1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 10 Special Session 11 Monday, January 22, 2001 12 9:00 a.m. 13 Commissioners' Courtroom 14 Kerr County Courthouse 15 Kerrville, Texas 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 23 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 24 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 25 2 1 I N D E X January 22, 2001 PAGE 2 --- Commissioners' Comments 3 3 1.1 Pay Bills 9 4 1.2 Budget Amendments 11 1.3 Late Bills 15 5 1.4 Read and Approve Minutes 19 1.5 Read and Accept Monthly Reports 20 6 7 2.1 Interlocal Agreement with City of Kerrville to construct T-hangars at municipal airport; 8 process for transferring budgeted funds 20 2.2 Resolution approving grant application for 9 funding 216th Narcotics Task Force 27 2.3 Presentation by Charlie Digges/Lane Wolters 10 on matters pertaining to O.S.S.F. 29 2.4 Granting variance to O.S.S.F. licensing 11 requirements to Eddie & Joyce Sowell 57 2.5 Restoration of individual properties by 12 Wiedenfeld Water Works due to installation of new water pipelines 75 13 2.6 Reduction of fee for Rabies Vaccination Drive 85 2.10 Change 9/1 Custodian to 12/1 Utility Maintenance 14 for Sheriff's Department and Jail 86 2.11 Authorize Sheriff to organize committee to 15 prepare long-range master plan for KCSO 89 2.12 Authorize Sheriff to apply for Vest Partnership 16 Grant to purchase bulletproof vests 93 2.13 Authorize Sheriff to apply for AACOG grant 95 17 2.14 Authorize Sheriff to apply for Hal and Charlie Peterson Foundation grant 98 18 2.17 Approve order establishing Teen Curfew, set public hearing on same 105 19 2.15 Proposed revisions reflected in Change Order 7 148 2.16 Rehabilitating historic windows 155 20 2.7 Appoint replacement to AACOG Landfill Committee 164 2.8 Accept 25 park benches from Allied Advertising 21 in San Antonio for use in county parks 165 2.9 Approval of Cooperative Agreement between Kerr 22 County and Office of Attorney General 166 2.18 Amendment to County Attorney's budget to 23 increase Insurance Liability by $1,250 168 24 --- Adjourned 172 --- Reporter's certificate 172 25 3 1 On Monday, January 22, 2001, at 9 o'clock a.m., a special 2 session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good morning. It's 9 o'clock 8 on Monday morning, January 22nd. We will call to order this 9 special meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. 10 Commissioner Williams, I believe you have the honors this 11 morning. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Really? Please rise. 13 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. At this time, any 15 citizen wishing to address the Court on an item not listed 16 on the regular agenda may do so. Is there anyone who would 17 like to address the Court on an item not listed on the 18 regular agenda? Once again, if there's any citizen who 19 wishes to address the Court on an item not listed on the 20 regular agenda, they may do so at this time. Seeing none, 21 let's move to the Commissioners' comments. Let's start with 22 Commissioner Williams. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have any 24 comments this morning, Judge. Happy good morning Monday. 25 That's it. 4 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Letz? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd just like to thank 3 all of the volunteers at the Hill Country Junior District 4 Livestock Show Association and actual County employees that 5 spent many hours making another great district livestock 6 show. And, I think we had 2,550 entries, somewhere around 7 there. Good show. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much did they 9 raise at the auction? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They were off from last 11 year at one point during the -- about probably two-thirds of 12 the way through. Not substantially. Like, $5,000 or 13 $6,000, what I was told. I have not heard a final number. 14 There was just -- a couple of the people that have bought a 15 lot recently were not present, but we had -- luckily, to 16 take their place, it seemed like more businesses in the 17 community than usual were spending more money than they 18 usually do, so it probably balanced out about the same. 19 But, it was a -- it was a good sale. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I certainly echo the 21 thoughts about the great show, and it was very 22 well-attended. Gosh, it's just great to see the kids out 23 there every time you do that. It's inspiring. No other 24 comments, Judge. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Baldwin? 5 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. First of 2 all, I'd like to introduce our new Commissioners Court 3 clerk, Linda Kneese. She's new in the County Clerk's Office 4 and new to the Commissioners Court. We want to welcome you, 5 Linda, to our -- 6 MS. KNEESE: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We prefer your first 8 day of court includes buying lunch for the Commissioners 9 Court. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MS. KNEESE: I do work for the County. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then doughnuts, 13 doughnuts at every meeting from this point on, part of the 14 deal. And, gentlemen, as you know, I went last week to 15 Beaumont, Texas to -- for a planning meeting for our annual 16 conference of the South Texas Judges' and Commissioners' 17 Association. Normally, on those planning meetings for that 18 conference, we -- the board usually takes three trips into 19 the community. It takes three trips into the community 20 to -- to plan the whole conference. We went down there 21 and -- and just ran nonstop for two full days and completed 22 the entire thing in two full days. So, it was kind of a 23 whirlwind. I've got crawfish running out my ears, sick of 24 seafood at this moment, but tomorrow it will be over and 25 I'll be ready for some more. 6 1 But, out of that -- out of that group, I'm 2 happy to announce -- out of that meeting, I'm happy to 3 announce that two of our esteemed colleagues here at this 4 table will be part of the program down there. Commissioner 5 Letz will be a part of a panel -- a water panel with 6 T.N.R.C.C. and the Water Development Board, and Commissioner 7 Letz will be a 3-man -- part of a 3-man panel to talk about 8 the water issues of our great state. And, Larry down on the 9 other end of the table will talk about septic tanks. And, 10 Larry, I appreciate that very -- very much. Maybe you can 11 take the heat off of some of the rest of us. But -- but, 12 he -- he will -- he has one hour down there to talk about 13 the O.S.S.F. program in the state, so I couldn't think of a 14 better thing for him. That's just -- I know that everyone 15 at this table is very excited about that, and we'll be there 16 to -- be there to support you. That's all the comments I 17 have. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: When -- when is the 19 conference? What are the dates? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- the 19th of 21 July. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: June? July? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: July. 24 MS. SOVIL: 9th. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry, the 9th of 7 1 July. The -- at that time of the year, I understand that 2 the mosquitoes' wingspread doesn't get over 18 inches. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three days, the 9th to 4 the 12th, about? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, about. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Thank you. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I also want to give my thanks 8 to everybody who helped out with the Junior District 9 Livestock Show. It's a wonderful occasion, something that 10 the whole community can be proud of. I had the pleasure of 11 judging the heifer and steer competition, both the County 12 show Thursday morning and District show Friday morning, and 13 enjoyed watching the young people work with their animals, 14 particularly the little ones who have to hold the halter up 15 like this in order to get their -- their animal to raise its 16 head because they're substantially smaller than the animal 17 they're showing. I particularly was struck by the dichotomy 18 on Thursday when I was out there in the morning watching our 19 local people show their animals in the County show, and how 20 dedicated they were and how involved they were and how busy 21 they were, and then Thursday afternoon, I had the 22 responsibility of coming back and having juvenile court, and 23 sentenced one young man for indecency with a child. I sent 24 two young people to the Texas Youth Commission. So, I was 25 particularly struck by the difference between the kids I saw 8 1 Thursday morning and the kids I saw Thursday afternoon. If 2 we can find a way to get more of the kids Thursday afternoon 3 involved in the activities of Thursday morning, we might not 4 have to have a Thursday afternoon session. And, it's a 5 source of sadness to me that we have to have a Thursday 6 afternoon session, but it's a source of great pride that we 7 have the ability to do what we did Thursday morning, Friday 8 morning, and Saturday afternoon. 9 I also want to comment on the inaugural over 10 the weekend. I think we can all be proud of the fact that 11 we have a new president, a new president from Texas. New 12 president who knows where Kerrville is, and one that I think 13 we can call upon with our concerns, as we can any of our 14 elected officials. It was a glorious weekend for Texas and 15 for the nation, and I look forward to President -- it's 16 going to take me a long time to get over saying Governor 17 Bush -- President Bush moving forward with his agenda for 18 the benefit of all of us. As I was reflecting on that over 19 the weekend, I was struck by the fact that, you know, 20 President Bush is a man who is not defined by his office, 21 but has offered himself for office in order to test his 22 ideas for the benefit of all of us in the marketplace of 23 ideas in Congress. The man, in my estimation, would be just 24 as happy still being president of the Texas Rangers or 25 certainly Governor of Texas, as he is president, but he felt 9 1 the call to duty and he responded to the duty, and I think 2 we'll all be very pleased and gratified by the results. So, 3 our prayers and thoughts go with him for the next, 4 hopefully, eight years. 5 With that comment, let's turn to the business 6 at hand. We have some bills to pay, Mr. Auditor. Anybody 7 have any questions or comments regarding the bills? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move we pay the 9 bills. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a comment. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Moved by Commissioner 13 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that we pay the 14 bills as recommended. Commissioner Baldwin, you have a 15 question? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir -- I don't 17 have a question about these particular bills, but I have a 18 comment to make. I guess in the next cycle of bills -- we 19 pay approximately, I think, $680 a month to the City of 20 Kerrville for the First Responder Coordinator, and I've 21 always understood that that -- that money goes to his salary 22 because it's outside his city employment program, and it's 23 for the First Responder program that covers the county. 24 And, as you know, we've struggled in the last couple of 25 years with this position, and we filled it several months 10 1 ago, and it's now open again. There is no one in that 2 position, and I just -- but we continue sending that money 3 over there, even though there is not anyone in that position 4 that we pay. 5 And, I know that we've asked Tommy to phone 6 and talk with the City, and he has done that before, and 7 they give him some kind of reason. I don't recall what that 8 reason is, but I -- I tend to disagree with whatever the 9 reason was, because it's -- the reason we have that money 10 set up is to pay the salary to serve us, and I just have a 11 hard time for us to send money anywhere without getting 12 something in return. And, actually, I think if we dug long 13 and hard enough in the law, that we would find that we would 14 need to receive something in return, whether it be goods or 15 services. And, so, I just wanted to alert y'all that, in 16 the next cycle of bills, this $680 is going to show up, and 17 if there is not a person over there that's our employee 18 doing that job, I -- I'm going to throw a fit hissy about 19 paying that. So, I just wanted to alert you to it. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Fair enough. Anyone else 21 have any questions or comments? Tommy, on Page 1 under 22 Nondepartmental, we have a charge, $58.12 for clear report 23 covers. What is that for, under Nondepartmental? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: It's for the monthly reports 25 that my office sends out. 11 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. All right. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Those binders, is what they 3 are. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: That comes out of 5 Nondepartmental? 6 MR. TOMLINSON: I think that's what the bill 7 is. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm not sure, but I'll look. 10 Yes. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else? If not, we 12 have a motion and second. All in favor, raise your right 13 hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Budget 18 amendments. Budget Amendment Number 1 is for the Jail 19 Maintenance. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: We have a need to replace two 21 washing machines out at the jail. This is a request from 22 Glenn Holekamp to transfer a total of $632 from Jail Repairs 23 to Capital Outlay. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: This is a late bill; I need a 12 1 hand check for it. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 4 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 5 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 1 for Jail 6 Maintenance and approve a late check in the amount of $632 7 payable to Sears. Any questions or comments? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question. 9 We're talking about commercial washers? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: No, they're not. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon? 12 MR. TOMLINSON: No, they are not. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not talking about 14 commercial-type washers? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What they have found 17 over the years is that the commercial washers haven't been 18 lasting any longer than the regular washing machines. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second question. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So they can get them 21 half the price. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a second 23 question. At one point in time, we talked about the 24 potential of an interlocal agreement with the Veterans 25 Administration to use this humungous automated laundry they 13 1 have up on the hill there. Do we know what or if anything 2 ever came of that? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I've never heard 4 anything about that talk, but just in knowing how it 5 operates at the jail, that may be difficult to really do 6 accurately, because we wash so much out there on a daily 7 basis. And, we have trustees doing all the washing, so 8 we're not, you know, paying out a salary to do that or 9 anything else. Just economically, it's probably better to 10 continue like we are. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further comments? If 13 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Budget 18 Amendment Request Number 2 is for Juvenile Probation. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: This is a -- for the 20 replacement of a computer in the Juvenile Probation Office, 21 and it is a non-budgeted item for them, but -- so I'm 22 requesting a transfer of $869 from Capital Outlay, 23 Nondepartmental, to transfer that into Capital Outlay in the 24 Juvenile Probation budget. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 14 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 3 seconded by Commissioner Baldwin. Any further questions or 4 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 3, 9 Sheriff's Department. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: This is related to the 11 removal of our insurance with TAC. We needed $322 in the 12 Vehicle Insurance line item, transferring that $322 out of 13 the Building Insurance line item. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 17 Williams, second by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve 18 Budget Amendment Request Number 3 for the Sheriff's 19 Department. Any further questions or comments? If not, all 20 in favor, raise your right hands. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 4 25 relates to Juvenile Probation again. 15 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. This is also related 2 to the auto insurance deal renewal, and we have a need to 3 transfer $91 from Bonds in Juvenile Probation to Vehicle 4 Insurance. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 8 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve Budget 9 Amendment Request Number 4. Any further questions or 10 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Do we need 15 any further late bills? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: I have -- I have -- one 17 relates to an item that's on the agenda later. It's for 18 David Motley's -- the liability insurance. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's hold that until we take 20 up that agenda item. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. The next one is to the 22 Texas Police Association for $270. It's for training for 23 the Sheriff's Office. I need a -- this is a late bill that 24 we need a hand check for. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's budgeted? 16 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 3 MR. TOMLINSON: It's training. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 6 seconded by Commissioner Williams, that we approve a late 7 bill to the Texas Sheriffs Association in the amount of two 8 hundred -- 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Seventy dollars. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: $270? 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 13 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. The next one is to 19 Comfort Inn in Plano. It's for -- it's also for Sheriff's 20 Office and it's for some training for dispatchers, lodging 21 for that from 1/23 to 1/25. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: How much is it? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: $354. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 17 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 2 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we approve a late 3 bill to Comfort Inn in Plano, Texas in the amount of $354 4 for training. Any questions or comments? If not, all in 5 favor, raise your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. The next one is for 11 the jail, and it's for reimbursement to the Sheriff, $320. 12 It's for school expenses for two jailers in Pharr, Texas, 13 for $320. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 17 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that we authorize a late 18 bill in the amount of $320 to Sheriff Hierholzer for 19 training for jailers. Any questions or comments? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If I can comment on 21 that, it's kind of misstated there. It's actually two 22 dispatchers, but when we separated out dispatcher salaries 23 and jail salaries, we left everything else except the 24 salaries the same, and we have two dispatchers that have to 25 be certified by the State to run the TLETS machine, and 18 1 that's what that's for. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Any further questions 3 or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: The next one is to the 9 Country Hearth Inns and Suites, and it's for lodging for 10 those two dispatchers for $278.20. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: $278.20? 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 16 seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court approve a 17 late bill in the amount of $278.20 to the Country Hearth 18 Suites for lodging for training. Any further questions or 19 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: The last one is reimbursement 25 to the Sheriff for $220. It's for the lodging for -- for 19 1 the dispatcher that's -- for his training in -- in Plano. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 5 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that we approve a 6 late bill in the amount of $220 payable to Sheriff 7 Hierholzer for dispatcher training lodging. Any questions 8 or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't know if I mentioned 14 this before we started, that all these were -- these were 15 late bills. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Right. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: We need hand checks. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Right. They -- 19 MR. TOMLINSON: I wanted to make sure. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. At this time, I would 21 entertain a motion to waive reading and approve the minutes 22 of the Friday, December 22nd, and Monday, December 11th 23 meetings. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 2 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that the Court waive 3 reading and approve the minutes of the Monday, December 4 11th, Year 2000 regular session, and the Friday, 5 December 22nd, Year 2000 special session. Any questions or 6 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, I'd entertain a 11 motion to approve and accept the monthly reports as 12 presented. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 17 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 18 approve and accept the monthly reports as presented. Any 19 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 20 right hands. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item of 25 business is consideration agenda. Item Number 1a, consider 21 1 and discuss an interlocal agreement between Kerr County and 2 the City of Kerrville regarding construction of T-hangars 3 and authorize County Judge to sign same. Commissioner 4 Griffin. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. As the Court 6 will recall, we have budgeted for the construction of our -- 7 our -- the County portion of the construction costs on these 8 T-hangars, which will be revenue producers for the -- for 9 the airport. We're now down to the nitty-gritty of getting 10 that contract finalized. Megan will catch us up on that, 11 and we now need to come up with a method and a -- and a 12 policy and an agreement on how we're going to actually 13 transfer those funds to the City as the need arises during 14 the execution of the contract. So, I'd like to introduce 15 Megan Caffall, City of Kerrville, and she'll give us a quick 16 rundown on that. And, I suppose you've got a document that 17 you can leave with us for the Judge to sign? 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 MS. CAFFALL: Yes, sir. It's good to be here 20 today. It's almost like we've been there and back. We 21 received eight bids on the T-hangars. They ranged from a 22 low bid of $345,961 to $732 -- or $732,183, which is a 23 pretty good spread. We were real pleased with the bids, and 24 low bidder was by MPB, Inc., which is Mike Butler, a local 25 contractor here in town. Mike is -- has done quite a bit of 22 1 construction at the airport, knows the airport, and I feel 2 real good about their bid. The agreement between the City 3 and County will let us go ahead and execute the contract and 4 award the bid. The nice thing about this interlocal is that 5 we will only -- as the bills are submitted, we will ask the 6 Court for half of whatever is approved by the City, 7 according to the contract. 8 The contract amount of $345,000 includes 9 $33,814 for site work, and that's money that's already 10 budgeted in the airport budget. That's our Ramp project for 11 this year, so that falls outside of the agreement between 12 the City and County for $320,000. The bid for the buildings 13 and foundations was $312,147, and the City had already spent 14 $5,602.50 for engineering and -- and geotechnical services. 15 That's a total of $317,749.50. So, if we're real lucky, 16 that's all we'll have to spend, but the nice thing about 17 this agreement is that we just split the expenses as they 18 occur and we won't have to pay in -- or y'all won't be 19 paying money ahead of time that we may not even spend. 20 So, I guess if y'all have any questions? 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: The understanding -- the 22 agreement says that when y'all get a bill, you approve it, 23 you send it to us, and we forward to you half of the amount 24 that you all have approved, up to the maximum amount of 25 $160,000; is that correct? 23 1 MS. CAFFALL: Correct. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, we're just acting as a 3 funder for the draws that the City approves on its project. 4 MS. CAFFALL: That's correct. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Fifty percent funder. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah, 50 percent funder, up 7 to our $160,000 maximum. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think this is a very 9 good way to approve it. We're continuing to draw a little 10 interest on our monies while the project's underway, and 11 we'll pay it when it's due. I think that's the way to do 12 it. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Megan, what's the 14 timeline for start and completion? 15 MS. CAFFALL: We have 90 working days in the 16 entire contract. As soon as the contract is awarded 17 tomorrow night, we'll have a preconstruction conference, 18 we'll get all the -- the payment performance bonds together 19 from the contractor. That usually takes about a week, and 20 then we schedule the preconstruction conference, at which 21 time he gives us his schedule for the construction. I don't 22 anticipate it's going to take 90 working days, but that 23 allowance is there in case -- right now we should be getting 24 started on our lighting project, but due to weather, 25 everything takes a little bit longer. So, as soon as the 24 1 contract is awarded, though, the contractor can go ahead and 2 order the buildings. There's about an 8- to 10-week time 3 lag there. So, during that time, they can do the site work 4 and get the foundations poured, and hopefully -- I have to 5 wait until we get our schedule from the contractor, but I'm 6 hoping that we'll get right on this. This is another reason 7 I feel very good about this being a local contractor. I 8 feel that their bid is very much a demonstration of 9 community support of the airport, and I think that they have 10 a real clear understanding we need to get on with this as 11 quickly as possible. So -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And, as we're about 13 to break ground, how many confirmed reservations for 14 T-hangars do you have at this point? 15 MS. CAFFALL: I have letters on file for 22. 16 But -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're building 16, 18 right? 19 MS. CAFFALL: There's only 16. However, some 20 of these letters are over a year old. So, as soon as we 21 have awarded the contract and I have an estimation of what 22 our completion time is, I'll start sending letters out to 23 those people. I would say at least -- at least half of them 24 have already -- you know, call me monthly, and so if we come 25 up with less than 16, we'll start marketing before they're 25 1 completed, just using an estimated completion date. We'll 2 have the leases ready to go beforehand and get all -- as 3 many of them as we can executed before they're even 4 completed, and the start date of the lease will be the -- 5 when the certificate of occupancy is issued on the 6 buildings. So, I -- the worst part of this is that we're 7 going to start this project and people are going to see it, 8 "Oh, wow, I can get a T-hangar in Kerrville," and they're 9 going to be full. So, that's what I anticipate. I'm sure 10 that -- I feel confident that that's what we'll end up with. