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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Workshop
Wednesday, July 22, 2009
1:30 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
Subdivision Rules/Regulations in the ETJ
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A."BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4
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On Wednesday, July 22, 2009, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop of
the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville,
Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come to order, if we
might, for a Kerr County Commissioners Court workshop
I, scheduled and posted for this date and time, Wednesday, July
ICI
I~ the 22nd, 2009, at 1:30 p.m. It is that time now. The
~ agenda item is to participate in a workshop concerning
Subdivision Rules and Regulations in the ETJ, and I'm going
to drop this one in your lap, Commissioner Letz.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. Let me first kind
of figure out if -- what I'd hopefully like to try to
accomplish today is, I think everyone received a -- on the
Court, anyway, received a copy of a draft agreement and a map
that accompanied that agreement for the ETJ subdivision issue
that's been around for some time. I talked with the City
Manager yesterday, and they're -- as I understand it, they're
making some revisions to the contract, so we really don't
need to, I think, spend a whole lot of time on the contract
side of it. I think we're pretty much in agreement. I mean,
where we're going, looks like, is dividing the jurisdiction
in the ETJ, where it'll be city jurisdiction under city
rules, and county jurisdiction under county rules. And there
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may be a few little give and take between our rules and their
rules along the way, but not real significant.
The issue that I talked with the City Manager about
a little bit yesterday was the -- in either existing
subdivisions or new subdivisions that are in areas of city
jurisdiction, the issue of rural standards, what they're
going to be. And I think the answer in a nutshell from the
City Manager was he wasn't sure where they were going with
rural standards. And what I told him was, I said, you know,
I think that that's a very important issue, but at this
point, I don't think it should slow down where we're going in
the process. I said, I hope you -- and I think we were
putting it in the agreement that we think there should be a
rural standard for any lots that are over 5 acres in size,
and that we would like to have in the agreement probably that
we would be consulted before those standards are adopted by
the City, and he thought that was a proper way; he thought
that we should be at the table from a discussion standpoint
on these rural standards.
But, you know, I think it's just -- we just need to
get -- get on down the road right now. And, you know, we can
talk with the City, and the City can do what it wants down
the road on their rural standards. I've got two new maps,
and I don't really know the best way to look at this. I
think it's probably going to be necessary -- I really wasn't
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expecting as big a crowd like we have, but for us to maybe
spread a couple maps out on the table in front of Kathy and
work off of those. Can we do that, Judge?
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's try that. I think it's
going to be easier, rather than trying to pass a map around.
If y'all just go down here, we can look -- you can leave your
maps up here. I've got that map and some other maps. Those
that want to look can look over our shoulders.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So this could be an aerobics
I class.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That means y'all need to come
I down here.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see, okay. All right.
JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have to?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's helpful.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I love that yellow.
JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to see?
MS. GRINSTEAD: I'm fine.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is the map we got from the
City. The yellow colors are the -- would be the county
jurisdiction areas. Or this is -- the green's the ETJ line,
the city limits line, and the other color would be the city
jurisdiction. I had a new map put together, put topography
I
I and existing subdivisions on it, which are, to me, really
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critical as to who handles what, and then I just colored it
yellow best I could do by hand, the same areas. And I think
it shows the areas that I have a -- I think some changes need
to be made, both on the county jurisdiction side and the city
jurisdiction side. On the -- probably start over by the
airport and go around a little bit, this area here. This is
Creekwood and this is Twin Springs. The -- under the City's
map, it was left that that would be under their jurisdiction.
That really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The reason
is, Creekwood has a 25-acre minimum lot size under their
H.O.A. They can't change that. I think it takes 80 percent
vote to do it. That ain't going to happen any time in the
near future. May happen in 50 years. But -- and if there is
some development, to me, the area that would be, it would be
along here, some farm road, likely.
