1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Tuesday, October 9, 2001 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X October 9, 2001 2 PAGE 3 2.1 Accept Letter of Credit for construction of roads in Falling Water, Precinct 3 13 4 2.2 Preliminary revision of plat for Lots 15 & 16, Whiskey Ridge Ranches, Precinct 3 14 5 2.3 Release Letter of Credit NTS368031 for final plat of Village West Industrial Park 19 6 2.4 Preliminary plat, Cutoff Business Park, & request for variance for drainage structure 7 and lot size 20 2.7 Approve name changes for privately maintained 8 roads in Precincts 2 & 4 36 2.9 Approve County Clerk acquiring cell phone and 9 service with local compnay 37 2.10 Supporting printing costs for WET Water 10 Conservation Brochure 41 2.15 Adoption of Resolution authorizing signators to 11 TCDP Contract # 721075 44 2.16 Nomination of Paula Rector for Kerr Central 12 Appraisal District Board of Directors 45 2.17 Approval of contract with Office of Court 13 Administration 46 2.5 PUBLIC HEARING for road name changes in various 14 locations in accordance with 911 guidelines 47 2.6 Approve road name changes above 58 15 2.8 Present commendation from Hill Country Chapter, National Society of the Sons of the American 16 Revolution, for patriotic display of flag 62 2.11 Adoption of amendment to order redrawing 17 precinct boundaries 64 2.12 Order adopting changes to election precincts 18 as a result of changes in Commissioner precincts 65 2.13 Approval of First Amendment to UGRA OSSF contract 75 19 2.14 Approval of interlocal agreement with UGRA for Kerrville South Wastewater project 78 20 2.18 Request from Jerry Swafford for declaration of local agricultural emergency 82 21 2.19 Approval of joint resolution supporting TexDOT Aviation capital improvement funding for airport 83 22 improvements at municipal airport 2.20 Approval of airport T-hangar fee schedule 85 23 2.21 Revised plans, cost estimates, and bonding timelines for proposed building project at Hill 24 Country Youth Exhibition Center 90 25 --- Adjourned 136 3 1 On Tuesday, October 9, 2001, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good morning, everyone. It's 8 9 o'clock in the morning on Tuesday, October 9th, Year 2001. 9 We'll call to order this regular meeting of the Kerr County 10 Commissioners Court. Commissioner Griffin, I believe you're 11 up this morning. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. Let me 13 introduce -- reintroduce my good friend, Pastor John Green, 14 from the Hunt United Methodist Church. He will offer the 15 invocation, followed by the pledge of allegiance, which I'll 16 lead. 17 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Pastor Green. At 20 this time, any citizen wishing to address the Court on an 21 item not listed on the regular agenda may come forward and 22 do so. Is there any citizen who wishes to address the Court 23 on an item not listed on the regular agenda? Seeing none, 24 we'll turn to the Commissioners' comments. Commissioner 25 Griffin? 4 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No comments this 2 morning. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Baldwin? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tivy High School 5 football had a rough time Friday night. It was only 52 to 6 nothing. But, it was a -- it was a lot of fun. This week 7 we travel to Comal County, to New Braunfels Canyon, which 8 opens our district play, so it's time to -- then the 9 following week, we're at home again against one of our 10 rivals, the Boerne Greyhounds. So, that would be a good 11 time -- if anybody wants to see some good, Texas Hill 12 Country football, which there is none better, it would be a 13 good time to come. That's the only thing I know, basically. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Fair enough. Commissioner 15 Williams? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No comments. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Letz? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a couple of 19 things. First, regarding the comment that Commissioner 20 Baldwin made a few minutes ago about an accident in Center 21 Point, I'd like to commend First Responders. The program 22 was operated at the absolute best. There was two Responders 23 that responded to -- it was a pedestrian accident in Center 24 Point -- within five minutes. I happened to be there, as 25 was Jannett in the area at the time, and very impressed at 5 1 the quick response. And I also commend the Kerrville Fire 2 Department for having an ambulance there as fast as you 3 could drive from Kerrville to Center Point. 4 Two other items I have, just really -- I 5 bring them up because I don't know enough about them, and I 6 really don't know how we -- what we ought to do, so it's 7 kind of food for thought for the rest of the Court, is some 8 sort of an update may be a good idea on the bankruptcy at 9 Mooney and how it affects the County/City leases and what -- 10 I mean how it affects the county, actually. I mean, people 11 ask me and I just don't know anything about that, as to what 12 the legal ramifications are of that whole thing, and the -- 13 if a new buyer buys it, does the County have anything to do 14 with that whole transaction because of the situation with 15 those leases? And the other thing, something I get asked 16 about a fair amount, is the industrial park out by the 17 airport, about the location. It's going to be in Precinct 18 2, but I haven't seen anything about a concept plan, or that 19 I am aware of. I don't know if Commissioner Williams has 20 talked with Franklin about that, but it's County property. 21 I would presume it's going to have some sort of plat. But, 22 anyway, I get a lot of questions about that, and I don't 23 know that much about it. I don't know if KEDF is pushing it 24 or the City or just private development. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Some of all of the 6 1 above. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: The reason it hasn't come -- 3 the reason the industrial park hasn't come to the County and 4 the Court is because the property has been annexed by the 5 City, or will be annexed as part of the development process, 6 so it will be within the city limits. That's the reason why 7 that hasn't come to -- I'm sure Dick Colvin and Sherry will 8 be happy to come -- I'll extend an invitation for them. As 9 far as the Mooney bankruptcy, I can respond to that quickly. 10 We are a creditor in the bankruptcy because there are two 11 unpaid items; one, taxes, and second, lease payment. Since 12 we're a co-owner of the airport, it comes to us. As far as 13 the leases are concerned, under the Bankruptcy Code, the 14 debtor in possession has a certain period of time within 15 which to accept or reject those leases. One lease on the 16 empty -- on an empty hangar, they're going to reject, so 17 they will no longer be obligated beyond the rejection period 18 for that lease. The other, they've extended the time period 19 to accept or reject the leases. If someone buys Mooney, 20 then they will buy those leases as well. If they want to 21 adjust the leases in any way, they'll have to come to the 22 City and the County jointly as landowners in order to 23 negotiate any modifications to those leases. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the -- I guess the 25 term of the lease isn't affected at all by the bankruptcy. 7 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. No, the term of the 2 lease stays the same, or the term -- none of the terms are 3 affected. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: None of the terms are 5 affected. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Probably a good six months 7 before we know anything. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And, as part of a buy, 10 one of the things that could be on the table -- you know, 11 it's negotiable -- is to redo those leases with a new owner. 12 That's always possible, but that would require City/County 13 concurrence, of course. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I -- what brought 15 it up in my mind was the article, I believe in Kerrville 16 Daily Times, that the -- someone was quoted as saying the 17 biggest asset Mooney has is the leases. Which, you know, I 18 don't know if it's -- maybe -- I think actually it was a 19 Mooney representative said it -- someone said it. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A lot of equipment 21 leases, too. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. But they they felt 23 that the property -- or the -- I mean, the leases on the 24 property had value, but we own part of that. People ask me 25 and I don't know that much about it. 8 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One other footnote on 2 the industrial park. I read recently E.I.C. is going to 3 fund the extension of the utilities. The City has a 4 longstanding policy, they don't extend utilities unless it's 5 annexed property. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe you or I can get 7 Dick or Sherry to explain it. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. They're getting 9 excited about the fact that it's finally almost done after 10 two years working on it. Anything else? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. That's all I have. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: I want to say that I 13 thoroughly enjoyed the picture that went in the paper 14 recently of our esteemed colleague, Commissioner Baldwin, 15 and his son, and the other father/son combinations from this 16 year's Antler football. I thought that was really neat, 17 there were so many -- five or six? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Five, I think. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- kids playing on the team 20 whose fathers played on the team in the not too distant 21 past. I think that's kind of a nice thing. That's part of 22 the reason we live in small town U.S.A. in Texas, is those 23 things happen. So, I thought that was certainly a 24 worthwhile endeavor, and I enjoyed seeing the picture, and I 25 just wondered how many sprints you'd run that day, Buster. 9 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, a few. I had a 2 hard time getting that jersey on, I tell you that. I really 3 had a hard time getting it off. 4 (Laughter.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Without any further 6 ado, let's move into the business at hand. Do we have any 7 bills to pay, Tommy? Anyone have any questions or comments 8 about the bills as presented? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: I will remind you that -- 10 that the -- on the funds requirement report, where there's 11 an "ENC" on the line item, that means that that's encumbered 12 back to the 2000/2001 budget. I think probably 90 percent 13 of these bills are -- are from last year. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: I had a question on Page 14, 15 Tommy. The payments to Leo Jenschke Construction for 16 $26,650, road work on Bear Creek Scout Camp Road. I presume 17 that's the county road that leads up to the scout camp, not 18 the actual road into the scout camp? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. Bear -- Bear 20 Creek Scout Camp Road goes from 1340 all the way up into the 21 top of that subdivision. It goes by the scout camp. It 22 just takes the name. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Does anyone else have 24 any questions or comments? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move we pay the 10 1 bills. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 4 Williams, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 5 approve payment of the bills as presented and recommended by 6 the Auditor. Any further questions or comments? If not, 7 all in favor, raise your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. We have one 12 budget amendment to come before us today from the Law 13 Library. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. It's for $155.58. It's 15 for books, and it's -- it's going to require an increase in 16 last year's budget by that amount. So, it's to come from 17 Surplus Funds. It will -- will require an emergency, 18 declare an emergency for this. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 22 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court declare 23 an emergency and authorize transfer of $155.58 from Fund 18, 24 Surplus Reserves, to pay for books for the Law Library, such 25 funds relating to the prior fiscal year. Any further 11 1 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 2 right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Any further 7 late bills or amendments, Tommy? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: I have a -- a bill that I 9 need a hand check for, and it's -- in the Animal Control 10 budget, we budgeted the purchase of some kennels, and the 11 manufacturer has requested a 25 percent down payment on 12 those. That is for $1,600 payable to Shor-Line, which is 13 the company that we're buying those from. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 17 Williams, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 18 authorize a late bill and hand check in the amount of $1,600 19 payable to Shor-Line for kennels at the Animal Control 20 Shelter. Any further questions or comments? If not, all in 21 favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 12 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Thank you. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Tommy. At this 3 time, I would entertain a motion to waive reading and 4 approve the minutes of the September 5, September 10, 5 September 17, and September 24 meetings of the Kerr County 6 Commissioners Court. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 10 second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court waive reading 11 and approve the minutes of the September 5, September 10, 12 September 17, and September 24 meetings of the Kerr County 13 Commissioners Court. Any questions or comments? If not, 14 all in favor, raise your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. At this time 19 I would also entertain a motion to approve and accept the 20 monthly reports as presented. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 24 Griffin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court approve 25 and accept the monthly reports as presented. Any further 13 1 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 2 right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay. Let's 7 go into the consideration agenda. First item is Item Number 8 1, consider and accept a Letter of Credit for construction 9 of roads at Falling Water, Precinct 3. Jonathan? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Franklin? 11 MR. JOHNSTON: That -- the old Letter of 12 Credit expires tomorrow, I think, and they cleaned up the 13 language on this one from "maintenance" to "construction." 14 Apparently, the bank's going to issue it for a year. I 15 guess we have to do them a year at a time till the job's 16 finished. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we accept. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 20 second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court accept the 21 replacement Letter of Credit for construction of roads in 22 Falling Water Subdivision, Precinct 3. Any further 23 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 24 right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item is 4 Item Number 2, consider for approval the preliminary 5 revision of plat for Lots 15 and 16 of Whiskey Ridge Ranches 6 in Precinct 3. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Franklin? Pretty easy 8 one. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah. This is a combination 10 of two lots, and one lot's 45 acres and one's 97 acres, 11 making a total of a 142.3-acre lot. And, since it's 12 combining, it doesn't need to have the notification, public 13 hearing and all that, so it's just -- we need the 14 preliminary and final. On that size of lot, I think 15 everything looks fine. There's no new roads or anything. 16 It's just taking that -- taking out a lot line. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have one citizen who has 18 asked to address us on this matter, Mr. Kenneth Swanson. 19 Mr. Swanson, if you'd come forward and do so at this time? 20 Thank you. 21 MR. SWANSON: Yes. Good morning, gentlemen. 22 I'd like to comment on the procedure I've been going through 23 to -- to eliminate this 24-inch line on a piece of mylar. I 24 recently retired July 1st, after 36 years in the private 25 sector, and one of the things that was hammered into me when 15 1 I was a young engineer, and -- and at the end of my career, 2 I was hammering into my engineers, is that whenever you do 3 something, if it's expending manpower, if it's expending 4 capital, always ask yourself, what is the value added for 5 your action? In 1997, as you can see on this first piece of 6 property, we eliminated another line on the 95-acre piece, 7 and it was quite simple. It was called a minor replat. 8 There was a few fees involved and a few signatures I had to 9 get. This time, that procedure has been eliminated for some 10 reason, and I have to go through this twice. I have to go 11 around and get signatures from people to review it, and then 12 come back again and get final signatures, and the fees have 13 gone up considerably. And, not only the fees. A couple 14 places I have to pay it twice, once for the preliminary and 15 once again for the final. Being retired, I'm -- I'm 16 concerned about spending my money, and I -- I'd just like to 17 make a comment that I don't really see the value added for 18 all these extra steps I'm having to take for this exercise. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Swanson, if I can 20 respond a little bit -- and I agree with you totally. The 21 problem is, we looked at the state law very closely when we 22 redid our Subdivision Rules. The last time you did the 23 revision, while it was easy, it was also illegal from the 24 standpoint it didn't follow state law. It was in our rules, 25 and that's the way it was done. The current way it is done 16 1 is state law. We don't have a choice, actually, and you 2 should -- we should have done it the previous time as well. 3 The law hasn't changed in this particular instance very 4 much. I agree, it is cumbersome, you know, but we don't 5 have any latitude in that area. On the fee issue, I think 6 you have a good point. I think that on this -- you know, we 7 need to possibly look at the fee structure for minor -- what 8 we used to call minor replats, because they are -- and it 9 shouldn't take the -- you know, I guess some of the time is 10 still involved, but it's pretty simple when you're basically 11 doing something that the County philosophically encourages, 12 which is larger lot sizes. So, I, you know, agree with 13 that, but on the first point, our hands are tied by state 14 law. 15 MR. SWANSON: It almost seems to me I should 16 be subsidized, because I'm saving the County money. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I -- I don't know 18 if I'd go that far. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Nice try. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I agree -- 21 MR. SWANSON: It is a real irritation to have 22 to pay the same fee twice to the same entity. And -- and 23 the amount of the fees, I'm saying, jeez -- you know, we've 24 owned our house in Crestwood, which we've been there for 25 five years, and our house taxes have gone up the maximum 17 1 amount every year, and I'm saying, "Jeez, I'm paying taxes. 2 I'm paying fees. What's the value added for this?" I mean, 3 I feel like Don Quixote; I just want to vent, but I do think 4 that -- that our public sector personnel should -- should 5 adopt a little bit of what the private sector does in 6 saying, what's the value added for what I'm doing? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, like I said, I 8 agree. It's just that we don't have a whole lot of latitude 9 on the procedure part of it. On the fee structure, we 10 certainly do. I think you have a very valid point that -- I 11 mean, we have not in the past differentiated our fee 12 structure between the size of the development. The concept 13 is that the developer should pay, you know, for a lot of the 14 -- of the costs of developing. This is a situation, I mean, 15 obviously, where this is a lot different than a large 16 subdivision plat, and the fee structure doesn't vary. 17 MR. SWANSON: What's the opposite of a 18 subdivision? That's what I'm doing. I'm a reverse 19 subdivision. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're revising a 21 subdivision. 22 MR. SWANSON: I don't want to take up your 23 time; I know it's valuable, but if this is a state 24 requirement, what do we do to try to get the State to maybe 25 look at saying, what's the value added for making minor 18 1 replats into a big deal now? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, as I say, the -- 3 nothing changes; it's just that we weren't following the 4 state law previously. The procedure would be to go through 5 the -- either our State Senator or State Representative. 6 That would be the easiest way, and -- or both. And I think 7 that the -- certainly, our State Representative I know very 8 well. He would probably, you know -- or may be agreeable to 9 this. I mean, it's something that, to me, would benefit the 10 public, and Harvey's usually very, you know, interested in 11 doing these types of things. 12 MR. SWANSON: I think I'll pursue it. It 13 won't help me, but maybe it will help the next poor guy. Or 14 maybe if I buy the next lot, maybe in five years -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll be glad to get with 16 you also and give you part of the state law so you can show 17 what needs to be changed. 18 MR. SWANSON: Okay. Thank you. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Mr. Swanson. At 20 this time, we need a motion for approval of the preliminary 21 revision of plat. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 25 second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court grant the 19 1 preliminary approval for the preliminary revision of plat 2 for Lots 15 and 16 of Whiskey Ridge Ranches in Precinct 3. 