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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Workshop
Monday, June 22, 2009
1:30 p.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
Kerr County Personnel Policy Handbook
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A."BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4

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On Monday, June 29, 2009, at 1:30 p.m., a workshop of
the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the
Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me call to order this Kerr
County Commissioners Court workshop scheduled for this date
and time, Monday, June 22nd, 2009, at 1:30 p.m. It's a bit
past that time now. The agenda item calls for participation
in a workshop for the purpose of completing review of the
Kerr County Personnel Policy handbook sections. Ms. Hyde?
MS. HYDE: There's five.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-oh. Look where it's --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Really? She might have
turned that upside down.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Somebody else did it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Had somebody else do it.
MS. HYDE: Five of those.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wow. Is that progress or
what?
MS. HYDE: No, I didn't do them.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wait a minute, I've got all
this. Did you redo this, other than what I have here? I've
already got a copy of this.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You don't need this.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I have a copy of this.
JUDGE TINLEY: I got that one too, I think. You
got one? He's got one. Everybody's got one of these, don't
they?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the latest missile
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
~ MS. HYDE: What we tried to do when we had our
meeting -- what we tried to do when we had our meeting last
week is go through that second section that was left that we
hadn't really discussed or talked about, and the biggest
discussions revolved around sick pay. And so what we did, I
think that Commissioner Baldwin had asked several months ago
to give -- like, what is the updates? And when I tried to
give y'all the updates, it ended up being beaucoup pages,
because we were still in the initial stages. So, we kind of
went through the sections the way that it shows in the
e-mail. We started out with vacation, which is Section 4.02.
There's one, Judge.
JUDGE TINLEY: I've got one, yeah.
MS. HYDE: You're looking in the hard copy policy
I book?
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Page 33.
MS. HYDE: 32, 33, somewhere around there. Depends
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make sure that the employees could bank the 160 hours. But
i the way that the terminology was written, for example, Eva
Hyde has 160 hours September 30th. October 1, Eva Hyde can't
earn anything because she's capped out at 160 hours. And
what we want to do is allow the employee not to be penalized,
'cause they should be able to earn as long as we have the
proper terminology and wording that the next September 30th,
anything over 160, you've used it or you lost it. So that
their cap is still 160, but they can earn. That way, if they
take vacation, like at Christmas -- say they're going to take
40 hours at Christmastime. They still have their bank of 160
plus what they've earned.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or they take away from the
160.
MS. HYDE: Or they take away from it, but they
still have the ability to earn.
JUDGE TINLEY: As I recall, we had a provision in
the old, old policy that said at the beginning of each fiscal
year, anything in excess of 160 hours was eliminated,
dropped.
MS. HYDE: It was supposed to be.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I understand. I'm just
telling you what the policy said. And I think that's
where -- exactly where you're going, isn't it? Aren't we
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doing it on a fiscal year basis?
MS. HYDE: We're making sure that people understand
that, because what happened, as y'all are well aware, the 160
rules about capping didn't exactly make it everywhere. Some
places it was 160, some places it wasn't 160. So, we're
making sure everybody understands it's 160, but October 1,
you can still earn.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure.
MS. HYDE: But if you don't use it, you lose it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can earn, so you may go up
to 200, but at the end of the year, you still got to go back
to 160.
MS. HYDE: 'Cause September 30th, we're whacking
it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got to distinguish between
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or accumulated. Accrual
', never stops as long as they're an employee.
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But they get to a cap --
~ they get to the ceiling, and we're not crediting their
account any more, until used below that 160 benchmark --
ceiling. Is that the language you're proposing?
MS. HYDE: No, sir. I think --
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JUDGE TINLEY: No. Actually, what --
MS. HYDE: We're trying to say they can continue to
earn during the year, but September 30th, the ceiling or the
cap, whatever terminology we use, is 160. Anything over 160
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
MS. HYDE: And then you start over October 1st.
You can have your 160 and you can start earning again, but if
you don't use it, 160 is all we're going to carry on the
books.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we're saying
same thing.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's exactly what I understood the
very old one to say. At the beginning of each fiscal year,
all you could carry forward was 160. Anything in excess of
that was dropped.
MS. HYDE: Because we hadn't been following it.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the fact that it wasn't
followed is another issue, but I think the policy was very
clear.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then the second year,
that it's still 160.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not 320.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, never gets to 320.
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or 161.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like the policy. That's
what I'm hearing her say that she's doing today, only I hear
her saying that not everybody heard it the other time.
MS. HYDE: Right. I don't think they understood it
the other time.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Well, that's --
JUDGE TINLEY: That's your job, to make sure they
understand it, though. They may have understood it, but it
wasn't being followed, so they didn't want to understand it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the truth right
there.
MS. HYDE: So, there we go. There's --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can -- I'm just looking at some
of the X's on here. Employees can still -- they don't have
to use a full day; they can still use part days?
MS. HYDE: Vacation time? Half a day, four hours.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Use all day or half a day?
(Ms. Hyde nodded.)
JUDGE TINLEY: No more one hour here, one hour
there?
25 ~ MS. HYDE: Because what ended up happening was
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people -- unfortunately, it's very tough to manage that, and
so people would say, "I'm not going to take my lunch." Well,
if you look around here, none of us tend to miss many meals.
(Laughter.) So, we're eating somewhere.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can we quote you?
MS. HYDE: Sure. She is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. And that's -- that's
I written in here?
MS. HYDE: I'll make sure. I'm putting a note in
here to make sure there's clarification, four-hour
increments. Any other questions on the vacation?
MR. BARYON: I misunderstood. What about the
four-hour increments?
MS. HYDE: Need to take vacation in four-hour
increments.
MR. BARYON: Can't take less than four hours of
I vacation time?
JUDGE TINLEY: That's right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Like if you're going to the
doctor. If you have a doctor's appointment at 2 o'clock, you
take the afternoon off.
JUDGE TINLEY: Probably not a good example, Jon.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can also go fishing
after the doctor's appointment.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, you're going to your --
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your child's dance recital in the afternoon. You take the
afternoon off; you don't take an hour off.
MR. BARYON: Okay. I don't understand the --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The bookkeeping is
I horrendous.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Trying to keep track of
hourly -- a person taking an hour and 30 minutes here and an
hour here.
MR. BARYON: Okay. I can see taking even numbers
and not do half hours, but I just didn't -- if someone needs
to take off at 4 o'clock to go to a football game, are you
saying that they need to take off at lunch so they can go to
the football game?
JUDGE TINLEY: That's it.
I vacation.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They take a half a day
MR. BARYON: Okay.
MS. HYDE: You guys have got enough comp time that
you don't need to worry about it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're off in their own world
anyway.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That may encourage a lot of
migraine headaches at 4 o'clock.
MS. HYDE: Let's don't encourage migraines.
MR. BARYON: You have an extra three hours of work
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hour there, rather than the whole half day.
MR. BARYON: I'd rather get the three hours of work
out of somebody if they have to have an hour off.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You don't have to do the
accounting on it either.
MS. PIEPER: Yeah, I approve the accounting of it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The payroll.
MS. PIEPER: Oh. Well, no, I approve the
MS. HYDE: The payroll and the GASB portion,
because that's part of this. Part of the reason why we're
trying to get -- Jeannie just walked in. I'm hoping she's
going to, like, help me here. On the accounting portion of
GASB for vacation and sick time is a liability. That's an
accounting nightmare, keeping up with 15 minutes, 10 minutes,
5 minutes.
JUDGE TINLEY: One hour, as opposed --
MR. BARYON: I think it ought to be at least in
hour increments.
MS. HARGIS: What are we talking about?
MS. HYDE: We're talking about four hours for
vacation. You need --
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JUDGE TINLEY: Half day or full day of vacation.
MS. PIEPER: If one of your employees wants to --
has a doctor's appointment at 4 o'clock, make them take the
whole afternoon off, and that 4 o'clock doctor's appointment,
rather than leaving at 3:45 or whatever --
MS. HYDE: That should be sick pay, number one.
MS. PIEPER: Well, for --
MS. HYDE: In honesty, it should be sick pay.
MS. PIEPER: Well, for your daughter's dance
recital.
MS. HARGIS: Mine quit dancing a long time ago, but
okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or if you have to run to pick
up your kids at school. There's lots of things that could
come up. We just need to make it clear as to what we're
doing. Doesn't make any difference to me, as long as we keep
track of it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the whole issue.
MS. HARGIS: It's an accounting problem to them. I
mean, as far as GASB is concerned, we can pick it up, but --
but Eva's got to keep track of quarter hours and stuff like
that. I mean, it should be at least whole hours. And -- and
as far as the four, you know, it's up to them, because
they -- they have to track it. I mean, the payroll program
is complicated in itself.
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MS. HYDE: And also, the same thing I said the
other day; we just need to make a decision. I don't care.
As long as it's not in minutes.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we didn't have sick time,
we wouldn't be talking about this. If we didn't have
vacation time, we wouldn't be talking about this.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hour increments.
MS. WHITT: What if the day care or school calls
and says, "Your kid missed the bus"?
