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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Workshop
Monday, December 8, 2008
1:30 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
Kerr County Personnel Policy Handbook Update
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A."BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4
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On Monday, December 8, 2008, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop of
the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville,
Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come to order with a
Commissioners Court workshop scheduled for this date and
time, Monday, December 8th, 2008, at 1:30 p.m. It is that
time now, so let's get started. The purpose of the workshop
is to participate in a workshop to update Kerr County
Personnel Policy Handbook. I think this necessarily involves
Ms. Hyde.
MS. UECKER: She's on her knees.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you praying for rain,
or just praying?
MS. HYDE: Praying.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Praying to get through this
meeting, probably.
MS. HYDE: The one that you have -- the one that
you have now has got all the changes that we made at the last
workshop, and the wording changes that Rex recommended and
the Sheriff recommended, and so there you have it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sheriff recommended what?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: She just said the Sheriff, Rex,
and her are all on the same page today.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Say what? (Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which page is that?
MS. HYDE: Left field.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Left field.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Sharing the same cell.
MS. HYDE: Commissioner Baldwin, what's "Buster's
last can"? That is too cute.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What have you been doing in
my truck?
MS. HYDE: I wasn't in your truck.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's -- did you see
it?
MS. HYDE: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's my washtub.
MS. HYDE: That is cute.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. It's Ernest Tubb on
one side, and on the other side is Buster's Last Can. It's
an old joke. I think it goes back to the Indian war,
actually.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You ought to get Mr. Luther
involved.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I hope that doesn't have a
historic value designation on it somewhere.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Tell us what we did with the
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sick leave.
MS. HYDE: We left it kind of sitting.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What page is sick leave? How
do you want to go through this, Ms. Hyde? Just kind of go
through page by page?
MS. HYDE: I was going to ask y'all. Could we
maybe, like, agree that the first section might be okay? Or,
you know, kind of do it in sections where we could, like, put
some to bed?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This historical, we can do
that, the history lesson.
MS. HYDE: I thought that some folks that are
getting hired aren't from here, so it would be kind of nice
if they knew a little bit about it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree.
MS. HYDE: And that is cited properly off the --
where I got it from.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we talk about Comfort being
the county seat?
MS. HYDE: I'm sorry?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: About Comfort being the
previous county seat of Kerr County.
MS. HYDE: I haven't read this in about a year, so
I have no idea. Does it say that in there?
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: It should.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I hope not.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It should, but probably
doesn't. Probably left it out. Did we talk about Faltin --
MS. HYDE: Do you need to add that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- being partners with Captain
Schreiner?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No.
MS. HYDE: I got Zanzenberg in there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What do you got in Precinct 2
so far? Keep going.
MS. HYDE: I got Camp Verde.
MS. THOMPSON: You have Comfort in there.
MS. HYDE: I have Comfort in there? Thank you.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Cheryl.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you, Cheryl.
MS. HYDE: Yeah, 1880, Charles Armand Schreiner.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MS. PIEPER: I think Page 15 is the first place
that you can't go any further without a couple of items from
the Court.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where do we start? Page
15?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm.
MS. HYDE: 1.15, performance appraisals. Right
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now, the only performance appraisals are going to be on the
five department heads -- appointed department heads. So, do
we want it where we're doing appraisals for employees once a
year?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Won't that be a function of
a department head to do that for his or her employees? Or
elected official?
(Ms. Hyde nodded.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I mean, the
'~ position has always been that elected officials -- that it's
their department to do what they want. And, I mean, I don't
-- I think it's a little overstepping our role if we tell
them that they have to do appraisals. I think they should,
and I think the intent has been to encourage all employees to
have it. But beyond that, I don't want to set up --
(Commissioner Baldwin's computer made a noise.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Technology whiz.
MS. PIEPER: Buster must be searching the web.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we probably should
require that those who work for the Court, for those
department heads to do it.
(Cell phone rang.)
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somebody acknowledge whose
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it is. (Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Almost as bad as Looney
I tunes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the --
MS. HYDE: That's why that last sentence is in
there, because that's not something that we can really say.
It just says that they're strongly encouraged. And like we
said, department heads is not just appointed; we agreed that
department heads is appointed and elected, and they're
strongly encouraged to set them up, yada, yada, yada, and do
them.
MS. UECKER: You might need a separate section to
require department heads, and encourage elected officials. I
do mine, but that doesn't mean everybody does. You do, don't
you? Rusty does.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The arrival of these --
you're talking about copies of appraisal always arriving at
H.R. no later than September 30. That's a little late,
particularly if there's -- if there's some --
MS. HYDE: Budget consideration?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- budget consideration, or
if a department head is thinking about asking for something
at budget time. So, maybe a month earlier?
MS. HYDE: Whenever y'all want them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why can't we require department
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heads to do appraisals?
JUDGE TINLEY: We can, but --
MS. HYDE: Why are you looking at me? Which one
are you talking about? Appointed department heads?
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm, you can.
MS. HYDE: Yeah, you can.
JUDGE TINLEY: You can't elected officials.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to
differentiate in this department heads or --
MS. HYDE: We're just trying not to write
"appointed or elected officials" so many times. That's a
lot. That's a lot.
', MS. UECKER: But there are some things where you're
II going to have to separate department heads from elected
officials.
MS. HYDE: So, what do you guys want to say?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think department heads and
their -- you know, we do appraisals of department heads, and
department heads do appraisals of their staff separate,
period. We encourage elected officials to do appraisals for
their staff.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's pretty simple.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we -- I think, to me,
we can always refer to them as department heads and elected
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officials. But, to me, department heads report to the Court.
Elected officials are everybody else.
MS. HYDE: So, we encourage elected officials, that
last sentence, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, can't you tie it into
that date where you've got having it accomplished by
September 30? Let's move that date forward and use the
language that the Commissioner's suggesting for elected
officials and department heads, and encouraged to do so, and
have the reports in by --
MS. HYDE: When would you want the annual
appraisals to be completed?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would think August 30th
at the latest.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would think -- I think you
need to do that before you get into the budget.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do too.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I'm talking
about.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Budget starts in June. I mean,
by the time we really start doing the work, and we ask, like,
our department heads to --
JUDGE TINLEY: June 30 ought to be good enough.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: June 30th.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: June 30.
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MS. HYDE: So, change it to June 30? Just make it
June 15th, and then be in there by June 30?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- the .previous page, Page
14, 1.14.
MS. HYDE: Hmm?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You changed that. The break of
service is -- you say 90 days.
MS. HYDE: It's -- this is 60.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now it says 60. Is there a
reason? Is there a --
MS. HYDE: 'Cause y'all told me to.
MS. PIEPER: That was discussed last time.
JUDGE TINLEY: That was the consensus we reached
last time. That was one of the few things that we finally
nailed down, wasn't it?
MS. HYDE: Multiple times, in big letters.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't make any difference.
Just seems like -- why do we even discuss it? But, anyway,
okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you going to lead us
through this thing, or are we just going to hop all over the
place?
MS. HYDE: Well, I didn't know if y'all were done.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hell, we just got here.
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What are you talking about, done?
MS. HYDE: So, 1.16 would be the same thing, then.
I mean, we can go ahead and do the job descriptions.
MS. DECKER: Yeah.
MS. HYDE: Okay, so that one's done. And then
classifications, that'll be -- that'll be ungrayed.
MS. DECKER: Un-what?
MS. HYDE: 1.17 -- ungrayed. We're going to talk
about it, 'cause they're kind of contingent upon 1.15.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MS. HYDE: And 1.18, that I think was -- that's a
piggy-back off of what you were trying to discuss this
morning, Commissioner Letz.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure is.
MS. HYDE: And, see, that -- that way, it doesn't
~ -- it doesn't continue.
JUDGE TINLEY: The rewording, I think, is
appropriate that job class -- job duties and responsibilities
not be altered solely for the purpose of justifying salary
Increases.
MS. HYDE: And that's grayed out, as Rex wanted it
reworded.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MS. DECKER: Is the gray part the new wording?
Or --
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MS. HYDE: No, this is to be reworded. Rex wants
that reworded.
MS. DECKER: Well, then Rex should reword it.
MR. EMERSON: My last meeting I went to was a year,
year and a half ago on this thing until you get to, like,
Page 50. So --
JUDGE TINLEY: You can remember when it was you
went to your last meeting?
MR. EMERSON: No. It was a long time ago.
JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay.
MS. DECKER: I was at that one, wasn't I?
MR. EMERSON: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That third paragraph under
1.18, you got a line. Is that supposed to be a line through
part of that sentence? Reclassified, transfer, et cetera, et
cetera, et cetera? Is that a line through that?
MS. HYDE: It shouldn't be. Disregard that line.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Disregard, okay.
MS. HYDE: I don't know why it did that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Same question, go down to
1.20.
MS. HYDE: Well, that one --
MS. DECKER: That one is.
MS. HYDE: That one is a line, and that was based
on what y'all said here. As long as it didn't impact the
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budget, promotions were up to the department heads or elected
officials.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And so the Commissioners
Court, in the budget process, puts "X" amount of dollars in
the budget for promotions, and then we're out of it, and
the -- not department head, but the elected official --
MS. HYDE: Elected official.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- then determines who gets
that. Is there anything -- did we say anything anywhere
about you can't give it all to one person? Or you must give
it all to one person, or anything like that?
~! MS. HYDE: No, sir.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's free -- free to do what
they want to. What does "PAC" stand for?
MS. HYDE: Personnel assignment change.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry? One more time.
MS. HYDE: Personnel assignment change. Everyone
fills those out.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, I'm not sure
I agree with what Buster just said.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: About allowing --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't think that's what
we're approving.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're approving salary and
position schedules.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. We --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And like this morning,
something comes up and they -- a person that has a lot of
years quits, or is released; then you can take that money and
reassign and do some different things with it, is the way I
understand it.
MS. UECKER: I think that's different than this,
though, isn't it? Let's see. But --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't know anything about
promotions. We don't authorize promotions. Unless --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What do we call those things
we used to do? You would have a lump of money to give to an
employee that went above and beyond the call of duty.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Merit.
MS. UECKER: Merit.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A merit raise. That's what
I was referring to.
MS. UECKER: No, a merit is different from a
promotion.
'~, COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Let's talk about it
for a minute. Talk to me about what the difference is
between --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Merit's on the same -- you're
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going up a number. I mean --
MS. UECKER: Merit is 1.16.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, we're going to get to it
in a minute?
MS. UECKER: No, we've already done it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Promotions are going up the
ladder.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This morning we did some
promotions.
MS. BOLIN: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And some merits.
I MS. HYDE: And some merits.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And some merits.
MS. HYDE: You did both.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: As I see it, a 14 to a 15 is a
~ promotion.
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A 14-1 to a 14-3 is a merit.
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
MS. UECKER: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Even though the pay may be the
same.
MS. UECKER: Description change or whatever.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or you can still adjust --
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still carry the same pay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tell me what a promotion is.
MS. HYDE: Promotion would be going from one grade
to the next grade. A 14 to a 15 would be a promotion.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And why would you do that?
