1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, June 3, 2002 11 6:30 p.m. 12 District Courtroom Number 1 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge 23 H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 24 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 ABSENT: LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X June 3, 2002 2 PAGE 3 1.1 PUBLIC HEARING County's 2000 Colonia Comprehensive Plan 4 Opening remarks by Eric Hartzell of Grantworks 4 5 Public comments: 6 Vicky Russell 13 7 Lewis Cosby 14 William Magill 18 8 Don Davis 20 Mark Wittlinger 25 9 Arthur Nagel 26 Virginia Weston 29 10 Edward Moore 34 Cynthia Hurayt 39 11 Gene Thacker 43 Paul Werner 47 12 Kathy Schneider 49 Rhonda Mitchell 52 13 Robert Allard 53 Larry Delgadillo 55 14 Bill Mentch 56 Travis Smith 58 15 Ed Sly 59 16 Commissioners' Comments 62 17 Adjourned 74 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, June 3, 2002, at 6:30 p.m., a special meeting 2 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in District 3 Courtroom Number 1, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, 4 and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good evening, everyone. It's 7 6:30 in the evening on Monday, June the 3rd, Year 2002. 8 We'll call to order this special meeting of the Kerr County 9 Commissioners Court. The item for consideration on today's 10 agenda is to have the public hearing on Kerr County's 2000 11 Colonia Comprehensive Plan and Study. Before we have 12 Mr. Hartzell give a brief explanation of the program and the 13 plan, do any of the Commissioners wish to say anything? 14 Number 1? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nothing at this time, 16 Judge. Thank you. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Two? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing at this time, 19 Judge. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Number 3? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Nothing. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'll note for the record that 23 Larry Griffin, Commissioner Number 4, was previously 24 scheduled to be out of the country and is unavailable this 25 evening. So, the way we'll begin this evening is we'll ask 6-3-02 4 1 Mr. Hartzell from Grantworks to give a brief explanation of 2 the program and the study that's being conducted. Then we 3 will accept public comments. I'll ask you all to hold your 4 comments to not more than three minutes each, and if at all 5 possible, to avoid duplication. We would ask that when you 6 come to the podium to give your comments, that you give us 7 your name, address, and the -- actually the name of the 8 subdivision where you live, so that we can more 9 appropriately take note of the comments that you're 10 expressing on behalf of you and, I'm certain, many of your 11 neighbors. So, without any further ado, I'll introduce 12 Mr. Eric Hartzell from Grantworks, who's going to give us a 13 brief explanation of the program and the study. Eric? 14 MR. HARTZELL: Thank you, Judge Henneke and 15 Commissioners. I'm going to tilt this a little bit, if you 16 don't mind, so I can see everybody and they can see me. Put 17 this up here. For the record, I'm Eric Hartzell with 18 Grantworks from Austin. This study, which has obviously 19 become very interesting to everyone here, was first talked 20 about about two years ago by the County -- with the County. 21 It's a grant that's eligible to -- for counties within 22 150 miles of the U.S./Mexico border. And the basic purpose 23 of it is to target -- to figure out what needs are in the 24 unincorporated areas, in these areas for principally water 25 and sewer and housing. It also -- it's -- one of its goals 6-3-02 5 1 is to figure out if these needs can be matched up with 2 federal funds that are available out in the world, 3 particularly funds provided by the U.S. Department of 4 Housing and Urban Development, which is called H.U.D. I'll 5 refer to H.U.D. throughout, and that's who I'm talking about 6 when I say that. That's who funds those studies. 7 It's a federal program that's administered by 8 the State of Texas, and the State gives out the grants to 9 the various communities that apply. In the year that Kerr 10 County applied, they were the only applicant, so they got 11 funded. It was a -- a grant program to basically look at 12 all the unincorporated areas of the county, county-wide, all 13 the subdivisions, all the communities of any size in the 14 county, and that's what -- that's what the plan -- the first 15 phase of the plan was. In that first phase, we got 16 information from the Appraisal District on all of the 17 subdivisions and other communities, like Center Point, in 18 the county, and were able to map -- get maps created of 19 those areas, digital maps. And we took that data -- that 20 digital mapping and went out to each of the areas, and -- 21 and drove through them and did a visual survey of the land 22 uses in each area, and then of the housing types, looking at 23 whether there were manufactured homes or stick-built homes, 24 and then a visual condition survey. And, in the plan, 25 there's a -- a sort of a chart that explains what each of 6-3-02 6 1 the different kinds of housing conditions were and how we 2 determined those. 3 Once that was done, we started the task of 4 pulling together existing utility system data. And, as 5 y'all all probably know, living here, Kerr County has 6 numerous water providers. Many of them are -- I think all 7 of them actually are private, outside of the City of 8 Kerrville. And some of them involve several areas, like 9 AquaSource. Others are remaining independent. The second 10 thing we looked at, of course, was sewer, and there's not 11 any outside of city of Kerrville at this current time. Once 12 this information was all sort of pulled together, the 13 colonia criteria were applied. And the way that's done -- I 14 handed out handouts; I know there's a lot of -- 15 AUDIENCE: Define "colonia," please. 16 MR. HARTZELL: Sure. On your handout, the 17 definition of colonia -- actually, there's about ten 18 definitions, but the one that we are interested in here 19 tonight is H.U.D.'s definition. That's who is funding the 20 study. H.U.D.'s definition is any -- I'm sorry. Any 21 identifiable unincorporated community determined to be a 22 colonia on the basis of objective criteria, including lack 23 of potable water, lack of adequate sewage systems, and lack 24 of decent, safe, sanitary housing, and was in existence 25 prior to November 28, 1990. The reason for this date is 6-3-02 7 1 that's the date the federal law was put into place, and so 2 they don't want to deal with anything that happened after 3 that date. 4 Additionally, as the handout explains, 5 because this is a H.U.D. program, not only that definition, 6 but the requirement that at least half of the people living 7 there are what's considered low to moderate income, 8 80 percent of the county-wide median family income or below. 9 That's the -- the population characteristic has to be 10 present in that area. So, taking that information, we went 11 out and looked at lots and lots of areas. I think we looked 12 at maybe 40 different subdivisions in the county, and came 13 up with a fairly short list of -- typically -- and this is 14 where I know a lot of the concern has lied. If you look 15 about halfway down your page, these -- these studies have 16 been done all over Texas -- well, within 150 miles of the 17 border. Even some of your neighbors, I guess Medina and 18 Bandera have done these studies as well. 19 Typically, they like to cast the net -- I 20 think someone at the Commissioners Court last week said that 21 the net was cast very wide and very general, and it was. 22 And the reason for that is, these definitions allow a lot of 23 flexibility in what counties identify, which -- what areas 24 they identify, because most counties want to keep as many 25 areas eligible for these programs as possible, because we're 6-3-02 8 1 talking about millions of dollars that can be used for water 2 and sewer and housing improvements. So, typically the net 3 is -- is cast very wide, to include as many eligible areas 4 as possible. That's exactly what we did in this case, which 5 obviously has -- has upset many people. 6 AUDIENCE: Can I ask you a question? 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Excuse me, we've got to 8 proceed orderly. 9 AUDIENCE: Okay, go ahead. 10 MR. HARTZELL: Well, if the Commissioners 11 will allow me, once I'm finished, when you give your -- your 12 testimony or your input up here, if you have a direct 13 question for me then, I can -- I can answer that at the end 14 of your three minutes, or during your talk or however that 15 would be. 16 AUDIENCE: Okay. 17 MR. HARTZELL: That may be a good way to do 18 this. Okay, I'm sorry. Let's see. So, the net was cast 19 wide, and some areas were included that later we found out 20 were -- the residents weren't very pleased with that. On 21 the second page of your handout, you'll notice that we have 22 following public input. That's something else I want to 23 point out real quick. Planning studies -- I don't know how 24 familiar people are here with planning, but the way that it 25 typically works, it's a very -- it's a process that involves 6-3-02 9 1 local officials, it involves professional planners, and 2 involves the public. 3 And there were several meetings -- 4 Commissioners talked about these things at several meetings 5 as well that were public meetings, and the public was -- at 6 that point was pretty disinterested, I guess, 'cause nothing 7 controversial had happened. I don't like having public 8 participation this necessarily negative or upset, but it's 9 not always a bad thing. I'm glad -- I'm actually glad you 10 guys are here. I -- this is important for us, because this 11 was a draft plan, which you're all looking at right now; 12 everything you have in your hands is a draft. There were -- 13 might have been changes made to the draft you have, and 14 further changes that we're going to recommend as well, based 15 on a -- a groundswell, I'd say, of public input. Planning 16 is primarily a public process. We don't want this -- we 17 don't want this to be imposed upon anyone, which is why 18 we're reacting, we hope -- well, to what you want. 19 As you'll see on the -- the final -- the 20 second page, the -- initially, we renamed some of the areas, 21 because they met -- like, one of the criteria was not having 22 a sewer system, and might have had the density, but they 23 weren't particularly poor-quality housing or they had 24 adequate water systems. And I know that's where many of you 25 probably reside. And there was no way at that point for us 6-3-02 10 1 to determine the income levels. The only way income levels 2 can be determined -- and it's kind of a catch-22 -- in the 3 planning process, we have to guess, because you don't 4 actually go out and do a survey of the door-to-door 5 households until you have a project in-hand, where you're 6 applying for an actual construction grant. At that point, 7 we go out -- like, today we were in Kerrville South, 8 door-to-door, talking to people and getting them qualified 9 for the sewer system that's going into that area near -- off 10 Ranchero Road. And so that's something that comes farther 11 down the road, unless the census happens to have data for 12 your neighborhood. And there are only, I think, two 13 neighborhoods that there was any data from the Census Bureau 14 that -- on -- that indicated the low to mod percentages. 15 Typically, the census data is for a very 16 large part of the county, and so you may have 10 or 12 17 subdivisions within one census area, and so you can't really 18 tell what the numbers are for that particular neighborhood. 19 So we don't -- we don't use the -- we have to do the 20 door-to-door survey. So, none of these areas, with a few 21 exceptions, were -- were surveyed for low to mod. And 22 because of that, we decided that we made an assumption, in 23 casting the net too wide, that we shouldn't have made, and 24 we are recommending to -- to remove several of the areas 25 that were initially included in the colonia study. And 6-3-02 11 1 also, thanks to some of the input from the Commissioners 2 Court, found a couple areas we had missed, and those areas 3 are being added. And that's all spelled out for you here, 4 and -- on Page 2. 