1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, October 22, 2001 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X October 22, 2001 2 PAGE --- Visitors' Comments 3 3 --- Commissioners Comments 5 1.1 Pay Bills 11 4 1.2 Budget Amendments 12 1.3 Late Bills 13 5 1.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 14 6 2.1 Presentation by KEDF president regarding new industrial park 15 7 2.2 Preliminary plat, James Avery Craftsman Subdivision, Precinct 1 25 8 2.3 Preliminary revision of plat, Lots 12, 14-19, Hartshorn Country Sites, Precinct 1, and set 9 public hearing for same 33 2.4 Final revision of plat, Whiskey Ridge Ranches, 10 Precinct 3 37 2.9 Variance for placement of OSSF drainfield on 11 Sowell property in Center Point, Texas, due to proximity of public water supply well 42 12 2.5 Open bids for purchase of 1-ton truck w/aerial lift and lease of two motor graders 50 13 2.7 PUBLIC HEARING - 2001 LLEBG Grant 53 2.8 Approval or rejection of 2001 LLEBG Grant 55 14 2.11 Court order requesting KCAD to provide data to Grantworks for mapping county infrastructure 55 15 2.12 Discuss definition of "restrained" in Section 4.1, Kerr County Rabies & Animal Control Order 59 16 2.13 Proposed order requiring registration of dangerous wild animals, set public hearing 68 17 2.14 Abatement of JP Technology Fund pending Attorney General's opinion on constitutionality 70 18 2.16 Introduction of new part-time Extension employee 75 2.15 Approval of agreement between City & County for 19 use of Hotel Occupancy Tax revenues for HCYEC improvements, authorize County Judge to sign 84 20 2.17 Discuss possible action to be taken on required FEMA study for Buckhorn Lake Resort 87 21 2.18 Consider approving salary for new Assistant County Attorney position; consider increase in 22 salary of both assistant positions 98 2.6 Award/reject bids for purchase of 1-ton truck 23 with aerial lift, lease of two motor graders 107 2.10 Discuss HCYEC revised plans, cost estimates, 24 & additional services as required 110 25 --- Adjourned 171 3 1 On Monday, October 22, 2001, at 9:00 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good morning, everyone. It's 8 9 o'clock in the morning on Monday, October 22nd. We'll 9 convene this regular special meeting of the Kerr County 10 Commissioners Court. At this time, will y'all please stand 11 and join me in a word of prayer, followed by the pledge of 12 allegiance? 13 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you all. At this time, 15 any citizen wishing to address the Court on an item not 16 listed on the regular agenda may come forth and do so. 17 Mr. Stacy? 18 MR. STACY: Judge. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Go ahead. 20 MR. STACY: Bill Stacy, 121 Stacy Lane, 21 Kerrville, Texas. At a breakfast meeting last Tuesday, I 22 expressed my disappointment with the direction of Kerr 23 County Commissioners Court and the decisions you were 24 making, in my opinion, were not in the public interest. 25 Commissioner Williams was at that meeting, invited me to 4 1 come to Commissioners Court today and repeat my disagreement 2 with the decisions of the Court, so here they are. Thank 3 you, Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Any time, Mr. Stacy. 5 MR. STACY: The Court dropped the lawsuit 6 against the architects and contractors, fully knowing that 7 what was built as the law enforcement building was not the 8 plans that were approved by the Commissioners Court. And, 9 we also want -- they never asked what happened to those 10 plans, and the mystery still exists. The Court gave the 11 Environmental Health Department to the U.G.R.A., and even 12 ducked some of the hard questions that needed solving by the 13 Court, and my suggestion is that they take it back. The 14 Court refuses to include the Juvenile Detention Facility as 15 a County asset, leaving its ownership in the hands of three 16 lawyers who have no business experience and who are 17 reluctant to give financial data to the Court. The 18 Administrator receives a larger salary than the Sheriff. 19 At a political decision committee meeting to 20 address the county redistricting, rather than putting people 21 who had had experience on previous redistricting matters. 22 Putting in a multi-million-dollar facility of county 23 commission -- communications. Not working with the City for 24 common dispatch, and allowing 911 to spend more money and 25 not presenting an updated map and seats of emergency 5 1 vehicles. The director should be changed; the present one 2 is not up to the job. The update on the county 3 communications facility should have been done within the 4 budget and not on borrowed money. The previous Sheriff was 5 not consulted in this matter. Voting himself a pay raise 6 and increasing taxes. At least you should wait for the pay 7 raise until the next court. The Court should ask itself, 8 what have we done for the people of Kerrville, and what have 9 you done to the people of Kerrville? Thank you, gentlemen. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Judge 12 Stacy. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other citizen who'd like 14 to address the Court on items not listed on today's agenda? 15 Is there any other citizen who'd like to address the Court 16 on an item not listed on today's agenda? Seeing none, we'll 17 close the visitors' input section and go to the 18 Commissioners' comments. Let's lead off with the Tivy 19 football update from Commissioner Baldwin. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We won. 21 (Laughter.) 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We won. Tivy beat 23 Boerne, and I can't remember what the score was. Forty -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Much to little. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Lot of fun. 6 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Next week's the 2 moment of truth. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, this coming 4 Friday night. If anybody wants to see some real, live, 5 Texas high school football, it's this Friday at Smithson 6 Valley, about halfway between Boerne and New Braunfels. 7 They're number five in the state; we're number ten in the 8 state, so it's going to be a -- they haven't been beat down 9 there in a long time by anybody, and the time has come. So, 10 that's -- I'm taking off early in the afternoon to go get my 11 ankles taped for Friday night. 12 (Laughter.) 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all, Judge. 14 Thank you. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Commissioner. 16 Bill? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Couple things, Judge. 18 The Court's been asking about the elevator at the -- the 19 installation of the elevator at the Butt-Holdsworth Library. 20 I'm pleased to announce that the elevator has a November 21 start date for replacing the old elevator with the brand new 22 one. And, the Library Administrator intends to be at City 23 Council tomorrow night to seek approval for -- to go out for 24 bids for the new vehicle, which will extend library services 25 both to the east and to the west in Kerr County, and that's 7 1 good news. That's part of our initiative that we're 2 pushing -- pushing forward. Finally we're going to get it. 3 One other quickie. There was a letter in the 4 Kerrville Daily Times not too long ago over the signature of 5 Emil Skocpol, who lives on either Monroe or Michon Street, 6 take your pick. And the headline said he had been 911'd. 7 The problem is that everybody going through 911 and making 8 things happen, everybody but the Postmaster seems to pick up 9 on it and make the change. So, he wrote a letter to the 10 Postmaster. It's brief; let me read it into the record. 11 "Memo to Postmaster of Kerrville: The ball 12 is in your court. 911 has acted to correct a 13 problem that needed correcting. Perhaps they 14 acted without your input. Or perhaps both of 15 you failed to foresee all of the consequences 16 in your previous coordination, if there was 17 any. But now you need to live with the 18 situation, just as I and many others in Kerr 19 County must. The enclosed clipping describes 20 my problem and the problem of many others. 21 Only your action can resolve it. So it is 22 time to decide what you are going to have to 23 do, and do it, difficult as it may be. If 24 you have a better solution than the 911 25 action of three months ago, fine. If not, 8 1 bite the bullet and do what is called for. 2 But do something. The present situation is 3 awkward for all of us and intolerable for 4 others, of which I am one. Please don't just 5 sit there and point fingers." 6 This is to the Postmaster. Signed Emil 7 Skocpol, 1700 Monroe if you are writing, 177 Michon if 8 you're driving. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Jonathan? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm glad to report that 11 the Comfort football team got back to winning this weekend 12 after two weeks of losses, which is very unusual for this 13 football program down there, and also the University of 14 Texas had a great performance, beating Colorado 41 to 7, I 15 believe. Good game I attended. I mentioned to Larry a 16 minute ago, unfortunately, the University of Texas seemed to 17 pick up one thing from the Aggies; they stand throughout the 18 entire game now, so you can't relax. But, aside from that, 19 a great event. And the only other thing I have is, there is 20 a meeting this evening for anyone that wants to attend of 21 the City's long-range planning efforts. They're going to 22 look at, I guess, the first draft of the land use program. 23 Meeting is at 6:30 in the City Council chambers, and it will 24 be -- this meeting will then be followed by -- I believe 25 it's November 12th with -- the transportation plan will be 9 1 introduced, the first draft of that. They're doing it 2 chapter-by-chapter at this point, but land use is tonight 3 and transportation is in about three weeks. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good. Larry? 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: For those of you, 6 or -- and for the public that has been accessing our -- our 7 burn ban web site to get the status, there's some shifting 8 around went over of that page for this -- this weekend. By 9 the end of the day today, the page link should be 10 straightened out. I've temporarily put that over on my web 11 site. It was on my web site to start with, but I've changed 12 web sites, so it's moved. But, if you go to the old links, 13 you can get there. And, by the end of the day, everything 14 should be straight that -- it will be up and running on the 15 new site. As soon as we get the County web site up, it will 16 be posted there, the burn ban status. So, we'll have 17 another change sometime in the future, as soon as we get the 18 web site for the County up, which is the next order of 19 business. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which reminds me, 21 Larry. I had a note here on this report from the library. 22 If we could have Shaun get in touch with Antonio Martinez 23 over at the library, we could create a link to 24 Butt-Holdsworth Library, and it might be beneficial. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sure. Sure. Easy to 10 1 do. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else? 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: A few scheduling items. 5 10:30 today, we'll be taking our morning break, and as part 6 of that we're going to do the Red Ribbon Week opening 7 ceremony on the south steps of the courthouse to celebrate 8 Red Ribbon Week, which is drug awareness and alcohol abuse 9 awareness week, and sponsored by the Hill Country Council on 10 Alcohol and Drug Abuse. Also, the agenda item regarding the 11 Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center will be taken up at 12 1 o'clock this afternoon, for all of you that are interested 13 in that. I'll also remind everyone that our next scheduled 14 meeting is November 12th, which is a holiday, so that 15 meeting will be November 13th; Tuesday, November 13th. 16 Finally, for the public and the members of the Court, we 17 will be meeting sometime the morning of November 9th to 18 canvass the votes for the constitutional amendment 19 elections. By law, we're required to canvass those votes 20 between Friday, November 9th, and Monday, November 12th, so 21 we'll be meeting in mid-morning on the 9th at -- a brief 22 meeting in order to canvass the votes for the constitutional 23 amendment election. I'll further remind everyone that early 24 voting for the constitutional amendment election started 25 today. Early voting is at Zion Lutheran Church on Sidney 11 1 Baker Street. That's a change from what we've always done 2 in the past, where early voting was at the Municipal 3 Auditorium. That change is occasioned by the fact that the 4 Municipal Auditorium is under construction and is no longer 5 available for early voting until such construction has been 6 completed. So, the good folks of Zion Lutheran Church were 7 kind enough to offer their facilities for early voting, and 8 that's where it's taking place this morning, and will take 9 place all this week and next week, up until the election 10 day. So, please be mindful of those scheduling briefings as 11 we go through the next couple of weeks. 12 With that, let's pay some bills. Tommy? 13 Does anyone have any questions or comments regarding the 14 bills as presented? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Move we pay the bills. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 18 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 19 authorize payment of the bills as presented and recommended 20 by the Auditor. Any further questions or comments? If not, 21 all in favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. And, we do 12 1 have a budget amendment. Budget Amendment Request Number 1 2 from J.P. Number 4. 3 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. This amendment is a 4 request from -- from J.P. 4 to transfer $200 from Office 5 Supplies to Software Maintenance, and it's to make payment 6 to Apollo Software, which is the software that the J.P. 7 uses. We had budgeted $400. The bill was $600. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Does this cover for 9 the next year? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: It's an annual -- 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So that just went up. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I move that we approve 14 the amendment. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 17 Griffin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court approve 18 Budget Amendment Request Number 1 for J.P. Number 4. Any 19 further questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise 20 your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Any further 25 budget amendments, Tommy? 13 1 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do we have any late bills? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: I have one. It's payable to 4 Perry Cortese. It's for $922.30, and it's for 5 court-appointed attorney. It's a September bill, and we're 6 asking for a hand check today so we won't have to hold it 7 until November. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: How much was it, again? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: $922.30. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 13 second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court approve a 14 late bill and hand check in the amount of $922.30 payable to 15 Perry Cortese for attorney's fees. Any further questions or 16 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: That's it. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything further? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: That's it. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, thanks. At this time, 25 I would accept a motion to approve and accept the monthly 14 1 reports as presented. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 5 Williams, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 6 approve and accept the monthly reports as presented. Any 7 questions or comments? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question. I 9 only have two. Do you guys have more than that? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Got one from Road and 11 Bridge this morning. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Road and Bridge this 13 morning? 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is from the County Clerk 15 regarding fees. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Well, I'll vote 17 for the two that I have. That's all I can approve. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Are you asking that we not 19 approve these two? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, I'm not. I'm 21 just -- when I vote yes, it's to approve these two that I've 22 received. One of them is a July report. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not complaining; 25 I'm just telling you what I'm voting for. 15 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 2 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay, let's 7 move on to the consideration agenda. Item Number 1 is a 8 presentation by Sherry Cunningham, president of the Kerr 9 Economic Development Foundation, regarding the new 10 industrial park to be located on Highway 27 East. 11 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Good morning. How are you? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good. 13 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you for inviting me to 14 come this morning. For the record, I am Sherry Cunningham. 15 I live at 934 Bluebonnet here in Kerrville. I'm president 16 of the Kerr Economic Development Foundation, and I'm just 17 going to give you a little bit of an overview, and then if 18 you have any questions, certainly we'll try to answer those 19 questions for you. I would also like to point out that Dick 20 Colvin, who is the developer of the business park, is here 21 with us. Dick's right here in the green shirt. 22 Several years ago, in fact, probably ever 23 since I've been here, the need for a business park has been 24 something that has been foremost on our mind for the 25 Kerrville/Kerr County area. One reason is because when we 16 1 were working with businesses who are already here, wanting 2 to expand, we had little space for them to go to that was 3 zoned properly, that had easy access to I-10, without 4 bringing trucks through the city, et cetera, et cetera. 5 And, so we've been working on this over the years. And, 6 really, what was happening through this period is, if 7 someone wanted to expand their business here, if someone 8 wanted to relocate their business here, they basically had 9 to serve as their own developer to be able to do that, and 10 so it was not really -- we were not really open, I would 11 say, to those types of things, because we did not have a 12 designated area to -- to facilitate that. So, about three 13 years ago, the Economic Development Foundation hosted a 14 joint planning summit for economic development, and the 15 business park came out as a primary goal at that time, and 16 we started -- we developed a business -- business park task 17 force. We started having discussions with the Economic 18 Improvement Corporation, which is the 4B sales tax, City of 19 Kerrville, et cetera, et cetera. 20 To make a long story short, about a year ago, 21 Mr. Colvin came to us and said, "I have land across from the 22 airport that's really a good site for a business park." In 23 fact, up to this point, we had done a study of available 24 sites, and the biggest challenge that we faced throughout 25 this whole period was trying to find flat land in the Hill 17 1 Country. So, it was -- you know, that's not real available 2 when you're looking at 50 to 100 acres, and so we had looked 3 at all these sites, and most -- mostly all of our sites were 4 around the airport area. And, so he came to us -- and when 5 I say "us," the Kerr Economic Development Foundation -- and 6 asked that we support him in his effort to do this through 7 the private sector, and so we agreed to do that and to put 8 our active efforts on hold to -- to really support him to do 9 that, because we felt like -- the board members felt like 10 that this was probably a wonderful answer for us to be able 11 to attain this goal quicker than if we were trying to do it 12 ourselves. And so, we've been working in that direction 13 about, oh, probably 15 months now. A few weeks ago, the 14 development agreement was signed between Mr. Colvin and the 15 City of Kerrville, and it was a long -- long in the making. 16 We really want to compliment Ron Patterson, who's the City 17 Manager, and his staff for -- for helping lead us through 18 this, because this is the first time any of us have done 19 this, and so we're breaking new ground. 20 One of the reasons -- another reason that I 21 want to point out, before I get too far, that -- why we 22 needed a business park, is that when you look at our area 23 compared to other areas, 62 percent of our tax base is 24 supported by homeowners and 38 percent is supported by 25 business, which is the complete opposite of the -- those 18 1 averages on the state, and so we need -- we knew that we 2 needed to enhance our tax base. And, of course, then 3 recently, with the situation with Mooney Aircraft, of 4 course, that's even more critical, because Mooney is our 5 number two taxpayer in the county, and -- and the situation 6 that's going on out there right now could really have an 7 adverse effect on our area. Just a side point; we do have a 8 couple of offers. There have been a couple of offers that 9 have been presented to that company, and so maybe that will 10 get turned around pretty soon. We hope it does. 11 I brought you some handouts today, and these 12 are excerpts from the development agreement that the City 13 and Mr. Colvin put together, and the pages that I pulled out 14 cover the permitted uses, the uses that are going to require 15 conditional use permits. Lot regulations, parking 16 requirements, landscaping, building exteriors, driveways, 17 loading and unloading, screening regulations. The reason I 18 pulled these out of the development agreement -- the 19 development agreement's about this thick, and I didn't -- a 20 lot of it is -- is reading that maybe you might not be 21 interested in. Most of the questions we get about the 22 business park are how are those -- how is that site going to 23 be used, and what's going to be permitted out there, and 24 how's it going to look and all those things. So, I just 25 pulled this out so I could give that to you. You can read 19 1 through that, and then if you have any questions, you can 2 certainly ask them of us at any time. 3 I also brought you a copy of the diagram of 4 how the park is going to be designed. Phase I is going to 5 be -- this is Highway 27, and it's kind of a loop through 6 here. And, I'll pass these out. Phase I is going to be 7 kind of over in this area. There will be about almost -- 8 probably around close to 17 acres in Phase I. And, again, 9 all of that is spelled out in that development agreement. 10 So, let me pass these out to you, and -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 12 MS. CUNNINGHAM: I don't know if you have 13 specific questions that you -- about this area. One of the 14 next things that the Kerr Economic Development Foundation is 15 -- what we're working on right now is a marketing plan, and 16 we've already visited with several local entities who are 17 already doing outside marketing, because we are -- we're 18 hoping to be able to do some companion things that will 19 attract attention not only to this business park. But, if 20 you paid attention to the news the other night, at the 21 Economic Improvement Corporation meeting, the E.I.C. did 22 approve funding to take water and wastewater into the 23 airport, which I think is -- is a wonderful announcement, 24 because, you know, that's going to give us the option of 25 promoting that area also. And, so, that's something that's 20 1 been of great interest to me, because in the last year we've 2 had three different prospects who've shown an interest in 3 locating on the -- at the airport, who needed -- people who 4 needed access to the tarmac and to the runways, and so I 5 think that's going to be a real positive step, too. And, 6 that's about all we have on that to this point. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sherry? 8 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, sir? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the plat, just so I 10 can get my bearings, where is Chapman Building Products? 11 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Okay, let me find my notes 12 and I'll show you. This -- Chapman is right here. This is 13 27. Chapman is right here. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This tract up here? 15 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Yes, sir. And this that 16 I've highlighted right here, this is going to be Phase I. 17 Phase I right there, close to 17 acres. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Between the park and 20 the Chapmans; is that correct? 21 MS. CUNNINGHAM: It's -- actually, Chapman's 22 is right here, and there's a lot here -- couple of lots 23 here, and then the road. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, okay, I see. 25 MS. CUNNINGHAM: You see that? 21 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Does anyone have any 2 questions of Sherry? 3 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Just call me Grace. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Just a quick one. 5 What's the current schedule for the start of Phase I? 6 MS. CUNNINGHAM: When I was talking to 7 Mr. Patterson at City Hall the other day, I know they're in 8 the process right now of preparing their requests for bids 9 for extending the water and wastewater out to this site, and 10 I think simultaneously here, working on your plans. And, 11 so, these things will go succinct down the road together, 12 and so I -- I think that we're probably looking at 12 to 18 13 months, maybe sooner. Do you want to address that? Let me 14 ask the expert. 15 MR. COLVIN: I'm Dick Colvin. I live at 16 Hunt, Texas. Commissioner Griffin, your question was when 17 we will we be ready to sell out? 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What's your -- 19 MR. COLVIN: Or when will we be beginning? 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, beginning the 21 development of Phase I. When would you start moving dirt, 22 or whatever the current plan is? 23 MR. COLVIN: We intend to file -- file the 24 preliminary plat in the next few weeks with the City. They 25 will probably be ready to go to bid in the next, I'm 22 1 guessing, 45 days, plus or minus 15 or so. They haven't 2 really confirmed that to me. We probably will begin 3 construction at the same time they do, so that we can 4 simultaneously complete our -- we're inside the subdivision 5 in conjunction with their work outside the subdivision. So, 6 I'm thinking probably late December, early January. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah, okay. 8 MR. COLVIN: We'll actually have a bulldozer 9 on site. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Just an idea. I 11 realize those things are -- can be affected by a lot of 12 things, but -- but you're shooting for maybe the end of the 13 year? 14 MR. COLVIN: There's no reason that I have to 15 hold anything up. Everybody from the City, all the way 16 through to our engineers, are pushing as quickly as they 17 can. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Great. 19 MR. COLVIN: Any other questions? 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anything else you want to 21 tell us, Dick, or anyone have any questions? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Frank has a question. 23 MR. JOHNSTON: Is the City annexing this into 24 the city limits? 