sir, they're not.
JUDGE TINLEY: And I think you have tried to get
~ the department heads plugged into the step and grades,
haven't you?
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir, I have.
JUDGE TINLEY: So, are we talking about only the
elected officials having a separate number, or are we talking
about -- I mean, the numbers are so doggone close, I --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's, I guess, where I am.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have a heartburn
either way.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's -- I was just using
that as a starting point. I just felt funny about separating
the department heads' numbers, but --
JUDGE TINLEY: They had previously been at -- been
at straight numbers, as elected officials, but I think there
has been a -- a strong effort made by Ms. Hyde and the
Auditor to try and get those plugged into the -- to the
!, position step and grade schedule. That's the only reason
I --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What is -- have whoever looks
at all these numbers looked at what the people -- Kendall
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MS. HARGIS: Yes.
MS. HYDE: Yes.
MS. HARGIS: Yes, we have.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What are they doing on COLA's?
MS. HARGIS: I've talked with Gillespie County, and
Gillespie County's is going to be at around 10 percent as
well. What they're doing is a little different than we are.
They're bringing up all their lower people, just like we did,
and then they're giving people amounts to get their salaries
up, because I don't think they have a step and grade, but
basically they told me it would be close to 10 percent. I
haven't talked with Dana that much, but I know they're pretty
close to it as well in Kendall County; they're doing a very
similar thing there where they're giving, like, $1,500 to
$2,000 to get their people up to that grade. They're
actually giving them that cash in addition, and then breaking
them up, and then they're giving, I think, a 5 percent COLA
or higher.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But the problem you have with
that is -- is they're already 10 percent above what Kerr
County is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm saying. We're
not solving our problem if everyone else is giving a 10
percent increase. We're not solving the disparity issue that
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we have in the county.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I'm sure the employees would
not be averse to -- instead of four steps, that it go to six.
have to look at. But, you know, I'd really like to look at,
if the other entities around here that are causing the
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We haven't caught up.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: At least with a COLA, but we're
And when y'all took care of deputies a year ago, got
everybody up, they never were equal, but -- even the jail
staff, but we were -- we got that gap narrowed. Then what
affects that, as long as you stay close, is, one, what kind
of agency you have, what kind of department you have. You
know, Kerrville itself, okay? The benefits of living in
Kerrville. And what's happened now over the years is that
gap has gotten so far, that 8,000-a-year difference, we can't
make that up in the agency, or in -- in living in Kerrville.
So, if you get that gap back down to where you -- kind of
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like you did deputies a year ago, okay, you know, by doing
the 10 percent this year and then just trying and keep
working at it to where we're close, I think your -- your
community and your agency means a lot, whether it's Human
Resources, District Clerk, my office or whatever.
(Commissioner Baldwin left the courtroom.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd like to see a 10.3, the 7,
whatever that -- y'all don't like the 10.381 -- and the
10.381, plus a one-step for employees only.
MS. HARGIS: You already have the 7.5.
I'i MS. HYDE: You've got it already.
JUDGE TINLEY: No, no, no, no. I think what he
said was he'd like to see some numbers with an additional
step.
MS. HARGIS: The additional step does not have the
7.5. Do you have --
', COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm looking at breaking it out
~I
~~ differently. I'm looking at everybody gets 7 -- there's two
different COLA's, and then employees only, no department
heads, no elected officials, can get a one-step additional.
So, this is a third one.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that the --
JUDGE TINLEY: And you're using a COLA of a flat
10 percent?
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ten point -- whatever they
I want .
MS. HYDE: 10.381 is the COLA.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HARGIS: Okay, if we can do that. Okay. So,
then let me get this straight, all right? We use the 10.381
for the COLA, then we take the one-step for employees only.
We already have a list for this, and so it won't take us but
a few minutes to multiply this out.
JUDGE TINLEY: That does or not does include
department heads?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't want department heads.
MS. HYDE: You're talking about hourly employees?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, hourly employees.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Get a one-step increase.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Plus the --
MS. HYDE: Plus the 10.381.