MS. LAVENDER: Why would you lose four hours of
time on --
MS. WHITT: You won't know that your kid's going to
miss the bus -- your child's going to miss the bus until -- I
mean, there's --
MR. TROLINGER: Well, I can see this, because we've
~, removed the failure to give 14-day notice. We've removed the
I~ 14-day notice requirements of vacation, and now we're just
adding a stipulation if you want to take vacation time, it's
for half a day. Seems reasonable.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we got rid of the issue of
personal day, too. It's all the same now. So, I mean, it's
all vacation, really. And there are lots of incidents -- I
mean, I think it needs to be, to me, an hour. I have a hard
time seeing how anyone can do anything in this town in an
hour. I mean, it's going to take -- you know, but, you know,
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an hour's fine. I don't care. Doesn't make any difference,
but --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is two hours the compromise?
MS. HYDE: Two hours is a compromise.
JUDGE TINLEY: Tell us about from your standpoint.
You have to do the initial number crunch on it. Number one,
you want whole hours at a minimum.
MS. HYDE: Please.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay
adequate for you?
One-hour increments, is that
MS. HYDE: That will be adequate for us. I'm easy.
As long as it's whole.
MR. BARYON: I just would hate to lose -- make
somebody go home when I can get two hours worth of work out
of them because they need to leave an hour early. That just
doesn't -- doesn't make sense that we're going to run our
people off early when we can get some work out of them.
MS. HYDE: Your people don't get run off anyhow.
Your people have got plenty of comp time before they ever get
vacation time.
MR. BARYON: Not all the --
MS. ROBISON: Not all of his people have plenty of
comp time.
MR. BARYON: I've got admin staff, also.
MS. WILLIAMS: I say use full hour increments. If
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somebody has to leave at 4:15, they use one hour of vacation
time, even though they're going to be gone 45 minutes.
MR. BARYON: I agree.
JUDGE TINLEY: If they leave at 3:30, they use two
I hours .
MS. WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: You can live with one hour?
(Ms. Hyde nodded.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that has the most flexibility,
I would think.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody on the Court have a problem
I with that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HYDE: One-hour increments for vacation.
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
MS. HYDE: Anything else?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's fine.
MS. HYDE: And help on the wording. Rags and
Commissioner Williams said that they would help us with that
to make sure that we've got the wording correct on it so that
everybody can understand it and it's clear. Sick pay. The
bottom line is, keep it the same. They earn 8, 10, or 12
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hours, depending upon their normal assigned work shift hours,
and they get to earn 12 a year.
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, let's talk about the 8, 10, or
12 hours, depending upon their normal assigned --
MS. HYDE: We have people in the courthouse that
work Monday through Friday, 8 hours a day. We have shift
workers that work 12-hour shifts, and we have shift workers
that work 10-hour shifts, so their ability to earn should be
based upon the hours worked.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So, their total -- their
total number of hours worked is going to be the same, I
expect, whether they work an 8-hour, 10-hour, or 12-hour
shift, right?
MS. HYDE: Pretty close. Pretty close.
JUDGE TINLEY: So why should one earn more hours
per month than another if the total number of work hours is
the same? That doesn't make sense.
MS. HYDE: Because their work hours aren't the
same. And you guys are going to have to help me, 'cause this
came from --
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's talk about somebody
that has a 12-hour shift.
MS. HYDE: Okay. When they take sick time --
JUDGE TINLEY: Working two and a half -- excuse me,
three and a third days a week, it will average out then.
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You're going to give them -- they're already on the short
MS. HYDE: Right.
JUDGE TINLEY: But they're only working 40 hours a
week, and you're going to give that individual 8, 10, 12
hours a month, and an individual who works a 40-hour week
working an 8-hour shift 8 hours a month. It's not equitable.
MR. BARYON: I agree with Judge Tinley. That's
oversight on my part.
MS. HYDE: Okay. So I can reduce it back to the 8
hours, where it's a total of 96 hours for any employee.
Whew. He's carrying a gun behind me. That's kind of --
MR. BARYON: I'm not --
MS. WILLIAMS: Not armed.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's unarmed.
Understand, this is Clay. This
MR. BARYON: I'm going to tap you on the shoulder
before I jump on you. How's that?
MS. HYDE: So, if you would just -- just mark out
the 10 or 12 hours, that makes it a whole lot more bueno.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now, with no limit on
carry-over.
MS. HYDE: Right.
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why?
MS. HYDE: Well, because the carry-over language
was that if there was a 240 carry-over, that was your max,
and anything over the 240 was going to be a payout. And
there was a lot of discussion on that, and the end -- the end
discussion was, leave it as-is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you -- if -- when you stop
employment for whatever reason with the County, do you get
paid your sick leave?
MS. HYDE: No, you do not.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: As long as you don't get paid,
that's okay.
MS. HYDE: No, you do not.
JUDGE TINLEY: But if you don't use it and you're a
faithful, punctual employee for 15 years, and you suddenly
get hit with a big-time situation, you've got a bunch
accrued.
MS. HYDE: We also want to put in there, this is
another one that needs some -- some solid language on,
because we need to make sure that employees understand what
is sick pay. It's a benefit. It's not you earn it, and then
you get to take it off to go to your daughter's dance
recital. Sick is supposed to be for sick. And we have some
folks that don't use it that way, which is unfortunate,
because when they do have a serious medical condition and
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they need time and they need money, because none of us are
working for free, they don't have it. And then we get into
discussions about doing banks and loaning and all this other
stuff, and that -- that is a -- that is a nightmare. So, we
need to help make sure the employees understand. And we want
the language in there so that if elected officials and
department heads can kind of work with us on that, because if
you have someone that -- like, Eva Hyde comes in October 1;
she earns 8 hours, and October 15th she takes a sick day.
November 1 she earns 8 hours, and November 14th she takes a
sick day. Once you hit two or three months, it's kind of
apparent Eva Hyde's going to get a sick day and, by George,
she's taking it. That's still an absentee problem. And I
think that, like, Jannett and Linda -- and I don't see Linda
down here, or hear her. But, you know, we all talked about
it where, you know, sometimes people don't realize it. So,
they've asked that H.R. help them so that if we see the
trend, we just say, "Hey, did you know you've got so-and-so
that's doing this?"
JUDGE TINLEY: You've got some language in here
that's very specific about what it can be taken for, and the
enforcement action about abuse of that policy can be the
grounds for disciplinary action, up to and including
involuntary separation. And that needs to be there.
MS. HYDE: We're going to leave in the section that
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said in the old policy book that department heads, elected
officials can ask at any time for doctor's excuses. We don't
have to wait. I mean, if we want to, we can ask for them day
one, if we feel like someone has a problem. Because then,
you know, you're hitting their pocketbook, and it might help
them to understand that sick is for sick. The other
discussion was about who is part of the family in -- living
within the household, that Rags and --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That was a long discussion.
MS. HYDE: -- Commissioner -- it was. And he and
Commissioner Williams said that they would help us with that
terminology and language as well. We want to leave the
language so that it matches FMLA, so that we're under the
federal guidelines and we stay legal. But at the same time,
we want to make sure that everyone understands it's --
they're living within their household. We shouldn't be
taking our sick days to take care of someone --
AUDIENCE: Grandmother.
MS. HYDE: -- that lives in Houston.
MS. WHITT: Grandmother.
MS. HYDE: Unless you take time off, like vacation
time to go down there and take care of a sick parent or
something like	that,	or you take	FMLA.
MS.	PIEPER:	Should we	also put the increments in
25 I this one?
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MS. HYDE: If you guys would like to, we can put
the increments in this one as well.
JUDGE TINLEY: I'd say no less than one hour on
that one too, one-hour increments. One-hour increments.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because of time we live in
and parents that -- some of the people might need a ride to
the hospital. You know, the child has to go. Actually, we
don't need to include the parents, 'cause they wouldn't be
living -- unless they're living in the same household, the
way it's written, if I'm correct.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One hour is in there
already.
JUDGE TINLEY: It is.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: There -- on the sick leave,
what if there's a -- someone accumulates, you know, 150 days
sick leave?
MS. HYDE: Okay.
MS. HARGIS: We have some.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is not unreasonable.
That's 15 years of service.
MS. HYDE: Right, we have a lot.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Say you have 150 days, and that
person has some condition and does -- uses up all their other
available medical leave. Do we have to keep that job open
for them?
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MS. HYDE: Okay. Let me try to take what you
said --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: FMLA.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, beyond FMLA. 150 sick
days; they've been gone for six months.
MS. HYDE: You don't have to leave -- by law, you
only have to hold the job or a job of similar value for the
12-week period, unless it's military, and then it's 26 weeks.
However, comma, if it's a long-term employee -- and we talked
about this, because you guys have so many, and we used an
employee that we had, and this went on for a couple of years.
Do 7 get rid of a great employee cause they're sick?
Probably not. Are you going to leave the job open? That's
going to be a decision for either the Court or for the
elected officials. Can they -- can they do it?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- you know, I don't
mean to look at it cold, but I look at it pretty much from a
budget standpoint. I mean, if you -- on these long leaves
outside FMLA type, we can't function with -- or maybe the
department -- it's up to the department heads, that you know
you're going to have to function with -- down a person.
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because we don't have the funds
budgeted to allow you to hire a part-time worker or a
replacement and continue to pay another person's salary.
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MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, as long as the
understanding is that, you know, during these long absences,
that the department heads are going to be down an employee,
they're going to have to just make do.
MS. HYDE: Unless they've already got it in their
~ budget.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Shouldn't have it in the
~ budget. Hopefully we don't have any floating people in the
~ budget.