MS. HYDE: Increased responsibilities.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
MS. HYDE: But a merit increase is more that it's
in the same grade, so it would be, like, a 14-1 to a 14-3 or
a 14-4.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
MS. HYDE: And that is not used to recognize
increased duties or responsibilities. That wouldn't be a
promotion.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's extraordinary
performance within the grade.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Above the call of duty.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: See, I don't think that -- I
think that if you're going to -- the fact that you can do it
within your budget -- say you have -- let's use the situation
we had today. You had a -- a 17-8 leave, so you have some
money there. I don't think you can go and take one of your
', 14's and push them up to a 15 just 'cause you have the money,
without coming to the Court, 'cause you're changing the
position schedule. To me, you can do a promotion from -- a
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clerk that's doing a great job and you want to promote to a
supervisor, you can do that and go across, but you can't add
a new position in your office. Does that make sense?
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They didn't do that this
~ morning.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know. Well, they kind of
did; they raised --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, they didn't add a new
position. They just went up on --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But they went up -- they
started out with two 14's, a 15, and a 17, and they ended up
with a 14 and a 15, a 16, and a 17.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They didn't add a position;
they replaced one at a lesser salary.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But they added -- if you look
at the schedule, she went from two 14's, a 16 -- or 15 and a
17, to a 14, a 15, a 16, and a 17. That's a -- that has to
come to the Court, in my mind, 'cause they -- she changed a
14 to a 16.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. HYDE: So, what kind of language can you put in
there to cover that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, to me, it's tied back
to the -- the position schedule that's approved. They can
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work within that schedule any way they want.
MS. HYDE: If they're going to modify a position --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If they're going to modify the
position schedule --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They can't modify the
schedule.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They can't.
MS. HYDE: Is there a disclaimer that we can put on
every single one of them? You have no idea what I'm talking
about?
MS. BOLIN: Is that what you considered that I did
this morning?
MS. HYDE: Something --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, because you ended up
with -- you started out with -- one of the 14's went up to a
higher level.
MS. BOLIN: Right, 'cause he took over a
supervisory position.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But your overall office did --
you gained -- went from two 14's, a 15, and a 17, to a 14,
15, 16, and 17.
MS. BOLIN: Okay. So, even though I didn't
actually add a physical person, but just a grade changed,
that's -- okay. Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Increasing grade has to be done
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by the Court, 'cause that has long-term budget implications.
MS. HYDE: Is that what you want me to put?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I mean. I don't
know how you say it.
MS. UECKER: I think simple enough language would
be that if it has a --
MS. HYDE: Budget ramifications, it needs to come
through the Court.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's not it, though, because
you can add someone for this year with no budget
implications, but it will next year, or it could.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Short or long term.
MS. UECKER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Long term, it will. You can't
change the position schedule without getting Court approval.
MS. UECKER: But it may not do it the next year
either.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, because of the step --
because the steps are varied.
MS. PIEPER: I'm completely confused on this now.
MS. HYDE: I'm just looking for --
MS. UECKER: You're supposed to suggest stuff.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you something.
How -- like, if you -- first of all, are we putting, like, a
pot of money in the budget, and then the elected official
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comes along in the middle of the year and wants to promote
someone, then they have that money to promote without
permission from the Commissioners Court?
MS. HYDE: No, sir.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where does the money come
from, then? How does that work?
MS. HYDE: A promotion --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So if you need new money,
you got to come through here.
MS. HYDE: That's right. If you need additional
money, it has to be approved.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
MS. HYDE: 'Cause it's not in the budget.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm happy with that. Now,
my other question, you get down the road a couple of years,
and you -- you can see where you promoted Sally Sue a couple
of steps, but goddog, I can't remember how that happened.
How did -- how did Sally Sue get from this point to this
point? So, what kind of records -- what kind of history do
you show -- without coming through here and getting in the
record, how do you -- how do you know how -- I'm not fussing,
I'm just --
I~ MS. PIEPER: The PAC forms.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm a stickler for getting
everything down on the record so we'll know in the future
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what happened.
MS. PIEPER: The PAC forms.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Huh?
MS. PIEPER: The P.A.C. forms.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The PAC forms. The P.A.C.
forms.
MS. UECKER: That's a form that says who the
employee is, what to change --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know what it is. I just
got through asking the question. Okay. So, you're happy
with the PAC form being the -- being the record?
MS. HYDE: What we've said in most of these, and
maybe it's not underlined enough, is that, like,
performance-based merit increases, performance appraisals,
funds availability, and approval of Commissioners Court. I
think we're just needing a little bit of clarification with
how much. I mean, where does -- where does it go? I look at
it personally -- right now, how I'm doing it is, if there's a
change, if it's not in my position schedule -- let's say in
my office; we'll use my office. I have a part-timer, a
full-timer, and me. If I'm going to hire somebody -- let's
say my part-timer says, "Stick it, I'm gone," and I'm going
to hire somebody. Then if I'm going to hire a full-timer, I
need to come back, 'cause it's not there. If I'm going to
hire a part-timer at the same rate or lower, then I don't
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need to come.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just go do it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That doesn't deal with
promotion.
MS. HYDE: If I'm going to take and I want to go
from budget to budget, just like I did -- I wanted to raise a
grade; I got permission from the Court to do it during budget
process.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't we say something
to the -- something to the effect that promotions that have
departmental budgetary impact are subject to Commissioners
Court approval?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it says it now.
MS. UECKER: I think it says that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why are we arguing about
this? (Laughter.)
MS. UECKER: I think the whole thing is, that
', should not be struck out of -- that line should not be there
either.
MS. HYDE: Well, it says -- well, but, see, that
line was put in because at the last meeting, they said put it
in. And, no offense, Commissioner Letz, it was you.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How --
MS. HYDE: Because you said it didn't need to come
through --
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: I said -- well, what are you
saying I said?
MS. HYDE: I don't think that's what you meant.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want that line in or out? I
don't think it needs to be there.
MS. HYDE: Sixteen, you said mark -- on Page 16,
where it says, All promotions are subject to the
Commissioners Court -- court approval, you had me mark it
out.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have any problem with
that not being there. I don't think it needs to be there. I
think it's above it that's the critical part. Has to be
within the position schedule and budget limits. You can't --
you can't --
MS. UECKER: It says that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- that covers it, to
me. Because if you had your three people in your office, and
your 17 leaves, you can't hire an 18 -- at a Grade 18 without
getting Court -- changing that spot.
MS. HYDE: Even if -- even if my 17 would equal an
18, say, money?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can't do it.
MS. HYDE: That's still playing in the numbers.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, cannot change it.
MS. HYDE: In my opinion.
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MS. UECKER: I think it's okay the way it's
I written.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I like the way it's written;
it's all right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It tells you what you can't
do, doesn't tell you what you have to do.
MS. HYDE: Because it's kind of a gray area.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But any time that you need
new money, you got to -- that's the only time you're going to
come in here.
MS. HYDE: Or a promotion.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, promotion.
MS. HYDE: New money outside the budget.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think I go back to my
suggestion; it just ties it all together. The first
sentence, okay, because that tells you what you can't do.
Second sentence says any -- or promotions that have
budgetary -- departmental budgetary impact must be approved
by Commissioners Court. That ties the two together.
MS. HYDE: Kathy, can you read back what he just
said?
THE REPORTER: Not without my glasses.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The shorthand is in the
'~~ ditch today?
MS. HYDE: Oh, yeah. I got, "any promotions
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that..."
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay, let me see if I
understand what you're saying, then, Commissioner. Say I
have a sergeant that quits, and I'm going to promote one of
my deputies into that sergeant's position. Now, that
position's already Court-approved, okay? And a sergeant's
starting salary is already Court-approved. But because that
deputy has been there ten years -- maybe that sergeant had
only been there five years, all right? That deputy's going
to actually go into that position at a higher pay than that
sergeant that quit was making, because of his longevity.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're covered by the first
sentence.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. But then when I hire a
deputy, all right, it may actually -- to replace that one
that got promoted up, it should go down, you know, hopefully,
because of the longevity, and wouldn't have a long-term
budgetary impact.
MS. HYDE: I disagree with what you just said, sir.
Respectfully disagree, because if he has a sergeant at a 25.5
position, and then he has a deputy that is a 21.5-12, that's
higher than that 21 -- that 25.5.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right.
MS. HYDE: So that is outside the budget. That is
outside the position schedule. Therefore, it should come
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through Commissioners Court.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your explanation is a
little more explicit than his.
MS. HYDE: Because then, you know, we're touching
-- now we're touching the money. And if we touch the money,
it's got to be approved, right? I mean, you were the one
that taught me about the money thing.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Except that when you replace
the deputy now, you're not going to be at the 12 because of
the longevity; they're going to be a new deputy with the
county, so it's going to drop that way back down.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I rest my case.
MS. UECKER: It's okay the way it is.
MS. HYDE: Any promotions that -- I'll get with
~ Kathy.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think what it is silent
on is, in a promotion, do you keep your -- your step? That's
what it doesn't talk about.
MS. HYDE: Oh, that one will be a two-hour
discussion.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's where we always get hung
up. If you go from a 14-6 up to a 17, what -- do you go at
17-6 or a 17-1?
JUDGE TINLEY: Don't go as a 6.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go as 17-1. 17-1.
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MS. UECKER: What I've done --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But in some cases, if you do
that, the salary's going to go down.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then you make an adjust --
the Court makes an adjustment, bring it in at whatever it has
to be to keep the salary neutral, or a slight increase. But
I think that has to come to the Court.
JUDGE TINLEY: But you don't carry those -- you
don't carry those steps that you've earned through longevity
in the lower grade, no.
MS. HYDE: What we need to do that is, we have to
I do some --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Need to say that --
MS. HYDE: We need to do some education on the
difference between longevity and -- and grade enhancement.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought we did.
MS. HYDE: Because a lot of people's mind-set is
that their longevity is worth something.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't have a problem with
the longevity part of that going along.
JUDGE TINLEY: They will get the benefit of that
longevity when they don't take a pay cut if they go through a
grade increase.
MS. HYDE: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Even though they may start at a
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lower step, they get the benefit -- they keep that longevity.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We protect it. We keep the
salary; we don't drop the salary.
JUDGE TINLEY: I don't see it as an educational
problem. Maybe at the Sheriff's Office, but it's not
anywhere else. (Laughter.)
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's going to be a -- I can
see a lot of --
MS. HYDE: Explain it to them, what -- how your
guys look at it, and gals.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They look at longevity as how
many years they've worked for this county. Doesn't matter
what position they're in.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what it is.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's how many years they've
worked for the county. That's the way I look at it, okay?
And, you know, if you take that away because you promoted
him, so you're now going to take that longevity away, that's
what you're doing.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How do you take it away?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're not taking it away.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because if they kept the
longevity -- if he got to a 12-6, okay? A 12-6, and the 6 is
because of longevity, and now you're going to promote him up
to a 15 -- these are just -- okay, so you go up to a 15. But
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you're taking that 6 away, and putting it back down to the 1.
The officers and the employees look at that as taking away
his longevity.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't agree with that.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because the 6 was the
longevity.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We don't take away the money.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Longevity is what you said
it is; that's the amount of time an individual has served
Kerr County.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. And the --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Regardless of his grade.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And the way --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Time in grade is the time
spent within a grade.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. The way the policy on
longevity that this Court has adopted reads is, you get one
step for every three -- for the -- you know, three years.
