1 2 3 KERRVILLE CITY COUNCIL 4 and 5 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 6 City/County Joint Programs Budget Workshop 7 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8 4:00 p.m. 9 City Council Chambers 10 800 Junction Highway 11 Kerrville, Texas 12 13 14 15 P R E S E N T 16 Kerrville City Council: 17 STEPHEN P. FINE, Mayor 18 DAVID WAMPLER, Mayor Pro Tem OLLIE D. BROWN, Place 1 19 LARRY W. HOWARD, Place 2 EUGENE C. SMITH, Place 4 20 RON PATTERSON, City Manager 21 Kerr County Commissioners Court: 22 PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge 23 H.A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 24 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 25 2 1 I N D E X July 29,2003 2 PAGE 3 Call to Order 3 4 1. Discussion of Joint Budgeted items between City/County including, but not limited to: 5 6 a. Fire Protection/ Emergency Management 8 7 b. EMS/First Responder 39 8 c. Prisoner Support 68 9 d. Narcotics Task Force 71 10 e. Airport Operations 76 11 f. Recycling 123 12 g. Library 147 13 h. Animal Control 159 14 i. Tax Collection 163 15 2. Discussion of other potential Joint Ventures 16 including, but not limited to: 17 a. Municipal Court 166 18 b. Subdivision rules and regulations in Kerrville ETJ 172 19 20 Adjourned 186 21 22 23 24 25 7-29-03 jcc 3 1 On Tuesday, July 29, 2001, at 4:00 p.m., a joint 2 meeting of the Kerrville City Council and the Kerr County 3 Commissioners Court was held at City Council Chambers, 800 4 Junction Highway, Kerrville, Texas, and the following 5 proceedings were had in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 MAYOR FINE: We're going to call the meeting 8 to order. This is a joint program budget work session 9 between City of Kerrville City Council and the Kerr County 10 Commissioners Court, Tuesday, July 29th, 2003. We want to 11 welcome everyone here this evening, especially welcome the 12 County Commissioners and whoever else they brought along 13 with them, and welcome the -- everyone in the audience and 14 media who are here today. This meeting is to discuss our 15 joint ventures projects, ownership that we have between the 16 City and the County. We're going to -- I guess you need to 17 call your meeting to order also. Why don't you go ahead and 18 do that? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll call to order the 20 Commissioners Court portion of the City/County joint 21 programs budget workshop. For the record, all Commissioners 22 and the Judge are present, and joined by the members of the 23 City Council in the matter, all being present. 24 MAYOR FINE: Okay. The first item on the 25 agenda is a discussion and appropriate action, if needed, of 7-29-03 jcc 4 1 joint-budgeted items between City/County, including, but not 2 limited to, fire suppression/emergency management -- you 3 want me to do -- I'll just go ahead and list them all; then 4 we can just buzz right through them. EMS medical 5 support/First Responder, prisoner support, police task 6 force, airport operations, community recycling center, 7 library, animal control, and tax collection. Mr. Patterson, 8 I believe you're going to lead us on this one. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. Thank y'all very 10 much for taking time out of your busy schedules to be with 11 us tonight, and really do appreciate it. I'm going to 12 hand -- there's another handout for you here. What this is, 13 is it's a copy of the Power Point presentation. It has some 14 additional slides in it, that type thing. We've created a 15 little pamphlet for you where you can take notes on the 16 right-hand side if you'd like to. We've provided some 17 pencils and other things if you need that. If you need some 18 more paper or anything, please let us know; we'll be glad to 19 provide that. But this way, we can just walk through this. 20 Give you -- yeah, they're going to make more 21 copies of these, so pass them around till they run out, and 22 then if you need more, Brian will be back with some more. 23 The format -- the format for this evening that we thought we 24 would do -- or this afternoon, I should say, is that we 25 would -- staff will present for you the information 7-29-03 jcc 5 1 summaries, let you take a look at that, and then obviously 2 we would like to ask you to either ask questions during the 3 comment period, or after we've finished presenting the 4 information to you. Either way will work for us. We're 5 very flexible to whichever one you want to do. If you want 6 to stop us midstream, please feel free to do so. If, 7 however, you would like to wait till the end of that, that's 8 fine just as well. The way that we have planned to do this 9 this afternoon is that I'm going to do the summary 10 information, provide that to you, go through that with you 11 today. I will be the primary speaker, and then I do have 12 our staff here with regard to any specific questions within 13 the departments or the departmental budgets, so they can 14 answer those for you. I will admit, I don't know every line 15 item by heart, so obviously, they -- they have those budgets 16 and can answer some of those questions for you. Let me see 17 if I can get this fired up here. 18 MAYOR FINE: Ron, are we going to try to go 19 through each topic and allow that staff person to leave? Or 20 are they going to stay the entire time? 21 MR. PATTERSON: They can leave after they 22 finish that. However, if you feel like there's going to be 23 additional discussion at the end of the meeting, if you want 24 to do it that way, the staff members can stay. 25 MAYOR FINE: Okay, pal. 7-29-03 jcc 6 1 MR. PATTERSON: I'll be glad to do that 2 either way you would like to. Okay. At the end of each 3 one, I will be asking if you want them to stay or not, or if 4 you feel like it's completed with regard to that. With 5 regard to this, the first thing that I wanted to be able to 6 do for you today -- first thing's not going to work. 7 MAYOR FINE: There's Brian. 8 MR. PATTERSON: First thing that we'll do 9 today, without that, is I would like for you to refer to the 10 summary sheet that is in the very front of your notebook, 11 which is under Tab 2. I wanted to touch very quickly on a 12 couple of changes. You'll note that when you came in, staff 13 was changing out a couple pages, and I wanted to explain 14 those changes to you. I apologize for the last minute of 15 that; however, they're good changes. They're a savings. 16 And one of the things that I would like to do is, if you 17 look at that sheet, Commissioners and Council members, you 18 should have on there highlighted areas that are either in 19 yellow or red or purple, and what you'll note is that in 20 those areas that are highlighted in yellow or the purple, 21 were changes that were made from the time that we were able 22 to publish this document several weeks ago. 23 What I'd like to point out to you is that, if 24 you look under EMS Medical Director, you'll see that that 25 number went down from 21,916 to 19,342. Under the First 7-29-03 jcc 7 1 Responders, that went down to 13,331, thus changing the 2 numbers at the bottom on the City for the FY '04 of the 3 $1.8 million under the EMS and medical director. Again, 4 we'll be going through all these numbers in detail, but what 5 I'm wanting to point out to you is simply the fact that, 6 overall, we had a net reduction for County participation of 7 $8,260 because two things happened. One is that we made a 8 discovery as we were going through this, in that the EMS 9 Coordinator was able to go ahead and complete a course that 10 he had been working on for some time, and is going to be 11 able to take care of the First Responder training in this 12 current fiscal year, and will not need that additional 13 $6,000 that was in there previously. And, again, we will go 14 through that in detail as I get there, but that is part of 15 the change. 16 The other change is that our medical 17 director -- on that particular item, we also found that 18 there was a reduction last year in that amount that we did 19 not pick up when we published the document. So, the bottom 20 line is, that went from a $25,000 cost to a $20,000 cost. 21 It's about 20 -- $2,500 apiece that we saw a savings there. 22 So, again, I will go through that in great detail, but I 23 just wanted to point out to you that there has been some 24 minor changes. They are all to the good in terms of -- they 25 are savings with regard to the cost of those programs. 7-29-03 jcc 8 1 Other than that, I'm ready to go ahead and move into each of 2 the items, if would you like me to, or if you have any 3 specific questions on those changes that I just went over. 4 Okay. The -- you may want to pull out that spreadsheet 5 that's under Tab 2. It's up to you, but you can set that to 6 the side as we go through each of the tabs and you can see 7 the totals on that spreadsheet as we go through each of 8 these items. 9 The first item for discussion this evening is 10 the fire suppression and EMS contract. A little bit of 11 history here. You may recall that approximately 12 years 12 ago, the City and the County entered into an agreement 13 whereby there is fire service provided by the city fire 14 department out into the outlying areas, outside the city 15 limits. Originally, that contract started with an issue in 16 the Kerrville South area, which, when we say Kerrville 17 South, however, it's much larger than the definition that 18 most people think of with regard to the size of the area. 19 As a matter of fact, let me show you this, and we'll go back 20 to it. What you see in the yellow area is the city of 21 Kerrville. What you see in the purple area is what is 22 defined as the area within the Kerrville South contract -- 23 or fire service contract. The remainder, which is in the 24 green, is in what we call the general contract for fire 25 services out into the county. 7-29-03 jcc 9 1 With regard to this, again, there was a -- a 2 contract that was put together approximately 12 years ago; 3 was examined. Everyone agreed at that point in time that, 4 you know, providing this service was the right thing to do 5 to be able to get that -- the service out there. In 6 addition to that, during that time frame as well, there was 7 also an Emergency Manager Coordinator position that was 8 created. In that time frame, there was some discussion 9 about being able to manage and -- and deal with emergency 10 management overall. You'll recall that this last year, we 11 obviously put that into full swing with the flood of last 12 summer. That operation went into effect whereby we have our 13 Fire Chief, who acts as the emergency operations center 14 manager for the county. And when I say "the county," I mean 15 all of us; I mean that in a -- an egalitarian term with all 16 of us. 17 The bottom line is -- is that during that 18 time frame, you will recall that the mayor was called in, 19 the county -- the then County Judge; we also had the 20 Sheriff, as well as department heads from the City who were 21 called into the emergency operations center, and that 22 facility was stood up. But, again, all of that 23 responsibility with regard to coordinating that, those 24 actions, not only emergency operations center, but also 25 execution of our emergency operations plan falls on the 7-29-03 jcc 10 1 emergency management coordinator position that was created. 