JUDGE TINLEY: The only time -- the only time that
you're really left open on keeping a specific position or a
like position of similar stature, grade, wage, and so forth,
is veterans' employment, if somebody is -- goes onto active
duty that's an employee. Then if they show up three and a
half years later --
MS. HYDE: Got to take them.
JUDGE TINLEY: As long as they make that
application within -- I believe it's 90 days now.
MS. HYDE: Right, it's 90 days. They lowered it,
Judge. ERISA -- and we're going over that with the two
departments that have those folks, because you -- that is --
you have to. Whether you like it or not, we have to. So --
I don't mean you. I mean --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I heard that.
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MS. HYDE: You know what I mean. It's the federal
law.
MS. HARGIS: Jon, you're kind of getting into where
GASB is coming in. If we --
MS. HYDE: I didn't mean it that way.
MS. HARGIS: So far they haven't made us take sick
leave for more than one year, but if they start having us to
accumulate sick leave, then we're going to actually have to
show that as a liability. That's where that comes in --
situation will come into being. Right now, they said one
year on the sick leave is all we have to do. Vacation, we
have to do whatever they have on the books, so we're carrying
about 354,000 right now as a liability. And if we really put
it all on, I think -- help me with this one. Wasn't it
I around --
MS. HYDE: Almost a million.
MS. HARGIS: Yeah, it was a lot.
JUDGE TINLEY: Question, Ms. Hargis. If -- on our
sick leave issue, if we were to place in the policy -- I
realize that if we adopt a policy, we can change it; we can
modify it. But if we were to put a specific disclaimer
relative to sick leave that we reserve the right to place a
cap on the number of hours, that's not going to help us?
MS. HARGIS: No.
25 ~ JUDGE TINLEY: It's going to shove it down our
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MS. HARGIS: The liability is there. If the person
has accrued 150 hours, I mean, in 15 years worth of time,
it's on the books, and you're going to have to -- but, again,
so far they haven't made -- made us do that yet. So, we just
cross that bridge when we get to it. At that point we may
have to cap it.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think I was probably thinking
about it more in terms of putting employees on notice that
this ain't set in concrete. And --
MS. HYDE: We've been doing that, Judge. We've
been making sure that when we talked to the employees,
whether it's down the road a piece or here in the
courthouse -- and I think Jannett and Linda and Diane will
tell you, I make it -- I've made it very clear in the
pre-work communication meetings that this is a work in
progress. We've gone over the sick leave policy, the current
sick leave in the green book, and how people have been
misusing it. And, unfortunately, because of the misuse, it's
brought it to everyone's attention. And whether it's the
80/20 concept or not, that -- that 20 percent that have
misused it are causing big problems for the other 80.
JUDGE TINLEY: You may get into an issue if you get
in a contentious matter involving, later on, capping, and
it's real easy to say, well, back when this employee came on,
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or at some point in time when you were having some sort of
H.R. discussion with this employee that, you know, made it a
contentious matter, we advised, you know, this -- this is
subject to change. Whereas, if you have it specifically
spelled out as part of the policy that we reserve the right
at any time to cap the number --
MS. HYDE: Okay.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- of sick leave hours, we don't
hear that argument. But that it's there; they've signed on
the line, they got it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with the Judge, 'cause
I think, especially with what's going on in Washington right
now, who knows what is going to be mandated? We do a -- a
sick leave and vacation and health and all that stuff. So,
you know, a big liability we need to be aware of, and protect
our --
JUDGE TINLEY: I wouldn't be a bit surprised if
they -- within the next two to three years, the GASB
reporting didn't require that to be accumulated as a
liability, and we want to be in a position to -- to not be
left out swinging in the breeze.
MS. HARGIS: That's exactly why, even in the FASB
world, which is the financial side, they've stopped doing it,
because they have the same requirement. They've stopped
giving a lot of these benefits that they give one year's
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vacation, they give one year's sick, and that's it. And
there's no -- you don't accrue or anything. So that they
don't -- because the big companies -- for instance, you know,
Amoco I know, 'cause Harry worked for Amoco; they're one of
the first ones to start capping, and that was back in the
early '90's. So, I think the bigger companies have seen this
coming down the road and on their financial statements. Now
the governments are now being hit by it, and so it -- like
you said, we showed a loss on the GASB side, and no loss on
the fund side, so I think you kind of saw it when the auditor
made the presentation. So, we don't want that loss on the
GASB side any worse than we have to make it.
JUDGE TINLEY: We actually were 800-something to
the clear, and we ended up 175 below the line because of that
one issue.
MS. HARGIS: That and depreciation.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm going to play the devil
in this deal.
MS. HYDE: Can I ask a question before you're a
devil? Can I ask a question before you're a devil?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Go ahead.
MS. HYDE: In the box in the -- on Page 35, we were
supposed to put in a box where it says sick leave benefits.
It's the one right before 4.05, Social Security, and we
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wanted to move that to the very front of this policy. So, it
tells what these are for. And what I'm -- what I'm hearing
you say, Judge, is put in -- in that box, "Kerr County may
change or modify this policy at any time."
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Reserves the right to.
MS. HARGIS: Reserves the right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think put it in the second
I box .
MS. HYDE: Put it in the second box?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. This one's talking about
"immediate family" definitions. I think you put it in its
own box.
JUDGE TINLEY: When you're talking about the
accrual of hours, and --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What box?
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
JUDGE TINLEY: The thing I want specifically in
there is to cap.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: She wants to add this.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think it probably needs to be in
there where it talks about how it accrues, or immediately
following that. You know, you accrue 8 hours per month, for
example, and if you spell out that there is -- there is no
limit to the number of hours that may be accrued over the
course of an employee's employment, immediately following
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that, that Commissioners Court expressly reserves the right
to modify or change the number of hours which may be
accumulated. Yeah?
MR. BARYON: It just seems to me, Judge, that the
only people that we have an issue on this particular topic
are going to be your long-term employees who do not use sick
leave.
JUDGE TINLEY: Essentially, that's correct.
MR. BARYON: The people who are abusing sick leave
are going to continue to; it's not going to affect them.
It's not going to stop their problem. But your long-term
employees who come to work faithfully year after year, and
just because they don't utilize sick leave, I think any time
it becomes capped, it's going to force people to take sick
leave. But if they -- I think -- I look at it as a deal
where I realize that if I get ill, I have FMLA, and that FMLA
keeps my position open for a certain period of time. The
sick leave is what keeps me in a paycheck during that time
that I'm ill. And I just -- I'm not sure about the
accounting part of it, the GASB issue, and so it may be way
over my head. What I've talked to Eva about is that,
basically, I just want to make sure that our long-term
employees who faithfully come to work month after month, year
after year, and don't take sick leave, which makes them
accumulate sick leave, if they were to get ill, they would
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have that time set there so they could continue to draw a
paycheck while they're trying to recover from the illness to
come back and continue to be a faithful employee.
JUDGE TINLEY: I would hope that that is the case.
And you're exactly right, that's who it's going to apply to.
And hopefully, if we got some that are abusing, we will weed
those out, and all we will have are longtime faithful
employees that accrue a lot of sick leave because they are
good employees.
MR. BARYON: But -- but I believe --
JUDGE TINLEY: I merely want to put this language
in if we get to the point, from an economic standpoint, that
we've got to protect hours.
MR. BARYON: I understand, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: I'm looking at it only for that
reason. I'm not trying to penalize the employees that have
been with us for years and that really have a need, when --
when that happens.
MR. BARYON: That's fine, and I understand -- like
I said, I understand the economic issue. But --
JUDGE TINLEY: That's the only reason I want it in
I there.
'~ MR. BARYON: That's fine.
JUDGE TINLEY: As a notice provision from a legal
standpoint, the argument's going to be made, "Well, nobody
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ever told me that." If you got it right in front of you in
writing and they sign off on it, yeah, they did tell you.
They capped it later; that's my only reason for putting it
there.
MS. HYDE: But at this point, we're not even
talking a cap; we're just researching the right to.
MR. BARYON: I understand that, Judge. And the
only down side I can see to it is that if they're -- in the
middle of my illness, after I've accumulated all this time,
the Commissioners Court decides to activate the cap, I may be
in midstream.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can't go for all the
what-if's. There's also --
MR. BARYON: Sure.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- a more likely "what-if" that
the government's going to mandate that during FMLA, we got to
pay full salary.
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: In which case --
MR. BARYON: That's true.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's why I want -- why I'm
concerned about this being a liability, adding that on top of
it.
MR. BARYON: That's why I told you I'm wasn't
familiar with the economic standpoint of it. I'm just
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looking at the --
JUDGE TINLEY: I'm looking at the legal and the
accounting and economic issue solely. I'm not trying to
penalize anybody. The long-term employee is the one that you
want to take care of.
MR. BARYON: And I --
JUDGE TINLEY: The one that hasn't taken sick
leave.
MR. BARYON: -- certainly have no problem with
adding the language as long as we're going to continue to
accumulate.
JUDGE TINLEY: But your point's well made.
MR. BARYON: Thank you.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's who we're trying to protect.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, here comes the devil in
the deal.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, the devil.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Now, there are a lot of small
companies that -- that their employees get nothing. I think
that's why we're probably going to be seeing coming down the
pike the FMLA mandate to pay people when they're sick.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's why it started.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But it really -- what this
really does is, by accumulating one heck of a liability that
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we're taking on for all those -- just like you said, you
know, some of these offices can't operate a person short.