First one is one year, and then every three years after that,
you get a step, is verbatim what it says in that. So, now
they are up to six steps.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You couldn't get to six steps
'cause of longevity. Might be able to get four.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: May be four steps or whatever.
What I'm saying is --
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's an issue to you.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is an issue.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: People say all these -- say
they're a 12-10. They say it's all longevity. Well, only
~, maybe three of those are longevity.
MS. UECKER: Well, regardless, but those three --
and I tend to agree with Rusty that those three should be
given when they get promoted, because they're promoted not
because of their length of service; they're promoted because
they're getting extra job responsibilities. But they're
still -- they've still been employees for the county for that
period of time, so those three steps should come with them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't mind the steps going,
but the merit -- the merits that are most of that step --
MS. UECKER: We're talking about the longevities.
MS. HYDE: But you've also got --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know -- the employees,
I think, have forgotten that some of those other things are
not longevity.
MS. HYDE: Right. Goes to the education they got.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The education, all this other
stuff. Some of that stuff -- you know, I don't have a
problem with longevity being there, but that's it.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, the education, we could
get into the same issue on that. Because you do have
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licenses that they get, and the -- and, again, it may be a
wording as to how the County's policy is worded, but in your
longevity and your education policy, it directly refers to
those as "steps" in that step and grade, okay? So, if you're
giving them steps in that step and grade, and now you promote
somebody, the way it looks is, how come you're taking away
those steps if you make them go back down to the one?
MS. UECKER: Because of longevity.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because of longevity or their
education.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: How about if we add another
~' section for -- call it reassignment, something like that?
', 'Cause, really, it could be promotion, or it could go either
!, way, up or down .
', MS. HYDE: So, that's not like reclass?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, reclassification?
MS. HYDE: Do you want me to call it reassignment
or reclass? I mean --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It would be different from
reclassification.
MS. UECKER: There already is one on
reclassification, 1.18.
MS. HYDE: That's what I just said. He was talking
about --
MS. UECKER: I think the key is going to be keeping
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a good record of what's merit and what's longevity.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I agree.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You got it.
MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm, or education.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you and Rusty's
argument, because I haven't heard the other side of it. I
haven't heard it been proved wrong yet. I agree with it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's all -- this needs
to be clearly set out in 1.18, then.
MS. HYDE: Okay. So, we need to add in the 18 --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause this is probably one of
the bigger --
MS. UECKER: I think you can just add a paragraph
addressing longevity increases.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Longevity, merit, and
education. I think you ought to address each one. Merits
are not --
MS. UECKER:	Yeah,	merits do not.	Longevities do.
COMMISSIONER	LETZ:	Licensing may	-- or education
may.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How hard is it to -- like,
if you had an employee that was an 18-7, to show how much of
~I that is school, how much of that is longevity, how much of
that is --
MS. UECKER: Cost-of-living, even. Some of it
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How hard is that -- is that
a computer program?
MS. HYDE: No. We've kept up -- during the last
two years, we've put a lot of that together, based on going
through the different files that different people have. The
Sheriff has got all his, but we've got quite a bit of it,
because we've only been doing it since 2000, so it's not like
they can have multiple --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm saying. They
can't have --
MS. HYDE: -- steps.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of them take all this --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, it would be hard on a
lot of them to go back and try and show that, 'cause how are
you -- what are you going back to? If you take away --
'cause the County redoes the step and grade, you know, deal
every year when there's cost-of-living. They just
reformulate the step and grade. So, if that employee started
ten years ago, okay, what was that step and grade ten years
ago? Is that what you're starting at, and looking at his --
his longevity on that salary?
MS. HYDE: No, 'cause they didn't start till 2000
or 2001.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you started in 2000 -- or
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ten years ago, you can only have two.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just go back to the two steps
', regardless of what the pay was. Say he's got two steps for
that, and he's got three steps for educational. Now you're
right back to what we were saying when I first started.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two or three?
MS. HYDE: Three.
JUDGE TINLEY: Is it the intent of the compensation
policy to pay an employee more than once for his longevity?
MS. HYDE: That sounds like a trick question, so
~' I'm going to ask you to repeat it again.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It goes right to the heart
I of the issue.
JUDGE TINLEY: When you get a step -- when you get
a step for longevity, even after the first year, or third
year thereafter, --
MS. HYDE: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- you get some more money.
MS. HYDE: Okay, here's my argument. That he
says --
JUDGE TINLEY: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You
get some more money.
MS. HYDE: Yes, one time.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Now, if you then reclassify
that employee to a different grade --
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MS. HYDE: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- and you find the step within that
grade which is closest to his then current pay grade --
~, MS. HYDE: We're double-dipping.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- or one just a little bit higher,
but not decreased, but then you add longevity steps, you're
paying him for that again.
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. That
goes right to the heart of the issue.
JUDGE TINLEY: Then -- then four, five years later,
that employee then goes -- let's say six years later, so that
we've got two longevity steps there, for which that
employee's been compensated, you reclassify that employee up
to, say, a 19.
MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm. They get it again.
JUDGE TINLEY: But at a 19 -- at a grade -- at a
step which is comparable to whatever it is over here in, say,
17.
MS. HYDE: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Are we going to add those again?
We're going to pay for them a third time.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think so. I think your
math's wrong.
MS. UECKER: No, you don't --
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think -- because where's
your promotion, then?
MS. HYDE: Here's a real simple one. I'm a 14; I
start out as a 14-1.
JUDGE TINLEY: If you're going to promote, you're
going to carry them up to that new grade, and there's a
degree of additional responsibility. What you're doing is
approving a new position, and you can say, well, instead of
bringing them on board, which would be level pay, let's say
17-2, we're going to bring them on as a 17-4. That's his
promotion. Because now he needs to be in the grade 17
because of the type of duties.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. If -- one way of --
maybe this is what you're getting at, which I can agree with.
If he's a 14-6 now, okay? And you want to promote him to a
17, you find what grade is equivalent to the 14-6. It may be
a 17-2.
MS. HYDE: That's right.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And you put him there, and
then the salary difference between a 14-1 and a 17-1, the
starting, that's your promotion salary that would you tack
onto the 17-2.
MS. HYDE: No.
JUDGE TINLEY: Not necessarily.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: How do you -- otherwise,
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there's no promotion. He's at the same pay.
JUDGE TINLEY: It's determined by the Court how
they want to bring that individual on.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think that's right.
JUDGE TINLEY: At a --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So, if I promote a deputy up
to a sergeant, I got to come to the Court to determine what
salary that deputy is going to make? Even though my
sergeants have a starting salary?
JUDGE TINLEY: If you're going to bring him on at
more than a 25-1, you do.
MS. UECKER: Okay, let me --
MS. HYDE: Can I try once? Because where the
argument tends to start is right there. If -- if you have a
25-1 -- where's the green book? So that we're talking real
apples. The deputies are 21 -- 21.5's.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm just playing with numbers.
MS. HYDE: 21.5. So, if you bring in a new deputy
at 21.5, it's 38,139, okay? When you go to sergeant, a
sergeant starts out as a 25, which is 45,370 bucks. So, if
that deputy has been here and has made it to a Step 5 because
of merit -- excuse me, because of education and because of --
of longevity --
JUDGE TINLEY: Let's say it's all longevity.
MS. HYDE: They're at 42. They're still getting an
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increase. Where the Sheriff and I have disagreed is that if
a guy is at a 21.5-8, and you take him all the way up to a
25-8, that's a heck of a lot more of an increase than Tom,
Dick, or Harry that's down here at a 5.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think it should go to
-- I don't think -- I think you should carry the longevity
only.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, what I was trying to say
a while ago, and I kind of -- I really -- the difference
between a 20 -- what were we using?
MS. HYDE: 21.5.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A 21.5 and a sergeant is what?
25.
MS. HYDE: 25. 43,3 -- 45,370.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. Now, if you take --
he's not getting a promotion.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not getting a promotion.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He's just moving up to a
grade, but he's not getting a promotion.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Promotion means dollars.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Between the 21-5 and the 25-5,
you need to add that difference. You can bring him up where
his salary's the same, but then you need to add the
difference between the two grades onto that for it to be a
~ promotion.
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MS. UECKER: Can I give you an example that might
simplify it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go ahead.
MS. UECKER: Say I've got a -- let's say I've got a
15-1 position that has opened up, okay? I can either hire
from the outside someone to take that 15-1, or someone within
that's been with the county for 10 years at a 12-5. And if
they're at the 5 because of longevity, okay, so if I decide
-- my decision's going to be, okay, if I bring the person
within who is a loyal county employee at an 15-1, or the new
person who has never worked for the county at a 15-1, this
person that I've just promoted from within has just lost
their longevity.
JUDGE TINLEY: No. If he's a 12-5, you go up to
the 15 and find out the comparable --
MS. HYDE: A 13 --
JUDGE TINLEY: -- step within that.
MS. HYDE: A 13-5 is equal to a 15-1. So, if
that's equal to a 15-1, what we've done -- not with the
Sheriff's, but with y'a11's -- is that we look at it. Okay.
This person is already here. This is what's comparable, and
we're wanting a 2.5 or a 5 percent increase.
MS. UECKER: Then it's not a promotion.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what we're saying.
It's not -- you've moved it up, but there's no promotion.
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MS. UECKER: They can't spend a 15. If they're
getting --
MS. HYDE: You're not listening to me, Linda. If
they come from here and they go up to here, that's a
promotion, and we've come back -- we've come back to the
Court and asked them for increases for those people.
(Several people speaking at once. The court
reporter asked everyone to speak one at a time.)
'~ MS. HYDE: We have never had a promotion that comes
up exactly the same. It's -- that's not what --
MS. UECKER: That's what we're talking about,
though. That's what they're saying.
MS. HYDE: I don't think that's what they're
saying.
(Commissioner Baldwin left the courtroom.)
MS. UECKER: Yeah, you're saying it should go back
to the 15-1 or whatever the -- let's keep the salary
constant. That's what the Judge is saying. I mean, I
disagree. I think you need to raise it up to whatever the --
what Rusty is saying, up the differential. It is a
promotion.
MS. HYDE: But it maintains that differential at a
specific -- right. They're not doing it from grade to grade,
which will be different, depending on where they came from.
'Cause that grade where they came from, if they were a 15, or
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a 20 versus a 21, that's a lot of difference, and I showed
you that. One guy would get $12,000.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree with that part; it can
get too much because of however they are in the steps. And
that's why I'm saying you bring them up comparable, okay?
So, they're at a 15-5, right? They come up to a 17, which
would -- comparable would be a 17-2. But now you take the
base difference between a 15 and a 17, the base starting
salary difference for a one.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Five percent.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whatever that is, and add it
to that two.
MS. HYDE: And that's it.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. And then -- so that
would put him -- if it's 5 percent, it would put him at a
15-4 -- or, you know, 17-4.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's two steps.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Two steps, 'cause of that base
step. That's the promotion. The 5 percent is the promotion.
The other got him, you know, unilaterally across and up to
that grade.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because of increased
responsibilities.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because of increased
responsibility, right. He got his long -- his longevity
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stayed, because he went up to the 2. Okay, he went --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: He went up --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Went up laterally to the same
salary, and then the difference in the base is what was his
promotion.
