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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Workshop
Monday, February 11, 2008
2:20 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
COURTHOUSE WINDOWS/GROUNDS
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A."BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4
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I N D E X
February 11, 2008
1. Participate in workshop with representative from
the Texas Historical Commission regarding the
Kerr County Courthouse proposed window replacement
2. Participate in workshop with Maintenance Supervisor
regarding the courthouse grounds
--- Adjourned
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On Monday, February 11, 2008, at 2:20 p.m., a workshop
of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: I will convene a workshop of the
participate in a workshop with representatives from Texas
Historical Commission regarding the Kerr County Courthouse
proposed window replacement. This matter was triggered by
notification to the Historical Commission pursuant to some
provision of the Government Code -- I can't find it -- that
requires you to advise if you're going to do something that
affects, I believe, the architectural integrity of a
courthouse that's 50 years old or older, and this building
is, in fact, over 50 years old. And we've discussed trying
to do something with these windows that have been a problem
for many, many years, and pursuant to that discussion, I put
the Texas Historical Commission on notice, as required by the
statute. I did receive the notification from the Commission
that they considered the proposed activity to, in fact,
affect the architectural integrity of a courthouse, which is
covered by that statute, and for, I believe, 180 days from
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the date of that notice, which was mid-January, mas or menos,
of this year, we are put in a holding pattern before we can
take further action on it. And representatives of the
Historical Commission wanted to have a sit-down and talk with
us, ergo we are here today, this afternoon. Is that it in a
I nutshell, guys?
MR. GRAVES: Sounds about right, guys.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. In the meantime, I might add,
the communication said there are a number of artisans,
contractors, craftsmen around the state and other places that
have the ability to repair and/or renovate windows of the
type -- or presumably of the type that we have.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does "renovate" mean upgrade to
energy efficiency?
MR. GRAVES: May I?
JUDGE TINLEY: Of course, I'm sorry. Come up and
make your pitch.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Before we go there, I'm
assuming that we're going to get into some of the state law?
MR. GRAVES: Yes.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: His opinion and your
opinion, et cetera? Wouldn't Rex need to be in here?
MR. LUTHER: I have the statute here, if you'd
like to have it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we can get Rex in here if you
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't you think --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think he had to go
somewhere.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Track meet at 5:00.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, he did say -- 'cause you want
to go too, don't you?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I am going.
JUDGE TINLEY: My understanding of the statute --
and let me see that we're on the same page here -- is that
we're put in a holding pattern for 180 days, and if we decide
to go ahead with what we want to do, as long as we do it with
our own money, we just merely got to wait you out for 180
days and then go ahead and do whatever we want. Is that
essentially your understanding too?
MR. GRAVES: That's correct, Judge.
JUDGE TINLEY: You're given the 180 days to come
try and change our mind.
MR. GRAVES: And we always are successful.
JUDGE TINLEY: I see. Because -- because you bring
a message of --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Money.
JUDGE TINLEY: Because you bring a message of, "We
will give you money."
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 'Cause you control the
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purse strings, right?
MR. GRAVES: Among other things. Among other
I
things. If I may address that?
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
~, MR. GRAVES: I appreciate it.
i
I~ JUDGE TINLEY: Go ahead.
MR. GRAVES: My name is Stan Graves, and I'm the
director of the Architecture Division and our Courthouse
Preservation Program at the Texas Historical Commission. So,
yes, you are very correct in your summation of the statute.
It came about -- I'll give you a little history of it.
Before I do, though, I want to introduce Tom Alexander; he's
one of 17 governor-appointed commissioners of our agency, and
a resident of Kerr County.
MR. ALEXANDER: Exactly.
MR. GRAVES: A voting resident of Kerr County. So,
I'll -- so I asked him to come with me today, 'cause usually
we don't have a commissioner that lives in the town we're
dealing with a county situation in.
JUDGE TINLEY: You brought the big guns with you
today.
MR. ALEXANDER: It's either a blessing or a curse,
Judge.
MR. GRAVES: Y'all know Joe as well.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The thing about him is, he
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only lives in one precinct; the other four of us couldn't
really care less about that.
MR. GRAVES: But he's capable of moving around.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not sure where he lives. Oh,
Bill's precinct?
', COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Me or Jonathan.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, he's in Jonathan's.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where do you live?
MR. ALEXANDER: Summit.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Summit.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: My precinct.
MR. GRAVES: Okay, got one vote there.
MR. ALEXANDER: There you go.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't count on it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Don't bet on it.
MR. GRAVES: In 1974, the Texas Legislature passed
a piece of legislation, -- and that's what the Judge is
referring to -- 442.008, which talks about preservation of
historic Texas county courthouses, and they passed that law
because counties were doing despicable things to their county
courthouses, usually in the name of either energy efficiency
or progress or economy or growth or whatever. But we were --
they were tearing down -- counties around the state were
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tearing --literally tearing down their history. We lost,
like, 30 courthouses in the 1950's and '60's, just
magnificent buildings, irreplaceable. Usually a box went
glass was put in. And so the Texas Legislature decided that
there needed to be at least a consultation process set up
between preservationists and Historical Commission folks and
county government when they wanted to do something to one of
these historic courthouses, and they passed this law.
And it's -- as the Judge said, it's a -- a very
mild law, and it's not -- there's no -- there's nothing
really that will mandate a preservation outcome; it just
mandates a consultation period, that 180-day period. And
since counties are political subdivisions of the state -- and
that was getting back to y'all's point that the State can
decide what counties are allowed to do, and this is one of
the things they said the State has an interest in and the
counties have an interest in these courthouses. We've got
most historic county courthouses. I think we've got the
finest collection of county courthouses, and part of that's
because in 1974, we stopped demolishing them and we started
preserving them. And so we work with counties, and we've
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given out a hundred -- well, $205 million as of right now to
ownership interest in all of these historic county
courthouses, just like the people in each county do.
So, this brings you to the case here of your
windows. Y'all, I guess, discussed back and forth in the
summer -- late summer with us about the need to do something
on your windows. We always try to urge counties to preserve
the historic fabric of these courthouses, and the windows --
it's very wonderful you have the original windows. Many of
them have been replaced around the state, so when you do have
them, they're really a precious asset to these buildings.
They're sort of the eyes of the building that people see when
they come up to it, and people see out of them. And they --
they mean a lot to the history of the building, and these are
the original windows, and I think they're incredibly
well-built windows. I went around and looked at them a
little bit. There's some checked woods, some cracking wood,
there's some peeling paint. Putty's loose in a lot of these,
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but basically the wood is all sound; very little rot in the
wood on these windows. They're stained on the inside to
match the other stained woodwork in the building.
If you try to replace them, several things are
going to happen. You're going to try to get something that's
maintenance-free, which doesn't exist, so you're going to get
something with a different kind of maintenance. You're going
to get aluminum covers that will fade and chalk and do
something different and separate and not be repairable as
easily as these wood ones are. The inside will be a softer
wood that will soak up the stain. If you try to match this,
they'll look dark and black and won't have the wood grain
that these historic windows do, and they probably are not
going to be operable. I think the proposal is that they
become just one straight sheet of glass, so they won't -- you
know, you'll never be able to open them up. And so we'll
talk about energy conservation, but the ability to open up
windows when the electricity goes out is an energy
conservation feature in a building like this. Otherwise, you
end up having to shut it down.
So, what we do is, we urge you to restore these
windows and repair them. Like the Judge said, we sent a list
of a lot of contractors that do this kind of work. We've
given out 62 grants to county courthouses around the state
since 1999. All of those have kept their original windows or
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put them back in, if they had already taken them out, as part
of our program. So, we -- we have a lot of experience in
saving these windows. We think it's important to do that,
and we think we can make them more energy efficient and a
better economic investment for the County keeping these
windows than replacing them. I don't know what your bid is
for replacement windows, but maybe $150,000, I don't know,
$120,000. Whatever it is, we think it will take 30 to 40
years to pay that back just in energy savings. That's before
you get a dime back in your pocket, it'll be 30 or 40 years
from now. But you can upgrade these windows.
