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			   	8				   	KERR  COUNTY  COMMISSIONERS  COURT
			    	9						  	Budget  Workshop
			  	10					  	Tuesday,  August  31,   	2010
			  	11								10:00  a.m.
			  	12					  	Commissioners'   	Courtroom
			  	13					   	Kerr  County  Courthouse
			  	14						  	Kerrville,   	Texas
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			  	23     	PRESENT:    	PAT  TINLEY,   	Kerr  County  Judge					  	cj
								H.A.  "BUSTER"  BALDWIN,   	Commissioner  Pct.   	1		  	CD
			  	24			  	WILLIAM  "BILL"  WILLIAMS,   	CommissionerPct.   	2
								JONATHAN  LETZ,   	Commissioner  Pct.   	3				 	CO
			  	25			  	BRUCE  OEHLER,   	Commissioner  Pct.   	4
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			   	1						     	,  I  N  D  E  X
											August  31,   	2010
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			   	3     	Review  and  discuss   	FY  2010 -11  budgets  and  fiscal,
				   	capital  expenditure,   	and  personnel  matters  related
			   	4     	thereto,   	including,   	but  not  limited  to,   	cost -of- living
				   	adjustment,   	salary  considerations,   	staffing  levels,
			   	5     	health  benefits  and  insurance							    	3
			   	6     	- --     	Adjourned										    	45
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			   	1		  	On  Tuesday,   	August  31,   	2010,   	at  10:00  a.m.,   	a  budget
			   	2     	workshop  of  the  Kerr  County  Commissioners  Court  was  held  in
			   	3     	the  Commissioners'   	Courtroom,   	Kerr  County  Courthouse,
			   	4     	Kerrville,   	Texas,   	and  the  following  proceedings  were  had  in
			   	5     	open  court:
			   	6					    	P  R  O  C  E  E  D  I  N  G  S
			   	7			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Good  morning,   	ladies  and  gentlemen.
			   	8     	Let  me  call  to  order  this  Kerr  County  Commissioners  Court
			   	9     	workshop  scheduled  for  this  date  and  time,   	Tuesday,   	August
			  	10     	31,   	2010,   	at  10  a.m.    	It  is  that  time  now.    	The  agenda  item
			  	11     	that  we  have  for  the  workshop  is  to  review  and  discuss  F.Y.
			  	12     	2010 -11  budgets  and  fiscal  capital  expenditure  and  personnel
			  	13     	matters  related  thereto,   	including,   	but  not  limited  to,
			  	14     	cost -of- living  adjustment,   	salary  consideration,   	staffing
			  	15     	level,   	health  benefits,   	and  insurance.    	At  the  conclusion
			  	16     	of  our  last  workshop,   	why,   	there  was  mention  that  we  needed
			  	17     	to  get  on  with  trying  to  finalize  this  process,   	and  I
			  	18     	indicated  at  that  time  that  it  was  my  intention  to  start  that
			  	19     	process  by  filing  a  proposed  budget  for  consideration  by  the
			  	20     	Court.    	I,   	in  fact,   	did  that  last  Friday.
			  	21			  	Now,   	that  budget  included  a  3 -cent  tax  rate
			  	22     	increase  for  Kerr  County.    	It  also  included  a  six - tenths  of
			  	23     	one  cent  tax  rate  increase  for  lateral  roads.    	Road  and
			  	24     	Bridge,   	okay,   	there's  a  separate  tax  rate  imposed  for  that
			  	25     	portion.    	The  budget  also  included  the  expenditures  which
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			   	1     	have  been  discussed  at  some  length  here  in  the  numerous
			   	2     	budget  workshops  which  we've  had,   	as  modified  by  the
			   	3     	consensus  which  was  seemingly  reached  in  those  workshops.    	It
			   	4     	also  included  a  further  reduction  of  $250,000  --  or,   	excuse
			   	5     	me,   	$25,000  to  the  County- sponsored  social  service  agencies,
			   	6     	which  were  anticipated  to  be  done,   	but  not  discussed  in  any
			   	7     	detail  before  the  Court,   	but  mentioned  that  it  needed  to  be
			   	8     	reviewed.    	It  also  included  a  $250,000  reduction  in  personnel
			   	9     	costs  to  be  accomplished  by  midyear,   	by  attrition,
			  	10     	retirement,   	or  elimination  of  funding  for  selected  county
			  	11     	positions.    	It  did  increase  --  it  did  include  a  funding
			  	12     	allowance  of  2.287  million  for  the  employee  health  benefits
			  	13     	program,   	that  being  based  upon  the  employees'   	participation
			  	14     	in  the  funding  of  that  program,   	and  it  included  a  2  and
			  	15     	one -half  percent  cost -of- living  allowance  for  all  county
			  	16     	employees.
			  	17			  	I   	see  this  Court's  obligation,   	first  and  foremost,
			  	18     	as  safeguarding  and  promoting  the  financial  integrity  and
			  	19     	stability  of  Kerr  County,   	and  at  the  same  time  maintaining  a
			  	20     	stable,   	qualified,   	and  effective  work  force  to  provide  the
			  	21     	service  to  the  public  that  we  provide.    	Now,   	the  tax  rate
			  	22     	increases  which  I  have  included  within  the  budget  which  I
			  	23     	filed  are,   	I  believe,   	absolutely  essential  to  increasing  our
			  	24     	reserves.    	By  way  of  example,   	without  the  tax  rate  increase
			  	25     	to  the  Kerr  County  portion  of  the  budget,   	our  reserves  there
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			   	1     	will  be  approximately  10  and  one -half  percent.    	With  that  tax
			   	2     	rate  increase,   	they  increase  to  just  under  15  percent.    	I
			   	3     	would  remind  you  that  a  number  of  years  ago,   	at  the
			   	4     	recommendation  of  the  state  Comptroller,   	we  adopted  a  policy
			   	5     	that  our  reserves  should  be  25  percent.    	In  recent  years,   	we
			   	6     	have  continually  eroded  those  reserves,   	to  the  point  where
			   	7     	I'm  concerned  that,   	particularly  in  the  first  quarter  of  the
			   	8     	next  fiscal  year,   	if  we  do  not  increase  our  reserves,   	we  will
			   	9     	be  required  to  borrow  funds  for  operating  capital.    	Even  at
			  	10     	15  percent,   	they're  going  to  be  far  short  of  that  25  percent
			  	11     	target.    	With  regard  to  the  lateral  roads,   	without  that  tax
			  	12     	increase,   	there'll  be  just  over  19  percent.    	With  it,   	it  will
			  	13     	go  to  just  approximately  21  and  a  half  percent;   	there  again,
			  	14     	short  of  that  25  percent  policy  that  we've  adopted.
			  	15			  	Now,   	we  also  have  an  obligation  to  the  rating
			  	16     	agencies  and  those  that  purchase  our  debt  issues  to  maintain
			  	17     	our  financial  integrity  and  stability,   	and  failing  to  do  so
			  	18     	in  some  of  the  obligations  which  we  have  could  jeopardize  the
			  	19     	status  of  those  obligations.    	This  we're  required  to  do  in
			  	20     	good  times  and  bad.    	Without  taking  those  steps  to  insure  our
			  	21     	stability  and  our  integrity  of  our  financial  position  as
			  	22     	being  sound  and  stable,   	we  will  not  be  able  to  secure  funds
			  	23     	when  we  need  them  at  the  attractive  low  rates  that  we've
			  	24     	enjoyed  in  the  past.    	Most  recently,   	we  borrowed  at  2.29
			  	25     	percent.    	Now,   	during  our  budget  discussions,   	we  have  seemed
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			   	1     	to  be  somewhat  reluctant,   	maybe  even  to  the  point  of  --  of
			   	2     	embarrassed,   	possibly,   	to  discuss  the  compensation  which  we
			   	3     	pay  all  of  our  county  employees,   	particularly  elected
			   	4     	officials  and  department  heads.    	That  should  not  be  the  case.
			   	5     	That  portion  of  our  budget  which  is  allocated  to  personnel
			   	6     	costs,   	percentage -wise,   	is  significantly  lower  than  other
			   	7     	local  governmental  agencies.    	I  would  submit  that  our
			   	8     	employees,   	including  the  elected  officials  and  department
			   	9     	heads,   	give  the  citizens  and  taxpayers  of  this  county  at
			  	10     	least  as  much  value,   	if  not  more,   	than  those  of  other
			  	11     	governmental  agencies,   	and  including  private  sector
			  	12     	employment.
			  	13			  	You  know,   	recently  I'm  sure  most  of  you  saw  that,
			  	14     	our  local  daily  newspaper  did  a  major  front -page  article  on
			  	15     	the  compensation  paid  to  top  or.  key  employees  of  city
			  	16     	personnel.    	They  also  did  the  same  type  of  story,   	front  page,
			  	17     	on  the  local  school  districts,   	those  same  type  of  personnel.
			  	18     	No  such  article  of  that  type  was  run  concerning  Kerr  County
			  	19     	personnel.    	Did  you  wonder  why?    	Did  it  ever  occur  to  you?    	I
			  	20     	would  welcome  an  article  of  that  nature,   	particularly  if  it
			  	21     	were  done  in  a  manner  that  showed  a  side -by -side  comparison
			  	22     	to  other  governmental  agencies  that  it  chose  to  do  that  same
			  	23     	information  on.    	My  thinking  is  that,   	had  they  done  it  on  the
			  	24     	county,   	it  would  not  have  achieved  the  same  shock  effect  that
			  	25     	they  desired  to  achieve  when  they  ran  the  other  articles.
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			   	1     	But  if  they  did  that,   	I  think  the  disparity  would  be  very,
			   	2     	very  clear.
			   	3			 	We  should  not  be  reluctant  at  all  to  talk  about  the
			   	4     	value  of  our  employees.    	Were  fortunate  to  have  them.
			   	5     	They're  dedicated,   	they're  qualified,   	and  they  provide  a  high
			   	6     	quality  service  to  the  citizens  and  taxpayers  of  this  county.
			   	7     	Without  them,   	we  could  not  function.    	I  will  stand  firm  on
			   	8     	our  obligation  which  we  have  to  adequately  compensate  them.
			   	9     	That  is  a  must.    	Without  them,   	we  are  nothing.    	Now,   	the
			  	10     	Auditor  has  pointed  out  since  the  filing  of  that  budget,
			  	11     	there  were  a  couple  of  items  that  were  omitted  in  the  way  of
			  	12     	utility  costs  to  the  new  S.O.   	Annex  and  the  detention
			  	13     	facility  where  we're  going  to  relocate  the  Juvenile  Probation
			  	14     	people.    	Based  upon  some  figures  that  the  Auditor  and  I
			  	15     	discussed,   	that's  going  to  increase  the  budget  expenditures
			  	16     	by  a  total  of  approximately  $40,000.    	Those  need  to  be  added.