Some only have one, and so we're going to have to do
something to cover that in the meantime. But you let this
stuff keep carrying over and building up, the liability just
gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and that's why a lot of
companies don't do it. And others that do do it, some of
them -- of course, banks are probably one of the sorriest
places to work in the world, but they're notorious for doing
this. They'll let you build up six days or so a year, but if
you don't use them, they're gone, and the liability's gone.
They don't -- you just -- you can't accumulate them, and that
is -- this is -- you know, that's when you eliminate your
liability. Now, I realize that County employees are not the
highest paid people, and this is one heck of a benefit to
them to be able to accrue this over their work time with the
County. But it is -- and we have to recognize that it is one
heck of a liability. It's gotten bigger.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's going to get bigger.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And going to get worse. And
like -- like Jon was just saying, I don't know if anybody
heard him, but if FMLA is mandated on us, that we're going to
pay it, and then we're going to pay that -- this on top of
that.
25 ~ MS. HYDE: Yeah.
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COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, maybe we need to
look seriously at --
JUDGE TINLEY: Capping it now?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- either if you're sick, you
need it, you take it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, if that happens --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But do you know what? You're
blessed if you're well and can go to work, get paid. This
way they're really getting paid twice. It's really a bonus
in the end, because you're saving up time for the future.
You've already been paid for your time at work. I'm playing
the devil here; not saying I'm for this.
JUDGE TINLEY: You make good points.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm pointing it out.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is a good point.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You get paid again because
you didn't get sick back then, but you're sick now. So, that
keeps your pay constant and coming in. I understand that is
one fine benefit for people that get sick and can't work.
That's huge.
JUDGE TINLEY: You're suggesting that we ought to
think about capping it, much like the vacation time?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm thinking that, you know,
we need to seriously consider what we're doing here by
allowing this stuff to continue to build and build and build
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from now on.
MR. BARYON: If we add language, 'cause we need to
add some language, I believe, that specifics -- or that upon
leaving employment, you do not get paid for any accrued sick
leave.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's definite.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's definite.
MR. BARYON: I'm not sure if we have that in there,
because at that point it's not a liability. You're not going
to have to pay these people for any accrued sick leave. I
mean, that's just -- similar to vacation.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That would cut some of the
liability for sure.
MR. BARYON: But this is just -- I'm just looking
at it as a -- to keep long-term employees faithfully coming
to work and not claiming sick leave.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Now, I don't disagree with
you, but I also -- at the same time, I have to -- have to
point out the economic impact of it.
MR. BARYON: Well, if they aren't allowed to get
paid for it other than when they're taking it, does that
lessen the economic impact that you're -- you're talking
I about?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, if they show up for
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work, they're getting paid for what they're doing. If they
get sick, they're getting paid while they're sick. You can't
help -- you know, a person can't help whether they get sick
or not.
MR. BARYON: Well, and we discussed this.
Apparently -- I was really surprised to find out the
difference between -- Eva, how did you quote that? The
difference in sick leave from within the courthouse to the
offices located outside the courthouse.
MS. HYDE: It's huge. I mean, that's the
information that I had given y'all that got this really
started. I mean, the difference when you look at the 5.0.,
Juvenile Detention Facility, and Road and Bridge, it's like
night and day. It's 80/20, that 80 percent of them have got
close to 1,000 hours, and 20 percent of them, then you go all
the way back down to 40 or 60 hours. But the flip side is --
is here in our courthouse, and it's 80 percent have less than
100 hours on the books, and you've got less than 20 percent
that have got anything out there.
MR. BARYON: But in defense of some of the ladies
here at the courthouse, you know, if a day care calls and
says, "Your child's got a runny nose or got a fever; come get
him" --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's always reasons for
Some of them are good reasons, some of them
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aren't.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Abusers don't have good
reasons. Your points are valid. I'd rather see us wait
until -- if there's a change in that FMLA, and the likelihood
is pretty good there will be, then we need to adjust this.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We'll have to. We can't
afford to do both.
MR. BARYON: We're going to address some language
now that they will never be compensated upon leaving
I, employment?
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that needs to be in there. I
think there's unanimous agreement on that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You know, there's a lot of
even pretty good-sized businesses that you can only accrue
six days a year. If you don't use those days by the end of
the year, they're gone.
JUDGE TINLEY: And you start over.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You start over.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A lot of small companies do
it that way.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah, a lot. They can't
afford to do it any other way.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because of liability.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, I mean, that's just
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pointing out the other side. I'm not saying that's what I'm
for.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I have to leave at -- before
2:30, because I have to meet TexDOT up on bridge projects.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you going to take care
of the porta-potties on your way out?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They're taken care of.
(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. What else you got, Ms. Eva?
MS. HYDE: Workers comp, 4.07. The only thing that
we changed on the workers comp is that the "timely manner" in
the second to last sentence in the second paragraph now needs
to say "24 hours" in parentheses. There was no change. Any
questions on the workers comp?
JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think that's a big issue, is
it?
MS. HYDE: No, it's not been a big issue the last
two years.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MS. HYDE: 4.08 on the County health plan. It said
"retirees 65" twice in that section, and it should have been
"retirees 60," because they can retire with medical benefits
at age 60.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What page, 37 or 38?
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MS. HYDE: I show Page 38.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I see it, yeah. Sixty or
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Explain that to me, Eva.
Tell me what this all means.
MS. HYDE: What it means is we have the rule of 75,
so it's age plus years of service equals 75.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Right.
MS. HYDE: Or eight years vesting and you're age
60, or 30 years any age, but you don't get medical until you
hit age 60.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Don't get medical till you
hit age 65 from -- from Medicare.
MS. HYDE: Sixty.
MR. BARYON: The rule of 75.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: On Medicare?
MS. HYDE: No, on us. If we retire.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah.
MS. HYDE: I'll use the Sheriff. He gets 30 years
in, but he's only going to be 50 -- 50. So, he has to work
another ten years if he wants the medical, or he has to pay
the full cost of medical insurance if he wants to stay on our
medical insurance.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay, I'm with you. I just
thought it had something to do with going on Medicare.
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MS. HYDE: No. No, sir.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's --
MS. HYDE: Nothing to do with Medicare.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay.
MS. HYDE: On holidays, we discussed this at
length. We've discussed it multiple times in Section 4.2,
and everyone agreed -- now, they might change their mind
today, but they had all agreed that if you have a holiday,
you get paid for that holiday. So --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, no, surely not. I'm
kidding.
MS. HYDE: So, the --
JUDGE TINLEY: If you work, you get paid twice.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's right.
MS. HYDE: Well, if you got to work it, you still
get the holiday pay, but we need to plan it. We need to
budget it and we need to pay it.
MR. BARYON: Correct.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, do you -- when you talk
about budgeting it, you put in an extra day's pay for
everybody in the system?
~ COMMISSIONER OEHLER: No, sir. You put in, for
example -- and I'll use the 5.0., 'cause that's what we're
talking mainly about, 5.0. and jail.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All about the S.O.
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MS. HYDE: So --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Always.
MS. HYDE: -- what has happened in the past is,
because they did not get paid and it wasn't budgeted, they
got a day off, so now you have what they call "comp time" of
straight time that was banked. So, before someone ever took
sick time or vacation time, they could take their holiday
bank first, and that's been kind of carried over. So, we
need to pay it as -- a holiday as part of their pay. So, you
figure about half of the staff works on a holiday, and you
can budget it that way.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I see.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Everybody else is off;
they're getting paid straight time. If you work a holiday,
you're going to get paid double.
MS. HYDE: And it's not to penalize the 5.0. or the
jail; it's just to get it off the books, 'cause that is a
nightmare. And when we do GASB, there is nothing for special
comp time pay, so that's why that was in there.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Either that, or get two days
of comp time.
MS. HARGIS: She doesn't like that.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Straight time or two days of
MS. HYDE: It's whatever y'all want to do.
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JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if they're working on a
holiday, they need to get paid for the holiday like everybody
else that's not working, and if they're working that day,
they need to be paid for working.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's exactly right.
That's the whole issue right there.
JUDGE TINLEY: Otherwise, if you give them comp
time, they got -- they got one and a half. So, you're going
to pay two and a half instead of two.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Anything else is denial of
the holiday.
MS. HYDE: And if we carry it just like any other
liability, every time they get an increase, that cost goes
I up•
JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm.
MS. HYDE: So, it just needs to be budgeted so it
can be paid.
JUDGE TINLEY: Sure.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It's only fair.
MR. BARYON: So, we will just budget for it? Is
that what we got?
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Mm-hmm.
MR. BARYON: Thank you.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Going to be a big increase in
the budget. Need to cut some to cover it.
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MS. HYDE: Oh.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In respect to that, what
about hazardous pay for us during the budget process?
(Laughter.)
MS. HYDE: I got us hazard duty pay, Bubba.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hazardous duty pay.
MS. HYDE: We're going to have Kevlar from here to
here this year. I'm not doing that like I did last year.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Chicken wire.
MS. HYDE: We need bulletproof glass.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But beer bottles -- it will
stop beer bottles. That's what I'm interested in, 'cause
this crowd out here --
MS. HYDE: They're rough.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wild.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Might bring a tiger in.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The tiger.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bring the tiger tamer, too.
