1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Workshop 10 Thursday, July 26, 2001 11 10:45 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 Alternatives to HCYEC Master Plan 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 On Thursday, July 26, 2001, at 10:45 a.m., a workshop of 2 the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's 10:45. Let's go ahead 7 and call to order this workshop of the Kerr County 8 Commissioners Court, topic being consider and discuss 9 alternatives to the Master Plan adopted for Hill Country 10 Youth Exhibition Center. Commissioner Williams, do you want 11 to kick this off, buddy? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. 13 We've talked a good bit, formally and informally, about how 14 and what to do at the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center, and 15 haven't arrived at any conclusions, except we know that 16 there are some things that need to be done and improved and 17 enhanced. And, we've done some noodling around on secondary 18 issues and order of magnitude and all that good stuff, and 19 still haven't arrived at any conclusions. What I've done 20 today is invited back to help us through this process a 21 little bit, perhaps, and examine some new options and 22 alternatives -- invited back Bill Blankenship, who is the 23 original architect who did the original Master Plan. And, 24 in the material I gave you, in front of you, I shared with 25 you again, for your benefit, the Judge's memorandum 3 1 regarding his thoughts on this matter, and two different 2 iterations that Bill prepared at our request. And 3 Commissioner Letz has seen these iterations. I think maybe 4 some of you -- but we haven't had an opportunity to talk 5 about it before today. 6 What I'd like to do is -- is have just a 7 free-wheeling discussion about "what if." If we don't like 8 what we see because -- for whatever reason, because it may 9 be too big, may be too grandiose, it may be unnecessary, may 10 not be utilitarian in your minds, may not be what we need, 11 then I'd like to -- I'd like for us to have just a really 12 open exchange about where we go and what we do and what do 13 you think will work. Before I go up and pose the first 14 option, I'll turn it over to my committee co-chair. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Bill summed it up 16 just fine. I think -- I mean, the -- we've all looked at it 17 a great deal, lots of -- talked about different options, and 18 I think we're at the point that we really just need to 19 decide what the plan needs to be, but based on the numbers, 20 and they're probably pretty accurate. Then go from there 21 and, you know, fit it into the budget process as to what 22 that decision is, as to -- if we do anything or if we decide 23 to scrap the whole deal and keep what we got and try to 24 repair it and patch it. Either way, it's going to have a 25 big impact on the budget. And, the -- I guess we need some 4 1 sort of timeline, as well. So -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. I'm going to 3 pose the first what-if. I want to call this book to your 4 attention. This is the -- this is the summary of activities 5 and -- that Sudie Burditt, our Convention and Visitors 6 Bureau, presented to the City Council. With her permission, 7 we've gotten some copies; there are some very interesting 8 stats about what tourism is all about in Kerr County, and 9 there's one interesting reference which I've highlighted for 10 you to take a look at. Let me open the discussion with a 11 what-if, and -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Before we do that, Bill, 13 first of all, our thanks to Bill Blankenship of Quorum 14 Architects for coming down, facilitating the presentation 15 this morning. Bill, we really appreciate your interest and 16 time, and thanks to the members of the Master Plan Committee 17 who have managed to find time to come in this morning. We 18 want this to be free-flowing. It is a workshop and it is 19 being recorded, though, so feel free to speak up, but when 20 you speak up, at least the first couple times, do identify 21 yourself so we can get it on the record, but we're not going 22 to make this anything very formal. Also, this room is 23 available until about 1:30. If we don't finish by noon and 24 we want to drive through, that's fine. If we want to stop 25 and take a break and come back, we'll probably reconvene 5 1 down in the County Court at Law courtroom just down the 2 hall. So, with that -- 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Before you start, I don't 5 know what you're getting ready to say, but -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just going to throw 7 out a what-if. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It seems that a good way 9 to start may also be, you know, things that people want to 10 delete and get rid of them, and things that are critical. I 11 mean, have deletions and absolutes as a -- things that we 12 have to have, things that we need to get rid of or could get 13 rid of. That may be a way -- Bill and I have not talked 14 about it. That may or may not be what you're getting ready 15 to do. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it's sort of. 17 One of the -- what I'm going to propose talks about 18 eliminating something. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Could I interrupt just 20 one second? There's one other issue, I think, which 21 underlies this a little bit, and I don't know what the 22 format for this discussion would be, so I'll ask the 23 question. At some point, I think we need to -- I need to 24 better understand and to perhaps be retold -- maybe I was 25 told before and didn't get it -- of what our real purpose is 6 1 in anything that we do. I know the one option that says we 2 got to repair what's there. I know that, and I understand 3 that purpose. And I need to know and understand and be able 4 to communicate on what is the additional purpose. And I 5 know we've charged the committee to go off and look at that, 6 but I haven't heard that succinctly stated. Is this an 7 economic development issue, for example? Is it a tourism 8 issue, which perhaps has economic development overtones? 9 (Fire alarm went off.) 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Going to be a short 11 meeting. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But, anyway, so, the 14 -- if we're not going to address that at some point, we need 15 to. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a critical 17 issue. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Because I've got 19 some -- and I think that -- I think -- let me just put it 20 this way. I have been totally underwhelmed -- 21 under-whelmed -- by the lack of public clamor for us to go 22 do something other than maintain what we have. I haven't 23 had one phone call that says, Hey, we got to have a better 24 exhibit center. We've got to have a better way to have 25 concerts, or whatever it is. I haven't had one input. 7 1 There's -- in my constituency, at least, all the comments 2 I've heard -- I've had a couple negative ones, but those 3 don't particularly concern me. It's that I haven't had any, 4 like I said. So -- and maybe that -- I don't know what the 5 other experiences have been by the members of the Court, 6 but -- but then I think we need to understand what it is -- 7 what swamp it is we're draining with this project, and I 8 just haven't got there yet. So, somewhere in here, we need 9 to discuss that enough for me to understand it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- if I could 11 follow up on that, I think the -- the people that use the 12 facilities, which is primarily ag, they tell me on a very 13 regular basis it is horrible. I mean, people that use it, 14 and that's -- and primarily, when I say that, that's the 15 directors of the Hill Country Youth Junior Livestock Show. 16 That group says it needs work. It doesn't work, hog pens -- 17 I mean, it doesn't fit their needs for stock show any 18 longer. And the -- the hog portion of it is just 19 antiquated, dangerous, and medical problems to the animals 20 and livestock, and probably people, so there's that. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: To keep the thing 22 going, before you get off that thought, let me just say, 23 that's a good example of what I'm talking about. I think 24 that is something -- the current charter of the facility is 25 Kerr County youth. Okay? 8 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If there's somehow we 3 are not meeting the requirements of that charter, then 4 whether it be a maintenance thing or something that's no 5 longer usable or whatever the case, that's exactly what I'm 6 saying. I think we can address that and nobody's going to 7 question that. It's when we go beyond that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. To me, that's -- 9 I mean, the -- it doesn't meet the current needs of the 10 Junior Livestock Show. The other problem that I get is -- 11 primarily addresses the -- the old -- I don't know what you 12 want to call it. The old portion over there, the old arena 13 where the hog barn section -- 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Also the meeting room 16 area. And every time we have any kind of a function 17 there -- because there's nothing much else in Kerrville; we 18 have lots of, you know, plant shows, tool sales, all this 19 kind of stuff. If the weather conditions go bad, whether it 20 rains or it's cold or it's hot, that building doesn't work, 21 because it leaks, air-conditioners don't work and the heater 22 doesn't work, so you end up with a -- a problem for the use 23 of that building. And the other complaints that I hear are 24 from people that use the arena, which are not youth, 25 primarily for rodeo-type events; that it is a mediocre, at 9 1 best, rodeo arena. Because the configuration of the 2 construction was, it was not intended to be a rodeo -- and 3 these are the three complaints. The first two are probably 4 from a -- you know, the most important to me. One is the -- 5 I mean, I think we -- I'm obligated or committed to keeping 6 that facility in good repair for the youth of the community, 7 the ag side of it. Next would be to have -- you know, to 8 me, to try to have some sort of a meeting space out there 9 that we can use for all the 4-H programs and everything 10 else, that is -- 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Youth programs. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Youth programs, and 13 climate control. That could always be used for other 14 events, if you have a facility -- that can be youth events, 15 or it will also meet any other kind of that size meeting 16 facility. Those are the two priorities. The other part, if 17 we're going to try to make it into a -- more of a tourism 18 draw, economic development, then you go into the rodeo arena 19 and that side of it, which would be where I see -- if there 20 is growth, that would be in that area. But that's not 21 youth-related and not as important, but it's -- you know, if 22 you're going to do major overhaul -- 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: To keep the topic 24 going, let me just say that, to me, once we get out of that 25 under our current charter from what that facility is there 10 1 for, once we get past those first two issues that you 2 mentioned, that we're into an economic development program. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Project. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And I'm not certain, 7 on the -- reviewing the bidding, that the County should 8 drive an economic development project. If there -- I mean, 9 I -- in my experience, economic development -- and I ran a 10 foundation that did that. We never had a governmental 11 organization put together a total project that then we went 12 out and tried to solicit funds for or get grants or 13 whatever. The economic development foundation, in the case 14 that I'm talking about, would put the project together, then 15 go to the governmental agencies, go to the private sector, 16 go for grant money or whatever, to pull it together. That's 17 the way the Space Center in Houston was built. That's the 18 way the Enron Stadium was built in Harris County, the two 19 I'm most familiar with. So, what I'm saying is not that I'm 20 against any of it. It's just -- but who should be the 21 driving force behind it? If the County is the driving force 22 behind an economic development project, then what's the 23 economic development foundation there for? Because they 24 should be driving it. Or the Chamber, or a combination of 25 community and businesses drive economic development, not 11 1 government. Government needs to get out of the way and let 2 those economic development forces put projects together that 3 meet the economic development requirements of the community. 4 See, and that's the philosophical thing that underlies this. 5 And I didn't mean to interrupt, but I just think that's got 6 to get addressed here sometime, because I don't understand 7 why we would be in the economic development business as the 8 primary driver. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, to sum-up -- 10 then I'll quit for a while -- I think the first two points 11 -- this is how I think it got into where it is. To do the 12 first two points, it doesn't take a major step to add a 13 little bit to it, and so you, I mean, combine economic 14 development and fix what we have to fix. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it's kind of 17 economies of scale. That's how come I think it got as big 18 as it got, as large as it's become. And I think you go back 19 and look at the -- I mean, at the core thing that we need to 20 be responsible for, and if the -- the City and the Chamber 21 and the KEDF don't want to get behind the full economic 22 development portion, I agree that it isn't going to go 23 anywhere, 'cause I think the only way you can do it is do 24 some sort of bond issue. And, if that happens, then you 25 need to -- we need to pare it back to a minimum and fix the 12 1 two -- maintain the ag portion of it and get the 4-H portion 2 in order. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I think, really, 4 we're -- a lot of us are talking about the same thing. You 5 all have got my memo, so you kind of know where I'm coming 6 from, but let's look at the Junior District Livestock Show 7 as the model for what we need out there. What would we 8 need? We need space to show the animals, which means we 9 need an arena. We need some pen space, and we need a hall 10 in which you can have the show and the presentation and the 11 auction. So, you start with that, and you want to have a 12 nice hall. You don't want to have what we have now, which 13 doesn't function. So, it's not a far step from having a 14 nice hall to having a space that can also be used to attract 15 small trade shows, conventions and the like, because it's 16 basically the same concept. You want a large area where you 17 can put a lot of people in. You want a place where you can 18 fix food, and you want an area where you can put pens in or 19 exhibits or booths. It's the same thing. So, my point of 20 view, if you fix Junior District Livestock Show problem and 21 give them a facility that continues to allow them to have 22 the fifth largest show in the state of Texas, you basically 23 have also developed an exhibit center that can be used to 24 attract small conventions and trade shows, because you've 25 provided everything that the Convention Center needs for 13 1 that marketing effort. But, it's an add-on into -- it's an 2 adjunct to the core function. So, if the -- the absolute 3 core function costs $2 million 2 or $2 million 5, you can 4 probably add the break-out rooms and the exhibit space 5 behind the big meeting room and the -- and the kitchen. So, 6 that's my point of view, is that we have to fix what we have 7 now so it continues to function and serve the community. 8 But, with a small step forward, we can add on capability 9 that I think the community would be well-served by. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If the community wants 11 it, I would agree. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I've had many 13 conversations with people in the business community in 14 Kerrville who are 100 percent behind the notion of the 15 exhibit center -- exhibit hall. But, I look at it as not 16 building an exhibit hall and then trying to fill it. I look 17 at it as taking care of the needs of the community. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: For a large meeting room, for 20 the Junior District Livestock Show dinner, for my son's 21 graduation when it got rained out at Antler Stadium. For 22 the Tivy Booster Club sports banquet, for the prom from 23 Center Point, for the prom from Ingram, and serving the 24 community, while at the same time providing an extra 25 attraction for economic development. Economic development 14 1 is not the driver. The economic development is the 2 beneficiary of the need to preserve the facility for its 3 core uses. That's the way I come at it. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If I could follow up 6 on it just a little bit, Larry, by saying that if we do 7 those things with -- keeping in mind the needs of the Junior 8 Livestock Show and other agricultural events we have, we're 9 willing to spend X number of dollars to improve the 10 facility, then I think we would be remiss if we didn't look 11 at the economic impact and take a look at the existing 12 venues in Kerr County and their limitations. And there are 13 many limitations in what can happen here right now. If you 14 stop to think about what the Convention and Visitors Bureau 15 books in here and the type of shows it books or trade shows 16 or conventions or meetings or whatever, and then you take a 17 look at their second list of those that they cannot book 18 because they don't have sufficient facilities, then, 19 frankly, somebody has to be the driver in it, and if 20 economic development is -- is the driving impetus, then why 21 not the County? If the Economic Development Foundation or 22 the Chamber or whomever else for, whatever their reasons, 23 don't choose to be the driver, then if the County has a need 24 to improve the facility, it too can be the driver and 25 accomplish a number of things. 15 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't disagree with 2 that either, except for the fact that the driving function 3 has to come up with a plan to raise the money. And what I'm 4 saying is -- is that once we go beyond the charter of the 5 facility as it is now, now we're in a pure economic 6 development world, and that the County is being asked -- 7 required, 'cause nobody else will do it, for whatever 8 reason. The County then has to look at how do we raise the 9 funds. Well, we can get some grants. We can get -- we can 10 do certificates of obligation, we can do bond issues. We 11 can -- probably not have a hotel/motel tax; I think we've 12 decided against that. But, at any rate -- 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I haven't. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh, okay. If we 15 haven't, then okay, we can put it up for a vote again. But, 16 I -- you know, the problem is that we -- it's not a problem. 17 It's just that it's a concern that I have that -- that we 18 are ending up as this $5 million, $7 million, $2 million, 19 whatever the number is -- the $2 million may be what it 20 takes to get past those first two purposes that Jonathan was 21 talking about. If that's what it takes, that's what it 22 takes. But when we go beyond that, now we're doing 23 something that's really questionably not in our charter, and 24 that's all that I'm -- and I'm not saying -- it's not that 25 we couldn't do it, and if nobody else does, maybe we end up 16 1 doing it at the County level. But I'm not sure that's the 2 way it should be organized. I've never seen one done quite 3 that way, is all I'm saying. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll cite you one, 5 although it's totally out of our arena in terms of scope, 6 and there's very little comparison in terms of demographics 7 of Kerr County versus the one I'm going to cite. But, we 8 just returned from Beaumont, and that county engaged in a 9 massive economic development project, and it's going to cost 10 $55 million, and it's solely driven by economic -- economic 11 development. And, again, I -- their tax base is not our tax 12 base -- or ours is not theirs, I should put it that way. 13 And their reasons for doing it are not, probably, parallel 14 with us, but the fact of the matter was, the County was the 15 driver, and the County determined, because of its tax base 16 and its obligations, it could do it on certificates of 17 obligation, which we may not choose to be our vehicle of -- 18 for whatever. And the scope of the project that we would 19 ultimately develop would not be nearly the scope of that, 20 but the fact of the matter is, the County was the driver, 21 and was the driver for economic development reasons. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question for Larry. And 23 I'm just -- 'cause I don't know how you would do it. Is it 24 possible for the County to meet the needs -- the first core 25 needs that I've identified, everyone would agree on that, 17 1 and then have a plan of how it could be -- that could be 2 expanded to the additional part and turn that over to 3 Economic Development Foundation? 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Absolutely. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then have it still be 6 a County facility, I mean, but let them -- 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the Foundation go out 9 and do the second portion of it, and us just commit, okay, 10 we're going to -- 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's a model I'm 12 very familiar with, so the answer to your question is yes, 13 that makes a lot of sense. In fact, that takes advantage of 14 all the work we've had done that -- that we paid for to get 15 what I think is a very good product that did exactly what we 16 asked them to do, and it would take advantage of that. I'm 17 just saying that once that happens, or once we know what 18 that scope of work is, that's in the economic development 19 arena. Not that we don't participate, not that we don't 20 have a piece of the action. That usually does happen. But, 21 I'm saying for us to be out trying to raise money for this 22 economic development project through all sort of means may 23 not be the appropriate way to do it. It needs to come from 24 the community that gets served by that, and that is the 25 business community, that is the -- the Convention and 18 1 Visitors Bureau's mission, which of course is to bring in 2 that sort of thing. And then it all leads to economic 3 development for the community, and that's an E.D.F. 4 responsibility. So, what you just said would be great, far 5 as I'm concerned. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it could be -- and if 7 we could figure out a way to phase it where we could do our 8 part and then have it -- basically, set out a table for the 9 community to pick up and raise the money for whatever they 10 have to do to do the -- 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Form a foundation. 12 Form a separate foundation, may be the way to go. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's the 14 way -- I mean, would be the ideal vehicle. I think that was 15 outlined in the Judge's memo. Form a -- an economic 16 improvement corporation or whatever, and a joint -- this is 17 a venture that begs to be jointly sponsored by the City and 18 the County. It really does. The -- the merchants and the 19 hoteliers in the city are going to be the prime 20 beneficiaries of the economic rollout from that facility. 21 It really begs to be a joint project. Thus far, it hasn't 22 developed that way, for whatever -- whatever reasons. And 23 if it doesn't develop that way, is it a bad idea or is it a 24 bad -- is it an idea that's worthy of the County taking 25 forward? 19 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bill, I think if the 2 County would just go ahead -- and one of the -- to me, we 3 have a time issue, because of the conditions out there right 4 now and the -- the pending urgency of some of these repairs. 5 If the County could just step up and say, "We're doing this 6 portion," period, and we would love to participate or help 7 or do whatever we need to to get the rest of it done. We're 8 committing to this. We can do the rest of it through the 9 joint City/County -- we can do the rest of it through 10 economic development, grants, whatever. But, the -- but to 11 get us off high center and get us moving, pare back to what 12 the County -- you know, some version that Larry can 13 identify, I mean, just as a -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's it. That's 15 close, I think. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You said something -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, my position 18 hasn't changed from what it was in one year. I still think 19 Larry's hitting the nail on the head, and so are you at this 20 time. I just think that -- and Fred's presentation is 21 wonderful. Great information. But, the -- the thing you 22 have to be careful about, I think, is how easy it is, once 23 we do our project and meet the needs that we're required to 24 meet -- and that's the agriculture and youth in the county. 25 Once we meet that need, then it's easy to say we need to 20 1 build a kitchen, and it's easy to say we need to build a 2 horse arena, and for just a few dollars more, we -- you 3 know, it's -- that's easy to do. And -- but Larry's hitting 4 the nail on the head. We're not -- county government's not 5 in the economic development business at all. That needs to 6 come from the community. And that's exactly where I've been 7 for one year on this thing, so I haven't changed. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where would you like 9 to go from here? 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. Well, I'd like 11 to hear -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to see the 13 presentation. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I don't know 15 that the presentation is -- it's examining some of the 16 information. I think, Bill, you have the capability of 17 moving these modules around; is that right? 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mm-hmm. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's just start with 20 discussion. What if, looking at this facility from the 21 highway toward the facility -- 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's the one that you'll 23 get into. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- that this 25 facility, which is the main arena, be constructed. The 21 1 middle facility module here, which is our existing arena, be 2 retained, the exhibit hall go away, and the -- and the 3 convention-type facility be -- instead of built in the area 4 as originally proposed, be moved over here. All the -- any 5 and all of the ancillary facilities that are unnecessary or 6 overstated beyond reason should go away, and in that type of 7 a what-if, the goal would be to reduce the cost. So, let's 8 just throw it out there for beginning discussion and see 9 where we go from there. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bill, to put that plan, I 11 guess, in terms of -- Larry and Buster and I were talking 12 about it a little bit. You would put in -- just trying to 13 really pare it back to the core bit -- build the second 14 arena. And, what -- what would be the thing -- out of those 15 three items, what do you have to build to meet the County's 16 base responsibility? I guess that's the question. We need 17 to -- well, for the expansion of the Youth Stock Show, which 18 I would take that to be the larger arena. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: This may help. Here's the 21 Youth Stock Show as it exists now, with just a little bit of 22 add-on, and that's the -- that's what they would be taking 23 up. Here's what we projected, and this is -- from figures 24 that I was given by the Ag people, that's what would happen 25 in five years for the space that they would need for the 22 1 show. So, essentially, what's happening is here, what I see 2 as this area, and all that where their facility is now. 3 Right now, that one allows for them not to have to move 4 people out and schedule where they're taking the pens out 5 and back and forth, so that's where we develop that. That 6 utilizes both arenas and the backhoed area. When it gets 7 expanded, they can use this. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, in cost per square 9 foot, what is the price difference between building an arena 10 and a building that is not freestanding? Basically, having 11 more of a convention-type thing; you have some pillars and 12 columns in it as in a barn, as opposed to a free-spanned 13 arena. Has to be -- is there a -- what's the savings? 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Probably somewhere around 15 $5 or $6 a square foot, depending on what you're doing. The 16 air-conditioned arena, of course, a lot of it is in the 17 air-conditioning, and the duct work and stuff like that, 18 you're talking about -- probably talking about somewhere 19 half a million and above for HVAC. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, how many square foot 21 is this -- is that arena? Or the small one? Either one, I 22 guess. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: With all this moving 24 around, I lost all my figures. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: While you're doing 23 1 that, is there -- in our packages, or else -- where is this 2 total cost associated with one or both of these? In other 3 words, this one is -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The original plan, 5 Larry? 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Original plan was 8 what, seven? 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Seven, three. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Seven, three. 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And you got to realize, 12 this is almost a year ago. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, a year ago. 14 Seven, three, so it's whatever now. 15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Arena Number 1 is about 16 65,000 square feet. Arena Number 2 is 57, 2. That's in 17 that -- that's all in that -- did I give that to y'all? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. So, to go for -- 19 it's about $300,000 difference from a free-spanned 20 arena-type building versus a -- a building that would 21 have -- 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Pole-type building. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A pole-type building. 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And there are also areas -- 25 the way this thing was set up was to conform to some 24 1 configurations that we had originally planned on multiple 2 things going on, so we've got two barns. You combine the 3 barns, you're going to save; an economy of scale. So, 4 instead of maybe having a 200-stall barn, you might have a 5 300, like we originally had, and then portable stalls so 6 you've got that kind of thing. But, one of the things I 7 wanted to emphasize -- and I know that we keep talking about 8 the equestrian side of this. The equestrian side of this is 9 only a result of what we were trying to do to accommodate 10 the Youth Stock Show. That probably takes up more space 11 than any of the other things combined to operate, judging on 12 that 5-year-out situation. 13 So, what you're looking at is the equestrian 14 facility and calling it, like, a horse show/rodeo is the 15 fact that you get a lot of economic return for that. But, 16 in the reality, that then functions very versatilely for all 17 the other things that are involved. A pole barn does not. 18 It will only function for a few things, and I don't think 19 you'd want it for your -- to have your graduation services 20 in, all that kind of thing. It needs to be open so that it 21 can be more versatile. That's the problem we get into with 22 pole barn stuff. And that's part of the problem with the 23 facility as it exists right now, is this -- it's got the 24 extra bend in there and you only get, like, about 100 feet, 25 and that's why the rodeo guys are complaining, 'cause they 25 1 need at least 130. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In the -- do you have 3 a -- a cost calculation if you were to -- well, to do Bill's 4 plan right there, which would be to build one arena, leave 5 that -- some of the current, good arena as-is, and then 6 build a -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Take out the 8 exhibit -- 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: What we had in here 10 originally was the exhibit area. The reason I put it in 11 there is because then we were just doing interior -- you 12 have to have a roof; you have to have walls. Just a more 13 economical way to do that 20,000 square feet. And, that 14 exhibit hall was running about $540,000 sitting inside 15 there. To pull it out, I think you're probably adding about 16 30 percent to it, 'cause now I've got to put a roof on 17 there, I got to put exterior walls and -- and add to that. 18 But I'm also, in the meantime, not having to -- I'm not 19 concreting this, not doing a few things. I think it might 20 be a wash. I'd like to be able to go back and look at it 21 and make sure, but I think you're probably talking about a 22 wash. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think from a -- 24 a community standpoint, it's easier to understand not 25 building a building inside a building. I mean, to me, that 26 1 was one of the things people had a hard time visualizing 2 what we were doing with it. That building can be used 3 as-is, as pens and -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Clean it up. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Clean it up. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It would still function 7 like it functions now. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As it does now. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It would be able to be 10 utilized for, say, smaller shows and some things -- we don't 11 have a lot of things going on. You can also just bring in 12 trade shows, car shows, that kind of thing, and not have to 13 put the expense on them coming to an air-conditioned arena. 14 And what -- I'll tell you, I was talking to Bill this 15 morning and thinking about this on the way down here. One 16 of the things that I had originally considered down here, 17 and we had talked about, was the fact that you have an older 18 sector here. And, in my mind, I had always looked on that 19 as maybe a problem, because of -- of their ability to do 20 things and get out. But, in reality, if you do book this 21 thing with trade shows, antique car shows, gun shows, those 22 might be the people that are coming there the most, for 23 something to do, and also maybe spending a buck or two one 24 way or the other. So, I think that's a plus in this 25 particular area. 27 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I -- do you have 2 a cost for doing that right there? Or is that one of the 3 ones you've already got? 