MS. HARGIS: Okay. All right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That makes sense.
MS. HARGIS: So, we need to define department
heads.
MS. HYDE: Department heads are any appointed or
elected officials. Right?
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MS. HARGIS: Okay. That is -- well, we'll have to
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take them out of the --
MS. HYDE: It will be just -- it will just be the
I worker bees.
MR. RUARK: We'll look at what we've got.
MS. HARGIS: We've got --
MS. HYDE: It will be any appointed -- Ken, that's
that list that I gave you. We can put it out real quick.
It's a part of that list that I gave you on that spreadsheet.
MS. HARGIS: We'll have to go through every
department and take out their department head, 'cause the
department -- we do have three schedules, one for elected
officials only, and elected -- and y'all have that, and then
we have one that included everybody, and then we had one that
included department heads, but not elected officials.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
(Commissioner Baldwin returned to the courtroom.)
MS. HARGIS: Okay. Everyone gets a 10.381, and the
hourly employees get an additional step.
JUDGE TINLEY: Bingo.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Was I out of the room too
long?
MS. HYDE: Yes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What happened?
MR. RUARK: I'll turn the bell back on; wait a
I minute.
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86
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everybody gets the 10.381 COLA,
and all hourly employees get an additional one-step increase.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good lord. (Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Look at the numbers.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Look at the number.
MS. HARGIS: We're going to look at the numbers.
We're kind of getting close to having to file the budget,
so -- Judge? Monday? We don't have it on the agenda. Can
we get it on the agenda?
MS. GRINSTEAD: We've already got it.
MS. HARGIS: Can we do another agenda for a budget
workshop after the regular meeting or something?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have some pull. I bet we
can get it on there.
MS. HARGIS: Think so?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's our time table for
publishing and everything we need to do?
MS. HARGIS: Well, we've got -- the 27th is when we
were going to -- we need to give it to the clerk, the budget.
And then we've got to start the tax hearings. We've got to
get those going, because we're going to run out of time.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It will all work out.
(Discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm exiting out of this
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MS. HARGIS: Any other questions?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, ma'am.
MS. HARGIS: The only one we didn't do --
(Multiple low-voice discussions off the record.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are we -- are we through?
Judge, we got a court reporter over here.
JUDGE TINLEY: She knows how to keep a record for
me, not for you.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But she's getting this phone
conversation, too.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Where are we on -- where are
we on our general --
MS. HARGIS: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- discussions relative to COLA
and -- the Auditor's got her instructions to crunch the
numbers, right? Is that where we're going?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'd like to -- you know, I --
from my part of it, I think that what Jonathan came up with
was a really good idea for the -- especially for the
employees. The elected officials got three and a half and
three and a half last year, so I'm not sure that we ought to
get 10 this year. I'm thinking more like three and a half
for elected -- for at least Commissioners Court, three and a
half, 4 percent for Commissioners Court only. And the other
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elected officials, you know, you can include them in the
10 percent if you want to; that's fine. Just for my part of
it, I just don't -- you know, I feel like we got more than
they did last year, so we need to make a little adjustment to
what we get as a COLA. I do believe we should have some
COLA, but being as we got more last year and the others
didn't get it, I feel better about adjusting ours somewhat.
JUDGE TINLEY: My recollection of part of the
got included on my budget. Why it got there, I don't know,
'cause we never have -- never did finalize that one. But
some of the discussion, as I recall, last year centered on
the longevity that -- based upon the policy we put in place
for the employees, longevity and educational. And they --
the fact that they receive that as a matter of automatic
policy is when that occurred. And my -- the sense I got of
it at that time was, in large measure, if not all of it, just
was that that three and a half was meant to offset that, that
we lagged behind. And others may have a different
recollection; I don't know.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But our salaries are pretty
much a -- they're not -- they're not high and they're not
low, but they're somewhere in the middle from the other
counties that we use for comparisons, and that's kind of
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89
where I base my comments.
JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we get a 10 -- if we all
get 10 percent as well, it will put us way up, somewhat at
the top end -- top end of what other counties our size are
getting.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: She's shaking her head. But,
anyway, I tend to agree with you, pretty close.
JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hyde, what -- have you reviewed
the numbers?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's not a huge number.
MS. HYDE: If you look -- you're absolutely right,
Commissioner, if they don't give themselves a COLA.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
MS. HYDE: But the consensus that we are hearing is
that they are giving themselves COLA's, which will put you
guys at the small end of the stick. And I don't mean just
you guys; I'm talking about all of them again. Here we go
back again, because now you've lost 10 percent again, or
I more.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I -- it's just a --
it's just a principle thing with me, more so than anything
else. You know, if I -- whenever I'm doing business with
somebody, I can raise the price to whatever I want it, but
when you're spending the public's money, it's just hard for
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90
me to -- to give in to do a very large raise at any one time.
.That's just the way I feel about it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We could put us -- the
Commissioners only one step less.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go to six and a half or
whatever it is.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I would think about it,
but, I mean, that's just my two cents worth right now.
JUDGE TINLEY: Have you negotiated a discount at
the local grocery store --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I have not.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- for elected officials?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I figured that there will be
more venison in the future. (Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If there's a special award
that we can get that does that, I think we ought to consider
that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And I have a new redneck
outdoor barbecue pit to cook it on, so it really doesn't cost
much to cook, doesn't use any electricity.
MS. HARGIS: We do have one other thing, and if I
don't get it done, I'm going to get shot. We need to put an
additional 12,000 --
MS. HYDE: 500.
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MS. HARGIS: -- 500 dollars into the budget for TB
shots.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For what?
MS. HARGIS: TB shots.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: TB.
MS. HYDE: TB.
MS. HARGIS: Tuberculosis.
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Testing?
MS. HYDE: Shots, preventive.
JUDGE TINLEY: Immunizing.
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: For who? Jail?
MS. HYDE: Sheriff's Department and JDC.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Are you talking TB or
hepatitis?
MS. HYDE: TB.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Good, 'cause you can't get
hepatitis done for 12,5, I don't think. Because we -- I
mean, all my employees are TB tested once a year, required.
All the inmates are TB tested after they've been in jail
seven days.
MS. HYDE: The problem is, we don't meet OSHA
requirements, and although, as a government entity, we do
not -- if something happens, we don't even meet the minimum
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standards, so I'm -- I'm trying to keep us up there where we
keep out of trouble.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The one I'm more concerned
about, if she's got it coming -- and Eva and I haven't had a
chance to talk about any of it -- is the hepatitis shot.
That's what -- that's what endangers my employees more than
anything else. Was it Hepatitis A? Or --
MS. HYDE: B.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: B, the main one, and those are
a series of three shots that are very expensive. And that --
that's concerned me more than anything else.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Tell me what we're doling with it
and where we need to put it.
MS. HYDE: I don't know where to put it. I just
know that I need it.
MS. HARGIS: We can put it in Nondepartmental.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Nondepartmental?
MS. HARGIS: There's -- I think the Animal Control,
or the --
MS. HYDE: For TB? No, they don't need TB, but
they need --
MS. ROMAN: Pre-exposure. We normally do the
pre-exposure vaccines, but -- but right now, there's a
shortage and we won't be able to get pre-exposure vaccines.
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MS. HYDE: I think that the four people that work
out at Animal Control can have the shot with the $12,500.
MS. ROMAN: Oh, yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we put that in what,
Contingency?
MS. HARGIS: I'd have to look at Nondepartmental,
Judge. Let's see.
MR. RUARK: Here it is, Jeannie.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I would sure like to see it
in the next meeting. You don't have anything -- it calls for
-- well, you do have Professional Services, if you like.
MS. HARGIS: I'd really like to add a line so we
can keep up with it. Let's just call it --
JUDGE TINLEY: Immunizations.
