1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, March 10, 2003 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X March 10, 2003 2 PAGE --- Visitors' Comments 4 3 --- Commissioners Comments 10 1.1 Pay Bills 12 4 1.2 Budget Amendments 14 1.3 Late Bills 19 5 1.4 Waive reading and Approve Minutes 22 1.5 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 23 6 2.1 K.E.D.F. Semi-annual report -- 7 2.2 Approve proclamation declaring May 1, 2003, as National Day of Prayer 25 8 2.3 Approve April 12, 2003, as Houston Schumacher, Jr., Day in Kerr County 28 9 2.4 Authorize County Attorney to take legal action to remedy drainage problem -- 10 2.5 Approval for Kerr County Sheriff's Department to apply for grant for LOCATER system 30 11 2.6 Accept Racial Profiling report from Sheriff 32 2.9 Advise Commissioners Court of the start of the 12 Rural Library Delivery Service, reconfirm locations for van to stop 37 13 2.15 PUBLIC HEARING on revision of plat for Lots 43 and 44A of Cypress Springs Estates, Phase 1 39 14 2.16 Approval of revision of plat for Lots 43 & 44A of Cypress Springs Estates, Phase 1 40 15 2.8 Consider Non-Financial Work Site Training Agreement with Alamo Area Development 16 Corporation, authorize County Judge to sign 41 2.7 Approve 911 unnamed road letter and cost of 17 mailing same 45 2.17 PUBLIC HEARING on revision of plat for 18 Tracts 13A, 13B, 14A & 14B of Y.O. Ranchlands 50 2.18 Approval of revision of plat for Tracts 13A, 19 13B, 14A, & 14B of Y.O. Ranchlands 51 2.10 Discuss hiring consultant(s) to assist with 20 developing renovation/construction plans for Youth Exhibit Center, approve contracts for same 52 21 2.11 Discuss setting workshop to discuss possible Maintenance Department issues 91 22 2.12 Discuss ordering study of the administration of County's OSSF rules & floodplain rules 96 23 2.13 Accept Racial Profiling report for Precinct 4 Constable's office 115 24 2.14 Discuss appointments for local representatives to Alamo Senior Advisory Committee 115 25 --- Adjourned 119 3 1 On Monday, March 10, 2003, at 9:00 a.m., a regular meeting 2 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and 7 gentlemen. I'll call to order the regular Commissioners 8 Court meeting for Monday, March the 10th. It's 9 o'clock 9 local time. Meeting was posted -- the notice of the meeting 10 was posted. At this time, I would like to introduce to you 11 a good friend of mine, Dr. Phil Tilden, who's a counselor 12 and former pastor, and if y'all would please rise and allow 13 him to say a few words for us. Dr. Phil? 14 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Please be seated. 16 At this time, anyone who has anything that they would care 17 to address the Court about on a matter that is not listed on 18 the agenda -- if you're here on a matter that is listed on 19 the agenda and you want to address the Court, we'd ask that 20 you please wait until we call that particular matter that's 21 on the agenda, and if you're interested in doing that, we 22 would ask that you fill out a public participation form 23 indicating your desire to speak. The forms are at the back 24 of the room. We're -- we're not going to bypass you if you 25 don't fill one of these out, but it helps us plan from a 3-10-03 4 1 time standpoint. But with respect to the items which are 2 not listed on the agenda, is there any citizen who wishes to 3 step forward and speak to this Court about any matter at 4 this time? Please come forward, sir. If you would, if 5 you'd identify your name -- or identify yourself for the 6 record, please. 7 MR. FARRELL: My name is Kevin Farrell. I 8 live on Primrose, and that's what I want to approach today. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, sir. This doesn't 10 relate to a matter that's on the agenda today? 11 MR. FARRELL: No, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Please. 13 MR. FARRELL: We got a problem with our road. 14 There's a lot of disabled people out there, and I'm one of 15 them; I'm a heart patient. An ambulance won't even come out 16 to our house, and they got me classified as sudden death, 17 anytime. And we did with my grandma and my dad, too. 18 There's a lot more other people out there. And when we call 19 the -- like, have to call the Sheriff's Department, it takes 20 them forever to get down our road. They don't even like 21 coming down our road at all. Ambulance, they won't come at 22 all; they tell us they'll meet us at the end of the road. 23 And we've been trying to get this thing -- something going 24 on with this road for the last five years, and I think it's 25 about time we get something done with this road. If there's 3-10-03 5 1 anything we can do. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Where is Primrose? 3 MR. FARRELL: It's off of Bear Creek Road, 4 Precinct 1. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can move the line 6 about 100 feet and you can have that if you'd like. I was 7 just trying to be nice here. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me know how I 9 can help you out. 10 MR. FARRELL: But the plat that's out there 11 for that road back there -- I guess it was in '72 when it 12 was starting to build it -- it was signed by the 13 Commissioners Court. And we were just wondering, why isn't 14 anything getting done with it? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is a 1972 platted 16 subdivision that, on the plat, it says all the roads are 17 dedicated to the county forever and ever, you know, all that 18 lawyer talk, and -- but the County Attorney's always said 19 that, you know, they can dedicate it all day long, but until 20 the Commissioners Court accepts it, then they are not a 21 county-maintained road. They are public roads, 22 non-county-maintained. That's the way it is. And we have 23 asked the County Attorney for an opinion. About two weeks 24 ago, we wrote a letter down there and asked for an opinion 25 about the county Road and Bridge Department doing work, 3-10-03 6 1 using public funds and doing work on a non-county-maintained 2 road. We're awaiting -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Awaiting that response? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. And we've had it 5 78 times from other County Attorneys on that particular 6 road, but we'll do it again. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And other roads in 8 other precincts, as well. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. We appreciate 11 you being here. Is there any other citizen that desires to 12 address the Court on any matter? Please come forward, 13 ma'am, and identify yourself for the reporter. 14 MS. ALLMON: My name is Doris Allmon, and I 15 also live out on Primrose. I am this little guy's mother. 16 And I have had to rush my mother to the end of the road with 17 a heart attack. My husband was a cancer patient, and we've 18 had to rush this one down twice with a heart problem. And 19 we pay our taxes out there. And I see -- I can't see why we 20 can't get something done. We have put out thousands of 21 dollars on that road ourselves, and there's about 9 or 11 22 families right down there at the end of Primrose where we 23 live, and most of them are elderly, and some of them are 24 handicapped. And we can't understand, with us paying our 25 taxes, why can't we get something done, too. I mean, they 3-10-03 7 1 tell us to bring our road up to standards, but then we 2 priced that, too, and it was $150,000. We can have the 3 whole road paved for that price, you know, and that's 4 nonsense. I mean, if we can get something done, we can kind 5 of help keep it up ourselves. But as it is now, when 6 there's rain or ice or snow, we are blocked in, and there's 7 only one way in and one way out. And, you know, we feel 8 like we need some kind of protection in there. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you. But 10 I think what you're going to hear, or what I have heard 11 historically from the attorneys, is that it's simply against 12 the law to spend taxpayers' money on non-county-maintained 13 roads. 14 MS. ALLMON: Does that mean we don't have to 15 pay taxes any more? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, ma'am, it does not 17 mean that, but it also means that I don't go to jail for 18 going out there doing work on your private property. I'm 19 not going to jail over something like that. It's against 20 the law. 21 MS. ALLMON: Well, that's true too, but I 22 know Sheppard Rees has been torn up, which was a good road. 23 And -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a public -- 25 that's a public-maintained road. 3-10-03 8 1 MS. ALLMON: Well, that's what I'm saying. 2 Why can't ours be public-maintained? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you. I 4 would -- you know, if -- I wish there was something we could 5 do. And the attorney is sitting back -- he's a new 6 attorney, so we can't beat on him. We'll give him a couple 7 more days before we start beating on him. But, you know, if 8 they can come up with some way, this County will do whatever 9 it can to help you folks. There's no question of that. I 10 mean, it's not that we're trying to be mean or anything. 11 And -- 12 MS. ALLMON: No, I understand that. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- there's laws that 14 we have to abide by, and that's -- and that's that. 15 MS. ALLMON: But there's so many families out 16 in there. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, ma'am. 18 MS. ALLMON: And it's growing. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Regulations read that 20 if you want the County -- to be a maintained road, that you 21 bring it up to standards and we'll take it over. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, have they 23 looked into a road district? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I sent it out there 25 many, many times, Jon. 3-10-03 9 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That seems, I mean, 2 probably the best option. Form a road district. 3 MS. ALLMON: We've tried everything. We're 4 just kind of like a dead end. And if somebody was to come 5 out and travel that road, they would know what we were 6 talking about. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I've been on it. 8 MS. ALLMON: Have you? Then you know what 9 we're up against. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Not real recently, but a year 11 or so ago, I was on it. 12 MS. ALLMON: Well, we have improved it some. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. 14 MS. ALLMON: But -- you know, and it's taken 15 a lot of money out of our pocket. And there's just maybe 16 two or three of us that are doing it. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you know what? I 18 think one of the interesting questions that's been posed 19 recently as part of our letter to the County Attorney is 20 that when the Commissioners Court adopts the plat, does it 21 not adopt the roads as well, automatically? I think that's 22 an interesting question that hopefully we'll have an answer 23 to pretty soon. 24 MS. ALLMON: Well, I hope we can come up with 25 some solution. Thank you. 3-10-03 10 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much. Is there 2 any other citizen that has anything it wants to address this 3 Court on a matter that is not on the agenda? Anybody else? 4 We'd be happy to hear from you. All right. We'll move on 5 to Commissioners' comments. Commissioner 1. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, thank you. 7 I only have one comment, and I wanted to -- probably 8 everyone knows of the passing of Don McClure. His funeral 9 services will be tomorrow at 2 p.m. over at Grimes. There's 10 a visitation this evening, I understand, there as well. You 11 know, Don probably -- it would be hard to find this out, but 12 probably is the longest -- was the longest serving peace 13 officer in the history of this county; been here just for 14 absolutely ever. You know, he comes in -- came into my 15 office and I'd brag about my governor's signed sheets up 16 there that I'm County Commissioner, and I don't know; he -- 17 he's lost more than have I hanging on the wall, he's been 18 here so long. But we wanted to remind everyone, we need to 19 pray for Polly and that family over there. And -- and I 20 would think that -- in my opinion, if you open the 21 dictionary and looked up the word "integrity," out there 22 beside it, it should say "Don McClure." He -- tremendous 23 servant to our community. And most of us know him in a way 24 that -- I mean, if you remember, he didn't even spend his 25 budget. You know, budgeted for very, very little, and 3-10-03 11 1 didn't even spend it. I never did understand how he did 2 that. I think, like, his gas and vehicle stuff came out of 3 his pocket. But he was truly a -- truly a servant to this 4 county, and served it for many, many years, and I think it 5 would be appropriate for this County to fly the flag at 6 half-mast today and tomorrow. That's all. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner 2? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My comment's brief, 9 Judge, but has to do with Item 2.9 on the agenda. The new 10 library van, which is intended to provide service to the 11 outlying areas of Kerr County, it's going to be at the front 12 door at about 9:45 for a great picture opportunity for 13 Commissioners Court, and also, you know, take this 14 opportunity to let the public know that this service is 15 beginning -- will begin very quickly, and it's intended to 16 bring library materials to the outlying areas of the county 17 for those who cannot get in to Butt-Holdsworth Library. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only -- I didn't have 20 any comments, but I do have a question for Commissioner -- 21 Commissioner 1. When did Don start his law enforcement? Do 22 you know? I know he -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Before we started 24 keeping records. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- used to be Parks and 3-10-03 12 1 Wildlife, as I recall. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, he was a Parks 3 and Wildlife guy, served in the constable position in two 4 different precincts. Does anybody know? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In the '40's or '50's -- 6 well, I know it had to be the '50's. He was a game warden 7 and good friend of my grandfather back -- way back then. 8 Amazing, amazing career. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Amazing career. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with everything 11 you said. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner 4? 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Nothing, thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Like -- like the 16 others on this Court, I would ask that we all keep the 17 McClure family in our thoughts and prayers as they work 18 their way through these troubled days ahead. Don was truly 19 a servant and a wonderful individual. He's an old-school 20 law enforcement officer, very much an old-school. Never -- 21 never raised his voice, never had to get aggressive. He had 22 a knack of making his point the right way and getting 23 compliance, and -- and just -- just truly a remarkable 24 individual. Let's get on with the business at hand. First 25 item is payment of the bills. Mr. Auditor? 3-10-03 13 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Besides -- other than the 2 list that you have, Commissioner Baldwin brought a -- an 3 item to me that he would like to discuss, I think, 4 concerning some mailouts for 911. This potential bill -- we 5 don't have a bill, but it's not -- it's not budgeted, so -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a separate agenda item, 7 though. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It goes along with 9 2.7. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: 2.7, okay. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Why don't we address that at 12 that point? I think it would be more appropriate. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That would be good. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Do I hear a motion for 15 payment of the bills as presented? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do, and I would also 17 let the general public know that this two-week period of 18 paying the everyday bills for Kerr County is 19 226,300-some-odd dollars for two weeks. Very expensive to 20 run a government. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 23 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Williams, 24 respectively, that we approve and pay the bills as 25 presented. Do I hear any discussion? 3-10-03 14 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. I notice that 2 under Health and Emergency Services, there's a payment to 3 the Hill Country Youth Ranch of $25 for birthday money, and 4 in the interest of exercising an abundance of caution, I'd 5 like to be on the record that I'm a member of the Board of 6 Directors of the Hill Country Youth Ranch, and vice 7 president, and I have a potential conflict of interest in 8 that. I won't bring that up again unless -- unless it 9 becomes necessary. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Any further 11 discussion? Being no further discussion, all those in favor 12 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 17 amendments. We have Budget Amendment Number 1. 18 Mr. Auditor? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: This amendment is to replace 20 a printer in Justice of the Peace, Precinct 3's office. The 21 bill is for $1,585.93. We need to transfer $626.63 out of 22 Capital Outlay in Nondepartmental to Capital Outlay in the 23 J.P. office. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Do I hear a motion that we 25 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 1? 3-10-03 15 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I make a motion. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 4 seconded by Commissioners Nicholson and Letz, respectively, 5 that the Court approve Budget Amendment Request Number 1. 6 Is there any further discussion? Being none, all in favor 7 of the motion, please signify by raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget 12 Amendment Request Number 2. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: This request is from my 14 office. It's to pay $92.50 for my bond. We're asking to 15 transfer from Employee Training to Bonds in my -- my 16 department. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 20 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Williams, 21 respectively, that we approve Budget Amendment Request 22 Number 2. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, 23 signify by raising your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3-10-03 16 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Budget 3 Amendment Request Number 3. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: This request is for the 198th 5 District Court. The request is to transfer $676.02 from the 6 Court-Appointed Attorney line item to the Court-Appointed 7 Services. We have a bill for that amount, for $676.02. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy, is that for 9 psychiatrists and those kinds of things? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: It's for anything that's -- 11 that's not related to an attorney. And the reason we have 12 two lines -- line items for that is for -- to report to the 13 State for -- under Senate Bill 7, for indigent defenses. 