			  	17     	Gentlemen,   	comments?
			  	18			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	Thus  far,   	I  don't  disagree
			  	19     	with  what  you've  said.
			  	20			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Judge,   	may  I  have  the  --
			  	21			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Surely.
			  	22			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	You  have  the  3 -cent  tax
			  	23     	increase,   	and  then  there  was  a  number  with  lateral  roads,   	and
			  	24     	I  failed  to  get  that.
			  	25			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	It  was  six - tenths  of  one  cent.  Now,
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			   	1     	Commissioner,   	there  was  some  discussion  about  maybe  moving  a
			   	2     	portion  of  the  lateral  road  tax  over  to  Kerr  County.    	When  --
			   	3     	when  I  looked  at  that,   	my  concern  there  was  not  only  not  do
			   	4     	that,   	but  increase  their  reserve  also.    	Even  though  their
			   	5     	percentage  of  reserve  may		higher,   	the  dollar  amount  is
			   	6     	considerably  lower.    	You  take  one  flood  event,   	and  it  would
			   	7     	literally  wipe  that  out.    	And  if  that  happens,   	then  where  --
			   	8     	where  are  they  to  draw  upon  additional  reserves?    	Kerr
			   	9     	County.    	So,   	we  --  we  then  have  to  prop  up  Road  and  Bridge
			  	10     	with  the  reserves  of  Kerr  County.    	I  think  we  need  to
			  	11     	increase  them  both.
			  	12			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	Judge,   	on  that  lateral  roads,
			  	13     	did  you  look  at  the  --  I  think  there's  another  --  a  flood  --
			  	14     	or  there's  another  account  over  there,   	a  reserve  account  that
			  	15     	covers  --  I  want  to  say  it's  flooding.    	We  used  that  fund,   	I
			  	16     	know,   	for  the  Hermann  Sons  Bridge,   	which  was  kind  of  --  did
			  	17     	you  look  at  that  number?    	And  it's  usually  not  a  --  a  huge
			  	18     	number.    	Jeannie?
			  	19			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	It's  Flood  Control.
			  	20			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	Flood  Control.    	Is  that  what  it
			  	21     	is?
			  	22			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	It's  got  $83,000   	in  it.
			  	23			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	83,000.
			  	24			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Won't  go  very  far.
			  	25			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	No,   	but  it's  --   	I  mean,   	it's  --
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			   	1     	from  the  standpoint  if  you  add  that  to  the  --  I'm  not  sure
			   	2     	the  limitations  of  it.    	There's  a  little  bit  more  over  there.
			   	3     	Overall,   	I  don't  disagree  with  much  of  what  you  said.    	I  --   	I
			   	4     	think  a  cost -of- living  increase  of  2.5  is  higher  than  what
			   	5     	I'm  seeing  the  national  trend.    	Our  trend  may  be  slightly
			   	6     	higher  here,   	but  I  also  go  back  to  --  I  think  it  was  last
			   	7     	year,   	or  --   	I  think  it  was  last  year,   	we  estimated  that  cost
			   	8     	of  living  higher  than  it  turned  out  to  be  by  one  or  two
			   	9     	points.    	Eva's  looking  at  me  like  I'm  crazy,   	but  that's  my
			  	10     	recollection.    	So,   	you  know,   	I  think  that,   	you  know,   	2
			  	11     	percent  is  more  in  line  there.    	I  think  you  are  --  I  do  agree
			  	12     	with  you  that  our  reserves  are  dangerously  low,   	and  if  it
			  	13     	takes  a  tax  increase  to  build  them  back  up,   	we  need  to  do  a
			  	14     	tax  increase.    	I  was  thinking  a  little  bit  lower  than  three,
			  	15     	but,   	you  know,   	I  really  don't  have  a  real  problem  at  three
			  	16     	cents.    	And  hopefully  it's  somewhat  of  a  short  term,   	being  --
			  	17     	you  know,   	once  it  gets  built  up,   	we  can  implement  some  of  the
			  	18     	other  things  we're  talking  about,   	including  the  overall
			  	19     	slight  reduction  in  staff,   	and  I  think  we  may  be  able  to  get
			  	20     	there.
			  	21			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	The  most  recent  figure,   	I  think,
			  	22     	that  was  presented  on  cost -of- living  was  2.45.    	That's  my
			  	23     	recollection  of  what  we  saw  most  recently.    	The  --  the  health
			  	24     	benefits  program,   	you  know,   	we've  --  disregarding  the  things
			  	25     	that  we  have  no  control  over,   	the  additional  withholding,   	the
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			   	1     	additional  tax  rates  and  so  forth  that  we're  all  going  to
			   	2     	have  to  suffer  on  the  federal  administration,   	we  also  have
			   	3     	our  health  benefits  program  plugged  in  so  that  they're  going
			   	4     	to  be  participating  and  investing  in  that,   	so  we've  --
			   	5     	they're  losing  ground  there.    	Now,   	you  know,   	if  those  numbers
			   	6     	continue  to  go  south  like  they've  been  going,   	all  we've  got
			   	7     	is  a  budget  number  for  our  health  benefits  program;   	we  may
			   	8     	well  have  to  make  some  significant  adjustments  there  on  what
			   	9     	we're  able  to  provide  or  what  we  require  of  our  employees   	in
			  	10     	connection  with  that  program,   	or  what  folks  we  can  actually
			  	11     	insure.    	If  those  numbers  are  such  that  --  once  we  set  the
			  	12     	budget  number,   	we  can't  go-  back  and  add  to  it,   	as  you  wail
			  	13     	know.    	We  do  this  one  time  a  year,   	and  --  and  we  got  to
			  	14     	figure  out  a  way  to  make  it  work  within  that.    	But  those
			  	15     	numbers  are  not  looking  as  good  as   	I'd  like  for  them  to,
			  	16     	unfortunately.
			  	17			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	Judge,   	what  was  the  outside
			  	18     	date  that  you  cited  for  a  force  reduction?
			  	19			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Midyear.
			  	20			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	Midyear.    	Mid - budget  year?
			  	21			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Yeah,   	mid - budget  year,   	which  will  be
			  	22     	March  31.    	There  was  earlier  mention  of  --  of  --
			  	23			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	January.
			  	24			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	--  January  1st.    	But  in  trying  to
			  	25     	accomplish  the  number,   	it  occurred  that  for  an  entire  year,
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			   	1     	the  number  was  targeted  at  $500,000.    	The  250  would  be  for
			   	2     	half  a  year,   	so  that  would  give  you  up  to  a  half  a  year  in
			   	3     	order  to  accomplish  those.    	So,   	that's  the  reason  I  plugged
			   	4     	it  in,   	specified  it  for  midyear.
			   	5			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	All  right.
			   	6			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Because  the  numbers  worked  out.
			   	7			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	In  the  budget  you  presented,   	is
			   	8     	the  city  fire  contract  included?
			   	9			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	It  is.
			  	10			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	I  think  Buster  wanted  that
			  	11     	put  back  in.
			  	12			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	Right,   	I  saw  that  e- mail.  But
			  	13     	I  wanted  to  know  --
			  	14			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	Well,   	it's  not  that  what
			  	15     	everything  you  said  is  wrong.    	It  just  seems  to  me  that  --
			  	16     	you  know,   	that  that's  a  real  good  way  to  put  it,   	except  for  a
			  	17     	tax  increase.    	I  notice  all  the  other  school  districts  have
			  	18     	not  done  that.    	They  have  cut  staff.    	They  have  done  things
			  	19     	to  balance  their  budgets  within  their  means,   	and  I  think  that
			  	20     	Kerr  County  shouldn't  be  exempt  from  that.    	Times  are  tough
			  	21     	on  everybody.    	You  know,   	there's  a  lot  of  big  contractors
			  	22     	laying  off  people,   	and  they're  just  trying  to  hang  on.    	But
			  	23     	yet  in  Kerr  County,   	you  know,   	we  --  I   	say  "we."    	If  the
			  	24     	majority  of  the  Court  votes  to  give  a  salary  increase,   	--
			  	25     	whether  you  call  it  a  COLA  or  whatever  you  call  it,   	it's
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			   	1     	still  an  increase  in  pay  --  that,   	to  me,   	doesn't  seem  fair  to
			   	2     	the  public.    	And  I  think  that  we  have  to  --  if  we  have  to  do
			   	3     	drastic  things  to  cut  like  other  people  have  done,   	we  need  to
			   	4     	do  so.    	And  that's  --  that's  the  basic  principle  that  I  think
			   	5     	that  we  all  --  if  we  were  in  the  private  sector,   	like  I  have
			   	6     	been  for  many,   	many  years,   	if  you  don't  have  work,   	you  can't
			   	7     	hire  people.    	You  can't  hang  onto  them,   	and  you  doggone  sure
			   	8     	can't  give  them  an  increase  in  pay  when  there's  no  money  out
			   	9     	there.
			  	10			  	You  know,   	within  the  past  couple  years,   	there's
			  	11     	such  a  small  group  now  that  is  doing  the  --  that  will  be
			  	12     	paying  this  increase  over  what  there  once  was  that  you  kind
			  	13     	of  narrowed  it  down  to  the  people  that  are  still  working  and
			  	14     	still  trying  to  make  a  living  and  still  having  --  you  know,
			  	15     	being  private  contractors  and  whatever,   	in  private  business.
			  	16     	And  I   	just  don't  think  government  should  be  exempt  from  doing
			  	17     	the  same  things  that  business  has  to  do  whenever  times  get
			  	18     	tough.    	And  we  are  in  a  tough  time.    	This   	is  maybe  a  little
			  	19     	tougher  than  it  was  back  in  the  early   	'90's  when  the  banks
			  	20     	closed  and  the  real  estate  went  level  just  like  it  is  right
			  	21     	now.    	We  did  have  a  little  bit  of  an  increase  this  year.    	At
			  	22     	the  same  tax  rate,   	we  would  have  a  little  bit  more  revenue,
			  	23     	but  not  much.    	And,   	of  course,   	the  things  that  we  can't
			  	24     	control  are  the  things  that  have  been  passed  down  to  us,   	like
			  	25     	they  get  passed  along  to  us  every  time  the  Legislature  or
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			   	1     	Congress  meets.    	And  I  don't  know  where  it  stops,   	but  I  do
			   	2     	know  that  if  local  government  does  the  same  things  that  --  as
			   	3     	state  and  federal  government  do,   	it's  only  going  to  get
			   	4     	worse.    	And  I   	just  don't  see  passing  more  taxes  on  when  you
			   	5     	could  absolutely  tighten  your  belt  and,   	whether  we  like  it  or
			   	6     	we  don't,   	make  it  work.    	That's  about  all  I  got  to  say  about
			   	7     	it.