MS. HARGIS: -- immunizations.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MR. RUARK: She'll have to add that in the general.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. All this paperwork is
real good and it's very accurate, from what I can tell, but
what I'd like to see is the bottom line and the -- what tax
rate would be necessary, an increase to fund at each level
from, like, 7 and a half to 12 percent increase in salaries
and all that. I don't see the projected tax rate increase
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from where we are today, to where we would have to go.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: On this sheet.
MS. HARGIS: This sheet right here will show you
that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I've seen that, but I'm
talking about --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which sheet?
MS. HARGIS: The effective -- if you take the tax
recap that Diane was kind enough to provide for us, that
assumes that we remain at the current tax rate that we-are
today, and it takes you up by increments of 50 cents, a
dollar -- you know, a half a cent, a whole cent, one and a
half. And then --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I see all that, but the --
MS. HARGIS: And then you just compare the bottom
line to what you need.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is the bottom line today 900
and -- 891,000?
MS. HARGIS: No, sir. It -- on the summary sheet
that you've been watching, it's 822. If you will look on the
general ledger sheet that I gave you --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I can see --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You got an extra copy of
that, Ms. Hargis? I don't seem to have one.
JUDGE TINLEY: Want this one?
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No. I'll look over the
MS. HARGIS: Okay. If you look on Page 1,
~ please --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This one right here?
MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir. Page 1, last column.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I see the last column; that's
821,000.
MS. HARGIS: 821,000. That's the general fund.
That's the general fund.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that is --
MS. HYDE: We just added a little bit to it today,
right?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That is the projected --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Deficit.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Deficit.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- deficit.
MS. HARGIS: At the current tax rate.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At the current tax rate,
you're looking at three-plus cents.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: For next year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Get rid of 821.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You do a three-cent --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's 850,000.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that -- but I'd like to
kind of see a --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But we just increased that
some today.
JUDGE TINLEY:	Mm-hmm.	
COMMISSIONER	LETZ: Probably increased it to four.
MS. HARGIS:	847. We took it up to right -	- here
it is. You're still at	the 850.	
COMMISSIONER	LETZ: Well, I mean, but if we	go with
another step increase f	or employees --	
MS. HARGIS:	Okay.	
COMMISSIONER	LETZ: -- that's going to increase
probably another half cent to another cent.	
MS. HARGIS:	Yes. Be nice if it was a half	cent.
(Low-voice di	scussion off the record.)	
COMMISSIONER	LETZ: He didn't give you the	front
page.
MS. HARGIS: Here.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No wonder.
JUDGE TINLEY: No wonder I can't find it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've got it on here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I got short-sheeted up here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're missing an important
page.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: What is -- I don't know; this
is not that critical. We can adjust it. Road and Bridge?
MS. HARGIS: They're fine.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're okay?
MS. HARGIS: They're okay, because they're -- we're
going to take them up a little bit. That will give them
about 25,000, and they have a very, very healthy fund
balance, and we need to bring it down a little bit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
MS. HARGIS: So they're fine. The same with the
Detention Center.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, basically, what it would
be is, this year the total rate is 38.96, right?
MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And, so, using that rate, and
if we went up four cents, the way I read this, it would be
41.12 if we went up four cents.
MS. HARGIS: Four cents.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Based on --
MS. HARGIS: One million, 1,3.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, the effective rate is
37.12. Then you go four cents up from that; be 41, so really
from the rate that we have now, we would only be a little
over two cents from what the rate is today.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Current rate or the
effective rate?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Current rate.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The current rate.
MS. HARGIS: The current rate would be more than
two cents. The current rate would be the four cents, 'cause
she's using the current rate.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm talking about -- you're
talking about the effective rate. I'm talking about last
year's tax rate.
MS. HARGIS: Last year's tax rate, yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Was 38.96.
MS. HARGIS: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's almost -- almost --
MS. HARGIS: That includes Road and Bridge.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- 39 cents.