MS. HYDE: Right.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would agree with that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm cool with that.
JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to make it mandatory,
two steps? Or mandatory one step or greater, if --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, depends on how far --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Depends on what the promotion
is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just from a 14 to a 15, it's
one. If it's a 14 to an 18, it's three.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whatever the base difference
is.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. I'm with you now.
JUDGE TINLEY: I got no problem with that. But --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- that's a whole lot different
than -- than every time you go up to another grade, that you
count up their --
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- longevity step increases and
stack them on top. 'Cause you'd be paying them over and over
and over again.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree.
MS. HYDE: So, let me just make sure I understand
this.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Write that down.
MS. HYDE: I'm going to get her notes.
JUDGE TINLEY: Employees who are promoted --
MS. HYDE: Like, from a 14 to a 16 is 5 percent.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- in grade will receive the step
increases equivalent to --
MS. HYDE: The difference in grades.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- the increase from the grade from
which they're being promoted to which they are promoted.
MS. HYDE: Which will be 5 percent in that case.
JUDGE TINLEY: Example. One step, 2 and a half.
Two grades, 5 percent. Three grades, 7 and a half percent.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go up, keep the salary neutral,
then you add the -- the number of step increases you're
talking about.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, I'm with you now.
MS. DECKER: That's what we were saying.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's right. That's the
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right thing to do.
JUDGE TINLEY: Not what I heard. What I heard was
every time you get a promotion, you figure up how many steps
they had for longevity and you --
MS. DECKER: To start with, though.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a compound effect.
MS. DECKER: From the one, is what I was talking
I about.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. DECKER: From one, which is basically what
i
you're saying.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we all know where we're going
now.
MS. DECKER: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Fairly simple.
JUDGE TINLEY: Amazingly.
MS. BOLIN: Okay, now I have a question. Based on
what we just decided, should I have brought what I brought
this morning to the Court?
MS. HYDE: Yes.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, 'cause you went out of
the salary schedule -- position schedule. I mean, not
salary; you went out of the position -- you changed your
position schedule. That took Court action.
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MS. BOLIN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You didn't have to come with
all the numbers. All you have to say is, "I want to realign
it; I want to have this position schedule," and how you fill
them.
MS. BOLIN: Oh, okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: As long as you don't have any
budget impact, that won't make any difference.
MS. BOLIN: Okay.
(Commissioner Baldwin returned to the courtroom.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the score?
JUDGE TINLEY: Six to nothing.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Zero-zero.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MS. HYDE: But you still want me to -- okay. Do we
still need to put -- do you still want something to go in
there about longevities, merit, and education?
MS. UECKER: Clarify --
MS. HYDE: What is --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What do you want on longevity,
merit, and education? What type of explanation do you want
on that?
MS. HYDE: What are y'all looking for on that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've already forgotten that
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MS. HYDE: I have too.
JUDGE TINLEY: We've got a policy in place.
MS. HYDE: Sorry?
JUDGE TINLEY: We have a policy in place for
longevity and education.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: That came in '99, was it?
MS. UECKER: Somewhere in there, but I thought he
-- I thought you were wanting something like explaining --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What were we talking about,
'~ Linda.
MS. UECKER: Well, explaining what qualifies,
how -- how the merit increases do not go with the --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Merit increases.
MS. UECKER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I forgot what it was.
MS. UECKER: Well, merit increases are not
included, do not follow the promotion. Longevity does at the
percentage of what that is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we can be -- we don't
need this section any more.
MS. HYDE: We don't need that in, right. I can
mark that out, 'cause we just put that in.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Changed how we do it.
MS. HYDE: On Page 17, Rex, are you okay on 17?
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Are you okay on this, on Open Records?
MR. EMERSON: No.
MS. HYDE: 'Cause I've got 552.117.
MR. EMERSON: Under 552.024, Subsection D, you
cannot change it. You either declare it up front or you
don't.
MS. HYDE: Okay. So, where I've got the line
marked out, I'm okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Page 17, 1.24.
MR. EMERSON: Yes.
MS. HYDE: Okay. All right. So, 1.24 on telephone
and address, where I've got the lines through the last
i sentence, that would stand. Rex checked that, and that's
under --
MR. EMERSON: Yeah 552.024 does not have an
allowance to come back later and declare. You either do it
in the first two weeks or you don't.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about us grandpas?
MS. HYDE: Well, if we change the policy, then
everyone will get 14 days to make a disclosure, right? Based
upon the policy.
MR. EMERSON: No, this is a state statute, sorry.
A state policy.
MS. HYDE: Well, because there's not any paperwork
prior -- about any of this, they would have the opportunity
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to at least to put something in, right?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Maybe longer than two weeks.
They don't --
MR. EMERSON: All I can tell you is, put it in the
policy, and if somebody wants to submit it, it will get
challenged at A.G.
MS. HYDE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everyone knows where we live
anyway. My phone number's in the phone book.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, mine too.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If anybody's ever looking
for me, I just tell them to call Bruce.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Evidently.
JUDGE TINLEY: He always knows where you are,
doesn't he?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
MS. HYDE: 1.26, Rex suggested the second sentence
be reworded.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that the language that Rex
thought needed to be there, or is that the language that he
thought needed to be changed?
MS. HYDE: Needed to be reworded.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What should it be reworded to?
MS. HYDE: I don't know.
MR. EMERSON: I got this thing back this morning,
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guys. Sorry.
MS. HYDE: It's been a long -- it's been a long
time.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Doesn't the state have that
specific language? I mean, very similar to this?
MS. PIEPER: It does with elected officials.
MS. HYDE: It does for elected, but not for others.
JUDGE TINLEY: He'll furnish you the language on
that.
MS. HYDE: Okay.
MS. UECKER: If we adopt it, it could say the same
thing as the elected official thing does. If the Court
adopts it.
MS. HYDE: Okay. So, Section 1 is done. Page 20,
separation. This is -- this is different than what was in
the book.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why is the dark -- does that
mean there's a change?
JUDGE TINLEY: It's added.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All brand-new stuff?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Added, or needs to be
I decided.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
JUDGE TINLEY: We need to put in there about being
in the ditch?
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think this is the place to
put it in there.
JUDGE TINLEY: We don't like being in the ditch.
You can take a hike.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Changing shovels.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is there anybody down here
that Buster's not related to?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In Precinct 4, no.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, not me.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's one.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I was north of the Rhine out
there --
MS. HYDE: That's grayed not because there's
anything wrong, just that it needs to be looked at and make
sure there's no --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the part about vacation time
and comp time, don't we really need to wait to finalize that
until we finish 5.06 and some of these others that we're
talking about possibly changing those policies? It says --
like right now under, you know, employees receive
compensation for unused comp -- we'll go to vacation.
Receive unused vacation.
MS. UECKER: Vacation would change anyway.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We had talked about changing
that whole vacation system. Don't we need to decide that
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first? That's not this section. Is that --
MS. HYDE: No, it says go to Outline 5.06.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to go to 5.06
before we can do this page.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, before we move off of
this page, I have a question. 2.01, the line that you have
that the Texas Payday Act does not apply to Kerr County?
MS. HYDE: Does -- no, it does not.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does every employee that
relates to your office for any reason know what the Texas
Payday Act is?
MS. HYDE: Probably not.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Should we not have some --
MS. HYDE: See Appendix D.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- explanation?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just decide what the --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or the citation of law?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just put the citation of it.
They if want to look it up, they can look it up on the
Internet. I don't know what it is.
JUDGE TINLEY: Requires that they be paid within --
MS. HYDE: Fourteen days. That 14-day crap.
JUDGE TINLEY: Probably less than that. Whatever.
MS. HYDE: Depends on whether they're --
JUDGE TINLEY: Paid weekly.
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MS. HYDE: Them or us, whether they're paid
biweekly, semimonthly, or weekly.
JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know what the Sheriff's even
doing here. Might be a surprise to him.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He doesn't have anything
better to do.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That sounds fine with me,
Judge.
JUDGE TINLEY: Aren't you going to write your whole
deal?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, we can.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Being as his is different.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. Eva and I have agreed
that the policies in this that affect employee benefits --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait just a second, Rusty.
Can you hear him all right? I want to get all of this on
record.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. The policies that are
included in the County's overall manual affecting employee
benefits or, you know, any kind of budgetary compensation, I
will adopt those policies and put them verbatim inside my
employees' policy manual, okay? But we will not have this
manual.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was quoted on the --
at 2:32 p.m. on the 8th day of December in the year of our
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Lord 2008.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But -- because a whole lot of
this won't, but it's the ones that her and I agree that are
benefits that should; compensation, vacation, you know, sick
leave, insurance, that type of stuff, or -- and that's why
the promotion -- salary lines I spoke of, 'cause that will
affect promotions.
MS. HYDE: And we'll -- we'll agree on those, and
they'll be wrote up so that everybody knows which ones they
are.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does that ball keep you --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I like making her work her
stress ball.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you managing your
stress, Ms. Hyde?
MS. HYDE: Absolutely. Today I'm managing stress.
'Cause if he makes me mad, I'll just throw the ball at him.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't put a rock in it.
MS. HYDE: That way we can keep up with it, because
it's going to take a whole lot to try to put two different
ones together. Like, if ours is two and his is six, we still
have to make sure that it's in there. Because if he gets
blindsided, or I get blindsided, either one, then we're not
good, 'cause it's the employees that will lose on it. That's
not anyone's intent.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you want to go to 5.06?
MS. HYDE: Not really, but okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Is that where we're going, 5.06?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Page?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 54.
MS. HYDE: 52.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 5.08, sorry. 52.
MS. HYDE: What 5.06 says is, how do you pay
overtime and compen -- compensation? Compen -- compen --
MS. BOLIN: Compensatory.
MS. HYDE: Yeah, that one. And this is not, except
employees are compensated for hours actually worked, in
accordance with the law. So, in lieu of cash payment for
overtime, compensatory time may be allowed. The calculation
of overtime compensation does not include any type of
allowance or incentive pay or longevity pay; i.e., education,
longevity, or prior salaries. So, you've got people like the
Sheriff's Office and Juvenile Detention that work 28 days,
171 schedules, before their time and a half begins, so that
is also outlined here. But overtime compensation is paid to
all nonexempt employees in accordance with federal and state
wage and hour restrictions. It's based upon actual hours
worked. So, only hours worked in excess of 40 .during a work
week will be counted. Except -- this is where people get
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confused -- if they take vacation time -- say we're looking
at this week, okay? Or even better, Thanksgiving weekend,
okay? For Thanksgiving, we were off on Thursday and Friday,
so we had some people that worked Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
but on those days they worked nine hours a day, so nine times
three is 27. Plus their eight and eight would, in their
mind, put them into overtime. Nay, nay, nay, because those
two days are holiday pay. They have to work -- work --
actually work 40 hours, and then it goes into overtime, and
there's been some confusion about that.
JUDGE TINLEY: Now, what if they work three
nine-hour days and then utilize accumulated sick leave on the
other two days of the week for eight hours?
MS. HYDE: No, they don't get overtime.
MS. PIEPER: Actual hours worked.
MS. HYDE: Actual hours worked.
MS. UECKER: I think everybody understands that. I
know everybody in my office does.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mine do. They don't like it,
but they understand it, after eight years of dealing with
them.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we say here exception,
vacation and sick leave shall be counted as hours worked.