			   	8			  	I  don't  agree  that  --  that  we  ought  to  --  you  know,
			   	9     	we  need  to  be  more  careful  with  what  we  have,   	and  spend  it
			  	10     	maybe  more  wisely  and  prepare.    	This  may  be  a  good  lesson  for
			  	11     	us   	in  the  future,   	when  we  start  getting  into  good  times
			  	12     	again,   	maybe  to  hold  onto  some  of  that  and  not  give  it  all
			  	13     	out  in  pay  raises  every  time  you  turn  around.    	I  mean,   	some
			  	14     	of  the  employees  --  yes,   	they  were  lower  paid,   	but,   	you  now,
			  	15     	you  tell  somebody  that  --  you  know,   	the  last  three  years,   	21
			  	16     	percent's  a  lot  of  money.    	It's  a  lot  of  money  paid  out  of.
			  	17     	the  county  coffers,   	and  there  was  a  tax  increase  two  years
			  	18     	ago  that  made  that  possible.    	So,   	we're  back  to  it  again,   	and
			  	19     	I'm  sure  that  I'm  a  minority  here,   	like  I  normally  am,   	but
			  	20     	that's  the  way  I   	feel  about  it.
			  	21			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Well,   	Commissioner,   	I  certainly  take
			  	22     	no  pleasure  in  proposing  a  tax  rate  increase.    	I  --  I -would
			  	23     	prefer  not  to  do  that.    	But   	I   	feel  for  the  financial
			  	24     	stability  and  soundness  of  Kerr  County,   	it's  something  that's
			  	25     	got  to  happen  under  the  circumstances.    	In  the  private
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			   	1     	sector,   	as  --  as  things  downsize,   	they  reduce  services,   	they
			   	2     	reduce  inventory.    	Our  level  of  service  remains  constant.    	It
			   	3     	remains  the  same.    	We  don't  have  that  same  ability.    	The
			   	4     	public  demands  us  to  continue  to  perform.    	They  demand  law
			   	5     	enforcement.    	They  demand  emergency  services.    	They  demand
			   	6     	that  their  roads  be  traversable,   	and  all  of  those  other
			   	7     	various  things  that  we  provide.    	If  anything,   	our  courts  are
			   	8     	busier  because  of  --  I  think  it  goes  without  saying,   	during
			   	9     	hard  times  your  --  your  degree  of  criminal  activity,   	your
			  	10     	degree  of  civil  disputes,   	those  sorts  of  things,   	they  seem
			  	11     	to  --  they  seem  to  get  worse.
			  	12			  	I   	know  we  look  at  revenue  that  --  that  comes   	in
			  	13     	from  sources  over  which  we  have  no  control,   	and  we  try  and
			  	14     	judge  that  as  the  basis  for  the  amount  of  activity  or  work
			  	15     	being  performed  in  a  given  office,   	much  the  same  as  happens
			  	16     	in  the  private  sector.    	Gross  revenues  are  up  while  sales  are
			  	17     	up,   	and  all  those  things  happen.    	Our  activity  is  up,   	but  our
			  	18     	revenue's  down.    	I  think  the  District  Clerk,   	for  example,   	had
			  	19     	some  numbers  that  she  brought  forward  when  there  was  mention
			  	20     	about  those  figures  being  down.    	Certainly,   	in  some  cases
			  	21     	there's  a  correlation,   	but  in  most  cases  there's  not.    	We
			  	22     	just  got  to  go  forward  and  keep  performing  for  the  public.
			  	23			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	Well,   	the  only  thing  that  --
			  	24     	only  thing  that  we'd  have  to  do,   	which  wouldn't  be  pleasant,
			  	25     	is  to  cut  some  of  those  services  and  limit  --  you  know,   	and
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			   	1     	not  be  able  to  do  all  of  the  things  that  everybody's  gotten
			   	2     	used  to.    	That's  the  other  side  of  it.    	You  know,   	there's  --
			   	3     	they  might  have  to  stand  in  line  in  the  Tax  Assessor's  office
			   	4     	to  get  their  license  plates  or  pay  their  taxes.    	And,   	you
			   	5     	know,   	they  may  have  to  stand  in  line  in  Jannett's  office  to
			   	6     	record  a  deed,   	if  there's  any  transactions  taking  place,
			   	7     	which  there  aren't  a  whole  lot  of  sales  going  on  right  now,
			   	8     	which  creates  less  work  in  there  for  the  time  being.    	Of
			   	9     	course,   	we  know  it'll  come  back  at  some  point,   	but  there  are
			  	10     	--  you  know,   	there  are  other  counties  worse  off  than  we  are.
			  	11     	And,   	you  know,   	if  we  look  at  what  --  some  of  the  things
			  	12     	they're  having  to  do  just  to  keep  the  doors  open,   	it  might,
			  	13     	you  know,   	make  it  a  little  more  clear  where  we're  headed.
			  	14			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	I  think,   	Judge  --  and  I
			  	15     	don't  --  philosophically,   	I  think  Commissioner  Oehler  and  I
			  	16     	are  very  close.    	And  I   	look  at  it  --  and  three  cents  gets  us
			  	17     	about  a  million  dollars,   	I  mean,   	plus  or  minus.    	A  million
			  	18     	dollars   	is  20  people.    	We're  already  reducing  10,   	and  we  had
			  	19     	a  hard  time  figuring  out  really  where  10's  going  to  come
			  	20     	from.    	Where  is  another  20  going  to  come  from?    	And  what
			  	21     	services  are  we  putting  --  that's  why  if  I  can  see  a
			  	22     	blueprint,   	then  I  could  agree.    	We  need  to  come  up  with  ',a
			  	23     	million  dollars.    	We've  petty  much  --  you  know,   	it's  going  to
			  	24     	take  personnel  or  some  big  --  you  know,   	we  don't  have  much
			  	25     	discretionary  budget  in  our  money;   	it's  got  to  be  personnel
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			   	1     	to  get  there,   	and  I  just  can't  see  how  you  get  there.
			   	2			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	So  it'd  be  a  drastic  measure,
			   	3     	but  if  you  don't  give  a  COLA,   	there's  300  and  --  anywhere
			   	4     	from  200,000  to  $330,000,   	by  not  giving  a  COLA.    	That's  one.
			   	5			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	Right.    	But  we're  still  700  --
			   	6     	you  know,   	700,000  --  and  that's  --
			   	7			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	If  you  cut  10  this  year  by
			   	8     	midyear,   	that  means  you'll  have  10  for  the  following  year  for
			   	9     	a  whole  year.
			  	10			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	Mm -hmm.
			  	11			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	Just  like  last  year,   	there
			  	12     	was  a  --  there  was  a  cent  and  a  half  COLA  that  didn't  go  in
			  	13     	till  half  the  year.    	Well,   	it  impacts  this  year  for  the  whole
			  	14     	year,   	one  and  a  half.    	Plus,   	if  you  add  more  onto  that,   	then
			  	15     	here  we  go  again.    	We  just  keep  going  up,   	up,   	and  up.    	And  I
			  	16     	realize  our  costs  go  up,   	but  at  the  same  time,   	I  just  --  just
			  	17     	don't  know  how  we  can  continue  try  to  stay  status -quo
			  	18     	whenever  the  money's  not  there.
			  	19			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	I  don't  see  it  as  a  status
			  	20     	quo,   	Commissioner.    	I  think,   	first  of  all,   	you've  got  to  take
			  	21     	care  of  the  people.    	They  face  the  same  pressures   	in  th4
			  	22     	marketplace  as  we  do.
			  	23			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	Mm -hmm.
			  	24			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	And  their  income  is
			  	25     	eroding.
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			   	1			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	Mm -hmm.
			   	2			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	And  I  think  that's  part  and
			   	3     	parcel  of  our  obligation,   	to  the  extent  possible,   	to  take
			   	4     	care  of  that.    	I  think  one  of  the  worst  things  that  could
			   	5     	possibly  happen  to  us  if  we  fail  to  do  what  is  fiduciarily
			   	6     	correct,   	is  to  have  to  face  the  awesome  possibility  of  going
			   	7     	into  the  financial  marketplace  early  next  year  and  borrow
			   	8     	money  to  sustain  our  operations.    	I  think  that  would  be,   	in
			   	9     	my  opinion,   	improper.
			  	10			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	You  know,   	we  could  also  take
			  	11     	a  2  and  a  half  percent  pay  cut,   	us  included.
			  	12			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	We're  not  exempt  from
			  	13     	anything.
			  	14			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	No.    	I'm  just  saying,'you
			  	15     	know,   	that's  another  --  that's  more  money.    	If  you're  looking
			  	16     	for  money,   	I  mean,   	there's  ways  to  do  it.    	And,   	you  know,
			  	17     	you  --  it's  been  --  you  know,   	it's  been  a  lot  of  increases
			  	18     	over  the  last   	10  years  or  so,   	and  at  some  point  in  time,   	you
			  	19     	know,   	you  got  to  kind  of  stop  and  regroup.    	That's  just  --
			  	20     	I've  had  to  do  it  in  business.    	I  can  tell  you  that  I've  been
			  	21     	without  work  and  just  barely  --  struggled,   	had  to  borrow
			  	22     	money  to  stay  alive  till  I   	found  a  job  again,   	several  times
			  	23     	within  my  lifetime.    	And  it  was  not   	fun.    	And  I  couldn't  have
			  	24     	any  employees  to  do  anything;   	there  wasn't  even  work  to  do.
			  	25     	And  so,   	you  know,   	I   	know  the  pain  and  I  know  what  these
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			   	1     	people  are  feeling  that  don't  have  a  job.    	Been  there.    	I  was
			   	2     	so  broke  I  couldn't  pay  attention  for  a  long  time,   	but  not
			   	3     	because  I  wouldn't  work.    	It's  because  jobs  weren't  there.
			   	4			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	Understandable.
			   	5			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	So,   	you  know,   	I  just  --  I
			   	6     	feel  bad  about  having  to  do  drastic  things  and  drastic  times,
			   	7     	but,   	you  know,   	that's  just  my  philosophy  and  the  way  I  see
			   	8     	it.    	And  I   	know  that  there  are  people  that  get  hurt  by  that,
			   	9     	but  I  think  that  you  --  you  look  out  for  the  many,   	and  a  few,
			  	10     	you  know,   	have  to  get  hurt  sometimes,   	whether  you  want  them
			  	11     	to  or  not.    	End  of  story.    	I'm  going  to  shut  up.
			  	12			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Commissioner,   	if  you  think  there  is
			  	13     	not  some  angst  out  here  among  these  folks  that  have  spent  a
			  	14     	good  number  of  years  of  their  working  life  for  the  benefit  of
			  	15     	Kerr  County,   	wondering  what's  going  to  happen  by  March  31,
			  	16     	who  those  folks  are  going  to  be  and  what  they're  going  to  do
			  	17     	if  they  draw  the  short  straw  or  the  black  bean,   	it's  out
			  	18     	there,   	I  assure  you.