3 Any further questions or comments? If not, all in favor, 4 raise your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 9 3, consider releasing Letter of Credit Number NTS368031 for 10 the final plat of Village West Industrial Park. Franklin? 11 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah. This -- I think this 12 subdivision was approved pending them building a cul-de-sac 13 at the end of one of the roads and improving the drainage 14 through the system, and they have rebuilt the ditch and have 15 built a cul-de-sac. I checked them last week. So, the 16 project's complete, so we need to release the Letter of 17 Credit. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 21 Griffin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 22 authorize release of Letter of Credit Number NTS368031 for 23 the final plat of Village West Industrial Park. Any further 24 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 25 right hand. 20 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 5 4, consider the preliminary plat of Cutoff Business Park and 6 the request for a variance of -- for drainage structure and 7 lot size in Precinct 4. Before we start the discussion on 8 this, I received this morning and had copied for each of the 9 Commissioners -- it should be in your box -- correspondence 10 from the Headwaters Underground Water Conservation District 11 regarding this issue. So, Larry? 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. Franklin, you 13 probably need to go through this. We'll discuss, obviously, 14 this correspondence from Headwaters. It appears that there 15 are several issues that need to be resolved prior to 16 approval of a -- even the preliminary plat. Is that where 17 we are? 18 MR. JOHNSTON: Is that a new letter, or is 19 that the one that was in our packet? 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, this was the one 21 we got this morning. It's just -- it's Headwaters 22 recommending not approving the preliminary until they have a 23 response from Aquasource that they have the water capability 24 to supply this -- this proposed subdivision. 25 MR. JOHNSTON: The -- Aquasource apparently 21 1 sent them a letter, but I think our rules say that 2 T.N.R.C.C. has to send us a letter saying they have enough 3 connections. We -- I haven't seen that. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Whether they have 5 sufficient groundwater rights is the issue, and I just -- 6 like the Judge said, we just got this this morning, but I 7 think there are some other issues as well on drainage and 8 all. But, how about hitting those one at a time, and -- 9 MR. JOHNSTON: Okay, we can go through that. 10 The -- the developers had Vordenbaum Engineering do a 11 drainage plan on this site. However, the plan doesn't seem 12 to follow along with our Subdivision Rules. Our rules call 13 for a reduced flow from the input to the output as a result 14 of construction by a percentage 50 to 80 percent, and this 15 one increases the flow about four-fold going through the 16 site. Apparently, it speeds it up as it's going through, 17 the problem being that it could affect development down -- 18 between that and the river by increasing the flow four 19 times. That's Section, I think, 506(b) of our Subdivision 20 Rules. That's one issue. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What would it take -- 22 is there anything in the study that shows what it would take 23 to fix that? That would indicate what it would take? 24 MR. JOHNSTON: I think some kind of retainage 25 system is what it would take, and they -- they apparently 22 1 didn't think that was necessary. It has Nichols Creek, plus 2 it has drainage from around the entire perimeter almost of 3 the subdivision draining into that, so it kind of 4 concentrates all the flow when it leaves the site. That's 5 probably why it increases so much. You have a little 6 drawing that shows that what they're proposing to do is put 7 a big channel around the bottom end of the site, divert all 8 the water across the highway. And one thing, also, on their 9 plat, they're showing a -- a FEMA map -- a floodplain map, 10 1979 issue, where there's a 2000 issue available. 11 Apparently, there's a -- I haven't heard back from U.G.R.A. 12 on this. I guess they -- they hadn't -- they were supposed 13 to review it, but I haven't got a letter from them on that. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Franklin, on the issue of 15 the increase in the runoff -- in the runoff four-fold, 16 that's not increasing the -- the creek increasing off this 17 property, correct? I mean, certainly, this little tract 18 can't increase the flow in Nichols Creek four-fold. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: It's increasing the cubic feet 20 per second of velocity. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Of the entire creek? 22 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, through -- from where it 23 enters the subdivision to where it exits, you know, taking 24 the water that enters and speeds it -- I guess they're 25 cleaning out, so it speeds it on through. So, that would 23 1 have an effect downstream. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So it's a velocity 3 issue. 4 MR. JOHNSTON: There's a little chart in 5 there on the right-hand side. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it doesn't 7 increase the -- 8 MR. JOHNSTON: No, it doesn't increase the -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the volume. 10 MR. JOHNSTON: -- amount of water. Just 11 increases the speed that it's going through there. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It seems -- I mean, they 13 may be going to an extreme point, but in other areas, I know 14 that FEMA, or U.G.R.A. through FEMA, has encouraged cleaning 15 creek bottoms, river bottoms where there's a whole bunch of 16 trees, to get the water to flow through, as opposed to being 17 all backed up and stopped up. I mean, what is the -- like, 18 I know along Third Creek, they were very happy when Little 19 League went in and cleaned Third Creek on the whole section 20 where it was causing a huge backup of water, 'cause all of 21 that debris and drift piles that were built up along that 22 creek, they literally went in there and cleaned it out, and 23 FEMA was -- approved it, and glad we did it. And there were 24 some issues on siltation and stuff until it got, you know, 25 taken care of. But, I mean, I guess at what point does the 24 1 velocity -- do you want to increase it some to get the water 2 to flow through it, versus getting it too fast so that 3 you're causing damage downstream? Or do you -- I mean -- 4 MR. JOHNSTON: I'm sure there's something on 5 that, but I know in our rules, we have it where they need to 6 slow it down, actually, so it doesn't -- I think we've had 7 subdivisions where's they're cascading. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: The one built on the upper end 10 actually affects flooding on the ones downstream, just by -- 11 by developing, basically. It concentrates the water. I 12 think that's what this is doing. We haven't done an entire 13 study to see if that's a problem downstream, but that's not 14 part of the normal -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 16 MR. JOHNSTON: -- routine on this. But -- do 17 a region study. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It just -- I'm looking -- 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Isn't -- do the 20 Subdivision Rules address the velocity-flow percentages? Or 21 the velocity -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Velocity. But, I mean, 23 you know, the other -- I'm looking at this, and what they're 24 designing may not be very -- to me, very aesthetically 25 pleasing; I may not like it from that standpoint. This is 25 1 exactly what cities do. I mean, you know, city -- I mean, 2 you go in a city, they concrete these creeks to get the 3 water, and obviously you're increasing the velocity, but 4 that's what they're doing. And, I mean, I'm -- I don't know 5 enough about FEMA and velocity issues as to if there is -- I 6 know our Subdivision Rules say this is not good, but I see 7 it being done a lot, and maybe our Subdivision Rules need to 8 be tweaked in this area, and I don't know. That's -- I see 9 Jim Brown is saying no. We don't want to increase velocity? 10 MR. BROWN: No, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you explain it, Jim? 12 Can you help me? 13 MR. BROWN: Well -- Jim Brown. For the 14 record, Jim Brown, Upper Guadalupe River Authority. And, 15 I'm wearing two hats. One is a 21-year veteran as a city 16 manager, and also U.G.R.A. What we're trying to do now with 17 the reduction of velocity as it flows off of improved land 18 is two things. One is to keep that -- that increase in the 19 velocity from creating a flooding event and an erosion event 20 downstream from where it enters the current stream. Yet we 21 do channel -- you see channelization in those streams, but 22 that's only after there's been an extensive HEC1 or HEC2 23 model done by the governmental entity, and we've not done 24 any of that in Kerr County. That's extremely expensive. 25 So, we can talk about it, but I'm not sure we want to do 26 1 that out of our unincorporated Kerr County Subdivision Rules 2 at this time. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Franklin, did you 4 indicate that there was a way to look at this to see if 5 there is really an effect downstream? You said we haven't 6 done that? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: I think if they extend the 8 study downstream and see what the potential is for 9 development and see what -- what's going on down there. 10 They haven't done that. They just stayed on the site. So 11 it's about, what, a mile from the river or so. So -- so 12 there's potential. I think there is a development across 13 the road. There's a mobile home park across the road. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Did they -- did they 15 indicate to you why they used the old floodplain? 16 MR. JOHNSTON: I haven't been able to get 17 them on the phone. I was calling -- I was calling their 18 office, but Cameron was busy over there. I had to call him 19 back. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think where you're 21 going, Larry -- I mean, if we're going to give any kind of 22 variance to this issue, if we need one, Vordenbaum would 23 have to recommend that it not hurt anything downstream, I 24 think. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. Your request -- 27 1 if you're going to have a variance, that's possible, but -- 2 MR. JOHNSTON: He said apparently it stayed 3 in the banks of the creek on the site, but he didn't do 4 anything to study downstream to see what it would do beyond 5 the site. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, it just sounds 7 to me like -- 8 MR. JOHNSTON: But they're using the old 9 maps. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- we need to get a 11 floodplain study involved, we need to make a downstream 12 determination, and we've got to get a water availability 13 certification from somebody that says there is water 14 available. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: T.N.R.C.C. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: From Aquasource, and 17 T.N.R.C.C. has to do that, it sounds like. So, those three 18 things need to be addressed, I think, before we can approve 19 this. Does that sound -- 20 MR. JOHNSTON: I pulled the -- the record on 21 our preliminary conference we did, concept plan. It's 22 concerning lot size, and there's a lot of pages of talk 23 about it, but I don't think a decision was ever made. So -- 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, that was -- the 25 thing there was, where you have a commercial, we really 28 1 didn't -- the rule didn't really look at it. And, again, we 2 said that for the short-term, that we would look at a 3 variance, as I recall. That was -- we would look at a 4 variance on-site for a commercial. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: Something -- you said you'd 6 look at it, but there's apparently some disagreement. 7 There's a lot of pages talking about it. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: But I think until we 9 get those three things done, we really can't go much farther 10 with it. At the same time, Jonathan, perhaps I can get with 11 you and take a look at the Subdivision Rules and maybe 12 consider a tweak in the commercial area. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, right now we're 14 silent in the commercial area. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's right. That's 16 what I mean. We don't say anything about it. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: There's one issue also that -- 18 there's a couple minor things I had in my memo, but the 19 issue -- in the transcript of the preliminary conference, 20 they talked about having the road accessible to the public, 21 but it would be a private road. In this plat, I don't think 22 it specifies either way whether it's public or private. 23 And, we -- I think we talked a little bit about it, but we 24 never did decide on the actual width and design of the road 25 for a commercial subdivision, since it could have more truck 29 1 traffic and heavy traffic than a normal automobile traffic 2 residential subdivision would have. So, possibly the road 3 would be -- instead of a country lane, might have to be a 4 wider standard local road. Might have to even have 5 additional base material for this type of application. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: This plat does not 7 propose either. 8 MR. JOHNSTON: No, it doesn't address that at 9 all, as I recall. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is there a septic issue as 11 well? We have a letter from Stuart Barron indicating that 12 they can only -- can't have more than -- the largest on-site 13 sewage facility that can be installed under the subchapter 14 is 5,000 gallons per day or less. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: You may not have seen that 16 yet. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: No, I haven't seen that 18 letter. That's what I was waiting to get, apparently. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Franklin? 20 MR. JOHNSTON: Do they propose putting a 21 collective system or individual -- 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm not sure. 23 MR. JOHNSTON: I'm not sure. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That is the letter we 25 received this morning. 30 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me make sure I gave 3 him the right thing. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I just -- I don't 5 think we have any choice but to defer this. We're going to 6 have to get some answers to some of these questions before 7 we can move on it, really, either way. So, I think this 8 needs -- 9 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, they have to -- like, on 10 residences sometimes, on lots, they show the area where they 11 would develop, an area where they put a septic system. On 12 commercial, they can cover up the majority of the lot with 13 parking and buildings. They have to designate a certain 14 area for septics and that they actually make work on each 15 lot, 'cause some of the lots are half-acre lots. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would think that you 17 would -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, we've got to 19 have something -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have to know there's 21 space on each lot for -- 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: For a septic system. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, for a septic 24 system. And I think it needs to be noted -- you know, 25 somehow noted that out of each lot, so much square feet have 31 1 to be reserved for the septic somewhere, or pretty uniform. 2 MR. JOHNSTON: .59 lot size is pretty small. 3 Even in the old days, when we had water systems, we only 4 allowed 1 acre for septic. This is half that size. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I think, you know, 6 Stuart -- if he could give us some sort of determination as 7 to how many square feet are going to be required for some of 8 the generic systems, and that needs to be noted. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And is it a simple 10 system? Is it a -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Septic. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is it an individual 13 lot? We've got to know some of that, I think. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: They don't show a lot on this 15 for disposal, so it must be one on each side. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone from the developer 17 here? 18 MR. JOHNSTON: Do you have some answers? 19 MR. BRANDENBURG: Yes, sir. Your Honor, 20 Commissioners, my name is Gary Brandenburg. I'm a land 21 surveyor here in Kerrville, and was asked to stand in for 22 Steve Jenschke and Larry Richter, the developer and realtor 23 of the project. I guess the comments that I have are in 24 regards to the engineering of Nichols Creek there. I'm a 25 little confused. Well, I'm a land surveyor; I won't even 32 1 attempt to interpret the engineering plans Vordenbaum have 2 produced, but I can comment why -- why he was involved in 3 the project, and it basically was to challenge the 4 floodplain width in that vicinity according to the FEMA map. 5 We went in and performed a series of cross-sections, 6 starting on the downstream side of the Highway 27 bridge, 7 and went all the way through the development and on into the 8 Windmill Communities property a little bit. That 9 information was turned over to Vordenbaum. He ran a HEC1 10 and HEC2 study on that information, and determined that the 11 floodplain for the 100-year duration was somewhat reduced in 12 width through there, and that is represented by a line on 13 that plat. To my knowledge, there are no plans to modify 14 the creek in any manner, or even the removal of any brush 15 along its banks. What happens to that brush after people, 16 you know, were -- develop these lots -- you know, I'm not 17 certain what, you know, they might do, but I guess I'm 18 surprised that the flows increase by four times, and I'm not 19 sure what -- what event has created that. I know that some 20 engineering was done to address the storm water runoff, you 21 know, from the streets and parking lots and drainage 22 easements, and a drainage channel has been provided for 23 that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What could have caused 25 the flow? 33 1 MR. BRANDENBURG: Well, I'm not an engineer, 2 so I can't even speculate, you know, what would create that 3 or -- nothing at this point has really changed. As far as 4 the storm water runoff, there will be some impervious 5 structures, you know, rooftops, concrete parking lots, et 6 cetera, that will decrease the natural ground's ability to 7 absorb water, and that rainwater will run off through the 8 drainage easements. I can't imagine the velocity of that 9 creek changing four-fold, but those are not my numbers. 10 Those are Stuart Vordenbaum's numbers. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I don't know either, 12 but it -- intuitively, I don't think the velocity increase 13 in flow is as much of an issue as water availability, 14 septic, and use of the right floodplain map. Those three 15 things -- I come back to that again. Those three things, to 16 me, are the real drivers. And if we can get a good analysis 17 on the increase in velocity and what that does downstream, I 18 don't think that will turn out -- and this is intuitive now, 19 but I don't think that would be as big a problem as getting 20 these other issues settled. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So I recommend that we 23 defer this until -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, you know, 25 Vordenbaum needs to either have a representative here or 34 1 send a letter explaining -- or maybe the developer or 2 someone explaining. Those numbers, I presume, came off a 3 summary of flows which is on the plat for this that Stuart 4 Vordenbaum prepared. And, you know, some kind of 5 determination as to what that means downstream. 6 MR. BRANDENBURG: Yes, I agree with that. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll defer this until such 8 time as Franklin and the developer have resolved some of the 9 issues we've discussed today, as well as some of the other 10 issues that are raised in Franklin's memo to the Court and 11 Headwaters' correspondence, which has been handed over to 12 Franklin. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does Gary have any 14 specific questions? Septic? Are you handling all that? 15 MR. BRANDENBURG: For the most part, I'm 16 handling the survey aspects and the platting process of this 17 development. Stuart Vordenbaum would be the engineer for 18 the project. Larry Richter and I are kind of working 19 side-by-side, and, you know, just basically addressing the 20 issues that are presented, you know, in regards to this 21 development. And I stand before you as -- basically, as an 22 informant in both directions. I will convey to 23 Mr. Jenschke, you know, what the Court has suggested today, 24 acknowledged, and then I also will visit with Franklin 25 Johnston in regards to, you know, what process he wishes to 35 1 see as far as re-presenting this to you at a later date. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Gary, one other comment. 3 You mentioned when you first got up about that Vordenbaum 4 did some cross-sections and is recommending, I guess, 5 modifying the floodplain. Jim, there's a procedure, I 6 presume, for that to actually take place? I mean, if 7 they're -- I mean, the floodplain maps clearly are drawn 8 with a broad pen, essentially, so once it's defined exactly 9 where that floodplain is, there's a procedure to get that 10 into the FEMA system; is that correct? 11 MR. BROWN: That is correct, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, Vordenbaum or you or 13 Mr. Jenschke or someone needs to get with U.G.R.A., and if 14 they're recommending or think there should be a change in 15 the actual floodplain location, that needs to be done 16 presumably through U.G.R.A. 17 MR. BRANDENBURG: Yes, sir, that process is 18 actually underway. Part of Vordenbaum's flood study 19 process, in addition to the cross-sections and the computer 20 analysis, is to apply to FEMA for a -- what they call a 21 LOMA, or Letter of Map Amendment. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 MR. BRANDENBURG: And it typically can be a 24 6- to 8-week process to receive that information back. As 25 far as I know, that information has not been returned. 36 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. And that will 2 involve one of the questions that Larry had regarding 3 floodplain map -- correct map being used. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 6 Brandenburg. 7 MR. BRANDENBURG: Thank you. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Appreciate it. The next two 9 items, 5 and 6, relate to a public hearing which is posted 10 for 10 o'clock, so we'll go ahead and skip ahead and come 11 back to those. Let's take up Item Number 7, which is to 12 consider and approve name changes for privately maintained 13 roads in Precinct 2 and 4 in accordance with the 911 14 guidelines. Commissioner Griffin, this is mostly yours. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. These -- these 16 name changes, by the way, are privately maintained roads, 17 not county-maintained. They were coordinated through the 18 Road and Bridge Department with the appropriate folks. Is 19 there any discussion of it? If not, I'll make a motion that 20 we approve the name changes. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 23 Griffin, second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 24 approve the name changes for privately maintained roads in 25 Precincts 2 and 4 as presented. Any further questions or 37 1 comments? If not, all in favor raise your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Commissioner 6 Baldwin, are your folks here? Number 8? If not, we can 7 go -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, they're not. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, we'll come back. It's 10 listed for 10:30. Let's go to Item Number 9, consider and 11 discuss approval of an acquisition of a cell phone and 12 service from local company. Jannett Pieper, County Clerk. 13 MS. PIEPER: Thank you, gentlemen. As you 14 know, I have been before you once before, and you had asked 15 our technology person, Shaun, to check on this. It's my 16 understanding that he checked on it and he said that as it 17 stands right now, there is no great savings if we do it 18 county. Therefore -- and he was not going to recommend a 19 company as a result of that. Therefore, I'm back on the 20 agenda again. My early voting is coming up; I need a phone. 21 My preference is Sprint, only because I have had experience 22 with Sprint and with Verizon, and I think Sprint is a better 23 service. There's too much patchy area with the Verizon. If 24 you have any questions about that service and what we can 25 get, I have bought Michelle from Sprint that could answer 38 1 questions. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any questions? What's it 3 going to cost? 4 MS. WALDROP: I can give them these. This is 5 just the phone part of it, but the technology -- the U.S. 6 government originally developed it, so it's not phonable 7 like the other companies will be phonable, like, in a matter 8 of weeks, but this is strictly digital. Did you get one, 9 Jannett? 10 MS. PIEPER: Yes, I have one. Sprint is 11 going to waive the activation fee, no deposit, $50 mail-in 12 phone rebate, $10 off in-store purchase of any select Sprint 13 PCS phones, free accessories, which is a $50 value, and then 14 refer-a-friend program. I think that is their standard 15 feature there. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the monthly 17 fee? 18 MS. PIEPER: Excuse me? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Monthly fee? 20 MS. WALDROP: $34.99. 21 MS. PIEPER: $34.99. $34.99 monthly fee. 22 MS. WALDROP: But right off you get an extra 23 6,000 minutes a year on the refer-a-friend program. It's 24 like Nextel. Nextel has the radio-to-radio feature. This 25 is PCS-to-PCS. 39 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does this system -- is 2 that a full coverage through the county? 3 MS. PIEPER: I have not really experienced 4 many -- the only dead spot I have -- that I have experienced 5 is in my house. But, you know, if we compare that to 6 Verizon, my son has that service. He has to go a couple 7 blocks down. Me, I can walk out on my front porch. But, I 8 mean, I don't need this service at my house. But they do 9 have towers up in Center Point, Comfort, Ingram, two in 10 Fredericksburg. They're putting a repeater on Southway. 11 They have several in the Kerrville area. They just recently 12 put one up in Mountain Home. In Harper, they're going to be 13 up by December, and then I believe you said Junction as well 14 would have one? 15 MS. WALDROP: We're working on Junction. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only reason I ask -- 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's essentially 18 county-wide. 19 MS. PIEPER: It's my understanding that the 20 other phone companies work off of the L.C.R.A. tower. 21 MS. WALDROP: No, the Five Star, just the 22 local. But with our technology, with CDMA, it gives you 23 1900 megahertz where you can get not just local information, 24 but federal also. And you can -- it's -- all the phones are 25 internet capability, so you can just plug in your PC 40 1 wherever you are. You can pull up any federal information. 2 The San Antonio Police Department is using Sprint because of 3 the -- the cloneable -- it's not cloneable. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What is the home area 5 generally before you start having a roaming charge? 6 MS. WALDROP: It's 95 percent covered. The 7 only part that's not covered is about 16 miles out toward 8 Junction. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does that include San 10 Antonio? 11 MS. WALDROP: Oh, yes. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: In fact, it covers 13 most of the metropolitan areas of the state. If you're on 14 network -- on Sprint PCS, you can call anywhere in the 15 country that has Sprint network. 16 MS. PIEPER: My son that has the Verizon, you 17 can go down the road, and his phone beeps continuously in 18 and out between roaming and digital, so it's very 19 distracting. The other phone from -- from Sprint doesn't do 20 that. If it rings, you answer it, and that's it. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 24 Williams, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 25 authorize the County Clerk to acquire a cell phone and 41 1 service with local company. Any further questions or 2 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 7 MS. PIEPER: Thank you. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Jannett. Item 9 Number 10, consider and discuss supporting the printing 10 costs for WET water conservation brochure. Commissioner 11 Letz? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is the brochure that 13 I brought to the Court, I guess about a month ago, and they 14 approved the form of it. The County's name is on it; it's 15 kind of water conservation for Kerr County. The -- WET is a 16 group of -- loosely-knit group of representatives that 17 represent, you know, pretty basically every -- well, they 18 list them all on the front, all the governmental entities 19 and some individuals as well. Anyway, the printing cost, 20 they're having to go to the entities to cover the printing 21 cost, and they have asked that I bring it to the County to 22 -- for our contribution to be one of two ways. One, either 23 a $500 contribution towards the printing cost. They plan on 24 doing, like, 10,000 copies initially, and probably a second 25 printing will be required at some point. Either a $500 42 1 contribution from the County, or I brought up, in lieu of 2 that, if they'd be willing to use the services of Shaun to 3 create a -- a spot on the County's web page and upkeep it 4 with the same -- with the same information that would be 5 available. It would seem to be -- to me, it would be a 6 way -- something that would not be a -- even though you do 7 have some money in the budget for purposes like this in this 8 year's budget, I'd recommend really that we try to take the 9 second approach and have Shaun work on a web page with the 10 WET group to put up a number of water conservation issues, 11 including this pamphlet on the County's web page, and have 12 links to U.G.R.A. and City of Kerrville and other -- 13 Headwaters and other entities that deal with water issues. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sounds like a good 15 idea. We could also keep it updated and with additions and 16 changes and that kind of thing, too. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the idea would be 18 to go directly to -- as we get into drought periods, have 19 the -- you know, the City's basically got kind of one 20 location where we would keep track of water issues, of, you 21 know, flows of the Guadalupe and well levels and things like 22 that, as they try to get people more aware of water 23 conservation throughout the county. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They still intend on 25 printing it? 43 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, they would still 2 intend -- intent on printing this. They would go to other 3 people to give them money, as opposed to the County 4 contributing $500. I think U.G.R.A. is looking at a $500 5 contribution. City of Kerrville, $500 contribution. 6 Headwaters, either $500 or $250, something like that. 7 They're going to -- and I think, to my knowledge, everyone 8 has agreed to contribute so far that they've asked. But 9 nobody came up with a way to do the web page for them, and I 10 brought that up and thought we could do that. Shaun -- that 11 would be a good use of his abilities. So, I'll make a 12 motion that the County's contribution to the WET brochure 13 will be to have Shaun work on a web page for WET that will 14 be part of the Kerr County web page. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I second that motion. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 17 second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court authorize the 18 computer guru to work on a WET -- a web page presentation of 19 the WET water conservation brochure and other water 20 conservation issues as our contribution to the WET brochure 21 dissemination. Any questions or comments? If not, all in 22 favor, raise your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 44 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Let's take a 2 couple more before our 10 o'clock hearing. Let's go to 3 Number 15, consider and discuss adoption of a resolution 4 authorizing signatories to T.C.D.P. Contract Number 721075. 5 This is one of the grants that we received for the 6 wastewater project out in Kerrville South, and we have to do 7 a resolution authorizing the specific signatories on the 8 various documents. Does anyone have any questions or 9 comments? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is the final of 11 all these, is it not, Judge? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would move it for 14 approval and signature. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 17 Williams, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 18 adopt the resolution authorizing designated signatories for 19 Texas Community Development Program Contract 721075. Any 20 further questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise 21 your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 45 1 16, consider and discuss the nomination of Paula Rector 2 and/or others for Kerr Central Appraisal District Board of 3 Directors. Paula has served ably as our nominee on the 4 Appraisal District Board of Directors, and is willing to do 5 so. Y'all remember, this is kind of a weighted voting 6 thing. We have the ability to nominate other individuals if 7 we'd like to. Then we can vote specifically for one or 8 divide our votes. I guess the first question would be, is 9 there anyone else who has any other nominees for the 10 position of member of the Board of Directors of Kerr Central 11 Appraisal District? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we reappoint Paula 13 Rector. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second -- third. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 17 second by Commissioner Williams, that the Commissioners 18 Court reappoint or renominate Paula Rector to serve as a 19 member of the Board of Directors of the Kerr Central 20 Appraisal District. Any further questions or comments? If 21 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 46 1 17, consider and discuss approval of contract with Office of 2 Court Administration. This is a contract between Kerr 3 County and the Office of Court Administration at the State 4 for partial reimbursement of salary expenses for the 5 Administrative Assistant for the Sixth Administrative 6 Judicial Region. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. I'm sorry, 8 go ahead. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: I was just going to ask for 10 that. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Move we approve. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And authorize County 13 Judge to sign same? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If it requires 15 signature, yes. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 18 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 19 approve the contract between the Office of Court 20 Administration and Kerr County, and authorize County Judge 21 to sign same. Any further questions or comments? If not, 22 all in favor, raise your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 47 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay. The 2 hour draws nigh for our public hearing, which is listed in 3 our books as Item Number 5. So, at this time we will recess 4 the Kerr County Commissioners Court meeting and open a 5 public hearing. 6 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:00 a.m., and a public hearing 7 was held in open court, as follows:) 8 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: The public hearing is for 10 road name changes in various locations in Kerr County, in 11 accordance with 911 guidelines. I believe these are public, 12 county-maintained roads. The name changes have been 13 published in the local newspaper, and I believe we have a 14 number of individuals who have indicated their desire to 15 speak on this matter, so we will start at the top and work 16 our way down. Joe Esquell. 17 MR. ESQUELL: Yes, sir. Good morning, Judge 18 and Commissioners. I'm Joe Esquell, and we would like -- 19 the people of the reservation community would like to have 20 the road changed from Tatsch Road to Reservation Road West. 21 Our schoolhouse was built there in 1920, and it's been the 22 center of the community ever since. And it's real 23 confusing, with the Reservation Road coming out of Harper, 24 the sign shows that it crosses 479, and that's a dead-end 25 road, and people go up there to my nephew to find out where 48 1 the Reservation Road is. Well, you tell them, "Well, it's 2 Tatsch Road." "Well, we don't know where Tatsch Road's at." 3 You tell them where the schoolhouse was. Oh, yeah, they all 4 remember that, but they don't know where Tatsch Road's at. 5 And, being the center of the community since 1920, we feel 6 it ought to be Reservation Road West. And, we have highways 7 and farm-to-market roads, and they're all named south and 8 west -- or I mean north and south and east and west. And 9 why can't this road be named Reservation Road West? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me address that 12 for just a little bit, if I may, Judge. I talked to your 13 nephew Les yesterday. He called me, we discussed this. 14 That particular name change is not on this list for, you 15 know, any kind of name change at this point. There is a 16 procedure, and I outlined that with -- with your nephew, and 17 I'll be glad to do that later with you as well. There is a 18 procedure we can go through to try to effect the kind of 19 name change you're talking about, but it will have to be 20 done separately from this hearing. But, I -- we know what 21 the issues are, and we can now do that. Now, we'll have to 22 end up -- and it involves some petitioning of landowners 23 that live on what is currently Tatsch Road. 24 AUDIENCE: Not to interrupt you -- I 25 apologize. I've got some more signatures. 49 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, that will have 2 to be done with the tax roll list and that kind of thing, 3 but we can address that as a separate issue. We just can't 4 address it at this time, because it's not on this list. But 5 that doesn't mean that we can't address it as a separate 6 issue, and we will do that. 7 MR. ESQUELL: Well, we got four pages of 8 signatures. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It will -- it will 10 require that we do another -- what is now Reservation Road 11 West, that is the piece that you're talking that comes out 12 of Gillespie County. That piece will have to -- would have 13 to be renamed if we were to rename Tatsch Road. So, it's 14 more than just renaming Tatsch Road. But we can do that. 15 There's a process and a procedure by which we can approach 16 that. 17 MR. ESQUELL: But, what -- do you mean the 18 other road has to be renamed? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 20 MR. ESQUELL: Why not make it "East" then? 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 'Cause that doesn't 22 conform to the 911 guidelines. So, it doesn't say that -- 23 there's no reason we couldn't change -- if we go through the 24 process, we could change what is now Reservation Road to 25 something else, and you can change what is now Tatsch Road 50 1 to Reservation Road. That's possible. So, we'll just have 2 to go through that -- that entire process, but we can't just 3 name -- we can't have two Reservation Roads, particularly a 4 Reservation Road East, because that's not the right 5 geographical region for a suffix like "East." You can't 6 have an East suffix out there. But, we could -- there are 7 other solutions, and we'll just have to go through those. 8 MR. ESQUELL: Well, what will it take? 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I will be glad to get 10 with you after this meeting today, and I can outline that 11 for you. I did outline it for your nephew yesterday. In 12 general, what it would -- he said he couldn't be here, but I 13 did go through that with him. It's a little lengthy, but we 14 can address that as a separate issue. 15 MR. ESQUELL: Well, that is -- that's the one 16 that people come up and ask him, where does the Reservation 17 Road go. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I understand. 19 MR. ESQUELL: Well, the road that they -- 20 people travel is a dead-end road. They pulled a trailer 21 house in there; couldn't turn around, hardly. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. It's obvious 23 that that -- there is a signage problem, at least, at that 24 point. But we can address that issue, too. 25 MR. ESQUELL: Well, I don't know if any of 51 1 the other people concerned about it want to say anything, 2 or -- 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. 4 Esquell. 5 MR. ESQUELL: Thank y'all. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Oehler? T.J. Oehler? 7 Did you want to say anything, sir? Again, Tatsch Road is 8 not on this list. We're not going to -- we'll take that up 9 at a separate day, so -- just so everybody understands. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It will be an issue 11 all by itself, too, which will make it much easier to 12 address. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Tom Bryant? 14 MR. BRYANT: I was here for Tatsch Road, too. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Mr. James Murphy? 16 MR. MURPHY: Right here. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Same thing? Okay. We have 18 Mr. Grace? 19 MS. GRACE: We have -- good morning. We have 20 a petition signed by all but five residences in the Bivouac 21 Estates area protesting renaming of our streets. With the 22 modern technology that we have, we don't understand why they 23 need to be changed, since there are maps available that give 24 directions to any location. But, if you are adamant that 25 they must be changed, since they are, for all practical 52 1 purposes, two contiguous blocks, why can they not be changed 2 to West Oak and West Cedar? This would be very much less 3 confusing for most of the people. But, of course, we would 4 prefer that they be left as they are. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Which names are we 6 talking about? 7 MS. GRACE: Oak Drive North and South and 8 Cedar Drive East and West. 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think there is -- 11 T.? Could I -- 12 MR. SANDLIN: Yes, sir? 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- maybe ask for your 14 help a little bit on the guidelines? I think the reason for 15 these particular name changes in the -- on those four was 16 due to the fact that they have prefixes that are directions. 17 MR. SANDLIN: And the other thing, we have so 18 many Cedars and so many Oaks. 19 MS. GRACE: They do not have prefixes. It's 20 Oak Drive North -- they were changed for some reason; we 21 have no idea why. They've always been Oak Drive North, Oak 22 Drive South, Cedar Drive East, and Cedar Drive West. Why 23 they were changed, nobody knows. 24 AUDIENCE: And when were they changed. 25 MS. GRACE: It's only been recently that they 53 1 were designated as that. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And so, obviously, 3 even if they retained -- even if they retained the Cedar or 4 Oak designation, which would -- might be a difficulty 5 because of duplication -- 6 MR. SANDLIN: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- they'd still 8 require a suffix -- a dropping of any suffix other than 9 West. 10 MR. SANDLIN: Yes, sir, because they're in 11 the west. As people know, the county was divided into the 12 six geo-regions, and the suffix will be the geo-region in 13 which this street lies, that being the west geo-region. 14 MS. GRACE: Then why couldn't Oak Drive North 15 and South become Oak Drive West, and Cedar Drive East and 16 West become Cedar Drive West? 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, the only thing 18 would be is if we ran through the guidelines, and by what -- 19 by the formula determination for resolving duplicates. 