14 And, potentially, the County gets grant moneys to -- 15 reimbursement moneys for any expenditures of -- of indigent 16 defense above and beyond what our -- what our base period 17 is. In 2001, we established -- the County established -- 18 all counties in the state established a base period or base 19 amount from their own. Anything above and beyond that, we 20 get reimbursed from -- or partially reimbursed from the -- 21 from the State. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Like Indigent Health? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is -- is this 25 particular issue -- is it indigent psychiatric care? Or -- 3-10-03 17 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Let me see what this is. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And if it is, is 3 that -- will this one -- is this the kind of thing that we 4 get reimbursed for? This particular one? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, if we go over the base 6 period for the total. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: For the year. And this is 9 for -- for investigation. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When you get -- let's 11 pretend that this is a reimbursable issue here. When you 12 get -- when you get reimbursed, where does that money go? 13 Do you put it back in Court-Appointed Attorney, or does 14 it -- does it go into the Services line? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, you -- you do have -- 16 there is a stipulation in -- I think it's Senate Bill 7, 17 that you -- that you spend it for -- for court-related -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Services? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we're not getting a 21 true picture at the end of the year when we transfer all 22 this money out of the lawyers' line into there? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: This is -- I did -- this is 25 related to that, just for information, but I found a 3-10-03 18 1 paragraph in -- I think it's the Penal Code, that allows -- 2 allows counties to get reimbursed for the appeals part of 3 capital murder cases. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's about time. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: That's a hidden paragraph in 6 there that nobody knows much about. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They let you do it, 8 but they don't want you to know about it. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: But it's available, so -- I 10 have the forms. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- I note that there was 12 about $8,000 budgeted for this court-appointed services, and 13 here we're not halfway through the year, and it's been -- 14 was there a particularly exorbitant or number of expenses 15 that was incurred early in the year that caused that to be 16 drained so rapidly? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't recall, Judge, 18 specifically what -- you know, anything that's abnormal. 19 I'd just have to research that. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Do I hear a motion that 21 we approve Budget Amendment Request Number 3? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 25 seconded by Commissioners Letz and Nicholson, respectively, 3-10-03 19 1 that we approve Budget Amendment Request Number 3. Any 2 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 3 your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries. Budget 8 Amendment Request Number 4. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: This is -- this request is 10 for Road and Bridge. It's to pay the vehicle insurance -- 11 or property insurance, actually, for the lease of a -- of a 12 Caterpillar excavator, $269 for the remainder of the year. 13 We're asking a transfer from Workers Compensation into 14 Insurance. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 18 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Letz, respectively, 19 that we approve Budget Amendment Request Number 4. Any 20 discussion? All in favor, signify by raising your right 21 hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. The 24 motion carries. Do we have any late bills? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: I have two. One is for the 3-10-03 20 1 U.S. Postal Service for $625. It's out of the Tax 2 Assessor's budget. It's for Business Reply Mail permit, and 3 the annual accounting fee for -- for her office. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that including issuance of 7 a hand check? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Motion made and 10 seconded that the Court approve a late bill to United States 11 Postal Service in the amount of $625, with respect to the 12 Tax Assessor's Business Reply Mail permit, and -- and annual 13 accounting fee, I believe. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. That's -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And authorize issuance of a 16 hand check in payment of same. Any discussion? All in 17 favor, signify by raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. The last one is also 23 to the U.S. Postal Service. It's for $5,000. It's for 24 postage for the Tax Assessor/Collector, and I do need a hand 25 check for that also. 3-10-03 21 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a lot of money, 2 isn't it? A lot of stamps. Let me ask it for you, Judge. 3 Is that a budgeted amount? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: Oh, yes. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is, sir. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Where did we come up so short? 7 Was -- was there a special mailing that had to be done? It 8 would seem like that's something you just don't forget 9 about. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: We have the money. The 11 money's there in the account. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not something 13 that -- we're not transferring. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: No, this is just a late bail. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just a late bill. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I apologize for the -- for the 19 error in my thinking. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: I think we budgeted, like, 21 $12,000 to $15,000 for postage in her office. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 25 seconded by Commissioners Williams and Letz, respectively, 3-10-03 22 1 that we approve a late bill in the amount of $5,000 to 2 United States Postal Service for postage for the Tax 3 Assessor's office, and authorize issuance of a hand check. 4 Is there any further discussion? All in favor of the 5 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. And that's 10 it for that. Okay. I appreciate you straightening me out 11 there, Commissioner. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I knew what you were 13 thinking. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I was thinking it was a little 15 big. "Wait a minute, where did this come from?" 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kind of scary to 17 understand how you think there, Judge. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I have before me several sets 19 of minutes, one being the regular session of the Kerr County 20 Commissioners Court dated February -- held on February 10th, 21 another for the special session of the Court held on 22 February the 6th, and those of the special session of the 23 Court on February 24th. Do I hear a motion that we approve 24 those minutes without the necessity of reading or otherwise 25 examining the same? 3-10-03 23 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 4 seconded by Commissioners Letz and Nicholson, respectively, 5 that we approve the -- the minutes without reading or 6 examination for February the 6th, February the 10th, and 7 February 24th. Is there any discussion? All in favor of 8 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. I also have 13 before me a number of -- of reports from the J.P., Precinct 14 3; J.P., Precinct 4. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And one 16 unidentifiable one, Judge? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, this one appears to be 18 from the Treasurer. It's denominated "Kerr County Payment 19 Register, Monthly Financial Report." And we have another 20 one from the J.P., Precinct 1. Another from the County 21 Clerk's office -- I have two from them, their regular and 22 then their trust fund. Those appear to be all the monthly 23 reports that I have. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Move we accept the 25 reports as presented. 3-10-03 24 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 3 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Letz, respectively, 4 that the monthly reports as identified be approved as 5 presented. Any further discussion? All those in favor of 6 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just scratching my 12 ear. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. Didn't know whether 14 you were voting late or voting nay. Let's get to the first 15 item on the agenda. I don't see Ms. Sherry Cunningham 16 available. 17 MS. SOVIL: Commissioner Williams was going 18 to tell her, make sure she knew. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Beg pardon? 20 MS. SOVIL: You were going to remind her that 21 she was on the agenda. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, an e-mail 23 should have done the trick. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, should have. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want y'all to notice 3-10-03 25 1 Bill has new hearing aids. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not working, is 3 it? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I know how these 5 politicians are. "Huh? Darn thing just went dead." I know 6 how that works. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This one's ticking; 8 it's not going dead. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Buster, I wish -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The better to hear 11 you with, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I wish you wouldn't give away 13 all the trade secrets here. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll pass on Item 2.1. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What is K.E.D.F.? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Kerrville Economic Development 18 Foundation. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sherry serves as the 20 president of both the Chamber and the K.E.D.F. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to Item 2.2, 22 consider and discuss approving proclamation declaring May 1, 23 2003, as National Day of Prayer. Ms. Lancaster? 24 MS. LANCASTER: Yes. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Would you like to come forward 3-10-03 26 1 and be heard, please? 2 MS. LANCASTER: Well, as so many of you 3 already know, May 1st of each year -- or, I'm sorry, the 4 first Thursday of May of each year has been declared 5 National Day of Prayer since 1988, when it was amended -- 6 the law was amended by President Reagan. Before that, it 7 was just anytime during the year, and so different states 8 were having it. And for the last six years, Clergywomen, 9 Inc., has been sponsoring the -- and facilitating National 10 Day of Prayer here. And there is a proclamation that I've 11 given to our Judge that -- proclaiming this day here in Kerr 12 County. We always receive one from the President, from our 13 Governor of Texas, and then the County, the City of 14 Kerrville, and the City of Ingram, which come -- are 15 presented during the -- during the day. Also, we have asked 16 to have our -- our celebration here at the courthouse again 17 on the front lawn, as we've been doing for the last three or 18 four years now. And if y'all have any other questions? 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's a good thing 20 you're doing. 21 MS. LANCASTER: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval of the 23 proclamation as presented. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: And the observance -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Certainly. 3-10-03 27 1 JUDGE TINLEY: -- here at the courthouse, 2 11:30 to 12:30 on that date? 3 MS. LANCASTER: 11:30 to 12:30, and then also 4 from 6:00 to 7:00. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's -- 7 MS. LANCASTER: Thursday, May 1st. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 9 seconded that we approve the proclamation and authorize the 10 issuance of the front of the courthouse facilities for -- 11 for the observance of the occasion. Any further discussion? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'd just like 13 to comment, I've seen our front -- front of our courthouse, 14 a chain of people holding hands and praying all at one time 15 before, and it's just a powerful sight to see, much less the 16 prayers that are sent up. And I think it's a very, very 17 neat thing. We all need to participate in that. That's 18 all. 19 MR. TILDEN: Judge, if I may make a comment? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Certainly. 21 MR. TILDEN: The reason this has been so 22 successful is because of this young lady. She works very, 23 very hard. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Pastor Phil. Any 25 further discussions? All in favor of the motion, signify by 3-10-03 28 1 raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Next item is 6 consider and discuss approving April 12, 2003, as Houston 7 Schumacher, Jr., Day in Kerr County, Texas. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Houston Schumacher 9 died December 23rd, and was 75 years old. He's the -- a 10 third-generation grandson of the -- the west Kerr County 11 pioneer. For all of his life, Houston was very active in 12 community events for the community. He's one of those -- 13 Buster and I know Houston very well. I've known him for 21 14 years, and Buster's probably known him all of his 39 years. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kinfolk. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. And the rest 17 of you probably do, too. One of the things I liked best 18 about Houston was he was one of those guys that went about 19 helping his community in a very quiet way; very seldom was a 20 leader in any organizations or needed to hold an office. He 21 just had a heart for people and helping people, and had a 22 big impact on our community. He's going to be missed a lot. 23 I think the only office he ever held was first fire captain 24 of the Ingram Fire Department, if my information is right. 25 So, this is a proposal to declare -- oh, yes, Houston's 3-10-03 29 1 going to be honored at the -- at the Game Warden dinner with 2 a plaque, with photographs of all of his work and all that 3 sort of thing, so this will tie in with that. So, I make a 4 motion that we declare April 12, 2003, as Houston 5 Schumacher, Jr., Day. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 8 seconded by Commissioners Nicholson and Baldwin, 9 respectively, that this Court issue a proclamation declaring 10 April 12, 2003, as Houston Schumacher, Jr., Day here in Kerr 11 County. The -- the event that Commissioner Nicholson is 12 speaking of is the wild game function that's been held for a 13 number of years out there at the Youth Exhibit facility -- 14 Ag Barn, if that identifies it better for you -- and Houston 15 was very, very active with that every year. I don't know 16 how far back it goes; probably predates my coming to Kerr 17 County in 1968, but it's very fitting that he would be 18 honored on that occasion. I -- I would consider it a 19 personal honor and privilege to sign such a proclamation. 20 Any other discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 21 by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Next item of 3-10-03 30 1 business is 2.4, consider authorizing County Attorney to 2 take legal action to remedy a drainage problem. It's my 3 understanding, in talking with the County Engineer, that 4 that matter, since being placed on the agenda, appears to be 5 resolved, and there was a request that it be passed. If -- 6 if that's correct, Ms. Hardin? 7 MS. HARDIN: Yes, that's correct. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, very good. Next 9 item on the agenda is Item 2.5, consider and discuss 10 approval for Kerr County Sheriff's Department to apply for a 11 grant for a LOCATER system in conjunction with Amber Alert. 12 There he is. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Judge, how are you, sir? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As the Court knows, 16 Amber Alert all got started, we accepted and signed off that 17 we were good. The National Center of Missing and Exploited 18 Children has gotten moneys through the federal government 19 that they will provide to any law enforcement agency that's 20 responsible for investigating cases of missing children or 21 abducted children on computer, and it's a complete computer 22 with printer, scanner attached to it, all the hardware, 23 software, at no cost to the agency. That allows us to print 24 up these missing posters of the kids and that, and there's 25 no obligation to us at all. And any law enforcement agency 3-10-03 31 1 that has those duties can apply for the grants to receive 2 this one computer. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can the computer be used 4 for other purposes, or is it designated for this purpose? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's pretty well 6 designated for this purpose. It does come with other 7 software and that; it's Windows XP operating system they say 8 you can use, but the way it is and the way we'd have to have 9 it, we'd have to set up in the dispatch office anyhow, where 10 we can get this information and send it. So, it would be 11 pretty well limited to this purpose. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's it cost us next 13 year? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Nothing. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. I'll move 16 that we approve the Sheriff to go do whatever it is he wants 17 to go do here. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Apply for a grant. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Apply for a grant. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Apply for a computer. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 23 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Letz, respectively, 24 that we approve Kerr County Sheriff's application for a 25 grant for LOCATER system, in conjunction with Amber Alert. 3-10-03 32 1 Is there any further discussion? All in favor of the 2 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. Next item is 7 2.6, the Sheriff again. Consider and discuss accepting 8 Racial Profiling report for the Sheriff. It's my 9 understanding that you're required to tender us that report, 10 which by implication, I guess, implies that we're required 11 to accept it. And beyond that, I'm not sure anybody knows 12 what's supposed to happen. Correct, Sheriff? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think you're pretty 14 well correct. I know the law requires us to compile all the 15 information, tender it to Commissioners Court March 1st of 16 each year. And -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's it? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There's the report. 19 What y'all do with it, I don't know. I really don't care. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think the Court has 21 looked at it. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I can tell you 23 right now what I want to do with that. I've thought about 24 this hard, and I've been in -- been in deep prayer about 25 this. But, I mean, look at that. That is a lot of work for 3-10-03 33 1 the Sheriff's Office. That is a lot of paper. And that 2 costs the taxpayers money for absolutely nothing. Zero, 3 zilch. By law, he's supposed to bring this thing in. And, 4 you know, the -- the constables have been bringing theirs 5 in. We accept them. What do we do? Put them in the trash 6 can? So my thought is -- is that we need to send those -- 7 or, actually, call Senator Fraser and Representative 8 Hilderbran and tell them to come get their paper, and we 9 will bill them for -- what is that, two or three reams of 10 paper right there, just for your office? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's at least a couple 12 of -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We need to send the 14 Senator and the State Representative a bill for us having to 15 go through this. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think go one step 17 further; do a resolution that they repeal the law. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree a hundred 19 percent. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Not only are we 21 incurring the cost of making the reports, but it's slowing 22 down our law enforcement officers. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: They can't make a 25 stop now and say, "Slow down a little bit and go away." 3-10-03 34 1 They got to fill out some paperwork, and they're -- they're 2 doing that instead of somewhere else doing what we pay them 3 to do. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, under the new 5 law -- or under this law. Of course, we're saved from a lot 6 of the other reporting information that has to be done 7 because we have video cameras in all our patrol cars, but it 8 does create a lot more work all during the year, because any 9 contact that an officer has with a pedestrian or a vehicle, 10 okay, any contact has to be documented. You have to have 11 the race, sex, ethnic origin, everything of that person you 12 contacted, and all that information then has to be entered 13 into a computer, and then the computer, at the end of the 14 year, will print out this when you ask for it. And just to 15 give you an example, like, on this very first one -- and 16 this is every single contact we ever have during the year. 17 This first one says that we contact -- on January 13th, 18 2002, at 5:24 p.m., in the central area of our county, which 19 was I-10 westbound before Harper Road, we contacted a white 20 female. We did not search her vehicle. We did issue her a 21 citation. And she was -- let's see. We did not find any 22 contraband. And she was driving a Lincoln passenger car 23 with four doors, and no search of the car was done either. 24 And that is the type of information we are required to keep 25 now on every single person we come in contact with. 3-10-03 35 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I will put -- I will work 2 on a resolution; I'll get with you, Rusty, with some of the 3 details. It's a waste of money, and I would recommend that 4 we keep all this stuff in one stack and send it to Senator 5 Fraser and let Representative Hilderbran know -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They need to come get 7 it. They need to spend their own gas to come get these 8 things. We don't want to take them up there to them at more 9 expense. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think we ought to 11 also note that, in reviewing these various reports, it 12 occurs to me that I've seen in the newspapers that in some 13 places, that there's indication that there may be some 14 targeting of certain groups. And these reports -- none of 15 these reports raise any red flag about targeting, so we -- 16 it's not like we're gathering data to solve a problem we've 17 got. We've just gathering data for the sake of gathering 18 data. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With no express 20 purpose. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah, right. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What it shows is we had 23 2,058 contacts that were required to be reported on. And, 24 of course, 85 percent of those contacts were with white 25 subjects, and it goes right along with the popularity (sic). 3-10-03 36 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Targeting old, white 2 men? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about old, fat, 4 white men? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Let me see if I can find 6 the name "Buster Baldwin." I know there's a lot of contacts 7 in here, Buster. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: There's no names in there, 9 Buster. You're safe. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But there's your report. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move we accept the 12 Sheriff's report and file it appropriately. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Third. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 16 seconded by Commissioners Williams and Nicholson, 17 respectively, that we accept the Sheriff's Racial Profile 18 report and file the same accordingly. Any further 19 discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would -- no, go ahead. 21 I was going to say I'd refuse to accept it, based on the 22 waste of time, but I don't know that we have -- I mean, why 23 do we have to accept it? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, what feeble -- 25 feeble wording there is in the bill says we have to accept 3-10-03 37 1 it. Doesn't say what to do with it. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to accept. I 3 think our feelings are clear. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further discussion? All 5 in favor, signify by raising your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I assume that Commissioner 10 Letz, based on his comments, is going to be working on a 11 resolution to present to the Court at a later meeting 12 addressing this issue, and we'll look forward to that. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can we do 2.9, Judge? 14 Go out and have our picture made? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. If there's no 16 objection, Chair will move to Item 2.9, item of advice to 17 the Commissioners Court of the start of the Rural Library 18 Delivery Service and reconfirm locations for service van 19 stops in various precincts. Commissioner Williams. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The agenda item is 21 what it says, Judge, and the van is outside for the Court to 22 go take a quick look at and have a Kodak moment. I'd like 23 to get from Commissioner 4 some affirmation of where you'd 24 like that van to stop. I believe it was suggested that 25 maybe it would stop at the Lake Ingram -- that shopping 3-10-03 38 1 center across, but if you want it to go out to Hunt Store or 2 someplace else, I need to know that as well. Commissioners 3 1 and 3 have indicated they didn't have a location, but if 4 they have chosen to rethink that, that's fine too. We're 5 going to have it stop in at least one location in Center 6 Point, and maybe two. So, if you'd like to check on that, 7 please, and let me know, appreciate it. In the meantime, 8 the van's outside for you to take a quick look at it. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: We'd welcome you citizens to 10 take a look-see also. Some of you may live out in the 11 outlying area. Just a minute. Hold on, guys. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: What we'll do at this point is 15 go ahead and take our morning recess, and we'll reconvene at 16 10 o'clock and take up the timed items that are set for 17 10 o'clock. So, we'll stand in recess until 10 o'clock. 18 (Recess taken from 9:48 a.m. to 10:05 a.m.) 19 - - - - - - - - - - 20 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll reconvene the -- the 21 regular Commissioners Court meeting we commenced at 9 a.m. 22 on March the 10th. We were in recess. I apologize for 23 getting started back late; we had to run down the bus. It 24 was not quite where it was supposed to have been, but all is 25 well that ends well; we found it. I will now recess the 3-10-03 39 1 regular Commissioners Court meeting and open a public 2 hearing scheduled for 10 a.m. this morning, that being Item 3 2.15 on the addendum, that being a public hearing on the 4 revision of plat for Lots 43 and 44A of Cypress Springs 5 Estates, Phase 1. 6 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:06 a.m., and a public hearing 7 was held in open court, as follows:) 8 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I note that there was notice 10 published in the local newspaper that the public hearing 11 would be held on this day at 10 a.m. Is there any -- any 12 member of the public that desires to be heard on the public 13 hearing? Any member of the public that desires to be heard 14 on the public hearing on the revision of plats for Lots 43 15 and 44A of Cypress Springs Estates, Phase 1? 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: There being none, I will close 18 the public hearing, and I will reconvene the Commissioners 19 Court meeting and move to Item 2.16, which is the 20 consideration and discussion for approval of the revision 21 of plat for Lots 43 and 44A of Cypress Springs Estates, 22 Phase 1. 23 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:07 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 24 meeting was reopened.) 25 - - - - - - - - - - 3-10-03 40 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Is Mr. Johnston here? Mr. 2 Voelkel? 3 MR. VOELKEL: Good morning. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning. 5 MR. VOELKEL: I have a request for this 6 morning on that item. The owner of the property is an 7 out-of-towner, and we had to send off the films for him to 8 sign. Of course, we have a bunch of other signatures to 9 get, too. In that process, the company that was shipping it 10 back has lost our film copies, so we do not have those here 11 this morning. I have talked to the owner. What we are 12 requesting is that if we could maybe table the approval 13 until the next meeting, I would prefer to come back to court 14 with the films all signed before we do the approval. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I assume no one here on the 16 Court has any objection to that. We've had the public 17 hearing, so we've got that already taken care of. We will 18 just pass consideration of Item 2.16, if there is no 19 objection from anybody on the Court. 20 MR. VOELKEL: Thank you, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Thank you, Mr. 22 Voelkel. Appreciate that. We will now recess the 23 Commissioners Court meeting and we will convene a public 24 hearing -- well, no, we can't do that yet, 'cause we're -- 25 that's set for 10:15. We will -- we will reconvene the 3-10-03 41 1 Commissioners Court meeting, and let's go back to -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Gaylyn Dieringer's 3 here on 2.8, Judge. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 2.8, consider, discuss, 5 and take appropriate action on a Non-Financial Work Site 6 Training Agreement between Kerr County and Alamo Area 7 Development Corporation, and authorize County Judge to sign 8 the same. Commissioner Williams. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Members of the Court, 10 this is something we've done before, and I'll let Gaylyn 11 explain it to you. It's very simple. We get the 12 possibility of some labor for free, I believe. Is that 13 correct, Gaylyn? 14 MS. DIERINGER: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if you'd be so 16 good as to explain it to the Court. 17 MS. DIERINGER: Good morning. My name is 18 Gaylyn Dieringer, manager of the Texas Workforce Center. 19 Basically, you have a contract or an agreement with us 20 already, and we're just amending two of the items. First of 21 all, the first amendment is for both covering Food Stamp 22 E & T. and -- Food Stamp Employment and Training and the 23 Choices program, and they're both welfare programs. This 24 agreement allows people who receive food stamp and cash 25 assistance to volunteer for Kerr County up to 30 hours per 3-10-03 42 1 week for three months. The goal of this program is to 2 provide hands-on experience. And then the second is, we now 3 have insurance, sort of like workmen's comp. It's called 4 special risk accidental insurance policy. And, basically, 5 that is it. They volunteer to work for you. They're 6 working off their welfare dollar. We cover them if they get 7 hurt. The only thing we need for y'all to do is supervise, 8 sign a time sheet, and that is it. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Any particular 10 restrictions as to the type of work that they can be engaged 11 in? 12 MS. DIERINGER: No. No. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. We provide the 14 supervision and that's the end of it; is that correct? 15 MS. DIERINGER: Right. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: What about the reporting 17 requirements under this program? 18 MS. DIERINGER: What will happen is the 19 supervisor -- let's just say it's at the Exhibit Center. 20 They will report to them, work 30 hours a week, and they 21 just sign a time sheet, and then the customer will return 22 the time sheet to us. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: And then you folks at the 24 Workforce Commission will take care of the -- of the other 25 reporting requirements -- 3-10-03 43 1 MS. DIERINGER: Right. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that may be required under 3 the program? 4 MS. DIERINGER: Right. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There is no -- no 7 compensation? 8 MS. DIERINGER: No. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No Social Security? 10 MS. DIERINGER: No. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No worker's comp? 12 MS. DIERINGER: No. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing? 14 MS. DIERINGER: Right. Basically, they go to 15 work or they lose their welfare dollar. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are we not already -- is 18 there a program similar to this already in place? 19 MS. DIERINGER: Right. This -- y'all already 20 signed it. It's just we're amending two of the items. The 21 first time I came in, we didn't have the workmen's comp 22 insurance. Now we do. Now we have two programs, Food Stamp 23 and Employment Training, and the other one is the Choices 24 program, and that is the cash dollar. So, they're going to 25 be working for their food stamps and working for their cash 3-10-03 44 1 assistance. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think we can 4 say that loud enough. These people are paying the public 5 back for their welfare -- 6 MS. DIERINGER: Right. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- things. And 8 welfare-to-work the is the only way. That's the American 9 way. God bless America. (Laughter.) 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I would move 11 that the Court approve the Non-Financial Work Site Training 12 Agreement between Kerr County and the Alamo Area Development 13 Corporation as presented, authorize County Judge to sign 14 same. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 17 seconded by Commissioners Williams and Letz, respectively, 18 that the Court approve the Non-Financial Work Site Training 19 Agreement between Kerr County and Alamo Area Development 20 Corporation and authorize County Judge to sign the same. Is 21 there any further discussion? All in favor of the motion, 22 signify by raising your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 3-10-03 45 1 JUDGE HENNEKE: Motion carries. 2 MS. DIERINGER: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Gaylyn. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We could get number 10 6 in between now and 10:15 couldn't we? That was a joke, 7 guys. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How about 7? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll move to Item -- we can 10 get 7 in. Item 2.7, consider and discuss approving 911 11 unnamed road letter and cost of mailing of the same. 12 Commissioner Baldwin. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. And it's 14 going to take me about seven or eight minutes just to 15 introduce Mr. Bullock. As you know, we've been talking 16 about -- more and more about the 911 program moving in a -- 17 everybody moving in one direction for the first time that 18 I've -- that I can recall, and this is -- this is another 19 part of the machine moving forward. As you can see here, 20 we're going to approve the -- the letter that Mr. Bullock 21 has brought forward. We're also going to talk about the 22 cost of mailing. And I think, in our backup -- and I'm 23 going to get to you in just a second -- in our backup, we 24 were talking about around $1,000 to get this mailout. Well, 25 this program is moving so fast and things are changing so 3-10-03 46 1 fast, we're not going to ask for $1,000 this morning; we're 2 going to ask for $300. Do you like us now? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I knew you would. 5 This is Jim Bullock, as you know, the Kerr County address 6 coordinator. Jim? 7 MR. BULLOCK: Good morning. You have with 8 you -- or in front of you a sample of the letter that we're 9 proposing to mail out to all these people on the unnamed 10 roads. And the $300 that was mentioned would be enough to 11 cover the postage, the letterheads and envelopes that would 12 be needed for these mailings. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is the issue that 14 Tommy stood up and tried to address at the beginning of our 15 meeting, and I think what he's going -- what he was going to 16 say is that we move forward with our mailing, be billed, and 17 pay the bill at that point, is what he was saying. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I clearly think we need 19 to do it. I have a real -- one minor comment on the letter. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm shocked. 21 (Laughter.) 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's just that -- and, 23 you know, maybe I'm being picky or maybe I'm reading it 24 different than other people, but on the second paragraph, 25 fourth line, the second word, "present," it seems like an 3-10-03 47 1 odd word there. 2 MR. AMERINE: Say again, sir? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would say, "provide 4 agreed upon..." Make it real clear what we're asking them 5 to do. And, you know, just a -- and the other thing is 6 that -- and I'm sure y'all would do this anyway, but provide 7 the Commissioners with a -- a list -- we don't need copies 8 of the letter, but just a list of who the letter's going out 9 to. 10 MR. BULLOCK: Yeah, there will be a list of 11 the unnamed roads and the people on those roads that will be 12 in your baskets today -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 14 MR. BULLOCK: -- that 911 provided me. I 15 think it was Friday that I got those. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Super. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The only -- the only comment I 18 would make, primarily for grammatical purposes, in the 19 second line, Paragraph 2, the last word, "see." Possibly, 20 in lieu of "see," put in "specified" or "set forth," either 21 one of those. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the reason we 23 pay these lawyers. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I want you to get your money's 25 worth, Buster. 3-10-03 48 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So there's two changes 2 in the verbiage of the letter? What -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: "Specified," I think, is 4 probably -- would be the better word, rather than "see." 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about in place of 6 "present" or "present"? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: "Provide." 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: "Provide"? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we're moving -- this 10 is great. And also, I mean, Buster, are you sure we need 11 $300 for this? Well, we're not going to pay till we get the 12 bill. As I understand, the -- the unnamed road list is -- 13 has been cleared up over the weekend by the hard work of 14 911, for the most part. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's exactly 16 right. It's cut down from $1,000 to $300. That's -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it could even be 18 going lower. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You'll have to take it 20 up with these guys here. I'm just -- all I know is what's 21 being presented before us today. 22 MR. BULLOCK: It's going to be approximately 23 150 letters to be mailed out. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Under 50 bucks. 3-10-03 49 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, anyway, whatever the 2 amount is, we'll pay it when it comes in. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 4 MR. BULLOCK: Well, the postage will be 5 almost $200 for that. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't get in an 7 argument with these guys. I'll take care of them. 8 (Laughter.) 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They're going to be 10 concerned with the way you trim your beard and all that 11 before it's over with if you let them. I'll take care of 12 that. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Stand by. I move 15 that -- that we approve the unnamed road letter with those 16 two changes specified, and approve that Mr. Bullock do the 17 mailouts at his earliest convenience -- or the scheduled 18 time. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 21 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Letz, respectively, 22 that the Court approve the 911 unnamed road letter and 23 authorize the mailout by the address coordinator. Is there 24 any further discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 25 by raising your right hand. 3-10-03 50 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. We will 5 now recess the Commissioners Court meeting and open a public 6 hearing set for 10:15, the public hearing being on the 7 revision of the plat for Tracts 13A, 13B, 14A, and 14B of 8 the Y.O. Ranchlands. 9 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:19 a.m., and a public hearing 10 was held in open court, as follows:) 11 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the -- 13 I would note that -- that notice of the public hearing was 14 running in the local daily newspaper, specifying the public 15 hearing was to be held before the Court on this date at 16 10:15 a.m. Is there any member of the public that wishes to 17 be heard on that particular item? Again, is there any 18 member of the public wishing to be heard on the revision of 19 plat for Tracts 13A, 13B, 14A, and 14B of the Y.O. 20 Ranchlands? 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: There being no member of the 23 public indicating a desire to be heard, we'll close the 24 public hearing, and we'll now reconvene the Commissioners 25 Court meeting and move to Item 2.17. 3-10-03 51 1 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:20 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 2 meeting was reopened.) 3 - - - - - - - - - - 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Consider and discuss approval 5 of the revision of plat for Tracts 13A, 13B, 14A, and 14B of 6 the Y.O. Ranchlands. Mr. Voelkel again. 7 MR. VOELKEL: This one I have back, so we're 8 in good shape there. I'm here to answer any questions. 9 Just to refresh your memory, this was -- this plat was 10 presented under the alternate platting process, which is a 11 combination of lots on a revision, and what we've done is 12 take four tracts at the Y.O. Ranchlands, pretty large 13 acreage tracts, and combine those into two tracts. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Combining large 15 tracts -- or smaller tracts into larger tracts is something 16 that we want to encourage. I don't see any problem with 17 this or any reason not to approve it. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you so move? 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I make a motion we 20 approve it. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 23 seconded that the Court approve the revision of the plat for 24 Tracts 13A, 13B, 14A, and 14B of the Y.O. Ranchlands as 25 presented by Mr. Voelkel. Is there any further discussion? 3-10-03 52 1 I assume that carries with it the authorization for me to 2 sign it. Any further discussion? Being none, all in favor 3 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. We'll now 8 move to Item 2.10, which also is a timed item that got run 9 over on top of, and I apologize for that, gentlemen. Item 10 2.10 is consider and discuss hiring consultants to assist 11 with helping develop renovation/construction plans for the 12 Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center and approving the 13 contracts for the same. Commissioner Letz. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the agenda 15 based on our last meeting, when we asked Huser Construction 16 and DRG Architects to come up with a plan for us in writing 17 with some costs attributed to it, and they've done that, so 18 I'll turn it over to Wayne Gondeck to present it to us and 19 open the discussion. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 21 MR. GONDECK: Judge, Commissioners, I do 22 appreciate y'all making it somewhat time-specific. I always 23 hate to burden the Court with having to do that. 24 Fortunately, my time frame did get a little bit loosened up 25 on me today, so if y'all need to discuss this at further 3-10-03 53 1 length, again, that's -- that's your prerogative, and please 2 don't feel like you have to rush through this on my account. 3 I did try to forward to you, and I hope that you have in 4 your booklets there, two documents. One, our letter of 5 March 5th discussing a proposal from Huser/Adler 6 design/build group with our recommendations, and two, the 7 actual design/build services proposal from Huser/Adler dated 8 the same date discussing the services which they would 9 propose for the Youth Exhibit Center. 10 What that does outline -- and I will go back 11 over theirs to begin with -- are the several steps that they 12 would take, or propose to take to get to the point of having 13 an actual schematic design of the facility and a hard cost, 14 or a guaranteed maximum cost of the project, so that you can 15 decide what you're going to do beyond that point, and mainly 16 what the final cost of the project will be and how you're 17 going to fund that project. At this point, and from the 18 last meeting, it is our understanding that, one, there was 19 not a project funding source identified, and two, there was 20 not a budget identified. So, within this design/build 21 services proposal, those two items were the two keys that 22 were going to be searched out and hopefully identified 23 through this process, was, one, the final scope of the -- 24 the project, and two, the final budget for the project. 25 To get to that point, though, there was going 3-10-03 54 1 to be the request from the design and construction 2 professionals for some level of commitment as to the fees 3 being paid to the service providers for those services. And 4 on those two documents in front of you, for the design/build 5 proposal, there was a fee proposal in there for that, and 6 that was $28,600. And for the independent consulting 7 architect, which is DRG, there was a fee proposal of $6,000. 8 And I can tell you on ours, what that proposal was is 9 basically a fixed-fee proposal based on the -- the 10 Huser/Adler schedule to have the guaranteed maximum cost, I 11 guess, provided within basically three months from this 12 date, broken down into three equal parts of $2,000 a month, 13 so that we can be retained on a regular basis, available at 14 any time, and be present, you know, at all the meetings, 15 both at Commissioners Court, all the workshops, and also 16 working with them, you know, during that period of time. 17 So, ours would be a fixed, flat-rate fee, and then I will 18 allow them to discuss in more detail their actual proposal. 19 We have looked at this. From our 20 perspective, you know, looking at it from -- you know, as 21 your consultant or your agent for the level of services that 22 they are proposing to provide, it's a reasonable fee. Do 23 you want to commit that much money up front on this project? 24 That's back on your side of the table. I can't answer that, 25 you know, as to -- to whether or not you want to commit that 3-10-03 55 1 much money at this time to this project. But for the 2 services and to have hard costs, a guaranteed maximum price 3 at the end of this process, it is reasonable. So, I -- at 4 that point -- or this point, I'd ask that -- you know, do 5 you have any questions? And where we could go from here -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: We're not going to get the 7 answers we need to have, are we, Mr. Gondeck, without 8 spending some money to get those alternatives and those 9 specific items that this would provide? 10 MR. GONDECK: Judge, I absolutely do not 11 believe you're going to get to that point unless you do 12 expend some funds or commit to some funds to get there. I 13 mean, that's my opinion. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't look at me. 15 (Laughter.) Help me with those numbers again. It appears 16 that your fee is $6,000? 17 MR. GONDECK: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And what was that 19 other? $28,600? Or -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Six -- 21 MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $28,600, and that was 23 Mr. Huser? 24 MR. GONDECK: That was the Huser/Adler 25 design/build services. 3-10-03 56 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, that's the 2 architect as well as the -- 3 MR. GONDECK: The architect and the 4 construction. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. So -- 6 MR. GONDECK: Did y'all want me to explain 7 some breakdown in that? 8 MR. ADLER: You can or I can. I mean, I'll 9 be happy to answer questions as required. Go ahead; you're 10 doing a good job. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you want us to say 12 that we -- we have $34,600 sitting here on the table before 13 y'all will do any -- I mean, is that what I'm understanding 14 you to say? 15 MR. GONDECK: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but that's not -- I 17 mean, I'm hearing that that's to get us a -- the 18 guaranteed -- get us to the point of having a guaranteed 19 maximum. I mean, we could probably spend less than that and 20 get less than that, than a guaranteed maximum. We could -- 21 to me, that seems like a lot of money to spend initially, 22 but I don't have a problem spending, you know, certainly a 23 part of that to get something good enough that we can go to 24 grants or something -- go forward, trying to figure out how 25 we're going to fund it. I mean, we need to get -- to me, 3-10-03 57 1 we're -- we can get somewhere between where we are today and 2 guaranteed maximum price. We don't -- you know, we need to 3 be somewhere in there. We don't need to be at the end of 4 that in the timeline right now. I think we need to have 5 enough that we can go with a plan to go out and see how 6 we're going to raise the money to do it. And maybe we 7 can't. I mean, that's really -- I'm probably talking to 8 either Wayne or Steve or Bill as to, is there a lesser 9 amount that we can -- could pay and get a lesser product? 10 MR. GONDECK: Maybe I should let them talk 11 about the level of service that they're offering to provide 12 first, and then we could sort of rehash what levels of 13 service could be provided. That's probably a good way to 14 approach that. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I've got two questions, if I 16 might. And I don't know whether these are appropriate for 17 you, Mr. Gondeck, or whether or not they're for Mr. Huser 18 and the architect that he's teamed with. Number one, it is 19 my understanding, from reading the information presented to 20 us at this point, that if we expend that sum of money, the 21 amount that we expend for the benefit of the design/build 22 team, that will apply towards the ultimate cost of that if 23 we go forward with that design/build team on that project. 24 And, secondly -- I want that confirmed, one. Secondly, if 25 we expend that sum of money, whatever is -- is provided to 3-10-03 58 1 us in connection with that effectively becomes our property 2 if we -- effectively bought and paid for if we don't go 3 forward with it. And that's also my understanding, and I 4 just merely want that confirmed or not confirmed. I don't 5 know whether that's for you or for these gentlemen, but -- 6 MR. GONDECK: As far as the second question, 7 I'll let them specifically answer that. The first question 8 is in the proposal, as far as the actual fees that were -- 9 will be included in that guaranteed maximum cost, as far as 10 being included in that second part, that that will be part 11 of that project. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 13 MR. GONDECK: But I'll turn it over to Alan 14 and Steve and let them present it to you, possibly with some 15 other options that they may have. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Gondeck. 17 Welcome, gentlemen. 18 MR. ADLER: Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. 19 I think I can probably throw a little light. I am Alan 20 Adler, the architect with Huser/Adler, and I appreciate the 21 audience today. First, I guess the answer to that question 22 is, you buy and pay for the services and the -- and the 23 product is yours. Typically, the architect owns the 24 drawings, but they're not for anybody else; they're yours. 25 I mean, that's the way it works. Nothing's different; it's 3-10-03 59 1 all very typical A.I.A. type standard agreement. And 2 absolutely, the services do accrue toward the overall fee. 3 It is, in fact, the first phase, which is why it is -- 4 that's why you can generate a GMP from it, because it's a 5 real first phase. The way -- the way we -- and this is to 6 answer your question, Mr. Letz. The way we went about this 7 was we -- we know that we need to establish some sort of 8 range on the budget before we can sort of assess what we're 9 doing, and we -- and that's -- so we put something less than 10 what it was before and what we gleaned from the meeting the 11 last time, which was probably in the range of a million to 12 two million, two, but maybe fluctuate, as in the original 13 criteria, 25 percent, which leaves it pretty broad, but it 14 -- but it definitely doesn't narrow it. I mean, doesn't 15 allow you to go higher -- too much higher and too much 16 lower, because we can't do anything if we don't spend some 17 of that. 18 What we also did was, we -- we introduced, as 19 the starting criteria for the design, the -- the same design 20 criteria package that Wayne put together and that all of 21 y'all had talked about and we had talked about with you. I 22 mean, we had -- we understood that very well. And that's 23 what we want to try and do, give you as much as possible. 24 Absolutely as much as possible. We know we don't have the 25 money to do everything, but we're going to have to figure 3-10-03 60 1 out how to do that. The professional services that -- that 2 are required to take that same program and to get it to a 3 GMP, I would say, is on Page 3. "Professional fees for this 4 phase of the work include the following:" The program 5 evaluation, confirmation, and modification; I see that as 6 probably three separate meetings. This is apart from what 7 we do with our -- when we draw and everything else. First 8 meeting would say -- and let me say right here that the 9 schedule we're saying is still in line with the original 10 goal, which was to be completed by January of next year, so 11 that the livestock show in January would be available and 12 all that. That's -- I mean, you know, that's -- I 13 understand -- understand what that is, but that's where -- 14 that's how we couched it. 15 So, what we first want to do is evaluate the 16 program -- the written program in terms of the new budget 17 criteria and the budget being part of that. I see that 18 probably in a special session, perhaps next week or whenever 19 y'all think it's the right answer for the -- to kick this 20 off. In deference to that schedule, that's when I started. 21 Then we get a pile of information that we can -- we can 22 start to design to and work on, and we'll develop multiple 23 schemes in sketch form that begin to answer the questions. 24 We'll have cost evaluations at that time, too. Also, before 25 we can do that, we're going to need to do field work. We're 3-10-03 61 1 going to get the survey. We've got to update it; we have to 2 have the canvass of information accurate. Otherwise, we 3 can't give you accurate information. So -- so -- and we'll 4 have to do field work and we'll have to do as-built drawings 5 to some degree to know how much demolition and how much to 6 design to and what -- you know. So, we have to -- we have 7 to do some front-end work, and then we have to have these 8 meetings. 9 I see having the meeting, then doing those 10 sketches, then come back, we have another meeting and we 11 talk about it, and we get all clear about -- we give you 12 ideas and dollars and all of that, and then we come back 13 with some sort of direction. And I know -- for instance, I 14 know that we want a separate exhibit center, but we can't 15 afford it. We'll have to talk about that. I mean, there's 16 a lot of pieces to this that I know need discussion, so 17 we'll put all of that, you know, in front of you, get some 18 direction priorities, and then we'll come back with a 19 design. We'll take all of that, we'll find multiple 20 solutions, and -- and put one solution on the table. And 21 it's at that time that Huser will put the hard GMP to it, so 22 that when we complete that, we'll have our last meeting to 23 say, "This is what we talked about doing," and we'll 24 probably have a couple of alternates. And I'll use parking 25 as an example. Maybe we want to say, you know, let's add a 3-10-03 62 1 few extra spaces or clean up what we've got, and see if we 2 want to afford that -- can afford that later on. But the 3 end result is a -- is it takes that process to get there. 