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I can guarantee very 12 little in life, but I can guarantee you that those T-hangars 13 will be full from the time you can stick an airplane in 14 there. There's so much demand -- obvious and latent demand 15 out there just waiting for somebody to build T-hangars at 16 the airport. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a good thing. 18 My only question is -- is regarding the interlocal 19 agreement. It looks like a standard agreement. I see that 20 the City Attorney has signed off on it. I'm just wondering 21 if the County Attorney has had an opportunity to glance at 22 it. And, if not, I would like for that to happen. And -- 23 well, you're going to make the motion? 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. I'll make the 25 motion that we approve the -- the interlocal agreement as 26 1 submitted and authorize the County Judge to sign same, with 2 the proviso that before that occurs, sometime today we'll 3 ask our County Attorney to take a look at it, make sure 4 everything is -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll second that. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- copacetic. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 8 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 9 approve the interlocal agreement with the City of Kerrville 10 over construction of the T-hangars at the municipal airport 11 and authorize County Judge to sign same, subject to approval 12 of the agreement by the Kerr County Attorney. Any questions 13 or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your -- 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Just one comment. 15 Thanks, Megan, for all the hard work you've put in on this. 16 This is the person that's really made this happen. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true. 18 MS. CAFFALL: Thank you. I feel like we have 19 been there and back. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 21 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you, 27 1 Megan. Item Number 2, consider and discuss approval of a 2 resolution approving submission of a grant application to 3 the Criminal Justice Division of the Office of the Governor 4 for funding of the 216th Judicial District Narcotics Task 5 Force, and authorize County Judge to sign an Interagency 6 Agreement related to the grant application. 7 MR. DICKERSON: Judge, members of the Court, 8 I'm here as the Project Director for the Task Force today. 9 You'll notice on your paperwork Bill Hill was going to be 10 here, but we have to present this to Gillespie County and 11 Kendall County, and they have their court at the same time 12 you're having yours. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sir, what is your 14 name, for the record? 15 MR. DICKERSON: Chuck Dickerson. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MR. DICKERSON: I should have said that right 19 off the bat. Thank you for correcting me. This is the 13th 20 year the Task Force has been in existence. We're asking 21 that you recommend that we further put this grant to the 22 Governor's office for funding for next year. You have all 23 the grant information. I don't know if you have the -- the 24 latest statistics. Our task force arrested 135 people last 25 year and confiscated -- seized illegal drugs in excess of 28 1 $1,173,000. So, they're doing a great job. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Comment. I sat on 4 this Court when the Task Force came into being, and was a 5 great supporter of it then, and I certainly am now. The new 6 configuration over there has seemed to have gotten away from 7 the DPS-type program. We're getting more back into local 8 control that I personally like a lot. And, if you have been 9 watching the newspapers in the last six months, for the 10 first time in those 13 years, they begin to report some 11 of -- some of the drug busts and -- and arrests they've been 12 making, and they've been doing a bunch, and I'm proud of -- 13 proud of the program. Certainly -- certainly big-time in 14 favor of it. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Go ahead. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Jonathan, I was just 18 going to move it. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move the approval 21 of -- I think I'll read it in the record -- move the 22 approval of a resolution authorizing -- approving submission 23 of a grant application to the Criminal Justice Division of 24 the Office of the Governor, State of Texas, for funding of 25 the 216th Judicial District Narcotics Task Force, and 29 1 authorize the County Judge to execute an Interagency 2 Agreement related to the grant application. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 5 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Letz. Any further 6 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 7 right hands. 8 (The motion passed by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 12 MR. DICKERSON: Thank you. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Chief. We 14 appreciate it. 15 MR. DICKERSON: You bet. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item is Item Number 3, 17 consider and discuss presentation by Charlie Digges and Lane 18 Wolters on matters related to on-site sewage facilities. 19 Commissioner Griffin. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. Subsequent to 21 our approval of our pending order before the T.N.R.C.C., I 22 had a request from Charlie Digges to present some 23 information to the Court. I have not seen it, so I'm not -- 24 I'm not familiar with exactly what he's going to cover, but 25 it does bear on the issue, and he and Lane Wolters are going 30 1 to give us a quick presentation on some ideas and inputs 2 that they have to the Court. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 MR. DIGGES: These are the things we'd like 5 to talk about. We know that y'all have tackled a lot of 6 issues in the last -- well, probably now you've got them 7 passed in the last couple of months dealing with water 8 availability, with the subdivision regulations, and also 9 with the on-site regulations, and I'm sure there was several 10 months of work, you know, prior to that that went into -- to 11 that. And, I know that's a lot of -- a lot of work, and we 12 commend you for that. We do have some concerns about what 13 has been passed, and we'd like to give you some background 14 data on why that is so. 15 The topics I want to discover they -- this 16 will be the background data here -- how -- how our on-site 17 systems work, the types that we use, a few of our 18 experiences when we do inspection of -- of on-site systems 19 at the time of sale. And, here's probably going to be the 20 most -- I think the most telling factor that we're going to 21 bring up. Texas has adopted its own Clean Water Act in 22 response to pressure by EPA. They passed their Clean Water 23 Act back in the 1970's, and they're getting more aggressive 24 about pursuing those standards with the states. And, so, in 25 response to that, in 1998 Texas adopted their own Clean 31 1 Water Act, and now they're -- they're in the process of 2 identifying water bodies within the state that may have -- 3 may be in trouble, or what they call "impaired." And, Camp 4 Meeting Creek is on that list, so we'll discuss that. 5 I want to discuss about the water quality in 6 our -- our seeps, our creeks, and springs, and where we have 7 those problem areas and what brought those about, and just 8 touch on caliche and a few pending studies on caliche. Here 9 you've got a typical household, discharges into a septic 10 system here. And, what we want to do is we want to have 11 that -- that sewage discharge through the drainfield in 12 the -- what we call the "aerobic zone" of soil so that it 13 can get treated by certain microbes and digesters in the 14 soil and get cleaned up before it reaches the water table 15 down here. Or, if it migrates down -- downhill -- in this 16 case, this is uphill to the irrigation, but before it 17 reaches any type of surface water. 18 Why the placement of that sewage is important 19 is, if you look at the -- the depth these different 20 horizons -- the depth of the soils, and here are the 21 bacteria and the microbes that act on that sewage and clean 22 it up, you can see that as soon as you get down to 18, 23 36 inches deep, you're getting to an area where there's not 24 very many of those little critters to help us. They're 25 mostly in the upper 12 to 18 inches, and real close to the 32 1 surface, actually. Of course, if we put it there, then we 2 have a problem with surfacing effluent, and if we get it 3 that close, we have to do pretreatment with an aerobic 4 system, and we want to avoid that if we can. But, we want 5 to -- we want to place the sewage in an area where it can be 6 acted on and Mother Nature can take care of this process. 7 So, that -- that's our criteria here. If we go below here, 8 you can see -- if we are down below 36 inches, we're running 9 out of all of the little critters that help us. 10 The types of systems that we use -- and, 11 basically, we use about a third conventional, a third 12 low-pressure dosing, and a third aerobic systems. That's a 13 general breakdown of what systems will fit the different 14 sites that we have and comply with regulations that we have. 15 In a -- in a conventional system, you have a two-compartment 16 tank, and a lot of people believe there's a lot that happens 17 here. Really, only about 25 to 30 percent of the treatment 18 process to wastewater happens in a tank. Most of it happens 19 in the drainfield, in this first 2 foot of soil right below 20 the drainfield. That's where, again, you've got the 21 microbes and the digesters, and they're going to help clean 22 up all the wastewater. They're going to help clean the 23 pathogens that are in there that can -- can make us sick 24 with hepatitis or diphtheria, dysentery, all those things 25 that are transmitted through sewage. 33 1 The limitation with the conventional system 2 is that it enters the -- the ground a little bit deeper, and 3 doesn't have quite the digesters that -- like low-pressure 4 dosing would. Low-pressure dosing still utilizes a 5 two-compartment tank, but it also has a pump tank that can 6 pump out the sewage once it reaches a certain level in the 7 tank and get out in that upper level of the soil. Now, I'll 8 put on another view here to better illustrate that. 9 Here we're looking at the drainfield now, and 10 these trenches are only about 14, 16 inches deep. And, 11 low-pressure dosing does two things; it elevates the 12 effluent to when it's pumped out to the field, it's in that 13 aerobic zone and it's able -- because it's under pressure in 14 all this piping network, it's able to evenly distribute the 15 wastewater within the field itself, and so that helps not 16 oversaturate any area and keeps the -- the aerobic 17 conditions alive for better treatment. This -- this 18 system -- incidentally, it's really quite passive. Even 19 though it has a pump, that pump's only going to run about 20 five or ten minutes a day; going to use about $20 worth of 21 electricity in a year. 22 Here, again, is a quick cross-section of a 23 low-pressure dosing trench, anywhere from 6 to 12 inches 24 wide. We use 12 inches in our particular firm. You got pea 25 gravel down here. And, again, in this scenario here, let me 34 1 mention, though -- with the conventional system, I mentioned 2 that you needed 2 foot of soil. Because this is a better 3 treatment process, the state standards allow that you only 4 need 12 inches of soil before you hit maybe a restricted 5 layer or some type of material that wouldn't need proper 6 treatment. So, the 12 inches of material is needed here, so 7 on those sites where we have limited soils and we have about 8 2 foot of soil, we can make a low-pressure dosing system 9 work; we don't have to go to an aerobic system. 10 And then here we have the aerobic system 11 where everything that -- really, just about all the 12 treatment that's going to happen is going to happen in the 13 tank itself. We don't have soil -- much soil on the site. 14 We primarily have rock or caliche, and we're going to clean 15 up that wastewater by injecting air there from a compressor 16 into diffusers at the bottom, and there's a certain 17 clarification area in the -- in the tank, and so water gets 18 cleaned up to certain standards. 19 This is all tested by the National Sanitation 20 Foundation, has to go through six months worth of testing. 21 The clean water is brought over here; it still has pathogens 22 in it. It's a very clear water, but it still has pathogens 23 in it, so it goes through a tablet chlorinator here, and the 24 pathogens are killed, and then it's able to be dispersed 25 through sprinkler heads in your yard. So, the -- once the 35 1 elevation of the wastewater gets to a certain point, the 2 pump will kick on and it will discharge through the 3 sprinklers. Now, you get some extra treatment here because, 4 you know, you're going to get the use of nitrates in the 5 water by the grasses. 6 One last system that we sometimes use -- some 7 folks are really adamantly opposed to the aerobic systems; 8 they do have a maintenance contract, and so on sites where 9 we don't have hardly any soil, we can come in and import 10 that -- the soil and create what's called a "mound" and get 11 the treatment process here before it ever reaches the 12 natural grade out there at the site. Some people don't like 13 that, though, either, because it's like a big lump in your 14 back yard sticking out there, and -- and it's -- you can -- 15 if you got the right terrain, you can work at it and you can 16 get it to blend in, but sometimes you can't; it just really 17 sticks out. 18 Our experience with -- with inspections at 19 the time of sale, we did these prior to the County taking 20 over that function, and then subsequently U.G.R.A., back in 21 1992. And, here we have a site -- this is in Ingram -- 22 where we uncovered the tank and we uncovered the drainfield. 23 Within 10 feet, the drainfield leaves the property, and so 24 this property was sold in this configuration. It didn't go 25 through a replat; it was an illegal division of land, and so 36 1 this gentleman here had to come back -- and if he didn't get 2 along with his neighbor, he could plug the line and this 3 gentleman wouldn't have any drainfield. So, anyway, we had 4 stuck a new low-pressure dosing system out in this area 5 here. If you don't do a subsurface investigation, if you 6 don't try to find out where the drainfield is, this is the 7 type of thing that can happen. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Charlie, was that 9 system, the old system, working? 10 MR. DIGGES: It was functioning, yes. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 12 MR. DIGGES: This is on the east side of town 13 out near the airport. This is Paradise Avenue off of 14 Highway 27 out over here. This is River Drive and Front 15 Street. This was the Richard and Carol Land property at the 16 time. It backs up to the Guadalupe River, to give you the 17 location. They asked us to come out -- this wasn't at the 18 time of sale. This was -- this was -- they were thinking of 19 adding on, and they wanted to make sure they didn't get into 20 their septic system. 21 The problem was, the previous owners didn't 22 realize that when they added on, they built over their 23 cesspool, and so that's what they had underneath their house 24 was a cesspool. That's very close to the river, and -- and 25 then also very close to this well and another well over 37 1 here. In fact -- this was back in '93-94. In fact, then 2 you had to be 150 feet away with your drainfield. We 3 couldn't do that, so we had to come to Commissioners Court 4 and ask for a -- ask for a variance to the setbacks so -- 5 'cause we could only get 70 feet from the drainfield from 6 the well here, and 100 feet here. And, so, what we did was 7 put in an aerobic system, chlorinate, kill the pathogens 8 and -- kill the pathogens and clean up the wastewater, and 9 then put it out here in this drainfield out in the front, 10 try to get away from the river. 11 The problem here, you know, with that -- that 12 cesspool here, they're typically deep. When you get close 13 to the river, kind of like, Judge, your property out in -- 14 in the west part of the county, you may only perk down 15 from -- say a cesspool that's maybe 6 feet deep, you may 16 perk down another 10 feet. You're already at the 6 feet 17 level, you're already past the aerobic zone of the soil. 18 You know, you're going to perk down, good chance you're 19 going to hit a gravel bar, and that gravel bar is 20 interconnected with the river, and you're going to have some 21 water quality consequences associated with that. 22 Here is one where we kind of lucked out. 23 This was -- this was one where Cherokee Septic Tank pumped 24 out -- we found the tank and they pumped it out. When they 25 pumped it out, the side walls of the concrete tanks were 38 1 collapsing; it wasn't a -- a cast-reinforced tank. It was 2 just with cinder blocks and mortar, and it started falling 3 apart. And, luckily in this case, it's on Arcadia Loop, and 4 Arcadia Loop had city sewer. We recommended they tie into 5 city -- the city sewer. That's what they did out here, is 6 Arcadia Loop did that. The river's very close-by there. 7 The thing was probably leaking for quite some time, and by 8 inspection, it picked up. 9 What we're concerned about with -- with the 10 inspection process is that if you leave it up to the -- to 11 private industry, then typically it gets done by people who 12 will have the least amount of standards, so there's no -- if 13 there's no specified standards, a seller will want his 14 system to pass; he's going to migrate towards somebody who's 15 going to give him the answer that they want, and that 16 sometimes can happen. So, you have trouble with -- with 17 reduced standards. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Charlie, you've talked 15 19 minutes so far, which is longer than almost any presentation 20 that we've allowed in this court. And, while I understand 21 this is important, if you're going to talk for another 15 or 22 20 minutes, I think we need to do a workshop. We have too 23 much to do today to spend all morning on this one topic. 24 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've had a number of 39 1 discussions, we've had public hearings on it. I think it's 2 an important issue, but we have dealt with it a number of 3 times already. And, I don't have a problem having a 4 presentation for anyone in the public, but I think it needs 5 to be limited to 15, 20 minutes. And, from your list, I 6 don't see that we're going to get there in another five 7 minutes. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think that if 9 there -- particularly, Charlie, if there are some points 10 that you would like to have us really ponder -- 11 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- any change to our 13 pending order that's before the T.N.R.C.C., give us that as 14 quickly as you can. 15 MR. DIGGES: Well, let me do that. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We're relatively 17 familiar with the Clean Water Act. We're relatively 18 familiar -- I think the whole Court is very up-to-speed 19 on -- on what the issues are between those who are in favor 20 of -- of an inspection at the time of real estate 21 transaction and those that say that there's another side of 22 that argument; we're familiar with the argument and what 23 that's based on. 24 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, cut to the chase, 40 1 if you can. 2 MR. DIGGES: Let me just focus on the Clean 3 Water Act, because I don't know if the Court realizes that 4 Texas adopted its own Clean Water Act, and they concentrate 5 on surface water quality standards. And, they're required 6 to develop a list of impaired water bodies that do not meet 7 standards. So, water bodies identified as impaired or 8 threatened are compiled into what is known as the 303-D 9 list. That's what I wanted to show you now. I'll bypass 10 some other ones here and go right to the one that -- there's 11 Camp Meeting Creek. 12 They -- they state that every water body on 13 this list has to be cleaned up. Now, I don't know -- you 14 may know that it's on the list, but I don't know if you know 15 that you'll be contacted at some time in the near future, 16 because all of these have to be cleaned up, and so you have 17 to be working on a solution. And, what our -- what our 18 problem is, is they got a lot of these here that are on low 19 priority. Even though they're low priority, they still have 20 to be cleaned up. We're of medium priority. We have 21 perhaps toxic pathogen levels in Camp Meeting Creek at 22 times. They've set that at a certain priority to them. 23 Everybody on this list is going to have to do a cleanup, and 24 that's going to cost taxpayers' money. Our concern is that 25 we're reducing standards, and yet, you know, here we have an 41 1 instance where we're going to have something that's going to 2 cost the taxpayers money to clean up, and I don't know if 3 you all are aware of that or not. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We are aware of that, 5 Charlie. We also -- you may not be aware that we've applied 6 for grants for the very purpose of taking some of those 7 septic systems that are polluting some of the collector 8 streams that feed into Camp Meeting Creek -- we've 9 identified the area. We've asked -- we're seeking the 10 grants, and if we're successful on the grant search -- our 11 applications are successful, it is our intent to work out an 12 interlocal agreement with the City of Kerrville to hook 13 those up on the sewer. I'm not sure you were aware of that, 14 but that's part of a project that's been ongoing now for 15 about a year. 16 MR. DIGGES: That would be great. We think 17 that needs to be the solution, too. That's a good -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Charlie, you used the 19 words that we were "reducing standards" -- 20 MR. DIGGES: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- at some point in 22 your presentation. I assume that you're going to get to 23 that point, that where -- you're going to point out where we 24 are reducing standards, exactly what you mean? 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You're talking about 42 1 inspections, is what your talking about? 2 MR. DIGGES: Well -- 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 'Cause we haven't 4 reduced anything from 285. 5 MR. DIGGES: -- you're reducing -- see, when 6 I talked to Ken Graber -- I wasn't here when a gentleman 7 from the audience asked if we went by just the state 8 standards, would we be protecting Kerr County, and that is 9 -- and that's probably, to a certain extent, true for new 10 construction. But, for existing areas where we already have 11 problems, for us not to address situations where we already 12 have failing systems -- and when I say "failing systems," 13 not only from an absorption standpoint, but from a treatment 14 standpoint, then how are we ever going to improve water 15 quality in those areas, unless we go to that extent that 16 you're talking about? Our only dilemma is that we have 17 other areas; Oak Forest South off of 173 across from The 18 Woods, and Greenwood Forest. We have other areas -- 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Charlie, in the 20 interest of time, let me jump in here and let me tell you 21 that the -- the thought process that the Court has gone 22 through on this. What we have said is -- is that the state 23 standards, adequately enforced, protect, obviously, new 24 construction and so on, and that we expect anyone who is in 25 the business of -- of trying to clean things up to find the 43 1 polluters and go fix them, whether that takes legal action 2 or a reminder, a request or whatever. So, the Court -- the 3 Court went through the mental process that you're talking 4 about, the need for an inspection at the time of real estate 5 transfer. What we have said is -- is that we think that 6 all -- any polluter needs to be found out and to have the 7 system fixed. Not just at the time of sale, but anytime. 8 And, that is an enforcement, and that is a -- a separate 9 issue, and we have addressed that. Now, if you've got 10 something new to tell us in that area, I think we'd all want 11 to hear it, but that's not -- I'm hearing the same arguments 12 that we've heard before -- 13 MR. DIGGES: You're -- 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- at public hearings 15 and so on. 16 MR. DIGGES: You're dealing -- you're saying 17 that it's -- there's two types I've not even showed up here; 18 it's PS and NPS, point source and non-point source. Many of 19 what we're -- what we're dealing with in water quality is a 20 non-point source. You can't point at one house; it's 21 collectively. They're all not -- some of them are not 22 treating to the level they should, and then you have a 23 problem in your creek. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Then we ought to go 25 investigate, then. And, what we said is, if it backs up to 44 1 the river and the river's got pollution in it, let's go find 2 the polluter and -- let's find it and let's narrow it down 3 and let's go fix that problem. That's what we have said 4 will work. Now, you can disagree with that, but that's 5 not -- that's -- but that's where we are. And, unless you 6 can present us something that would change our mind in that 7 regard -- and that's the reason I say cut to the chase, and 8 let's talk about caliche or talk about how those systems are 9 done. I have a question, for example, of what standard is 10 any septic system inspected to? And, I don't think there is 11 one that we're using. 12 MR. DIGGES: No, there isn't. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Very subjective. If 14 it's subjective, it can be arbitrary and capricious as well, 15 so -- 16 MR. DIGGES: Well, that's why we elected to 17 go with the government body, because they could set 18 standards and we could debate that standard and get it down 19 to a refined point. But, when you leave it up to -- when 20 you don't have standards and there's no required standard, 21 people are going to gravitate to whatever answer they're 22 going to want to get, and that's what happened in the past 23 in these other areas, in the areas of Greenwood Forest. 24 You're going to have smaller lots with conventional systems 25 in caliche. In Kerrville South, that's what you have. In 45 1 Oak Forest South, that's what you have. And, with the -- 2 with the passage of the new rules, you're going from 1-acre 3 tracts to, if you use surface water, down to half-acre 4 tracts. We're increasing our density and we're allowing 5 things back in caliche. We're going the same direction we 6 went before that caused a problem. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let's dispose of the 8 caliche argument right quick, if we can. I've done an 9 extensive search of the literature, and the Carlisle Study 10 was certainly not the -- all the answer. 11 MR. DIGGES: No. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And, in fact, in his 13 study, he mentioned the word "caliche" one time. And, from 14 what I have heard previously, I would have thought that the 15 whole study was aimed at caliche. He used -- the word 16 "caliche" appeared in the study one time, and then, after 17 making some generalized comments, jumps right into 18 essentially what are the state standards. It says that this 19 is what you do; you classify the soil, you come up with a 20 reading, blah, blah, blah, you design a system and so forth. 21 And, that can be a wide range of systems. I don't think 22 anybody's going to ever argue that. T.N.R.C.C. doesn't 23 argue that. 24 MR. DIGGES: Right. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Now, the -- and, as 46 1 far as caliche, I can give you a stack of stuff here that I 2 have done research on. The caliche problem is certainly not 3 answered. There are a number of studies much more current 4 than the Carlisle Study -- 5 MR. DIGGES: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- that totally 7 disagree with him. He says that caliche is not a soil, and 8 we have -- we have peer review studies. Not just a study 9 done like the Carlisle Study, but have gone through peer 10 review, and those studies say that caliche does have 11 microorganisms in it. Now, I don't know which one's right, 12 but you've got to take real data and not assert on the basis 13 of one person's opinion that it's one way or the other. 14 That just is not good science. 15 MR. DIGGES: We're not doing that, either. 16 We realize that there's other studies that are pending, and 17 we're wondering why the Court is -- when those -- those are 18 pending -- as a matter of fact, it was ourselves, my firm 19 and U.G.R.A., that went to the Research Council and asked 20 for a study on caliche. That's -- the results of that are 21 supposed to be out in May of this year. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I've already got the 23 interim Phase I report. 24 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It says -- it's got 47 1 some very interesting things in there -- that there are 2 natural buffers in the caliche soils in the Hill Country, 3 and that -- that the result in caliche was much different 4 than what was expected when they went in. The Partin Study 5 that was done in '97 -- 6 MR. DIGGES: Right. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- indicated -- and 8 that was a lab study -- indicated that there was much more 9 treatment in caliche-type soils than was expected before 10 they went into the study. The interim Phase I report out of 11 the City of Austin's ecological systems, whatever they are, 12 indicates essentially the same thing. Interesting part of 13 that study is that that study has -- and these are 14 monitored. These are holes that are dug and wells that are 15 dug to monitor a specific kind of system, and it appears 16 that the nitrates that are injected as a result of an 17 aerobic system can cause more harm to the drinking water 18 quality than some of the other problems we've got with 19 pathogens and -- and nitrogen, other nitrogen products. 20 So -- so, there is a wide, wide field of study here and a 21 lot of stuff going on. We have made a rule -- we have 22 established a rule based on the best evidence we have. When 23 those studies come out and the final results are in, if they 24 indicate something different, this Court, I'm sure, would 25 want to consider it, but that's where we are today. 48 1 MR. DIGGES: Well, we just want to go on the 2 record as saying we think that you're making lot sizes 3 smaller, you're allowing systems to go back into caliche, 4 when I think at this point it still is controversial. And 5 we have evidence -- I can show you evidence, if you want to 6 take the time, where we have problems with the seeps in the 7 areas of those -- of those subdivisions I've talked about. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That is a problem for 9 the subdivision workshop, and I would be glad to listen to 10 it at the right time. And I don't mean that as a put-down 11 at all; I'm just saying that -- that when we get to that 12 technical level, we probably need to do that in a workshop 13 environment. In fact, we've probably gone beyond where we 14 need to be, anyway. Let me just say that there are -- the 15 American Society for Testing and Materials, A.S.T.M., which 16 I'm sure you're familiar with, has peer-reviewed documents 17 and they have put it out in -- in good form. For example, 18 they have a comprehensive inspection procedure for 19 evaluation of septic systems. I'd like to know if anybody 20 has ever looked at that. I don't think we have. I would 21 like to be able to hand a sheet of paper to the landowner, 22 developer, anybody, and say, Here's the way you ought to 23 inspect the system -- 24 MR. DIGGES: Well -- 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- to protect you and 49 1 to protect the rest of the people around you and the 2 environment, the whole thing. So, it's a very controversial 3 subject, and I'm not sure where we're going to get with this 4 today. And, I'll be glad to sit down and talk more, and in 5 a workshop environment; I think Commissioner Letz has that 6 right. But, we have been through most of this. That's my 7 bottom line. 8 MR. DIGGES: Here's my dilemma, okay? I've 9 come to the Court before when there's been a workshop, but 10 it's mostly been people being able to get up and speak for 11 two or three minutes without getting to the technical level, 12 and that's all that the -- the communication has been. And, 13 so, when I hear "workshop" again, the reason I'm out here 14 now is so I can do this type of presentation, because at the 15 workshop I wasn't allowed that. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, did you ask ahead 17 of time and plan the workshop? I mean, generally, I think 18 if you or anyone wants to make a presentation at a workshop, 19 we will allow them to do that. But, just to come in with a 20 group of people and raise your hand and say, "I want to 21 speak for 45 minutes" when we aren't aware of that, haven't 22 planned for it, I don't think that's reasonable. 23 MR. DIGGES: I agree with that. But, we 24 haven't had the type of dialog, I think, that we really 25 need, because Lane and I have legitimate concerns of 50 1 what's -- what's happening, because he's been here, I don't 2 know, a long time, and he's seen the type of development 3 that's gone on and the results of that. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My recommendation to the 5 Judge and the rest of the Court is, you know, let's set a 6 workshop if we want to go over this. We can look at the 7 Subdivision Rules at the same time. I think this is better 8 done in an afternoon session. We have a lot of people in 9 the audience right now that are waiting to get through a 10 very long agenda already, and I just think that it is not -- 11 this is not the right time to go into a lengthy discussion 12 on one topic. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me also point out, 16 probably in the interest of time, we can do that, because 17 our pending rule is probably going to be approved next week. 18 We're not going to -- there's no way we can turn that off, 19 even if we wanted to -- 20 MR. DIGGES: Sure. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- at this point, 22 'cause we don't have it on the agenda today. I'd be glad to 23 set a workshop and try to get some more of the technical 24 data out on the table so that everybody can get a look at 25 it. I may sound a little impatient, because I've spent a 51 1 lot of time doing this -- 2 MR. DIGGES: I understand. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- this stuff. But, 4 other members of the Court and other members of the public 5 might not see that. So, why don't we do that? And, we'll 6 set up a time, and I'll have to actually coordinate the time 7 to do that. 8 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Charlie, I have a real 10 quick question, first, and I want you and Lane to help me a 11 little bit with this. There are a lot of people -- and I 12 mean a lot, more than a few. A lot of people that ask me a 13 question, and I'm sure that every person at this table's 14 been asked this question -- or, actually, it's a statement; 15 that the reason old Charlie and Lane are so nervous about 16 this thing is because they're losing money. Now, what I 17 want to ask you is, how -- what kind of response can I -- I 18 mean, I see it's much deeper than that. I can see that. 19 But what kind of response can I give people? Have y'all had 20 that question? 21 (Several Commissioners nodded.) 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, we all have. How 23 can we respond to it? Help us work through that, because 24 that -- I'm going to tell you, there's some angry folks out 25 there with that on their mind. 52 1 MR. DIGGES: I can understand that. And 2 there's -- there's -- there can be that perception. I went 3 through this myself just last week, where I did some soul 4 searching. Why am I pursuing this so hard? Is it for my 5 own personal gain, or do we really have some problems? I 6 went to Scott Loveland and I said, "Am I just nuts, or do we 7 have real problems?" And he said, "Charlie, you're on a 8 good cause; you need to keep going." We do have some water 9 quality problems that I don't think are being addressed. 10 MR. WOLTERS: I'd like to say a few words to 11 you, Buster, in answer to that. I'm Lane Wolters, and we're 12 not going to take much more of your time. We do need to 13 have a workshop, though. And, this question does come up. 14 And, I mean, it's sort of like you're the -- you're this guy 15 at the carnival; you're the one everybody's throwing the 16 ball at when you stand up and try to talk like this. You 17 know you're going to get that very same question. And, let 18 me just answer this way. Charlie and I have talked about 19 this, too. Why do we set ourselves up for this? Because -- 20 you know, my answer -- we could sit back and probably -- I 21 know Charlie would agree with me, we would make more money 22 if there were no rules in this county. Okay? Because the 23 -- the most money that I ever make is on a conventional 24 system. So, if I were in it for the money, I would be up 25 here, and Charlie would be too, saying, "Let's don't do 53 1 aerobic, let's don't do pressure dosing; let's just do one 2 type of system where we don't have to fool with designs, we 3 don't have to have time involved in any of that kind of 4 stuff. We don't have the hardware or the technology that we 5 have to buy. We don't have to come back to that system over 6 and over again for two years. We can just take the money 7 and run." That is my answer to this. 8 If you're -- we're also concerned about 9 density on septic systems that would, we think, have caused 10 many of the problems in the past, and continue to cause 11 problems now. If we were in it for the money, we would want 12 what? Less density or more density? We'd want more, so 13 what -- we wouldn't be here against what has been passed on 14 that deal. We would say, "Hey, we can put four systems on a 15 1-acre lot instead of one system; we make four times the 16 money." Duh. So, that's my -- my answer to this question, 17 is that we would make a lot more money in this business if 18 we just stayed with conventional systems. It would cost a 19 lot more. There's more overhead, profit margin is less for 20 the aerobic systems and pressure dosing systems, and 21 certainly the attitude is, you know, more favorable for 22 conventional systems. So, that's my answer. We'd make more 23 money if we weren't up here looking and trying to make our 24 concerns known, and where -- the direction the Court's going 25 in this program. 54 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Thank you for your 2 comments. Let me just say, too, if I may interrupt for a 3 second, that we really appreciate Charlie and Lane coming in 4 and -- and taking the time to think through this and present 5 it in a logical sequence and an engineering approach, which 6 I happen to like, myself. That's the way to do it, and we 7 better need to do that in a workshop environment, and I 8 would look forward to hearing more on all these issues. I 9 don't -- and the Court just needs to move on for today, but 10 we will set a workshop and try to go through this in detail. 11 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: You're going to work out a 13 time with Lane and Charlie and bring it back to the Court? 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. We'll probably 15 need time enough to get that notice out and all that, so it 16 would probably have to be after the next -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Afternoon of our next 18 meeting or something? I mean, I -- 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, just -- we'll have 20 to -- 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Have to set a public 22 hearing. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Not a public hearing, but -- 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I mean a -- 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- a workshop. 55 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Set a workshop. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Which we have to do by agenda 3 item, so it can't be till after our meeting. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'm just not sure how 7 fast we want to get that together. We've got some things to 8 do. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Syfan, do you have 10 something you wanted to add on this topic? 11 MR. SYFAN: Yes. I'll try not to take quite 12 as long as they did, but I think there's another item that 13 ought to be included in the workshop, and it may solve a lot 14 of these problems. In the past ten years or so, there's 15 been a lot of conflict of interest and crony-ism in this 16 subject. These proponents are always in the forefront of 17 that. I do want to compliment the County Court. You have 18 studied your lessons, and I compliment you. There are some 19 problems in the county, and we ought to dig them out and we 20 ought to solve them. There's no question about that. There 21 are ways to do it. 22 But, the problem that I see is one that's 23 been faced by many professions. I'm a retired civil 24 engineer. I'm very familiar with conflicts of interest 25 and -- and the setting of standards within a -- professional 56 1 ethics. The ethics of most professions are set by the 2 professions, and one really hasn't developed within this 3 profession as it has splintered off. If you go to a doctor, 4 you do not expect to buy your pills from that doctor. 5 Ethically, it's forbidden. If you go to the optometrist, 6 you don't buy your glasses from the doctor who is 7 prescribing your lenses. I think if we can't do it 8 ethically, we ought to do it legally. We ought to separate 9 the design and the construction of these units. There is a 10 conflict of interest. Last time I was up here, I -- I spoke 11 of it, and I -- I didn't speak clearly enough. I said there 12 was a vile -- "vile" conflict of interest being exercised 13 here, and I was quoted in the paper as saying "mild." And, 14 I want to say it very clearly. It's vile, as in heinous. I 15 think you need to address this in a workshop, and I'd surely 16 like to participate. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, one brief 19 comment -- one comment that Charlie made that I really and 20 truly agree with. He said that Lane had been around here a 21 long time. Lane Wolters is the "old geezer" of septic 22 tanks. 23 MR. WOLTERS: Never thought it would come to 24 that. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There you are, buddy. 57 1 You finally reached it. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Charlie, thank you and Lane 3 for coming in. We will set a workshop. We will give you 4 the times to do this properly. This is something we have to 5 do right. We appreciate your time and input. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I think I might 7 add a workshop -- I think we probably ought to style it to 8 do lot size on Subdivision Rules at the same time, because 9 they are interrelated, and we have made some big changes in 10 the subdivision side, too. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We'll work it out. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll get it all in one 13 package. 14 MR. WOLTERS: Thank you. 15 MR. DIGGES: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Thanks. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item is Item Number 4, 18 consider and discuss a variance for O.S.S.F. licensing 19 requirements, Eddie and Joyce Sowell, owners of Lot 1, Block 20 2, and Lot 1, Block 3 of the Harrison Tract in Center Point. 21 Commissioner Williams. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Unfortunately, 23 Commissioner, we're not going to get too far away from the 24 topic that Charlie was presenting just a moment ago. This 25 has to do with granting a variance for Eddie and Joyce 58 1 Sowell in Center Point. It has a long history, very 2 complicated history. There is an issue that relates to a -- 3 back to a real estate transfer, and it has to do with the 4 Sowells being taken to court on two occasions, and on both 5 occasions there have been motions approved to dismiss the 6 issues put before them. And, I think the best thing to do 7 is to ask Mr. Sowell if he'll come to the podium and help 8 us -- step us through this. Mr. Sowell purchased the 9 property. On the property when he purchased it in 1998, I 10 believe, there was both an existing septic tank, a 11 drainfield, and a well in close proximity to each other, 12 well underneath the standards set by the State. Mr. Sowell 13 bought the property. Mr. Wiedenfeld bought the well. The 14 well was subsequently capped. Mr. Sowell kept his property 15 and signed an agreement -- some -- some type of an agreement 16 proffered by U.G.R.A. on behalf of the County to do some 17 upgrading to his system within a 6-month period of time. Is 18 that correct, Mr. Sowell? 19 MR. SOWELL: That is correct, yes. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That didn't take 21 place, I think, although he did do some upgrading of the 22 drainfield at a subsequent time. Mr. Wiedenfeld, on behalf 23 of his water -- Wiedenfeld Water Works Company, capped that 24 well and drilled a second well, still within the -- the 25 perimeter, within the perimeter allowable by state rules; I 59 1 think some 75 feet from the existing well -- prior well, but 2 well within the 150-foot limit established by the State. 3 Mr. -- Mr. Sowell has been to court on a couple of 4 occasions. He's now here seeking a variance, and I think 5 it's appropriate for him to make his case, and let's ask 6 some questions. Mr. Sowell? 7 MR. SOWELL: Basically, what he said -- 8 Mr. Williams -- is basically all I have. When I bought the 9 property from -- from Beverly Harrison, at the time I didn't 10 know anything about this well system or a public water 11 system or anything. It's Mr. Wiedenfeld -- one of his 12 systems, which is now capped. I have a plugging report. It 13 was capped March of 2000. He was, you know, serving water 14 to the public, and I wasn't fully aware of where my septic 15 system was, you know. And then, when I did find out, my 16 leach line was approximately about 12 foot from his well 17 head, no more than 15. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It was put in by the 19 Harrisons; is that correct? 20 MR. SOWELL: Yes. Yes, sir. And, one of the 21 issues is now brought up that my tank is undersized, my line 22 is not long enough, soil conditions are not permitting. My 23 septic system is not failing. I have had Pete from A-1 come 24 out, because Dawn Wright asked me to do that to, you know, 25 comply with U.G.R.A. He come out, opened up the end of my 60 1 leach line, dug a test hole, pumped my tank. He give it a 2 visual inspection. He told me, you know, before he did it, 3 he said, "Mr. Sowell, I got to let you know, if your tank is 4 failing, if there's anything wrong, I will report it." And, 5 I said. "Yes, sir, that's why I called you, because of your 6 honesty." He come highly recommended. Mr. Wiedenfeld come 7 out and he looked at the septic system after it was pumped, 8 and then he sent Mr. Bowers out, and I -- and I got a report 9 that, you know, everything is wrong with it and that I got 10 to get plans for a new septic system. And, there's nothing 11 wrong with my tank. There's nothing wrong with my leach 12 lines. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you have the copy 14 of your plat? I think the Commissioners need to see -- 15 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir, I do. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- exactly where 17 we're talking about and the proximity of those things, the 18 wells, the septic -- 19 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- and so forth. Do 21 you have that? 22 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And, could you come 24 up here and point it out for the Commissioners? 25 MR. SOWELL: Mind if I come around? 61 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Stay right there. 2 MR. SOWELL: What we have here is, this is my 3 property. Charles Wiedenfeld's well is -- his holding 4 tank -- this is the one that's capped, and these holding 5 tanks are still here. He has this property here, and this 6 is his new well. This is Mr. Wiedenfeld's new offices. My 7 septic system sets behind my house, right -- kind of, and 8 the line runs out -- it's no more than about 15 feet away 9 from the well head, and of the one he just had recently 10 plugged back in March 2000. He is now operating this well 11 here, which is -- he did not have a sanitary easement in 12 place before putting that well in. He came in and wanted me 13 to grant him a sanitary easement, and I declined to do so, 14 so therefore he went to T.N.R.C.C. and asked for an 15 exception, and he just recently got that. I have that 16 document also. My water quality was bad, and I called 17 T.N.R.C.C. out, and they've run inspections on my water. 18 And, he doesn't -- I've got copies of that, where he 19 doesn't -- he hasn't -- you know, he's failing. He doesn't 20 even meet the minimum state requirements for having enough 21 chlorine. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When was this? 23 MR. SOWELL: Right here. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the date? 25 MR. SOWELL: The date on it was October 22nd, 62 1 1999. I've had them out on several occasions, and they 2 failed not only once, but several times. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is this dotted line 4 on this plat purported to be the 100-year floodplain? 5 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir, it is. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And, is -- is your 7 property and your septic outside of the 100-year floodplain? 8 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is Mr. Wiedenfeld's 10 office and tank within the 100-year floodplain? 11 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir, I believe so. I'm not 12 a surveyor, but, I mean, it's evident. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Step back, Mr. Sowell. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Sowell, what improvements 16 have you made to your septic? 17 MR. SOWELL: I did not have a cleanout plug 18 between the house and septic system, and I believe in that, 19 too. I was raised on a septic system, and I had -- had that 20 put in by All-Tex Plumbing. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: What other improvements have 22 you made? 23 MR. SOWELL: I haven't made any other 24 improvements. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 63 1 MR. SOWELL: I just administer plant enzymes 2 in my tank, also. And, you know, I mean, being raised on a 3 septic system, you got to know how to take care of them or 4 they will fail. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, the issue today is 6 whether or not we should grant a variance to allow Mr. 7 Sowell to get a permit for his system. Is that what we're 8 here for? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's the 10 issue, and I think Mr. Sowell's basis is reluctance to do 11 this by reason of a statement on the plat dated August 18, 12 1986, signed by Lane Wolters. "I hereby certify that the 13 sewer disposal utility system proposed for installation in 14 the subdivision platted hereon will fully meet the 15 requirements of the Texas Department of Health and U.G.R.A., 16 and are hereby approved as shown." I think that -- is that 17 correct, Mr. Sowell, that this is the basis upon which you 18 have resisted making change? 19 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Comments? Questions? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess the question I 23 have is, you -- one of your statements -- well, first of 24 all, the water issue and Wiedenfeld Water Works has nothing 25 to do with this. That's a different issue; we don't need to 64 1 talk about that. That's a deal between you and T.N.R.C.C. 2 and Mr. Wiedenfeld and T.N.R.C.C. The issue, to me, 3 basically is, is your system working or failing? You 4 have -- you said you had -- I believe you have had one 5 report from A-1 or -- 6 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- that it was fine, and 8 you had another report from U.G.R.A. that said it was bad. 9 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, which is correct? 11 I mean, what are the -- I guess, what are the times or the 12 dates of those two inspections? Are they far apart or close 13 together? 14 MR. SOWELL: No, very close together, within 15 a week. I had to have Pete come out there, and they exposed 16 my tank and leach line and all that, and there was 17 improvement to that septic system prior to me buying that 18 house, because it used to have the old clay-filled line. 19 Now we have the perforated plastic. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, you need -- 21 basically, those two entities need to come to us, present -- 22 if they can't resolve whether it's -- the system is failing 23 or not, and -- 'cause that's the issue. If the system's 24 failing, it needs to be fixed. If it isn't, to me, it 25 doesn't. 65 1 MR. SOWELL: If my septic system was failing, 2 sir, believe me, I would fix it. I would repair it, 'cause 3 I have to live there. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we have -- what 5 you're saying, U.G.R.A. says it is failing. 6 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, therefore, there's a 8 conflict on that point, and that's the issue. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Did they say it was failing 10 or did they say it didn't meet the current standards? 11 MR. SOWELL: The way they stated it, it 12 doesn't even meet 1977 standards or '97 standards. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: But, did they say it was 14 failing, or did they say it didn't meet the standards? 15 MR. SOWELL: Basically, they -- I have the 16 document that says that it just didn't meet the standards. 17 They didn't say it was failing. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: What were the complaints? 19 What was the basis of the complaints that were brought and 20 dismissed before J.P. 2? 21 MR. SOWELL: The complaint was that I was in 22 the Health Code violation. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Failing to obtain a 24 license. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Those were dismissed? 66 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, they were 2 dismissed. The complainant, I believe, Mr. Wiedenfeld, is 3 here. 4 MR. LUCAS: Let me just make a point on that. 5 The second dismissal was based on the fact that Rex Emerson, 6 my predecessor, had filed the complaint based on a rule that 7 I found right before we were to go to trial, the rule -- you 8 couldn't prosecute anybody on it. In other words, he -- he 9 cited the wrong rule. It was some procedural rule. So, 10 that's why it was dismissed. And, the way that it got here 11 is Judge Stacy, Mr. Sowell and Charlie and I, the day we 12 were to go to trial, all met and I said, "Okay, you know, 13 what's the deal on this? Let's talk it through." And then 14 both parties decided to bring it up before the Court and 15 Commissioner Williams. But, that just gives you a 16 background. It was just that Rex filed it -- or I guess it 17 was Rex. I'm pretty sure it was Rex filed it under the 18 wrong rule. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: What is the first complaint, 20 Travis? 21 MR. LUCAS: You know, I really don't know. 22 This is -- what, 1998 was the first time it was filed? 