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KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT
Workshop Session
Monday, March 16, 2009
10:30 a.m.
Commissioners' Courtroom
Kerr County Courthouse
Kerrville, Texas
Workshop with Marvin Crabtree with USDA regarding
Center Point/East Kerr Wastewater and/or Water Projects
PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge
H.A."BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1
WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2
BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4
ABSENT: JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3
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On Monday, March 16, 2009, at 10:30 a.m., a workshop
meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in
the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse,
Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in
open court:
P R O C E E D I N G S
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me call to order this
Commissioners Court workshop scheduled for this date and
time, Monday, March 16, 2009, at 10:30 a.m. It is that time
now. The agenda item is to participate in a workshop with
Marvin Crabtree with the U.S.D.A. with respect to Center
Point/East Kerr wastewater and/or water projects.
Commissioner Williams, do you want to launch this thing for
I us?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me see if I can do
that, Judge. Let's see. Back whatever date that was, Jesse
Jack, when they broke the ground over at -- for the Salvation
Army was the day you and I met and talked about how we could
figure out how to get some stimulus money to support some
projects that mean something to Kerr County. And the result
of that was that we were hopeful to be able to cobble
II! together a meeting that would involve Marvin and U.S.D.A.
people and talk about this issue. So, that's kind of the
forerunner that got us to this point here today, the purpose
of which is to talk about the Center Point wastewater -- East
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Kerr wastewater and water projects, and see whether or not
there is funding through U.S.D.A., maybe this huge pot of
money that's coming down from Washington. The good guys in
Fredericksburg will get out their cachement basin and catch
some of that money and be able to funnel it down the line to
Kerr County. So, we also thought we'd take the opportunity
to talk about Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center, our Ag Barn,
and some of our plans for the improvement of that, and see
whether any -- any or all of this would qualify for
consideration under U.S.D.A. That said, Judge, then I asked
I
I Jesse to get ahold of Marvin, and Marvin's here today, and
I here we are. So --
MR. CRABTREE: Glad to be here. This is my boss,
Richard Graham, the area director. He's out of Seguin,
Texas. Several years ago, Center Point had approached us
about a wastewater treatment -- or wastewater collection
line. I believe that Kerrville was going to actually treat
that. Is that correct?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let met fill you in on
where we are, Marvin, so you know exactly what's taken place
since you and I spoke the last time we spoke in your office,
which is probably a couple years or so ago. We identified at
that time some options. We were thinking of options, and one
of the options was to build a wastewater treatment plant.
One of them was to take the effluent westward and hook up to
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the city of Kerrville's utility stub in the vicinity of the
airport, and the third option was to transmit the effluent to
Comfort downstream, all gravity flow down, and hook up to the
W.C. & I.D. -- Kendall County W.C. & I.D. facility in
Comfort. They have their own wastewater treatment facility.
They are probably at one-fourth capacity; they have plenty of
capacity left, and it was a very attractive idea.
Since you and I met, we have been -- before that
time we were, and have continued to be, in front of Texas
Water Development Board, initially for a planning grant,
which was $150,000, and we got that. That's done. Went
back, and we are currently now involved with the Water
Development Board for a $238,000 grant, which 25 percent is a
Kerr County match, for the additional planning that goes on.
Okay. They have -- under the EDAP program -- Economic
Distressed Areas Program, okay? We've qualified that area
for EDAP consideration, so we're in -- in the planning phase
of the EDAP steps that go along, okay? And that's under way
currently. So, what we're hoping to be able to achieve is
knowing exactly where the funding is going to come from so
that we can move the project forward.
MR. CRABTREE: Mm-hmm. We have a water and waste
disposal program. And the Center Point area, what we're --
you know, what we talked about, is Center Point designated as
a colonial

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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Identified as a colonia
designation several years ago.
MR. CRABTREE: Right, but they --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And it hasn't changed.
MR. CRABTREE: Hasn't changed?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That came about after they
disincorporated.