20 MR. SANDLIN: Which Cedar? Which Oak? 21 Which -- which Deer Run? Which Park? It's one of those 22 things. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would recommend, 24 Judge, in the -- in the interest of time, that we -- that we 25 table these four and go back and review those again, since 54 1 the -- since the idea of a prefix is not correct, as it's 2 shown on this list. So, I'd like to take another look at 3 that. 4 MR. SANDLIN: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And I can do that with 6 Truby. 7 MR. SANDLIN: And then we can -- I don't know 8 which -- which Cedar got weighted against which Cedar out in 9 that area, as far as population and density. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would recommend that 11 we defer these. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: We can do that. 13 MS. GRACE: Thanks very much. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thanks. Mr. W.A. Collins? 15 MR. COLLINS: I'm here to support Mrs. Grace 16 and what she had to say, but also I want to narrow this down 17 to my street, Oak Drive South. There are seven residences 18 and houses on that street, and six of them them are in town, 19 and they do not want it changed. The seventh, I have not 20 been able to get ahold of. If it is changed -- I think 21 simplicity is what you're looking for, isn't it? All right. 22 West Cedar Drive is shown to be changed to Kallie Drive 23 West. South Oak Drive is Kayla, K-a-y-l-a, Drive West. How 24 are you going to like -- how would you like to be given 25 instructions for Kayla or Kallie? And those two streets run 55 1 right together; they join right in the middle. So, I think 2 that needs some consideration there. And, it's already been 3 mentioned that these -- the suffixes, "W," do they go on the 4 address? 'Cause that's what goes on our letter in the mail. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If that's where you 6 get your mail, yes. 7 MR. COLLINS: In other words, I'd be 8 something number, Kayla Drive West? 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's correct. 10 MR. COLLINS: Well, in essence, that's what's 11 I got now. I got Oak Drive South. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. But the new 13 one would conform to the guidelines, where the old one 14 doesn't. That's the only reason for that change. 15 MR. COLLINS: Well, I'd like to be in on this 16 conference you have on this subject. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sure. 18 MR. COLLINS: On this subject, because it's 19 confusing to me. You've transposed Oak Drive South and put 20 it South Oak Drive in this newspaper item, and I don't 21 understand why. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, that's the 23 reason we're going to go back and review all of those. 24 MR. COLLINS: All right. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Be happy to do that. 56 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Mr. Collins. 2 Belinda Pruneda? 3 MS. PRUNEDA: Thank you. I'm here to support 4 Mr. Collins and Ms. Grace. To the issue that we've 5 previously discussed, Commissioner Griffin, I believe that 6 when I spoke with 911, that Oak Drive is not a duplication. 7 We went through the book. So, I just wanted to bring that 8 to your attention. And then, as Mr. Sandlin mentioned, 9 there are so many duplications on the Cedars. I was -- I 10 got the criteria from the 911 office that, I guess, rates 11 whose -- which names get changed and which don't. The only 12 information that I -- I could pull up as a private citizen 13 was the Appraisal District office, and I went through and 14 just looked at numbers of addresses on the Cedar Cliff and 15 the Cedar Springs, Cedar Mill, and Cedar Drive. It appears 16 that the Cedar Drive of which we speak serves, number one, 17 the most addresses, and number two, has been named that for 18 a longer period of time than any of the other three Cedars. 19 So, I -- I have had no way of determining which of the four 20 Cedar Drives had more historical value or not. I had no way 21 of doing that. But -- but the two -- what appeared to be 22 the most important criteria for changing the names of the 23 streets, from my research, shows our Cedar Drive has been 24 there longer and serves more addresses. Thank you for 25 hearing me. 57 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Is there anyone 2 else who'd like to address the Court on the name changes 3 proposed for public roads in Kerr County? This is the 4 public hearing portion of this proceeding. Is there anyone 5 else who'd like to address the Court and the public on the 6 name changes? Yes, ma'am, come forward. If you'll give us 7 your name? 8 MS. KING: Evelyn King, and I live at One Oak 9 Drive North. We have lived there since 1963. We were given 10 at that time this One Oak Drive North for our address, and 11 at the time that we moved there, there was no street signs 12 or no nothing, because that part of the Kerrville area was 13 not in the city limits. Since it has been in the city 14 limits -- and I will take credit for this. I asked -- I 15 called, because there had been several accidents. I had 16 called and asked them to put a sign down on the highway 17 after it became Oak Drive North, and after it became in the 18 city limits. They did that, but they failed to put -- they 19 just have Oak Drive. It is not Oak Drive North there. And, 20 in '63, when we moved there, this is what they gave us, One 21 Oak Drive North. And, I am like these others. When it was 22 changed to what it is now, we have no idea. I -- we were 23 not aware of it. So, I would like to be in on this 24 conference that is to be later. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, thank you. Would 58 1 anyone else like to address the Court on the changes in the 2 public roads? If not, we'll close the public hearing and 3 reconvene the regular meeting of the Kerr County 4 Commissioners Court. 5 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:16 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 6 meeting was reopened.) 7 - - - - - - - - - - 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item for consideration 9 is Item Number 6, consider and approve name changes for Kerr 10 County roads in various locations, in accordance 911 11 guidelines. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If I can just make kind 13 of a general comment kind of relating to the public hearing, 14 exactly what happened is what we want to happen when we -- 15 when we're changing lots of road names to get 911 in 16 compliance. And, the purpose of all this is for safety, and 17 so that 911, in their system and through the emergency 18 services, whether it be fire or police, can find the 19 residences. And, right now there's a real problem in that 20 area. You know, you all did exactly what you need to do, 21 come to these public hearings and let us know that, hey, 22 there's a road here that is -- a lot of the public is 23 disagreeing with. I think what Commissioner Griffin did is 24 what all the Commissioners will do, is recommend those names 25 be pulled out. We'll go back and take another look at them. 59 1 So, I mean, I applaud all of y'all for coming and making the 2 system work the way it's intended to work. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Absolutely. 4 MS. GRACE: May I say something? 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, ma'am. 6 MS. GRACE: Regarding the emergency vehicles 7 having difficulty finding the roads, there's one lady whose 8 whose husband had heart problems. She had to call 911, I 9 don't know how many times, more than once, and they never, 10 ever had a difficult -- a difficult problem finding the 11 place. There is one house that, unfortunately, burned, and 12 the owner said that the firemen from Kerrville and Ingram 13 were there within a matter of minutes with no difficulty 14 whatsoever. And, as I said previously, with the modern 15 technology, with the maps that are already in the computer 16 systems, it would seem that plugging in the addresses with 17 the map that gives you directions to get to anyplace would 18 certainly be sufficient. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's a different -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- but where there's 21 duplicates, all of a sudden, it comes up with two names in 22 the same -- same name, and there's confusion. That's where 23 we're trying to go through and get rid of the duplicate 24 names. 25 MS. GRACE: But the phone numbers that show 60 1 up, the 895 numbers are all west of Harper Road. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's not true. 3 MS. GRACE: Well, then they were supposed to 4 be. I don't know when they changed our phone numbers. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's long gone by the 6 board. 7 MS. PRUNEDA: But I believe that, too, when 8 you turn in our subdivision, the signs clearly say Cedar 9 Drive East, Cedar Drive West. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: We need to move on. We 11 can -- y'all can take that up afterwards. 12 MS. PRUNEDA: Okay. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Griffin, do you 14 want to make a motion? 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes, I'll make a 16 motion that we accept the name changes as presented, with 17 the exception of those roads that we've discussed, four 18 roads, what is listed for the public hearing purposes as 19 East Cedar Drive, West Cedar Drive, North Oak Drive, and 20 South Oak Drive. Pull those out of the list for 21 reconsideration, and that we go ahead and approve the rest 22 of them. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 25 Griffin, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 61 1 approve the name changes for Kerr County roads in various 2 locations as published in the newspaper, in accordance with 3 the 911 guidelines, except for East Cedar Drive West, West 4 Cedar Drive West, North Oak Drive West, and South Oak Drive 5 West. Any further questions or comments? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'd like to make a 7 comment, dovetail on Commissioner Letz' comments of you're 8 doing the right thing by coming in. I recently had a group 9 out south of town here that obviously refused to read the 10 newspaper, and we had changed -- we -- there wasn't anyone 11 to come into public hearings, so we went through the process 12 that we're going through right now of approving the name 13 changes, and suddenly there are 35 or 40 really, really 14 angry people out there. So, you're doing the right thing. 15 You're going about it the right way, and I appreciate y'all 16 coming in and doing this. And Commissioner Griffin, I'm 17 sure, is going to meet your needs. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, we've already 19 discussed this with several of the citizens and they've 20 communicated very well to me, and by coming to the public 21 hearing, I think exactly what you say is true, and that this 22 is the way the process works. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And if we don't get 25 these kind of inputs, it makes it very difficult to know if 62 1 the -- if anybody is upset. But, there were upset people, 2 and they made it known. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's a lot more fun 4 this way than the way I did it, believe me. 5 (Laughter.) 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right, T.? 7 MR. SANDLIN: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is a lot of fun. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 10 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Let's take up Item 17 Number 8, which is present a commendation to Kerr County for 18 their patriotic display of the flag. Commissioner Baldwin? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. W.J. Scott 20 from the Sons of the American Revolution, Hill Country 21 Chapter, has something good and nice to say to us, I think. 22 MR. SCOTT: Gentlemen, the Sons of the 23 American Revolution is a patriotic organization composed of 24 those men who can trace their ancestry back to participants 25 in the American Revolution. As such, we promote patriotism 63 1 and the display of the flag as part of our major agenda. 2 Since the County of Kerr displays the flag proudly and 3 properly, we feel that it's right and proper that we should 4 present this commendation to the County of Kerr, and our 5 only request is that this commendation be displayed as 6 prominently as the flag. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Mr. Scott. 8 This is my good neighbor. Thank you. 9 MS. LAVENDER: Buster, can I get a picture, 10 maybe? 11 (Discussion off the record.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Mr. Scott. We 13 appreciate it. 14 (Applause.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. At this time, we're 16 going to take our morning break. We will resume at 10:35. 17 I want to tell the Commissioners that we're going to take up 18 the Items Number 11 and 12, which is to amend the order 19 redrawing the Commissioners and Justice precincts, and to 20 adopt an order making changes to the election precincts. 21 And I just received this morning the new maps on the 22 election precincts, which I'm going to leave here. Jannett 23 and Paula have had a chance to look at them, and they agree 24 with them, subject to a numbering change. 25 MS. PIEPER: Correct. 64 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: But I'm going to leave these 2 two packets here, and if you all want to take a look at 3 those before we reconvene -- unfortunately, like I say, I 4 just got these this morning, and all we have are the two 5 maps that go with the order, but these will be here for your 6 review, and we'll be back at 10:35. 7 (Recess taken from 10:25 a.m. to 10:35 a.m.) 8 - - - - - - - - - - 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. We'll reconvene this 10 regular meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. The 11 next item for consideration is Item Number 11, which is 12 consider and discuss adoption of an amendment to order 13 redrawing Commissioners and J.P. precinct boundaries. As 14 y'all may recall, we adopted the order redrawing the 15 boundaries back in August. At that time, despite our making 16 this known to our consultants, that portion of the 17 courthouse which has the Justice of the Peace Precinct 1 18 office was not included in Precinct 1. So, what this 19 proposed amendment does is go back and redraws that border 20 in order to include Justice Elliott's office and his 21 precinct. If we don't do that, then we have to go find him 22 another office in his precinct. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can't just eliminate 24 the -- no. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: It takes a Constitutional 65 1 amendment. Don't tempt me. So, does anyone have any 2 questions? If not, I'd entertain a motion to adopt the 3 amendment to order redrawing Kerr County Commissioners and 4 Justice precinct boundaries based on 2000 census. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll make that motion. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 8 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 9 approve the amendment to order redrawing Kerr County 10 Commissioner and Justice precinct boundaries based on the 11 Year 2000 census. Any further questions or comments? If 12 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 17 12, then, is to consider and discuss an order adopting 18 changes to certain of the Kerr County election precincts as 19 a result of the changes in Commissioner precincts based on 20 the Year 2000 census. This exercise became a little more 21 complicated in the last few weeks -- last couple of weeks, 22 when our consultants discovered that voting election 23 precincts could not be in both the incorporated and the 24 unincorporated areas of the county, so they had to go back 25 and redraw and rename and reconfigure certain of the voting 66 1 and election precincts to make them all completely within 2 the City of Kerrville or all completely outside of the City 3 of Kerrville. And, they've done that. The map they propose 4 has been reviewed by Paula Rector, as well as Jannett Pieper 5 this morning. Paula's indicated to me she doesn't have any 6 problems with that, the redrawn map. I'll let Jannett -- 7 I'll ask her if she has any -- any concerns about the voting 8 election precincts as presented. 9 MS. PIEPER: No, I don't. After a total of 10 three trips to Austin, I think we have it all worked out. 11 We do have a total of 20 voting precincts now, which means 12 I'm going to have to get more voting booths, and we have to 13 find more voting polling locations and stuff, and I'm in the 14 process of working on that. And, Bickerstaff firm would 15 like me to have that done within a week so we can get that 16 preclearance in on that, so we're working on that. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Jannett, is there a way 18 to reduce that? I mean, I know you have to have -- there's 19 a -- 20 MS. PIEPER: No. The reason that came about 21 is that Section 42.007, I believe, in the Election Code, 22 that states that once a city population reaches 10,000, we 23 can't have a voting precinct that takes in some of the city 24 limits and then some of the unincorporated area. Therefore, 25 most of our changes came within the city limits. We've had 67 1 to break up precincts into two different precincts also 2 because of, like, the voting age population within that 3 census block. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, some of the rural 5 precincts, is it possible to combine some of them? 6 MS. PIEPER: We did combine 409 and 410. 7 That is now one area. That is about the only area that -- 8 between me and the Voter Registrar's office, that we felt 9 that we could combine without -- without having an 10 overpopulated area. This is a new copy of the map. Of 11 course, you have one in your book, as well. The numbers 12 that are on here is just numbers that is assigned by the 13 computer that the Bickerstaff firm uses. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it possible -- and I'm 15 looking at -- I'm -- you know, I haven't talked to any of 16 the residents in the area, but in 303 and 308, which is our 17 two areas in Precinct 3, to get -- 18 MS. PIEPER: It depends on population, as 19 well, because we can't have over 5,000. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 MS. PIEPER: And, trying not to go back next 22 year and redo this again. That's one of the reasons that we 23 broke down 113, is because it had 4,999 people, and the 24 first person that gives birth or something was going to put 25 us over the edge, so we want to keep it down to where the 68 1 population is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,000 to 2 3,000 in order to keep us from having to go back and -- and 3 retain this firm again and have it go back through. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Well, I mean, we 5 could -- and I know time's a little bit of an issue on 6 getting this through now, but if we wanted to combine some 7 of these next year, what's the procedure? Or in a year or 8 so, if we could, from a population standpoint, 'cause I 9 would think that some of these -- 10 MS. PIEPER: We could combine -- what -- what 11 they're showing on this map is, excuse me, 14 and 15 because 12 of the population. But then we would have to consider, 13 where is the voting polling location going to be? Because, 14 I mean, if you have it in the -- the northern part of Kerr 15 County, then the people that's down way south is going to 16 have so far to drive. So, we're trying to take that into 17 account also. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 19 MS. PIEPER: We want it easy access for the 20 voters. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a juggling act, 22 really, trying to figure out where to put the voting -- how 23 you draw it, where you put the voting locations. 24 MS. PIEPER: Right. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know it's getting 69 1 increasingly hard, with early voting, to get judges and 2 alternates -- 3 MS. PIEPER: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- in all those 5 locations. We're adding more instead of going the other 6 direction. Just trying to find out if there's any way we 7 can make the problem better in the future, rather than 8 worse. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: We can't. You can go through 10 the exercise of combining voting precincts; it just takes a 11 preclearance from the Justice Department. So, if we wanted 12 to combine -- 13 MS. PIEPER: Right, just like we did this 14 year. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: In two years, we could do 16 that. We just have to do it with -- the Court would have to 17 go out and do a survey and send it to the Justice Department 18 in order for them to sign off on it in time to have the 19 election and consolidation. 20 MS. PIEPER: Right. If we we find they're 21 not -- there's not very much of a voter turnout in these 22 areas, then we can come to court and inform you of that, and 23 then request that they be consolidated, like I did with the 24 Constitutional amendment this year, where we're only having 25 four voting locations. 70 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Paula? 3 MS. RECTOR: One thing I wanted to mention -- 4 and y'all were talking about coming in in a year or two down 5 the road and combining some of those precincts. If we're 6 thinking about doing it, we need to probably do it now, 7 because we have our mass mailout of voter registration cards 8 in December. All these changes need to be made prior to 9 that. It would be a whole lot more work on our part to go 10 back in another year or two and remail precincts, remail all 11 those voter registration cards. Where are the polling 12 places for 308 and 303? Are they -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 303, Cypress Creek. 308, 14 Calvary Temple Church. 15 MS. PIEPER: Calvary Temple Church. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We could combine, in 17 individual races, the voting locations, correct? As we're 18 doing for this next Constitutional election. We can leave 19 the 303 and 308 as separate entities, but if we choose to 20 combine the voting locations -- 21 MS. PIEPER: Yes, that's correct. 