You can do things to make them more energy
efficient, just as they are right here. You can put in
weather stripping. You can caulk the upper sashes and fix
them. You can even put in new glass that's low-E glass if
you need to. You can also -- if you really need energy
conservation, you can put an interior storm window that's
just a full sheet of plexiglass that would come in the from
the inside and create that air space that a double window
does, so from the outside it looks original, but from the
inside, you've got another sheet there protecting the energy
flow. So, we want to work with you. We don't want to get
into a confrontation for the next six months, but we do want
to work with you to try to save these windows. This is an
original historic building to your community. It's only
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going to	become more valuable	and more	unique as --	as other
buildings	are torn down and as	history	marches on.	This is
So, what we want to do is just work with you and
character of this building. They're part of the character of
the defining aspect of it, and to replace them, you're never
going to have the right look. And those people that travel
and do heritage tourism, they know a building that's got
replacement windows. They pop out at you. You begin to see
that they don't match; they don't have the little projections
down on the upper sash like these original ones do, and they
begin to devalue the building. The state capital in Austin
has its original wood windows. I'm working on a project
right now at the governor's mansion to preserve those
original wood windows from 1854.
So, I mean, you could have a modern, functional
building with wood windows in it, but they just need to have
the upgrade techniques that we're talking about. So, that's
basically our case. We're here to work with you and try to
convince you that preserving these windows is the right thing
to do. It will also allow you to become much higher in line
for a grant someday from us if you ever choose to do that.
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If not this Court, maybe one in five or ten years would want
to come in and get a grant. If you've replaced all your
windows, your -- your eligibility for historical designation
goes down, and so you're -- at least you'll go down to the
bottom of the list in that sense for having historical
designation and authenticity to reward with a grant program.
So, in some ways, you're closing the door to future courts if
they want to take advantage of some of our programs by taking
this action now, if you did replace all of these windows.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We should be at the top of the
list already, considering the amount we spent on the
renovation --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- five years ago. We didn't
ask for any money.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How often do we have to go
through this same process to get the windows upgraded? I
mean, how long is the restoration going to last? The last
restoration has been less than 10 years ago.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Seven years ago, something
like that.
MR. GRAVES: You're saying how often do you have to
repair the windows?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How often do we have to
renovate these windows?
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MR. GRAVES: Probably you need to do some minimal
work to them every 10 years or so.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're going to be eligible for
another grant in 10 years to do it again?
MR. GRAVES: Sure.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What is your grant program
with respect to the rehabilitation of these windows?
JUDGE TINLEY: Windows only.
MR. GRAVES: No. No, our program is for the entire
building. We're putting three to five million dollars into
each of these projects.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you not have a
windows-only program?
MR. GRAVES: At this point we have a small grant
program, but -- but it's only the courthouse program that
would be -- that we're considering for courthouses, and
that's typically how -- and it may be just for the windows,
but, frankly, that's going to score lower than a county
that's willing to come in and do everything that needs to be
done, or --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We've done a whole lot to
this thing to restore it and keep it.
MR. GRAVES: It's a nice building, and I think it's
functioning well for you. But, you know, I wouldn't --
windows need to be repaired and repainted from the outside
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probably every ten years, and that's just the life of
historic fabric. But if that's done -- and I think that's
probably been done, because these windows are in quite good
condition, really. There's really nothing wrong with them.
Never been weatherstripped. They've never been properly
caulked and sealed. There is, obviously, you know, no
glazing. There's some filming I've seen that's been applied,
but there's no windows that have been -- glass that's been
changed out, so if you really want to do a super energy
efficiency upgrade, you could do that and keep these windows.
But just the regular maintenance, probably every 8 to 10
years.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just remember the last guy
that we had do this was actually on the Historical
Commission, and also the architect that oversaw the total
reconstruction and renovation, remodeling of this building.
And, like I say, seven years ago is not a very long time to
have to go through this again.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We didn't do the windows then.
We just --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We did some of them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We did them, only --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Some, but not all.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, some of them.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- and you've already given
the Judge a list of people that do this. Well, we'll go out
and ask for --
JUDGE TINLEY: Question.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- bids.
JUDGE TINLEY: You already answered one. One was
whether or not you got a grant program just for windows.
Yes, you do, but you don't. I mean, that's the simple
~' answer, isn't it?