2 And, again, that falls to the Fire Chief and his assistants. 3 Let me back up here. In looking at the 4 information for this last year, in looking at call volumes 5 as well as, you know, what the cost is with regard to 6 providing these services, both for the emergency operations 7 manager as well as for the fire suppression overall, what we 8 are proposing and requesting is that you'll see here in this 9 summary right now, we currently have a general contract for 10 providing the fire service of $65,000. That is to provide 11 that entire area that you saw in the green that was on the 12 map. There is a proposal at this point in time to recommend 13 or request a $25,000 increase to that particular contract. 14 And I'm going to walk through the numbers and run the call 15 numbers and everything in just a moment; I'll show you all 16 the data behind that. 17 In addition to that, there's also the 18 Kerrville South area, which was the area that you saw that 19 was defined in that -- in that purple area on the map. As a 20 matter of fact, let me do this. As you can see here on the 21 map, again, as I said, in the purple area, it's somewhat 22 misleading calling it Kerrville South, because so many 23 people think of just that small Kerrville South area, but 24 that's not what's described in the description within the 25 agreement. In addition to that, you'll see there that that 7-29-03 jcc 11 1 would be a subtotal of $125,000 for those services. The 2 City's proposed budget at this point in time -- and, again, 3 the Council is seeing these numbers, as you have, again, in 4 this budget presentation for the first time -- 5 at $2.6 million overall for the fire suppression services. 6 Backup data here is we have an average of about 500 calls 7 for the last nine months. We have now -- and, again, I'll 8 show you this data in a moment. There's an extrapolation 9 out for the -- an 11-year period, taking 2003-2004 as well, 10 and including that data. The nine-year average is about a 11 21 percent call volume outside the city; 24 percent -- and 12 the current year-to-date is about 24 percent. However, if 13 this extrapolates out like it has over the last several 14 years, that will probably drop down to be around the 15 21 percent, 20 percent range. I can show you those numbers 16 here in just one second. 17 You've already seen the map. Basically, what 18 we have here for you is, we have a breakdown of the fire 19 suppression run counts and percentages. What you'll see 20 here is we -- we do keep track of the runs with regard to 21 runs that are within the corporate city limits and those 22 that are outside. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ron, excuse me. Do you 24 keep track of the difference between the purple area and 25 green area? 7-29-03 jcc 12 1 MR. PATTERSON: Actually, we -- we tried to 2 see if we could take that and break it out. The way we 3 currently have it coded, the answer is no, we cannot at this 4 point in time. However, it's something that we are going to 5 try and do in the future and code those so that we can keep 6 those separately for you. But it's a good question, about 7 looking at the -- as a matter of fact, we tried to do that 8 in preparation for this, and we were not able to do that. 9 As of right now, you'll see that you have an average here of 10 about 109 runs outside the corporate limits, 443 runs in the 11 city. The percent that are county runs is averaging about 12 20 percent, 19.8 percent. With that -- Brian, would you 13 help me out? I also have a copy of this chart as well as 14 the others, 'cause I would like you to have that data to be 15 able to take with you. 16 One of the things that we did with that data 17 was, we also did a -- a linear trend analysis on it. Bottom 18 line, it says we're going to take an average out over the 19 numbers every year, and what does it look like it's going to 20 do if it continues based on the past trend? And what you'll 21 see is -- is that, overall, the call volume in the city 22 as -- as a result -- as a total of the total run volume is 23 actually on a decline, whereas on the county, it is on an 24 incline. It's not a huge incline, but it is an incline. 25 Again, this shows you both what the actual call volumes are, 7-29-03 jcc 13 1 both in the purple and the blue line, and then the linear 2 projection to show you what the trend analysis is in the 3 yellow and the red line. Are there any questions thus far? 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got a question. 5 Can you turn it back to the map? 6 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The County contracts 8 with eight entities to provide fire protection in the city, 9 City of Kerrville and seven volunteer fire departments. And 10 if you examine that geographic area that the City of 11 Kerrville provides the service compared to the rest of the 12 county, it's -- it's roughly one-eighth, somewhere around 13 there, pretty close. City of Kerrville is providing service 14 to us for approximately one-eighth of the geographic area. 15 The -- the population or the density of residents is 16 probably greater than some of the volunteer fire department 17 areas, but not greater than all of them. So, what I'm 18 looking at is, if we're paying the City of Kerrville now 19 $100,000, maybe $125,000 a year, to do what we pay the other 20 seven entities, the other seven aides to the County, a total 21 of $77,000 a year, so either we made a heck of a deal 22 dealing with the other seven agencies, or we didn't make a 23 very good deal with the City of Kerrville. I got one more 24 question, and I want to look at the data on the number of 25 calls. This one. 7-29-03 jcc 14 1 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The County has grown 3 over that 10-year period. I don't know what percentage of 4 change is; somebody here probably does, but I can't account 5 for why the number of calls have doubled, what we're doing. 6 Is Kerrville doing -- providing different kinds of service 7 than 10 years ago? Or do we have more fires, or what's 8 going on? 9 MR. PATTERSON: I think I'm going to let the 10 Chief answer that. 11 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, let me get the chart. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Go back to that. 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: Now, the only year that they 14 actually -- 1994, that was the only year that was really 15 down. If you'll look at the others, it's -- except for '99, 16 it's staying pretty -- pretty much on the average of a 17 little over 100 calls. We've got a couple years that are up 18 and a couple years are down. You know, it's real hard to 19 tell -- you know, one year we may have a lot of grass fires 20 or brush fires and we assist in the county, and another year 21 we may not have any. This year, as wet as it is, we may not 22 go into the county much for those type of fires. And this 23 includes automobile accidents. It's not just structure 24 fires or grass fires, but there's automobile accidents, and 25 we -- that's in this figure also. We cover a lot of the 7-29-03 jcc 15 1 interstate for automobiles. 2 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: What portion of those county 4 runs constitute structure fires? Do we have that number? 5 MR. HOLLOWAY: I don't have that broken down. 6 I mean, we can break that down. I don't have that figure 7 with me. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: What portion constitute backup 9 calls or standby calls to automobile accidents on state or 10 public roadways? Out -- I assume if it's -- if it's on a 11 roadway and it's outside the corporate limits of the city of 12 Kerrville, it's classified as a county run, isn't it? 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's correct, yes. And as 14 far as standby, any time -- any time we make a response to 15 an automobile accident or a drowning or -- well, drowning 16 may not -- well, if we have a rescue, our dive team out 17 there, that would be considered in that. None of these 18 calls are standby or assist EMS calls. None of these calls 19 constitute that. That's what we consider a First Responder 20 call, and those numbers are not in this. But any time we go 21 out -- but as far as percentage of those, I don't know. I 22 can just tell you right -- I don't have -- I can get that 23 figure for you, but I don't have it right now. All we have 24 is how many calls we've made into the county. 25 MR. PATTERSON: These numbers do represent 7-29-03 jcc 16 1 actual services provided. As he said, standby or First 2 Responder calls are not included in these numbers. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: So, if you respond to an 4 automobile accident, it's not included in any of those 5 figures unless you actually perform a fire suppression 6 service? An active fire suppression service? 7 MR. HOLLOWAY: Some type of rescue service, 8 you know. If we have to extricate a patient or that type of 9 operation, or maybe even put out a fire, even to wash down 10 an oil or a gas spill -- well, we don't actually wash it 11 down any more; we clean it up. That would be part of that. 12 Now, if we're just out there assisting an ambulance crew 13 with a patient, no, that's not in there. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Irrespective of you -- 15 of where these may occur out in the county, do you happen to 16 have any -- any figures or tabulations of who these services 17 are provided to? Are they city residents? Non-city 18 residents? Are they residents of the county or transients, 19 for that matter? 20 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, that would take a lot of 21 manual work to do that. I mean, we'd have to sit down and 22 look at each one of the reports and determine if that's a 23 city resident or what -- whatever. I guess it doesn't 24 really matter if it's a city resident or not. I mean, 25 they're still county residents, and they're -- and we're 7-29-03 jcc 17 1 actually responding into the county. 2 MR. PATTERSON: Bottom line is that, with 3 regard to fire service, it's usually like P.O.S., point of 4 service. Wherever the service is provided is usually how 5 they're counted. 6 MAYOR FINE: Yeah, 'cause we wouldn't count 7 the county residents in the city if they had an automobile 8 accident. Where they're from really is irrelevant to where 9 the call is happening. 