1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, April 14, 2003 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X April 14, 2003 2 PAGE --- Commissioners Comments 4 3 1.1 Pay Bills 8 4 1.2 Budget Amendments 11 1.3 Late Bills -- 5 1.4 Read and Approve Minutes 18 1.5 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 19 6 2.1 Presentation of grant award by LCRA for the 7 completion of Union Church 19 2.2 Presentation of 911 address update 22 8 2.3 Resolution for renewal of Juvenile Behavioral Transition Program through Juvenile Justice and 9 Delinquency Prevention Fund 36 2.9 Road name changes for privately-maintained roads 38 10 2.10 Possible revision to Commissioners Court agenda to establish/utilize consent agenda method of 11 disposing of routine county business 41 2.4 PUBLIC HEARING - Revision of plat, Tracts 48 & 12 49A of Kerrville Country Estates, Section Two 50 2.5 Final revision of plat, Tracts 48 & 49A, 13 Kerrville Country Estates, Section Two 51 2.6 PUBLIC HEARING - Revision of plat, Site 15 of 14 J.L. Nichols Subdivision 56 2.7 Final revision of plat, Site 15, J.L. Nichols 15 Subdivision 57 2.8 Final plat approval for Stablewood Springs Ranch 16 Condominium Project 59 2.11 Approve use of Flat Rock Lake Park for Bike Rally 17 on June 20-22, 2003 95 2.12 Appointment to AACOG Rural Public Transportation 18 Advisory Committee 102 2.13 Authorize advertisement of RFP for architectural 19 and/or engineering services for design and/or construction of facilities at Hill Country Youth 20 Exhibit Center 103 2.14 Status of pending Airport Lease Agreement with 21 Joseph L. Kennedy Enterprises, Inc. 116 2.15 Establishing wellness program for Kerr County 22 employees 142 23 --- Adjourned 152 --- Reporter's Certificate 153 24 25 3 1 On Monday, April 14, 2003, at 9:00 a.m., a regular meeting 2 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and 7 gentlemen. It's 9 a.m. local time. I'd like to call to 8 order the regular Commissioners Court meeting for Monday, 9 April the 14th, and at this time, I would call on Precinct 2 10 Commissioner, Bill Williams. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning. I'd 12 like to introduce the pastor of Zion Lutheran Church, the 13 Reverend David Chancellor, who's been with us in the hill 14 country for about a year now. He's originally a west Texas 15 boy, and he's down here enjoying the rocks and the reels and 16 the green part of the hill country, and David came to 17 Kerrville to Zion Lutheran about a year ago from Lufkin, 18 Texas, and he's glad he did. Pastor Chancellor? 19 MR. CHANCELLOR: Glad to be back in God's 20 country. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Please join us for a 22 word of prayer. 23 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Pastor 25 Chancellor. 4-14-03 4 1 JUDGE TINLEY: At this time, any person here 2 with us that has a desire to address the Court on any matter 3 that is not on the agenda, this is the time for them to do 4 so. If you're here and want to speak concerning a matter 5 that is on the agenda, we would ask that you wait until that 6 particular agenda item comes up and speak at that time, but 7 as to items which are not on the agenda, if there is anybody 8 here that wants to give us an earful, well, we welcome that, 9 and we would ask that you come forward at this time and -- 10 and have the privilege to do so. Is there anybody here that 11 wishes to address the Court on any matter not on the agenda? 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't see any indication, so 14 we'll get on down to our normal business. Commissioners' 15 comments. Commissioner Williams? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I only have one, 17 Judge. It's kind of an invitation from the Republican Women 18 of Kerr County, who are dedicating a plaque and a memorial 19 bench to the memory of Dixie McConnell. That dedication 20 will take place in the Elm Creek Park on Tuesday, 21 April 22nd, at 5:30 p.m., and they extend a cordial 22 invitation to anybody who was touched by Dixie's enthusiasm 23 and involvement in church, education, gardening, and 24 politics and so forth, to be there for this presentation. 25 Thank you. 4-14-03 5 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Three? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couple of brief comments. 3 Last -- last week was a long week. I think it was last 4 Tuesday night, I had a meeting with some -- Rusty and I went 5 out to Cypress Creek Community for probably one of the 6 largest meetings ever in that area about law enforcement. 7 And -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't see any blood 9 or marks or stitches or anything. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There was a scene that I 11 was fortunate -- or unfortunate to be on Channel 12 news 12 that night, unexpectedly. But, anyway, I thought overall it 13 went very well. Some people are concerned still about the 14 lack of law enforcement in that area. I think we answered a 15 lot of questions, talked a little bit about 911, and I think 16 what shows that it was a good meeting is that there's a 17 follow-up meeting for those citizens that want to, to talk 18 specifically more about crime prevention, and Bill Amerine's 19 going to get with us out there for that meeting on the 23rd 20 of this month. So, we've had some issues to deal with out 21 there from a law enforcement standpoint and crimes that 22 we're all aware of. We're trying to work with them as best 23 we can. And that was followed by Thursday with the Region J 24 meeting, and that progress is a little bit slow right now, 25 mainly because we're not sure if we have any money or not. 4-14-03 6 1 Our region is a little more conservative than the rest of 2 the regions in the state; I think a lot them are going along 3 spending money. We've put a hold on everything until we 4 find out what the budget is. I guess would we could spend 5 it now, but we just don't do things that way, so we're 6 waiting. But we are -- I guess our next meeting will be in 7 early June, when we should have a good idea what our budget 8 will be for the next biennium, and things are progressing. 9 And we had a very good meeting there; we had probably the 10 largest attendance at a Region J meeting. It was held in 11 Leakey. We probably had in the audience probably 30 or 40 12 people, from numbers. So, anyway, I'm glad to see the 13 interest there. Water planning is a big interest to me. 14 There may be a little bit of reshuffling on our board, 15 maybe. I don't want to announce any names, but we have 16 another west Kerr County rancher that may be joining us, as 17 well as some other people from the region. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Four? 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I pass. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: One? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I just 22 wanted to -- I guess everyone has seen the -- today's 23 newspaper. In our prayers this week, remember 24 Dr. Meriwether and his family because of the loss of his son 25 over the weekend. Courtney was a fine young man, good 4-14-03 7 1 leader in the community, and great athlete. He and my son 2 have competed against each other for a number of years, and 3 scheduled to run against each other this coming Thursday, as 4 a matter of fact. And -- but he died in an automobile 5 accident, and a great loss to our community. He was a good, 6 good, good kid and a good leader, and just want to lift 7 Dr. Meriwether and his family up. That's all. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I have one 9 other quickie. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Surely. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There will be an open 12 public forum for Headwaters Groundwater Conservation 13 District candidates, as well as Center Point Independent 14 School District candidates, in Center Point High School 15 gymnasium Thursday night at 7 p.m., if anybody's interested 16 in attending that. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. I want to thank 18 everybody that came out this past weekend to the Youth 19 Exhibit Facility or Ag Barn, if you prefer, for the annual 20 Wild Game Dinner. I think it was well-attended, and there 21 was a lot of support out there for the projects that 22 sponsoring organizations serve. In addition, it -- there 23 was an opportunity, by virtue of Commissioner Nicholson's 24 resolution designating the 12th of April as Houston 25 Schumacher Day in Kerr County, that was partially in honor 4-14-03 8 1 of -- of Mr. Schumacher, who was a longtime active 2 participant in that, as well as many other organizations for 3 all sorts of worthwhile causes in this county. I would also 4 note that there was considerable activity in the -- in the 5 fundraising area and some of the auction items for the 6 benefit of the young Comfort soldier that was lost in the 7 Iraqi campaign. And I haven't heard the totals on that, but 8 I think everyone was quite supportive of that, and I was 9 real proud to see that. So, we -- we thank all of you that 10 attended and supported it in any way, whether it be 11 contributing items or bidding on items or buying the raffle 12 tickets or just dropping something in the bucket there for 13 that young Comfort soldier that we lost in service to his 14 country. That's all I have. We can move on with the 15 business at hand. I guess we're ready to pay the bills, 16 Mr. Auditor. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I have a 18 comment about the bills. I want to point out, in the 19 Commissioners Court section here, I see that the 20 Commissioners Court has been off to a conference, and I'm 21 one of them; I'll be darned. But I wanted to remind you 22 that the -- the State requires commissioners and judges to 23 go to classes and get "X" amount of CEU's, the hours to be 24 certified commissioners and judges, and we have gone to one. 25 That doesn't come anywhere near obtaining all of our hours 4-14-03 9 1 to be certified, and we're down to -- we have a balance this 2 morning of $100 and a few cents left. And what I'm saying 3 is just to remind us when we get into the budget, the State 4 requires us to be certified, and they set up these meetings 5 where you have to go to two; you can't -- you cannot get 6 enough hours in one. And I -- I had fought with them for 7 years about that, but so far I'm losing that battle. But 8 we -- we have to put more money in there for us to meet the 9 requirements of the State. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it -- I wasn't able to 11 attend the -- the Judges and Commissioners meeting at Fort 12 Worth which the rest of you attended. I did, however, 13 attend the judges meeting in Lubbock in January, as well as 14 a government administration seminar. I, too -- as you know, 15 I'm required to have not only hours in the -- in the 16 governmental administrative area, but also in the judicial 17 area. And in that regard, as I'm sure most of you recall, 18 there was a lot of -- a lot of conference money restored in 19 the last budget that was initially pared out. Most -- a lot 20 of it was restored. I don't recall that there was that much 21 restored that -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: From $500 to $900. I 23 can tell you. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Mine was left at $500, and -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 4-14-03 10 1 JUDGE TINLEY: -- I would point out that our 2 County Clerk, Ms. Jannett Pieper, was kind enough -- for the 3 probate seminar that occurred last month down in Corpus 4 Christi, she was kind enough to allow me to utilize some of 5 her conference money, because she ascertained there was some 6 reimbursements that were going to be coming back to her, I 7 believe, from the Office of Court Administration, and by 8 virtue of that, she had a little extra, and so I kind of 9 rode her coattails, and I want to thank her for that. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: So, if we don't have any more 12 on that, why, we'll let Tommy tell us about the rest of 13 these bills. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move we pay the 15 bills. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 19 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Williams, 20 respectively, that we pay the bills. Any further 21 discussion? All in favor, signify by raising your right 22 hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 4-14-03 11 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. We've got 2 budget amendments. Budget Amendment Number 1. 3 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 1 is for the Sheriff's 4 Department. This -- this amendment actually increases the 5 budget by $4,565.04. It reflects the receipt of that amount 6 from the Bureau of Justice Assistance for Bulletproof Vest 7 Program. So, we're increasing the Operating Equipment line 8 item by that amount for the purchase of -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: But those are third-party 10 funds that are coming in to offset that? 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, they are. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's made and seconded by 16 Commissioners Letz and Williams, respectively, that Budget 17 Amendment Request Number 1 be approved. Any further 18 discussion? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Question. Even though 20 there's money coming in from the bureau to offset this cost, 21 those numbers will be in the budget next year? Yes or no? 22 MR. TOMLINSON: No. Not -- not unless we 23 know that we're going to receive those again next year. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, good. That's a 25 good thing. 4-14-03 12 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, but I think your 2 point is also -- is that when we look at comparing 3 expenditures from year to year, they will be in there in 4 that comparison. We need to kind of file things like this 5 away, that there's a reason, you know, there's a spike. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Your point's well-made. I 7 think -- I think the operating equipment in this current 8 year's budget needs to be annotated that this amount was 9 increased by virtue of an offsetting -- 10 MR. TOMLINSON: It -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: -- assistance fund. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: The budget worksheets will 13 show that there's an increase. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: So we'll know, in review. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Would it be possible for you 18 to footnote that so that when I start looking at those 19 numbers in preparation for next year's budget, that it will 20 be a clear red flag going up for me? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't know if I can find 22 all of them, but I will try. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I'd appreciate that, if 24 you could. Any further discussion? All in favor, signify 25 by raising your right hand. 4-14-03 13 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 5 Amendment Request Number 2. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 2 is for the 198th 7 District Court. And we have a necessity to transfer 8 $6,571.43 from Court-Appointed Attorneys line item, $52.50 9 to Special Court Reporter and $6,518.93 to Court-Appointed 10 Services. I do have a -- a need for a hand check in the 11 amount of $2,819.15. It's to the company of the 12 Nucleo-Genix, and it's for the case review and expert 13 consultations for a case. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 17 we approve Budget Amendment Request Number 2 and authorize 18 the issuance of a hand check in the sum of $2,819.15 sent to 19 Nucleo-Genix. Is there any further discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Could you say again 21 what occasioned this -- this unforecasted expense? 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, it's -- it's the State 23 of Texas vs. Andrew Duarte in the 198th District Court. And 24 apparently, this is -- this person is a witness for that 25 trial. We just didn't have the funds available for 4-14-03 14 1 court-appointed services to pay for it. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Apparently some sort of an 3 expert witness in lab analysis. It sounds to me like 4 possibly DNA-type testing. I don't know. Any further 5 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 6 your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget 11 Amendment Request Number 3. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: This one is for the County 13 Court at Law, and we're asking for a transfer of $122.66 14 from the Special County Court-at-Law Judge's account, 15 transfer $22.60 to Miscellaneous, and $100 to Special Court 16 Reporter line item. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, what's the 18 difference between a special court reporter and a regular 19 court reporter? 20 MR. TOMLINSON: We -- we try -- it's for 21 H.B. 7. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: We differentiate the cost of 24 indigent defense, as opposed to -- to regular court, so we 25 can report that to -- to the Office of Court Administration. 4-14-03 15 1 And, actually, it's for the purpose of hopefully obtaining 2 funds from -- through the Office of Court Administration. 3 It's an annual report that we do. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would it be, I mean, 5 possible to put, like, "court reporter," and then afterwards 6 "indigent" or something? I mean, just a way so we can -- 7 I'm sure I ask the same questions probably three or four 8 times a year. It seems that it's a -- I mean, if there's a 9 way to look at it and understand what it is easier, it would 10 be easier for me. Well, I guess it's easy for you. That's 11 what -- 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, we -- well, we can. I 13 just know that -- I just know that that's what it's for. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 17 seconded by Commissioners Nicholson and Letz, respectively, 18 that Budget Amendment Request Number 3 be approved. Any 19 further discussion? All in favor, signify by raising your 20 right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just keep asking the 25 question. 4-14-03 16 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion passes. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Maybe we can do that 3 in the next budget process. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: We can change the name of 5 that account, I mean, you know, any time we want to. So -- 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'd like to see that 7 too. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Budget Amendment Request 9 Number 4. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: This one is for the County 11 Attorney. It's for software maintenance to The Software 12 Group, and we're asking to transfer $100 from Miscellaneous, 13 $120 from the Telephone account, and $498 from Attorney's 14 Fees. That will make it $718 to Software Maintenance -- 15 actually, we have a bill for -- for this quarter, and we're 16 adding enough to pay for the next quarter also. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded by 20 Commissioners Letz and Nicholson, respectively, to approve 21 Budget Amendment Request Number 4. Any further discussion? 22 All in favor, signify by raising your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 4-14-03 17 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget 2 Amendment Request Number 5. 3 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 5 is for the Sheriff's 4 Department. This request is to transfer $949.62 from 5 Deputies Salaries, $136.16 into Radio Repairs and $813.46 to 6 Investigation Expenses. I do have a -- a need for a hand 7 check payable to James Graham for $1,106.27, and it's to 8 reimburse him for expenses to California for the Comfort 9 murder. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded by 13 Commissioners Letz and Williams, respectively, that Budget 14 Amendment Request Number 5 be approved and authorize 15 issuance of hand check to James Graham for $1,106.27 for 16 reimbursement of expenses previously incurred by him. Any 17 further discussion? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just a comment. 19 Tommy, this radio repair, you don't foresee any more coming 20 down the pike, do you? I mean, we just spent a million 21 dollars on radios. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't -- that's a good 23 question. That's a question for the Sheriff. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: I can't predict that. 4-14-03 18 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be happy to ask him 2 that. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion? 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed? 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Do we have 9 any late bills? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: No. No, we don't. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Next item, read and 12 approve the minutes, unless I have a motion. I have before 13 me the minutes for the regular session meeting Monday, 14 March 10, 2003, and the special session of Monday, March 24, 15 2003. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move that we 17 waive the reading and approve the minutes as they are. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded by 20 Commissioners Baldwin and Williams, respectively, that we 21 waive the reading and approve the minutes of the regular 22 session Monday, March 10, this year, and the special session 23 Monday, March 24, this year. Is there any discussion? 24 Being none, all in favor, signify by raising your right 25 hand. 4-14-03 19 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. I also have 5 before me monthly reports from the District Clerk, County 6 Clerk, Sheriff, Justice of the Peace, Precincts, 1, 2, 3, 7 and 4. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move acceptance of 9 the monthly reports. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded by 12 Commissioners Williams and Letz, respectively, that we 13 accept the monthly reports of District Clerk, County Clerk, 14 Sheriff, Justice of the Peace, Precincts, 1, 2, 3, and 4, as 15 presented. Any further discussion? All in favor, signify 16 by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll now move to the 21 consideration agenda. For the first item of business, we 22 have with us today a gentleman that I've recently come to 23 know and for whom I've acquired a great deal of respect 24 because of his expertise and abilities. He has an extensive 25 background in economic development, community betterment, 4-14-03 20 1 and civic involvement, and he's an active sort of fellow, 2 the type that wants to roll up his sleeves and go to work 3 and help his community. Even though his position requires 4 him to be active within counties and communities in the 5 entire hill country and central Texas area, he has chosen to 6 make Kerr County his home, and we're very, very grateful for 7 that. He's a public affairs representative for the Lower 8 Colorado River Authority, who we commonly call L.C.R.A., and 9 that's an organization that's been very, very active and 10 financially supportive of many, many local government 11 nonprofit and other civic causes here within Kerr County, 12 and we're most appreciative of that and their help over 13 many, many years. And, at this time, I would call upon 14 Mr. Roland Pená, the public affairs representative for 15 L.C.R.A. He has a presentation to make in connection with 16 our Historical Commission activities, and representing them 17 we have General Walter Schellhase and Mr. Haskell Fine, and 18 I'll turn it over to you now, Mr. Pená. Glad to have you 19 here this morning. Thank you. 20 MR. PENÁ: Thank you, Judge. Thank you for 21 that introduction. I was not expecting that. I'm extremely 22 humbled. I consider it an honor to be here before you, and 23 a privilege. I am ecstatic about -- about today's 24 presentation. We -- I know that you've received a written 25 acknowledgment, but I think today we wanted to make it 4-14-03 21 1 public and notify you and the public that you've been 2 awarded a $15,000 grant -- Community Development Grant, made 3 possible by the C.D.P.P. program that KPUB and L.C.R.A. 4 share. Now, that's important. Our grants are made possible 5 because of our customers. I'm not sure if KPUB is here 6 today, but what I brought with me is a banner that, if you 7 have time, we could do a -- a Kodak moment for the press and 8 we can show the public just what this check is going to look 9 like. You'll have the hard copy in your hands within 48 10 hours. I'd like to have the Union Church building 11 representative with us so that they can take a photo as 12 well. And we're extremely proud of what you're doing with 13 regard to historic preservation. I'm glad we're here, and I 14 commend you for all of your efforts. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Pená. 16 MR. PENÁ: Where do you want to do this? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Anywhere you're comfortable. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The Judge should be 19 in that picture, too. 20 (Discussion off the record.) 21 MR. PENÁ: Do you want us up there? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, come on up here. 23 MR. PENÁ: How about the Commissioners? No? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Cameras -- you'd need 25 a wide-angle lens to get us in there. 4-14-03 22 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Kodak moment is over. 3 MR. PENÁ: Congratulations. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: You guys spend this money 5 wisely, now. We appreciate you being here, Mr. Pená. Thank 6 you so much. Happy moments in local government. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Particularly when 8 they give us money. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, you bet you. Thank you 10 again, Mr. Pená. We appreciate it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I wonder what precinct 12 Roland lives in. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where do you live, 14 Roland? 15 MR. PENÁ: Well, I'm living temporary in the 16 Riverhill Apartments until I can build or -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's Precinct 2. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's temporary, I 19 hope. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good try. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You showed real good 22 judgment in selecting Kerr County. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, indeed. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item is the presentation 25 of the 911 address update by our 911 Director. I'll turn it 4-14-03 23 1 over to Commissioner Precinct 1, Buster Baldwin. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much, 3 sir. And before our director comes up, I wanted to present 4 a -- a document here from the governor of the state of Texas 5 that states that this week, April 13th through 19th, is -- 6 he proclaims as Public Safety Telecommunicators Week, so 7 that's a -- it's a perfect time, I think, for the -- that 8 deals with 911 and all those issues that they -- that they 9 do out there, and I thought it was a perfect time for 10 Mr. Amerine to come back to us and kind of just give us an 11 update on what they're doing and what he is doing. And, as 12 you probably have seen in the papers and heard around town, 13 that they are doing a -- a blitz through the media and 14 service organizations to let -- try to let everyone know 15 what's going on, and that's something new for us in 911, and 16 I appreciate what they're doing. And their whole goal is to 17 let the general public in Kerr County know what's going on 18 with their 911 system. So, Mr. Amerine, if you would come 19 forth? And I think he has a couple of board members with 20 him. 21 MR. AMERINE: Yes, I do. I have Charles 22 Lewis and Walt Harris, who are both board members just this 23 last year. Commissioners and Judge Tinley, thank you for 24 having me here today to talk about our progress. It's been 25 very positive, but I'm going to have several caveats, so be 4-14-03 24 1 prepared for those. I didn't really think about how I was 2 going to display this, so if I could get good Commissioner 3 Baldwin's assistance? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Who are we 5 showing this to? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Put it on that easel. 7 MR. AMERINE: I don't see any tacks; I was 8 looking. But, anyway, as you can see, the green area of the 9 county of Kerr there is -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Put those up there. 11 MR. AMERINE: Thank you, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're welcome, sir. 13 Don't start all this military stuff. 14 MR. AMERINE: Can't help it. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Look at that. God, 16 we're good. See? This is another function of the 911 17 system. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's cooperation. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is. 20 MR. AMERINE: My very talented staff has made 21 a great deal of progress since I spoke to you last. The 22 area that you see in Kerr County there that's green is 23 90 percent complete. I want to temper that with saying 24 those are probably the least populated areas of the county, 25 and as you can see, we have some very populated areas to 4-14-03 25 1 still attack. But I think the important thing is that -- to 2 let the Commissioners know and the citizens of Kerr County 3 know that we're ahead of schedule; we intend to stay ahead 4 of schedule. But the key here is, this is all internal. 5 This is internal to the 911 office of our addressing effort; 6 we're building these databases. In September, we'll be 7 producing letters to go to the citizens. And the final 8 sheen on this effort will come from the citizens of Kerr 9 County letting us know that we've done a good job, verifying 10 information that we've provided them in these letters, and 11 coming out to pick up their property signs so that we can 12 make sure we can find them. But I just wanted to let you 13 know we're well ahead of schedule. Things are going very 14 well. 15 We've -- I want to take this opportunity to 16 thank the Commissioners who have been very actively involved 17 with helping us with some of the road name issues, and 18 unsolicited help that I'm getting from some Commissioners on 19 some of our citizens and their perspectives about 911. 20 Commissioner Baldwin mentioned this -- this state 21 proclamation on the National Public Safety Communicators 22 Week. It's also the National Public Safety Communications 23 Week as well. Timing couldn't be better from the 911 24 office. We started kind of slow with the public awareness 25 presentations we're giving to community groups. We're 4-14-03 26 1 starting to pick up the pace. Last week we met with all 2 five Postmasters and our representative, Cindy Guerrero, 3 from San Antonio in a workshop with our local media to talk 4 about not just the addressing project, but what 911 in Kerr 5 County means, what we do. We took them on a tour of the 6 public safety access point, which is -- answering point, 7 which is our computer over at the Kerrville Police 8 Department that stores all the 911 information. 9 I think it was a very positive experience and 10 it was a great meeting. We got a -- I'm going to qualify it 11 as a wholesale, 150 percent endorsement from the Post Office 12 on our plan and where we're going with that. And you'll see 13 a lot more. You'll see information for the citizens from 14 now until the end of this effort at the end of the year, and 15 probably through next year as well in the public schools, on 16 the -- the newsprint, the radio, local television. We 17 intend, when we get around to finishing this project, there 18 won't be a citizen in Kerr County that has any 19 misconceptions about what 911 is in this county, what the 20 addressing project means to them, and how we're going to 21 finish it and how we're going to need their help. Any 22 questions? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, sir. 24 MR. AMERINE: Yes, sir? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question on 4-14-03 27 1 the -- you went over the -- I guess, the address signs or 2 the numbers. How is that going to work? I mean, how are 3 those going to be distributed to the public to post? Or do 4 you -- have you got that far yet? 5 MR. AMERINE: We haven't really given it much 6 thought, other than the fact that the sign maker that used 7 to reside over in Roads and Bridges is now back over in our 8 facility. We are currently setting money aside to buy the 9 initial supplies that we need for the reflective tape and 10 the sign blanks. Initially, just brainstorming with our 11 group, we've thought about having people come in to the 12 local office and to pick up the signs, much as they do in 13 other counties. We also thought about some of the more 14 distant areas of the county, actually setting up at some of 15 the volunteer fire departments and those areas and providing 16 a local service for providing those signs, having someone 17 out there scheduled to do that. I think that -- you know, 18 one goal -- I've made the comment before that the physical 19 address that 911 is going to provide is meaningless without 20 a property sign at the gate. I mean, it's going to be in 21 the database; it will be displayed for the dispatchers, but 22 unless there's a 911 sign that helps that emergency 23 responder find that property, it's meaningless. So, we 24 haven't really got much thought at this point, but we're 25 looking to do it in our office and probably at the volunteer 4-14-03 28 1 fire departments. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just have a 4 comment, Judge. I happened to be at the Host Lions Club 5 meeting last week when Bill made a presentation, and I was 6 impressed by the fact that he started his presentation by 7 asking those that were in attendance, "Tell me what you 8 think about 911, and tell me what problems you've 9 encountered." And that's the kind of input that we need -- 10 we have needed to solicit in the past, and I appreciate your 11 doing that. 12 MR. AMERINE: Thank you, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Amerine, do you 14 have any thoughts about what the County could be doing 15 differently to help you out, whether it's Commissioners 16 Court or the -- the address coordinator or Road and Bridge 17 or whoever? Is there -- 18 MR. AMERINE: I don't have anything to share 19 today. I think as we go through this evolutionary process 20 of addressing, especially as we get closer to producing the 21 letters for the citizens, that we're going to probably be 22 putting our heads together to talk about those things, but I 23 just don't have anything today for you, sir. I just have -- 24 on that question, I have to say I'm very pleased with the 25 cooperation I'm seeing from all stakeholders in this 4-14-03 29 1 project. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I appreciate you 3 asking for help, 'cause I think oftentimes we don't know 4 what we can do to -- 5 MR. AMERINE: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- move it along, so 7 keep that up, if you will. 8 MR. AMERINE: I will do so. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And to piggyback on 10 those comments, Bill, I'm rapidly becoming the old geezer 11 here on this court, and -- 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, ho. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Second that motion? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's a second down 16 there. It's hard to get him to second anything. But what I 17 wanted to do is take the liberty to offer this Commissioners 18 Court -- you know, that when you go out to these functions 19 and service organizations, if you -- if you feel like one of 20 these guys or all of us need to -- or one of these guys need 21 to go with you, don't hesitate to call, 'cause the Judge 22 doesn't do much, so he'd be happy to go along, show his 23 support. 24 MR. AMERINE: Thank you for that. And I 25 think something I'm -- I discussed with you last week that I 4-14-03 30 1 think would be an excellent opportunity to show solidarity 2 amongst the Commissioners and all the stakeholders is, as we 3 get close to the letter mailing in September, to get the 4 Commissioners, the Judge, the Post Office, the 911 office, 5 the Board of Managers from 911, the City Managers or Mayors 6 together for a news conference to say the letters are 7 coming. You've had a media blitz up to this point to 8 understand what these letters mean to you and what we're 9 looking for as far as interaction, and to answer any 10 questions the media may have. That -- the solidarity that 11 we've already seen indirectly is great, but I think that is 12 kind of the final push so that we can get citizens to get 13 out -- what we want is more than a 48 or 50 percent turnout 14 on these letters. We need, you know, 80, 90 percent to make 15 sure that the addresses that we have in our database are 16 valid and that we have citizens out there that can be found. 17 So, I'll be talking to all of you as we get through the next 18 few months before that. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it'll be well 20 worth the effort to actually post a meeting for five minutes 21 or ten minutes, whatever it takes to do that, so we can all 22 be together and get this thing done. I'm really proud of 23 the -- what's going on with our 911 system. We've gone many 24 miles. Thank you, Mr. Amerine -- 25 MR. AMERINE: Thank you, sir. 4-14-03 31 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- for your service. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Amerine? 3 MR. AMERINE: Yes, sir? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you going to be able to 5 meet Mr. Letz' expectations for his group that he had down 6 there in Comfort here this past week? 7 MR. AMERINE: Well, between the 8 Commissioner's help and the help of one of my board members, 9 I'm sure I'm going to have a very good meeting on the 23rd 10 with some of our citizens out there. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 MR. AMERINE: But I -- you know, kidding 13 aside, that's absolutely what my job is here as 14 representative and speaker for the 911, is to go out and -- 15 just as I said at the Lions, I want bold, honest, in-my-face 16 honesty from these folks. If I don't have that kind of 17 feedback, I don't know where we're making mistakes, so I'm 18 ready for that. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the encouraging thing 20 is that you're getting this kind of interest from the people 21 out there that -- that want to see this thing happen, and 22 hopefully that's a sign of -- of the degree of participation 23 when they're called on to participate and respond to these 24 letters. And if they'll work with you there, from what I'm 25 hearing, if you ever can make it happen, then we're in 4-14-03 32 1 pretty good order. 2 MR. AMERINE: I hope so. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One other comment, just 5 kind to dovetail that a little bit. That's that -- and I'm 6 not positive of this, but I'm pretty certain the reason the 7 community in my precinct was able to get Channel 12, KSAT, 8 down there was based on -- I'm saying based on the trailers 9 that were shown during the day about this being -- it was a 10 big story on their channel, the 10 o'clock news, was that 11 after 12 -- this is the trailer: After 12 years, Kerr 12 County still can't, you know, get 911 done. And I think 13 it's real important for us to remember, I mean, that while 14 we're happy we're making progress, there's a tremendous 15 amount of frustration in our citizenry and our constituents 16 that nothing's happened, in their mind, in 12 years. And 17 "nothing" is -- is probably a little too strong, but I think 18 there's a real reason a lot of our citizens are real 19 concerned and upset with 911, and I think that's what -- you 20 know, I got the brunt of some, and I think most of us have 21 probably received calls about that at one point or another. 22 And I think it is very important for Mr. Amerine to go out 23 and visit with people and for us to be up front with him, 24 and -- but, you know, I think that -- you know, I went out 25 on a limb based on him going out on a limb, and we have a 4-14-03 33 1 schedule now. And I said, you know, the letters are going 2 out in September, and that's putting a lot of accountability 3 behind this right now, and we just need to be -- you know, 4 we need to remember why we're -- the citizens are upset with 5 -- those that are upset. 6 MR. AMERINE: Well, at the risk of sounding 7 defensive, and I certainly don't want to, one of the things 8 that was mentioned in that news conference -- or let's call 9 it a media opportunity that you had, was that Kerr 911 10 doesn't exist because some of the citizens of Kerr County, 11 when they dial 911, get Kendall County. Well, that's a 12 problem that we need to know about. That's simply not the 13 way it should work. And those things are driven by how 14 someone's, you know, billing record is set up through the 15 phone company, whether they've moved recently. The number 16 one thing that folks in Kerr County need to know is that 17 it's absolutely important for them to call us at our office 18 and let us know that this has happened, and we can fix it 19 for them. It's a real easy thing to fix. So, the 20 perception that there's not a 911 system in Kerr County has 21 -- has to go away. That's why we had the media workshop. 22 We took the media over to show them that there, indeed, is a 23 911 system over in the police department. It is up and 24 running; it has been for years. So, when citizens have 25 something like that happen where they don't get the right 4-14-03 34 1 dispatch, they need to call us and let us know. We can fix 2 that. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, after 4 Mr. Amerine finishes his baptism of fire at Cypress Creek, I 5 invite you to work with me to set up a town meeting in 6 Center Point, do the same thing. 7 MR. AMERINE: I will, sir. I very much would 8 like to do that. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think -- you know, 10 and I don't know how we really solve that problem of -- 11 like, there was something -- I don't really know how it 12 happened as to why some Comfort residents who live in Kerr 13 County -- it gets sent to Boerne as opposed to Kerr County. 14 I don't know why -- you know, I don't know why that happens, 15 but I also presume that Bill has some. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We do. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I bet -- you know, 18 and I know there's some in -- I wouldn't be surprised if 19 there's other situations, maybe in west Kerr County, maybe 20 Buster's precinct as well, where, because of fire 21 departments and everything else, it's kind of -- it's not 22 real simple as to who gets notified. And I think we need to 23 do additional work with the dispatch in Kerrville on the 24 other side of that, 'cause there's been some problems there 25 recently as well. 4-14-03 35 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would that be more a 2 function of telephone routing than anything else? 3 MR. AMERINE: Yes, sir, it is. That's 4 exactly what it is. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: You got 995 and 589 numbers in 6 Medina. That's what's causing the problem. 7 MR. AMERINE: Right. We'll have to get with 8 the phone companies and let them know citizens that reside 9 in Kerr County need to be routed through our GPS -- our 911 10 system, not the adjoining county's. But you're right, those 11 situations are convoluted on how they pay taxes, the phone 12 company they use, what utilities they use, where they 13 reside. It gets very complex. The number one thing at the 14 end of this year, besides this addressing, is I want people 15 to have confidence they have a 911 system here that works 16 and it is up 24 by 7 by 365, 'cause that's the way it is. 17 That's what we have to do. That's what we've had for years, 18 so it really bothers me that folks feel like they don't have 19 a 911 here. They do. We just need to identify the problems 20 and fix them. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 22 comments of Mr. Amerine? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate you being here 25 today, sir. 4-14-03 36 1 MR. AMERINE: Thank you. I'll leave that for 2 the Commissioners. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Lewis, Mr. Harris, thank 4 you for being here. The next item on the agenda is to 5 consider and discuss the resolution for the renewal of the 6 Juvenile Behavioral Transition Program through Juvenile 7 Justice Delinquency Prevention Fund. This is one which we 8 have participated in for some period of time; is that not 9 correct, Mr. Tomlinson? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: That's correct. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: And this merely reaffirms our 12 participation in the program, and the grant proceeds for 13 $32,000 and change, and our agreement to provide minimum 14 matching percentage of a little under $3,600. Is that 15 correct, Mr. Tomlinson? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: That's correct. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These funds are budgeted 19 already? Our match? 20 MR. TOMLINSON: This is for the juvenile -- 21 the detention facility. Those -- this match is paid for out 22 of those revenues. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, it's paid for out of the 24 detention facility receipts, which is essentially an 25 off-budget -- it's a lump item out there. 4-14-03 37 1 MR. TOMLINSON: This is -- this grant's 2 for -- it actually pays the salary and benefits for a 3 therapist for preadjudicated residents. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval of the 5 resolution. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded by 8 Commissioners Letz and Nicholson, respectively, that -- that 9 the resolution for the renewal of the Juvenile Behavioral 10 Transition Program through the Juvenile Justice and 11 Delinquency Prevention Fund be approved. Is there any 12 further discussion? All in favor, signify by raising your 13 right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, the 19 Stablewood Springs Ranch issue, there are a number of people 20 here that want to address that. Would it be possible to 21 move that up in the schedule? Would we have some 22 flexibility? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the next item, of 24 course, that we have is a scheduled item for 10:00. We're 25 not there yet. The next four items actually are scheduled 4-14-03 38 1 items, so that would necessarily bring us there. I think 2 it's wonderful. 3 MS. FROST: Judge, I'd like to request that 4 you not do that, because we have talked to the people and 5 asked them to be here by 10 o'clock. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: You have some other people 7 coming? 8 MS. FROST: Right. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Very good. We don't want to 10 deny anybody the right to be heard that wants to be heard on 11 an issue. 12 MS. FROST: Thank you. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: On the schedule, it appears 14 that it's going to occur probably after 10:30. 15 MS. FROST: Right. Thank you very much. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. I appreciate that, 17 Ms. Frost. We could then go to 2.9. Would that be 18 acceptable without problems? We'll go to 2.9, consider and 19 approve road name changes for privately maintained roads in 20 various locations in Kerr County, pursuant to the 911 21 guidelines. Ms. Hardin? 22 MS. HARDIN: We have 10 today. I think most 23 of these are related to the unnamed road letters that the 24 Commissioners got. Anybody have any questions? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These are all private 4-14-03 39 1 roads, correct? 2 MS. HARDIN: They're all private roads. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval as 4 presented. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded by 7 Commissioners Williams and Baldwin, respectively, that we 8 approve road name changes as presented for the privately 9 maintained roads in various locations in Kerr County, such 10 changes having been made in accordance with 911 guidelines. 11 Any further discussion? If not, all -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Discussion. Truby, there 15 are a couple of misspellings in the backup. Is that 16 important? 17 MS. HARDIN: In the backup? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's one -- you know, 19 and I don't know that -- it's on the first page in the 20 backup, is Diamond D Road. 21 MS. HARDIN: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It shows location of road 23 off 183 near Kendall County line. I think it should be 24 Kimble County line. 25 MS. HARDIN: Okay. 4-14-03 40 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These are -- I mean -- 2 and I thought there was another one I saw somewhere. But 3 that was the -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: 83 or 183? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's 83. Should be 83. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 7 MS. HARDIN: All right. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Unless we moved the road, 9 I guess. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Letz, I 11 noticed one new name is Sour Mash in your precinct. Should 12 we let the Sheriff know about this? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Identify the location 15 of the still? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That was at Mr. Holt's 17 request. He's going with that -- that direction of names 18 for the roads in Whiskey Canyon. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: In the Whiskey Canyon 20 Subdivision? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Something up 22 here, I'm telling you. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does that make sense 24 or what? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: It was reported, you know, 4-14-03 41 1 that back during the Prohibition times, that's how that got 2 its name of Whiskey Canyon; that there were some stills back 3 in that area. So it was reported to me, at least. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I've 5 always heard. 6 MS. HARDIN: We already have four more for 7 the next agenda, so if any of you have any of the unnamed 8 roads that you need to get in, I'd appreciate it so we could 9 get them in on the next go-round. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any further 11 discussion on this particular item? If not, all in favor of 12 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Thank you, 17 Ms. Hardin. Next item will be to consider, discuss, and 18 take appropriate action on revisions of Commissioners Court 19 agenda to establish and utilize the consent agenda method of 20 disposing of routine county business at regular and special 21 sessions of the Commissioners Court. Commissioner Williams. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I put this on 23 here. I don't know whether a majority of the Court favors 24 this approach or not, but many governmental agencies use it 25 and use it as a matter of expediting what otherwise is known 4-14-03 42 1 as routine business. I asked the County Auditor to be 2 present for discussion, because I was of the belief that 3 there might be questions concerning how we handle budget 4 transfers and whether or not putting them on consent is -- 5 is in accordance with the law, and so Tommy is here to 6 answer any questions that the Court may have. I also 7 included in your backup just a copy of a Bandera County 8 Commissioners Court that does -- has a similar type 9 provision for moving and expediting its business. So, with 10 that, we'll see where we are with it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I've got a 12 comment. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thought you would. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. The -- I have 15 had several people through the years come to me and say, "I 16 cannot believe that y'all go through each and every bill and 17 look at every little thing and actually vote on those 18 issues." Sometimes I can't believe that either. However, 19 I'm really comfortable in that being our duty, of looking at 20 every penny that comes through here and every issue that 21 comes through here. Now, most of these things, you know, I 22 kind of agree with. I think it would be kind of neat -- you 23 know, the minutes and reports and those kinds of things, I 24 don't mind at all. But when it comes down to discussing 25 money and -- and particular issues dealing with some things 4-14-03 43 1 that I have going on in my precinct, I -- I would like to -- 2 particularly the money issues, the bills and transfer of 3 dollars. I think each and every one of those need to come 4 to this table, and we actually discuss and vote on those. 5 Number one, recordkeeping. Court orders and those kinds of 6 things are extremely important. Years down the road, you 7 can look back on them and see what -- you know, look at a 8 track record or look at a track of where these things have 9 been and where they've gone. So, I would just want to be 10 careful in what we do. That's all I -- that's the only 11 comment I had. I just want to be careful about how we do 12 it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I kind of -- I 14 agree with Commissioner Baldwin on a lot of that. The 15 bills, the budget line items, those types of things, I'd 16 really rather do at each meeting, individually. I think 17 that is -- there's -- it is a way to make -- you know, go 18 through these items. I think that's probably one of those 19 important things we do. The minutes and reports, of course, 20 are not as significant from the standpoint of going through 21 them every day, but I personally enjoy going through the 22 bills and the budget amendments, things of that nature. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I was pleased and 24 somewhat surprised, I guess, to find -- to learn that -- 25 that the County employees and officials have an attitude of 4-14-03 44 1 frugality and I appreciate that. I didn't quite expect it. 2 I've dealt with other governments or bureaucracies where 3 being frugal and watching after taxpayers' money wasn't 4 important. Perhaps it's because I'm one of the younger 5 members on the Commissioners Court, but going through those 6 bills is -- is an education process for me, and it also 7 helps me explain in some cases -- not often, but 8 sometimes -- why we do what we do. So, I would like to at 9 least continue that part of the process on the budget issue. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is not an item 11 that I'll fight, bleed, and die for, Judge. It is an item 12 that does, I guess, expedite matters a little bit, and I 13 think other bodies -- Tommy, help me out here, if you will, 14 please. Other courts that do this heed very seriously to 15 the fact that any member of the Court can -- can pull 16 anything off at any time for open discussion and so forth 17 and so on. And I believe when I chatted with Tommy about 18 this -- and if you'll confirm this for me, Tommy, I'd 19 appreciate it -- that in our packet, our packet in advance 20 of the court meeting, this one, would still have those items 21 in it. So, if you had a question with respect to any budget 22 item -- is that correct? -- that it would be there, and 23 you're welcome to question it to any extent you wish to do 24 so. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, I would look at it 4-14-03 45 1 as -- as approval by -- maybe by exception. If there's -- 2 if there's an exception that -- or one particular item 3 that any member of the Court might want to -- to discuss 4 outside of the consent agenda will be fine. I mean, 5 there -- I know at the end of the year, you know, budget 6 amendments are really -- you know, we get as high as 25 and 7 30 of those in a meeting. There's -- and, basically, 8 they're -- they're for transferring amounts from one account 9 to the other that are -- that are actually not, you know, 10 increasing the budget. I think if you have an item that -- 11 that you have to increase the budget, I think that would be 12 an exception. 13 There's -- you know, we've discussed this 14 before in the budget process, but there is one way to avoid 15 budget amendments, and it's expensive, but you -- you can do 16 that through -- through a purchasing agent with purchase 17 orders, where all purchases are approved either -- either by 18 the County Judge or by my office prior to -- to purchase. 19 So, if there's a need for a transfer of funds, then -- then 20 the department head that orders those -- those supplies or 21 whatever it is has opportunity to determine, you know, where 22 those funds need to come from. And it would require 23 someone, you know, full-time to -- to implement that 24 procedure, but there are a lot of counties in the state 25 that -- that do that, that are our -- you know, that are our 4-14-03 46 1 size. So, that's something that the Court might -- might 2 consider. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I appreciate the Commissioners 4 looking at trying to obtain a degree of efficiency, and I -- 5 I can see where that -- that process, at least, even in 6 part, might increase efficiency. Insofar as saving time, 7 we're here doing the public's business and they have every 8 right to know what we're doing, and I don't want the public 9 to have any thought or idea that they're not or could not be 10 privy to every single dime that we spend or every action 11 that we take as it concerns the public, especially with 12 regard to the economic items. Some of the reports may be 13 not -- I'm not quite as concerned about that. Those 14 certainly are available for public examination and review, 15 just as we have them available to us. But the economic 16 issues, as Commissioners Baldwin and Letz and Nicholson 17 indicated, those are certainly something we want to do open, 18 on top of the table. 19 My concern is maybe the scheduling of those 20 things; that it might be better for the public to take up 21 the matters where there are items that need to be discussed 22 or debated, or in which there are various members of the 23 public that have input. I don't want to inconvenience the 24 public any more than -- than is absolutely necessary. What 25 we might consider doing is taking that portion of the agenda 4-14-03 47 1 and putting it at the tail end, and then if there are any 2 members of the public that wish to look at these particular 3 routine items along with us, certainly, they can stay and do 4 so. But on the normal items that are open for discussion 5 and debate and input from the public, we could get to those 6 quicker, and maybe that would be a reasonable alternative to 7 what -- what you're suggesting. And I don't know if -- if 8 the input you've received includes some sort of distress 9 from public members that y'all go through these routine 10 things and we're kind of hung on a hook here until you get 11 to us. This would solve that problem, I think, so that 12 might be an alternative. If that -- if that's the desire of 13 the Court, certainly, as the one that approves the agenda, I 14 can make that change real easily. I can make it happen just 15 as -- just as quickly as Ms. Sovil and I work together -- 16 correction, as she works to put together the agenda, and 17 then submits to it me for approval. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In that area, I wouldn't 19 mind leaving it to the end. I think it needs to be a timed 20 spot, because we frequently have other members -- other -- 21 you know, Tommy and frequently people that are requesting 22 budget amendments, we ask them to come and present the 23 budget amendment, and I think that, you know, if we move it, 24 like, to 11 o'clock or so, as a timed thing every day and we 25 have to go to that, because I think it's also -- I mean, 4-14-03 48 1 generally, those things don't take more than 15, 20 minutes. 2 Usually by 9:30 we're going into the agenda, and I think 3 most people coming from the public, you know, are aware of 4 that. But if we, you know, move it just at the end, 5 sometimes that could be 2 o'clock in the afternoon, 6 sometimes it could be 10:30, and I think that's really an 7 inconvenience to a lot of the other elected officials and 8 County employees as to -- makes it so they can't do anything 9 for most of the day, 'cause they don't know when we're going 10 to get there. If it goes to the end, I don't have a 11 problem, but I think it needs to be a timed spot. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, in that regard, I would 13 suggest that when we're dealing with County employees, we 14 can get them here a whole lot quicker on short notice than 15 we can the members of the public that have taken time out of 16 their schedule and have made arrangements to be here on 17 items of public business. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree, I mean, but 19 there's -- the taxpayers are paying an employee to sit here 20 as opposed to doing what they're being paid to do. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it goes -- goes 23 both ways. I'd say if we do it later, I think it needs to 24 be timed. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll do it any way you guys 4-14-03 49 1 want to, if you want to give me your guidance. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me suggest, 3 Judge, that you think about what might be a better way, and 4 we'll just pass over on this. If we need to bring it back 5 to another time, we can do that. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: What I may do is -- next 7 go-around is move it and see how it works from a timed 8 standpoint, and if it works, fine. We'll kind of keep 9 rolling that-a-way. If it doesn't work, we'll try something 10 else, if that's acceptable. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. My 12 suggestion would be -- is that we keep Items 3, 4, and 8 for 13 the -- up front at the front end of the meeting, and then 14 the rest of it, you can come in here at midnight, far as I 15 care. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 3, 4, and 8? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 3, 4, and 8. Payment 18 of bills, budget line item changes, and equipment purchases. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, 8. Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See what I'm saying? 21 Out of that group. And do them while -- if for no other 22 reason, is to let the public know what's going on with their 23 money. And then these other things, these resolutions and 24 proclamations can be done at the end. That would be fine. 25 That would be -- that's what I would do if it were me. 4-14-03 50 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I appreciate that input. 2 It is now a few minutes after 10 o'clock. We have a timed 3 item, which is the public hearing for revision of plat, 4 Tract Number 48 and 49A. So, at this point, I will recess 5 the Commissioners Court meeting and we will go into a public 6 hearing on the revision of the plat for Tract Number 48 and 7 49A, Kerrville Country Estates, Section Two, in Volume 4, 8 Page 131 of the Plat Records. 9 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:07 a.m., and a public hearing 10 was held in open court, as follows:) 11 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Who do we have here on that 13 particular issue? Any members of the public wishing to 14 speak on the revision of the plat in Tract Number -- Tracts 15 Number 48 and 49A, Kerrville Country Estates, Section Two, 16 as per the plat in Volume 4, Page 131? Any member of the 17 public wish to be heard on that issue? 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: There being no one so 20 indicating, I will close the public hearing, and I will call 21 to order the Commissioners Court meeting for this date. 22 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:08 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 23 meeting was reopened.) 24 - - - - - - - - - - 25 JUDGE TINLEY: And we will proceed to Item 4-14-03 51 1 2.5 in the consideration agenda, that being the 2 consideration of the approval of final revision of the plat 3 for Tracts Number 48 and 49A, Kerrville Country Estates, 4 Section Two, in Volume 4, Page 131 of the Plat Records. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Franklin, what do -- 6 what exactly what are we doing here? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: We are dividing a lot, 49A, 8 into to two parts, 49A-1 and 49A-2. And that is -- 48 -- 9 what did he do to his -- 10 MR. VOELKEL: I wanted to add on there, what 11 Franklin has just said is correct. 49 has been divided into 12 two 5-acre tracts; it existed as a 10-acre tract. 48 is -- 13 the adjoining property owner is replatting his lot to remove 14 an L.C.R.A. easement that was on his tract. If you look up 15 in the upper left-hand corner, as it is platted, you see 16 just a little bit of 48 has an easement across it. In 17 reality, that easement does not exist; that was done back in 18 the late '70's when the original plat of Kerrville Country 19 Estates was filed. We're adding that to it to remove the 20 easement from his property, and it just so happens that the 21 man that owns that tract is also going to purchase the 22 adjoining 49A-2, so he'll have all of his property properly 23 platted at that time. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mr. Voelkel, is this 25 -- is this in the ETJ? 4-14-03 52 1 MR. VOELKEL: Yes, sir, it is. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: City of Kerrville? 3 MR. VOELKEL: Yes, sir, it is. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Have you had to go 5 before the City to do the same thing? 6 MR. VOELKEL: That's correct, yes, sir. We 7 have gone to the City with a public hearing, which has 8 already taken place, and the plat has been approved by the 9 City. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to point out 11 here that this is just one of the most simple things that we 12 ever do. The guy's taking a line out and adding a line in 13 on his own property. We have caused him months of work to 14 do, and he not only has the expense of coming to this 15 government body, but he goes over to the City, and it's a 16 simple -- moving a line. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Cost him a lot. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Costing him a lot of 19 money and time. And it's -- you know, it's right out there 20 on the edge of being insane. I mean, this is crazy. We're 21 actually causing people to spend money for absolutely no 22 reason. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: How can we fix that? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it's supposed to 25 be fixed. You know, the law allows us to -- the City and 4-14-03 53 1 the County to get together to make -- we can make a decision 2 whether we want to go to the City or go with the County so 3 they don't have -- a person doesn't have to go to both 4 bodies. And we have asked the City to put something 5 together, and I just -- I don't know what -- what has 6 happened to it. But, my god, this is a -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought we had a 8 state-imposed deadline of a year ago to have accomplished 9 that. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We did. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But it's a travesty 12 what we're causing our citizens to go through to maintain 13 their own property. I don't get it. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, the City/County 15 part, you know, needs to be worked out; I think will get 16 worked out at one point, but the other part of it, it's 17 state law. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I agree with you, 20 it's a -- I mean, the State has made platting -- you know, 21 trying to get rid of a lot of loopholes that do exist. They 22 made this type of situation very difficult. We have gone 23 with a -- created a, quote, abbreviated, quick, I mean, 24 process, but it still costs a lot of money. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It does. Mr. Evans 4-14-03 54 1 has been -- been really nice, by some standards. I've seen 2 -- I've seen the red rise up his neck a couple of times, and 3 it's been fairly unpleasant in my office several times. 4 But, nevertheless, he's agreed with us and he's done 5 absolutely everything that the County Engineer's office has 6 asked him to do, and my hat's off to him. I would not go 7 through all this. But thank you for doing that. But -- so 8 let's don't keep the guy any longer than we have to. 9 MR. VOELKEL: Let me make one other comment, 10 if I could, Commissioner, and it's just kind of added on to 11 the frustrations. Again, as I've stated, the City has 12 approved the plat with a public hearing. They have had the 13 films to sign. I went over this morning to get those, and 14 they are not signed by the City yet. I think what they 15 would like to do is get the County to get it signed, bring 16 it back to them. I'm not sure if they're worried about who 17 goes first or who goes last, but you will notice the films 18 this morning have their signatures to get, even though they 19 have been approved by them. So, just a little bit more 20 frustration. That would be more personal, I guess, than 21 Mr -- what Mr. Evans has been through. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'd be happy to show 23 some leadership here. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just have one quick 25 question. 4-14-03 55 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, no more questions. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For the record -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have to hold them 4 to the end of the meeting. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For the record, the 6 easement has been officially abandoned; is that correct? 7 MR. VOELKEL: That's correct yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move that 9 we -- for approval of the final revision of plat, Tract 10 Number 48 and 49A of Kerrville Country Estates, Section Two. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 14 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Letz, respectively, 15 that we approve the final revision of the plat for Tract 16 Number 48 and 49A, Kerrville Country Estates. Any further 17 discussion? All in favor, signify by raising your right 18 hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mr. Evans, how long 24 have we been at this? 25 MR. EVANS: I've been actually trying to buy 4-14-03 56 1 it since last May. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Last May. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for your 5 patience. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, do you want to 7 take our morning break now? Since our next item is timed at 8 10:30, and I don't know if we have time to do the Stablewood 9 Springs between now and 10:30. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It would be nice, 11 though, to push it on through. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a good suggestion, 13 Commissioner Letz. Why don't we recess until 10:30. At 14 that time, then, we'll take those matters up. 15 (Recess taken from 10:15 a.m. to 10:30 a.m.) 16 - - - - - - - - - - 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. If we could, please, 18 let's come back to order, reconvene the meeting scheduled 19 for Monday, April 14th. Next item on the agenda is a public 20 hearing, so I will -- after returning to order, I will now 21 recess the Commissioners Court meeting and convene a public 22 hearing on the revision of the plat for Site 15 of J.L. 23 Nichols Subdivision in Precinct 4. 24 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:31 a.m., and a public hearing 25 was held in open court, as follows:) 4-14-03 57 1 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the 3 public hearing that wishes to be heard with respect to a 4 plat revision of Site 15 of J.L. Nichols Subdivision, which 5 lies in Precinct 4? There was notice given of the meeting 6 of the public hearing. Is there anybody that wishes to be 7 heard on that? Any member of the public? 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Seeing no indication of any 10 desire of public participation, I will close the public 11 hearing for the revision of plat of Site 15 of J.L. Nichols 12 Subdivision, Precinct 4, and I will reconvene the 13 Commissioners Court meeting scheduled for April 14th. 14 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:32 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 15 meeting was reopened.) 16 - - - - - - - - - - 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 2.7, consider for 18 approval the final revision of plat, Site 15 of J.L. Nichols 19 subdivision, lying in Precinct 4. Mr. Johnston? 20 MR. JOHNSTON: Recommend approval. This was 21 a division of a 5.27-acre tract into a 1.97- and a 3.25-acre 22 tract. It's on a public water system. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Johnston, this 24 is -- this is outside the Kerrville ETJ? 25 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, but it's in the Ingram 4-14-03 58 1 ETJ. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's in the 3 Ingram -- 4 MR. JOHNSTON: Ingram has not signed, but 5 they have an excuse that their meeting's tomorrow night, and 6 this is on their agenda. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions for 8 Mr. Johnston on this plat? 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move we grant 10 final approval of plat for Site 15 of J.L. Nichols 11 Subdivision. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion has been made and 14 seconded by Commissioners Nicholson and Williams, 15 respectively, that we approve the final plat -- final 16 revision of plat for Site 15 of J.L. Nichols Subdivision 17 located in Precinct 4. Is there any further discussion? 18 Being none, all in favor of the motion, signify by raising 19 your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Thank you, 24 sir. Want me to sign off on it now? 25 (Discussion off the record.) 4-14-03 59 1 MR. JOHNSTON: Do you want the owner's 2 representative to take the plat to the -- I think he's on 3 the Ingram City Council meeting to have it signed by them 4 tomorrow, so you can let him have them record it, or you'll 5 record it or whatever. 6 MR. BRINKMAN: I'll take it to them, yeah. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. The next item on 8 the agenda is 2.8, consider the final plat approval of 9 Stablewood Springs Ranch Condominium in Precinct 4. I would 10 note that we have a number of participation forms that have 11 been forwarded to me in connection with this matter, and I 12 would first call upon the County Engineer, and then after 13 his presentation, I will go through the public participation 14 requests. 15 MR. JOHNSTON: I think the questions we had 16 during the preliminary plat have been resolved. An issue 17 came up about having four detention ponds that were outside 18 the subdivision -- outside the control of the subdivision, 19 and that's been resolved by a matter of an easement granted 20 to the owners -- homeowners of the subdivision, that they 21 may at any time enter those ponds for the purpose of 22 maintenance if the owner of that land does not maintain them 23 according to their current condition. Did I state that 24 right? Okay. That was the issue of access to those ponds. 