I'd like to draw the line somewhere here, maybe
1,000 foot off the city limits line, maybe-2,000 feet, some
line that comes across, like, here and gives most of
Creekwood to the county jurisdiction. And then have in the
-- in the rules that if any subdivision comes in that crosses
internally our arbitrary lines that we're drawing, City would
have jurisdiction. That way, if someone were, you know, to
expand or something, but I think, to me, 1,000 foot along
here would make sense, basically along Peterson Farm -- or
1,000 feet out from the city limit line. The same -- you
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know, I -- really, Twin Springs, you know, I kind of think
the same way there. I don't see the reason for that being
city jurisdiction. There's a little piece right here between
Twin Springs and what the -- the City had as county
jurisdiction. I don't know why that was left out. The way I
looked at it, there's a little piece, really, basically in
between those two drawings; it's a hill between two canyons,
and I don't know -- to me, you would smooth that out so that
the county jurisdiction line would kind of come like this and
go up along the subdivision line, and then kind of back over
to here, so the County would pull a little more on that
I outside area.
Over in this area, no question at all till you get
to Highway 16. There's an area -- the only area that's not
in a platted subdivision right north of 16 within the ETJ is
this area right here, and the City had that as coming into
our jurisdiction. To me, that doesn't make sense. That
should probably be city jurisdiction. That's going to be
a -- likely, some kind of commercial or higher density
development, if I was to guess what's going to go out there,
and that land's actually being cleared right now, some of
that. I would think that this line should be the City's
jurisdiction, at least the part certainly next to Highway 16,
'cause I can see that as being a higher density, more
urban-type development.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would be the west side
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of 16?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, the west side of 16. This
existing subdivision, which are older lots, what's it called?
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Scenic Hills.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Scenic Hills. And all that
area up in here, I don't see -- to me, I see that more as
rural. To me, that makes more sense to be -- certainly, the
outer part of that, to be county jurisdiction. All that's
going to happen out there is occasionally some replats. Some
of those are -- you know, there might be a couple 100-acre
tracts; I doubt there's many that big.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Not very much.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Most of them are probably 15,
20 acres, 5 acres, in that area. This area through here,
this is Harper Road, James Avery area. Clearly, that should
be city jurisdiction. Out through here is all -- I think
that's kind of where the Andy Phillips -- some of his newer
projects are.
MR. COLEMAN: That's correct.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That should be city
jurisdiction. That's already being developed. And, really,
all the way over around here, I don't -- I think that's
pretty urban, likely, development. There's a few larger
tracts in the area of Goat Creek Cutoff and Goat Creek Road
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a development of some sort, so that's kind of all urban all
the way -- to me, all the way around over to the south side
of the river. Just for reference, this is Saddlewood right
here. And I really think, to me, the area out towards the
ETJ is more county type rural developments. I don't see it's
ever going to make a high density along that area. Along the
river, all the way back to Kerrville South, to me, that is a
logical way for the City -- so, to me, this line would kind
of come out to here, maybe, you know, something like that.
This is Kerrville South. I -- I wonder a little
bit in Kerrville South if it wouldn't make more sense for the
City to take some jurisdiction right at the city limit line.
You know, based on kind of looking at roads a little bit, I
think there can be some adjustments there. I know the City
does, I think unanimously, not want Kerrville South in that
jurisdiction. But, you know, I think if you're going to get
some commercial development and things like that, it would
make sense to me right along the city limit line and highway
lines. Coming out Highway 16 south, this area here, to me is
pretty rural. But, you know, it's not a -- I don't have a
real high, you know, strong issue one way or the other. To
me, I'd probably extend the county, like, from this
subdivision here kind of back over to the strip out there.
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know, this.
