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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Workshop
Friday, January 16, 2009
10:00 a.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
FEMA Floodplain Management
Requirements and Procedures
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4
ABSENT: H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
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On Friday, January 16, 2009, at 10 a.m., a workshop of
the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville,
Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Let me go ahead and call to order
', this Kerr County Commissioners Court workshop posted and
scheduled for this time and date, Friday, January 16th, 2009,
at 10 a.m. It is that time now, and we are at the Kerr
County Road and Bridge Department in the conference room.
The agenda item for the workshop is to participate in a
workshop with Professional Engineer and Certified Floodplain
Manager John Hewitt to discuss the FEMA floodplain management
requirements and procedures. Leonard, did you have anything
you wanted to preliminarily throw into the mix here?
MR. ODOM: Well, no, sir. I think John sort of
knows where I'm at, and I'd just like to turn it over to him.
And he was at that meeting before, but to discuss the things
that he's seen and his experience and previous dealings with
the change in floodplain.
MR. HEWITT: Okay. I put together some -- some
information for y'all to look through as we go through. You
know, the FEMA is updating the floodplain maps for Kerr
County right now. What I wanted to do is run through just a
brief history, and then if y'all have questions, feel free to
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interrupt me, or at the end y'all can ask questions. The --
the FEMA maps were originally prepared for Kerr County in
1978. They were updated again in 1998, and now they're
updating them a second time in 2008; they'll be effective in
2009.
If you go to that first page, the FEMA is a -- is a
department in Homeland Security, and they're administering
the National Flood Insurance Program, which was started in
1968. They put together these flood insurance rate maps
throughout the country, and, like I said, the first ones we
had were in 1978. The ones that they're updating right now
is a part of what's called map modernization, and the main
reason they did that was to go ahead and put them -- or get
them digital so that you could go on the computer and see
them digitally. Right now, if you want to see if your
property's in the floodplain, you come down and talk to
Leonard, and he pulls out these -- these big maps, and you
identify it right there in his office. But now you'll be
able to go online on the Internet and see if you're in or
outside the floodplain.
The original intent on this modernization is they
were going to go in -- and technology has improved over the
last 20 years, last 10 years. They've got new programs that
are -- are better -- that more accurately define the
floodplain. But what happened is they ran out of money, so
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coming out right now, is digitize what came out in 1998, or
the 2000 effective maps. So, for example, you know, the new
bridge down there next to the Lake House, that's not in
10-year-old maps and put them in a digital format, which is
disappointing, because there's been a lot of changes.
There's been more floods during that period that they should
have worked into the -- into the equation, but they didn't.
So, that's one thing that's important to note.
For Kerr County to participate in the program is
voluntary. We don't have to be in the program if we don't
want to, if we don't want to be part of it. If we're in it,
on that second page, it tells what we have to do as -- as a
responsible community, and I'll just run through a couple of
those things. Leonard has to require permits for all new
buildings, you know, adopt a flood damage prevention
ordinance, and you can read all the different things that the
community has to do to be able to be a part of that flood
insurance program. In the -- in the flood insurance rate
maps, there's several terms that are -- that are good to
know, and I'll just go over a couple of them. In the map,
they define what the 100-year floodplain is, and those are --
if you were to look at a map, there's a couple of squiggly
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lines on a map that show that, that floodplain.
Within the floodplain is a floodway, which a lot of
floodway at all. What that is, is the water's flowing deeper
and faster through that floodway. So, on the maps, they
typically define the floodway limits, the floodplain limits,
and the floodplain limits correspond to the 100-year flood.
And they've always referred to it as a 100-year flood until
recently. They've changed that designation to a 1 percent
chance flood, because people kept complaining that they were
having a 100-year flood every year, you know, three years in
a row, and they didn't understand what was going on. So,
that's when FEMA went in and said, okay, it's a 1 percent
chance that you're going to have a flood this year. So, a
lot of the designations call it out as a 1 percent chance
flood now. So, you've got two squiggly lines on your flood
insurance rate map that correspond to the 100-year event.
Typically, you'll have two more lines outside of that that
are the 500-year event, so that's the .2 percent chance
flood. Again, that -- supposedly, that will just happen once
every 500 years.
One thing to note, when they define all that, they
events in the '20's, and so now it's been 80 years. But it's
hard to define a 500-year event real accurately just based on
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if you go and you develop your property, you need to be
1 foot -- your finished floor needs to be 1 foot above the
B.F.E. And the B.F.E. represents the base flood elevation,
which is what they've defined as in a 100-year storm, that's
how high the water will get, to that certain elevation. And
on the floodplain maps, that'll typically be a little
squiggly line across the floodplain.
So, what I wanted to show you was, one of the
maps that FEMA has come out and said -- and they have it
documented, that the new maps are just exactly what they were
before, except that they've used a little bit better topo
information that they've gotten in the last ten years. So,
they've made the statement that all the floodplain boundaries
that were on the previous maps are going to be the same in
these new maps. And -- and I've looked at a couple of spots,
and I know that's not the case, and I brought an example of
that. This is the existing floodplain map for Ingram. If
you were to go and look at this map, which Leonard has, and
it's a current effective map, right here where the Johnson
Creek comes in, you can look and you can see that this right
here represents the 100-year floodplain boundary.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm.
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MR. HEWITT: This right here is the new map that
'~ they're going to adopt, and that's what we have a chance to
review and tell them if we like it or not. And you can see
that now this boundary comes in, and it goes like this right
through here, so if you -- if you have a business or a home
', right here, --
i
MR. ODOM: In the floodplain.
MR. HEWITT: -- you used to be outside the
floodplain boundary; you didn't have to have insurance. Now
you're going to have to have insurance. And --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's that trailer park,
isn't it?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that where Johnson Creek
comes into the Guadalupe?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's Old Ingram Loop.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right.
MR. HEWITT: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Old Ingram Loop comes right
down here, somewhere right in here, and turns, and this is
that old dam, wherever Johnson -- wherever Indian Creek --
there it is right here. All those businesses, all those --
they're all businesses right here, and there's a -- well,
that trailer park's out of it a little bit.
MR. HEWITT: But, see, here's the new one.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
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MR. HEWITT: So, look, that comes in -- that comes
in like this. Now all these people are going to -- when they
sell their property, all of a sudden they're going to have to
have -- the new person's going to have to have flood
insurance, and that's really the main reason. You need to
know that they're doing that, because word needs to get out
to everybody; they need to come down and talk to Leonard, or
look and see if they're going to be into the floodplain,
because there's a grandfathered period where they can get in
and get their insurance rates right now.
MR. ODOM: At 500. If they don't have it, they
could get it at the 500, which is cheaper, and then they can
pass it along. If they don't, then they're going to be at
what they're showing floodway. It could be -- the cost could
be astronomical.
JUDGE TINLEY: After the new map comes out and
they're in the 1 percent, as opposed to the --
MR. ODOM: That's right. But if we do it now,
then -- then we -- and I think -- I don't know; that's one
question we have for them. They need to identify for us what
they've changed so that we can get this out to the people,
and that there's enough time for these people to make the
decision. Do you -- do you pay a couple of hundred dollars,
or do you pay several thousand? And that's commercial. They
got a flood-proof B.F.E. now, so if they do it, they're
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grandfathered. They can pass that along when they sell the
business, and they're all right. Otherwise, it could --
after the fact, it's going to be -- what it is is what it is.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. Because right here
where Indian Creek comes across, everything in there, this is
the -- this is the Old Ingram Loop. It goes beyond the loop
and downtown old Ingram.