25 MR. COLVIN: Yes. Thank you. 23 1 MS. CUNNINGHAM: I have a couple other 2 things; it's not on the agenda, if I could just share them 3 with you. I brought you some other handouts. And, we had a 4 planning summit the other day for economic development, and 5 I -- some really good information came from that. We had a 6 gentleman from the Texas Workforce Commission out of Austin 7 who gave us some of the latest demographics and overviews 8 from the 2000 census. I've brought you copies of that. A 9 couple of you picked that up, but some of you weren't there, 10 so I'm going to leave that with you, and then if you have 11 any questions, we'll certainly be able -- be willing to 12 answer those for you. Also, I just mentioned to you that 13 the E.I.C. did approve the infrastructure request to take 14 the water and wastewater into the airport. I think this is 15 a -- a huge step, and so I think things are progressing 16 well. Once we get the feedback from the planning summit on 17 paper, we'll be able to share that with you. We just 18 haven't had time to do that, since we had that meeting on 19 Thursday. So, let me give you these things, and then I'll 20 get out of your way. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: While Sherry's doing that, I 22 want to thank Dick for his efforts on behalf of the 23 community, and I know it's a commercial venture, but it's 24 also one that's going to have, I think, a great deal of 25 impact on Kerr County in the future, and greatly needed. 24 1 And, I want to thank you for your perseverance and 2 willingness to undertake this, and we certainly hope that 3 it's a great success, and look forward to the opening, not 4 only of Phase I, but of Phase II and Phase III shortly 5 thereafter. So -- 6 MR. COLVIN: Thank you very much. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- good luck, and let's see 8 some dirt flying out there. 9 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Sure is nice to have 10 something to promote that we can guide people to, so we 11 thank you for all your help. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sherry, I have one more 13 question, going back to -- you mentioned the sewer and 14 wastewater going to the airport. How is that going? Is 15 that going out 27 past the business park, or is it going 16 across that runway or around -- 17 MS. CUNNINGHAM: I believe it's -- I didn't 18 bring that design with me this morning, but from where the 19 sewer is -- is stubbed off there at Al Mooney Road, I 20 believe it's going to come back down that way and then back 21 over to the buildings kind of out in the center. I can get 22 that for you and fax it over to you. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can get it from the 24 City. Is it just going onto the city property? 'Cause I 25 know there's been some requests to go to that subdivision 25 1 right next to the airport. 2 MS. CUNNINGHAM: I think right now they're 3 going to take it out into the airport property proper. How 4 it's going to be sized and whether that will be able to be 5 connected -- Fred, I don't know if you -- I don't know if we 6 got into those discussions or not the other day. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Right now, the plan -- 8 they're just going to loop it through the airport property, 9 but they're going to do it in such a way that all of the 10 jointly owned City/County airport property will be capable 11 of being served by wastewater services. But, at this point, 12 there is no -- as far as I could tell, any thought about 13 reaching out to that subdivision. It could be amended to do 14 that, but that subdivision would also have to be annexed. 15 MS. CUNNINGHAM: I think you're talking about 16 the one behind the airport? Johnson? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Northeast -- or east. 18 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Yeah. Well, as we get more 19 information, we'll share that with you. Thank you very 20 much. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Appreciate it. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Thanks. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item is Item Number 2, 24 consider the preliminary plat of James Avery Craftsman 25 Subdivision, Precinct 1. Commissioner Baldwin? 26 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: County Engineer 2 Johnston is here, as well as Mr. Jones and Mr. Pollard, and 3 I think all three are prepared to present, if necessary. 4 Mr. Johnston? 5 MR. JOHNSTON: James Avery Subdivision is 6 just a long -- one tract of land, 26.71 acres, where their 7 present -- or many of their present buildings exist. I 8 think it says James Avery Craftsman Road; I think it's just 9 Avery Road or Avery something. But, everything south of 10 that road. No new roads or anything being built; it's all 11 facing Kerr County or state roads. We have a letter in our 12 packet from TexDOT saying they have no objections. There's 13 one little tract of land that was -- that's dedicated as a 14 greenbelt. That's separate from Tract 1. That was cut off 15 when they realigned the roads sometime back. It's not a 16 building site, so it's not designated as a lot. Their wells 17 are shown there on a separate plat. All the utilities are 18 shown, septic systems and such. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone have any questions or 20 comments? 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Looks fine, but I just 22 have a quick one. What was it before? 23 MR. JOHNSTON: Acreage. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It was just acreage, 25 and so they're -- now they're going to plat this 26.71? 27 1 Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just make sure we get 3 the -- 4 MR. JOHNSTON: Is that right? 5 MR. DIGGES: Yeah. Everything, basically, 6 that is south of the roadway, James Avery Craftsman Drive, 7 is unplatted land. And, we've come to you before and we 8 were going to make this all in one plat. We were going to 9 plat what was part of Hartshorn to the north of that roadway 10 and combine it with this acreage property that had never 11 been platted, and the difficulty we ran into with doing that 12 was, we were going to have to vacate it, the part that's -- 13 what had become part of a subdivision. And, that was 14 getting kind of legally cumbersome, and so we've rearranged 15 how we're handling this. Now we're going to do it in two 16 parts. One is going to be this plat that you have before 17 you for the unplatted acreage property. That will become 18 James Avery Craftsman Subdivision. The part to the north is 19 going to be a revision plat of the Hartshorn Addition, and 20 so we're dealing with all their property, but we're having 21 to do it in two parts at the same time. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Charlie, the only 23 thing I wanted to add is, be sure to get the correct name of 24 the road next time around. 25 MR. DIGGES: Yes. Now, I don't know the -- 28 1 that's what was suggested to us by 911. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, they're wrong. 3 It is Avery Road, by their own list. 4 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And one little 7 nitpick. I notice that the preliminary plat is not labeled 8 as a preliminary plat. Was -- is that intentional? Or is 9 that -- it usually says preliminary plat, and on the lower 10 right-hand corner of this one, it does not. It doesn't say 11 final, either. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Charlie, we're going 13 to have to take you out and beat you; that's all there is to 14 it. 15 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That can be added 17 easily. 18 MR. DIGGES: Yeah. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mr. Pollard, you signed up to 20 speak. Do you have anything you want to say at this time? 21 MR. POLLARD: Well, only if there are any 22 questions by the Court as to any legal aspects of it. But 23 Commissioners Court may be interested in knowing that there 24 are no restrictive covenants on the unplatted part. I 25 happen to have a certificate from -- a commitment from 29 1 Fidelity Abstract and Title Company here that shows that 2 that I would be willing to offer into evidence, so to speak, 3 to Commissioners Court, if you desire, showing that there 4 are no restrictive covenants on that. As to the part in 5 Hartshorn Country Sites, there were some restrictions on 6 that, but a few years ago they were kind of cleaned up and 7 all -- and all released, with one exception. There was a 8 lady named -- a person named Creamer, C-r-e-a-m-e-r, that 9 conveyed the property to Mr. Hartshorn and put a restrictive 10 covenant in there with a reverter clause, by the way, that 11 said there could be no sale of certain alcoholic beverages 12 or vinous products, wine, on the property. And, of course, 13 James Avery Craftsman has no intention to violate that. 14 By the way, that reverter clause has been 15 released. I drafted it and the lady signed it. It was 16 obtained through Jimmy Peschel of Fidelity Abstract and 17 Title Company, and I did the work on getting all of the 18 other restrictive covenants in Hartshorn released. They 19 were kind of a mess. The Hartshorns decided back when they 20 subdivided that in the '40's to put the restrict -- rather 21 than put them on the plat or record some separate 22 restrictive covenants, they elected to do it in each deed if 23 they can't trade them out. Well, they forgot it to do it in 24 perhaps a third or a half of them, and then the remaining 25 part, they restricted them with a termination date in 1980. 30 1 They were good for about 35, 40 years, and those all 2 terminated on a certain date in 1980. And then the 3 remaining part, they restricted them forever. 4 And so when the Averys contracted and 5 acquired some of these tracts a few years ago, I -- they 6 commissioned me to look into all of this and try to 7 straighten it out and clean it up. We determined which lots 8 were still restricted and went through and got a release of 9 those restrictions and reverter clauses done at that time, 10 because those remaining lot owners felt like they were being 11 discriminated against a little bit, since they were 12 restricted and nobody else was. So, they're all -- in 13 effect, the restrictive covenants are reduced out there, and 14 that's pertinent to your consideration, because your 15 subdivision regs tracking the statute require that you can't 16 affect established rights of other owners in the subdivision 17 when you're replatting, so we took a careful look at that. 18 We've always been very careful in doing this to not affect 19 any easements or roads or any -- any rights of any of the 20 other lot owners in the subdivision. 21 There are no -- there is no restriction 22 against resubdividing. And, if you're interested, there is 23 a -- a case in Texas -- a couple of cases in Texas holding 24 that if you don't have a restriction against resubdividing, 25 why, the other lot owners can have no objection against 31 1 resubdividing them into smaller lots. I can give you that 2 case if you -- if you're interested. That may be more 3 information than you really want to know. Anyway, if you 4 have any further questions, we're not affecting any of the 5 rights of the other established lot owners in the Hartshorn 6 Country Sites. We're, in effect, taking -- how many lots is 7 it, Charlie? 8 MR. DIGGES: I think there's currently ten 9 tracts between the two plats. 10 MR. POLLARD: And platting them into what, 11 four? Four lots, so we're actually going from kind of 12 smaller to bigger, I guess you'd call it. So, it's a -- we 13 think it -- checked it with your Subdivision Regulations, 14 and I think it's going to fly. And I visited with a number 15 of you about it. I believe it will go. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Does anyone have any 17 questions or comments? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a motion. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Before I recognize your 20 motion, the County Clerk, who's not here today because of 21 early voting, has asked me to remind Keith, as well as the 22 people on the next agenda item, that for preliminary plats, 23 the developer is required to provide the names and addresses 24 of all of the affected owners, because we do have to send 25 out registered mail notices of the preliminary plat. So, 32 1 please remember to turn that information in to the County 2 Clerk's office so that they can send out the required 3 notices in advance of the final action. Now, Commissioner? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Move that we approve 5 the preliminary plat for James Avery Craftsman Subdivision. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second -- third. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 9 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 10 approve the preliminary plat of James Avery Craftsman 11 Subdivision in Precinct 1. Any further questions or 12 comments? 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Comment. The building 14 and underground utilities drawing is an absolute magnificent 15 piece of work. If we had something like this on all of 16 them, it sure would make it easy to do this kind of work. 17 Great job. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You saved yourself, 19 Charlie. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 21 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you, 33 1 gentlemen. We appreciate it. The next item is Item Number 2 3, consider the preliminary revision of plat for Lots 12, 3 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 of Hartshorn Country Sites, 4 Precinct 1, and set a public hearing for the same. 5 Commissioner Baldwin? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now the counselor can 7 make his comments. 8 MR. POLLARD: I'll say they're all applicable 9 here, without repeating. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: County Engineer? 11 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Tom made a pretty good 12 presentation on what this entails. It just occurred to me 13 there is an exception to public hearings for lots that are 14 combined to make the net number of lots larger. I don't 15 know if this would fall under that. It may fall under that 16 category where it wouldn't need a public hearing. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tom? 18 MR. POLLARD: When I spoke to Franklin about 19 this, he indicated that he thought it would require a public 20 hearing, and I didn't object or say anything at that time. 21 If you -- if there's any doubt about it, let's -- let's go 22 ahead and have a public hearing on it. If there's any 23 question about it, let's go ahead and have it and let's get 24 it. That way, there's no question at all. 25 MR. JOHNSTON: Okay. 34 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've got -- I don't have 2 a copy of the rules in front of me right now, but it's one 3 of those areas that we made the modification and amended the 4 rules. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: We changed that a few months 6 ago, yeah. Other than that, it's fairly straightforward, 7 taking the existing lots and rearranging them somewhat into 8 larger lots. Some lots shown are -- are parts of existing 9 lots, and that's all been cleaned up. And, there again, 10 there's no new roads or -- or infrastructure to be built. 11 Everything's existing and shown on the plat. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's take a moment here. 13 We'll check and see if a public hearing is required. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've got to find the 15 revision. I found the page. Actually, the language that 16 was added says the Commissioners Court is not required to 17 give notice, under Subsection C for plat revision, if it 18 only combines existing tracts. Is it only combining 19 existing tracts? 20 MR. DIGGES: Well, no, because in -- in one 21 instance, that's true. In the -- in two -- actually three 22 other instances, it's dealing with parts of lots that have 23 already been conveyed by metes and bounds, and not by the 24 replat process, and so we're going through and we're 25 cleaning that up. It's already existing conditions, but it 35 1 wouldn't -- wouldn't fulfill those terms. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with Tom Pollard. 3 MR. JOHNSTON: Better to clean all that up. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Be sure. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the public 6 hearing date? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Next date that's over 30 days. 8 I think that's the November 26th meeting. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Correct. I believe -- 10 MR. DIGGES: The advertising, too. There has 11 to be advertising in the newspaper. 12 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. 13 MR. DIGGES: And then I guess what y'all were 14 saying was that because the County Clerk is tied up with the 15 elections, that -- sometimes they provide the names and 16 addresses, but that's going to be incumbent on to us do so? 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: We require the developer to 18 provide the names and addresses. 19 MR. DIGGES: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We mail it out. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: We send out the notice. We 22 require you all to provide us with the names and addresses. 23 MR. DIGGES: Okay. We're going to need 24 probably a week to get that together, and then I don't know 25 what type of lead time you need for those letters -- they 36 1 have to be received before a certain time frame before the 2 meeting? 3 MR. JOHNSTON: Needs to be a 30-day period 4 from when they're mailed, right? To when the next meeting 5 is? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think so. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the only time 8 frame thing. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: Should we go two more weeks to 10 give them time to get the names together? 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sounds like the first meeting 12 in December would be the safe alternative, if that meets 13 with y'all's timetable. What day would that be? 14 MS. SOVIL: The 10th. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: 10th? Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. Judge, I move 17 that we approve the preliminary revision of plat for Lots 18 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 of Hartshorn Country Sites in 19 Precinct 1, and set a public hearing for 10 a.m. December 20 the 10th, 2001. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 23 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 24 approve a preliminary revision of plat for Lots 12, 14, 15, 25 16, 17, 18, and 19 of Hartshorn Country Sites, Precinct 1, 37 1 and set the public hearing for that for 10 o'clock a.m. on 2 December 10th, Year 2001, here in the Kerr County 3 Courthouse. Any questions or comments? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Quick comment, kind of an 5 addition to what Larry said about the utility plat. I'd 6 like to thank James Avery for -- you know, in all things 7 they do, for doing it first class and doing it the right 8 way, and I appreciate it. Pass the word back to others at 9 James Avery, that whenever we deal with James Avery 10 Craftsman, they want to do it the right way, legal way, and 11 it makes our life a lot easier. We appreciate it. 12 MR. DIGGES: Thank you. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any further questions or 14 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay. Next 19 item is Item Number 4, consider the final revision of plat 20 of Whiskey Ridge Ranches, Lots Number 15 and 16, in Precinct 21 3. Commissioner Letz. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Franklin? 23 MR. JOHNSTON: This is combining two lots 24 into a one-lot subdivision. I think they were here the last 25 meeting, and it does not require a public hearing, the 38 1 statute you just read, and so we're here for the final plat. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Before we vote on that, 6 Mr. Swanson had asked to address us on this issue. 7 Mr. Swanson, do you want to come forward and do that at this 8 time? 9 MR. SWANSON: Good morning. I'm back. Feel 10 like Arnold Schwarzenegger here. I understand that this 11 procedure is a replat. To me, it's more of an unplat. But, 12 the procedure is state law and -- and it's the current 13 interpretation, so I'm doing that. However, the fees -- I 14 think some of it, anyway -- is within the jurisdiction of 15 this Court, and they seem excessive to me. Every time I 16 turned around, I had to pay another fee. There was a 17 preliminary plat fee for -- for three of the entities I went 18 through. U.G.R.A., that was a $75 fee, and I know they did 19 review the plan, because we had an active discussion 20 whether, at 2,080 feet, I was within a floodplain in Kerr 21 County. I think we convinced them that if we have to worry 22 about a flood out there, we better pair them up two by two. 23 The Headwaters, they reviewed it. I had no comment back 24 from them. I know they reviewed it, you know, for the 25 County. They charged me $50 for recording of this 39 1 preliminary plat fee, and I asked them, I said, well, why do 2 you need -- what's to be recorded? This is preliminary, 3 it's not even final. And I could not get an answer that 4 made any sense to me. 5 I would like to point out that the telephone 6 company, electric company, emergency 911, and the County 7 Engineer and the Road and Bridge was no charge. They saw 8 what they did as part of their normal business, and I think 9 what Mr. Johnston and the Road and Bridge -- I think they 10 probably put out more work on this thing than anyone else in 11 this -- in this procedure. Anyway, that was $175 just to 12 get to you people a couple weeks ago. Now, then, when I 13 tried to get the final -- I put together a spreadsheet. The 14 U.G.R.A. and the Headwaters, everybody else said, well, 15 you've already paid all the fees necessary. We'll look at 16 the final and, you know, either sign off or whatever. The 17 County, another record plat fee of 50 bucks. I'm not sure 18 whether this replaces the one that I gave them as a 19 preliminary. I mean, it's almost identical; there's a 20 couple other comments on it. But then there's all these 21 other fees, and it seems like the County has come up with a 22 procedure that generates fees. For example, they require 23 tax certificates for the school tax. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Excuse me. The State 25 requires -- 40 1 MR. SWANSON: Okay. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- tax certificates. 3 MR. SWANSON: Okay. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: The only way we can know that 5 the taxes have been paid is to get a certificate from the 6 Tax Office. 7 MR. SWANSON: Okay, I stand corrected. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: All of these fees are 9 authorized and mandated by the State of Texas. 10 MR. SWANSON: So I guess my complaint is back 11 again with the State? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Every one of these fees -- 13 MR. SWANSON: So, the fees are set by the 14 State? 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: The fees are authorized by 16 the State, and in some instances they are mandated by the 17 State, yes. 18 MR. SWANSON: The dollar amount is mandated 19 by the State? 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 21 MR. SWANSON: Because -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not all. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Not all of them, but -- 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, but they set a 25 limit. 41 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah, they set a range. 2 MR. SWANSON: I mean, 'cause I had to get two 3 for each piece of property; I had to get a school tax and a 4 property tax, and so that was $10 a piece. That's $40. And 5 then I walked across the hall to file these; it was another 6 $11 for each one of these tax certificates. I -- I just 7 don't understand. Anyway, I'll make this short. I think 8 I've paid all the fees, except it was indicated that when 9 I -- I have two mylars; one that's going to be filed with 10 the County, one I want to have as my own file with the 11 surveyor. I was told the second mylar that I want filed is 12 going to be another $6 fee. Nobody else charges to sign the 13 mylars, but anyway, my conclusion is that it cost me $336 to 14 erase a property line between two platted properties, and 15 being retired, this seems excessive to me. Anyway, I thank 16 you for your attention. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you, 19 Mr. Swanson. I agree with you 100 percent. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: We have a motion by 21 Commissioner Letz, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the 22 Court approve the final revision of plat of Whiskey Ridge 23 Ranches, Lot Number 15 and Number 16. Any further questions 24 or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 42 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. We have a 4 few minutes before our scheduled public hearing, so let's go 5 ahead and take up Item Number 9, which is consider and 6 discuss a variance for the placement of O.S.S.F. drainfield 7 on Lot 1, Block 2, and Lot 1, Block 3 of the Harrison Tract, 8 Center Point, Texas. Commissioner Williams. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I'm not sure 10 where we're going to go with this or what's going to happen. 11 I provided the Court with a memorandum, just to kind of 12 summarize the problems Mr. Sowell has confronted in his 13 efforts to get a septic system replaced and updated in 14 accordance with Kerr County's O.S.S.F. Rules. This is, I 15 guess, an issue -- Mr. Sowell, do you want to come to the 16 microphone? 'Cause there will be some questions, I'm sure. 17 There's kind of a question, I guess, of which came first, 18 the chicken or the egg. And, in this case, it's pretty 19 clear that Mr. Sowell's property with his septic tank in 20 place came first, and then a public well came second, and 21 now he's caught on the horns of a dilemma as to how he can 22 improve his septic system, which he has agreed to do, in the 23 face of a 150-foot radius of a well. He did not provide the 24 well owner with a sanitary easement, as he was asked to do. 25 I'm not sure whether any others in the general vicinity 43 1 where you live, Eddie, did or not. Some may have and some 2 may not have. 3 So, the question is -- I put it on the 4 Court's agenda today because this is clearly an issue of an 5 individual property owner who's being denied, at this point, 6 the right to use his property the way he wants to use it. 7 He wants to build an extension on his building, and he wants 8 to improve his property. He wants to replace his drainfield 9 and put in a new tank, and all of a sudden, he's hung up 10 between two agencies, and they can't seem to find relief. 11 So, the last letter, which I think is really important to 12 this whole issue, is the one in your packet addressed to 13 Warren Samuelson, P.E., Team Leader, On-Site Sewage 14 Facilities program, T.N.R.C.C., and this was over the 15 signature of Stuart Barron. And, Stuart is taking up, if 16 you will, the cudgels for Mr. Sowell in his effort to get 17 the relief here, and points out that T.N.R.C.C. should, in 18 fact, sign off on this and let the man alone and let him 19 proceed to do what he wants to do, improving his property. 20 To date, T.N.R.C.C. has stonewalled it. It's somewhere in 21 that great, vast void up there, wherever "up there" is, and 22 we haven't heard anything back from them. 23 U.G.R.A. was supposed to be here this 24 morning, but Stuart had some conflict and couldn't be here, 25 but I think the letter that they wrote to Samuelson is 44 1 really sufficient. So, I don't -- I don't really know -- I 2 wanted the Court to hear it. I want Mr. Sowell to say 3 whatever it is he wants to say about this issue, and maybe 4 we'll -- we can formulate some kind of suggestions out of 5 all these five great brains up here as to how you can 6 proceed, Eddie. 