I think that one -- well, on this one back here,
it's backed up almost all through existing platted
subdivisions; there's very little unplatted land back there,
and I think that a lot of the -- I think the criteria that
we've been talking about with the City has been in existing
subdivisions, one of the criteria that the County would
maintain jurisdiction. The things that would negate that
would be the City's long-term water plan, annexation plans,
and things of that nature, and that would kind of trump being
in an existing subdivision. I don't see this as falling in
that category. As a matter of fact, I don't think any of the
areas that I've seen fall in this category. This area over
here is Turtle Creek Road, back up kind of near Comanche
Trace. I think this makes sense, by the terrain and also the
development in that area, that that would also be city
jurisdiction. And then back over here on the south side of
the river, Quail Valley and -- what's the other one over
there? Quail Springs, Quail -- whatever it's called, a
couple of subdivisions there would be in our jurisdiction.
MR. ODOM: The Woods, you're talking about?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: The Woods is on this side.
This is --
25 ~ COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Homestead and The Woods.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Actually, this is all county
jurisdiction. I didn't color that yellow. Trying to give it
back to you, Kevin.
MR. BROWNING: From where?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is all -- this whole
section is county jurisdiction, south side of the river.
MR. BROWNING: All this?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right here. This little piece
right here is, this piece right here. And, actually, under
your plan -- I just didn't draw it right -- the south side of
the river, all of this is county jurisdiction.
MR. BROWNING: And this right here?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, right there. And I
wouldn't -- basically, this whole area over here, I wouldn't
make any changes. I like the way it was drawn. So, that's
kind of the -- I talked to Todd; I said, you know, we have
some -- at least I had some revisions I think would make
sense, that were consistent with the criteria that the City
was using and we were using, to discuss. And, I didn't know
if there were some things that I missed, and which possibly
-- 'cause I don't have a couple of things that the City has
on their maps, such as I have no idea what the annexation
plan would be, and also what the water projections are
projected to be. So if the Court's in kind of agreement with
that, my recommendation would be that I'll color in more
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jon, how hard is it to -- I
mean, you and I can sit here and define all those areas, I
think, but how hard is it going to be to really define the
boundaries?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to come up with
something like either a distance from the ETJ line in, or
from the city limits out, so that it's clearly -- you know,
you can plot it, GPS or otherwise, and say you're on this
line or you're not on that line. If it crosses that line,
like I said earlier, I think it should go to city
jurisdiction.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that how do you it?
MR. COLEMAN: At some point, we talked -- and
Jonathan is talking about a 1,000 foot kind of barrier
specifically, like --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. COLEMAN: Well, a number of places here and up
in there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or 2,000.
MR. COLEMAN: The City's got kind of a standing
rule that if the plat's within 2,000 feet of existing
service, then you need to tie into the City's existing
service, or be waived out of that.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, --
MR. COLEMAN: So, that would be kind of a common --
I~ COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- 2,000 would make sense,
then. That makes sense.
MR. COLEMAN: And then again, I think that's going
to be more determined -- and an advantage to that would be,
we don't -- we don't have to renegotiate the line. The City
has a line in the ground, and if it's 2,000 feet from that
line in the ground, kind of -- you know, that solves some of
that issue along here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. COLEMAN: Probably solves a good bit of that up
I on Kerrville hills, or --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Are you talking about sewer
line?
MR. COLEMAN: Water.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Utility.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, then, that would solve
the problem on those substandard size lots on Goat Creek
Cutoff that were approved, and they're too small for septic.
MR. COLEMAN: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So they need to be able to
hook in, because they're about 2,000 feet from the existing
line.
25 ~ MR. COLEMAN: They are -- and correct me if I'm
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wrong; the Goat Creek, the little commercial piece out there?
AUDIENCE: Uh-huh.
MR. COLEMAN: We had that discussion. They are
2,000 feet as the crow flies, but 2,000 feet -- to actually
get there, they're past that, you know, following the logical
trail for the drain lines. And so --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which are we going to have,
as the crow flies or --
MR. COLEMAN: Our rule is as the crow flies, and
so -- you know, but again, they got a variance out from
underneath that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who owns the damn cross?
That's what I want to know.