10 MR. PATTERSON: Well, even if they're from 11 out of state, as you said, a transient -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 13 MR. PATTERSON: -- inside the city or outside 14 the city or whatever, we -- again, as I said, we just do our 15 counts based on point of service. 16 MAYOR FINE: And a lot of the things Raymond 17 would provide and the fire department provide are services 18 probably that the volunteer fire departments don't provide 19 or can't provide. So, you know, whether you're paying for 20 two services that are identical, I have to say no. 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, and some of these calls 22 could be to assist the volunteer fire departments if they 23 have a structure fire and it's beyond their capability to -- 24 to put the fire out, and they call for assistance. At the 25 same time, if we have a situation in the city limits and we 7-29-03 jcc 18 1 need help, we'll call the volunteer fire departments to help 2 us. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Mayor, the 4 argument the volunteer fire departments would make, and do 5 make, is that they're better capable of handling brush fires 6 than Kerrville because they've got different and better 7 equipment. 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'd never argue against that. 9 MAYOR FINE: Right, but the only time they 10 call is when they need help, unless I'm mistaken, too. We 11 don't -- 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And make the 13 argument that, on a structure fire, that -- that the City's 14 truck goes out there and squirts its water, and it's not a 15 lot of water. There aren't any hydrants, and they're out of 16 business. But -- but the volunteer fire department can go 17 out there and shuttle a number of trucks back and forth and 18 keep water on the fire. 19 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, and to add to that, when 20 we go out there, we depend on the volunteers to shuttle 21 water to us too, put water in our tank to help us do that. 22 'Cause you're right, we only carry about 700 gallons of 23 water on that truck, and it doesn't take long for that to 24 dissipate. So, yeah, we depend on the volunteers for water 25 in the county, whether it's shuttling it back and forth, 7-29-03 jcc 19 1 pumping out of the river, whatever. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah, I -- probably 3 evaluating the relative capabilities of the various 4 departments, it's not -- 5 MAYOR FINE: Like I said, but the only time 6 we go is to assist. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No doubt. Kerrville 8 Fire Department is -- is very capable. I'm not at all 9 making that argument. 10 MAYOR FINE: See, we use a Hurst, too, on a 11 lot of regular calls. Some of the volunteer fire 12 departments don't have that capability. I believe Ingram 13 might. I believe they still have that capability. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Raymond, we had 15 somewhat of this conversation yesterday in Commissioners 16 Court, and there was a comment made in our room that -- this 17 is a quote -- the City, when you go outside into the county, 18 must keep its "wheels on the pavement." And what that means 19 to me is that you no longer fight brush fires. Do you not 20 have brush fighting equipment? 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, I'm not sure where that 22 came from. We do have a brush truck. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm asking you a 24 question. 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, we do have a brush truck, 7-29-03 jcc 20 1 and it is -- I'll use an example. The Hunt Volunteer Fire 2 Department has an old duece and a half. That thing -- when 3 I first started here, and you too, we had an old deuce and a 4 half, and you could go anywhere in that. Well, our truck 5 can't do what that deuce and a half can do. We can't go out 6 into the woods like that, but we do have a brush truck, and 7 we're capable as far as getting out into the -- the boonies, 8 where -- we don't have as much capability as they do, but 9 yeah, we do have a brush truck. 10 MR. PATTERSON: And they do get off the 11 pavement. 12 MR. HOLLOWAY: They do get off the pavement. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I knew you did. I 14 wanted to ask one more question. Your -- your chart here 15 only goes back to FY '03, where the fire contract was 16 $100,000. If we went back to '02, wasn't it 75? 17 MR. HOLLOWAY: It was 75, right. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 75, and then '03, we 19 went to 100. And -- 20 MR. PATTERSON: Is this -- to clarify, you're 21 talking about this next one? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got seven or 23 eight here in front of me that I'm working off of. 24 MR. PATTERSON: All right. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think they all say 7-29-03 jcc 21 1 the same thing, though. Yes, that one there. 2 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: From -- from '02 to 4 '03 is $25,000 increase, and six runs -- county runs. And 5 then from -- 6 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'm not sure that's correct. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just working off 8 y'all's numbers; that's all I have to work with. 9 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'm not looking at that. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, mine says six 11 runs. And then from '03 to '04, if we go another $25,000, 12 that is five runs from '03 to '04. 13 MAYOR FINE: You mean additional runs? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 15 MAYOR FINE: I see what you're saying. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Some of you math guys 17 can -- you know, how much is that a run increase? That's a 18 pretty good increase. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, it is, and I can 20 explain that one. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't -- it probably 22 doesn't matter to me if you explain it or not. 23 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. Well, I think it does 24 need some explanation. It's a good question. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, good. 7-29-03 jcc 22 1 MR. PATTERSON: The bottom line is that when 2 you look at fire service, whether -- and you look at the 3 point of service, one of the billing issues with regard to 4 fire service, whether it's provided by a city, a county, or 5 volunteer fire department, there is a fixed cost for 6 availability of service. And the availability of service is 7 a cost that's there whether you make one run or you make 100 8 runs. And, in this particular case, what we're looking at 9 is the fact that, if you look at this chart, you're right, 10 there's not a huge number of runs; however, our costs are 11 going up because we've got additional firefighters, new 12 equipment, all kinds of things that are still rolled into 13 those numbers. One of the things that we started to take a 14 look at was, if you take a look back at history and what the 15 percentage of runs were with regard to being -- in other 16 words, what's provided by this particular department, you'll 17 see that -- you know, and, again, I've only gone back to 18 '02, but you can go back to the other chart there and look 19 and see that you're looking at 10 percent, 12 percent, 15, 20 18, 20 percent. And what you can see is, when you look at 21 20 percent of runs, and $100,000 is, you know, 4 percent of 22 the budget, you do have to ask yourself the question of, 23 well, 20 percent of the total runs being provided by the 24 department and are outside of the corporate limits, but 25 4 percent of the budget is being provided. And so from that 7-29-03 jcc 23 1 perspective, we did look at it. We took a look at, you 2 know, in terms of what do we feel would be reasonable with 3 regard to participation in those programs with regard to 4 having that service available. And you are absolutely 5 right, sir, there's not a huge swing in the numbers. It's a 6 matter of we have ongoing costs and increase in costs that 7 are going every year. 8 MAYOR FINE: Buster, if you want to specify, 9 pick out specific years, you can go from '94 to '95, and it 10 went up by 41 runs. '95 to '96, it went up 32 runs. There 11 was no increase in costs, so that was a pretty substantial 12 savings per run on those years. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 14 MAYOR FINE: So, I mean, like I said, you 15 have to look at the overall trend, not just between one year 16 to the next. It's -- the trend line, I think, tells the 17 story more than anything does. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then another 19 question would be -- and this may have been already asked; I 20 missed it. Do you have an idea of how many runs are 21 going -- that you've had into Kerrville South proper? 22 Not -- I'm not talking about Harper Road and all that. I'm 23 talking about where I live. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, the contract states 25 Kerrville South Volunteer Fire Department area, and that's 7-29-03 jcc 24 1 that big area which includes everything north. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: And the problem with that 4 is -- is when you get a call, you'd have to look at the 5 address and then keep track of that, and our program right 6 now, it's set up just to show city calls, county calls, and 7 brings it down. In order to do that, we'd have to -- every 8 time we had a county call, we'd have to check and see if 9 it's in the Kerrville South area or if it's in the other 10 part of the county. We haven't been doing that, and -- and 11 it's something that I think we're probably going to start 12 doing in the future, to keep track of those calls into that 13 Kerrville South area, because it's pretty time-consuming 14 when you have 6,000 calls -- run sheets you have to go 15 through trying to figure out which goes where. I mean, so, 16 it's a pretty big job. 17 MR. PATTERSON: I would like to echo 18 something the Chief just said, too. Right now, our system 19 is somewhat dated with regard to how we manage -- how we 20 manage our data with regard to how we know where all the 21 runs are. However, if we're successful this next year with 22 regard to our dispatch system that we're looking at -- this 23 particular map was generated off of our new GIS system. 24 What we would hope to be able to do in the not-too-distant 25 future is, with the new dispatch system, gather the 7-29-03 jcc 25 1 addressing -- you know, specific addresses, even, not just 2 general areas; be able to gather that data and then plot 3 that in a map and map it for you, so we'll be able to show 4 you where the calls are. We want to be able to do that for 5 not only police, but fire and EMS, so we can also do better 6 management with regard to location of facilities. So, the 7 bottom line is -- is, hopefully here in the very near 8 future -- it's probably 18 months out -- 12 to 18 months 9 out, if all the funding occurs, we hopefully will be able to 10 map that for you, and literally -- hopefully maybe even next 11 year -- that's kind of ambitious, but literally show you, 12 boom, "Here's where the calls are." And hopefully we'll be 13 able to get there shortly. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Raymond, one more. Do 15 you know the response time to Nimitz School? 16 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, not right offhand, but 17 I'm kind of guessing at about four minutes maybe from 18 central station. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was thinking seven. 20 Central being at the V.A.? 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: No, Water Street. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Four minutes is 23 pretty fast. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: I think we can probably make 25 it in about four, maybe five minutes. But without driving 7-29-03 jcc 26 1 it, you know, that's just off the top of my head. The other 2 station that would respond to that would be the one out by 3 Legion Drive. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. You 5 answered my questions. Thank you very much. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Patterson, I'm a little 7 confused about the numbers. You specified general 8 contracts, 65; Kerrville South, 35. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: And that our general contract 11 is, therefore, at 65. The -- the documentation that I've 12 seen -- and maybe I haven't seen all the documentation that 13 I need to see -- provides that a number of years ago, I 14 believe it was probably in Fiscal '95/'96, Kerrville South 15 was added for a consideration of $25,000. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead, Chief. 17 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's correct. And two years 18 ago, when we got the additional increase, part of that 19 increase was for the Kerrville South area, from 25 to 35. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Was it specifically broken out 21 in the agreement that way? 22 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, I can't remember if it 23 was or not. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Going back and looking at the 25 amendment, you're absolutely right. It was not broken out; 7-29-03 jcc 27 1 it's a lump sum. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I was thinking it was. I 3 don't -- 4 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, that's correct. 5 It's in Paragraph 2 of that amendment to the firefighter -- 6 firefighting agreement. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The proposed increase 8 this year would be to the general contract or the Kerrville 9 South? 10 MR. PATTERSON: Well, if you want to go -- 11 one of the things we probably need to do is address the 12 issue that the Judge brought up, and that is right now, the 13 way that this agreement's written, it's in a lump sum amount 14 that's not broken out between the two. So, we will either 15 need to -- if this is done, we'll either need to continue on 16 with the lump sum and stop breaking it out the way we have, 17 or we need -- whenever this is rewritten for this next year, 18 we need to make sure we break it out properly. But, either 19 way, it -- it either needs to be addressed one way or the 20 other. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have two, I think, 22 brief questions. 23 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Raymond, on the calls or 25 the runs that are made out into the county, most of those, 7-29-03 jcc 28 1 did the volunteer fire departments also respond? Or was 2 your department there alone? 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, if it's in the Kerrville 4 South area, we're alone. If it's in the rest of the area, 5 we're generally assisting the volunteer fire departments. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, they're -- both 7 departments are going on out? 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: Right. And, fact is, the way 9 the original contract was set up, we would not respond into 10 the green area unless a volunteer fire department requested 11 our assistance or we didn't hear a response from the 12 volunteer fire department in about a four-minute response 13 time. So, for example, if Center Point was toned out and we 14 didn't hear them respond within four minutes, then we would 15 go ahead and respond to that area. In the Kerrville South 16 area, we'd respond as a First Responder. We'd -- you know, 17 we get the call, we respond with one fire truck into that 18 area and we get out there. If we need assistance in those 19 areas, then we do request volunteer fire departments. In 20 fact, I know there's been a lot of times that we've 21 requested Turtle Creek and Ingram and Center Point, 22 depending on where the fire is and how it -- you know, 23 whether it's a -- how big the fire is. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And my other question, 25 the pink area, when was the last time that was reviewed as 7-29-03 jcc 29 1 to -- I guess, one, how did that area come into being? And 2 do we need to modify it? 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, I think -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question, based on 5 development. 6 MR. HOLLOWAY: Based on my memory, it was one 7 of the Commissioners -- whatever precinct that is there -- 8 there, borderline -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's 3. It's part of 10 precinct -- well, it's actually part of all four precincts, 11 I believe. 12 MR. PATTERSON: I was going to say, that 13 changed since then. 14 MR. HOLLOWAY: Kerrville South Volunteer Fire 15 Department was in operation back then. That was basically 16 the area that they covered. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I guess my basic 18 question is, has that area been updated with the amount of 19 development going on in that area to make sure that there 20 is -- you know, that everyone knows who the first fire 21 department or First Responder is on certain calls in certain 22 subdivisions? And if you go back to the other map, you can 23 see it appears that that purple area was drawn because of 24 the way road access is to some of those areas. 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: And I think that -- 7-29-03 jcc 30 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That may be pretty far 2 out. The way you get there is, you have to do it through 3 Kerrville. 4 MR. HOLLOWAY: You're right. As far as 5 looking at it, no, it hasn't been reviewed. In fact, I 6 don't guess it's ever been reviewed. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's just -- to 8 make sure that the coverage is proper, it probably ought to 9 be done when we do the contracts. 10 MR. PATTERSON: Let me clarify one thing, 11 too. With regard to the purple area coverage, we are the 12 primary responder, correct? 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's correct. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. I just wanted to be 15 sure. 16 MR. HOLLOWAY: The only area that might -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. HOLLOWAY: -- really might be changed 19 would be toward Ingram, I think. I don't think that Center 20 Point or Kerrville South -- I mean Turtle Creek or -- well, 21 there's nobody north. I don't think they've -- they've 22 taken on any more area. I think -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm looking at -- I see a 24 little -- over on the far eastern side, kind of -- there's 25 that green little area that sticks out down there. You have 7-29-03 jcc 31 1 to get there -- 2 MR. HOLLOWAY: This right here? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go up. 4 MR. HOLLOWAY: This is out toward The Woods. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But more up towards -- in 6 between Highway 27 -- 7 MR. HOLLOWAY: Oh, here? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Further up. 9 THE WITNESS: Up in this area? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Little spot you can't -- 11 you can't get to it unless you go through the purple area. 12 And it's -- I think we need to look at some of these to make 13 sure that -- I don't know how Center Point or Comfort could 14 get there without going through Kerrville or through the 15 Kerrville primary area. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Quite frankly, one of the 17 things we may want to look at is doing like you're talking 18 about, I think the idea of the response zones. Simply say, 19 okay, here's the city. Here's the response zone that 20 surrounds the city, sort of like ETJ, and then outside of 21 that, you know -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm just saying -- where I'm 23 going is simply the fact that what you're doing is -- is 24 that way, the further out you get, then you've got, you 25 know, your primary responder in the city, primary responder 7-29-03 jcc 32 1 outside the city to a certain area. And then the volunteer 2 fire departments, being the primary responder with us, as 3 follow-on. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 MR. PATTERSON: But it's a good point. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a quick 7 question for the chief. Chief, in a recent Center Point 8 fire at the Townsend house, did the Kerrville Fire 9 Department respond as the secondary, or did Center Point not 10 call you or what? 11 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, they -- it took a while 12 before we got the call on that. I -- we responded, but it 13 was after a while. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Gone by the time you 15 got there? 16 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir. 17 MAYOR FINE: The way it's been explained to 18 me since I've been around is, lots of times volunteer fire 19 departments go out. If they see they can't handle it at 20 that time -- that's not the right term. If it seizes more 21 than their assets will cover, they'll call. It's not always 22 at the exact moment. Lots of times they don't know till 23 they get there exactly what-all's going to be needed. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: Speaking as a firefighter, 25 there's certain things you feel like you can do when you 7-29-03 jcc 33 1 roll up on a fire, and you -- and you try to attack the fire 2 and do what you can with what you've got, and before you 3 know it, it -- it's away from you. It gets away from you. 4 So, what happens is, you're -- now you're in the heat of the 5 battle, and the last thing you're going to think of is, "I 6 better call somebody to help me." Now, if there's somebody 7 over there that -- that's -- you know, thinks, "Well we 8 better get some help; we can't handle it ourselves," then 9 they'll call us. Sometimes that delays our response getting 10 there. And, of course, you know, it takes a while for us to 11 get out to some of those places. And then, like I said, you 12 know, we -- we only have a certain amount of water we carry 13 on those trucks. And, to give you an example, we carry 14 700 gallons of water, and those trucks are capable of 15 pumping 1,500 gallons of water in a minute. So the driver's 16 got to be real careful how he does that. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you say 30 19 seconds? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, about that. 21 MR. PATTERSON: Other questions? Moving out 22 of the fire suppression into the emergency management, 23 you'll note there on your spreadsheet that there's a total 24 of $1,000 difference being projected for this next year. 25 The rationale for that and the reason for that particular 7-29-03 jcc 34 1 request was that during the initial stand-up of the 2 emergency operations center during this last -- last July 3 when we had the flood, the bottom line is -- is that we -- 4 we recognized very quickly that there was some issues with 5 regard to having some standing availability within the 6 facility itself. What that means is, we need to be able to 7 literally go in, flick a switch, turn on all of our phones, 8 everything's up and running. We basically can do that now, 9 with the exception of some minor modifications that need to 10 occur. Some of that has to do with data versus voice, being 11 able to get information over our data system so that we can 12 sit there and log on, get into our -- all of our systems 13 with regard to weather, with regard to emergency calls 14 systems, with regard to FEMA and state reporting and those 15 type things. 16 This $2,000 doesn't sound like a whole lot, 17 but it will do a whole lot with regard to being able to make 18 some minor modifications in there so that in the future, 19 when we roll into that facility, we'll be able to literally 20 walk in with laptops, set them down, plug them in, flip the 21 switches, and everything is up and running. It doesn't 22 take, you know, several hours. Again, it's minor 23 modifications, but it's something that I think would make a 24 difference. I will tell you right now, I'll be the first 25 one to admit that, you know, could we do it again the way we 7-29-03 jcc 35 1 just did it? Yes. Is it as efficient and is it as 2 expedient in getting services provided? No. But, again, I 3 -- I think that, under the circumstances, everybody -- 4 everybody who showed up there did an excellent job. But I 5 do believe that these minor improvements would significantly 6 enhance the operation of that center. 7 And I can specifically walk through each of 8 those items, if you'd like me to. I mean, basically, they 9 have to do with data connections, the ability to walk in -- 10 we have laptops that are assigned. People can walk in, plug 11 them in. What we want to be able to do is have that data 12 network modified so that when you plug them in, you're 13 automatically profiled and you're set up, ready to go. We 14 have some phone in -- phone instruments that, right now, 15 what we're doing is we grab them out of one place and move 16 them somewhere else. We'd like to have some things that are 17 permanently assigned in there with phone instruments and 18 those kinds of things. 19 It was interesting this last -- this last 20 July. The first phone call I remember getting into the 21 center, it wasn't FEMA; it wasn't anybody except the press, 22 Channel 4, Channel 5, everybody calling, you know, with all 23 the P.R. stuff. Luckily, we had somebody who was on top of 24 that and able to handle it, and we basically did it through 25 cell phones, but they were pretty unreliable during that 7-29-03 jcc 36 1 time. So, anyway, those -- those are some of the things 2 that we have to deal with. And, again, just a chance for a 3 little bit quicker response. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ron, in the -- I guess 5 what you're -- the emergency center that you're talking 6 about -- 7 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- has there been 9 consideration on the -- the equipment, and all that's being 10 used so that the County equipment also works in there, and 11 to the same level? Because I know this past year was, in 12 recent times, the first time the city of Kerrville was hit 13 hard with a disaster, but in the last four years in my 14 precinct, we've had two disaster declarations. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I just want to make 17 -- you know, mainly, I guess probably the Sheriff's 18 Department, 'cause I don't know that we -- and the County 19 Judge and his office being able to be integrated, their 20 computers and systems into whatever you all are doing. 21 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just something I think we 23 need to make sure is done. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. As a matter of 25 fact, one of the things we want to take a look at, if we 7-29-03 jcc 37 1 have -- and this is something we would need to discuss with 2 the Sheriff, in particular, 'cause he's going to be -- the 3 first ones that are going to show up are going to be Fire 4 Chief, Police Chief, EMS, and the Sheriff. Those are going 5 to be the first people in there. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 7 MR. PATTERSON: And then the follow-on is 8 going to be -- and, quite frankly -- no offense to the mayor 9 and the judge, but, quite frankly, not having that instant 10 connection is not as critical as it is for these other 11 members. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 13 MR. PATTERSON: And those we can work 14 through. I do believe that if it would be necessary for us 15 to sit down with the Sheriff and talk about -- you know, if 16 they're on Windows NT-based laptops, they've got something 17 that they can walk in with, we can make it work. Our I.T. 18 is willing to do that, and we can make that work. It's a 19 matter of we've got to get it coordinated. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. That is, you 21 know, an important point. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Absolutely, yes, sir. I'm 23 writing notes over here, so sorry. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: Rusty -- or the Sheriff has 25 always been -- every time we've opened it up, either the 7-29-03 jcc 38 1 Sheriff or one of his deputies has been in there for the 2 entire time, so we've had the radio communication and the 3 telephone communication. But, as far as computers, we 4 haven't really had that capability until actually this -- 5 our last flood, we had two computers in there. That's the 6 first time we've had that capability, so we're slowly 7 getting there. 8 MR. DICKERSON: But we -- just this past 9 year, we've connected to the County's computer system 10 through the Sheriff's Office, so he would be able to -- I 11 guess we could patch into that room from the conference 12 room. We have in our conference room a -- a setup in there 13 to look into jail records and such, so that -- and 14 detectives can make photo lineups out of the jail records 15 and stuff like that. 16 MR. PATTERSON: The idea would be to create a 17 system that, when you walk in to E.O.C., doesn't matter what 18 agency you're in; you can get into and look at your files 19 and records. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 MR. PATTERSON: That's where we want to try 22 and get to. 23 MAYOR FINE: Where was E.O.C. during that 24 time? Was that set up at the police station or set up out 25 there? 7-29-03 jcc 39 1 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, we had an E.O.C. command 2 post at the fire scene, and they did most of it. We had the 3 -- the E.O.C. open for a short period of time, but we 4 realized that it was more practical to have that at the 5 scene. 6 MAYOR FINE: Yeah, the conditions in that 7 room at that time wouldn't have been an issue anyway, 'cause 8 it was up at the command center for the most part. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Right. And the one thing to 10 remember is that, in a situation like that, where you've got 11 a -- you know, you've got fire rescue, you've got the forest 12 service, you've got -- 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: SETTRAC. 14 MR. PATTERSON: -- SETTRAC, you've got all 15 those individual agencies that are going to come together 16 and actually press on a particular event like that, versus 17 like this, where you're responding with your own assets; a 18 little bit different. Okay. Are there any further 19 questions on this particular item, on fire contract or 20 emergency management that we need to go over at this point 21 in time? Okay. Well, we will move, then, to the next item. 22 It's going to be under Tab 4 in your notebook. It's going 23 to be Emergency Medical Services, Medical Director, and 24 First Responder program. In this particular item, what we 25 are covering are emergency medical services or EMS, which is 7-29-03 jcc 40 1 the -- the emergency services that are provided with regard 2 to your ambulance services, basically, and all your first 3 responses with regard to the health and welfare of citizens; 4 heart attacks, et cetera, whatever calamity may have 5 befallen them, and they need medical care. 6 If you'll recall -- a little bit of history 7 here -- back in 1994, there was a program set up -- there 8 was a program set up whereby the City and the County were 9 paying $37,500 each per year for emergency services of this 10 type to be provided within the city and the county. And 11 during that process where they were paying for that service, 12 there was also no First Responder program. So, while we had 13 ambulance service, there was no First Responder program. 14 So, in '94, shortly thereafter, the City went into the 15 operation of an EMS service, and at that point in time there 16 was a contract entered into whereby the City would provide 17 services not only within the city corporate limits, but also 18 within the county outside of the corporate limits. That was 19 also set up so that, as much as possible, we have for the 20 most part been able to fund that not with taxpayer dollars, 21 but instead with fee for service, which has been a very 22 wonderful thing, with -- saving both agencies the 37,5 per 23 year. 24 Right now, this program is expanding with 25 regard to the number of runs and services, which we'll show 7-29-03 jcc 41 1 you in just a moment. In addition to that, the other item 2 that is covered in this particular area is the medical 3 director. I would note for you that there should be 4 something highlighted here on that page for you. 5 Originally, we had given you that document that said that we 6 were -- each agency was paying $11,300 for that services. 