Which tells me, in the example you just quoted, we got three
hours overtime that's due somebody.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Where is that?
MS. UECKER: No, 'cause it's holiday.
JUDGE TINLEY: No, I brought back --
MS. HYDE: Vacation.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- two days of sick leave that they
were out.
MS. HYDE: That's a line. That's a line. That's a
line. It's missing a line if you don't have a line in it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I don't have a line.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where are we? What are we
canceling?
MS. HYDE: If you look on Page 52, where it says
~ exception.
JUDGE TINLEY: Shall be counted as hours worked,
the parenthetical. It goes out, right?
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. UECKER: Where?
MS. HYDE: Page 52.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second paragraph -- or second
paragraph up.
MS. HYDE: Should be a line through that.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Three lines from the bottom of
the second paragraph.
MS. HYDE: And then on 53, it explains it, Judge.
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If you take a paid absence and hours actually worked exceeds
40, then the employee -- this is what is in the book right
now -- the employee accrues comp time at a straight-time,
hour-for-hour basis for each hour in excess of 40.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Paid absences -- okay. So,
in the example that I just gave you a moment ago, would there
be three hours of -- of compensatory time?
(Ms. Hyde shook her head negatively.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Huh?
MS. HYDE: Hmm-mm, nothing.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well --
MS. HYDE: I've got -- on this, I've got a
~ question.
JUDGE TINLEY: If --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Read the first full paragraph
on Page 53.
MS. HYDE: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: If the combination of any employee's
paid absences and hours actually worked -- remember, he
worked 27 hours --
MS. HYDE: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- the first three days, and he's
got two days, eight hours paid absences. Exceeds 40 hours in
any -- in one work week, he's got 43, doesn't he?
MS. HYDE: Right.
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JUDGE TINLEY: The employee accrues compensatory
time on -- at straight-time hour basis, each hour in excess
of 40. So, we do have three hours there.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Going to have to take out that
paid absences.
MS. HYDE: It needs to be taken out.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The whole paragraph comes out.
MS. HYDE: Yeah.
MS. HARGIS: Yeah, the whole paragraph.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Keep reading, Judge. We can
get --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's on Page 53?
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MS. HYDE: The next paragraph on that page, we kind
of need to get some agreement on.
JUDGE TINLEY: The number of pay periods you can
carry forward?
MS. HYDE: Right. Most of the folks here --
JUDGE TINLEY: Ninety days. Didn't we say
quarterly?
MS. HYDE: Well, I think it was -- kind of had
turned into however people wanted to do it, and most folks
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have been kind of trying to work with me, and that's two pay
periods, or 30 days..
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HYDE: But, you know, what do we want? Because
this -- this can get tricky when you start having comp time.
And I use the example, if you keep your comp time, just like
anything else, to carry over to the new year, then you need
it at a higher rate versus what it was intended or what you
earned it at.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, doesn't all that have
to do with -- use of taking off compensatory time, doesn't
that have to do with the department head's ability to
maintain a schedule and his workload? If we got a lot of --
bunch of people off on vacation or other things, or it's a
holiday period, you're not going to give two or three people
off compensatory time, run your overtime up. So, this just
doesn't make allowance for that. It should be at the
discretion of the department head, working in conjunction
with the individual. Because there are other factors that
influence this.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if you don't have a line in
the sand, they have to do it by -- they keep on accruing it.
MS. HYDE: They keep on accruing it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then we get hit with a huge
liability.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think the State allows you
to accrue up to, like -- what is it, 440 hours? Which, I'll
be honest, can be a nightmare to the County, and that's what
I'm still fighting from regimes before mine.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're different on this thing,
aren't you?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, not when it comes to the
comp time.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're not --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Detention Center is a good
example.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But the problem you have is,
you know, I've got some people that, if they want payment
now, would be paid at almost double the rate that they were
when they earned it.
MS. HYDE: Right.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's a whole lot better to
not -- I'll be honest, not to allow comp time to build up,
but to pay it immediately.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you -- I agree. I
think you do it for 30 -- I'd say 30 days, and pay it.
MS. UECKER: What if you gave until the beginning
of the following budget year? Then the salary would all be
the same.
MS. HYDE: Because people won't look at it -- most
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people won't look at it till towards the end of the year, and
then it's an, "Oh, crud."
MS. PIEPER: Then everybody gets off.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good, "crud."
MS. UECKER: And that's a management issue, again,
I where --
MS. HYDE: But there is no real true management
with elected officials.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whoa.
MS. HYDE: Y'all told me that. Y'all made it very
clear. It's each -- so, like, what you might do if you
retire, then the new person comes in and they don't know
that; there is no real management school to learn these
things. So, you know, that's what this is supposed to help
with, is teach people and educate people that are trying to
do what the rules say.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think what's happened, once
it's adopted as policy, there is a rule.
MS. UECKER: Because it's compensation.
MS. HYDE: Right.
MS. UECKER: So, yeah, it does apply to me.
~I MS. HYDE: Sort of.
MS. HARGIS: Eva, I think this works well with two
pay periods in big offices, but like your office and my
office, we have somebody out sick and they earn that, and
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then I'm short again. I mean, and I end up giving the other
person comp time. I'm like trading spaces here. If you
don't let them have it off within that two pay periods,
you're going to have to pay them for it, so you're not short.
MS. HYDE: Not short. You just pay them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They either have 30 days, or
you get paid for it.
MS. HYDE: Can we say 30 days or two pay periods?
Sometimes that --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You already have 30 days.
Let's say two pay periods, then.
MS. HARGIS: Thirty days would be better. But the
only problem is, if they don't have it in their budget --
MS. HYDE: But that forces us to be better at
budgeting.
MS. UECKER: Budgeting.
JUDGE TINLEY: Do we want to say two pay periods or
30 days? I can see where two pay periods could be
significantly less than 30 days.
MS. HYDE: Or longer in a five-week month.
AUDIENCE: Do 30 days.
MS. HYDE: Paid on the 15th and the last day of the
month. You've got four months that have got five weeks in it
versus four, so they get longer.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, 30 days is still 30 days.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, 30 days is 30 days.
Let's do 30 days. And a kick and a shuffle.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or two pay periods.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whichever comes first?
MS. HYDE: Thirty days.
JUDGE TINLEY: Thirty days or later.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whichever one is longer.
MS. HYDE: Or two pay periods.
MS. UECKER: The greater of two pay periods or 30
days.
MS. HYDE: I'm not going to figure that out.
MS. UECKER: That's not hard.
I
MS. HYDE: Can we go back to two?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is this all -- what about the
-- when we get to --
JUDGE TINLEY: Whoa, County Attorney's got a
question.
MR. EMERSON: County Attorney does. The paragraph
right above the one that's in a box when you get to the end
of the first sentence, shall receive full pay for any
compensatory time balance. Traditionally, both case law and
statute says sick leave has not been a vested benefit. If
you leave employment, you lose it.
MS. HYDE: What are you talking about?
MR. EMERSON: If you follow this policy, you're
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going to pay it.
MS. HYDE: Why does it say that?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You're considering sick leave
as part of compensatory time balance?
MS. HYDE: Why does it say sick leave?
MR. EMERSON: It says any compensatory time balance
calculated on the time sheet.
MS. HYDE: Yeah, but that says all --
MR. EMERSON: That includes sick leave.
MS. HYDE: Okay. So you want me to put "except
sick leave"?
MS. PIEPER: Just mark out sick leave.
MR. EMERSON: Yeah.
MS. UECKER: Well, look at the next line, though,
where you added department heads must approve timesheets for
each pay period that includes vacation, sick -- see, and that
-- that implies that that sentence --
MS. HYDE: And compen --
JUDGE TINLEY: It identifies compensatory time.
MS. HYDE: By itself.
JUDGE TINLEY: As a separate category.
MS. UECKER: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Therefore, on that first sentence,
you're limiting it to compensatory time.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And not even vacation.
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MS. HYDE: Because vacation and sick time don't
have to be paid out. So, that --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why don't you just say -- just
add -- to make that clear, just say vacation and sick time
are not paid out, or are not --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are exempted.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are exempted.
MS. UECKER: You don't have to.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just scratch out --
MS. UECKER: Don't you have to pay vacation?
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure.
MS. HYDE: No, it's a benefit. If they kept the
benefits, we don't have to pay vacation, or we don't have to
pay anything. You can't get rid of what they have on the
books. But if they came through and said October 1 of
2009-'10 fiscal year, we're not going to have vacation any
more; we're going to give them five days and that's it, then
that's it.
MS. UECKER: I guess I'm thinking about what
they've earned.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What they earn, they can keep.
But I think we're pretty unique in industry -- anyway,
private sector, of letting people accrue sick days.
MS. HYDE: Sick and vacation.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know why -- no one in
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business does that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Can't afford to.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Schools, maybe. Governments
may, but, you know --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Shouldn't.
MS. DECKER: Now, say that again?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think businesses allow
employees to accrue their vacation time. They use it or lose
it.
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or sick time.
MS. BOLIN: A lot of the ones I know allow the
vacation, a certain number of hours, to roll over, and then
if you go over that, then you lose whatever is over that
amount.
JUDGE TINLEY: We're kind of at a little break
point here, aren't we? Why don't we take a few minutes?
MS. HYDE: Then go back to two.
JUDGE TINLEY: Whatever, but let's kind of let
Kathy rest from trying take six people at once here.
(Recess taken from 2:47 p.m. to 3:05 p.m.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to order here.
Where are we going now, Ms. Hyde?
MS. HYDE: 2.01.
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JUDGE TINLEY: 2.01?
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. Just to --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait, wait, wait, wait. On
Page 52 --
MS. HYDE: Oh, no.
MS. UECKER: Where are we?
MS. HYDE: 52.
MS. UECKER: Why are we going backwards?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, 52, 53, my question still
is, what do we do about comp time? You have to use it --
what about the accumulated part the employees have?
MS. HYDE: That we have right now?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have to address that anyway.
MS. HYDE: Are you talking about the ones that have
it right now, that they've had for a long time?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do we start --
MS. HYDE: Here's my suggestion.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that -- does it need to be
addressed here or elsewhere, I guess is my question.
MS. HYDE: I think it needs to be addressed, 'cause
that's going to be a budget impact item, big time. There's
my ball.
MS. HARGIS: We were waiting for you to turn
around.
MS. HYDE: My suggestion would be that we look at
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that comp time as of a certain date, freeze that comp time,
and give folks two years to pay that out. Because we've had
it for so long, and some of those numbers are pretty large.
And they're -- they're not --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mine are major.
MS. HYDE: And then --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not in dollars.
MS. HYDE: That way you've got two years, and it
won't kill us on the budget.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or pay it out -- well, both.
Use it and be done with it after two years.
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: At least a plan.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Somehow or another.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is comp time -- now I
forget the question.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: What about vacation? Right
before we left, we talked about vacation time, use it or lose
it, or something like that. Where is --
MS. HYDE: It's not use it or lose it. That's what
a lot of public companies do. I think that's how it was kind
of phrased.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But when are we going to
discuss that policy?
MS. HYDE: When we get to vacation.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about the
budgetary impact, talking about basically paying that out in
cash, correct?