25 The -- we had a drainage study prepared by Domingues and 4-14-03 60 1 Associates. It has been reviewed by three other engineering 2 companies. I think they're -- the comments are in your 3 packet. I think that was the major exception. There were a 4 couple other -- other items that I think we have, being 5 maintenance on the existing berms, I believe, in the 6 subdivision. And that -- I think with the exception of 7 that, they all kind of agree. So I think that the matter of 8 drainage has been resolved, whereby the entire -- the entire 9 100-year frequency drainage of the -- of the tract is 10 retained in holding detention ponds, then slowly released. 11 So, actually, the post-construction runoff is less than the 12 preconstruction runoff. And the construction of those 13 detention ponds and berms are covered under a letter of 14 credit, so they'd be inspected and guaranteed, whereas the 15 road paving is also a letter of credit which they have 16 turned in to our office. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question about 18 something you just said. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: Mm-hmm? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Runoff is less 21 post-construction than preconstruction. Do you mean that? 22 Or do you mean the rate of the runoff? 23 MR. JOHNSTON: Let me ask the experts. It's 24 also -- it's the rate and the -- the total quantity of water 25 that's retained, and -- 4-14-03 61 1 MR. DOMINGUES: The cubic feet per second of 2 water. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the rate of 4 the runoff, not the runoff itself. 5 MR. DOMINGUES: It's the quantity of the 6 water. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Quantity or the flow? 8 MR. DOMINGUES: Well, the flow is all built 9 into that, but that is the quantity of water that comes off 10 of the hills. 11 MR. JOHNSTON: I think he's correct. The 12 cubic feet per second is the rate of flow, not the velocity. 13 It's the rate. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The total amount of runoff 15 that will be handled will be the same, or possibly a little 16 bit more because of impervious ground cover, but the rate of 17 flow as it goes off the property by virtue of the 18 construction of these detention ponds and -- and release 19 mechanisms will be less. Is that a correct statement? 20 MR. DOMINGUES: Well, it's the cubic feet, 21 quantity of water that is -- that is -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: The flow rate. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's the flow rate. 24 MR. DOMINGUES: The flow of water. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 4-14-03 62 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 2 MR. DOMINGUES: It's a -- about 50 percent 3 less going through the ponds on a two-year frequency, and 4 about 10 percent less going through a 100-year frequency. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. Based upon 6 -- you indicated that these detention facilities were 7 actually off-site, not within the site? 8 MR. JOHNSTON: Four of them were. Some of 9 them are on-site, but four of them are off-site. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Have the necessary legal 11 documents been drafted and signed, or are ready for 12 signature for this maintenance monitoring situation? Are 13 those in place, ready to go? 14 MR. JACKSON: We're ready to sign those today 15 as soon as this session is over. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. They've been 17 approved by all the parties in interest that have been 18 involved in this? 19 MR. JACKSON: I've sent them to everybody, 20 yes. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. 22 MR. JACKSON: In fact, what we would want to 23 have happen is the actual plat that we're now going to 24 record be held until those documents are recorded. I 25 understand you want to see those signatures, and I'm 4-14-03 63 1 prepared to do that. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Good. Thank you. Appreciate 3 that, Mr. Jackson. Anybody have anything? 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. I'd like to 5 say that this has been a long process, and I know all the 6 parties have been frustrated with it, and I admire and 7 appreciate the work that's been done lately by all the 8 parties, the developers, Mr. Johnston, attorney Jackson, and 9 the neighbors of Stablewood to try to bring this to a 10 resolution where everybody will be at least satisfied that 11 they're going to be able to live together, and thank y'all 12 for working on that. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further of Mr. 14 Johnston by anybody on the Court? Thank you. Mr. Jackson, 15 did you have any more comments you would want to make? 16 MR. JACKSON: I'm just here to answer any 17 questions that there might be. I think the one significant 18 thing since our last meeting is we've gotten the signatures, 19 as you'll see; we put them on there. We're using the 20 disclaimer that you suggested. That's been submitted and 21 obviously approved by Frank, and so we're straight on all 22 that process. We're going to record a plat after all those 23 discussions and tell the folks that they need to read all 24 these pieces of paper that we talked about. But I have 25 nothing to add, unless there's a question that I can respond 4-14-03 64 1 to. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, good. Thank you 3 for making yourself available. Ms. Mary Hart Frost? 4 MS. FROST: Yes, thank you. My name is Mary 5 Hart Frost, and my husband and I are owners of a home on 6 Lots 27 and 28 in the Bumble Bee Hills Subdivision along 7 Bumblebee Creek. I also share ownership of property with my 8 cousins at Pleasure Hill, which is a family development 9 established in the 1920's. Both of these properties abut 10 the proposed Stablewood Springs Ranch Condominium 11 subdivision, and have been adversely affected by stormwater 12 runoff flooding during the road building and home site 13 preparation of this development. I started attending 14 Commissioners Court meetings in February of 2002 in order to 15 learn about the Kerr County Subdivision Rules and 16 Regulations and to be an informed representative for 17 numerous cousins, friends, and neighbors who own property at 18 Pleasure Hill and in Bumble Bee Hills regarding water 19 availability issues and stormwater runoff protection issues. 20 I also began to attend meetings of the Upper Guadalupe River 21 Authority and the Headwaters Groundwater Conservation 22 District to educate myself about ways to protect Bumblebee 23 Creek, the Guadalupe River, and the Trinity Aquifer from 24 pollution and depletion. As more subdivisions like 25 Stablewood Springs Ranch will be proposed for development in 4-14-03 65 1 west Kerr County in the coming months and years, I plan to 2 continue to attend these meetings and stay informed on ways 3 to protect this beautiful and unique environment in our 4 Texas hill country. 5 We want to thank the Court, including former 6 County Judge Fred Henneke and former precinct chairman -- 7 Precinct 4 Commissioner Larry Griffin, Judge Pat Tinley, 8 Commissioner Dave Nicholson, Commissioner Jonathan Letz, 9 Commissioner Bill Williams, and Commissioner Buster Baldwin; 10 also, County Attorney David Motley and Commissioners Court 11 Coordinator Thea Sovil for their accessibility, attention, 12 and rulings during this platting process. We also want to 13 thank the County Clerk's office and staff and Kerr County 14 Road and Bridge Engineer Franklin Johnson and staff, Truby 15 Hardin and Iva Glass, for their cooperation in providing 16 access to and copies of open meeting records regarding the 17 platting of the Stablewood Springs Ranch Subdivision. We 18 wish to express appreciation to attorney David Jackson and 19 representatives of Stablewood Springs Ranch for meeting with 20 us on Wednesday, April 9th, 2003, at the Kerr County Road 21 and Bridge district office, to discuss concerns about the 22 hydrology issues regarding stormwater runoff. Mr. Jackson 23 provided us a copy to review of the drainage easement he 24 drafted for Ponds 1 through 4. 25 For the record -- okay. For the record, we 4-14-03 66 1 would like to state that we still have substantial concerns 2 about Ponds 1 through 4 being part of the drainage detention 3 system for Stablewood Springs Ranch Subdivision. This is 4 because it is our contention that one of the detention ponds 5 is in the 100-year floodplain, and all four detention ponds 6 are on private property owned by Mr. Tom Fatjo, Jr., and are 7 not included within the boundaries of the platted 8 subdivision. Thank you again for the opportunity to appear 9 before you today and to represent my family, friends, and 10 neighbors in our concerns about this development. Some of 11 them are present here this morning, and I would like to 12 recognize them by asking them to stand. Thanks very much 13 for coming this morning. Do any of you have any questions 14 for me? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Gentlemen? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have any 17 questions, but I want to say thank you. This is -- you're a 18 perfect example of the way government should work. 19 MS. FROST: Thank you. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll echo that. Thank 21 you. We've had many discussions on this for a couple of 22 years, and I appreciate all -- I appreciate your concern for 23 the environment and the community where you live. 24 MS. FROST: You'll be seeing me more. I'm 25 not going away. 4-14-03 67 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait a minute, let's 2 rethink this a little bit. (Laughter.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Frost, we appreciate your 4 being here and your diligence, and -- and you've gone to 5 considerable difficulty just to round up this family and 6 drag them in here. 7 MS. FROST: That's right. That's right. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: You've got a pretty good group 9 there with you. We appreciate all of y'all being here. 10 Thank you very much. 11 MS. FROST: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mary Hart Frost and 13 I share an interest in good water management, and we've 14 considered starting carpooling, we go to so many of the same 15 meetings. 16 MS. FROST: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's pretty funny. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Mrs. Catherine Fox. You wish 19 to be heard? 20 MS. FOX: Yes, thank you. My name is 21 Catherine Fox. My family and my parents both own property 22 adjacent to Stablewood Springs Ranch, as well as riverfront 23 creek property located less than 1 mile downstream from the 24 development on the confluence of Bumblebee Creek and the 25 Guadalupe River. I concur with Mrs. Frost. Thanks to all 4-14-03 68 1 parties who have been involved in the process of platting 2 for Stablewood. With regard to last Wednesday's April 9th, 3 2003 meeting, which Mrs. Frost has already mentioned, all 4 parties present agreed to the following: Number one, that 5 the development's drainage facilities, including all 6 impoundments, will be inspected upon completion by the 7 County. Number two, that the elements of the drainage plan 8 be included in the Letter of Credit put up by the 9 development. Number three, that a legal perpetual drainage 10 easement contract is in place between the development and 11 the adjacent property owner on whose property Detention 12 Ponds 1 through 4 are located. Number four, that all 13 impoundments, both within and outside the development, will 14 be perpetually maintained. Number five, that debris 15 protectors or trash traps, as they are commonly called, will 16 be in place on Impoundments 7 and 8. Therefore, we formally 17 ask that the Court approve the final plat of Stablewood 18 Springs Ranch, only on the condition that these agreed upon 19 assurances are met. 20 Furthermore, for the record, I would like to 21 state that although the County Engineer, Franklin Johnston, 22 the hydrology study formulators, Domingues and Associates, 23 and the developer, T.J.F. Ranch, Incorporated, Tom Fatjo, 24 are apparently satisfied with Detention Ponds 1 through 4, 25 my family and several other neighbors owning property 4-14-03 69 1 downstream on Bumblebee Creek are not. Our concerns remain. 2 Number one, the ponds are not within the platted area. 3 Number two, one of the ponds is located within the 100-year 4 floodplain. Number three, the hydrology study does not 5 address Ponds 1 through 4 in enough detail, especially given 6 the fact that the ponds already contain some water. As 7 these ponds channel water into the Bumblebee Creek floodway, 8 then through the 100-year floodplain, and then through a 9 nearby subdivision that is downstream, and then directly 10 into the Guadalupe River, all within a distance of less than 11 1 mile, we firmly believe that our concerns are not 12 unfounded. The power and velocity, or rate, as you refer to 13 it, of the stormwater during a rapid flood event in the 14 Texas hill country is something that many an individual has 15 underestimated. May God protect us all during the next 16 100-year flood event. 17 Finally, we hope our concerns prove to be 18 unfounded. We are grateful that Stablewood Springs Ranch 19 has been downsized to the present 17 home sites, as this 20 will be helpful to some degree during the past years. We 21 welcome those that purchase undivided interests in the ranch 22 to west Kerr County officially. We feel certain that they 23 will eventually fall in love with the area that we call 24 home. I would also like to address a comment that 25 Mr. Domingues made earlier. He stated that the quantity of 4-14-03 70 1 water will be less according to the hydrology study. 2 However, the rate or velocity will not be less before it 3 leaves the development, because the impoundments on the west 4 side -- because the impoundments that control that water are 5 not within the platted area. The drainage easement legal 6 document that David Jackson provided us with does give some 7 protection, but hypothetically -- excuse me -- there is 8 still room for certain things to go wrong, and that is why 9 we have accepted every other aspect of Stablewood Springs 10 Ranch except those four impoundments. Thank you. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Frost, the conditions that 12 you mentioned -- 13 MS. FOX: Mrs. Fox. Frost, Fox. 14 (Laughter.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Fox. 16 MS. FOX: Yes, sir? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The conditions that you 18 mentioned, that you indicated that there was agreement -- 19 a bargain struck, as it were, between you and your family 20 and the attorney for the developer and the developers -- 21 MS. FOX: And the County Engineer. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: -- and the County Engineer, 23 all parties in interest, those are the same ones that you 24 heard Mr. Franklin Johnston indicate that had been resolved; 25 is that correct? 4-14-03 71 1 MS. FOX: Some of them. He did not mention 2 that the County would inspect, and he also did not mention 3 the drainage traps, the trash traps or debris collectors 4 that will be placed on Impoundments 7 and 8. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me ask Mr. Jackson. 6 You heard Mrs. Fox' conditions as outlined when she just 7 addressed the Court, did you not, sir? 8 MR. JACKSON: I did. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And is it your understanding, 10 as the attorney representing the developer, that the 11 developer has agreed to those contingencies and conditions? 12 MR. JACKSON: Yes, absolutely. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 14 MS. FOX: Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Fox. I 16 appreciate it. And my apologies for doing the same thing 17 again. 18 MS. FOX: That's okay. Thank you. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Andrew Bachofen? 20 MR. BACHOFEN: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that correct, sir? 22 MR. BACHOFEN: Yes, sir. I'm Andrew 23 Bachofen. I live at 173 Bearskin Trail, Kerr County. I 24 also have property off Pleasure Hill. I have one question, 25 and that is, is there anything in these documents to state 4-14-03 72 1 that these impoundment ponds will be empty except for runoff 2 water? And is there any -- are you going to be inspecting 3 these ponds to insure that is taking place in the future? 4 Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good question. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Johnston, do you have an 7 answer to that, the gentleman's questions? 8 MR. JOHNSTON: All the ponds on the -- on 9 the -- in the subdivision are empty -- normally empty. The 10 three that they've been talking about that are off-site -- 11 four that are off-site have a normal flow of water in them, 12 and the -- the retainage in those areas is from the normal 13 flow of water to the top of the spillways. Is that right? 14 MR. DOMINGUES: Yes, sir. 15 MR. JOHNSTON: That's the retainage area. It 16 will flow out through the drainpipe at a controlled rate. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: They're bottom-draining -- all 18 of the four off-site ponds are bottom-draining ponds? Is 19 that what you're telling me? 20 MR. JOHNSTON: There's an overflow pipe that 21 maintains the steady level, the normal flow. And the pond 22 will fill up during a heavy rain, and then it will go back 23 down to that level through the drainage pipe. It's not at 24 the bottom; it's through the -- what, a certain heighth on 25 the dam? 4-14-03 73 1 MR. DOMINGUES: Right. The ones in the 2 subdivision, Your Honor, are ones that will not have any 3 water in them. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 5 MR. DOMINGUES: Bottom-draining pond, yes, 6 sir. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: But the off-site ponds have 8 a -- have a spillway control, but there's also a drainage 9 mechanism below the spillway to assist in -- in releasing 10 water? 11 MR. DOMINGUES: Yes, sir. There -- there is 12 a pipe -- a pipe on one, and then also there is a valid 13 drainage area, and then there's also the top of the area, so 14 it starts going through the pipe first in a flood. Then it 15 goes through the -- the weir-type area, and then if 16 necessary goes over the top, okay? And all of that is 17 retained. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: So I think the answer to the 19 gentleman's question is that, even in normal times, if 20 there's been significant runoff into the pond, there will be 21 probably some water left remaining in there up to the level 22 of the lowest pipe. Is that what you're telling me? 23 MR. DOMINGUES: Right. Yes, sir, up to the 24 bottom of the level of the lower pipe. 25 MR. JOHNSTON: Those four off-stream 4-14-03 74 1 detention ponds, they have water in them normally at all 2 times, right? Detention area is from the normal level to 3 the top of the overflow. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Does that answer your 5 question, sir? 6 MR. BACHOFEN: I have one further question. 7 Any other source of water going into any of these ponds 8 other than rain runoff? 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 MR. JACKSON: Spring water, I guess. 11 MR. BACHOFEN: That's rain runoff. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Just normal runoff? 13 MR. BACHOFEN: Yes. Is there any other 14 source of water? Is there any pumped water from the river 15 or any wells going into these? 16 MR. JACKSON: No. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: Four ponds aren't maintained 18 by a pumping system. 19 MR. JACKSON: The wells aren't used, and the 20 Guadalupe matter has been turned off completely for several 21 months. I just wanted to add that the easement document 22 requires that the water level be at that -- that pipe stuff. 23 In other words, the owner has that responsibility. Plus the 24 question was inspections. The owners have been given the 25 right, obviously, to go look, and if the owner doesn't 4-14-03 75 1 maintain those facilities -- water level as well as 2 facilities themselves, then the owners can come in and 3 repair it, just to the same extent as they could on any of 4 the other drainage facilities on their own pump. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Jackson. Does 6 that sufficiently address all of your questions, sir? 7 MR. BACHOFEN: Yes, sir, thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Good. Thank you. The next 9 individual that's indicated a desire to speak is Judith A. 10 Trolinger. Yes, ma'am. How are you this morning? 11 MS. TROLINGER: Good morning. I'm here as a 12 concerned citizen, and although I haven't been privy to all 13 of the chronology of what is taking place, I want my concern 14 also as part of the record to this. My name is Judith Ann 15 Trolinger. Our mailing address is Ingram. My husband and I 16 are owners of a home on Pleasure Hill. All of us now living 17 on this property are descendants of the original owners. 18 Our part of Pleasure Hill has been in the Trolinger family 19 since 1911. My father-in-law retired here in 1967. We 20 retired here finally in 1991. When you make the turn off of 21 Highway 39 onto our road, we are the third house on the 22 left, so we are really downhill from the proposed Stablewood 23 Springs Ranch Condominium Subdivision and Ponds Number 1 24 through 4. And, yes, we have been adversely affected by 25 stormwater runoff during the road building and home site 4-14-03 76 1 preparation phase of this development. 2 Last year, a rainstorm devastated Kerrville. 3 We, too, had a lot of rain from that storm, but we've had 4 worse, but this is the first time we have ever had our home 5 flooded. The runoff from the various rainstorms we have had 6 since the development started has created a small ditch 7 almost the entire length of the county road. This road runs 8 between the drainage ditch on one side and Hughes' on the 9 other, and is being eroded away. This road is our only way 10 out of Pleasure Hill, and if it caves in, there is very 11 little room to rebuild. My husband and I also would like to 12 express appreciation to attorney David Jackson and 13 representatives of the Stablewood Springs Ranch for meeting 14 with Mary Frost and the others on Wednesday, April 9th, 15 2003, at the Kerr County Road and Bridge district office to 16 discuss concerns about the hydrology issues regarding 17 stormwater runoff. We were provided a copy for review of 18 the drainage easement Mr. Jackson drafted for Ponds 1 19 through 4. 20 For the record, we would like to state that 21 we still have substantial concerns about these ponds being 22 part of the drainage retention system for Stablewood Springs 23 Ranch Subdivision. This is because Pond Number 4, as I 24 understand it, is in the 100-year floodplain, and all four 25 ponds are on private property owned by Mr. Joe -- excuse me, 4-14-03 77 1 Mr. Tom Fatjo, Jr., and are not included within the 2 boundaries of the platted subdivision. More subdivisions 3 like Stablewood Springs Ranch will be proposed for 4 development in west Kerr County in the coming months and 5 years. If we don't take care now, the erosion of the land 6 and the drain on our water supply is going to be tremendous. 7 Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much, 9 Ms. Trolinger. Those are the only individuals who have 10 filled out a participation form to speak on this issue. 11 Unless Mr. Jackson has something further to offer? 12 MR. JACKSON: No, Your Honor. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Is there anyone else 14 here that, even though they may not have filled out a 15 participation form, desires to be heard on this particular 16 issue? We'd be happy to hear from you now. 17 MS. FOX: May I say one more thing? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, Ms. Fox. 19 MS. FOX: Thank you. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Please come 21 forward. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You got it right, 23 Judge. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, I got it right that 25 time. She allowed me the opportunity to redeem myself, and 4-14-03 78 1 I appreciate that. 2 MS. FOX: Thank you, sir. I just wanted to 3 address one more thing that Mr. Domingues said a moment ago. 4 He said that a drainage valley area channels the water, 5 referring to the water from the four impoundments. That 6 drainage valley area is an unnamed tributary, an 7 intermittent unnamed tributary that channels into the other 8 intermittent unnamed tributary commonly known as Bumblebee 9 Creek, which also has another intermittent unnamed tributary 10 commonly known as Brushy Creek, which channels into it. 11 That is the bottom of the whole concern for Impoundments 1 12 through 4, because they have, by man's hand, been channeled 13 into all of that that I mentioned above. And below them, 14 within a very short distance, is the major large impoundment 15 on the development called -- I mean outside the development 16 on Bumblebee Creek known as the "lake" on your plat. And no 17 one, not even Mr. Domingues nor myself -- only God knows 18 exactly what will happen when we get the 100-year flood 19 event that decides to park itself directly to the north or 20 on Stablewood. And because those ponds cannot -- yes, they 21 can catch the quantity of water that is coming off, and 22 while I question, and so did Hearn Engineering, the capacity 23 of Pond Number 2 to some degree, that's a minor, incidental 24 thing. Our concern is the rate or the velocity of the water 25 and how fast it will come down and then go into those four 4-14-03 79 1 impoundments that already contain water, and then into a dam 2 that is full to the top, and then into the creek. And we've 3 said all we have to say, and we just hope that the terrible 4 thing never occurs. Thank you. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Fox. I'm going 6 to permit Mr. Domingues to respond to that, and hopefully 7 he'll have an answer that satisfies you. 8 MR. DOMINGUES: I guess one of the concerns 9 is velocity. Okay, let's start at the top of the hill where 10 the -- the slope of the land is greater than 20 percent. 11 Okay -- well, that's not the top. The top -- the very top 12 is only 6 percent, okay. Then it gradually goes off of 13 there, and the ground will -- will be on a 20 percent slope 14 approximately going down the hill, and that's the way a lot 15 of hills are in the hill country. There is a pond that 16 catches the water first, which is at a very high elevation. 17 Once the water goes down and catches into this pond, which 18 is -- I'm not sure how large the pond -- it's about 19 50-something feet long. The water velocity at that pond is 20 reduced to zero, because the pond is flat. Then it goes 21 down again at a 20 percent slope for a short distance, and 22 it is again reduced into a pond that is flat that is several 23 hundred feet long. So the velocity, again, of the water 24 going off the hill is reduced to zero, except for when you 25 start getting 100-year frequency floods, but the pond is so 4-14-03 80 1 long, the water that gets to that pond in any flood is 2 really going to be zero percent or zero velocity. Then it 3 drops down into another pond that's a short distance, and 4 it's dropped again down to zero velocity. And then it goes 5 kind of on a flat land down to the very large pond at the 6 bottom, Number 4, which is 200-something feet long, and the 7 velocity, again, is reduced to zero. So, the time that it 8 takes for the water, you know, to get from the top of the 9 hill to the very bottom is probably at least 50 percent 10 shorter in time than it was previously because of the fact 11 that you've got so many ponds that reduces the velocity to 12 zero. Otherwise, it would be coming down a 20 percent slope 13 at that velocity all the way down to the bottom. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me ask you, if I might, 15 Mr. Domingues, you made the comment a little bit ago that in 16 a -- a two-year term, that the velocity or the flow rate -- 17 MR. DOMINGUES: Quantity. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- would be reduced by 50 -- 19 MR. DOMINGUES: 50 percent. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: -- percent. 21 MR. DOMINGUES: Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: And then a 100-year 23 floodplain, a 100-year flood event, it would be reduced by 24 10 percent. 25 MR. DOMINGUES: 10 percent, yes, sir. 4-14-03 81 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Those numbers that we just 2 mentioned, do those apply to the flow rate as it leaves 3 what's denominated as the "lake" on the plat, which is 4 immediately adjacent to the southwest corner of the 5 development and leaves the Fatjo property? Would those 6 figures apply to the water leaving through that lake 7 impoundment area? 8 MR. DOMINGUES: Right. Yes, sir, that Number 9 4 lake impoundment area. 10 MR. JOHNSTON: From the contribution from the 11 subdivision, right. 12 MR. DOMINGUES: Right. Yes, sir. 13 MR. JOHNSTON: Whether or not it comes in on 14 the other -- those other branches, it doesn't -- doesn't 15 address that, but this subdivision is what they're talking 16 about. Amount of water leaving the subdivision. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: But it's going to reduce the 18 velocity and -- 19 MR. DOMINGUES: And the quantity. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: -- give you greater flow as it 21 leaves that lake? 22 MR. DOMINGUES: Yes, sir, Number 4 lake. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: As to whatever comes into that 24 series of ponds and through that -- that channel, as it may 25 be, as it leaves the lake immediately adjacent to the 4-14-03 82 1 southwest corner of the plat? 2 MR. DOMINGUES: Yes. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 4 MR. DOMINGUES: There is one thing I might 5 address. We talked to Stuart at Headwaters about the Number 6 4 pond being in a 100-year flood hazard area, which is 7 really a -- a drawn area, not a studied area of the FEMA, 8 and he indicated that there was no problem with it. And I 9 understand that he checked with FEMA, and FEMA said there 10 was no problem. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. Does that 12 kind of clarify your question, Ms. Fox, that you had? I 13 know you've still got lingering questions, because until you 14 see that 100-year event, none of us really know. We can 15 make a projection based upon engineering calculations and so 16 forth, but until it happens, I don't think any of us are 17 going to know for absolute certain. 18 MS. FOX: Right. I'm satisfied with the way 19 things are. We're on the record, and if anything happens, 20 we -- 21 MR. TROLINGER: Is the invitation to speak 22 without recording in advance still open? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, it certainly is. We're 24 still on this item. If you'd come forward and give your 25 name to the reporter? 4-14-03 83 1 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. John Trolinger. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Trolinger. 3 MS. TROLINGER: Thank you. All of these 4 calculations are based upon a storm cloud not over us, but 5 to the north of us. Now, we do have those occasions where 6 that happens, but more often than not the storm cloud covers 7 a considerably larger area, so the -- the retention ponds 8 will be influenced by the cloud to the north. But even 9 though the cloud, which normally occurs as they roll from 10 the gulf, will continually feed below the retention ponds 11 also, and so it's not -- the retention ponds are not being 12 fed solely from upstream, but they are being fed directly 13 from above and the impervious cover of the housing 14 development itself, and those roadways will continually 15 erode and roll to the south as well. So, the calculations 16 that have been cited are true for a very isolated storm, but 17 not for a typical storm. Thank you. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. We appreciate 19 that. Mr. Bachofen? 20 MR. BACHOFEN: Yeah. I just want to state 21 that you can't have zero flow and have water flowing out of 22 the tanks. As soon as those tanks are full, you no longer 23 have zero flow. And we don't know how long it's going to 24 take to fill these tanks in case of a rain. But I agree 25 that these tanks have -- starting out empty, will reduce the 4-14-03 84 1 amount of potential flooding along Bumblebee Creek. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I appreciate that. I think 3 Mr. Domingues' comment was that once they reach a flat 4 surface, from a mathematical, technical standpoint, they're 5 at zero. Now, that doesn't mean they're going to stay that 6 way, and you and I both know that they won't. But I 7 appreciate that. 8 MR. BACHOFEN: I notice that one -- one flood 9 reduces it by 50 percent; the other one only reduces it by 10 10 percent. That's 'cause all the tanks are full now. 11 There is probably going to be less water. And he's correct 12 when he says less water will be flowing out of them, because 13 if the rain stops, you're going to have evaporation; you're 14 also going to have water sinking down through the bottom of 15 these ponds. So, that -- that part was correct, but as far 16 as saying there's no flow when water runs out of it, that's 17 not right. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think they meant to 19 indicate that it was going to just cease to flow, but that's 20 a good point. Mr. Johnston, I'm concerned about this 21 roadway that we heard talk about considerable erosion on. 22 Is that the County right-of-way? 23 MR. JOHNSTON: I'm not sure what -- 24 MR. BACHOFEN: That's Pleasure Hill Road, and 25 it's been county-maintained since probably 1940, 1950. 4-14-03 85 1 MR. JOHNSTON: I'm not sure what our 2 right-of-way is on that. I'd have to do some research. May 3 be one of those prescriptive easement type things. But 4 there is a ditch next to it. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've looked at it. 6 It has experienced a considerable erosion in the last year, 7 and we're going to go out and look at it on Wednesday. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: These retention ponds 10 should -- should help that. But -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: But the road itself is still 12 passable at this point? 13 MR. BACHOFEN: Yes, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The erosion has taken place in 15 the area immediately adjacent to the road? 16 MR. JOHNSTON: In the ditch, right. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 MR. JOHNSTON: It's not cutting into the 19 road. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've heard so much 21 erosion -- mud was coming out of that last July, it blocked 22 Highway 39, so the Highway Department had to come out and 23 clean up Highway 39 before it was passable. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Because of the erosion that 25 took place there on that ditch? 4-14-03 86 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. So we're -- 2 based on the best technical advice we get, we're hoping that 3 this will -- this problem won't occur in the future, but we 4 do need to address the -- any damage that's been done to the 5 road. And the State Highway Department is out there now 6 working on their part of it, and we're going to be looking 7 at our part of it. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, if I might just 10 make a brief comment, I hear a lot of -- I mean, the 11 residents are very concerned about the 100-year floods and 12 that, and I think they are all very much aware that no one 13 knows for sure what's going to happen when that rain comes. 14 All we can do is, we have rules in place that we feel are 15 going to, you know, hopefully protect people. The eastern 16 part of the county has had two natural disaster floods in 17 the last three years, and I can assure you, we're -- I'm 18 very much aware that you just don't know. I mean, water 19 gets to a point, you know, of -- you know, one canyon gets 20 a -- you know, 10 inches of rain; the next canyon might not 21 get any. Water does some strange things; it can cut new 22 courses. The Guadalupe River is changing course three times 23 in the eastern part of the county right now. So, we fully 24 understand that we don't know exactly how the flood's going 25 to impact you, if it ever comes to your area. All we've 4-14-03 87 1 done is try to have rules in place that try to protect you 2 to the best of our ability, and that's what we've tried to 3 do. And it seems to me -- I mean, the developer and the 4 residents are all, you know, pretty much in agreement that 5 at least we have got to that threshold, and we just hope and 6 pray that the rains that we've had in the eastern county 7 recently don't go to the west, because we hope to spare 8 y'all that kind of devastation. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: And one other thing, too. I 10 think we ought to keep in mind that -- or keep in mind the 11 scope of what these studies cover. They're not covering a 12 whole area. They don't guarantee it won't rain, you know, 13 outside the subdivision in some other branch of these, you 14 know, tributaries. It's only over this particular 15 subdivision we're talking about. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's all we can 17 regulate and apply. 18 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: In other words, that which the 20 developer is obligated to take into account. 21 MS. TROLINGER: May I -- this is 22 extemporaneous this time; I don't have notes on this. I 23 guess, basically, one of the things that really concerns us 24 is that, no, we can't predict the 100-year flood. I think 25 we came close to it last year in Kerrville. '87 came -- 4-14-03 88 1 came pretty darn close. And this county road that is now on 2 Pleasure Hill was the original county road that horseshoed 3 around that road, horseshoed right around out to the road, 4 the -- there by the Bumblebee Creek bridge. 5 MS. FOX: That's never been a county road all 6 the way. 7 MS. TROLINGER: Well, or part of it. Well, 8 I'm going from what -- what family tradition has said, it's 9 part of the original county road. No, we can't predict 10 floods, but it's incredible what water can do, and people 11 still to this day do not respect that. But what's really 12 kind of sad about all of this -- and the development of our 13 county is growing. The assumption is on all of this that 14 this water is going to know, okay, we've got to run over and 15 go through these -- these four or eight ponds. Well, come 16 on. We're going to have houses out there. The rain is 17 going to pour off of those -- off of those roofs and off of 18 that ground. And when it rains, that -- our road turns in 19 almost to a river. And because that's our only way out, we 20 can't go anywhere, which is not a real big problem; we don't 21 mind being stranded at home. But we've had floods out there 22 a lot of times in which this drainage ditch, which I 23 understand is going to be part of the drainage system, fills 24 very rapidly, because it's not that big. But the main 25 concern is that water takes its own path, and it's not all 4-14-03 89 1 going to run into these ponds. We're already having 2 problems. As I mentioned, with the rain that we had last 3 year, our home, for the first time in a hundred years, 4 flooded. Now, fortunately, it -- I was able to clean the 5 carpeting and it didn't do tremendous damage that we know 6 of. But this is why we've been so concerned. And we 7 appreciate Stablewood and all. It's taken a long time, but 8 they have downsized, and they are -- seem to begin to 9 realize our concerns. All this, as we've known from -- from 10 the way roads are constructed, it looks good on paper. Oh, 11 we've got -- we've got all these ponds for the runoff. 12 Well, tell the water that. Thank you. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Trolinger. The 14 gentleman over here. Yes, sir? 15 MR. VLASEK: Yes, sir. My name is George 16 Vlasek. I've lived in spots right behind that place for 52 17 years. I don't know -- I'm sure Buster recalls the floods 18 in 1959. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do well, sir. 20 MR. VLASEK: And it rained all over, but it 21 rained up the north fork, up Boneyard and all up in there, 22 and that's what caused it, and we caught hell. But then you 23 say, well, this is a 100-year type flood. That's it. Well, 24 will it wait another hundred years? In 1960, it rained at 25 Bumblebee Hill, and then Comfort, all those places caught 4-14-03 90 1 hell. But that's what somebody brought up. We can't allude 2 that, okay, we had this big flood; we got to wait a long 3 time. Just like the freeze we had a number of years back; I 4 think it was about -- back in the '80's. The river froze 5 over; you could walk across it in places, and everybody 6 said, well, that just happens every once in a while. The 7 next winter everybody says it will be a mild winter. We had 8 14 inches of snow. So we can't deduce when it's going to 9 rain, where it's going to rain. But everyone must know why 10 we are concerned, because we've experienced it. That place 11 had a mat on it then. Well, mats are important. These 12 developers go in and they burn all that stuff off. They 13 ought to make them grind the stuff up, leave it on the 14 ground so that rain water can be absorbed and gradually 15 leaven with that mat on the ground. I had rocks next to my 16 house with mud out of Bumblebee, with cedar on there and 17 everything else as big as softballs, and too late to plant 18 grass, so I planted oats, barley, wheat, anything that would 19 do so we could get around. So, that's why we're concerned. 20 It's just not something that we've set up at night and think 21 about it. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate it, Mr. Vlasek. 23 Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to make a 25 comment, and Mr. Vlasek actually made my comments and I 4-14-03 91 1 appreciate that; that, you know, this -- these words of 2 "100-year floodplain," you know, we think, well, it's going 3 to be a hundred years before we get one. I mean, it 4 could -- there's a rain coming in tonight or tomorrow, I 5 think. I mean, it could happen right now. No, I'm not 6 wishing that. (Laughter.) At all. Do need a little 7 shower. But the 100-year floodplain, I think -- and -- you 8 know, and 40 ponds are not going to do any good. 9 AUDIENCE: That's right. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Anything to it. I 11 mean, you know, the only concern I really have on this thing 12 is this -- this pond -- Pond 4 being outside of the 13 subdivision and -- and being in the floodplain. I don't 14 know that -- I mean, it's not a big deal. I don't know why 15 U.G.R.A. would get involved; it has nothing to do with it. 16 I guess the floodplain deal. But, you know, if we get -- if 17 we get a rain like what they're talking about, it's -- you 18 know, those ponds are not going to help in any way, anyway. 19 But -- and my last point is that we can bring all the FEMA 20 maps here that we want. I'm still going to call George 21 Vlasek when I need advice on what's going on with that river 22 and how much rain we get. I trust Mr. Vlasek a lot more 23 than I do a FEMA map, I can tell you that. That's all. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Gentlemen? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Send money. 4-14-03 92 1 MR. VLASEK: And I'll interject something, 2 please. The phenomenon that causes all these massive 3 downpours in the hill country, according to the people in 4 the know -- I didn't figure it out -- when conditions are 5 right, usually in the fall -- October, watch out -- and at 6 other times, we have water coming off the coastal plain in 7 the form of heavily laden clouds with moisture, and they 8 roll and get to the Balcones Escarpment and they roll up and 9 get up into a phenomenon that just stays over us. And if we 10 get a triggering mechanism like a cold front that comes down 11 that's not too strong, all of that stuff milks down on us. 12 MS. FROST: I just want to make one more 13 comment, and that is that I hope that what you are hearing 14 is that we need to be much more careful about the kinds of 15 developments that we allow to come into west Kerr County, 16 because that's where I'm concerned. And I don't know about 17 your area, but I hope that all of you, and anyone else who 18 has any kind of authority or responsibility for these kind 19 of subdivisions coming into our Texas hill country, our Kerr 20 County, where the topography is very unique -- and you can't 21 really do a hydrology study that's going to be accurate, so 22 I'm just asking that we be more careful about letting a 23 subdivision like this come in with 5,000 square feet -- 24 5,000-square-foot homes, and 5,000-square-foot roofs for 25 that to come off of. Thank you. 4-14-03 93 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I do have one 2 question along -- while Mary's still at the podium. Mary, 3 you and Mrs. Fox both stated your concern about the ponds, 4 the detention ponds, being outside the platted subdivision, 5 but you didn't give a reason. I'll ask the question. Is 6 your concern -- does your concern have to do with the 7 dynamics or the functioning of the ponds, or does it have 8 more to do with the maintenance of the ponds? 9 MS. FROST: Both. If they had to do a 10 hydrology study that did not include those four ponds, it 11 would be a very different hydrology study. In other words, 12 if all of the detention ponds were contained within the 13 boundaries of the subdivision, the study that they turned in 14 would be inaccurate. So I have concerns about both. In 15 other words, you know, I -- I don't believe that those ponds 16 will do what they're designed to do, and so there's a 17 maintenance problem because it's not on the property. But, 18 basically, those detention ponds should all be within the 19 boundary of that subdivision. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Bachofen? Let's try and 22 get this wound up. 23 MR. BACHOFEN: When are they coming out and 24 work on Pleasure Hill Road? 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Sir? 4-14-03 94 1 MR. BACHOFEN: When did you say you were 2 going to have people come out and look at and work on 3 Pleasure Hill Road? I'll be there to meet them. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The road 5 administrator and I are going to go look at it on Wednesday 6 morning, meeting at 8 o'clock. 7 MR. BACHOFEN: Thank you. I'll make sure if 8 I'm not there, we'll have somebody there. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 10 MR. BACHOFEN: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Any breakfast or 12 coffee involved, I can go along. (Laughter.) 13 AUDIENCE: Krispy Kreme donuts. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We're meeting at the 15 Dam Cafe at 8:00 if you want to be there, Mr. Baldwin. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll be damned. Let's 17 vote. I want to vote on something. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Tell me what you want 19 to vote on. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll make a motion 21 we approve the final plat plan for Stablewood Springs Ranch 22 Condominium -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- Subdivision. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 4-14-03 95 1 seconded by Commissioners Nicholson and Baldwin, 2 respectively, that we approve the final plat of Stablewood 3 Springs Ranch Condominiums located in Precinct 4. Any 4 further discussion? All in favor, signify by raising your 5 right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Next 10 item is to consider and discuss and take appropriate action 11 to approve the use of Flat Rock Lake Park for a bike rally 12 on June 20th through the 22nd. Commissioner Nicholson. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This is a bike rally 14 that we've enjoyed before, but the first time that they've 15 stated they'd use the Flat Rock Lake Park for the rally. 16 Previously they used the -- the Ag Barn, and the -- the 17 escalating cost of the Ag Barn drove them to ask for an 18 alternative, less expensive place. That's -- so I'm not 19 sure this sort of thing requires Commissioners Court 20 approval. I did talk to Mr. Holekamp, and he's worked with 21 these people before, and he's aware of their plans and he's 22 fine with this, so I'm recommending that we grant approval 23 for them to use Flat Rock Lake Park. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question 25 that has to do with the use of electricity. Not the use of 4-14-03 96 1 the park; that's fine. I was under the impression that the 2 Chili Appreciation folks are the ones that put the meter in 3 on that pole where we're going to someday have a restroom, 4 and that being the case, who's going to be responsible for 5 the cost of that power? 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, after 7 I put that in there, I learned that they were bringing 8 generators, so I'm not sure that will even be an issue. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I, as well -- I don't 11 know that it requires court order or approval-type thing, 12 but -- but the information is fantastic. You know, if we 13 just moved forward with it, we would have never known that 14 it was going on. I appreciate you telling us about that, 15 number one. And then, number two, this group is making a -- 16 according to your notes here, making a donation to the 17 Sheriff's Department, someplace inside his department, and I 18 really appreciate that. That's neat. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We had -- as you 20 probably saw if you were out and about, we had bike rallies 21 this weekend. We have them pretty often. They're good 22 people; they leave a lot of money in Kerr County. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: There were a number of them 24 this past weekend. They provide high-dollar pieces of 25 equipment to various counties. 4-14-03 97 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move we give 2 permission to use the Flat Rock Lake Park. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 5 seconded by Commissioners Nicholson and Williams that we 6 grant approval for the use of Flat Rock Lake Park for a bike 7 rally on June 20th through 22nd of this year. Any further 8 discussion? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. How many -- 10 how many bikers are likely to attend this rally? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Joseph, have you 12 got an estimate? 13 MR. JOSEPH: My name is John Joseph; I'm the 14 one that's going to put the rally on. On the first rally, 15 from 500 to 1,000. The rally that I went to -- the one that 16 we had here last year in the Ag Barn went into, like, 1,100 17 or 1,200, and no problems whatsoever. No complaints. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My -- the reason I was 19 asking it is -- two. One, and I -- I was obviously putting 20 it on, making us aware of the needs to make sure the 21 Sheriff's Department is aware -- and I'm sure they are, 22 'cause they're making a donation to them -- about the rally. 23 So, you know, from an increased traffic standpoint in that 24 area. And the other one is trash. We don't have a -- 25 there's really not a -- 4-14-03 98 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not many trash -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not many trash cans, and 3 very small trash cans over there, and it dumps over into the 4 Ag Barn. So, we need to make sure that there are additional 5 trash receptacles there, whether it's -- I mean, my 6 preference would probably be if y'all go to B.F.I. to put 7 them there -- up there just for the weekend. 8 MR. JOSEPH: We can do that. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So the County doesn't 10 have to bear that expense, which we really don't have it in 11 our budget to take care of that. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And port-a-pottys. 13 MR. JOSEPH: We'll take care of that. 14 Everything will be taken care of. As far as electricity, we 15 did need the one pole that was there, and the only thing 16 that would be for is a stage. Musicians, with their 17 insurance, they don't -- their insurance won't cover the 18 generator surge into their equipment. They needed a pole. 19 We will pay for that electricity. Whatever they can -- 20 we'll have them read the meter before, read it after. 21 However -- whatever it takes, we'll -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would suggest you 23 contact Karl Buechler of the Chili Appreciation Society, 24 because they're putting on their big Easter event in the 25 park this weekend, I believe. 4-14-03 99 1 MR. JOSEPH: Karl's the one that suggested us 2 using it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If I'm not mistaken, 4 they put that meter in. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They put it in, but it's 6 the County's meter, 'cause we -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I hope it would be the 8 County's meter. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I talked to Mr. 10 Holekamp about it. He didn't say it wasn't the County's 11 meter. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know. I 13 honestly don't know. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's the County's 15 meter; we put money into it. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes, we talked about 17 that, whether we thought with this kind of -- this kind of 18 attendance, it wouldn't take much to put a cap on the 19 donation to the Sheriff's Department to cover electricity 20 and cleanup and everything else. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, Glenn Holekamp 22 would know whether it's our meter. 23 MR. JOSEPH: We will also have a committee of 24 ten people that will be doing the cleanup. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 4-14-03 100 1 MR. JOSEPH: We may not pick up every 2 cigarette, but we're going to try. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In your opening 5 comments, you indicated that there may be more than one of 6 these? 7 MR. JOSEPH: I would like to do it yearly, 8 yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yearly, like next 10 year? 11 MR. JOSEPH: Annually, yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not twice this year? 13 MR. JOSEPH: No, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. You don't have 15 to explain any more. That's good. 16 MR. JOSEPH: The reason that we are trying to 17 do this is because the Ag Barn -- they went way up on the 18 price, and -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's those people that 20 are managing that thing. I mean, you know, they're called 21 the Commissioners Court, and you just -- you can't trust 22 them any more. 23 MR. JOSEPH: Something about they didn't get 24 the vote, right? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Didn't get this -- 4-14-03 101 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We have a tough time 2 controlling them. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I want to increase 4 it some more. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. You think the 6 rent's high this year? Wait till next year. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that's why I bring up 8 the -- I'm glad you have volunteers willing to put out your 9 own trash cans, because we need to -- we just need to make 10 sure it doesn't cost the County any money. I know you put 11 money back into the Sheriff's Department and into -- you're 12 spending money, and we appreciate that, but we don't have a 13 whole lot budgeted for trash pickup and things of that 14 nature in that park. 15 MR. JOSEPH: We'll take care of it. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you, Mr. 17 Joseph. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did we vote? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's a motion and 21 second, I believe, on the table. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we have a motion on the 23 floor that's been seconded, and as we were proceeding to 24 vote, we had a question. So, I'll now -- if there's not any 25 further questions, all in favor of the motion, signify by 4-14-03 102 1 raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 6 is to consider and discuss the appointment to AACOG Rural 7 Public Transportation Advisory Committee. If the Court will 8 recall, we -- with the cooperation of the media, when we 9 were so fortunate in getting a couple of appointments that 10 we got earlier to the Senior Citizens Advisory Committee, I 11 think it was called, and we had extraordinarily good luck 12 getting some citizen interest in that, we then asked for the 13 media's cooperation for the Rural Public Transportation 14 Advisory Committee, and I believe I saw something on that. 15 That's my recollection, at least. And they were kind enough 16 to go out and beat the bushes and beat the drum for us, but 17 I've not been made aware of any citizen that wanted on that. 18 And Commissioner Williams indicated the willingness to serve 19 on that committee as Kerr County's representative, and so 20 that's where we are at this point. He's indicating the 21 willingness to do that. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: With the lack of anybody 23 else stepping forward, I'll make a motion to appoint 24 Commissioner Williams. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second. 4-14-03 103 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion has been made and 2 seconded by Commissioners Letz and Nicholson that 3 Commissioner Bill Williams be appointed to the AACOG Rural 4 Public Transportation Advisory Committee. Is there any 5 further discussion or questions? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Which requires a 7 letter from the County Judge to Mr. Notzon? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And assuming the Court takes 9 affirmative action, why, I will write that letter and we'll 10 get that done. All in favor of the motion, signify by 11 raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 16 is to consider and discuss authorizing the advertisement of 17 Request for Proposals for architectural or engineering 18 services for the design and/or construction alternatives or 19 the repairs, renovation, rehabilitation, and/or construction 20 of facilities at the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center, and 21 cost estimates for each of such alternatives. I put this on 22 the agenda as a result of the workshop which we recently 23 held, and that's where I saw we ended up as a stopping 24 point. And so it's now before the Court on -- does the 25 Court want to proceed to solicit proposals for the 4-14-03 104 1 engineering/architectural design services and those cost 2 estimates? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, is the answer. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: From here. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, from -- the 7 question I have, I guess, is what are we requesting 8 specifically? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: We will request proposals for 10 engineering or architectural design services to study what 11 we've got out there, within the parameters that we've 12 discussed, and give us the alternatives that are available 13 to us; what we can salvage, what we can't salvage, and the 14 cost estimates on each of these alternatives. But first 15 they would make a proposal to us as to what the charge to 16 this county would be for coming up with that. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the criteria for 18 our selection? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: The criteria for our selection 20 is -- it would be they'll submit their proposals and the 21 Court will select whichever proposal they deem to be the 22 most appropriate. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess what I'm asking, 24 are we hiring the architectural firm that we're going to be 25 with for the next year, or -- 4-14-03 105 1 JUDGE TINLEY: No. We will -- we will be 2 asking them to submit proposals on what they would charge 3 Kerr County to do this work. Come up with the -- with the 4 various alternatives that we have available to us out there 5 and what the cost will be. Definitive cost estimates. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not trying to be 7 difficult on this, but I'm trying to figure out what we're 8 asking for exactly. Because, I mean, if I go out -- if we 9 go out and say we're requesting proposals as to how to fix 10 up the Ag Barn, which are basically what we're doing -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- well, if we don't get 13 very specific -- are we talking about the parking lot? Are 14 we talking about the rodeo arena? The fence? If we don't 15 talk very specifically about what we're asking for, we're 16 going to get answers from one spectrum to the other, and I 17 don't think we can make a decision unless we're asking them 18 all to vote -- I mean give us a proposal on the same thing. 19 And I don't know -- and this is kind where we got -- you 20 know, the last time we went out for proposals, we made a 21 very specific one, and which, you know, was probably 22 appropriate at that time. And I just think we need to make 23 -- I would like to see what we're asking before it goes out, 24 I guess is what I'm saying, because I think it's got to be 25 so that we can make a selection based on real criteria. And 4-14-03 106 1 I can see if we just go out and say, "We want your ideas," 2 which is what we're doing, we're going to get everything 3 from one spectrum to the other. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But on the other side 5 of that, though, Jon, if we was to adopt the Baldwin plan, 6 you wouldn't need to do this. You'd just go out and hire 7 somebody to do the Baldwin plan, and no problem. You 8 wouldn't have to hire somebody to figure out -- to tell you 9 that we need to leave that wall there; that that wall has to 10 be torn down, or it won't work in the concept. I mean, 11 those -- those things are -- to me, are ridiculous 12 questions. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not opposing what 15 you're saying. I'm on your side. That -- you know, and to 16 be definitive, I think -- I think we got it pretty, kind of, 17 close to being definitive what we want. We want a barn. 18 Go out there and build a barn. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know why -- I 20 guess I don't know why we don't go hire the architect we're 21 going to use right now, and what we're going to bid on is an 22 hourly rate and a percentage that they want of the total 23 deal. 'Cause we have to do -- I mean, the only reason we 24 have to -- I'm saying architect is we have to hire one by 25 law. You know, I don't -- I'm not in favor of going out and 4-14-03 107 1 expending money on another consulting firm and then go out 2 and hire an architect. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's a good 4 point. And this would suggest that we would be asking 5 various firms to bid on architectural and engineering 6 services for design and/or construction alternatives. I 7 don't -- I don't quite agree with my colleague here, all we 8 want to do is build a barn. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm shocked. 10 (Laughter.) I am totally shocked. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think there are 12 other things out there that are of equal concern. But I do 13 believe it's important for to us find out what is 14 salvageable out there and what is not salvageable, and what 15 has to be done to that arena to make certain in our 16 collective minds that it is a safe venue for public events. 17 And the only way to do that is have somebody go out there at 18 our behest and make the kinds of professional inspections 19 necessary to get the job done. So, I guess what you're 20 saying -- and I think I agree with you, Jon -- if we're 21 going to do that, let's get somebody who can do all these 22 things, including designing the new facility that we either 23 say yes or no to. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, on the other 25 end of this spectrum, it's the Nicholson plan. What I would 4-14-03 108 1 like -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought I was on 3 the other end of the spectrum. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Maybe we're on the 5 same end, I don't know. What I would like to see is 6 somebody to tell -- somebody to tell us the minimum amount 7 of work that's needed and the minimum expenditure to make 8 that facility usable. The lowest cost approach that we can 9 do would be -- would be my approach to it. And if that's 10 $2 million, I've got a real problem with that. I don't -- I 11 was just out there Saturday night -- and I'm not a builder; 12 I built a couple of houses -- but I can't see $2 million 13 worth of work to bring that up to minimum standards. I -- 14 maybe I'm regressing and leading us back into a subject that 15 we don't need to go through again, but just to wrap that up, 16 I'd like for somebody to say just what I said. What's the 17 minimum amount of work that needs to be done to make this 18 safe and usable, and what's the minimum expenditure to bring 19 that about? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I concur with what 21 you're saying. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: In response to that, 23 Commissioner Nicholson, one of the alternatives, or one of a 24 number of the alternatives that I anticipate we would be 25 asking for would be that. It would be able to -- one of the 4-14-03 109 1 alternatives would be the Nicholson plan. One of the 2 alternatives would be the Baldwin plan. One of the 3 alternatives would be the Williams plan. I don't know 4 whether Commissioner Letz has his own plan or not, but -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: -- he's certainly free to work 7 it up. But we've got a bunch of different alternatives that 8 we've kicked around here for a considerable period of time, 9 long -- even long before I got here and before you got here. 10 But one of the problems we've got is, we -- we've not been 11 able to zero in and decide which one or more of these 12 alternatives do we want to select. And, secondly, what's it 13 going to cost? I think one of the reasons we haven't been 14 able to decide what we want is because we don't know what 15 it's going to cost. Not in a sure enough firm, professional 16 estimate. We -- we were able to get, in connection with the 17 bond issue, the cooperation of three very competent local 18 builders to give us their ballpark estimates. There were 19 some earlier estimates that were obtained about a year ago 20 on various things, but we're going to have to have an 21 architect or engineer anyway to assist us by law. I would 22 suggest that whoever it is that responds to this RFP, with 23 these various alternatives and the costs for each of them, 24 is probably going to be the guy we end up going with to go 25 forward on whatever we decide is the alternative or 4-14-03 110 1 alternatives that we select. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I guess -- you 3 know, I don't know, then, why we don't just hire the firm 4 that we're talking about right now. Because, based on my 5 knowledge of that facility and just a random talk at the gas 6 station with another person who was intimately involved with 7 the construction of that facility, they brought up a thing I 8 hadn't even thought about. We've all been talking about -- 9 using this as an example -- salvaging the concrete in the 10 current exhibit hall. Well, they said, "Well, that was 11 poured in multiple phases and it's not structural; it can't 12 be used." And I was, like -- I hadn't thought of that. 13 So -- but what that triggers in my mind, they're going to 14 have to take core samples of that concrete at some pint, you 15 know. And I just see that we have a -- one, if we do at 16 least hire the architectural firm that we're going to stick 17 with, at least we can get that behind us and let them put 18 together a team and start coming together with proposals as 19 to what -- you know, what -- we've done an asbestos survey, 20 so that's done, but we're going to have to do all kinds of 21 structural analysis before they can tell us what we can do 22 definitely. 23 If we're trying to get a bottom line cost, 24 we're going to have to do core samples of the concrete, 25 we're going to have to have someone go through this, you 4-14-03 111 1 know, to some standard on plumbing, electrical, safety. You 2 know, we're going to have to decide what that standard is, 3 because -- you know, whether we use the city standards or 4 the, you know, national standards. So, I just think that, 5 you know, if we at least get the architect behind us, it 6 would be a major step. And I'm not -- I mean, in effect, 7 I'm not going to be in favor of hiring another consultant 8 other than a permanent architect. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with you, and 10 I think this -- this agenda item accomplishes that. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do too. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As long as that's what 13 the RFQ says. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I had some folks ask 15 me at the conclusion of our workshop, "Well, you had a 16 workshop; you talked about the Ag Barn. How did it go? 17 What did you do? How'd it go?" I said, "We spent two and a 18 half hours chasing our tail. Collectively, chasing our 19 tail." Because we don't have the answers that come out of 20 there. I'm in favor of it. Let's move it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As long as the RFQ is to 22 hire the architectural firm for actual renovation/ 23 construction of the facility, I'm in favor of it. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we've got to be able to 25 ask them to provide us with -- with the various 4-14-03 112 1 alternatives. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hmm-mm. I think all we 3 ask them to provide us with is the standard. We pick the 4 architect -- or I presume the state architectural contract 5 that's been approved. We ask for that contract to come in, 6 and this thing that they're going to do, and we'll make the 7 selection. All we're doing is hiring an architect. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, I mean. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: One way to go. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And -- well, let me 12 see if I can -- there's something else that has to be said. 13 Are we going to tell -- once we make that selection, are we 14 going to tell them, then, the things we need done, so we can 15 make an intelligent decision? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, even in the RFQ, 17 you can say that we're going to rely on this firm, you know, 18 to give us advice, and they're going to charge us every step 19 of the way for their opinion as the consultant. But I think 20 we're hiring the architectural firm that we're going to be 21 comfortable with giving us that information that we're going 22 to believe and rely on. But we're hiring -- all we're doing 23 is hiring an architectural firm for that facility. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Will there be some 25 limitations that are listed that say something about minimum 4-14-03 113 1 requirements or minimum needs to bring it up to standards or 2 something like that? Or is it going to be an open-ended 3 thing where they can design a new Ag Barn? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you -- I don't 5 think you want to limit it. I think you just want -- it 6 could be a $100,000 project, it could be a 7 multi-million-dollar project. We don't know until they give 8 us the -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, my question is, 10 when you get into those things, by whose standards? Whose 11 standards? Talking about, like, this concrete issue, which 12 borders on one of the most ridiculous things I've ever 13 heard. You know, we're going to bore holes in there to find 14 out that concrete is concrete, and that it can hold up what? 15 People doing the Cotton-Eye Joe on Saturday night? You 16 know, I -- you know, once we get into those kinds of things, 17 that's where we're going to bog down. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean, just -- you 20 know, let's build a barn -- we're talking about a barn here, 21 okay? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Concrete floor. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Concrete floor. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Steel building. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A barn. 4-14-03 114 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where the goats 2 dance, right? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Once we get into the 4 escalators and the heliports -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No heliports, no 6 escalator. You've got my pledge; no escalator. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No heliport. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Got a commitment 10 there. But once we get off into these kind of things, I 11 mean, it's not going to fly, I can tell you. It ain't going 12 to happen. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't disagree with 14 you, Commissioner, but I think if you're going to ask 15 engineers to sign off on it, they're going to want to know 16 what this concrete's made of. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To do what? To dance 19 on? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you're going to drive 21 a truck on it, if you're going to have any kind of support 22 in it for a roof over, you know, that building, or a new 23 roof over it, or for anything. I mean, because you know -- 24 remember the headache we had; we argued for days about a 25 quarter-inch difference in concrete at the new jail. 4-14-03 115 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Well, you know, 2 then you get into, is it -- are we talking about a pickup 3 truck? Are we talking about a fire truck? You know, I 4 mean, it could go on forever. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or Bradley tank. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're talking about a 7 barn; put goats and sheep and pigs in. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And skid steers. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And skid steers. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move the agenda 11 item the way it's framed. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 14 seconded to authorize the advertisement of an RFP for 15 architectural and/or engineering services for design and/or 16 construction alternatives or repairs, renovation, 17 rehabilitation, and/or construction of facilities at Hill 18 Country Youth Exhibit Center and the cost estimates for each 19 of such alternatives. Any further discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm voting -- 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to vote 22 for it based on faith. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm voting against it, 24 because I don't think you can do it. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any further discussion? 4-14-03 116 1 All in favor, signify by raising your right hand. 2 (Commissioners Baldwin, Williams, and Nicholson voted in favor of the motion.) 3 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (Commissioner Letz voted against the motion.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motions does carry. Next item 7 on the agenda, discuss and consider status of pending 8 airport lease agreement with Joseph L. Kennedy Enterprises, 9 Inc., and/or others. If the Court will recall, last meeting 10 we were discussing a new lease with Kennedy, and also the 11 renewal of an existing lease that Mr. Kennedy has as part of 12 the consideration for the new lease. There were some 13 modifications and/or adjustments to that, and the Court 14 approved those two items conditioned upon the review by the 15 County Attorney and his comfort level with it, as well as 16 some concerns that I expressed; further conditioned upon my 17 satisfactory comfort level with it. Mr. Motley? 