			  	19			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	I  don't  --  I  cannot  doubt
			  	20     	that.    	I   	know  it  to  be  fact.    	There's  no  way  that  anybody
			  	21     	would  want  to  draw  the  short  straw  or  get  the  black  bean,   	or
			  	22     	I  would  want  to  say  that  that's  the  one  that  has  to  go.    	But
			  	23     	sometimes  you  have  to.
			  	24			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Ms.   	Uecker,   	you  had  a  comment?
			  	25			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	Yes.    	I  don't  know  if  this  is  the
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			   	1     	right  time  to  do  this.
			   	2			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Well,   	if  you  don't  know,   	maybe  it's
			   	3     	not.
			   	4			  	MS.   	DECKER:    	I  hate  to  add  to  the  problem,   	but
			   	5     	it  --  it's  on  the  point  of  the  --  losing  the  10  employees.    	I
			   	6     	guess   	I've  got  the  first  problem.    	I  didn't  think  I  would
			   	7     	have  it,   	but  I  do.    	District  clerks'   	offices  typically  are
			   	8     	training  grounds  for  D.A.'s  offices,   	where  they  do  the
			   	9     	same  --  have  the  same  responsibilities,   	but  they  can  get  a
			  	10     	title  so  they  get  paid  more.    	I'm  losing  one  of  my  key
			  	11     	people,   	one  of  my  courtroom  people,   	on  September  the  15th
			  	12     	just  for  that  reason.    	So,   	I   	says  to  this  person,   	"Well,   	I
			  	13     	don't  think  that  the  D.A.   	can  hire  you,   	because  there's  a
			  	14     	freeze."    	"Well,"   	she  said,   	"no,   	the  D.A.   	checked  with  the
			  	15     	Auditor.    	He  said  it  was  okay;   	it  was  a  lateral  transfer."
			  	16			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	Didn't  check  with  me.
			  	17			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	So,   	you  know,   	I  don't  know  if  that's
			  	18     	true.
			  	19			 	MS.   	HARGIS:    	No.
			  	20			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	I  didn't  say  it  was  true.    	I  just  --
			  	21			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	That  wasn't  the  response  I  gave
			  	22     	either,   	Ms.   	Uecker.
			  	23			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	I   	said,   	"Well,   	you  know,   	I'm  just
			  	24     	saying  that  you  better  make  sure  that  you  can  do  this."
			  	25     	Well,   	she  went  ahead  and  gave  me  her  resignation,   	'cause
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			   	1     	she's  going  to  work  for  the  D.A.'s  office.    	This   	is  one  of  my
			   	2     	key,   	key  courtroom  people.    	You  can't  put  just  anyone  in  a
			   	3     	courtroom  to  deal  with  that  kind  of  pressure  with  --  you
			   	4     	know,   	I've  got  several  that  are  courtroom  folks,   	but  there
			   	5     	are  some  that,   	you  know,   	probably  couldn't  do  it  right  away,
			   	6     	so  this  is  one  of  the  three  people  that  has  to  go.    	If  I  move
			   	7     	someone  out  of  that  --  out  of  another  position  into  there,
			   	8     	then  that  leaves  me  with  two  people  in  the  office.    	One  of
			   	9     	them  is  in  the  back  on  court  days.    	So,   	you  know,   	how  are  we
			  	10     	going  to  deal  with  that?    	I  mean,   	what's  going  to  be  the
			  	11     	policy  on  lateral  transfers,   	transferring  from  within?
			  	12			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	That's  one  we  hadn't  thought
			  	13     	of.
			  	14			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	I  suspect  that'll  be  a  matter  for
			  	15     	consideration  at  the  next  agenda.    	Is  that  not  correct?
			  	16			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	You  want  me  to  put  it  back  on  the
			  	17     	agenda,   	then?    	Or  --
			  	18			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	I  thought  it  was  going  to  be  there
			  	19     	anyway.    	I  thought  it  was  going  to  come  from  both  directions.
			  	20			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	Well,   	I  --  I'll  put  it  on  the  next
			  	21     	Commissioners  Court  agenda,   	but,   	you  know,   	I  --  I  don't  know
			  	22     	what  direction  I've  got  to  take  now.    	And,   	you  know,   	I've
			  	23     	even  had  two  people  in  my  office  come  and  say,   	you  know  --
			  	24     	you  know,   	"I  appreciate  the  2  percent,   	but,   	you  know,   	I  would
			  	25     	maybe  rather  forego  the  2  percent  than  have  somebody  lose
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			   	1     	their  job."    	So,   	you  know,   	I  don't  know  how  other
			   	2     	employees  --  I  haven't  talked  to  the  rest  of  mine,   	but  those
			   	3     	were  just  two  volunteers  that  said,   	"Well,   	you  know,   	I  don't
			   	4     	know;   	I   	kind  of  hate  to  see  anybody  lose  their  job."    	So  --
			   	5			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Now,   	I  don't  know  what  portion  of
			   	6     	those  personnel  reductions  will  come  from  attrition,   	•
			   	7     	retirement  or  other.
			   	8			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	Well,   	and  that's  probably  the  issue.
			   	9     	If  all   	10  of  them  come  from  retirement,   	you  know,   	I'd  like  to
			  	10     	know  that.    	You  know,   	I  hate  to  think  about  losing  someone,
			  	11     	and  then  come  to  find  out  all  10  of  our  reductions  comes  from
			  	12     	the  retirement,   	and  I'm  going,   	you  know,   	okay.    	So,   	should
			  	13     	have  I  been  able  to  keep  that  person  or  refill  that  position
			  	14     	or  what?
			  	15			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	I  look  at  the  --  the  reduction
			  	16     	as  a  total  workforce  reduction,   	you  know.    	I  think  once  you
			  	17     	get  10  down,   	then  you  reshuffle  the  deck,   	so  to  speak.    	So,
			  	18     	you  know,   	that's  how  I   	look  at  it.    	I  mean,   	it's  kind  of  a
			  	19     	two -edged  sword  there.    	One,   	you've  got  to  get  the  numbers
			  	20     	down;   	our  total  employment  has  to  go  down.    	That's  how  you
			  	21     	make  the  --  the  budget  impact.    	And  then  during  that  next  six
			  	22     	months,   	we're  evaluating  where  in  our  county  family  those
			  	23     	cuts  have  to  come.
			  	24			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	Okay.
			  	25			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	That's  not  necessarily  -
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			   	1     	because  you  have  two  people  retire  out  of  your  department,
			   	2     	that  you  lose  two  people.    	That's  not  how  I  look  it,   	anyway.
			   	3     	It's  got  to  --  it's  just  a  matter  of  --  we  got  to  get  the
			   	4     	number  first.
			   	5			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	Well,   	I'll  just  put  it  back  on  the
			   	6     	court's  agenda,   	but  I  would  like  to  know  today  what  the
			   	7     	position  is  on  transfers  from  other  offices,   	still  county
			   	8     	employees.    	Is  that  a  no?    	Or  is  that  --
			   	9			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	I  don't  know  that  we  can  take
			  	10     	action  today.
			  	11			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	I  don't  think  we  can  give  you  an
			  	12     	answer  to  that  today.
			  	13			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	Okay.
			  	14			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	We  did  not  discuss  it  when
			  	15     	we  enacted  the  hiring  freeze.
			  	16			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	No,   	and  that's  why  I'm  bringing  it  up.
			  	17     	Because  --
			  	18			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	But  that's  --  we  just  can't
			  	19     	take  action.    	We're  in  a  workshop  item,   	and  for  to  us  take  --
			  	20     	that's  basically  what  you're  looking  for,   	for  action.
			  	21			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	Okay.
			  	22			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Okay?
			  	23			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	I  guess  I  was  just  kind  of  trying  to
			  	24     	see  where  we're  going.
			  	25			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Sheriff?
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			   	1			  	SHERIFF  HIERHOLZER:    	I  have  just  a  few  comments
			   	2     	over  it.    	I  don't  have  a  problem  with  what  the  County  Judge
			   	3     	is  asking,   	and  let  me  explain  why.    	I  think  this  Court
			   	4     	y'all  have  done  a  remarkable  job  with  county  tax  dollars  over
			   	5     	the  last,   	even,   	30  years  that  I've  been  employed  with  the
			   	6     	county,   	and  I  think  the  employees  of  this  county  overall  have
			   	7     	been  asked  to  give  up  a  lot,   	or  to  stay  lower  than  our
			   	8     	counterparts  over  those  last  30  years.    	The  last  few  years,
			   	9     	y'all  took  action  to  try  and  bring  those  employees  up,   	but
			  	10     	they're  not  at  that  point  yet.    	And  I  can't  give  an  example
			  	11     	for  all  the  different  county  employees.    	I'm  sure  if  I
			  	12     	compare  Judge  Tinley's  salary  to  that  of  the  municipal  court
			  	13     	judge,   	we'd  all  probably  be  shocked.    	I  can  give  you  my
			  	14     	salary  compared  to  my  counterpart's;   	$30,000  a  year
			  	15     	difference.
			  	16			  	But  what  I'm  saying  is,   	the  county  has  enjoyed  the
			  	17     	deal  of  having  the  lowest  taxes  throughout  the  county.
			  	18     	County  taxes  are  much  lower  than  city  and  much  lower  than  the
			  	19     	school  districts.    	And  this  year  is  a  bad  year  for  all  of  us,
			  	20     	your  reserves  being  as  low  as  they  are.    	But  all   	I  have
			  	21     	heard,   	it's  a  total  economic  problem.    	It's  a  total  county
			  	22     	problem.    	It's  --  it's  going  to  be  borne  by  every  citizen  of
			  	23     	this  county,   	okay?    	In  the  private  sector,   	as  Bruce  says,   	you
			  	24     	know,   	if  they  have  hard  times,   	what  happens?    	Your  milk  costs
			  	25     	you  more,   	your  other  things.    	They  make  up  a  lot  of  that
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			   	1     	difference  by  going  up  in  the  cost  of  their  services.    	This
			   	2     	county  has  kept  the  cost  of  the  services  down  to  the  bare
			   	3     	minimum  for  30  years,   	'cause  every  year  it's  come  up,   	and
			   	4     	every  year  it's  taxes  and  things  like  that.
			   	5			  	And  maybe  we  --  none  of  us  did  what  we  should  have
			   	6     	done  over  the  last  number  of  years  of  bringing  it  up  just  a
			   	7     	little,   	but  the  one  big  thing  I  differ  with  Bruce  over  in
			   	8     	this,   	the  way  I'm  hearing  it  and  sitting  back  there  listening
			   	9     	to  it,   	it  sounds  like  we're  going  to  make  the  employees  of
			  	10     	this  county  bear  the  entire  brunt  of  all  the  financial
			  	11     	problems  --  or  the  hardships.    	I  won't  say  problems,   	'cause  I
			  	12     	think  the  county's  done  real  well.    	But  all  the  hard  times
			  	13     	right  now  is  going  to  be  borne  by  the  300  employees  or
			  	14     	whatever  it  is  the  county  has.    	They're  going  to  bear  it  all.
