1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, June 10, 2002 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 PRESENT: FREDERICK L. HENNEKE, Kerr County Judge 23 H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 24 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 ABSENT: LARRY GRIFFIN, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X June 10, 2002 2 PAGE 3 --- Commissioners Comments 4 4 1.1 Pay Bills 7 1.2 Budget Amendments 8 5 1.3 Late Bills 18 1.4 Read and Approve Minutes 24 6 1.5 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 25 7 2.7 Set workshop to discuss Sheriff's Department Long-Range Plan for June 17, 2002, from 1-4 p.m. 26 8 2.1 Approve TexDOT Airport Project Participation 9 Agreement for engineering services for Capital Improvement Project at airport, authorize County 10 Judge to sign 29 11 2.2 Discuss allowing Kerr County Market Association to hold a farmers market on Courthouse Square 36 12 2.3 PUBLIC HEARING - Closing, abandoning & vacating 13 a portion of Larry Lane in Precinct 1 59 14 2.4 Discuss closing, abandoning & vacating a portion of Larry Lane in Precinct 1 60 15 2.5 Appeal to Commissioners Court regarding OSSF real 16 property transfer 61 17 2.6 Discuss adopting revised Kerr County Subdivision Rules & Regulations 84 18 2.7 Set date for joint budget meeting with Kerrville 19 City Council 96 20 2.8 Adopt FY 02/03 budget workshop schedule 98 21 --- Adjourned 100 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 9:00 a.m., a regular meeting of 2 the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's 9 o'clock in the morning 7 on Monday, July 10th, (sic) Year 2002. We'll call to order 8 this regular meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. 9 Commissioner Baldwin, I believe you have the honors this 10 morning. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do, sir, and I have 12 a special guest with us today. He's the Associate Pastor of 13 the First Baptist Church of Kerrville, Robert Turner. 14 Robert, if you'd come and pray for the Commissioners Court, 15 and -- and then when you're through, we'll do the pledge of 16 allegiance. 17 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. Thank you, 19 Robert. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, any citizen 21 wishing to address the Court on an item not listed on the 22 regular agenda may come forward and do so. Is there any 23 citizen who would like to address the Court on an item not 24 listed on the regular agenda? Going once, going twice. Any 25 citizen wishing to address the Court on an item not listed 6-10-02 4 1 on the regular agenda? Hearing none, we'll go to the 2 Commissioners' comments. Commissioner Baldwin. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I only have 4 one item to bring today, and that is three Commissioners 5 ago, in this seat, my good friend Fred Holland will have a 6 90th birthday day after tomorrow, 90 years old. And he 7 still calls me and he still drives me totally insane, and I 8 still love him. I've been trying to get -- I called him 9 Uncle Fred for years, you know, trying to get in on the 10 inheritance, but I don't think it's going to happen. But 11 Fred's 90th birthday is next Wednesday. That's all I have. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Williams? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, speaking of 14 people who are 90 or in that range, this past weekend, one 15 of Kerr County's finest was recognized in Dallas by the 16 Texas Federation of Republican Women; that would be Betty 17 Strohacker, who I believe is middle -- in her '80's, for her 18 years of outstanding service as an excellent judge in Buster 19 Baldwin's precinct out there. And, bless her heart, she 20 managed to get her picture made with Senator Kay Bailey 21 Huchison; she got her picture made with Susan Combs, the 22 Agriculture Secretary, and who knows who else? But she had 23 a smile on her face that was just about as wide as you can 24 get, and she was really pleased at the honor that was 25 bestowed on her. 6-10-02 5 1 I had an item left over from last time, 2 because we -- early on in the meeting, we got a little 3 sidetracked and didn't get into things of this nature, but I 4 just wanted to pay a comment or two and a little bit of 5 praise to one of our fine young people from Center Point, 6 Lisa Diltz. And there was an article in the Kerrville Daily 7 Times on the 28th of May commending her. Out of more than 8 7,200 student athletes nationwide nominated from more than 9 20,000 high schools across America, Lisa was named second 10 team All-American in high school sports for her activities 11 and her leadership in Center Point High School. She'll be 12 off to college this year, and wherever that young lady goes, 13 she's going to do well. Thank you, Judge. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: You're welcome. Commissioner 15 Letz? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just have two very 17 brief comments, both regarding baseball. One, Tivy had a 18 great season. They did end up losing at the regional 19 finals, but had a great season; went as far -- as far as any 20 team's ever gone in Tivy baseball, defeated by their nemesis 21 Calallen one more time, which has happened many times in the 22 past. And also, I have a new nephew getting ready to be a 23 Texas Longhorn -- or another nephew. Congratulations to the 24 Texas Longhorns for going for a record 29th time to the 25 World Series in Omaha next week. 6-10-02 6 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fantastic. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can switch to my true 4 colors now; I had to be an Aggie for four years. 5 (Laughter.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: The problem is, they play 7 those Rice Owls first game in the World Series. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all right. No 9 problem. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Cougars are pretty 11 good. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I had no idea 13 we were going to talk about sports this morning. I do have 14 a sports comment, if you don't mind. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Fire away. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The Tivy Antlers -- 17 you know, in the summer they play 7-on-7 football, which is 18 a -- it's kind of a training ground for -- the quarterback 19 gets the ball and has four seconds to get rid of it, and so 20 the receivers have to run real crisp routes, and quarterback 21 has to read real -- it's a neat, neat league. And our local 22 group went to Southwest Texas in San Marcos Saturday, played 23 six straight hours of football, and out of 28 teams, they 24 got beat in the championship game. So, things are looking 25 pretty good around here; I'm excited. And my little boy was 6-10-02 7 1 there. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: And your little boy was 3 there. That is -- that's great. I want to extend the 4 Court's congratulations to Mr. Bill Slivka, who actually 5 lives in Commissioner Letz' precinct. Mr. Slivka has been 6 chosen by the Alamo Area Council of Governments as the 7 Regional Citizen of the Year outside of Bexar County. 8 Mr. Slivka serves as ombudsman for the Hilltop Nursing Home, 9 and he serves as ombudsman for several different nursing 10 homes in the area, and our congratulations to Mr. Slivka for 11 this well-deserved honor, and our thanks to him for this 12 service that he devotes to the citizens of Kerr County. 13 Also, I want to again extend our 14 congratulations to Connie Reeves. Connie, who's 101 years 15 old, is one of the charter members of the National Cowgirl 16 Hall of Fame, and this past weekend in Fort Worth, they 17 dedicated their new building, and Connie was actually up 18 there for the dedication. She had to hurry back, though, 19 because Waldemar has started, and she had classes to teach 20 for horse riding. She's been teaching horseback riding at 21 Waldemar for 67 years, and she's a wonderful person, and has 22 a hard time -- hard time walking, but you put her on a horse 23 and there's no difficulty there whatsoever. So, again, our 24 congratulations to Connie. If that's all we have this 25 morning, let's pay some bills, Mr. Auditor. Does anyone 6-10-02 8 1 have any questions or comments regarding the bills as 2 presented? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move we pay 4 the bills. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 7 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court approve 8 payment of the bills as presented and recommended by the 9 Auditor. Any questions or comments? If not, all in favor 10 raise your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Budget 15 amendments. Number 1 is for the District Clerk's Office. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. This amendment is to 17 transfer moneys in line items in her budget for purchase of 18 postage. We're adding $1,785 to the Postage line item, 19 $1,085 from Part-Time Salaries, $500 from Machine Repairs, 20 $200 from Miscellaneous, $383.36 from Office Supplies. 21 Part -- and out of -- the $383 actually moves to her 22 Microfilm Records. I have a bill attached -- a late bill 23 attached to this payable -- for $1,000. It's payable to 24 U.S. Postal Service. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 6-10-02 9 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 3 second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court approve 4 Budget Amendment Request Number 1 for District Court, and 5 authorize issuance of a hand check in the amount of $1,000 6 payable to the Kerrville Postmaster. Any questions or 7 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Amendment 12 Number 2 is for the County Court at Law. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: I have -- I have $1,740 in 14 attorney's fees for the County Court at Law. That line item 15 is depleted. We're requesting transfer of that amount from 16 Court-Appointed Attorneys line item in the County Court. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 20 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court approve 21 Budget Amendment Request Number 2 for the County Court at 22 Law. Any questions or comments? If not, all in favor, 23 raise your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 6-10-02 10 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 3 is 3 for Court Collections. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: This transfer is to Books, 5 Publications, and Dues for $39.44, and $200 to Office 6 Supplies, to come from line item Credit Reports for $239.44. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 10 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 11 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 3 for the Court 12 Collections Department. Any questions or comments? If not, 13 all in favor, raise your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Budget 18 Amendment Request Number 4 is from J.P. Number 1. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: This is a request from the 20 Judge to transfer $162.91 into Office Supplies, $72.54 from 21 Miscellaneous, and $90.37 from Telephone line item. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 25 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 6-10-02 11 1 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 4 for J.P. Number 1. 2 Any questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 3 right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Budget 8 Amendment Request Number 5 is for the 198th District Court. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: This line item transfer is -- 10 totals $8,288.81. That -- that amount we're requesting to 11 transfer from Court-Appointed Attorneys line item in 198th 12 District Court. $7,498.50 of that is to the Court-Appointed 13 Attorneys line item in the 216th court, $440 for 14 Court-Appointed Services also in the 216th court, and 15 $336.25 in Court Transcripts in the 216th court, $14.06 to 16 Books, Publications, and Dues for the 198th District Court. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy, we're 18 transferring $7,500 into the Court-Appointed Attorney, and I 19 don't know which -- is that 198th? 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, that's the 198th 21 court -- I'm sorry, that's the 216th. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 216th? I thought all 23 along, for the last few months, that we've been transferring 24 money all around into Court-Appointed Attorneys, have we 25 not? 6-10-02 12 1 MR. TOMLINSON: We have. But the -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Suddenly we have 8,000 3 bucks to transfer? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: The 198th court has -- has 5 sufficient funds in that line item. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: So we're transferring it from 8 one court to the other, just to try to make -- make the 9 year. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there a reason the 11 198th has sufficient moneys there? 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Apparently they just haven't 13 had the cases that -- that the 216th has this year. That 14 happens from year to year. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 18 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 19 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 5 for the 198th and 20 216th District Courts. Any other questions or comments? If 21 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Number 6 is 6-10-02 13 1 for the Law Library. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. This request is from 3 the Law Librarian to pay a bill for $1,233 for books for the 4 library. In order to do this, we need to increase the 5 budget by that amount, to come from the surplus funds in the 6 Library fund. There's no place -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What fund again? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: There's no place to transfer 9 those funds within the fund. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Fund number 18 is the 11 Library Surplus? 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, it is. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 16 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 17 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 6 for Law Library, 18 declare an emergency and transfer the funds from the Fund 18 19 surplus reserve fund balance for the Law Library. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: I might add that this fund is 21 totally funded by fees from the court. So -- 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 23 comments? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. Is that a -- 25 it seems early in the year to have a shortage in that fund. 6-10-02 14 1 And I also -- that's the first part of the question. 2 Usually these are pretty much regular when they come from -- 3 I mean, a couple of them, when it comes in. Also, I thought 4 we were going to get rid of a lot of the books when we went 5 to a computer system. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: That's a question for the 7 librarian. I -- I can't answer that, but I -- I have the 8 same question as you do. I thought also that -- that we'd 9 see a reduction in books once we had the -- the computers 10 that were available to -- to the public for research. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, thanks. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 13 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Amendment 18 Number 7 is for J.P. Number 3. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: This request is to fill a 20 vacancy for a part-time person for the -- the -- his clerk 21 that resigned. He's asking to transfer $500 from Office 22 Supplies, $500 from Equipment Maintenance into his Part-Time 23 Salary line item. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- I'll so move. No 25 problem with doing that, but I have a question. 