5 I think that's everything I want to cover 6 right now. I'm sure y'all still have many comments, and I 7 know we don't want to be here all night, so I guess we can 8 open things up. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Thank you, Eric. 10 MR. HARTZELL: Thank you. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Why don't you just -- 12 MR. HARTZELL: I'll sit right here. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- sit right here, and if 14 anyone has a question they'd like to address to you as part 15 of the comments, that's part of the purpose here, is to 16 clear up any misinformation and to provide us with the 17 necessary information that we need in order to -- to do the 18 best for Kerr County. We're just going to go through these 19 people that have signed up, and in the order that I've been 20 given the sheets. If you -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can I ask Eric to clarify 22 one thing? 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sure. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, Fawn Run, Quail Run, 25 Mills -- Miller, and Silver Creek Estates are no longer part 6-3-02 12 1 of the -- 2 MR. HARTZELL: That's correct. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're being deleted 4 completely? 5 MR. HARTZELL: There deleted. They're not 6 mentioned. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're not in the plan? 8 Or -- 9 MR. HARTZELL: Actually up here on the map as 10 non-colonia areas. That's a subdivision. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're not even as 12 redesignated, or potentially -- 13 MR. HARTZELL: No. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're nothing? 15 MR. HARTZELL: Well, also, part of the 16 decision process was, as someone also pointed out at the 17 hearing, why are we in there if we're not getting any 18 improvements in the next 10 years? And that -- I thought, 19 well, that makes sense, so they were removed. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Again, we're going to 22 take these in the order that -- which I've been given them. 23 If anyone who did not sign up wishes to speak, you may do so 24 at the end of the comments by those who have signed the 25 participation form. We do not intend for this meeting to be 6-3-02 13 1 exclusive, but inclusive, and we'll be here as long as 2 any -- as the number of you wish to speak. However, in 3 light of the time and the number of people who do wish to 4 speak, we are going to gently insist that you keep your 5 comments to three minutes or less. We'll begin with Vicky 6 Russell. 7 MS. RUSSELL: Okay. At our last meeting, 8 y'all kept -- or you added the language -- 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Excuse me, ma'am. You need 10 to give us your name and subdivision. 11 MS. RUSSELL: My name is Vicky Russell. I 12 live in Turtle Creek Ranches, okay? And, y'all had said 13 that these specs were set by the State, and I just want to 14 say, make sure that we meet the specs. Don't guess, as this 15 gentleman was saying that they had to guess at the income 16 levels. The 1990 census figures were used. Those are 12 17 years out-of-date. We need to use the 2000 census. A 18 drive-by examination of the housing -- I live behind a 19 locked gate; you can't see my house. And many of the houses 20 out in Turtle Creek are the same way. So -- also, I meant 21 to bring copies of the work on our water and sell -- or 22 septic system, which should be -- meet any qualifications. 23 We've had no problems with them since we moved in. It's not 24 a low quality. We live 15 miles from Kerrville, and we 25 moved out there because we did not want to be regulated by 6-3-02 14 1 city regulations. I mean, how far out do we have to go? 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Lewis Cosby? 3 MR. COSBY: Good evening, gentlemen. My name 4 is Lewis Cosby, and I'm a resident of Silver Creek Estates. 5 Our subdivision is in Precinct 2. The opportunity to speak 6 to you, our elected officials, afforded us under the 7 Constitution is one of our most important rights. I am very 8 pleased that so many people and citizens have come tonight 9 to speak to you, and to hear from the swell. All of us live 10 in the unincorporated areas of Kerr County, or perhaps a 11 better phrase to use would be we live in the country. We 12 work, raise families, pay taxes. Many of us volunteer as 13 mentors for children or for different service programs in 14 the city and county. Our lives are not unlike yours, 15 gentlemen. We are very busy. We expect our representatives 16 at county government not -- to not only look out for our 17 interests, but also to keep us informed as to what they are 18 doing in our names. 19 I think in some cases they do that. I 20 understand that they cannot do this in all cases. However, 21 when they do something that affects the market value of our 22 homes or how we are perceived by our other neighbors in the 23 county, I believe we have the right to be informed before 24 action is taken by this Court. There may well have been 25 articles in the local newspapers concerning a colonia study, 6-3-02 15 1 or that the County was requesting colonia grants from the 2 state and federal government, but as for information 3 concerning the designation of our subdivisions as colonias, 4 that was first reported on the weekend of the 4th and 5th of 5 May on the front page of the Kerrville Daily Times. I and 6 the people gathered here tonight want to know why; that by 7 the time that this was on the front page, it was too late 8 for us to -- as citizens, to protest it. Three working days 9 later, this Court was requesting bids on the Kerrville South 10 Wastewater Project. Two working days after that, they 11 accepted bids for the construction to be started. 12 The Kerrville Daily Times had the information 13 more than a month before this Court conducted a workshop 14 with the U.G.R.A. at their headquarters at 1 p.m. in the 15 afternoon on the 22nd of April. The Times before told me 16 that the workshop was advertised in their paper, and it was, 17 on Page 6C, lower left corner of their weekend edition, 20 18 and 21 April, 2002. How many people did the Court expect 19 would be able to take off work and attend this so-called 20 public workshop? Representatives of the Kerrville Daily 21 Times and the Mountain Sun were there. Two days later, the 22 Mountain Sun wrote an article about it. They have a small 23 circulation. Maybe we should all be taking the Mountain 24 Sun; they print the news. The news -- the Times waited for 25 11 calendar days, or 10 issues, before they printed the 6-3-02 16 1 front-page article which informed us as citizens that our 2 subdivisions were designated as colonias. Why? Why were we 3 not informed earlier? Perhaps we could have organized a 4 protest. I don't think this Court wanted us to know. I 5 don't think they wanted the people to represent -- they 6 represent to throw a monkey wrench into their plans. 7 This last Saturday, I passed out 150 8 handbills advertising this meeting, and I asked two 9 questions of my neighbors. What is the hidden agenda of the 10 Commissioners Court? Who is their straw man? Let me define 11 "straw man." According to the American Heritage Dictionary, 12 straw man is a person who is set up as cover or front man 13 for a questionable enterprise. I believe the public 14 designation of our subdivisions as colonia is the straw -- 15 is the straw man. After all, we are not here -- we are here 16 tonight loudly voicing our indignation to the Court 17 concerning the damage we feel has been done to our property 18 market value. Do not all of us feel betrayed by 19 representatives and this Court? I believe we were. What is 20 the hidden agenda? I say hidden, because this is another 21 item that we have not been given the whole story by the 22 local media. 23 Last Monday in court, you unanimously voted 24 to spend $6,200 of colonia construction grant money to hire 25 the law firm of McGinnis, Lockridge and Kilgore, LLC, of 6-3-02 17 1 Austin to create a wastewater service agreement between the 2 City of Kerrville and U.G.R.A. for Kerrville South 3 Wastewater Project. U.G.R.A., after all, has to have 4 someplace to accept their wastewater. This is where it gets 5 dangerous for us as taxpayers. These new colonia grants and 6 other -- and others which the Court has applied for are 7 insufficient, according to the Court and Grantworks' own 8 study and testimony, to complete these far-reaching 9 projects. And by that, I mean outside the Kerrville South 10 Wastewater Project. It will include not only wastewater, 11 but also drinking water systems for many of the so-called 12 colonias. This Court's plan is to turn over all of these 13 projects to the U.G.R.A. for operation, collection of 14 service fees, and completion of programs. Where will the 15 money come from? 16 Please be mindful of the following facts: 17 U.G.R.A. is a taxing entity. The U.G.R.A. has bonding 18 authority. Will the U.G.R.A. request that bonds be sold to 19 raise money to complete these projects? I think so. Who 20 pays off these bonds? You, the taxpayers, do with your 21 property taxes. Can you, as a taxpayer, do anything about 22 the U.G.R.A.'s raising your property taxes? No, you cannot, 23 not effectively. They have an appointed board, not elected 24 like the Commissioners and the County Judge. We can't send 25 the U.G.R.A. board packing when they do this. Does that 6-3-02 18 1 sound like taxation without representation? You bet it 2 does. Now you see why it's been hidden. 3 I, for one, will not forget the way in which 4 this Court has acted. I hope the citizens assembled here 5 will not forget come election time what these men have done 6 in our names. I can only assume that they will stand up and 7 say, "We have solved the Kerrville South wastewater problem. 8 How smart we are." I say, "But at what expense to our 9 liberty?" I am not opposed, personally -- and I mean this 10 sincerely, people -- to correcting the problems in Kerrville 11 South. I really am not opposed to that. But, as a 12 taxpayer, I want to have a say in how it is accomplished, 13 since I will be paying for it with my tax money. Do they 14 not trust the people? I'm speaking of the Court now. I 15 don't think so. Don't they have the courage to stand up and 16 do the things in the light of the day? I will leave that 17 answer to the people in Kerr County. Thank you, sir, 18 gentlemen. Appreciate it. 19 (Applause.) 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: William Magill. 21 MR. MAGILL: William Magill, Silver Creek 22 Estates. Thank you for hearing us. I'd just like to concur 23 with Mr. Cosby. I think the agenda is all on you. I think 24 you're trying to get out of a situation where you have any 25 kind of responsibility to the voters; that you're trying to 6-3-02 19 1 set up an organization between you and the people so that we 2 have no recourse to come back if they increase rates. And I 3 just think if you would do this properly and do it the way 4 that you're supposed to, and let the people vote on it, you 5 might have come out a lot better. Thank you. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: I'm going to exercise a 7 little discretion here and point out to everybody that no 8 one is required to participate in any -- in the Kerrville 9 South Wastewater Project. It is totally voluntary on the 10 part of the homeowners. Now, the project, the way it's 11 created, will pay for 100 percent of the costs of taking a 12 homeowner from a septic system to a central wastewater 13 treatment system. No one has to participate. And I think 14 that's important, that no one here has the idea of setting 15 up an organization that you have to belong to, that you have 16 to contribute to. If your system is fine and there's no 17 problem with your system, you don't want to be hooked up to 18 the central wastewater treatment, that's entirely up to you. 19 There's no compulsion -- the County does not have the 20 authority to require you to hook up. U.G.R.A. does not have 21 the authority to require you to hook up. The project we've 22 undergone -- undertaken in Kerrville South is an entirely 23 voluntary program on the part of the homeowners. 24 AUDIENCE: Is the water included also? 