MR. ODOM: Right, the heart of it.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So all these businesses along
in here, and there's a couple of homes -- there's three homes
right down in here that are completely in there.
MR. HEWITT: And FEMA came in and told us that --
and it's in the minutes, that there's hardly any changes at
all, but I've looked at two different spots. I've also
looked down at -- near Flat Rock Dam, across from Comanche
Trace, and there's people that are outside the floodplain now
that will be inside the floodplain after these maps come out.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Before -- this side of the
dam, or -- on this side of the dam or the other?
MR. HEWITT: The Kerr -- upstream of the dam.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Upstream of the dam, okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: But on the stream side of Highway
173?
MR. HEWITT: Right, exactly.
JUDGE TINLEY: On Riverside.
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MR. ODOM: What they're doing --
JUDGE TINLEY: Flat Rock properties.
MR. ODOM: Right. And they're using -- what they
did, they stopped -- they stopped at the dam, the study.
They should have gone -- and we asked them when they were
here to go farther downstream with this study, because
they're not taking into account -- there's a 30-foot drop
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j there, and that 30 foot is going to relate to how far back
upstream does it really take this down? Is it 5 foot above
-- one house that you did for a gentleman was 5 foot above
the existing ground to get I foot out of the B.F.E. We're
quite confident that that study is not complete, that they
didn't take into account that drop, and they said that they
didn't.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, that's ridiculous.
MR. ODOM: Well, we think it's sort of ridiculous
that these poor people are getting -- they're getting some
pretty expensive insurance, and those are very expensive
homes sitting right there. We think that they should have
gone -- we asked them when they met before, before they
started doing all this, to take that into consideration. We
gave several instances of that. Town Creek they should have
been looking at a little bit more, Goat Creek, back over in
there. Of course, the City was asking them to do some
things. I think the notes that we saw here on their minutes
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reflected Bobby Gore saying that some of this data wasn't
added, but I'm disappointed that they didn't do Flat Rock at
all. They didn't do this study --
MR. HEWITT: They didn't do anything. All they did
was digitize the existing models and use new topo maps.
So --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do we the have the same
problem in the area of Split Rock, just before you get to
Brinks Crossing? Do we have the same problem?
MR. ODOM: Same problem. All they did was take the
data that was there; they didn't do any study at all. We
asked them to look up the river, because that's where the
growth's going to be. Mentioned the possibility of the sewer
line and water lines going from Center Point to Comfort, that
that was our next -- we thought, you know, the growth is
going to be there. Nothing was looked at Center Point. I
wanted to look at Center Point in there. But I wanted to --
if they're going to spend a quarter of a million dollars,
don't remap what I've got. Spend a million dollars --
quarter of a million to go ahead -- or let's ask T.C.E.Q. for
some grant money; let them ask for some more money to do a
study that we know our growth's going to be.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We also have flag problems
in around Skyline Drive by the little park in Center Point.
MR. ODOM: Yes, sir.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just in that area.
MR. ODOM: Around the fire -- all that back in
there before you get up the hill there, yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: Did they pick up all that stuff in
the Quinlan Creek watershed as a result of all that
difficulty we had in the city?
MR. ODOM: I don't think they did.
JUDGE TINLEY: After the last flood? They didn't
even pick that up?
MR. ODOM: I don't think they did.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Travis Street, Judge.
JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah, all the way back to First,
Second, Third Street, all the way up to the golf course, and
further back up the watershed there.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
MR. ODOM: I think that's part of what Bobby was
looking at. And the other one may have been part of Town
Creek, I'm guessing, because they have done some studies on
Town Creek with the tributaries feeding into the river right
there. I don't think they took any of that that the City had
done. That was done for them.
MR. HEWITT: But I do know in that area, the
floodplain boundaries are different than what we have, too.
'Cause, like, in that area --
MR. ODOM: Oh, they did change that in there?
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MR. HEWITT: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: Which one are you talking about, the
Town Creek?
MR. HEWITT: Town Creek, right over there where
Town Creek hits Guadalupe River, there's -- the flood lines
are a little --
JUDGE TINLEY: That shopping center and Gibsons, in
that area?
MR. HEWITT: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. ODOM: But what I'm looking at is back upstream
toward I-10.
MR. HEWITT: I didn't look up there.
MR. ODOM: Yeah. That's where your -- that's where
all that land's at that the City's got, and, you know, that
corner where Higgins has got up there, all of that is -- is
going to be developed one day.
MR. HEWITT: Where they're going to go from here
is, they're going to advertise in the paper two times, in
February and March. And after they advertise the second time
that they're updating all the maps, there's a 90-day comment
period, which is when -- I mean, that's -- there's only one
90-day period for all these type of comments to get in to
them, and they have to act and respond to all those for 90
days. And then after that, what's called the "final letter
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of determination" occurs, which is about July lst. So, if
basically March through June to get their -- their comments
heard. And then July lst, it's done. There's a six-month
period where Kerr County has to do a new floodplain
ordinance; they have to go through a revision of all their
ordinances, and then six months after the final letter of
determination, the maps are effective and they're printed and
they're online. So, about this time next year is when
MR. HEWITT: They gave us their suggestions at that
last meeting. We have what they think is a template for us
to use. But there's several things that need to be discussed
in that six-month period, such as, do you allow development
in the floodway? Do you allow it in the floodplain? There's
an organization, the Texas Floodplain Management Association,
that's done a survey of most of the counties and cities
throughout the state so you can compare what other
communities are doing, and most of the other communities
allow development in the floodway or floodplain, provided
that you submit -- or a registered engineer submits a no-rise
certificate, which says that I'm going to put this house --
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or I'm going to do this improvement right here, and there's
no impact upstream or downstream from my proposed
improvements. And that engineer has to sign and seal it.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's the way it is now,
isn't it?
MR. ODOM: We're doing -- are we doing it -- we're
doing it correct?
MR. HEWITT: Y'all are doing it just fine.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're not doing anything in
the floodway, are we?
MR. ODOM: That's -- that is -- personally, and we
discussed this a little bit, and I know that Kelly has
conveyed my ideas or my thoughts to John, but I do not
', believe that we ought to allow any development -- that's
building, mining, anything -- development in the floodway.
I
The question is, do you wish to do something in the
floodplain? I understand there's two different areas.
Floodplain is that backed up water. It's backed up water off
the floodway, because you've already squeezed -- you made a
surcharge on the river of a foot. That is like that film.
If this -- if the Court had seen what we saw on Boliver
Island, scare to you death.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm.
MR. ODOM: Respect for what the water can do.
That's the floodway. That was a V-zone that was calculated,
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and those old homes are still -- there wasn't any -- there
was only one left, and it was at the new elevation, and there
wasn't a wall left. I mean, it was -- nothing. I mean, it
was just a shell of a house. The only thing that saved it is
because it was at that elevation. But that was only a
Category 3.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm.
MR. ODOM: Wasn't a Category 5.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just takes it down to the
sand.
MR. ODOM: That's right. Boliver Island was --
disappeared, Judge. They have a debris line 4 kilometers
long and 2 kilometers wide from the Gulf of Mexico. I saw
films. We had a talk with the engineer for Anahuac, the
little city of Anahuac there. It's about 25 feet elevation.
I think the water got 22, 23 feet into the city. Part of it
was underwater, or water went into it. There's a debris line
to Winnie, Texas. Debris line at Winnie -- as you turn off
the highway to go to Port Arthur, debris line 10 to 12 feet
high, 20 miles back.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's unbelievable.
MR. ODOM: Unbelievable. Now, that was a storm.