MS. HYDE: When we do the holiday pay, it will be
shown on the paychecks. We did it this year, but I don't
think anyone's really noticed, but it shows the holiday pay
as a separate pay line. They still get their 86.67 if they
worked the full, but it shows holiday as eight. Bereavement
leave. I don't think that people understood -- let me
rephrase -- rewind. I think that there was a
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misunderstanding on bereavement pay, that you got three days
off. And this is going to sound really cold-hearted, and I
don't mean it to be, and if I offend anyone, I don't mean to,
but if you have six people that die in your family this year,
we're only paying for three days. That's the policy. That's
what it's been for -- since 1992 for bereavement pay. But we
have folks that have lots of deaths in their families,
unfortunately.
JUDGE TINLEY: Did you start to say grandmothers?
MS. HYDE: I wasn't going to -- I'm trying -- I'm
already skirting that edge. But we have people that have
been paid, like, 12 and 13 days.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many days does grandma
need?
MS. HYDE: I don't know.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll probably sound more
cold-hearted than you, but is it common to have bereavement
pay?
MS. HYDE: We used to call it funeral pay, and you
gave them three days for -- for one funeral a year if it was
immediate family. And that falls back under the FMLA;
mother, father, sister, brother, kids. But we kind of have
been paying --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Aunts and uncles and all
that.
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MS. HYDE: -- for family. And sometimes it might
be kind of extended family, like if Buster died, I'd take
bereavement, 'cause he's, like, my fifth, sixth cousin.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You promised you wouldn't
MS. HYDE: Don't tell anybody it's the truth. It
was just a joke.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
(Commissioner Oehler left the meeting.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I'm not sure
that I think that, Eva, you have any bereavement pay.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you got to go to your
mother's funeral.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, you have other ways to
take days off.
MS. HYDE: Yeah, but -- I mean, I understand --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe he doesn't have any
relatives.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That care anything for him,
and I see why. (Laughter.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, there's -- I just --
you know, I just never really thought about it, never read
that before.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like the three days. You
got to -- these people have to have time off to go see their
-- go to their mother's funeral. Knot-head.
JUDGE TINLEY: Jon comes from a very
conservative --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Really.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- culture. Well, their policy
provides that you're provided time off for one funeral, your
own.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Jonathan, there's a way we
could cut this down by 66 percent, and that would be to
follow the Jewish tradition; got to be in the ground within
24 hours.
MS. HYDE: Oh, whoa.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I guess I look at it as
there are -- I mean, I don't think people should take -- I
mean, I'm -- it sounds bad. People have vacation days. And
I don't mean that should be a vacation, but at the same time,
there are -- many times your closest ones you care about in
your family may not be that -- you know, real close. You may
have an uncle that helped raise you, and all of a sudden then
you're not covered for that person. That person has to take
vacation for someone that's more important to them than
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someone else.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If it's not in the
definition of family --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't get covered. I just --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't see anything about
uncles there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't have to worry about it
much, but I just don't see any reason for it.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're definitely in the
minority here. I can see that you and I need to have another
little talk.
MS. HYDE: It's three days; it's all they get. I
mean, it's a heck of a lot better than what we've been doing,
which could be 12, 15 days.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right.
MS. HYDE: For a stepsister of my mother's
brother's wife's cousins's person. Literally. And so, I
mean, I think people were kind of surprised when I said it
says three days per year. That's it.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: You got to pick the one you
want to go to.
MS. HYDE: You're damned tootin'. The first one
that dies, that's the one you get.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, grandma, draw straws.
(Multi-voice discussion off the record.)
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COMMISSIONER	LETZ:	That	just -	- I'll	be quiet.
JUDGE TINLEY:	Okay,	Ms.	Hyde.	Let's	come to the
next issue, okay?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We buried that one.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, while you're on
bereavement, we have emergency situations which aren't -- not
on here, but they're in here.
MS. HYDE: Emergency situations on 4.31?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. And there's inclement
weather and building emergencies. Those are paid periods? I
mean, I'm not sure I understand the point of what's in here.
What's it telling me?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 4.31?
MS. HYDE: So we're skipping --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Inclement weather.
MS. HYDE: Can I say this one thing? And we can
skip civil leave, 'cause "civil" needs to be "civic." They
all corrected my error. We're just changing the title from
"civil" to "civic."
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MS. PIEPER: Yes.
MS. HYDE: Okay, emergency situations. For
example, two years ago we had an ice storm, and we shut the
courthouse down by Commissioners Court order. Is that
correct?
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COMMISSIONER LETZ: By the Judge, probably.
MS. HYDE: Judge order. But the Court shut it
down. Everybody stayed home, and everybody got paid for that
day. However, comma, we had other days, like K.I.S.D.
called; school's out. Our employees -- some of our employees
felt like that was another paid day off, because they can't
come to work because their children can't go to school. I
don't mean this ugly. I have a dog, and I worry about her
being outside when it's cold, but I don't take off from work
and expect to get paid unless she's been bit by a scorpion or
broke her leg, and I'll take her to the vet.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or fell out of a tree.
MS. HYDE: Fell out of a tree. So, that's what
this -- that's -- this is kind of to tighten up that if the
Court says we're out and this place is shut down, and we're
paying them, that's one thing, but they don't make that
determination.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it says here, may be absent
subject to department head approval. Is "absent" -- does
that mean they may be absent with pay?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No.
AUDIENCE: No.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Says they're going to be
docked. Keep reading.
MS. HYDE: It says may be short -- will be shorted.
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This is a "will"; this wasn't even a "may." This was "will
be shorted on their payroll."
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, they can get -- they
may -- Linda may tell people, "Yeah, we're going to start at
10 o'clock today," but they're all going to get docked two
hours. Okay.
AUDIENCE: Unless the Court says it, right?
MS. HYDE: Unless the Court says that it's a close
-- we're closing.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay.
MS. UECKER: And the reason that came up was --
MS. HYDE: She's here.
MS. UECKER: She is here. I came back.
MS. HYDE: I said I didn't hear her.
MS. UECKER: The reason that came up is, we'd have
ice days -- and this was before Judge Tinley. We had a judge
that refused to make that call, so we had some department
heads say, "Oh, it's too cold; we're going to stay home."
And, you know, we're driving in over the ice and bridges to
get here, and we're -- well, you know, some of us are here,
and some of us have shut the place down. And there were
actually times where, you know, those folks that stayed got
paid as well as the folks that worked.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. That's -- with that
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MR. BARYON: What's the bottom line?
MS. HYDE: The only time you get paid when we shut
it down is if they shut it down.
MS. LAVENDER: Could you add the word "or" in
there?
time.
MR. BARYON: They can just get compensated for comp
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we shut it down, they don't
MS.
MR.
What I'm sayi
holiday pay.
MS.
MS.
working.
HARGIS:
BARYON:
ng is, we
HYDE: V
ROBISON:
He can't shut down.
I don't have people out, Jonathan.
reimburse them as holiday pay -- extra
cation or sick time or comp time.
He's talking about the ones that are
JUDGE TINLEY: You get paid 'cause that's why
you're out there.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's your job.
MS. ROBISON: Even though the County has closed
down?
JUDGE TINLEY: Let me tell you what I am working
on, and this -- this is an issue presented to me by state
emergency management. A policy provision that provides that
in the event of natural disaster or emergency situation, if
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it's required that Kerr County employees work -- perform
extra duties, work extra hours, that they're entitled to
extra compensation, compensatory time, or other sort of
remuneration appropriately as may be authorized under FEMA
rules. The reason that I'm doing this and I'm working on
this is because if you don't have it as part of your policy,
FEMA's not going to pay you, will not reimburse you for those
-- those extras. I've got a draft; I'm sending it to the
state emergency people.
(Commissioner Letz left the courtroom.)
JUDGE TINLEY: I asked them for guidance of -- of a
policy section. They -- they ran like a bunch of rabbits.
Even though they got that massive organization over there,
"Oh, no, we can't tell you that." But I'm sending it over
there anyway; let them disclaim again. But we're going to
add that to the policy so that in the event we have an
opportunity to get reimbursement for additional --
MR. BARYON: And that's fine.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- compensation, that we can do
that, but it's going to be under applicable state or federal
regulations that we can get that reimbursement.
MR. BARYON: Okay. Because a couple years ago,
when we had to shut the courthouse down because of the ice,
of course, a lot of workers didn't have to come in because
they were unable to, and the Commissioners passed that order.
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Those guys that were still working, to my knowledge, never
got compensated. Some people got two or three extra vacation
days, and these guys continued to work and never got
compensated with -- with any extra time off. That's all I'm
asking, is that if the courthouse should close -- because
that's basically just like another holiday. It's an
emergency, but the courthouse is closed based on y'all's
order.
MS. UECKER: That's why y'all make the big bucks.
MR. BARYON: And that either I can -- guys who are
still working, treat that like holiday pay, so they get
compensated monetarily for it, or we give them another day
off.
JUDGE TINLEY: They get paid the regular wage.
MS. ROBISON: He's saying should they get extra.
JUDGE TINLEY: If we pass a hazardous duty
provision for working under hazardous situations, I could see
maybe that would be appropriate, but as of now, we don't have
one.
MR. BARYON: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
MS. HYDE: Yeah, great
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:
(Commissioner Letz ret
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN:
Nice try, Clay.
try.
I understand your point.
urned to the courtroom.)
Jon, you missed a good
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MS. HYDE: Yeah, you would have liked it, 'cause it
would have been a "no." I mean, not that -- well, that came
out wrong too. I've hit him twice.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Let me take care of
this. It would have given you an opportunity to say no.