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah, and I don't have that 5 with me. I don't know if there was a deduct amount in there 6 that gave a cost. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There are some 8 deducts on these two iterations that you provided us, these 9 newer ones. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: To leave the exhibit hall 11 as it is right now? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And keep the -- and provide 14 a new exhibit hall, that 20,000 square feet, with a new 15 arena was going to run about $5 million, 7. And then to 16 totally do away with the new exhibit hall is going to run 17 you about $5 million. And, part of what's going on there is 18 there's some electrical issues and HVAC issues that makes up 19 the difference between it being 540 and 680. So, your base 20 thing that we're talking about right now doing out there is 21 running about $5 million. You take the exhibit hall, you 22 move it out, demolish the existing pens, then I think you're 23 looking at the 540, plus about 30 percent to that. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: So another 150 to build 28 1 that as an independent -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Structure. 3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: -- building. And, like I 4 say, I mean, I can be off. That's kind of going from the 5 gut on my opinion. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: About $150,000 in this 7 essential major repairs to the existing old exhibit 8 center-slash-hog pens, just to keep it functional. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can't -- I don't see 10 how I could figure out how to support any major construction 11 plan out there that leaves that building, period. I mean, I 12 just -- I mean, that building is way beyond its usefulness, 13 and even if you figure out how to get all that concrete -- 14 or all those hog pens in there out and figure out how to 15 concrete it, I wouldn't know -- I mean, that roof's so low 16 back there, it's. 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Its usefulness, the 18 versatility is dead. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Number one priority, to 20 me, is get rid of this building and build something else to 21 replace it. Both from a, you know -- well, for the current 22 uses of it, I mean, it needs to be -- needs to be some sort 23 of an arena area or enclosed area. 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll give you one other 25 scenario. If you were talking about economic development, 29 1 Glen Rose -- the County of Glen Rose is the one that pushed 2 their facility, too. They did it themselves through the 3 County. And, one of the things -- this is prior to Mike 4 Dooley getting there. Once he got there, there was some 5 conversations about ways to cut money and phase things. One 6 of the things that they did, we only put the air handlers in 7 with the duct work. No coils, so there was no HVAC. 8 Because they were a little bit worried about bringing people 9 in, because they really kind of started a year behind. We 10 had the facility, but we had nobody to run it and nobody 11 that was actually going out and getting things. So, they 12 were a little bit leery of doing that, so we left that out. 13 That saved them about -- sort of between $250,000 and 14 $300,000. It still functioned as moving air and keeping it 15 a little bit cooler because of the way we had done some of 16 the insulation. Two years later, they added the air, 17 because they had filled up and there were people that wanted 18 to move their trade shows there but they wanted air in 19 there, and it cost them somewhere between $350,000 and 20 $500,000 to add it back in. But, they did take the time and 21 have that less up front. That's one area that you could 22 make a reduction, and then if you got to that point, add it 23 back in later. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Buster, Larry, Judge, 25 what do y'all think of having those three components out 30 1 there? I mean -- and does -- is that more than ag, or is 2 that ag? I mean, you know, is that what we need to do, or 3 beyond? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm going to 5 agree with you about the existing building, the show -- the 6 old show ring and the hog pens and all that. I'm going to 7 agree with you about that. That building needs to go 8 somewhere else, outside this county. And -- you know, and 9 that's about as far as I can see. Plus, we keep talking 10 about the soil back there being contaminated and -- and 11 several other things like that, and I keep waiting for 12 someone to walk in and prove those kinds of things. You 13 know, instead of just listening to somebody's theories. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Call Bob Dittmar. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is coming from the vet 16 who's -- who goes out there and treats the soil every year 17 before the Junior District Livestock show. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine. I have 19 not seen it, still. But it's those kinds of little things 20 that just -- you know, I just want to be careful, as we move 21 along, that -- that we're dealing with apples and apples. 22 But I agree right now that that building needs to go and 23 something in its place. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You need to replace that 25 square footage, plus some -- plus you need some -- 31 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, you want to make 2 it a little larger. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Go back to your other -- your 4 previous. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm fixing to pull this 6 over so I can take that over and -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're going to move that 8 into the -- 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: I -- I don't have a problem 11 with that. I mean, so long as we basically move what was 12 going to be built inside the current arena as your exhibit 13 meeting space, just move it over and duplicate it, which 14 means a 20,000-square-foot meeting room, a kitchen where you 15 can actually prepare a legitimate meal, and covered concrete 16 space in the back where you can put pens, you can put 17 booths, you can put those things. I'm okay with that. I 18 think that, you know, what we were going to get by building 19 the exhibit hall within the existing arena were the 20 break-out rooms and the concourses along the side, but that 21 was also part of having the three structures that could 22 operate independently. So, we can survive without break-out 23 rooms and concourses, although it may be nice. I still -- I 24 still am not sold on the idea of a climate-controlled arena, 25 because I don't see the use for it. So, I would -- I might 32 1 be real comfortable with tearing down the existing exhibit 2 facility or the concrete building, build the new meeting 3 complex -- meeting room, kitchen, and space in the back. 4 Leave the arena and perhaps shell in this second arena. An 5 alternative to shelling in the second arena would be to 6 build this large barn to show out here, perhaps, and build 7 it in such a way that it could be set up and torn down very 8 easily, so you could set it up for horse stalls, you could 9 set it up for lambs, you could set it up for -- 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's now set up as clear 11 span. I didn't build a pole barn. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't know whether the 13 exhibit hall, the existing arena, and this stall barn would 14 be sufficient for Junior District Livestock show as it is 15 now. I mean, that's -- we're operating in less space than 16 that now, basically, because right now, basically -- well, 17 we have the arena and the old exhibit hall. So, by adding 18 that barn, we're adding capacity as far as the show is 19 concerned. Now, you know, we'd probably have to put walls 20 on that barn in order for it to function for the show, 21 because the show's in January, and it can tend to get a 22 little chilly out there. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bill, can you switch the 24 -- I think this is where we changed up. Switch the pole 25 barn and the arena. 33 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I wouldn't switch them 2 geographically, because I'd leave the space for the arena. 3 I'd just perhaps not do that now, or if I was going to do 4 it, at best, I would shell it in. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What -- 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Put the concrete floor in, 7 and I wouldn't climate control it until it was demonstrated 8 that we needed a concrete floor, 'cause concrete floors are 9 nice, but they create problems when you're doing 10 agricultural events, because each agricultural event 11 requires a different soil surface. You can't have the same 12 soil in there for a hunter/jumper show that you have for a 13 rodeo, that you have for a livestock show, which means you 14 have to have machinery and personnel in order to move that 15 stuff in and out. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: But most of the time the 17 show will pay for that. We do. I put on two shows up there 18 at Will Rogers, and each time we pay for that dirt to be 19 moved, not the facility. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, but you pay the 21 facility to have the machinery and the dirt and the 22 personnel. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: You got to have the machinery 25 and the dirt and the personnel standing by, which means 34 1 somebody's paying the carrying costs to have those items. 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: True. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: And hope the show comes along 4 that wants them. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, I'm -- I'm not there 7 on -- on the climate control, on the concrete floor, but the 8 more I look, particularly at what Bill has done with regard 9 to livestock show, I'm really rolling to the notion that we 10 could use the extra arena, and if we made this new arena 11 bigger, in the sense of longer, it could be used for a rodeo 12 or for more roping events. So, by adding another arena, 13 although it's not climate-controlled and dirt floor, you 14 could add the ability to better service the people we -- 15 that are our primary users right now. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What if you -- if you 17 build an arena, I mean, what Bill was saying, square 18 footage-wise, the arena versus the pole barn is $300,000. 19 You keeping the square footage the same is about a $3,000 20 difference. So, I don't see any reason to build a shell 21 arena and a pole barn. I mean, I would build -- you know, 22 build the arena. I mean, why -- but build the arena and use 23 it instead of the -- and have it, you know, more -- and then 24 if you wanted to make it a climate-controlled arena in the 25 future, then you do that, and then build a pole barn. 35 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm not disagreeing with you. 2 I wasn't really suggesting that we build another arena and a 3 pole barn. I was kind of talking out loud about we could 4 get by with a pole barn, but an arena might actually serve 5 us just as well for not a whole lot more money. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can I -- Sudie, can 7 you tell us, if we had that arena -- refresh our memory -- 8 what could we do with it in terms of providing facilities 9 for groups that you know won't come to Kerrville now? I 10 hate to put you on the spot, but I'm going to put you on the 11 spot. 12 MS. BURDITT: Well, when we talk -- when we 13 talk like -- like Fred is talking now, we're still leaving 14 ourselves with the same type clientele that we have -- that 15 we have now. Maybe a slight upgrade. With the full 16 complex, we're talking about marketing to a completely 17 different group of people. So, we're not -- it's hard to 18 compare -- we're not comparing apples to apples, is what I'm 19 getting at. And a new exhibit hall, trashing the one we 20 have now and placing a new exhibit hall puts us into another 21 market level. Having the arena shell would allow us to do 22 things like -- well, I just had a phone call two weeks ago 23 from the lady who does fruit growers -- Texas Association of 24 Fruit Growers, wanting to know where we stood with this 25 complex. And, even without the air-conditioning, if we had 36 1 the shell arena with the length, the size, and the tall 2 ceilings, they would come. The air-conditioning isn't an 3 issue. The size of the facility and the height of the 4 ceiling is an issue. Same thing for Texas pecan growers. 5 They bring in -- and all of those groups, with the big 6 pieces of equipment that have the heavy lifts and the pecan 7 shakers, the pig pieces of equipment, they need the size. 8 We could still book those groups of people with exactly what 9 Fred's saying. Even though we didn't have -- not even 10 having the seating in the arena. As a shell, the size. The 11 roof, the sides, the size. 12 In this same project, though, we must 13 remember -- and it's not being mentioned -- that in order to 14 be upgrading, it must include parking lots, paved, it must 15 include lights, and it must include quality sanitary 16 facilities. We're nowhere without -- without doing that. 17 It's almost like when -- when Jonathan was saying, let's put 18 in order what we need. It really doesn't make any 19 difference what the buildings are if we have not upgraded 20 sanitary facilities. We're not going to get any of these 21 groups. That's almost -- that's got to be number one. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Could you expand on that, 23 Sudie? What do you -- I don't understand exactly -- I'm not 24 sure I understand exactly what you're saying, "sanitary" -- 25 MS. BURDITT: I'm talking bathrooms, toilets, 37 1 dressing/changing areas, ceiling fans, cleanliness, and 2 ability to keep it clean. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And concessions? 4 MS. BURDITT: Well, and concessions. A 5 catering kitchen, a place -- I -- I mean, right now it's a 6 wonder that we haven't had state health inspectors on us 7 with that concession stand. It's just a miracle. It 8 would -- it would take -- you know, we could do a lot with 9 exactly what Fred's talking about right now. It doesn't put 10 us to that next level. It doesn't bring International Angus 11 breeders back to us. It would meet the needs of the stock 12 show, the District Junior Stock Show. It would meet the 13 needs of the local stock shows, and it would meet the needs 14 of all of our community activities. And, y'all were talking 15 about the things that we were doing, whether we were doing 16 economic development or meeting the charter of 17 youth/agriculture. There's one more sector of things that 18 we're meeting there, and that's community service. The 19 things like the proms, the things like the Humane Society 20 banquet, those are community service events. They're not 21 economic development and they don't meet the needs -- they 22 don't meet the needs of the charter, but they are still 23 things that, as County government with this facility, that 24 we've got to make room for. So, I think we need to talk 25 about community service when we talk about the three sectors 38 1 of what we're doing. 2 Bill, I got off of it. You asked me a direct 3 question and I went into a long spiel. I think the groups 4 would still relate to agriculture, maybe farming, like the 5 pecan growers, like the fruit growers. It would also bring 6 back some of the events that we've lost over the years that 7 have outgrown us, like -- like the cutters. It would also 8 bring back some of the cattle organizations that have gone 9 to other places. We're still getting some of those, but 10 there's some of those that went away 15 years ago, and part 11 of it was the condition of the facilities. Part of it was 12 the size of the facilities. This would meet that need to 13 bring those groups back to us. Again, they're primarily -- 14 they're agriculture-related. They may not be primarily 15 agriculture, but they're agriculture-related. In order 16 to -- this would eliminate the high-end equestrian. It 17 would eliminate -- because those people are looking for 18 climate control. It would eliminate probably some of the 19 high-end registered cattle organizations, but in the next 20 phase we'd pick them up. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 22 MS. BURDITT: Two years or three years down 23 the road, when we did the heat and air in Phase II or Phase 24 III or whatever, we're going to be able to pick up those 25 groups, if you went with the same size shell that Bill has 39 1 drawn in here in the beginning. And -- and just like Fred 2 was saying, if we left it in that location, and even if -- 3 even if that wasn't the decision to do that, and go down and 4 do what we were actually calling horse stalls, but leave it 5 as a pole barn so that it could be goat pens, sheep pens, 6 and pig stalls for the livestock show, but you left the 7 space for that arena to come back in and it be Phase II or 8 Phase III down the road. I truly believe that phasing is -- 9 is the answer. And it's also the answer, from the sales 10 point of view, if we have -- if we have a phase set up and 11 we say in this year we're going to do these things, and in 12 year three we're going to implement Phase II, Phase III. 13 And the things that I'm selling to, we're talking five and 14 six and seven years out. "Oh," I'm going to say, "we'll be 15 able to handle your meeting in 2008 or 2009 because we will 16 have implemented this particular phase." We can already be 17 selling it. Once -- once you've broken ground, once the -- 18 once the architectural designs are done and once you've 19 broken ground and once you've set a set of phases, we can 20 sell it. At this point right now, I can't sell anything, 21 because we haven't started. But once we've started and we 22 have phases, we can move into it. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I want to just say I 24 agree with what you said, but on the issue of sanitary 25 facilities, that -- that's going to be done. I mean, 40 1 that -- we're going to do that right, if we do anything. 2 MS. BURDITT: Right. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: We're going to have proper 4 dressing rooms, proper restrooms, and -- and I understand 5 that. 6 MS. BURDITT: That's the most -- and the 7 parking lot and the lights. You know, a lot of the local 8 events and what I'm calling "community service" events, 9 regardless of what it is -- and Bill referred to our older 10 population. There are a lot of things that take place out 11 there now that we don't get that senior population going to 12 at night, because if they have to park in the boonies, 13 there's no lighting to get them back to their cars, and 14 we're losing that segment because of that. So, those things 15 have to be part of this whole project, and I'm -- I'm 16 assuming when Bill gives us a price of this and this, that 17 he's still leaving the lighting, the paving, and so forth in 18 there, because they're a must to make it all work. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: The immediate lighting and 20 pavement, I think, have to go, but if we phase this thing 21 and we can -- future phases, I'd like to have as part of the 22 future phases general improvements to the grounds. I'm 23 really talking about the area -- 24 MS. BURDITT: Landscaping. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- that's behind the -- the 41 1 4-H offices, over behind the -- what is the outdoor arena, 2 and do some work in there to make it, perhaps, kind of a 3 mini festival ground. Clean it up, run some trails in 4 there, put some -- some electrical in there. And -- but 5 that would be a future phase. 6 MS. BURDITT: Right. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Another one right 8 there. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think on parking and 10 lighting, I put that in the health, safety, and welfare 11 category, along with the sanitary facilities, because what 12 we've got out there now, even for the events we handle 13 today, could be a little dangerous at times, even, just 14 because of lack of paving and -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bill, can you go back 16 over -- if we go with the -- get rid of the pole -- can you 17 delete the pole barn, that purple thing? I think that was a 18 pole barn. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can't have a purple 20 pole barn. Or a pink. Yeah, maroon would work. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Delete that. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Purple pigpen? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just pare it back as much 24 as -- is it better, if that's going to be the basic 25 configuration in the middle up there, to have the arena on 42 1 that side or the other side? 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The reason that arena was 3 set up where it is, is 'cause of the way the grades fall. 4 And what that allowed you to do was have a second floor 5 entry into that large arena, with the bottom floor coming 6 out and then coming out almost on grade. So, it was really 7 set up that way. If you go on the other side, you can't do 8 that, and so everything is at grade. You got to go up, and 9 it causes a lot of problems. This way you can get 10 accessibility for the handicapped in on the second level and 11 on the first level coming from the other side, so it works 12 real well for that. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. I was just -- 14 I mean, my thought -- our reason for asking is that it 15 would -- in that configuration, the concessions, all that 16 stuff, would be in the exhibit hall area, I would think. Or 17 we'd need to put them somewhere else. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think you'd put the 19 kitchen -- let's make a distinction between kitchen and 20 concessions. You'd put the catering-class kitchen, or the 21 kitchen where you would prepare your large meals, contiguous 22 to the big, open room; the exhibit room, let's say, for lack 23 of a better term. But, I think if we did it this way, we'd 24 have to build into the consideration a concession stand. 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. You're going to be 43 1 adding -- 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Probably between the two 3 arenas. By "concession stand," I'm talking about a place 4 where you can get hot dogs -- 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Cokes. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Cokes, drinks, coffee, 7 barbecue sandwiches, if someone wants to bring the 8 sandwiches in. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Restaurant. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which you can finally 11 do that in that concourse. 