MR. CRABTREE: Mm-hmm, okay. Were y'all trying to
pursue a loan and grant combination, or are you looking at
grant funds to do colonia --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whatever gets the job done
at the least impact for the taxpayers of Kerr County.
MR. CRABTREE: Right. Because it's kind of a --
two different programs, that 306(c), and then our water and
waste is a little different. What they've informed us is we
don't know exactly the dollar amount. It's based on your
median household income; it's based on the rates that would
be charged, and they've got to be kind of comparable to other
facilities of like size.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What was the designation of
the program? Three-oh --
MR. CRABTREE: 306(c), Colonia --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. CRABTREE: -- program. And the other's just a
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program, and I've got applications here today for y'all, and
some information sheets under that utility program. But we
look at the median household income, how it compares to
others in the state. And right now, if it continues the way
it is, it looks like Kerr County's median household income is
such where they wouldn't qualify for a grant under the water
and waste. Isn't that correct, Richard, the way you look at
it? Based on our deal. But if Center Point designates
separately, I don't know what the median household income is
for that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me see if I can shed
some light on that for you. Under the EDAP program, you have
to be able to be at 75 percent of the state median or less.
MR. CRABTREE: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay? And that area of
Center Point and going east towards Comfort has qualified.
MR. CRABTREE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We have done the median
household income surveys on two occasions.
MR. CRABTREE: That's good, 'cause we would need
that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That area qualified. Now,
obviously, Comanche Trace and Riverhill don't qualify.
25 ~ MR. CRABTREE: Right.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But they don't need it.
This area does qualify.
MR. CRABTREE: That's right. Because when they
looked at Kerr County, I'm sure they included that with that,
and that's why it didn't qualify, you know, because you got
higher income.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
MR. CRABTREE: Center Point has always been
recognized as lower income. Then, of course, Comanche Trace.
We would take that into consideration, median household
', income. If that was the case and that was the census tract,
it was recognized, y'all could qualify, be eligible for grant
funds, but they also look at your rate that you're going to
be charging. You know, like, you'd have to determine through
a preliminary engineering report -- you know, an engineer
could determine, you know, it's going to cost, you know, four
or five million dollars, and we've got so many customers, and
their rate would be this dollar amount.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We've gone through that
exercise. The only unknown component at this point is what
the rate structure will be, and that depends on several
factors. Depends on debt load, if any.
MR. CRABTREE: Correct.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It depends on the cost to
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considerations built in there.
MR. CRABTREE: Right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Debt load we don't know
about. Rate structure we're working on.
MR. CRABTREE: Mm-hmm. And probably, it sounds
like it would be easier to treat it in Comfort. Would they
be willing to sign a long-term contract and treat y'ap's --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes.
MR. CRABTREE: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They will.
MR. CRABTREE: 'Cause that would be a factor, you
know, in determining --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We've met with them.
MR. CRABTREE: Because that's probably going to be
quicker to send it downhill than -- you know, cheaper in the
long run than to put in lift stations to try to move --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Transmission line is
longer, but the ultimate long-term cost is less.
MR. CRABTREE: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And for the reasons you
noted. We're not pumping it uphill; we're gravity-ing it
downstream.
MR. CRABTREE: Right. Of course, Richard and I
will work to try to get y'all the maximum grant possible, but
I want you to realize, there will probably be some loan funds
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I, through other sources than what we have presently. But all
those are factors. We would encourage you to apply for it,
because costs are going to do nothing but go up in the
future, and we think it's good for the communities as a
whole. And any way I can help y'all, I'd be glad to help
y'all. I brought an application with me today. It's up to a
40-year loan, 40-year payback if you did receive a loan,
which is a long term.
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What kind of interest is tied
into that?
MR. CRABTREE: Depends on -- it's the cost of money
to the government. Right now, you're looking around -- it
could be around 4 and a half percent, but it -- you know, it
fluctuates, so I hate to pin down a certain --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just wanted an estimate.