MS. HARGIS: That includes Road and Bridge.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, I understand.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But her -- she's calculated an
effective rate increase. She's basing it off the effective
rate.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's right. And so -- but
what I'm saying is that, actually, from last year's rate, if
we go up four cents, it's only going to be about a two and a
half cent increase over last year's rate. Forget the
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effective rate. Talking about what the people are going to
see from what they paid last year.
JUDGE TINLEY: If you go four cents, you're going
to be at 42.96.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's not what this says.
This says --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, see here, she's --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This says 41.12.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: She's basing it --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: She's --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: She's basing this off the
effective rate.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The effective rate is 37.12.
MS. BOLIN: Which is what it was last year.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because that's what it took
to raise the same amount of money based on the increased
property value for tax base.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But what I'm getting at, what
the public is going to see is that they paid 38.96 last year.
If we go up four cents over the effective rate, that's only
two or two and a quarter cents higher than the rate that they
paid last year.
MS. HARGIS: No, because in my -- in my -- I think
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we're going to have to change this, because in my calculation
of the revenue that is currently in the budget today, using
the same tax rate as we had last year -- the same tax rate,
not the effective rate, is what I use. So, I -- what we
probably need in this -- and this is probably my fault,
'cause Diane said, "What is your proposed rate?" So, what we
need to do is go in here and -- and change this, because it's
going to be four -- it needs to be an increase over what we
-- what our rate was last year.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I understand that. It's got
to be higher than our rate last year.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, be 42. 3.896 plus 4.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's not what she's saying.
What she has written right here on this page is, she's got
the effective tax rate increase, so she's basing the four
cents off of the 37.12.
MS. HARGIS: Yes. And --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Which would make it 41.12.
Forty-one --
MS. HARGIS: Commissioner Oehler is exactly
correct. However, when we did the budget -- when I used my
revenue numbers in the budget, I used the 35 cents and the 3
cents, so I used the 38.96; I didn't use 37.12. So, I'm --
if I use the 37.12, that's going to put me in the hole more
than I am right now.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. Well, that's why this
is kind of confusing to me.
MS. HARGIS: Well --
JUDGE TINLEY: The tax rate that's going to be on
the statement that's going to the taxpayer is going to be the
42.96.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Because that -- that's the rate
that's imposed and assessed that they'll be paying.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to make sure that we
know what the taxpayers are going to see.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is that not greater than
8 percent?
JUDGE TINLEY: No.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No.
MS. HARGIS: No.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because of the bonded
indebtedness?
JUDGE TINLEY: Rollback rate is stated on what
you're looking at. 42.17.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Rollback rate was something
that's slightly above 8 percent increase.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the rollback rate,
25 ~ Judge?
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: 45.
MS. HARGIS: The rollback rate is 45 cents.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Forty-five cents.
JUDGE TINLEY: We're a long way from that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That doesn't make sense to me.
The law must have changed. Well --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or the way we calculate it.
MS. HARGIS: Well, the way we calculate it is the 8
percent rate on your M & 0, but your debt rate is what your
debt rate is, because we incurred new debt last year. You
add the 8 percent on the maintenance and the debt rate, and
that, in turn, gives you your rollback rate. So, it's kind
of a crazy calculation.
JUDGE TINLEY: You're actually encouraged, the way
we calculate the rollback rate, to incur debt. But what
they're going to see that they pay is 42.96. Four cents.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's just not what it
indicates on that sheet of paper.