18 MR. MOTLEY: Are you referring now about the 19 review? Is that what you're asking about? I know that 20 there were some -- if you're asking about some of the 21 concern areas, there is a concern. I know we had looked at 22 some of the -- I don't know, predecessor leases, I guess 23 you'd say. They're still in effect, so some of them have 24 been extended, and some, I guess, court orders dating back 25 to '87, and there seems to be some inconsistencies, maybe, 4-14-03 117 1 in the way that the leases are signed or required to be 2 signed. In other words, I guess maybe the whole thing is -- 3 maybe we ought to take just a teeny bit more time and look 4 all this over before we approve any -- any lease at this 5 time, would be my recommendation. There is a lot of -- 6 well, there are numerous leases, first of all, and then 7 there's some extensions, and the leases that we are dealing 8 with for different areas of this airport are all not 9 particularly conterminous. 10 One of the things that, if it's possible, I 11 would like to see, is I think it would be good for -- to get 12 everything sort of in one ball to lease at some point in 13 time, to get all the leases in at the same time. I know -- 14 I don't know if it was last meeting, maybe two or three 15 meetings ago, the Commissioners Court had -- it was 16 expressed in court that the lease -- the total of leases 17 have value as a package, and when you start breaking off 18 into separate leases, it becomes questionable about the 19 value of the -- of the entirety of the package. And I'm -- 20 as I understand it, most of the leases now end by either -- 21 by current expression of the termination date or by binding 22 extensions in 2033. And I would like to see -- just me, 23 personally, would like to see everything end in the same 24 year so we can put the same time so we can continue to lease 25 them to whoever the interested party is, but lease them to 4-14-03 118 1 them all in a group. And I don't know if you had any 2 particular questions, or if I'm just rambling on here. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: You, at one time, Mr. Motley, 4 I believe, had expressed a concern about the requirement or 5 not of a competitive process. 6 MR. MOTLEY: Well, and I will tell you that 7 the state of my research at this point is -- and I had said 8 that -- said at one point that -- you know, the issue came 9 up on kind of the spur of the moment that day in court. 10 I've looked at it, and I don't see -- and I know the City's 11 attorney is here today and she may have a disagreement with 12 me, but I don't see anything that would excuse the County 13 from going out for some sort of either bid process or 14 something approaching a bid process. There's a process 15 provided for where the County can get an appraisal on the 16 value of the lease, and then lease competitively that way, 17 but it looks to me like everything I've looked at indicates 18 that the County has to either go out for some sort of bid or 19 some -- some equal procedure that will yield the County the 20 maximum amount of money on it. And I didn't see -- I 21 thought there might be a way around that, so-to-speak, or an 22 exception to that rule for airports. There are a lot of 23 exceptions for airports, but I don't see that they overrule 24 the general rule under the Government Code, Chapter 263, 25 that says that a county has to get a competitive bid for 4-14-03 119 1 their -- for their property. I don't see anything that 2 excuses us from that. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do or don't? 4 MR. MOTLEY: I think we do have to. I think 5 we have to get some sort of competitive bid. There's 6 another procedure whereby you get an appraisal, and it sets 7 up a -- a representative of the Court who can -- can lease 8 according to that appraisal, but something approaching the 9 highest value of the property. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, I've always 11 thought that. 12 MR. MOTLEY: I think you're correct. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Felt that way, that we 14 should go out, and the highest bidder, but then everybody 15 convinced me that that wasn't -- that wasn't the real route 16 to go. 17 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I said -- I said 18 Government Code; I meant Local Government. Chapter 236, I 19 think, is the rule. There are other rules in the Local 20 Municipal Airport Act, I think is what's they call it, that 21 talk about being able to lease property. The City/County 22 can lease; they can do all these things. There are other 23 uses county property can be put to, you know, auditorium and 24 all these different things, but I don't think any of 25 those -- even though they say the county can lease, I don't 4-14-03 120 1 think any of those do away with the basic obligation under 2 263 of the Local Government Code that the county go through 3 a procedure where they obtain maximum value, either through 4 bid process -- this other alternate I'm talking about with 5 the -- you know, it may be that the Airport Board can do 6 this. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question. 8 Having said what you just said, Mr. County Attorney, given 9 that the County and the City jointly own the property, the 10 City by arrangement manages the property, the City has the 11 right to do what you just said. They can do that because 12 there's some special considerations under the Municipal 13 Code, I guess, as well as Airport Codes that permit them to 14 lease these facilities the way they have been in the past. 15 How do you square all that? 16 MR. MOTLEY: Well, that may be part of the 17 original question I think Judge Tinley raised. I think 18 maybe -- it may be that some of the leases in the past 19 perhaps may have been entered into in -- you know, 20 unadvisedly or something. I don't know. I haven't looked 21 at every letter of every lease there. There are actually 22 quite a few of them in here. And -- but when you look at 23 it, I mean, these are the -- these are the current leases 24 right now with the extensions. And it may be that some of 25 those contracts, you know, were incorrectly completed, those 4-14-03 121 1 leases, by -- by considering this rule under 263. It may be 2 that they were done improperly. I think, really, what Judge 3 Tinley and I had discussed is that if things were done 4 incorrectly, the better process or the better procedure at 5 this point would probably be to take a real close look at it 6 and see if there's a problem, and then attempt at this point 7 to straighten it out, rather than to perpetuate it by 8 continuing to extend the lease or continue to lease property 9 under the same sort of conditions. I don't think you can 10 square it. I really don't. I think that this is the way it 11 should have been done from the get-go, if the Airport Board 12 does have authority to lease property. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, they have 14 authority to make recommendations. 15 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I don't -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm going to address that in a 17 minute, Commissioner. 18 MR. MOTLEY: Okay. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I take very serious issue with 20 that statement. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Really? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Absolutely. 23 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I'm going to -- unless you 24 have any more questions, I think Judge Tinley has actually 25 looked into this pretty deeply, and I'll be happy to answer 4-14-03 122 1 any questions now or after any other comments from y'all, 2 'cause I know the Judge does have some comments on it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to hear the 4 Judge's comments. 5 MR. MOTLEY: Sure. Anybody else have 6 anything at all on this? Okay. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I knew, Mr. Motley, that you 8 expressed some concerns in the past about the competitive 9 nature of -- of the process, and you were concerned about 10 that, whether the County could participate in the lease of 11 county property on something other than a competitive basis, 12 and that's -- let me -- let me address my concerns, if I 13 might, and it's included within the information which I 14 provided to -- to each of you, and also the City has the 15 benefit of this information. Back in 1970, the City and the 16 County formed a Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Board 17 under the provisions of the -- of the Texas Municipal 18 Airport Act, and that body was formed by resolution of each 19 of the -- each of the organizations, and it's indicated in 20 your materials. 21 Subsequent to that time, there were various 22 leases or other activities that occurred out at the airport. 23 Some of those leases were assigned to third parties, new 24 leases, and in a number of those documents, you saw the 25 concurrence of the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport 4-14-03 123 1 Board. In fact, in some of those documents, you saw a 2 provision in the document itself that the legal 3 effectiveness of the document would not occur until all 4 three, being the City, the County, and the Airport Board, 5 are parties to the agreement. The original lease by which 6 Mr. Kennedy has his F.B.O. operation out there, I believe, 7 contains such a provision, if you'll examine it. There was 8 a Mooney agreement that occurred as recently as 1995, I 9 believe, which required the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint 10 Airport Board's consent and agreement. That, I suspect, was 11 something that was required -- I don't know this, but was 12 required by someone on Mooney's behalf, one of their lenders 13 or someone acting on their behalf. Mr. Jackson may know 14 more about that. 15 There was significant involvement by the 16 Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Board. I have not 17 looked at the 1970 vending statutes of the Texas Municipal 18 Airport Act. I do have what is the successor to that 19 statutory provision, and I've reviewed it. And, basically, 20 what it says is that such a joint Airport Board has the 21 authority to do all of the functions that its constituent 22 agencies, which in this case would be the City and the 23 County, subject only to the limitations as set forth in a 24 subsequent provision of what is now the Municipal Airport 25 Act. One of the limitations is that they could not lease 4-14-03 124 1 property to a third party for use or possession of airport 2 property for a term of more than 40 years. 3 Later on, there's a provision that says the 4 constituent agency, being the City and the County, could, by 5 resolution, even remove that limitation and grant the 6 authority for more than 40 years, I would assume by 7 resolution. Had they done that, they could take it back at 8 any time after they had done it. The next thing that occurs 9 in this chain of events is in 1987, the then City Manager 10 for the City of Kerrville -- again, this information is in 11 your materials -- concluded that the function of the 12 airport -- of the airport board -- Joint Airport Board 13 should be advisory only, and obtained an ordinance by the 14 City Council of the City of Kerrville which stated that the 15 Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Board could not, acting 16 alone, lease property. Subsequent to that, a predecessor of 17 this Court followed suit at the suggestion of the then City 18 Manager. 19 My bottom line to you, gentlemen, is that if 20 you form a joint airport board under the provisions of the 21 Municipal Airport Act, except as may be authorized by that 22 statute, you're not free -- neither of the constituent 23 agencies -- not free to subsequently pick and choose what 24 provisions of that act they decide they like or don't like. 25 If you don't like it, you bail out completely, but you don't 4-14-03 125 1 write -- rewrite state legislation to fit Kerr County. 2 Bottom line is, I think the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint 3 Airport Board is alive and well. Notwithstanding an 4 ordinance by the City Council or an order of this Court, it 5 is not strictly an advisory body. It has the authority to 6 lease property at the airport for a period not to exceed 40 7 years, but up to 40 years. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's very 9 interesting, Judge, and I appreciate your comments. And it 10 also brings into question why -- based on what you've said, 11 why, in subsequent years, when the Court adopted its order 12 in '87 based on some correspondence that came from the City 13 with respect to a city ordinance, why they permitted the 14 advisory board to retain zoning authority, having stripped 15 it of leasing authority or other fiduciary responsibility. 16 So, I -- I appreciate your comments; that's very 17 enlightening. Question is, where do we go from here? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I think I noticed 19 Mr. Jackson nodding his head when I mentioned the '95 action 20 on the Mooney lease, which required the airport board's 21 concurrence in whatever modification took place there. And 22 apparently you were involved in that, Mr. Jackson? 23 MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I'm not really 24 sure, but it did sound familiar, that a lender did require 25 all of those pieces of paper, and I think I may have even 4-14-03 126 1 been involved to submit those pieces of paper to the various 2 bodies. But I don't recall a discussion of the detail that 3 you've mentioned about how they got to that conclusion, what 4 the lender was requiring, but that rang true to me when you 5 said that. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- I think my bad news 7 message is that -- and this is merely my opinion -- that 8 this matter may have been handled, at least in part, 9 inappropriately since 1987. My good news part of the 10 message is -- is that maybe the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint 11 Airport Board is not bound by the same constraints on 12 competitive bidding or other competitive procurement that 13 Kerr County's bound by. I don't know the answer to that 14 question. I -- I very belatedly slipped that one in 15 Mr. Motley's lap, and I don't think he's had an opportunity 16 to chew on it. But my conclusion is, it was formed, it's in 17 existence. We cannot pick and choose what provisions we 18 want under the statutory law to be effective from time to 19 time, and that that board has the authority that was given 20 to it back in 1970; has now, always has had, irrespective of 21 what this Court and the City Council of the City of 22 Kerrville may have done. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Has the authority to 24 lease those properties out there on their own without -- 25 without agreement with the constituent bodies, as you put 4-14-03 127 1 it? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: As long as the lease does not 3 exceed 40 years. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So they can just go 5 out -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That's how I read the statute. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then how does the 8 Commissioners Court know that that's happened? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They can report to 10 us. If we didn't like what happened, I guess we'd change 11 our representation on it at some point in time, 'cause we 12 pick a certain number of those members. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's a good point, 14 Commissioner. If -- and I have no reason to believe it's 15 not -- what you just said is not accurate, but there's a big 16 difference between a management board and advisory board. 17 If we -- if we've been treating them like an advisory board 18 since 1970, then the question arises, do we have the right 19 people in there? Do we have advisory-type people in there, 20 or do we have people that are capable of a managing 21 function? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That's an obvious question. I 23 notice that the Assistant City Attorney is here, Ms. Ilse 24 Bailey, who has had the benefit of this information. I'm 25 not sure what her total research has shown, if she's ready 4-14-03 128 1 to come forward and give us her take on all of this hoopla. 2 MS. BAILEY: Good morning. For the record, 3 Ilse Bailey with the City Attorney's office. I don't know 4 that I'm particularly prepared to address everything that 5 Judge Tinley has addressed, although it has been, certainly, 6 the City's opinion that the leases are appropriate and the 7 extensions thereof are -- are appropriate. I think getting 8 to the details of why or under what analysis could be left 9 to another day. But the main thing I wanted to point out, 10 in order to answer Commissioners Williams' question about 11 why, if they are only advisory, were they allowed to retain 12 zoning authority, and, Commissioner Williams, that is 13 provided for specifically in the statutes. Even for those 14 boards that don't have any other authority except advisory, 15 they are granted the authority under the statutes to be a 16 zoning board, and under that aspect of their work, it's not 17 advisory; it's a regulatory authority. So, that -- the 18 answer to that question wouldn't have any bearing on whether 19 or not Judge Tinley's analysis was correct. I have reviewed 20 all of the documentation to which Judge Tinley refers, and I 21 do recall the 1970 documents granting leasing authority to 22 the board. What I -- I don't specifically recall reviewing, 23 and I will do this immediately, the question of whether or 24 not they require concurrence of the City and the County in 25 order for those leases to be effectuated or not. But I do 4-14-03 129 1 recall that the board was given the authority to do the 2 leasing. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Another item that I might 4 pitch out on the table here, just to kind of create more 5 confusion in the mix -- and it's not as though the City's 6 not aware of this -- later on in 1970, by the voters of this 7 county, an airport authority was created under the 8 provisions of Article 9, Section 12 of the Texas 9 Constitution. Now, an airport authority need not 10 necessarily be any sort of a management or -- or oversight 11 agency. It, rather, is for the purpose of -- of the 12 leasing, building construction, acquisition of airport 13 facilities, and providing for the way that they will be 14 financed or paid for. And I would note that our airport 15 authority has the authority to issue general obligation 16 bonds and the authority, I believe under current law, to 17 levy a tax rate up to 75 cents per hundred. I hear a lot of 18 silence. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't think they 20 know that, Judge. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is airport authority the 22 same as airport board? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: No, it is not. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not the same -- same 25 people? 4-14-03 130 1 JUDGE TINLEY: They are -- it's neither the 2 same entity, and naturally, therefore, not the same makeup. 3 Now, the airport authority, though it has been approved -- 4 and it's another document in the materials that I gave you. 5 By referendum of the voters of this county, the authority 6 was created and the results were canvassed, but as I've been 7 able to ascertain to this point, nothing went on to further 8 perpetuate the activities of that authority from that day. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That answered my 10 question. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Doesn't function? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Has never, to my knowledge, 13 other than come into creation. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'm looking at 15 this 19 -- February 1987 court order that I seconded the 16 motion. That's simply -- that states that the Airport Board 17 is an advisory board only, has no authority acting alone in 18 leasing, et cetera. Now, are you saying that this is -- and 19 this Court was advised by the City Manager to do this. Are 20 you saying -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Suggested. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Suggested. Are you 23 saying that this is -- this is wrong? And if -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm saying, legally, it's 25 ineffectual. It doesn't have the authority -- 4-14-03 131 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to change the state 3 statute. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly what 5 I'm saying. By what state statute? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Texas Municipal Airport Act. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That says that -- it 8 clearly says in there that the airport board does have 9 authority to lease, and so what we're doing here is, we're 10 backing months up and saying to the airport board, "Take 11 care of the business, and we'll see y'all next year"? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what we're 13 saying. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. All I need -- 15 all I need is David Motley to say yes, that is true, and I'm 16 off and running. I'm not going to spend another minute on 17 this thing. 18 MR. MOTLEY: What this says is -- in the 19 statute is -- in the Transportation Code, 22.080 says the 20 joint -- a joint board may not, without consent of each 21 governing board -- each governing authority of the board's 22 constituent agencies, enter into a contract, lease, or other 23 arrangement for the use and occupancy of airport property 24 for a term of more than 40 years, including renewals or 25 options to renew. And then the second provision that the 4-14-03 132 1 Judge had talked about further down here is that they may 2 make other arrangements, but that is -- that is in current 3 law. And that law was effective on September 1st of '95. 4 But there are three other laws, and I think the Judge was 5 talking about not having seen the earlier versions of 6 several of these statutes, but this goes back sometime -- 7 all the way back to Vernon Annotated Civil Statute 46D-14, 8 so it goes -- it's been through three different, you know, 9 versions. This is the fourth version of that law. And so 10 I -- we don't have access to older statutes; pretty much 11 everything we have in our library is current information. 12 We don't have -- we can't go back, without going to the Law 13 Library in San Antonio or somewhere, and look at the old 14 versions of the statutes. 15 But I note one of the prior statutes says it 16 was a 1947 act. Another was a 1943 act -- a 1983 act, 17 excuse me, so the '83 act probably was the one that was in 18 effect from the 68th Legislature at the time of this '87 -- 19 I think what the Judge is saying is absolutely correct. I 20 don't think it invalidates any contracts that the City and 21 County also signed on. I think it's -- that's just icing on 22 the cake, so-to-speak. I don't think we had to do it, but I 23 think the act that we took -- and I mean February the 7th of 24 1987, based on the February 2nd letter of suggestion from 25 Glen Brown that we do this, I don't think it's -- I think it 4-14-03 133 1 was just kind of a waste of time, really. I don't think we 2 take the power or authority away from this statute the 3 Legislature granted to the airport boards, and so I think 4 the Judge is right. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: In connection with the 6 comments that Mr. Motley made, if the then version of the 7 Texas Municipal Airport Act, which was in effect in 1987 8 when the Commissioners Court order and the Kerrville City 9 Council ordinance was passed, contained a provision that 10 said that the constituent agencies, acting together, could 11 pick and choose what authority they wanted to give this 12 board, then we may be okay. My guess is it didn't say that, 13 based upon what the provisions of the act are now. But the 14 flip side of that is, we need to know what it said then, and 15 what Mr. Motley was telling you is, it's going to take some 16 more research to sniff all that out. But we need to do it. 17 We need -- if it needs to be corrected, it's better to start 18 now than just perpetuating an error, if, in fact, it exists, 19 and saying, "Well, we've done this this way for long enough; 20 we'll just keep doing it the wrong way." 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That I don't agree with. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't either. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sniff it out, but 25 where does that leave Mr. Kennedy in the meantime? 4-14-03 134 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Unfortunately, Mr. Kennedy is 2 caught in the middle of this mess. And I hate it that he is 3 -- he's caught in the middle, but it very well could have 4 been someone else, and he just happened to be the poor soul 5 that got -- got caught in the switch here. And I think 6 Mr. Jackson -- he's nodding here, and I think he understands 7 the dilemma that we now have based upon this information. 