23 It -- it was dismissed by Motley -- Motley's signature, and 24 I believe it's in y'all's packet. So, I really don't know, 25 and there's nothing in the file that suggests what it was. 67 1 I would presume it would be for not having a license or 2 malfunctioning or something to that effect. There's nothing 3 in the file. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Signature. I think 5 that's it, Travis. But, however, referring back to a letter 6 that U.G.R.A. wrote to Mr. Sowell June 14th of 2000, they -- 7 they state, among other things, over Mr. Wiedenfeld's 8 signature, that he has a 490-gallon, single-compartment 9 tank, 40 linear feet of drainfield in gravelly soils. Both 10 tank and drainfield are undersize, even for 1977 standards 11 as well as 1997 standards, and would need to be upgraded and 12 so forth. The soil profile hole shows gravelly soils. 13 These conditions require an alternative system. Alternative 14 systems require professional engineer or registered 15 sanitarian, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Mr. Sowell, is 16 your property located adjacent to Mr. Wiedenfeld's office? 17 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is the soil condition 19 the same on Mr. Wiedenfeld's property as it is in yours, to 20 your knowledge? 21 MR. SOWELL: I don't think it's going to 22 change within 25 feet or so, no. A hundred feet, not even, 23 no, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think 25 Mr. Wiedenfeld needs to answer a question; whether he 68 1 adhered to the same standards in the construction of his as 2 he's seeking Mr. Sowell to adhere to in the reconstruction 3 of his. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me ask another 5 question first. Is there a license now on the system? 6 MR. SOWELL: That is why the -- 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: An old, existing 8 license? Is there one? 9 MR. SOWELL: That's what is shown on that 10 plat, I believe. I -- you know. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's relying on the 12 plat -- the document on the plat when they purchased the 13 property -- the statement on the plat. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But that is not a 15 license, per se. I'm asking is there a license, per se? 16 MR. WIEDENFELD: No, sir, there's no license, 17 per se. Charles Wiedenfeld, Kerr County's Designated 18 Representative. That's been the case from day one. He 19 recognizes the fact that there was not a license. He 20 executed a document at the time of sale with the seller, 21 fully acknowledging there was not a licensed septic system 22 and that it was to be -- one year was granted for him to 23 obtain the funds and the engineering necessary to have a 24 license and have a licensed septic system placed. And -- 25 and one other issue on this -- on this is that there was -- 69 1 in an old order that possibly was still in effect at that 2 time, it specifically says in there that approval of a 3 subdivision plat does not authorize or license a septic 4 system. And, I'm referencing a -- an Upper Guadalupe River 5 Authority septic order that was in place at that time, and 6 it specifically has language in there that says that it does 7 not license a system by just having a standard plat 8 approval. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is this system grandfathered? 10 When was this system installed? 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: When was the system 12 installed originally? Do we know? 13 MR. SOWELL: I'd say it was probably back in 14 the '40's, maybe back in the '50's, somewhere in there. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This issue came up under 16 real estate transfer. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Inspection. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right, so it was 20 grandfathered up to that time. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Once it got transferred, 22 under our current rules, I guess -- I mean, our current 23 rules still require the license. New rules haven't been 24 approved yet. I think one of your instructions was about 25 whether the system was the same on Mr. Wiedenfeld's 70 1 property. I don't know that that's relative. I believe Mr. 2 Wiedenfeld has a different type of system, don't you? A 3 mound? 4 MR. WIEDENFELD: I have a soil replacement 5 system, which is an engineered system. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Different type of system 7 that was installed on that adjoining property. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the issue is 9 whether or not we give Mr. Sowell relief, so I would make 10 the motion that he be granted a variance to the O.S.S.F. 11 licensing requirements. See where it goes. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I wish we had more 13 information -- more technical information on what we would 14 be granting a variance on. And, are we -- would we be 15 granting a variance on the tank size or on the drainfield 16 construction? Or what is it that we're -- that we're -- we 17 obviously have -- I think, would have to be granting a 18 variance on tank size. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Simplistically, 20 Commissioner, I think we'd be granting a variance on the -- 21 on an un -- prior to unlicensed system, which is -- has been 22 defined now as undersized but functional, and the variance 23 would be for the license requirement. That's as I 24 understand it. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We're asking -- 71 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I guess my 2 question goes back to what I said earlier, is that we have 3 these two entities, both that -- one said that the system is 4 fine and one that says the system isn't fine. And, is 5 the -- is U.G.R.A.'s position that the system isn't fine 6 because the tank size is wrong? Or is it the system isn't 7 working right? And that's kind of the issue. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's find out. 9 MR. WIEDENFELD: In order to license a septic 10 system, it has to meet minimum state standards. A 11 license -- or a pumper, a septic pumper is not licensed or 12 qualified to make any assessment as to the type of septic 13 system or its condition. His license is to -- is to pump 14 the sewage out of a tank and transport it to a -- a 15 qualified position to dump it, and that's -- 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's the U.G.R.A. Does the 17 U.G.R.A. study report say that the system is not performing, 18 that it is failing? 19 MR. WIEDENFELD: I cannot make a statement as 20 to performance of a septic system. It is assumed that if it 21 is put in to minimum state standards, that it will function 22 properly. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: The question is, when you and 24 Mark Bowers went out there, did your report say that the 25 system was failing and not functioning properly, or did your 72 1 report say that the system did not meet the requirements? 2 MR. WIEDENFELD: It does not meet the 3 requirements, does not meet minimum state standards and -- 4 or to license a septic system. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, your report does not say 6 that it is failing, that it is not performing to handle the 7 waste? 8 MR. WIEDENFELD: Failing can mean many things 9 that were not inspected, that we did -- that the inspection 10 did not provide for in order for making -- in order for us 11 to make a determination accordingly. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Charlie, let me ask a 13 question here. In your paragraph, you say that he has a 14 490-gallon, single-compartment tank, and that is -- just 15 wait a minute -- that that is too small. What is the 16 number? What size of compartment -- 17 MR. WIEDENFELD: Today's standards require a 18 750-gallon, two-compartment tank. 19 MR. STACY: Today. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. And then 21 he has 40 linear feet of drainfield. How many feet is he 22 supposed to have? 23 MR. WIEDENFELD: Again, that depends on the 24 soil conditions, and in this type -- he has gravelly soils 25 and would have to replace it or do an alternative system, 73 1 which would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 linear 2 feet, 400. I couldn't give you an exact feet on that. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, it sounds like, to 4 me, the thing was built back in the whenevers, and it's come 5 through -- come through all these years and it's working 6 fine, but suddenly now we've -- we're going to require him 7 to go out and change his system to an alternative system. 8 For what reason? Because we -- today's standards? Today's 9 numbers? I don't get it. If it's not failing -- if it's 10 not failing, why are we going to require him to change, 11 Charlie? 12 MR. WIEDENFELD: Kerr County rule, Chapter 13 8.02, requires that upon intent to sell a piece of property, 14 a license is required. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's that rule 16 state? 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- I mean, under 19 our -- if the new rules are approved with T.N.R.C.C., this 20 issue would go away -- I mean, not go away, 'cause it's 21 under the old rules, but it would not be an issue under the 22 new rules, correct? 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Correct. 24 MS. SOVIL: Could I ask when that plat was 25 signed? In 1987? 74 1 MR. SOWELL: '86. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Gordon Morriss. 3 MS. SOVIL: '86, okay. Lane Wolters worked 4 for U.G.R.A. at that time, and they were issuing subdivision 5 licenses. I have one. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I believe it was '86. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: August 18th, 1986. 8 MS. SOVIL: They were issuing however many 9 licenses that subdivision needed, and it -- mine comes from 10 U.G.R.A. Whether I have an actual physical license in 11 U.G.R.A., I don't know. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What my -- what 13 little note of interest, then. Based on this case and what 14 we've heard today, if, as, and when you decide to sell your 15 property, you may have -- be confronted with a similar 16 problem. 17 MS. SOVIL: That's correct. But we are all 18 under the assumption we have licenses. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is there any reason 21 that this can't wait till our next session? Because I just 22 saw the backup stuff today for the first time, and I think 23 this is a very complicated -- and you see how thick it is. 24 I would really like to go through that before voting one way 25 or another. 75 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Making a decision. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have no problem 4 with that. We can put it back on. I think, in the interest 5 of trying to get to the -- to a fair solution, Mr. Sowell, 6 the other Commissioners want to have a chance to go through 7 this very thick file which I acquired from U.G.R.A. I had 8 an opportunity to read it, and it was available for others, 9 but time just didn't permit them to see it as conclusively 10 as I did or as completely as I did. So, I think, in the 11 interests of fairness, giving you a fair hearing and a fair 12 opportunity, we'll conclude this discussion today, and I 13 will put it back on the agenda for next Commissioners Court 14 meeting. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Sowell. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Let's take a break 19 until a quarter till. 20 (Recess taken from 10:35 a.m. to 10:45 a.m.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's call the meeting back 23 to order, if we can. Next item for consideration is Item 24 Number 5, consider and discuss request from the County 25 Engineer and/or County Attorney to communicate with 76 1 Wiedenfeld Water Works regarding restoration of individual 2 properties in county right-of-way. Commissioner Williams. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This may sound like 4 it's pick-on-Charlie day. It's not intended to be that way. 5 However, I have a situation out in Precinct 2 in Verde Park 6 Estates where Wiedenfeld Water Works dug up the county 7 right-of-way and driveways and so forth, and to this date 8 have not been restored back, I think some six months after 9 we tabled a variance request from Mr. Wiedenfeld on behalf 10 of his water company. I keep getting calls all the time 11 about the fact that this right-of-way and these properties 12 have not been restored. I've spoken with the County 13 Engineer about it, Franklin, and he and I both have been out 14 there. Here are some pictures taken by the County Engineer 15 as of Friday. Is that correct? 16 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was out there last 18 Monday to be sure that what I was about to put on the agenda 19 was correct, and so I saw what these pictures depict myself, 20 and I think it's high time we get the right-of-way restored 21 to the condition in which it was found. And, if we cannot 22 get it restored, then perhaps -- if a letter from the County 23 Engineer can't do the trick, perhaps a letter from the 24 County Attorney can do the trick. That's the purpose of 25 this meeting on the agenda. 77 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let me ask a question, 2 Commissioner. Was -- to what depth was the water lines 3 installed? We did not take action on the variance request? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you ought to 5 direct that to the engineer. I don't know. How deep did 6 they finally get installed? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, they didn't call us to 8 make an inspection, so I -- I'd have to ask Charlie and see 9 what depth they put it. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How deep were they 11 installed, Mr. Wiedenfeld? 12 MR. WIEDENFELD: They were installed to your 13 requirements, and in this case, it was 42 inches deep for 14 the laying of 6-inch lines. Done by Guadalupe Wastewater's 15 24-inch rock saw. And, I was not aware that there was a 16 variance granted on this permit as -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There was a variance 18 request that was denied. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Tabled. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or was tabled. It 21 wasn't denied, it was tabled, referred back to the County 22 Engineer. This was on June 26th of last year. It was 23 denied. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, the -- is the 25 issue here -- 78 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is the issue here, 3 then, to cover this -- smooth out the covering and get 4 everything covered up and -- and whatever it takes to get 5 the right-of-way back to -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think Mr. 7 Wiedenfeld should address the Court on this issue. Come up. 8 MR. WIEDENFELD: Charles Wiedenfeld, 9 representative of Wiedenfeld Water Works. Just to brief you 10 as to where we're at on -- in improvements up there, is that 11 we're in the last stage of installing two 6-inch water lines 12 that went from the well or the elevated storage down 13 approximately 800 feet in some places. It utilized the 14 County's right-of-way, and at other places we just got 15 inside the owners' property easement. What you see in front 16 of you, probably the most flagrant problem we still have is 17 that in the bend of the road -- pretty good slope. In going 18 down that hill, we still have yet to abandon the old water 19 line. It -- we're still awaiting finishing of the drilling 20 of the well, which is -- and moving of some other equipment 21 up at the well site, which are beyond my control. And -- 22 and, like I say, that drilling of the well has taken way too 23 long. The rig is still sitting there. But, they have -- 24 they've had problems that drillers have. 25 I fully recognize that -- that going down 79 1 that slope, there's still some boulders possibly 15, 20 feet 2 off the -- the road's pavement that need to be replaced 3 where they were, and then need to be hand-smoothed and all 4 that and seeded. The seed has been obtained, and it will -- 5 the whole right-of-way, the roads and everything, will be 6 seeded for the remainder of all that project. That has been 7 hand-raked several times, and that's where we are at this 8 time. We have, like I say, a fire hydrant that is just 9 inside the county right-of-way, and -- and an area right 10 there that we have -- we have the pipes exposed. It's up on 11 the side of a -- a hill, next to the fence. I don't believe 12 we're going to have any traffic problems there. And, again, 13 that -- that tie-in is going to happen all at the same time, 14 when the well is complete and the equipment up at the well 15 site, in order to not have people out of water for the most 16 minimal period. 17 The benefit the County's getting in this 18 project is now you have a clean right-of-way. You have 19 water lines that are going to be taken out that were 20 6 inches deep that y'all couldn't actually put any -- any 21 kind of a -- a berm or drainage on the side of it, because 22 you would have been hitting the water line. And, so, this 23 is about 800 feet of -- of abandoned, and this will be 24 removed in some sections, the most shallowest portions 25 there, that I think then it will benefit the County in those 80 1 regards. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Realizing that you 3 don't have control of all the schedule that you talked 4 about, what would be your estimate now for completion of all 5 the work and -- and I realize it's an estimate, but what -- 6 what would be your estimate now for all of the reseeding and 7 everything, finished, done? 8 MR. WIEDENFELD: Well, optimistically, the 9 well driller says he's going to be finished this week, but 10 I've heard that for the last three months, so I'm not going 11 to say anything. I have scheduled for the -- the equipment 12 swap over up at the well site; the other should be this 13 week. And, I -- having decent weather, I would think two 14 weeks, this would -- this will be all gone away. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My question, 16 following up on Commissioner Griffin's, Charlie, is that if 17 you're having problems relating to equipment or whatever you 18 need to complete the job -- and I guess what you're 19 referencing has to do with the fire hydrant and where you're 20 going to cross the road, put new pipe; is that correct? 21 MR. WIEDENFELD: I'm -- there's no more road 22 crossings. I'm tying into an existing line that's already 23 crossing the road, so -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, my question has 25 to do with all this erosion that's taking place above the 81 1 fire hydrant, all of these rocks and boulders and so forth 2 which are still cluttering the right-of-way. And, the calls 3 I get are from people whose driveways they say you cut and 4 didn't restore to the condition that you found them. Those 5 are all above this area, and so I need to hear from you what 6 is the reasonable time that you will take care of these 7 issues above the fire hydrant, and how long will it take you 8 to fill in the trenches in the area of the fire hydrant? 9 That's what I need to hear. 10 MR. WIEDENFELD: I've got a letter from a 11 customer -- I guess a neighbor to the person that 12 Mr. Williams has been getting most of his complaints from. 13 It's sealed. I do not know what it is, but she was willing 14 to submit something, and it addresses the -- I feel, 15 addresses the condition of the road prior to and after my 16 construction, in order to get a -- just -- like I said, I 17 don't know what it is, but I'm submitting it to the Court. 18 And -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is to us? 20 MR. WIEDENFELD: But I know in verbal talking 21 with her in the past, she had indicated that the road 22 conditions were a whole lot better than what they were prior 23 to any of the construction. So -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Williams, 25 has -- has the County Engineer contacted Mr. Wiedenfeld and 82 1 asked him about a timeframe of restoring the county 2 right-of-way? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Franklin, have you -- 4 tell us what -- where you are in that, Franklin. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, as I recall, we had 6 talked a couple times. I think we had sent him a memo and 7 talked to him on the phone a time or two. 8 MR. WIEDENFELD: I have yet to receive any 9 written correspondence -- written correspondence as to the 10 condition or that it does not meet county standards, the 11 construction. Other than we have had verbal communication 12 with that corner down there where you see that -- and I 13 admit that there are some boulders that are off on the side. 14 And, again, the reason it's there is 'cause there's a water 15 line that is just inches under the soil, and thus I'm 16 planning, when I abandon it hopefully in the next two weeks, 17 that that pipeline will come out, and thus there will be -- 18 then we can restore that whole piece of property in that 19 area. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner, let me make a 21 suggestion, if I can. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Surely. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Why don't we just determine 24 right now that we'll put this back on the agenda in 30 days? 25 And, if the situation has been alleviated, then it won't 83 1 need to come back. If it hasn't, then we'll put it on, with 2 the understanding that we'll ask the County Attorney to take 3 whatever action is necessary in order to make sure that the 4 right-of-way is restored. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sounds reasonable to 6 me. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's fine. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That makes sense. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thirty days. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, ma'am? Come forward and 11 address us, please. 12 MS. PERSON: My name is Shirley Person, and 13 my husband and I wrote that letter. And, I have no love 14 lost for Charlie. We've been fighting since '94. But I 15 know for a fact that Mr. Persell's drive where -- where his 16 water meter is at, the school bus turns around there every 17 year, all year round. And, when it rains, his driveway 18 there by the -- the water meter, which is what Mr. Persell 19 is complaining about, I'm sure, is the same as it has been 20 for the past four years. He's never done anything to his 21 driveway. Charlie has improved our roadway. We tried for 22 four years to get the County to come out and cut the -- the 23 trash down so you could see up around the corner, and we 24 never could get them to do it. And, we've called and 25 complained, but nothing was ever done. Charlie has improved 84 1 the roadway there. It's not his fault that it's raining. 2 It's not his fault that it's muddy. The boulders had to 3 come out to lay the line; there's no other way that he could 4 lay the line, but you can't get a -- something in there to 5 pick the boulders up without getting it stuck at this point, 6 you know. Charlie is trying to improve our water system up 7 there. He put us in a fire hydrant so that our insurance 8 would go down. We're closer to it. The water tower's 9 sitting in my front yard. It's not his fault that the 10 drillers have lost their drilling bit or whatever else it is 11 down in them holes, and they had to cap the well and then 12 move over there and drill another one. It's not his fault. 13 Although I'd like to blame him for it. 14 (Laughter.) 15 MS. PERSON: Hopefully, we will have a better 16 quality of water with this new well. He's only trying to 17 improve on what we have. That's all I really have to say. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, 20 Mrs. Person. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not my purpose 22 to create a neighborhood spat here, but I think the Judge's 23 suggestion is valid. We'll put it back on -- 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Bring it back in 30 days. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- in 30 days. 85 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Charlie. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item is Item Number 6, 4 consider and discuss the request for reduction of County 5 registration during Rabies Vaccination Drive February 3rd to 6 17th. Our Animal Control Officer, Mr. Marc Allen. 7 MR. ALLEN: It's time for our annual Rabies 8 Drive again. I'm here to ask the Court if we can reduce 9 the -- the registration fee from $5 -- or $2 down to $1 10 during this period of time, from February 3rd to 11 February 17th. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 16 seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court approve 17 reducing the County registration fee during Rabies 18 Vaccination Drive February 3rd to 17th, from $5 to $1. 19 MR. ALLEN: Thank you. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are the -- are the 22 vets coming together to give reduced -- 23 MR. ALLEN: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- prices again this 25 year? 86 1 MR. ALLEN: I'm here representing all the 2 veterinarians. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, cool. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 5 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. If the Court 10 will indulge me, I think we could kind of skip over some of 11 these that don't have people waiting on us. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's go to Number 2.10, 14 consider and discuss change of the 9 step -- 9/1 custodian 15 to the 12/1 utility maintenance for the Sheriff's Department 16 and Jail. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, let's go on to 18 Number 11. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's not mine, Buster. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's Mr. Holekamp. 21 Mr. Holekamp? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Still no, let's go on 23 to Number 11. 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. What -- the little note 25 in there requesting the classification change, is there any 87 1 questions as to how I arrived at that? Is there any 2 questions about that? 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: A question I have is 4 regarding budget impact. 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: None. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Your -- don't do that to me. 7 I believe your information indicates there's no budget 8 impact this year. 9 MR. HOLEKAMP: That is correct. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: What does it have in future 11 years? 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: It should not have any, 13 because there would be a surplus, which I propose to put in 14 part-time money, because we did not have a position at the 15 jail this last year. And, if we leave the position as a 16 12/1, it would not impact my total salary budget lines, even 17 for next year. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 21 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 22 approve the change for the 9/1 custodian to the 12/1 utility 23 maintenance for Sheriff's Department and Jail. Any 24 questions or comments? Commissioner Letz? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question is, I mean, 88 1 what are you losing to make up this difference? I mean, 2 you're obviously -- I mean -- 3 MR. HOLEKAMP: Losing a custodian position to 4 get a maintenance custodian position. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But, you're going 6 to be losing a 9/1 and gaining a 12/1. 7 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How does that not cost 9 more in future years? 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: There is $9,000 in salary for 11 -- without a position at the jail. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Part-time. That's 13 part-time. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you're going to 15 reduce your part-time in future years? 16 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all I wanted. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: As soon as he said 19 that -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Now you're on the 21 record. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We worked an agreement. 23 We have trustees and that doing most of the cleaning and 24 maintenance at the jail, the way I think it should have 25 always been, which has helped alleviate some of Glenn's 89 1 maintenance problems. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, thank you. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 4 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you, 9 Glenn. 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: Thank you. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item is Item Number 11, 12 consider and discuss authorizing Sheriff to organize 13 committee to propose long-range master plan for the Kerr 14 County Sheriff's Office. Sheriff Hierholzer. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'll make it real quick. 16 The Sheriff's Office has never developed a long-range master 17 plan for budgetary purposes or growth purposes, and I feel 18 it's definitely needed, something that we've needed for a 19 long time. We have some serious problems with record 20 management, record retention, how we're going to solve those 21 problems in the future, that definitely will impact future 22 budget considerations and that. And I just think, on 23 growth, with the new census coming out and everything else, 24 we really need to start looking at some long-range plans. 25 What I would like to propose is that I, as 90 1 Sheriff, would have the authority to appoint two members to 2 this committee, who would most likely be law enforcement 3 members, maybe from D.P.S., maybe from Kerrville P.D., 4 somebody that has some -- some good law enforcement 5 background. And then would I like to ask each Commissioner 6 and the County Judge to appoint one person each to the 7 committee from your respective districts and overall to help 8 us. That would cover your interest in where we're going, 9 but we'd have a good balance of developing a long-range plan 10 for the department. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How long do you think 12 this committee should deliberate, and when would you want 13 them to report back? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not having done this 15 before, I really don't know. I'd like to see who all the 16 appointments are first, and have an organizational-type 17 meeting, set that up with those appointments and let them -- 18 let them see what we have out there. We could take a little 19 bit of time, see exactly where we are, where we've been, so 20 that we could work together in developing one. I'd like to 21 have it in place for this budget year, but I just don't know 22 at this point. Depending on the make-up of the committee 23 how that would work. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a good idea. 25 I just think -- the only comment I would have would be to 91 1 put together a very specific, you know, timeline chart; what 2 do you charge -- what do you want the committee to do? I 3 think it's a good idea, and I appreciate you coming to us 4 and getting representatives from each precinct. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: When would you like to have 7 -- assuming that we adopt this, when would you like to have 8 the Commissioners Court representatives identified for -- 9 for -- 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'd like to have that in 11 the next few days, this week sometime, to where we could 12 really start as soon as possible to where they could contact 13 me next week or something. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anybody else have any -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Meaning it would be 16 on the next Commissioners Court agenda for appointment? Is 17 that what you're suggesting? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I don't know if 19 you need -- I just need representatives that y'all would 20 approve, to where I could go ahead and start meeting with 21 them and we could go ahead and start working, and not 22 necessarily have it back on another court agenda. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: What the Sheriff is 24 suggesting is that, by establishing this committee, we are 25 authorizing each Commissioner and myself to appoint someone, 92 1 and the Sheriff is saying he would like to have those 2 appointments by, let's say, a week from today? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That would be great. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: So that he can then have the 5 first organizational meeting. It's something that would not 6 necessarily have to come back to Court, although I'm sure 7 the Sheriff would report back to us as to the makeup of the 8 committee, just for our information, either by letter or by 9 coming back to the Court. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Correct. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: In doing -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have already turned 13 my appointment in to the Sheriff. Of course, that's why 14 we're Number 1. Judge, I move that we authorize the Sheriff 15 to organize a committee to prepare a long-range master plan 16 for the Kerr County Sheriff's Department. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: I presume that motion 18 includes authorizing the Sheriff to appoint two and each 19 Commissioner and the County Judge to appoint one member? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Your assumption is 21 correct, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 24 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 25 authorize the Sheriff to organize a committee to prepare a 93 1 long-range master plan for the Kerr County Sheriff's Office, 2 the committee to be comprised of two members appointed by 3 the Sheriff and one member appointed by each Commissioner 4 and by the County Judge. Any further questions or comments? 5 If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 10 12, consider and discuss authorizing Sheriff's Office to 11 apply to the Bureau of Justice for a Vest Partnership Grant. 12 Sheriff? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What this is, I think 14 y'all will see, I'm very much in favor of applying for 15 grants and trying to get grants to help the Department out 16 in financial ways that the County, you know, would really be 17 putting too much on. We have a large number of bulletproof 18 vests that are outdated, have expired. They are what they 19 call a "Class 2" type, which will not stop high-powered 20 rifles or things like that. What I'm proposing is enough in 21 this grant to purchase 20 new bulletproof vests for patrol 22 officers that are out there -- these are the most updated 23 and a class of vests that are lightweight, where they're not 24 uncomfortable to wear, but they will stop -- they have the 25 stopping power of higher-caliber weapons than what our 94 1 officers are currently wearing. The -- it is a matching 2 fund grant, where the Department of Justice will pay 3 50 percent. The Department has to pay the other 50 percent, 4 and where I'm proposing to get that -- that 50 percent that 5 we're responsible for is, we did receive an $11,000 grant 6 last month that is currently -- we have the money in the 7 budget now, or in the -- in the Sheriff's Office now to pay 8 for the remaining 50 percent that we would have to pay for, 9 so it would not be any cost to the County. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What was the other grant? 11 Was it to purchase equipment? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Purchase equipment. 13 That's what it was intended for, and we started out by -- 14 we've had two of those grants. One, we purchased 15 30-some-odd new portable radios for our new system, 16 hopefully, that will come up next Commissioners Court. This 17 will allow me to finish purchasing those portable radios, 18 which I don't need but about four or five more, and will 19 still leave us more than enough to -- to pay the 50 percent 20 of this grant. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second, with a 23 comment. That the Sheriff is fulfilling promises to the 24 community to go out and get grants, which he talked about 25 that numerous times in his campaign, and we are seeing a man 95 1 of integrity, a man of his word. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner Letz, 3 seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court authorize 4 the Sheriff's Department to apply to the Bureau of Justice 5 for a Vest Partnership Grant. Any questions or comments? 6 If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item number 11 13, consider and discuss authorizing the Sheriff's Office to 12 apply for a grant from AACOG. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This is an AACOG grant 14 proposal that we're asking -- when we received the 15 280-something-thousand-dollar grant to pay for the School 16 Resource Officers, which they are all in place and all doing 17 their functions now, that grant pays for only the salaries 18 of those officers. It does not pay for equipment or 19 training. The -- and we're required to send those officers 20 through some School Resource training, and that 21 amount that's coming up in March that we have to send them 22 to is about $450 per officer. It's going through a 23 week-long training that's required. But I also would like 24 to, at the same time, apply for enough funds in that -- this 25 total grant amount is $35,000, which will give them laptop 96 1 computers, it will give them a display-type deal where they 2 can use a projector that's hooked up to the laptops to give 3 presentations at the schools, because this School Resource 4 Officers -- we are also taking on -- Tivy already has it. 5 We teach law enforcement classes to the juniors and seniors 6 at Tivy High School. We're going to adopt that and teach 7 them at the other schools in the district, and this is just 8 equipment that will definitely help and benefit those 9 officers in teaching those classes at the schools. Again, 10 there is no matching funds on this grant; we're applying for 11 the full amount. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many do you think 13 you can acquire for $35,000? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The actual projection 15 type is between $7,000 and $10,000, depending on what you 16 want. Then the training for each year after that, you're 17 talking $450 each. The laptop computers, if you get 18 top-of-the-line, which we'll just have to look at what we 19 get, you're talking about between $2,000 and $3,000 on 20 those. And then there's going to be some other training 21 schools that we'll want to be able to send these people to. 22 And, as y'all saw on the bills this morning, it's not just 23 the tuition of the school, itself, that costs us a lot of 24 money; it's also the hotel reservations and stay. So, what 25 we have projected out is $35,000 to cover most of this 97 1 stuff. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff, if you were 3 to get the grant, would you -- do you plan to let our 4 resident expert on the left down here take a look at the 5 type of equipment you had in mind, see if it's what you 6 really need or if there's a better model at a lesser cost? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Definitely. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In addition to that, I'll 9 make basically the same comment, that we need to -- even 10 though this is a grant, your department needs to make sure 11 it fits in with the overall County purchasing of equipment 12 of this nature so that it wouldn't -- when you decide you 13 don't need it or may get something new, it can go somewhere 14 else and -- 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, this is definitely 16 tied totally to the School Resource Officers, and the whole 17 thing there is the grant that provided the officers does not 18 provide any equipment or training. I'm trying to get the 19 best equipment so we can teach the kids in the school and 20 use it appropriately. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: County Judge signs 23 this? 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I make the motion that 98 1 we authorize the Sheriff's Office to prepare the grant 2 and -- and authorize County Judge to sign same. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 5 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 6 authorize the Sheriff's Office to apply for a grant from 7 AACOG for training purposes for the S.R.O.'s, and authorize 8 County Judge to sign same. Any further questions or 9 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 10 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item is 14 Item Number 14, consider and discuss authorizing Sheriff's 15 Department to apply to the Peterson Foundation for a grant. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This is another grant 17 that is paid for totally if we get the grant. There's no 18 matching funds on the County. But, what this is for is 19 something I feel the Department definitely needs. We have 20 1,100 square miles in the county, and sometimes three 21 officers on duty at a time. They may be 50 miles apart or 22 whatever. What this grant will cover is the purchase and 23 placement of video cameras and equipment inside each patrol 24 car, which these are not just your normal video cameras that 25 you can buy at the store for $500 or $600. This is a VHS 99 1 unit that the actual components of it are locked in a locked 2 box mounted in the trunk of the vehicle. 3 The camera itself is mounted by the 4 windshield off the -- the roof of the vehicle. It has a 5 remote control, that every time they turn on the red lights, 6 the camera comes on. It also has an internal microphone 7 that is mounted inside the vehicle to record everything, 8 conversations in the vehicle, and it has one that the 9 officer carries with him that is carried on the side and 10 mounted to his shirt. The microphone equipment not only can 11 come on when the officer wants it to come on, when he makes 12 a stop, but if we're at a family violence situation, patrol 13 car's parked out front, the officer is in the house and 14 things get a little bit uncontrolled in the residence or 15 whatever during family violence, he can flip his remote 16 control and it will record all that audio going on inside 17 the house on just an audio track on that equipment. That 18 does not record the visual, 'cause the car is out in the 19 street, but it does record the audio. 20 I think, one, it will demand more 21 professionalism by the officers, because you do have to 22 watch what you say and how you act. And, two, it will 23 definitely decrease the amount of court appearances we are 24 making and the cases that get backlogged in the courts, 25 because, you know, a picture's worth a thousand words. It's 100 1 kind of the same. If you have it on video, it's going to 2 save us time. Plus -- and I hope and pray this never 3 happens, but if we do have an officer hurt seriously or 4 injured in the line of duty while he's out there when his 5 backup's, you know, 50 miles away or something, we hopefully 6 will have some documentation on where to go to solve that 7 type of offense. The total grant amount is $92,000 -- 8 $92,925, and that is for 25 of those units for the patrol 9 cars. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Questions or comments? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My only comment is 12 that I'm certainly in favor of all these things, but I just 13 want to remind the Commissioners Court that, at some point, 14 these laptop computers and video equipment will break down, 15 and Kerr County owns those things and we'll be -- when he 16 comes back and says, "We need to replace these things," 17 don't forget where they came from. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Jannett? 19 MS. PIEPER: I have a comment to make in 20 relation to this, and I don't know if the Sheriff is aware 21 of it. Once he gets videos in his vehicles and his deputies 22 make a stop for D.W.I., any vehicle that has a video in it, 23 there is an automatic $25 assessed on that court cost for 24 the video fee, and then this would help for his upkeep on 25 the videos. 101 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's good. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's mainly replacing 3 the tapes. These use VHS tapes, just the same thing you use 4 in your VCR at home. The reason is, the cost of those tapes 5 is a lot shorter -- or a lot smaller than the cost for the 6 8-millimeters and different tape equipment like that. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would the technology 8 coming -- I mean, do they make them on disk, like -- 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I haven't seen any of 10 those yet, but I'm sure somebody's out there working on it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- DVD things? 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Put it on DVD. In 13 fact, they're coming out with some very small ones. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If he gets a 15 digital-type camera, that's a possibility, if they become 16 digitized. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It may be one of these 18 things that, you know, you may look into decreasing the 19 number and maybe increasing the type of camera, try to get 20 the current technology. A lot of VHS is going to be going 21 obsolete before too long. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You may be right, but in 23 patrol vehicles, a lot of it isn't. This is the most 24 up-to-date they have at this time. These -- this equipment 25 is a little over $3,600 each, for each vehicle. 102 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think the 2 Commissioner makes a good point. You know, if you get -- if 3 you get VHS-type cameras and you're dealing with film, then 4 you're talking about other equipment that has to process or 5 just -- or show the pictures for you all the way though. 6 You can't run them as a camera. But, if you were to get the 7 digitized types or digitized cameras, you can feed right 8 directly into the computer, get the image up on a screen. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The more up-to-date are, 10 like, your 8-millimeter and that minicam. The thing is the 11 cost per time of the tape running. The VHS is about -- I 12 think it's something like 32 cents per hour, where, compared 13 to the other ones, it's $1, $2 per hour. On the cost of 14 maintaining -- 'cause once we start doing this, I put that 15 much -- that many cameras in vehicles, the cost of the 16 tapes, themselves, is going to be, you know, in my opinion, 17 pretty significant. Then I'm going to have to budget for 18 it. Plus, you want to be able to reuse those tapes after a 19 while. These are 8-hour tapes that we're talking about in 20 these, to where it will constantly be recording different 21 deals. They don't have to change it out every time. Change 22 it at the end of the shift or do whatever, and keep things 23 on record. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the projected life 25 of these units? Ten years? Five years? 103 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: About 10 years. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Purchase would be 4 through the State? Or -- 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We went around -- no, we 6 went around through a number of different vendors to see 7 what -- and agencies to figure out what they were using, 8 what they liked, because there are all different types. The 9 price we got was from a vendor. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: This will have to be bid 11 unless it's through a State-approved vendor. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree, it would have 13 to, but I've got to apply for -- 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Unless it's through a 15 State-approved vendor, if it's on the State-approved list. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's the beauty of 17 that. You get a good price and you don't have to compete 18 it. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would move that the 21 Court authorize the Sheriff's Department to file a grant 22 application with the Hal and Charlie Peterson Foundation for 23 a grant to cover the cost of equipping our Sheriff's 24 Department auto fleet with video cameras. You're saying -- 25 I'm taking time out. You're saying an exact amount of 104 1 $92,925? Why don't we just leave that blank, let him file 2 the -- in the court order, should we authorize an exact 3 amount? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We have the grant 5 application filled out, which the Judge would sign, and it 6 is for $92,925. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For $92,925. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion made by Commissioner 10 Williams, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 11 authorize the Sheriff's Department to apply to the Hal and 12 Charlie Peterson Foundation for a grant in the amount of 13 $92,925, to be used to purchase video units for each patrol 14 vehicle. Any further questions or comments? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And to allow you to sign 16 the same. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: And allow me to sign the 18 same. If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you, 23 Sheriff. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank y'all. This is 25 the AACOG original, and this is the Peterson Foundation. 105 1 The bulletproof vests is an online thing. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Let's take up Item 17, 3 consider and discuss approving an order establishing a teen 4 curfew in Kerr County and set a public hearing on the same. 5 A little bit of history on this. As required by -- by law, 6 the Kerr County Juvenile Board appointed a Kerr County 7 Juvenile Advisory Council composed of 9 members. Those 8 members are Phil Demasco, representing public schools; David 9 Motley, representing prosecutors; Dr. Lisa Rouse; Dr. Jaime 10 Quintanilla, as a juvenile psychiatric physician; Harold 11 Danford; Tricia Hamil; Mack McKinney, who is now the pastor 12 of the Center Point Methodist Church; Wayne Este; and Mary 13 Armistead. 14 The Kerr County Juvenile Advisory Council has 15 met for over a year, discussed a number of ways and programs 16 to assist the Kerr County Juvenile Board in addressing the 17 problems of our young people. And, one of the issues they 18 debated and discussed, with input from the Sheriff's 19 Department, Kerr County Police Department, Kerrville Police 20 Department, and the school districts, was the idea of a teen 21 curfew. We -- you all may not know it, but the City of 22 Ingram has had in place for a number of -- a couple years a 23 teen curfew, and it was discussed with people from Ingram, 24 the effect of that curfew, in making their decision. The 25 Kerr County Advisory Council unanimously recommended to the 106 1 Kerr County Juvenile Board consideration of the teen curfew. 2 Kerr County Juvenile Board voted unanimously to recommend it 3 to the Commissioners Court, which is why it is before us 4 today. 5 In your packets and handout this morning are 6 letters from each of the three main school districts, 7 meaning Kerrville Independent School District, Ingram 8 Independent School District, and Center Point Independent 9 School District, supporting the idea of a teen curfew. 10 Additionally, I believe the Sheriff is here today to speak 11 on the issue, as well as Mr. Stanton from the Kerr County 12 Juvenile Probation Department. And, Mr. Este is here and 13 Mr. Motley, as members of the Kerr County Juvenile Advisory 14 Council. Wayne, do you have anything you want to add at 15 this time, sir? 16 MR. ESTE: I don't have anything prepared, 17 but you know I could talk at any time. You know that. When 18 we started with this committee, as the Judge said, over a 19 year ago, we had no direction whatsoever, and that's how 20 lots of good committees start. But, one thing we did find, 21 after talking with a number of law enforcement people, that 22 there is a need for a curfew -- teen curfew in the county. 23 Not to go out and harass kids, but to give law enforcement 24 another tool to work with when those kids are driving around 25 at 2 o'clock in the morning looking for something to do in 107 1 Kerr County. Now, I've driven through Kerr County at 2 2 o'clock in the morning, and I can't find anything to do. 3 So, you know, when -- when you find something to do at 4 2 o'clock in the morning in Kerr County, it's usually not 5 that good. So, it gives -- it gives the officers a tool. 6 I've interviewed personally a number of -- of 7 law enforcement officers, and every one of them has said 8 yes, yes, yes, we need this. I talked with Rowan Zachry in 9 Ingram, and, of course, as you know, it was stated earlier, 10 Ingram does have a teen curfew. And, again, it has given 11 them the tool to stop kids along the way and -- and, you 12 know, when you're talking about below 17, as Rowan Zachry 13 says, we have picked up kids in the street as young as 9 and 14 10 years old at 1:00, 2 o'clock in the morning. There -- 15 there are areas of the community where this is more of a 16 problem than other areas, but it is a community-wide 17 problem -- or county-wide problem. And, I just -- as I 18 said, I didn't come prepared with anything, so I'll end it 19 there. Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wayne, let me ask 21 you -- 22 MR. ESTE: Yes, sir? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you part of the 24 Ingram group? 25 MR. ESTE: The Ingram group? No, sir, I live 108 1 in Hunt. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does Ingram have -- I 3 understand that, but does Ingram -- Ingram has one already? 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Has a curfew. 5 MR. ESTE: Yes. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: The City of Ingram has an 7 existing curfew, yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is it the same thing 9 that is outlined in this document? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 11 MR. ESTE: Very close. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: We modeled this document on 13 the Ingram one, because theirs works and because we needed 14 consistency throughout the county. 15 MR. ESTE: And, of course -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: City of Kerrville? 17 MR. ESTE: That's the hope. That is the 18 hope. And, we have -- we have received support from several 19 law -- several law enforcement officers in Kerrville, that 20 this is something that they would like to see as well. Now, 21 it has to go through the same process as I'm sure it has to 22 go through here, but it's -- it is in their favor, yes. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, this would be in 24 all unincorporated areas? 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct. 109 1 MR. ESTE: In the county. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My only problem -- I'm 3 sorry, Judge, did you have something else? 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, do you have anything 5 else for Wayne? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Now, Kevin, do 8 you want to make some comments? 9 MR. STANTON: For this -- for this grant -- 10 or not for the -- for this proposal, I did some research on 11 the past referrals to the Juvenile Probation Department, and 12 within the last -- I went back as far as the last three 13 months, and our referrals come out to about 58 percent of 14 the referrals that we received over the last three months 15 fall within the curfew hours, which means that the offenses 16 occurred between the hours for which the curfew would be in 17 effect. I think that equaled out to about -- I think it was 18 about 107 referrals in the last three months that we 19 received that fell within the hours of the curfew. So, that 20 would -- I think that's a good sign that there are -- there 21 is a need in the community for this curfew, something 22 that -- there are kids out there committing criminal 23 offenses during the hours the curfew would be in effect. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I see Mr. Holt over 25 there from Center Point School District in the audience. 110 1 Harry, do you have some thoughts on this? 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: I was just going to get to 3 him. Harry, do you have anything you want to say at this 4 time, sir? 5 MR. HOLT: Main thing I can add is, I have 6 worked at night and I have seen myself young kids, as young 7 as 8, 9 years old, on the streets at all hours of the night. 8 I've had the opportunity to manage a convenience store there 9 in Center Point where I had to close it at night and open it 10 in the mornings and stuff, and as early as 5 o'clock in the 11 morning, they're out running the streets. And, I do support 12 it myself, and I think it's something that the county needs. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Harry. I 14 appreciate it. Sheriff? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, being, I guess, 16 the chief law enforcement officer, but also being a parent 17 of four kids -- thank goodness, three of them are above the 18 age this curfew would affect now. But, I have mixed 19 feelings. For law enforcement, it would be the best tool we 20 could have to -- to help combat some -- some problems we do 21 have, such as, you know, the cemetery incident where we had 22 over $120,000 in damage. You know, the curfew would 23 probably definitely take care of some of that. It will give 24 the street officer more -- more tools or more ability to be 25 able to deal with kids that are out late where they 111 1 shouldn't be. But I also don't like the idea that we're 2 becoming the parents. I think it -- it's a deal that 3 parents should be responsible for, but as we all know, in 4 today's times that doesn't always happen. 5 And it will also cause some problems as far 6 as -- I know the kids are exempt from school activities, 7 coming back from a football game or a church activity, but 8 it will not prevent their getting stopped and detained long 9 enough to be able to find out where they're coming from and 10 that, which could be an interference on their part, but you 11 know it's going to happen. I think there's got to be a lot 12 of common sense in how it's written and how it's applied. I 13 think that if our -- if the County does it and before they 14 finally enact it, I think it needs to go right along 15 hand-in-hand with the one Ingram has and the one the City of 16 Kerrville does. Because if the County does one and the City 17 of Kerrville does not, the County's going to be pushing the 18 kids inside the city limits, and if City of Kerrville does 19 one and the County doesn't, then the City's going to be 20 pushing all the party kids and all into this small group of 21 kids out in the county, and so it's going to create a burden 22 on either one as -- if everybody doesn't adopt it county- 23 wide. It's the only way I think it would work effectively. 24 And, you know, my bottom line is, I hate to 25 see more and more laws keep getting enacted. I think we 112 1 have a good juvenile system and I think we have, for the 2 most part, a lot of real good kids. And, unfortunately, 3 there's just a small group that may cause all of us to have 4 to rethink the way we do things. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: You're being an economist on 6 us here. The bottom line -- 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm bouncing back and 8 forth. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is the Sheriff's Department 10 in favor of the notion of a curfew? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For law enforcement 12 purposes, yes, we are in favor of it. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I totally agree with you that 14 this is something that it's regrettable we have to do, but 15 it's in the line of the burn ban and some of the other 16 things that we have to face. You know, one of the young 17 people that I sent to the Texas Youth Commission last 18 Thursday was a 15-year-old, 15 years old and had 16 19 referrals to the Kerr County Juvenile Probation Department. 20 Now, keep in mind, we don't start getting referrals until 21 they're 10, so this young person had 16 referrals in five 22 years. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, in the same tone, 24 the curfew's not going to help a kid like that. It's the 25 parents that are the problem of that kid. 113 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: But, it's -- one thing it's 2 going to do is get the parents involved, because when the 3 child's picked up, the parents are going to get a phone 4 call, and the parent's going to have to come down to the -- 5 at least initially, the Justice of the Peace court and 6 address the issue. It's going to give the parent a basis to 7 get involved if they want to. If they don't want to, we -- 8 we can't help them. The other thing it's going to do is 9 protect some of our local merchants. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It will protect our 11 merchants. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Some of them. Like I 13 say, depends on getting the parents involved. My wife being 14 a teacher in the Kerrville school system, you know, they 15 have what they call ARDs or counseling meetings with kids 16 where they try and get the parents to be there to really get 17 involved with the kid's school practices, and I'm sure the 18 school people will admit a lot of times the parents won't 19 even show up for those kind of -- type of things. But, I 20 think it will put the parents on notice, because they will 21 have to appear in justice court for that. And, you know, 22 there are some situations -- I, as a patrol officer, years 23 ago got in one of the worst pursuits I'd ever been in that 24 was started about 3 o'clock in the morning, and ended after 25 running through a fence and everything else on top of Medina 114 1 Mountain. Had two wanted felons in the front of the 2 vehicle, and in the back seat, laying on the floorboard -- 3 and this is a pursuit that went over 120 miles an hour out 4 16 South. In the backseat on the floorboard were three 5 kids, the oldest of which was 11, and they were not 6 relatives of the people driving. They were all out running 7 around, doing donuts on the golf courses and getting into 8 criminal mischief stuff. And, it -- that shouldn't have 9 ever happened. Those kids should have never been out. So, 10 I -- you know, it's from -- going from a parent to the chief 11 law enforcement officer. From a parent, I hate to see it 12 have to be done. From the chief law enforcement officer of 13 the county, it's -- unfortunately, it's past due. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Go ahead. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just think -- I view it 17 -- I see it as a further erosion of personal rights, 18 individual freedoms, and parental responsibility. And I 19 think the more this society goes down this road, the less 20 responsible our kids are going to become. And I think that 21 it's just -- we're going in the wrong direction. And, this 22 same argument -- this same thing, you can also say we 23 shouldn't have any guns in this society. Forget the 24 Constitution, forget freedom, forget personal rights. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, the only other 115 1 thing I would say to that, Commissioner, is one thing 2 that -- that we really need to look at in Kerr County that's 3 very, very important right now, we have some want-to-be gang 4 members. We have some -- some, you know, potential gangs. 5 We do not have near the problems San Antonio does. I think 6 it's starting to migrate this way, and this is a way of 7 saying we also have zero tolerance on that activity; that we 8 will get out at night and start dealing with that before we 9 have some bad problems. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with that, 11 Sheriff, and also agree with some of what Commissioner Letz 12 said. I think, you know, if they break the law, put them in 13 jail and lock them up and get them out of -- get them out of 14 our hair. But, my problem with it is -- is a personal 15 problem. I have a son that's in high school. And, to give 16 you an example, about two weeks from now, he will be coming 17 in from a track -- a soccer game, soccer match, probably 18 at -- after hours, and then a couple hours later, he will be 19 leaving out of here with the track team during these hours 20 here. And -- you know, and I know -- I feel secure that 21 he's -- you know, I understand that he may be stopped and 22 asked some questions and detained for a few moments, and I 23 understand that and I don't have any problem with them doing 24 their job. But, if he's harassed in any way, you're going 25 to have an angry Commissioner on your hands that does have 116 1 some -- 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me finish, Rusty; 4 quit interrupting people -- that is going to have some 5 diplomatic attitude about it, but you're going to have a 6 madder-than-hell daddy on your hands that doesn't have any 7 diplomacy. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If I may comment on 9 that, the thing about that, Commissioner, is it wouldn't 10 matter if he is harassed; it's not going to matter whether 11 it's a teen curfew law or whether it's any other law 12 violation. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly right. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It is an officer not 15 doing his duties the way he's supposed to do them. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So, that won't affect 18 the teen curfew, okay? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Another thing -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let him finish. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He interrupted me, Judge; 24 I can interrupt him if I want to. If he's going to be 25 courteous, I'll be courteous. If he's not, I won't. 117 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir. I apologize 2 for interrupting you. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On that same point, 4 though, you get some kid who's pulled over, only -- say, 5 Jesse or my nephew or something -- my nephew's over 17, but 6 say he was under 17. Say he smarts off to the officer, 7 which he shouldn't do. He's being pulled over for doing 8 nothing wrong. Maybe he has a little bit of an attitude, 9 which there's nothing criminal; he shouldn't be penalized 10 for that. The officer decides to harass him. Who's at 11 fault? You're -- to me, you're creating a situation which, 12 you know, is not ideal. And I just go back to basic -- I 13 mean, this is something that I would imagine is going to go 14 through one way or the other. I won't vote for it. 15 Hopefully we can modify a lot of the provisions that I think 16 are very inaccurate or wrong right now, one being that the 17 Comfort School District is totally left out of it, which 18 takes up a large portion of the -- of this county. Just a 19 minor problem. 20 But, anyway, I just think that this is an 21 invasion of parental responsibility, invasion of personal 22 rights, and I just don't like to see our society going down 23 that road. That's just a personal belief of mine. I think 24 every time we take more rights away from the public, we're 25 going to make it worse down the road, because it's more 118 1 irresponsibility in the future, and I just think that you 2 have to draw a line somewhere. Granted, there may be -- 3 and, first of all, I don't see that there's that much -- 4 I've never heard until now that there's that much of a 5 problem on this. I mean, the curfew issue. The kids that 6 are out at cemeteries or doing vandalism, there are already 7 criminal penalties for those actions, so what you're 8 stopping -- you know, you may be able to prevent a little 9 bit of that, but basically you're creating a situation where 10 kids that are doing nothing wrong are being pulled over by 11 the police, which I think is a bad precedent. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: You have to look at the 13 timeframe that we're talking about. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: We're not talking about 8 16 o'clock in the evening, not talking about 10 o'clock in the 17 morning on Saturday. We're talking between 11 o'clock at 18 night and 6 o'clock in the morning on a weekday, and 19 midnight and 6 o'clock in the morning on a weekend. And, 20 the problem this is really designed to address is the 13- or 21 14-year-olds who are walking the streets, either in Center 22 Point or in Kerrville or in Hunt -- not that many of them in 23 Hunt, but there may be a few of them -- 24 MR. ESTE: We don't have sidewalks. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- at 2 o'clock in the 119 1 morning, looking for something to do. And, at 2 o'clock in 2 the morning, when you're walking by the flea market on 3 Schreiner Street or the Beer Barn or something like that, 4 there is really nothing you can find to do at 2 o'clock in 5 the morning when you're on foot that's constructive. And, 6 those parents, by the fact that the kids are out there at 7 that time of night, have already demonstrated that they 8 either don't care, or they don't know how to effectively 9 supervise those kids. And, this is not a proactive measure. 10 It is a reactive measure. I -- I, myself, am -- am, quite 11 frankly, surprised by the statistics that the Juvenile 12 Probation Department has brought forth. I mean, 58 percent 13 of all referrals are during the hours of this curfew. That 14 is not an insignificant sum. I would have expected 15 somewhere around 35 percent. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would have thought it 17 would be higher, personally. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, this is -- this is not an 19 effort to infringe upon good kids. My son's going to be 20 affected too when he comes home at spring break, and he's 21 not going to like it, but I'm going to tell him that's the 22 law and you're going to go along with it. I have parents 23 who come to my court who say, "I don't know how to tell them 24 not to." Well, now they may have the ability to say, you 25 know, "You can't go out at 11 o'clock at night on Wednesday, 120 1 because it's against the law." Kevin? 2 MR. STANTON: We get phone calls every day in 3 our office from parents wanting to know how to get their 4 kids involved in our probation -- in our program that have 5 never committed a criminal offense, saying that they can't 6 control their kids, they don't know how to get them to go to 7 school, or how they can't do this or how they can't do that. 8 I think this is giving the parents another tool to either -- 9 when the kids are -- when they say, "No, you can't go," and 10 they go anyway and then they get pulled over or stopped for 11 curfew violation, this is going to give those parents the 12 opportunity to come in and express their concern, and be 13 able to -- for us to take an active role in trying to reduce 14 some of the crimes or some of the things that can happen 15 further down the road, you know. And, you would really be 16 surprised at the number of phone calls we get of just 17 parents wanting their kids to be put on probation when 18 they've never done anything wrong. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think we all recognize that 20 the most effective law enforcement is the earliest law 21 enforcement, particularly with juveniles. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The last comment I have, 23 and I'll sit down -- and I do apologize for interrupting 24 you, too, but I agree. That's why I'm saying, for law 25 enforcement purposes, this would be the best thing that 121 1 could happen because of the problems we're having. For a 2 parent or something, I think there are some questions about 3 it. Hopefully, responsible kids in that age group would not 4 be out at that time of night, as the Judge pointed out, but 5 it is a decision that's going to impact all of us. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Wayne, and then we'll 7 let you -- 8 MR. ESTE: Commissioner Letz and the Court, 9 we've wrestled with this for almost a year, with this 10 particular recommendation, and I could honestly say that all 11 nine members of the committee felt as you feel. I mean, you 12 know, we're in conservative Kerr County, and we don't want 13 another -- we don't want another law. Personally, I've 14 raised four sons, and if I said 11 o'clock, it didn't mean 15 11:01. And -- but that's not true of my next-door neighbor, 16 or the neighbors down the street. I shouldn't say my 17 next-door neighbor; I'm just using an example. Next door 18 neighbor's good -- pretty good people. Larry. So -- but 19 we -- we have wrestled with this, and I agree 100 percent 20 with you. I -- 100 percent, and I think all nine members of 21 the committee agree 100 percent, we don't really want 22 another law, because all of us on that committee were 23 fantastic parents, just as, you know, I'm sure every one of 24 you up here is. And I have a 16-year-old also, Buster. 25 And, you know, when they sit there and say, "Well, I guess I 122 1 have one year to worry about it," I said, "Yeah, you have 2 one year to worry about it, 'cause you're going to be 17." 3 I don't feel -- and I've talked with Rowan Zachry over at 4 Ingram for a number of -- a number of times. I don't feel 5 that this is an imposition on children, if they are stopped. 6 If they say, "We're going to a track meet," or "We're going 7 to a speech debate" or whatever it is, it's not an 8 imposition. The good kids are not going to get in trouble. 9 And, I agree, you know, I might have a 16-year-old that 10 might look at the officer and say, "I ain't doing anything, 11 man," you know, but I don't think that's going to 12 necessarily be a problem. I don't like it, but I think 13 we're living in the times where it's absolutely necessary. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Commissioner Williams? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My turn, Judge? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I come at this topic 18 from a little different point of view, although I appreciate 19 the comments of Commissioner Letz very much and Commissioner 20 Baldwin. And, if my son were 16 and -- or 15 or whatever, 21 and he had gotten himself out of control, I would be 22 concerned, and I would be concerned -- if he was a good kid, 23 which he is, I would be expressing the same concerns that 24 Commissioner Baldwin came out. I don't view it as -- as a 25 -- a regulation or a law that -- that deprives the rights. 123 1 I view it -- or imposes something on somebody unnecessarily. 2 I view it more as a law enforcement tool, and as a measure 3 or a means to cause parents to act more responsibly toward 4 their own children. The Sheriff came -- started at the 5 beginning of his comments by saying he was for it as a law 6 enforcement officer, but he had concerns about it as a 7 parent. I understand that. That puts him right in the 8 middle of the issue. But, he acts responsibly as a parent. 9 He makes certain that his children understand what 10 law-abiding citizenship means. So does my colleague to the 11 right here. And, so, I don't view it as a denial or 12 deprival of rights. I view it as an opportunity for the 13 Sheriff's Department to -- to set kids straight who have an 14 opportunity to go astray, and also send a message to a 15 parent who is not acting in the capacity that he should 16 by -- by suggesting what's good and what's bad. So, 17 essentially, I think we need to address some of the concerns 18 that the other Commissioners have put before us in terms of 19 -- of what we do when an individual is stopped, and all 20 those things are of concern. Conceptually, however, I 21 support it. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Letz, do you 23 have something else? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I pretty much 25 said -- I mean, I think I can -- my gut feeling, like I said 124 1 earlier, this is going to pass. I have a lot of problems 2 with the specific document, but I think that can be handled 3 out of the hearing or, you know, whenever. I mean -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I just wanted 5 to say that I'm -- I'm just like Commissioner Letz, and I 6 think that he and I deal with the other side -- the 7 different kid than you see on that in your afternoons, and 8 the County Attorney does, and all you folks, y'all deal 9 with. We never see that type of kid. We deal with kids 10 that work hard and have integrity. And, with that in mind, 11 see, I would -- actually, I don't like the thought of -- of 12 the police officer being in the schools. I don't like that 13 thought of my child walking down a hallway in his school 14 with a police officer there. I really detest that. 15 However, I think that it's just -- we've come to those times 16 in Kerr County. We have arrived there, and I -- we're a 17 little bit too redneck for this stuff, Jon, but -- we're a 18 little bit behind the times, and the times have come and 19 those problems have arrived in our community, and we have to 20 do something about it. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: I -- that's true. I mean, 22 your child is involved in athletics. Mine were involved in 23 athletics, debate and mock trial. I'm sure Larry's son was 24 and Bill's son was, and they didn't have time to get in 25 trouble. But, this law is aimed at the kid who is walking 125 1 down Junction Highway at 1 o'clock in the morning and walks 2 by a used car lot and, just for the fun of it, pulls out his 3 pocketknife or reaches down and picks up a nail and 4 scratches the sides of 14 cars. You know, if we'd have had 5 this law in place and had the police officer or deputy come 6 down before that child got to that parking lot -- that used 7 car lot, we might not have had that problem, and those -- 8 the people who -- and the man who owned those cars wouldn't 9 have been out -- I think it was $17,000, because the child 10 didn't have the wherewithal to pay it back. It's 11 unfortunate that we have to come to this. It's unfortunate 12 we have to have burn bans. It's unfortunate we have to 13 lecture people on firearm responsibility. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, don't bring that 15 up. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: These are the times we live 17 in. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Judge, if I may, I -- 19 I come at this from a slightly different perspective. I'll 20 admit to my biases, because my three kids were raised in a 21 military environment, mostly living on bases where there 22 were always curfews. There were always curfews. But, of 23 course, that was much more of a nuclear family environment, 24 because everybody looked out for everybody else's kids, and 25 so -- but curfews do work. And I think that -- that while 126 1 it takes another one of those little chips at -- at 2 so-called freedom, that it's really looking out for the kid. 3 It's not trying to punish the kid or to harass him or 4 anything else. It is meant to give that kid an opportunity 5 to understand what authority is about. And, when parents 6 fail, it gives them an opportunity to see what authority is 7 about, and so I -- I'll vote in favor of it. And we can 8 tweak the document, certainly, if it needs it; however, when 9 I look at the defenses that are listed in Paragraph C, I 10 think that's -- they look very good to me. I think the 11 document is very well crafted, but we can certainly improve 12 on it if we can. But it's not a bad -- it's not a bad 13 thing, and curfews are not something that just spring up in 14 2001. Curfews have gone back to the early days of our 15 civilization and our society, and I don't think it's an 16 onerous deal at all. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Motley, do you have 18 something you want to -- 19 MR. MOTLEY: I think the Sheriff had 20 something else. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm not trying to walk 22 out on this; I think it's very important, but I also have a 23 911 board meeting starting in seven minutes, so before I go, 24 thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Enjoy your lunch. 127 1 MR. MOTLEY: I'd like to make a couple of 2 comments about the proposed curfew order, and I think also 3 there's some questions that certain Commissioners have -- 4 that certain Commissioners have asked that I might be able 5 to provide answers to. First of all, this order did start 6 out modeled after the Court case of QUTB, Q-U-T-B, versus 7 City of Dallas. And, we initially had put -- pardon me -- 8 the same hours of restriction in ours as they had in theirs, 9 which was 11:00 to 6:00 on a night before a school night, 10 and, 12:00 to 6:00 on nights preceding weekend nights or 11 holidays in the Dallas School District. 12 I talked with the Sheriff about it, and he 13 said it would really make an enforcement nightmare for ours 14 to be different from Ingram's, so we have now changed those 15 specific hour definitions to match what is in Ingram, which, 16 in effect, gives them an hour longer. It gives them from 17 midnight to 6:00 on school nights, and 1:00 to 6:00 on 18 Saturday and Sundays. Also, I see that it did leave out the 19 Comfort Independent School District. I tried to get 20 everybody in there. Really, the -- the defenses provided -- 21 I think Commissioner Griffin mentioned them. The defenses 22 are very broad, and that's what makes the whole thing pass 23 constitutional muster, according to the Fifth Circuit Court. 24 Any child involved in employment activity, any child on an 25 errand from their parents, any child with a parent, any 128 1 school, religious, or recreational activity, any event 2 sponsored by a civic organization in Kerr County, those are 3 all defenses. 4 And, in Provision D under Section 2, it does 5 encourage the officer to -- before taking any enforcement 6 action, the Kerr County Sheriff's deputies should ask the 7 offender's age and the reason for being in the public place. 8 He shouldn't issue a citation or make an arrest unless he 9 reasonably believes that an offense has occurred and that, 10 based on any response, no defense in Subsection C is 11 present. One of the big arguments made in the QUTB case was 12 that the plaintiffs were saying that they, as parents, were 13 being deprived of their constitutional right to parent their 14 children. And the Court said, in fact, the only aspect of 15 parenting that the ordinance bears upon is the parents' 16 right to allow the minor to remain in public places 17 unaccompanied by a parent or guardian or other authorized 18 person during the restricted hours. 19 Because of the broad exemptions included in 20 the curfew ordinance, the parent retains the right to make 21 decisions regarding his or her child in all other areas. 22 Parents may allow the minor to remain in public so long as 23 he's accompanied by a parent or a guardian, or a person 24 who's at least 18 years of age who is authorized by the 25 parent to have the child, and allow the minor to attend 129 1 activities organized by a group, such as church groups, 2 civic organizations, et cetera. The parents may still allow 3 the child to hold a job, perform an errand for the parent, 4 seek help in emergency situations. These are all normal, 5 you know, things that a parent might want to do. 6 Somebody earlier had said that it would 7 involve the parent. It will involve the parent, because 8 under Section B(2), the parent is chargeable under this 9 offense if the parent knowingly allows the child to remain 10 out after those hours in a public place and none of the 11 defenses apply. So, the parent may be ticketed under this 12 same provision, as well as the minor, or the owner of an 13 establishment, if you allow a minor to remain upon the 14 premises during curfew hours. So, it tries to attack the 15 problem in all the most likely areas. The -- the Attorney 16 General has considered this -- this provision and said that 17 while essentially constitutional, it may in certain 18 circumstances be unconstitutionally applied. For example, 19 if such an ordinance were enforced in a manner that -- that 20 had an invidious impact on members of a suspect class, the 21 case might well be altered. Care must therefore be taken 22 that the ordinance, like all others, be even-handedly 23 applied. And, I think we would be relying on our Sheriff's 24 Department to do that, to use good judgment. They have to 25 ask them why they are there and if they have a defense. 