But if you put that in perspective of the floodway, we're
talking about the main force of the water. And people are
wanting to build. One of the things we have is health,
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safety, and welfare of the people. Now -- now, it says that
you will not build in the floodway unless -- underlines
"unless" -- you get a letter of no-rise. And that's a design
by an architect or an engineer that the foundation can
withstand the lateral forces that are going to go against
this structure, and that you're at least a foot. Well, do
you think the -- I don't know if you'd hug my neck or not
when it comes up to the door, but you might be thankful.
But, you know, do we go higher to be safe? I don't know. I
say stay out of the floodway. All right. If it's
floodplain, it's backed up water. I still don't like that,
but, you know, a man has a right to his property. But for --
to endanger the lives of your family?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or that you do not
contribute to the rise of the river more because of what you
did; is that correct? If you're building in the floodway.
MR. ODOM: If you're building in the floodway, you
cannot raise that at all, unless there's a no-rise
certificate.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You cannot cause it to rise
more by what you've done.
MR. ODOM: You will --
MR. HEWITT: And, you know, there's an example of a
guy doing it right now. It's Mr. Stallins over there on Lake
Ingram is preparing a no-rise, 'cause he's putting a dock in
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within the floodway.
MR. ODOM: That's right, and a pavilion, an
accessory building. So, he is doing that. But he's also
offsetting that through this no-rise certification, and you
can do that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Like Wharton Road.
MR. ODOM: Wharton Road? That's what I need.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Remember? We've got a
couple in the floodway on Wharton Road.
MR. ODOM: Yeah, but they had a design and a
no-rise on that, so there's not a -- let's just put it this
way. They can do it, but does that make it right?
JUDGE TINLEY: Smart.
MR. ODOM: Smart.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, can we stop it?
MR. ODOM: You can change your ordinance and say no
development, no mining, no building in the floodway. How far
you come back off is a question. Do you come 30 foot back
from the floodway, or 100 feet? You could probably eliminate
a lot of that in the -- in the floodplain. Basically, this
area should be, really, recreational. But --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What do you do about not --
you know, how do you get around taking a lot of the gravel
out in the floodway after a flood if you don't allow any
~ mining?
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MR. ODOM: Well, there I'm talking about --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You said removal or mining.
MR. ODOM: Mining. You're not -- mining is
construed by the definition as development. But you're doing
best management practices if you clean up the ground where
your embankment came out and dumped on -- I mean, then
there's a best management practice to clear that up.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Clear it up, put it back.
MR. ODOM: That's called erosion control, is what
we're doing.
JUDGE TINLEY: Remediation or erosion control.
MR. ODOM: That's right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Not a mining development.
MR. ODOM: It's not construed as mining. And
mining is if you sell it for commercial aspect. If an
individual is doing it and he's not selling it -- you know,
if that individual goes to sell it, that's a different thing.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How do you define what
Martin Marietta did downstream of Brinks Crossing?
MR. ODOM: Brinks Crossing? That was a permit in
there, and that was mining.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the floodway. In the
floodway.
25 ~ MR. ODOM: In the floodway. They're allowed to do
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that. They weren't in the water. They weren't in the water;
they were off to the side. That was in the floodway area
that's designated by the scar or by the calculations.
They're allowed to do that. They can do that. But if they
get into the water and it's more than 3 acres, or more than
1,500 linear feet in that water, then that goes to a 404.
They weren't in there. They were off to the side, and
they're allowed to do that, and there's really no -- there's
nothing out there that Texas has done to eliminate that. Nor
has FEMA, because politically it's touchy, and there's good
lobbyists.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's why I asked the
question. Can we prevent it?
MR. ODOM: Yes, sir, if you say there's no
development in the floodway. Am I right or wrong?
MR. HEWITT: That's correct.
MS. HOFFER: I believe -- and I don't know this for
sure, but I talked to John about it. I believe there's five
counties in the state of Texas that -- they have a poll on
who, in their ordinance, have decided to go against any kind
of development in the floodway, and I want to say it was,
like, five counties. So, it's not a lot, but there are some
counties in the state of Texas that have --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can you pull that up for
us?
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MS. HOFFER: I will try to find it.
MR. ODOM: We'll try to find that, and we'll
contact the floodplain guy with L.C.R.A. But it is being
done. It has been something that they would like to do. But
FEMA hasn't politically been able to initiate that, because
they like to give the states the freedom to make their own
deal, and the courts. You can make the laws more stringent
than what -- they're going to give you the minimum. Most
laws are based on minimum to give you leeway to act within
the circumstances that are in your -- your jurisdiction. So,
they can give you a minimum through their ordinance, and we
can make it more stringent. Nothing wrong with that. But
I -- if we do, really, development, the mining, you stop it.
You stop it.
MR. HEWITT: I'm looking at the city of
Fredericksburg. What they say in their regulation is, within
the 100-year floodplain is zoned open space, and no new
construction allowed, including additions to existing
structures. That's within the whole floodplain order; that's
in the whole floodplain.
MR. ODOM: So, not just the floodway. So, it's up
to you. You can do whatever. It's up to you. You can go
floodway, where the main force of the water is at, which is
the Guadalupe and where it's mapped out, or you can go the
whole floodplain, where you have backed up water.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But development is not
construed as being a retaining wall or erosion control or
anything like that.
MR. ODOM: No, it's best management.
II COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's like family dwellings or
something, or some kind of structures that are built above
ground.
'I MR. ODOM: Yes. You know, and that structure could
be an accessory. It could be a pavilion, but if it's in the
no-rise, you know, you can make some modifications. You can
say accessory buildings are allowed in a floodway with a
no-rise certification. That allows people to go down there
and to do it. But erosion control has nothing to do --
you're not adding to anything; you're saving your embankment.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. Just a question.
MR. ODOM: No, there's some things we need to look
at, because, like I say, maybe a man has --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we say nothing's going to
go on in there, what does that mean?
MR. ODOM: Well, it means nothing except accessory
buildings.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay.
MR. ODOM: Or a design of an accessory type deal.
No permanent -- no residential structures.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No residential.
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MR. ODOM: And then you're going to say -- and
correct me if I'm wrong, but we would look at it and try to
get a better clarification, but an accessory building gives
you a wide variety. It's not livable quarters. It is a
pavilion. It may be a little garage or storage right there,
if it's designed properly. And, you know, it is -- it could
be done. I just really believe that the floodway should be
eliminated.
MR. HEWITT: I know of one case --
MR. ODOM: I think -- that's my opinion, okay?
MR. HEWITT: -- by Shoemaker's Crossing, the lady
that wants to build in the floodway, but she's going to
elevate her building up 12 feet. That's Mrs. Sachs.
MR. OOOM: Yeah. I don't remember -- I know I've
got to get at least one, and I encouraged 3 feet or more to
go -- to be safe, because that water's going to jump up
against that embankment and it's going to rip and roar.
MR. HEWITT: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do you have Shoemaker on
here?
MR. HEWITT: No, I don't think I brought that map.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because some of those
structures, to my knowledge, and from past -- you know
talking with some of those old-time residents, those houses
that are there now are already in the floodplain.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
MR. ODOM: Listening to them, yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: As for Shoemaker, everything going
all the way up to 39 and -- and going up the hill across 39.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, goes up to the --
basically, the Canyon Spring entrance is floodplain.
MR. ODOM: Your FEMA shows about the corner of that
property right there that he's talking about is about that
base line.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is what?
MR. ODOM: That's about where we -- it was put on
the ground up there, and then it came across this thing. But
I'm like you. Listening to different ones that have been out
there, they said they've seen it; you know, debris lines were
even higher. You say, well, that's the reason I said 1 foot.