MS. HYDE: Because I'm concerned that we may not
have enough time for people to take off, so that will still
be -- still be there.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That should be our first
option, however, have people take extra time off.
MS. HYDE: Right. But, however, comma --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there, you have to look
at each department --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of course.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- individually, 'cause I think
Rusty has a -- I won't even go into it now, but I think
there's some things that can be done in lieu of paying it
out, which is high dollars for what we got, where we could --
there are other options.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We don't really have a big
problem except for the Sheriff's Department.
II SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: In comp time.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think Juvenile Detention
Facility's been pretty well cleaned out.
MS. HYDE: He's pretty much cleaned out -- he was
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able to -- you know, how he was able to do it is during the
last year was when he put in the part-timers, and then he
started using those part-timers to allow his people to take
the time off. And that's a little bit different than the
5.0. and the jail have got, because they don't have the
luxury of hiring eight or nine part-timers.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In reality, comp time, we are
making them take that off or paying them for it immediately.
Where we have built up, and what has built up so exorbitant
is the holidays.
MS. HYDE: Right.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what killed us.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And also vacation time.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, holidays and vacation
are what's killing me.
MS. HYDE: But this year, he's -- he's going to pay
his holidays.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, we're starting it as of
November. We've been, this pay period, starting to pay them.
And I may end up having to do some budget amendments on
overtime at the end of the year, but we're trying to pay the
holidays now if we can, instead of banking it.
MS. HYDE: If you go back to Page 21, the only part
that I think that everyone needs to kind of really
understand, and I had to walk through it myself again, is on
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that very top, no-fault attendance policy, the 240-day rule.
Employees that have no hours actually worked for 240 days,
including weekends and holidays, in a 12-month period are
separated, period. FMLA-protected absences and military
leave do not count. And department heads -- I'm going to
change that; I think we're going to call it E.O.A.O., elected
or appointed officials -- are responsible for tracking and
implementing the policy. What's supposed to be happening on
our FMLA is if they're out on that fourth day, we're making
them fill out FMLA forms. So, that way it -- it is what we
call protective leave. But I just wanted to make sure
everybody kind of understood that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But the FMLA stuff is subject
to change with the upcoming --
MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm, yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Give me an example of how
someone could have 230 days and not be on FMLA. I mean --
MS. HYDE: I don't know how they did that before.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Sick leave.
MS. HYDE: But they could be out --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sick leave. That's FMLA, isn't
it?
MS. HYDE: But we weren't doing FMLA.
MS. PIEPER: Prior to -- prior to Eva coming on
board, I didn't know a thing about FMLA leave, so if I had an
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employee that had been here for 20 years and raked up a
million hours, if they got sick, they got sick and used sick
time.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah.
MS. PIEPER: If they didn't get sick, it continued
to accrue.
MS. HYDE: And some employees took advantage of
that. If they knew they were going to retire or quit, they
got sick.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can't figure out how you can
-- a scenario, you know, going forward. I mean, I understand
the past thing. How you can be gone for 230 days and not be
on some sort of --
MS. HYDE: We wouldn't.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I know a state employee
retiring at the end of this month that is being paid for two
years of sick days.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know; that's past. I'm
talking about, you know, from now going forward.
MS. HYDE: It should not happen.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Shouldn't.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Seems like it's -- is that a
federal law, 240? Where is that?
MS. HYDE: It is something that the feds use, and
that's why I like it.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. It seems like an -- I
can't --
MS. HYDE: It's a cover, in case -- especially in
government, in case -- let's say you get a newly elected
official that doesn't understand, and so they allow an
employee to take off to take care of a family member or
something, and they don't put them on FMLA. I mean, that
could happen. And this just kind of covers everybody's tail.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I would say, to me,
that seems like a long period of time. To me, it should be
shorter.
MS. HYDE: 240 hours is just six weeks.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 240 days.
MS. UECKER: It says days. Including holidays and
weekends --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, that's -- that's a
year.
MS. UECKER: That's three-fourths of a year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Work days, it is a year.
MS. HYDE: You're taking care of a family member,
or you have a baby.
MS. UECKER: But it includes holidays and weekends.
MS. HYDE: Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Clarification, Eva. If it's a
family member that, say, has cancer or something, that
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employee takes off for six months, is that employee on FMLA?
MS. HYDE: It depends on what you're calling a
family member. Mother, father, sister, brother.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah.
MS. HYDE: Yes. Yes.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Spouse, whatever. So, the
employee can be on FMLA for the --
MS. HYDE: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: To be on FMLA and sick leave at the
same time, so that they can get paid.
MS. HYDE: Right.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MS. BOLIN: So, 240 days and not 240 hours.
MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm, 240 days.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Moving right along.
MS. HYDE: I think that there was a question in
Commissioner Baldwin's mind on Page 23, on categories of
employment. This is a little bit different. We've got
full-time; that's 32 hours plus a week. Part-time, which is
32 hours or less. Temporary part-time, vocational intern,
and co-op students, and then casual. The 900-hour rule was
changed, so that needs to change, and I'll update it. It's
by court order, so if you'd mark that out, that's not
correct.
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JUDGE TINLEY: The 900-hour rule is no longer in
effect?
MS. HYDE: No, sir. Y'all -- y'all passed a new
order, because we had one operation that went outside, and we
passed a little bit higher. So, I'll pull that.
JUDGE TINLEY: What did we come up with, 1,080?
MS. HYDE: I'm thinking it was, like, half of the
full-time, but I don't -- don't quote me. I was thinking
like 1,040 or something like that. 'Cause it's 2,080 hours
is considered full-time.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, yeah.
MS. HYDE: But I'd rather pull the court order, and
that way I can cite it as well.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Are you just taking out those
two sentences, or are you going to redo them?
MS. DECKER: Just marking out the 900, and I'll put
in what the court order dictates.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay.
MS. HYDE: On Page 25, y'all had a question on the
outside employment and activities. That very first
paragraph, and the second paragraph, both -- both -- I've got
marks on it for better words; it needs better wording. I
don't remember if that was Rex, the Judge, or both.
MS. DECKER: Sounds fine to me. First one.
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MS. HYDE: Well, I think 'cause I have "any" in
there, maybe.
MS. DECKER: And -- well, just say "an" activity,
then. In an activity.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, guru down there.
MS. HYDE: "Any." Okay. So, is everybody okay
with that first paragraph?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd feel better if I change
"his/her" to "their," t-h-e-i-r.
MS. HYDE: Okay, done.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, let me ask you
something. Now that they're going to change it, do you
really feel better, or are you just you saying that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I really do feel better.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. All right. What --
what is an example of a person adversely affecting or
conflicting their ability to duties --
MS. DECKER: For example, let's say you've got an
employee that -- and we'll use the courthouse. You got an
employee that works 8:00 to 5:00 here, and then goes home for
two, three hours, and works, say, 9:00 to 4:00 in the morning
at another job. They come home; they have two or three hours
~, sleep, and they come to work, and it impacts their ability to
do their job here.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. It's not like a
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Sheriff's deputy going off and working at a beer joint with
his uniform on or something like that?
MS. HYDE: Well, it could.
MS. UECKER: Yeah.
MS. HYDE: It could. I just used this one as an
example.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They can only do it once.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Standing guard at the Lopez
Club for 15 hours?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Once.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's move on to the next
one here.
MS. HYDE: Okay. Then the second one, the second
paragraph, I've got needs better wording, but the bottom line
was, if the person is going to go out and get another job --
when we were talking about it, everyone kind of wanted their
people to talk to them about the job before they accepted
another job. For example, if you're working -- and, Linda,
I'll use you, 'cause I think this was one that we had talked
about too. If you're working in the District Clerk's office,
and you're the one that's setting up all the warrants and
stuff, you probably don't want, necessarily, that person to
be working in -- was it a bar? Like, working in a bar at
night, or being a hoochie or something.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hoochie?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A hoochie.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can you tell us what a
hoochie might be?
MS. HYDE: Whatever.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Give us an example.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Many places around here --
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Moving right along.
MS. HYDE: So, I mean, does it sound okay? Or --
because this is kind of telling the person that they can't
work some other jobs. That gives the department head/elected
official the ability to tell a person that, no, they can't
have that other job.
MS. LAVENDER: You know, some of our lower-paid
employees -- this is kind of a difficult thing, but some of
them have to have a second job to make ends meet.
MS. HYDE: I understand that, but if the second job
impacts their ability to do the primary job --
MS. LAVENDER: But who makes that decision?
MS. HYDE: -- or it brings dishonor or discredit
upon the office --
MS. LAVENDER: I agree, but who makes -- does their
supervisor make the decision? Is that the way it --
MS. BOLIN: Say you got somebody that --
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MS. LAVENDER: Is there an appeal process?
MS. HYDE: An appeal process?
MS. UECKER: That would be her.
MR. BOLLIER: That would be her, yeah. But if you
have somebody that's working in the evening, he comes home,
like Eva said, only sleeping -- he or she only sleeps two or
three hours, okay, that's not only -- that's not only
somebody coming to work that hasn't had enough sleep or
anything like that, but he becomes a liability. He becomes a
walking hazard out there, as far as I'm concerned, looking
for a place to get hurt or hurt someone. Especially if it's
one of my guys and they have to drive from here to the Ag
Barn or something. They don't need to be in a vehicle if
they've only had a couple hours of sleep. They can't come
here and work, that's for sure.
MS. LAVENDER: What I was talking about, like the
people that work the four days on and three days off, the
Juvenile Detention and Rusty's people and stuff like that.
That's -- that was my question.
MS. HYDE: I can tell you that -- that before -- I
have to fill out asking to be able to work any off-duty job.
Doesn't matter what it is.
MS. LAVENDER: Because the more we go -- not just
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the County, but any other business, goes to the four-day work
week, the more that's going to become an issue, because
people are going to go out and find things to do those other
three days. And so that was my question, if there was --
MS. HYDE: As long as it doesn't affect their
primary job, they've gone through the chain. We just have
people that were working, and they obviously -- to give
another one, here's the deal that I like. They take sick
leave, and they're out there working.
MS. BOLIN: We had that happen.
have to watch, such as with my people -- and it may work with
any county employee. If that employee is working another
off-duty job, or secondary job, and say it's at a place where
they serve alcohol, and he gets into something at that
location, it's very likely, even though it's an off-duty job
and not associated with the county, that a lawsuit's going to
be filed against the county too, because of the deep pockets
syndrome, and you're going to have to be able to adjust. So,
yeah, I have a big issue on whether my guys are working
off-duty jobs, and they don't work where alcohol is served.
MS. UECKER: I've had this policy all along. They
have to come to me and get it approved.
JUDGE TINLEY: You've had no problem with it?
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MS. UECKER: No.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I haven't either.
MS. UECKER: And they also understand, and I
require them to tell their other employer that the first
priority is the County. If they're needed, you know -- well,
it happens all the time. Robbin works another job. She'll
call in and say, "I can't -- I got to say here."
JUDGE TINLEY: Got to stay late with a jury or
whatever, sure.
MS. UECKER: So, that's something I've had in
place.
JUDGE TINLEY: I got no problem with it whatsoever.
MS. HYDE: Y'all okay?
MS. UECKER: I think it's fine.