MR. GRAVES: Yeah, similar answer. It would not
score well coming up for just a tiny little scope of work
when we've got --
JUDGE TINLEY: You can do the work -- put all the
work into filing the application, and your chances of getting
a successful award are slim and none.
MR. GRAVES: If that was the only thing you were
applying for --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We've done everything else.
MR. GRAVES: Yeah, you're in good shape. You're
unlike most counties, which are -- let the whole thing, you
know, get to a state where they need a lot of help. I don't
know. We haven't had any real -- we've had a -- now, Bell
County, I think, has applied for just air conditioning and
some more minor things. They didn't score too well. So,
you -- you can do that, but I just don't think it would be
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the cost-effective thing from my point of view.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess --
JUDGE TINLEY: Second question. You say there are
62 counties that have rehabbed their windows, I believe is
what you mentioned?
MR. GRAVES: There's 62 counties that have received
grants from us, and all of those have had to commit to
keeping their original windows, if they exist, or to put them
back. Some of those are under way right now.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. But those were complete
courthouse grants, and not just window-type situations?
MR. GRAVES: Correct.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Of those that -- that had
wood window rehab renovation, would it be possible for you to
provide us with a list of those counties?
MR. GRAVES: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: Where I'm going with this is to ask
those folks, "Who did your window rehab?"
MR. GRAVES: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: You know, did they take forever and
a day? Cost an arm and a leg? Or walk off the job and leave
you in a mess, or whatever.
MR. GRAVES: We haven't had any courthouse projects
that have gone to completion, so none of them --
JUDGE TINLEY: I understand they didn't get their
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final money.
MR. GRAVES: They've all -- they've all been under
way. Some of them -- Shackelford County, nearby one that's
done theirs. What -- Sutton County down here has done
theirs. Llano County's done theirs. Not Gillespie.
Lampasas has done theirs.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think y'all are just about to
finally get the clock tower back on the Llano County
courthouse?
MR. GRAVES: That's right, that's just finishing
up.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They are close -- getting
close over there. Beautiful facility.
MR. GRAVES: Restorhaus is one of the companies
that does a lot of the mill work and window work out of
Lubbock. Hull Restoration out of Forth Worth is doing a lot
of it. Review is a big company up out of the Oklahoma area.
So, I mean, we can give you names of ones that we've worked
with.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They're doing Bandera right
now, right?
MR. GRAVES: What's that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bandera?
MR. GRAVES: Bandera, we did a project over there
that's already finished up, yeah. They got a grant from us
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as well. That was a smaller grant. They didn't do a
complete job, but they did some -- the roof and tower and
some things over there, I think a new elevator. So, I mean,
we want to work with you. But, you know, it's really -- this
building is -- it's a historic artifact. And just like if
you had an antique car, that car would be more valuable if it
had the original engine in it, or the original windows in it.
And every time you take away a piece of that original fabric,
and certainly something as obvious as the windows are, you
devalue that historical resource.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's been a lot of money
spent on this renovation on both parts of this courthouse.
The first was this part, and then the annex, and the annex
has the new facade put on it to cover up the old tilt wall
concrete that was there when it was originally built to try
to make it all have some continuity. And there were even
wooden windows put in, you know, and now those wooden windows
are deteriorating as well.
MR. GRAVES: And if it would be --
JUDGE TINLEY: They're in need of maintenance,
exactly.
MR. GRAVES: And I don't -- I don't think that --
if you really wanted to do some aluminum or vinyl windows or
something, I don't think we would have a lot of problem, you
know, doing it in that annex building, 'cause it's not
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like to get proposals for restoring these windows.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And proposals at the same time,
really, for new windows, so we can see what the new one would
look like, get some samples of what they can do. I mean,
I've never tried to restore a window or match an old window.
MR. GRAVES: And that will be the thing; compare
apples to apples, because a lot of the window salesmen will
come in and tell you, "We can make it look like that." They
end up, they can't do profiles that are this thin in the new
materials. They end up being thicker, so you get less glass.