Everything we do could be construed -- we could look at our
community rating, and the better we are and the safer we are,
then I don't know which -- whichever way it goes, where our
rating goes up by a number from 1 to 10, I think we will be
better off and it'll cost us less for insurance.
MR. HEWITT: Yeah, you get discounts.
MR. ODOM: If we implement some of these things.
There's a trade-off for this. For the people that really
need the insurance or wish to have it, it would be cheaper
for them because we have a higher standard, and that higher
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standard will reflect to a cost savings to all the people
that need flood insurance.
MR. HEWITT: And it could be as much as -- could be
as much as 40 percent discount if you did all their
requirements.
MR. ODOM: I don't know that that's feasible.
JUDGE TINLEY: Each county, then, is viewed
separately and individually as to what they have in place,
more liberal, more conservative, when it determines the rate
structure just for that county. It's not a statewide rate.
MR. ODOM: It's just for that --
JUDGE TINLEY: Or national rate.
MR. ODOM: That's right. And there's --
JUDGE TINLEY: They set it locally.
MR. ODOM: Set it locally. And -- but you have to
follow the basic guidelines that they give you.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure.
MR. ODOM: That's the minimum.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MR. ODOM: If you're going to take in F.I.P., the
minimum is what they're giving you right there. You can be
more stringent. The more stringent you are, then the higher
your rating is as you go along.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The less your insurance
costs.
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MR. ODOM: You have to weigh that. Do you want
people still to utilize their land? Or are you going to
develop -- I don't think saving someone from being foolish --
whether they're multi-millionaires and they can afford to do
it, to build in the floodway is irresponsible, as far as I'm
concerned. That's my opinion.
JUDGE TINLEY: Some people need to protect --
protect themselves that don't have sense enough to do it.
MR. ODOM: That's the only way that you can
logically do it. And -- and --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, most rivers don't
flow as fast at what we have. They don't have the fall --
MR. ODOM: The fall, and the runoff with the
elevations around. It's how fast -- it's not so much the
quantity of it, it's how fast it gets to a location.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You got it. And the damage
it'll do because of how fast it's running.
MR. ODOM: That's true. These are things I'd like
for you to consider, because it's going to be coming. We
have some questions. I am so glad that John is -- has done
this before, and y'all have asked him to do this. My Aggie
brain is limited of what I can do. So, I think that I would
like for you to consider some of these things. Maybe --
there could be some others. If you have any questions,
because I really would like for you to consider eliminating
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development in the floodway. This would take care of the
imminent danger, as well as some of this mining is destroying
the ravine area. That -- that just eliminates it; no ifs,
ands, or buts. You know, everyone's got their opinion about
what rights you have, but understand there's an effect --
there's a cause and effect as you go along with things. And
some people only have the monetary value. We all live here;
we're not going to be gone in seven or eight years, and
there's a long-term effect to everything. We're changing
this river, and it does affect people downstream. As we get
development up here, it changes. This flood -- this
floodplain's going to change within four or five years from
what they're posting right now, because of the development.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not as long as they don't
change the maps. (Laughter.)
MR. ODOM: Well, I -- if you go to Center Point all
the way back up, that whole river has done -- that base is
going to change because of the development, the runoff, and
the impervious material and the driveways and the roofs, how
fast it gets -- but that's, you know --
JUDGE TINLEY: It's going to happen.
MR. ODOM: It's going to happen.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right.
MR. ODOM: But if we can minimize the danger of
some of this, and particularly the development in a floodway,
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we ought to do that.
MR. HEWITT: And all those things you just said
~~ have happened, and people think that they -- they're not
shown on the maps, so they have a false sense of security and
say, "I'm never going to get flooded, 'cause the boundary's
right here," but they forget that a lot of things have
changed in the last ten years.
I'~ MR. ODOM: Ten years. Let me tell you, 1847 -- I
had a place in Castroville, 1847, in the 500. It had a
100-year pin in it. In '02, it went 30 inches in the old
ranch house, went 30 inches in the front house. You couldn't
have told me that. That was in a 500-year flood. And the
high -- the little road in front of my house crested right
there and fell toward Highway 90. I thought I was cat's
meow. My neighbor went four and a half foot -- the neighbor
right next to me, down old Lorenzo to the river, went four
and a half foot in his house. That's what can happen.
MS. McMAHON: Could I ask a question? If people
were to build in the floodway, would the County be on the
hook for some of the cleanup as a result of it ever getting
flooded? It's strictly on the property owner?
MR. ODOM: It's on the property owners. And that's
my personal experience with Castroville on a different
property that I had, I didn't have the structures on. That
was my responsibility. Now, I could go and maybe get some
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grant money to clean up, but I never did ask them for
anything. I took care of it myself.
MS. McMAHON: I just wondered if it would be in the
interests of the County if there was any financial liability
for any cleanup.
MR. ODOM: No, ma'am.
MS. McMAHON: That's not relevant, then.
MR. ODOM: It doesn't say in that floodplain
ordinance. That's it. There might be a moral obligation if
the Court wanted to do that. That's a direction of the
Court.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we have a moral obligation to
do what we can based upon the knowledge that we have to
protect the citizens.
MR. ODOM: The way to do that is to allow -- stop
the development in the floodway. That's a moral -- that's
morally correct.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I can understand building
maybe in the floodplain, but the floodway makes no sense. I
mean, just -- you put yourself in danger, as well as others
that come after you're -- you're gone.
MS. HOFFER: Well, if your structure is in the
floodway and it pulls loose, and then it clogs up, we've got
drainage now; you've even got another problem on your hands.
Now we've plugged up drainage because of a structure that we
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allowed to be built in the floodway. So --
JUDGE TINLEY: That's a lot of what happened on the
Quinlan Creek situation. The debris that came down, with the
velocity of the -- of the water, that impeded the flow
getting into the river.
MR. ODOM: And it went up.
JUDGE TINLEY: It just backed it up.
MS. HOFFER: And you're going to have -- in the
floodway, you're going to have the cypress trees, the trees
that are going to get pulled out from the force of the water,
so that's a given. That's not going to go away. We're
always going to fight that. But then if you start putting
structures along with the cypress trees, and you get a
cypress tree, and now you get a structure that just came
loose, and now that's in the drainage. And, you know, I
mean, that water is just rising.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, that flood that came
down on that particular occasion, that was -- you might have
called that a 500-year flood. I have never seen that -- that
creek that high as long as I've lived here.
MR. ODOM: We11, you had some dams that broke, so
there's also mitigating --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Dams that broke. Had some --
MR. ODOM: There's mitigating circumstances, as
i such. But the -- the amount of water was horrendous. We had
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8 inches in 45 minutes. You had 5 inches in about 20 minutes
right up Harper Road at the county line. I had 8 inches on
Fisher out there.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm.
MR. ODOM: And I have never seen Johnson Creek that
high. I could not believe --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It was wild.
MR. ODOM: It was wild. I have never -- and I'm
!, limited in my time I've been here, but I've never seen that
', water that high.
II COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not on Johnson -- Johnson
Creek was that high, maybe a tad higher, in '78.
MR. ODOM: '78?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But that was the last time it
was that high. All you have to do is drive down Hoot Owl
Hollow to the bridge and get a real effect of how much debris
and how high that water was.
MR. ODOM: I want to say four here -- 4 inches, is
it, over a 24-hour period is -- is encroaching a 100-year
frequency?
MR. HEWITT: No, it's more like 8 or 10 inches in a
24-hour period.