130 1 They have to apply it in an even-handed manner. 2 It is very unlikely, in my opinion, that a 3 school bus would be stopped, although I -- I hear 4 Commissioner Baldwin saying, well, you might have one on the 5 way to the school function get stopped, and that is -- that 6 is an infringement on -- on the rights of the children. 7 And, the Court -- and the Fifth Circuit looked at the 8 infringement of the rights of the child and the parents and 9 such, and then weighed on the other hand the rights of the 10 community, and also the rights of the child to be protected 11 from bad activities, to be -- you know, from being led down 12 the -- the path of crime. And -- and, you know, I know Ann 13 Richards -- I don't know who she was paraphrasing, but she 14 said, "Nothing much good happens after 10 o'clock at night." 15 Fifty-eight percent of the crimes -- or the referrals to 16 Juvenile Probation occurred in 29 percent of the hours. I 17 also want to emphasize that those numbers now are a little 18 bit different from 11:00 to 6:00, because that's the way 19 ours was originally crafted, was 11:00 to 6:00, but I had to 20 change it to 12:00 to 6:00. 21 One question I might have for the Court -- 22 and we have a difficult situation. We have a situation in 23 the City of Kerrville and City of Ingram that the City of 24 Dallas never had, because in unincorporated areas, we are 25 affected by school holidays that would be called by any of 131 1 six school districts. Comfort, Divide, Hunt, Center Point, 2 Ingram, and Kerrville Independent School District all have 3 kids who -- in the district that live outside the city 4 limits, so I didn't really know how to do this. I think 5 most of them have the same holidays; like, last Friday I 6 think most of the kids had that day off for, like, stock 7 show. And -- but, by the way this is written now, if one 8 school district called a -- a holiday just for their school 9 district, you would have that extra hour of time for all 10 kids under there. And, I don't know any other way to write 11 it, because if you wrote it and said that, you know, only -- 12 a holiday for the Ingram Independent School District applied 13 for kids, you know, who were a resident -- who were 14 participating in that school, that would be another 15 nightmare for the officer to try to enforce. 16 But, I guess all I wanted to say to you is 17 that I think that some of the concerns that were expressed 18 about infringement on parents' rights, if you really look at 19 it, all we're really trying to do by the order is we're 20 talking about kids that are out very late at night, no 21 parental supervision, no adult supervision, who ought to be 22 home in bed. That's all there is to it. If they're going 23 to worry about their schoolwork or become some kind of a 24 student, they're not going to do very well if they're out 25 running around at 3:00 in the morning or whatever without 132 1 any supervision. 2 It does assist the police. I've talked to 3 police officers before where they had a series of -- in the 4 city, a series of dumpster fires, and they knew very well 5 this group of boys walking around were doing it. They knew 6 absolutely that they were doing it. There was one dumpster 7 fire; the boys were somewhere in the vicinity, and there was 8 another dumpster fire and they were somewhere in the 9 vicinity. But they have no authority to approach those boys 10 or do anything, so -- and say, "What are y'all doing out?" 11 They couldn't do it. And, so, this will be a tool that can 12 be used for that. But the whole idea, I think, is to keep 13 these kids home where they ought to be, and maybe their 14 schoolwork will improve if they get a little bit more sleep. 15 If y'all have any questions of me on that, I'd -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have some 17 questions, David, if you have a moment. 18 MR. MOTLEY: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've forgotten what 20 the Federal Labor Standards Act says with respect to 21 children in school working. There are conditions that 22 affect that, but has that been taken into consideration 23 under defenses, Section 3? 24 MR. MOTLEY: Well -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With regard to kids 133 1 working at -- at restaurants or whatever, and restaurants 2 remain open beyond curfew hours. 3 MR. MOTLEY: Any child who is engaged in 4 employment activity -- under Section C(1)(d), any child 5 engaged in employment activity, or going to or returning 6 home from an employment activity without any detour or stop. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 8 MR. MOTLEY: That's a defense. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's good. How 10 about just the one above it, (c), in a motor vehicle 11 involved in interstate travel? How about inter-county 12 travel as well? Or do you think the broader definition 13 covers it? 14 MR. MOTLEY: Well, you know, I -- I'm sure 15 there's a reason that they originally used that term in 16 Dallas. Now, of course if we just were talking about kids 17 who were not in cars, just kids on foot, you know, an 18 argument might well be made that we're making some sort of a 19 discrimination against children who have available to them, 20 you know, automobile transportation. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But a rural area's a 22 little bit different than a big metroplex. 23 MR. MOTLEY: Yeah, sure is. And I really 24 don't -- I tell you what, I can't really see the -- the 25 rationale for that defense, to be honest with you, because 134 1 where's a kid who is unaccompanied by a parent going to be 2 going on -- you know, on interstate travel at 2:00 in the 3 morning or whatever? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Inter-city or 5 inter-county makes more sense than interstate, to me. My 6 next question has to do with (h), exercising First Amendment 7 rights protected by United States Constitution, freedom of 8 exercise of religion, freedom of speech, et cetera. You 9 mean I can avoid the conflict -- the curfew if I'm in the 10 middle of a parking lot scraping cars by saying I'm out here 11 praying? 12 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I think you can. And I 13 think if you don't have a provision in there to allow the 14 exercise of these rights, as protected by the Constitution, 15 then you're going to run into some trouble overall with the 16 constitutionality of what they're doing, because they are 17 restricting a fairly substantial right. But, in order to do 18 so, you have to make sure that there's a need for it, and 19 the greater the need, you know, the more necessary the thing 20 is. Then you would have to craft some relief that is as 21 narrow as possible to address what it is you're doing. And, 22 one of the ways that is done is to -- one of the crafting, I 23 guess you'd say, or ways to narrow this is by adding 24 defenses. The affirmative provisions in here are not -- not 25 overbearing, but -- but you do try to protect and make it 135 1 narrow by allowing kids to go to school functions and come 2 home. And, I know very well the debate team -- I can tell 3 you the number of nights that I was up at the school at 3:00 4 in the morning waiting for the debate team to get home, so 5 it certainly happens, but that does provide a defense. 6 And I think the officers will get to know 7 this about kids, and -- and, lord, I hope -- I hope that the 8 kids will be aware of this and don't feel that it's a real 9 good idea to smart off to an officer who is a -- you know, 10 stopping them and asking them what the deal is, and just 11 tell them, "Look, I was at the debate tournament; I'm going 12 home." And I envision that those kids would go right, 13 straight home. Normally, in any event, I don't think -- 14 this is a -- this is a Class C-type misdemeanor, and 15 normally you're going to be talking about getting a 16 citation, going on your way, and then if you have a 17 legitimate defense and such, go to court and explain it if 18 need be. Nobody is looking at trying to get after kids who 19 are going to legitimate functions. That's not the goal. 20 The goal is these kids that are just running around with no 21 supervision. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have one other 23 question, one final question. 24 MR. MOTLEY: Sure. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Under A on Page 2, 136 1 A(2)(c), dealing with the timeframe preceding a school 2 holiday, is "holiday" intended also to mean days off from 3 school which may be caused by undue weather or other acts of 4 nature? 5 MR. MOTLEY: Well, you know, I think it would 6 certainly be defined that way. Of course, a child who fits 7 the definition in here may not know until the next morning 8 that school has been canceled, so I wouldn't think that that 9 would be an event that would allow them to stay out, 10 because, I mean, it's really kind of needles and pins. You 11 don't know whether you're going to school or you're going to 12 go late until usually early the next morning. At least 13 that's been -- 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's only an hour's 15 difference, anyway. That's all we're talking about, the 16 difference between 11 o'clock and 12 o'clock. 17 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I'll just tell you right 18 now, I mean, maybe I'm a little bit overbearing as a parent, 19 but I -- I have a son that's soon to be 17, so he'll be out 20 of the coverage. I'm not going to let him be hanging out 21 till 1:00 in the morning anywhere. I'm not going to do it; 22 I don't care how old he is. And if he wants to do it, he 23 can set up house somewhere else. I'm not -- you know, I 24 don't -- you know, I think it's a pretty liberal timeframe. 25 The reason, again, we pushed it the other hour was to match 137 1 what was in Ingram, to make -- to make a more enforceable 2 plan for the County, for the Sheriff. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couple comments. One, I 4 mean, when you said that, but you're imposing your values as 5 a parent on other parents. I'm just making that point. You 6 said you don't have any problem with it because you think 7 it's okay personally. Well, you're imposing those values on 8 other people, and that's what I object to in this whole 9 concept. The other thing -- I mean, I don't really want to 10 go through the document right now, but just -- in Paragraph 11 (g), the way I read that, it's only activities that are 12 sponsored by Kerr County, and I think that's a real problem. 13 Twice it says "supervised by adults and sponsored by Kerr 14 County." There are numerous activities that are not 15 sponsored by Kerr County. 16 MR. MOTLEY: Well, it says a civic 17 organization or other similar entity that has the 18 responsibility for the minor, going to and from school 19 events, religious events -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not concerned about 21 the school; I'm concerned about youth soccer leagues, all 22 kinds of youth sports leagues that are very loose, 23 unofficial. They're not, you know, necessarily a sanctioned 24 group. That takes place primarily during the summer when 25 schools aren't -- 138 1 MR. MOTLEY: I think that could certainly be 2 added. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think that needs to 4 be really looked at, because, you know, we talk more about 5 during the year with the schools and such. Well, the 6 summer's probably the biggest, you know, benefit that may 7 come from this, if there is any, and I think it really -- we 8 really need to work on that, because there are so many 9 activities, anything from team roping to -- 10 MR. MOTLEY: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- everything that I 12 don't see covered right now. 13 MR. MOTLEY: That may be a misdraft. I 14 really didn't intend for any of those groups of activities 15 to also have to be sponsored by Kerr County, 'cause y'all 16 will go nuts in here sponsoring different events. And, what 17 I was probably trying to reflect is that school, religious, 18 other recreational activities supervised by adults, 19 activities sponsored by Kerr County. It should be along 20 with those, but not a -- not an overall sponsorship for 21 those groups, and I didn't intend that. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, the other thing 23 is, you know, you're talking about public school districts. 24 There are also private schools in this county. 25 MR. MOTLEY: Right. 139 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you're going to do it, 2 they ought to be addressed equally, I would think. 3 MR. MOTLEY: Right. And, of course, the -- 4 there's one on the way, and then -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, there already is 6 one. I guess it could have some -- 7 MR. MOTLEY: Notre Dame, I had thought about 8 putting that in there. My only question is about that -- 9 and, to me, again, this is the most difficult part of the 10 whole deal, for enforcement reasons. If you have -- say, 11 for example, Notre Dame School might have a holiday that is 12 -- that is not generally celebrated by the other schools. 13 You're going to end up with that extra time. And, I thought 14 the way to err on that would be on the side of caution and 15 say, if any school district calls a holiday, then all the 16 kids, you know, would have that extra hour. I don't have 17 any problem adding those other -- certainly, the private 18 schools in there. 19 Again, my original thought was to say, well, 20 if K.I.S.D. calls a holiday, then the K.I.S.D. students 21 would be able to have the extra hour that night. Of course, 22 this also covers -- a lot of kids this is going to cover are 23 certainly not students at K.I.S.D. They're not in that 24 school. It's just that if the school calls a holiday, that 25 the kid who lives in that school district would receive the 140 1 benefit, but I cannot find any rational way to write that to 2 where the officer could say, well, you know, where do you go 3 to school? And the kid may go to Hunt, but may say he's 4 going to Divide because he knows Divide has some holiday 5 there or something from -- for one-room schools or 6 something. So, the way I figured it is, if any of these 7 schools call a holiday, it -- and there's been a move before 8 for us to -- to standardize the school holidays and the 9 county holidays. I know there's been talk about that 10 before. Some people have come to me from the school and 11 talked about that, to try to have anything kind of at the 12 same time, because parents who have a -- a federal holiday 13 and their children don't have a holiday and such, it helps 14 the family to have more time together. But -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is just an idea. It 16 seems to me to be easier if it was the same. If you push it 17 to 1 o'clock every day of the week, you'd probably solve a 18 lot of the travel problems of athletic teams and everything 19 else that I -- issues that I really have about kids being 20 stopped that shouldn't be stopped. I think most of that -- 21 very few get home after 1 o'clock. A great number are on 22 the road between 11:00 and 12 o'clock. 23 MR. MOTLEY: I know what you're saying. And 24 I'm -- and I, as a parent -- again, I hope I'm not forcing 25 my views on somebody, but as a parent, I don't have much 141 1 concern about my son if he's off on a K.I.S.D.-sponsored 2 event, a football or a debate thing. I think he's being 3 well taken care of. I don't worry about him at that point. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think we have to remember 5 the purpose of this, though, and it's not for the kids that 6 are on athletic teams. They're -- they have a defense. 7 And, the Sheriff's Department and the Police Department will 8 quickly recognize that -- that there are times when they can 9 be late. If we push the times back, then I think we're 10 doing damage to the kids we're trying to help, which are not 11 those good kids who are participating in school activities. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the other side of 13 that is, you're -- I'm trying to make it easier to live with 14 something I don't want in the first place -- is at least 15 we're keeping kids that shouldn't be stopped in the first 16 place from being stopped, 'cause they are going to be on the 17 road during that period. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Some are and some aren't. My 19 kids played sports, and most of the time, you know, if there 20 are sports activities, they were home by 12:00 or they were 21 in a situation where they could be home by 12:00 on the 22 weekdays, and by 1 o'clock on the weekends. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're saying if you're 24 playing a game in Austin, which -- or San Antonio, which our 25 baseball team has probably six scheduled this year -- I 142 1 don't think you're going to be back. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I had two kids that 3 played basketball, I had two kids that played soccer, and 4 there weren't that many times, even when we lived in Hunt, 5 that they weren't back in Kerrville at a time when they 6 could have been home by midnight on Tuesday night, or by 7 12 o'clock on Friday night. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just trying to 9 avoid -- 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Most of the teams -- 11 the folks that you're talking about -- both of you are 12 talking about now are going to be traveling in an automobile 13 or going to be probably traveling with an adult anyway, but 14 maybe not. But, the fact is, they're probably going to 15 drive right home. We're not going to stop every car. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, but I just -- 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And, the fact is, the 18 ones you're getting at is the ones -- the kid you're trying 19 to address with this is the one that's walking past the used 20 car lot at 2 o'clock in the morning, not the kid driving 21 back from an athletic event. 22 MR. MOTLEY: The total referrals in this 23 three-month period were 178, and 58 percent or 103 of those 24 kids were referred to Juvenile Probation between the hours 25 of -- I believe it was midnight -- no, excuse me, it was 143 1 between 11:00 and 6:00, 58 percent of the kids referred in a 2 span of time which equaled 29 percent of the time. You can 3 see right there that the propensity to commit a criminal -- 4 or an act which will get you referred to Juvenile Probation 5 is four times as high during those hours, and so that's -- 6 that's a consideration, as far as protecting citizens' 7 property and rights and such as that. And, I just -- I -- 8 again, I wonder, you know, what in the world little kids, 9 some of them very young, are doing out that late. And 10 oftentimes, you know, in juvenile court -- and I think the 11 Judge will back me up on this -- we find out that the 12 parents are out somewhere else. They're out roaming around, 13 doing what they want to do, and their kids just go on out 14 unsupervised. And, so -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, if y'all would 16 take a deep breath, I'll make a motion. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, me too. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If there's just a 19 slight change in this thing, I'm going to make a motion. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. I'm -- I 22 move that we establish -- Kerr County establish a teen 23 curfew in Kerr County and set a public hearing -- 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: A week from -- month from 25 today at 7 o'clock? 144 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- a month from today 2 at 7 o'clock, but it can't be during the curfew hours. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, it can't. I 4 second the motion. 5 MR. MOTLEY: You're over 18, Buster. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Do we want to set two 7 meetings or one? 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thirty days. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, okay. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion's been made -- 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Not exactly a month. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion's made that we approve 13 the order establishing a teen curfew and set a public 14 hearing on same for February 22nd at 7 o'clock p.m. 15 MS. ALFORD: 26th. 16 MR. MOTLEY: With the changes that Jonathan 17 recommended? 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 MR. MOTLEY: Right, I'll get the document 20 today. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we have to have 22 the document available before we can -- 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think what we can do -- 24 let's approve this one so we can have it on file. The 25 changes suggested are not terribly substantive. We can 145 1 discuss them at the public hearing and then make those 2 changes, if we so desire, to the one that we adopt. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we should have 4 the document very close to what we adopt before we do a 5 public hearing. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I kind of agree, 7 because we've had -- there were some suggestions that need 8 to be looked at right now. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Well, we can do 10 that, too. We can approve it as amended, and the public 11 hearing would be the 26th at 7 o'clock in the evening. 12 MR. MOTLEY: The changes I would propose to 13 change are the -- to make, the amendments, would be to make 14 it clear that all those events don't have to be sponsored by 15 Kerr County; that an event sponsored by Kerr County would 16 fall within that group. Also, add the Comfort Independent 17 School District, try to get a list of schools -- of private 18 schools that may be engaging in these activities and add 19 that in there, as well. And, I didn't hear anything else 20 that -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't you take a 22 look at interstate versus county and inter-city -- 23 MR. MOTLEY: Sure, I'll look at that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, can I second my 25 own motion? 146 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I did. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: We -- 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'll second that 4 motion. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 6 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Williams. Any further 7 discussion? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One more, under 9 Penalties. David, you mentioned this is a Class C 10 misdemeanor. I don't see that listed anywhere. 11 MR. MOTLEY: Well, it's a fine of $500, and 12 so any -- anything higher -- anything finable -- any offense 13 finable by a fine only is deemed to be a Class C misdemeanor 14 under the Penal Code. Anything B or above would provide for 15 jail. So, it could be added in there. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it should be, 17 because I think it does something else. If someone gets 18 stopped who shouldn't be and is -- for whatever reason, gets 19 arrested, all of a sudden just gets arrested, a good kid has 20 a record for no reason. And, as we know, while it may be 21 proven, you know, not guilty, there's paper that will never 22 be destroyed about this kid being arrested for a 23 misdemeanor, and I think that's an issue. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions? If 147 1 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 2 (Commissioners Baldwin, Williams, and Griffin voted in favor of the motion.) 3 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Aye. 6 (Commissioner Letz voted against the motion.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries, 3 to 1. 8 David, we'll need to have the order revised and to the 9 County Clerk by Wednesday. 10 MR. MOTLEY: I think I can do it over the 11 lunch hour and get it out today. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: It needs to be published. 13 Okay. At this time, let's recess and return at 1:30. 14 MR. MOTLEY: Judge, I have some hearings at 15 1:30 at the State Hospital. Could I come in here after that 16 to do that 2.18? 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: If we're still here. I don't 18 think you're going to have any problems, David. 19 MR. MOTLEY: Yeah. I just -- the only thing 20 I want to mention about that, that if the Court approves 21 that additional -- those additional funds, I need to ask 22 authorization for a hand check so we can mail them. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Tommy told us that this 24 morning. 25 MR. MOTLEY: Okay. 148 1 (Recess taken from 12:18 p.m. to 1:30 p.m.) 2 - - - - - - - - - - 3 (Commissioner Letz was not present for afternoon session.) 4 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll reconvene this special 6 session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. At this 7 time, let's take up Item Number 2.15, consider and discuss 8 proposed revisions to the scope of work and contract amount, 9 as reflected in the Change Order Number 7 relating to the 10 renovation of the Annex. Keith? 11 MR. LONGNECKER: This Change Order Number 7, 12 as it is written, reflects a credit of $3,764. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Excuse me, did you 14 say credit? 15 MR. LONGNECKER: Yes, sir. The reason for 16 that credit is a 700 -- $7,150 credit for not doing anything 17 to the historic windows in this building. This is what the 18 contractor sees from his contractor as a credit that he can 19 give back. The reason for that is we'd kind of like to 20 explore and do a survey of the other windows, which we have 21 done that. The survey is included in the back of your 22 Change Order 7. There's also a new specification that 23 covers everything that needs to be done to these old 24 windows. Now, the reason I asked Mike Walker to include the 25 credit, rather than going back to Stoddard to see how much 149 1 more this new survey and specification would cost, was to 2 take advantage, perhaps, of an opportunity here to see what 3 it would cost to completely retrofit the building with all 4 new windows. 5 As you all know, the cost of energy is going 6 up at a fantastic rate right now. I know that my electric 7 bill has gone up at least 20 percent, and it seems to me 8 like that by investigating and getting the windows 9 completely retrofit, replaced with all new permanent windows 10 that would no longer be a maintenance headache or no longer 11 have the problems of heat loss, heat gain, like the old ones 12 do, you could -- you could see a tremendous savings in 13 energy costs over a period of five or six years. So, before 14 we spend a lot more money on restoring these old windows -- 15 which, in my estimation, Stoddard would increase his cost by 16 about $38,000 he would want to add to the contract as an 17 additional change order, and I think that's a little bit 18 more than you should spend on old windows. 19 Even after the windows are refurbished, they 20 still are not going to be energy efficient, as if they had 21 insulating glass or low-heat glass, as it's called, energy 22 efficient glass. They're still going to be just like they 23 are, with plain old double-strength glass in them, which is 24 where you have an energy loss. The number of windows per 25 square foot in this building is quite a bit more than it is 150 1 in the Annex building. We do have E-glass in that, which is 2 energy efficient, and there are quite a bit fewer windows. 3 So, we did make that building more energy efficient from a 4 window standpoint than this one is, or will be if we restore 5 these windows. 