7 MR. SOWELL: Okay. Well, you know, last time 8 I was here, my -- my tank was undersized and the leach lines 9 were undersized, and so I agreed, you know, of course, 10 'cause I want to abide by the law, to go ahead and put in a 11 new upgraded septic system. I run into a dilemma, though, 12 because Charles Wiedenfeld from Wiedenfeld Water Works 13 approached me with a letter to grant him a sanitary easement 14 for his public water supply system, which is right next door 15 to my property. Well, I denied him, so -- and I would not 16 grant him the easement. Well, that's where it came into 17 where now I'm trying to put in my septic system, and they're 18 saying that I've got to put it outside of a 150-foot radius, 19 and which I did not grant him -- he has rendered -- and, 20 basically, his public water system now has encroached on my 21 property, and therefore I've been trying to find relief from 22 T.N.R.C.C., U.G.R.A., and there's no -- there's no finding 23 anything out, you know. I believe that, you know, a man has 24 property rights, and it's not something that somebody should 25 be able, when you don't grant them a sanitary easement, to 45 1 still go and take it away from you, because that runs into 2 the dilemma where I'm trying to get my septic system put in 3 and upgrade my property, and I'm not allowed to do so. 4 That's basically summed it up in a -- in a nutshell. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you take a look at 6 the packet, there's a map in there that shows Mr. Sowell's 7 property in relation to the 150-foot radius of the proposed 8 drainfield and where the well head is and the whole bit. It 9 does give some pause for concern, in that the owner of the 10 public water system put his own septic system inside the 11 radius, and nobody seems to have objected to that. Just 12 thought I'd point that out. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He wrote the rules. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: It does appear, though, that 15 the problem is really one with T.N.R.C.C., and not the local 16 entities. Commissioner Griffin, do you have any thoughts on 17 that? 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. And, by the 19 way, I'm on your side in this for sure, because it appears 20 that it -- that T.N.R.C.C., if they follow their rules, -- 21 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- should never have 23 granted the permit for the well. 24 MR. SOWELL: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, I think our first 46 1 recourse has to be back to them. And, I suggested to 2 Commissioner Williams a little earlier, it's probably 3 worth -- since we are the authorized agent for T.N.R.C.C. 4 and we've hit this problem, I suggested that perhaps 5 Commissioner Williams needs to call either Mr. Samuelson or 6 one of the c.c.'s on there, Ken Graber, and say, what is the 7 status of an answer to this letter, and what are you guys 8 going to do about it? Because it's obvious that it's their 9 rules that need -- if there are any variances granted, it 10 needs to be a variance granted to Mr. Wiedenfeld on the 11 well. 12 MR. SOWELL: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Not to you on your 14 septic system, because the septic system was there first. 15 MR. SOWELL: Yes. And when I didn't grant 16 him a sanitary easement -- 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: If I might interrupt 18 you for just one second -- 19 MR. SOWELL: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- I'd like to, at 21 some point, see if we all agree with that, because it -- it 22 doesn't make any sense that somebody can go poke a well in 23 the ground without T.N.R.C.C. approval. And, if T.N.R.C.C. 24 approved it, they did so in violation of their own rules. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think there's a 47 1 little mystery here. I don't disagree with you, Larry. I 2 think you're absolutely right. Part of the mystery of this 3 whole thing is that -- and correct me if I'm wrong, Eddie -- 4 that we've not been able to come up with the well 5 application. 6 MR. SOWELL: Right. There's no sanitary 7 easement recorded in your records over here. There's 8 nothing. And, the guidelines that he had to go by when he 9 was able to put that well in there, they would -- even with 10 the Health Department, they would have never granted him 11 that, because it's not only my septic system in question; 12 there's four or five others. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Another question I have 14 is -- and because it's a commercial well, doesn't Headwaters 15 have to authorize -- I mean approve this permit for a well? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This well was 17 permitted. In fact, it was permitted right before 18 Headwaters came into being. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Before 1993? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, right. Am I 21 correct, Eddie? 22 MR. SOWELL: Somewhere in that area, yes, 23 sir, in that time frame. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can not seem to find 25 the well application anywhere. 48 1 MR. SOWELL: No. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Griffin, 3 I agree with you 100 percent, only I think that we probably 4 should even strengthen that, outline those things that you 5 said, and I think that that letter should come from this 6 Commissioners Court. A letter should come from this 7 Commissioners Court. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To Samuelson. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. Well -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We -- 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'd start with a phone 13 call; strong letter follows -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- kind of a thing, 17 and see if a phone call might get the ball rolling. And 18 then, certainly, to follow that up with a -- with a strong 19 letter to T.N.R.C.C. saying, Hey, this is a -- this is a 20 T.N.R.C.C. problem. It was created by T.N.R.C.C., directly 21 or indirectly, and you guys need to fix it. Whether that 22 means shutting down the well or whether it means granting a 23 variance to the well owner or whatever. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we can do that. 25 Eddie, I'll do that. I'll direct a telephone call to 49 1 Mr. Samuelson, and if we don't go anywhere there, we'll go 2 to Mr. Graber on the basis of Stuart Barron's letter of 3 August 28th. And if that doesn't get us some results, then 4 we'll have a letter directly from the Court. 5 MR. SOWELL: All I can say is, good luck, 6 'cause I've been doing it for years. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We'll do it one way or 8 another. 9 MR. SOWELL: I appreciate it. I just don't 10 feel that I need to have a variance away from a 150-foot 11 zone. And, if you look on that map, well, the 150-foot zone 12 eats up 97 percent of my property. And I'm to the point 13 now, I don't care if I have to put my septic system in my 14 tree. I want to know why that well system's there. 15 Gentlemen, thank you so much. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll be in touch with 18 you. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would rather get a 20 motion to authorize the Court to write a letter, if needed. 21 That way you don't have to bring it back. I think 22 Commissioner Baldwin's idea is a good one. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it's a good 24 one, too. I would move that the Commissioners Court 25 authorize the writing of a letter to T.N.R.C.C. after -- as 50 1 a follow-up to telephone calls, to get them to move on this 2 matter regarding Mr. Sowell and his septic system in Center 3 Point. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Third. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 7 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 8 authorize the writing of a letter to the T.N.R.C.C. 9 regarding the variance for the placement of the O.S.S.F. 10 drainfield on Lot 1, Block 2, and Lot 1, Block 3 of Harrison 11 Tract, Center Point, Texas. Any further questions or 12 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. It's 17 10 o'clock. Let's take up Item Number 5, which is open bids 18 for purchase of a 1-ton truck with aerial lift, and also 19 bids for the lease of two motor graders. Do we have any 20 bids to open? 21 (Discussion off the record.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: First bid we have is from 23 Commercial Body Corporation for 1-ton truck, and the amount 24 of the bid is $35,995. Quotation from a -- for the used 25 Versalift Model Tel-29N aerial device with side-mounted 51 1 platform, and that bid is the same, $35,995. Must be just a 2 backup for this original bid. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is on the 4 maintainer. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is the bid for the motor 6 graders, and it's from Anderson Machinery of San Antonio, 7 and it is for $166,552.76 each, for each of the two motor 8 graders, and it also has a lease and rental agreement for 9 the motor graders for a rate of $2,717.55 per month for 60 10 months. Again, that's for each piece of equipment. Okay. 11 Then we have -- from Holt Company of Texas, 12 we have -- for the new motor grader, we have a bid of 13 $79,800 per machine, and we also have a -- here's the lease 14 agreement. It's just a sample. It appears that the payment 15 amount on the lease is approximately $1,900 a month -- 16 $1,295 payment amount. I'm not sure whether that includes 17 the interest at $618.23 per month or not. 18 AUDIENCE: Total amount's $1,295 a month for 19 60 months. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move we accept all -- oh, 22 we're in the public hearing for opening -- 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, it's not a public 24 hearing. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we accept all bids 52 1 and refer them to Road and Bridge for recommendation. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 4 second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court approve -- 5 accept all bids for the purchase of the 1-ton truck with 6 aerial lift and for the lease of two motor graders, and 7 refer bids to the Road and Bridge Department for evaluation 8 and recommendation to the Commissioners Court. Any 9 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 10 right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Franklin, when do you and 17 Leonard think you'll be back to us? Do you think you can do 18 it today, or put it back on the next agenda? 19 MR. ODOM: I think we might be able to give 20 it back to you this morning. Let me take a look at it and 21 see. What time could you -- what time frame do we have? 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we'll be here the rest 23 of this morning. Then we have an agenda item for 1 o'clock 24 this afternoon, so we'll be here after lunch, as well. 25 MR. ODOM: How about we say about 1 o'clock? 53 1 That way I could put it on -- put it on computer and take a 2 look. Looks like we only have a few bids right here, so I 3 think we can make a decision. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. 5 MR. ODOM: We can be back by 1 o'clock, if 6 not sooner. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, very good. Thanks a 8 lot. 9 MR. ODOM: Thank you. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: The next item is Item Number 11 7, and at this time we will recess the Commissioners Court 12 meeting and open the public hearing for the 2001 LLEBG 13 grant. 14 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:07 a.m., and a public hearing 15 was held in open court, as follows:) 16 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sheriff, why don't you give 18 us a brief -- very brief description of what this grant is 19 about? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'll do that. But also, 21 I was just handed what y'all might want to have, which is 22 supposedly a response from T.N.R.C.C. on your last agenda 23 item, where it was sent back. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where did you get 25 that? 54 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A little birdie gave it 2 to me. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. We're in the public 4 hearing. What do you have? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. What this is is 6 our LLEBG grant that we apply for each year. This year, due 7 to the amount of funds and the crime rate in the county, it 8 was supposed to be split between us and the City of 9 Kerrville Police Department, so the part we applied for in 10 it is $6,000. We have already had the hearing with the four 11 members that we have to select to have a hearing for it. 12 That has been done. It has been advertised in the paper and 13 everything else, so we're at the point of any public 14 response. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is there any member of the 16 public who'd like to address the Court on the issue of the 17 2001 LLEBG grant? 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Once again, is there any 20 member of the public who'd like to address the Court during 21 the public hearing on the issue of the 2001 LLEBG grant? 22 Seeing none, we'll close the public hearing and reconvene 23 the Commissioners Court meeting. 24 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:10 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 25 meeting was reopened.) 55 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item for consideration 2 is Item Number 8, consider and discuss approval or rejection 3 of the 2001 LLEBG grant. Sheriff? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would just ask that 5 the Court approve it so that we can go ahead and make our 6 draw-down of the $6,000. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 10 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court 11 approve receipt of the 2001 LLEBG grant. Any further 12 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 13 right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Sheriff. Do you 20 want to tell Mr. Coates out there we're going to do Item 21 Number 11 next? 22 (Discussion off the record.) 23 MR. NEWMAN: I can do this. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: You'll take it for him? 25 Court will call Item Number 11, which is consider and 56 1 discuss a court order requesting Kerr County Appraisal 2 District to provide certain data to Grantworks for purposes 3 of mapping county infrastructure and housing to meet 4 specifications of the Comprehensive Colonia Planning Grant. 5 Commissioner Williams. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is a request 7 that came from Grantworks, from Gabi Ramirez, who does the 8 work for certain pieces of data that are -- mapping data 9 which are in the possession of -- of K.C.A.D. And they had 10 also requested a -- a letter to them indicating that this 11 information would be used only for the purposes specified 12 and so forth, so there we are. 13 MR. NEWMAN: All we would ask -- we would 14 like a letter from Grantworks -- well, we already stated 15 that they would use this information, but we need to also -- 16 need also a letter stating specifically what they need so 17 that we can better fulfill their requirements. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have that letter. 19 MR. NEWMAN: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll see that you get 21 it. 22 MR. NEWMAN: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And it does do as you 24 had requested, the -- used for the sole purpose of Kerr 25 County's Comprehensive Colonia Plan, and for no other 57 1 purpose. 2 MR. NEWMAN: I just needed -- we want to make 3 sure that the Court is aware that our data is currently 4 incomplete, and not really at a point for public release. 5 We're still trying to get the county completed, and -- don't 6 get me wrong. We're willing to cooperate in any way, shape, 7 or form. This is public data, and we realize that. But we 8 just want to specifically, you know, help them or help the 9 Court as well as possible. And -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. It was my 11 plan, upon approval by the Court, to send you a copy of the 12 court order and a copy of this letter, which was from Debbie 13 Ramirez, which gives you the disclaimer, all that stuff that 14 you want. 15 MR. NEWMAN: Okay. This also could have been 16 something that we might could have done and saved the Court 17 a little bit of money. If -- if, in the future, you have 18 another plan such as this, you might think about that. We 19 might be able to help y'all. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good. 21 MR. NEWMAN: With our mapping system. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of course, we didn't 23 spend any money on it. We received a grant of $90,000 to do 24 this, so -- 25 MR. NEWMAN: Okay. 58 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But I appreciate 2 that. 3 MR. NEWMAN: I would say that we have one of 4 the better mapping systems of any appraisal district in the 5 state. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good. 911 might -- 7 you want to call them up and talk to them a little bit. 8 MR. NEWMAN: Okay. 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mr. Newman, thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I would move 12 that the Court approve the request -- approve directing a 13 request to Kerr County Appraisal District to provide certain 14 data to Grantworks for purposes of mapping infrastructure 15 and housing to meet the specifications of the colonia -- 16 Comprehensive Colonia Planning Grant. And, I have those and 17 will forward those with a court order to Mr. Newman. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 20 Williams, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 21 approve an order requesting Kerr County Appraisal District 22 to provide certain data to Grantworks for purpose of the 23 mapping county infrastructure and housing to meet the 24 specifications of the Comprehensive Colonia Planning Grant, 25 with the specifics to be provided by Commissioner Williams 59 1 of the information required. Any further questions or 2 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll forward it out 8 to you. 9 MR. NEWMAN: Look forward to hearing from 10 you. Y'all take care. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Appreciate it. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's go ahead and take up 14 Item Number 12 before we have the break for the ceremony. 15 Item 12 is consider and discuss the Kerr County Rabies and 16 Animal Control order and definition and meaning of 17 "restrained" in Section 4.1. Commissioner Griffin. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. I put this on 19 the agenda primarily to get the clarification. I see that 20 Marc is here, and maybe you can help us with it. This was 21 triggered by a couple of events that happened in two 22 different subdivisions in west Kerr County where people 23 were -- were walking their dogs in a public right-of-way on 24 a county road, with the dogs leashed, and dogs came from 25 properties that laid along the road, attacked the dog, and 60 1 in one case got tangled up with the owner in one incident, 2 as well. 3 MR. ALLEN: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: When the -- that 5 particular owner checked with Animal Control, they were 6 referred to Section 4.1, which talks about restraint of 7 animals and so on, and there is a sentence in there that's a 8 little bit confusing, and I think it could be interpreted a 9 number of ways. 10 MR. ALLEN: That's our problem, is all the 11 J.P.'s interpreted this a little bit different. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 13 MR. ALLEN: But it says physically located on 14 the property of the owner or custodian. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. Or under the 16 direct control, which means if -- and, obviously, if I'm -- 17 if I'm on my property and I got my dog, and the dog responds 18 to me, he's under my direct -- he or she is under my direct 19 control. No problem. But the minute that dog leaves my 20 property, with me yelling at him maybe, and attacks somebody 21 in a public right-of-way or on their property -- 22 MR. ALLEN: That's a violation. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's a violation. 24 And I think that since this order is 10 years old -- it was 25 amended, I think, once in there, but it's a 10-year-old 61 1 order, and I think the statute has probably changed. I've 2 seen a number of amendments. I haven't gone through them 3 all. That we probably ought to ask the County Attorney's 4 office to take a look at the order in general, and 5 particularly to take a look at that paragraph in our order, 6 because it's confusing. 7 MR. ALLEN: I agree. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And could be 9 interpreted several different ways. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What could be? 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right now, that if -- 12 in the event that -- that a dog runs off of somebody's 13 property and attacks someone or another animal or -- that's 14 properly leashed, or that individual, that is a violation of 15 the order. 16 MR. ALLEN: That's correct. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: As it stands. And we 18 just need to clarify that for everybody, and I'll get back 19 to the people that are involved in these incidents. Now, 20 the question -- 21 MR. ALLEN: Physically located on the 22 property. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. Now, if they're 24 physically located on the property, I don't think anybody 25 has any question. 62 1 MR. ALLEN: Is that a violation? I mean -- 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No. If I'm on 3 somebody else's property and their dog gets me, that's my 4 problem. 5 MR. ALLEN: But the way the order reads, 6 physically restrained by a leash, fence, pen, or other 7 device. And you go to (2), it says physically located on 8 the property of the owner or custodian, or supervised by and 9 under the direct control of the owner or the custodian. So, 10 if it's physically located on the property and it's not 11 restrained by a fence or a leash, then that's not a 12 violation. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's not a 14 violation. 15 MR. ALLEN: Once it crosses the property 16 line, it is. So, a lot of times we have to stake out these 17 houses and wait for the dog to come across the property 18 line. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 20 MR. ALLEN: 'Cause we know it's a problem; we 21 just can't catch it. We have to catch it off the property 22 and see it before we can actually do anything about it. 23 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. And I 24 understand that. And, my question, though, is what happens 25 if -- if someone is attacked by a dog in a public 63 1 right-of-way? Do they have an avenue to complain? I mean, 2 who do they go to? Do they go to the Sheriff's Department? 3 Do they go -- 4 MR. ALLEN: Animal Control. 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: They go to you to 6 complain. And then I think that owner has to be -- owner or 7 custodian has to be warned or something, because right now, 8 there is no mechanism -- 9 MR. ALLEN: We could declare the dog 10 dangerous. I mean, there is a dangerous dog law. If the 11 dog attacks somebody and it's unprovoked, off of its 12 property, we can declare it dangerous, but the complainant 13 has to come in, fill out an affidavit, and be willing to 14 testify in court. Most of the people don't want to get 15 involved. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 17 MR. ALLEN: That's a big problem. I mean, if 18 they don't want to testify, then there's nothing we can do. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Pending a review of 20 the whole order, I think the clarification that I -- I would 21 just like to get now is that if -- if a person is in a 22 public right-of-way or on their property and a dog comes out 23 of somebody else's property and attacks them or their animal 24 that's properly leashed, that is a violation of the order. 25 That's all I'm -- 64 1 MR. ALLEN: Or we could amend this order and 2 get rid of the "physically located on the property" part. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. It is -- it's 4 a little ambiguous, and it could be interpreted several 5 ways. And, as long as somebody's got their dogs or other 6 animals on their property, that's fine. We're not talking 7 about that. It's when they go on somebody else's property 8 or when they come into a public right-of-way. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Could I make a comment? 10 The one where, under Number 2, it says "physically located 11 on the property of the owner," that's fine. But then it 12 says "or custodian, or supervised and under the direct 13 control of the owner or custodian." So that means that it 14 doesn't even have to be on the property. 15 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: See, that's the way it 16 gets interpreted. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's the way it's 18 written. 19 MR. ALLEN: It wouldn't have to be on the 20 property if it's supervised by another person. 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And I don't think that 22 was the intent of the order. I mean, it doesn't -- I just 23 don't think that was the intent of the order. 24 MR. ALLEN: We drive down the road. If the 25 dog's in the yard, not bothering anybody, we don't do 65 1 anything. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sure. 3 MR. ALLEN: Most cities and counties are a 4 little stricter than that. They want them restrained to the 5 property. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: As long as they're on 7 the property, fine. Once they cross the line is where I'm 8 saying the violation occurs. 9 MR. ALLEN: Well, we wait on them to cross 10 that line. So, if we know -- if we get multiple complaints 11 on that dog, we know it's leaving, we got to sit out there 12 and wait for it to cross the property line. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And if that owner's 14 walking that dog down the road without the dog being on a 15 leash, as long as that dog's supervised by the owner, he's 16 on a public right-of-way, under that law it's not a 17 violation. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Technically, I think 19 that's the way it reads, and I don't think that was the 20 intent of the order. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would agree that the -- 22 on (2), that everything after that "or" should be deleted. 23 That cleans it up. But, I think you want to leave that (2) 24 there. I mean -- 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh, yeah, sure. Sure. 66 1 'Cause if they're on the property, that's fine. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the problem still is 3 going to be that if the people aren't willing to testify, 4 it's not reasonable to think that road -- that Animal 5 Control is going to actually see the animal off the 6 property. The people have to testify if they want something 7 to be done. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Absolutely. 9 MR. ALLEN: And, we do go out and warn the 10 people, whether we see the dog off the property or not. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. And that's 12 fine. I don't have any problem with that. It's just that I 13 think we really need to review this, and I would make a 14 motion that we ask the County Attorney to review the -- 15 review this, because I think we'd have to have a public 16 hearing to change it. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Only reason I -- I 18 don't want to laugh when you say that, but we've had the -- 19 we've had something referred to the County Attorney's office 20 for -- three months? Four months, Marc? On the last thing 21 referred down there, which is -- 22 MR. ALLEN: Well, we've had a change in 23 attorneys since then, too. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean, I don't have 25 a problem with doing that, but I think that the -- with 67 1 referring that down there, we need a pretty strong letter 2 that we want action, something to come back out of it, 3 because now we'll have two requests pending. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You might have the 5 opportunity to discuss that today. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I certainly have -- 8 intend to. 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would make -- I'll 10 make the motion that we request the County Attorney to 11 review the order to make sure it's in compliance with 12 current statutes, and specifically to address the ambiguity 13 in Paragraph 4.1. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 16 Griffin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court request 17 that the County Attorney review the current Kerr County 18 Rabies and Animal Control order for compliance with current 19 law, and particularly the definition or meaning of 20 "restrained" in Section 4.1. Any further questions or 21 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carried. 68 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That excludes my 2 killer beagle, doesn't it? She can go anywhere, do whatever 3 she wants to. 4 MR. ALLEN: She's an easy catch, too. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Franklin, do you have a -- do 6 you have a recommendation for us? Have you had -- 7 MR. JOHNSTON: No, Leonard's taking a look at 8 it. We'll have it back by 1:00. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: We're going to take a recess 10 here. I'll remind everyone of the ceremony at 10:30 on the 11 south steps of the courthouse to kick off Red Ribbon Week, 12 and let's reconvene at a quarter till 11:00. 13 (Recess taken from 10:26 a.m. to 10:45 a.m.) 14 - - - - - - - - - - 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's 10:45 on Monday, 16 October 22, Year 2001. We'll reconvene the regular special 17 session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. Next item 18 for consideration is Item Number 13, which is consider and 19 discuss approval of proposed order requiring the 20 registration of dangerous wild animals, and set a public 21 hearing for same. I placed this back on the agenda. It was 22 my feeling, based our previous discussion, that the Court 23 was more disposed towards registration than prohibition. 24 The order that's been included in the packet is based on a 25 form of order which was sent out by Texas Association of 69 1 Counties. I'm not sure that a public hearing is actually 2 required for this action, but I think in light of the 3 subject matter, it would be prudent to have a public 4 hearing. I wanted to get the Court's input, and also for 5 Marc to give us some input as to where we need to go on 6 this. So, Marc, do you have anything you want to tell us 7 right off the start? 8 MR. ALLEN: Well, it's really up to you guys 9 if you want to -- I don't know that we have that many 10 dangerous wild animals here, but we've got a lot of people 11 that handle exotics, and they're going to want them. I 12 mean, it's big business to some of these guys. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, there are some 14 that are on the list, I know, that are kept in the county, 15 so we need to have something that -- since the law requires 16 us to. So, looks like it. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can't imagine a 18 reason for a public hearing, other than just providing 19 information to the public. I can't see -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Again, I don't believe a 21 public hearing is required by the statute, again, but it's 22 the kind of thing where I think we'd probably be better off 23 to schedule a public hearing. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: And my suggestion would be 70 1 that we do it on the 26th of November, which actually is an 2 evening meeting. The new law says that we have to have -- 3 MR. ALLEN: Something in place by December 1. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: A public hearing on the 26th, 5 and then take action on it immediately thereafter. Does 6 anyone have any questions about the registration versus 7 prohibition, or the form of the order that's included? At 8 this time, I'd entertain a motion to approve the proposed 9 order and set a public hearing for 7 o'clock p.m. on Monday, 10 November 26th. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 12 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 14 second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court approve the 15 proposed order requiring the registration of dangerous wild 16 animals, and set a public hearing for consideration of same 17 for 7 o'clock p.m. on Monday, November 26, Year 2001, here 18 in the Kerr County Courthouse. Any further questions or 19 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Item Number 24 14, consider and discuss the abatement of collections for 25 J.P. technology fund pending the Attorney General's opinion 71 1 on constitutionality of the legislation authorizing the 2 technology fund. As the Court remembers, we adopted the 3 order approving the technology fund back in August, I 4 believe; made it effective October 1st. From the materials 5 in the packet, the Tarrant County District Attorney has 6 raised a question as to the constitutionality of the new 7 law. The J.P.'s have talked to me about it. I'm not sure 8 there's a consensus among them as to what to do. They're 9 concerned that if we continue to collect the fee, and the 10 fee is ruled unconstitutional, they may be forced to rebate 11 the fee to people from whom it was collected during this 12 period. On the other hand, they're concerned that if we 13 don't continue to collect the fee and we go six, eight, nine 14 months without a resolution, then that is -- since the fee 15 is sunsetted at the end of four years by the Legislature, 16 they will have foregone, you know, that period of time of 17 collections. So, since the Court imposed the fee, it's up 18 to the Court to take action as to whether we should abate 19 the fee or continue to collect the fee, with the potential 20 of having to rebate the fee to those individuals from whom 21 it was collected and not authorized. So, what do y'all 22 think? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I -- maybe I'm 24 not reading this right, but it -- on the bottom of the 25 "Technology Fund Questioned" down here -- 72 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Correct. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- it refers to a 3 couple of Attorney General's opinions, and it goes through 4 it in the next to the last paragraph, and it says, "and thus 5 is unconstitutional." I mean, it -- 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Those are opinions that don't 7 relate to this fee. They're opinions that have been asked 8 for about the previous fees. So, the Attorney General has 9 not rendered an opinion directly about this fee. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This -- 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: The specific fee we're 12 talking about. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not HB177 that 14 we're dealing with today? 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So the question, I 18 guess, is if we don't abate the fee, then is there a -- is 19 there a simple way -- there never is a simple way, but a 20 relatively simple way to keep those funds from ag -- sort of 21 aggregated, separately? 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: They go into a special J.P. 23 technology fund now, the way it is, because they can only be 24 used for J.P. technology. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Right. 73 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: We didn't appropriate any of 2 those funds in this current fiscal year, because we hadn't 3 acquired them yet. I mean, the idea was to accumulate them 4 and then use them for J.P. technology needs in the next four 5 years, as necessary. Right now, the fees are being 6 collected and placed into a special fund. The issue 7 becomes, if the Attorney General renders an opinion that the 8 fee is -- that the legislation establishing the fee is 9 unconstitutional, and it flows out of that that the funds 10 should be refunded, then each J.P.'s office is going to have 11 to go back and determine from whom the fee was collected and 12 rebate that fee to those individuals, which is a clerical -- 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sure. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- you know, nightmare. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would -- I mean, and I 16 don't know -- only thing I know is what I read right here 17 about it, and assuming that what's here is correct, it 18 appears that it may very well be unconstitutional. And, 19 that being the case, I would think we should abate it, 20 because the costs -- and if we do have to refund it, the 21 cost of the check, the time -- it's going to cost us more, I 22 mean, probably $3 or $4 to refund $4 to each of these 23 people. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Good point. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think that it's -- 74 1 you know, it may not -- may even be a -- end up with a 2 negative impact on us if we don't abate it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we ought to 4 abate it, also. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: On the other hand -- and I'm 6 not arguing with you necessarily -- many of the fees that 7 are imposed are permissive. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: The courtroom security -- the 10 courthouse security fee is a permissive fee. Records 11 management fee is a permissive fee. So, I'm not sure that 12 the fact that one county can impose a fee -- it doesn't have 13 to make the legislation on that fee unconstitutional. But, 14 it may be prudent to -- to abate the collection at this 15 time, and if we don't have an answer in three or four 16 months, we may want to -- may want to revisit it, because 17 there's no way to go back and recapture those funds. And, 18 so -- 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Since there is case 20 law, it looks like -- I would expect that the Attorney 21 General might rule rather quickly -- or as quickly as they 22 might. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, his policy, as we all 24 know, is that he wants to render an opinion within 60 days 25 of receipt of the request. I'm not exactly sure when this 75 1 was submitted, but assuming it was around October 1, then, 2 you know, by the end of the year we should have a -- a 3 determination. So -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Abatement. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would move we abate 6 the J.P. technology fee pending a response from the Attorney 7 General with respect to its legality or constitutionality. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 10 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court abate 11 the collection of the J.P. technology fund fee pending the 12 Attorney General's opinion on the constitutionality of the 13 legislation creating such a fee. Any further questions or 14 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. At this 19 time, I think we'll go to Item Number 16, which is an 20 introduction of the new extension part-time employee. Eddie 21 Holland. Welcome, Eddie. 22 MR. HOLLAND: Good morning. Thank y'all very 23 much for having us. I would like to present to the Court a 24 magazine that just came out. This is our professional 25 magazine; The County Agent, they call it. They have 4,500 76 1 members, and this is the one that I'm currently serving as 2 president, and one of the reasons why we have our part-time 3 employee with us that's helping us out. But, this is a 4 magazine that just came out, and it has a -- someone you 5 might recognize on the cover. Anyway -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We need a signed copy. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Okay, yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Autographed. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Autographed. 10 MR. HOLLAND: We do thank y'all very much for 11 the opportunity to talk -- you know, Thea's kind of my old 12 partner on this. She really encouraged me -- how many years 13 ago was that, Thea? Long -- 14 MS. SOVIL: Long time, 16 -- 15 MR. HOLLAND: Long time to pursue this. And, 16 of course, now it is, you know, a reality, and I appreciate 17 the Court for allowing me the time off to -- to represent 18 the National Association of County Agricultural Agents and 19 still try to do my job, and -- and with the thanks of the 20 Court and the -- you know, the offering that you do supply; 21 even though you're not supplying the salary for this 22 position, the -- the office space and the telephone, the 23 clerical and all other support that goes into that. And, I 24 may be stealing Daryl's thunder now, but we do appreciate 25 your indulgence on this. Daryl? Daryl is my District 77 1 Extension Director of Agriculture out of Uvalde. Y'all met 2 Daryl before. I'll introduce Daryl at this time. 3 MR. DROMGOOLE: Morning. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good morning. 5 MR. DROMGOOLE: Thank y'all for having us. 6 Again, I wanted to be here today just to give y'all an 7 update of our program a little bit here in the county. 8 Eddie -- you know, good thing that Peggy's in that picture, 9 or we couldn't have put it on the cover. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: True. 11 MR. DROMGOOLE: But we -- we are extremely 12 pleased that Eddie is representing Texas as the national 13 president of the National Agricultural County Agents 14 Association. But, in doing so, we -- we wanted to provide 15 some support to Kerr County and enable Kerr County to 16 continue to have the high quality programs y'all have had in 17 the past and that y'all expect in the future. Therefore, we 18 had funded a part-time position through the -- for the 19 duration of Eddie's term as national president, to provide 20 some horticultural support to the program, which is an area 21 of the program that -- that is very time-consuming, very 22 demanding. 23 The person that we've -- we've hired and will 24 be assisting Eddie and the rest of the staff, and Amy and 25 Laurinda and the other staff members there in the Kerr 78 1 County office is Mr. John Coleman. John, stand up. John is 2 a -- is a longtime horticulturalist. He has been a longtime 3 resident here in Kerr County, has been a part of the 4 Extension Program Council, has been a part of Eddie's 5 volunteer group, has volunteered as a member of -- of the -- 6 of many projects that involve horticulture, and he has a 7 pretty -- pretty tough chore ahead of him in organizing a 8 Master Gardener program here in Kerr County, which will 9 extend our ability to reach more clientele with the same 10 amount of staff people we virtually -- that we have here in 11 the county at this time. 12 So, today we really wanted to come before the 13 Court and -- and officially thank y'all for providing the 14 support and guidance to our program that y'all provide. We 15 also wanted to thank you for being such a strong supporter 16 of -- of Eddie and -- as his -- in representing you in Kerr 17 County, as well as the Extension as a -- as a national 18 officer -- national president. Eddie's the second of only 19 two in the history of the Texas Agricultural Extension 20 Service's 86-year history to be an officer -- a president of 21 the national -- at the national level. So, we wanted to 22 thank y'all for providing him the latitude and the 23 assistance to do that, and then wanted to introduce you to 24 John and let y'all know that we have a -- even though 25 Eddie's going to be gone a lot, we have a full expectation 79 1 that our program will not only stay the high quality program 2 that it is now, but also improve in the future. So, I 3 appreciate y'all's support and thank y'all for your support 4 for the Extension programs. Anything y'all have for John? 5 MR. COLEMAN: You know, it almost seems 6 criminal that they're paying me to do something I dearly 7 love to do, really. 8 MR. DROMGOOLE: We can change that. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MR. COLEMAN: All joking aside, I'm very, 11 very happy to -- to join the organization there. I am a big 12 sponsor of native plants, as many of you know, very 13 concerned about water, and -- and am a big advocate of the 14 Master Gardener program which we're now just getting 15 involved in. I am on a number of organizations, including 16 one for the national -- excuse me, the Master Naturalist 17 program, and so we've got a lot of activity going on, and 18 it's really exciting. Thank you. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, sir. 20 MR. COLEMAN: If you have any questions, 21 please call on us. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone have any comments? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a comment after 24 -- after they get through with that particular item. Are 25 you through with that particular item? 80 1 MR. HOLLAND: Do you want to comment on 2 anything? B.L.T., the training you just went through, Amy? 3 She has been going through -- as a new employee, they always 4 go through all kind of different trainings, and so she has 5 been through several different trainings recently. I 6 thought she might make a comment -- a couple of program 7 comments. 8 MS. CHAPMAN: Okay. I've been actually 9 training for the last two weeks. I was in Dallas for part 10 of a good week, and then last week I was in College Station. 11 This Wednesday I'm looking forward to launching my Better 12 Living for Texans series. Better Living for Texans is a 13 program that targets food stamp recipients and food stamp 14 applicants to teach them about nutrition, stretching food 15 dollars, shopping savvy. That way these individuals are 16 using money to the best of their ability, and also to 17 prevent long-term diseases that are often associated with 18 poor nutrition, such as diabetes and heart disease. So, I'm 19 really looking forward to that. I have worked at forming a 20 very strong advisory board to go with the Better Living for 21 Texans program, and looking forward to doing that as well. 22 Other things that I'll be doing, this 23 weekend -- actually, I was telling my boss, Ms. Mapston, 24 about starting up a new Extension education club that 25 targets young working mothers. Right now, most of the 81 1 members in this club are women who are getting up there in 2 years, and some of them are saying, "Oh, I'm getting so old 3 I can't do stuff." And I think that, you know, to get the 4 membership going, we can really use a lot of young women in 5 our clubs. A lot of us are working and we know how 6 important it is to foster a good, strong home life, and 7 that's pretty much what E.E.A. does, is -- is teach and 8 support family members in doing this. Not only serving 9 their family, but also the community and community volunteer 10 service. So, that's something else I'm doing. And then we 11 also have the 4-H Food and Nutrition show coming up 12 November 10th, so I'm under way making plans for that. If 13 any of you want to be, you know, food judges, let me know. 14 You can sample some tasty food items. So, thank you very 15 much. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Amy, are you in touch with 17 the -- with Gaylyn Schandua at the Texas Workforce 18 Commission? You know, with regard to the people who are on 19 food stamps and welfare, through that program? 20 MS. CHAPMAN: I have someone else from Texas 21 Workforce that's my contact person, but I'll make sure that 22 I contact that individual as well. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Gaylyn Schandua is Director 24 of the local Texas Workforce Commission office over in One 25 Schreiner Center. 82 1 MS. CHAPMAN: Okay. All right. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: And, also, are you in touch 3 with the adult -- oh, the -- the family support people at 4 the Texas Department of Protection and Regulatory Services? 5 MS. CHAPMAN: Yes. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. So, you're plugged in 7 though them, okay. 8 MS. CHAPMAN: Yes. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: I hear good things about your 10 program, so keep it up. 11 MS. CHAPMAN: Oh, thank you very much. 12 MR. HOLLAND: Yeah, I think she's a regular 13 on the speaker circuit now. She is -- you know, as the new 14 person coming in, you know, they've got her -- I think she 15 had three she's doing this week, you know, so she's very 16 active doing that. But, again, thank y'all on the court. 17 We appreciate all the support you have given us over the 18 years, and if y'all need anything, let us know. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you very much, Eddie. 20 And, John, welcome. 21 MR. HOLLAND: And we're going to meet with 22 Buster -- not to exclude y'all, the County Judge and 23 Commissioners. He serves on that committee planning, and 24 there's another one of those meetings. So, Daryl has to go 25 on to College Station; he's not going to be here, but Cheryl 83 1 is going to be here and she works on the planning committee, 2 and Amy, and so we're going to meet with Buster at lunch and 3 do that. But -- 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good. 5 MR. HOLLAND: Excuse me. Thank y'all. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to talk about 8 that a little bit, about what we're doing here. Do you 9 remember that I have had a concern for some time about some 10 of these real small counties being able to go to the 11 conventions and getting their training and their hours and 12 representing the public? Well, these good folks and I are 13 going to sit down today and begin the planning process of 14 doing more of the regional -- small, regional workshops. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we're going to 17 start down in Uvalde, huh, Cheryl? And we've been having 18 them down there for a while, but we want to really crank 19 that thing up and provide a place for some of these rural 20 counties to go to. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's good. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Excellent. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what we're 25 doing at lunch today. 84 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Excellent. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, Daryl, you're not 3 going to be there? 4 MR. DROMGOOLE: I worked hard to get out of 5 that. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We'll have to do this 7 before you leave. 8 MR. HOLLAND: That's what I thought. It's 9 going to be on me. 10 MR. DROMGOOLE: She's got a better credit 11 card than I do. 12 MR. HOLLAND: Thank y'all. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank y'all very much. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See you in a little 15 while. Take care. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's go back now and take up 17 Item Number 15, which is consider and discuss approval of 18 the agreement between the City of Kerrville and Kerr County 19 for use of the Hotel Occupancy Tax revenues for improvement 20 of the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center and authorize 21 the County Judge to sign same. Does anyone have any 22 questions regarding this agreement, which provides the 23 County with certain of the hotel/motel tax revenues for 24 purposes of improving the kitchen facilities out at the Ag 25 Barn? 85 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have any 2 questions about the agreement, per se. I would like to hear 3 a little bit more about what Mr. Holekamp's plan is. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, he hasn't -- he doesn't 5 seem to be here at this point. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He was out there a 7 while ago. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I would ask the 9 rhetorical question, just for the record, that this is not 10 any new tax money. That's correct. This is tax money 11 that's already being collected. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hotel/motel tax. 13 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's already being 14 collected, and that these funds will be used from that 15 existing tax. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They'll be 17 distributed by the City. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So, it's not a new 19 tax. I want to make sure everybody understands. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we approve the 21 agreement and authorize County Judge to sign same. 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 24 second by Commissioner Griffin, that the Court approve the 25 agreement between the City of Kerrville and the County of 86 1 Kerr for use of Hotel Occupancy Tax revenues for 2 improvements and authorize the County Judge to sign the 3 same. Any further questions or comments? If not, all in 4 favor, raise your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Delayed question I had. 9 Bill, do you know the total amount that they give -- divide 10 up? How big that pile was? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. It's pretty 12 close to -- I thought it was pretty close to three-quarters 13 of a million. C.V.B. gets the biggest bite out of it. They 14 get about $485,000. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somewhere in there. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. The next item for 18 consideration is Item Number 17, which is from the County 19 Attorney, as is Item Number 18. Thea, would you mind going 20 and calling the County Attorney's office and see if they're 21 going to show up this morning or not? Let's go off the 22 record here till she gets back. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 MS. SOVIL: He's on his way. 25 (Discussion off the record.) 87 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, back on the record. 2 The next item for consideration is Item Number 17, consider 3 and discuss possible action to be taken on the issue of the 4 as yet unsubmitted FEMA study required for recordation of 5 the final plat of Buckhorn Lake Resort. Mr. Motley, what do 6 you have for us on this? 7 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I've looked at Chapter 232 8 of the Local Government Code; in particular, Title 7, 9 Subtitle B, Subchapter A, and it has to do with subdivision 10 platting requirements in general. And, it generally does, 11 of course, require a plat, and it says also that 12 Commissioners Court of the county in which the land is 13 located must approve, by order entered in the minutes of the 14 court, a plat required by Section 232.001, and may refuse to 15 approve a plat if it doesn't meet the requirements 16 prescribed by or under this chapter, or if any bond required 17 under this chapter is not filed with the county. 18 Commissioners Court may not approve the plat unless the plat 19 and other documents has been prepared, as required by 20 232.0035, if applicable. 