MR. ODOM: Then it must be in a two-hour period or
something like that. I think it is -- maybe that's -- I've
got a deal up here. I can't remember. My brain doesn't
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function all the time.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But that same flood that I'm
talking about, Hoot Owl was the one that got in Jack Clarke's
hunter's cabin, and his family was in there, his daughter and
son-in-law and granddaughter. They had 3 feet of water
coming in that house, and that hasn't happened in years.
MR. ODOM: In years. So, that's right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They were -- they barely got
out.
MR. ODOM: Well, they told me in Castroville -- and
I'm sorry to beat the dog there, talking about 1880 and
possibly 1850 was the -- what they even think came along
there, and that -- and that was -- my house was 1847, one of
the first ones.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, the thing we have to
realize is that it's going to happen.
MR. ODOM: It's going to happen.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You're going to have those
rare occasions, but when it happens, it's serious.
MR. ODOM: That's right, yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's not something to joke
about, or to take lightly.
MR. ODOM: Take lightly.
JUDGE TINLEY: How do we project this forward?
These concerns, the factors that are all intertwined, that
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people need to not discount and merely look at the existing
map and say, "Well, I'm okay; I'm not within this shaded
area." And -- and we've got a continuing influx of
population and development and building, and -- and doing
away with -- with the forest cover, pouring concrete and
asphalt and all those things that occur to cause this thing
to change, and we don't see it changing because we're looking
at it on a piece of paper in a two-dimensional context here.
How do we project this forward to the citizens so that they
remain cognizant of what's going on and -- and what they can
do to protect themselves to be observant about what they need
to do to --
MR. ODOM: Protect themselves.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MR. ODOM: Well, I -- my opinion --
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. ODOM: I'll take my hat off as floodplain. I
think that it starts at educating either CFM's, a requirement
for engineers and surveyors. If I came to you for a design,
I think I would want -- 'cause they're going to have to come
to me to -- hopefully, they do; they don't always do. We
find out later. But to be able to educate, because a lot of
engineers don't. They go through it. They've been really
good. And I think real estate agents are a way to do it.
Technically, you can tell a man -- you can lead a man -- you
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can lead a horse to water; you can't make him drink. And
children, is education. The children have a bigger impact on
their parents, and being educated -- maybe the State would
get involved and have something there, but classes where
children are not scared, but informed about the dangers, and
that they go talk to their parents, and then that sort of
makes the light bulb come on.
My little son just telling me when he was little,
"Daddy, put on your seat belt," before I had a wreck, that
little voice said, "Daddy, put on your seat belt." You know
what I did? I automatically took it like that and I put it
on. Within 30 seconds, somebody wiped out my front end. But
I did it automatically, because I really actually heard my
son say, "Daddy, put on your seat belt." Well, I did. And
the same thing happens when your child comes; you start
thinking about it. Maybe you don't want to do it, and we
don't want to scare people, because we sort of know -- and
particularly involved in floodplain. But you want to --
education is coming in and talking to us, talking to your
engineer or your architect, get design in it, tell them
inherently the way to do it. The other way is, if they can't
build in the floodway, they're not going to do it. That's
the most dangerous part. That's the most dangerous part.
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They build in the floodplain, they still are in danger. Is
it 1 foot? Is it 2 foot or 3 foot? At least 1 foot when
Frank did that was a good thing, and staying right at B.F.E.,
1 foot was good. It was reasonable. I don't know if you
change it any higher or not. I don't know whether you have
an opinion there.
MR. HEWITT: Well, one thing I'd point out is, a
big chunk of the county doesn't have a floodplain delineated,
or a B.F.E.
MR. ODOM: That's true.
MR. HEWITT: There's a lot of the county that
doesn't -- I mean, you can look. It's got an approximate
zone where they guessed, "This is about the floodplain
limits," but there's been no --
MR. ODOM: No study.
MR. HEWITT: -- detailed study at all done. So,
there's a lot of the county that you're going to have to rely
on an engineer to do it right. And sometimes they're under
pressure just to minimize that floodplain so their client can
get right up on the river. So --
MR. ODOM: And -- that's right. And it makes it
quite difficult, because you're doing an estimate. Either
you're going off the U.S.G.S., or either you're doing that
flood curve, that panel, and it's only a guess.
MR. HEWITT: Yeah.
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MR. ODOM: I -- I'll say this. I did come to the
Court a couple years ago, if y'all remember, and I asked for
MR. HEWITT: Turner, Collie & Braden.
MR. ODOM: That's right. The ones that did that
to take -	- over	a period of years, to	start	to take areas
that were	going	to be developed, look	at the	west end, the
know your precincts and what -- what the plans are, where you
think it's going to be, and take so much money each year and
let them give me a detailed study, a detailed study of that
area. Then everybody would have something to go with, and it
would make it safer, is one way to do it. It's going to cost
money. And maybe we can get some grant money; I don't know.
Maybe we can get some mitigation money. But the -- at that
time, I guess the budget was tight. It's always been tight.
I didn't -- it was something to think about. We didn't get
it. That's one way to do it, methodically, over a period of
years, we study the area. We won't get all of it. I don't
think there's a need to go to some of the areas that are way
out there, but I think the areas that you designate as
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potentially development -- just pragmatic, that we should
study those areas. And maybe the others we don't have to
worry about right now, not in the near future. That's one
way.
JUDGE TINLEY: What -- and I realize this is just a
guesstimate off the top of your head. What -- how
significant is -- are there existing dwelling structures in
the floodplain in this county?
MR. ODOM: How many?
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, is it a big problem? Is it a
small problem?
MR. ODOM: I think the last --
JUDGE TINLEY: Whole bunch of it, or not very many?
Or --
MR. ODOM: Somewhere between 250, maybe, to
300-some had a permit for floodplain, was the last count we
had to turn in to FEMA, I think. We probably have that. So
those are the ones that we know have gone. That doesn't mean
necessarily what permits we have, 'cause I don't construe --
erosion control is not a development permit. So, development
permits are somewhere -- let's just say 200.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. ODOM: Maybe.
JUDGE TINLEY: That would include the floodway?
MR. ODOM: Anything. Anything in the floodplain,
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100-year frequency.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Of course, there's going to
be a smaller percentage of those that are actually in the
floodplain.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, it will be more in the
floodplain and less in the floodway.
~i
'~, MR. ODOM: Probably.
I
JUDGE TINLEY: You think so?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the floodway is -- is
the -- that's where it flows.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Plain is where it spills
I over.
JUDGE TINLEY: I understand.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So that's -- you have more
floodplain than you do floodway permits.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree.
MR. GARCIA: We deal -- in the Environmental, we
deal with, like, one to two a month.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Floodplain or floodway?
MR. GARCIA: Plain.
MR. ODOM: What do we do -- what do we do, two or
three a week, five a week, something like that? People
coming in and having an interest -- real estate agents trying
to sell something. Same question, same thing. That's the
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reason I think they need to be educated.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. But a small percentage of
those is going -- are going to be in the floodway.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: A small percentage.
MR. ODOM: A small percentage.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
JUDGE TINLEY: So, what I'm trying to do is just
get a handle on -- initially, it seems that even if you -- if
you're in the floodway, if you construct in such a manner
with all the required certifications, if you eliminate that,
politically, that's probably fairly easily doable.
MR. ODOM: I'd say that that's doable.
JUDGE TINLEY: If you get to the floodplain --
MR. HEWITT: You're going to get some people
screaming about that, 'cause they're going to say nobody --
there's only five in the whole state that are doing it. Why
do we have to be the sixth? There is going to be some
wealthy developers that aren't going to like that. Might not
be as easy as it seems.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'll get hit from the
mining interests as well.