JUDGE TINLEY: If you read those advertisements
that come out in the paper, those notices that they're
required to send out, I don't know how anybody understands
them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three and a half would be
certainly nice.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I think if we run the numbers
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on the additional -- the additional step, it's going to take
it to four.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we don't do the additional
step for those lower-paid employees, I think we might be
making a mistake. They're the ones I believe that are
hurting a lot worse than some of the others.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we should do that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I really do want to help, as
much as possible, those on the lower end of the totem pole as
we can.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. That's why I came up
with that. Otherwise, you're just treading water.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, gentlemen.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got one quickie here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, one quickie.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's -- now the County
Attorney's not here. I just had a phone call that tells me
that there is a meeting at City Hall, even as we sit here
today, in which they're talking about the annexation of the
Ag Barn. You may or may not have known that. Just F.Y.I.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That probably came from a -- a
conversation -- Mr. Hofmann said something to me about the --
something about the Ag Barn and city water, city sewer and
all that. I was talking to him about Peter Lewis' thing that
8-21-08 bwk
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he's going through, and he goes, "Where are you going to get
your water?" I said, "Where we're getting it served right
now." He said, "Continue using well water?" I said, "We
have city water; we cut a deal with the City before your
time, but we have city services out there in the county." He
says, "Well, I think we should annex." I said, "Well, that
wasn't part of our deal."
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, there's another
reason, but I don't think he likes to talk about it. They
don't like to see all the tax -- sales tax generated out
there going another way. Just F.Y.I., guys.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't surprise me.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I don't -- I don't know what
the pleasure of the Court is, but if we don't have anything
else right now, I think it might be appropriate, in case we
felt the need to come back later on this afternoon to look at
some numbers, if they're available, at least having that
option available to us, as opposed to having to post another
workshop.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's do it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm cool.
JUDGE TINLEY: Everybody okay with that?
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, provided I don't get a
call from --
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, be running around the country.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three?
MS. HYDE: Three what?
JUDGE TINLEY: At 3 o'clock?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I won't be here that late.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Rex said y'all had juvenile
court in here at 1:30.
JUDGE TINLEY: 1:30, yeah. We can do that
somewhere else. But --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't need to be here.
MS. HARGIS: Well, there will be -- well, we can
get the numbers. We got to work a little bit on the numbers
here, but --
JUDGE TINLEY: You can have those available
by 2:30, three-ish?
MS. HARGIS: But -- well, I think -- well, Eva
needs a couple of numbers so we can see what the compounding
is. We can do the 2.5 easily.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MS. HARGIS: But we don't necessarily know what the
compounding is. So, if you're not worried about that little
tenth of a point, we can go ahead and get it done.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why can't we -- is it going to
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put	us	in a timeline problem if we	do	this --	just wait and
do	it	on Monday, when we have a --	we	can add	a workshop to
our agenda.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Diane?
MS. BOLIN: Well, it will push us more --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can't vote on it today
anyway.
MS. BOLIN: Right. You can't vote on it today, but
I was going to put it on the agenda for us to do a proposed
tax rate so that I can publish so we can get in line and not
be crunched.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we can still do that.
We can probably meet today.
JUDGE TINLEY: We -- we can't -- we can't vote to
give you a proposed tax rate today, even if we wanted to.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm saying.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not posted.
MS. BOLIN: Monday?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Monday's the earliest we can do
anything either way. We can always have a workshop.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. Get the information
to us, though.
MS. HARGIS: We can get your information to you for
sure.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't need to be on the
agenda to -- rather than -- rather than a workshop, we need
to --
JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. lt'll be on
Monday's agenda.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, as an action item. Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we'll get it there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What does this have to do
with Buzzie's? That's what I don't get.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, does this mean that there's
not felt to be a need to come back, then?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's where I'm at. I
mean, y'all -- somebody can walk in and hand me some papers.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd rather have the right
numbers that are exact, rather than having to rush and people
trying to scamper to have something by 3 o'clock.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll do it on Monday anyway.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would like to have them
before we leave here on Friday.
MS. HYDE: Want us to e-mail them to you?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. As soon as you have them
available, you can e-mail them or put them in my box or
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108
something.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Before we leave on Friday.
That's all I'm interested in.
JUDGE TINLEY: So, we'll have no need to reconvene
this afternoon?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not from me.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Doesn't sound like it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We'll be adjourned.
(Budget workshop concluded at 12:19 p.m.)
STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 19th day of September,
I 2008 .
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
Kathy B ik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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