22 MS. RECTOR: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- that's an easier way 24 to -- 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: It just still takes us -- 71 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: From an administrative 2 standpoint, this is the way to do it, then, do what you're 3 talking about. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: It still takes the same 5 process, just to run it through the Justice Department 6 first. But, it's -- 7 MS. PIEPER: I'm getting really good with 8 those preclearances, too, so that's okay. 9 MS. RECTOR: The reason why we combined 409 10 and 410 so easily was because they were all voting at Sunset 11 anyway, so it wasn't going to change any of the polling 12 places there. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Jannett or Paula, 14 whomever, explain, please, if you will for the record the 15 changes in 215 versus 202. And -- 16 MS. PIEPER: I'm sorry, what did you say? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The changes that 18 appear to be between 215 and 202. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 MS. RECTOR: One of the reasons why we had to 21 break that precinct was because it was so heavily populated. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 23 MS. RECTOR: We followed the city limits 24 boundaries, which in the end we found that that was what we 25 needed to be doing all along, and we just took those people 72 1 within the city limits and moved them up. 'Cause we were, 2 on that precinct, very, very close to being over. 3 MS. PIEPER: We have a -- I have a fax from 4 Bickerstaff and firm that talks about the changes and why. 5 215 area was within the city limits. It remains in the 6 precinct because it contains minimal population. City 7 territory appears noncontiguous. It absorbs the area west 8 of the San Antonio Highway and east of the Bandera Highway 9 from Precinct 211. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm unclear as to 11 whether there's a change coming off of 173 -- I'm looking at 12 this color map of revised Plan B. 13 MS. PIEPER: I don't know if I have a map 14 that's going to be big enough. 15 MS. RECTOR: We don't have that map. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me show you what 17 I'm asking about. If this piece right here represents a 18 change -- 19 MS. RECTOR: No, there was no changes made 20 here. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No change there. 22 MS. RECTOR: Only changes were made up in the 23 city part. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 25 MS. PIEPER: Basically, that's where most of 73 1 our changes are, is in the city limits, other than the 2 exception of 409 and 410. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I need to go back to 5 where I was a minute ago, also, on the number of locations 6 in Precinct 3. Do you feel comfortable we can find that 7 many judges in, like, 302 and 303? 8 MS. PIEPER: Well, as far as Republican 9 judges, I have no problem with that. When it comes to the 10 other party, I may have problems. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Well, we can 12 combine them if we need to. 13 MS. PIEPER: But with it -- with primaries, 14 that's basically going to fall back on the county chair, so 15 I'm going to ask for their assistance. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, thank you. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 18 comments? Larry? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. Just ready to 20 make a motion. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right, fire away. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I move that we adopt 23 the changes -- the amended changes to the Kerr County 24 election precincts as shown. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'd like to second 74 1 that motion. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 3 Griffin, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 4 approve the order adopting changes to certain of the Kerr 5 County election precincts as a result of changes in 6 Commissioner precincts based on the 2000 census. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One more comment, Judge, 8 if I may. This -- does this plan take into account the 9 conflict between Precinct 1 and 4, Upper Turtle Creek, that 10 we had to go through last time? Is that incorporated in 11 this plan? 12 MS. RECTOR: The census block prevented us 13 from bringing those people in 107 that were in 6 or 5, 14 whatever they were in, to bring them into 7. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, they're going to have 16 to drive back around -- 17 MS. RECTOR: Wasn't even a possibility. 18 MS. PIEPER: That was discussed when we went 19 down to Austin. 20 MS. RECTOR: We tried. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I appreciate you 23 bringing that up, though, Commissioner Letz. Good watchdog. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 25 comments? If not, all in favor raise your right hand. 75 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item is 5 Item Number 13, consider and discuss approval of the first 6 amendment to the U.G.R.A. - O.S.S.F. contract. The proposed 7 amendment is in your packet. Essentially, all it does is to 8 amend the contract we were operating under last year to 9 extend the term, and also to authorize the payment of the 10 $30,000 in administrative support that was approved by the 11 Court in this year's budget. Anyone have any questions or 12 comments? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I do. I have a 14 question that's kind of a sideline question here in regards 15 to the -- our agreement with U.G.R.A. And, I was just going 16 over this all through the weekend and just came up with a 17 question, and I'm sure it's going to be easy to answer. In 18 our Intergovernmental Agreement for Operation, under 19 Contracted Services, Article III -- 3.3, "ten copies of the 20 program audit will be submitted to the County within 10 days 21 following acceptance of the audit by the U.G.R.A. Board of 22 Directors." I have never seen that. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you speaking to 24 the next item, which has to do with the Kerrville South 25 project? 76 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well -- 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, he's looking at the 3 existing -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, looking at the 5 existing -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't see it in my 7 packet. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- Intergovernmental 9 Agreement. No, I went out and dug it up myself. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're welcome to have 12 this as soon as we get -- as soon as I get my question 13 answered. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Brown, do you have any 15 comment on that? Or can we ask you to look at that and get 16 back to us at your earliest convenience? 17 MR. BROWN: I'll be happy to. We file that 18 audit with the County Clerk's office. I wouldn't think we 19 file 10 copies, but we do file the audit. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 22 MR. BROWN: As a matter of fact, I'm almost 23 positive we don't file 10 copies, not at the expense of our 24 audit report. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, I could go down to 77 1 the Clerk's office and get my very own copy. When does this 2 happen? Ten days following when your Board accepts the 3 audit? 4 MR. BROWN: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whenever that is. 6 MR. BROWN: That usually is in the last week 7 of January, because we have to have that audit on file at 8 T.N.R.C.C. on -- by February the 14th, I think. So, we're 9 somewhere close to St. Valentine's Day, as in Chicago's 10 massacre. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Any other 13 questions or comments? Do I have a motion to approve the 14 first amendment? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move the approval 16 of the first amendment to the U.G.R.A. - O.S.S.F. contract, 17 and authorize County Judge to sign same. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 20 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 21 approve the First Amendment to Intergovernmental Agreement 22 for Operation of Kerr County O.S.S.F. Program, and authorize 23 County Judge to sign same. Any further questions or 24 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 78 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: I believe it's Mr. Brown's 4 and my common concurrence that we need to redo this 5 agreement and will be doing so shortly, in time for the next 6 year's exercise, if not before. Next item for consideration 7 is Item Number 14, consider and discuss approval of the 8 interlocal agreement with U.G.R.A. for Kerrville South 9 Wastewater Program. In your packet, you have the proposed 10 intergovernmental agreement. I will point out to the -- for 11 the Court's benefit that this agreement was negotiated with 12 the U.G.R.A. by our former County Attorney -- Assistant 13 County Attorney, Travis Lucas. And, before he left, he 14 concurred in its suitability for this purpose. Anyone have 15 any questions or comments? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The comment I have is 17 that, with this in, this gets us moving, I think, a little 18 closer to reality on the Kerrville South Wastewater Project. 19 And, happy to see that happen. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone else? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I would move 22 the approval of the interlocal agreement with U.G.R.A. for 23 Kerrville South Wastewater Project and authorize County 24 Judge to sign same. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 79 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 2 Williams, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 3 approve the Intergovernmental Agreement for 2001 Texas 4 Community Development Program with the U.G.R.A., and 5 authorize County Judge to sign same. Any further questions 6 or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 11 MR. BROWN: Thank you, gentlemen. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do you want to take this 13 opportunity and give a little -- Jim? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe not. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do you want to take -- give 16 us about three minutes, an update on the program? 'Cause I 17 think this is one of the most significant things that we've 18 done here in a long time. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Before you do, let me 20 just say that I did provide the Commissioners with these 21 maps that were provided to me through -- by Groves 22 Engineering. My -- as the Judge indicated, it might be 23 helpful if you shed a little light on it. 24 MR. BROWN: Okay. Let me just quickly bring 25 you an update. I have a meeting scheduled with the City 80 1 Manager at 3 o'clock today to go through the particulars on 2 intercepter points and things of this nature. That meeting 3 maybe pushed off, I believe, till Thursday, but we have a 4 couple of key issues. We had a couple of key issues in the 5 very beginning, and that was whether the City's wastewater 6 treatment plant would be able to handle loading beyond just 7 that of the original target grant area. The City Council, 8 in approval of their bond issue, will consider as one of the 9 those eligible expenses the -- the upgrading of the head 10 works at that plant. They built a new plant. When they 11 built the new plant, they did not build the new head works, 12 and so the capacity of that plant is -- was restricted to 13 only what they could pass through the head works. So, 14 that's been -- has been taken care of. It will be corrected 15 by the City, and that's an expense that -- that we're not 16 going to have to look at. 17 The other issue I want to share with you is 18 that we now have six different landowners, property owners 19 in Kerrville South who have come in and signed an interest 20 letter to explore the expansion of the wastewater project 21 beyond the project -- the government-funded project area. 22 The other issue is -- is -- and we will deal with those 23 after we get the project initiated. We have talked with 24 Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs. They 25 will allow us to fund a -- an over-capacity in the main 81 1 outflow lines or the main intercepter line in order to 2 accommodate a much larger portion of Kerrville South, and 3 the State will absorb that within the grant. So -- so, that 4 gets us into a situation where we can be able to look at 5 expanding the project beyond the project area. Also, there 6 is some additional neighborhoods in Kerrville South that 7 apparently, according to Grantworks, will qualify for maybe 8 a second grant next year to extend into that -- to extend 9 the service into that area. 10 So, we've got the grant and the engineering 11 development of this program online, and the immediate focus, 12 we're looking at an additional grant for next year to expand 13 it into additional areas where folks would qualify for the 14 program. And then the third area is the service of the area 15 where people would not qualify for a grant, and U.G.R.A. 16 Board has talked about this. If -- when it's necessary and 17 the people want it, I think we're prepared to issue revenue 18 bonds, which would be supported by the fees collected in 19 the -- from the surface. And then the other area is -- that 20 we have on the horizon is, we're looking at -- we're in 21 communication with the folks down at Center Point and 22 Commissioner Williams. They are very interested in seeing 23 the program that they had going a while back picked back up 24 again, and so we're beginning to look at that as -- as the 25 next target area. 82 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just quickly, the 2 meeting that you're going to have with the City Manager and 3 his utilities person, I assume, or engineer has to do with 4 these four questions that were outlined -- 5 MR. BROWN: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- in the Groves 7 memo? 8 MR. BROWN: Yes, sir. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Thank you, Jim. 10 Appreciate it. The next item is Item Number 18, which is 11 consider and discuss a request from Jerry Swafford for 12 declaration of local agricultural emergency. Mr. Swafford 13 is from Mason, and he contacted me regarding some action 14 that some of our brother Commissioners Courts in Yoakum 15 and -- I believe it was Dawson County have taken regarding 16 declaring local agricultural emergencies. He asked if we 17 would consider a similar declaration. I have invited 18 Mr. Swafford to be with us today. Unfortunately, he called 19 this morning and said he was not going to be able to be 20 here. I don't have any particular opinion on the request by 21 Mr. Swafford. I put it on the agenda as a courtesy to him, 22 and do not -- I would ask the Court to take whatever action 23 we feel necessary. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it would be 25 wise for Mr. Swafford to come back again at a point when 83 1 he's ready to -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. We need 3 some explanation. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'm lost on what part 5 of the swamp we're draining with this, and sort of why is it 6 being pushed by certain people? And, that's -- I mean, it's 7 fine. I mean, it's probably straight up and okay, but I 8 just -- I don't get enough out of the write-up to be able 9 to -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't see a purpose. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I think it -- you know, 12 in fairness to Mr. Swafford, I think it may be something 13 that's real important in his neck of the woods, but since we 14 don't have as many dry land farmers and grain farmers in 15 this part of the country, it may not have the same impact 16 down here. So, I'll be happy to contact Mr. Swafford and 17 say that, while the Court was interested in the issue, we 18 needed a little bit better explanation as to the substance 19 before we were prepared to make a decision. Is that 20 generally everyone's consensus on this issue? 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: I will do that. We'll see 23 what he wants to do. The next item is Item Number 19, 24 consider and discuss approval of Joint Resolution supporting 25 the Texas Department of Transportation Aviation Capital 84 1 Improvement Funding for Airport Improvements at the 2 Kerrville/Kerr County Municipal Airport. This is a 3 resolution that we do basically every year in order to 4 qualify and seek grants for the continued improvement of the 5 Kerrville/Kerr County Municipal Airport. Megan, is there 6 anything you want to say to us on this issue? 7 MS. CAFFALL: I'm just here to answer any 8 questions, if anyone has any questions. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Total cost to the 10 County would be somewhere in the vicinity of $173,000 when? 11 MS. CAFFALL: Well, the grant is split up 12 over two budget years. This budget year we have two grant 13 matches, one for the engineering and design, and one for the 14 property acquisition. The total grant match there is 15 $95,800. That's included in this year's airport budget, 16 which we've submitted and the City Council has adopted, and 17 I assume the County did the same. The following year, the 18 grant match is $247,000, and we haven't projected -- at the 19 most, it would be half of that. Half of that. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: This year is already 22 taken care of. 23 MS. CAFFALL: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Budget-wise. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 85 1 comments? If not, I'd entertain a motion to approve the 2 resolution. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 6 Griffin, second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 7 approve the joint resolution supporting the Texas Department 8 of Transportation Aviation Capital Improvement Funding for 9 Airport Improvements at the Kerrville/Kerr County Municipal 10 Airport. Any further questions or comments? If not, all in 11 favor, raise your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item is 16 Item Number 20, which is consider and discuss approval of 17 the fee schedule for the airport T-hangars. Once again, 18 Megan, do you have anything you want to say on this one? 19 MS. CAFFALL: If there's any questions, or 20 would you like me to outline the provisions of the 21 interlocal agreement between the City of Kerrville and Kerr 22 County to construct the hangars? Also included are 23 provisions for the City to lease the hangars according to a 24 fee schedule agreed upon by both City and County. So -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Megan, where -- my 86 1 question is, where do you get these kind of numbers? I 2 mean, do you talk to other airports around the community -- 3 other communities? Or do you do like us, just start pulling 4 numbers out of the air, and -- 5 MS. CAFFALL: No, we have to -- we have to be 6 fair and not discriminatory by our grant assurances. We 7 can't charge significantly more or less than comparable 8 airports. We have an airport survey that comes out every 9 year, and we picked 25 comparable airports to arrive at the 10 figure almost two years ago when we started budgeting for 11 this project, and the figure that we budgeted for and used 12 to figure all our revenues and expenses was $250 a month for 13 each hangar. That -- that fee is still relative. It was on 14 the high side when we started. It's closer to the middle 15 high side now. And, one of the advantages to doing the fee 16 schedule is that the lease is tied to the fee schedule, so 17 every year we'll reexamine our rates. Are our rates 18 comparable? Are we falling on the low side? In that case, 19 we need to raise them. I don't think we'll contemplate the 20 other alternative, but there is an opportunity there every 21 year to look at the fee schedule, and then the leases are 22 tied to it. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Megan, what's your 24 percentage of occupancy -- anticipated occupancy now? 25 MS. CAFFALL: The hangars are all spoken for 87 1 now, and I have a waiting list again. When the fee schedule 2 is adopted by both City and County, I'm anticipating that 3 the hangars should be ready to occupy November 1st. As soon 4 as I say that, we'll have rain for the next three weeks, but 5 the big buildings are completed. The paving work is 6 started. The base material's all in, and the grades are 7 set. The drainage structures are in, so rain shouldn't 8 cause real problems. The concrete work will be starting 9 this weekend, and the paving will follow right after, so I'm 10 assuming that they're going to be available November 1st. 11 And, about -- with this adopted fee schedule, I can go ahead 12 and send the lease agreements out. I'd like to point out 13 that some of these hangars are being leased by people who 14 are either out of the state or out of Kerr County at this 15 point, so there's going to be a small amount of time in 16 turnaround, getting these leases back. I'd like to get them 17 all spoken for, and then if anyone falls out, we'll move to 18 the waiting list. So, I'm hoping and planning for 100 19 percent occupancy. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Megan, how does this fee 21 structure relate to the payout that was anticipated on the 22 T-hangar -- 23 MS. CAFFALL: It will take about, at 100 24 percent occupancy and at this rate, eight years to pay them 25 off completely. They generate $40,000 a year in revenue. 88 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that about where we 2 were when we entered the project? Or -- I don't remember 3 what the payout anticipated was. 4 MS. CAFFALL: Well, the hangars have come in 5 almost $2,000 under budget, so figuring on the $320,000 6 expense at $40,000, you're looking at -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was out at the 8 airport last week at a party, and I came within a slingshot 9 of the hangars, and I kind of wanted to go up there, but I 10 thought I better -- I want to go look at them, is what I'm 11 trying to say. 12 MS. CAFFALL: I want to have a -- a 13 "thank-God-this-is-over" party. A -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank-God-this-is-over 15 party? 