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: There's no water in the 6-3-02 20 1 project in Kerrville South. It's strictly wastewater. 2 AUDIENCE: But even if we don't -- 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Excuse me, sir. We can't -- 4 we can't colloquy like this. When your turn comes, I'll be 5 happy to answer your question. Don Davis. 6 MR. DAVIS: My name is Don Davis. I live at 7 12 -- I don't even know where I live. 8 (Laughter.) 9 MR. DAVIS: 1524 Upper Turtle Creek, on 1273. 10 I didn't really know that I lived in an estate. I guess 11 it's Turtle Creek Ranch Estates. When I read that all of 12 this included Molina Drive, I was reminded that Mr. Molina 13 dug his own well and his own septic by hand, and lived to 14 the ripe old age of 77. We have an adequate water supply. 15 I personally have just built a home and have spent thousands 16 of dollars on septics and pumps and trying to be in 17 regulation with U.G.R.A. I'm a little bit dismayed that 18 H.U.D. would call these areas colonias. Gentlemen, I can 19 take you to Mexico and I can show you a colonia, and there's 20 no place on 1273 that looks like anything close to what that 21 is down there. And I -- I am greatly insulted that they 22 would use this terminology. But I do salute H.U.D., because 23 I have friends that have acquired homes, and I think that's 24 a great thing that they've done, to build homes for people 25 who really need those things. 6-3-02 21 1 We are not a densely developed community, 2 another statement I wanted to make. And forming a new 3 public water supply corporation or a water district, to me, 4 is just another boondoggle. And it seems that we have spent 5 about eight years now trying to get out of the big 6 government problems that we've had, and it looks like that 7 this is just going to put us right back into the same 8 situation. Ownership by U.G.R.A., I think, would be a big 9 mistake, 'cause as the gentleman stated, we already know 10 what -- what their agenda is. And extension and ownership 11 by private water supply, I'm sure there are some people that 12 already have their mouths salivating, wanting to get in on 13 that one. I don't know what W C.I.D. is, that used to be in 14 operation. But regulations on the present water wells and 15 pumps, to me, are essential, but I think the -- the people 16 really are kind of tired of having taxation without 17 representation. I suggest there are two low-water crossings 18 on 1273 that, when it rains pretty good, there's about five 19 foot of water coming down those creeks, and that we've tried 20 to get those bridges raised. I think that -- that probably 21 you could find a way to trap that water and then you could 22 sell it to the colonia of the City of Kerrville. 23 (Laughter and applause.) 24 MR. DAVIS: And when it does rain like that, 25 these poor and destitute people of Turtle Creek can't get 6-3-02 22 1 out to go to work so they won't be poor and destitute, and 2 take their children to school so they won't be ignorant and 3 live like they are right now. 4 (Laughter and applause.) 5 MR. DAVIS: I just find it absurd that anyone 6 with half a brain cell would -- would think that there is a 7 corporation -- I'll tell you what I would like for them to 8 do. If they really want to spend that money and give it 9 away, I'll take a check from them anytime they want to give 10 it to me, and I'll do my own thing and I won't worry about 11 it. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 13 (Applause.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mark Wittlinger. 15 MR. HARTZELL: Judge Henneke, may I speak 16 real quick on Turtle Creek? 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, you may. 18 MR. HARTZELL: To answer one of the other 19 changes that actually has been made on Turtle Creek, and 20 this is -- again, we went and drove it again today. We 21 drove down Molina and up Keith Boulevard -- is that right? 22 Okay. And, Keith Boulevard South, I believe, the -- the 23 area that meets the technical definition. Now, that's a big 24 boo, I guess, but it -- including it or not including it, if 25 you don't want it in there -- and it sounds like the ones 6-3-02 23 1 who are here from that neighborhood don't want it in 2 there -- then Commissioners can tell us to take it out, and 3 it will be out. That's fine. Okay. Oh, and -- yeah, some 4 people -- some people were here last week. Already, we've 5 -- there was a complaint, I believe, based on the fact I 6 think the map showed the entire subdivision included, and 7 that isn't -- that was an error. That shouldn't have been 8 the -- the designated area for assistance. Only the area on 9 Molina, and then on Upper Turtle Creek as you round the 10 corner, on the opposite side of the creek from Molina. 11 AUDIENCE: Garner Road. 12 MR. HARTZELL: Is that the name? 13 AUDIENCE: Garner Road is in as bad a shape 14 as y'all claim that Molina is. 15 MR. HARTZELL: Okay. Like, around the corner 16 there, and then if you go up Keith, there's a few mobile 17 homes on the -- on both sides of the street there, and 18 someone mentioned those might be hunting -- hunting lodges. 19 We can't tell from driving by. But, again, it was a 20 suggestion; it doesn't have to be followed. Nothing that's 21 going to happen in any of these plans is not going to happen 22 if people in the communities don't support them. The 23 County's not going to go forward, or U.G.R.A. or anybody 24 else. They don't have -- have the license, and they 25 certainly can't withstand the political heat of going 6-3-02 24 1 forward with anything that the public does -- adamantly 2 opposes, which is clear in this case, that at least people 3 here representing Turtle Creek don't want a water system to 4 be considered ever, or in the planning period for Molina. 5 Commissioners can tell us kill it; we'll kill it. It's 6 not -- it's not a hard and fast thing. 7 (Several people speaking at once.) 8 MR. HARTZELL: Okay? They'll give us their 9 instructions. We'll do what you want. 10 AUDIENCE: Are you going to kill it? 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: We're not posted to take any 12 action tonight. We are listening very hard. 13 MR. HARTZELL: Oh, one other thing. The 1990 14 census issue, someone brought that up as well. 15 AUDIENCE: Next election, we'll -- 16 MR. HARTZELL: The 1990 census, the reason 17 that those figures are used is that the 2000 census, 18 although it's been completed, the low to mod income figures 19 that -- that H.U.D. uses for calculating its program 20 beneficiaries, the people who benefit from its programs, 21 have not been done, and they won't be done till next year. 22 So, that's why we're using old data; we don't have a choice. 23 But you're right, ten years is a long time, and things have 24 changed. That's the best data we had. 25 MR. DAVIS: Will you send us our check next 6-3-02 25 1 year? 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Mark Wittlinger. 3 MR. WITTLINGER: Thanks for serving, and 4 thanks for listening to us on this special session. I'm 5 mark Wittlinger, owner of property at 1520 Upper Turtle 6 Creek. The criteria that's put forth in that H.U.D. 7 definition I don't think applies. I think everybody in here 8 would agree with that. The issue of potable water, decent 9 safe housing, and adequate sewage or septic, I think they're 10 all okay. I think everybody feels that way. If they 11 didn't, they'd fix it. So I don't -- 12 AUDIENCE: Mark -- we can't hear you, Mark. 13 MR. WITTLINGER: Is this better? 14 AUDIENCE: Yes. 15 MR. WITTLINGER: I am sorry. Anyway, the 16 criteria I don't think applies to anybody. I think if it 17 did, they would have fixed it by now. The -- I think if 18 areas do need it, apply it. You know, go for the grant. 19 But I don't think that Turtle Creek needs it. Another issue 20 is, to do this, somebody's going to have to lose some land 21 to eminent domain. I'm not sure who's going to want to give 22 up their land. I don't think anybody wants to give up any 23 of their land at this point. The issue of nonmandatory 24 participation could change in the future, depending upon 25 laws and legislation and whatnot. But, anyway, I just want 6-3-02 26 1 to say I'm opposed to it, and appreciate you listening. 2 Thanks. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, sir. Arthur 4 Nagel? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My good friend Arthur 6 Nagel. 7 AUDIENCE: He said not any more. 8 MR. NAGEL: I'm in trouble before I even get 9 here. 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. NAGEL: My name is Arthur Nagel, 12 N-a-g-e-l. I live in the city of -- the beautiful 13 Kerrville. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Arthur, pull the mic 15 a little closer to you. 16 MR. NAGEL: I have been in communication with 17 the Rural Community Affairs organization in Austin, and we 18 are discussing some issues that need to be brought before 19 the Legislature in 2003. As a result of that, material that 20 I have provided to Rural Community Affairs is providing 21 copies to Senator Wentworth and to Representative 22 Hilderbran. One thing that I am very opposed to, gentlemen, 23 is the designation of colonias existing for a depth of 150 24 miles from the Texas international border. That brings us 25 into an area qualifying for colonias money. We do need 6-3-02 27 1 money for water, sewage, roads, but we do not need it under 2 the heading of having any colonias. We do not have any 3 colonias. The criteria that this corporation used is a 4 H.U.D. criteria for defining a colonia. The definition for 5 a colonia in Texas law is in Government Code 2700, passed by 6 Senate Bill 1509 in 1995. 7 At that time, some water representatives did 8 advocate the 150-mile stretch. No one opposed it at that 9 time. Everybody wanted some of that money. Colonias, as 10 this corporation has pictured some of our 30- and 11 35-year-old subdivisions who were created -- that were 12 created prior to the creation of subdivision rules for this 13 county, in no way mimic a single colonia on the 14 international border of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and 15 California. Colonias, when created 20 years ago by 16 distrusting and distasteful county officials and landowners, 17 existed by selling a third of an acre, a half of an acre, on 18 a contract of sale. No road was built in what had, in the 19 past, been a cotton field. No water system was created. No 20 sewage collection system was designed, nor were these people 21 encouraged or financed in order to have an approved on-site 22 sewage treatment facility. 23 Our people all have a water connection. Our 24 people all have an on-site sewage collection facility. This 25 company acknowledges they did a windshield inspection of the 6-3-02 28 1 areas that people in this county told them where to go to 2 look for colonias. I want the record to show that I 3 strongly object to anybody in this county telling anyone 4 where poor people live, to be very blunt. But with their 5 windshield inspections, they decided that some houses were 6 deteriorated. They decided that some didn't have much of an 7 income, by the way they live. And this count -- this 8 corporation has the audacity to tell this county over the 9 next 10 years, you go out there and you pick up those 10 broken-down, abandoned automobiles and dispose of them. 11 Where do we do that in fine Kerr County? 