(Laughter.) But it was a good question, a good point. And,
of course, we're thinking law enforcement here.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, that we're big
fans of, right?
MR. BARYON: That's called public safety, Buster.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Public safety that you and I
are big fans of.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. But I think the
answer's no. But why? Why no?
MR. BARYON: You know, I should ask that question,
but I don't think I'm going to get an answer, so I'll just
leave it at that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ms. Hyde, can you tell us
why "no" is the answer?
MS. HYDE: Honestly? Sure. Because they are
public servants, and that's what they signed on for, 24 by 7,
365, unfortunately, whether they like it or not. No
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different than EMS, no different than hospitals. They don't
get extra hazard duty pay or anything extra when they work
and the whole place is shut down. When it was an ice storm,
people got overtime, because their butts -- whoever was in
the seat didn't get to go home, 'cause we knew no one was
going to come and replace them, so your butt was there for
18, 24 hours, or whatever D.O.T. would allow you to do. It's
unfortunate, but that's just kind of how things go. Is there
a gun?
MS. HOFFER: I have a question, because when we had
that ice storm, there were some issues at Road and Bridge,
certain people that claimed they couldn't come to work. And
when I was hired on at Road and Bridge, that was part of the
agreement of -- you're going to come and help with our bad
weather, things like that.
MS. HYDE: They got those trucks, right.
MS. HOFFER: Yeah, but it wasn't just them. It was
other employees that, "because I live 10 miles out," you
know, "and I've got to go over two or three crossings..."
Well, I don't see where that's the County's problem. You
made a choice to live where you live, and the -- all the
people that were there were the people that -- either who
lived in the city or lived really close, and we all had to
work, and those people stayed home. And I know they paid
them and then sent out a letter saying no more you don't
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show. But now I'm just kind of wondering --
MS. HYDE: That was my first ugly letter.
MS. HOFFER: Yeah. Well, I thought it was fair. I
mean, I still didn't think they should have gotten paid. I
don't think they should have gotten paid.
MS. HYDE: I don't either, but that --
MS. HOFFER: I mean, they did. But I just think
that that -- I know that Road and Bridge can be a problem at
times, and it's the same people who show up when there is a
problem, and it's a lot of them that live closer and are
there. But, like I said, when I was hired on, that was part
of my agreement, at least I thought, accepting the job, that
that's part of the job.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
MS. HOFFER: So that sometimes you're going to have
to work maybe at midnight or -- or when everybody else isn't
working, you're going to have to work, but that's part of
what you're agreeing to. And then all of a sudden, that kind
of went out the door. So, I just --
MS. HYDE: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kelly's good.
MS. HYDE: Commissioner Baldwin, on the flip side
-- I could always play the devil's advocate since he's not
here. We just said that if it was a holiday and they worked
their holiday, then they would get paid and we would budget
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for that. So, would it not stand to reason that -- that
closing down the courthouse and the courthouse system is
therefore a holiday, a paid holiday, due to an emergency or
whatever, so would you not pay them there? So, I'll play
both sides.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't go there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think she's nipping out of
her purse.
MS.	HYDE:	Did	that	answer your	question, though,
Commissioner	Letz?	That	they	will not be	paid?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes.
MS. HYDE: O.T. and compensatory time -- I have
problems with that word every time -- in 5.06. Strike out,
"Exception: Vacation and sick leave shall be counted as
hours worked." It says "actual hours worked," which means --
I don't know other words for actual hours worked, but it
means that the people are actually working. It's not
vacation time or sick time to get them into the overtime.
And this one I'll probably -- I might get shot down, but I'm
going to argue it from a business perspective, and a business
perspective is hours actually worked. If they take vacation,
that's great, but if I take vacation -- I work Monday and I
take -- I work 10 hours on Monday knowing I'm going to be off
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and I get my eight
hours, why should I get paid two hours of overtime 'cause I'm
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preparing to go on my vacation?
JUDGE TINLEY: Can we make the election of "over 8"
or "over 40"? And I'm excluding law enforcement, 'cause I
', understand they got a screwball situation there where they're
counted separate.
MS. HYDE: They're 171, yeah. We have -- we've had
it for two years, and no one's made any comments about it.
On the payroll sheets that they turn in to us, it tells them
that we do not pay overtime after 8; we pay overtime after
40.
JUDGE TINLEY: Solves it.
MS. HARGIS: That's the law. That says that in the
JUDGE TINLEY: I know in a lot of situations,
particularly union contracts, --
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.
JUDGE TINLEY: -- they'll negotiate for anything
over eight.
MS. HYDE: That's right.
JUDGE TINLEY: As overtime, or some sort of an
additional --
MS. HARGIS: But it states in the Fair Labor Act
you have to actually work 40 hours before you get overtime.
MS. HYDE: Actual hours worked. I just want to
make sure everybody understands that. Right now, people get
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angry with us because we'll say no, no, no, no, no, but it's
actual hours worked.
JUDGE TINLEY: Is that somewhere on your signed --
MS. HYDE: It's on the timesheets, but I can put it
in here where it spells it out.
JUDGE TINLEY: I think that -- and then they're
going to sign that when they come on board, that they -- they
only get overtime in excess of 40 a week. Tim, you had an
issue?
MR. BOLLIER: Yes, sir, I got a question. Since I
got here a little bit late, I see that we're on overtime
compensation down there. Like, whenever -- you know, we're
on this 40-hour kick. If you got a man that works 40 hours,
and then plus he also works a weekend that is a -- that is a
holiday, does he get paid overtime? Double time? Or what
are we going to do there? 'Cause, I mean, if they work 40
hours and then plus they come in and they work a weekend
function that's on a holiday, and they may put in 8 to 14, 15
hours; just depends on what the function is. So, I'm asking,
are we paying just single time on that holiday? Or are we --
I mean, overtime? Are we going to pay them double time that
holiday? That's my question.
MS. HYDE: On a holiday? I mean, I've heard three
different things. Which one is the scenario, hon? Is it
that I'm working 40 hours Monday through Friday and then I
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MR. BARYON: July 4th.
MR. BOLLIER: Or else they work a holiday that is
their normal working day.
MS. HYDE: If they work a holiday that's a normal
working day, then they get paid for working that day and they
get paid eight hours for the holiday.
MR. BOLLIER: Okay, got you.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That, in effect, is double
time for the day.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Double time.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What if they -- what if he
works Monday through Friday and then comes and works at the
Ag Barn on Saturday, and that Saturday happens to be a
holiday?
MS. HYDE: If it's not our holiday -- our holidays
aren't on Saturday, but let's just say you made one on --
because that fits what you're asking me. If you make one on
Saturday next year, then he would get paid or she would get
paid the eight hours they worked plus the holiday pay.
MR. BARYON: Be more like if you took a holiday on
Friday, came on working on a Friday that was a holiday, or a
Monday and they work through.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Monday.
MS. HYDE: And in section 5.06 -- excuse me --
yeah, 5.06, it does say overtime is not paid until after you
hit 40 hours.
MS. HARGIS: Is it actually --
MS. HYDE: For the purposes of overtime
compensation only -- and this is underlined and
I! highlighted -- hours actually worked in excess of 40 hours
during a work week will be counted. And we define the work
week as Sunday through Saturday.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the way it ought to
I be.
MS. HYDE: Except for law enforcement and the
juvenile detention.
6.02.
this one.
JUDGE TINLEY:	Okay.	Are	we through with that one?
MS. HYDE: Yes,	sir.	Drug	and alcohol testing,
JUDGE TINLEY: Got to be careful here, Buster.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I'm going to listen to
MS. HYDE: We said the change where it says "all
new hires are" to "all new hires may" be tested. We're not
saying we're going to. Depends on budget, to be quite
honest. But on the flip side, we also want to make sure that
if we can, we will. So, I'd like for y'all to ponder, when
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we get to the next -- the next part about the acknowledgment,
there's a couple more that we'd like to kind of talk about
and see if you want us to go that direction or not. Which
means that we -- that the person would sign something
acknowledging that we have the right to search, and we have
the right to conduct drug and alcohol screenings.
JUDGE TINLEY: Clear that with the County Attorney
first.
II MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you a question
about that. So, you want to test every employee?
(Ms. Hyde shook her head negatively.)
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's not what you're
saying. So, what's the change, then? Then the opposite of
that is random checking.
MS. HYDE: We've had some situations -- or
hypothetically, there could be situations where we have
employees that are suspect. Let's just say that we think --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. You --
MS. HYDE: -- that they're drinking.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You want a blood test?
MS. HYDE: And we want to be able to give them a
screen.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
MS. HYDE: We want to follow methods, not get
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II ourselves in trouble, but follow the methods and screen them.
Or if they're taking prescription meds and they have ten
different bottles sitting out on their desk, and they're
popping them like you and I would eat M & M's, there might be
a problem. Especially if the dates on those pill bottles are
two or three years old. So, that would be a cause for some
alarm, and someone should kind of --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would you give them a drug
MS. HYDE: -- put them out of service.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If they're standing there
with the bottles across their desk, eating them like M & M's,
there's a pretty good chance they're taking drugs.
(Laughter.) So, I don't get your point about that. But --
but -- so you want to randomly drug test people. I want you
to. Just talking about randomly.