They always -- their stock windows don't ever perfectly fit
like the historic window does; they end up filling in or
expanding on one side or the other, and then they put them in
the same pan; they don't do the little extensions that are
below each upper sash. I mean, to really get a custom
window, a new window that's customized to look like these is
usually very, very expensive, and that's what you need to
compare, the value of these if you had to completely,
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accurately replace them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And also, I'd like to know what
the cost of storm windows might be -- storm windows, if we
put the other window plexiglass --
MR. GRAVES: Interior painted storm windows.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Interior painted. See what the
costs are there as well.
MR. GRAVES: Those are magnetically sealed from the
inside. They are very, very energy efficient, if you're
going for energy efficiency in a cold climate. I don't think
they're really cost-effective, particularly in this climate,
but if do you want higher energy efficiency, they do that.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, a lot of what we got is -- the
fact that there's a lot of heat -- they're not airtight,
number one, and that's a tremendous part of our problem.
And -- and then, of course, you got that single pane glass,
and the heat -- heat and cold transfer is pretty easy through
there. Our Maintenance Supervisor had a question.
MR. BOLLIER: Only question to you is, do you know
what the inside of those windows look like? I -- like, the
windows along the side of the courthouse, where the framework
is, what it looks like inside there. Is that all rotted?
MR. GRAVES: I suspect not. Every time --
MR. BOLLIER: Are you going to be able to -- you
can't -- you can't tell that from here, so that's telling me
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that you're going to have to take that window apart to tell
me what's in there. There's a lot of those window frames
that's -- on the outside that are -- that are gone. They're
rotted, a lot of them -- most of them, all around the outside
of the building. I know, 'cause I did it myself.
MR. GRAVES: I'd be glad, after the meeting, to go
around and look at some of those with you. My experience is
that you don't get rot inside of the window pocket first.
You get it on the outside first, because that's where the
ingrain is. You get it on the ingrain of the sashes and the
ingrain of the side facings that come down.
MR. BOLLIER: Are we going to be able to restore
those windows to be able to open those windows? Are those
windows going to stay closed? Because every window in this
courthouse is almost impossible to open.
MR. GRAVES: Right. What I'm --
MR. BOLLIER: I mean, are they going to be able to
restore those to where you can open them and all of that
stuff and make them right?
MR. GRAVES: Well, I think the County would need to
decide which windows they want to have operable and which
they don't want to have operable. That's the first step you
do in a project like this. I would suggest you have a few
windows in every office operable, but you don't need to
~I necessarily have every window operable. You could save some
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money by, say, making that one operable and this one
operable, and the others you might want to fix, and then you
can seal those up so you don't get any air leaks, and -- but
those you do keep operable. If you wanted them all open,
that's great, but you put a new track. This -- this window
just slides wood against wood now. What they do when they
restore these windows is, they go in and they mill out along
the edge, on the edge where that slides, and they put either
stripping -- usually bronze, and they put a track on the
window itself, so you actually groove it in there so it
doesn't show, but it's in there, and then you're sliding up
and down, you know, bronze against bronze, and it works a lot
better. Or you could have vinyl tracks inside of there, and
that becomes a much better way; you don't get that shrinking
and swelling and sticking like you do with a wood-to-wood
window. So, that's the first step. You also put
weatherstripping across the bottom, where the bottom rail
hits the sill. You end up with a little weatherstripping
piece, and that window goes over it and seals tight there, so
you don't get air coming through that spot. And then where
the two meeting rails meet, you put weatherstripping on both
sides of those, so when they close, right where they meet,
that seals off that air spot as well. So, there is ways to
make it more operable, easier to operate, but also achieve
energy efficiency.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
JUDGE TINLEY: If you'll provide us with the
information on those 62 counties, and I have the information
on the -- that you previously provided on the various -- and
they were specifically wood window -- well, that was just
window contractors, and there it was broken down; this one
does wood and this one does wood and something else, and --
MR. GRAVES: I'll try to get you, like, five or ten
of the ones that have done our courthouse work, the mill
workers that did the window restoration work.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I'd greatly appreciate that.
MR. GRAVES: We'll do that.
JUDGE TINLEY: We can get a better handle on where
we're going.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Especially the ones that
completed the job and in a timely manner.
MR. GRAVES: Yeah. Yeah, we will definitely get
that to you.
JUDGE TINLEY: On time.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: On budget.