8 And I -- on the existing lease renewal, I don't see a 9 real -- I don't see a real problem with that, because that 10 lease goes through 2005. However, it's tied to the new 11 lease which he wants, and he's got people waiting in line, 12 according to my understanding, to utilize this new hangar 13 that he wants to get started building. But, unfortunately, 14 I see that we've got two options, neither of which is really 15 before us today. But, while we're by natural sequence led 16 to this, one is we can do nothing until we sniff it all out 17 and have poor Mr. Kennedy patting his foot with us, or two, 18 we can go forward on his new lease, new hangar arrangement 19 alone, separate that and handle it as a stand-alone deal. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What do you mean, we 21 can? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: And -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The airport board can. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- get the airport board to 25 join in that action if they deem it appropriate. But we 4-14-03 135 1 still have the question about -- I'd like an answer that 2 that board is not necessarily bound by competitive bidding 3 arrangements, too, see. So, we've got some complications 4 either way we go. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I guess -- and I 7 appreciate your research and I find it very interesting, but 8 it has triggered in my mind another step, is that at some 9 point -- and I would be more comfortable when it comes to 10 the airport to know about, on the financial side -- okay, 11 let's say the airport board has the authority to do all 12 this, and there's revenue generated in that. And then I 13 also -- I mean, what is the financial side relationship 14 between that board, the City, and the County, is what I'm 15 basically saying. Because taxpayer dollars -- they're 16 basically dealing with taxpayer dollars in a way, because 17 the County and the City, you know, whenever there's a 18 deficit, cough it in. And I'm a little -- I just would like 19 to really clarify as to how that relationship -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me see if I can answer 21 that for you. If I'm in error, I think Mr. Knippel's here 22 so that he can fill in the gaps, correct where I misstated. 23 Those operations out there, the revenues go in -- the 24 revenues that are due the City and/or the County go into an 25 airport fund pool, and out of that pool, whatever 4-14-03 136 1 requirements for contribution from City and County are first 2 paid out of there. Only in the event that fund is 3 inadequate is there any call made upon either the City or 4 the County for additional funds, in which case we each come 5 up with 50 cents on each dollar. Is that essentially 6 correct, Mr. Knippel? 7 MR. KNIPPEL: Yes, sir. And that may not be 8 the entire picture of that. Yes, there is an airport fund 9 that handles -- that collects all the revenues and most of 10 the expenditures that go out. The City finances 100 percent 11 of the salary of the Airport Manager, as well as our Street 12 Department commits a great deal of labor, material, and 13 equipment to the maintenance of the airport. All that is 14 subsidized -- that part is subsidized by the City solely. 15 That's not in any type of arrangement that we have or any 16 signed agreement with the County; that's just kind of the 17 way that things have evolved. The -- anything that -- any 18 other expenditures that may come -- the type of expenditures 19 that normally exceed the revenues going into that fund are 20 these grant matches, and in which case there's a large 21 contribution equally from both the City and the County on 22 that. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, Paul, let me 24 interrupt you for a second. On the grants, I mean, I think 25 we need to make sure exactly, on applying for the grants, to 4-14-03 137 1 make sure that -- the City and County are applying for 2 grants, I guess is the way it's been done up to now, or is 3 it the Airport Board? Because whose money and who has 4 control of spending the funds out of the airport fund? Is 5 it the City/County or is it the Airport Board? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You raise a good 7 point, and the Judge's research also raises a point and 8 emphasizes the need for an interlocal agreement between the 9 City and the County for the operation of the airport, which 10 does not exist. And I've referenced that to Paul; I've 11 referenced to it Ron Patterson, that need exists and has to 12 be satisfied, and a lot of these questions will get laid to 13 rest within the framework of that agreement. 14 MR. KNIPPEL: And if I might just expound on 15 this conversation a little bit, maybe this is all part of -- 16 part of the divine wisdom at play here; what seems like a 17 huge wrench in the works may be something that needs to be 18 done and may result in a management agreement of types. 19 There's been a number of questions raised at this point. 20 Unfortunately, we do have a user out there or a tenant who 21 is kind of held at bay with this. But what I would propose 22 to do is, the City staff conduct the research -- the legal 23 research, come up with a proposal for how to resolve this, 24 because this isn't -- this is not something that is so 25 mangled up that it can't -- we don't have an answer waiting 4-14-03 138 1 at the other end, but there needs to be a number of steps 2 till we have that answer at the other end. I think that we 3 can do that, make a proposal and give it to the County 4 Attorney for his review and concurrence, and then bring that 5 back and then say that this is how we're going to handle 6 everything. Now, we may wind up with some ratification of 7 past action if it's not exactly the way it should have been 8 done, and then we have a new method of leasing procedures 9 and so forth for the future. With regard to the Kennedy 10 lease -- and I would propose to bring that back to you as 11 soon as possible, within the next couple weeks hopefully. 12 Again, because the answers are there; it's just taking time 13 to review it. I think -- I don't think we have anything 14 that we need to particularly wait on, necessarily, to find 15 those answers. With regard to the Kennedy lease, well, I 16 don't know -- I don't necessarily want to propose that we 17 enter into and sign an agreement with him if we don't 18 exactly know where we're going. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Unfortunately, I don't think 20 we can. I'm like you; I'd like to get Kennedy where he's 21 not held hostage by this, but I don't see any way that we 22 can and proceed comfortably with it, is my problem. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, let me ask -- 24 this might be a possible solution. If we could quickly 25 resolve the issue about whether or not competitive bidding 4-14-03 139 1 is required on this kind of contract, if we could get that 2 out of the way -- for example, if we find out it's not, then 3 that frees us up to go ahead and deal with the Kennedy 4 contract issue. In that regard, we could put usability -- 5 suspenders approach, and all three parties sign on to it, 6 could we not? And we would be covered in any event, before 7 the question of the autonomy of the airport board is 8 answered. 9 MS. BAILEY: Could I make -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Initially, I would say that 11 that sounds reasonable, but, you know, we got -- we got so 12 many -- many things -- many balls in play and in the air on 13 this thing, I don't think I'd be in a position to give you 14 an absolute commitment on that. But it sounds reasonable. 15 In fact, that's where I was going a little bit ago, until 16 the competitive thing came in. There may be some other 17 issues which are there. 18 MS. BAILEY: Judge, can I make a suggestion? 19 That currently, as I understand it, what you have before you 20 from last Commissioners Court meeting is an approval of the 21 Kennedy lease subject to your specific level of comfort and 22 the County Attorney's level of comfort. If you leave that 23 as it is, then if the County Attorney and the City staff and 24 you can come to some kind of an agreement on that specific 25 issue, you could go ahead and sign that without having to go 4-14-03 140 1 back for additional Commissioners Court action, while we 2 could still be working towards a very rapid resolution of 3 the larger issue of how the operation of the airport is to 4 continue. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that's exactly where it 6 was left last meeting, as I recall. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And, Mr. Knippel's suggestion 9 that you go to work and burn the midnight oil is certainly 10 satisfactory with me, and I'm sure it is with Mr. Motley as 11 well. 12 MS. BAILEY: And I appreciate that. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: He was quick to volunteer your 14 -- your complete cooperation. 15 MS. BAILEY: I'm proud that he has that kind 16 of confidence in his staff. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me see if I 18 understand the bottom line. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on what 21 Ms. Bailey just said and the Court's prior action, which we 22 actually approved the lease extension subject to your review 23 and satisfaction and Mr. Motley's, that -- that approval's 24 in place until and unless we hear from either of you that 25 there's something that just absolutely is against the law, 4-14-03 141 1 we can't do. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That's my understanding. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What else do we have 4 to say? 5 MR. KNIPPEL: So, does that mean we'll get a 6 signature on the lease documents this next week? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Depends on how fast Ms. Bailey 8 can work and how persuasive she is with -- with the County 9 Attorney and myself, I believe, Mr. Knippel. I believe 10 that's answered -- basically, what the Court has done is -- 11 is the hot potato is in my lap and Mr. Motley's lap at this 12 point. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You did all that good 14 research and you got it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, I got well rewarded for 16 it, didn't I? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have to admit, 18 Judge, Commissioner Baldwin and I were sitting here saying, 19 "What the hell does all this have to do with the lease?" 20 But now we know. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was a little bit 22 confused, reading through the agenda package. Interesting 23 history, but I was rather confused by the time I got to the 24 end of it. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No good act will go 4-14-03 142 1 unpunished. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: And I want to commend 3 Commissioner Baldwin on not taking the opportunity to engage 4 in lawyer-bashing. I thought surely we'd get -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was wide-open, 6 wasn't it? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. If there ever was an 8 opportunity for him -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm going to get -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to take in after the 11 lawyers, that was it. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm going to get with 13 you privately on this thing so I can tell you that. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: So, it is now left where we 15 left it before, and posthaste, -- 16 MS. BAILEY: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Ms. Bailey. 18 MS. BAILEY: I'll endeavor to make rapid 19 response. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Good. Thank you. I'll look 21 forward to seeing your work. We'll go on to the next item, 22 which is consider and discuss establishing wellness program 23 for Kerr County employees. Ms. Chapman with the Extension 24 Service contacted me about this, and there's minimal 25 material about establishing this wellness program, but I 4-14-03 143 1 think she can give us some basics that can tell us where 2 she's going that hopefully will cause you to be 3 enthusiastic. 4 MS. CHAPMAN: Okay. Is it all right if I 5 approach the bench and pass out some information? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Surely. 7 MS. CHAPMAN: First of all, don't be insulted 8 by the first handout; I'm not inviting y'all, but if you 9 want to come, that's fine. I just wanted to update you on 10 something called "Healthy Aging, Hill Country Style." And I 11 kind of call this my three-legged stool. This is an event 12 that's going to occur at the Inn of the Hills here next 13 month, and what I did was work with the Extension Agent in 14 Gillespie County, as well as Texas Department of Health, 15 Dietert Senior Center, and Sid Peterson as well as Hill 16 Country Memorial Hospital, to develop an education campaign 17 for our older folks or folks who are working on getting 18 older, which I guess is all of us. But we conducted a needs 19 assessment to see what these folks need to know as far as 20 what their issues are. And so, on the back of the handout, 21 you'll see some things about, like, balance and fall 22 prevention, aging and driving, memory, things like that. 23 And these are what our seniors identified as -- as issues of 24 interest and importance to them, so we're going to have a 25 conference. 4-14-03 144 1 The keynote speaker is Mary Ann Wilson; she 2 has a TV show on PLBB called "Sit and be Fit," and she's 3 coming from Spokane, Washington to Kerrville, Texas for 4 that, and we're really excited. KLRN is running public 5 service announcements all over their 30-county area, and 6 we've even gotten phone calls now from New York; some lady 7 from New York is flying down to Kerrville, Texas for this, 8 so we're really, really excited. So, one part is the 9 conferences. Another part are exhibits, and another part is 10 health screenings, and there's a lot of health care savings 11 that result from health care screenings, so I wanted you all 12 to know about that going on. 13 But what I'm here today to talk about is 14 another wellness initiative called "Do Well, Be Well With 15 Diabetes." And you all have this handout here, and there's 16 some statistics within this handout. If you will turn to 17 the second page, under Treatment Costs, you can see that the 18 first star there mentions that for each dollar spent on 19 diabetes outpatient education, that saves $2 to $3 in 20 hospitalization costs. Also, if you go down, the last star 21 there talks about the higher hemoglobin A1c values -- which 22 I'll explain what that is in a minute -- had higher medical 23 costs over a three-year period. What is glycosylated 24 hemoglobin or hemoglobin A1c? That has to do with how many 25 sugar molecules are hooked to somebody's hemoglobin within 4-14-03 145 1 their red blood cell, and the more out of control you are as 2 a diabetic, the more of these little sugar molecules are 3 hanging on your hemoglobin. It makes your blood real sticky 4 and syrupy, so that kind of explains a little bit why 5 diabetics have a circulation problem. So, on the back here, 6 next page -- third page, you can find some dollar values 7 associated with -- depending on what your hemoglobin A1c 8 level is versus how much that costs, and as you bring down 9 that number somewhere, we hope, to 6 to 7 percent, then 10 you're saving a lot of money. Okay. 11 All right. You got all sort of statistics to 12 read over. Fifth page, Diabetes and Employment Statistics. 13 Employees who control their blood glucose levels are more 14 productive on the job and able to remain employed longer. 15 And you have your percentages there; 99 versus 87 percent 16 and 97 percent versus 85 percent, respectively, of employees 17 with good glycemic control, which again has to do with that 18 glycosylated hemoglobin, lower their absenteeism rate by 19 1 percent compared with an 8 percent increase in employees 20 with poor glycemic control. And, on average, persons with 21 diabetes from the ages of 18 to 64 lost 8.3 days per year 22 from work. That's a lot, you know, to me. And then the 23 last thing, after three months of attending a worksite 24 diabetes education program, employees with diabetes lowered 25 their mean fasting blood glucose from 198 to 180, and they 4-14-03 146 1 reduced that glycosylated hemoglobin. 2 So, what I would like to do is target 3 diabetics within the county, the County employees, and 4 invite them to kind of a lunch type of educational session 5 for a six-week period, and these classes would be for two 6 hours. They would get lunch at the sessions. They would 7 pay $15 out of their own pockets for that, 'cause they'd be 8 getting lunch, but they're going to learn about all 9 different considerations, how to control diet and actually 10 the things that they need to do, because a lot of diabetics 11 are very -- I don't want to -- I don't know what the word 12 is. They don't know a lot of times all the things they need 13 to do. They've been told things like, "Don't eat sweets," 14 okay, and really they can, but they really need to 15 understand their diet. They need to know about foot care. 16 They need to know about blood glucose monitoring and how to 17 calibrate machines. They need to know about how to assess 18 feeling in their feet. There's a little -- oh, it looks 19 kind of like one of these fiberoptic things on all these 20 tacky Christmas decorations. They tickle their foot with it 21 and they can see how much sensation they have. 22 So, there's all sort of different things they 23 need to learn, and what I'm looking at doing is an informal 24 coalition of Department -- Texas Department of Health, local 25 pharmacists, and podiatrists to get the thing off the ground 4-14-03 147 1 and running. My background is in nutrition; I'm a 2 registered dietitian, have a Master's in nutrition as well 3 as a Bachelor's degree in that, was a clinical dietitian for 4 three and a half years, taught a senior-level clinical 5 course at Texas A & M, as well as directing their graduate 6 dietetic internship program, sat on the National Board of 7 the American Dietetic Association, so I think I can handle 8 the nutrition part. But I'm really, really excited about 9 this, and hope y'all consider this. What I want to do after 10 this is go to the department heads, because, you know, 11 some -- some departments really may need folks in place, but 12 other departments may be able to release an employee for an 13 hour. But I want your consideration of this, and hopefully 14 your stamp of approval. If you have any questions, please 15 ask. I love to prattle on about stuff like this. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: How will you 17 identify people who suffer from diabetes? 18 MS. CHAPMAN: What I'm hoping to do is -- 19 well, there's a couple things. I got all exited telling 20 Judge Tinley about this. What I thought would be neat to do 21 is put kind of an advertisement in the pay inserts of the 22 county checks, and also I have this giant poster that I'd 23 like to put in the County Courthouse. It's beautiful. It 24 will -- it will raise the aesthetics of the building. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Every employee who 4-14-03 148 1 might participate in this, how many hours of paid time would 2 be used? 3 MS. CHAPMAN: Well, for each employee, it 4 would be one -- one times six, because there would be six 5 sessions. And I'd like to keep to about 12, 'cause I know 6 we can't just have the entire County employees all taking 7 off to go learn about this, so it would be on a first-come, 8 first-served basis, the 12 folks to go through it. And then 9 what I hope to do in Phase II is also take this out to the 10 financially indigent folks in our community, either through 11 Salvation Army, Raphael Free Clinic, and then you can really 12 have some health care savings. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Amy, in the County 14 employees, do you have any idea how many of the employees 15 are diabetic? 16 MS. CHAPMAN: Well, in Texas, the average for 17 any population is about 6 percent, but here in Kerr County 18 it's about 6.4 percent of our -- our population is 19 diabetics, so I would assume it's somewhere between 6 to 20 6.4 percent of our County employees. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was trying to get an 22 idea as to, I mean, the cost. I mean, I would hate for a 23 County employee not to go because of the $15 cost, and if 24 it's not that much money, I would really recommend that the 25 County try to find a way to absorb that $15 fee, because I 4-14-03 149 1 just -- I mean, this is one of the things that we can do, 2 and the -- you know. 3 MS. CHAPMAN: Be $90. If you guys want to 4 spring for the 90 bucks, that's fine with me. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me -- let me -- if I 6 might, you're going to do a preliminary screen to try and 7 determine if these people are Type 2 or potentially Type 2 8 diabetic? 9 MS. CHAPMAN: Right. We need some sort of 10 proof. They can get some sort of -- what they can do is 11 have -- get a referral from their physician for the program, 12 if they're diabetic. We can also do -- which would be 13 really neat to do, is a diabetes risk assessment. This has 14 been shown -- it's a paper assessment, but it's been shown 15 to be just as accurate as getting those lovely little finger 16 sticks, so we could do that as well. I think that would be 17 a neat event to do. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I think it would be 19 appropriate to do some sort of an assessment, and then once 20 you identify or possibly identify them, select a maximum of 21 12 at any point in time, and those 12 would be involved in a 22 six-week program, two hours per week. Now, the $15, when 23 you consider that the -- the cost also includes their 24 furnished lunch during that period of time, so they're 25 probably saving money, if the truth were known. If you 4-14-03 150 1 figure what it costs for lunch for six weeks -- for six 2 times, why, they're probably saving money. But if there's a 3 problem, I think the County will get their money back. The 4 benefit that the County derives is more productivity of the 5 employee by virtue of their education or being able to 6 better take care of themselves, less loss of time from work, 7 lower health care costs to themselves and to the County, and 8 in the overall scheme of things -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Preaching to the choir 10 here. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 12 MS. CHAPMAN: It's much more cost-effective 13 to educate somebody than it is to have to pay for an 14 amputation. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I think any kind 16 of program you come up with along this line, I'd be totally 17 supportive of anything that will -- preventive health care, 18 to me, is where we need to be moving in the County. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We need -- 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We might want to 21 draw the line at aromatherapy. 22 MS. CHAPMAN: What's wrong with smelly 23 candles? I like smelly candles. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We need to convince 25 our insurance company, though, to get on board with that 4-14-03 151 1 type of thing, and they will not. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 3 MS. CHAPMAN: I would be happy to speak to 4 somebody from that insurance company sometime, if you ever 5 -- if the opportunity ever arises. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can start by going 7 down there and getting your hands around Tommy's neck, 8 maybe, and choking him a little bit. This is great. This 9 is fantastic. I'm 10 times -- big-time supportive of it. I 10 support everything do you, Amy. 11 MS. CHAPMAN: Well, thank you. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: That was a motion? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And a second, if I can 14 get it. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 17 seconded by Commissioners Baldwin and Letz that the County 18 approve the establishment of a wellness program for Kerr 19 County employees to be overseen by the Extension Service; 20 specifically, Ms. Chapman. Any further discussion? If not, 21 all in favor, signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. We 4-14-03 152 1 appreciate it, Ms. Chapman. 2 MS. CHAPMAN: All right. Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: We're going to really save 4 some money when we get this over into our Indigent Health 5 Care area. These people don't have a clue that they're 6 diabetic, don't have a clue what to do about it. They 7 mainly need to just be educated. What happens is, they get 8 to a point where they just crash. Then they go to the 9 hospital on our nickel. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. We might 11 be able to turn it over to the Airport Board. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we could. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Being as they're 14 doctors. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Any further 16 action? Anybody have any further business under the items 17 posted for today? Hearing nothing, I will declare the 18 meeting adjourned. 19 (Commissioners Court meeting adjourned at 12:44 p.m.) 20 - - - - - - - - - - 21 22 23 24 25 4-14-03 153 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 22nd day of April, 8 2003. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4-14-03