MR. ODOM: Oh, yeah, you bet. Big time.
JUDGE TINLEY: But if you talk about floodplain,
you're -- you're going to get yourself a parade of hornets
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nests, aren't you?
MR. ODOM: I think if you go to the -- maybe go to
extremes. I would love to think that's the way. We would
eliminate the problem. But I --
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MR. ODOM: The biggest danger is -- is the
floodway, and it protects you from all development in there.
Maybe accessory building are a different thing, and you could
have that exception to that. In the floodplain, it allows a
person to build back -- how far do you build back from that
floodway? 30 feet? 100 feet? You control some of that,
too. You allow them to do it, but you push them away from
where that main force of that water is at. And they're going
to get backed up water, but not as bad. So, I -- that's
something to think about, that you can control it a little
bit there by that stance on that floodway.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't think there's a
problem with doing the floodway. I'd be willing to jump on
the -- you know, stand out on a limb on that one, but the
floodplain, no.
MR. ODOM: You know, that's going to the extreme,
and you don't have the preponderance of people. We're just
beginning. There was none, and the federal government wasn't
going to do anything. We used to talk to them about it; they
weren't going to do it. They wanted to leave it to the
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states; state's rights, supposedly. So, the congressman or
the senator didn't have to take the heat. Pass it down to
y'all. And yet they mitigated laws that you have to follow.
Typical.
JUDGE TINLEY: And we still get the heat.
MR. ODOM: Still get the heat.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with you, Bruce.
I'd go to bat for floodway, as opposed to floodplain.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, it's just -- you know,
in some areas, when you get more in the flat country, you're
getting -- you're just -- you're getting backwater, even at
the floodway, because you don't have the fall and you don't
have near the force of water.
MR. ODOM: Slows down.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If people want to do that,
you know, have water stains on the walls in their house, and
replace their furniture and carpets and walls and all that,
well, let them do it. But I think, you know, in this area is
just -- the water comes up too fast.
JUDGE TINLEY: And --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Moves too hard. And I don't
see how an engineer could really and truly guarantee a
no-rise in the floodway.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't either. It defies
logic.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's difficult to do that.
MR. HEWITT: Well, I could go in there and I -- if
you put a -- if you filled in the floodway, I dig out and
mitigate it, you'd have to dig out a compensating amount to
make that no-rise. That's how you get around it.
MR. ODOM: That's how you get around it.
MR. HEWITT: So you add here, but you take away
under the rest of your property.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, but still it's --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we're going to do this,
far as I'm concerned, it's more important -- it's important
to do it now, before we get into a situation from Center
Point eastward where development begins to take place. And
I'd rather have it in place than --
MR. ODOM: We have a chance.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- than to try to do it
after we get into that scenario.
MR. ODOM: Well, you can always change it. It's
y'all's law.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We make the rule and change
I the rule.
MR. ODOM: You can change the rule if you feel like
it is too aggressive. But I think aggressive and common
sense -- sometimes people don't use that, and for their own
protection, that's what the government is there for, because
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we know what the water will do. They don't. They see the
Guadalupe flowing beautifully.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As it passes. It's not a
danger to anybody.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let's see them stand by it
when it's in a full-fledged flood.
MR. ODOM: Go at night and try to figure out what's
going on. You hear that thing coming at you. You might have
a headlight, see that about to terrorize you, and say, "Oh,
Lord, I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time." And that's
us out there. Unless someone's in a place and you're caught,
and your car's parked underneath, and that river comes up
and, boom, car's gone, and you're sitting there praying that
it doesn't come down those poles -- your foundation holes.
So, it's scary at night. You don't see anything, you just
hear it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right.
MR. ODOM: So --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Makes a lot of racket.
MR. ODOM: Sounds like a locomotive. Didn't mean
to scare you. I just -- these are some things that we have,
and I think working with John, if y'all don't mind, we'll
make sure we get it. We have an opportunity to convey our
concerns, particularly with some of the these BFE's, and
identify these areas. And the people will have an
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opportunity -- once we identify it, they'll have an
opportunity. I really want it to be on them, not us. And
they're the ones getting paid federal money to do this, and
they should be able to identify it. And then we look at the
opportunity to get this corrected, and then we can change our
flood ordinance, and I'd certainly like to consider the
thoughts we've given today about the floodway.
MR. HEWITT: What the contractor has in mind on the
three-month comment period is typos and errors. Like, you
know, if you misspelled "Ingram," he wants you to submit that
to him. He doesn't want to go in there and change his
we know that there's an area that should be outside the
floodplain, they should change -- make the changes in that
three-month period. If you don't, the next process is you
have to submit what's called a letter of map amendment, and
that would go through Leonard on to FEMA, where you would get
a letter from FEMA saying that the surveyor approved that
you're outside the floodplain boundary based on survey
information, and so you don't have to get the insurance
requirement, even though you're shown on the map as being in
the floodplain. That's going to cost a homeowner $1,000 to
do that.
MR. ODOM: To do that. And, yeah, to us, there's
no -- it's just the MT-1 that I sign, and it goes forward
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from there. But not everybody needs to do that. Sometimes
the insurance man will -- is sufficient. I don't think
there's any rules. There's no consistency, from what I've
heard from people out there. Depends on your insurance. If
you show them an elevation certificate, and it says that
you're in the X, outside that, and that structure is in the X
area, you're not really worried about it; it's outside the
floodplain.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let me ask a question. Are
you eligible for the same FEMA flood insurance if you're
outside of these colored areas?
MR. ODOM: Yes.
MR. HEWITT: At a reduced rate.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But they can -- I mean,
there's no -- no problem with them going ahead and purchasing
that FEMA insurance -- floodplain insurance -- or flood
insurance, even though they're not within the --
MR. HEWITT: Right. It's real cheap for them.
MR. ODOM: Yeah. I have flood -- you know, my
elevation's over 2,000 on top of Scenic Hills. I got flood
insurance at my house. It's a --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What's the matter with you?
MR. ODOM: I know what water does. (Laughter.) I
know my insurance. I know that good U.S.A.A. --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm not going to buy it at my
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house.
', COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You've been reading Noah
and the ark lately?
MR. ODOM: I want to tell you --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You are paranoid, aren't you?
MR. ODOM: I know. Y'all got me paranoid. But I
-- if water comes in that house, your flood -- your household
insurance doesn't cover that.
~~ COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Unless it comes through your
I roof.
MR. ODOM: Well, I've had them deny that to me,
I too.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You need to change companies.
MR. ODOM: Well, I -- I guess so. U.S.A.A., I've
been with them since I was a young guy. So --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Better to be safe than sorry,
right, Leonard?
MR. ODOM: That's the way I feel. It only cost a
couple hundred dollars, and that was it. It's that -- it's
just security, that's a11.
MS. McMAHON: Does the water seep in? Is that what
you're worried about, if you're up on top of the hill?
MR. ODOM: Runoff from an 8-inch rain or 5-inch
rain all at one time. If water comes in the house, they're
not going to pay you.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If that happens, we'll all
be gone, and Leonard can start all over again.
MR. ODOM: Y'all -- I'll watch y'all -- everybody
down here flow by.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll be watching everybody
from where I am.
MR. ODOM: I will too.
MS. HOFFER: We'll all be loading on the ark.
MR. ODOM: No, it's not that I'm worried about the
elevation coming there. It's just the local runoff around
you that -- that flows into the house. And if they can
find -- excuse me, if they find an excuse to not try to pay
you .
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Seems to me that we need
to -- especially in these populated areas like Ingram, where
this has -- has actually been changed, those people need to
be made aware of it.