6-10-02 15 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I also have a 4 question. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- Commissioner Letz, second 6 by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court approve Budget 7 Amendment Request Number 7. Any questions or comments? 8 Commissioner Letz? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why wouldn't the money 10 come out of salaries? I mean, it makes more sense to me to 11 take it out of salaries, 'cause -- 12 MR. TOMLINSON: I think -- I'm not sure about 13 this, but my guess is that there was vacation time that we 14 paid, and -- or comp time that we paid that used up -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Some of that? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: -- some of that. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm not sure that's what it 19 is, but I think that may be it. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Commissioner Baldwin? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was the same 22 question. And even after the answer, I'd ask -- have to ask 23 the question again, same question. I don't get it. 24 Whatever. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean, as long -- 6-10-02 16 1 until they find a full-time replacement, they're going to 2 use part-time, and I guess they had -- and I would think it 3 would come out of the salary line item in the future. 4 That's probably a better -- 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, the new salary will, 6 but I'm not sure -- I'm not sure what's -- what the 7 remaining balance is in the salary line item. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: I mean, I'm not -- I'd have 10 to research that. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, now, if the 12 present employee -- or the former employee took a vacation, 13 we wouldn't amend the budget to -- for her to have a 14 vacation. 15 MR. TOMLINSON: No. If she resigned and 16 hadn't taken her vacation, we'd have to pay her. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To me, that's the same 19 thing, though. A vacation is a vacation, if you take it 20 before you quit or after you quit. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ordinarily, the part-time 22 salary line item would have been used for that, but because 23 of the situation, we've used the part-time salary already, 24 and in the interim -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would never question 6-10-02 17 1 the County Auditor. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, I know that, you know, 3 vacation time and comp time is a real liability to the 4 County, of -- of -- for people that have vacation time 5 accrued that have not taken it. And if they haven't taken 6 it and they resign or -- or, you know, leave County 7 employment for any reason, you know, we pay them for that 8 time accrued. There's -- there's a substantial liability 9 county-wide for that. My -- my -- as I remember, when -- at 10 the end of the year, when we accrue those numbers, at 11 September the 30th of each year, it's approximately $60,000 12 to $80,000, county-wide. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Unused? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Unused. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Of course, another 16 approach to look at this thing right now is these other two 17 lines that the thousand dollars is coming out of will run 18 out. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: They might. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, they should, if 21 we're budgeting properly in the front end of the year. We 22 shouldn't have $500 laying around this time of the year 23 anyway. Did I second or amend -- 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: You seconded, yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 6-10-02 18 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 2 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Do you have 7 any late bills? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, I do. I have one from 9 Patricia Harris for $45.89. This -- this is to be paid from 10 a grant. It's the Hill Country Sex Offender Management 11 Project. It's for travel to -- to -- to the advisory team 12 from Austin for travel for that purpose. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 16 Williams, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 17 authorize a late bill and a hand check in the amount of 18 $45.89 payable to Patricia Harris. Any questions or 19 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. The next one is to 25 Texas Tech University. It's for $150. It's for 6-10-02 19 1 registration for the 107th Annual County/District Clerk's 2 Conference. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: And it's registration for? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: It's for Linda Uecker. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 8 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court 9 authorize a late bill and hand check in the amount of $150 10 payable to Texas Tech University for the registration for 11 Linda Uecker. Any other questions or comments? If not, all 12 in favor, raise your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. The next one is to the 18 Holiday Inn Park Plaza in Lubbock. It's for $189.84, and 19 it's lodging for the District Clerk for that conference. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 23 second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court approve a 24 late bill and authorize a hand check in the amount of 25 $189.84 payable to Holiday Inn Plaza -- Park Plaza for 6-10-02 20 1 lodging for attendance at the District Clerk's convention. 2 Any other questions or comments? If not, all in favor, 3 raise your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: The next one is to the 198th 9 District Attorney's office for 9 -- $936. It's for -- to 10 reimburse the District Attorney for witness expenses for a 11 198th court case. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 15 second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court approve the 16 late bill and authorize a hand check in the amount of $936 17 payable to the 198th District Attorney for witness fees -- 18 or witness expenses. Any other questions or comments? If 19 not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: I have one -- another one 25 that has to do with indigent health care. And in no way am 6-10-02 21 1 I -- am I recommending that we pay this or not, but I told 2 the vendor and the recipient that I would present this to 3 the Court. It's an invoice from a local physician for 4 $1,075. The recipient received services from this -- from 5 this doctor during a time that he was eligible for indigent 6 health care, and that was the period of November the 1st 7 through December 1st of '01. From December the 1st until 8 February the 25th of '02, the -- the doctor's office 9 presented statements to the recipient. At -- at -- on 2/25, 10 the recipient went into the hospital until -- for treatment 11 until 4/4. The State has a regulation that -- that if the 12 vendor holds an invoice for more than 95 days from the time 13 that the service is rendered, then that -- then the bill 14 becomes ineligible to be paid. In other words, if -- if the 15 County had to go to the State for reimbursement for -- for 16 indigent health care expenses, they would not allow this -- 17 this invoice. But it's -- the Court does have the option to 18 waive that, if it desired. During -- when the service was 19 rendered, the recipient was eligible, but the -- but the 20 bill never got to our indigent health care people. In fact, 21 the vendor never knew that -- that the recipient was 22 eligible until after the 95-day period was up. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why was that? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: The recipient never notified 25 him. 6-10-02 22 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When you say 2 "eligible," Tommy, you mean those -- that person is in our 3 system, in the indigent system? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: They were in our system at 5 the time that the service was rendered, but -- but the 6 vendor didn't know it. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I don't know 8 that the County ought to -- even though we have an option 9 like that, I don't know that we ought to get outside the 10 state guidelines. Just the way I feel about it. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The State -- the 12 State would -- it would not be eligible as a reimbursable 13 expense because of the lateness of the invoice; is that 14 correct? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: That's correct. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not due to the type 17 of service, anything like that? 18 MR. TOMLINSON: No, it was nothing to do 19 with -- with the type of service. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is -- how is the -- if we 21 were to pay it, does it accrue toward the total that we have 22 to pay before the State starts paying? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: No, because if -- if we did 24 apply for -- for state assistance once we reached our 25 6 percent, then they would disallow this payment as part of 6-10-02 23 1 that number. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we don't get any 3 benefit, even -- we don't get that either. And what was 4 the reason the vendor -- who's the doctor, correct? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: The doctor. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Didn't know the person 7 was on indigent health care? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: No, not at the time of 9 service. And -- and the recipient did not notify the doctor 10 as such until after the 95-day period was up. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's kind of 12 strange that the doctor wouldn't have known it going in. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think we'd put ourselves in 14 hot water if we go outside the state guidelines. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Sorry that the doctor wasn't 17 informed, but I'd have a hard time recommending this. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: It's not the County's 19 responsibility -- 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Right. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: -- to notify any vendor. So, 22 I mean, I -- it's not good that the vendor has to eat this, 23 but -- but, still -- and I agree with you. I think that 24 we -- I don't think there's -- that we should vary from the 25 state -- state's guidelines. 6-10-02 24 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Also, I think we're 2 setting ourselves up for future -- I mean, people just -- 3 you know, the vendors do what they want to and, "Send the 4 bill to the County; they'll pay it," kind of thing. And -- 5 so I'm not going to make a motion to pay that bill. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: I believe the consensus is 7 we'll take no action on that. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. That's all I need to 9 know. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Thank you, Tommy. At 11 this time, I would entertain a motion to waive reading and 12 approve the meeting -- the minutes of the May 13th regular 13 meeting -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- May 28th special session, 16 and May 28th special session. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move we -- for 18 approval of the minutes. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 21 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court 22 waive reading and approve the minutes of the regular meeting 23 of Monday, May 13th, the special meeting of Tuesday, May 24 28th, and the regular special meeting of Tuesday, May 28th, 25 all Year 2002. Any questions or comments? 6-10-02 25 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know, Judge. 2 We may want to read that one that was upstairs. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Add a little 5 entertainment here this morning. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: We could get people in the 7 audience to take on different roles. You be hostile, you be 8 intelligent, you be -- 9 (Laughter.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I did not say that. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: If not, all in favor, raise 13 your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. The next 18 item is to -- I'd entertain a motion to accept the monthly 19 reports as presented -- approve and accept the monthly 20 reports as presented. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 24 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court approve 25 and accept the monthly reports as presented. Any other 6-10-02 26 1 questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise your 2 right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. At the 7 request of the Sheriff, who seems to have stepped out for a 8 moment, we're going to take up -- 9 MS. SOVIL: He had to leave. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Oh, he had to go ahead and 11 leave? We'll take up Item Number 7, which is consider and 12 discuss setting a workshop to discuss the Sheriff's 13 Department long-range plan. The Sheriff has suggested and 14 requested that the workshop be set for Monday, June 17th, 15 from 1:00 to 4 p.m. out at the Kerr County Law Enforcement 16 Center. It's the Sheriff's intent to take the Court on an 17 intensive tour of the facility before we sit down and 18 actually get into the meat of the long-range plan. The 19 Sheriff feels strongly that this is something we need to do 20 before we get into the budget deliberations. What's the 21 sense of the Court? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm a go. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, sounds good. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Is that a motion, 25 Commissioner Baldwin? 6-10-02 27 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is a motion to 2 approve. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 5 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court set a 6 workshop to discuss the Sheriff's Department long-range plan 7 for Monday, June 17, Year 2002, beginning at 1 p.m. at the 8 Kerr County Law Enforcement Center. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, question on that. 10 Is there going to be -- I mean, how do we handle the Open 11 Meeting portion of that if we go into the jail, as I presume 12 we will? And I mean from the security standpoint, I don't 13 think we need a large group going with us, necessarily. Or 14 maybe we do. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, that would be up to -- 16 that will be up to the Sheriff. You know, if he -- we'll 17 let him handle that part of it, of the meeting. It would 18 be -- the meeting would be held under the Open Meetings Act. 19 Certainly, any discussion would be open to the general 20 public. My own feeling is that we'll call the meeting to 21 order, and probably recess while we have the tour so we 22 don't have a necessity for the court reporter to attempt to 23 take down the conversation and discussion on -- or 24 conversation and description of the jail facility. And then 25 we'll come back and go back into session to -- to sit down 6-10-02 28 1 and discuss the long-range plan in light of our tour of the 2 facility. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My question -- I'm 4 sorry. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Go ahead. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My question is, the 7 facility out there, being able to sit down, maybe with a 8 crowd even, to have this discussion. Are we -- is there a 9 place out there for that, or are we coming back to our 10 place? 