			  	15     	This  is  a  county -wide  problem.    	A  3 -cent  tax  increase  on  a
			  	16     	$150,000  home  in  this  county  is  how  much  a  year?
			  	17			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	About  $54.
			  	18			  	SHERIFF  HIERHOLZER:    	About  $54.    	Okay?    	A  3 -cent,
			  	19     	tax  increase.    	The  county  employees  are  already  giving  up  $55
			  	20     	per  employee  for  health  insurance  costs.
			  	21			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Per  month.
			  	22			  	SHERIFF  HIERHOLZER:    	Per  month,   	okay?    	That  54  is
			  	23     	per  year.    	Don't  put  the  burden  off  on  the  employees.    	This
			  	24     	county's  been  trying  and  trying  to  get  the  employees  back  up
			  	25     	to  where  we  should  be  equal  with  our  counterparts.    	You  can't
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			   	1     	do  it  and  keep  it  as  low  as  it's  been.    	There's  got  to  be
			   	2     	some  county -wide  responsibility,   	every  citizen,   	including  me.
			   	3     	My  house  is  paid  for;   	I  pay  for  the  taxes  too,   	okay?    	Every
			   	4     	one  of  us  has  to.    	It  is  hard  times,   	but  don't  make  the  300
			   	5     	employees  of  the  county  bear  the  entire  cost  of  it  in  a
			   	6     	county  with  50,000  population.    	For  political  reasons,   	for
			   	7     	savvy  or  whatever  it  takes  --   	I'm  an  elected  official  too;   	I
			   	8     	can  be  voted  out  of  office  just  as  quick  as  others.    	But  I
			   	9     	take  pride  in  what  our  employees  provide  the  citizens  of  this
			  	10     	county.    	And  me,   	as  a  taxpayer,   	would  pay  that  $54   	a  year  in
			  	11     	a  heartbeat  compared  to  losing  an  employee  or  hurting  our
			  	12     	employees  by  saying,   	"Sorry,   	your  counterparts  are  always
			  	13     	going  to  make  more  than  you  do,   	regardless  if  you  have  more
			  	14     	responsibilities  and  do  more  of  a  job."    	Okay?    	I  don't  think
			  	15     	it's  right  for  the  employees  to  bear  all  that.    	I  think  all
			  	16     	citizens  of  this  county  need  to  bear  a  part  of  that.    	That's
			  	17     	what  I  have  to  say.
			  	18			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Any  other  member  of  the  Court  have
			  	19     	any  comment?
			  	20			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	My  comment  is  --  two  things.
			  	21     	I  think,   	and  I  have  always  thought,   	that  it  needed  to  be',a
			  	22     	combination  of  reduction  and  things,   	and  willing  to  go  with  a
			  	23     	tax  increase  some.    	Now,   	when  you  --  when  you  talk  about  tax
			  	24     	increase  --  and  Rusty's  way  off  base,   	as  usual.    	The  --  when
			  	25     	you're  talking  about  it  needs  to  be  spread  out  amongst  40,000
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			   	1     	citizens,   	well,   	the  over -65  folks,   	taxes  are  frozen.    	They're
			   	2     	not  going  to  be  affected  in  any  way  with  a  tax  increase.    	You
			   	3     	have  a  small  group  of  younger  folks,   	and  a  lot  of  them,   	their
			   	4     	parents  have  to  have  landing  lights  so  they  can  find  the
			   	5     	house.    	They  don't  --  they're  not  going  to  pay  any  taxes.
			   	6     	So,   	the  group  that's  left  to  bear  the  tax  increase  is  us
			   	7     	middle  class  dudes,   	as  usual.    	And  so,   	with  that  in  mind,   	I
			   	8     	mean,   	that's  the  way  it  works,   	on  a  local  level,   	federal
			   	9     	level.    	And  really  not  complaining  about  that,   	but  I  think
			  	10     	that  we  just  need  to  keep  that  burden  as  low  as  possible.
			  	11			  	Now,   	I  still  think  --  you  know,   	I  don't  know  where
			  	12     	you're  going  with  this   	10  people  reduction  in  the  middle  of
			  	13     	the  year.    	I  won't  vote  for  anything  like  that  until  I  see
			  	14     	how  it's  going  to  work,   	how  it's  laid  out.    	But  just  saying
			  	15     	we're  going  to  --  January,   	we're  going  to  reduce  10,   	that's
			  	16     	not  good  enough.    	But  there's  lots  of  places  that  --   	I'm  with
			  	17     	Bruce;   	there's  lots  of  places  that  we  can  cut,   	and,   	you  know,
			  	18     	cut  some  employees.    	And  the  County- sponsored  list,   	there's
			  	19     	--  it's  a  drop  in  the  bucket;   	I  understand  that.    	But,   	again,
			  	20     	it  takes  drops  to  fill  up  a  bucket,   	and  every  little  bit
			  	21     	would  help.    	So,   	you  could  go  down  that  list  right  there  and
			  	22     	pick  up,   	I  don't  know,   	a  bunch  of  money.    	Start  with  the
			  	23     	economic  development;   	there's  25,000  bucks  right  there.    	But,
			  	24     	you  know,   	you  couple  that  --  you  have  some  reduction  in
			  	25     	staff.    	You  couple  that  with  reduction  in  these  funds  that
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																	     	27
			   	1     	are  --  are  luxury  items  to  us,   	and  a  small  tax  increase,   	and
			   	2     	I  think  we  get  there.
			   	3			  	But  I  --  you  know,   	three  cents  to  me  is  too  much.
			   	4     	You  know,   	and  I'll  try  to  end  this;   	I'll  try  to  get  more
			   	5     	specific.    	I  could  go  two  cents  tax  increase,   	because  of  the
			   	6     	reserve  issue  only.    	That's  --  all  this  other  stuff,   	salary
			   	7     	increase  and  all  that  stuff  is  --  is  not  as  important  as  the
			   	8     	long -term  life  of  this  county,   	and  that's  reserves.    	When  the
			   	9     	Auditor  walks  in  and  says  the  reserves  have  been  depleted,
			  	10     	that's  the  worst  news   	I've  had  in  years.    	I  think  this  is
			  	11     	probably  my  19th  budget  to  work  on  here,   	and  all  of  them  have
			  	12     	been  difficult,   	but  this  particular  one  that  we're  dealing
			  	13     	with  right  now  is  extraordinary.    	I  mean,   	times  are  --  I
			  	14     	don't  ever  recall  in  my  lifetime  things  being  as  bad  as  they
			  	15     	are.    	And  a  financial  adviser  friend  of  mine  says  that  it's
			  	16     	going  to  have  --  the  double -dip  thing  that  everybody's
			  	17     	talking  about  is  for  sure;   	that  next  year  it's  going  to  ',get
			  	18     	even  worse.
			  	19			  	So,   	in  my  mind  --  you  know,   	and  I  tend  to  agree
			  	20     	with  that.    	Watching  the  trend,   	I  tend  to  agree  with  that,
			  	21     	that  it's  going  to  go  down  some  more.    	And  so,   	in  my  mind,   	I
			  	22     	would  think  that  we  would  consider  that,   	that  it's  going  to
			  	23     	get  worse,   	the  trend,   	that  it's  going  to  go  down  --  the
			  	24     	economy's  going  to  go  down  another  notch  or  two,   	and,   	you
			  	25     	know,   	we  would  prepare  --  or  start  our  preparation  for  that.
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			   	1     	And  that's   	kind  of  it.
			   	2			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	I  could  get  very  close  to  where
			   	3     	Commissioner  Baldwin  is,   	with  no  COLA  and  a  two -cent  tax
			   	4     	increase,   	and  they're  pretty  close  to  being  the  same.    	Might
			   	5     	need  to  be  a  little  bit  more  than  two.    	Actually,   	you're
			   	6     	talking  --  the  Judge's  recommendation  is  two  point  --  or  3.6,
			   	7     	in  reality,   	'cause  of  lateral  roads.
			   	8			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Mm -hmm.
			   	9			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	I  probably  would  be  more
			  	10     	inclined  to  go  2.5,   	maybe;   	.05  for  lateral  roads  and  2   	for
			  	11     	the  county,   	and  no  COLA.    	1  think  that  the  --  you  know  -r
			  	12			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	How  much  COLA?
			  	13			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	2  percent  --   	I  mean,   	no  COLA.
			  	14     	Get  rid  of  the  COLA.    	I  think  that  that's  a  --  you  know, '
			  	15     	don't  like  that  option,   	but  I  don't  like  doing  a  tax  increase
			  	16     	either.    	The  only  other  way  I   	see  you  can  get  there  is
			  	17     	through  an  increased  reduction,   	to  go  from  over  --  from  ',1O.to
			  	18     	more  like  30,   	or  20,   	somewhere  in  there.    	Those  are  the  only
			  	19     	way  the  numbers  make  sense.    	I  don't  have  a  problem  with
			  	20     	looking  at  the  County- sponsored  and  cutting  some  there.    	Some
			  	21     	of  them,   	I  think  we  have  to  look  at  our  contractual
			  	22     	obligations,   	and  I  think  it  may  be  a  cut  that  has  to  come
			  	23     	next  year  with  people  being  put  on  notice.    	That's  just,  I
			  	24     	think  --
			  	25			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	Yeah,   	I  think  it's  too  late
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																	     	29
			   	1     	to  --   	I  guess,   	no,   	it's  not  too  late.
			   	2			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	You  can  do  it.
			   	3			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	You  can  do  it,   	but  it's  not
			   	4     	really  fair  to  do  it  that  way,   	especially  the  fire  truck
			   	5     	thing  with  the  city.
			   	6			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	I  think  we  look  at  those.    	But
			   	7     	I  just  look  at  how  --  I  look  at  a  number  we  have  to  get  to,
			   	8     	and  we  really  have  three  pieces.    	We  have  COLA,   	we  have  total
			   	9     	number  of  employees,   	and  we  have  tax  increase.    	Those  are  the
			  	10     	--  you  have  to  juggle  those  to  make  --  to  get  where  we  need
			  	11     	to  go.
			  	12			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	It's  a  combination  of  all
			  	13     	that.