MS. HYDE: We have to do it. We have to do it at
Road and Bridge. We have to conduct randoms because of
D.O.T. We'd like to be able to put the same type of language
throughout the courthouse, and we've talked about it multiple
times.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, that -- is that at
hiring time? Or occasionally my name's going to pop up?
MS. HYDE: Well, that will be up to the Court,
whether or not elected officials are included in that.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Is Clay's name going
to pop up?
MS. HYDE: He's already under a random. Law
enforcement.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's say --
MS. HYDE: Jody Grinstead? Jody could be a random,
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And you're just going to
draw names out of a hat? Or --
MS. HYDE: Typically you use either a wheel or you
use a computer system, and it just pops names out.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah.
MS. HYDE: You have a third party. You put
everybody's names in and they throw it in there.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I like that, myself.
JUDGE TINLEY: Question. "For good cause."
MS. HYDE: For good cause.
JUDGE TINLEY: You can -- at any time, an elected
official or department head can request. Is that not
correct?
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. We just want to make sure
that the elected officials and department heads understand
the rules of good cause.
JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I'm talking about.
Those are the ones you need to --
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MS. WHITT: They need to come to you if they have
suspicions. They need to come to H.R. and talk to H.R. about
their suspicions and then go from there.
JUDGE TINLEY: For guidance, yeah.
MS. HYDE: I'm open. I would like to -- we have
talked about it, and I'd like to do some training on cause,
and -- and allow them to understand.
JUDGE TINLEY: Got a training venture for you, Rex.
MR. EMERSON: Sir?
JUDGE TINLEY: I said we got a training venture for
you.
MS. WHITT: For instance, Eva, if an employee has a
vehicle accident and it turns out that it's that employee's
12th; they're at fault.
MS. HYDE: Well, we haven't done the safety
committee for the policies yet. However, what I'm used to
is, if you have used D.O.T. -- to be safe, use D.O.T. So, if
you have an accident and you're at fault and you have to be
~ towed, or there's a fatality or there is any sort of medical
attention away from the scene, that is an automatic drug
screen. That is an automatic --
MS.	WHITT:	I	agree.
MS.	HYDE:	Tha	t's just kind of -- sorry, I went
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. So, that's automatic.
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Those are kind of automatic.
MS. HYDE: Yes, sir, those are automatics. If you
have an accident with anybody, any bodily harm that -- you
know, where it has to be transported, you got drug screens --
drug and alcohol screens. And it just -- it protects you.
It protects the employee. And a lot of times people look at
it, "Oh, you're picking on them. You think they're a
druggie; you think they're an alchie." Absolutely not.
We're protecting our assets, our liability, and we're trying
to help that employee.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Shouldn't -- it just seems
to me -- it seems like that all -- all of the drug tests need
to be borne with the elected official or the department head,
or the boss of that -- I mean, you and I can't come along and
say, "Old Jody, she looks goofy today; let's give her a
test."
MS. HYDE: I think it needs to be -- I think it
needs to be the elected official or department head, but you
do randoms.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That comes to you in a
request? Say --
MS. HYDE: I don't know. I kind of feel that if we
all agree to it, then we all agree to it, and all the names
go in the hat. And that way, it's not me. It's not anybody
that's picking these names, or attempting to pick on a
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certain department, or -- you know what I'm saying? It is
truly random.
MS. HYDE: Oh, you're saying if somebody -- if you
think somebody is --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I think my employee
Jody is goofy. I think there's a possibility of some drug
abuse. She's late every Monday morning. That's a sign. It
really is a sign, so I think that she needs to be tested.
Now, I'm going to come to you and say, "Hey, old Jody's been
late four months in a row here." Do I fill out -- as her
employer, or department head, do I fill out a form that says
I think that she needs to be drug tested? I just talk to you
and then you go with it?
MS. HYDE: You just tell me that you want it done
and we send her for a drug screen. We just got to make sure
that your cause -- what you're using as your cause is a -- is
a good, legitimate cause. Because some people --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you have to have a
22 I cause?
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it MS. HYDE: There needs to be a reason.
JUDGE TINLEY: If it's not totally random, you have
to have good cause.
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COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay.
MS. HYDE: Like with the -- like with the pills on
the table. I'l1 just use that. Let's say Jody -- do you
mind my using you?
MS. GRINSTEAD: No.
MS. HYDE: Oh, Jody has 10 bottles of pills up, and
they're prescriptions. You walk in every day, and every day
she's popping these pills.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's more than 10.
JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, I saw 11 last time.
MS. HYDE: Now, that -- that would be for -- or,
you know, you think that Jody's had alcohol on her breath,
or, you know, you think she might be smoking dope. Now, she
said I could use her; she knows that this is hypothetical.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's pick on Jody day.
MS. HYDE: So, I mean, it -- the problem is, if you
don't have good cause, Commissioner, they can sue us. Rex?
MR. EMERSON: I just wanted to point out, Jody is
from California. (Laughter.)
'~ JUDGE TINLEY: I was thinking that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Chalk one up for the County
Attorney.
MR. BARYON: Are you going to incorporate into this
as a cause being in a vehicle wreck as being just cause?
MS. HYDE: I'd like for the Commissioners Court to
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pass the D.O.T. regs for any accident, and they --
MR. BARYON: Only thing I'm going to ask about that
is that our guys -- as y'all know, we drive a bunch of miles.
MS. HYDE: Except for law enforcement.
MR. BARYON: Every time we hit a deer, I don't want
to have to send someone to the E.R. to get a blood draw.
We're going to -- you can't budget that much money, folks.
MS. LAVENDER: Not your fault when you hit a deer.
It's only when --
MR. BARYON: I just think it ought to be --
MS. HARGIS: I think it's what Eva quoted a while
ago. We need to put it in place, and we can't say this group
doesn't have it and this group doesn't have it, because our
insurance carrier won't go for that.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No.
MS. HARGIS: We've got to have something in place,
because we kind of -- we did really well for a while. Now
we're having a rash of accidents. I mean, I've got several
on my desk. So, we need to -- you know, if somebody's
hurt -- what did you say?
MS. HYDE: If you have to seek medical attention
away from the scene, if any vehicle has to be towed, those
are automatic. And normally, when you hit a deer, they keep
going. They turn the lights on; they go anyhow.
MR. BARYON: Well, just depends on how you're going
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to define your accidents.
MS. HYDE: D.O.T. regs.
MR. BARYON: I don't know what the D.O.T. regs are.
MS. HYDE: I'll get with you.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, Clay, this --
~ MR. BARYON: $1,000 damage, like the law says an
I!, accident is, hitting a deer nowadays, you can cause $1,000
damage in a heartbeat.
i MS. HYDE: But D.O.T. doesn't put it in -- D.O.T.
regs do not put it in dollar increments, because you can hit
a cow, you can hit a goat, you can hit a deer, you can bottom
out in the water.
MR. BARYON: I mean, I'm not -- seriously, I'm not
opposed -- if we have a questionable incident where we feel
~i like we may get sued over a car wreck or something, I don't
have an issue doing that. I'm just trying to look at the
night-and-day issue of how we're going to do this, because, I
mean, we don't -- we're driving 24 hours a day, so it's just
going to be -- we quit going on this call. You know, they're
going to go to the hospital, because if we wait too long for
the blood test, you know, it's just going to be a mess.
Because a lot of guys keep their car going and go answer the
call that they were going on.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But to your point, law
enforcement can be separate, because they have a separate
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liability.
MS. HARGIS: Not on our insurance coverage.
MS. HYDE: Well, but they --
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Law enforcement shouldn't be
exempt from this. I mean, if what you're telling me is they
hit a deer and keep on going, that doesn't require it.
MS. HYDE: Right.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you hit a deer and your car
is totaled or someone gets hurt, then you got to go get a
blood test, and I think that's reasonable.
MS. HYDE: And if you really stop and think about
it, Clay, just like if your guys are in a wreck, the only
other -- the only problem I see is that sometimes they may
not want to say I'm hurt, so they might want to wait 24 or 48
hours before they say I'm hurt, and then they want to go to
the doctor. This forces the issue. If they have an
accident, if they have to be transported, if -- if the
vehicle has to be transported away from the scene, you go get
your blood screen.
MR. BARYON: And what about -- that's fine. What
kind of substances are you looking for? 'Cause if you blood
test me today, you're going to find I take prescription
I medication.
MS. HYDE: Well, then, if anyone's on prescription
drugs, the policy is also supposed to -- supposed to state
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that they're supposed to have disclosed that to the
department head or elected official, so we should know.
MR. BARYON: But that's not going to make any
variance on the fault of that accident because I was in a
drug screen today. You're going to find exactly what he
knows that I'm taking. That's not going to make any --
MS. HYDE: Say Oxycontin. Which I shouldn't be
handling -- you shouldn't be handling a vehicle if you're on
Oxycontin. Then we do have a liability.
MS. WHITT: I think what he's asking probably is,
like, for instance, say you have an officer that had surgery
two months ago, and he goes home and he's got a horrible
migraine and he's off that night, and he takes a hydrocodone
that night.
MS. HYDE: Best not be driving.
MS. WHITT: That's in his system, because it was a
prescription, and he actually has a prescription for it. But
then the next day, he's working and he has an accident, but
he hadn't disclosed. It's going to come back as positive.
MS. HARGIS: You guys need to deal with the
insurance companies like we have to deal with insurance
companies.
MS.	WHITT:	That's	-- and that's --
MS.	HYDE:	I don't	mean this ugly, but that's, I
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	JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.	I got a good idea, okay.