16 MS. CAFFALL: I'm looking forward to, you 17 know, getting these open for business, and -- and I'm 18 planning on having a -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're all going to be 20 together out there -- 21 MS. CAFFALL: -- ribbon-cutting, appreciation 22 ceremony. It's been a lot of efforts by a lot of people to 23 get these done, so -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Especially you, and 25 thank you very much. 89 1 MS. CAFFALL: You're welcome, but there's -- 2 if it weren't for the -- for Kerr County, I don't know that 3 I think we'd be here right now. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's probably true, 5 too. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Aw, shucks. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 8 comments? If not, I'd entertain a motion to approve the fee 9 schedule as presented. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Judge, I'm going to 12 recuse myself on this, since I'm one of the applicants 13 for -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll second -- 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- one of those 16 T-hangars. My name has been on the list since 1992, way 17 before I became a Commissioner. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll second that. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I will recuse myself 20 on that. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll note Commissioner 22 Griffin's recusal. Motion by Commissioner Letz, second by 23 Commissioner Williams, that the Court approve the fee 24 schedule for the Kerrville/Kerr County Airport T-hangars as 25 presented. Any further questions or comments? If not, all 90 1 in favor, raise your right hand. 2 (Commissioners Baldwin, Williams, and Letz voted in favor of the motion.) 3 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you, 7 Megan. Appreciate it. 8 MS. CAFFALL: Thank you. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: This concludes the business 10 of this morning. Before everyone leaves, each of us have to 11 sign the orders on the election boundaries. I have them 12 laid out here on the table. Please don't leave before you 13 sign -- there are five of them, and then we will reconvene 14 at 1:30 to take up the issue of the expansion or renovation 15 of the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center. Thank you very 16 much. See you at 1:30. 17 (Recess from 11:12 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. It's 1:30 in the 20 afternoon on Tuesday, October 9th. We'll call to order the 21 recessed meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. 22 The item for consideration is Item Number 21, consider and 23 discuss revised plan cost estimates and bonded timelines for 24 the proposed building project at Hill Country Youth 25 Exhibition Center, sponsored this afternoon by Commissioners 91 1 Williams and Letz. One of you guys take it and run with it. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, I'll start it and 3 let Bill give all the details. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Before you take off, I 5 want to clarify, make sure that the topic here -- it doesn't 6 look like there's any decision making. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: It can be decision making if 8 we want it to. It's posted "consider and discuss," so if we 9 want to make a decision on plans or timelines or anything 10 like that, we can. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Consider and discuss 12 revised plan. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know if we'll 14 get there. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know that we're 16 going to get that far. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's really on the 19 agenda -- the reason it's posted that way is to get 20 something in motion as to where we're going. I mean, we're 21 not -- I mean, it's not specific enough to say, "Let's do a 22 bond issue on this date," I don't think, but it's -- maybe 23 to start the motion in that direction, if that's, you know, 24 what the Court wants to do. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 92 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bill and I put this on 2 the agenda after we met with the Executive Board of the 3 Livestock Show Association last week, with the idea being 4 that a plan -- this is basically the same plan that the 5 Court looked at last time. We wanted their full board to 6 look at it, and if everyone is in agreement that this is the 7 plan that we're going to go forward with for our renovating 8 that facility, the next question is a timeline to try to 9 implement it. The -- there are two -- or there are a number 10 of election possible dates, but one that was kind of -- Bill 11 and I had talked about a little bit was a February 2nd date 12 as the date of the -- and the other date would be a May 13 date, logically, that we're going to do some sort of a bond 14 issue. And it was just really to try to pinpoint, one, is 15 the -- is the Court happy with this plan? And two, if they 16 are, where are we going to go with it? That's -- I mean, 17 they're two very basic questions. The stock -- the 18 Executive Board of the Livestock Show Association reviewed 19 it. They had, I believe, almost all of their membership 20 there. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nine there, I 22 believe. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or nine members. The -- 24 the Stock Show Association liked the plan, and the reason 25 for making that statement is there were some other -- or 93 1 some of the members of the Executive Board liked the plan, 2 but they had some concerns. I turn around, I see 3 Ms. Henderson. And, the concern was not that they didn't 4 like this plan. They were concerned that there -- that 5 somewhere in the County's long-range plan, that we didn't 6 overlook the small users' needs out there, and that we were 7 accommodating, either through a fee structure or on rentals 8 of the new configuration or redoing another facility out 9 there, being the -- the barn where the horse stalls is an 10 example of something else. But, just basically, they wanted 11 to be very certain that the Court was obligated, or was -- I 12 guess, the Court wanted to make sure -- or they wanted to 13 make sure that the Court looked after the small interests, 14 as well as the Stock Show Association, which is one of the 15 largest users of the facility. And I think, you know -- and 16 we -- that never had been discussed, really. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Could you just quickly 18 give me an example of what a small user might be? Or -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A -- 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sort of? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Say a member of the -- of 22 the community wanted to have a -- a bore goat sale, and 23 maybe have -- 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- you know, I don't 94 1 know, a hundred people may attend and there may be 20 2 exhibitors. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Something that would -- 5 certainly, you could never afford to rent the new arena as 6 configured here for that type of a show. It would never -- 7 I mean, the economics wouldn't work. They need something 8 that they can have a fairly small -- you know, usually 9 they're ag-related, but not all. Most of the ones I'm aware 10 of, ag use that facility more than anybody else. But, 11 they're -- I guess price range is probably something in the 12 $300 to $400 and $500 price range for a rental of a building 13 where they can, you know, have 100, 200 people maybe in a 14 sale or show or something of that nature. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Some of the events 16 that Becky's husband Rusty puts on might fall into that 17 category, too. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Some small roping 20 events, cutting events, some of those things. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the only reason I 22 really went off on a tangent on that is because that's 23 something we never have really discussed a great deal, 24 about, you know, that -- you know, the facility would 25 certainly accommodate that, but I think some of the members 95 1 of the community or, you know, Becky and some others that 2 were there -- Donald Gray was another one on the Executive 3 Board that said they were really a lot more gung-ho to 4 support it if they knew that their other interests were also 5 being protected, that there was a way that they could still 6 rent part of the facility for a very reasonable sum. 7 Because everyone clearly understands that if a new 8 facility -- or facility is renovated to accommodate what 9 we're planning here, the fees are going to up. I mean, it's 10 not going to be the same fee structure that we currently 11 have. And, I think most people that use the facility are 12 aware that a fee structure increase is probably going to 13 happen anyway, even just under the current facilities out 14 there. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And, in reviewing all 16 this with -- with those members of Executive Board, some of 17 whom are smaller users, one of the things we tried to point 18 out was one of the advantages of leaving the existing arena 19 essentially the way it is would provide a venue for small 20 events at a lesser cost than trying to put one of them in 21 the bigger one. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, that existing 23 arena, more or less as-is, with some repairs perhaps or 24 whatever, would accommodate most of those small users? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think so. 96 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It would, or the -- 2 the existing barn, which currently has, what, 78 or 80 3 stalls that the County now owns. That facility also could 4 accommodate smaller users or smaller events. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think what -- as I -- 6 the impression that -- Becky, correct me if this isn't 7 correct. It's not as much that the existing facility could 8 accommodate it, that we would -- it's more that we would 9 leave the fee structure -- 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- as it is right now for 12 that facility, as-is. That, you know, even though we're not 13 doing anything to it, they wouldn't want us to triple the 14 rates for that facility as it is right now to help pay for 15 everything else, essentially. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That should always be 17 a primary concern of taking care or allowing those -- those 18 people that have -- especially those families that have 19 built this operation, to allow them to -- you know, some way 20 and fee structure, is what you're talking about, to allow 21 them to continue to use it, for sure. I mean, that should 22 be a priority, in my opinion. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think that's true. We have 24 to recognize some economic realities. You know, if -- if 25 Eddie Holland wants to have his private goat sale out there 97 1 on Memorial Day weekend and pay $100 a day to use the 2 facility for three days, that's probably not going to work, 3 when someone else wanted to come in there and pay $5,000 or 4 $6,000 to use the facility. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, that's where you 6 and I are going to differ, though, on this whole thing. It 7 should be -- it should be primarily -- this whole thing 8 should be primarily for our local people. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The ones that have 11 been using it all these years. I respect what you're 12 saying. I just -- 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I agree, Buster. The point 14 I'm trying to make is, we set out a fee structure -- and 15 I've always been in favor of a fee structure that would 16 accommodate the users. My approach from -- from renovation 17 is we take care of our own first, and if we get any 18 increment out of that, that's fine. But we also expect from 19 them a certain amount of -- of realization of what the 20 economic realities are. Eddie would never expect to use the 21 facility on the prime weekend for the lower rate. But, both 22 sides have to recognize that. Maybe that has to be written 23 into the policy, that, you know, certain weekends or certain 24 weeks are blocked out for blockbusters. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: For blockbusters? 98 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: For blockbuster events. That 2 would pay a large portion of the freight out there, and the 3 rest of the time they'd be available for -- for the local 4 users. And, those are people we have to take care of, the 5 people we will take care of. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We could probably do 7 that somewhat with the fee structure, because you would set 8 it up beforehand that certain weekends or certain periods on 9 holidays, or perhaps -- I don't know what it is, but we'll 10 have a certain fee structure for certain parts of the 11 facility, and the rest of the time it would have a lower use 12 rate. I mean, that's a market-driven -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, it is. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- thing. And I would 15 think that there would be a lot more of the latter than the 16 former, because how many blockbuster -- if you take a 17 52-week year, how many blockbuster weeks are there? There's 18 certainly not half. I mean, it's something less. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Several. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: See, that's one of 21 the points we tried to make to the Executive Board, that -- 22 when they kept asking Jon and I if we could tell them what 23 the rate structure was going to be for the new arena or for 24 the exhibit hall or whatever, and the answer is obviously 25 no, we can't, not now. 'Cause we don't know what the 99 1 operational costs are going to be upon which you base that 2 type of thing. But that brings out, then, the point that, 3 well, you know, you can't design or build a facility that 4 totally cuts these folks out, and that's not our intention. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the other -- just 6 to put a few other things out on the table that we talked 7 about with the Executive Board, their support is contingent 8 on one thing that is in the works right now, which is a -- a 9 Memorandum of Understanding with the County as to the use of 10 the facility and protecting their interests, and that's been 11 brought up before the Court in a draft form probably nine 12 months ago. We discussed a few details of that the other 13 evening, and that will be on our agenda for the 24th meeting 14 to formally approve that. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: With the stock show? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The stock show. That 17 agreement, which sets -- you know, which basically protects 18 the stock show and their use of that facility, and also 19 recognizes those that built the facility. And the other 20 thing is -- and, based on that happening, the Executive 21 Board is going to take it to the full board of the -- of the 22 Stock Show Association towards the end of the month, after 23 the 24th, and, you know, get their full support. And, one 24 of the Executive Board members felt that this issue on 25 protecting the smaller user was going to be much more of a 100 1 -- an issue to the full Stock Show Association than the 2 Executive Board, so I think we need to have some kind of 3 a -- or be prepared to have some statement out at our 24th 4 meeting as to what our intent is on fee structure. I don't 5 think we can go any further than that at this point, but I 6 think a statement, just a -- you know, we are trying to -- 7 or recognize the importance of protecting the smaller users 8 and giving them a venue. And it may be, like Bill said, 9 where the horse stalls currently are, upgrading that a 10 little bit and giving a facility that's economical to rent. 11 Doesn't have to be a climate-controlled facility. 12 That's kind of where we left that meeting, 13 and I think they were all -- you know, they liked the plan. 14 I mean, there were some comments on whether you should 15 switch some things or do some tweaking and whether we 16 should -- you know, but they were more architectural design 17 things, such as should the breakout rooms be on the side of 18 the building and leave the back of the building open for 19 receiving and stuff like that. But those are issues that -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Moving cattle or 21 stock from one building to another. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How you move animals 23 around. And, a lot of those issues don't affect square 24 footage or cost. It's just a matter of how they're actually 25 drawn up. And, I think that if we ever do get to the point 101 1 of going forward with a bond issue and it passes, we 2 certainly would want the input of the Stock Show Association 3 into the design elements as to how to configure certain 4 aspects of the facility. And, you know, that's getting back 5 to the purpose of putting this on the agenda. Is the Court 6 happy with the design? That's the first issue. And, if 7 they are, then where -- what we do about that and where we 8 go. And, just to go over the -- I guess everyone on the 9 Court has a copy of it, but as I mentioned, anyway, what the 10 design actually is, is that you leave the existing arena 11 where it is; you build a new arena which is larger, with 12 about 3,500 seats, on the east side of the existing arena, 13 and then on the west side, you would tear down the current 14 exhibit hall and build a new exhibit hall which would have 15 approximately 20,000 square feet. That would be the exhibit 16 hall and the new arena. Each is recommended to be 17 climate-controlled, but that's an issue of what it would 18 cost. The currently -- current existing arena would not be 19 climate-controlled, as I understand the plans. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jon, I can't 21 remember -- I know we discussed this earlier, but what -- 22 where are the existing hog pens? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Behind the -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're behind -- on this 25 plan? They're behind the building labeled the Exhibit Hall. 102 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They're just not drawn 2 in? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, 'cause they will be 4 gone. They be will be torn out. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They'll be removed, 6 and hogs will be repositioned somewhere in the new 7 configuration. The existing pens will go. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Existing hog pens would 9 go. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, that area will 11 just be cleaned out -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: From -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- and they will be 14 moved to another location here somewhere? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They will be -- temporary 16 pens would be used to replace them for stock show events, 17 and the temporary pens would either be in the existing arena 18 or in the new arena. And the Stock Show Association, they 19 went through and calculated square foot -- square footage 20 and amount of pens they have now and animal numbers, and 21 they are satisfied that they are getting a fairly 22 substantial increase in area for livestock during a stock 23 show situation. And, those -- these plans do not have any 24 animals during the stock show in the exhibit hall. That may 25 be used, you know, -- you know, may or may not be used for 103 1 part of the event, but animals will not be housed in there. 2 And, it -- you know, it has the actual design aspects of it 3 where you can put the show ring and some of that -- I mean 4 the auction ring and things of that nature, whether it's in 5 the exhibit hall or in the arena. We'll decide that, you 6 know, at a future date. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two elements -- two 8 elements of this design I don't think we came to grips with 9 -- and I don't know if everybody's all on the same page with 10 respect to this basic design on Phase I that you have in 11 your book, but two things we didn't totally agree upon 12 before had to do with two major elements, and they both 13 really are in the big arena, the new arena. Whether or not 14 to have a concrete floor over which you put dirt, and move 15 dirt in and out as needed, and/or whether or not to 16 climate-control the big arena. And, those two elements we 17 have to agree upon, or not agree upon. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: I would like to see the area 19 behind the exhibit hall covered. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Covered? 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Covered. A concrete floor 22 and a roof, pole roof. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a possibility. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Because I think, then, that 25 adds space. If you need more pen space, then you've got 104 1 covered space where you could put pens. If you have an 2 event in the exhibit hall that needs exhibit space, you 3 don't encumber the other two arenas for exhibit space. I'm 4 talking very simple. A concrete floor with a roof over it. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Coming from the existing 6 arena, I mean, just over and up on the side, kind of? 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Just kind of squared off. 8 Just kind of squared off like that. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That could certainly 10 be done. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: To me, that adds capability, 12 because you put more under a roof. I'm not talking about 13 climate control. I'm talking about just a concrete floor, 14 run some electrical work in there so you can have some 15 electrical outlets throughout the facility, and a roof. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sized -- 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: And that's it. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sized to accommodate 19 what? Maybe the same size as the area that the existing 20 pens cover? 