MR. CRABTREE: And then it also depends on your
median household income. If we get it low enough, you can
get an intermediate rate; it might lower it some. But that's
not a bad rate right now, you know, for -- or housing loans,
which we do here in Kerr County, Legion Hills, you know, we
have several houses we finance there. You know, our interest
rate now is down to 4 percent on direct loans. Since I've
been working, I don't know if it's ever been at 4 percent. I
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can't remember.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would be a loan to the
U.S. government through U.S.D.A., right? R.U.S.?
MR. CRABTREE: Uh-huh.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Now, that's -- that's not
the floating of revenue bonds, right? This requires a
commitment of tax -- tax backup by Kerr County; is that
correct?
MR. CRABTREE: Yes, it would.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not revenue bonds.
MR. CRABTREE: Not revenue. It would be what we
~I
call G.O. bonds, probably.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right.
MR. CRABTREE: Certificates of obligation.
MR. GRAHAM: Depends on who the applicant is,
Commissioner.
MR. CRABTREE: It would be Kerr County.
MR. GRAHAM: County's going to be the applicant
borrowing these funds?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
MR. GRAHAM: Rather than a water control
improvement district or a --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. The answer is yes.
MR. CRABTREE: Yeah.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
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MR. GRAHAM: How many households do you anticipate
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Probably, at the outset, as
the project moves from Center Point eastward, I would say in
the vicinity of 400, maybe more. Maybe more. And under the
EDAP program with Water Development Board, hookup is
mandatory. So, you know, you can't -- you can't preserve
your right to do something later. It's mandatory. But also,
there are other funds -- and I'm not sure about how you guys
handle this, but there's other funding available through
C.D.B.G. block grants for hookups so that people in the low
to moderate income status can get a free hookup.
MR. CRABTREE: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which, you know, might
MR. CRABTREE: We'd like to work with anybody
involved. You know, we're not -- we don't want to tell you
that, hey, you can't get one of those funds from us and just
get them strictly. We'd like to work with other entities.
We work with the state now on other --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You anticipated my question
in terms of you guys working with Water Development Board.
MR. CRABTREE: Sure.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't want to close off
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MR. CRABTREE: That's exactly right.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right now, the EDAP program
has been -- the Center Point project's been accepted by Water
Development Board as an EDAP project. It's qualified by
it -- for it. And if we get a certificate of necessity, I
think it is, out of the Texas Department of Health during
this planning period that's going on right now, that could
ultimately qualify Kerr County for up to 100 percent funding.
MR. CRABTREE: Mm-hmm.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay? So, what we want to
do is parlay all these sources together and make this thing
happen.
MR. CRABTREE: You bet, yeah. We've kind of
explained our program. If we can help y'all, fine, but, you
I know, if something's better out there, we encourage you to
apply. You know, we would like to see everybody get the
lowest cost possible for their houses -- hookups.
MR. HEREFORD: Marvin, could you explain a grant
and loan kind of combination? 'Cause you were saying there's
not a 100 percent grant, but there's -- there's kind of a
combo hybrid. Could you explain that?
MR. CRABTREE: It's really based on what their cost
would be involved, the amount of funds that are available.
So, until we got some actual data, like, hey, it's going to
cost $4 million to build this facility; we've got 400 users,
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you know, so your average user's cost is going to be so much
a month. They'll compare that to other similar size entities
throughout the state. So, to come out with a hard figure, it
would be impossible at this time. I would be telling you a
story if I gave you -- and she's taking it down, so I hate to
tell her a story.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: She's taking down
everything you say.
MR. CRABTREE: If he wants to tell you what you
qualify for --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And once we get the
transcript, we're going to read between the lines.
(Laughter.)
MR. CRABTREE: That's right, yeah. Yeah, they
might have me in the facility here. (Laughter.) But you
mentioned something about your community facility, you know,
the Hill Country --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hill Country Youth Exhibit
I Center.
MR. CRABTREE: I'm -- we've looked at that in the
past, and it's adjacent to Kerrville and -- the proximity.
We have a -- a limit on the number of individuals that can
qualify. You have to have less than a certain number of
II people, and Kerr County -- Kerr -- the city of Kerr is a
little too big to qualify for a community facility loan.