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: No, we'll do it out there. 12 The Sheriff thinks the training room will be adequate. He 13 can set up the training room; it will hold about 30 people. 14 So, you know, we'll do what we can, and if necessary, I 15 guess we could adjourn to J.P. 2's courtroom. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: But we'll start out trying to 18 utilize the training room at the Sheriff's Office for -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it's a super 20 idea. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- the discussion. Okay. 22 Any other questions or comments? If not, all in favor, 23 raise your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 6-10-02 29 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Okay. Let's 3 go back, then, to Item Number 1, consider and discuss 4 approval of the Texas Department of Transportation Airport 5 Project Participation Agreement for engineering services for 6 Capital Improvement Project. Mrs. Caffall, come up here and 7 explain to us in plain English what that means. 8 MS. CAFFALL: Explain to you what? 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: English. 10 MS. CAFFALL: Oh. Well, this past March, the 11 Engineering Selection Services Committee chose Parkhill, 12 Smith, and Cooper as the engineering consultant to prepare 13 plans and specifications and engineering services for the 14 Capital Improvement Project scheduled for Fiscal Year 2003. 15 Construction costs of the capital improvements are estimated 16 at $2,477,000, and typically engineering services costs are 17 estimated at 10 percent of the construction estimate. The 18 grant budget allowed for $308,000 for engineering services, 19 and the contract negotiated with Parkhill, Smith, and Cooper 20 is for 205 thousand dollars, 500 -- $205,550, which is a 21 substantial savings. This grant agreement is for those 22 services, and we pay 10 percent -- excuse me, my voice is -- 23 I need to consider gargling with Drano. Excuse me. Do 24 y'all have any questions? One of the things that we did 25 when we asked for proposals from engineers was include all 6-10-02 30 1 the previous geotechnical work that had been done on the 2 airport, which I was able to find in our records back to 3 1980. The primary concern in this project for 2003 is the 4 overlay of the main runway, which every time it's been done 5 in the past, the runway's fallen apart; we've had to get 6 into reconstruction. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Had to get into what, 8 Megan? 9 MS. CAFFALL: We've had to get into 10 reconstruction because of base failures. So, I 11 front-lined -- or front-loaded our proposal request with all 12 the geotechnical information, and particularly the testing 13 and materials used in the last project four years ago, when 14 we overlaid the runway and it fell apart. So, I think 15 that's one of the reasons this engineering services contract 16 came in quite a bit lower than -- than TexDOT had estimated. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you go over the 18 elements of the project next year? 19 MS. CAFFALL: Primarily, they are overlaying 20 the main runway to increase our load capacity for larger 21 aircraft, expand our concrete ramp area that fronts where 22 the airplanes park and businesses can be located, and 23 relocating our airport entrance road to move it out of the 24 approach area on Runway 30. That's our precision runway. 25 We'd get our minimums; right now it is what they call a 6-10-02 31 1 dimensional criteria deficiency, and it will also allow us 2 to get a lower minimum on that runway. But those are the 3 primary elements. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where are they going to 5 move the road to? Just further to the east? 6 MS. CAFFALL: About 900 feet further east. 7 It's on property that we own -- the airport owns; we won't 8 have to purchase any property for that, but it will be as 9 far as it can go east. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it will come back 11 about -- through that property the City and County own that 12 was at one point looked at for some kind of business 13 development? I mean, is it coming -- 14 MS. CAFFALL: No, sir, it will be right 15 along -- that area that you're talking about is the top of 16 the triangle. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 18 MS. CAFFALL: It will take a small amount of 19 the road frontage side of that, but there -- the edge of the 20 triangle continues out further, and it will be along there. 21 That -- that area has always fallen into what we call the 22 runway protection zone. It's never been available for use 23 for anything but protection area. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But can it be -- I guess 25 what I'm getting at, is there a way to configure those 6-10-02 32 1 road -- since we're building a new road, any way to improve 2 access to that developable portion of the City/County 3 property so it makes it more valuable for leasing from the 4 City/County standpoint? 5 MS. CAFFALL: I guess the only difference 6 would be that it -- you're going to be entering a little bit 7 further down from 27 towards Center Point, but the actual 8 access will remain the same. There really isn't a whole lot 9 we can do about that. You'll still have to come in the 10 airport entrance road to get to it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's just part of the 13 improved master plan, isn't it? 14 MS. CAFFALL: Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're going to 16 relocate the ironworks and the whole stuff -- everything 17 there at the -- at the current entrance? 18 MS. CAFFALL: Yes, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The ironworks, Louis 20 Schreiner Field, that would be relocated? 21 MS. CAFFALL: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And repositioned in a 23 new location? 24 MS. CAFFALL: Yes, sir. I think when we 25 actually get to doing that, we may look at doing it a little 6-10-02 33 1 differently than it is now. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, but we're not 3 planning to abandon it or destroy it? 4 MS. CAFFALL: Oh, good heavens, no. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is 2003? 6 MS. CAFFALL: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: About when will -- during 8 that year will it -- this -- is it estimated that we'll 9 start the construction? 10 MS. CAFFALL: In -- one point that I was very 11 emphatic about and will stand behind is that this overlay of 12 the runway will occur in July -- in the period July through 13 August of 2003. That's the hottest, driest time of the 14 year. The base failures that we've had in the past have 15 been due to water or wet base material, so the whole project 16 will probably occur between hopefully June and September of 17 next year. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This doesn't 19 contemplate the extension of Runway 1230, does it, Megan? 20 MS. CAFFALL: No, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, Runway 1230 would 22 just be overlaid and remain the same distance -- length that 23 it is right now? We would just be moving the perimeter road 24 in anticipation of later extending that runway? 25 MS. CAFFALL: Well, actually, this -- this 6-10-02 34 1 relocation is -- is for getting the airport entrance road 2 out of our runway protection area. Right now it's too close 3 to the end of the runway. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 5 MS. CAFFALL: If the runway were to be 6 extended, it would have to be relocated again. I will share 7 with you -- and it's not -- it's not final, but I've had 8 reservations all along about the extension of this runway. 9 It's, in my opinion, going to be very expensive, and the 10 feedback that is coming back -- when you said "approved 11 master plan," I was nodding my head, but our master plan is 12 not approved right now. It is in Airspace Review with the 13 F.A.A., and comments are starting to come back that -- that 14 that runway extension may never occur from airspace 15 considerations. For the approaches to that runway, there's 16 hills farther out, so, you know, that whole extension is -- 17 is a consideration that both the City, County, and the 18 F.A.A. are going to have to look at as far as being a 19 reality. So, this road relocation is just for the runway 20 the way it is right now. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. How much 22 property beyond the new entrance -- the proposed new 23 entrance, how much additional property do we have to the 24 east? 25 MS. CAFFALL: This -- this road relocation 6-10-02 35 1 will go to the limits of the property that the airport 2 currently owns. If the runway is extended, there's a good 3 chunk -- I don't have the acreage figures with me; I can't 4 recall what they are, but it's a fairly good-sized portion 5 of land we'll have to buy, and acquire aviation -- 6 navigation easements beyond that. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move for approval. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I second approval. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 11 second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court approve the 12 Texas Department of Transportation Airport Project 13 Participation Agreement for engineering services for Capital 14 Improvement Project at the airport, and authorize the County 15 Judge to sign same. Any other questions or comments? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One question. I presume 17 this was drawn up by the City's attorney? 18 MS. CAFFALL: No, sir, this comes directly 19 from TexDOT. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, it's TexDOT's form. 21 MS. CAFFALL: TexDOT Aviation Division. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 23 MS. CAFFALL: It does have to be signed by 24 both attorneys, by ours and yours. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6-10-02 36 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 2 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you, 7 Megan. 8 MS. CAFFALL: Thank you. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item is Item Number 2, 10 consider and discuss allowing the Kerr County Market 11 Association to hold a farmers market on the Courthouse 12 Square. Commissioner Baldwin. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I'll invite 14 LuAnn Anderson up to the microphone, and while she's coming 15 up, I wanted to comment that she approached me a couple of 16 weeks ago to talk about this issue, and I suggested that -- 17 I'm just going to make one point, LuAnn; then I'm going to 18 turn it over to you. I suggested that she contact Mindy 19 Wendele, the director of the Downtown Kerrville Association, 20 and she did so. And Mindy called me over the weekend and 21 was -- said she was unable to be here because some City 22 function or something -- obviously, she has her priorities 23 out of line, but -- 24 (Laughter.) 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: She -- to let me know 6-10-02 37 1 that she is 110 percent in favor of -- of what we're going 2 to talk about here. So, I'd like to introduce the Court to 3 LuAnn Anderson, and I think maybe she even has some guests 4 that she would like to introduce, I guess. 5 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, I do. Thank you. Good 6 morning. Before we start, we would like to make a small 7 presentation to Commissioners. We'd like to give you a 8 little sample of the kinds of things that we plan to offer 9 at our market. These have been contributed by some people 10 who are already committed to participate in the market; 11 Manna Farms, La Pura Vida Enterprises, and of course a few 12 backyard gardeners who've grown a few tomatoes, berries, and 13 green beans and things. And we certainly hope that you 14 enjoy these. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very pretty. Thank 16 you, LuAnn. 17 MS. ANDERSON: Some of the folks that are 18 here today as supporters of our proposal -- I believe we 19 have a representative from Manna Farms, Lissanne Burkett. 20 We also have Elizabeth Baker, who is the president of 21 Gardeners of Kerrville and a co-founder of the Kerr County 22 Market Association. We have John and Helen Dietrich, 23 volunteers at the Dietert Senior Center and members of the 24 Gardeners of Kerrville. And Jackie Kayne, who's a 25 co-founder of the K.C.M.A. I understand you've been 6-10-02 38 1 provided a copy of the proposal, so I'd like to just take a 2 few minutes and highlight some of the points that I think 3 are critical to the presentation. Then I'll be glad to try 4 and respond to any questions that you might have. 5 When I moved to Kerr County three years ago, 6 I very quickly realized that there are an awful lot of 7 people here who grow an awful lot of good stuff. There are 8 an awful lot of very talented people; artists, 9 craftspersons, but I also very soon realized that there's 10 not a single central place for these people to come together 11 and market their products directly to consumers. 12 Historically, farmers markets were the way we did things for 13 a great part of the time this country has existed, but then 14 they fell into decline. It wasn't until about 20 years ago 15 that they began to come back into favor. Today, you find 16 farmers markets at country crossroads, you find them in 17 small towns, you find them in major cities, find them just 18 about everywhere except in Kerrville. And, so, our proposal 19 is to change that. We would like to bring new market 20 activities to our central city. We believe this would 21 create new business opportunities, greater activities in our 22 downtown area, and it will also bring a new opportunity to 23 support some of our school and youth groups, like Future 24 Farmers and 4-H. We think that's a critical point in what 25 we'd like to accomplish. 6-10-02 39 1 Texas Department of Agriculture puts out a 2 handbook for establishing and operating farmers markets. 3 I'd like to quote to you a few of the things that they bring 4 from their surveys of markets in this state. They point out 5 that merchants overwhelmingly favor downtown farmers 6 markets. Farmers markets increase sales in surrounding 7 businesses. Markets are a good way to promote a downtown 8 area. Markets create a potential for consumer education 9 about produce and about the agricultural industry. Farmers 10 markets provide a wide range of choices for consumers, and 11 they create a recreational potential, and therefore a 12 visitor attraction in their communities. On Pages 2 and 3 13 of our proposal, we've tried to point out some ways that we 14 think Kerrville Market Days would specifically benefit the 15 community. And what we do see is benefit; we do not see 16 ourselves as competition. We see us as being a complement 17 to existing activities and business. It's really not our 18 intention to compete for your space or time or customers. 19 So, what we're proposing is a market on the 20 Courthouse Square, second and fourth Saturdays, April 21 through December, nine months out of the year, or 18 out of 22 52 weekends. And we emphasize again, we see this as a 23 complementary activity to the things that already happen. 24 In fact, just looking at things that are already here that 25 helped us form this idea, the broom sales, the Tivy 6-10-02 40 1 cheerleaders, if their events should happen to coincide with 2 a Market Days event, we think both activities could 3 significantly benefit. We think the Market Days could be a 4 win-win situation for everybody concerned. 5 Another thing that I want to emphasize from 6 the presentation is our commitment to bring to this 7 community a top-quality activity. We see total focus on the 8 homegrown, homemade concept. What we absolutely do not see 9 this becoming is a flea market. Now, I like flea markets. 10 I go to flea markets. I think flea markets have a place, 11 but that place is absolutely not on our Courthouse Square. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Amen. 13 MS. ANDERSON: In order to be able to 14 exercise some control of what happens, of who comes and who 15 sells and how they behave, we've drafted a letter of 16 agreement. Every vendor who would participate in the market 17 would have to sign this letter of agreement, and the letter 18 of agreement specifically states each of the rules that you 19 have seen in this presentation, and it also states that each 20 vendor must abide by whatever laws, statutes, or ordinances 21 are in effect for their business. So, what began as a few 22 friends sharing an idea has now become an officially 23 registered, unincorporated, nonprofit association, that -- 24 we're the Kerr County Market Association. 25 With your approval, we would plan to conduct 6-10-02 41 1 the first market on either the 6th or the 13th of July. The 2 6th would coincide with the holiday weekend; that might be 3 fun. The 13th would actually be the second Saturday, and 4 would put us into a regular schedule. Again, with your 5 approval, we would go out immediately this week and start 6 finding more vendors to participate. We would provide 7 orientation to those vendors, and that would include their 8 signature on that letter of agreement or they can't be 9 there; they cannot participate. We'll go to the Chamber of 10 Commerce and ask for their help. We'll go to the Convention 11 and Visitors Bureau and ask for their assistance. We'll be 12 contacting all the local hotels and motels and asking them 13 to allow us to put information there for their guests. 14 We'll be asking for support from our local media, like 15 newspaper and radio, to make people aware of the market. We 16 believe that we can bring a very high-quality, fun, and 17 profitable activity to our central city. 18 Another part of our commitment to you and to 19 our community is that we're going to do our very best to 20 take care of the courthouse property. We recognize this is 21 a public property, it is a public place, and that would be a 22 major responsibility of everyone who participates. What we 23 ask of the County is, number one, your approval to go 24 forward with this idea. The only other thing we really can 25 foresee that we might need would be for the Sheriff to have 6-10-02 42 1 a deputy drive by from time to time; we'd really appreciate 2 that. We're committed to keeping the area clean and doing a 3 real cleanup at the end of each market day, and we would ask 4 your permission that we could put bagged trash into the 5 County's dumpsters. Again, that would be very much 6 appreciated. 7 To close, let me tell you about a couple 8 things that we've done since this was printed up. As 9 Commissioner Baldwin said, we've talked to Mindy. She 10 indicated enthusiastic, excited support for the project. 11 We've also been in touch with Texas Department of 12 Agriculture. We have all the forms ready, and as soon as we 13 have an approved signature, we're prepared to begin the 14 process to qualify for membership and then go to the Texan 15 Program. We're also ready to file our application to become 16 a T.D.A. certified farmers market. I've tried to go real 17 fast and not read it to you. But we believe that this 18 proposal really offers a lot of benefits for our community 19 in a lot of different ways, and we believe that there is the 20 community support out there in Kerr County to make this 21 market a success. Thank you for your time. I'll try to 22 answer any questions. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Does anyone have any 24 questions or comments? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Comment. I like the 6-10-02 43 1 idea. I'm just really trying to go through, if there's any 2 problems that I see from the County standpoint. I think 3 it's -- you know, I'm certainly in total support of any 4 farmers market in Kerrville, and I think the Courthouse 5 Square is a real good location, as long as it doesn't get 6 too big. If it grows to a point, I can see that we may have 7 to get it moved to the Ag Barn or some other -- or Louise 8 Hays Park, some larger venue. But I think, starting out, I 9 have no problem. Trash is really my only real concern. And 10 I see Glenn Holekamp in the back, if I could ask Glenn a 11 question. Glenn, how much excess space do we have in our 12 dumpster right now? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's kind of a 14 personal question. My gosh. 15 (Laughter.) 16 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, like, on Saturdays, it 17 would probably be okay, because we're picked up on Monday 18 mornings. I would imagine four or five bags would -- you 19 know, large trash bags would probably fit for -- but we 20 could not leave them lying outside of the dumpster, because 21 they don't pick those up. I have one question, if I may. 22 MS. ANDERSON: Sir? 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: Restrooms. 24 MS. ANDERSON: We've -- we've looked at that, 25 and we've kind of prowled around downtown looking for how we 6-10-02 44 1 might address that. One is the public restrooms that are 2 available at our Downtown Center over on Water Street. I 3 think, for the general public, if we were asked, that's 4 where we'd direct them. And for the general public, this 5 would not be the kind of thing where you come and stay all 6 day, so for customers, the restrooms might not be a real 7 issue. For the vendors, there is the public restrooms. We 8 would anticipate approaching the Arts Center and the museum 9 and ask them, pretty please, if we're real quiet and scrape 10 our feet, could we make use of your facilities for our 11 vendors. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Glenn, I visited with 13 Mrs. Anderson about that, and I know what your concern is. 14 And I assured her that we would not have any staff here to 15 open and close the courthouse for their use. 16 MR. HOLEKAMP: Thank you, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I knew that's what you 18 were thinking. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do have some 20 questions. I commend you for putting the proposal together, 21 and I thank you for coming today to address us and present 22 the proposal, and thank you for the basket. I'm sure when 23 my wife gets done with it, there won't be much left for me 24 in there, but -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Depends on your 6-10-02 45 1 question. She may want it back. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: She may want to take 3 it back. Liability insurance. Typically, when we allow 4 other groups of people to use courthouse, the public 5 facilities, there is liability insurance to cover the -- the 6 activities of the event for the duration of the event. How 7 would you propose to deal with that? I have a series of 8 questions; I'll take them one at a time. 9 MS. ANDERSON: Okay. We have considered 10 that. Any kind of event of any nature, that's always a 11 question that has to be considered. We do not have anybody 12 who's counsel to us at this point. We are very truly a 13 nonprofit association; we have no money. But we have done 14 some research, and I believe there are provisions that -- in 15 the code which creates what is specifically titled a -- an 16 unincorporated nonprofit association, and it's under the 17 Texas Uniform Act of Nonprofit Associations, I believe, 18 effective September 1995, which speaks to the issue of who 19 can be held liable for actions of whom. And we believe 20 that, while the Market Association could be considered 21 potentially liable in certain situations, that liability, as 22 I understand, reading the code, does not extend to the 23 individual members or anybody else. Obviously, if there was 24 a defect of some type in the -- the physical facility that 25 was beyond the care, custody, and control of the Market 6-10-02 46 1 Association, that might still become a County issue. But, 2 if your question is really do we have third-party 3 indemnification; are we prepared to offer any insurance to 4 protect the County, I'm sorry, but my answer is no. We 5 don't have any money. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I'm not an 7 attorney either, and I'm certainly not boned up on insurance 8 liability law, but experience suggests that if, for example, 9 somebody who attended the event were to injure themselves, 10 tripping over an apple crate or a corn crate or whatever 11 else, and your association had no liability insurance to 12 cover problems of that nature, my sense of it is that -- 13 that whoever decides to take on the issue of pursuing the 14 injury would look for the party with the deepest pockets, 15 and that party happens to be Kerr County, okay? 16 MS. ANDERSON: They also look -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Being an 18 unincorporated, not-for-profit association, assuming that 19 you have revenues in excess of expenses, how would they be 20 directed? 21 MS. ANDERSON: I strongly suspect we'd make a 22 donation to Kerr County. Because -- and I'm not trying to 23 be artificially altruistic with that answer, but the simple 24 fact is, we don't want to have any assets. We just want to 25 come together as a group, put our efforts and -- and our 6-10-02 47 1 ideas together to try to make this happen. After that, all 2 our -- our involvement would be in maintaining sufficient 3 control, maintaining the quality of the market. We have 4 collected no money. Whatever expenses we have incurred 5 to-date, we have individually -- just kind of out-of-pocket. 6 I think our expenses to-date are well less than $100. Our 7 biggest expense was we went and rested a post office box. 8 So, I don't anticipate collecting any money. I don't 9 anticipate acquiring any physical assets. I won't say that 10 would never change, but if it did, we are -- it is our 11 purpose to be nonprofit. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Worst-case/best-case 13 scenario, how many vendors do you see? From? To? 14 MS. ANDERSON: If, on the date that we open 15 on the first market day, we can have 10 vendors here, I will 16 feel that we have been extremely successful. If, at the end 17 of the year, we could report that we averaged 10 vendors 18 each market day, I would feel like we had been even more 19 successful. I think if we are that successful -- I believe 20 we will be -- then in the years to come, the market will 21 grow and there may come a time when it would be necessary to 22 look at an alternate location. But, initially, I think -- I 23 think we're going to start out small and try to be very 24 high, high, high quality, have a progression. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you jurying your 6-10-02 48 1 vendor/crafters by any -- in any way to -- to make certain 2 that the quality level is as you anticipated or would like 3 for it to be? 4 MS. ANDERSON: Not specifically jurying. 5 They will have to come to us and say, "I would like to 6 participate." They'll have to tell us what it is they're 7 going to sell. We want to see their product. They have to 8 commit to us that they're going to abide, in terms of food 9 products, with all the appropriate health regulations; city, 10 county, state. Craft items, they have to follow the rules, 11 whether it's collection of sales tax or whatever else, so 12 each individual will be responsible for that. But we do not 13 have a specific standard to jury specific produce. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess my concern is 15 the one that you expressed earlier about not wanting it to 16 be turned into a flea market, 'cause I echo the concern of 17 my colleague to the right here. I don't want to see that 18 happen either. Future revenue potential, on Page 3, you 19 talk about the fee structure and so forth. 20 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And those fees would 22 be collected by your group and retained by your group; is 23 that correct? 24 MS. ANDERSON: No, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No? 6-10-02 49 1 MS. ANDERSON: We believe that with the 2 success of the market, there may come a time when a fee 3 would be appropriate. This first year, the people who 4 participate -- it's going to be kind of sweat equity; 5 they're going to be contributing their effort. Once the 6 market's established and as it begins to grow, we think 7 others who choose to join might -- should kick in a little 8 bit, but our association would be responsible for seeing 9 those fees collected. But those fees, as we see it, would 10 then be payable to Kerr County. It's the County that 11 essentially hosts the event, and so it seems to me that the 12 City will have a chance to collect sales tax from increased 13 sales due to the market. The County, if they're the host, 14 should get something out of the deal, and those fees would 15 come to the County. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Holekamp raised 17 the issue of -- of restroom facilities, and I think that is 18 an important issue, given that you would be having people -- 19 vendors, at the very least, who would be stationed here all 20 day long, and certainly the need for comfort facilities 21 would come about. And there are always emergency situations 22 where someone has a need for that type of facility on the 23 spur of the moment, so you understand that that would not be 24 something that we would be looking to do. 25 MS. ANDERSON: We do not look to the County 6-10-02 50 1 to provide that. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On -- on your 3 proposal on Page 4, you talk about it would be held on the 4 second and fourth Saturdays, April through December. 5 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: From the hours of 7 what to what? 8 MS. ANDERSON: I believe we've stated that 9 the vendors would move in between 7:00 and 8 a.m. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 11 MS. ANDERSON: And they would be out no later 12 than 6 p.m. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That really gets to 14 the heart of my question. After October, when daylight 15 savings time goes away, it's dark. 16 MS. ANDERSON: True. We might need to change 17 the hours. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What, if any, special 19 lighting would be required at that point? 20 MS. ANDERSON: No, sir, if -- I'm -- thank 21 you for pointing that out to us. We would probably change 22 our closing time to sundown. We would not ask people to 23 stay here into the night, certainly as temperatures get a 24 little cooler, and we would not be asking for any special 25 lighting. 6-10-02 51 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I guess, finally, 2 there are a couple -- there are a couple other farmers 3 markets in town. 4 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One operates as -- 6 well, I guess they're both commercial ventures. One 7 operates one day a week, and one operates six days a week, I 8 believe. And you don't believe this is being a competition 9 to those -- those private enterprise-type businesses by 10 reason of the County permitting these? 11 MS. ANDERSON: I -- I shop both of those, and 12 it would be our intention to go to both of those folks and 13 say, "Please, come join us. Please bring a little of your 14 stuff down to the courthouse grounds on the second and 15 fourth Saturdays." But I really don't see it as 16 competition. One, they provide products that we would never 17 have, because we don't have refrigeration and that kind of 18 thing. And, two, they're there -- particularly the 19 six-day-a-week site, they're there all the time, and they 20 have a pretty loyal following. I think -- I think this 21 adds. I don't think we would be in real competition to 22 either of those businesses. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 24 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One other comment, which 6-10-02 52 1 is a follow-up on the hours. And it doesn't make that much 2 difference to me, but both markets of this type that I see 3 pretty much start winding down about 1 o'clock, and I would 4 almost -- I mean, I don't see -- and it seems to be a lot 5 easier, from everyone's standpoint, if you had, like, a -- 6 you know, a -- whenever you open, you know, 7:00 to 1:00, 7 something like that. I just don't see that there's a whole 8 lot of -- probably, of traffic likely to come, but I'm not 9 an expert on farmers markets. The other thing is, December 10 seems awful late to me. I think -- I mean, I know there's a 11 lot of fall crops that you can grow, but our weather gets 12 pretty inclement by December. You may want to look at a 13 November -- end of November date, or sometime in November. 14 MS. ANDERSON: After-harvest market, 15 something like that? What we've really been looking at in 16 December were for artisans and craftspeople to take 17 advantage of the holiday season and offer those types of 18 things, perhaps even more than produce. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think my final 20 comment would be more to the Court. If we decide 21 conceptually we like the idea or want to pursue the idea, do 22 we need some sort of an agreement with the association as to 23 what their responsibilities are? I'm seeing two nods -- 24 three nods. So, it appears -- I mean, I would think we 25 would, just so everyone's clear as to what we need. 6-10-02 53 1 Hopefully have maybe an attorney look at it, but not spend a 2 lot -- lot of time, because they'll make it into a 10-page 3 document. We don't need that, I don't think, at this point. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess I have one 5 final question on it. It has to do with the type of setup. 6 Do you envision booths, as such? A canopy-type booth? Or 7 are you envisioning your various vendors marketing off of 8 lawn tables, or how do you see it? 9 MS. ANDERSON: We have a couple of folks 10 who've already indicated that they will participate who are 11 a little more established, a little more set up to do 12 something like that. I think they're probably looking at 13 more of a booth, but we know very well that a lot of our 14 occasional participants will probably have a table and an 15 umbrella, and that's fine. We don't see that as a problem, 16 as long as they keep it clean and they conduct it in such a 17 way that it's a positive part of the market. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a couple 19 comments to the Court -- to the Court, kind of like you did, 20 Jonathan. I think the idea of an agreement is probably very 21 necessary outlining everybody's responsibilities. And my 22 inclination, since it's an unknown quantity and so many 23 variables involved that we probably have not contemplated in 24 this discussion this morning, if we are to proceed, I would 25 be more comfortable if we proceeded on a trial basis for a 6-10-02 54 1 certain period of time, to determine if everything has been 2 worked out and any unforeseen problems, whatever they may 3 be, are addressed, as opposed to going from the beginning 4 all the way through to the end of the year. I'd like to see 5 -- I'd like to see an opportunity to try it and then come 6 back and talk to the Court about what problems we had 7 encountered that we have not contemplated. 8 MS. ANDERSON: We would certainly be 9 agreeable to that, if it was the Court's wish. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other comments? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got -- I've got a 12 question about this agreement. Do you have an agreement 13 with the Veterans? Or the cheerleaders or Lion's Club? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kiwanis Club. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whoever. Mops. Mops 16 and brooms. Is that -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have one. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's close. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does the County have 20 one? I personally don't know if the County does. I don't 21 think so. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I mean, what's 23 the difference? If we're going to have an agreement, maybe 24 we need to set some kind of policy about how the facility is 25 used and that kind of thing. I just -- I'm just excited 6-10-02 55 1 about the whole thing, you know. I'm not -- I hope we don't 2 start lifting too many blankets and find too many boogers -- 3 looking for too many boogers, 'cause it's a positive thing. 4 And, you know, downtown Fort Worth, one of our grand cities 5 in the state, has one of the great -- greatest things like 6 this. I don't know. I see it as a good thing. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think it's a great idea 8 too, and I don't want to legalize it and bureaucratize it. 9 I think the difference between the other things you pointed 10 out, Commissioner, is that this is an ongoing activity. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: And those are, like, once a 13 year. And I think having a very simple agreement -- I'm 14 talking about a page and a half at the most -- wouldn't be a 15 bad idea. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I'm not opposed to 17 it. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: I also like the idea of -- of 19 giving the permission to the Market Association through the 20 end of the year, and then come back next -- next winter, 21 when they're not planning on having -- I think you have to 22 give them enough time for this thing to actually have a 23 chance to germinate, take place. If you give them two or 24 three months, in my opinion, that's not a legitimate trial 25 for them to actually see whether the concept is going to 6-10-02 56 1 take hold and succeed or not. I think it's a very 2 innovative notion. I want to emphasize to you, 3 Ms. Anderson, that the Commissioners Court will -- if we do 4 this, will give permission for this activity to the Kerr 5 County Market Association. 6 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, sir. 7 JUDGE HENNEKE: It is not to the individual 8 vendors. And we don't want to be burdened with their 9 problems. We don't want to hear their complaints. 10 (Laughter.) 11 JUDGE HENNEKE: We don't -- you know, y'all 12 have come to us as the umbrella organization, and I think 13 it's a great idea. I think we're going to support it, but 14 you all get -- you all get to take care of it. 15 MS. ANDERSON: As I told Commissioner 16 Baldwin, I spent 28 and a half years in public service, and 17 I will say, based on that experience, that there is no way I 18 can guarantee you that nobody will ever come down here and 19 complain about something we do. But I can guarantee you 20 that we will do everything we possibly can to solve 21 problems, to address issues, and to make this just one of 22 the best things that ever happened in our town. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. Where do we go 24 from here, Judge? Do we approve it, contingent on the 25 attorney? Or do you want to wait for an attorney's 6-10-02 57 1 agreement? 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: These folks need to get 3 going. I think what we need to do is to approve the -- the 4 proposal, subject to -- I'm going to call it a letter 5 agreement, which we will attempt to present to the Court at 6 the next meeting. But they need to go ahead and get their 7 advertising and get their arrangements underway if they're 8 going to do something in July. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Through the year 2002, 10 and then come back in January for the following year. I so 11 move. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 14 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court approve 15 granting permission to the Kerr County Market Association to 16 hold a farmers market on the Courthouse Square as presented 17 through the end of calendar year 2002, subject to the 18 execution of an acceptable agreement between the 19 Commissioners Court and the Kerr County Market Association. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Comment on the agreement 21 portion. I mean, I think it needs to be very, very short. 22 But I really think that Commissioner Baldwin's comments 23 about other organizations is great; I don't see any 24 difference. And I think that it -- that we need to really 25 require all of them to sign an agreement. It indemnifies 6-10-02 58 1 the County, which doesn't necessarily carry a whole lot of 2 water; we all know we'd be sued anyway if something happens, 3 but at least it helps a little bit that we thought about it. 4 But -- so I would, I guess, ask that -- presumably, we'll 5 refer this to the County Attorney to get a very generic 6 agreement put together, and then maybe, through the use of 7 an exhibit, tailor that use to each function. And that 8 exhibit can be written by Commissioner Baldwin, probably. 9 Something along that line, to me, would be useful. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Any other questions or 11 comments? I see the County Attorney hasn't made it up yet 12 today, so we'll have to refer this to him. If there are no 13 further questions or comments, all in favor, raise your 14 right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Thank you, 19 Ms. Anderson. 20 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you. 21 (Applause.) 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We made it through two 23 items here. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Moving right along. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, we are going to 6-10-02 59 1 go to Item Number 3, which is a public hearing to consider 2 closing, abandoning, and vacating a portion of Larry -- of 3 Larry Lane. Ms. Anderson? Ms. Anderson? Grab that 4 gentleman right in front of you, take him out in the hall 5 and speak with him. That's the County Attorney. At this 6 time, the Court will go into recess in order to conduct a 7 public hearing on the closing, abandoning, and vacating of a 8 portion of Larry Lane. 9 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:15 a.m., and a public hearing 10 was held in open court, as follows:) 11 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Court will now open the 13 public hearing on the issue of closing, abandoning, and 14 vacating a portion of Larry Lane. Is there any member of 15 the public who would like to address the Court during this 16 public hearing on the issue of closing, abandoning, and 17 vacating a portion of Larry Lane? Once again, is there any 18 member of the public who would like to address the Court 19 during this public hearing on the issue of closing, 20 abandoning, and vacating a portion of Larry Lane? 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: We'll go one more time. 23 We're in a public hearing on the issue of closing, 24 abandoning, and vacating a portion of Larry Lane in 25 Precinct 1. Is there any member of the public who would 6-10-02 60 1 like to address the Court on the issue of closing, 2 abandoning, and vacating a portion of Larry Lane? Seeing 3 none, we will close the public hearing and reconvene the 4 regular session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. 5 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:16 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 6 meeting was reopened.) 7 - - - - - - - - - - 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: The next item for 9 consideration is Item Number 4, consider and discuss 10 closing, abandoning, and vacating a portion of Larry Lane in 11 Precinct 1. Commissioner Baldwin? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I move that 13 we do approve closing, abandoning, and vacating that portion 14 of Larry Lane in Precinct 1. And I guess that -- that is 15 outlined and described in the application that is in our 16 packets. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 19 Baldwin, second by Commissioner Letz, that the Court approve 20 closing, abandoning, and vacating that portion of Larry Lane 21 described in the application contained in the Court's agenda 22 book. Ms. LeMeilleur, is there anything you'd like to say 23 at this time? 24 MS. LEMEILLEUR: No, Your Honor. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. Franklin, do you 6-10-02 61 1 have any comments? 2 MR. JOHNSTON: No. 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Any other questions or 4 comments? If not, all in favor, raise your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 9 MS. LEMEILLEUR: Thank you very much. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Next item for consideration 13 is Item Number 5, but before we do that, want to take a 14 break? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do. I'm not up for 16 Bill Stacy right now. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: At this time, we're going to 18 take our mid-morning break and reconvene promptly at 10:30. 19 (Recess taken from 10:18 a.m. to 10:30 a.m.) 20 - - - - - - - - - - 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. We'll reconvene this 22 regular session of the Kerr County Commissioners Court. 23 Next item for consideration is Item Number 5, consider and 24 discuss appeal to Commissioners Court recording O.S.S.F. 25 rural property transfer. Commissioner Baldwin. 6-10-02 62 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I have a 2 constituent in the office today -- not office; in the 3 audience today that I wanted to introduce you to, Mr. W. G. 4 Bill Stacy. He's new in town, and he's really a shy-type 5 fellow, so he came to me with a concern with the sale of his 6 home, and I thought maybe that you guys didn't have anything 7 to do today; that you would like to hear what he had to say. 8 So, Mr. Stacy, be bold. 9 MR. STACY: Thank you, Commissioner Baldwin. 10 My wife and I are downsizing. We're -- we have moved into 11 the city. We've -- unfortunately, we've transferred from -- 12 from Mr. Baldwin's precinct; we're now in Mr. Letz' 13 precinct. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you say that is 15 fortunate? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Fortunate or unfortunate? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's unfortunate, 18 isn't it, Bill? That-a-boy. 19 MR. STACY: So you have a -- a picture there 20 of our house. And, oddly enough, the septic system that 21 we're talking about is almost where that picture -- the 22 person taking the picture was standing there. You have a 23 picture of the front and back of the house. We are in the 24 process of selling the house. We've lived there since 1980. 25 The house was built and we moved into it in 1980. We have 6-10-02 63 1 two -- two tanks that are hooked together and are -- and a 2 drain line. If you look back on the back page, there's a 3 map there of the lot, and I drew in approximately the area 4 where the two tanks are. In 1980 -- and the leach line 5 there. In 1980, the State only called for one tank. 6 As some of you well know, I got my Ph.D. in 7 septic systems at Camp Mystic when I was 14, and I learned 8 then if you had a -- a leach line and there was a little 9 soggy ground around it, you just made a longer leach line. 10 But a leach line should be 18 inches below the soil, 11 surrounded by rock, and covered with some paper. Our 12 particular leach line was in gravel, perforated pipe, and 13 covered by wallboard, leftover wallboard. There is no -- I 14 don't guess, no extra -- I walked the leach line. It's 15 right on the side of the hill and goes down, and there's no 16 extra water there. I went out to the U.G.R.A. last week and 17 paid them $250, talked to Stuart Barron, and he said, "Well, 18 pump the thing out." And that's what is necessary to get it 19 licensed, because in those days of 1980, there was no such 20 thing as a license. 21 I got a call -- I made arrangements with -- 22 with a pumper, got the best price. They gave me a list of 23 pumpers; I got the best price of $205 to pump out the septic 24 tanks, and then my wife got a call -- called me and said the 25 pumper wanted $800 to expose the drain line and to expose 6-10-02 64 1 all the pipes. I immediately -- that got my full attention. 