21 Anyway, my understanding of this is that 22 there was a conditional approval on the plat based on some 23 more work that was being required by FEMA, and the extent of 24 the work was not known at the time, if I'm correct on that. 25 And so the thing was approved, kind of on the assumption or 88 1 the belief that it would be fixed up later, and it wasn't. 2 And, my understanding is that the subdivider is -- is not 3 willing to do any more in the way of improvement to satisfy 4 the County and to satisfy FEMA. It's, again, my 5 understanding. Now, one of the things -- I don't know if 6 this is one of these situations where our insurance, through 7 FEMA, is in jeopardy. I don't know enough about it to know 8 that. But -- and I'm not aware if there was a bond of any 9 sort given in this case, and so those are things I don't 10 have the information on. And, as far as remedies that can 11 be taken, I think that's really what y'all wanted to know. 12 There are several remedies that are in line, 13 again, with that same Chapter 232. The -- and I don't know, 14 'cause it's my understanding that the sale of these 15 subdivided lots is ongoing. Commissioners Court can file an 16 action to enjoin. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Time out. This is not a 18 situation where lots are being sold. 19 MR. MOTLEY: Pardon? 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is not a situation where 21 lots are being sold. This is an R.V. park. 22 MR. MOTLEY: An R.V. park. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is that correct, Larry? 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Platting was required to 89 1 do the roads that were put in. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Roads and the septic. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And septic. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And the septic and 5 drainage study. 6 MR. MOTLEY: Say that last thing again. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: And drainage. Right, 8 Franklin? That was -- that's the only -- 9 MR. JOHNSTON: Drainage. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: -- only thing they 11 were hung up on. And, the preliminary plat was approved -- 12 correct me if I'm wrong -- was approved on the condition 13 that the FEMA study would be -- all the FEMA requirements 14 would be met before a final plat was approved. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Actually, I think the 16 preliminary plat was conditionally approved subject to -- 17 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'm sorry. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- doing a drainage study. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: Not to be signed or filed 20 until the drainage study -- 21 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I'm sorry, not the 22 preliminary, the final. And what happened is -- is that 23 that was the end of anything. I mean, we haven't heard 24 anything back, so the plat was never signed or filed, the 25 final plat. So, we have a subdivision in operation that has 90 1 not been approved in final form and recorded. 2 MR. MOTLEY: When you say it's in operation, 3 what do you mean? 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The R.V. park is 5 there. The construction was done, roads were put in. 6 MR. MOTLEY: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Drainage study wasn't 8 finished. That's the whole -- 9 MR. MOTLEY: When you say that -- 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So the plat's never 11 been signed and recorded. 12 MR. MOTLEY: By "R.V. park," are we talking 13 about a manufactured housing rental community? Or are these 14 just lots to be sold? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These are rental, like -- 16 you know, like Guadalupe Park out on -- 17 MR. MOTLEY: Okay, I understand. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Pull your R.V. up in 19 it and hook up. 20 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I believe it was, 21 nonetheless -- I mean, I believe it did involve dividing 22 land, and I think it would come under the definition of a 23 subdivision. I think. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yes. 25 MR. MOTLEY: It has been platted, and if 91 1 something -- you know, and I would say that if you have a 2 condition that has not been met, condition preceding to 3 issuing a final approval of plat, then, you know, it seems 4 to me that they haven't properly platted the property. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: What can we do, though? Can 6 we get an injunction keeping them from operating the R.V. 7 park? 8 MR. MOTLEY: Well, that's what I was about to 9 talk about. The options are that the Court can enjoin a 10 violation or threatened violation of a requirement 11 established by or adopted by the Commissioners Court, could 12 recover damages, or recover damages in an amount adequate 13 for the County to undertake any construction or other 14 activity necessary to bring about compliance with the 15 requirement established by or adopted by the Commissioners. 16 There is also criminal sanction. A person commits an 17 offense when the person knowingly or intentionally violates 18 a requirement established by or adopted by the Commissioners 19 Court under preceding section of this chapter. It's a Class 20 B misdemeanor, which would allow up to six months in jail 21 and $2,000 -- and/or $2,000 fine. Let's see. I'm trying to 22 find -- and that's as far as enforcement, I mean, so there's 23 three options there, it seems to me. There is also -- well, 24 there's a possibility that the owner himself could cancel 25 the subdivision, but I don't see any provision where the 92 1 Commissioners Court could do that, sort of over the -- over 2 the owner's objection or anything like that. Let's see. 3 Hold on just a minute. When was this plat -- I mean the 4 conditional one, when was it filed? 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Franklin, do you remember? 6 21 April 2000? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: April 2000. I think the way 8 it's designed and set up, if the plat's canceled, I don't 9 think the septic system will meet the current rules. It's 10 designed in, I think, five lots to meet the minimum -- 5,000 11 gallon, wasn't it? If it's all one lot, it wouldn't meet 12 that requirement. 13 MR. MOTLEY: I'm going to have to do a -- 14 maybe a little bit more looking about this business about 15 the cancellation of the -- 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Well, I don't -- 17 MR. MOTLEY: -- of the plat. 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: We don't want to -- I 19 don't think we want to do that. I think what we would do 20 is -- what about on the basis of the -- see, it has to be 21 platted to operate those septic systems. It -- and is there 22 any way we could perhaps enjoin or -- or get an injunction 23 to say that you can't operate -- you can't operate it as an 24 R.V. park because there's no septic system approved there? 25 MR. MOTLEY: Well -- 93 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The way it is. 2 MR. JOHNSTON: Technically, it's not platted 3 till its filed. 4 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It's not platted till 5 it's filed. 6 MR. MOTLEY: It's really a conditional deal. 7 And, I -- I'm not sure if there was some big rush or 8 something to get it under way or -- 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: It was, I think. 10 MR. MOTLEY: -- what the deal was. But, 11 again, it says can enjoin the violation or threatened 12 violation of a requirement established by the Commissioners 13 Court or adopted by the Commissioners Court. So -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why don't we just -- I 15 mean, if you want to send them a letter saying the Court's 16 going to either file an injunction or misdemeanor charges if 17 you don't do this, get that going, and then we can figure 18 out -- 19 MR. MOTLEY: Sure. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, at least get 21 something done. 22 MR. MOTLEY: Under a separate civil action, 23 again, one of the options is recover damages in an amount 24 adequate for the County to undertake any construction or 25 other activity necessary to bring about compliance with the 94 1 requirement established by our -- 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's not where we 3 are. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a study being done 5 by a consulting engineering firm, so we don't have any 6 capability of doing it. 7 MR. MOTLEY: The County could pay for that 8 and then try to get their money back, but I don't see that 9 as being a very -- I don't think that's the best option. 10 But, in any event, I'd be happy to send a letter to that 11 effect and just advise this person that the -- that 12 injunctive relief is available, and that also criminal 13 penalties are possible. And, I don't -- you know, I 14 mentioned bond earlier. I don't think bond is a 15 requirement. I mean, I don't -- and I don't believe there 16 was a bond in this case. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: That would be if the -- if 18 the plat was finally approved, we could get a maintenance 19 bond for a year on the roads, but we never got to that 20 point. 21 MR. MOTLEY: Well, you know, and I -- 22 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think the letter 23 would be a great first step, and just tell him what the deal 24 is, is that, you know, it's -- we have to either seek 25 injunctive relief or criminal. 95 1 MR. MOTLEY: There's -- there is this other 2 section, 232.002; it says that -- under Subsection B, it 3 says, Court may not approve a plat unless the plat and other 4 documents had been prepared as required. It's -- this plat 5 was really never approved. It was very preliminary. I 6 mean, isn't that accurate? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It would have been 8 approved. He did not follow the drainage study -- or did 9 not meet the drainage requirements of our rules. 10 MR. MOTLEY: I mean, this was just a 11 step-by-step kind of procedure, and he just didn't go the 12 last step. So, I mean, there's no way that anybody could 13 contend that that is an approved plat, because it had -- it 14 stopped at his own choosing. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Never been signed. 16 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Never been signed by 17 the Judge, and it's never been recorded. 18 MR. MOTLEY: It's not filed, right. 19 MS. SOVIL: Don't we have a rule that says 20 after one year, preliminary plats expire and they have to 21 refile? And this was done in April of 2000. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that's right. 23 MR. JOHNSTON: Final plat just with the -- 24 with a prohibition on it. 25 MS. SOVIL: But it's been more than a year. 96 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If they didn't meet the 2 requirements under the preliminary, the preliminary expires, 3 they need to go back -- they have to go back to square one 4 if we don't give an extension for that year. That's true. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I think the letter's in 6 order telling him that, you know, if they don't -- if they 7 don't satisfy the requirements of the Court with regard to 8 final plat approval, the Court's going to authorize the 9 County Attorney to seek injunctive and/or criminal penalties 10 against the owner. We probably ought to send a copy of that 11 letter to T.N.R.C.C., too, since they're the ones who 12 approved the septic. This is a commercial septic, so they 13 approved it, as opposed to our Designated Representative. 14 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think it's 15 Aquasource -- 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, but they got approved 17 under that -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: The fact that it was 19 subdivided as such so that they could stay less than 20 5,000 gallons in each one. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: But it was the T.N.R.C.C. who 22 approved the septic, not the County's Designated 23 Representative. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What exactly does the 25 injunction do? We just tell them that you can't function? 97 1 Or does the Sheriff go out there and lock the gate? Or -- I 2 mean, what exactly -- 3 MR. MOTLEY: You can enjoin them from -- from 4 using the property. I mean, the Court can issue a 5 prohibition -- the District Court can issue a prohibition 6 that says it's not going to be an R.V. park. You know, it's 7 not going to be anything, because I think inherent in that 8 also would be the belief that you could stop them from -- 9 our concern, or one of our concerns, is the septic systems. 10 And we don't know that they are going to be functioning 11 properly because of the failure to do the study that we 12 asked for. And so, I mean, as a public health -- a police 13 power involved, public health issue, and I think the 14 injunction could also include prohibitive from placing any 15 water, any waste into -- into the septic systems located on 16 the -- on the property. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you say all those 18 things in your letter? In your first letter? 19 MR. MOTLEY: I don't know what I say. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just wondering. 21 MR. MOTLEY: I mean, I'll give y'all a copy 22 of it, you know. I'd be happy to run it by you if y'all 23 would like to -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just send us -- I would 25 say send the letter and give us a copy. 98 1 MR. MOTLEY: Sure, that's fine. That will be 2 fine. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, great. Next item is 4 Item Number 18, approve -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we need action on 6 that, or just use his prerogative to send the letter? 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think we can let him do 8 that. Next item is Item Number 18, consider and discuss 9 approving the salary for position of new Assistant County 10 Attorney at $37,668. This will be a 27, Step 2, as opposed 11 to a 27, Step 1. Do you have a candidate in mind to justify 12 the step up, or where are we? 13 MR. MOTLEY: No, we don't have a candidate in 14 mind. We were hoping we would have a candidate for the 15 position, but we've -- we don't have one. We've had 16 basically three, and really, if you think about it, four 17 people turned the position down who were very interested in 18 the position. They were all taking substantial -- would 19 have to take from $8,000 to $10,000 cut in pay to come do 20 the job, and they just weren't that interested in it. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 22 MR. MOTLEY: I'm having a difficult time, and 23 so we're going to have to start a new -- you know, advertise 24 and do the thing all over again, see if we get some other 25 folks. It's a bad time of year to be getting somebody in 99 1 who's licensed, you know. So, in about another two months 2 maybe, at the earliest, we would have a lot of people who 3 graduated in May; the bulk of them would take their bar exam 4 in November and get their results within a month or two, so 5 December, January, it would be a prime time to hire somebody 6 that's fresh out of law school. We were looking at people 7 who are already established in other prosecution offices, 8 and the -- the salary -- the salary is -- we just -- like I 9 said, one of the ones that -- well, my leading candidate was 10 a young lady who has been out of law school since May of 11 2000. When I approached her -- it was about a month ago, so 12 that's June, July, August, September -- about 17 months out 13 of law school. And, our starting pay is -- what she's 14 making now is $9,000 -- no, excuse me, $8,400 more than this 15 27-2. And, she's just -- she wants to come, but she 16 can't -- she can't justify, what with the student loans. 17 There's -- there's another issue, by the way, 18 y'all may not know about, but there was -- there was an 19 effort in the State Legislature this year to make certain 20 prosecutors in rural areas -- make their loans -- college 21 loans and such sort of forgiven, and that the State would 22 make up the payments for the loans. And, although the 23 legislation passed, it was not funded, and so there's no 24 money to do that, and so that's probably not going to 25 happen. A lot of people were interested in coming to Kerr 100 1 County, because it just met the criteria as a rural county 2 under that legislation, but without it being -- and a lot of 3 people were interested in the job for that, but when it 4 became clear it wasn't funded, they're facing large loan 5 payments for college education, and they really won't be 6 able to make a living. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: David, what's the 8 increase from a 27-1 to a 27-2? 9 MR. MOTLEY: Oh, you know, I don't have an 10 updated chart. I would imagine it's probably, you know, 2, 11 2 1/2 percent. 12 MS. SOVIL: Two and a half percent. 13 MR. MOTLEY: Two and a half. That's what I'm 14 thinking, 2 1/2. So, let me also say that of -- virtually 15 every prosecutor we've hired in this office for maybe as far 16 back as 10 years, with the exception of three people that I 17 can think of, were hired in at $35,000, and only the most 18 recent hire did we have -- was he -- was he able to take 19 advantage of a COLA that was given to the person who held 20 the job previously. We dropped back every time we got a new 21 prosecutor -- and I'm talking about, you know, entry-level 22 prosecutors -- to $35,000. It's been that salary for -- 23 well, I mean, it goes back to Libby Wiedermann, and then two 24 of the others were below $30,000. So, as far back as I can 25 remember, something like 28 or 26 for two of them. I can 101 1 only think of one prosecutor we've hired over that, which 2 was Ilse, and she's -- she had quite a bit of experience. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. So -- 4 MR. MOTLEY: And Jerry. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, at this time, this first 6 request is not timely, so we'll go on to the second item, 7 which is consider an increase in the salary of both 8 assistant attorney positions to bring them in line with the 9 Nash study prepared back in June of 2000. 10 MR. MOTLEY: I don't have the Nash study in 11 front of me, but I know that when that study was 12 published -- I believe it was finished in June, and perhaps 13 delivered in August, something like that. But I think that 14 the study was finished in June. It was using budget data, 15 as I understand it, from the fiscal year preceding 16 2000/2001. I mean, it was probably '99/2000. And, it said 17 that the Assistant County Attorney position was a poor 18 opportunity, and at that point it recommended a salary 19 between -- it was about $39,500 for the entry-level 20 position. We're not close to that. And, I don't know what 21 that position would be if you were to sort of bring it up to 22 current value, but 39,5 at that point in time, using the 23 previous year's salary figures -- you know, we might do a 24 little bit better if we can pay some more money for the 25 positions. 102 1 All around us, really -- and, I mean, I know 2 we don't directly compete with Bexar County, but Bexar 3 County certainly doesn't mind hiring our prosecutors here 4 away from us. But, Bexar County, Guadalupe County, they're 5 all over $45,000 for entry-level positions, right out of law 6 school, and it's hard when we're that far below to -- to 7 compete. You have to -- in order to get somebody to take 8 the job at the salary we can pay, they have to have another 9 motivation for coming here. They have to have family here; 10 something else typically has to motivate them to come here. 11 And Kerrville has a lot of other motivating factors -- I 12 mean Kerr County does. So, I mean -- but we've not found 13 anybody that was motivated by other factors so far, and we 14 have been trying in earnest. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Comments? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- from just a 17 budget standpoint, I just can't go in and amend the budget 18 and the salary structure at basically the second meeting of 19 the month. We've got a -- we've got to follow our budget. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is an item that's really 21 not timely, because even if we were to amend the salary 22 structure, there are no funds appropriated for that salary, 23 and it would be an exercise that would not have any validity 24 until at least next budget year. So, I don't think that 25 this request is timely presented. 103 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: David, I have a 2 question. 3 MR. MOTLEY: Sure. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We had made an 5 agreement a year or two ago with you that -- to hire that -- 6 to allow to you have a third attorney in your office if you 7 agreed to assign that person to the needs of the -- to the 8 Commissioners Court. Who will be that person? Do we have 9 an attorney down there that is assigned to the Commissioners 10 Court? 11 MR. MOTLEY: Well, we don't have a third 12 attorney. I mean, I guess you're looking at him. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, if you bring in 14 another attorney, then that person -- 15 MR. MOTLEY: Well, now, to be honest with 16 you, I can't say, because -- let me explain. I mean, some 17 of the people that I've talked to, their background is 18 primarily criminal prosecution, and some of the people have 19 done sort of a mixed type of -- or administrative law that 20 is a little bit more civil, and we've not really had anybody 21 show interest for the job that is -- you know, somebody 22 that's really had experience advising governmental bodies. 23 Ilse had that and Stan had that. Travis was specifically 24 interested in that. When we advertise the position, we 25 don't advertise it strictly with that job description. We 104 1 advertise it with a -- with a broad job description to be 2 able to do anything that comes up, and we all like to 3 cross-train so they can prosecute cases or go to the mental 4 health courts or juvenile, you know, whatever, because we're 5 not really big enough. And, frankly, the Commissioners 6 Court is not -- it's not such that it would take up 100 7 percent of a prosecutor's time. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely not. 9 MR. MOTLEY: So, they need to be able to do 10 something else, so we limit it to somebody who's been in an 11 advisory capacity. I had one lady in San Antonio who has 12 worked with the airport department of the City of San 13 Antonio, has done quite a bit of advising, and has also 14 worked in municipal court. And, they always -- she was able 15 to work under short notice and work with -- you know, in 16 unusual circumstances, kind of short-notice situations, and 17 pretty good on her feet and everything. And, I -- she came 18 over to be interviewed, and we called her back, and she was 19 being considered for a -- a promotion within her department, 20 and she didn't even call us back when we called her to see 21 if she was still interested. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know I, for one, as 23 a Commissioner here -- I mean, I really was spoiled by 24 Travis, his response time, his clarity of response, and -- 25 and the way he handled the situation. To me, he's just -- I 105 1 mean, I don't know how -- I don't know how the rest of the 2 Court would function with him, but I would hope that -- 3 because we've made that agreement with you, I'd hope that 4 we'd move in that direction. And, I know that's up to you 5 who you -- who you assign. I just -- I want to make sure 6 that we get somebody that takes care of us. 7 MR. MOTLEY: It may be that -- it may be 8 theoretically possible that we get somebody who's had a lot 9 of experience doing family violence, protective orders, 10 mental health and juvenile, and they take over those 11 functions, and I may move into some more prosecution, and 12 Jerry may come over and -- and do this work. I mean, he's 13 an accomplished attorney. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So you definitely will 15 assign somebody? 16 MR. MOTLEY: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I 17 will say that -- but even before Travis, I mean, I really 18 feel that like that the Court has had, I think, good 19 representation when we've -- we've -- you know, whoever it's 20 been. I mean, if you go back to Stan or if you want to talk 21 about Ilse, whoever y'all want to talk about, I think that 22 y'all have gotten high quality representation on basically 23 what's kind of a -- sort of a part-time job for that 24 position, if you follow what I'm saying. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I do. Okay. 106 1 Thank you. 2 MR. MOTLEY: I don't mean to in any way 3 denigrate the importance of the deal, but it's not something 4 that would take up 100 percent of an attorney's time to do 5 this. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, but some -- I just 7 want to -- I want to put that agreement back on the table 8 that we've had. 9 MR. MOTLEY: Oh, sure. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That there's time -- 11 MR. MOTLEY: No, my intention would be to do 12 exactly as we did the last time, which would be to have a 13 person -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Great. 15 MR. MOTLEY: -- or persons come in here and 16 attend the court sessions and try to get y'all as timely a 17 response as possible on the inquiries that y'all need to 18 know. And, one of the things Travis did was kind of 19 anticipate things in advance and sort of prepared for those 20 things in advance at home a lot of times, so he was able to 21 give quick answers like that. And, so -- but we miss him, 22 and I didn't want him to go, but I wish him the best. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Thank you. 24 MR. MOTLEY: Sure. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Leonard, do you have a 107 1 recommendation for us, sir? 2 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: White smoke out of the 4 chimney. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Let's call Item Number 6, 6 then, which is consider and discuss awarding bids for 7 purchase of a 1-ton truck with aerial lift and lease of two 8 motor graders. 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Road and Bridge Department, 11 at the Court's request, has reviewed and evaluated the bids 12 that were received on the motor graders with scarifier, and 13 Road and Bridge recommends that the motor grader will be 14 Holt with the low bid, which would be $1,295 per month. 15 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Correct? 17 MR. ODOM: Per vehicle. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Per vehicle, total of $77,700 19 per vehicle. And repair expense of $2,100 for -- to lease 20 machine of $79,800, aggregating for both machines $159,600. 21 MR. ODOM: Over five years. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: For five years, correct. On 23 the 1-ton truck equipped with telescopic aerial bucket, we 24 only had one bid. Road and Bridge does recommend that we 25 accept the bid from the Commercial Body Corporation for 108 1 $35,995. You're convinced that that's a good, competitive 2 bid, even though it was only one bid? 3 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. We've done the 4 background and tried to get someone to be able to sit on 5 that. We've seen the vehicle. It's a very good bid. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Do I have a motion to -- for 7 the Court to accept the recommendations from Road and Bridge 8 Department? 9 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: So moved. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. These are both 11 within the budgeted amounts? 12 MR. ODOM: Yes, it is. Yeah. As a matter of 13 fact, we're a little bit under. We've got a good bid from 14 Holt right there. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 16 Griffin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court award 17 the bid for two motor graders with scarifiers to Holt 18 Equipment Company, and that the Court award the bid for the 19 1-ton truck equipped with telescopic aerial bucket to 20 Commercial Body Corporation. Any questions or comments? If 21 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 109 1 MR. ODOM: Thank you. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. We'll stand in 3 recess. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, just a second. 5 I see Stuart's here from U.G.R.A. Would you happen to be 6 here on the Eddie Sowell matter? 7 MR. BARRON: I was going to come after -- I 8 just got back from Judge Tench's court, and I was just going 9 to see how -- what happened with it, talk to you after 10 court. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We listened to Eddie, 12 and -- and then, at the close of the topic, somebody gave us 13 a copy of a letter from T.N.R.C.C. addressed to you, which 14 we've not seen before, dated September 24th. 15 MR. BARRON: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which kind of leaves 17 us in a little bit of a quandary. 18 MR. BARRON: If it's -- if it's the letter 19 that I have, it just asks for more information from the -- 20 from the file, and I sent that information back to -- to the 21 T.N.R.C.C. for their review. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You've already sent 23 it back up? 24 MR. BARRON: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 110 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. We'll stand in recess 2 until 1 o'clock, at which time we'll take up item -- I 3 believe it's Item Number 12. Or -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ten. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Item Number 10, which is 6 regarding the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center. Okay, 7 thanks. 8 (Recess from 11:46 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.) 9 - - - - - - - - - - 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's 1 o'clock p.m. on 11 Monday, October 22, Year 2001, and we'll reconvene the 12 regular special session of the Kerr County Commissioners 13 Court. The item for consideration this afternoon is Item 14 Number 10, which was to continue our discussions regarding 15 Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center renovation, revised 16 plans, cost estimates, and additional services. 17 Commissioner Williams and Commissioner Letz, take this away. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. From our last 19 meeting, we got back in touch with Bill Blankenship, just to 20 see what happened. We called Bill and said help, and he has 21 graciously not only listened, made some changes based on 22 suggestions that came out of the last meeting, but he also 23 agreed to come back down here and share with us some of 24 those changes and how it affects the cost and so forth, and 25 the whole lineup. So, Bill, why don't you just do it? 111 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay. Good afternoon. 2 I'll give you guys some drawings here. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glenn? 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: Cold? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Glenn. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: What you're looking at 7 there is some of the suggestions that were made previously. 8 I've got a Phase I, a Phase II, and then leading on into 9 Phase III, and then showing the Youth Stock Show, how it 10 would fit into those various buildings. If you would turn 11 to Phase I, which is the first sheet, essentially, when Bill 12 called me and was talking about looking at some new 13 buildings, and also the costs where we were maybe making a 14 few changes, I started looking at it and then didn't quite 15 like the way everything was working. So I said, well, okay, 16 what if I flipped and took the exhibit hall and put it on 17 the other side so that it would be more akin to where the 18 new arena was going to be? And also would separate what I 19 consider to be a clean area from a dirty area. And, once I 20 did that, I began to really like what was happening, because 21 it did exactly that. It moved it over to a side where now 22 it kind of stands alone and can operate specifically as an 23 individual area, but yet it's still accessible from the old 24 arena and the new arena. 25 Also, a suggestion was made to provide a 112 1 covered area below that, put about 26,000 square feet, which 2 brought it actually equal to where the old arena is right 3 now, leaving part of the existing arena still open from the 4 back side. What this allows you to do is keep the existing 5 exhibit hall and barn for a while, depending on what you 6 want to do with it and what kind of contributions you get. 7 The other thing I did was the existing outdoor arena, I 8 moved it over so that it is closer to the exhibit hall, and 9 that allowed for the parking to take place on the other 10 side. 11 One of the things that this also does, when 12 you go to Phase II, if you'll turn over to Phase II, Phase 13 II is adding a 200-stall barn and then adding area at the 14 back, which is for staging area and arena, which ties the 15 two arenas together, and then allows for access from that 16 barn area over to both those arenas. Still keeps the same 17 covered area and still keeps the same outdoor arena, but 18 what it does is that since the old imprint of the existing 19 barn and exhibit hall match, I matched it up so that we can 20 keep the existing electrical service that comes into that 21 area, which will be a fairly large expense since it's 22 underground right now. Also, we can keep the existing 23 electrical that goes to the existing arena right now up 24 front. I figure we can kind of landscape around it and hide 25 it a little bit. This particular deal gives you about 113 1 28,000 square feet of exhibit hall area, which includes the 2 bathroom, the toilets, and the kitchen concession area. 3 One of the things that we had talked about 4 earlier was trying to get away from several different areas 5 for concession, but when we decided to move that exhibit 6 hall out and away, it forced us to come back in with some 7 more concession and toilet areas, and we've kind of taken 8 that into account in some of the cost figures. The other 9 thing, between the new barn and the existing arena, I put 10 some toilet facilities in there, plus some meeting areas, 11 'cause I know that anybody that's going to have anything 12 there is going to need someplace for any kind of office area 13 and stuff. Phase III is actually taking the facility up to 14 a point to where it can host most any show that I think 15 would be in this area, whether it's a horse show, a rodeo, 16 any kind of festival. It also allows enough space so that 17 the projected Youth Stock Show can be accommodated in this 18 particular area. What I did was I just added another 19 100-stall barn area, and then thinking that, at that 20 particular time, you might have enough that your covered 21 space could be turned into an exhibit space where you get a 22 little bit better return on your money there. 23 If you'll look at the next one, which is the 24 Youth Stock Show, that's how the present stock show, as it 25 is right now with the number of animals, fits into that 114 1 area, which leaves the so-called show barns or whatever 2 open. The reason for that, I don't know whether y'all 3 remember, but the old -- that's the old projected 5-year 4 plan for how much the Youth Stock Show would grow. And, to 5 accommodate that, you're going to need the barn areas on the 6 side so that those stalls are removable and you can occupy 7 that with the Youth Stock Show, still leaving the 8 possibility of the area on the right-hand side for future 9 expansion, or just a covered area that could accommodate 10 more of the Youth Stock Show. That kind of runs through the 11 thinking there. Anybody got any questions about the plans? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't recall redoing the 13 outdoor arena in any of our previous discussions. Where did 14 that come from? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was in there, Judge. 16 It was in the last one we looked at. It was, like, a 17 $75,000 or $80,000 fee that was in that line item. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Was it? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause it was moved from 20 where it is now, over here. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where it is -- was moved 23 to is off of that building. 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It was moved way on the -- 25 to the right-hand side, when we were orienting towards the 115 1 Arena Number 1. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it brings the 3 point up -- I mean, other than saying that that arena does 4 need to be redone, you know, is that absolutely necessary to 5 put it in this plan right now? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, if it needs to be 7 redone, I think it ought to be part of the plan. I wasn't 8 aware of any discussions that had come up that said it 9 needed to be redone, because the original plan when we 10 focused on it a year and a half ago, whenever it was, did 11 not have redoing the outdoor arena as a part of that. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think the -- 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I mean, is it used that much? 14 I mean, I -- I don't know if it is or not. If it is, sure, 15 then we need to do it, because that's the whole focal point 16 of what we're doing, is renovating the facility for what 17 it's used for. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's used quite a bit, 19 but it's not -- I don't think, size-wise, it works real 20 well. The last upgrade was done by -- who did that welding, 21 Glenn? Someone -- I mean, a bunch of volunteers did a lot 22 of that welding to get some pens -- 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: 4-H club. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 4-H club went out and did 25 it, not -- pretty recent, but it's still -- like, the 116 1 announcing stand and that portion of it is really almost at 2 a liability standpoint, and a lot of that fencing is in 3 pretty bad shape. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It was talked about, 5 Judge, particularly when we still had the exhibit hall 6 inside the existing arena. 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because we didn't 9 have that second arena. We talked about redoing that one 10 and perhaps repositioning. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I think this sets it up 13 as -- more as an emphasis towards what's going on in the 14 county and the use by the people in the county, because it 15 essentially starts growing from the parking area to the 16 right as a -- a very usable facility for all the county. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, by looking at 19 it, I like the new layout better, 'cause I think it does 20 something else that -- it helps answer one of the concerns 21 we had from some of the smaller users. It really segregates 22 the current existing arena a little bit more than having it 23 in the center, as it was in the last plan, which makes it 24 easier for us to -- the fee structure, to leave it where it 25 is. I mean, it's kind -- you can get that old area, block 117 1 it off, and basically the same price that we're going to 2 have it at now. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Also eliminates the 4 potential problem of moving animals from one to the other. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, that's true. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It gets the exhibit hall 7 away from that dirty area. I think Sudie had brought up a 8 point about the problem you got right now with the smell and 9 the dirt and everything. By moving it over to this side, we 10 have a much cleaner area for that use, and it can be used 11 individually -- you could have three things going on right 12 now, pretty big shows, and not have any interference between 13 them. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And you make the 15 Arena Number 1 the focal point of the whole thing. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This new design, it does 18 -- I mean, I guess you have to -- the back of the arena is 19 the area you get in. Is there plenty of room between the 20 existing barn and the Arena 1 to get trucks and things to -- 21 I mean, we're not -- see what I'm talking about? We have -- 22 the current existing barn is directly behind Arena 1. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You got plenty of room. 24 It's hard to tell the scale right here, but if you go over 25 to the Phase II, I've got a -- what we refer to as a staging 118 1 area back there. There's about 90 feet from the back side 2 of the cattle pens back to the existing barn. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Plenty of room. There is 5 -- that's one of the things in this -- this plan; you kind 6 of lose track of the scale of what's going on. The covered 7 area, when you look at it right there, that's 26,000 square 8 feet. Somebody brought up a point about what size we have 9 right now for the existing exhibit hall, and if you look, I 10 would -- I would imagine that the existing exhibit hall and 11 barn is probably around 30-something thousand, maybe 12 32,000 feet. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which goes to 54,000 14 combined. 15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Between those two. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Those two. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think it's a definite 18 improvement. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The other question is 20 the -- you know, I hear comments both ways. On the size of 21 the seating in the arena, if you cut back to 2,500 seats or 22 1,500 seats, do you gain anything substantial on a cost 23 savings? 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Anytime you cut back on 25 square footage on a building that size, you're gaining, but 119 1 as far as it being a -- a critical issue, you might run into 2 the point where it would just be kind of, you know, a bad 3 return on your money. I mean, I can certainly look at that, 4 but it gets to be so small that by the time you accommodate 5 something there, you could -- it's like a regular 2-by-4. 6 If it's 16 feet and you do something that's 15, 5, I'm 7 losing that extra distance there, and I'm paying for it 8 anyway. So, I think we can get to an economy of scale here 9 with that situation. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: You're talking about 11 leaving it the same size and just put fewer seats in it? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well -- 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: If you -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The arena size would stay 15 the same, but I guess the seating area -- I don't know if 16 you could -- 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, just change the size of 18 the seating. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not the arena itself. 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Cut off about a thousand. 21 I can certainly take a look. I don't think you're 22 talking -- in relationship to the overall, you're not losing 23 much. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I mean, money's 25 involved, but -- 120 1 MS. BURDITT: I have a comment I'd like to 2 make about this, if you don't mind. Sudie Burditt, 3 Convention and Visitors Bureau, for the record. The more we 4 drop the seats, the less we have in potential sponsors for 5 events in additional years. Sponsors look at the number of 6 people that can see their banner or hear their comment -- 7 hear their advertising slogans or whatever. So, if only 8 1,000 people can be seated, or 1,500 -- for every 500 9 people, you go up; you're able to ask sponsors for more 10 dollars. Does that make sense? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Okay. Do you have 12 any cost figures? 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Oh, yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah. I already 15 got one, Bill. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. One of the -- one of 17 the things that I wanted to go over, I have several concerns 18 about where we are, and the Judge brought it up. The 19 initial figures that we started on were 18 months old, and 20 that makes me want to go back and kind of look and just see 21 exactly what's happened with costs and stuff, because that 22 18 months has been carried forward, oh, like four or five 23 different schemes, and in that time we have done a lot of 24 moving, juggling, changing. And, one of the things that I 25 found in going back through that really bothered me, from 121 1 the standpoint of the exhibit hall -- the original exhibit 2 hall that we had was inside the arena. By being inside the 3 arena, I had no foundation work, no slab. I had a cover 4 over it, so all that we were essentially doing was building 5 something inside, and that's where we arrived at our cost. 6 Then we talked about moving it out. When we moved it out, 7 in the shuffle there, the foundation and the slab remained 8 with the old building, in the old arena. So now, when I 9 have this other exhibit hall out there, I've got to make up 10 for the difference between the foundation and the slab, 11 which the size of the exhibit hall is about 34,000 square 12 feet, so I'm looking about $100,000 difference right there. 13 So, those numbers are reflected back in these numbers right 14 here. 15 So, one of the things that I wanted to do, if 16 we're going to move forward, is make sure -- I want to go 17 back to those original numbers, original things that we were 18 going on, update it to today's time, because we only added a 19 5 percent inflation factor, and it could have gone up 10 or 20 15 percent. Granted, the economy is going back down a 21 little bit now, but we still could be riding up there. When 22 you're talking about a project of this size, you know, 23 10 percent is a good amount of money. So, that was one of 24 my concerns, and I wanted to really be able to get back in 25 there and look at that. 122 1 If you want to, we can run through the 2 numbers. Essentially, what I did was I took what we had, 3 like I'd done on several other previous ones, and started 4 deleting things out that we were going to get rid of, and 5 that brought us down to a deduct of about two and a half 6 million dollars. And then we're going to add back the old 7 arena, fix it up, we're having to add more concessions, more 8 toilets and electrical for all that stuff. That adds 9 $120,000 back in there. Then the metal building for the 10 exhibit hall and concourse, I had given some numbers on that 11 originally around 300,000, and now I put it 400. That's 12 because of that foundation and slab area. The space that 13 was added below that, which was just a covered area, adds 14 about $250,000, essentially, because it's just the size. 15 It's 26,000 square feet, and it's a metal building with 16 electrical and power and lights, so that you can have some 17 kind of outdoor activities out there with vendors and stuff. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is it a building or is it 19 just a cover? 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's a cover. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: No walls? 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No walls. It's going to 23 have to come down a little, so you -- because we got to take 24 care of some sheer and things, but -- but it's no walls, 25 it's just a cover. But, that also includes foundation, you 123 1 know, piers. And the piers are going to probably be about 2 200 bucks apiece, so it adds up. And then the other one is 3 the side -- over on the left-hand side next to the old 4 arena. When we deleted the slab and changed the old arena, 5 moved the exhibit hall out, we had not air-conditioned that 6 area over by the concourse. So, I just showed if we wanted 7 to air-condition that left-hand side of the concourse, it 8 would run about $60,000. That's on the left side of the 9 Arena Number 1. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the -- where do we 13 have the concessions? 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Where? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know we have it, I 16 mean, where the kitchen area is. Is there another 17 concession area? I thought that was another concern. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. The kitchen 19 concession area on that particular side is really like a 20 serving-type kitchen, you know, and can accommodate some of 21 the flow coming off Arena Number 1. There's two small 22 concession areas on the right-hand side of Arena Number 1 23 that -- it's kind of hard for you to tell, but they're at 24 the top and bottom of Arena Number 1 on the right-hand side. 25 On the left-hand side of Arena Number 1, there's two toilet 124 1 areas that are put in there for that side, and then right 2 above the lower toilet, there's another concession stand. 3 That should handle that side of that area, plus handle 4 spillover coming out of the existing arena. When we go to 5 Phase II, I added back an area over next to the -- between 6 the stalls and the existing arena and put another small 7 concession stand in there, so that that could operate after 8 hours, more or less, and you didn't have to get into the 9 concourse area. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. The -- the 11 concourse area could be -- can be -- the area between Arena 12 1 and the existing arena, that concourse area and that 13 concession stand can be isolated from the Arena 1, so we 14 would -- like, if someone wanted to have an event in the 15 existing arena, they would have concessions stand alone over 16 there. 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. This way you can 18 have -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Smaller. 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: -- you can have three 21 activities going on and keep them separate. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And also, when you do your 24 Youth Stock Show, with all the people and kids and 25 everything, you're going to need them, you know, throughout. 125 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Okay. 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Then the second part of 3 that master plan, we're adding the barn back. We add 200 4 stalls in that barn, and we add the bottom portion, which is 5 the staging and the arena, and a portion of the parking, 6 which is over there on that future side; we just added some 7 more parking over there for the exhibit hall and covered 8 area. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does this -- Bill, 10 does this change up -- flipping the exhibit hall from one 11 side to the other, does it in any way reduce the number of 12 parking spots we had allocated? 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No. I may have knocked out 14 a few, but I add them back in there on that second one. To 15 tell you the truth, I haven't -- I didn't go back and check, 16 but we're pretty good where we are. I really made -- the 17 ones on the arena side are larger. You can't really tell 18 that, but for trailers and pickups and figuring that there's 19 going to be a lot of people there in oversized dualies and 20 that kind of thing, everything from the stall area back 21 towards the left is oversized, about 24 to 25 foot deep for 22 all the parking, and then the aisle in the middle, of 23 course, is 36. So, it will accommodate a trailer and a 24 truck. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: This actually makes it easier 126 1 to do the construction. You start out with Arena Number 1, 2 and you don't tear down the existing exhibit hall until you 3 move through Arena 1 to the exhibit hall. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. You actually -- I 5 mean, you can probably start the exhibit hall and Arena 1 at 6 the same time. I mean, whatever works out from a 7 construction standpoint, but that could all be cordoned off 8 and done. What is -- one thing that isn't in here is the -- 9 I guess the demolition costs of the existing exhibit hall; 10 is that correct? Or is it built into the Phase II? 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's one of those numbers 12 out there. I'm -- I'm pretty sure it's built in. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's in here somewhere? 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: When we originally did 15 that, yeah. I've got so many pieces of paper on this, so 16 I'm kind of -- that's one of the things I want to go back 17 and make sure, but I'm fairly sure that we had money there 18 for the demo of that building. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Really, what we need to 20 do today is kind of see if we can agree on the layout, and 21 then you'd go back -- you're going to redo all the numbers, 22 basically. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kind of throw away where 25 we started and start over and come up with a new -- 127 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- dollar figure. But it 3 will be hopefully somewhere in the neighborhood of this. I 4 mean, I think the new plan looks good. The only thing that 5 I can see that we could possibly cut -- I don't know. I 6 don't know if it makes any sense to cut it, is that covered 7 area that we had in the exhibit hall behind the back end. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: That's flip-flopped 9 from the last one. That's Fred's Dance Hall. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Fred's Dance Hall. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We penciled it in 12 last time. Fred suggested it; now it's in there. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And Fred's Dance Hall is 14 $250,000. I didn't think it would be that expensive of a 15 dance hall originally. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: I didn't expect it to be that 17 much. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, what you have a 19 problem about is the scale. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: We could cut it back or we 22 could delete it. It just seems to me that it's an 23 enhancement, but I didn't expect it to be a $250,000 24 enhancement. So, I'm not -- I'm honestly not wedded to 25 that. 128 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I think, for planning 2 purposes, you probably ought to leave it in, 'cause it sure 3 would be nice to have a large, covered, outside hard surface 4 thing to do things -- do stuff. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Community stuff. 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It can accommodate a lot of 8 community stuff, like if -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A fair. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. When you get to, 11 like, the festival area. You can go back to do arena 12 staging in bad weather. That would also help having that 13 covered area over there. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- the Arena 1 is the 15 dirt floor? 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. I took the concrete 17 out. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That covered area 19 replaces -- the one we added, that's dirt or concrete? 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's dirt. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's dirt. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Not concrete. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's not concrete. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All the more reason 25 it has to come out, huh, Judge? 129 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, when you add 2 something in like that and you take it as an individual 3 piece, it's going to be more expensive. When I go back and 4 look at it, I'll look at it as one whole building, because 5 you'll get, there again, some economy of scale if you just 6 take that and make one building out of it and do it that 7 way. When we're sitting here moving and changing and 8 whatever, and you just take it as an individual piece, it's 9 probably going to run a little bit more. One of the things 10 when you -- if you get to the point where we take this out 11 for bids and stuff, then what we can do is put that in as an 12 add alternate, so you can gather up some costs to make up 13 your mind. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a good plan. 15 I think that it meets the needs, and also protects the small 16 interests, which is one of our more recent concerns, and 17 provides us with the flexibility for large events as well. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I think this does it much 19 more than any of the others, because it -- it is separated 20 out enough that it will allow a lot of community 21 involvement. At the same time, you can have a big show 22 going on in one side of it. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just curious as to -- 24 Ralph, what's your opinion of this layout? 25 MR. LANGLEY: Well, I'm still studying it 130 1 here a little bit. I'll -- and I go back and look at the -- 2 the stock show plan back here. The location of the building 3 seems -- is good. We definitely need something between the 4 two arenas, a ramp or something to move cattle from the 5 existing show ring to the new one. The cattle area, which 6 is out back, is that a covered area? Or is that -- 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's covered. 8 MR. LANGLEY: This is covered? 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's all covered, right. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that covered under 11 Phase I? 12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, that's not there under 13 Phase I. 14 MR. LANGLEY: Not there. 15 MS. BURDITT: Two. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Under Phase II. When you 17 get to Phase II, you can accommodate what's going on right 18 now with the Youth Stock Show. 19 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: All covered? 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: All covered. 21 MR. LANGLEY: Is that -- that arena and 22 so forth, that's covered, but is it walled? 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, not in the back, but it 24 is blocked off from winds coming out of the north. 25 MS. BURDITT: North wind. 131 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, say that again, 2 because that doesn't make sense to me. At the end of Phase 3 II, we can accommodate what we have now? 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Look at Phase I. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: See, Phase I, you've got 7 the two arenas. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I guess if you keep 10 using the existing barn area and then the old existing barn 11 out on the outside, you can probably accommodate it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but, I mean, right 13 now we're using the existing barn and the existing arena. 14 If you add the new arena, Arena 1, square footage-wise, 15 we're adding a lot more space in the existing barn, so 16 there's -- we've got to be able to fit -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we're also 18 using the exhibit hall now, too. 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The reason that that one is 20 set up the way it is on the Youth Stock Show is because it 21 keeps them from having to redo a bunch of the pens about 22 midway through. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Say that again? 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, it's been a while, 25 but -- 132 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: -- it keeps them from 3 having to redo a bunch of pens where they have to take them 4 out and take out -- I don't know, goats? 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: That is correct. It's -- what 6 we've had to do the last two years is we had to change out 7 from -- after the county show, we had to change out for 8 the -- for the angoras that came in on Saturday nights and 9 Sundays to -- we had to change a bunch of pens, and I think 10 that's what was in his -- 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. In other words, we 12 can now accommodate that without a big change and stuff in 13 the middle of it. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Phase I will allow them to 15 continue to do what they're doing now, which includes the 16 pen change-outs. 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: So we're not going backwards. 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No. No. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- the covered area, 21 Fred's Dance Hall -- you weren't here when we decided the 22 covered 26,000-square-foot area. Is there a wall on the 23 sides at all, or is that only -- 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Just open. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's open on two sides? 133 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that could be 3 converted fairly easily to a cattle area or anything else, 4 for that matter, if you put a wall on two sides there. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It can accommodate it right 6 now; doesn't need a wall. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's true. I mean, 8 it's -- so that space right there, you could easily -- that 9 would give the stock show quite a bit more space if they 10 could use that area. 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right, because it will have 12 the power and it will have the lights. 13 MR. LANGLEY: One of the things I wondered 14 about this is, we always need a wash area. 15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: There's wash areas built-in 16 in the stall area. 17 MR. LANGLEY: In which stall area? 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Wash racks there. If we 20 don't end up doing this, we'll have to do something about 21 putting some kind of wash areas for all the Youth Stock 22 Show. 23 MS. BURDITT: But we still have the existing 24 wash areas between the existing exhibit hall today, and 25 until we get to Phase II -- in Phase I, the existing ones 134 1 would all still be there. 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 3 MS. BURDITT: And Phase II, they wouldn't 4 necessarily be torn out. Revamped, maybe. 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, Phase II, they go, 6 because it's a travel area and we're putting toilets and 7 stuff over there where the plumbing is. 8 MS. BURDITT: Oh, okay. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: But when you do that, 10 they're accommodated in the stall area. 11 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Pull them out, yeah, 12 you'd have them in the other stall areas. 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mm-hmm. 14 MR. LANGLEY: In looking at our stock show 15 sale, definitely, it would be nice to go into the new arena 16 building, but we would need passageway from the existing 17 arena into that. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Oh, that's not a problem. 19 MR. LANGLEY: Directly -- you know, directly 20 across. 21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. Are you talking 22 about from -- from the existing arena? 23 MR. LANGLEY: From the existing building into 24 this one. 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, that would not be 135 1 possible, because there's a difference in the height. 2 MR. LANGLEY: So, what we're talking about, 3 then, is all the animals have to come outside and back 4 around? 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Depending on where you want 6 to have your sale. Because, really, depending -- depending 7 on how you do that, that's what this was set up for with all 8 the show rings and everything, so that you could have your 9 sale right there. 10 MR. LANGLEY: No. We need to go into one -- 11 one ring. That's what we're doing now in the old building, 12 is going in the front of it, where it's air-conditioned, 13 heated, and et cetera. So, somehow these animals need to go 14 from this area to that area. 15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: They'll have to go around 16 to get to that area, 'cause it's a step down. 17 MR. LANGLEY: No ramp possibility? 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: This -- no, you wouldn't 19 want to bring them through there. They got to come this 20 way. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Couldn't go under, go 22 down, come back up? 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Not through that concourse 24 area. 25 MR. LANGLEY: I'm going to have to go back to 136 1 the Executive Board and tell them what -- to get their deal 2 of it, so these are the questions I'm asking. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: But it would have been the 4 same under the old plan, too, right? 5 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Sure, yeah. I mean, the 6 problem is, the way that arena's done, your concourse is up 7 here. Your seating comes down, and the arena floor is right 8 here. 9 MR. LANGLEY: I'm -- 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And you're starting off 11 right here with those animals. You got to bring them down 12 and around below. 13 MR. LANGLEY: How much lower will the new 14 arena floor be? 15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: About 6 or 7 feet. 16 MR. LANGLEY: And the distance across 17 there -- we've got 50 feet across this -- 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah, but you don't want to 19 bring them into the air-conditioned -- you don't want to get 20 them into your air-conditioned area. Not -- you wouldn't 21 want to cross the people right there. They're better off to 22 come around the back side, because you've got all that area 23 back there, you could stage them up. How do you do your 24 sale? 25 MS. BURDITT: Everything's done at one time. 137 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: So, in other words, you 2 take -- you take all the sheep, all the cattle -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, it's done -- 4 MS. BURDITT: Champion. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's done one swine, one 6 steer, you know, one goat. 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The champions? 8 MR. LANGLEY: Not quite that bad. All of 9 them -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just maybe 10, 10, 10, 11 but it's all mismatched. 12 MR. LANGLEY: It's in groups. 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mix and match them. 14 MR. LANGLEY: But, basically, everybody takes 15 their animal through the ring, regardless of where they 16 placed, with the exception of the hogs, and they take one 17 group of hogs and the kids go through the ring with that 18 group of hogs. 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's got to be a staging 20 thing that you'll set up back there in the back, you know. 21 Just have to come down there and run them through if you 22 want to have it in the large arena. 23 MR. LANGLEY: You see, to start with, the way 24 this final plan is, you've got your -- your lambs in and 25 sheep -- lambs and sheep in the new arena, but then you've 138 1 got your goats and your hogs and your cattle that are right 2 aside of that, so that this area's going to have to be 3 cleared prior to the sale. Part of it, anyway. 4 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mm-hmm. 5 MR. LANGLEY: To where we can get the people 6 in so they can use chairs downstairs. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How do you it now, 8 Ralph? 9 MR. LANGLEY: How do we do it now? The hog 10 show rings in the front of the old building is cleared out 11 after the hog show, and that's set up for the sale, and then 12 everything comes into that area for the sale. The only 13 thing that basically comes from the existing arena building 14 would be cattle and sheep, because the hogs are already over 15 there, and the -- the meat goats come from the other area. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MR. LANGLEY: But if we're going to have our 18 sale, I mean, we need to have our sale in the new arena 19 building. 20 MS. BURDITT: By all means. No question 21 about that. 22 MR. LANGLEY: We need to have the sale over 23 there, so it's going to be a matter of getting the livestock 24 over there. 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, if you start off with 139 1 Phase I, that's where your problem is. If you go to Phase 2 II and you have the stall area, then the stall area can be 3 cleaned out of stalls, and it will accommodate all the sheep 4 and goats, because it's just a 100-foot-wide situation, so 5 you can move everything that's in the arena here over to the 6 stall area. I just put that in there so somebody would -- 7 would see the relationships. There's plenty of areas to 8 accommodate. When you get to Phase II, you can 9 accommodate -- and Phase III will accommodate what we've 10 projected five years down the road for it. 11 MR. LANGLEY: In other words, in Phase II, we 12 could actually show the sheep and goats in this stall area, 13 providing all of the stalls are -- 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Take the stalls out, right. 15 That's one of the other things. I know you have questions 16 about making sure that you've got people renting this 17 facility. One of the things that you can do, instead of 18 buying the stalls, you could rent them, so that would just 19 be an open barn. And, if you start booking some horse 20 shows, then you rent the stalls. After a year or so, if it 21 looks like you're going to build up, then you can go and buy 22 those stalls. So, you don't have to pay for the stalls 23 right now. And you may want to get a certain amount, you 24 know, for accommodation of certain activities, like buy 100 25 stalls that are those W.W. panels, and you can move those 140 1 anywhere you want to. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Going back to where Ralph 3 was with the -- moving the livestock, if we're going to have 4 to move livestock, you know, basically out the back of the 5 existing arena and then over the back into Arena 1, that 6 area is not covered right now, correct? 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay, say that one more 8 time? I was trying -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're trying to move, for 10 the livestock show, animals from the existing arena to Arena 11 1, which is where the show ring would be. 12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: In Phase I? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In Phase I. 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're going to have to 16 come out the back of the arena into an uncovered area, 17 cross, and back in. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's covered back 19 there. 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: He's talking about over the 21 back side, where you have your pens for your rodeo-type 22 setup. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And I've got that covered. 25 That's one thing I do know that cost is in there. There's a 141 1 50-foot by -- there's a 50-foot area back there, a shed that 2 I have on there that's not shown. I've got that cost in 3 there. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, there's -- so 5 that they have to move them, but they can move them under a 6 covered area. 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. Under Phase I, 8 yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under Phase I. 10 MR. LANGLEY: See, when we look at this 11 thing, with the 200-stall barn section set up, basically, 12 you wouldn't need the lambs and the sheep in that new 13 building. They could set up -- this is -- 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: He's looking at Phase III. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Phase III. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: He's looking at the -- 17 MR. LANGLEY: The last one over here. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 19 MR. LANGLEY: You could put your -- you could 20 put your -- put your sheep in that barn, you know, in the 21 200-stall barn if that's cleared out, and you wouldn't need 22 the other one, but you would want that building for the -- 23 for the sale. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But, I think from 25 a -- from -- not that I'm pessimistic or anything, but we 142 1 need to look at Phase I as meeting the needs. 2 MR. LANGLEY: Right. 3 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Oh, yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, Phase II and III 5 hopefully will happen, but we need to make sure that, you 6 know, in the interest or the Phase I design -- 7 MR. LANGLEY: See, the Phase I, he doesn't 8 have a place to put his cattle. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: It might be that what we 10 should do is -- 'cause I agree with you, Jonathan, 11 wholeheartedly -- is basically delete the dance hall -- 12 dance floor from Phase I and substitute the 200-stall barn, 13 which is actually -- that's a net savings, but it provides 14 that flexibility on your show. Do you know what I'm saying? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's not a net savings. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: You've got $260,000 for the 18 covered area. 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah, but Barn 1 is, like, 20 $458,000. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: You got $140,000 for 200 22 stalls. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And that's 200 stalls. And 24 if you look up at delete Barn 1 and 2 for 910, they're 458 25 each. 143 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, one of these is a barn, 2 huh? 3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. There's two barns 4 there that you're deleting. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: But you're right, from the 7 standpoint if you're going to accommodate Youth Stock Show, 8 it's better up front -- if you stick with Phase I, you're 9 better off to substitute those two. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. That would be -- that 11 would add about $650,000 to the bottom line. 12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: So you'd be looking at 13 Phase II, just minus the covered area, and the arena and 14 staging area. 15 MR. LANGLEY: What's the cost on redoing the 16 outdoor arena, the 130-by-270? 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, I've got $40,000. I 18 don't know. Somebody was throwing away -- you had mentioned 19 something about it being a little bit more. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't remember. It was 21 40 -- 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. What I was 23 essentially doing there was W.W. panels, redoing the dirt, 24 thinking that the County can help you with the curb 25 situation, and putting out -- putting lights and power. 144 1 MR. LANGLEY: You're talking about to redo 2 the outdoor arena? 3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Uh-huh. 4 MR. LANGLEY: Why not leave the outdoor arena 5 where it is presently, and save that money, and go ahead and 6 if you want to delete this covered dance hall, as they call 7 it, and go ahead and put the 200-stall barn up, and forget 8 this other arena presently in today's expenses. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's up to these guys. 10 What it is is where the existing arena is right here. 11 MR. LANGLEY: Yeah, it's over here. 12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That parking area. 13 MR. LANGLEY: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The reason, Ralph, was -- 15 I mean to move it, was to help parking out, because it's out 16 there. It kind of -- 17 MR. LANGLEY: So, does that need to be done 18 presently? That's my question. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. I don't 20 know. I'm saying the reason was that, and the other reason 21 is that the existing outdoor arena is in bad shape. And, 22 the -- 23 MR. LANGLEY: I need to go look at it, 24 because I helped build a lot of that, the concession stand 25 and the restrooms and a lot of that other stuff then. 145 1 MS. BURDITT: How many years ago, Ralph? 2 MR. LANGLEY: Well, I know it's a good while 3 back, but -- with minimal changes on that thing. But the 4 use that it's getting -- use that it's getting today, is it 5 necessary to move it and redo a whole lot of it? I mean, 6 cost-wise, versus the stall barn building? I'm throwing 7 that out. 8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, one of the things 9 that they reemphasized to me was to accommodate the 10 activities in the county. And, from what I understand, 11 that's where the people in the county are having a lot of 12 their weekend shows, one-day show, rodeos, penning, all that 13 kind of stuff. That's where the 4-H has their stuff. So, 14 you know, if -- it's kind of like you don't want to really 15 hold them up, not do something for that. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, you 17 have to start looking at it. It's $40,000 to redo that 18 rodeo arena versus $480,000 for the 200-stall barn, so you 19 can't do -- not do one and see how it works out and do the 20 other, but you may need to -- 21 MR. LANGLEY: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- need to cut back on 23 doing it; maybe defer it or -- 24 MR. LANGLEY: Defer it is what I'm saying. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was going to ask, 146 1 isn't what goes on in that outdoor arena -- could it not be 2 handled in the old arena? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The existing arena? 4 MR. LANGLEY: Probably. Probably it could, 5 if that was the intention to begin with, that the 4-H kids, 6 when they wanted to use the existing building, could use it. 7 But we end up with conflicts, because they're kind of on 8 Friday nights, sometimes, basically when they have theirs. 9 Tell me yes or no, because I haven't messed with it. 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: Friday nights during the 11 summer, yes. 12 MR. LANGLEY: Friday nights during the 13 summer. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 15 MR. LANGLEY: And there is minimal activities 16 in that outdoor arena today, but I feel it should be there 17 for the local kids if they want to go to an arena somewhere 18 and not worry about a lot of electricity and so on and so 19 forth. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How much is the outdoor 21 arena used now, Glenn? How many nights during the year? 22 MR. HOLEKAMP: Right now they're using it one 23 night a week for practice, currently, after the summer. 24 During the summer, usually three, four nights a week. 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's a high-use area. The 147 1 problem that you've got is, if you bring somebody in and 2 say, okay, I want you to rent this facility. Oh, by the 3 way, you can't do it now; we're not sure about this. Then 4 you run into some conflicts there. By keeping that outdoor 5 arena, you get rid of those conflicts, and it's probably 6 worth it. I don't know. Sudie could maybe talk about that, 7 but it's probably worth it for two year's worth of rental. 8 That $40,000 is gone like that with somebody paying your 9 rent on the facility. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: But we could leave the 11 outdoor arena where it is. We could leave the outdoor arena 12 where it is and still -- still be able to function for the 13 community. That means we wouldn't get that additional 14 incremental parking, but when you start -- if we start 15 talking about the necessity to put the two barns back in 16 there with 200 stalls, then I think we need to also talk 17 about the necessity of finding some cost savings, which 18 would be dance hall, removing the arena, and possibly 19 redoing the parking over here on the west side, and flow 20 those numbers back into Phase II. 21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I would think that you're 22 going to have to come in there -- I would fix that arena up, 23 though, because of the liability situation out there. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we need -- we need to 25 take a look at that. But, you know, if we're talking about 148 1 up to $40,000 for fixing the arena up, that may be something 2 we don't want to roll into a bond issue, basically. We can 3 handle it separately, particularly if it's on a short-term 4 basis. $40,000 is to move it and to fix it up so it's 5 functional for a significant period of time. We may be able 6 to patch it for two or three years for $8,000, I don't know. 7 That would be up to someone who knows more about what he's 8 talking about than I do. 9 MR. LANGLEY: Well, in the past, the bulk of 10 that work over there has been done by the 4-H, Horse Club 11 parents, and so on, and I -- unless it's in recent years, 12 the County basically hasn't paid for anything but lights. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 4-H made a big 14 improvement. About two, three years ago, 4-H added a bunch 15 of pens on the Highway 27 side of the arena, but they didn't 16 do anything on the restroom side and the -- the announcer's 17 stand and all that. That's where the work needs to be done 18 right now, but that -- probably $10,000 ought to cover all 19 that? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: Also, the fences on the side 21 currently, like the bull riding during the county fair, we 22 were -- we have to put panels up on the inside, because the 23 stock contractors will not put their bulls loose in there. 24 MS. BURDITT: Would you? 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: So that's where we're at. 149 1 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: What about looking at 2 the cost -- while you're doing cost trades, how about a cost 3 trade of pulling either the arena off of Phase II, the arena 4 and the staging area that are at the back, pull those into 5 Phase I, and don't do the outdoor arena right now; defer 6 that. What would that -- you know, is that a -- a big cost 7 difference? Or -- 8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: What's that? All that 9 covered area? Oh, yeah, big difference. 10 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. If we had 11 the -- 12 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You're bringing half a 13 million dollars in there now when you cover that, add the 14 arenas. But, the thing about that, that 100-foot by 15 200-foot is not going to be big enough to accommodate what 16 they want to do, rodeo-wise, with the F.F.A. I'm sure 17 whoever -- 18 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: No, what I'm saying 19 is -- is if you add that arena in and staging area, then you 20 could perhaps do without the 200-stall barn in Phase I. 21 Could you -- could you make enough space available -- I'm 22 talking short-term accommodation at the youth exhibition -- 23 or the Youth Stock Show. If you had the arena and staging 24 areas done, then could you do without the 200 -- the new -- 25 this? If you had this and this, and you may have to operate 150 1 it a little bit differently, but then -- but then you would 2 have a lot more space than we've got now, for sure. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My only question is 4 really -- is whether the sides have walls, because I don't 5 think it's reasonable to ask a large part of the stock show 6 to be in an area that doesn't have outside walls, because 7 that wind goes whipping through there and you freeze to 8 death, or you'd be miserable. So, I mean, if that's 9 enclosed enough, it may be a good trade-off, but it just -- 10 I don't think that's enclosed. 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, the -- wouldn't be 12 that much to enclose that back area, 'cause all you really 13 have to do is block off the north side, which is actually 14 the northwest side where the cattle are. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: South side wouldn't be that 17 much trouble. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That may not be a -- I 19 mean, I don't know if you just eliminated the Fred's Dance 20 Hall for right now, squared off the back of the arena and 21 existing arena, those two, that arena and that staging area, 22 add that in, that may give you a lot of usable space, and 23 then you can delete the horse stall barn as well and kind of 24 close that in a little bit so you can use it. 25 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Be a lot more space 151 1 than we've got now. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And also would tie into 3 the existing barn. Only problem I can see with that is it 4 may be difficult to get trucks and machinery and things into 5 the arenas. Kind of be blocking it. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's not going to be that 7 much trouble. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not trouble? 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No. I've put those in 10 there. That doesn't mean that staging area is right where 11 it is. It can be a little bit thinner, a little bit longer. 12 You know, it's just kind of approximate there. The only 13 thing you're doing is you're cutting off a major avenue of 14 revenue if you don't have some area for stalls. There 15 again, it still goes back to the fact, though, that you 16 could -- you've got enough area, you could do portable 17 stalls out here on all this future area and just use 18 portables until you found out what you were going to be 19 accommodating. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couldn't you put stalls, 21 like if you had a horse event, in that area where -- that's 22 called the arena area? Could you put stalls under that 23 area? 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Sure. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So then you could -- I 152 1 mean -- 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I had about 50 -- I think I 3 had a little bit over 50 in the existing covered area right 4 up above that. You can get, like, 100 in the existing barn. 5 So, by the time you get some over there on that right-hand 6 side where the future is, you could put, you know, 7 portables. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That give you a better feel 10 for what your events are going to be. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To build that arena, 12 100-by-200, and staging, is that proposed to be under roof? 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah, that's under roof 14 right now. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 16 MR. LANGLEY: Where do you put your cattle 17 for roping events or cutting events, in those situations 18 that are using the existing arena? 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: In that existing covered 20 area, what I was looking at was the fact that you can take 21 the existing -- it depends on how you want to stage the 22 thing. The existing barn area would have the loading rack 23 off of it, so you could have some portable pens in there, 24 run them through -- run them up between the arena and the 25 staging area into that existing covered area, so you're 153 1 rotating them in and out. But, your deliveries are all back 2 there at the existing barn. Now, if we don't have the area 3 up in here, that doesn't mean that you can't come over there 4 and do them right at that area right above the arena. 5 MR. LANGLEY: Staging -- what you're calling 6 the staging area? 7 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, right up above the -- 8 between where I got arena, 100 foot by 200 foot, that 9 existing covered area. 10 MR. LANGLEY: Yeah. 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right there. You could 12 come around and drop them off right there. 13 MR. LANGLEY: Okay. 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It would make a portable 15 arena. 16 MR. LANGLEY: Yeah. 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: We could take the one 18 that's out there and modify it a little bit and roll it 19 around if we needed to. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: What the -- I notice in your 21 livestock show schematic, you don't have any use for the 22 existing barn. And, what -- is that because of the 23 permanent stalls that are in there now or what? 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Are you looking at the 25 Youth Stock Show? 154 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Existing barn has got the 3 goats and hogs in it -- existing arena, I'm sorry. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm talking about the 5 existing barn. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Oh, the existing barn? No, 7 I didn't have anything in there. So, what we had talked 8 about was that you could expand into that 80 foot by 120 9 foot existing barn, and pull down the lambs and sheep out of 10 the existing arena into that area. And, then, I know you 11 guys are talking about getting rid of the 26,000 square foot 12 of covered area, but, see, that would accommodate also a 13 portion of that overflow from the Youth Stock Show. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: I guess the point I'm making 15 is that in all these considerations of the Youth Exhibition 16 Stock Show, no one's considering use of the existing barn, 17 and I don't know if that's because of those permanent stalls 18 that are in there that need to be -- perhaps need to be 19 removed or -- 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: They're moveable. Those 21 aren't permanent. I mean, they're portable. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: They're portable in the sense 23 that almost anything is portable, but it -- 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: They're pretty big. 25 MR. LANGLEY: They are portable, but they are 155 1 heavy. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, I mean, I think Jonathan 3 understands where I'm coming from. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, on the space there 5 we're not talking about that we can utilize. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Right. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In Phase I, especially. 8 I think that -- again, the only comment I would have is that 9 then we'd have to make the modifications like just the barn 10 to put exterior walls on it so you can have some -- 11 MR. LANGLEY: And low as it is, with walls on 12 it, it would be hotter than all get-out in the summer. 13 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's not low. Is that -- 14 oh, you're talking about the existing barn. 15 MR. LANGLEY: Existing stall -- 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah, right. 17 MR. LANGLEY: -- stalls back there, yes. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. Now, we could come 19 in there and retrofit that with some of the insulation stuff 20 that I talked about, the foil. That would knock off about 21 10 degrees, but it's still low. It is a problem. There can 22 be -- there can be some other things done, some whirlybirds 23 or some fan-type things to help accommodate that. If you 24 enclose it, it's going to be worse, though. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's going to be pretty 156 1 hot. In the winter, it will be pretty cold. 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: But if you did add the area 3 at the back by the arena and staging and keep the covered 4 area, you'd be covered on the Youth Stock Show. But, it's 5 still -- it's still a trade-off between the 200 stalls and 6 that covered area at the back. 7 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Sure. 8 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Depending on what your 9 monetary feeling is about how you're approaching it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know if I have 11 more questions or more answers than I did when I started. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, I think -- in my mind, 13 I mean, I think the basic layout is good, with flip-flopping 14 the exhibit hall to the east. I mean, that really seems to 15 make sense and bring it all together. And, so, then the 16 issue becomes how do we work with that basic configuration 17 to best accommodate the needs of the local community? Which 18 is the stock show, the small users, the 4-H, and those 19 people, and stay within a reasonable economic parameter. 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: If you did Phase III, you'd 21 be covered. That's all I can tell you. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How much would it cost 23 additional on the 26,000-square-foot covered area to put 24 walls on the east and the south sides of that? 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I've been told a number, 157 1 but I can't -- I think the metal wall runs you about two to 2 two and a half dollars a face foot, so when you look at it 3 straight on, you'd be looking from the side on that amount. 4 That area is about -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 300 feet, maybe? 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: That's 300 times -- 7 probably about $10,000 or $15,000. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That may -- may be 9 worthwhile to put walls in there, 'cause that would give you 10 additional room for the stock show. 11 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Okay. But, once you do 12 that, you're now enclosing that area, and so you've got to 13 start dealing with the ventilation and a few things. So, in 14 reality, you're probably adding a little bit more to what 15 your final costs would be, but say it''s $25,000. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, and you're still 17 better off when you're adding a lot of square footage which 18 can be used for the stock show. 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it can also be used 21 for versatility with the exhibit hall, for exhibit hall 22 events or for -- you know, seems like it's a good spot to 23 have covered space, which you came up with before, and makes 24 it more versatile, to me. 25 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Now, another thing to do -- 158 1 I might as well throw one more at you -- is, instead of 2 making that 200-stall barn full-fledged fit-out, let's just 3 do the same thing. We take the covered area and move it 4 over there. Essentially, we're going to put a roof on it, 5 put walls on it, we're going to have some electricity, but 6 not like what I would have in a horse stall situation with 7 one every two. There's concrete on the floor there with 8 some of the open areas, so we could actually put it there 9 instead of on the other side, and just cut back on that 10 stall area, and you could add that later. You could come 11 back in there with more electricity; you could come back in 12 there with more -- if you got to have concrete floors and 13 stuff, the better area might be for it to be on that side of 14 the arena, versus over by the exhibit hall. So, in Phase I, 15 just take off the covered area and take -- where you've got 16 exhibit hall, existing barn, and we'll just put that covered 17 area right there and put walls around it. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just be standing 19 there by itself after the exhibit hall was demolished? 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Demolish that, then put up 21 the area that would enclose it so that it could accommodate 22 stalls. And, there again, I say instead of buying stalls, 23 rent them until you find out what your clientele's going to 24 be. And then all we're doing is essentially putting walls 25 around the covered area. So, for a minimal amount of money, 159 1 you've got the area right next to the arena where you really 2 need it, and it can help accommodate the outdoor vendor 3 area. We'll just pare back that barn. 4 MS. BURDITT: We now have Phase one and a 5 half. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm going to ask Sudie, the 8 covered area, what we're calling the dance hall, does that 9 incrementally add anything to the use of the exhibit hall? 10 MS. BURDITT: In Phase III? 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. 12 MS. BURDITT: In Phase I? 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. 14 MS. BURDITT: Not necessarily. In Phase III, 15 it adds a tremendous... 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: When you change -- 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is actually made into an 18 exhibit space. 19 MS. BURDITT: Right. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Just as covered space, it 21 doesn't add -- 22 MS. BURDITT: Not necessarily, no. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, what's the difference 24 between exhibit space and covered space? I mean -- 25 MS. BURDITT: Well, in Phase III, it becomes 160 1 closed-in walls, controlled access, heated, air-conditioned, 2 lights. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's extended the 4 concourse down in Phase III to -- 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Once do you that, though, 7 you're adding some bucks there. 8 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Yeah. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: But from her standpoint, 10 rentable and accommodating different clientele. That's -- 11 MS. BURDITT: It really -- that really, 12 really, truly adds to the whole complex, the Phase III 13 exhibit hall exhibit space. Because then it -- it almost 14 doubles the size of your meeting, because you can retain 15 your meeting space in the exhibit hall, have meal functions 16 in the -- in what was the covered area, or have dining in 17 one, dancing in another, a whole combination of things. 18 MR. BLANKENSHIP: And since it's moved over 19 to the side now and out and away, you could have all kind of 20 stuff. Auto shows, they could bring their stuff inside. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it may be -- but I 22 also hear that it may be better to not have it -- the 23 covered area even done right now. Might almost be better to 24 add it at a later date, rather than have something that may 25 not work. 161 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you add it as 2 exhibit space later. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 4 MS. BURDITT: Add it as exhibit space later. 5 It would make a great Phase IV. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bill, let me ask a 7 question. It may be dumb, but we'll go anyhow. On Phase 8 II, you're showing in the back an arena, 100-by-200, a 9 staging area. What -- would it make any sense to -- if 10 we're going to redo the outdoor arena, that we just take it 11 and move it back there with that 100-by-200 and let it serve 12 both purposes? 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's too small. 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No -- well, the problem 15 there is that by keeping them separate, you're accommodating 16 the county where you're not interfering with something that 17 somebody's going to rent out for another clientele, where 18 the county then has access to that full-time. It's theirs. 19 And my understanding is that's a big difference. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So what we're looking at, 22 then, you know, under Phase I is to move the 26,000 covered 23 area over to where the existing exhibit hall is, 24 essentially, right? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Existing barn, he 162 1 said. 2 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yes. Oh, okay. Right. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Existing barn, and I 4 guess exhibit hall are on -- if you demolish one, you really 5 get rid of both. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. Just plant 7 that over there. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, that moves over 9 there. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Essentially, what I was 11 just talking about, just take that 200-stall barn and 12 just -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cut it in half. 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Covered area. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: To accommodate in the 17 future whatever you want or need to. It's multipurpose. 18 MR. LANGLEY: Excuse me. You need the full 19 area, though, not part of it. 20 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 21 MR. LANGLEY: Yeah. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, basically, we've built 23 a -- a pole barn where the existing exhibit hall is. 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, but it would have 25 sides. 163 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Some sides, yes. We'd go 2 with sides. And then what about going ahead and doing the 3 arena staging area? We would do that too? No? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: 'Cause you have a 7 covered path. It's not shown here, but those areas out on 8 the west side into the south end of the Arena 1. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Would we go ahead and 10 move and redo the original for the outdoor arena? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think that it 12 needs to be addressed in the plan, whether it's under the 13 bond issue or not. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's something we 15 could do on our own. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think the thing that makes 17 that -- now, the parking area that Bill has shown, do we ask 18 him to move that? Because it's the parking area where he's 19 left the big spaces for the pickups, campers, trailers, 20 dualies. That parking area won't be able to be completed if 21 we leave the arena where it is now, 'cause the arena sits 22 right smack-dab in the middle. 23 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Right. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: That, to me, is the biggest 25 reason to move the outdoor arena, is because you then free 164 1 up the space for parking. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: When compared to some 3 of the other things we're talking about, I think we're 4 talking relatively low dollars to do -- go ahead and redo 5 the outdoor arena. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: But if we don't redo the 7 outdoor arena and we delete that parking, we'll probably 8 have saved a fairly significant amount, 'cause you've saved 9 all that parking, too. 10 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The County's doing a lot of 11 that parking area, too, so -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The County's doing a lot 13 of that. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Still have to buy the 15 materials. 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: The thing about where the 17 outdoor arena is right now, you've got dirt, so you'll have 18 to replace it. Where I've put the -- redone it and put it, 19 it's on dirt right now. So, if you leave it off, let's say 20 you don't move it over there and you want to make parking 21 out of it. You're just going to spend that money again, so 22 it really doesn't -- you either don't do it or leave it 23 right where it is. 24 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: Real cost buildup. My 25 intuition says go ahead and move it and redo it. 165 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: That answers the question. 2 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: With a program of that 3 size. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, you know -- 5 COMMISSIONER GRIFFIN: I really like the new 6 layout. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I like the new layout and I 8 like the notion of building the shell of the -- of the 9 barn -- two barns, and deleting the dance hall, although 10 that concession -- I was counting on the concession money 11 from that in the future. 12 (Laughter.) 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You're talking about just 15 the 200-stall barn? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You said two. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's two barns. 19 MR. BLANKENSHIP: 200-stall. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's actually two barns, 21 isn't it? 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: No, just the one. All that 23 did was add an extra piece down at the end. There again, it 24 still accommodates the existing electrical and existing -- 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. 166 1 MR. BLANKENSHIP: -- septic system that's out 2 there, too. And, still, part of the problem is, once you 3 go -- and hopefully we're going to provide some kind of 4 working drawings. There's no reason why you can't do this, 5 draw it up as an add alternate, so you'll know your costs, 6 see where you are. It's a good time right now; if you're 7 planning on getting this thing started, I think you're going 8 to hit pretty good next year. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go to the voters. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We get the voters behind 12 it. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, is that clear? 15 Crystal clear directive? 16 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Clear as mud. I think the 17 whole idea is to take and utilize the plan that we have on 18 Phase I, and use the existing exhibit hall and barn in that 19 space right there, just provide the size of the 200-stall 20 barn and use it as a covered, enclosed area and accommodate 21 it as economically as possible, but use that -- 22 MR. LANGLEY: What's the size of the 23 200-stall barn? 24 MR. BLANKENSHIP: It's about 270-by-150, 25 40,500 square feet. That's about the size of the existing 167 1 exhibit hall right now, about 40,000 feet. 2 MR. LANGLEY: Now, what we're saying is, 3 until the Arena 1 is built, nothing basically will be 4 changed in the exhibit hall and existing barn and the 5 existing arena? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct. 7 MR. LANGLEY: Okay. 8 MS. BURDITT: Well, even -- and in the 9 phases, to carry Ralph's question one question further, 10 Arena 1 would be built, the exhibit hall would be built 11 before the existing exhibit hall is destroyed? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 14 MS. BURDITT: So, all the same functions can 15 continue as we expand. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 17 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, then you take down 18 the existing stuff and put the shell barn up. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: And then probably after all 21 that is done, you'll move the existing outdoor arena. 22 MR. BLANKENSHIP: You could do that 23 immediately. I mean, there's no timing on that. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, you need access, 25 construction access. If you put that existing arena up 168 1 before you complete the shell of the barn, you may have some 2 problems. 3 MR. BLANKENSHIP: There's plenty of room to 4 stage back in the back. And -- and, there again, you lose 5 track of what distances are. You're a good 50 feet from the 6 outdoor arena to that barn. Well, 40. 7 MR. LANGLEY: From the existing outdoor arena 8 or the new one where you're relocating? 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: From the redone outdoor 10 arena. When we put the new one in there, you're about 40. 11 (Discussion off the record.) 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where do you want to 13 go? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to send 15 Bill back to the drawing table one more time, but I think 16 we're close enough that we can -- and, also, I think it's 17 appropriate to look at the cost figures again. The main 18 question I have is something that is -- you know, in my 19 mind, this is probably beyond the scope of what we 20 originally hired you to do. 21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Well, slightly. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just a little bit. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And -- you know, and I 24 just think that at some point, or whatever point, you know, 25 we need to start compensating you for some of this. We 169 1 understand that we're beyond that point, I mean, what we 2 really expected. So, I do want to give you money, but you 3 do understand that there is a limit. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We are talking 5 about -- about the time you come into my office and Bill's 6 satisfied that the existing contract -- that hourly rates 7 take care of it, and you'll give me a notice and tell me 8 what the number of hours and rates are. 9 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Yeah. If you're just 10 wanting to redraw this and then go to a next stage, 11 presentation-wise, I was thinking that we would do it on an 12 11-by-17 format like this, and I wasn't really sure there 13 was any reason to do a Power Point. We'd just leave that 14 alone and do the boards over so that you could make 15 presentations with it that way. And, figuring on the number 16 of hours that might be involved, I can give Bill an idea 17 that to go back -- I really need to check those numbers and 18 make sure, and that's going to take some time, get some 19 updated costs and stuff on that. I figure about 40 hours of 20 my time, and about 20 hours of one of my compadres. And 21 then, by the time you do that, with materials and 22 everything, I was figuring somewhere around $7,000 to get to 23 that point, plus or minus, depending on where we are, what 24 we do, and how many more times we change it. But, I think 25 it is -- it's getting to be a real -- it's good right now 170 1 where it is. Accommodates a lot. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't have anything in 3 the budget, do we? 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Not specifically for this. 5 We have Contingency, we have Professional Services that we 6 could -- the $7,000 that Bill's put forward is something 7 that we can find in the budget, I would say. It would draw 8 some of our budget items down pretty severely, but that's 9 what they're there for. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have any problem 11 with doing that, you know, getting it all on the table 12 that -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Put it on the agenda 14 for next time? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, that's fine. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bill, thank you very 17 much. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: What would your timetable be 19 to be back with us with the redrawn Phase I and the 20 reconfirmed -- 21 MR. BLANKENSHIP: I'm leaving for U.S. 22 Nationals on the 24th. I'll be black on the 28th. I figure 23 a couple of weeks after that, I should be set. So, that 24 will probably be the second or third week in November, 25 something like that. 171 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Middle of November, 2 somewhere in there. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, we could either do it the 4 first meeting in December, which is the 10th, or possibly 5 November 28th, which is the second meeting in November. 6 MR. BLANKENSHIP: What I'll do is when I get 7 to a point, if it's okay, I'll just start feeding you guys 8 numbers and drawings and stuff, so y'all can have a look at 9 it before. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Anything else? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think so. Thank 14 you. 15 MR. BLANKENSHIP: Mm-hmm. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you much. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you very much. We're 18 adjourned. 19 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:21 p.m.) 20 - - - - - - - - - - 21 22 23 24 25 172 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 26th day of October, 8 2001. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25