MR. HEWITT: Yeah, and it might be worth an effort
from Vicky or me or Kelly or somebody to draw on the existing
map what the new limits are going to look like.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right. I think it would be a
good idea. I'd like to be able to take that, or, you know,
have -- kind of call a little community meeting up there.
MR. ODOM: A community meeting.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And show the people that own
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property in there what this has been changed to, so they can
prepare to buy flood insurance.
MR. HEWITT: Yeah, 'cause you don't want to do it a
year from now, 'cause it's too late.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Now it's pennies on the
dollar, but later it will be a bunch.
MR. ODOM: Maybe we can get somebody from ML-5, the
flood insurance people, to have a representative here. We
can talk to T.C.E.Q. and find out who they recommend. But
they do make those talks. They might be able to come in
these community meetings, talk about the insurance and, you
know, different scenarios that -- that people might want to
know, but have a better understanding of what the cost is,
essentially, and ask any questions right there about -- about ~
this. Maybe T.C.E.Q., or --
MR. HEWITT: It's Water Development Board. And
they sent a guy out here the last time they came and spoke to
us; Manuel Razo, I think is his name. He offered to come
back and do that.
MR. ODOM: I think that's a good idea, is to talk
to people.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is this Nichols right here?
Nichols Creek, right by the Nichols Cemetery?
MR. ODOM: Must be.
MR. HEWITT: Yeah.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is that what that is? Okay,
I couldn't see it. I'm blind.
MR. HEWITT: See, that's an example where that's
just approximately where they think the floodplain is. It's
not --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That thing doesn't hardly
have any runoff. There's very little.
MR. ODOM: Sometimes --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I tell you, there's not much
runoff. Road and Bridge will tell you, it's basically a box
culvert. But up here is where I'm concerned about.
MR. ODOM: Oh, yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And I have seen it down at
Goat Creek, down where Goat Creek comes in there by what used
to be Patrick's Lodge. I remember when the bridge -- one
section of the bridge was washed out there in '78. It
undermined that thing and took half -- took one lane out of
that bridge on the downstream side. That was -- you know,
the water at that point was over Patrick's Lodge, the
building. So, that -- that is another -- but this really
concerns me here around Ingram, because that's all -- all of
this whole area is -- you know, has houses and businesses on
it.
MR. ODOM: Yeah. They need an opportunity to be
grandfathered to get that insurance. Then they can pass it
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along to whoever purchases that in the future, and as an
incentive, rather than $5,000, $6,000 or whatever that risk
is. That's what they're going to charge you.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay.
MR. ODOM: Katrina and Rita wiped out the reserves;
there are no reserves.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: John, we have maps for the
City of Kerrville east?
MR. HEWITT: Yeah, you have -- you nave Lnem aiL,
all the proposed maps.
MR. ODOM: We have the films. We have the computer
model that shows us, too.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They don't -- remember, Bill,
they didn't pass out any extra copies.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: FEMA's strapped for money.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think the only ones they
had were one for Kerr County and one for the city of
Kerrville, one for the city of Ingram.
MS. HOFFER: I had to make a bunch of copies and
burn a bunch of disks.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Did you?
MS. HOFFER: From what they gave. I think you. guys
have a copy of the preliminary map that Cheryl did for me,
and then the disk. They sent one disk, so I copied the disk
and gave John the disk so he could make a copy of it and have
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the preliminary films on his computer.
JUDGE TINLEY: What else do we need to go over,
John?
MR. HEWITT: That's it. Just -- it's important
that in that six-month period, you adopt a new floodplain
ordinance and you address all these issues between July and
-- and December of next year.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I think -- I think what's
ahead of us at this point is -- is an educational process
more than anything else.
MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Ponder some of things that we
have talked about.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, and this time we can
get some feedback, too, from the community, what -- you know,
by telling them we're thinking about possibly changing and
eliminating any construction in the floodway, and watch and
see how that --
JUDGE TINLEY: See the backlash.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: How big their clubs are and
how hard they hit us, or whether they go along with it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are we going to have a
presentation in Commissioners Court?
MR. HEWITT: It's y'all's -- do you think it's
worthwhile?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it would be
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worthwhile if we publicized it so we can do what you're
talking about, giving a wider -- wider notification.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: In certain areas, we really
~,
need to have some little public community meetings.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: To -- you know, to just
inform the residents so they don't get caught paying a whole
lot, or -- you know, where they could buy some cheap
insurance now, and later, if they decide they want it, it's
going to cost them a fortune. And if they forget to do it
once we've told them, it's their fault. But if we don't tell
them, I think we're in the wrong.
JUDGE TINLEY: As to those areas.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We need to know those areas,
or we'll be inundated, and then I say I don't know.
JUDGE TINLEY: Overlays.
MR. ODOM: You're going to get a call saying, "That
idiot down there doing your floodplain doesn't know crap."
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've had some of those
calls. (Laughter.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Need to do some overlays of areas
that are going to be affected, and target those areas for
educational --
MR. ODOM: That's right.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- meetings, and -- and just do the
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best you can to inform people about it. That's going to be
the core group you start with; those are the most affected.
MR. ODOM: That's the most affected. Those are the
ones that are affected. Those are the ones that concern me,
that have an opportunity to be able to financially afford it
now, and to be able to pass along that investment under a
grandfather clause. Otherwise, Katy bar the door, 'cause
this is --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Becomes unaffordable.
MR. ODOM: And we're -- about another seven years
-- as I was telling the Judge, there was an executive order
signed; it started decreasing 10 percent a year, up to ten
years, and it'll be at zero percent as far as funding or
subsidizing for FEMA insurance. So, Bush signed this thing,
and it's going down, and people don't know about it. But
eventually it's going to end up where you're sitting, and the
risk is what you're going to pay. It's not going to be
subsidized any more. That's a way they were saving
10 percent on their money.
JUDGE TINLEY: How long is it going to take us to
have the -- the -- either the overlays or -- or this
information interpolated and noted on the maps where we need
to be able to --
MR. ODOM: I don't know.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- able to know where the affected

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areas are?
MR. ODOM: I was going to ask John if he could --
that contact, whoever it was, maybe find out if we can
identify those areas generally. They're bound to have where
that change is.
MR. HEWITT: I don't think so. In their minds,
there are no changes.
MR. ODOM: I know, that's what they told me. And I
', guess maybe we have to -- John and I take a look at it, I
guess. That's the only way I can see. I just wanted y'all
to know, because that -- that wording they used is not
correct. I mean --
MR. HEWITT: Right.
MR. ODOM: It is not correct, and people are going
to be shocked when they find out.
JUDGE TINLEY: Be more shocked when they don't
think they're in the floodplain, and --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And their house gets washed
~ way.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- and house gets underwater.
MR. ODOM: I was told they were to identify it.
When they met at the city and I listened to it, part of the
question -- they said that they would identify it, is what
they -- my memory of asking, 'cause I asked that question. I
was concerned, how much lead time did I have? And they told
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me I had six months to -- to identify it. I said, "How do
you do that?" They said, "Well, we'll identify those areas."
That was implied to me. And they should be the ones --
they've changed it; they ought to be able to identify it.
But I -- that -- that doesn't mean a whole lot.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Good luck.
MR. HEWITT: You're talking about two hours per
map, I would think, to plot out a new map and draw the
overlay and compare them, and I don't know how many maps you
have in the county. I mean, if you want to do every map,
that might be 40 maps? So --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've got to leave. See
~ you, gentlemen.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: See you, Bill.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you.
(Commissioner Williams left the workshop.)