MR. COLEMAN: All the way down to Mooney, right?
That's why that jumped out in my mind.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2,000 feet here.
MR. COLEMAN: 2,000 foot, which is about a half a
mile, more or less.
MR. ODOM: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But not much less.
MR. COLEMAN: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it needs to be a -- I
I
mean, I think, as much as possible, we need to follow either
a footage from the city limits line or existing subdivision,
something that's definable, so that there's not a question as
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to whose property it is. Existing subdivisions or footage
from the city limits, to me, would make the most sense. I
think you try to follow -- or a road. It just has to be --
you know, we just don't want to draw a line across someone's
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, and too, Ray just told
me a while ago that, you know, this subdivision that came in
that's on Goat Creek Cutoff, another one of Andy Phillips'
deals, well, that L.C.R.A. line is coming down through there,
and that is going to substantially change those lots that we
kind of gave them a go-ahead on, because that's going to
encumber a bunch of property on those lots, and they're going
to be too small. They're going to have to reconfigure that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: In order to be able to use
them for legitimate lots and get septic, 'cause septic cannot
go within that right-of-way.
MR. ODOM: Isn't Wren Road part of y'ap's master
plan too, all the area back in there? Isn't that part of the
City's master plan?
MR. COLEMAN: It is, yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's all in the city
jurisdiction.
MR. ODOM: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, this -- everything
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pretty much from Highway 16 to the west is all city
jurisdiction, and only -- only area that would be different
is along Bear Creek and that area down here. Everything
north of the river -- kind of north of the river and west of
16, that's all city jurisdiction area, primarily.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Then they need to provide
service in there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: One step at a time.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. I just thought I'd get
my lick in early.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No harm in trying.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, anyway, that's kind of --
you know, after I spent some time looking at it, how I would
redraw it, I just wanted to get it mainly before the Court.
And if the Court's in agreement, I'll redraw that, bring it
to -- it'll be on our agenda to approve on Monday.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then it goes back to the
City for them to whack on some more?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hopefully to approve it, at
least approve the map.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Goes back to the City for
approval?
MR. COLEMAN: I know we have an item on our Tuesday
agenda for discussion, and then -- right? There's some sort
of joint meeting two weeks from today?
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 29th.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 29th.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Hopefully, it may be
able to be resolved. If y'all just don't accept it, I think
there's going to be a little bit of give and take on the
actual language in a few areas, 'cause we haven't heard from
Rex yet on -- I know that the City, either staff or council,
one, has changes to the draft with the City, and that's --
once council signs off on that, Todd Parton said he would
forward a copy over for us to have on Monday.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kevin, the joint meeting is
a week from today.
MR. COLEMAN: A week from today, yes. Okay.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just whatever we can do, I
hope that -- that the City will not approve too small of lots
in the future in the ETJ.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And I think some of
those areas, we're -- those are also things that would need
to be in the agreement as to the process, and it's in the
agreement, actually, the process of any plat that we receive
or they receive in the ETJ in their respective jurisdictions,
you know, they have to go to Road and Bridge or their
Planning Department, Environmental Health.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Environmental Health is --
is, you know, pretty critical, because if they don't have a
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big enough lot, they can't get septic; they can't really have
a house.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. So they were trying to
make that a little bit clearer.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. I think that's the --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're -- I mean, we're,
in my mind, you know, 90 percent there, finally. And I think
this is going to work. It's -- it's not just arbitrarily
doing things; it's looking at a combination of subdivisions,
terrain, city services, the best criteria that we have
available to us, and trying to make a decision. And as Kevin
I
frequently says at meetings, this is only a five-year deal,
probably.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jon, put your finger back on
that Fredericksburg Road issue out there. Right there, that
thing right there. I don't know if that's some rancher
clearing his land or what -- exactly what's going on, but
something is going on.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right in there.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's Dunks.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it's right past
Dunks. You may be right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's John Dunks.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, you may be right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's -- you know, it's a big
piece of property.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, Dunks is -- what, he
has about 1,100 or 1,200 acres in there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: About what it looks like. But
it just seems to me, I see -- I was kind of surprised the
City didn't have it on their map, just because that's one of
the few large unplatted areas on the north side of Kerrville,
and it seems that that was -- is a likely -- will get platted
at some point. And it may be a year, may be --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: After Dunks is dead and gone,
I can tell you that.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: May be up to 20, how long it
is. That's an area that will be developed, I would say.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, probably someday. I
don't think it will be any time soon.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like it, Commissioner.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think you did a good job on
it.