			  	14			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	One  option  that  might  be
			  	15     	available,   	at  least  for  consideration,   	would  be  to  defer  the
			  	16     	COLA  to  mid  --  mid - budget  year,   	and  then  look  at  the  2  cents.
			  	17			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	I  think  it  didn't  work  real
			  	18     	well  with  deferring  the  COLA  last  time,   	because  then  it  ',hits
			  	19     	really  hard  the  following  year,   	because  you  don't  budget   	for
			  	20     	it,   	and  then  it  makes  you  have  a  bigger  difference.    	So,   	I
			  	21     	mean,   	rather  than  that,   	I'd  rather  go  with  a  --
			  	22			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	Either  do  it  or  don't  do  it.
			  	23			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	Do  a  littler  COLA  all  year  --
			  	24     	or  smaller.    	But  --
			  	25			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	What's  the  value  of  the
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																	     	30
			   	1     	COLA,   	Judge?
			   	2			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	323.
			   	3			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	323.
			   	4			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	323?
			   	5			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	Yes.
			   	6			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	It's  about  a  cent,   	correct?
			   	7			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Little  over.
			   	8			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	Little  over  a  cent.
			   	9			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	I  think  279  --  279,000   	ils  a
			  	10     	cent,   	last   	I  heard,   	unless  it's  changed  any.
			  	11			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	290.
			  	12			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	Oh,   	it's  gone  to  290  now?
			  	13     	You  never  know  from  one  meeting  to  the  next;   	the  Auditor',
			  	14     	changes  the  numbers.
			  	15			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	But,   	I  mean,   	I  think  --  I',mean,
			  	16     	this  isn't  an  action  item  day,   	so  I  don't  think  we  can  do
			  	17     	anything.    	Correct?
			  	18			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	That's  correct.
			  	19			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	And  I  do  appreciate  the  Judge
			  	20     	putting  everything  in  a  budget  and  filing  it,   	and  --  you
			  	21     	know,   	what  he  did.    	I  mean,   	I  think  it  gives  us  a  point --  he
			  	22     	took  into  account  a  lot  of  what  I  think  all  of  us  have
			  	23     	individually  brought  up  at  meetings,   	brought  in  what  he
			  	24     	thought  individually,   	and  now  it's  our  job  to  accept  it  or
			  	25     	whittle  it.
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																	     	31
			   	1			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	I'd  like  to  agree  with  that,
			   	2     	Judge.    	I  appreciate  you  doing  your  job.    	That's  your  job.
			   	3			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	That's  what  the  statute  says.
			   	4			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Absolutely.    	And  I
			   	5     	appreciate  you  doing  that.    	And  it's  like  --  I   	know  it
			   	6     	appears  that  we  stumble  around  all  the  time,   	and  you  get  all
			   	7     	the  glory  by  reaching  out  there  and  grabbing  it  and  doing  it.
			   	8			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	I  see.    	Is  that  tantamount  to  saying
			   	9     	I'm  the  guy  that  gets  to  stick  my  neck  out  first?
			  	10			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	Sort  of,   	yeah.
			  	11			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	No,   	it's  normally  last.
			  	12			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	I  can  --
			  	13			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	Normally  last.
			  	14			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	It's   	last.    	When  there's  a
			  	15     	split,   	that's  when  you  stick  your  neck  out.
			  	16			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Yeah,   	but  the  budget's  a
			  	17     	little  different  animal,   	I  think.
			  	18			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Any  more  --  any  more  comments  from
			  	19     	any  members  of  the  Court?
			  	20			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Other  than  I   	see  the  fire
			  	21     	truck  folk  back  there.
			  	22			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	They  got  what  they  wanted,
			  	23     	didn't  they?
			  	24			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Yeah.    	I  haven't  talked  to
			  	25     	them;   	I  don't  know  what  they  want.    	They've  been  kind  of
				   	6 -31 -10   	bwk
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			   	1     	hanging  around  here  like  buzzards,   	you  know.    	They've  kind  of
			   	2     	been  hanging  around  here  for  a  few  days.    	But   	I  just  wanted
			   	3     	to  say  that  we  did  not  take  the  fire  truck  out.    	Not  because
			   	4     	we  like  you,   	or  we  like  each  other.    	It's  because  that  we
			   	5     	care  for  the  citizens  out  in  the  county,   	and  y'all  provide  a
			   	6     	fantastic  service.    	Costs  too  much,   	but  it's  a  fantastic
			   	7     	service.
			   	8			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	But  it's  more  service  than  we
			   	9     	thought  we  were  getting.
			  	10			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Absolutely.
			  	11			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	The  service  level  has  gone  up
			  	12     	since  we  negotiated  it.
			  	13			  	COMMISSIONER  LETZ:    	And  we  appreciate  that.
			  	14			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Well,   	you  know,   	all  --
				   	along,   	I  have  --  I  have  known  that  these  guys  --  they're
			  	16     	really  not  interested  in  where  the  city  limit  line  is.    	They
			  	17     	couldn't  care  less  about  that.    	What  they  care  about  and  what
			  	18     	they've  trained  to  do  is  to  save  life  and  property,   	and
			  	19     	that's  what  they  do.    	When  the  fire  chief  stood  up  here  and
			  	20     	told  that  story  about  the  22  men  and  the  three  pumpers  and
			  	21     	the  --  all  that  stuff,   	that's  --  you  know,   	if  they  were
			  	22     	called  on  to  do  that  today,   	they  would  do  it.    	And  they  don't
			  	23     	say,   	"Okay,   	now  where's  the  city  limits  here?    	We  have  to
			  	24     	stop  here."    	Or,   	"Is  that  contract  in  place ?"    	That's
			  	25     	nonsense  with  them.    	They're  professional  people,   	and  they  go
				    	8 -31 -i0   	bwk
																	     	33
			   	1     	and  do  the  job  they're  asked  to  do.    	Simple  as  that.    	And
			   	2     	it's  always  been  that  way.
			   	3			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	Madam  Auditor,   	does  two
			   	4     	cents  and  no  COLA  get  us  where  we  need  to  go?
			   	5			  	(Ms.   	Hargis  shook  her  head  negatively.)
			   	6			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Are  you  kidding  me?    	You
			   	7     	asked  her  that  question?
			   	8			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	I   	just  did.
			   	9			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:    	Okay.    	Wonder  what  the,
			  	10     	answer  is  going  to  be.
			  	11			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	I   	know  what  her  answer  is.    	I
			  	12     	can  tell  you  the  answer  before  she  even  gets  up.
			  	13			  	COMMISSIONER  BALDWIN:  "No."
			  	14			  	COMMISSIONER  OEHLER:    	It's  a  short,   	two - letter
			  	15     	answer.
			  	16			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	I  mean,   	the  two  cents  would  --  would,
			  	17     	without  any  other  things,   	put  the  500.    	The  problem  is  that,
			  	18     	you  know,   	reducing  force  is  a  --  is  a  --  it's  going  to  take
			  	19     	time,   	and  I  don't  think  it's  going  to  necessarily  achieve
			  	20     	what  you  expect  it  to  achieve.    	Because  we  tried  to  put  some
			  	21     	numbers  to  --  to  different  jobs,   	and  it's  going  to  take  more
			  	22     	people  than  you  think  to  raise  $250,000,   	because  we  don't  pay
			  	23     	that  well,   	so  it's  going  to  take  a  whole  lot  of  folks.    	You
			  	24     	know,   	as  you  reduce  the  numbers  of  our  staff,   	you're  also
			  	25     	reducing  the  cost  of  your  health  insurance,   	so  you  have  to
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																	     	34
			   	1     	take  that  into  consideration  as  well,   	because  our  premium  is
			   	2     	what  it  is.    	If  you  take  10  people  off  or  you  take  20  people
			   	3     	off  the  roll  that  are  not  going  to  be  responsible  for  either
			   	4     	.paying  the  dependent  coverage  or  the  $55  coverage,   	we're
			   	5     	still  going  to  pay  the  $8,348  per  person,   	because  that's  what
			   	6     	the  premium's  going  to  be.
			   	7			  	So,   	those  are  things  that  you  need  to  consider.
			   	8     	Just  because  you  pull  from  one  hand  doesn't  mean  it's  going
			   	9     	to  necessarily  offset  on  the  other  hand.    	It's  not  a  direct
			  	10     	correlation  between  staff  and  cost,   	because  our  insurance
			  	11     	premium  is  going  to  be  based  on  what  we've  spent  this  year.
			  	12     	And  there  is  a  number  that  the  insurance  industry  uses  for
			  	13     	small  groups  and  large  groups,   	and  --  and  I  think  that
			  	14     	Ms.   	Hyde  will  back  me  up  on  this.    	It's  250  employees,   	slo  if
			  	15     	we  get  past  that,   	then  our  premium  actually  goes  up,   	just
			  	16     	because  we  have  a  smaller  group.    	So,   	there  are  a  lot  of
			  	17     	variables  out  here  that  you  need  to  think  about.    	Do  I  want
			  	18     	two  cents,   	and  would  it  be  enough?    	It  would  add  some.    	The
			  	19     	three  cents  gives  me  the  bigger  barrier  that  I  need  for  the
			  	20     	fund  balance.    	If  you  take  away  the  COLA,   	you  take  away  the
			  	21     	other,   	I  still  need  a  million  dollars.    	I've  got  to  have  it,
			  	22     	and  I  can't  wait  until  January,   	because  I  don't  have  the
			  	23     	money  in  the  bank.
			  	24			  	And  we  checked  to  see  how  the  tax  money  comes  in,
			  	25     	so  we  do  get  a  substantial  amount  of  it  in  in  November.    	I
				   	8 -31 -10   	bwk
																	     	35
			   	1     	can  make  one  month.    	But  when  --  even  if  you  decrease  my
			   	2     	payroll  by  $300,000  a  month,   	I  got  a  million - dollar  payroll
			   	3     	then.    	I  got  a  million  dollars  worth  of  disbursements.
			   	4     	That's  $2  million.    	I  only  have  $2  million;   	I'm  done.    	And
			   	5     	you  can't  lay  off  people  fast  enough  to  get  me  that  $250.,000.
			   	6     	So,   	it's  not  a  matter  of  --  when  you  combine  the  $5  million
			   	7     	that  we've  lost   	from  the  freeze  and  the  revenue  reductions
			   	8     	that  we've  seen  over  the  last  three  years,   	it's  --  it's  '',a
			   	9     	bomb,   	and  it's  just  --  it's  just  totally  sucked  the  reserve
			  	10     	down.    	And  I've  looked  for  --  the  first  year  I  was  here,':  I
			  	11     	hadn't  been  here  four  weeks  and  I  suggested  a  capital
			  	12     	improvement  project  to  you  guys  in  the  way  of  tax
			  	13     	anticipation  notes,   	so  we  avoided  it  that  year.    	Last  year,
			  	14     	we  put  together  a  bond  issue.    	That  has  taken  us  into  buying
			  	15     	practically  everything  that  we  needed,   	and  we  have  maneuvered
			  	16     	that  and  bought  even  more  stuff  with  it  than  we  thought  we
			  	17     	could.    	We've  taken  every  dollar  that  we  knew  how  to  --  to
			  	18     	work,   	and  we've  made  it  into  two  dollars.