JUDGE TINLEY: The areas where we've got the most
development and -- and population, I would think we'd want to
target first. This area of Johnson Creek coming in there in
Ingram, obviously, that's a priority one. There are going to
be some other areas, maybe Goat Creek, Town Creek, Quinlan
Creek, where there's been a lot of development that's
occurred. Those are going to be the areas where it's going
to change anyway, because those are where the factors have
come into play and have combined to create the change.
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MR. ODOM: Well, the City --
MR. HEWITT: The City's --
MR. ODOM: The City's going to get Quinlan. And
they should be looking at their ETJ, but I don't know if
that's -- they should be looking at their -- at least 2 miles
out. I know 1 mile, but they ought to be looking at 2 miles
out of their ETJ as far as flood. But I can't say what
they're doing, but Quinlan ought to fall under their -- most
of their jurisdiction coming into the city right there. Town
Creek, you know, will probably end up being that all the way
from Avery's right there, should be steady all the way down
through Town Creek. We'll lose that road. We'll lose Old
Harper Road. Be more than happy to give it to them, and --
but that'll come under their jurisdiction. Ingram is -- old
Ingram doesn't have much, but, you know, whatever they have.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
MR. ODOM: They need to go and look at the half
I mile out.
JUDGE TINLEY: Who's your counterpart over at the
City you deal with on that?
MR. ODOM: Bobby Gore, and normally the City
Engineer. If I really have something, Bobby will normally
have to go to the City Engineer.
JUDGE TINLEY: Probably be a good idea to -- if
nothing more, just to let them know what the direction we're
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moving here, and y'all kind of figure out --
MR. ODOM: It would be nice if we had the same
rules.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Well --
MR. ODOM: I mean, they're going to have certain
things.
JUDGE TINLEY: But, you know, if there are some
areas that -- that are mostly within the city and the ETJ, if
there's a small bit that's outside, where we don't have to
mess with the small pieces of that, and just like if it's
mostly within ours, but something that feeds into -- and we
got city of Ingram involved, but their resources are very
limited out there, so we're going to have to carry the ball
on that.
MR. ODOM: I'll talk to them.
JUDGE TINLEY: Just so the right hand knows what
the left's doing, so that we've got this thing on somewhat of
a unified basis, I would think.
MR. ODOM: I have talked to them about Town Creek,
because there's areas there that they're saying they don't
want to do, around Higgins.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MR. ODOM: Going back the other side, and yet
they're going to take a certain area, and they're going to
leave Higgins. Probably doesn't want to go in the city
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limits.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I can assure you.
JUDGE TINLEY: I'll bet on that.
MR. ODOM: I can bet on that, yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't want them on their
property, either.
MR. ODOM: That's right. And so, you know, when
you do that, then you've got this area of Town Creek, is what
I told Bobby Gore and I told the engineer. I said, you know,
this is not right. I will try to work with them. They said,
well, you're right. And I said, well, you know, I can't even
get -- it's your jurisdiction on the roads now. This is your
sewer and water line; this is your road, and you take
everything else up here. You don't mind taking Mr. Avery and
them. But, I said, and here is Higgins left over here. It
doesn't mean that the man has to do it, but you ought to be
taking -- don't sit here, because what you do up here is
going to affect Higgins. And I said, your rules are a little
bit different, a little higher frequency than what mine are.
So, I said, here you are leaving a man, and yet you want me
to walk in and say this is right here; I got to do this? To
come on your roads? And yet you're doing everything else
over here and here and up here, but you don't want this. I
said, sounds like Roy Street to me. Or Peterson --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Exactly what it is.
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MR. ODOM: I said, you know, because the man
doesn't want on city -- doesn't have it, I said, eventually
he will.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He ain't going to live
forever, just like the rest of us.
MR. ODOM: That's right. Those kids are going to
sell it.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It would be worth a whole lot
more if it had sewer on it.
JUDGE TINLEY: I get along great with Ed.
MR. ODOM: Huh?
JUDGE TINLEY: I get along great with Ed.
MR. ODOM: That's just a hard-headed marine; that's
all there is to it.
JUDGE TINLEY: He's an Aggie, a marine.
MR. ODOM: Might have some effect on what he
thinks.
MR. HEWITT: Judge, did you want me to make a
presentation, then, at the next -- am I on the agenda?
MS. GRINSTEAD: I was planning on putting you on
the agenda.
MR. ODOM: I think that would be good. Maybe we
can find out if you can -- maybe -- maybe they have
something. I would appreciate if you would contact that
individual that was here, and can they help us identify those
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areas to look at? Even if we have to study it, and I'll see
what I can do. I will get with the City and see if I can.
But I -- to get them to do something, Judge, is quite --
JUDGE TINLEY: I understand that. I understand
that.
MR. ODOM: They may agree with me in principle, but
actuality of doing is two different things sometimes. So --
JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the scheduling of this thing,
we may want to see whether we've got all the logistics in
place before we schedule that presentation.
MR. ODOM: I wouldn't want to scare anybody, and
get us --
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that's -- we need to have our
facts gathered and -- and complete to the degree that that's
possible. Number two, I think we probably need to have an
opportunity to get some sort of publicity out there that this
presentation's going to be -- who asked that it be on the
agenda, Jody? Do you recall?
MS. GRINSTEAD: No, it wasn't necessarily asked.
We talked about it after the last FEMA meeting.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. GRINSTEAD: Because Mr. Hewitt had been through
it before. And the main thing that came up was the whole
grandfathering in of the insurance.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
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MS. GRINSTEAD: If they got it before, they could
save thousands of dollars, so that's why we thought -- it was
just kind of after the FEMA meeting.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, that's what that
timeline is.
MS. GRINSTEAD: Exactly.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So we can -- we've got,
basically, to adopt this thing in July? Is that what I
heard?
MR. HEWITT: Yeah, that's right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, we have some time.
Probably shouldn't schedule it before February or --
JUDGE TINLEY: First of March.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- first of March.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah. Give us an opportunity
to get the fact gathered, get the overlays made, or -- or the
lines drawn or whatever is necessary to -- for the visual,
and then get some publicity to hopefully get some sort of
notice.
MR. ODOM: Are you -- you feel positive of no
development in a floodway, right?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right now I do, unless I get
completely beat up around the ears.
MR. ODOM: What is your feelings on that, Judge?
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JUDGE TINLEY: I don't have a particular problem
with it. You know, I'm going to rely more on these
Commissioners, because they --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They represent --
JUDGE TINLEY: -- they're dealing --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We're the ones that's going
to be on the front lines.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's right. They're dealing
I!, eyeball-to-eyeball with these folks, and they're the
', first-line response, and I want to be supportive of them.
~~
~I MR. ODOM: Is this a good idea? I'm sorry. Is
this -- this -- my concern is, is this a good idea, do you
think, in your opinion?
', MR. HEWITT: Yeah. I -- what I would suggest is,
there's going to be a spring T.F.M.A. meeting, and you and me
talk to Roy Sedwick directly and get -- find out what other
counties are doing it, what their experience has been.
MR. ODOM: Right.
MR. HEWITT: Especially --
MR. ODOM: Backlash, if they had any on that.
MR. HEWITT: It's different from us up in the
panhandle. We've got flash floods down here. It's a
different animal here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Different topography totally, and
different -- different circumstances when that water gets
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crazy. Okay. Anything else? Okay, let's go ahead and wind
this thing up. We'll be adjourned. Thank you.
(Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 11:18 a.m.)
STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 20th day of January,
I 2009.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
BY . _ ~4tC~ _ _ _
Kathy B ik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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