JUDGE TINLEY: On budget.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Under budget.
JUDGE TINLEY: I'd settle for within budget.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Mr. Graves.
MR. GRAVES: Thank y'all.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sorry you had to wait.
JUDGE TINLEY: We've all become window experts, by
golly.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Almost.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, next item, workshop with the
Maintenance Supervisor regarding courthouse grounds. We got
about half of it left to go. The trees are pretty well off
the -- off the table now, aren't they, Tim?
MR. BOLLIER: Sir?
JUDGE TINLEY: The trees are pretty well off the
I table?
MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. We don't have to worry
about those. What do y'all want to know?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's next?
MR. BOLLIER: I have a list back -- I gave y'all a
sheet. On the back, on the second page, there's seven things
that I listed there that need to be done out this side,
like -- well, like, now we're trimming the trees. But, like,
in the front here, we have irrigation. I mean -- yeah,
irrigation around the yard. And a lot of that, you know,
with the way we have put the gazebo out there and things,
'~ that all needs to be redone, and water -- because it's not
getting -- the grass isn't getting water where it needs to
get water. That make sense?
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
MR. BOLLIER: And, like, the electrical lines that
are all going up -- that go up on all the trees. When I
talked to Mark Duff about all that, he told me that was one
of the worst things that we could do, was have that
electricity in those trees. Now, why, they never gave me a
total explanation.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who told you that?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mark Duff. He's with Texas
Forest Service, who came and helped Tim with trees. I've
talked to Tim quite a bit about this, and my thought would
be, if the Court's willing to go along with it, I think we
need irrigation, and electrical needs to be done first.
Irrigation hasn't been good as long as I've been a
Commissioner. I mean, it's just been kind of piecemealed and
put together. Parts of it may be salvageable. Probably not.
Electrical, who knows what's out there?
MR. BOLLIER: Most of that, I can show you out here
where you can just take your foot and scratch over it, once
you find it, and you can uncover that electrical. It's not
that deep.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's really pretty dangerous.
It's real dangerous, and my thought would be that -- on the
irrigation part of it, I wrote the specs for the terminal at
the airport and gave it to Bruce McKenzie, and they went out
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and got proposals using that. I think it's real important --
you can't just go out to these companies and just say, "Give
us a bid," 'cause you don't know what you're getting. You've
got to be able to compare apples to apples. And I don't
think there's any kind of conflict if I just prepare the
specs and let Tim go with that. My recommendation would be
to do that first, get the electrical -- get someone, you
know, either from one of the electrical companies around, or
the one that we contract with, come out here and look at that
a little bit, and get two numbers. Get the irrigation
number, electrical number, and see where it is, and then make
a decision what we're going to do. And I would do it
concentrated on the area inside the main parking drive, and
outside the area, Area A and B, 'cause we may have to do it
in two phases depending what the numbers come in at. And
once you get those two things done where it's not going to be
changed again, the conduit's in place, then I think you look
at what you're going to do with the grass and flower beds.
You need to go as low maintenance as possible.
JUDGE TINLEY: Didn't the lighting group put in a
lot of that electrical?
MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir, from my knowledge. I mean,
from what I've been told.
JUDGE TINLEY: I know they put it in on the outside
island portion.
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MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir. I believe the only thing
that -- that has actually been put in by the -- by the County
-- by us is what's out there by the flagpole. You know, the
big lights that shine up on the flagpole, and that -- and the
electric work that was out there for the water fountain.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All the lights that shine
on the building.
MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here in the circle.
MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Conduit is cheap; the wire is
pretty expensive. And that can all get pulled out, and most
of it probably reused.
MR. BOLLIER: Some of it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the reason I say that, if
you're going to redo the irrigation, you know, cost of a
ditch in the yard is so much, you wouldn't care about
electrical. If it's shallow like Tim thinks it is, most of
it -- if any of it's deep enough, try to reuse it.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Would it not -- would it not
make sense to remove whatever dirt needs to be removed and do
some -- do the drainage part of this thing and make sure our
drainage is all draining properly before we actually ditch
and --
MR. BOLLIER: You also got to remember that
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sidewalk out in front, too. Some of those roots are pushing
that sidewalk, so before you go through there and dig a lot
of -- you know, a lot of ditches, we need to do something
with that sidewalk, you know, right up here by the circle
part where it's, you know, being all pushed up. And I don't
know if that means that we need to think about ripping that
sidewalk out and redoing it and adding some dirt in there
before or what. What are you going to do with the roots?