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'd just -- I'd just square 22 it off, is what I would do. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not sized to any 24 particular needs? 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Not sized to any particular 105 1 need. Just square it off. 'Cause I think that -- 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Is this a walled 3 building that you're envisioning? 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, just a roof and a 5 concrete floor. Basically a pole barn with a concrete 6 floor. Because I think then you can use it for -- for many, 7 many, many different things. It has the capability for a 8 livestock show, it has the capability for a trade show or 9 anything else like that. You could have an outdoor dance in 10 there if you wanted to on the concrete floor. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would probably 12 be less costly than one of those 200-stall barns that were 13 in some of our earlier drawings. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it shouldn't add 16 that much cost, and it's, you know, a good idea. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Basically, this design -- 19 I mean, it's -- in my opinion, we're not -- not a luxurious 20 design. It's a basic design. It meets their needs of the 21 Stock Show Association and the County. It doesn't -- you 22 know, in reality, we're adding, square footage-wise, an 23 arena; we're tearing down an old exhibit hall and building a 24 new exhibit hall. Square footage-wise, we're adding some 25 mass, but it's basically the same function, and we're adding 106 1 an arena which is needed for a lot of different events and 2 everything. And -- and that arena provides the additional 3 square footage for the stock show. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: What did the stock show 5 people think about climate control in the new arena? Did 6 they have an opinion on -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They thought -- their 8 view was climate control it, and dirt floor. Those were 9 their -- to prioritize those, to them, that was far more 10 important to have the climate control. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That seems to be what 12 I'm hearing from people when we ask the question. Climate 13 control, but don't put the concrete floor in. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Bill and I made a trip up to 15 Glen Rose to look at their facility, which is very 16 comparable in design and use to what ours is, and I was real 17 reluctant on the climate control, but I think I've come to 18 the opinion that it probably adds value. Concrete floor, to 19 me, adds cost. They were telling us that they probably had 20 one event a year that they had to have just a concrete floor 21 for, but they had to take all the dirt out at least once 22 every two years and change it over. So, I mean, you add an 23 expense with the concrete floor, and essentially you have to 24 have equipment and personnel to move the -- the dirt in and 25 out, but you didn't necessarily add any flexibility to your 107 1 facility use. So, I think, you know, as far as that issue 2 is concerned, I'd go with exactly what Jonathan has laid 3 out, with climate control as the priority, and a dirt floor, 4 and if we ever decide we want a concrete floor, we can go 5 back in and lay it. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The other issue that we 7 talked about -- 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Excuse me just a 9 second. On that point, before we go beyond that, is there 10 anything -- I don't know what the state of the art is in 11 exhibit arenas, but is there any way to put -- maybe not the 12 whole thing, but to put any kind of temporary flooring over 13 dirt? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, you can buy a temporary 16 floor that goes down in sections. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: In case you want to 18 have an event in there where you were going to have people 19 actually walking on stage, graduating or something of that 20 sort. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When Fred and I went 22 to Glen Rose, I posed the question to the gentleman who's 23 been involved in a lot of arenas, but has run that one since 24 its inception, and ran the facility up in Hill County, I 25 believe, the actual center they have up on I-35. I said, 108 1 "If you were in our shoes and you had to make a decision and 2 could only have one item of two, climate control in the big 3 arena or a concrete floor over which you put dirt for 4 events, which would you select?" And he said -- without 5 hesitation, he said, I'd select the climate control, because 6 otherwise you limit your utilization, whereas if you have 7 just a dirt floor without any concrete underneath it, there 8 are ways to utilize that for many events that you can't even 9 think about right now. You can -- you can stabilize it and 10 use it for a lot of things without the necessity of having 11 concrete underneath it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The other comments were 13 we talked about -- there's been frequent discussion about 14 the dirt in the current hog pens, as to the status of it, 15 and I -- there are two veterinarians on the Executive Board, 16 Dr. Leifeste and Dr. Dittmar. And, I asked -- we brought up 17 that question, because I get asked it, and their answer is, 18 it's better than it was 15 years ago when they figured out a 19 way to get most of the dirt out and replace it. It is 20 contaminated, in their opinion, but it's not been tested to 21 the state that it's contaminated. But, they know from 22 their -- just from their professions that there are problems 23 with animals that stay back in that area, and they think a 24 lot of the problems are really related to molds and mildews 25 that are inherent in the soils, as opposed to pathogens. 109 1 So, anyway, that's kind of, you know, where that story is. 2 You know, their professional opinion is it's contaminated, 3 but they don't have proof that it's ever been tested, per 4 se. But, there are -- it's more of a mold problem, which 5 could be -- and that could just be the nature of that 6 building, and -- and a lot of that comes with the nature of 7 those pens. We never thought, I guess, when they built it 8 that that would be a problem, but these are permanent pens. 9 With temporary pens, you can move the dirt around and take 10 better care of it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know why they 12 don't have the dirt tested and let's gets over this 13 conversation. Why -- why have they not? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They say what they do is, 15 they spray a -- a chemical down every year which gets it 16 okay. It says it's okay, so it tests okay after they put 17 the chemical down. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Maybe it's one of those 19 questions you don't want to know the answer to. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably so. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: The answer may dictate what 24 you have to do and what you can't do. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That could be true, also. 110 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I take you to the 2 -- your number page, please? It just -- I'm not -- I don't 3 think I'm understanding everything I'm reading here. The 4 top set of numbers, proposed probable cost reduction, delete 5 Arena Number 2. Now, is that out of -- is that talking 6 about deleting it out of the original plan? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. And that's -- 9 and that's the same, I guess, with -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All the -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- all these items? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: From the original 13 master plan. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's kind of confusing, 16 but I guess the only way I can explain the way it was done 17 is that the -- we hired Quorum and Associates to do a set 18 function for us, you know, which was a master plan, and they 19 did it. And we've come back and asked them to do several 20 other reiterations of that, and they're doing it without any 21 pay, so they're doing it the easiest way for them, which may 22 not be the easiest way to read for us, but it's -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand it now. 24 I see. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Puts and takes from 111 1 the -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Off the original plan. 3 We're reducing the original plan by $2.5 million. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I personally -- 5 personally, I think it is an absolutely fantastic plan. I 6 like the -- I'm not a real big fan of this 3,500-seat arena; 7 I don't -- I don't see that ever being used. But, you know, 8 I'm kind of a nearsighted guy sometimes. I understand that. 9 But I do like the new exhibit hall and dressing up the 10 existing arena some and those kinds of things. But, the big 11 question, again, is -- is the funding of the whole 12 operation. And I -- again, the way I see it, what we're 13 doing here is creating some economic development, which is 14 wonderful and great, although we should not be in that 15 business, in my opinion. But, I -- I still think that the 16 City -- you know, we've talked about -- we've talked about 17 bringing in big venues and different kinds of venues, and 18 everybody in town's talking about it's a great thing because 19 we'll fill up our hotel rooms and restaurants and everybody 20 goes to H.E.B. and all that, and the money changes hands 21 seven times before it leaves our community and all that 22 talk. 23 The thing is, all those hotels and motel 24 rooms are -- are inside the city of Kerrville, and most of 25 the restaurants are inside the city of Kerrville. So, the 112 1 beneficiary of the economic development of the whole thing 2 is the city of Kerrville. So, in my nearsightedness, I 3 can't see why the City of Kerrville doesn't participate in 4 the cost of it. And I know you guys have talked to the 5 economic development -- what's -- E.I.C. -- the E.I.C. 6 group, and they don't seem to want to participate, but I 7 don't see -- I just don't understand, and I can't get my 8 mind around the thought of them not participating. I don't 9 get it, and you're never going to convince me that they 10 should not participate in it. And, personally, I think that 11 we should invite the City over here to have one of our 12 pow-wows, and them say to the Commissioners Court and all 13 the public of Kerr County, "We don't want to participate 14 because of this, this, and this and this." You know, we 15 call that accountability where I come from. That's number 16 one. 17 And, number two, a bond issue so close on the 18 tail of the tax increase, I would -- I don't know what to 19 say to you. I'm risking here offending someone, but that 20 just -- I see that it's foolishness, because, you know, I 21 predict that your bond will be defeated, and then -- then it 22 is really going to be difficult to get it back up on the 23 table for another go. You're going to turn -- you'll -- the 24 attitude of the people will be, "Uh-oh, here comes another 25 independent school district action." You know, we told them 113 1 one time, and we're bringing it back again. I mean, I just 2 have those kind of fears, and this being this close -- we 3 raised taxes a month ago for the first time in many years, 4 and there are some folks out there angry about that. I 5 don't know if y'all run into them or not. I do. And -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me take a whack 7 at what you said, Buster. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, do. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And you're not alone 10 on that page about city participation. You're really not. 11 There are a lot of folks who really believe that if there's 12 ever a project that emanated from one source or the other, 13 this is a project that both governmental bodies should and 14 could buy into, so you're not alone on that page. That was 15 directed to us the other night, as well. And, the only 16 response that Jonathan and I had the other night at 17 executive committee was that we'll keep trying. They -- 18 that we weren't turned down by the Economic Improvement 19 Corporation for its one-half cent sales tax funding. We 20 were told to get our ducks lined up with a plan that we all 21 bought into and were willing to support, and then come back 22 and see them. I think we can -- we can make -- and they 23 should understand the strong argument that the economic 24 impact that is generated by a new facility, just as it is 25 generated by the current facility, but in a lot -- lot 114 1 smaller scale, benefits, for the most part, the inkeepers 2 and the shopkeepers and the restaurateurs inside the city of 3 Kerrville. I don't -- I don't know anybody in his right 4 mind could argue that it's true. 5 And, if we build this facility and it lives 6 up to its potential, even half up to its potential, that 7 economic impact stands to be eight-fold over what it is now, 8 if it only gains half of its potential. So, I think, you 9 know, if -- if it's Commissioner Letz or I or you or 10 whomever of us makes a second appearance before the E.I.C., 11 I think we have strong arguments to say, you know, if 12 your -- if your ball game is economic impact or economic 13 development, then let us tell you about this one more time, 14 and listen to us carefully because it truly is something 15 that generates business for Kerrville and Kerr County, but 16 Kerrville more directly than Kerr County as a whole. 17 The second part of your -- your comments are 18 also well received because, for a lot of reasons, not the 19 least of which is what's happening in America today, if we 20 go to a bond issue in February -- I'm not convinced that's 21 the right date, number one. I'm convinced that next year, 22 maybe the second available election date would give us a 23 better opportunity to evaluate the sense of America right 24 now, which Kerr County very much is a part. And people 25 right now are a tad uneasy about what's happening, 'cause we 115 1 don't know. We don't know what's happening. The President 2 and all of his cabinet and all the financial gurus in 3 America say, you know, let's get back to business as usual 4 and make -- make our economy blossom again, and it may very 5 well do that. Christmas holidays coming up may be a 6 catalyst for that; we don't know. But, I think we have to 7 look at this very carefully. I really do. I agree with 8 you. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I appreciate 10 your openness and honesty, and we are saying exactly the 11 same thing, except for one -- one little issue in there. 12 Instead of us going over and making a pitch to E.I.C., I 13 think that we need to invite them to this room, or them and 14 the City Council, or the City Council itself to come to our 15 place and have a discussion in front of the general public. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have no objection at 17 all to what Commissioner Baldwin or Commissioner Williams is 18 saying. I mean, I think the -- the sense that I got from 19 E.I.C. and from all the City Council members that I visited 20 with wasn't as much that they are saying no, they're not 21 going to participate. It's that they want the County to get 22 a plan. And, it sounds like we have a plan for the first 23 time. Before, we had a concept of going out there for some 24 sort of a large construction project. This is a specific 25 plan, and I think once we get a specific plan, we need to go 116 1 back to the City Council. We need to go -- and I agree with 2 Buster. I think we go to them first, and if they think we 3 should go to E.I.C., we go to the E.I.C. But, E.I.C. I look 4 at as being under City Council, which they are; they're 5 appointed by them. So, we do invite the City over to look 6 at this and see what their impact is, and then also, you 7 know, that we have -- if there is a plan that the Court -- 8 whole Court is behind, you also can go out for grants. It 9 gives us a vehicle. 10 Up until now, it's just been talk, and that's 11 what the -- really, the purpose of today's meeting is, is to 12 say, "Is everybody happy with this plan?" And, if it is, 13 then we talk to the City, you know, if that's what we think 14 we should do. We go out for grants if that's what we think 15 we should do, and we set a rough timetable. I said -- when 16 I brought up the February election date, that was a -- 17 that's the next election date, and the timing of it was good 18 from the standpoint of stock show. It could be a year from 19 February. I mean, I'm not married to any specific date. I 20 think the longer we wait -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The higher the cost. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the costs go up and 23 everything else, but at the same time, I also agree with 24 Commissioner Baldwin. We do not want to put up a plan that 25 fails for any reason, 'cause if it does fail, you do run the 117 1 risk of -- of a much higher hurdle the next time you put 2 something similar up. So, whether we do it, you know, in 3 February, May, November, or next February, a year from 4 February, doesn't make that much difference to me. My main 5 goal is to get a plan and get moving towards that plan. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Part of having a 7 plan, I think, by definition of those who listen to us when 8 we make these various presentations, is knowing in our minds 9 how we would fund this absent any other revenue sources. 10 And, up until very recently, we haven't said directly we 11 would entertain a bond issue. We've played around with bed 12 tax and we played around with this, we played around with 13 that, and finally we got around to saying, well, if it's 14 going to happen, it's going to happen 'cause the people of 15 Kerr County voted it to happen. And that's part of a plan, 16 and that's one of the elements we didn't have to be able to 17 present to them the last time we went. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- you 19 know, if -- you know, if the Court agrees and votes that the 20 way that it will be funded would be through a bond issue, 21 you reduce whatever that bond issue is by the amount of 22 other money you get. Like, if we -- if it's a $5.5 million 23 project and we can get a million dollars in grants and a 24 million dollars from E.I.C., well, then it becomes a 25 $3.5 million bond issue. 118 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you're saying 2 right there -- you're saying that we need to move forward 3 with a bond election, not knowing what everybody else is 4 going to -- 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: After. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: After. I think you -- 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Do the bond issue 8 last. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You do the bond issue 10 last. You can adjust the amount last, but you have to have 11 a defined enough plan that you can go forward and say, "Here 12 it is," and, "We think it's going to cost $5.5 million with 13 the, you know, inflation adjustments," based on how long in 14 the future you have to push it. And you go to them and they 15 say, "How are you going to pay for it?" Well, it will be a 16 bond issue, but we hope to have grants to make -- to 17 minimize the amount of the bond issue, or we do everything 18 we can to do that. And, if we get the City to come on board 19 independent of the E.I.C., well, then, you know, you work 20 that part of the plan. But everyone always asks what the 21 funding plan is, and the funding plan is a bond issue that 22 we have, 'cause that's the only thing we control. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, the -- I guess the 25 sense, from that I'm hearing, on the Court is the earliest 119 1 bond date to really push would be a May date. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think we have 3 more time to analyze the events -- the current events and 4 the impact of those events by May. I guess the issue before 5 us is, is the Court willing to schedule a bond issue at a 6 date to be determined? You know, that's really the issue. 7 I think it could be any date you want to set it, as long as 8 it's a uniform election date. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Let me ask a couple 10 questions. One is, how much confidence at this point do we 11 have in these figures? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much what, Larry? 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: How much confidence do 14 we have in these cost numbers? Before we could go as far as 15 a bond issue, and perhaps even before going for some grants, 16 we would really need a number that we can sign up to, and 17 that seems like probably the next step after -- after a 18 master plan approach. Somebody's going to have to really 19 set down and do a design and cost it. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That -- it would seem 22 to me that that's sort of a -- no matter what the funding 23 mechanism is, that's sort of the next step, would be to -- 24 if we -- if we like the design, irrespective of cost, if we 25 say, okay, that's it, Phase I, and we say, you know, we've 120 1 got to go cost that plan to the next level of granularity so 2 that we can really have a number that we can feel confident 3 that we can go build it with, okay? So, it would seem that, 4 as you and Jonathan both have said, that if -- today, if we 5 could agree that this is what we would like to go for, not 6 addressing the costing and the funding sources at this 7 point, but if that's what we want to go for, we need to get 8 real cost numbers on that. Then I think we can all agree, 9 or at least I don't know of another funding mechanism in 10 the -- that the County has other than a bonding issue. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: I would say that the numbers 12 we have are pretty good numbers, without somebody actually 13 going -- 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- and rooting out costs. 