			  	19			  	Now  I'm  to  the  point  where  I'm  not  getting  a  dollar
			  	20     	in,   	so  I  can't  make  three  dollars  out  of  it,   	you  know?    	And
			  	21     	we've  got  to  pump  up  the  reserve  regardless.    	Buster's  making
			  	22     	a  great  point;   	next  year's  going  to  be  worse.    	We're  going  to
			  	23     	hit  them  again?    	I  mean,   	they're  not  going  to  be  happy.   	They
			  	24     	would  rather  have  us  do  it  in  a  one -time  deal  than  to  keep
			  	25     	doing  it.    	Can  I  guarantee  that  the  three  cents  will  be
				   	8 -31 -10   	bwk
																	     	36
			   	1     	enough  for  next  year?    	No.    	But  I  think  within  this  12 -month
			   	2     	time  frame,   	we  can  come  up  with  enough  other  options.    	But
			   	3     	we're  down  to  the  bare  minimum  as  far  as  supplies  and  all  the
			   	4     	normal  stuff  that  we  have.    	There  are  costs  we  can't  do
			   	5     	anything  about.    	The  utility  costs  are  increasing.    	You  could
			   	6     	look  at  those  over  the  last  five  years.    	We  all  know  that  in
			   	7     	our  own  homes.    	The  supply  costs  --  you  know,   	we  call  out  for
			   	8     	paper,   	and  we  try  to  buy  it  --  this  last  time  we  bought  it
			   	9     	because  we  knew  it  was  going  to  go  up  on  September  1.    	We  got
			  	10     	a  whole  warehouse  down  there  full  of  it  so  we  could  save  $5  a
			  	11     	box.
			  	12			  	There  are  other  things  we  could  do,   	but  right  now,
			  	13     	we  are  short.    	And  the  only  --  you  know,   	and  I  can't  wait  for
			  	14     	you  to  lay  off  30  people.    	And  if  you  add  up,   	which  I  did,
			  	15     	just  to  see,   	we  don't  even  have  30  people  on  this  floor,  if
			  	16     	you  don't  count  y'all.    	We  have  13  in  the  clerk's  office  --
			  	17     	in  the  Tax  Office.    	We  have,13  in  the  County  Clerk's  office.
			  	18     	We  got  two  there.    	You  know,   	I  don't  think  there's  30  on  this
			  	19     	floor.    	And  you  need  to  lay  off  20.    	Downstairs,   	I  don't
			  	20     	think  you  have  more  than  30.    	So,   	I  think  we  got  50  in  this
			  	21     	building.    	Now,   	then  you  start  going  out  to  the  Sheriff' :s
			  	22     	Department,   	and  where  do  you  lay  off  out  there?    	We  have  been
			  	23     	pretty  full  in  the  jail.    	So,   	it's  not  like  we're  running  on
			  	24     	a  full  --  full  crew  anywhere  we're  looking.    	So  even  if  we
			  	25     	did  cut  administratively,   	we  are  going  to  have  to  cut
				   	8 -31 -10   	bwk
			   	1     	services,   	and  we  are  going  to  have  to  --  to  cut  down  on  what
			   	2     	we  give  to  the  general  public.    	But  there's  some  things  that
			   	3     	we  can't  out  down.    	There  are  statutes  out  there  behind
			   	4     	practically  everything  we're  doing.
			   	5			  	And,   	you  know,   	if  they  wait  in  line,   	they  wait  in
			   	6     	line,   	just  like  Buster  said,   	and  I  don't  think  any  of  us  have
			   	7     	a  problem  with  that.    	The  problem  is,   	how  many  lines  can  we
			   	8     	have?    	And  how  can  we  get  --  and  the  other  --  if  we  have,  too
			   	9     	many  lines,   	then  we  don't  get  the  money  in  the  bank.    	If  we
			  	10     	don't  get  the  money  in  the  bank,   	we  don't  have  the  revenue  in
			  	11     	the  line  items.    	So,   	it's  kind  of  a  catch -22.    	But  you  still
			  	12     	have  to  keep  in  mind  the  correlation  of  laying  off  people  is
			  	13     	not  a  direct  source  of  revenue,   	and  it  is  not  necessarily
			  	14     	going  to  come  in  at  the  rate  that  you  think  it  is.    	Some'
			  	15     	these  folks  that  you  may  decide  --  or  they  may  decide  td ,
			  	16     	quit,   	have  --  may  have  four  weeks  vacation.    	They  may  hayve'
			  	17     	six  weeks.    	You  know,   	they've  built  up  time,   	and  by  the  time
			  	18     	we  pay  them  out,   	it's  not  going  to  be  that.    	So,   	I  mean,
			  	19     	we've  kind  of  looked  at  some  of  these  folks.
			  	20			  	And  that's  the  other  thing.    	We  got  two  people
			  	21     	retiring  right  now.    	They  are  getting  more  than  just  their
			  	22     	last  paycheck,   	because  they  have  time  accumulated.    	So,   	there
			  	23     	are  other  variables  out  there  that  you  need  to  think  about.
			  	24     	We  can  come  up  with  and  show  you  how  that  might  work,   	but
			  	25     	most  people  who  retire  have  another  30  days  coming.    	So,   	you
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																	     	38
			   	1     	know,   	it's  not  just,   	"Here's  your  paycheck,"  and  it's  done.
			   	2     	And  then  what  happens  on  January  1  when  we  do  the  new
			   	3     	insurance  premium,   	and  we  still  owe  2  million,   	2?    	And
			   	4     	instead  of  274  people,   	we  have  250  people,   	and  the  insurance
			   	5     	carrier  says,   	"You  still  have  to  pay  2  million,   	2."    	So,
			   	6     	unfortunately,   	the  --  this  big  variable  sits  out  there  over
			   	7     	our  heads,   	and  it's  an  unknown.    	My  biggest  concern  with  it
			   	8     	is  not  even  the  reducing  of  employees  and  the  number  that  we
			   	9     	might  have  to  pay,   	but  what'if  the  premium  is  more?    	And  we
			  	10     	know  that's  a  high  possibility.
			  	11			  	So,   	I  don't  like  proposing  a  tax  increase  either,
			  	12     	because  I'm  sure  I've  got  targets  on  all  sides  of  me.    	But  at
			  	13     	the  same  token,   	we  can't  allow  our  fund  balance  to  go  down  to
			  	14     	where  we  have  to  borrow  money.    	And  there  are  some  counties
			  	15     	out  there  today  that  are  --  that  are  on  my  listsery  saying,
			  	16     	"How  do  I  borrow,   	and  what  kind  of  rate  am  I  going  to  be
			  	17     	paying ?"    	Well,   	you're  going  to  pay  premium;   	instead  of
			  	18     	paying  2.29,   	I'm  going  to  pay  8  percent,   	and  I'm  going  to
			  	19     	have  to  see  --  and  local  banks  can  only  loan  us  a  certain
			  	20     	amount  of  money.    	So  --  and  you  can't  use  tax  dollars  to  pay
			  	21     	for  short -term  money;   	it  has  to  be  revenue.    	So,   	we  --  we
			  	22     	need  to  think  about  all  those  things.    	Unfortunately  - -,and
			  	23     	if  I  could  just  say  that  the  other  thing  --  we  were  looking
			  	24     	at  some  other  variables  that  have  come  up.
			  	25			  	The  Judge  said  he  didn't  want  to  go  into  it,   	but
				    	8 -31 -10   	bwk
																	     	39.
			   	1     	like  Road  and  Bridge.    	Road  and  Bridge  currently  gets  money
			   	2     	from  the  Motor  Vehicle  Department.    	By  2015  --  right  now
			   	3     	they're  getting  400  --  almost  $500,000.    	By  2015,   	that  will
			   	4     	have  totally  gone  away,   	because  that's  the  new  law.    	They  get
			   	5     	a  percentage,   	and  they  set  that  up  in  2005,   	and  it  --  each
			   	6     	year  they  get  a  percent  less.    	Next  year  it  will  be  a  percent
			   	7     	less,   	until  they  get  nothing.    	Then  we're  going  to  have  to
			   	8     	either  prop  them  up  in  the  general  fund,   	or  you're  going  to
			   	9     	have  to  increases  taxes  there.    	So,   	that's  something  else  to
			  	10     	think  about.    	And,   	you  know,   	there  are  --  the  indigent  health
			  	11     	care,   	we  used  all  the  fund  balance  there;   	we're  going  to
			  	12     	to  give  them  money  back  next  year.    	So,   	there  --  we  need  to
			  	13     	look  at  the  overall  picture,   	not  just  the  general  fund
			  	14     	picture.
			  	15			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Any  other  comments  from  members  of
			  	16     	the  Court?    	Any  --
			  	17			  	JUDGE  BILLEITER:    	Can  I  make  a  comment?
			  	18			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Yes,   	sir.
			  	19			  	JUDGE  BILLEITER:    	I'd  just  like  to  say  something
			  	20     	for  the  employees,   	I  believe.    	When  I  first  heard  that  y'all
			  	21     	were  going  to  have  to  cut  10  employees,   	through  attrition
			  	22     	hopefully,   	by  virtue  of  what  you're  proposing  here,   	I  don't
			  	23     	think  that  will  be  a  problem.    	Because  I  know  some  people,   	if
			  	24     	you  do  what  you're  talking  about,   	who  will  not  be  able  to
			  	25     	make  it.    	We  have  some  of  our  people  that  are  not  very  well
				   	8 -31 -10   	bwk
																	     	40
			   	1     	paid  to  start  with.    	Now  they're  going  to  be  having  an
			   	2     	increase  of  $55  a  month  on  their  insurance,   	plus  on  their
			   	3     	dependents.    	They're  not  going  to  be  able  to  make  it.
			   	4     	Hopefully  they  can  find  a  job  somewhere  else  where  they  can
			   	5     	make  it.    	I   	know  of  at  least  one  person  that  has  already  told
			   	6     	me  --  and  it's  not  in  my  office,   	but  it's   	in  another  office.
			   	7     	They  will  --  they'll  no  longer  be  able  to  work.
			   	8			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	They  what?
			   	9			  	JUDGE  BILLEITER:    	They'll  no  longer  be  able  to  work
			  	10     	for  the  county.
			  	11			  	COMMISSIONER  WILLIAMS:    	I  see.
			  	12			  	JUDGE  BILLEITER:    	They  cannot  afford  to  work  for
			  	13     	the  county  any  longer.    	I'm  talking  about  employees,   	okay?    	I
			  	14     	don't  know  how  it'll  affect  my  clerk  in  particular.    	She's  a
			  	15     	single  mom,   	and  she  has  her  kids  on  her  insurance.    	She's  not
			  	16     	overpaid  now,   	and  what  y'all  are  proposing  is  going  to  -1-  is
			  	17     	going  to  cripple  her.    	Something  to  bear  in  mind.    	You're
			  	18     	talking  about  people.    	The  other  thing  is,   	if  you're  going  to
			  	19     	do  away  with  10  people,   	don't  leave  them  hanging  till  March.