You can't just go in there and cut them out; you're going to
have to cover them back up.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the sidewalk needs
to -- get a number for that. I think on the drainage, from
looking -- I haven't -- obviously haven't done any research
type, looking at it from doing a job out here. I don't think
we have to add -- I mean take away very much, really. I
think we have low spots; I think you need -- that needs to
all be done, I think, at the same time. But the reason -- I
think you can get an irrigation number and an electrical
number. Those are going to be outside contractors. The bulk
of the other work I think Tim can oversee through community
service or trustees or whatever, and with a little bit of
guidance from Master Gardeners or me or -- you know.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think that's a good program
for you to get involved in, with your expertise.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because, you know, that's one
', of those contributions you make to the community as being a
commissioner.
!, COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a pro bono oversight
deal.
JUDGE TINLEY: I was going to suggest a committee
~I of one to oversee this thing.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think that's a good idea.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think Commissioner Letz
ought to head up that committee of one.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Luckily, you can't make an
appointment today in a workshop, but I'll be glad to work
with Tim on this flow problem.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One question comes to mind.
What, if anything, are we going to do about electrical in the
trees, since somebody's told us that's not a good idea?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- you put the --
the outlets -- instead of having them up in the tree, put
them down on the ground.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Don't attach them to the tree.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But some weatherproofing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Weatherproof electrical.
MR. BOLLIER: If you go and look in each one of
these big -- I'm going to call them big trees, 'cause I don't
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__
know what they are.
JUDGE TINLEY: Cedars.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cedar trees.
MR. BOLLIER: Cedar trees on the corner, you'll see
that they have -- every -- every one of those trees have some
kind of breaker box in them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah.
MR. BOLLIER: Every one of them.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They all need to come out.
MR. BOLLIER: We even have our irrigation sprinkler
system attached to the cedar tree by 27 and Earl Garrett.
So, I'm like, you know, all that stuff just needs to be -- it
needs to be done up right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I visited -- a lot of that
stuff, I visited with the County Attorney once before on it.
A lot of the materials, getting to the point of sod or
irrigation stuff, I can contact the ones that I do a lot of
business with, and then the County can buy direct through
those companies and kind of use my account, but not billed
through me at all. I'm totally out of it; just getting the
price on it. Or maybe Tim can get a cheaper price than I can
get, I don't know, on some of that stuff. And all those you
can get -- like, I found with sod-type work, they'll do
installation of it, and be -- I mean, I use their
installation crews on any kind of a large project, because
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it's a lot cheaper than I can hire local people to do it or
anyone. So, I'll be glad to work on that, and I think it can
be done. It's going to be expensive, but it's not going to
be backbreaking.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just think it's long
overdue. We used to fuss at Frankie Speakman about getting
something done some years ago, and that didn't work, and now
we have more clover than we have grass.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now that Tim's killed the
weeds, we got a lot of dirt.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Well, that's a start.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're going the right
direction. But I'll be glad to work with Tim on that, get
some specifications on the irrigation part of it, and they
can go out for -- plenty of good contractors in the community
do irrigation work.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We appreciate your
volunteering to do this.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Generous offer.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I figured y'all --
JUDGE TINLEY: You don't think it's necessary we
put it on the next agenda for formal action, do you?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Actually, I wouldn't mind, just
considering the whole situation. But I'm just as --
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do we need to make it an
agenda item?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll just volunteer to work
with Tim.
JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Long as we can see your
shoulder to the wheel, we'll go with that, but if you slack
up, we're going to --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If you slack up, we're going
to chastise you.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Put it on the agenda and make
me do it?
JUDGE TINLEY: There you go.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Make you volunteer.
JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, gentlemen? Okay.
Well, we'll fold this one up and we'll be adjourned of the
workshop.
(Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 2:50 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 22nd day of February,
2008.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
BY : /~~r~~G~~
Kathy Ba k, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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