16 Bill Blankenship did the plan, did the numbers. He has a 17 lot of experience in exactly this type of construction, 18 knows what he's doing, and he has -- I would say that those 19 costs for -- you know, for when they were put forward, were 20 probably plus or minus 10 percent. We can count on those. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And that's good enough 22 for now. I'm just saying that it seems, before we could 23 commit to a bond number, though, we'd have to know -- 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'd need a much tighter 25 number before we go with a bond, just like with the radio 121 1 project. We started with half a million, we went to a 2 million and a half. We hit upon a million as the budgeting 3 vehicle, and they were bringing it in at a little less. 4 But, once we got up on that million, we had a number we 5 could -- we could hang our hat on, and that's the same 6 process we'll have to go through with this exercise. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, for today's 8 discussion, I would think this is about where we can 9 realistically go as far as the time, I think. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And this is way less 12 than what we talked about in the master plan. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If all the phases had 15 been executed. I think that's really realistic. The other 16 question about how do we fund it, I don't know of any other 17 mechanism, as far as the County is concerned. We obviously 18 would go for maximum grant money, participation by the City, 19 anybody else that we can think of to tap, but I don't know 20 of any way we could raise the kind of money we're talking 21 about other than a bond issue. So, I think those two 22 things, the design and the fact that at some point there 23 would be a bond election -- and I think that's just T.B.D. 24 I wouldn't say next -- in my mind, I wouldn't say it would 25 be next February or May, but as soon as we can, as soon as 122 1 it's reasonable to do that. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. To be 3 determined. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And, if we get into it 5 and find out that, hey, there's no way we -- the tea leaves 6 say that a bond election wouldn't pass, then we regroup 7 again and say, what do we do? But, I think that's about the 8 only path we can go down right now. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Should we, on the cost 10 issue, go back to Bill Blankenship -- and I really don't 11 think that it's appropriate for us to ask him to do any more 12 work without compensating him for it -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't, either. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- at this point, but to 15 give us a cost -- I guess a price breakdown of this 16 facility, and in a format that's more understandable than 17 starting at 7 and a half million and start to deduct things 18 to get to this? 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Instead of the puts 20 and takes, a real cost. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd like to see that, 22 and adding this component that Fred mentioned, which is a 23 concrete slab. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fred's Dance Hall. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's it. 123 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: That sounds good. Can I have 2 a concession? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. And, we can 4 get him to do that. What it might take, I'm not sure -- the 5 Judge can correct me if I'm wrong -- would be for us to take 6 a look at his contract and revisit it, and -- and put in an 7 addendum for just a modest amount of additional work. We 8 already have one with him to do what he's done, but he has 9 gone well and above and beyond that, pro bono. So, if the 10 Court's of a mind to do that -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we could also ask him 12 to relook at the cost figures to make sure he's confident. 13 I mean, a lot of time has passed. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think we ought to ask him 15 to go just a little step further, which is not just the 16 cost, but also to do us some drawings, or whatever we need 17 to take to the City, or to show the City when they come over 18 here. I'm not talking about construction drawings. I'm not 19 talking about elaborate models. I'm just talking about 20 something that we feel comfortable in using as a basis for 21 the presentation. Might as well get that done at the same 22 time. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So then we could -- I 24 guess where we go from here, then, we will -- Bill, who's 25 been talking to Mr. Blankenship the most, will get with him 124 1 and get an idea what that fee would be, get the paperwork 2 done, bring it back on the 24th to authorize that, and as 3 soon as we receive that, invite the City over. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sounds good. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sounds like a plan to 6 me. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think a bond election is 8 the only way to do this, because we have to get the 9 citizens' write-off on this; it's a big piece of change. 10 And, to me, it's not economic development. To me, it's 11 enhancing what we do here in Kerr County, and the ability of 12 our citizens to do what they do here. To me, that's -- 13 that's what we're doing. It's not economic development. 14 It's not something that's grounded in wishful thinking, that 15 somehow it will result in megabucks for anybody. That may 16 have been where we started out with the master plan, but 17 I've ground myself back down to reality. What I'm doing is 18 taking care of the people of Kerr County who built this 19 facility and have come to rely upon it, so I'm ready to go 20 to the voters. I'll work my tail off to explain it to them 21 and give them the information they need to make a decision. 22 If the voters would happen to turn down a 23 bond election, then the problem we would have would be, what 24 do we do next? Do we spend the quarter of a million dollars 25 to renovate? Not to bring it -- make it nicer, but just to 125 1 renovate it to where it is now, and continue to lose 2 $200,000 to $300,000 a year, or where do we go from that? 3 'Cause we're really at a crossroads, and what brought this 4 to our attention was the work that Glenn and Mike Smart did 5 out at the Ag Barn and bringing to our attention the state 6 of the facility out there, which we all kind of intuitively 7 knew from being out there, but we never really knew exactly 8 the extent of the problems. So, we are at a crossroads here 9 where we have to decide what we're going to do with that 10 facility. And, to me, the only logical thing is to invest 11 the time and energy to enhance it for its current and future 12 use. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think the point you 14 make is a very good one, is that the options to do this plan 15 or something very close to it is not to do nothing. We 16 don't have the option to do nothing, because the place is 17 falling apart, so we've got to do something. So, we don't 18 have an option of doing something or not doing something. 19 We've got -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think -- 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's what do we do? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- we have to keep in 23 mind -- I was just going to add a thought to what Fred was 24 saying, too. One of our prime concerns is the Hill Country 25 Junior District Livestock Show. It's maxed out. It has 126 1 plenty of room to grow, but it's maxed out. It's been maxed 2 out for the last two or three years, in terms of number of 3 animals and entries that it can handle, so that's another 4 limiting factor in terms of doing nothing. We're limiting 5 them, as well. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we want to vote to 8 formally adopt this as the plan? Do we need to do that? Do 9 you want to wait till the 22nd? I know you've been saying 10 24th, but we're all screwed up because we're meeting today; 11 it's Tuesday and not Monday, so the next meeting is actually 12 the 22nd. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I'd probably 14 rather wait till we get the new drawings from 15 Mr. Blankenship, have that be the plan with the numbers and 16 that. Otherwise, we're going to be -- 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 'Cause it's going to 18 change. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Going to change some. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Some. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A few adjustments. And I 22 think that at that point we would adopt it as a Court, and 23 then, you know, get with the City. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think I'll get in 127 1 touch with him this afternoon. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Anyone have 3 anything else they want to offer on this? It's -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Becky, did I correctly 5 state the opinion of the Executive Board? 6 MS. HENDERSON: Yeah. The Executive Board, 7 yes. But, you have to -- I have three hats; I'm a Kerr 8 County taxpayer, I'm on the Executive Board, plus I have an 9 interest in small -- you know, renting it out there. So, I 10 have a lot of, you know, pros and cons against it, and it 11 would probably be better if I didn't -- if I waited until I 12 have more time to think about it and then present to you, 13 you know, what I'd like to talk to y'all about. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'd like to hear from you, 15 but I think what you need to remember, in talking to the 16 other Executive Board members, is the facility as it 17 currently exists is barely functional. 18 MS. HENDERSON: Oh, I agree. And -- 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: And so -- 20 MS. HENDERSON: -- I have a problem with 21 that. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: We're trying to make the 23 decision, what do we do with that? We can bandaid it for a 24 quarter of a million dollars, but that doesn't add capacity 25 to the Junior District Livestock Show. That doesn't make it 128 1 prettier, doesn't get us a decent kitchen, and we'll only 2 continue to slide if we take that route. If we take that 3 route, we will eventually start to shut it down, because we 4 can't afford to lose the kind of money we're losing now. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The Executive Board was 6 unanimous, including Becky -- 7 MS. HENDERSON: If you remember, they voted 8 while I was downstairs, Jonathan. If you'll remember, I 9 went down to make a phone call, and when I came up, they'd 10 already voted, so that's a sore subject right now. But -- 11 and you're right. I mean, the Executive Board mainly was 12 all for it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're all -- the 14 Executive Board was all for the plan, wearing their 15 Executive Board hat. The questions came -- 16 MS. HENDERSON: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- when they were wearing 18 their other hats, I think. Right, Becky? With the -- 19 MS. HENDERSON: Exactly. It's right for 20 stock show, but as a Kerr County taxpayer and as a -- using 21 it -- you know, we rent it 13 -- 12 to 14 times a year, and 22 do you realize how much it will cost to rent that big arena 23 with climate control? I mean, do you know what Glen Rose 24 charges a day to rent that? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I do know, but I don't 129 1 know it off the top of my -- I've got it in my office. 2 MS. HENDERSON: I don't know what Glen Rose 3 does, but I know what Amarillo does. It's 2,500 -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They have a smaller 5 arena also, so they don't have to put a small user in the 6 big arena and turn the -- 7 MS. HENDERSON: And you're right. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How much? 9 MS. HENDERSON: Well, Amarillo charges $2,500 10 a day. All I'm saying is, the big arena is mainly going to 11 be for an arena. If it's all going to be dirt, you're going 12 to have to have four things in there, and you're going to 13 have to rent that an awful lot to pay for it, and that's my 14 main concern. We're going to try -- we're going to stay in 15 the small one; there's no way we could go to the big one. 16 And I don't know about the other people, but you're going to 17 have to rent that an awful lot to pay for -- for the 18 building. And you may be able to rent it for a lot cheaper 19 than that, I don't know, but that -- that's my main concern, 20 mainly as a taxpayer and mainly as -- as far as on the 21 Executive Board, it's great. I mean, for the -- for the 22 livestock show, but you've got to remember, they're only out 23 there one week a year. And, it's great for them, but my 24 other concern is for -- you know, we rent it 14 times a 25 year, and we could never rent the big one, especially with 130 1 climate control. And you might -- and you might want to 2 think of another way to be able to take the dirt out, 3 because you're going to have to be able to have other things 4 in there besides horse -- you've got to be able to have 5 conferences or whatever, because I'm telling you, horse 6 people will not fill it up. They cannot pay that amount of 7 money to do it. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's designed to 9 accommodate most any kind of event you want to put in it. 10 MS. HENDERSON: Well, if you just have a dirt 11 floor, though, are you going to be able -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: From what we're told, 13 yes. You can use it for many things. There may be some 14 things you can't use it for. 15 MS. HENDERSON: I mean, you might. I don't 16 know. I just know they kept saying arena, arena, arena. 17 And, as an arena, I don't know -- there's other people that 18 have horse things out there, too, and they may be able to 19 afford it, I don't know. But I know that we take up 14 20 weekends a year, and hopefully we'll be able to keep doing 21 that in the smaller one. As a -- you know, as a Kerr County 22 taxpayer, I don't want to have to take my business to 23 Fredericksburg and rent theirs because I can't afford to 24 rent the one here. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: But is it -- you know, just 131 1 to pursue this just a little bit, how much of a deficit, as 2 a Kerr County taxpayer, are you willing to pay for the 3 facility? Right now, we lose about a quarter of a million 4 dollars a year on the facility when you compare the expenses 5 versus the revenue. How much of that are you willing to 6 support? 7 MS. HENDERSON: I -- first, I have a rough 8 time -- how do you lose all that money on the facility? I 9 mean, I don't understand that. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, it's just the 11 numbers -- we budgeted $32,000 in revenue this year from the 12 facility. It costs us about $230,000 to $250,000 a year in 13 maintenance and expense and personnel to operate the 14 facility, so you're losing somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 $225,000 to $250,000 a year to have it open year-round. 16 MS. HENDERSON: Right. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: And that's a number that a 18 lot of taxpayers don't realize. That's already happening. 19 MS. HENDERSON: No, and we don't. I mean, 20 it's hard for me to imagine losing that much. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't make -- 22 MS. HENDERSON: Something just doesn't 23 seem -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't cover utilities 25 out there. 132 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: And part of the reason for 2 that is that the condition of the facility is such you can't 3 charge somebody -- 4 MS. HENDERSON: But if you build this big 5 arena, it's going to -- do you realize how much it's going 6 to -- how often you're going to have to fill it? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think one of the things 8 is, you know -- and this is -- we need to get this from 9 Bill. If you look at the square footage of that arena, it 10 is not that much more to make it in arena form versus pole 11 barn form. So, I mean, you're paying -- you know, it's not 12 a substantial -- you know, if you're going to add the square 13 footage, it doesn't cost too much more to go to an arena 14 format, where you have much more versatility. If you 15 don't -- I mean, we need the square footage, so I mean -- 16 MS. HENDERSON: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Whether you build an 18 arena or not, you know, you need to -- at 25,000 or 30,000, 19 40,000 square feet or whatever that arena is, you need to 20 add that much square footage, so then the difference is 21 between what a pole barn would be that no one could use for 22 any kind of show, other than the exhibit space, versus from 23 there to the arena, 'cause you have to have the square 24 footage. 25 MS. HENDERSON: Right, and I understand that. 133 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So that's really the 2 issue, is that increment, because it's not -- it's either 3 that or the stock show has to be cut back. 4 MS. HENDERSON: And I agree, there needs to 5 be more. I just -- you know, I'm trying to -- there's three 6 different ways I'm trying to look at it. One way says it's 7 great, one way says forget it, and, you know, the other one 8 says, well, I like the existing, but it needs lots of 9 improvements. Which, you're right, it is falling down and 10 it needs a lot of improvements, but I'm just not sure that 11 the answer is this full-fledged, climate-controlled, 12 3,500-seat arena, that we're calling an arena. You've got 13 to fill it with events. And I'm just not sure that there's 14 enough horse events out there, or even other things. If 15 it's just a dirt floor, there's not a whole lot you can have 16 with just a dirt floor. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That was the reason 18 for my question, because I understand the state of the art 19 is that there are -- there's now things you can put on top 20 of dirt. 21 MS. HENDERSON: Yes, there -- and there are, 22 and you'd have to be able to -- you'd have to be able to do 23 something to fill it. I mean, I personally -- and I'm just 24 speaking from being out -- you know, I'm out there a whole 25 lot, just from -- from leasing it. 134 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You think mud 2 wrestling might draw a crowd? 3 MS. HENDERSON: It might, you know. Might be 4 something. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner mud wrestling. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In Fred's barn. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the reason I asked 8 Becky, I knew she would -- I was pretty certain she was 9 going to say what she just said. 10 MS. HENDERSON: He knew I was just waiting. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the -- and the reason 12 for that is what -- and we received it from other members of 13 the Executive Board; Donald Gray basically said the exact 14 same thing, 'cause he uses the facility and -- you know. 15 But that is the -- those are the types of questions that 16 we're going to be hit with, and I think we need to be aware 17 of that and need to be able to answer them. 18 MS. HENDERSON: And you're right, people are 19 asking us those questions now. One question that they're 20 asking us is if -- if they build that, are you going to be 21 able to move all your stuff over to that other arena, 'cause 22 you rent it so often. My answer is no, we can't. Well, 23 then who is, if you can't? See, that's the question they're 24 asking me. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's something I 135 1 think we can get from Bill, is, you know, based -- what 2 would this arena, you know, based on other facilities around 3 the state, rent for? What could we expect that rate to be? 4 'Cause a lot of people have asked that. And, that -- if 5 it's climate-controlled and if it's not climate-controlled. 6 I mean, I think we need to be able to answer as many of 7 these questions that come up, and as to what the different 8 incremental cost between the pole barn versus the arena is. 9 We need -- 10 MS. HENDERSON: I think most people 11 understand that y'all can't answer that, you know, with a 12 set figure, if it's going to cost you $1,500 to rent that 13 one, if it's going to cost you $500. They know you can't 14 answer that, but we just need to know a little -- you know, 15 we know what we're paying now. If that big arena's not 16 filled, are you going to triple what we're paying for the 17 small one? That's what we need to know, personally. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Speaking of venues, I 19 think the -- the fanciest -- the most elite that I ever see 20 out there are the cutting horse people. I mean, those guys 21 are driving up, you know, in their tandem trailer things 22 with bedrooms in their trucks. 23 MS. HENDERSON: They're houses. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I am not exaggerating. 25 Those guys are -- it's unbelievable what I'm seeing out 136 1 there now. But they don't put 3,500 people in the stands to 2 watch them perform. They don't put five. They're all on 3 their horses, you know. So, you're going to have to get 4 into rock concerts, Bill. That's all there is to it. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I reckon so. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's another issue. 7 You look at incremental costs, maybe, of 2,500 versus 3,500. 8 I mean, I think what -- when I've talked with Bill, you end 9 up not saving much by cutting some of these things back a 10 little bit, so why not go the other -- you know, but if you 11 cut enough out, maybe you do save $500,000, which is 12 significant. But those are some things I think we can 13 get -- you know, ask Bill Blankenship to, you know, give us 14 some of these numbers, and I think he'll be able to do that 15 and give us good direction. We're one step closer after 16 today. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. We'll, if there's 18 nothing else, we're adjourned. Thank you all. 19 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:28 p.m.) 20 - - - - - - - - - - 21 22 23 24 25 137 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 15th day of October, 8 2001. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25