12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's 50 feet wide; plenty 13 of room to do something like that on the sides. The 14 concourse, of course, was set up for trade shows and 15 lead-ins to anything that went into here, 'cause you'd have 16 everybody walking by. Now, one of the other things to think 17 about is the possibility of taking the exhibit hall -- 18 taking the old configuration we have and just moving it this 19 way. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: So you'd have arena, arena, 21 exhibit hall. 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You'd have arena, exhibit 23 hall, and arena again, but what we'd do is we'd leave this, 24 we'd take the exhibit hall and we'd put it right here, and 25 we'd just move the other arena over. So, let's see. 44 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I can see a plus, 2 but I also see a -- I mean, it's kind of nice to have the 3 exhibit hall away from the ag. 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right between the two. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, this here, it's away 6 from it a little bit. 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: So you could have -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And put it in the -- in 9 the middle. It's surrounded by it. That's just one of the 10 concerns we've had from the youth standpoint. We'd have a 11 horse show -- or not a horse show, whatever kind of -- 12 MS. BURDITT: It would be better, if you were 13 entering -- if you had the prom and the girls were entering 14 in their evening gowns and the guys in their tuxedos, and 15 you were still doing an equestrian event in the arena, it 16 would be better to do them -- have a displacement. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The way they're on 18 here. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exhibit hall on the 20 left, like it's shown. 21 MS. BURDITT: You'd have less dirt, less mud 22 flying, less -- 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Of course, they were going 24 to be separated, so you wouldn't have had that. But -- 25 'cause you'd have the air-conditioned concourse on each 45 1 side, so I don't think it would be a problem. 2 MS. BURDITT: But now we don't have that, 3 right? 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: If you're talking about 5 getting this -- 6 MS. BURDITT: Right, we don't have that any 7 more. So -- so, that becomes an issue. 8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bill, if you use the 10 existing arena as it's shown in the middle -- and you talked 11 about the potential of a concession area, the hot dog 12 concession-type in the concourse on the right-hand side, so 13 it serves both facilities. Could you -- on the left-hand 14 side, right there -- I forgot what I was going to ask you 15 now. Meeting rooms, yeah. Could you do -- do a meeting 16 room so that it serves -- well, what could you do? 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Here. Right here. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, seating. How 19 about seating for that arena? Could you provide seating for 20 that arena on that side? 21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Seating would be right 22 through here. You can't have as much. You can have seating 23 right through here, and then you've got your area right here 24 for concourse. That would be between the two. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 46 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And the meeting rooms are 2 already here. The break-out area is already here on this 3 side. Now, this could be slid over so the meeting rooms 4 come in here, but then you lose one whole side of your 5 functioning arena, which I don't think would work very well. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Now, the only problem is, 8 if you delete that barn, you have no way of getting shows. 9 MS. BURDITT: Don't have stalls. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The stalls, yeah. 11 MS. BURDITT: And when I say stalls, y'all, 12 I'm talking -- it don't matter whether you're putting horses 13 in them or cows in them. 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. Cows, pigs, 15 whatever. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, could the 17 covered barn that we already have right there, can that be 18 expanded? 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You can add on to it. The 20 problem is where it is. Part of the reason that I did what 21 I did was so that you could -- this would function two ways. 22 One, it can function as rodeo-type stuff. It can function 23 as a separate little show town, itself. Whether it's 24 somebody in the county that wants to do something, or 25 whether it's an outside, small, specific-breed show, it can 47 1 function alone. Adding to it, you can't go this way. You 2 could add a little bit this way, but I don't think 3 economically. The only way to go is to actually add to the 4 side and go this way, and I'm not so sure that, by the time 5 you added on, it wouldn't be cheaper just to do something 6 new and plop it down. So the contractor's not having to 7 worry about connections, that kind of thing. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: This oval area on the right, 9 is that covered, or is that -- 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's open. If -- all the 11 warm-up arenas were open to the air, so they were 12 inexpensive, and they could also be used by a small, one-day 13 type daytime show situation. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: The barn that we deleted, was 15 that a pole barn or was that a full-sided barn? 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I had costed those in as a 17 free-span so they could be utilized. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: With just a roof and poles? 19 Or did it have -- 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's a clear span. 21 MS. BURDITT: But it had sides, didn't it, 22 Bill? 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It had sides, yes. 24 Everything in there had sides, and ventilation. I set up 25 some ventilation on there to suck the air in. 48 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the cost of that 2 pole barn? 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, the purple. 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: 458. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $158,000? 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: 458. 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Leave all the rest of 9 it, build us two of those. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You will lose a little bit 11 in scale here. It's kind of hard to relate to this, 'cause 12 it's about 1-to-50. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How many stalls for that 14 whole -- 15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: There's 200. And that also 16 allows -- you got to have restrooms and stuff in there. 17 MS. BURDITT: Bill? Could we talk a moment 18 about doing concession stands in the foyer, upper top end, 19 white line, in that existing -- 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Up here? 21 MS. BURDITT: Yes, in this area. Part of my 22 thoughts, if you -- if you were coming in those doors and 23 going into an event in that particular facility, and you 24 also had something else going on in the arena that may be 25 only a show, I continue to have a -- one of my biggest 49 1 problems over the years with the whole facility is dirt, and 2 -- and the combination of food and dirt. If we had 3 concession stands in that front foyer that actually opened 4 and faced out to the front door, where there's less dirt, 5 when you put -- 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's pretty inconvenient to 7 somebody who's down in the lower right-hand corner of the 8 shell, second arena, to go all the way up there and go 9 outside to get a drink. 10 MS. BURDITT: I agree, but if it's facing 11 that dirt floor arena, what they -- when they go get a drink 12 there, it's liable to have dirt in it. 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Here's the idea. That's 14 the wall; there's already a wall inside there, and then 15 you've got that 50-foot space and another wall. Actually, 16 what I was thinking was we would concrete this. 17 MS. BURDITT: Okay. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: This would be your lead-in 19 to go here or turn and go this way. 20 MS. BURDITT: Okay. So it would be 21 protected. 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You have a break. 23 MS. BURDITT: Okay, I'm fine with that. I 24 just -- dirt is an issue. 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And then you could still 50 1 have your concession stands in here, since they're on 2 concrete, and you could still have trade people. 3 MS. BURDITT: Exhibit space. Exhibit space 4 for people, right. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And, you know, you can rent 6 those out for, like, $75, $110 or whatever for a 10-by-20 7 space. 8 MS. BURDITT: I pay as much as $995 for some 9 of those spaces. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Whoa. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: If we cut this barn in half, 12 make it a 100-stall barn, is that going to give us 13 sufficient capacity to attract -- to handle a show? 14 MS. BURDITT: Not on that size arena. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Plus the covered barn? 16 Assuming we could use the covered barn. 17 MS. BURDITT: Our competition pretty much has 18 300 to 350 stalls across the state of Texas, so we're not 19 competing if we can't reach that level. 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's why we ended up with 21 about 400 fixed, and then you had the availability to do 22 more. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: How many can we handle 24 right now, today? 25 MS. BURDITT: Not but 70. 51 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Seventy-five. Then 2 you start bringing in the temporary stalls. 3 MS. BURDITT: Oh, yeah, there's room to put 4 others, but there's only 75. 5 MR. LANGLEY: Seventy. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Seventy or 75. 7 MR. LANGLEY: Seventy. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Seventy. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The last figures I had for 10 number of horses and shows, there's a fair amount that are 11 between 125 to, say, 200. They're small shows. That was 12 from '97. We've put on -- since then, there are probably 13 about 20 percent more on each one of those, but those are, 14 like, two and three daytime shows. To get the longer 15 shows -- like we just had a show down here in San Antonio at 16 the old Yellow Rose Garden, which is a falling-down place; 17 you could take their business very easily. I think they had 18 over 300 horses. The problem is, when you have that many 19 horses, you can usually add about 15 percent -- 20 percent, 20 so you might have 400 stalls with only 300 horses, 'cause 21 they got tack stalls, feed stalls, grooming stalls, along 22 with all that. And that's whether they're cows, horses, or 23 whatever. This way you could get 300 horses, plus take this 24 arena, whichever arena might be there, and maybe you get a 25 larger show and you put portable stalls out here. It still 52 1 would afford you an area for somebody to work their horses 2 in two areas and then show in here. Then it would also 3 allow you, with the way this thing is configured, to almost 4 accommodate the 5-year plan for your Youth Stock Show. 5 And, the -- the thing I heard mostly was the 6 fact that they have to -- they have to stage it so that they 7 take down and put back up right now, so it causes problems. 