Have	we got the drug and alcohol	testing issue resolved?
	MS. HYDE: Oh, yeah.	
	JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.	And I don't see any more on
this	that we need to discuss at	this particular workshop. Do
~ you,	Commissioner?	
	COMMISSIONER BALDWIN:	I don't know. I can't
'I figur	e out if I'm sober or not.	
	MS. HYDE: The I.T. --	the I.T. is real simple.
	COMMISSIONER BALDWIN:	I.T.
~~,,
I	MS. HYDE: On the I.T.	policy, it's right there
', after	it, Judge. You missed the	whole paragraph.
	COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:	Which section?
	MS. HYDE: On the bott	om.
	JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, I.T	. Excuse me.
	MS. HYDE: Yes, sir.	Commissioner Letz thought I
forgot him.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you say you're cool
with safety? That's finished, right?
MS. HYDE: Excuse me?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Safety. You're finished
with that?
MS. HYDE: We left drug and alcohol and got on
safety, I think. On the computers, I think the I.T. policy
-- I need to ask a question. And I'm not trying to start
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anything; I truly need to understand. "Review and discuss
what the policy says offices can or cannot do with regards to
purchasing I.T. items." So, the first question we have was,
which offices does the policy apply to?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: A11, I would think.
MS. HYDE: Okay. And then the second question,
what are I.T. items?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I.T. items, in my mind -- in my
mind, it's computers or software.
MS. HYDE: Hardware and software, computers?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hardware, software, or anything
connected to the computer, like printers, I would say.
MS. PIEPER: And Xerox machines, 'cause we have a
Xerox machine that could be hooked up --
JUDGE TINLEY: It'd be a printer in that event.
MS. PIEPER: -- to the network. Would that be part
of the terminology?
MR. TROLINGER: Yes.
JUDGE TINLEY: Does the term "peripheral" include
everything, John?
MR. TROLINGER: No. Because, as Jannett said, a
copy machine, it's connected to the county network.
MS. HARGIS: But you aren't involved in any of
those contracts. Or do you want to be involved in those
contracts?
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MR. TROLINGER: I do.
MS. HARGIS: In the copy contracts?
MR. TROLINGER: Yes.
MS. HYDE: Yes, because they print -- those
printers are presenting our stuff. They're printing our
computer reports.
MS. HARGIS: Do you know how many contracts we have
out there on software? There's not a person in this building
that doesn't have their own individual -- I had to gather
those up for the auditors. So, I mean, they're -- every
single office has their own contract.
MS. HYDE: Well, yeah.
MS. HARGIS: And they didn't go through you to
begin with.
MR. TROLINGER: Most everyone has, yes.
MS. HYDE: Yeah.
MS. HARGIS: Mine never went through yours.
Jannett didn't go through you.
MS. PIEPER: I talked to them and said -- my
contract stuff, and said, "I'm going to look at this. I
think it'll be better with this machine. What do you think?
Will it work?"
MR. TROLINGER: Oh, if you mean is I.T. going to do
the purchasing --
MS. HARGIS: No, they don't. No, they don't. I
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can guarantee you that, 'cause some of them can't even find
their contracts.
MR. TROLINGER: Is your -- you're implying that
I.T. would do the purchasing for this, and that's not what
we're saying in the policy. It's simply an approval. Are
you going to purchase a copy machine that's going to plug
into the county network? Then --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or stand alone.
MR. TROLINGER: Or stand alone, potentially. It
has to have I.T. approval. Not necessarily the purchasing
process, but the approval process.
MS. PIEPER: Commissioners Court did the approval
of the contract. I just checked with him to make sure it was
compatible.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's what I'm -- to me,
the issue is that the copier is going to be compatible with
the system. That's the issue. It's not a -- it's not the
purchasing of it. It's whether the model that you want to
purchase is compatible.
MS. HARGIS: I think that needs to be spelled out.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The PC or laptops, are
those driven by server, or are they driven by the laptop or
the PC?
MR. TROLINGER: By the laptop or the PC.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, I'm not getting the
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MR. TROLINGER: Well, that's a peripheral, if it's
connected to your computer.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not getting the sense
of why you would sign off on my going from an H.P. product to
a Brother product that's going to hook to my PC.
MR. TROLINGER: Well, --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Case in point.
MR. TROLINGER: -- the more different types of
printers we have -- for instance, the County Clerk's a good
example. They have many printers, and if they have many
different printers that take many different ink cartridges or
toner cartridges, then it becomes a big expense to maintain
those.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's kind of a
different topic, isn't it?
MS. HYDE: But you also have -- Commissioner, if I
can interject, if you have 16,000 different kinds of -- types
of printers, when the printer fails, who do we call to fix
~~ it? So, one of the reasons why we -- we're asking some of
these questions, not that he's going to approve or
disapprove, per se, the actual piece of equipment. But do we
know how to work on it? Is it something we're familiar with?
Do we already have it? 'Cause this is part of that big
discussion that we had about I.T. at the end of the day, when
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wouldn't we be better
served to develop a list of -- of printers, for example,
since we're talking about printers, to develop a list of
those to which everybody signs off as being approved or
acceptable? "Acceptable" I like better than "approved." And
you purchase within the parameters of that list?
MR. TROLINGER: It changes too often. It really
does. Monthly.
MS. PIEPER: And then if we ask him about one and
he knows of a better product, then he tells us.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have any problem
I with that.
MS. PIEPER: This brand may suit our needs better
than what I was looking at.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I was looking at it
more from a standpoint of -- maybe my little home computer's
a lot different, but whenever I buy a new printer, all of a
sudden, a whole bunch of stuff gets loaded onto my little PC
from that printer. And if you get a whole bunch of stuff
incompatible, I can see it being a problem. I just have two
kinds of printers and one laptop, and they have problems
talking, figuring out which one --
MR. TROLINGER: Yes, the software that comes from
the printers is a huge issue.
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MS. HYDE: It used to be that when you plug those
bad boys in, they just printed. Now they've got these
wonderful little things like Google toolbars and Yahoo
toolbars and access and all this other little -- wonderful
little things.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Little computers, almost.
MS. HYDE: Yeah, like they're putting in a bunch of
software on the computers when they come in. Order -- order
this from here.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I don't want him to approve
the contract.
MS. HYDE: No. Maybe "approval" -- what was it you
said, "acceptable"? Maybe part of this is terminology.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: He just needs to sign off on
that, whatever the hardware is.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Try "acceptance" as opposed
to "approval."
MS. PIEPER: Yeah. "Consult" is a good word.
MS. LAVENDER: "Consult" sounds better.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the Judge is ready to
close this meeting.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How can you tell?
MS. HARGIS: He's leaning this direction.
MS. UECKER: It's time for juvenile probation
25 I court.
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(Low-voice discussion off the record.)
COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- so the I.T. policy
that's in front of me right here is what we're going with at
the moment? Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that a yes?
(Ms. Hyde nodded.)
JUDGE TINLEY: Kind of, sort of. It's going to be
MS. HYDE: We would like to get Rex and some folks
to look at it and bring the language down a little bit, move
some things around.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everyone's happy with all the
issues we've gone through the last six months?
MS. HYDE: No, they've not been, but everybody's
ready to go, so I'm trying not to open a can of worms.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, what's your next step?
MS. HYDE: I'll set one on I.T. alone, and then
I'll go ahead and put all of these changes in and updates so
that we'll have a new draft. And I'm assuming at this point
you're okay with everything except for the Number 10, which
is the I.T. So, I can go ahead and do those and make a new
draft, and everybody can have the new draft.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would put I.T. on a -- maybe
at our next Commissioners Court meeting, do a workshop just
on I.T., because I just want to make sure that -- we've got a
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lot of issues in I.T. All this stuff, I want to make sure
everyone's happy with it and signs off on it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about an
I.T. policy versus personnel policy?
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought it was going to be
part of it.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not the entire I.T. policy.
Is it the whole thing?
MS. HYDE: I.T. policy is -- I typed that bad boy,
and it's in here, Section 10.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: Section 10, I think, talks
about --
MS. HYDE: By court order.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- phone pagers and all kinds
of stuff.
MS. HYDE: We want to move some of this stuff
around.
COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it looks --
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Pretty simple to me.
MS. HYDE: I think some of it, the terminology, you
know, like what you were just saying, "approval." That makes
people think that John is saying yes or no, you can have
this. Maybe that's not a good term. Maybe we need to call
it something else. But somehow our I.T. people need to --
the policy states that we're not going to buy nothing without
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it going through I.T. That's what it says.
COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's what it should.
And if he says -- if he says no, that's not a good thing,
don't buy it. I mean, what -- where's the difficulty in
that? He and I just had a knock-down-drag-out about that
last week. If he says -- you know, if one of our departments
wants to look at some software, you got to talk to John
before you do anything. If John says no, we don't buy it. I
don't get it. I don't get what the problem is here. Do you?
All right, then, let's go home. Let's go to the State
Hospital and get drunk.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's do it. Tempest in a
teapot. Let's go.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Is that it for the workshop?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Till we meet again.
JUDGE TINLEY: Hearing nothing further, we will
adjourn the workshop.
(Workshop was adjourned at 3:12 p.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 30th day of June, 2009.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
B Y : }C PGI~~fA ~2G0%LtG/~i
Kathy Bafiik, Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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