4 And it's an interactive process. It's a design process. 5 It's field surveys. And -- and we -- we looked at it. 6 And -- and I know -- I know dollars are important to you, 7 and I don't know any other way to get to that; from A to B, 8 I mean. That's how -- that's what it takes. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Alan, as I see here, you 10 know, the first meeting pretty much gets us to what the 11 Commissioners Court want, and y'all to determine truly what 12 we have. That's kind of -- 13 MR. ADLER: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I can see that 15 that's a big hurdle at that point, because if the Court -- 16 and that's where I would think we need some sort of a cost 17 breakdown to get to that point. Because if the Court can't 18 -- if we can't agree, there's no point in spending much more 19 time on this project for a while. So I think that -- you 20 know, to me, I'd like to find out what it's going to cost 21 for us -- for you to sit down with the Court and let us kind 22 of hash out whatever -- if we can agree on what we want out 23 there. And, at the same time, I think we do need to get a 24 -- you know, pretty much to go out there, do some sort of 25 as-built drawings. I think those are going to be critical 3-10-03 63 1 -- or not drawings. As-built -- you know, what we have out 2 there. Because that's going to be critical, long-term, for 3 the Court to have, you know, if we come to an agreement. 4 You know, or if we don't come to an agreement as to exactly 5 what to do, that's kind of -- really, that's a little bit 6 further than what we did on the asbestos survey, trying to 7 determine really what the situation of that facility is, you 8 know, from a professional standpoint. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One of things I see 10 in here that is a question that we raised before among us, 11 and we were unable to come up with an affirmative answer, 12 has to do with verification of existing conditions. What is 13 usable, what can be converted, what needs to come down, and 14 so forth. And I see that in your proposal; am I correct? 15 MR. ADLER: Yes, you do. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. And so that 17 everyone -- if we go this route, you will be able to tell us 18 if there is anything salvageable about that facility that we 19 have effectually called exhibit hall or ag barn or pig barn 20 or whatever it is? 21 MR. ADLER: That's correct. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And how much of it 23 goes away, how much of it can be salvaged, if any? 24 MR. ADLER: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And/or used in some 3-10-03 64 1 other type of facility? 2 MR. ADLER: Right. Right. We're going to 3 uncover all of the options, all financial benefits, the 4 two-for-ones, if you will, which are -- sometimes make 5 themselves obvious after you get into it. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that also -- 7 Alan, would that also include taking another look at what 8 needs to be done to the arena to make certain that it meets 9 current standards and codes? 10 MR. ADLER: Yes, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And is brought up to 12 speed so that it is a safe venue for animals and people? 13 MR. ADLER: Yes, sir, that is part of it. 14 That was part of the original program, and that -- that I 15 have -- recognize as an important piece to this, too. And 16 it is part of it. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The arena is unsafe? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Electrical parts of 20 it, I think, are. 21 MR. ADLER: And the ventilation. You know, I 22 think all those points are well-taken. Accessibility, all 23 that. And that will be sort of a constant in your budget. 24 I mean, you sort of start there, and then you work to all 25 the other hopeful scopes that we can include. But, 3-10-03 65 1 answering your question, that would mean, I think, that you 2 would say on that Page 3 that you would want everything but 3 Number 5. Is that how you might look at it, Wayne? 4 MR. GONDECK: Well, but I'm -- sometimes I -- 5 I get to this dangerous point where I think out loud, 6 especially with the stenographer out here. 7 MR. ADLER: Right. 8 MR. GONDECK: And a camcorder. (Laughter.) 9 Give me two minutes to think out loud. This is a proposal, 10 and basically outlines the services. Within the Part 1 11 agreement, which is a standard A.I.A. form, it has the -- 12 the terms of actually termination. In other words, it has 13 the availability of allowing you to terminate at several 14 points, both for convenience and for cost. So, as we're 15 moving through this, it does allow you to terminate the 16 contract at several points. I think -- let me make -- if I 17 could, make a few comments. If we're going to do it right, 18 and if you choose to do it the right way, this is probably 19 the comprehensive way to get to the point that you really 20 want to be at. 21 And I don't mean to say that if you don't 22 choose to do it this way, that you're doing it wrong, but to 23 get to the point that you've stated that you want to be at, 24 then this is probably a good way to get there. However, if 25 you don't have the resources to get there, you may have to 3-10-03 66 1 choose another way. And I'm talking about dollars and 2 cents-wise. So, this is -- is probably a very sensible way 3 to get there if you have the resources. But as you go 4 through this process, you may want to have an out clause 5 within the contract to say, okay, we got to this point. We 6 may see, like you said, Commissioner Letz, we're not going 7 to get there; we're not going to be able to agree. We can't 8 get through the first, you know, step here of programming. 9 You know, can we just tell y'all, "Go away; we don't want to 10 spend any more money in this process, and we're going to 11 have to shelve this thing for a couple years," and -- or, 12 you know, four years -- no innuendoes there -- eight years, 13 whatever, and come back to it at another time. 14 But I think, in -- in drafting up the final 15 agreement, maybe that's the way we should proceed on this, 16 is that we should break down this fee structure a little bit 17 farther to -- to make it succinct in each of these steps, or 18 a process to assign a value, either percentage-wise or 19 dollar-wise, as to how to deal with this. I would ask, on 20 my part, if we're not going to be sticking to the schedule, 21 that maybe I do mine on an hourly basis, rather than on a 22 fixed-fee basis, because I'm going to be tagging along based 23 on how long it takes the Huser/Adler group to do this, and 24 to just be available based on their process. Because, you 25 know, by the statute, I'm supposed to be involved in 3-10-03 67 1 overseeing this, and as y'all deal with this. And that way 2 I don't have to be -- you know, you don't have to be paying 3 me if nothing's going on. 4 So, maybe we could do it that way, rather 5 than just a -- a fee that -- you know, paying me on a 6 monthly basis forever. No, that doesn't make any sense. 7 But maybe just on an hourly rate, versus, you know, some 8 obscure number for every month. But if that sounds 9 appropriate, maybe that's the way we need to proceed on 10 this, because the steps are here to get where you need to 11 be. But if the dollars are maybe not right now, because you 12 don't know if you want to go all of the way through this 13 process, then maybe we need to break this down. And I don't 14 know that they're prepared to say there's a dollar amount to 15 each one of these line items. Maybe there is, but -- 16 MR. ADLER: I'd rather not today, but I think 17 his point's well-taken. In every A.I.A. contract, there are 18 phases, and within this phase we could probably break it 19 into three pieces, and at the end of the second piece -- the 20 first piece is information guide; I don't really see how we 21 can avoid that. And then the second one is where you get 22 the answers, sort of, from all the different choices, so -- 23 and then the third one is the final product. But that 24 also -- that final product also, you know, contains the GMP, 25 the guaranteed maximum price, which I -- I know is an 3-10-03 68 1 outcome you want, but you could probably stop it at that and 2 I could draw up the document with those numbers in it. No 3 question about it. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have one question, 5 Alan. I think before we started this part of the 6 discussion, you made some reference to doing all of these 7 things as outlined on Page 3, with the exception of Number 8 5, the single final schematic. Do I understand you 9 correctly? 10 MR. ADLER: Well, that would probably be a 11 third phase. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, that's not part 13 of this phase? 14 MR. ADLER: Oh, yes, it is. It's part of the 15 overall piece. I'm just saying, in answer to Mr. Letz' 16 question, that if you want to stop the process in the middle 17 somewhere, that's probably one of the places you'd -- that's 18 a break. 'Cause what happens is, right there we get all 19 these ideas, and all -- and you all decide on the scope of 20 work. You know, I go back and put it together and Huser 21 puts a number to it, a hard number. To this point, you've 22 had budget numbers and order of magnitude and things like 23 that. So -- so, that's what that step is. If you can't get 24 to an agreement, like you may, then -- then you can quit 25 before you do that. That's what it -- but it definitely is 3-10-03 69 1 part of this. Oh, quite definitely. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 3 MR. GONDECK: Commissioner Baldwin, you made 4 the comment on the total number of dollars that was out on 5 the table. There were two items that weren't totally out on 6 the table at that point, and two things that Alan did bring 7 up that are traditionally the owner's responsibility, and 8 one is the -- the actual survey of the property. But I know 9 that in the past, y'all have expended some funds for actual 10 property surveys, and I'm not sure where that stands. And 11 we have received -- or I've seen some documents of some 12 partial surveys, but I don't know if there's ever been any 13 final surveys as far as the total outlines of the buildings. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think so. 15 MR. GONDECK: From what I've seen, it's been 16 pretty rough. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought we did. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not of the buildings. We 19 have a survey of the property. 20 MR. GONDECK: The property and setting the 21 buildings on the -- the site, I -- I believe. There 22 probably needs to be some additional work done there, and 23 probably some elevations and some shots done around the 24 buildings to give us some basic ideas of drainage on the 25 site, where we have some problems with drainage on the site, 3-10-03 70 1 so some of that needs to be done. We need to have some 2 utility work done. And probably what we're looking at there 3 is, you know, I'd say probably at least $2,500 to $3,000 in 4 actual survey work that needs to be done that would not fall 5 within, you know, the architectural end. And then, prior to 6 doing any type of final structural analysis, we need to get 7 some geotechnical work done. And, even under the statute, 8 it does say that the owner is responsible for that 9 geotechnical services, and that probably -- for this size 10 we'll be planning on building, probably be somewhere around 11 $1,500. So, we'd be looking at, for those outside surveying 12 and geotechnical services, probably somewhere around, you 13 know, $4,500 to $5,000 of actual other types of 14 investigatory work. 15 MR. ADLER: We could look at the survey you 16 got and see how much is there. And then there's a form that 17 we have, that we fill out, that says this is what we'd like 18 in addition, so we could take care of all the management of 19 that for you. But it is a -- you know, we got to get some 20 kind of canvass established to start. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Question, Mr. Gondeck. Is it 22 your best estimate and opinion at this time that if we were 23 to select the option, for example, to -- we've got a 24 segregation of these various phases, and maybe they're in 25 three, where the end of the second phase is through Item 3-10-03 71 1 Number 4 as listed on the proposal that you're making; if we 2 wanted to stop that, for example, as Mr. Letz suggested that 3 we might -- it might be necessary that we do, is it your 4 best estimate and opinion at this time that if we were to 5 pay you on an hourly basis, as opposed to the fixed as 6 indicated there, that at least on a pro rata basis, 7 financially, this Court would be better off? Do you 8 understand what I'm saying? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Want to hire a lawyer? 10 (Laughter.) 11 MR. GONDECK: Okay, let me ask you a question 12 back. Judge, are you talking about within -- if we're 13 stopping at Number 4? Or -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. GONDECK: -- if we're continuing this on, 16 or -- I guess it comes down to -- my question was if you're 17 going to stop and start this over, the process of this, next 18 year or so, you know, I'm really not sure if you're going to 19 spend more money or not. Depending on how many times this 20 comes up over the next, you know, year, or if y'all, you 21 know, pick it up again after January of next year, I really 22 don't know. It depends on how much time y'all want to spend 23 on it. I'll -- I'll do it either way. Once we finish the 24 juvenile facility, it sure is going to affect me to do it on 25 a fixed fee to keep on, you know, coming up here and -- and 3-10-03 72 1 being here on a regular basis, and -- and not being able to 2 tie back into another project. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Time's -- from a time frame 4 standpoint, then, based on what you're telling me, because 5 of the travel time involved with -- with the requirement 6 that you be here locally anyway on a fairly regular basis as 7 long as that project's going on, it's your best estimate and 8 opinion at this point we might be better off just doing it 9 on an hourly basis? 10 MR. GONDECK: Well, so far I can tell you 11 this much; that, for some reason, neither one of these 12 projects have been scheduled at the same time, or meeting at 13 the same time, so it hasn't worked out to my benefit very 14 well. So, it -- to me, it has always worked better on my 15 part to do it on a fixed-fee basis, just because hourly is 16 just so hard to keep up with. I can tell you right now, 17 what I did on this basis to come up with the fixed fee is 18 just set aside five hours per week for the next three 19 months. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Could you -- 21 MR. GONDECK: That's really what I did. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Could you give us a breakdown 23 through -- through Item 4, for example, on a fixed-fee 24 basis? 'Cause if we're going to stop, it appears that's 25 where we're going to stop, is after Item 4. Wouldn't you 3-10-03 73 1 agree? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we start. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if we start, yeah. 4 Could you do that? 5 MR. GONDECK: Probably so, yes, sir. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Next question I've got 7 is for our Auditor. Let's get him in the mix here. Other 8 than going into reserves to -- do we have any money hanging 9 around for all or part of this $34,600? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: We budgeted $22,000 and some 11 change for major repairs out there that we've chosen not to 12 touch until we know the outcome of our discussions, so 13 that -- that line item is still intact. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, we're up to 15 right at 40. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that's to get through 17 5. If we stop at 4 -- I mean, I -- I really don't see us 18 getting to 5 until we get money. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't either 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. He 21 lists 5 things, and the next paragraph says Part 1 fee for 22 these services is 28, 6. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Five things. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm saying; I 3-10-03 74 1 don't think we're going to spend the 40. Hopefully we can 2 get through 1 through 4 for 22,000 and change, if that's the 3 source we use. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I was wondering if you were 5 just going to let them kind of -- kind of glean the clue, or 6 whether you were going to tell them direct. Now you've told 7 them direct, Jonathan. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where'd you get the 9 40? 10 MR. ADLER: That includes the survey, the 11 geotech -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, the survey. 13 MR. ADLER: Wayne's fees, everything. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just kind of added 15 them up as I -- and we better cut them off now, 'cause we're 16 up to 40. By the end of the day they're going to be over a 17 hundred. But, you know, I'm concerned. Tommy is now 18 talking about the -- 22? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Let me look it up. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's talking about the 21 money that we put in there for minor repairs to that 22 facility. 23 MS. SOVIL: Major. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Major repairs to that 25 facility. What if we spend that here, and we -- and then, 3-10-03 75 1 for some reason, we fall apart? Our repair money is gone. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Taking that one step 3 further, Commissioner, is it correct that over the last few 4 years, we have budgeted repair money that we haven't spent 5 and we've swept that back into the -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Still doing 7 it, yes. Do you want to go further with that? 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No. I just -- yeah. 9 Your answer suggests to me that -- that using -- if it's 10 appropriate, using part of the fund would be simply 11 retrieving money that was budgeted for purpose of the Ag 12 Barn and spending it on it. But maybe that -- maybe that 13 rationale doesn't hold water. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And what bothers me 15 about the whole thing is the comment that Commissioner 2 16 here made, is that it's -- part of that facility out there 17 is unsafe. Well, I'm not -- if the damn thing is unsafe, we 18 need to go fix it. Today. Yesterday. If it is unsafe for 19 human beings to be in that facility, we either fix it today 20 or we shut it down. And I mean that. That's not a funny 21 item at all. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, it's not. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If there is -- if that 24 thing is electrically unsafe, it needs to be shut down 25 today; I mean, the doors locked on it. And here we are now 3-10-03 76 1 talking about using the money to fix that thing to -- to pay 2 these fellows to put together a plan. I'm sorry, I'm just 3 out in left field. I still can't get my mind around this 4 thing. I'm not sure we're approaching it in the right way. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Following up on 6 that, let me ask a question to clarify, at least for me, how 7 we are approaching it. In this range of alternatives that 8 we'll be discussing and developing in these three meetings, 9 is the basis in that range of alternatives to simply 10 rehabilitate the buildings that we have now? Or does the 11 base case include destruction and reconstruction of the 12 buildings? 13 MR. ADLER: It does both. It will include 14 both. I mean, we're going to look at all of the options and 15 angles, and you're going to have to help us with priorities 16 and budget and things like that. But, no, we're going to do 17 it all. And that's why I included the criteria from the 18 original proposal request, because I know that's what you 19 want to do. But we also know we can't, so what we've got to 20 do is sift through it until we got the answer. 21 MR. GONDECK: Commissioner, I would tell you 22 that it's still up to the Court to come up with that, you 23 know, base line of what to do out there. As the -- the 24 consulting architect that came up with the preliminary, you 25 know, scope of work, I would sit there and say -- I'd 3-10-03 77 1 probably scream and holler and everything else if you do not 2 at least, one, replace the hog barn, because, you know, it 3 does not, you know, meet the needs of the intended purpose 4 out there, at least what was explained to me. And, two, to 5 renovate the arena to bring it up to the current building 6 codes and standards. Those -- those are the two things 7 that, you know, need to be done. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: But the bottom line is, 9 without at least going through Number 4, if we're going to 10 do anything -- 11 MR. GONDECK: There are multiple -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: -- we're operating in the 13 dark. And we really should go through Number 5 if we're 14 going to do something specific and -- and know exactly where 15 we're going and what's required and what needs to be done. 16 MR. GONDECK: There are multiple levels of 17 how to get there. But, I mean -- and I guess I heard, well, 18 you know, do nothing to a part. And, you know, there are 19 some things -- there are some things -- there's some minimal 20 levels of work that have to be done to almost everything out 21 there. And I guess that's where I probably may stand up in 22 the middle of something and say, you know, you really have 23 to do something here, and if you're going to do anything, to 24 make the project feasible. And I think that's what we come 25 down to, is that -- and it comes back to, you know, either 3-10-03 78 1 -- either do something or say that it -- that the facility 2 is, you know, a problem. And there are some serious, you 3 know, issues that need to be dealt with, and they either 4 need to be dealt with by doing something about it or saying 5 that there's -- it's not doable. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The Auditor indicated that he 8 had some additional information, I think. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: We did -- we did receive 10 approximately $6,000 from FEMA on the flood damage. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Say that again? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: $6,000 from FEMA. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: $6,000. And that $6,000 is 14 not included in the 22 number I just gave, so we have 30 -- 15 around $32,000, $33,000. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's 17 specifically supposed to be used for -- specifically for 18 repair. I mean, you don't -- let me rephrase that. I'm 19 really trying to ask a question; I'm not telling you what to 20 do. Isn't it supposed to be -- isn't it specific? Isn't it 21 earmarked for repairs, not for consultants? 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Well -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Am I wrong? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: -- I think it specifically 25 says that we use it for that. 3-10-03 79 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's that we 2 can't insure it if we don't fix it. Isn't that right, 3 Glenn? 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, the money -- we 6 don't have to spend it out there, but our insurance isn't 7 going to cover it if we don't fix it. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. I thought 9 you had to just spend the federal money to hire an 10 electrician to go out there and fix it, or a roofer to go 11 out there and fix the thing, as opposed to giving it to 12 Mr. Gondeck or someone like him. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know; I'm just -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's just what I 15 thought. Doesn't matter. So, six more thousand, huh? It's 16 our money anyway; just went to Washington. It's coming 17 back. All right. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It was laundered in 19 Washington. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was laundered. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: And reduced. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They raked off their 23 seven billion. 24 MR. GONDECK: Coming back a little shrunken. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And so we have $22,000 3-10-03 80 1 in the major repairs? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: There's 23. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Twenty-three. Going 4 up; we're growing here. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we have anything left 6 in Professional Services? 7 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't think there -- there 8 never was anything in Professional Services. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We talked about 10 Contingency. We didn't anticipate any professional 11 services? 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Five thousand in 14 Professional Services? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Surveyor, handling any 16 geotechnical. 17 MR. ADLER: And we would work on that, make 18 it as inexpensive as possible. 19 MS. SOVIL: We got 20,000 in Professional 20 Services. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: The decision we want to make 22 today is, do we want to do anything? And if we do, we need 23 to get ourselves specifically informed from people who are 24 able to give us accurate information as to what our options 25 are and what they're really going to cost, what's usable, 3-10-03 81 1 what's not usable. Is that where I see we are, Mr. Gondeck? 2 (Mr. Gondeck nodded.) 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It appears we can find 4 the money we would have between Professional Services and 5 Jailer Salaries, or -- (Laughter.) 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What -- just for a fun 7 conversation here, what if we said, look, guys, what we want 8 to do is put on a new roof on the -- on the old building and 9 make it kind of look like the arena thing, new roof on it 10 and replace the electrical throughout the place and put some 11 new fans over there so those calf ropers can breathe. And 12 all those -- you know, take out the hog pens and pour some 13 concrete in there, put pens back -- new pens, paint them, 14 whatever. That's all we want to do. Now, what do you -- 15 what do you do? What do y'all do? 16 MR. ADLER: Well, again, when we have that 17 meeting, which I would like to have, as originally 18 discussed, I -- that's one of the options, but there's going 19 to be other things that pop up and crop up. You named some. 20 I mean, I can name some. I mean, but we're going to cover 21 them all, and then you'll know where the priorities are, 22 'cause the dollars will be there too. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But I notice -- 24 noticed in the contractor's program, you know, he's talking 25 about parking and paving. You know, we're going to -- you 3-10-03 82 1 know, what kind of -- what kind of parking are we talking 2 about? What kind of paving are we talking about? Are we 3 talking about skid-free rock? Are we talking about hot mix? 4 Are we talking about 47 acres? You know, all those things, 5 we need to -- we really need to talk about. And I -- I 6 think we have signage. 7 MR. ADLER: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Signage -- 9 MR. ADLER: I think that's important. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, we have -- 11 today, we have a sign out there that -- at our facility that 12 part of the lettering is hanging down. We can't even fix 13 the damn sign we have, and here we are talking about another 14 40 grand or so just to find out what we need to do. But -- 15 you know, so it's at that point that we sit down and visit 16 all of those little issues. 17 MR. ADLER: Yes. I want to -- I want to hear 18 all of that. And -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 20 MR. GONDECK: Commissioner, the main thing is 21 to quantify all those issues, get them down on paper so you 22 can decide, you know, how much is it going to take? Are we 23 going to -- to fix those letters out there that are there? 24 Are we going to replace -- are they doing their job? If 25 they were straight, would they do their job? (Laughter.) 3-10-03 83 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll give you the 2 answer right now. The answer is no. 3 MR. GONDECK: But we need -- but we need to 4 document that to make sure we can say, how much is it going 5 to cost to do something right out there? And then, that 6 way, y'all can make a decision, if you know that's how much 7 it's going to take here. And by the time we add up all of 8 these, how many of those do we pull out? How many do we 9 keep in? So that we can make the decision and go forward to 10 say, how much of it can we fix? 11 MR. ADLER: Also -- 12 MR. GONDECK: Does it get another roof? Even 13 though we can't raise it up another 2 to 5 feet to be able 14 to get the proper ventilation, maybe we can afford the floor 15 in there, so at least it is -- it doesn't build up as much 16 dust and, you know, you can sill have a decent show out 17 there without the dust. Even though you don't have the 18 heighth for a good ventilation, you can get rid of as much 19 of the dust as possible by pouring a thin little slab in 20 there. There are options. And you get, you know, a sloped 21 roof in there, and -- to be able to keep it drained off. 22 There are many options with that. 23 MR. ADLER: Also, I would think during those 24 meetings we could flush out all the grants and foundations, 25 and I know there's a lot out there, because that could have 3-10-03 84 1 some bearing either on time schedule and/or scope of work. 2 And you can -- I can envision taking a lot of these pieces, 3 in perhaps three phases, one to -- to identify the livestock 4 show as the prime candidate for early money, and then you 5 may have some funds available, so you could have -- you 6 know, maybe have everything. I mean, who knows? That's -- 7 so we're going from A to Z. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think we can 9 continue talking about this literally till the cows come 10 home and not arrive at any conclusions until we get this 11 information. So -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What time do the cows 13 get home? 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: After 6:00. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ain't coming today. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right after the deer 17 and the antelope play, isn't it? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, right. In the 19 same spot, too. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What are we doing? 21 What are we going to do here? What are we supposed to do? 22 Tell them, "Thank y'all, and we'll see you around"? Or are 23 we going to vote on something, or what? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, seems 25 to me we could either -- we really need to get -- Alan and 3-10-03 85 1 Steve need to get back what it's going to -- kind of break 2 down the cost a little bit more. But if we ask them to do 3 that, I think we need to have a pretty good indication that 4 we're going to, you know, start moving forward. 5 MR. ADLER: I'd say the next piece would be 6 to fill out, if you're going to move forward, Part 1, 7 including those dollars in the -- which will be -- there 8 will be a spot in there for how you delineate the fee. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, then, basically at 10 our next meeting, sign a contract? 11 MR. ADLER: Yeah. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the next step. I 13 hear a lot of silence up here. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm cool. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: We need to keep moving 16 forward, gentlemen. That's my position. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can't sign a contract 18 today, so put it on our agenda for the next meeting to sign 19 a contract or not sign a contract? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The only difference 21 today, though, would be that you -- that you would fix some 22 cost to Items 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: And Mr. Gondeck's going to do 24 the same thing concerning his compensation, according to my 25 understanding. Is that correct? 3-10-03 86 1 MR. GONDECK: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And bring the contract as 3 well? 4 MR. ADLER: Yeah. 5 MR. GONDECK: What I'll have is an amendment 6 to our agreement from before; it will be a letter amendment 7 breaking down, per their agreement as to each phase, what 8 that cost would be. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I sense you gentlemen's 11 frustrations and I apologize for it. I see Steve back here, 12 and -- like, "What did I show up for?" And I apologize for 13 that, but we've got some frustrations here, and I think you 14 guys can sense that. 15 MR. ADLER: Yeah. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: And we want to move forward, 17 but we've got to have these particulars nailed down. And -- 18 and, you know, if we had big scads of money that we were 19 operating from, it would be -- be wonderful. We -- well, we 20 probably wouldn't be here. But, for one, I can assure you I 21 want to move this thing forward and I want to get some 22 resolution, and let's get it back on the agenda for the next 23 go-round, and y'all can update that information. And -- 24 MR. ADLER: Is our next go-round two weeks 25 from today? 3-10-03 87 1 MS. SOVIL: 25th. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 25th. 3 MR. ADLER: And in -- in terms of my 4 original -- I originally had said that -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 24th, I believe. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: It would be. 7 MS. SOVIL: 24th. 8 MR. ADLER: 24th? Same time, 10 a.m.? The 9 schedule that you had originally put in front of us and the 10 original scope of work had you opening for the livestock -- 11 is that not -- is there no -- is there no end date to this? 12 We're just going to -- I mean, 'cause I'll put in the 13 contract a schedule for how this should happen. That can be 14 aggressive, or I can be consistent and -- I mean, you tell 15 me. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to be 17 cost-effective. 18 MR. ADLER: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is probably the biggest 20 concern, 'cause I don't see any chance of having it, in my 21 mind, really done by next January, considering we're 22 approaching midyear. So I don't think we should try to -- I 23 guess I think it's unrealistic. I think we should get the 24 most bang for our buck. 25 MR. ADLER: Okay. 3-10-03 88 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we can start prior to 2 it on part of it, great. If we can't, we can't. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's part of the 4 options on where to start so as not to affect the stock 5 show. 6 MR. ADLER: Well, and that's the way I had -- 7 yeah, that's the way I had put this proposal together with a 8 real aggressive schedule, but that assumes that the money's 9 available to start construction, which we know -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: From a time frame standpoint, 11 I think you've got to keep as part of the equation in your 12 mind that we may have to go out and do some arm-twisting and 13 begging and whatever to -- to raise the money for whatever 14 we end up with. 15 MR. ADLER: Okay. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That probably is going to take 17 some time factor, I would think. 18 MR. ADLER: Okay. I think I understand. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, I don't think we 20 could hold a gun to your head on any kind of a schedule at 21 this point. It wouldn't be reasonable for us to try and do 22 that. 23 MR. ADLER: Okay. 24 MR. GONDECK: Gentlemen, if I may just 25 respond to your comment about sensing the frustration, I 3-10-03 89 1 would ask for y'all to please bear in mind that my -- my 2 biggest frustration in this situation right now is -- is 3 really not having the answers of how to answer your 4 questions on how to get you to the point of where you need 5 to be, and how to really solve your problems of how do you 6 get going with -- with really not having the resources or -- 7 or the money to get there. You know, how do you -- how do 8 you do a project without having the money? And I understand 9 this from working with counties on a regular basis, that 10 that is always the issue, of how do you develop a project 11 without having the resources up front? How do you get 12 started? How do you get moving without having the moneys? 13 And it is the hardest part of committing the funds and, you 14 know, of taking funds and, you know, putting them into the 15 design professionals up front, because, you know, you have 16 other repairs and things that have to be ongoing. But, 17 without getting everything down on paper and being able to 18 quantify, you know, what is there, what needs to be done, 19 and being able to make those logical decisions, we can't get 20 to that next point without doing the first part. But we -- 21 we appreciate y'all's patience in working through this. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate you folks being 23 patient with us, and working with you with the frustration 24 that we've got, and we -- we really, sincerely do. 25 MR. GONDECK: And I know, from my 3-10-03 90 1 perspective, I understand it's your project, and how you 2 want to get it done and when you want to get it done. 3 MR. ADLER: We'll stay with you. Thank you, 4 gentlemen. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Appreciate you 6 guys being here today. 7 MR. ADLER: Okay. Our pleasure. I'll see 8 you in two weeks. 9 MR. GONDECK: Oh, one other point. I do have 10 another commitment on the 24th, and I'm not sure how to work 11 around that. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you can't make it, I'm 13 sure they can handle it. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Either that, or -- or we may 15 want to give some consideration to -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Special meeting? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Special. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we want to do -- 19 MR. GONDECK: Unless y'all -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We could do it at the 21 same time. 22 MR. GONDECK: Unless y'all meet in the 23 afternoon or something. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We could do a workshop at 25 1:00. 3:00? 3-10-03 91 1 MR. GONDECK: It's just that there's about -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I've generally got detention 3 hearings at 3:00, and sometimes I'll have -- 4 MR. GONDECK: -- just about 200 miles in 5 between the two locations. 6 (Discussion off the record.) 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're going to have a 8 Commissioners Court meeting at 9 o'clock that day. That's 9 all I can tell you. That's all I can tell you. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have anything else from 11 you on this issue? 12 MR. GONDECK: No, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We'd be better off in 14 a workshop-type session, away from this Commissioners Court. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I think so. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: I really -- I really think so. 18 We might be able to get that one in the next item, depending 19 on where we go with it; pair it up with the same thing. I 20 -- I don't know what Mr. Adler and Mr. Huser's availability 21 is, but as we try and zero in on something, we'll get with 22 you. Thank you. We'll now move to Item 2.11, consider and 23 discuss interest in Court setting a workshop to discuss 24 possible issues related to the Maintenance Department. Mr. 25 Letz? 3-10-03 92 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the agenda, 2 and the backup is pretty self-explanatory, because of 3 several areas. One, I think -- Glenn, help me. Was it two 4 years ago we went out for bids? Two years ago, we went out 5 for bids, trying to accept -- and I have -- or to receive 6 standard pricing for materials and labor for electrical, 7 plumbing, things of that nature, HVAC. And the agreement -- 8 the actual RFQ document got very, very large, and as a 9 result of that, I think, you know, we ended up with one or 10 two bids, if that. I think it's a good idea. I think, 11 legally, we're probably really required to do this because 12 of the amount we expend on these areas on an annual basis. 13 And I just like the -- personally, I think we ought to try 14 that again. I'll be glad to work with the County Attorney's 15 office on trying to figure out a -- a form that would be, 16 you know, relatively simple to receive bids for those 17 services. 18 The other thing is, the Maintenance 19 Department, you know, to me, does a -- a great job on daily 20 maintenance, but I think, mainly because we really rely on 21 community service and trustees and things of that nature, 22 some of the long-term things are not getting done that I see 23 and I hear about. And, you know, I'm obviously at this 24 facility more than the others, but some painting in the old 25 part of the building, handrails, front doors, things of that 3-10-03 93 1 nature that are not part of the annual schedule. And I 2 think we really need to possibly look at that issue and get 3 some input from the Maintenance Department as to how best we 4 can handle that. And then, third, I just put it on there. 5 You know, I don't recall that we've ever looked at 6 privatizing any of this stuff, from lawn care or any -- that 7 wouldn't make sense, but some of the stuff. So, I just put 8 this on the agenda to see if the rest of the Court has any 9 interest in looking at any or all three of these items, and 10 if they did, I think it's something that we should do in a 11 workshop setting. Take a little bit of time; we can get 12 some -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I remember us having 14 contracts on maintenance, like, in the jail in the early 15 days. To give you an example, the air-conditioning/heating 16 units. Mr. Compton's group would come out on a regular 17 basis and do -- we had this agreement/contract thing with 18 him and with several different companies in several 19 different areas. But, why is it we stopped that? I think 20 that's what you're talking about. Why is it we stopped 21 that, and -- and how did we stop it? Why did we stop it? 22 Who stopped it? All the above. I mean, I remember doing 23 something similar to what you're talking about, and I know 24 we go to these meetings, and they tell us we're supposed to 25 do this 'cause we spend "X" amount of dollars. 3-10-03 94 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. We were under a 2 maintenance agreement; I think it was with Compton. 3 MR. HOLEKAMP: We had a maintenance agreement 4 at that time with Compton's, and we -- we -- every three 5 months they were changing filters and checking belts and 6 that sort of thing on the air-conditioners at the jail. And 7 we chose to do it in-house. We could save a considerable 8 amount of money because of the -- the units are out of 9 warranty; there was no warranty any more. So, that really 10 was -- after five years, once the jail got to be five years 11 of age, we were just paying -- or not just, but we were 12 paying a contractor to come in and change air-conditioner 13 filters, and I felt like it was better suited that we do it 14 in-house, which we have saved a considerable amount of money 15 by doing that. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with that. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: So that's the reason why that 18 has taken place. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I share some agreement 21 with Commissioner Letz, I think, as to -- as to critical 22 functions that require certain skills and licensing, 23 possibly. We need to try and get those on an annualized 24 contract basis, emergency, non-emergency, so forth. And I 25 think Glenn can probably identify the areas that his 3-10-03 95 1 department can feasibly or maybe legally handle. And -- but 2 all of these would probably be a good idea to -- to handle 3 in a workshop basis to try and figure out where we're going. 4 And I'm in agreement, we need to -- I think we need to RFP 5 as much as we can so that if any question is raised about 6 propriety of how we -- how we pay for the goods or services, 7 that everything's above-board and that there's no questions 8 that can be raised that we're in total compliance with state 9 statutes. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think a workshop 11 would be a good idea. I'm particularly interested in Item 12 Number 1, and that -- that's a budgeted -- that really goes 13 to a budget matter, "Discuss long-term maintenance schedule 14 for all Kerr County facilities." And if we're discussing it 15 and if you're preparing a long-term maintenance schedule, 16 you should be including items in that schedule that you 17 intend to take care of this year and what the cost is 18 estimated to be. Case in point, the windows in this 19 building. There are some of them still not done. 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: Quite a few of them. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 22 MR. HOLEKAMP: Because prices came in -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And other things that 24 have to do with that. So, you know, I think that's an 25 excellent item, and we ought to be talking more about it. 3-10-03 96 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Well, I'll just 2 get with the Judge, then. We can set a schedule and give it 3 to Glenn to kind of -- you know, to figure what backup may 4 be needed. Get with the County Attorney's office, maybe 5 some contract -- we can kind of hash it out, kind of 6 discuss, 'cause I think, you know, it's more -- lends itself 7 to a workshop to get it going, as opposed to a meeting. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe we could have 9 the workshop in between the hog barn workshop and the arena 10 workshop. Somewhere right -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somewhere in the wash 12 rack area. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In the wash rack area. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or we could do it under 15 the hanging letter. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. We can't have a 17 meeting outside the courthouse, though. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Only if we want to disregard 20 the law. That's okay. Item 2.12, consider and discuss and 21 take appropriate action to order a study of the 22 administration of the County's On-Site Sewage Facility rules 23 and floodplain rules. Commissioner Nicholson. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Before we get into 25 discussion of the proposal which you see here about 3-10-03 97 1 establishing a study team, I think I need to address the 2 issue of whether or not -- the issue that's been raised 3 about whether I have a conflict of interest in working on -- 4 on issues involving the County's septic rules, and 5 particularly Section 10, and issues that question the -- the 6 U.G.R.A.'s capability to administer those rules. A couple 7 of letters in the press recently have been written by people 8 who were obviously very distraught that I might have a 9 conflict of interest, and suggest that that conflict arises 10 because I own a septic system, and that I would -- might be 11 voting on or pushing an issue that would wind up abolishing 12 Section 10. 13 I do own a -- do own a residence on 14 Farm-to-Market 1340 that's got a septic system that was 15 built in 1997. I also own properties at Casa Bonita Lodges, 16 11 of them, and those properties are served by a septic 17 system that is owned by the Bonita Owners Association. If 18 one or more of my properties are sold, that will not trigger 19 an inspection under Section 10. And while it's not 20 completely relevant to the issue at hand, that septic system 21 at my house and the one owned by Bonita Owners Association 22 are both good and functioning septic systems. Mine at the 23 house is a new one. The one at Bonita Owners Association 24 was inspected in September 2000 and found to be in good 25 working order and within the requirements of the state 3-10-03 98 1 standards. So, the -- I'm telling you that to say that I'm 2 not recusing myself from the discussions on this. I know 3 that the County Attorney has been made aware of these 4 issues, first anonymously, and then through the newspaper, 5 and I won't speak for the County Attorney, but he can -- I 6 can tell you that he has not told me that I -- that I have a 7 conflict of interest. Any questions on that? 8 The agenda item is proposing a study of the 9 administration of the County's On-Site Sewage Facility rules 10 and floodplain rules, and the -- the impetus for this study 11 and the need for making a decision and getting started now 12 is three things, basically. There is a lot of interest that 13 we're all aware of among citizens in Kerr County for the 14 County to discontinue the practice of contracting with the 15 U.G.R.A., and there seems to be some support among 16 Commissioners Court members for reconsidering that contract. 17 And, three, the U.G.R.A. Board of Directors have indicated 18 that they may not choose to renew the contract when it 19 expires this fall. So, in my view, it would be prudent of 20 us to commission a study team to look into the issues and 21 provide advice to us about what our alternatives are. And 22 I'm suggesting that that team should be comprised of at 23 least two Commissioners and the County's Designated 24 Representative -- that's Stuart Barron -- and other members; 25 I suggested four out of the community who have some 3-10-03 99 1 knowledge of O.S.S.F. and water matters and some interest in 2 serving on such a committee. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- I'll start off the 4 comments. I think I agree with you; this is pretty much 5 what we had discussed, that we need to have a -- you know, 6 look at this situation prior to the budget time. The -- I 7 guess my question to you, Dave, right now is, is this to 8 look at the O.S.S.F. rules or to look at who administers the 9 program, or both? 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Both. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Both? It's both? 12 Finally -- well, I think we need to do this. The makeup of 13 the group, I think it probably should have U.G.R.A. board 14 members or someone that they represent on there. And I'm a 15 little reluctant to ask citizens to serve on committees of 16 this type, just because my experience has been that it is 17 really better for the Court to iron it out. And then I 18 think we really need to make a very strong effort, through 19 multiple public hearings or some sort of a public input 20 phase, that we really need maybe, you know, several around 21 the county, if that would help, or some process to get the 22 public involved. But, at this point, I think it's really 23 more productive, you know, with the Court and Stuart, who's 24 obviously familiar with the program. And also, if we're 25 going to look at floodplain, I think we really need to 3-10-03 100 1 possibly get a FEMA representative involved. Stuart knows a 2 lot about FEMA, but maybe somebody else, because I think 3 there's a lot of ramifications when we start tinkering with 4 floodplain rules, and FEMA dictates those. We just pretty 5 much adopt them and enforce them. But I think it's a good 6 idea to get moving on it. Just those comments. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I -- are we 8 going -- you want me to go next? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want you to, Bill. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand your 11 passion for the subject. I'm not certain I agree with you a 12 hundred percent on all of it -- all aspects of your passion 13 for this subject, but I do agree that if we're going to 14 determine as a Court whether or not we continue to have our 15 rules administered by another agency, so as not to devote 16 two-thirds of our time doing these administrative functions 17 in-house, then we need to have that discussion. We need to 18 have that discussion with U.G.R.A. present at the table. We 19 need not have the public telling us at this juncture whether 20 it is a good idea or a bad idea to involve the U.G.R.A. or 21 to continue our relationship with U.G.R.A. I believe that 22 some of the information that we need to glean and make some 23 determination on is possessed by Stuart Barron and those 24 folks that work with him directly in the administration of 25 our rules, and so I would offer another suggestion. 3-10-03 101 1 And since you haven't put this into a motion 2 yet, it'll probably ring true, but I'll offer it anyhow, but 3 that two members of the Commissioners Court be selected and 4 two members of the Upper Guadalupe River Authority be 5 selected by them -- their director, and that Stuart Barron 6 be the resource person who provides information to this 7 group of four, and they will be making recommendations -- 8 discussing and making recommendations back to this Court on 9 the continued administration of Kerr County O.S.S.F. rules 10 and regulations by U.G.R.A., and report recommendation be 11 delivered back to Commissioners Court and the U.G.R.A. not 12 later than June 1. That would be where I'd like to see us 13 go. I'm finished. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That -- that sounds 15 like a pretty good plan. I think it's a good compromise, 16 two members of the Court. And how are y'all going to -- or 17 how we're going to choose those two members is a whole 18 different story, but two members from this Court, two 19 members from U.G.R.A., and then Stuart being the staff 20 that's mentioned here. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Resource. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Resource mentioned. I 23 think that's a pretty good plan. But you have -- for us to 24 get around the voting, it will still be two. Seems like it 25 would be an odd number. 3-10-03 102 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, all they're -- 2 they're not going to vote; we're going to vote on whatever 3 recommendation -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that, but 5 to come to a conclusion of thoughts, you always -- you 6 always like to have a non-member, but that's beside the 7 point. Tell you what I'd like to know today, if we could. 8 Is U.G.R.A. saying that they're not going to renew our 9 contract? Is that what's being said? 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: In the board 11 meeting, yeah, they -- no, they did not say they are not 12 going to renew the contract. They effectively said the same 13 kind of things, actually, that they've been saying for 14 several years; what you probably said before when you 15 administered it. This is too costly, it's too many 16 problems, we're always challenged on it, and if it's going 17 to continue like this, we'd rather not have the contract. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-huh. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But they haven't 20 taken an action to do that. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No, they have not 22 voted, haven't said they're not going to do it. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Of course, what all 24 that means to me, what I -- I mean, you have to remember, 25 I've got a little tunnel vision every once in a while. What 3-10-03 103 1 that says to me is we don't pay them enough money to go 2 along with the program. You know, if we gave them a bunch 3 of money, they would be happy -- or let me put it in 4 question form. If we give them enough money, would they be 5 happy to administer the program? See, I think we need to 6 know that. If -- if they're not interested in participating 7 in any way, I mean, why are we talking about appointing two 8 people to do anything? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It will be a short 10 meeting. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be a very -- I mean, 12 if that's the case -- if that's the case, I mean, Item 13 Number 2.12 is history, in my opinion, if they're not 14 interested in participating. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, I 16 think whether or not they're interested in participating, 17 our contract is either going to be renewed or expired in the 18 next few months, and we need to do some thinking and 19 planning about how we're going to -- what we're going to do 20 about that event, whether it's -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. It's a 22 budget issue, if nothing else. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If they come in and 25 say, "Okay, we need a little more money," and we say okay, 3-10-03 104 1 we've got to build that into the budget for next year. 2 So -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- it needs to happen 5 pretty soon. Pretty soon. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: At a minimum, don't you think 7 whatever committee is -- is comprised, if it's going to 8 report back by a specific date of June 1, that at a minimum, 9 we will know if U.G.R.A. has any interest in -- in 10 administering and enforcing the program on a future basis, 11 and if so, what dollar amount's attached to it. We need to 12 know that, don't we? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Absolutely. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we also -- we'd 15 also have a -- well, by kind of reading between the lines, 16 we'll have a revised O.S.S.F. rules, 'cause Section 10, I 17 presume, is going to be a part of the committee, to look at 18 that, and I think it's good to have, you know, input from 19 both sides on that. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with that, 21 because we've had input, although not directly -- or not 22 formally, but we've had input from the Designated 23 Representative that there are flaws with Section 10. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So if there are 3-10-03 105 1 flaws, they need to be corrected. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I guess their 4 part of that decision is, are we going to keep it the way it 5 is, get rid of it, or correct it? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We need to know that 8 somewhere between where we pay them today and what they 9 assume are their costs to do it, or what we would finally 10 determine to be our cost to do it directly, is probably a 11 financial answer someplace in that, and I don't know what 12 that is. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it's my opinion 14 that -- and I know I'm getting -- putting the horse ahead of 15 the cart here. I was just assuming that maybe we knew that 16 U.G.R.A. was not interested in participating in the O.S.S.F. 17 program any more. If we knew that today, this whole 18 conversation is moot. So, we do not know that. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we will know that 21 through this committee's work. Then, if we continue our 22 relationship, I would -- I'd like to see the County write 23 the contract like we should be doing, and put the program 24 together and get -- let them agree with what we want to do, 25 period. 3-10-03 106 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well said. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: End of preaching. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, how are we forming a 4 committee? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who wants to do it? 6 Not I. 7 (Commissioner Nicholson raised his hand.) 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll do it with Dave, 9 unless Bill wants to do it. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. If I'm called 11 upon, I will, but I'm not volunteering. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you sure you don't 13 want to send a lawyer over there? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Definitely don't want a 15 lawyer. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You want it back this 17 year? Is that the deal? 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me see if I can 19 make a motion. Help me out. I move that we -- we ask the 20 U.G.R.A. Board to join with us in the study of -- of the 21 contract between Kerr County and U.G.R.A., and that that 22 study team be comprised of two Commissioners, Nicholson and 23 Letz, and that Stuart Barron also serve as a resource to the 24 committee, and that the committee bring a report back to 25 this Commissioners Court by -- did we say May 1 or June 1? 3-10-03 107 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: June 1. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: June 1. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes, sir? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In your motion, are 6 you -- did you say or are you suggesting that we request the 7 U.G.R.A. to appoint two board members to serve on it as 8 well? 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I intended to say 10 that. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My only thing that I 12 think the -- you know, I agree -- I'll second the motion 13 first. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Do you have some 15 comments you'd like to make? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we should put 17 very specific performance that we want to have, what we want 18 to have come back on June 1st. We want to know back -- in 19 my mind, we want to know, does U.G.R.A. want to administer 20 the contract? We want to have a -- a look at the O.S.S.F. 21 rules with any recommended changes, or not, and we want to 22 have a -- a cost analysis as to, you know, whoever's going 23 to do the program and who it's going to be, if U.G.R.A. 24 decides not to. A recommendation on those kind of four 25 things -- or three things, one of them having two parts. 3-10-03 108 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Commissioner, I think 2 there are three aspects to that. I don't disagree with what 3 you're saying. I think we're requiring just a little bit 4 more. It's going to take some resources on our part to do 5 that. I believe we have to determine the cost to 6 administrate the program if it's returned to the County. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Totally. We have to 9 determine the best possible -- the costs of administrating 10 the program if retained by U.G.R.A. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I think we need 13 to determine whether the program should be self-sustaining, 14 or by tax support. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with those, and I 16 think that -- yeah, I agree with that those three points. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Self-sustaining 18 through fees; that's what I'm saying. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One thing that is 20 missing that I would like to see, but it may not be 21 practical at this point, considering the makeup of the team, 22 that I would like to see -- to learn what all the best 23 practices out there are among those other 254 counties, or 24 at least a dozen of them; who's -- who -- what counties are 25 administering O.F.F.C. -- 3-10-03 109 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: O.S.S.F. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: O.S.S.F., and in 3 a -- in a most effective way. Are there any best practices 4 that we can learn from and incorporate? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't go to Travis 6 County. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Don't go to Travis. 8 253 counties. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I suggest there 10 probably are, Commissioner. I think you'd have to 11 distinguish those counties that were flat-land counties with 12 no rivers versus a county that has a river with many 13 tributaries in the midst of it. Lots of difference. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's why, 15 Commissioner, I made a joke, not 254, but maybe a dozen. 16 Maybe there's a dozen counties that have topography like 17 ours and rocks like ours. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it needs to be 19 done, but I think -- 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Can't do it now? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we can. I think 22 we can rely on Thea; she has done numerous surveys of 23 various types at my request over the times I've been a 24 Commissioner. And I think, you know, one, we can pick some 25 counties that have typical -- mostly in the highland lakes, 3-10-03 110 1 you know, area. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was going to 3 suggest L.C.R.A. has a set of rules that govern us as well. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Get some other rules, see 5 how they're doing it; talk to some other counties, see how 6 they administer, how they're doing. Find out who to 7 contact, and then you or I or somebody else can, you know, 8 visit with those counties and see how they're -- how it's 9 working. 10 (Discussion off the record.) 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When you get into -- 12 Commissioner Williams brought up an excellent point here of 13 comparing some costs and what it would cost us if we brought 14 the program back over here, hiring people, buying trucks, 15 dah, dah, dah. Are you envisioning looking at what U.G.R.A. 16 does today? How many inspections do they make a week? Or 17 how many programs do they go over? How many sheets do they 18 look at per week, and how many employees they have over 19 there that deal directly with O.S.S.F. program? You know, 20 what -- what are we sending, $30,000 or $35,000? What do we 21 send over there? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thirty. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thirty-five, I think. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thirty. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thirty. What do we 3-10-03 111 1 get for our 30? I'm not -- I'm not saying that we don't get 2 anything for our 30. I'm asking, what do we get for our 30? 3 Are you envisioning looking into that much of it? 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes, sir. And I 5 think that will be fairly easy to do. The U.G.R.A. staff 6 has done a lot of work analyzing those numbers and those 7 issues, and have reported periodically to their -- to their 8 board, and so there's a lot of information and study already 9 been done. I have done a good bit of study with the 10 U.G.R.A. and have some information on that also, so we're 11 probably well down the road. The issues have been defined. 12 There may be -- we may want to bring up new issues, but some 13 of the old issues that are -- have been defined, studied, 14 and that is available. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's correct. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thirty for O.S.S.F. 17 and five for floodplain? Is that the way it is? 18 MR. BARRON: There's nothing for floodplain. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's 30. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's a donation. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thirty plus the 22 fees. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, -- 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: They collect and 25 keep the fees. 3-10-03 112 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- could you draft a 2 letter based on that as to kind of what our -- our outcome 3 hopefully is from this committee on June 1? I just think it 4 would be helpful to send that letter over to U.G.R.A.'s 5 president, their board, so they know what we're talking 6 about. I think we don't need to call them up and say, "Hey, 7 give us some people." I think they probably need to have a 8 pretty good idea what we're talking about. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me see if I understand the 10 motion that's been made, that you've seconded, and areas to 11 be addressed. And that is a committee be suggested to 12 U.G.R.A. -- we can't force them to participate, of course -- 13 comprised of four people, being two from the Commissioners 14 Court, being Commissioners Nicholson and Letz, and two 15 directors selected by U.G.R.A. And that, as a resource to 16 the committee, the D.R., Mr. Stuart Barron, serve as, I 17 guess, ex-officio to that committee to provide information 18 and resources as requested. And that that committee would 19 look into various issues and report back to this Court 20 June 1st, the issues to be examined including, but not 21 necessarily limited to -- I thought you'd have a comment 22 about that language, Commissioner Baldwin. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. The issues of 25 economics, of the operation of the O.S.S.F. administration 3-10-03 113 1 and enforcement, if done by U.G.R.A. versus as done by Kerr 2 County, whether or not the system should be one that is 3 self-supporting by user fees only, or whether it should be 4 supported by a combination of taxpayer funds and user fees, 5 what changes, if any, should be made, including elimination 6 of various O.S.S.F. rules that are currently in place at the 7 present time. Does that accurately state what's on the 8 table at this point? 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Close. I'm okay 10 with it. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll consider that as the 12 motion, and the motion that you seconded. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's see if we got any 15 further discussion on that basis. Being no further 16 discussion, all in favor of the motion, signify by raising 17 your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'd like for you to 22 repeat the motion one more time. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Madam reporter? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I wouldn't do that 25 to you. 3-10-03 114 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Before you go on to the 2 next one, if Commissioner Williams would sort of undertake 3 that cost -- I mean, what it would cost to set up our own 4 O.S.S.F., that's really independent; it's not part of the 5 committee. And -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's -- develop 7 that here? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- start developing -- 9 start working on that so we have something to work from, if 10 you would, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you asking me to 12 do that? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, I'll do it. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because, otherwise -- and 16 if you didn't, I would have gone right down to Buster. 17 So -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Since he's already 19 disclaimed -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Will you help me out 21 a little bit? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You heard me up front 23 and early that I'm not going to participate in it. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll do that part. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's pretty 3-10-03 115 1 simple to do. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll now move to Item 2.13, 3 consider and discuss accepting Racial Profiling report for 4 the Precinct 4 Constable's office. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move that we 6 accept the Racial Profiling report for Precinct 4 7 Constable's office. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Third. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 11 seconded by Commissioners Nicholson and Williams that we 12 accept the Racial Profiling report for the Precinct 4 13 Constable's office. And is there any discussion? All in 14 favor, signify by raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Next item is 19 2.14, consider and discuss appointments for local 20 representatives to the Alamo Senior Advisory Committee. I 21 placed this on the agenda. If the Court will recall, we've 22 got -- had one previous vacancy to the Senior Advisory 23 Committee, AACOG, and another one came open December last 24 year as a result of a term being completed. You gentlemen 25 should have in your packet a couple of items for potential 3-10-03 116 1 appointees. We've got two vacancies and we've got two 2 individuals who have -- 3 MS. SOVIL: They just have -- you're the only 4 one that has the e-mail. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I apologize. The second 6 one came in -- the e-mail came in late Friday for Mr. Walt 7 Harris, and I'm sure you gentlemen are familiar with 8 Mr. Harris. He's on the 911 Board. He has indicated a 9 willingness to serve on that also, and he says in his 10 e-mail, "Recently you advertised that you needed volunteers 11 to serve on the Kerr County Senior Advisory Committee. I 12 would like to volunteer to serve on that committee. I am 13 currently serving on the Kerr 911 Board. I understand that 14 this is a volunteer position with no reimbursement, either 15 for time or travel." 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's our guy. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah. The other 18 individual that's -- that has sent me a resumé, which is 19 included in your packets, Mr. Donellan. I think if 20 you'll -- you have that resumé. If you haven't already, 21 you'll find that this gentleman is imminently qualified. He 22 could probably run the whole program down there at AACOG. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably will. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Because his -- his employment 25 for 20-plus years, or starting back over 20 years ago, was 3-10-03 117 1 exactly for these kinds of services. He was an executive 2 and manager in that respect. And so I would offer these 3 gentlemen to you as our potential appointees to the AACOG 4 Senior Advisory Committee. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I'd offer a 6 motion to accept the -- or to appoint Mr. Charles B. 7 Donellan and Mr. Walt Harris to the AACOG Council on Aging 8 representing Kerr County. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 11 seconded by Commissioners Williams and Letz, respectively, 12 that Mr. Charles B. Donellan and Mr. Walter B. Harris, Jr., 13 be appointed by the Court as Kerr -- as the Kerr County and 14 Commissioners Court's representatives at Alamo -- AACOG 15 Senior Advisory Committee. Any further discussions? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sir, I've got a 17 question. How -- what does this have to do with that? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: We just wanted to see if you 19 were paying attention. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see, okay. All 21 right. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glad you asked that. I 23 saw that. I was, like -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I know y'all -- 25 y'all can't ask those questions. I'm boy dummy here. But, 3-10-03 118 1 Thea, why is this -- 2 MS. SOVIL: Wrong side. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I see. This is a 4 lot better here. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further discussion? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Two excellent, 7 excellent people. I can't -- we couldn't have done better 8 if we'd chosen them ourselves. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion, 10 signify by raising your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I'll still 16 remind everybody, we still need one more appointment to the 17 Rural Transportation Board. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Please help us, you media 19 types. And in response to our call for these senior 20 advisory people, I -- Mr. Donellan, when he sent in his 21 resumé, he had clipped to it an article from one of our 22 local newspapers, so your assistance was invaluable in -- in 23 getting that gentleman to come forward. And -- and if we 24 would have initiated the search on our own, I'm not sure we 25 could have found anybody that was more qualified than 3-10-03 119 1 Mr. Donellan, because of his background. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: True. They're 3 probably not out there. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: They're there. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, they're out 6 there. They're out there. We just -- the press haven't 7 done their job to notify them yet. Isn't that what you're 8 saying? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: No. (Laughter.) So, we will 10 again ask for your help for this transportation committee. 11 Any further business, gentlemen? Hearing none, I'll declare 12 the meeting adjourned. 13 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 11:51 a.m.) 14 - - - - - - - - - - 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3-10-03 120 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 13th day of March, 8 2003. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3-10-03