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I'll run that by people higher up than me, but right now, we
don't have a program to help y'all with the Hill Country
i, Youth Center. Have y'a11 thought about applying for Texas
Parks and Wildlife funds to do that?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're examining all our
MR. CRABTREE: Because I have another entity that's
looking at that, a smaller community that's trying to combine
funding through the communities facility program. It's kind
of a matching deal, you know, where you can furnish --
COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. We've been there and
done that a long time ago, but it never -- we'd have to
submit a new plan, because I think it was rejected.
MR. CRABTREE: I see.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, our concept's
changed, too.
MR. CRABTREE: You know, the area increases, 'cause
city of Kerrville as a whole hasn't dropped in population,
have they, below 20,000?
MR. OVERBY: Going up, 23.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, what are you saying in
terms of that? That this -- the location of this, even
though it's outside the city limits, because it's close to
the city, it doesn't qualify? Is that what you're saying?
MR. CRABTREE: It's -- the people that would
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utilize it is the -- and, Richard, do you want to explain
that a little better than me? But it's the proximity to the
city. It's kind of in your territorial jurisdiction still
because of the size of the community that you have.
MR. OVERBY: Mm-hmm.
MR. GRAHAM: Under the community facility program,
we can't exceed a 20,000 population. And we'll use the 2000
census, and Kerrville at that time was 20,425, so it exceeds
that -- that limit. You're actually now -- if the County is
the applicant, you're actually serving about 43,653 people.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm.
MR. GRAHAM: And so we're having to take that into
consideration. We can fund projects outside the city limits
of Kerrville, but then again, if the County is the applicant,
then you're still serving Kerrville also, and they look at
the population. We can't serve a -- we can't loan to a
facility that's going to be utilized by a population that
exceeds the 20,000.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hmm.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's interesting.
MR. CRABTREE: Kind of a strange program. We don't
wake make the rules; we just -- isn't that right, Richard?
But there ar_e other avenues to pursue besides just us as far
as funding goes. I would encourage y'all to do that, 'cause
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I think the youth are important, you know. We think it's a
good program.. And if our rules change in any way, or --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon?
MR. CRABTREE: If our rules change or the law
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MR. CRABTREE: -- I'll be sure to tell you. I'll
meet with y'all again, and be glad to --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Some of these dollars that
are flowing out of Washington now -- I'm not sure whether you
know the answer or whether Jesse Jack knows the answer.
They're being broken down, I assume, by federal agencies, and
then that flows on down, farm bills and so forth, things that
normally U.S.D.A. does. So, you folks are getting an extra
bonanza of dollars under the stimulus package, right? Are
~, there -- are the rules all going to be the same, or are they
going to be different, a little more liberal, if you will, in
terms of -- of application for funding of projects, or do you
know the answer to that?
MR. CRABTREE: We're not aware of anv chanaes at
this time. We're not going to see any --
MR. HEREFORD: I think the way that the money's
broken down is the federal agencies will have their grant
programs, and then y'all have the formula funds through
C.D.B.G. and, you know, the highway formula funding. And
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then the other chunk of money will be going to the state
agencies for the states to distribute. And so, in terms of
the rule making, that I don't know. I think each agency has
to go through their own process and procedure. But I do
think that it'll go through each agency in terms of the
grants. So maybe all they'll do -- and, again, nobody seems
to know right now. They passed the legislation; I don't even
know if the check's been cut yet to the agencies. But the
agencies -- what they may do is just keep their current
federal grant programs and just put this money into that,
because they already have the rules written for that, but
that kind of still remains to be determined.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, what we heard about
shovel-ready -- shovel-ready projects may not necessarily
mean shovel-ready projects.
MR. HEREFORD: Well, that was the intention of the
bill, but no, in terms of the actual funding and the grants,
we'll have to wait and see on that.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Any idea when we'll
know?