12 This corporation tells us that the housing 13 that they saw during their tours of these areas that 14 appeared to be deteriorated, we should tell Grandmother 15 Juanita Gonzales to move out, and we're going to tear your 16 house down and we're going to put a new one there over the 17 next 10 years, with federal dollars. What are we going to 18 do with Grandmother Juanita Gonzales while all that fancy 19 stuff is going on? Do we have public housing? No. Do we 20 have waste disposal in Kerr County serving anybody, 21 anywhere, anytime, that can take abandoned automobiles to 22 get rid of them? They didn't tell us where to find these 23 houses that are deteriorated, and they didn't tell us where 24 to find the abandoned automobiles and other things, so I 25 don't know what you got for your money paid. 6-3-02 29 1 But I'm saying, in all probability, at the 2 state level, there's going to be some talk about reducing 3 the width of the colonias area to something drastically 4 smaller than 150 miles, so that the moneys needed for roads 5 and for water systems and waste collection systems will be 6 obtained under other names that the politicians will come 7 forth with instead of the word colonias, and reserve the 8 word colonias to truly fit our international border area. 9 You bet this county and other counties needs money for -- 10 this far inland needs money for roads and for water and for 11 sewage. We just have to get it under another name, such as 12 underdeveloped communities, something like that. Reserve 13 the word colonias for only that which started the issue, 14 which was, as the gentleman has pointed out, from Mexico, on 15 the Mexican/Texas border. And I'm here to simply say, 16 Kerrville has -- Kerr County has no colonias. We -- under 17 the distressed economic conditions specified in the Water 18 Code, everybody out there has a water connection. Everybody 19 has a sewage treatment facility. The only thing that goes 20 for us is that we're 150 miles from the Rio Grande River. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, Mr. Nagel. 22 (Applause.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Virginia Weston? 24 MS. WESTON: I'm not going to say much more 25 about colonias, because I believe the previous speaker has 6-3-02 30 1 held that subject adequately. I want to get something 2 clear, Mr. Hartzell. 3 MR. HARTZELL: Sure. 4 MS. WESTON: I believe that what we're 5 discussing tonight is really just the first step. Your 6 company is involved in -- in getting application for a grant 7 for the County for about $75,000 to do mapping and planning? 8 MR. HARTZELL: Right, that's what this study 9 is. 10 MS. WESTON: Right, okay. So -- and then if 11 they do the mapping and the planning, that would be at no 12 cost to the County if they get the grant, correct? 13 MR. HARTZELL: Yeah. The planning -- the 14 planning grant is a 100 percent grant to the County. 15 MS. WESTON: Okay. So they would do the 16 mapping and the planning, and at that point, U.G.R.A. would 17 step in, get a bond, and then -- 18 MR. HARTZELL: No. 19 MS. WESTON: -- all the stuff would start 20 getting torn up -- 21 MR. HARTZELL: No. 22 MS. WESTON: -- starting to put pipes in? 23 MR. HARTZELL: Well, actually, right now -- 24 right now, what's happening with the first project in 25 Kerrville South, U.G.R.A. -- U.G.R.A. is putting in some 6-3-02 31 1 money for engineering, and the County is putting in no money 2 right now. U.G.R.A. didn't pass bonds to do that. I think 3 they're using -- I'm not sure what they're using; general 4 revenue of some sort, I don't know. That money, plus the 5 grant money, is being used to construct -- to pay for 6 engineering and the construction costs in Kerrville South. 7 MS. WESTON: Okay. I forgot to identify 8 myself. Virginia Weston, Turtle Creek Ranches. That's why 9 I started talking about torn up roads. Okay. So, we're 10 still at -- at the baby pace, so -- and that's why 11 Grantworks comes in -- 12 MR. HARTZELL: Right. The reason -- again, 13 the reason the plan -- that anyone ever wants to have a plan 14 is, no one has a good idea all in one place of what's even 15 out there, and so, again, we cast the net kind of wide to 16 get as much as we could of -- a picture of what the rural 17 communities looked like. 18 MS. WESTON: Right. 19 MR. HARTZELL: And in doing so, obviously, 20 the stigma attached with colonia, it upset people. And -- 21 and we are -- 22 MS. WESTON: Yeah, very much so. We should 23 not use that in south Texas. 24 MR. HARTZELL: In -- you mean Kerr County? 25 MS. WESTON: No, you shouldn't use that in 6-3-02 32 1 south Texas. 2 MR. HARTZELL: I'm sorry? 3 MS. WESTON: You shouldn't use this term in 4 south Texas. 5 (Applause.) 6 MS. WESTON: Shouldn't use the term in south 7 Texas. 8 MR. HARTZELL: What term? Colonia? 9 MS. WESTON: Colonia. You should not use 10 that term in south Texas. 11 MR. HARTZELL: Why? 12 MS. WESTON: It's racist. 13 MR. HARTZELL: Do you think so? 14 MS. WESTON: It's -- you should not use that 15 term. We cannot use that term; it's wrong. 16 MR. HARTZELL: The counties in Texas apply 17 for these funds all the time. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Can we -- let's go ahead with 19 the public comments. 20 MS. WESTON: I simply wanted to get that -- I 21 wanted to understand, 'cause I was on the Internet and just 22 dug up an article from the Kerrville Daily Times two years 23 ago, and figured out who Mr. Hartzell was and what was going 24 on here with the $75,000. Another question for 25 Mr. Hartzell. If this grant goes through, you're not going 6-3-02 33 1 to come to my door and ask me what my income is, are you? 2 MR. HARTZELL: If -- if a grant -- if Turtle 3 Creek -- I don't know -- you live in Turtle Creek? Let's 4 say -- 5 MS. WESTON: Dingly View. 6 MR. HARTZELL: Dingly View, all right. Okay. 7 Let's say in five years -- 8 MS. WESTON: Uh-huh. 9 MR. HARTZELL: -- if Dingly View -- say they 10 wanted to get together and set up a water system and put 11 water in on Dingly View, and you wanted to get a grant to do 12 that. Then, yes, we would, but that would be at your 13 instigation. 14 MS. WESTON: So we will have a choice? 15 MR. HARTZELL: You will have a choice. 16 MS. WESTON: Okay. Our ultimate goal here -- 17 and I wanted to address this to y'all, and also to my 18 neighbors. Our ultimate goal, and we all want this, is safe 19 water. I don't want to drink water that someone has also 20 flushed their toilet in. And I also want my neighbors to 21 know, we own -- it may not be the people in this room, 22 because we're concerned, and the man that put that brightly 23 yellow -- that bright yellow piece of paper in my mailbox is 24 not one of these people, but some of our neighbors are not 25 good stewards of the environment. I'm not a tree-hugger, 6-3-02 34 1 but I'm concerned about the water that I drink, and I'm 2 concerned about the water that my neighbors drink. And 3 these men are, too. U.G.R.A. is not our enemy, and these 4 men aren't our enemy. But, gentlemen, we live out there 5 because we cherish our independence, so we all need to try 6 to figure out some way to make sure that we're not 7 endangering our health, that we aren't screwing our 8 neighbors, but that our -- that we're taking care of each 9 other, and that we're helping these men figure out a way to 10 do it as well. Because we know that we're not -- not 11 everybody out there is -- is spending the money that it 12 takes to put in a good system. We know that everybody out 13 there isn't maintaining their systems properly. Not 14 everybody cares like -- like all of us in this room do, and 15 not like all the guys here who are taking all our heat, so 16 we also have got to keep that in mind. But I don't want you 17 tearing up my roads, either, and I like my well. 18 (Laughter.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 20 MS. WESTON: Thank you very much. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Edward Moore? 22 MR. MOORE: If I may, please? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 24 (Handed document to Commissioners and Judge.) 25 MR. MOORE: I'm Edward Moore. I live at 105 6-3-02 35 1 Molina Road, Upper Turtle Creek Estates, Rancho Oaks, 2 whatever you want to call it. It's a nice place, wonderful 3 place. This gentleman said he drove through today. He 4 better clear his windows up. If he drove down Molina, he 5 didn't find anything there that was in ill repair that I can 6 think of. I'll tell you right now that three of those 7 properties on that road have changed in the last year. 8 Everyone that has moved in there has made other changes, 9 improvements. Two of us drilled wells; both of them drilled 10 to 540 feet. We're pumping from about 480. The cost was 11 $15,000-plus each. And, let me tell you something; we did 12 this because we want the quality of life. We got our 13 permits, we went through Headwaters, we went through 14 U.G.R.A. 15 I want to tell you a little something about 16 my attitude toward U.G.R.A., gentlemen. Headwaters 17 recommended, because I live in Upper Turtle Creek, I had to 18 go get a floodplain. They wanted to be sure this well 19 wouldn't be in the 100-year floodplain. Well, I told them, 20 "Look at my survey; I've got it right here." "Oh, no. Go 21 see them." The gentleman couldn't tell me what my 22 floodplain was on my plat. They couldn't find my plat. Not 23 only that, whenever we made the appointment, he was late. 24 Competence question. But he, as a courtesy, signed off. He 25 said, "Well, it looks like you're okay," satisfying 6-3-02 36 1 Headwaters. I got the well drilled, being told I need a 2 water sample test. I went down to the lady at the front 3 desk. I said, "I need everything to get a new well tested." 4 "Okay, that will cost you so much dollars, and here you go." 5 I went down to get the results of the test. 6 They said, "Well, you needed another model." Now, you know, 7 I drill wells all the time. You think I want to have people 8 like that handling anything on my site pertaining to water? 9 When they came out and they checked my septics when I bought 10 the property in February of 2001, the holes were open. He 11 said, "That's a leaker." The other hole -- there's two on 12 my property, by the way. The other one, "Oh, that's fine." 13 Now, how does that test -- how's that a test? I am sorry, I 14 don't believe that that's a test. But they got $65 for each 15 hole. Okay. I -- am I getting serviced by U.G.R.A.? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sir, I'm sorry, we're here to 17 talk about the colonias. 18 MR. MOORE: I am telling you what I don't 19 want -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Not U.G.R.A. or Headwaters. 21 MR. MOORE: I understand. I'm going to tell 22 you. But, here's the deal. If this goes -- and I 23 appreciate you. I do. If this goes, they have rights over 24 us that they shouldn't have in the future, and I don't want 25 them to have those rights. My experience with them today is 6-3-02 37 1 poor. Another little thing; maybe AquaSource would buy the 2 local water supply. Do -- do you think our people up here 3 in Molina Road in Upper Turtle Creek Estates, all these 4 wonderful people want to go through what Ingram's going 5 through with that very company right now? Do you think we 6 want to get into that? 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Hope not. 8 MR. MOORE: Well, we don't -- thank you, sir. 9 We agree. Now, those of us that live on the creek, right on 10 it -- I live across the creek, but most of the people live 11 right on the creek. They have a perfect water supply from 12 the creek. They don't have to drill wells. Do you think 13 that they need somebody to pipe them water? They've got 14 water. I've got water. But if you regulate -- send it out 15 there, they're going to tell us, "You can only have so much, 16 and this is the rate you're going to pay. You're going to 17 pay it monthly." Now, I gave you these papers because some 18 of the -- in some of those things, they mention the year 19 2000. The gentleman here has answered some of that 20 question. I don't like the idea that just because a study 21 needs to be made, that we're going to go back to 1990 22 information, either. I don't think that's a good study; I 23 think it's flawed. 24 Whenever they said the Upper Turtle Creek, 25 Molina Road and that area fits into parameters, there's a 6-3-02 38 1 water thing in there that says no water is -- is one, and 2 something -- and needs water is three -- or is two, rather. 3 But on the back sheet -- well, if you get back in there, 4 you'll find out that -- that we came up with a number of 5 four. If you'll look at Page 23, you'll see where it says 6 zero is with no major needs. One, needs line replacement; 7 two, unserved homes or supply problems. Well, when you're 8 going back here, this other page, which would have been Page 9 44, when they got the water, they give us a three. I don't 10 see a three on that other thing. And that one number alone, 11 when they put a three there instead of a two, that would 12 throw Turtle Creek Ranches up into the number two bracket. 