8 This way you wouldn't have to do that. Only sometime out, 9 when they got bigger and bigger, which you would be forced 10 to do that. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What if you did 12 everything but the purple building, okay? And that's the 13 next phase that you do, so that you go sell that. You can 14 go sell that for the next phase, and that you end up then 15 with, say, three years out or whenever -- whatever the 16 phasing turns out for the financing, that you ended up with 17 the -- the purple building already sold, but have that in 18 the plan, that that was going to be sold, or -- 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Or put in somewhere 21 downstream -- just downstream, because we're talking -- I'm 22 assuming in a couple of years to get everything built out 23 that we're talking here, so maybe you do that in three years 24 or something. It might make the financing a little bit 25 easier. 53 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Might make the financing -- 2 but if I'm a horse show and I've got -- if I'm going to do 3 my Cow-Time Classic and I'm going to come down here, I'm 4 going to say, "Where are my stalls?" And, "Well, we've only 5 got 100 covered, and the rest of it's going to have to be 6 portable." "How much are you going to charge for the 7 portables?" "They're probably going to run you around $50." 8 "I'll go somewhere else." That's the problem. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I was getting back to 10 Sudie's point, that if we had it in the plan, we could sell 11 it, even though it may be a year after the rest of it. 12 That's what I'm saying. From a marketing point of view, you 13 would plan on Year 3 or 4, or whenever that falls, that you 14 could do it financially, then you could say that's when we 15 can market that. 16 MS. BURDITT: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Also, I think -- I mean, 18 I tend to -- I think we need to stay as small as we possibly 19 can at this point. And, to me, get rid of the purple 20 stalls, 'cause I don't like purple. But -- just 'cause that 21 goes with economic development. If the County commits to 22 doing the top portion right there, I can easily see that, 23 you know, through a grant -- someone could go out and get a 24 grant on their own, other economic developments. Someone 25 else could get lined up to really get this built, 54 1 realistically, at the same time or right after, but the 2 County's not -- we're not saddled with trying to do it. 3 We're doing what we have to get done to make this facility 4 usable for its current needs, which is community and youth 5 out there and agriculture. And then, you know, if -- 6 hopefully, someone will say, "Hey," you know, "great idea. 7 Let's raise money to do this." And I think it probably 8 would happen. But, I think that the bigger it gets to start 9 with, the harder it is for us to do it, to even get off -- 10 take the first step. 11 MR. LANGLEY: Let me ask you a question. 12 When he's figuring the price of this, are we figuring the 13 upper end, and not any of this covered? Or -- the arena, I 14 mean. These arena areas on the back end, are all of those 15 open arenas figured into the price that we're talking about? 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Talking about right here? 17 MR. LANGLEY: Yes. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Those are actually not -- 19 the way I did it, these are actually covered, but they're 20 open. All this back in here, though, would be open. This 21 is open. The only covered area would be here, here, around 22 like that. 23 MR. LANGLEY: Okay. But, are those open 24 areas figured into your price today? 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes. 55 1 MR. LANGLEY: We don't need those today. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We don't need what, 3 Ralph? 4 MR. LANGLEY: We don't need these open arena 5 areas in the back end today. 6 MS. BURDITT: There's a later phase. 7 MR. LANGELY: A later phase to put those in. 8 The -- the -- what we're calling the purple building, 9 basically, we could get by without it today. The last 10 cutting horse show, they had a 3-day show, they used 70 11 stalls, plus they put 50 stalls in the shed area of the 12 existing building. Now, you could use more. If you had a 13 bigger cutting show and used the new arena building that 14 we're going on, you could put stalls in the existing arena 15 building. So, as far as dollar-wise, we need the new 16 exhibit building and we need the new arena building to clean 17 up what we've got. That's Phase I, to me. Then any of the 18 rest of these pens, these -- these working areas -- I put on 19 cutting horse shows out there, y'all know that, for several 20 years. And, for warm up, they've got a warm-up area at the 21 end of the arena in the existing building. They use that 22 for warm-up. Occasionally I might see five or six people 23 loping their horses out in the grass area. But, for Phase 24 I, the upper end of this thing, the exhibit, the new arena 25 building is basically Phase I. The rest of this stuff in 56 1 the back can come later. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hey, Ralph, the day 3 that you had me out there looking at all that -- 4 MR. LANGELY: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- and they had 6 brought in some new stalls. 7 MR. LANGELY: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, those -- the 9 horse people, they went and rented those themselves, didn't 10 they? 11 MR. LANGELY: The horse people -- the cutting 12 association that was putting on the show put those in, yeah. 13 And they got the -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The County didn't run 15 to San Antonio and rent a bunch of stalls. 16 MR. LANGELY: No. No. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, they rented them 18 themselves and brought them. 19 MR. LANGELY: They rented them themselves and 20 put them in there, and they did collect the revenue off of 21 those stalls. Yeah, that's right. But they were in what 22 you'd call the -- what I'd call the shed of the existing 23 building. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Shed. 25 MR. LANGELY: But all of this bottom end can 57 1 be another phase. 2 (Discussion off the record.) 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that -- 4 MR. LANGELY: Except the only thing you -- 5 you're just not saving much money. For what -- what the 6 difference is, is what he said, was that the cutting horse 7 people had the stalls and made money. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not -- we're not 9 saying we're not going to do it. We're saying we don't want 10 to present that right now, because everything up there is 11 something to throw a dart at, and the harder it is for us to 12 get people behind it, the harder -- I mean, if we only say 13 we're building an exhibit hall and arena and that will meet 14 the needs of the stock show and the community needs, that's 15 good. We can come in out of budget one year and build an 16 arena if we need to. We can get the -- what do you call 17 those people out at the jail -- trustees. Get the trustees 18 to go out there and weld the -- you know, those pens. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 MS. BURDITT: Jonathan, to add to one thing 21 that Ralph said -- and we've just discussed it here, but I 22 think we need to say it out loud. The warm-up arenas match 23 the horse stalls. Ralph's right. For right now, all of 24 that we can do without. But, as we add a horse stall 25 building, we've got to add warm-up arenas to match them. 58 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree, Phase II can be 3 all -- I'm just worried about Phase I. 4 MS. BURDITT: We can't come along and say we 5 need 450 horse stalls and not have a warm-up. They match; 6 they've got to go together. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think what Ralph's 8 saying, too, which makes a lot sense, is you can do the top 9 portion, the two buildings, parking, lighting, sanitary 10 facilities; that's Phase I. 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mm-hmm. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Now, Phase II may 13 fall -- come right behind it. I mean, close behind it. 14 And -- and as you address capacity, you have to have the 15 support areas to -- to do that. 16 MR. LANGELY: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think everybody 18 would sign up to that, too. And Jonathan's point, I totally 19 agree with, because if we stay within our charter, to get 20 this thing off the ground and get going, I think we can sell 21 the program to everybody. I don't think we'll have a 22 problem with it. And -- and this makes it an easy cut, to 23 say this is where we're going to start. We're going to make 24 this part of it right, and next phase is -- is that we add 25 capacity with the necessary support. 59 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And Phase III would 2 probably be a second arena, which could be sometime down the 3 road, with a barn. 4 MS. BURDITT: Or maybe even -- or maybe even 5 heat. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or heat. Or that Phase 7 IV is, you know. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Climate control. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's a way to do it, to 10 have it all drawn up and basically utilize the full plan 11 that Bill put together originally, but just have it -- we 12 just got to get started, to my mind. 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Sudie, do you think that if 14 you got this, that if someone was to take it and then start 15 soliciting, that by showing them that you're doing this, 16 breaking ground and starting that, maybe by the time that it 17 was finished, or to a point that it was close to finished, 18 which would be 12 months or 14 months, that you would maybe 19 have a show or two that would actually utilize that? So 20 then it falls right in with what you're saying, is that, you 21 know, okay, "Yeah, that's no problem; we can address it." 22 So, instead of having a "build it and then come" kind of 23 situation, they'll come and then you'll build it. 24 MS. BURDITT: I'd start the marketing the day 25 did first shovel of dirt is turned. And, actually, I have 60 1 already put out -- some of these copies have gone out to 2 groups that we can't handle, but in order to be a teaser to 3 them to say we hope that in the future we can. That's 4 already happened. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Most of these shows, like 6 the club that I'm -- that we're associated with, my wife and 7 I, it's going to take them a year or two to react. You 8 can't just all of a sudden say, "Okay, we know we don't want 9 to go to the Rose Garden any more. Next year we're going to 10 switch. It will take them a while to say that, and then get 11 it done through their people. So, you're probably a year or 12 two -- 13 MS. BURDITT: Well, and lots of them already 14 have their second year contracts, so you're 24 months to 36 15 months, just because so many times, when they sign a 16 contract and they're happy someplace and they sign a 17 contract in these bigger facilities, they'll sign two-year 18 contracts. We have convention groups do that; they book 19 particular dates and a particular space for three years, 20 with just a percentage increase in price each year. Now, 21 we're going to book for 2001, we'll book for 2003 with a 22 2 percent price increase. We'll book 2003 with a 3 percent 23 price increase. 