2 I got ahold of Stuart at the U.G.R.A. again and said, "What 3 is that all about?" He said, "Well, we have to follow the 4 rules." I said, "I happen to have made some of the rules, 5 and I wasn't familiar with the rules you're talking about." 6 He said, "Well, we have a whole new set of rules." So, I 7 hot-footed it out to the U.G.R.A. and got a set of the 8 rules, which he -- which he gave me, which a copy is in 9 your -- in your file there of two of the more important 10 problems there -- in there, of the rules. 11 And, as I said, I was -- I was working with 12 septic tanks before almost anybody in the room was born, at 13 my age, at the camps, at Camp Mystic and Camp Rio Vista, 14 where we had hundreds of people using them. And, obviously, 15 you had to go -- your septic tank -- you had to have a good 16 septic tank. Now, I checked in there on the rules, and on 17 Page 3 or 4 -- I forget what it is, that -- Page 5, what 18 I've done, which they -- which this has to be done -- this 19 afternoon at 2 o'clock, we're going to pump out the septic 20 system. They have been exposed. And on Page 6, I've done 21 everything, but the last on the -- D, I have not done, 22 because we have lived there for 23 years -- 22 years-plus, 23 no problem. And I think when you distort the integrity of 24 the leach line, you're asking for a problem. 25 When I went back and talked to Stuart in his 6-10-02 65 1 office, Stuart said, well, when we pumped it out, he should 2 have told me about -- I mean, in our first conversation, he 3 should have told me about these rules. And what he intended 4 to do was to tell me about them, so then we talked about the 5 rules. And I said, "Stuart, what kind of system are you 6 talking about? Are you talking about an aerobic? Forget 7 it, because we all know aerobics don't work." He said no, 8 and he drew a little picture -- little diagram on his 9 scratch pad. And I said, "Wait a minute, Stuart. You're 10 telling me what you want in the office here, and you haven't 11 even seen my system. Our system has worked perfectly good 12 for 22 years. We've never touched it, and there's no reason 13 to touch it now, except what you want." He said, well, if 14 you want to have an approved -- I mean a licensed system, 15 then you have to do what we say. I said, "But we can 16 approve it, but it won't be a licensed." And my wife, who 17 works for Coldwell Banker, says these systems have to be 18 licensed so it can be passed along. 19 Gentlemen, I can say this. I'm asking for a 20 waiver of this system, 'cause it works. It was put in by 21 somebody who was involved in septic tanks, knows what he's 22 doing. I don't -- I think that the one situation that they 23 asked for is too expensive and not practical, on a practical 24 basis. There's no leaching there. There's no moisture 25 there. Stuart did ask was there any problem with the 6-10-02 66 1 groundwater, and I said no, we're -- don't have to worry 2 about groundwater, 'cause the evaporation goes up. It does 3 not go down in leach lines. There's a dry creek that's 50 4 or 60 feet away. We're several hundred feet from a creek 5 there that does have water in it. 6 So, gentlemen, I'm asking -- here's a -- a 7 house that has been without the benefit of all these experts 8 on septic tanks we've had in our community in the last few 9 years. It's an interesting house, a very comfortable house. 10 My wife and I -- it has three bedrooms, two baths, and we 11 only use one bedroom, one bath. We have a living room we 12 don't use, and it has grass, and I can't mow the grass any 13 more. I'm too old for that sort of nonsense, so we have to 14 sell it. And somebody's going to get a very comfortable 15 house, I can tell you that. It's probably one of the most 16 comfortable houses. You're looking at a picture of a house. 17 We lived in that house, incidentally, for two years with 18 nothing but ceiling fans and fireplace, so -- until we got 19 air-conditioning. Our -- our utility -- our electric 20 bill -- it's all electric -- our electric bill was about $26 21 a month. 22 So, anyways, there we are. We have two 23 tanks, a leach line that works. This whole thing has 24 worked, and now I'm fighting the bureaucrats, and it's just 25 out of control on what the bureaucrats want. I was told in 6-10-02 67 1 Stuart's office -- and Stuart is here; he can confirm 2 everything I'm saying, 'cause I wouldn't say anything 3 without it being what he said. So, that's it. I'm asking 4 for a variance from -- from the Court on this system. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question. 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Shoot. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's to the Court or 8 to Stuart, or to the Judge, if you want to answer. I 9 haven't looked at our rules real recently. I read the 10 O.S.S.F. rules, but I thought that when we did the real 11 estate transfer, to get a licensed system, it had to go 12 through an inspection process, but that you didn't have to 13 -- you just had to get it inspected, and if it was in 14 compliance, you didn't have to do anything if you want -- 15 don't want an unlicensed system. Didn't we vote to do it 16 that way? 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's my understanding. And 18 my question for Mr. Stacy is, what are you asking the Court 19 to do? 20 MR. STACY: For a variance. 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: For what? 22 MR. STACY: Of this system, so I can get a 23 licensed system. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: We can't grant you a license; 25 we don't have the authority to grant you a license. 6-10-02 68 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You don't need a license 2 to sell the property. 3 MR. STACY: Well, I understand that, but my 4 wife tells me -- she's in the real estate business. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6 MR. STACY: And y'all -- none of us are in 7 the real estate business. And I think Becky could tell you 8 more about it -- 9 MS. COWDEN: Kitty. 10 MR. STACY: -- about that, of what is -- what 11 is needed. And I'm just saying that the Court does have the 12 right to grant exemptions. 13 MS. COWDEN: There are lenders who do require 14 a licensed system. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't think the Court has 16 the statutory authority to grant a license unless the system 17 meets the T.N.R.C.C. requirements. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's my problem. I don't 20 think the Court can grant a variance for purpose of license. 21 I think we can grant a variance for purposes of inspection, 22 for purposes of transfer, but I don't think we can grant a 23 variance for purposes of licensing. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, I'm 25 confused by a lender requiring a license. What if we didn't 6-10-02 69 1 have a licensed system in this county? We don't require a 2 license on a real estate transfer. I mean, we can have a 3 letter that says a system appears to be in compliance if you 4 don't want -- or you can issue a license, but we're under no 5 requirement -- 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: We don't have any control 7 over what lenders do. If the lender wants the house to be 8 painted purple, we can't keep them from requiring that the 9 house be painted purple. Your only option is, if you don't 10 want the money, you tell them, "I'm not going to paint it 11 purple." And they say, "Well, you're not going to get the 12 money." You say, "Fine." The same thing with a licensed 13 septic system. If the owner doesn't want to license the 14 septic system, they don't have to license the septic system, 15 but the property may not be eligible for financing. That's 16 the decision they make. I mean, I don't think this Court 17 has the ability to -- to grant a license to a septic system 18 that doesn't meet the statutory requirements. Stuart? 19 MR. BARRON: I agree with what the Judge 20 said, and it doesn't have to be licensed to be transferred. 21 I told Mr. Stacy -- and it might have been a 22 misunderstanding. I didn't feel it was a misunderstanding 23 when he came in there, I believe it was Tuesday or 24 Thursday -- that the system would have to go through the 25 inspection process; however, it wouldn't have to be 6-10-02 70 1 licensed. Mr. Stacy wants a license for it. I told him if 2 he wanted a license, it will have to be inspected to insure 3 that it does meet state standards, which his system, from 4 the discussions that we've had, will not meet state 5 standards. I have not been out there before. From what he 6 has told me, it's not -- it won't meet the standards. So, I 7 told him we can not license it unless he wants to uncover it 8 and prove to me, or to our office, that it will meet the 9 standards. And that was the $800 charge that he was talking 10 about, to have somebody go out there, dig it up, look at it, 11 see if it was in compliance or not. At that time, it would 12 be licensed if it was. He has decided not to go that route. 13 He wants to get it pumped out, have a walk-over inspection 14 to say that there's nothing surfacing from the ground, it 15 appears that there's nothing -- no problems with the system, 16 and then make it eligible for transfer. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about it does not 18 meet the state standards? 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: I don't think Stuart knows, 20 'cause he hasn't gone out there to look at it. 21 MR. BARRON: I haven't been out there. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You made the comment 23 that it does not meet state -- 24 MR. BARRON: From what Mr. Stacy has told me, 25 it's 150 foot long. For his particular house, it would have 6-10-02 71 1 to be around 240 foot long, depending on the width of the 2 trench, and the drainfield is sloping downhill. The 3 drainfield has to be completely level. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's the T.N.R.C.C. 5 requirements? 6 MR. BARRON: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that met the rules 8 before there were any rules. 9 MR. BARRON: In 1980, as he has stated, there 10 was licenses before that date. There was licenses as early 11 back as '76, we have on file. 12 MR. STACY: I disagree with that, 'cause we 13 couldn't -- if it was, we didn't know where to get a 14 license; put it that way. I got the -- the first 15 conversation that -- that Stuart and I had was on the 22nd, 16 and that's when I knew nothing about the so-called rules. 17 It was only when I heard about the $800 -- my wife tells me 18 that of the $800, $200 of that was for the pump-out, so it's 19 really $600 to -- to -- but it got my full attention. 20 Actually, I got a worker and I've uncovered the tanks to 21 clean it out. It's ready to -- we've lifted the plugs; all 22 he's got to do -- and I talked to the pumper this morning. 23 He's coming in at 2 o'clock this afternoon. And it's my 24 understanding -- it's my understanding, and that's why I'm 25 here, that this Court has the right to give a variance to 6-10-02 72 1 your designee of a system. Now, if you're -- if you say 2 that's not true, I don't know. I think you do, as I 3 understand it. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My -- I don't know, 5 Bill. I have no idea. I'm still hung up over here with 6 this -- if -- do all systems that are 20 or 30 years old, 7 and -- and they -- there's a transfer of real estate, do you 8 require them to bring them up to today's standards? 9 MR. BARRON: No, sir. They -- we go out 10 there and do an inspection. We look for surfacing effluent, 11 and we look inside the tanks; we make sure the tank is not 12 overfull or underfull, indicating that there would be a leak 13 in it or there's a stoppage in the drainfield line. If none 14 of those options are there -- can you think of anything else 15 that those -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you had 17 mentioned that his was too short, I think was the problem 18 here. Too short compared to what standard? 19 MR. BARRON: Today's standards. If we 20 license them today, we have to go by today's standards. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 22 MR. STACY: There's a reference in here to a 23 T.N.R.C. handbook in Austin, which he showed it to me; I 24 didn't see it. The -- this is why I'm saying that the Court 25 -- since he is your employee, you can advise him of -- of -- 6-10-02 73 1 and give him a variance on this system. It's just -- it's 2 worked for 20 some-odd years. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I'm going back to 4 the -- I don't understand why you need a license. I mean, 5 if I was you, I wouldn't need a license. 6 MR. STACY: There was nobody to license in 7 those days. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know. 9 MR. STACY: Incidentally, on my little 10 subdivision, there's half a dozen -- not half a dozen. 11 There's -- I put in two systems that have been approved, 12 have been licensed and approved, and the houses were sold. 13 But there's -- they've changed the formula. They got one 14 out there that they -- they throw a switch, and six months 15 you -- you throw a switch and it goes on one set of pipes, 16 and in another six months you throw it back and it goes to 17 another. Got one out there that's flat, and has a whole 18 bunch of level sitting in rock. There's several different 19 systems. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 MR. STACY: They've changed the rules and all 22 that. So, when I -- when this -- when we got this same -- 23 these confounding stories, and they -- the $800 charge, I 24 said, hey -- I knew that y'all had the right to -- to 25 authorize a variance. 6-10-02 74 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think we can 2 authorize a variance, I mean, from -- from the standpoint of 3 approval of a system, but we can't make a license. We can't 4 issue a license which is using T.N.R.C.C. rules. 5 MR. STACY: That's to him, if you would grant 6 the variance. Then it would be up to him to go -- go with 7 the flow or not. 'Cause, like I say, he -- he has -- what 8 he wanted, he drew me a little sketch of what he wanted, but 9 there are no -- no guarantee that that's going to work. I 10 got one that does work. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, I understand that. 12 And, I mean, I guess what I'm going back to is that we're 13 not requiring a license. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: We are not requiring a 15 license. The applicant is asking for a license. And, under 16 our rules -- I think under the state requirements, if they 17 want a license today, the system must meet today's 18 requirements. 19 MR. BARRON: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: We are not -- this Court is 21 not requiring Mr. Stacy to obtain a license in order to 22 transfer the property to the new owners to use the existing 23 system. I want that to be perfectly clear. 24 MR. STACY: Well -- 25 MR. BARRON: The only thing I might add to 6-10-02 75 1 that is, if -- if the mortgage company wants to do it, the 2 Court has no -- has no legal recourse against the mortgage 3 company. They can require whatever they like. 4 MR. STACY: Well, you know, you see -- you 5 see what that puts -- and if I come up with a system, how do 6 I know -- there's no guarantee that what I want will work. 7 He may or may not approve it, see? And so we're getting 8 back to who's in charge. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the system works now. 10 I mean, I guess I'm baffled that a lender is going to 11 require a licensed system. I can see a lender requiring an 12 inspection, which you've had, and your system's in 13 compliance. And, I mean, I've never heard of a lender 14 requiring a licensed system. 15 MS. COWDEN: You know, I'm real confused here 16 too, because we've been closing a lot -- lot of deals at the 17 title companies, and the title companies are requiring this 18 license to transfer the property, and now y'all are saying 19 that we don't have to have a license to transfer property? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 21 MS. COWDEN: Boy, is there some confusion out 22 there, because the real estate industry out there thinks 23 that you have got to have a real estate -- you've got to 24 have a licensed septic system to transfer it. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: The system has to be 6-10-02 76 1 inspected to transfer the license, but the -- the real 2 estate transfer does not require a license. All it requires 3 is the system be functioning appropriately. I mean -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You need an inspection. 5 It has to be inspected, but it's not licensed. I mean, if 6 you wanted it licensed -- 7 MS. COWDEN: And the only person to do that 8 is the U.G.R.A.? 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's correct. There's -- 10 he's the County's designated -- it's not the U.G.R.A.; it's 11 Stuart Barron. Mr. Barron is the County's Designated 12 Representative for purpose of enforcing the T.N.R.C.C. 13 rules, as amended by this Court. 14 MS. COWDEN: There's still some confusion 15 there, because there's nothing that they will give you in 16 writing except a license. 17 MR. BARRON: We have issued letters saying 18 that it appears not to be failing from the surface, a 19 surface inspection. 20 MS. COWDEN: So, you can do that? 21 MR. BARRON: We have. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that -- I think 23 you should give an inspection letter. I think there should 24 be a form inspection -- not necessarily a letter form; a 25 form that says passed inspection, period. It's not a 6-10-02 77 1 license, but it's just a -- you've -- it passes inspection. 2 And I can see, you know, that it should -- I think we should 3 do that, just from, you know, a customary standpoint. 4 MS. COWDEN: There's a lot of confusion. 5 MR. STACY: Well, you understand where -- 6 where I'm coming from on a system that should be -- by 7 anybody's yardstick, should be approved. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: It is approved. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It is approved. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: It is approved. It's not 11 licensed, and it's not going to be licensed unless you -- 12 unless that system meets today's requirements. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can't transfer a 14 nonexistent license. 15 JUDGE HENNEKE: There's no license to 16 transfer. 17 MR. STACY: Well, okay. What you're -- what 18 he's telling me is I got to go with -- with a longer leach 19 line, I guess, what we're talking about. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To get a license. I 21 mean, what I'm hearing is that you don't have to do anything 22 else. You can get the -- it's been inspected and appears to 23 be working. You can get that today. If you want to get it 24 licensed, you're going to have to add drainfield -- 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: But that -- 6-10-02 78 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- and change the -- 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: You have to satisfy today's 3 requirements, whatever they are. 4 MR. BARRON: And it has not been inspected as 5 of yet, to -- 6 MR. STACY: 2 o'clock this afternoon. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Stuart, how long is 8 his drainfield today? 9 MR. BARRON: He claims it's 150 foot. I have 10 not been -- 11 MR. STACY: I don't know if it's that long or 12 not. It's overgrown, so I couldn't -- didn't measure. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is your 14 requirements? 15 MR. BARRON: For that size house, it should 16 be 240 feet. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that 150 -- what 18 did you say, 150? 19 MR. BARRON: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that a formula by 21 T.N.R.C.C.? 22 MR. BARRON: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, 800 bucks for 90 24 feet of line? Pretty expensive. 25 MR. STACY: Yeah. Well, like -- I don't 6-10-02 79 1 know. I just came here hoping I'd get some relief, but I 2 see that's not -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have aspirins in 4 the office. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think that -- I 7 think this brings up a point. I mean, it's -- we may have 8 to get this back on the agenda, because obviously there's 9 confusion, at least in the real estate -- maybe we just have 10 to go to some of the realtors. 11 MS. COWDEN: There are closers who say you 12 have to have a license for us to do it, so I'm going to go 13 back to Jarrod Hamil and ask him what the real rules are. 14 And if I can -- if all I need is a letter to transfer some 15 property from Stuart -- he does have to inspect it? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Pay a fee -- you 17 pay the fee, he inspects it, and if it appears to be in 18 compliance, his letter will say, "This system appears to be 19 in compliance." 20 MR. BARRON: I don't know if it will say it 21 appears to be in compliance. It will say that it does not 22 appear to be surfacing. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 24 MR. BARRON: Causing a health hazard. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Appears to be 6-10-02 80 1 functioning. 2 MR. BARRON: I won't even go that far. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 4 MR. STACY: Well, I mean, this is -- 22 5 years, and nothing; it's been working fine. And we -- I 6 took the tops off of it; there's water there, everything's 7 fine. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Good. 9 MR. STACY: A little smelly, but -- anyway, 10 thank you for not helping me, I guess. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we don't think -- I 12 don't think you need help. 13 MR. STACY: Well, I don't know. If he's your 14 employee and he's taking the position he's not going to 15 issue a license, which my real estate wife says I need to 16 sell the property, and Becky's kind of backing that up -- 17 MS. COWDEN: Kitty. 18 MR. STACY: Kitty. 19 JUDGE HENNEKE: Bill, it's not that he won't 20 issue -- he's saying if you want a license, you have to meet 21 today's standards. 22 MR. STACY: Well, see, when it was put in, it 23 was way ahead of the standards. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: That's 22 years ago. 25 Standards caught up with it. 6-10-02 81 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We really have a major 2 problem here, 'cause Bill's going to go out of this room and 3 tell people that we did -- we didn't want to help him. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's a bad thing 6 to happen, when it's not true. So, we -- somehow, we need 7 to get down to the bottom line here of, number one, what 8 does he want? 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: He wants a license. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm glad you 11 picked that up. I didn't quite get to that point. What 12 does he want? Can we provide that for him? 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: No. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, is the answer. Do 15 you understand that? 16 MR. STACY: What part of no don't you 17 understand? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why would -- why would 19 he want a license? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why would he want a 22 license? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know that answer. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because it's not 25 licensed now. 6-10-02 82 1 MR. STACY: No, it's not licensed now, and 2 needs to be licensed, as I understand it. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, your wife sent you 4 down here, like my wife sends me to H.E.B. with -- 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: She sends you with a list. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Saying that you have 7 to have a license, 'cause she's a real estate lady, and -- 8 David, you want to get in on this? This is prime stuff 9 here, buddy. 10 MR. MOTLEY: I need to go over and get the 11 current set of rules, is what I have to do. I think 12 Stuart's probably more familiar with the practicalities of 13 it than I am. 14 MR. BARRON: I don't know if you'll have time 15 to read them. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think -- just 17 thought Bill would be kind of upset. I don't want him to 18 leave here saying ugly things against -- 19 MR. STACY: I won't say ugly things about 20 you. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: About me? 22 MR. STACY: No. No. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Need to get that in 24 writing, I can tell you. 25 MR. STACY: I remember all about the Hunt 6-10-02 83 1 Store stories. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, stop. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I'd let Charlene 4 know that -- or whoever's handling the real estate 5 transaction, Kitty, that you don't need -- in this county, 6 you do not need a licensed system to transfer real estate. 7 Do not need it. 8 MS. COWDEN: But you do have to have an 9 inspection. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yes. 11 MR. STACY: That's what they told me. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're going to get an 13 inspection. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you want to 15 transfer the license, you have to -- you have to do what's 16 necessary from the -- still within compliance of T.N.R.C.C. 17 regs, correct? If you had a license and want to transfer a 18 license? 19 MR. BARRON: We do the same inspection to 20 determine that the system is not surfacing or causing any 21 health hazard that we can see from the surface, and then we 22 transfer that license. It's the same type of inspection, 23 other than one's licensed and one's not. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's left up to the 25 homeowner. If they want to -- if they want to license their 6-10-02 84 1 system, they can do that. They can go back in and upgrade 2 it and license it, and we'll license it at the time of 3 transfer, but they're not required to. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. All right. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you going to be 6 out there at 2 o'clock at his house today? 7 MR. BARRON: Yes, sir. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Be gentle, please. 9 MR. BARRON: You want to come? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 11 MR. STACY: It's in your precinct. You got 12 to know what's going on in your precinct. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do know what's going 14 on in my precinct. Y'all are going to be out at your house 15 at 2 o'clock. 16 MR. STACY: Well, you can get Morgan Dean to 17 move his stuff. Is that asking too much? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can hardly wait for 20 the breakfast meeting tomorrow morning. 21 MR. STACY: Thank you. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: All right. The next item for 23 consideration is Item Number 6, consider and discuss 24 adopting revised Kerr County Subdivision Rules and 25 Regulations. Commissioner Letz. 6-10-02 85 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're getting real close. 2 (Laughter.) 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think too much about 4 these things. Let's go through the easy part. In the 5 packet, you have the latest revised version with some pink 6 tabs and some blue tabs. Pink tabs are for the Subdivision 7 Rules. First, on Page 17, the words that are in red, which 8 is "percent of" -- I think the sentence needs to be clear. 9 We're not changing anything. We're just saying that the 10 pre-construction runoff rate -- the post-construction runoff 11 rate to the point of flow leaves -- point of flow leaving 12 the subdivision has to exceed the pre-construction runoff 13 rates for 2-, 10-, and 100-year storms, respectively. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: So, you're deleting the words 15 "percentage of"? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The words "percentage 17 of." 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, you're taking 19 that out? Okay. That answers my question, thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Next pink tab on Page 23, 21 this is to make this language conform to the newest language 22 we received from Stuart regarding on-site septic. And it's 23 a -- there used to be "two" there, and we're inserting 24 "three." So, any subdivision -- or any tract -- any 25 subdivision or tract less than 3 acres needs to be run by 6-10-02 86 1 on-site septic. If it's greater than 3 acres, it does not 2 need to go for any kind of subdivision review. And that is 3 a figure that Stuart came up with based on an average 4 drainfield and average well, an average lot, about the 5 amount of acreage you need to make sure you don't have any 6 problems, so we'll go with 3 acres there. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If the lot is less 8 than 3 acres. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: Is that an average, or just -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, it's an absolute. 11 'Cause if there's a lot -- because -- because if they're all 12 larger than 3 acres, it's just presumed you can easily put 13 in a septic system -- well, actually a -- there's no well 14 involved there, but that's it. On the rules themselves, on 15 the appendix, the first blue tab is -- incorporates some new 16 floodplain language that we talked about at the last 17 meeting. 18 MS. LAVENDER: We don't have a blue tab. 19 Page? 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Three. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Page 3. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Appendix B. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Appendix B. Page 3 of 24 the appendixes. It's incorporated into the floodplain 25 determination language we discussed last time. This is the 6-10-02 87 1 language that Stuart wrote that he feels meets the current 2 requirements. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who filed? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm sorry -- yes. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Actually, I take that 7 back. There is -- that's on the next tab, I think. This 8 tab is to -- adding back in that we are -- the surveyor is 9 going to locate -- do the floodplain analysis, because they 10 are certified engineers. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then the next tab 13 is -- 14 AUDIENCE: What page? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I haven't got to it yet. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Twelve. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Page 12 is the fee 18 schedule, and I am recommending that on these, only the ones 19 that are -- that are left in black are the ones that really 20 relate to subdivision. The rest of them are different kind 21 of determinations, and it's easier to me to delete all of 22 the red ones, because every time one of these other fees 23 change, we have to change all the Subdivision Rules. So, 24 we're only going to have fees that are directly related to 25 the subdivisions in here. 6-10-02 88 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: These would be, then, 2 posted by whom, and where? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, floodplain -- 4 Stuart -- they have a list out at U.G.R.A. and Stuart's 5 office for floodplains. You have the on-site septic. But, 6 really, all these septic things have nothing to do with the 7 subdivision. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with that. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So it's just -- 10 basically, if it doesn't pertain, I got rid of it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's gone. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we're -- and we would 14 be done if I didn't think over the weekend. 15 (Laughter.) 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I thought, so let's 17 get everyone to Page 14 of our Subdivision Rules, which is 18 Subdivision Standards. And this came up because of a person 19 in my precinct that asked a question and wanted to buy a 20 1-acre lot and build a house, and it really wouldn't work. 21 It has road frontage that requires subdivision platting, you 22 know, because any division would if it's less than 23 10 acres -- of a lot size less than 10 acres. But we have 24 created in our rules a situation where that -- if you're in 25 the county, you cannot have any tract sold that's less than 6-10-02 89 1 5 acres, unless you're on surface water. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Why is that? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, because you -- 4 under state rules, if you're -- if you divide a -- let's 5 take a 5-acre tract and divide it in half, 2 and a half 6 acres. That's a subdivision, and you're not exempt from 7 anything. There's no exemptions that qualify you. But 8 under our water availability, you can't do that, because you 9 have to have an average of 5 acres. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: But that's for subdivision 11 improvements. If you have an existing subdivision -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's outside of a 13 subdivision, just a piece of land, is the one that came up 14 to me. It's just a tract of land that happens to be 15 4 acres; they want to build -- divide it into either three 16 or four 1-acre lots. It's on a water system. Our language 17 is right now that if it is on surface water, they can do 18 that, but we all know at the moment there's -- you know, 19 that was kind of a direction. There's -- there is no 20 surface water in the county anywhere. So, I think we need 21 to address this. I mean, I think from a developing 22 standpoint, the larger subdivisions -- and I don't know what 23 "larger" means, necessarily. I think the acreage, you know, 24 averaging and all of that is working very well; the 25 developers don't have a problem. The problem comes on small 6-10-02 90 1 subdivisions that -- and small tracts. We've -- you know, 2 we've basically priced -- in my opinion, priced moderate- to 3 low-income people out of the real estate market in the 4 county, because you can't get anything less than 5 acres, 5 and the average price of -- you know, in my part of the 6 county is about $10,000 an acre. You can't touch a piece of 7 land now for less than $50,000, and I think that really puts 8 a burden on the -- the middle-income sector. So -- 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, now, on that specific 10 example, though, we have an exemption from the water 11 availability for maximum number of lots shall not exceed 12 five lots. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: No more than one well can be 15 drilled on any one lot. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And I thought 17 that too at first, the way I wrote it. But that exemption 18 only relieves them from -- it says there that Section 1.05 19 of the Water Availability Requirements shall not apply if -- 20 and if it's five lots. Well, Section 1.05 only regards to 21 wells; it doesn't regard to subdivision platting. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It doesn't go to the 24 average. The average lot sizes aren't addressed under that. 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: I see. 6-10-02 91 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I think, you 2 know, it's a fairly easy fix to just -- to change that 3 exemption to not be -- you know, just Water Availability 4 Requirements are not applicable if it's five lots. And I 5 think that was probably our intent. And when I started 6 reading through it, I -- I found a situation that it wasn't 7 working right, from what I had remembered that we were 8 trying to do. 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think you're right. When 10 we were working on these, I think that's where we were 11 trying to go. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- okay. Well, that 13 change is very easy. Just change the language on the 14 water -- or that provision; that you just say, under 15 Exemptions, at least certainly for that one -- actually, for 16 all those -- say, on Water Availability Requirements, Item 17 1.06, Exemptions, those exemptions apply to the Water 18 Availability Requirements as a whole. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What page are you 20 reading from? 21 JUDGE HENNEKE: Page 4. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Page 4. 23 JUDGE HENNEKE: Of the Water Availability 24 Requirements. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 6-10-02 92 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: It's the next to last page in 2 the agenda item handout. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because that would tie 4 back -- if we changed it to the whole requirements, which I 5 think was the intent originally, that ties back to our 6 Subdivision Rules with a 5-acre average, 'cause that's based 7 on Water Availability Requirements. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: I think that is a fix. And I 9 think that was our clear intent when we struggled with that, 10 was to find a way to take care of that situation. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, with that one change 12 on the Water Availability Requirements, I think we're done. 13 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. Are you prepared to 14 adopt these changes today? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only other possible 18 change -- and I'll refer everyone back, get everyone totally 19 confused, back to Page 14 of the Subdivision Rules -- is one 20 that I talked to Commissioner Baldwin about briefly. Under 21 5.01.E, Item 2, we went to a no acreage limitation for a lot 22 served by community or public water system and on-site 23 septic. We stated that it needed to be -- on-site septic 24 had to be in compliance. Commissioner Baldwin and I thought 25 it might be better to put a 1-acre limit there or a minimum 6-10-02 93 1 there instead of no acreage limit. I don't know that it 2 makes that much difference, really, because they're still 3 going to have to figure out how to comply with the O.S.S.F. 4 rules. And -- but it was just something that Commissioner 5 Baldwin and I thought -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That makes sense to 7 do that. 8 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, but if you do that, 9 though, you really probably do away with any sort of 10 apartment development. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, and that was why we 12 left it in, for townhouse/apartment-type deals. So, I don't 13 have any strong feelings one way or another. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't either. I 15 just -- I've always just been kind of uncomfortable with 16 that almost no-man's-land out there or something. It 17 just -- 18 JUDGE HENNEKE: Well, we didn't -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- didn't seem right. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: This contemplates a 21 development where we have a community water system and a 22 community wastewater system. So -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the last one. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The one -- the two is 6-10-02 94 1 septic. 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Oh, I see. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's on-site septic and 4 community water system. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It seems -- it just 6 seems like there should be something -- some limit on the 7 minimum size, to me. What would happen -- what would happen 8 if you had a community with less than a quarter-acre -- I 9 mean, real small, just the house and the yard there, and 10 then come along and the rules change. And, I don't know; to 11 me, you're kind of locking -- locking yourself into a box. 12 It just needs to be some kind of a minimum number. That's 13 just the way I feel. I mean, I don't -- I'm not going to 14 fight y'all. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Stuart? 16 MR. BARRON: To give you some guidance on it, 17 the State requires at least 1 acre for a septic and a well, 18 if they have a private well. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. But they wouldn't 20 have a well there if it's under a community water system. 21 MR. BARRON: Then it would be half an acre. 22 But I can tell you that there's lots out there that half an 23 acre is not large enough for -- for Kerr County, a septic 24 system. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And in that situation, I 6-10-02 95 1 mean, it would be -- you'd have to -- under our platting, 2 anyway, if they're going with small lots, you would have to 3 approve them before we would ever approve the plat. 4 MR. BARRON: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, Stuart's making 6 a case for some kind of a designation. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Beyond no. One or 9 half? You say that there's some that you can -- some that 10 half an acre's inadequate, right? 11 MR. BARRON: Yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What if you went with 13 something -- is there an aerobic-type system you would put 14 on a quarter acre or something like that? Is there any kind 15 of a system -- 16 MR. BARRON: It's just going to depend on how 17 big your house is, how you like your driveway, things like 18 -- when you get down that small, everything becomes -- 19 becomes a problem. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Put 1 acre back in there? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think 1 acre. What 22 do you think, Buster? One's all right with me. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, 1 acre. With those 24 two changes, I think we've talked about them probably 25 enough. I'll move approval of the revised Kerr County 6-10-02 96 1 Subdivision Rules and Regulations, with the two 2 modifications made today. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I second. 4 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 5 second by Commissioner Williams, that the Court approve the 6 revised Kerr County Subdivision Rules and Regulations as 7 amended today. Any questions or comments? If not, all in 8 favor, raise your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 13 MR. JOHNSTON: Plats that are in progress -- 14 say they have a preliminary, they're waiting for a final. 15 Does that go by these new rules? 16 JUDGE HENNEKE: They would stay under the 17 existing rules. Anybody who's already filed for a 18 preliminary would be covered under the existing rules. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I think, if 20 anything, we have a whole lot that are waiting for us to 21 make this change so they can do some small subdivisions. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Okay, very good. That's a 23 long effort. Next item is Item Number 8, consider and 24 discuss setting a date for joint budget meeting with the 25 Kerrville City Council. In my discussions with Ron 6-10-02 97 1 Patterson, he has suggested July the 10th at 4 o'clock in 2 the City Council Chamber. They will be responsible for 3 food. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Steaks. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10 o'clock? 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: 4 o'clock. July 10th at 7 4 o'clock, City Council Chamber. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner Letz, 11 second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court set a joint 12 budget meeting with the Kerrville City Council for July 10th 13 at 4 o'clock p.m. in City of Kerrville Council Chamber. Any 14 other questions or comments? If not, all in favor, raise 15 your right hand. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. Was that the 17 -- the press is mouthing that we have a workshop scheduled 18 already on that date for budget. 19 MS. VAN WINKLE: It's the third day. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: Not at 4 o'clock, we don't. 21 MS. VAN WINKLE: Well, it ends at 3:00. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: 3:00, 4:00. All in favor, 23 raise your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 6-10-02 98 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carried. Okay. The 3 next item is to consider and discuss adoption of the FY 4 '02/'03 budget workshop schedule as outlined in the budget 5 book. Very briefly, I'll tell you that I have, in light of 6 our experience over the last couple years, condensed the 7 schedule. Last year we had a lot of dead time. I think 8 that's time that's not well spent, so I've kind of put the 9 pedal to the medal to get us in and out of this. Any 10 questions or comments? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only comment that I have 12 is that -- and it may be we can, I think, address it later. 13 On the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center, we may want to 14 pull out, possibly -- or not pull out. It's going to take 15 us a little bit of time, possibly, depending on where we are 16 in the process. 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: This is really designed for 18 the maintenance part. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 20 JUDGE HENNEKE: As opposed -- I think if we 21 get ready to discuss the future of that, -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Construction, it would 23 take a workshop. 24 JUDGE HENNEKE: -- we'll have to pull that 25 out separately. 6-10-02 99 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move the schedule 3 as proposed. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 5 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion by Commissioner 6 Williams, second by Commissioner Baldwin, that the Court 7 adopt the budget workshop schedule as presented. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, you had said 9 today is the D-day to receive the requests back in? 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Correct. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Have you -- 12 JUDGE HENNEKE: I've gotten most of them. A 13 couple of elected officials have come to me and asked for an 14 extension, the County Attorney being one. I've given those, 15 but we're getting them in in good order. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is D.P.S. in yet? 17 JUDGE HENNEKE: D.P.S. is in, yes. When I 18 send out this memo with this workshop schedule, I will, as 19 always, offer to the elected officials the opportunity to 20 trade around if necessary. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. 22 JUDGE HENNEKE: Within this general 23 framework. Any other questions or comments? If not, all in 24 favor, raise your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6-10-02 100 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Is there 4 anything else we need to take up today, gentlemen? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll remind you, 6 Mr. Hartzell is here and he wants to review some things with 7 the Commissioners, one-on-one or two-on-one or whatever. 8 And, how long will that take you to do that? 9 MR. HARTZELL: As long as -- not long for me 10 to explain my part. However long you guys want to speak 11 with me. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want you for five 13 minutes right now. 14 JUDGE HENNEKE: We're adjourned. 15 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 11:17 a.m.) 16 - - - - - - - - - - 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-10-02 101 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 13th day of June, 2002. 8 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-10-02