6 So, I'm recommending that we take Change 7 Order 7, as it is written, and -- which includes a $71 cost 8 for changing a couple of interior windows in the microfilm 9 room for Linda Uecker's District Clerk operations. That's 10 to take out glass and put in blinds so that she can make 11 that a darkroom up there, which was not considered in the 12 original contract. The $3,315 is for a discovered 13 condition, to add a fire wall as required by code in the 14 corridor and lobby area immediately at the top of the stairs 15 here, going up. And, the -- that is probably high, which is 16 what we have Stoddard doing, but it's less than his 17 original. We did, during our last construction meeting, get 18 that price down to this $3,315. Those are the three items 19 of the change order. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Does anyone have any 21 questions regarding the specifics of the change order? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Keith, I apologize. 23 I -- I was in a coma there for a moment when you were 24 talking about the windows. And, I guess maybe this is a 25 question to Mike. These changes that he's talking about, do 151 1 they affect the historical aspect of the building at all? 2 MR. WALKER: Well, certainly, they do. 3 Please keep in mind that the plans we submitted to the Texas 4 Historical Commission included the renovation of these 5 windows. So, yes. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And renovating them in 7 a way that -- that -- 8 MR. WALKER: Consistent with the -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Consistent -- 10 MR. WALKER: -- the state guidelines. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you finished? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, to that effect, 15 there's a credit, but Stoddard will be doing no window work, 16 and the window work will remain for us to determine and the 17 cost to do it at a later date; is that correct? 18 MR. LONGNECKER: At present, there's a few 19 windows upstairs that do need attention, that have holes and 20 cracks that need to be immediately repaired. But, it's -- 21 to me, we've lived with these old windows to this date, and 22 to me, I would suggest that, as soon as possible, there be a 23 workshop and that there be a selection of how to go about 24 doing a complete retrofit of the building. I mean, I'm 25 talking about deleting painting and everything so that we 152 1 can have this building as energy efficient as possible. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'll make a motion 4 that we approve the proposed revisions to the scope of work 5 and the change in contract amount as reflected in Change 6 Order 7. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 9 Griffin, seconded by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 10 approve the proposed revisions to the scope of work and 11 change in contract amount as reflected in Change Order 7 12 relating to the courthouse Phase III renovations. Any 13 further questions or comments? 14 MR. LONGNECKER: Like to say anything, Mike? 15 MR. WALKER: I just wanted to point out, as I 16 have pointed out in the letter to you, that I don't 17 necessarily think you're getting your full credit back on 18 those windows, but I -- it's a goodly amount for the amount 19 of work that -- that is to be done. Next, I'd like to point 20 out to you that the -- to clarify the inside of the windows 21 will be finished off, with the exception of the places like 22 the sashes that are going to be replaced. We will actually 23 point those out to them, and there's really not much sense 24 in them doing anything more than just cleaning them up, 25 because they're -- some of them, you can stick your fingers 153 1 through. So, there's not much point in doing anything other 2 than filling those holes. But, the -- all the work -- I 3 won't say all. The vast majority of the work that will be 4 done in the future to those windows, most of it can be done 5 from the outside. Now, that doesn't mean that -- you know, 6 for a period of time there will be a piece of plywood over 7 that window while it's being taken care of, so that it is 8 not without some discomfort for the folks inside there. 9 Also, all the weather stripping has been removed from those 10 windows, so it's going to be pretty uncomfortable in there 11 to a degree, because they need to go ahead and finish all 12 the way out to those windows and pull that stuff off and -- 13 and fill the holes and so forth. So, that will be taken 14 care of in -- in this go-round so that as little 15 interference with the inside operation can be done in the 16 subsequent phase. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question, 18 Judge. If you don't think we got the right amount of 19 credit, what do you think the right amount of credit should 20 be? 21 MR. WALKER: Well, I think it -- it should be 22 somewhat more than that. But, frankly, I don't know how you 23 -- you're not going extract it from this contractor. 24 Believe me, we worked hard to get it to that point. 25 MR. LONGNECKER: It started out at $5,500. 154 1 We had an awful time getting it up to $7,100. 2 MR. WALKER: So -- and, for example, they 3 left things off like the front entry door. That's a pretty 4 major thing. They just ignored it. At the last minute, 5 they put back in $200 to finish that. I think anyone who 6 would walk out there and look at that would know that it's 7 going to cost a whole lot more than $200 or $250 to strip 8 and revarnish that door. 9 MR. LONGNECKER: Much of what we're doing is 10 to try to expedite the project and get it completed so that 11 we can occupy and so that we can find some termination point 12 for Stoddard's contract. And, actually, I don't feel that 13 he has anyone qualified to even restore the windows, let 14 alone do a retrofit job on -- on the project. So, this 15 is -- this is a measure, I think, in doing this to simply 16 bring the contract to completion so that we can get on with 17 those other things that are going to be needed that are 18 above and beyond what his contract calls for. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hear, hear. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 21 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hands. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. We've 155 1 already discussed Item 16, which is discuss rehabilitating 2 historical windows. At this point, I don't believe we're 3 prepared to take any action on that, other than to accept 4 the survey that's been done. At some future point in time, 5 we'll have to get some numbers together and compare those 6 numbers with the available resources to see what we can do 7 on what kind of a schedule, but I don't see any -- any 8 driving force to go ahead with that at this time. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, what -- 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Unless the Commissioners 11 disagree. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. The way I 13 understood it was that we wanted to get the contractor out 14 of the building before we even -- 15 MR. LONGNECKER: Mike Walker has, I 16 believe -- you have at least one contractor in mind? To 17 give us a separate price on his survey specification here; 18 is that correct? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Why? Because that's 20 not -- 21 MR. LONGNECKER: To do a restoration of the 22 windows. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We want to get 24 Stoddard finished and out of here, right? 25 MR. LONGNECKER: Mm-hmm. 156 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And I think Buster 2 says it just right. That's a separate issue. We make it a 3 separate issue that would not involve Stoddard in any way, 4 shape, or form. So, there's some things we have to do to 5 get that contract -- the Stoddard contract finished, and -- 6 MR. LONGNECKER: I think what Mike Walker and 7 I would like to see is go ahead and get some bid prices on 8 what we have here at this point. 9 MR. WALKER: With the limited survey that we 10 have and the other sections that we have to go with it, it's 11 virtually ready to go out to bid to get the prices, if you 12 want to. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Have you identified the 14 source of funds for the work? 15 MR. WALKER: Sir, I'm just telling you where 16 the status will be. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: By virtue of which I'm 18 identifying the issue there are no funds budgeted for any 19 work outside the scope of contract, other than to finish out 20 the basement, and so we need to make the decision whether 21 we're prepared to go ahead and get prices and then try to 22 identify funds out of what is becoming an increasingly tight 23 budget for this year, or whether this is something that we 24 take up in a subsequent budget year. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: May I -- I think the 157 1 sense of the Court is, as I got it before, and -- and 2 correct me if I'm wrong, is that we want to get Stoddard's 3 contract work finished. We want the building weather-tight 4 so that we don't have water coming through the windows or 5 whatever. That we would address the window issue as a 6 totally separate thing and totally separate budget issue, 7 and not to deal with that at this point. But, we need to 8 get the building weather-tight, and I think the approach 9 you're taking where -- you know, try to do everything you 10 can on the inside so that most of the additional work, 11 whenever it is done, is done from the outside, and with some 12 obvious impact on the inside as well, but I think that's 13 where we're headed. We're not looking to commit to the 14 window project at this point, if I read this all right. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Except to ask, if we 16 delete this, as we're proposing to do, are we going to have 17 a weather-tight building? 18 MR. WALKER: No, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tell us about that. 20 MR. WALKER: Okay. If you will -- you can 21 walk around up there, and I'll be glad to show you the 22 instances, but there's places where plaster is falling off 23 because those existing windows are seeping and being 24 infiltrated by moisture. So, no, it is not weather-tight, 25 and I would make that very clear. Until those cracks and 158 1 crevices and caulking and so forth are put back together, it 2 is not weather-tight. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does that fall under 4 some scope of Mr. Stoddard's contract to do that? 5 MR. WALKER: Yes. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: It did. 7 MR. LONGNECKER: It did. You just took it 8 out. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: We don't even have a 10 weather-tight building down here. In Jonathan's office, 11 when the wind's blowing, we don't have a weather-tight -- 12 you know, I think that one -- a way we might approach 13 weather is to ask the -- once we're done, is to ask the 14 Maintenance Department to look at what has to be done in 15 order to improve the -- the weather conditions, the climate 16 control on -- on a short-term, but permanent -- 17 semi-permanent basis, so that it doesn't get caught up in 18 this overall issue of -- of the windows. I mean, we -- 19 weatherstripping is not necessarily tied, hip and thigh, to 20 the issue of renovating the windows. At least I don't think 21 so. 22 MR. LONGNECKER: No, you're right. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, weatherstripping we can 24 address -- 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: In maintenance. 159 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- as a maintenance issue 2 when we get to that point, when we get control of the 3 building. And then, as we develop the budget, both on the 4 -- how much it would cost and how much we're going to spend 5 at any one time, we can and will address the windows. We're 6 not going to leave the windows unaddressed; that would be 7 foolish, 'cause we spent all this money on this building and 8 then to leave that very visible part of the building -- 9 important part of the building unaddressed -- 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What you outlined, 11 Judge, is exactly what I was getting at; is that we get 12 Stoddard out of the building, get that contract finished, we 13 make the building as weather-tight as we can make it within 14 our resources, and that's probably through the Maintenance 15 Department, and then we'll address the overall issue of -- 16 of window renovation, probably in the next budget cycle. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Exactly. 18 MR. LONGNECKER: Okay. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: The survey is something that, 20 obviously, we will base our discussions of the window 21 problem off of the survey, which is excellent. That's what 22 we have to have, so it's a starting point. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else? Tell us 25 briefly, Keith, how we're coming. 160 1 MR. LONGNECKER: Well, at this point, we are 2 preparing to move the District Clerk from her present 3 offices over into this -- her new facilities. That's 4 scheduled for the 29th, which is next Monday, and it looks 5 like the contractor's going to make it. He's going to have 6 it ready. He has -- he's prepared to put flooring down. I 7 believe he started the vinyl flooring today and will do 8 carpet tomorrow. He has a little bit of varnish, painting 9 work to do, and then, of course, Linda's phones and 10 computers and things will have to be moved and hooked up. 11 And, we're going to try to make that move as quickly as 12 possible. Most of the furniture that goes in is new 13 furniture, which is already here. It's ready to be set. 14 And, she will move very little, actually. Reading machines 15 and computers and things like this, but actual furniture, 16 desks, chairs, and that sort of thing, most is going to be 17 older -- older furniture that's going to be either discarded 18 or taken to use elsewhere. But, as I see it, this is going 19 to probably be the way the contractor is going. To get the 20 Law Library, or Stage 2 of Phase 3B, finished will take 21 probably another six weeks, if we're lucky. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, we'll have the majority 23 of the work done by the time for our grand opening? 24 MR. LONGNECKER: I hope so. I'm certainly 25 pushing to get it -- get it done. The roof work to go on 161 1 the outside of the building there, that -- yesterday I was 2 told that they need three more days of roof work to complete 3 the roof on this -- on this building. They've, of course, 4 been delayed by weather. Of course, they should have been 5 working on it last fall when we had good weather, but that's 6 beside the point. To get it finished, they need three more 7 days. They've got today. I know they're up there working 8 today, just doing mostly metal work, but they still have 9 more asphalt felt to put down and cap sheet and that sort of 10 thing. They've still got railings to finish. We've still 11 got to get the east ramp open. Again, the reason it's not 12 open is because of the roof work. They need that to get 13 down debris and whatever that's coming off of that. But, we 14 still have other minor things to do, like a building 15 directory. Dedication plaque is not here, which is all 16 included in the contract, and then that's -- that's about 17 it. We should be finished. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: How are they coming on the 19 punch list from the district courtroom area? 20 MR. LONGNECKER: That's pretty well 21 completed. 22 MR. WALKER: They have most of those items 23 completed. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good. 25 MR. LONGNECKER: There's a few items above 162 1 the ceiling that we have noted that perhaps are not done, 2 which will be included and documented. If they don't wish 3 to finish it, that's about all we can do. What was it? 4 Some debris above the ceilings, some places where the 5 ceiling's cracked and should have been reinforced. There 6 are a few suspension wires that are not tight, things like 7 that. They will be documented. But, the ceiling is in, and 8 the other punch list items -- well, for the most part, they 9 have been taken care of. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: We did receive a letter from 11 the Jail Commission approving the holding cells. 12 MR. LONGNECKER: That's right. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I sent you a copy of that, 14 gave each of the Commissioners -- 15 MR. LONGNECKER: That's done, and I believe 16 the Sheriff has been using those cells. I know I saw it was 17 locked up with inmates in the cell the other day. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about the -- the 20 leak in the new facility on -- inside of this wall here, in 21 that hallway? 22 MR. LONGNECKER: That was taken care of. Was 23 it not? 24 MR. WALKER: As far as I know, it was taken 25 care of. 163 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the answer to 2 my question? It has been taken care of? 3 MR. LONGNECKER: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, we're going to 5 put new tile in there? 6 MR. WALKER: Ceiling tile in, yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. LONGNECKER: Yeah, they'll be replacing 9 any damaged tile from leaking. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Let me redo my 11 question. When will we be replacing the new -- the damaged 12 tile in the ceiling? 13 MR. LONGNECKER: Well -- 14 MR. WALKER: His man is on site now, so I -- 15 no reason he couldn't do it right now. 16 MR. LONGNECKER: If we didn't get it today, 17 he's gone. He finished what he was doing up here. But -- 18 MR. WALKER: Oh. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I haven't been over 20 there. I was over there -- 21 MR. LONGNECKER: He'll be back on the Stage 2 22 upstairs to do that. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was over there one 24 day last week, and someone -- a Deputy Sheriff pointed out, 25 "Look at that; there's a brand new leak," and it looked like 164 1 it was wet to me then. I haven't been over there -- over 2 there since the last hearing. 3 MR. LONGNECKER: We had a leak in the middle 4 of the courtroom, which was not a roof leak; it was a 5 condensate thing from the one rooftop unit. That's been 6 corrected. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else? 8 MS. PIEPER: I have a question. Is there 9 going to be a button for handicapped that opens the side 10 entrances where the ramp is? 11 MR. LONGNECKER: Yes. Yes, that has to be 12 installed. 13 MR. WALKER: It was approved by the Court 14 some while ago, and they just haven't gotten it ordered and 15 in. Supposed to be in in February. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Any other questions 17 while we've got our boys here? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do we have to vote? 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: We voted on the agenda item; 20 yes, we did. Okay. Thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate it. 21 Okay, let's go back and clean up and wrap up. Item 2.7, 22 consider and discuss appointing replacement to the AACOG 23 Landfill Committee. Commissioner Baldwin. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. As per -- 25 Dr. Georgia Zanaris of AACOG informed me that we needed to 165 1 make one more appointment to that Landfill Committee in Kerr 2 County, and I -- it is my appointment, so I wish to appoint 3 Mr. J. F. "Skip" Plangman to that position. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is that a motion? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, that was a 6 motion. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 9 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 10 appoint Mr. J. F. "Skip" Plangman to the AACOG Landfill 11 Committee. Any questions or comments? If not, all in 12 favor, raise your right hands. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 17 8, consider and discuss accepting 25 park benches from 18 Allied Advertising in San Antonio and authorize Road and 19 Bridge Department to transport same to Kerrville for use in 20 Flat Rock and Center Point Parks. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It has happened, 22 Judge. I so move. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 25 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 166 1 accept 25 park benches from Allied Advertising in San 2 Antonio and authorize Road and Bridge retroactively to 3 transport same from San Antonio to Kerrville to be used in 4 the Flat Rock and Center Point Parks. I'd just like to 5 point out that the reason this was -- was done before we 6 could bring it to Court was it was a first-come, 7 first-served offer. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: And the quality of the 10 benches deteriorated significantly the further down the list 11 you got. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. We got 13 some good ones. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: We got some nice ones. All 15 in favor, raise your right hands. 16 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 20 9, consider and discuss approval of Cooperative Agreement 21 between the Office of the Attorney General of the State of 22 Texas and Kerr County, Texas, and authorize County Judge to 23 sign same. This is an agreement relating to child support 24 that I know very little about. 25 MS. SOVIL: It's the same thing we've done 167 1 every year. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is it? 3 MS. SOVIL: Yes. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 5 MS. SOVIL: It's a repeat. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want you to notice 7 down there that the representative of the Child Support 8 Division goes by the name of Baldwin. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Intimately familiar with 10 child support? Is that what you're suggesting? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions or comments? 13 Do I have a motion? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I so move. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 17 Baldwin, seconded by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 18 approve the Cooperative Agreement between the Office of the 19 Attorney General and Kerr County, and authorize County Judge 20 to sign same. Any questions or comments? If not, all in 21 favor, raise your right hands. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 168 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This fellow has been 2 to my family reunion, and he's a black man. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Oh, really? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have a good time. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'll bet. Finally, Item 6 Number 18, consider and discuss amendment of Kerr County 7 budget to increase Insurance Liability by $1,250, with the 8 funds to come from Nondepartmental Contingency. Also, per 9 the request of the Auditor, we need a handbill for this 10 amount. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: This is because of the 13 addition of the third attorney, right? 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Addition of what? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Third attorney. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Moved by Commissioner 19 Williams, seconded by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 20 approve the amendment of the County Attorney's budget to 21 increase Insurance Liability by $1,250, funds to come from 22 Nondepartmental Contingency, and to authorize a hand check 23 in that amount. Any further questions or comments? If not, 24 all in favor, raise your right hands. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 169 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Anybody else 4 have any business? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I think we had 6 something to do with -- David had something. 7 MR. MOTLEY: That was it. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: He doesn't want to say 9 anything, 'cause we could change our minds. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're not going to 11 discuss -- you were going to make some changes to the -- 12 MR. MOTLEY: Oh, I made the changes. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It just changed -- 14 MR. MOTLEY: The deal on the interstate 15 travel is to protect the constitutional right of interstate 16 commerce. That's where that came from. And, there's no 17 right to, you know, inter-county commerce, per se, under the 18 U.S. Constitution. That's why they included that language. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, not to infringe 20 on any constitutional rights on interstate travel, can we 21 further define, however, that inter-county travel or 22 intra-city, within counties? 23 MR. MOTLEY: Inter-county travel? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Intra. 25 MR. MOTLEY: Intra-county travel? 170 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Intra-county. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, it would have to 3 be within -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, inter-county is 5 between counties. Intra is within counties. 6 MR. MOTLEY: Right. I thought you had said 7 inter-county travel. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can we -- 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think -- I think that's -- 10 we've approved the draft. I think that's an issue that you 11 might ask David to look at and get with him and bring it up 12 when we come to adopt the actual order. 13 MR. MOTLEY: He may not be talking 14 constitutional; he may be talking practicalities on that, I 15 think, is what you're staying. I'll bring y'all the retyped 16 version here in a few minutes. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Before we adjourn, I'd like 18 to remind everyone, as you make your recommendations for the 19 Redistricting Committee, please provide names and addresses 20 and phone numbers. We will be sending material to them and 21 we need to know where they want the material. Also, it's 22 important in this committee that the committee reflect the 23 gender and ethnic makeup of the county, as well as the 24 precinct, so please keep that in mind as you -- as you 25 approach people to serve on this committee. 171 1 MS. SOVIL: He needs an Executive Session. 2 MR. MOTLEY: I may have a matter that I need 3 to discuss or inform the Court about. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. At this time, the 5 Court's going into Executive Session. Anyone who is not 6 authorized to be here is so excused. Jannett, will you flip 7 the sign for us, please? 8 MR. MOTLEY: It's a quick item, I can tell 9 you that. 10 (The open session was closed at approximately 2:10 p.m., and an Executive Session was 11 held, the transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 12 - - - - - - - - - - 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's go back into open 14 session. 15 MR. MOTLEY: Okay, thanks. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do you want to open the door 17 for us and we can -- 18 MR. MOTLEY: Sure. I'll flip the sign, too. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- and then we can adjourn. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Thanks, David. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioners Court is now 22 returned to open session. Is there any action necessary as 23 a result of the Executive Session? Finding none, is there 24 any other business to come before us? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: None. 172 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: If not, we stand adjourned. 2 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:15 p.m.) 3 - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 6 7 8 9 STATE OF TEXAS | 10 COUNTY OF KERR | 11 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 12 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 13 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 14 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 15 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 26th day of January, 16 2001. 17 18 19 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 20 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 21 Certified Shorthand Reporter 22 23 24 25