			  	20     	At  least  tell  them  so  they  can  make  some  other  provision  to
			  	21     	try  to  find  employment.    	I   	know  a  lot  of  people  are
			  	22     	wondering,   	"Is   	it  going  to  be  me?    	Am  I  going  to  lose  my
			  	23     	job ?"    	And  you're  going  to  keep  them  like  that  until  Match?
			  	24     	That's  not  even  fair.    	So,   	please,   	if  you  are  going  to  cut
			  	25     	them,   	tell  them  so  they  can  make  some  preparations  and  find
				    	8 -31 -10   	bwk
																	     	41
			   	1     	another  job,   	hopefully.    	Thank  you.
			   	2			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Anyone  else?    	Sheriff?
			   	3			  	MS.   	UECKER:    	I  have  one  more  thing.    	I  heard  on  the
			   	4     	news  the  other  day  --  and  the  Auditor  can  probably  verify
			   	5     	this,   	but  I  understand  that  when  the  Bush  tax  cuts  expire,   	it
			   	6     	will  take  another  --  the  average,   	$100  a  month,   	out  of  the  --
			   	7     	the  average  paycheck.
			   	8			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	It's  going  from  a  10  percent  tax  to  a
			   	9     	15  percent,   	so  the  lower  --  the  lower  level  --
			  	10			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Withholding  rates  are  going  up.'
			  	11			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	Withholding  rates  are  going  up.
			  	12			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	That's  true.    	January  1.
			  	13			  	MS.   	HARGIS:    	There  was  an  article  also  in  the' --
			  	14     	the  San  Antonio  paper  about  the  economy,   	and  it  said  that,
			  	15     	you  know,   	people  without  jobs  are  not  buying  because  they
			  	16     	don't  have  jobs.    	The  economy  here  is  fed  by  three  --  whether
			  	17     	we  like  it  or  not,   	we  are  one  of  the  larger  employers  in  this
			  	18     	town,   	between  the  hospital,   	the  city,   	and  ourselves.    	When  we
			  	19     	--  when  we  reduce,   	then  those  people  can't  buy.    	When  those
			  	20     	people  can't  buy,   	it's  a  direct  correlation  between  the
			  	21     	income  we  receive  and  what  they  can  --  because  the  more
				   	people  without  jobs  in  this  community,   	the  less  they  buy,   	the
			  	23     	less  revenue  that  we  receive  from  sales  tax,   	the  less  revenue
			  	24     	that  the  city  receives  from  sales  tax.    	You  know,   	we  --  we
			  	25     	are  a  small  force  compared  to  our  counterparts.    	And  --  and
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			   	1     	I'm  not  saying  that  we  can't  get  smaller.    	I  don't  know
			   	2     	exactly  where  that's  going  to  be.    	I  haven't  --  but  I  just
			   	3     	think  that  we  contribute  to  this  community  by  having  these.
			   	4     	employees.    	We  contribute  to  the  work  force,   	so  our  reduction
			   	5     	is  going  to  make  a  large  effect  on  a  lot  of  families;   	not
			   	6     	just  10  families,   	but  it  could  be  a  lot  of  effect  on  a  lot  of
			   	7     	people.    	So,   	that's  something  to  consider.
			   	8			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Sheriff?
			   	9			  	SHERIFF  HIERHOLZER:    	When  it  comes  to  employee
			  	10     	reduction,   	the  one  thing  I  think  the  Court  --  and  it's  been
			  	11     	brought  up  once  or  twice.    	It's  not  like  Kerr  County  has  an
			  	12     	excess  number  of  employees.    	If  you  look,   	the  County  Clerk's
			  	13     	office  has  dropped  the  number  of  employees  they've  had  fiver
			  	14     	the  last  several  years,   	automatically.    	If  you  also  look
			  	15     	since   	'06 -'07  budget  year,   	the  Sheriff's  Office  has  three
			  	16     	less  employees  now  than  we  had  in   	'06 -'07.    	It's  not  like
			  	17     	county  employees  --  and  the  employment  has  grown  already.
			  	18     	When  you  start  cutting  back  employees   	from  that  point,   	you're
			  	19     	cutting  back  from  what  we  had  in   	'06 -'07.    	In  reality,   	I
			  	20     	mean,   	you  know,   	you're  going  back  20  years,   	not  just  five  or
			  	21     	six,   	when  you  drop  the  levels.    	And  I  don't  think  that	 	it
			  	22     	would  be  extremely  hard,   	without  doing  what  Bruce  said,   	, other
			  	23     	than  cutting  some  major  services,   	to  cut  that  number  of
			  	24     	employees  to  make  up  that  kind  of  funds.
			  	25			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Any  other  comments?    	Did  you  have  a
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			   	1     	comment,   	Ms.   	Hyde?
			   	2			  	MS.   	HYDE:    	One  other  thing  that  y'all  might  want  to
			   	3     	take  into  consideration.    	I've  listened  to  the  Auditor  and
			   	4     	the  Sheriff  and  several  folks.    	If  you  do  a  reduction  in
			   	5     	force,   	you  also  need  to  look  at  your  unemployment  cost.    	Your
			   	6     	unemployment  costs  have  dropped  dramatically  in  the  last
			   	7     	three  years,   	along  with  your  workers  comp.    	And  I'll  get  to
			   	8     	workers  comp  in  just  a  second.    	But  your  unemployment  rate
			   	9     	will  increase,   	and  we  will  pay  those  people  out  in
			  	10     	unemployment.    	So,   	that's  going  to  cost.    	In  addition  to
			  	11     	that,   	if  we  continue  to  reduce  in  force,   	I   	just  ask  that,
			  	12     	there  be  some  consideration  --  your  workers  comp  has
			  	13     	decreased  over  24  cent  on  the  dollar  in  the  last  three  years.
			  	14     	When  I  came  here,   	you  were  at  40  cent.    	You're  down  to  17.
			  	15     	If  you  continue  to  cut  people,   	you're  going  to  increase  your
			  	16     	risk  of  workers  comp;   	you're  going  to  increase  your  accident
			  	17     	picture.    	We  see  it  any  time  you  start  cutting  people,
			  	18     	especially  in  service  positions,   	which  we  have  a  lot  of.
			  	19			  	So,   	I'm  going  to  piggy -back  a  little  bit  on  what
			  	20     	the  Sheriff  said.    	If  you  look  at  2006 -2007,   	we  have
			  	21     	increased  where?    	We  haven't  increased  overall.    	You  start
			  	22     	looking  at  --  we've  been  moving  people  around.    	We've  been
			  	23     	moving  them  to  the  positions  that  are  needed.    	The  County
			  	24     	Clerk  has  gone  down.    	The  Treasurer  had  --  had  gone  down.
			  	25     	But  you  offset  it  to  put  it  where  it  was  needed.    	When  you
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			   	1     	talk  about  attrition  and  you  look  at  the  retirement  picture,
			   	2     	we  have  14  pages  of  retirees  that  could  retire.    	I  pulled  it
			   	3     	today  again  to  make  sure,   	because  it  changes  every  single  day
			   	4     	based  upon  when  you  guys,   	you  know,   	started  with  the  county
			   	5     	and  when  you  can  retire.    	So,   	when  we  look  at  that  and  we
			   	6     	talk  about  a  reduction  in  force,   	and  we  look  at  attrition,
			   	7     	what  you  said  the  first  day  is  absolutely  true.    	You  can't
			   	8     	look  at  it  in  just  one  area.    	If  it's  all  retirees,   	that  can
			   	9     	hurt  us.    	If  it's  all  reduction  in  force  of  working  people,
			  	10     	that  can  hurt  us.    	If  --  if  it's  through  a  combination		and
			  	11     	we  look  at  a  trend.
			  	12			  	We  didn't  get  in  this  spot  this  year.    	I  think  that
			  	13     	all  five  of  y'all  would  agree  that  we  didn't  get  to  this.
			  	14     	point  in  one  year.    	So,   	if  we're  going  to  look  at  planning
			  	15     	and  trending,   	then  I  would  ask  that  if  you're  going  to  1',00k
			  	16     	at  a  reduction  in  force,   	you  do  the  same  type  of  thing
			  	17     	through  attrition,   	because  that's  the  least  hurtful  andl
			  	18     	best  way  to  turn  around  and  put  people  where  --  where  we  feel
			  	19     	that  they're  needed,   	and  they  --  they  need  to  be,   	so  that  we
			  	20     	don't  hurt  each  other.    	And  I  was  wrong;   	there's  more  than  --
			  	21     	than  25  people  that  could  retire.    	We  have  12  pages.    	Arid  of
			  	22     	the  12  pages,   	we  have  five  that  could  retire  as  of  2010.
			  	23     	That's  not  counting  1/1  of  2011.    	But  it  also  should  say
			  	24     	something  to  the  workforce  ethics  that  we  have.    	These  people
			  	25     	aren't  retiring;   	they're  staying  here,   	and  it's  not
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			   	1     	necessarily  because  we're  the  best  paid  folks   	in  the  county
			   	2     	or  we're  the  best  paid  around.    	Yes,   	we  like  living  here.    	We
			   	3     	like  the  way  it  is.    	But  you've  got  a  very  strong  work  ethic.
			   	4     	These  employees  will  bust  their  butts  for  every  one  of  you
			   	5     	and  every  one  of  the  public.    	They  show  it  every  day.    	So,   	I
			   	6     	ask  that  you  just  remember  that  as  well.
			   	7			  	JUDGE  TINLEY:    	Thank  you.    	Further  comments?    	We'll
			   	8     	be  adjourned.
			   	9			  	(Budget  workshop  adjourned  at  11:10  a.m.)
			  	10
			  	11
			  	12
			  	13     	STATE  OF  TEXAS
			  	14     	COUNTY  OF  KERR	  	1
			  	15			The  above  and  foregoing  is  a  true  and  complete
			  	16     	transcription  of  my  stenotype  notes  taken  in  my  capacity  as
			  	17     	official  reporter  for  the  Commissioners  Court  of  Kerr  County,
			  	18     	Texas,   	at  the  time  and  place  heretofore  set  forth.
			  	19			DATED at  Kerrville,   	Texas,   	this  1st  day  of  September,
			  	20     	2010.
			  	21
			  	22							 	JANNETT  PIEPER,   	Kerr  County  Clerk
			  	23						 	BY
										     	Kathy    	anik,   	Deputy  County  Clerk
			  	24							 	Certified  Shorthand  Reporter
			  	25
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