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. They won't want 25 lock-in. 61 1 MS. BURDITT: We're doing that now all the 2 time, and that's how working with this facility would be. 3 But you're -- but they already have their dates, they 4 already have their place, they already have the contracts, 5 so you're really looking at a 24-month time frame on most of 6 them. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me see if I 8 understand. See if we're getting near being on -- on the 9 right -- on a page. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'll stop doing stuff. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That a 12 workable -- a workable Phase I might be a new exhibit hall 13 replacing the existing one. All right? Keeping the 14 existing arena and doing some minimal upgrading and 15 whatever, concessions and whatever. And then -- then 16 building this, but perhaps holding back climate control and 17 eliminating all these other things in Phase I. Is that what 18 we're saying? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And include the paving 21 and lighting. 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: In the front. You'd be 23 doing the front area, the draw, so-to-speak. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. So that you 25 have a good looking facility from the outside, porte-cochere 62 1 and new entrance on it. So -- go ahead. 2 MR. LANGELY: Climate control, I think you 3 need to get a figure on that to begin with. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We need to get a 5 figure on all this. 6 MR. LANGELY: What I'm saying is, if you 7 don't put climate control in that big building, it's going 8 to be hotter than Hades in the summertime, because you're 9 blocking off the air going through the building, so you'd 10 better put that figure in to start with. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's an excellent 12 point. I happen to agree with you. But -- 13 MR. LANGELY: Because you're not going to get 14 a lot of -- of cattle shows, horse shows, or anything else 15 in that facility in the summertime without having climate 16 control in the new building. I mean, we've had problems 17 with air in the existing building in the summertime. So, I 18 mean, I think in the proposal you can do it. I think Bill 19 can easily do that as an alternate, to add that. 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And if it comes in good, 21 you do it. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: An option is nothing 23 but the air handlers and ducting all in, and then with 24 the -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One other point that 63 1 we may have overlooked in our thinking is that if we do away 2 with all this, we're not totally out of business, because 3 you still have the old outdoor arena here. And if it needs 4 a little rehabbing to make it better -- 5 MR. LANGELY: For warm-up. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: More work for our 7 trustees in the Sheriff's Department. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So we still have an 9 outdoor arena. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's a dangerous facility. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Williams, 12 I need to make a comment, and I have to go. We were talking 13 about funding and community involvement and partnerships and 14 all those kinds of things. It has -- continually drives me 15 nuts, to put it just mildly; out of the five guys that sit 16 up at this table, four of us live in the county. 17 City/county population is basically equal. We all go down 18 to H.E.B. and buy our groceries and Penney's and buy our 19 clothes, et cetera. Therefore, the E.I.C. money is just as 20 much the County's money as it is the City's money. And I -- 21 I find it -- it is bordering -- in my mind, it's bordering 22 on absolutely ridiculous that they're spending -- or they 23 have set aside $400,000 to transfer that park, the state 24 park, into the city system, which does absolutely nothing, 25 changes nothing; it doesn't create any kind of a brand-new 64 1 economic development for our community, whereas if they 2 would participate in this project, it would do many, many 3 things. That's my basic speech. I've given it three times 4 in this room this week. 5 (Applause.) 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can give it Tuesday 7 at City Council if you want. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't leave before I 9 respond. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. He's going to 11 agree. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do agree with what 13 you just said. I just want to correct one thing. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two of us live in the 16 city and three of us live outside. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who lives in the city? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a city where 19 he lives. Well, we can correct that. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank y'all very much. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Buster, 22 for being part of it. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's it. I 24 think we have a direction to get with Bill and come up with 25 a new price. 65 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We'll have to have 2 that kind of phasing. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: With that kind of 4 phasing. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I think we need to have, 6 you know, all that down at the bottom as Phase II, and then 7 Phase III, which would either be -- or actually Phase II 8 would either be air-conditioning -- if it isn't done 9 initially, that would be Phase III, and then Phase IV would 10 be the other portion, the second arena and the other barns, 11 which would be this -- just as a future thing. And it may 12 be five, ten years from now, but all we need the dollars 13 for, I think, are really Phase I and Phase II, if it's HVAC. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Anybody else need or 15 want to put anything into the discussion? Glenn, you've 16 been awfully quiet. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, I haven't been here. I 18 was putting out a fire. 19 (Laughter.) 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: I have a question. And I 21 think Ralph hit on it. And I -- I think I'll ask Bill this 22 question, is how useful will that building be to the one to 23 my right if there is no climate control? I mean -- 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, what we did down at 25 Glen Rose, we put the air handler in, just the air handler, 66 1 not the coils, so we had air movement. 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: How does that work? I mean, 3 in this heat? 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, it helped a lot down 5 there. The -- the insulation that normally goes in in a 6 metal building is really just nothing except to keep it from 7 getting condensation. What we'd done is we came in there 8 and put the insulation plus a foil barrier that kept the 9 heat out, and there was a 10- or 15-degree difference coming 10 in and out of that area then, plus when you started to move 11 the air around, it was better. Now, it wasn't -- I mean, it 12 got hot, but it was bearable. And so the only problem with 13 that is -- is that they left it out at 250 and they added it 14 back in at another 100-and-something thousand two years 15 later. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But they had 17 demonstrated marketing at that point. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: They demonstrated 19 marketing. 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: I was just curious as to how 21 much it would drop that temperature in there. That was 22 my -- 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I also did it in just 24 their little ag facility, where they kept the 4-H guys. Low 25 wall, we put that in there and you can -- it's open air. 67 1 You can walk in there, and it's just like, golly, 10 degrees 2 cooler just walking back and forth. Makes a lot of 3 difference, the insulation. 4 MR. LANGELY: This is something that may need 5 to be figured into the existing arena building out there 6 now. At least -- 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's in there. I figured 8 it in my cost. Okay? 9 MR. LANGELY: Yeah. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I've been in there, so I 11 know. 12 MR. LANGELY: I have too. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Anybody else need or 14 want to say something? Sudie? 15 MS. BURDITT: In the process of the whole 16 reworking -- of Bill reworking this, I'd like to brainstorm 17 with Bill and -- and think of it and look at my list of what 18 we could do without the purple building, what would be 19 eliminated by not having the purple building. So many of 20 the things that the shell of the arena could still be used 21 for, like dog shows, and there's some big ones that could 22 come to the Hill Country if we had the space. They don't 23 have to have the purple building. Some of the things could 24 overflow to the existing exhibit hall, with portable stalls 25 or portable panels to -- to do cattle with. But I want to 68 1 look at that, if Bill and I can get together. It would be 2 horrible for us to end up doing the shell of the facility, 3 but because we have one missing component, we can't book the 4 business. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. 6 MS. BURDITT: And I need to study that. I -- 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That would be -- that's my 8 fear. 9 MS. BURDITT: I want to make everybody aware 10 that -- that there could be some things we would be 11 eliminating. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Good comment. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there probably 16 are. 17 MS. BURDITT: Oh, and I know there are. I 18 just -- I just want to see if there's enough that it 19 wouldn't inhibit us having some business come in. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, Bill may put in -- 21 he may put that building -- not the staging area, 22 necessarily, but the -- as an alternate also. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: See, we could actually 24 cover the back without too much expense. It's going to run 25 you -- all you'd be really putting in back there would be 69 1 the roof. And, with that in mind, the areas that are, like, 2 right through here that could be used for stalls, and it 3 would be covered right now. So, between these two, you 4 could probably get a couple hundred stalls, and then maybe 5 what you do is you go and you get the portable stalls and 6 then the County owns them, and then whoever, the cattle 7 people or whoever, would come in and rent those from you, so 8 they're paying you the revenue. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And then you can do that 11 right outside. They make those things that just set up out 12 here; we do them all the time. We don't like to, but we do. 13 You know, it's there, so you can use it. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Anybody else? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's been very 17 useful. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it's been a 19 great exercise. Thank you for participating. If you got a 20 minute, maybe you and Bill can go get a sandwich and talk 21 about it. Thank you, Bill. I really appreciate your 22 coming. Thank you, everybody. 23 (Workshop adjourned at 12:13 p.m.) 24 - - - - - - - - - - 25 70 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 20th day of August, 8 2001. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25