13 To me, it should be on the bottom, plain and simple. Now, 14 am I reading my numbers wrong? If I am, I stand to be 15 corrected. But, here again, I feel this study that is 16 proposed to you gentlemen for your consideration to help us 17 is flawed. I don't believe it's well. 18 Now, I think I ought to tell you, too, that I 19 didn't move out there by accident. I moved out there with 20 my dad and stepmother in a mobile home. My wife and I live 21 in a beautiful reconstruction -- reconstructed limestone 22 cattle barn. It's a 2-bedroom, 2-bath. It's a beautiful 23 thing. I'm improving the property all around. My neighbors 24 just down the street, they moved in and they're improving 25 their property. Give us another ten years; I'll show you 6-3-02 39 1 what a colonia didn't look like, believe me. We have a nice 2 place on Molina Road. The whole area through there, the 3 people on Upper Turtle Creek Road have nice homes. I don't 4 agree with this at all. I ask you gentlemen to consider 5 this to be a null and void thing. Don't do us any favors. 6 It wouldn't be if you did it. Thank you very much, 7 gentlemen. I appreciate your time. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, sir. Cynthia 9 Hurayt. 10 MS. HURAYT: Hi. Okay, I was here last week, 11 and I went over some of the criteria that showed that 12 including Turtle Creek Ranches in this colonia thing was 13 tantamount to fraud, because we didn't meet any of the 14 criteria. Mr. Hartzell was kind enough to narrow it down 15 some, so that it may meet the criteria for the density 16 requirement now. I still live up that road he was talking 17 about, up Keith Boulevard, up that-away, and I can tell you, 18 once you get across from Molina, you're headed into 10-acre 19 tracts. Everyone on Molina, everyone on the creek has their 20 own well. They have their own septic. As Judge Henneke 21 said, no one has to hook up. When you go into an area of 22 nice homes where everybody has their own well, their own 23 septic, unless -- we don't have to hook up unless at some 24 point we're incorporated, and then it's beyond our control. 25 So, down the road someday, we may be forced to hook up to 6-3-02 40 1 this. 2 And I just don't see how he could go into an 3 area like Molina, Turtle Creek, on the creek, up Keith 4 Boulevard, and say that we are right after Wood Creek on 5 this list of need. I -- I imagine everybody down there is 6 familiar with Wood Creek. So, he's narrowed it down. I 7 can't disprove it on the basis of density any more; however, 8 I think he needs to take a hard look at the income level in 9 that area. There's many, many professionals out there 10 that -- the population has changed dramatically in the six 11 years I've been there, and homes are going up all the time, 12 and they're nice homes and they're professionals living out 13 there. He says he did a drive-by survey to determine 14 substandard housing. On my road alone, five of the eight 15 homes you can't even see. 16 Regarding central water and sewer, like I 17 said, we all have our own, and they're fine. Now, he gets 18 down to the -- this whole thing of U.G.R.A. Even 19 Mr. Hartzell said these colonia funds are not going to be 20 enough to fund the entire project. And, once again, it 21 looks like we're going to be the people that are going to go 22 ahead and pay for this, whether we need it or not. We might 23 be paying for other people's or not, but I just strongly 24 suspect that they have included a lot of these subdivisions 25 in order to pad their data to get more funding. 6-3-02 41 1 Now, last time I guess Mr. Cosby was 2 representing Silver Creek Estates, and they did him a favor 3 by demoting it from a colonia to a potentially eligible 4 area, P.E.A. After some protest, they changed a few of 5 these subdivisions to P.E.A. Now, I got the minutes to that 6 meeting, and in the minutes, y'all admit that this is just 7 something he came up with and semantics, I believe you said 8 it was, and feel-good words. And, when it -- he was asked 9 if P.E.A. could be used in all the funding paperwork, he 10 said, and I quote, "It would be kind of hard for us to get 11 away with it. What we could possibly do is, what we turn in 12 to the State for their review could use that terminology 13 that they require" -- the State -- "and then we could come 14 back later and modify the language in the County's plan." 15 Your P.E.A. is a meaningless term that does not -- it 16 doesn't do anything for us. And I submit to you now that 17 any subdivision that does not now meet the criteria, all of 18 the criteria, the H.U.D. criteria, should be removed 19 entirely from the list of colonias, and that includes Turtle 20 Creek Ranches. 21 (Applause.) 22 MS. HURAYT: The main -- the only two points 23 I want to make, Grantworks, they're just hired to do their 24 job. They get paid to get funding for these projects, and 25 they're doing it the best way they know how. It might not 6-3-02 42 1 be what we think is a good way. It's my considered opinion 2 that they have been deliberately loose and subjective, not 3 "objective," like it says in the H.U.D. definition. They've 4 been subjective in their compilation of data, padding it by 5 included areas that absolutely fail to meet the criteria, 6 and this is what I consider fraudulent. And when my 7 property values start to suffer as a result of this, then 8 I'm going to do all I can to make sure everybody knows about 9 what I think is fraud. 10 The second thing is that our elected county 11 officials seem intent on making U.G.R.A., a river authority 12 with taxing authority and zero accountability to taxpayers, 13 into a major utility company. Does anybody here really want 14 their utility fees determined and assessed by a politically 15 appointed entity? I think not. Thank you. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 17 (Applause.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, we're a little 19 more than halfway through the people that have signed up to 20 comment, so I'd like to suggest we take a 10-minute break 21 and reconvene at a quarter to 8:00. 22 (Recess taken from 7:35 p.m. to 7:45 p.m.) 23 - - - - - - - - - - 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, folks. If we could 25 settle down, we could reconvene and allow the rest of the 6-3-02 43 1 people that are signed up to have their opportunity to -- to 2 give us their opinions and comments on this issue. The next 3 individual that signed up to speak is Gene Thacker. 4 MR. THACKER: Good evening. My name is Gene 5 Thacker. I live on Keith Boulevard in Turtle Creek Estates. 6 Most of what I thought and think has been expressed here 7 this evening. I moved out there because I want to be out 8 there. It wasn't by mistake. But -- excuse me -- I've 9 tried to understand this, and I have some questions about 10 the numbers. Can I address them? 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, you may, sir. 12 MR. THACKER: Okay. If this sheet -- this is 13 the profile of Turtle Creek Ranches. Does this mean that 14 you only found 74 units? 15 AUDIENCE: Gene, what page is that? 16 MR. THACKER: It's the Profile 10. 17 AUDIENCE: Ten. 18 MR. THACKER: Turtle Creek. 19 MR. HARTZELL: Yeah. What this means -- 20 okay. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Eric, would you gentlemen 22 walk back to the podium so everyone can hear, please? 23 MR. HARTZELL: Okay. Hang on one sec; I'm 24 sorry. What Mr. Thacker is asking me is on the -- about 25 halfway down on the first page of the Profile 10, there's a 6-3-02 44 1 housing section, and it says number of units, 74. He's 2 asking me if that's the number of units we found. That's 3 the number of units that we found in the -- what -- when we 4 do a large subdivision like Turtle Creek, we don't only do 5 the areas where there are units close together in some 6 semblance or form. We drove clear out all the roads; they 7 go out for miles and miles, as you all know, up and down the 8 hills. And we didn't go beyond -- there's a street that 9 goes east and west. 10 MR. THACKER: Yes. 11 MR. HARTZELL: We didn't go past that street. 12 So these houses, I think, represent the houses south of that 13 point. 14 MR. THACKER: Okay. My next question, then, 15 out of these 74 units in this 1,525-acre subdivision, 74 16 units, you found 39 that needed rehabilitation or 17 reconstruction. If I read this right, it shows that the 18 average improvement out there is $15,300. Is that correct? 19 Average property valuation? 20 MR. HARTZELL: This looks low. Hang on one 21 second; I've got my data right here. Hang on, I'm sorry. 22 MR. THACKER: Now, I'm not trying to be 23 difficult, but if the average price is -- or value of the 24 improvement is $15,000 -- 25 MR. HARTZELL: Okay, that's -- 6-3-02 45 1 MR. THACKER: You've got 39 -- 2 MR. HARTZELL: That probably is incorrect. 3 We have -- that is incorrect. 4 (Laughter.) 5 MR. HARTZELL: Everyone makes -- it should be 6 $31,999 average value. 7 MR. THACKER: Okay. 8 MR. HARTZELL: Does that make more sense? 9 MR. THACKER: Makes a little more sense, 10 because you're going to spend just right at $900,000 on 39 11 homes, and by the time you improve them, they'd be more -- 12 worth more than what they are today. 13 MR. HARTZELL: Yeah. When they -- a lot of 14 times this is referring to replacing a mobile home with a 15 stick-built house, which is the way -- 16 MR. THACKER: Why? 17 MR. HARTZELL: -- the programs work. Federal 18 programs for housing require that when you replace a 19 low-income person's house -- that's a mobile home -- 20 MR. THACKER: Uh-huh. 21 MR. HARTZELL: -- you put in a stick-built 22 house, or you can put in a manufactured home. 23 MR. THACKER: Okay. Because I'm going to 24 say, in today's environment, one out of every four new homes 25 built today is a manufactured home. 6-3-02 46 1 MR. HARTZELL: That's correct, yes. That's 2 why -- 3 MR. THACKER: Whether there's enough lumber 4 in it or not. 5 MR. HARTZELL: H.U.D. tends -- actually, the 6 State tends to prefer stick-built, but we do manufactured 7 homes as well, because that is exactly right; one out of 8 four -- and that is an incorrect figure. I apologize. 9 MR. THACKER: Well, there's others throughout 10 here. I mean -- 11 MR. HARTZELL: Okay. 12 MR. THACKER: -- you say you drove down and 13 you saw 74 homes. 14 MR. HARTZELL: That's right. 15 MR. THACKER: Okay. Six, seven years ago, my 16 wife and I started counting mailboxes. We live on Keith 17 Boulevard. By the time we got to our house, this -- just 18 the most direct route, we counted 90 mailboxes, and that's 19 about four or five years ago. I have a problem with the 20 math. 21 MR. HARTZELL: Okay. 22 MR. THACKER: Not only with the concept, with 23 the math. 24 MR. HARTZELL: We have maps. And -- would 25 you like me to pull it out? Maybe we can do this later, 6-3-02 47 1 because I think we're taking up time. 2 MR. THACKER: I'm taking up time. I don't 3 want to be redundant. I feel like a lot of those folks out 4 here. I'm not sure which president it was that said, "He 5 who governs least governs best." Stay out of my back yard; 6 that's what I feel about government. And I'm glad you 7 showed that, 'cause I was really concerned. 8 MR. HARTZELL: Yeah, I've got -- that's a 9 typographical error. I think you have Hill River as number 10 -- actually, it looks like -- 11 (Several people in the audience talking at once.) 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 MR. THACKER: Thanks. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, sir. Paul Werner. 15 MR. WERNER: This project sneaked up on me. 16 I learned about it yesterday. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Excuse me, sir. We need your 18 name and subdivision, if you would, please. 19 MR. WERNER: Say again? 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: We need your name and 21 subdivision. 22 MR. WERNER: Oh, I'm sorry. My name is Paul 23 Werner. I live at 110 Turtle Creek View. And the project 24 did sneak up on me, and so I have insufficient knowledge to 25 make too many comments, but I -- to me, at least, with the 6-3-02 48 1 County of Kerr having no colonias, starting up one -- or 2 several now that don't seem to quite reach the criterion, I 3 think perhaps that limited some of the federal and state 4 cash, which they don't really have. We'd be better off 5 taking care of the people down in Webb and Hidalgo and El 6 Paso Counties, where they really need such improvements. 7 And it was pointed out that -- forcefully, as a matter of 8 fact, that nobody had to sign up for this south -- south 9 Kerrville sewer project. But President Reagan once said 10 that once you get in bed with government, you can expect 11 more than a good night's sleep. 