MR. HEREFORD: I know that there are grants being
posted already for the -- the stimulus bill or the Recovery
Act that are out there. I know that -- you know, some of
them seem not to have the funding amounts in -- in those
grants yet, so they don't have the pot of money, but they
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know that there is going to be a pot of money for that. But
we can certainly go back and look at it. I wanted the guys
from U.S.D.A. Rural Development to come in today to
specifically speak about the Center Point water projects. I
know we still have the Ag Barn, but on behalf of Senator
Hutchison, we do want to thank U.S.D.A. Rural Development for
coming out and speaking to the Commissioners Court today.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have two comments -- two
questions or comments. Are there any other agencies, Jesse,
that the Hill Country Youth Exhibit project might qualify for
consideration? That's question number one. I got another
one for Marvin.
MR. HEREFORD: Possibly. It depends on what the --
the Hill Country Youth Exposition is focused on. I know that
there's money for, you know, the National Endowment of the
Arts, but you have to have some sort of historical art
tie-in, and there are all these other grants, and so we may
be able to find something else out there. The other thing is
C.D.B.G. funds might be able to -- I don't know if you'll be
able to use that for this project.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This may be a little large
for a C.D.B.G. block grant. But if you could, you know,
examine the prospect of whether or not there are other
agencies that this project might qualify for, we sure will be
interested.
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MR. HEREFORD: Will do. I'll take a look.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Marvin, going back to
Center Point, we talk about wastewater, but also water's in
the mix, okay? And --
MR. CRABTREE: It's the same application. You can
apply at the same time.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay.
MR. CRABTREE: And we encourage you to do both.
Because if you can control the water, it helps to get your
sewer bill paid, too, if you have any --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Has the same
parameters?
MR. CRABTREE: Mm-hmm. Forty-year limit, and
it's -- you can do water and waste, you know, bonds at the
same time. So, I encourage you to apply at the same time.
It's -- have your engineer determine --
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, there's a preliminary
engineering study under way companion to ours on the sewer,
which some of the funding went to U.G.R.A. for that purpose,
okay?
JUDGE TINLEY: Is their application still active?
The water component of it?
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, because they got a
grant, Judge, at the same time we did.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
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COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So that planning is going
JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I wasn't sure where they were
on that, and we just don't know at this point.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly.
JUDGE TINLEY: Okay.
MR. CRABTREE: But you've got my phone number; you
can call me up. I'm just up the road. I'l1 be glad to come
down and visit with you or talk to you on the phone.
'~ JUDGE TINLEY: Come help push this wheelbarrow down
the highway here.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We had several big guys --
(Laughter.) We had several big guys lined up to help you
push that wheelbarrow up the ramp this morning; you came up
the steps with a little old briefcase.
MR. CRABTREE: Yeah. Well --
JUDGE TINLEY: Guy, did you have any comments that
you wanted to make from an economic development --
MR. OVERBY: I just think it's --
JUDGE TINLEY: -- standpoint?
MR. OVERBY: I think it's just, you know, great to
hear the different ideas that are out there. I think the
25 ~ Center Point area has so much potential of economic impact
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that -- not only for Kerr County, but for our surrounding
areas, and that development -- that whole area is huge, and
I'm glad that it's a high priority. I appreciate everything
Commissioner Williams has been doing, helping this project
get to this point, and everybody here working on that. It's
exciting.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got a ways to go yet.
MR. OVERBY: Yes.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you need a copy of this
resolution, or will that be a part of our resolution?
MR. CRABTREE: Part of the application. I've got
the application here.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure.
MR. CRABTREE: And I'll give it to you when y'all
-- whenever -- whoever wants it.
I JUDGE TINLEY: Any -- any gentleman have any more
questions for Mr. Crabtree or his folks here? Or
Mr. Hereford with the senator's office? Well, let's fold it
up, then. We'll be adjourned. Thank you for being here.
COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you both.
(Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 10:54 a.m.)
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STATE OF TEXAS ~
COUNTY OF KERR ~
The above and foregoing is a true and complete
transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as
County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County,
Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth.
DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 17th day of March, 2009.
JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk
B Y : ~~/N.(~~
Kathy Bani Deputy County Clerk
Certified Shorthand Reporter
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