MS. HYDE: Page 26. Only thing that's grayed out
is that I just want to make sure, because the Sheriff's
policy and guidelines regarding security -- you know, these
keys are changing to fobs, so that will probably change when
that changes, whenever he says.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We already have them all made
up and ready to issue.
MS. UECKER: We've got them.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, they had a keyboard
switch go out up there that Trolinger had to order, and --
MR. TROLINGER: It's fixed.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It is fixed now, so they.
probably ought to get them turned on any time.
MS. UECKER: Who's "they"?
MS. HYDE: On Page 27, on solicitation, on my
notes, I have two people on the Court were saying whack it,
and two people said leave it, so I'm confused on what y'all
want to do about solicitation. If Mary comes in and wants to
sell tacos, is that okay? And if that's okay, if we have
anybody else that wants to come in and sell coupon books,
or -- or Avon or jewelry or pocketbooks, I mean --
JUDGE TINLEY: My recollection of where we came
down on that was that employees or people outside of county
employment, if they were distributing or selling items which
were in furtherance of some civic endeavor, that's okay.
MS. HYDE: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Otherwise, no. That's my
recollection of kind of where we --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was something like that,
I Yes.
MS. HYDE: Okay. So, I can get the notes from --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Doesn't deal with the sale
of merchandise?
MS. HYDE: I'm sorry?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This doesn't deal with the
sale of merchandise?
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MS. HYDE: Well, no, we never did put it in there,
because that opened up another can of worms.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're talking about the lady
that sells tacos down the hall here?
MS. HYDE: I don't know. I'm just using that as an
example.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. We're talking about
the lady that's selling tacos down the hall down here. Does
that mean she no longer can sell tacos down the hall down
here? Is that what we're saying?
JUDGE TINLEY: I didn't know we had somebody inside
the courthouse --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's pretend we had a lady
that came in and sold tacos. I've never seen a taco lady
around here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Used to.
MS. HYDE: There's a lady in town that's going
around selling tamales; she came in.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: City Health Department shut
her down.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about the lady that
comes into y'all's place, or used to come in your place, that
sells tacos in the morning?
MS. THOMPSON: She used to.
MS. HYDE: Let's say she still did.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's pretend -- go with me
with this pretending thing. Let's pretend that she still
does.
MS. THOMPSON: For instance, we have a guy that
comes from a church to sell tamales. Do you let him come
through and walk through the office to sell tamales?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's welcome in my office,
that's all I know. It depends on how much they cost.
MS. PIEPER: Somebody sells jewelry that comes in
occasionally.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No.
MS. PIEPER: Some $5 dude that comes in and sells
whatever. And --
MS. HYDE: What's the difference between food and
jewelry?
MS. THOMPSON: How do you stop one and not the
I other?
~, SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Call.
I' COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whoa.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, that's why we're
sitting up here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's almost time to adjourn
this.
MS. DECKER: I think what you have to be real
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careful in -- and we do have a lady in the courthouse that
sells Avon. She brings the -- I mean, there's no disturbance
at all. She brings it in, comes in on her break, puts it in
our break room. It never -- it never comes out to the front
of the office. When my people go and eat their lunch back
there, they look at it. I mean, I don't see a problem with
that.
COMMISSIONER
MS. UECKER:
COMMISSIONER
problem with that.
COMMISSIONER
COMMISSIONER
BALDWIN:
Right.
BALDWIN:
LETZ: B
BALDWIN:
It's one of our employees?
Yeah. Yeah, I don't have a
ut this --
I'm asking the question; I'm
not --
MS. UECKER: As long as it doesn't affect what's
going on, or make its presence out into the public, I don't
have a problem with it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this seems pretty specific;
it talks about literature.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All we're talking about, people
can't hand out literature unless you're Kerr County -- it
says only Kerr County employees can hand out literature.
That's what it says.
MS. HYDE: We left out the food and stuff. That
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was a heated discussion.
MS. UECKER: Well, it's solicitation, period.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just put not solicit. Leave
out the word --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: May not solicit or distribute
literature.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What are we talking about,
literature? What is an example?
MS. THOMPSON: Avon book.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Avon books.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Christian Science Newsletter
at my office; they drop it off constantly.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bingo.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I got the impression --
MS. HYDE: Credit unions and banks.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Join the Ku Klux Klan,
I whatever.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Raffle tickets.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're getting a little
personal now.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I personally don't have a
problem with it. If it's not a problem, let them do it. If
they want to sell tacos, let them sell tacos. If they want
to come in and shine shoes, let them shine shoes. What
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difference does it make? As long as it --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's the key.
Now, if we're talking about somebody, in the holiday season,
selling tamales, it doesn't interfere with work, that's one
thing. It's one thing to come into one department to sell,
and another -- quite another to walk up and down the halls of
the courthouse seeking -- seeking sales in every department.
So, you know, what are you talking about? If a line forms in
front of Commissioner Baldwin's office to sell tamales,
that's what --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And the little girl
that comes through and sells me Girl Scout cookies every
year.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's okay.
MS. UECKER: 'Cause it's civic.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Huh?
MS. UECKER: Civic.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Civic?
MS. LAVENDER: Like I have the Restore brochure out
here on this table, Buster. That's an example of literature
that's put there by a county employee. But I don't ever say
anything to anybody about it. I just keep refueling the
stack there, and they disappear, and I put some more out
there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, can we get her arrested,
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or what happens?
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I don't want her in my
facility. (Laughter.) I dealt with one Lavender for enough
years out there; I can't do another one.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, excuse me, I am
going to leave this fine discussion.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, what do you do? I mean,
how do you let some in, some don't?
MS. UECKER: Where do you draw the line?
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you could put a qualifier in
there that -- discreet distribution or sale of items, so long
as it doesn't affect the -- the quality or quantity of the
employees' work. Or, you know, all sorts of things.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or tamales must be fresh.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
(Commissioner Williams left the workshop.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would leave the policy just
as it is, and if somebody wants to come around occasionally
and walk and sell something, they can do it. If -- I mean,
it isn't a problem right now. Just leave it the way it is.
MS. HYDE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: This says employees can -- are
the only ones that can do it. Other stuff --
MS. UECKER: Well, I think the way it's written
kind of gives us the discretion. If somebody comes in
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selling homemade, you know, sausage because they want to earn
money, I have the discretion to say no. Policy says you
can't come in.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
MS. UECKER: But if it's the --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But say that --
MS. UECKER: -- high school coming in selling
sausage to benefit, you know, football uniforms, then --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm glad you threw that in;
that hit well with Buster.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that makes it okay.
Baseball? No.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait a minute.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, that's what we're
dealing with, kind of, is football's okay, but baseball's
not. Tamales is good, but hamburgers are not.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Track, forget about it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, track.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MS. HYDE: 3.12, where it says $5, we have the
discretion -- it can be up to $50. Right, Rex?
MR. EMERSON: Correct.
MS. HYDE: But it -- what do y'all want? Do you
want the $50 rule, or do you want something less? It used to
be $5.
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MS. UECKER: That's by statute, is 50.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, it makes it a criminal
offense, but you can also have your own policy, like I have a
policy they can't accept any.
~, COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can't accept gifts.
MS. PIEPER: I know, right.
JUDGE TINLEY: "Gift" is classified as anything of
a value in excess of $50, right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anything less than $50, you can
~ accept.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe.
MS. UECKER: Any -- my policy is that you can
accept it if it's $50 or less, but it has to be --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Has to be to Linda.
MS. UECKER: No. No, nobody gets to take it home.
It has to be shared right there for anybody that wants it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, like a ham or something.
MS. ROMAN: We just -- last week we had a lady come
in --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait a minute, there's a
question.
MS. ROMAN: Last week we had a lady come in wanting
to give us $50 cash to buy pizzas for all of us, and we told
her we couldn't do that. I said, "We cannot accept cash."
So she said that she was going to bring the $50 worth of
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pizza and a cake, or -- or a cake -- $50 worth of stuff
combined for all of the employees to eat, and I told her that
we couldn't do that until I checked with my H.R. department
to make sure that we were able to do that. I don't want to
-- the thing is that I didn't want to -- I don't want to
accept something on behalf of the department, and then get in
trouble.
MS. DECKER: As long as you put it out for
everybody, it's fine.
MS. ROMAN: It's fine, right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would -- it's either $50 or
$25. I think $5 is -- you can't -- you know, I mean, some of
those kind of things, you can't do anything for $5. If
you're going to say $5, you might as well say zero.
MR. BOLLIER: Say, for instance, somebody sends you
a cooler in the mail, and you just take your employees' names
and put them in a hat, and whoever draws it out wins it? Can
do you something like that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does --
MR. BOLLIER: I'm asking, 'cause I done it. I'm
not going to lie.
MS. DECKER: I don't see anything wrong with that.
MR. BOLLIER: They sent us a cooler. It's just a
little cooler. I'm, like, okay. So we just put our names in
a hat, shook them around --
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: $50 or $25?
MS. ROMAN: I have another question. The reason
she was wanting to give the $50 cash is because she was going
to have some out-of-town appointments, and she wasn't going
to be able to do that for us, to -- to physically go get the
pizza and stuff for us. So, could we still have taken that
$50 and purchased the stuff?
MS. HYDE: Not currently, 'cause the current one is
$5.
MS. ROMAN: Right, not current. And that's why,
because of -- of all of this. But if it -- it does change,
and she was to do this again, could we take that, as long as
we kept a record on it? As long as --
(Several people speaking at once. The court
reporter reminded everyone to speak one at a time.)
MS. ROMAN: We could lay it all out, and then I can
make a copy of the receipt or something.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rex?
MR. BOLLIER: Too much going on.
JUDGE TINLEY: State statute is $50.
MR. EMERSON: 36.09 and 36.10.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think we use that limit, and that
way you're either over the line or you're under the line.
Doesn't make any difference.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you -- is the cash included
within that limit? To answer the question that Janie has?
MS. HYDE: I thought it was gifts.
MR. EMERSON: It's gifts, but I think the problem
-- you know, from a practical standpoint, if you start
letting people in your department accept cash, --
MS. ROMAN: Right. Right.
MR. EMERSON: -- sooner or later somebody's going
to be in a difficult position.
MS. ROMAN: Exactly.
MR. EMERSON: Putting temptation where it doesn't
need to be.
MS. ROMAN: Exactly.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we probably ought to
say gifts, not -- or just exclude cash.
MS. HYDE: So this would be okay, then.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: State law, but not cash.
MS. ROMAN: Right. Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Non-cash -- except non-cash gifts.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MS. HYDE: So, use non-cash here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MS. HYDE: Are we supposed to be done at 3:30?
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. We're almost there.
JUDGE TINLEY: What do we got, a couple more pages?
MS. HYDE: Progressive discipline there is what
everyone agreed to; there was no change. Informal
counseling, verbal warning, written warning, final written
warning, or suspension/separation, of course. Depending on
what they do, it can go, like, to separation immediately.
Again, that's up to the department head/elected official or
appointed official, but typically we talk about it.
MS. HARGIS: What page are you on?
MS. HYDE: 29. 3.14 was the one that there was
some discussion on last time, I believe.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
MS. HYDE: We updated it. When you get to Page 30,
that's where the questions came in. Are we going to do drug
testing on small fender-benders? Deer? Are we going to
follow D.O.T. regs?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Follow D.O.T.