25 ~ COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Now, if we can --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's see if we can make it
~ happen.
MR. ODOM: If it's in their jurisdiction, then they
take care of floodplain?
MR. COLEMAN: Yes.
MR. ODOM: If it's in this area, they take care of
it. If it's in that color right there, I take care of it,
right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll have to change the
agreement to do that, but that could be done. I mean, I
would -- and that's really a Mike Hayes question, whether the
City has jurisdiction. I would think, through interlocal
agreement, they would.
MR. ODOM: Let's say they don't -- if they don't
plat, it's still in their jurisdiction, so they should take
care of it, right?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I don't know.
MR. ODOM: Those are the questions, outside the
platting process.
AUDIENCE: I don't think we can.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not sure we can.
MR. ODOM: I think the law says they can.
AUDIENCE: I don't think we can, Leonard. I think
that's the way our agreement is.
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MR. ODOM: That's a different thing, I know. Let's
don't leave it hanging there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll address who has
subdivision -- who has --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Somebody does need to take
care of floodplain.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. ODOM: Platting's not a question, but if they
don't plat, then --
MR. COLEMAN: Outside of platting, right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: It may be a question if they do
plat. If it's in the city jurisdiction, we need to make sure
that they have authority to do floodplain.
MR. COLEMAN: And -- yeah. More accurately, we
exercise our authority so that the eventual builder can
I accommodate --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right.
MR. COLEMAN: -- your floodplain permit, you know.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to address the
floodplain no matter what happens between the city limits and
the ETJ line. All right.
MR. ODOM: Okay.
MR. COLEMAN: Commissioner, you're going to
consider your map a little bit more and get us a copy of it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, we'll --
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MR. COLEMAN: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- get it to you probably --
probably Monday, after we vote on it.
MR. COLEMAN: Okay. You guys are seeing -- I got
enough in my notes. You and I are going to leave. Is there
any question on the ETJ, the write-up part, the agreement
itself?
', COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was, in my mind, pretty
simple. I just think that there were a few things that we
just need to address. And it was pretty much what -- the way
it was written, what's good for the goose is good for the
gander, so I think we just have to look at it and get it to
legal to look at those changes and a few other...
MR. COLEMAN: One thing, if you would, just so that
everybody here knows -- you know, it's been talked about in
smaller meetings, but maybe not with the whole group -- is
that that five-year window, that five-year agreement, that's
really purposeful, 'cause that's kind of our projection of
the timeline that the city of Kerrville kind of mounts the
threshold of 25,000 people, which would put it to a 2-mile
ETJ, so we'd be opening it up at that point anyway. That's
kind of the concept behind --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But hopefully the agreement
could still stand behind this.
25 ~ MR. COLEMAN: Right, but we have to deal with that
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specific issue.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: There needs to be a provision
that the maps can be, you know, modified without changing the
whole agreement.
MR. COLEMAN: Right, annexations made or -- very
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right on time, 2 o'clock.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on -- on the
ETJ matter?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, sir, not from me.
JUDGE TINLEY: If not, we will adjourn that
particular meeting.
(The ETJ workshop was adjourned at 2 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 23rd day of July, 2009.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
BY: ''~__,,./
------- 1~~ta~ ----------
Kathy B ik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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