12 (Laughter and applause.) 13 MR. WERNER: Everyone here knows that's a 14 fact. What happens if the U.G.R.A. comes by in the next two 15 or three years and they say, "Well, we've just increased our 16 criteria for sewer systems. Yours don't qualify, so you 17 sign up or else." Now, I know that's going to happen, and 18 so does everyone else here. And there's a lot of questions 19 that I have that I know you can't answer, like the sales 20 process for all these lots that are going to be vacant, and 21 how the people who buy them are going to be treated by their 22 sellers and everyone else. But I -- that's not a thing I 23 can address now. I just know a great many things from 15 24 years of subdivision regulation. Thank you, gentlemen. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you, sir. 6-3-02 49 1 (Applause.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Kathy Schneider. 3 MS. SCHNEIDER: My name is Kathy Schneider, 4 and I live on Fawn Run, which is outside the city limits of 5 Kerrville. There's not much else I can say that I wouldn't 6 be reiterating, except that I am pleased that we've been 7 upgraded to P.E.A. However, I would prefer to be completely 8 off the list. We only bought our house 15 months ago. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Which was your subdivision, 10 ma'am? 11 MS. SCHNEIDER: It's Fawn Run. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Fawn Run, okay. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Off Ranchero Road. 14 MS. SCHNEIDER: We don't -- you know, we had 15 to go through all of the appraisals and things like -- 16 things like that for a V.A. loan, you know, and they're 17 strict on all those things. The only -- the only question 18 that I have is, if -- if you're going to give people septic 19 systems or -- or sewage systems, because they have septic 20 systems, why don't you go out and request -- okay, you know, 21 "We want to know who wants this," before saying, you know, 22 "We're going to do this, and you don't have to participate." 23 Why didn't you ask them how many people want it before you 24 actually, you know, do this and pay money for a survey? 25 It's not fair to us to be listed as a colonia, or even if 6-3-02 50 1 we're upgraded, so you can get money for another area of 2 town. We're not even on your list, and we're never on your 3 list to be included for money for our area to be improved. 4 You know, I'm more than happy to open my back 5 yard, let you come in with your pole and check my -- you 6 know, put it down in my system and see, you know, that it's 7 been pumped. And several in the neighborhood, you know, 8 they keep them maintained, and I'm sure that everybody else 9 does as well. But, you know, that's why I want to know, why 10 -- why didn't you come out -- my husband works for the City 11 of Kerrville. Now, without my income, yeah, we'd meet that 12 criteria of being low income, because the City doesn't pay 13 that much, believe me. 14 (Laughter.) 15 MS. SCHNEIDER: You know, and there's no 16 differential pay at night, and he does work at night. But 17 just, you know, keep that in mind. If you want to do 18 something like this, please ask people if we're interested 19 in doing this. "Would you be interested in us coming out 20 and doing this?" To be honest with you, I honestly 21 prefer -- even though I live out there, the roads that I -- 22 I drive on to go home are much better than what right's here 23 in the city, right on Sidney Biker. I think the money would 24 be well-spent improving Sidney Baker and other areas of 25 town, rather than, you know, asking for money to do 6-3-02 51 1 something that people don't want. You know, so to please 2 everybody, I think, you know, just kind of put out a little 3 survey and say, Who wants this? Do you want this? Would 4 you be interested in this? Or would you, you know, prefer 5 that we improve some of the city streets around here? 6 And there -- there are places in town, I do 7 agree, you know, they don't look all that -- you know, look 8 all that good, but people try. And not everybody makes the 9 most money, but people do try to keep their property in very 10 good condition. And what we need to do is just find out, 11 what -- what do people actually want before we go out and 12 say, This is what we're going to do. You don't have to 13 participate in it, but this is, you know, what we would like 14 to do. Would you like for to us do this for you? And I 15 think you'd find a lot more people would rather you improve 16 the streets in town so they can get to work, you know, a 17 decent way than do something like that. But I won't spend 18 much more time, because everybody has said pretty much 19 everything. There's nothing that Mr. Cosby has -- hasn't 20 said that wouldn't cover everything I wanted to say. But we 21 do appreciate you taking the time to let us talk to you, and 22 -- and let you know how we feel about it. But it just -- 23 you know, as a -- as a person, I honestly prefer you take us 24 completely off the list. 25 MR. HARTZELL: It's off. Already off. 6-3-02 52 1 MS. SCHNEIDER: Well, not listed. 2 MR. HARTZELL: You're off. You're already 3 off. You're off already. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 5 (Applause.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Rhonda Mitchell. 7 MS. MITCHELL: Hello. My name is Rhonda 8 Mitchell, and I also live on Fawn Run. I have pictures of 9 all the houses in our subdivision here -- well, until I ran 10 out of film; there's about three that aren't on there. 11 (Photos handed to Commissioner Baldwin.) 12 MS. MITCHELL: According to the criteria that 13 I've seen, we meet one, the density. I just saw this area 14 profile, and they're talking that two units on our street 15 need rehabilitation. One of them we know does, but it's not 16 on our street; it's on Wharton Road. We've all offered to 17 help this lady. We've offered to mow her grass. We've 18 offered to help her fix her roof. We've offered to help her 19 do vinyl siding. She doesn't want our help. You can't help 20 people that don't want your help. And we've offered -- Ed 21 Maldonado offered to even have her -- somebody mow her grass 22 every week. You can't help people that don't want your 23 help. So, you know, I -- I don't know what else to say. I 24 don't want to be on the list. It lowers my property value. 25 Maybe not in your eyes, but in a buyer's eyes it does lower 6-3-02 53 1 my property value. I haven't spent money fixing up my 2 house, landscaping my back yard and everything else, for you 3 to lower my property value by establishing me as a colonia 4 or a potential colonia. Again, the only criteria we meet is 5 the density. But you also say we have several undeveloped 6 lots. Those lots are owned by property owners that own 7 houses right next to the lots. The only reason the vacant 8 lot next to me is not owned by me is because the gentleman 9 that owns it and I cannot come to an agreement. I want to 10 buy that lot, he wants to sell it, but we can't come to a 11 price agreement. So, I'm just asking you to take our 12 neighborhood off the list. We would appreciate it very 13 much. Thank you. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Here are your pictures 16 back. 17 MS. MITCHELL: You can keep them for the 18 record. I've got copies. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Robert and Christine Allard. 20 MR. ALLARD: Everyone's basically said 21 everything time and time again. My thing is -- 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sir, we need your name and 23 address, please. 24 MR. ALLARD: Robert Allard, 118 Turtle Creek 25 View. 6-3-02 54 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 2 MR. ALLARD: My thing is, about three years 3 ago, I was made to go down to U.G.R.A., develop paperwork 4 just so that I could get a septic system. How did they not 5 know that everybody had a septic system? They've got 6 everything sitting there, right there in front of them. 7 Were they not given the right information? Why are they 8 having to go out and look to see, well, do they have a 9 septic system? They're not going out to check them. Also, 10 if I decide not to get on this plan -- he says it's free. 11 My neighbor that decides to get on it, am I going to have to 12 pay his through my tax money? 'Cause my taxes are going to 13 go up, I guarantee you that. They're going to say, okay, 14 this plan -- we don't have enough funding to keep it going. 15 Let's go ahead and we'll just raise everybody's taxes across 16 the board. So, eventually, I am going to be paying for them 17 to be hooked up to the plan. Am I incorrect? Thank you. 18 (Applause.) 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Patricia Crisman. 20 MS. CRISMAN: I'd rather not speak at this 21 time. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's fine, Ms. Crisman. 23 Thank you for your interest. That's the list of people who 24 signed up to speak. Is there anyone who did not sign up 25 who'd like to come forward and speak? Once again, is there 6-3-02 55 1 anyone who did not sign -- yes, sir, come on up. How are 2 you tonight? 3 MR. DELGADILLO: I'm not sure if I filled out 4 a blank. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thanks a lot. 6 MR. DELGADILLO: My name is Larry Delgadillo. 7 I live at 1775 Upper Turtle Creek; I've lived out there 20 8 years. I'm also a Kerrville native. And what I want to 9 address is the title of colonia. When I left Kerrville, I 10 went to school in west Texas and saw what was there. Then I 11 transferred down to south Texas, down to Edinburg, that 12 area, and my primary job was to assess kids in colonias, so 13 I definitely know what a colonia is. And, to tell you the 14 truth, in Molina Road or Turtle Creek, there is hardly any 15 house that would meet the criteria that I saw down in south 16 Texas, where there was cardboard -- they don't have septic 17 tanks out there, they don't have water at all. And I had to 18 go in those houses and assess kids. And out here in Turtle 19 Creek, we do not have anything that comes close to that. 20 You may see junk cars, but a lot of times they use that for 21 hunting; sit in there and hunt out of them or something like 22 that. But, anyway, I just want to say that I would like 23 Turtle Creek to be removed from consideration as a colonia, 24 okay? Thank you. 25 (Applause.) 6-3-02 56 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Is there anyone 2 else who's not had a chance to speak and would like to come 3 forward and address the Court? Anyone else who'd like to 4 come forward and address the Court? Sir? 5 MR. MENTCH: My name is Bill Mentch, and I 6 live at 1550 Upper Turtle Creek. And I take it as a 7 privilege to be able to be here tonight. I wasn't able to 8 be here last week; I had more important business, and that 9 was with my church. Yes, Robert, you are right; you will 10 have to pay for your neighbors. And our -- one thing I'd 11 like to ask, are you gentlemen not allowed to answer a 12 question? Because Robert asked several questions, and you 13 didn't even answer. 14 (Laughter.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: The questions asked really 16 weren't for us to answer, as I recall. 17 MR. MENTCH: I'm just about like everybody 18 else. There's been a lot said here this evening, and I 19 don't agree with any of it. I've been out there for 30 20 years, and I've been just fine. I've raised my family out 21 there, and I went to the little church out there for 20 22 years on Molina Road, and I don't like anybody calling my 23 church a rundown building. I do appreciate everything the 24 gentleman right over there said that lives here in 25 Kerrville, and I believe that there's already been a lot of 6-3-02 57 1 damage done as far as labeling our area a colonia. And I 2 don't care what the definition of H.U.D. is of a colonia, 3 because when you speak to the public about a colonia, well, 4 everybody here has already given you their definition of 5 what a colonia is. So, one other thing that I would like to 6 bring out is this windshield inspection thing. I don't like 7 to be labeled a colonia, and I don't like for my home to be 8 inspected and called something just by somebody driving by 9 and looking at it. There are people that pay thousands of 10 dollars for barn wood furniture, and just because somebody's 11 home is made out of barn wood, or made out of something that 12 they like, doesn't mean that it's run down. I may have a 13 rock house, somebody else may have a brick house, somebody 14 else may live in a mobile home or a stick house, but it's 15 what they want. That doesn't label a person a poor person. 