MS. HYDE: Okay. Then I'll put in the D.O.T. reg,
if that's what y'all want. The valid driver's license, like
I said this morning, we're doing that, and -- and you got to
have a valid driver's license to work here. Does everyone
agree with that?
MS. UECKER: No.
MS. HYDE: Texas driver's license.
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I SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: To work, or to operate one of
the county vehicles?
MS. HYDE: To operate the county vehicle.
MS. UECKER: Well, that's different than working.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's different.
MS. UECKER: Give me the ball.
MS. HYDE: Any questions on that? 3.15 --
MS. UECKER: As long as it says operate a county
I vehicle.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's what it says.
MS. HARGIS: You have it just right. You have it
right.
MS. HYDE: And if they do not maintain a safe
driving record -- y'all agree with that?
MS. HARGIS: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yes.
MS. HYDE: Okay. And then suspension or revocation
of the driver's license of an employee who is assigned as a
vehicle or equipment operator may result in a demotion or
separation. Everyone okay with that one?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes.
MS. HYDE: Especially if they don't report.
There's a "may"; it's not -- doesn't say always or must.
JUDGE TINLEY: If their job requires them to drive
a vehicle, it's going to, sure.
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MS. HYDE: Okay. Our no rider policy is basically
on the use of equipment and vehicles. Violations can be
separation and possible prosecution.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait. Just a typo on it.
MS. HYDE: On which?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under valid -- 3.15.
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Last sentence.
MS. HYDE: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Employee who is assigned as a
vehicle.
MS. HYDE: As a vehicle? Well, yeah, is assigned
as a vehicle or equipment operator.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, as a vehicle -- okay.
You're right.
MS. HYDE: Thank you. That was great. There were
some questions earlier, and I --
JUDGE TINLEY: In addition to suspension or
revocation of a driver's license, --
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- I think you need to add to that
if an individual has their driver's license suspended or
revoked, or if they are removed from insurance coverage
I~ because of their driving record or for any reason. Now, it
may just be that they have a number of moving violations, and
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TAC says no, we're not going to take them.
MS. HYDE: Right, which we've got.
JUDGE TINLEY: And their job requires them to drive
equipment.
MS. HARGIS: We need to make that real clear here,
too. TAC will not allow us to drive -- will remove some
people. We just had some people removed because they had too
many tickets, so please watch your employees.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Persons not -- not approved
for coverage by our -- by our insurance carrier.
MS. HYDE: Uninsurability.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You may also want that they
must have the appropriate restrictions.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I was thinking,
too, 'cause they're --
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whether it be commercial,
noncommercial, whatever. What they're required to have.
MR. EMERSON: Well, if you're going to do that, you
need to include occupational licenses as not qualifying.
JUDGE TINLEY: 'Cause we can't get them insured,
yeah. Well, if they're revoked or suspended, or who -- or
not accepted for insurance by our insurance carrier, if
they're not accepted, why, they're -- that's going to cover
the occupational, wouldn't it?
MR. EMERSON: Yeah.
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SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Uninsurable.
MS. HYDE: Okay.
MS. HARGIS: And any action -- just put in another
thing. One of the people, both this year and last year, I
got a letter on was just because they forgot to go down and
get their driver's license renewed here. So, be sure that --
you know, you might just say to your employees --
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it says "may."
MS. HARGIS: Well, these are people who forgot to
go down and get it renewed.
JUDGE TINLEY: I understand, but it says "may" be
separated.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or demoted.
JUDGE TINLEY: Or demoted. If -- if they just
missed the renewal date, it's correctable, and their job
doesn't require them, why --
MS. HARGIS: I'm just saying that those department
heads who have employees who are using vehicles, that they
might remind them to be sure to get their driver's license up
to date.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MS. HARGIS: And renewed.
MS. HYDE: Use of equipment and vehicles, we don't
have any questions, but y'all might have, except where I had
to take out an "and" on the next page.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does that conform to our most
recent court order about all that? We've discussed that one
quite a bit.
it MS. HYDE: I believe so. Do you want me to pull
I~ the court order and just validate it one more time?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
II MS. HYDE: Cheryl, will you pull it for me?
Jannett, didn't you have something on 3.17 you wanted to add,
on the phone system?
MS. PIEPER: I do. I think we need to take out
that the County may not place personal long-distance
telephone calls, because even if they're calling their
dentist in Comfort, that's a long distance telephone call,
and which some of my people do, but they always pay for their
calls. In fact, if they should have to fax something off to
someplace -- doesn't happen very often, but occasionally.
MS. HYDE: What does everybody think?
MS. PIEPER: Well, it's already -- it says
employees may be required to reimburse Kerr County for
charges resulting from their personal use of the telephone.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It says here county employees
and officials may not place personal long-distance telephone
calls on county telephones.
MR. EMERSON: Doesn't say shall. "May."
MS. HYDE: Thank you. I got one right out of 60.
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'~, SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Don't ask me, Judge.
JUDGE TINLEY: Can you explain what that was about?
MS. HYDE: Yeah. 'Cause normally I had the wrong
word, "shall" or "may."
JUDGE TINLEY: So, what did we do with that
sentence?
MS. HYDE: We haven't done anything yet. Y'all
haven't told me what you want.
JUDGE TINLEY: How about we say may not place
unreimbursed personal long-distance telephone calls?
MS. PIEPER: Can we include the words --
MR. EMERSON: If you do that, then change it to
"shall." Shall not.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HYDE: Okay. Shall not place unreimbursed
personal long distance telephone calls, faxes -- or faxes, or
what was the other one?
MS. PIEPER: That's it.
MS. UECKER: A fax is a call.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know about that last
sentence. Cell phone must be turned off?
MS. HYDE: Unless otherwise approved by department
head or supervisor. There's several --
MS. UECKER: Oh, yeah.
MS. HYDE: Okay, here we go. It's not me.
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101
MS. UECKER: It is me.
MS. ROMAN: I got a major issue with that in my
department, because I'm not always in the office to watch
what's going on with the office people, and I have loads of
texting. And I can call the office and nobody's answering
the county phones because they're on their personal phones,
and I'm not having it.
MS. UECKER: Mm-hmm.
MS. ROMAN: So I sent a memo out; I put a stop to
it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think it should be a
county policy. You can do that in your office.
MR. BOLLIER: I do that in mine, too.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's up to the supervisor.
MR. BOLLIER: I don't allow them -- they have their
county cell phone, so why do they need a personal?
MS. ROMAN: I think this is happening pretty much
in every department.
MS. UECKER: Mine includes the public that comes in
the office. There's a big sign that says you have to turn
your damn cell phone off.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Basically, with all the phones
that rang here today, we're not doing a good job with it. It
seems to me that --
MS. HYDE: It's one of those disclaimers, so that
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no one thinks they have to follow this; they can still have
their discretion as an elected official or department head
MS. ROMAN: I think people take advantage of their
cell phones, personally, and I think it should be on there.
MS. BOLIN: I can give you a good example. We were
in our insurance meeting last week, and the place was packed,
and somebody's phone kept going off in the back, and they
concluded the conversation every time with "I love you."
Now, that's not anything but personal.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: How do you know? (Laughter.)
MS. BOLIN: And there's nothing worse than having
to stop what you're doing so that somebody can finish with
their phone call before you can get on with business. And we
have the same thing Linda does; we put signs up. We don't
have customers -- if they're at the counter and they're
talking, they can go back to the end of the line, so that we
can keep up with people.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- that's not what we're
talking about. We're talking about employees.
MS. BOLIN: My employees don't have their phones on
during the day.
MS.	UECKER:	Oh,	no.
MS.	HYDE:	Break	and lunch.
MS. UECKER: They better be off.
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MS. BOLIN: That's right.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, it wouldn't pertain to
mine, but one thing that did happen, such as my chief deputy,
he had a county cell phone, but they kind of got after him
because he had too many minutes on it. So, what he ended up
doing was getting his own cell phone, okay, personal policy,
and that's the only phone he has now. And he does all --
uses it -- he didn't want to carry two phones either, so he
uses it for everything, and he pays the bill with that
understanding.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's the option we
have.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. So that's the personal
cell phone, but he -- it's both county and personal.
MS. ROMAN: Well, like, my personal cell phone, you
know, I get tons of calls from -- tons of county calls on my
personal phone.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move on.
MS. HYDE: Use of county credit cards. There was
no questions. Access to personnel file. I'm going to keep
going, unless you guys stop me.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
MS. HYDE: Do what?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think that's being
enforced county-wide. I hear phones all the time. So, I
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mean, I think if you're going to have a rule, you ought to
follow them. I hope people follow them.
MS. HYDE: 3.18 is use of credit cards. 19 was
access to personnel files. I'm going to have Rex -- 'cause
there's one more thing. There's some new guidelines out on
that that states that we do not -- what we do not have to
give out, and we can tell them no, period.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go through it.
MS. HYDE: Medical files, same thing. Then, when
we got to 3.21, we had talked about holding back pay, but
because of the budget, you can mark that out. There is no --
we don't have the money do that. 'Cause right now, people
get paid; there is no hold-back.
MS. UECKER: What page are you on?
MS. HYDE: 32. We wanted to ask that people start
on the 1st day of the month or the 16th. We want to ask that
people would have to start on the 1st or the 16th of the
month.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you want to do that?
(Ms. Hyde nodded.)
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I try to follow it, and I
think she can agree with that, but there are times that I
I won't.
MS. HYDE: I mean, there are exceptions, but we
would like for people to try to start on the 1st or the 16th
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because of payroll.
SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with that. I have no
problem with that.
MS. UECKER: You can try. There may be exceptions.
MS. HYDE: Age indemnification, we've had some of
that where we've had people that were less than 18 years of
age, so we have to have something from their parents.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question on that was, why
does the Auditor prescribe the agreement? The last
sentence -- last line, release and indemnification by --
prescribed by the County Attorney and County Auditor. To me,
it's County Attorney.
', COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. One of those, we'll be
', in good shape.
MS. HYDE: So, you want it just the County
Attorney? Or County Auditor?
i
COMMISSIONER LETZ: County Attorney.
MS. HYDE: Do you want to stop here?
JUDGE TINLEY: Yep.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, we do. Yes.
MS. HYDE: So, 1 through 3 is okay?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And Part 5.
MS. HYDE: And one of Part 5.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Except for cells -- we want
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III everybody to use their cell phones.
i
JUDGE TINLEY: On their own, of course.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All day long, every day.
MS. HYDE: When are we going to try to meet again?
I have to be in Commissioners Court to say when we're going
to meet again?
JUDGE TINLEY: Subject to the call of the chair.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true. That's true.
MS. PIEPER: Subject to the call of the chair.
JUDGE TINLEY: Subject to the call of the chair.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: His.
MS. HYDE: Oh. I was looking for a chair.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move we adjourn.
JUDGE TINLEY: We got to adjourn a workshop? Why
don't we just scatter?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's just scatter.
JUDGE TINLEY: All right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's cut out of this joint.
JUDGE TINLEY: Scattering approved.
(Workshop was adjourned at 3:45 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 18th day of December,
2008.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
BY : ______ ~~C..~ ----
Kathy B~~, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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