16 It doesn't say what they bring home every month. And I'd 17 just say that I don't like the idea of somebody just driving 18 up Molina Road or Turtle Creek Road or Keith Boulevard or 19 Dingly View, or any of the other roads out there, and 20 labeling our area a colonia. Thank you very much. 21 (Applause.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. Once again, is 23 there anyone else who'd like to speak? Yes, sir? 24 MR. SMITH: My name is Travis Smith. I live 25 at 115 Turtle Creek View. I've been out there a little less 6-3-02 58 1 than two months. Within three days -- I live in a 2 manufactured home that's less than three years old. Within 3 two days after the underpinning was up, the only thing you 4 see of my home is the very end as you turn the corner. How 5 could anybody judge my home from that view? I want for -- 6 for us to be removed from that list. There's nothing wrong 7 with that property. We just invested $9,000 in a septic, 8 not counting the connect fees, not counting what we paid to 9 U.G.R.A. for the approval. There's septic, there's 10 approval. What more can you ask? Thank you. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 12 (Applause.) 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone else? Anyone else 14 who'd like to address the Commissioners Court? 15 AUDIENCE: May I ask, is Molina Road being 16 taken off, or is it being left on? 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: We're not in a position to 18 take any action tonight, ma'am, but I would suggest that 19 there's probably a developing, if not fully developed, 20 consensus that Turtle Creek Estates doesn't belong on the 21 list. 22 (Applause.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, ma'am? 24 MS. MITCHELL: I have a question. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Identify yourself. 6-3-02 59 1 MS. MITCHELL: My name is Rhonda Mitchell, 2 and I live on Fawn Run. When are y'all going to make the -- 3 the decision of who stays on and who stays off? Because we 4 would all like to know when y'all are going to vote on that 5 and whether we're going to be able to be present so we'll 6 know who to vote for in the next election. 7 (Applause.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't know exactly when 9 we'll do that. It won't -- 10 MS. MITCHELL: Will it be in the paper ahead 11 of time so everybody will know? 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: It will be certainly in the 13 -- on our listed agenda, and one of the things I want to 14 address when we're done here is how we can better 15 communicate on this issue. 16 MS. MITCHELL: Thank you. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't know exactly, but it 18 will be probably within the next six weeks. 19 MS. MITCHELL: Thank you. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Anyone else who'd like to 21 address the Court? Yes, sir? 22 MR. SLY: My name is Ed Sly, and I live at 23 112 Molina. And I'm wondering, out of all of this, if you 24 gentlemen are really looking at what might happen to real 25 estate values in these areas you're looking at. You know, 6-3-02 60 1 if we're going to continue to be marked as a downtrodden 2 neighborhood or whatever, some of us, if we can do it, will 3 move. Real estate values probably will go down, and I 4 really wonder if you passed this by the real estate board. 5 But real estate values in these areas you're looking at -- 6 and you're going -- if -- if you're going to continue to 7 mark us as you're doing, you can bring in some pretty poor 8 people. You can bring in a number of people, quite a big 9 number, maybe, over some time, that won't have the 10 background and the fortitude and a real work ethic, and care 11 for their home as some of we people have today in these 12 areas, and I just wonder if you've been looking at that. 13 I know we're after money; I think we all 14 realize that. And I commend you gentlemen, I guess, for 15 trying to secure this money the way you are, but I really 16 wonder if you've been looking at every facet of this. And 17 Helen and I moved down here 20 years ago -- or about 18 18 years ago now, from Michigan, and I retired here. And it's 19 been a beautiful second home. Michigan is still our home, 20 but Texas has become a great home for us. And I'll tell 21 you, gentlemen, I haven't slept too well this past week. 22 I've been up and down quite a bit most every night. And I 23 don't know why this has come upon us, and I think all of we 24 neighbors look at this about that way. Why are we having 25 this, if we can put it crudely, shoved down our throat? And 6-3-02 61 1 all the garbage, if I can use that term again -- or that 2 term, that goes with it. I -- I don't have the same feeling 3 about Kerrville. I don't have the same feeling about Kerr 4 County. I don't have the same feeling about Molina Road. 5 I'll be frank with you, as I was a month ago. Gentlemen, 6 it's a downer. It's a downer. And Helen and I are not 7 destitute; we could get a few bucks out of where we live and 8 we could go on somewhere else, but we've learned to love 9 this area. And I tell you, man, you're putting a real onus 10 on it. It isn't like it was a month or two ago. And I 11 appreciate your efforts. I know you have certain things 12 that you have to try to accomplish for the county, and I'm 13 sure you're not in this work just because you love it. 14 You're in it because you want to make a little name for 15 yourself, and there's nothing wrong in that. We're all 16 human that way. 17 (Laughter.) 18 MR. SLY: But I suggest you take a long look 19 at what you're trying to do. It's not good. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 21 (Applause.) 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fred, I have comments. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Why don't we see if we're 24 finished first, Buster? Anyone else who'd like to address 25 the Court on this issue? Is there any other member of the 6-3-02 62 1 public who'd like to address the Commissioners Court during 2 this public hearing on this issue of the draft Colonia 2000 3 Plan and Study? If not, do any of the Commissioners have 4 any comments? I know Commissioner Baldwin does. 5 Commissioner Baldwin? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, sir. I'm 7 not going to even attempt to debate the merits of the 8 program. It's probably a good program. I don't have any 9 idea, but I do have some comments to make about the function 10 of government and the way government runs and the way we 11 run. I've always looked at things -- there's a -- there's a 12 proper way to do business and there's an improper way to do 13 business. And when people have feelings that -- to quote 14 Mr. Sly, that government is being run down their throat, 15 that is a -- that's not an orderly way for government to 16 run, so I feel badly about that. I know you folks feel like 17 that -- that we're driving government down your throat. You 18 feel like that we're a runaway train, we're moving forward. 19 I also feel like the project that is underway on Ranchero 20 Road is extremely needed, and I'm big time in favor of 21 pursuing that project to its very end. If you're -- if 22 you're familiar with that area at all, you'll understand 23 what I'm talking about. We need to finish that project, and 24 I'm in favor of that. It's my view that everything outside 25 of that particular project needs to be put on hold; that 6-3-02 63 1 until everyone -- the public -- gets on board the train with 2 us, and everyone is working side-by-side to accomplish 3 fixing some of the problems out in the county. So, with 4 that, I'm going to officially request that we delete Turtle 5 Creek Estates from the list. 6 (Applause.) 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. I don't 8 know that that requires a vote, but if it does, we'll -- 9 we'll address that at that time. Thank you very much. 10 Mr. Sly, get some sleep. 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Williams? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just a couple 13 comments, Judge. The process began when we learned that we 14 had the opportunity to obtain grant moneys to map the 15 infrastructure needs of Kerr County. That came along after 16 we'd already received grant money to do the Kerrville South 17 project, which I agree with Commissioner Baldwin, it is an 18 excellent project. There's been a lot of things said 19 tonight because emotions generally run high in meetings of 20 this nature. Some are true. Some are exaggerations, and 21 some are misrepresentations of fact, but we're not going to 22 try to sort those things out now. Everybody's had an 23 opportunity to express themselves. Having received the 24 grants which get the Kerrville South project, Phase I, 25 underway, the dollars are for engineering and construction, 6-3-02 64 1 and to assist low- and moderate-income folks in hooking up 2 to sewer if they determine that that's in their best 3 interests to do so. The only incentive about that is that 4 if you receive those dollars -- if you reject those dollars 5 for -- for hooking up when they're offered, and you -- and 6 you don't want to do that for whatever reasons -- you may 7 have put in a new septic tank. Who knows what your reasons 8 might be? There's a small window of opportunity, and you 9 lose that opportunity. That's the way the grant, I believe, 10 is written. 11 When we had the opportunity to receive the 12 grant moneys for infrastructure mapping, we determined that 13 that was a good idea, because, contrary to popular belief -- 14 and I'm sure that everyone here tonight represents their 15 true feelings, and they represent themselves to know what 16 they believe to be the situation in their neighborhood. But 17 my good friend Arthur, who -- he and I discuss things every 18 now and then, and I dearly respect and love the man. I -- 19 I'd make an offer to you, Arthur. I can take you to some 20 areas in Kerr County in Precinct 2, and I can show you open 21 cesspools. Cesspools. They're there. Believe us, they're 22 there. And our purpose is only to identify areas of need. 23 Just because they have been identified doesn't mean they're 24 going to become projects. They may or they may not become 25 projects at some date in the future. 6-3-02 65 1 The purpose of the plan of having identified 2 them -- and I'm sure the Grantworks folks tonight took 3 copious notes and will make adjustments to their plan based 4 on what they've heard, from what you've said, what the sense 5 of this audience is. Once that's done, then the plan comes 6 back to Commissioners Court for its review. It has to go to 7 the State for its review, and then it is either adopted or 8 it's not adopted. It hasn't been adopted. It's not 9 official. It's a work in progress, and that's exactly what 10 it is. And even if it is adopted, what it does is sets a 11 tentative agenda, if you will -- not hidden, mind you, but 12 very public -- of needs that could be looked at for grant 13 purposes only down the line, ten years out. We may or we 14 may not do them. We may or may not ask for grant moneys. 15 Grant moneys may or may not be available. The strings on 16 the grant moneys may be more than we choose to handle. But 17 that's what the process is all about. So, nothing here 18 tonight -- nothing in this plan says that tomorrow morning 19 there's going to be backhoes out there digging trenches and 20 laying sewer lines in your neighborhood that you don't want. 21 Thank you. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Letz? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just have a couple of 24 comments. First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for 25 coming and expressing your views. As one of the members of 6-3-02 66 1 the Court sitting up here, it's not particularly fun to hear 2 it all the time, but we do appreciate it. That is how we 3 learn what you -- how you feel and what you think. And I 4 think it's very clear, at least from my standpoint, that the 5 three subdivisions that are basically discussed here 6 tonight, Silver Creek Estates, Fawn Run, and Turtle Creek 7 Ranches, shouldn't be on the list, and I think the Court 8 probably made a mistake -- or did make a mistake by 9 casting -- I think Eric termed it a "broad net." And I 10 think it's probably because we didn't think through it 11 completely, what the term "colonia" would mean to the 12 residents of some of these subdivisions. That was our 13 mistake, enormously. But, as Commissioner Williams says, 14 there are areas in this county that do need -- and I don't 15 know if they qualify as a colonia or if you want to call 16 them colonia or not, but there's areas that certainly -- 17 there are needs that need to be met. And this program, 18 through the colonia funding, is a way to meet these needs, 19 in a -- the most economical way for the County and the 20 county's residents. 21 What concerns me a little bit -- and I don't 22 know, you know, if the rest of the residents of the county 23 don't know about being on the list or don't mind being on 24 the list, but I think Commissioner Baldwin's idea of putting 25 everything on hold for a little bit, slowing down a little 6-3-02 67 1 bit so that we can check with people in these other 2 subdivisions -- there's another -- I think eight other ones. 3 MR. HARTZELL: There are ten. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ten other ones. And to 5 make sure those people understand what's there, again. But 6 I don't think -- I don't think anyone on this Court wants 7 to -- I'll use the term -- "cram" something down anyone's 8 throat. If the residents don't want it, I don't want to 9 vote for it. But I do believe that there are areas of the 10 county that do need help, and there is a way to do it. And 11 they may be willing to take the stigma of being a colonia. 12 And I think, in some areas, it will help property values to 13 get the cesspools and the other problems and the sewage -- 14 or failing sewage systems corrected. But, to sum it up, I 15 appreciate y'all coming. I think the Court has heard what 16 y'all had to say. 17 MS. HURAYT: Why doesn't the Department of 18 Health get -- 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Stand up and identify 20 yourself, please. 21 MS. HURAYT: My name is Virginia Hurayt. And 22 I was just wondering, like, these places with cesspools and 23 all that, why don't you get the Department of Health 24 involved in that? Because that should take care of it. 25 They do in other states. 6-3-02 68 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We try. We don't have 2 the Department of Health in the county. We do get -- we 3 have tried to get T.N.R.C.C. and some other regulatory 4 agencies involved. There are state laws regarding failing 5 septic systems. We try to get those enforced, but it is 6 difficult sometimes, but we are trying to address some of 7 those areas through legal avenues. 8 MS. HURAYT: Because they do that in other 9 states. If there's any kind of violation around the house, 10 or a potential illness, like, from these cesspools and that, 11 they get involved and they -- they do something about that. 12 Obviously, here the Department of Health doesn't do 13 anything. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The County has very 15 limited authority in that area overall. We rely on the 16 state agencies. I guess T.N.R.C.C. probably has most of the 17 authority there. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes, sir? 19 MR. MAGILL: William Magill. I would just 20 like to suggest that we get U.G.R.A. out of the loop. 21 That's what bothers me the most. We don't have -- they're 22 not an elected body. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: The reason U.G.R.A. is 24 involved in the Kerrville South project is two reasons. 25 One, they were willing to put up the $75,000 match for the 6-3-02 69 1 grants. And, secondly, in order for the City of Kerrville 2 to process the wastewater, since Kerrville South is outside 3 of the city of Kerrville limits, there had to be another 4 government entity to have a contract with the City of 5 Kerrville in order to -- for the City of Kerrville to take 6 the waste. U.G.R.A. wanted to do it. The County doesn't 7 have a utility department. We don't have the people to do 8 the billing; we don't have the people to do the -- the 9 collections. U.G.R.A. was willing to do it. It seems to be 10 part of their mission, as the protectors of the river, and 11 in the city -- in Kerr County, if you will. Many of you may 12 not know that Third Creek, which runs through -- no, Camp 13 Meeting Creek. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Camp Meeting Creek. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Camp Meeting Creek, which 16 runs through the area of Kerrville South that we're working 17 on now, has been declared by the T.N.R.C.C. as not meeting 18 the requirements of the Texas Clean Waters Act, so we have a 19 lot of work to do in that area. To us, rather than create 20 another county department and bureaucracy, this was a 21 cheaper and simpler way to address this issue. And, you 22 know, it remains to be seen how it works out, but right now, 23 the proper -- the project in Kerrville South is moving 24 forward. It's moving forward as quickly as we can, and the 25 response that we've gotten from the residents in the target 6-3-02 70 1 area has been very good. Many people who are not in the 2 target area, who -- or who are in the target area, yeah, 3 that do not meet the income requirements have come and said, 4 "Can we be part of the project as well?" And we're 5 attempting to find a mechanism whereby we can do that. 6 Someone earlier mentioned eminent domain for easements. In 7 the Kerrville South project, we have not had to condemn any 8 property for easements or lines. Any necessary property 9 that we needed has been donated, because the residents 10 realize the value of the project to their area. So, perhaps 11 that answers your question about U.G.R.A.; perhaps it 12 doesn't. You know, like the other Commissioners have said, 13 this is a work in progress, and we're working through it as 14 best we can, with everyone's interests in mind. Cynthia? 15 MS. HURAYT: Yeah. It was along those lines. 16 My name is Cynthia Hurayt, and I think a lot of the other 17 comments we've had throughout the evening has been the issue 18 of U.G.R.A., the fact that they are not accountable to the 19 taxpayers. So, I would just suggest that while y'all are 20 putting this on hold, take some time to sit back and 21 evaluate how the taxpayers feel about having a taxing 22 authority that's appointed at the helm of this once we get 23 through with the project. It just seems that maybe there's 24 something we can do to seek -- talk to our Legislature, see 25 that U.G.R.A. becomes an elected board, not appointed. I've 6-3-02 71 1 talked to my state legislator -- legislators, and they seem 2 pretty uninterested about this, so I'm hoping that maybe 3 y'all will either find someone else to take over this that 4 we can hold accountable for fees, assessments, or maybe you 5 can help us see that U.G.R.A. becomes an elected board. 6 Thank you. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. I want to address 8 real quickly the issue of communication. I mean, this -- 9 tonight is what county government should be about. We are 10 the closest to you. There is no staff here. You don't have 11 any staff members sitting up here answering questions. If 12 you have a complaint -- what's your number, Buster? 13 (Laughter.) 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 44. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: You reach us directly. We 16 are not insulated from you. One of the frustrations that 17 I've experienced in my three and a half years as County 18 Judge is the inability to engage a wide variety, wide 19 spectrum of the county on issues such as this. I go out and 20 talk to anybody. I mean, I see two guys standing down at 21 Water and Earl Garrett waiting for the stoplight, I'll run 22 down there and talk to them about something. I've had a TV 23 show for two years. We do the best we can to communicate, 24 but we can't talk to you all individually on each and every 25 issue. So I'm going to discount the allegations that 6-3-02 72 1 there's some hidden agenda or some Machiavellian reason why 2 this hasn't gotten to you earlier. It's just a problem of 3 communication. Any of you who want to get the agendas, let 4 us know; we'll mail a copy of every agenda to you. If you 5 have e-mail, we'll e-mail a copy of every agenda to you. 6 You know, they're posted twice here in the courthouse. 7 They're made available all over the city. If you all want 8 to form a no colonia committee or something like that and 9 appoint a liaison to communicate with us on this issue, we'd 10 love to have that. 11 AUDIENCE: Who do you give your -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: 'Cause we've got -- 13 AUDIENCE: Who do you give your e-mail 14 address to? 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's in the paper. It's on 16 our letterhead. I'll give mine to you right now, if you 17 want it. It's -- 18 AUDIENCE: No, I'm talking about ours. You 19 said you would e-mail us. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: You can call us and give it 21 to us. Our court coordinator's here in the front row, 22 Ms. Sovil. If you want to give it to her tonight, we'd be 23 happy to have it. The issue of communication is -- is a 24 difficult one, and I could speak for the whole Court, I 25 believe. We'd love to have this kind of participation on 6-3-02 73 1 every issue. It would make our meetings kind of long, but, 2 hey, we get paid by the day anyway, you know. We're not 3 hourly; we're not wage earners. So, you know, we're here 4 for the duration. So, I'd like to ask you all to help us by 5 communicating with us, by being aware of what's going on. 6 We'll do our best. We'll continue to do our best to get the 7 word out to you. But we're not trying to hide anything. 8 There's no reason for to us hide anything. We want your 9 input. The input that you give to us at the beginning is a 10 lot better than the input that we get at the end, but we'd 11 rather have the input regardless, 'cause we need you. We 12 can't do it alone. So, as we wrap up tonight, I'd like to 13 ask y'all to think about how we can better communicate with 14 you, and also how you all can better stay in touch with what 15 we're doing, because we're doing your business. We're not 16 up here doing our business. None of us have our own -- our 17 own agendas, our own promotion in mind. We want to do 18 what's best for you and for all your neighbors and for all 19 the people of Kerr County, and we do our dead level best to 20 do that. Yes, ma'am? 21 MS. SMITH: My name is Cynthia Smith, and I'd 22 like to sleep well tonight. All my precious neighbors are 23 here from Four Seasons. Will you please take us off the 24 list? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which one? 6-3-02 74 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Four Seasons? 2 MS. SMITH: Mm-hmm. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll take that under 4 advisement. Like I said, we are not posted to take any 5 votes tonight, but we are certainly listening to what people 6 have to say. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Eric, where's Four 8 Seasons? 9 MR. HARTZELL: I believe it's just past Wood 10 Creek, but it's off -- it's off Turtle Creek Road. Is that 11 right? Off to the right? 12 MR. ALLARD: Between this couple, this 13 couple, and us, we own probably 25 percent of the whole Four 14 Seasons, so we'd kind of like to be taken off of it. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, if y'all are on the 16 list, we'll certainly take another look at it. That's what 17 we're here for, but we're not here to stay all night. So, 18 unless there's anything else that anyone has, we're 19 adjourned, and thank y'all for coming. We appreciate it. 20 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 8:35 p.m.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 23 24 25 6-3-02 75 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 7th day of June, 2002. 8 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-3-02