7 However, that has dropped to $9,040 for each agency, with 8 the City of Ingram at $2,000 -- was at $2,400, now at 9 $1,920. The medical director is a necessary part of any EMS 10 program. You must have an M.D. who oversees the actions of 11 the paramedics and the E.M.T.'s who operate within our EMS 12 program. This individual reviews run reports, et cetera, 13 and makes sure the protocols are followed. Again, this is 14 something that is required by the Texas Department of 15 Health, and is a necessary part of the EMS program. 16 In addition to that, in this particular item 17 there is also the First Responder program. This is the 18 program whereby we have our EMS Coordinator -- y'all all 19 know Kyle Young, and he coordinates this program whereby we 20 have First Responders out in the county who can get on the 21 scene first, provide that first response and that immediate 22 medical care when needed, and then support it with training, 23 as well as -- with regard -- when I say "training," ongoing 24 training as they need that, follow-up training with E.M.T.'s 25 and paramedics. In addition to that, this last year, the 7-29-03 jcc 42 1 funding was requested whereby Kyle could go and get 2 certified where he can provide that training on-site. He 3 has recently completed that training and will now be able to 4 go through that process and finish that up this fiscal year. 5 Originally, in your packet, we had in here 6 under the First Responders a request to carry over that 7 $6,000. We have now removed that request, which has reduced 8 the request for the given year for this new program. Into 9 the new programs, one of the things you'll see here is I 10 have a breakdown on the EMS and medical director. On the 11 EMS -- on the medical director; I'll do that one first, 12 since it's listed first. As I said, that cost has gone down 13 from $25,000 to $20,000, therefore reducing that down to the 14 $9,040. On the EMS facilities, one of the issues that -- 15 that we have right now, and I would invite anyone to go to 16 central fire station and walk around back. There is a 17 little shed that you buy, like, from Home Depot or something 18 that's sitting back there, and that little shed is Kyle's 19 office. That's where he works out of, and he's got records 20 that are stacked this high. The bottom line is, the 21 facility is inadequate to provide proper management of this 22 particular program. 23 In addition to that, the other issue that we 24 have is -- is that the boxes, as we call them, the 25 ambulances, at this point in time we have a number of 7-29-03 jcc 43 1 them -- because of the number we need to provide the service 2 level, we have a number of them that are sitting outside and 3 being stored outside. That's not a good thing for a 4 $110,000 investment, plus another $40,000 to $50,000 5 investment in equipment on board that, which includes drugs, 6 you know, your cardiac units, et cetera. The recommendation 7 that's being made here -- and, again, this is both for the 8 City and County to consider -- is to take a look at and 9 consider going into a sublease at the 9-1-1 building. 10 There's been some discussion with them. It's been off-line 11 discussion, nothing real formal yet, except that the 12 director and I have had some conversations about what might 13 be available. I don't know if you've ever been in that 14 building, but in the front part of the building, 9-1-1 has 15 some office space. They have an area that you can walk into 16 for a reception area, but in the back of the building, 17 there's two large bays. Behind those bays is a large 18 air-conditioned storage area where equipment can be stored. 19 There's also office space for the EMS -- what I would 20 recommend is the EMS Coordinator, that would be Kyle, to 21 move into that location. 22 In addition to that, currently right now our 23 EMS billing coordinator is in City Hall. So, we have our -- 24 our overall program coordinator down behind central. We 25 have our billing person here at City Hall. Then we've got 7-29-03 jcc 44 1 our ambulances scattered out. Just doesn't make for good 2 management of a good program. So, the recommendation I 3 would request for y'all to consider would be to take a look 4 at possibly entering into a lease with 9-1-1 district to 5 sublease a piece of the building there. What this will 6 allow us to do is get all of that operation consolidated. 7 It will also allow us to properly store very expensive 8 equipment that serves our citizens. Right now, the -- what 9 has been discussed with them is there's about 1,966 square 10 feet of space that would be leased at this point in time. 11 That includes -- in the lease amount, that 1,966 does not 12 include the common areas, doesn't include the restrooms, the 13 little foyer area, the reception area, break room, that kind 14 of stuff. The 1,966 is net of all of that. 15 MR. BROWN: Does it include the bays for the 16 trucks? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Yes sir, it would include the 18 bays for the ambulances, as well as the storage area and the 19 office space. Right now, we have been discussing a rate of 20 $11,604 per year for that particular lease. That is not, 21 you know, set in stone at this point in time, but something 22 that has been discussed. In order to make the move and move 23 into the space -- obviously, when you have leased space, you 24 have to finish it out. We've estimated a cost of about 25 $9,000 to go in and finish out that space. That includes 7-29-03 jcc 45 1 everything from painting to putting in appropriate phone 2 lines, data lines, et cetera. Most of the lines are already 3 there. It's a matter of taking and migrating them off of 4 their system onto our system so we can keep them separate. 5 One of the things that they have to worry about is security 6 of their data. What we have to worry about is security of 7 all of our equipment and drugs, et cetera, that kind of 8 stuff. We don't feel that that would be a problem. We do 9 feel that the two agencies match up very well with each 10 other, and would make a -- a viable option. 11 With that said, what you see here is an 12 amount of $10,302. That would be the total lease amount, as 13 well as the startup costs you see over to the right here. 14 We have the lease of 1,966, lease being $11,604, the 15 one-time startup costs being $9,000, for a total of $20,604 16 or $10,302. That's how those numbers were arrived at. 17 Beyond the startup costs, after that it would be an ongoing 18 cost of about $12,000 a year -- as you can see, the $11,600; 19 that would be the continuation of the lease. Again, I feel 20 that this -- this is something that we -- we need to do to 21 be able to, again, better manage this program. 22 The medical director, I've already gone over 23 that. Again, you can see the breakdown here on the EMS 24 services. I will say that this would be -- this is a 25 change. This would be the first time that we have provided 7-29-03 jcc 46 1 funding into the EMS program outside of what the fees are 2 generating. I can tell you that it runs on a very narrow 3 margin with regard to our costs versus the revenues. One 4 thing that you might find very interesting, obviously, with 5 our population makeup, we have a tremendous number that are 6 on Medicare, and Medicare is only going to pay you what 7 Medicare is going to pay you. Doesn't matter what that run 8 costs you. So -- and we have a tremendous amount of 9 write-off with regard to the provision of those services. 10 Other than that, I will be quiet for a moment and answer any 11 questions that we might have, and then I'll go into the 12 First Responder in a little bit more detail. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I had a quick 14 question. What are we charging now per mile for ambulance 15 service? $2 and something? 16 MR. YOUNG: The new rate schedule, I believe, 17 is $8.35 a loaded mile; that's when we're actually carrying 18 the patient. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $8? 20 MR. YOUNG: And that's actually lower than a 21 lot of agencies are charging now. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 23 MR. PATTERSON: You may recall that this last 24 year, we did increase our rates by 10 percent. In addition 25 to the rate increase, we also realigned our rates, so we 7-29-03 jcc 47 1 took certain things and matched them up with what Medicare 2 is paying so that we could see more revenue from Medicare 3 based on that, you know. But, again, I will just tell you, 4 the write-offs are a big, big number. It's about -- do you 5 remember what the number is off the top of your head? 6 MR. YOUNG: $350,000. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. 8 MAYOR FINE: What is the person charged if 9 you go out there and treat them, but don't bring them back 10 in? 11 MR. YOUNG: Usually, if we just go out to a 12 car wreck, we have no charge, but if we go out and do a lift 13 assist or anything like that, we've initiated a response 14 fee, and that's $75 or $50. 15 MR. BROOKS: $55. 16 MR. YOUNG: $55. 17 MAYOR FINE: Anywhere in the county, it would 18 just be $55? 19 MR. YOUNG: Right, unless we got more 20 involved. If we do a lot of diagnostic stuff, then we will 21 -- we can charge an aid-only fee, which is $75. 22 MAYOR FINE: What about if you transport? 23 MR. YOUNG: If we transport them, we charge 24 the cost -- the basic fee plus the mileage fee. 25 MAYOR FINE: But that's a car wreck and just 7-29-03 jcc 48 1 minor injuries, no one pays? 2 MR. YOUNG: Right. 3 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. 4 MAYOR FINE: Do those happen often? 5 MR. YOUNG: Yes, quite regularly. Very 6 often. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ron, just so I understand 8 the numbers -- 9 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the City part, EMS 11 Services, $1,790,000? 12 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that a -- that's the 14 fees generated? Where does that money come from? Is that 15 from the City? I mean, -- 16 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, the bottom line is the 17 $1.7 million is our expense item for what it costs to 18 operate the EMS program overall, okay? What -- how those 19 fees -- I mean, how those -- how these expenses are paid for 20 is out of the fees that are generated. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there revenue in 23 excess of expense? 24 MR. PATTERSON: No, sir. No. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, basically, you're 7-29-03 jcc 49 1 saying there's revenue -- the revenue matches that expense? 2 MR. PATTERSON: It matches or is less than. 3 As a matter of fact, the reason that -- as a matter of fact, 4 what we're doing right now is, the reason that we did the 5 rate increase last year was to try and play catch-up so that 6 we're not less than. We actually ran -- we didn't end the 7 year in the red, but we were very close to it, had we not 8 done the rate increase. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, in 10 future reviews, I think it would be helpful to see the 11 revenue side and the -- you know, in that column. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you can see what 14 the -- how the program is running county-wide. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. Yeah, that -- that is 16 -- that data is in the notebook, but I'll be glad to put it 17 in the Power Point, too. Can you -- have you got that? As 18 a matter of fact, I've got it right here. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My other question is -- 20 I'm not sure this is the right time. When do we talk about 21 dispatch? Is now the right time? And Kyle's aware; I think 22 Chuck may be, too. It seems to me, in the responses to the 23 eastern part of the county, which, to me, should be -- there 24 are too many problems. Kyle and I have talked about it, you 25 know. But, I mean, I think that I want to bring it up to 7-29-03 jcc 50 1 the standpoint that I get hammered on a very regular basis 2 about these slow response times from EMS into, you know, the 3 eastern quarter of the county, which is all my precinct. 4 And, there -- there are lots of times and there's been some 5 mistakes, there have been some exaggerations, to me. Not to 6 really cover all the details, but, you know, I think 7 something needs to be done to improve that if possible. 8 And, long-term, is there a possibility of putting an EMS 9 unit in the Center Point area? Which would help the 10 eastern -- the response time. That would come back into the 11 eastern part of Kerrville also, but it would be a much more 12 central location, 'cause there is nothing over there right 13 now. The other option -- and I'm -- and Kyle's aware I'm 14 trying to talk with Kendall County, get some sort of 15 interlocal agreement, but I can't even get a meeting 16 scheduled. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. With regard to Kendall 18 County, there was a point in time that we actually had an 19 agreement where they would make those runs up to a certain 20 point; you know, they would come in so far. And I don't 21 know if you're aware, they have made the decision they're 22 not crossing the line any more. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, they are willing, I 24 believe, now to enter a new agreement where they will 25 respond, but they don't want to transport. Which, I mean, I 7-29-03 jcc 51 1 don't understand that. But it seems to me that if you get 2 this -- that's -- the one that doesn't transport is the one 3 that makes the money. Anyway, we're working on this side of 4 it, and Kyle's aware, trying to set up a meeting. We'll try 5 to set up another one with their coordinator to try to 6 handle this problem. But it's just something I just want to 7 get to the table, that there is a problem on response times 8 in the eastern part of the county that we need to figure out 9 a way to solve. 10 MR. PATTERSON: Do you have -- I mean, if you 11 got some specifics, that would help me too, as far as 12 helping to address those. We can talk about those off-line. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Kyle -- I mean, 14 usually when I get them, I call Kyle; he looks into them and 15 gets back to me. And it's the response times; that's the 16 only issue. I hear nothing but praise about the service 17 when they get there. 18 MR. PATTERSON: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not on the technical 20 side. It's the time to get there. 21 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And hopefully the 911 23 system, when it's finalized, would assist a lot and make it 24 easier to deal with those areas, to find the locations. 25 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. 7-29-03 jcc 52 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's part of the 2 problem. 3 MR. PATTERSON: I will say thank y'all for 4 what you're doing on the 911 system, because I'm telling 5 you, that's going to make a big difference. I think, with 6 regard to -- with the new management and what they're 7 looking at and the progress that they're making, you know, 8 with y'all's help as well, I think that is -- like you said, 9 that's going to make a huge difference with regard to 10 responses everywhere. Not just in that area, but 11 everywhere. 12 MAYOR FINE: Is the First Responder program 13 strong in that area? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, comes out of the 15 Comfort Fire Department. They're a very strong fire 16 department, and they get there, you know, instantly almost. 17 Just a matter -- it's getting the -- 18 MAYOR FINE: Getting the box there. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Getting the box there. 20 And they're sending -- you know, I think they're right 21 across the county line, the one out of Kendall County, but 22 they're just sitting there. 23 MR. PATTERSON: Well, we know of a situation 24 where Kendall actually responded, showed up on the scene, 25 and just stood there. 7-29-03 jcc 53 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 2 MR. PATTERSON: Wouldn't provide any service. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause they figured it 4 wasn't life-threatening. They just didn't -- and I've -- 5 you know -- 6 MR. PATTERSON: Where do they come from? 7 MR. YOUNG: First Responders use the actual 8 equipment off their ambulances to stabilize a patient. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, anyway, it's a 10 difficult situation. Part of it's -- you know, but if we 11 work something out with Kendall County, that certainly 12 helps, but if we can't, it's Kerr County's responsibility. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's -- you know, 15 we need to figure out how to make it work better. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner, are you 17 going to save your -- the other part of your question for 18 happy hour? Or -- dispatchers? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I -- I think I 20 addressed it. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You've already done 22 that? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just went over it 24 quickly. I mean, I didn't -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not how he 7-29-03 jcc 54 1 handles me with that issue. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think part of the 3 problem has been in the dispatch of the EMS, and I think -- 4 you know, and -- you know, I just think they need to -- and 5 I get this from people that call in. They get referred to 6 -- "Oh, you have a 995 number; you need to call Kendall 7 County." Or, "Oh, you need to..." you know, "We don't know 8 where that is," or, you know, it seems like a lack of 9 familiarity with the eastern part of the county in the 10 dispatch. And I think Kyle's told me that there's been some 11 turnover, things of that nature. But, to me, it's not a 12 good answer. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. Well, there was a lot 14 of turnover for a period of time. And I'll also tell you, 15 you're right, it's not a good answer. However, what we have 16 done here recently is, we have made some changes within the 17 department itself. The dispatch function used to be 18 supervised by a police officer or sergeant or -- it varied 19 at different times. At this point in time, that has been 20 changed where we now have a civilian supervisor over 21 dispatch. Okay. So now that particular individual then 22 meets with both fire, EMS, and the Police Chief in order to 23 make sure that we get the dispatch services straightened 24 out. Is it where we want it yet? No. I'll be the first 25 one to say it, but we have made that change and we brought 7-29-03 jcc 55 1 that person on during this fiscal year, and we're still 2 making -- going through some changes with regard to that. 3 The other thing that we're also doing is, we're also looking 4 at making some changes with regard to the salary schedule 5 within that area so that we can obtain and retain quality 6 people. That was an issue. 7 The third item I will say to you is that part 8 of the issue is the technology that we're using. I relate 9 the technology we have today to about a Tandy 1000 computer, 10 if you remember those things, the big floppy disks. But if 11 we can make this grant come together that we're working on 12 right now, it's actually a three-prong grant that we're 13 working on. If all of that comes together in this next 14 fiscal year, what we hope to be able to do is actually 15 replace all of that equipment. We will go from hundreds of 16 keystrokes to touch screens, so that we can quickly respond. 17 We also want to be able to tie data in and capture data on 18 particular calls. You know, if someone has a repeat call, 19 you know, do they have a heart problem? That kind of stuff. 20 And even tie it into, as I was describing earlier, being 21 able to better plan with regard to our jails and know where 22 those calls are, so we can say, "Well, there's a 23 concentration here, and our average response time is X." 24 Same thing in a different area. The tools are not there 25 yet, but we're moving in that direction. So -- but, again 7-29-03 jcc 56 1 it's something we do need to address. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, 3 long-term, I really think getting an ambulance further out 4 in the eastern part of the county. And I presume most 5 people here know there's a retirement community out in the 6 far eastern edge of the county in my precinct, Hermann Sons. 7 There's about 40 people, or 40 -- you know, and there's 8 probably -- you know, I wouldn't be surprised if half the 9 calls that go to the far eastern part of the county go out 10 there, and it's -- you can't get there in 25 minutes, 11 hardly. I mean, it's just a long ways. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, it is. Yeah. As a 13 matter of fact, we took a look -- I ran some rough numbers 14 with regard to putting a remote facility somewhere. And, 15 you know, obviously, you've got -- if you're going to do a 16 24/7 coverage, you got six people, six -- six FTE's that you 17 have to consider, at least one box, and probably two, you 18 know, with regard to a backup and rotation. Maybe not; I 19 don't know if we have to look at that. And, again, that's 20 110 to 150, depending on, you know, the equipment, that kind 21 of stuff, and then housing for that particular facility. 22 So, is it something that can be done? I'm just throwing out 23 that, you know, there's some fairly large numbers tied to 24 it, but it's something that can be looked at. Yes, sir? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Patterson, you indicated 7-29-03 jcc 57 1 that the -- the operation of the EMS is at a deficit now. 2 Specifically referring to your $1,790,000 up there, I -- I 3 don't find that particular figure in the information which 4 you furnished to us, but maybe my familiarity with 5 government accounting is not what it needs to be. But what 6 I am seeing is that you show on the information furnished 7 that you got total revenues of $1,773,000 and change, and 8 projected expenditures for '02-'03 of $1,710,000 and change, 9 almost $1,711,000. That appears to be -- 10 MR. PATTERSON: Well, first of all, it's not 11 running at a deficit right now. Last year we were running 12 red, and we made our adjustments. We barely -- we got into 13 the even. You'll see that what we're projecting for this 14 current year, for '04, we got a $68,000 fund balance total 15 out of a $1.8 million budget. We typically try and have a 16 5 percent fund balance at any given time with regard to -- 17 in all of our funds. Not to say we always achieve it, but 18 we always try and have at least 5 percent there. I don't 19 remember, is that 68 -- does that hit our 5 percent? 20 Doesn't, does it? 21 MS. SEKULA: No, sir. $81,000 is 5 percent. 22 MR. PATTERSON: $81,000 would be the 23 5 percent. With regard to the number here -- that you see 24 here, the $1,829,416, that includes -- let me make sure I 25 got that right. Got a million -- we've got the medical 7-29-03 jcc 58 1 director rolled into that. Then we got $1,790,000. We got 2 to transfer out -- what? 3 MR. BROOKS: Well, the $1,825,000, one thing 4 that's not on there is the -- the First Responder, which is 5 $13,000. That's what gets us to the -- yeah, the total. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, I understand. This 7 gets a little bit confusing when you look at the -- the 8 total EMS medical director and First Responder. You have to 9 take and add them all together to come up with the number. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, let me see if I can 11 further confuse the issue, then. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Here, again, it may be some 14 misunderstanding of accounting that -- that I have, or just 15 inability to understand. The expenditure column for this 16 year through the first nine months are $1,115,000. If you 17 annualize that for the remainder, you're going to come up 18 with about 1,487,000, rather than 1,711,000 approximately. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Mm-hmm. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: So, doesn't that give you some 21 more -- I mean, things are looking a whole lot brighter, 22 aren't they? 23 MR. PATTERSON: What we're trying to do here 24 is -- is that -- you can't just do a straight-line 25 extrapolation on this, first of all, simply because it is 7-29-03 jcc 59 1 somewhat -- believe it or not, this sounds cruel as all 2 get-out, but summer, we usually have more injuries, you 3 know, that kind of stuff. The other thing we also have is, 4 we also have higher numbers of elderly who are getting 5 services that they're not paying for. I know it sounds 6 crazy, but when you look at it across time, the bottom line 7 is -- is that we feel confident that we're probably going to 8 be more at the 1.71 than we would at 1.7 -- I think you said 9 there was 1.78? Sorry, I may have misunderstood. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: No, it's 1,487,000. It's -- 11 if you annualize the $1,115,000, the figure I come up with 12 -- you may come up with something different, but I come up 13 with annualizing that to the $1,487,000 figure. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. The -- one thing on 15 the expenditure side that has not happened yet for this 16 fiscal year is purchase of a $130,000 ambulance. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Things still look a little 18 brighter, don't they? 19 MR. PATTERSON: Not to me, sir. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, they look a whole lot 21 brighter than $1,790,000. The -- the figure of $184,680 22 there at the bottom of the page, what does that figure 23 represent? 24 MR. PATTERSON: Those transfers out are for 25 the purchase of equipment, correct? 7-29-03 jcc 60 1 MS. SEKULA: Purchase of equipment, and also 2 the reimbursement of the General Fund for two dispatchers 3 and the EMS billing clerk. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. It's for replacement 5 equipment. We have a replacement fund. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 MR. PATTERSON: In other words, we set aside 8 a certain amount of money to replace equipment. That's what 9 part of that is for. We also pay two of the dispatchers out 10 of -- I think we have $10,000 -- yeah. Two of the 11 dispatchers, part of theirs is reimbursed out of that, and 12 then also the EMS billing coordinator. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: So, that would include the -- 14 the new equipment that you just mentioned, a hundred and 15 whatever thousand dollars it was. 16 MR. PATTERSON: 130. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, that's taken into 18 account? 19 MR. PATTERSON: That's already taken into 20 account, right. 21 (Discussion off the record.) 22 MR. PATTERSON: Do what? 23 MR. HOLLOWAY: That doesn't include the 24 ambulance. 25 MR. PATTERSON: Right. 7-29-03 jcc 61 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, that -- that's true. 3 The biggest problem -- the biggest issue you have here, as 4 he said, is your bad debt expenses. You can go ahead and 5 speak up so I don't have to keep repeating. But your bad 6 debt expenses don't get capitalized till the end of the 7 year, and that's always a bite as well. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, that probably 9 is -- is related to the -- to the government accounting 10 procedure that -- 11 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, our GAP procedures. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a hard enough time 13 following the regular accounting procedure, and this makes 14 it that much tougher. 15 MR. PATTERSON: I understand. If you can do 16 straight amortization and depreciation, and also, you know, 17 setting aside all your bad debt up front, that would be 18 nice, but GAP won't allow you to do that. Hope I'm 19 answering the question and not muddying it. Any other 20 questions on that? I will go to the First Responder. On 21 the First Responder program, again, we -- we had originally 22 thought that there was a need for an additional $6,000 for 23 the training program, which, again, we know is going to be 24 set up and be able to do that in FY '03. That necessitated 25 us reducing the total amount on the First Responder program. 7-29-03 jcc 62 1 What you'll see here in that is -- let's see if I can get 2 over there real quick. The First Responder, we have a 3 portion of the salary for the EMS Coordinator is paid for to 4 handle the response -- First Responder program. That is a 5 quarter of the salary and the benefits there at $10,831. 6 Then you also have equipment. Again, there used to be 7 another line item in there for another $6,000 that's been 8 removed, but the equipment at $2,500 for replacement for 9 First Responders, and then that brings you to a subtotal of 10 $13,331 on that particular program. The remainder of the 11 salary that is picked up for the -- for the rest of it -- 12 not the quarter, but the other three-quarters, is rolled 13 into and is included in the EMS budget that you were just 14 looking at, so that -- that's rolled into those numbers. 15 That's a pretty straightforward one. There's -- other than 16 the equipment and the coordinator salary participation, 17 there's no request for anything else in this particular 18 fiscal year. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a question, 20 please. 21 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kyle? 23 MR. YOUNG: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm assuming that you 25 wrote this paragraph here, or two paragraphs here, so I'm 7-29-03 jcc 63 1 going to address you. And I want you to understand up 2 front, I'm not throwing rocks at you. I just simply don't 3 understand some things here, and I'd appreciate it -- 4 MR. YOUNG: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- if you'll explain 6 it to me. First of all, I can't find -- I can't find an 7 agreement anywhere that we have. I understand the agreement 8 in my mind, but we probably need to have -- and probably do 9 have a document saying that the County provides one-quarter 10 of the salary, but I can't get my hands on it. May be 11 privileged information, but -- at the courthouse that Buster 12 doesn't get, but nevertheless, I can't find it. And then 13 the next sentence here disturbs me a little bit, and I'm 14 going to read it. "Additionally, staff has reviewed the 15 equipment needs of the First Responders for this year, and 16 recommends enhancing the county First Responder program by 17 initiating a training program." To my knowledge, we have 18 been paying for a training program for a number of years. 19 So, you're suddenly -- now we're initiating a training 20 program that, in my mind, we have been doing all these 21 years. And the next sentence says that these enhancements 22 would be in addition to the current funding. I'm even kind 23 of at a loss for words here. You know, even your 24 predecessor we paid to train our First Responders -- county 25 First Responders, and I understand you have a big class 7-29-03 jcc 64 1 coming up real soon. 2 MR. YOUNG: Mm-hmm. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But it appears the 4 language here says that we're -- now we're going to start 5 one. 6 MR. YOUNG: We've had a continuing education 7 program. That was to help upkeep the required hours by 8 T.D.H. that they get between their certification periods. I 9 think the wording in here was just a little confusing, like 10 you say, but the initial training program will be that 11 E.M.T. class that starts August 12th. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That we're actually 13 funding out of the budget that we're presently in? 14 MR. YOUNG: Right. Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then you go along 16 and say that this -- this enhancement requires more funding. 17 MR. PATTERSON: One thing, I want to take -- 18 I'm going to take the hickey on this. Whenever we -- we 19 changed that language, if you look under new programs, 20 you'll see there's just that little blurb there. We changed 21 it from what it was before. That's highlighted for you. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where is -- 23 MR. PATTERSON: Because he now has the 24 certification to be able to do the training. We should have 25 removed that language in the description as well, and we 7-29-03 jcc 65 1 didn't. That's my failure. Whenever I was reviewing it, we 2 made that change. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I think he's talking about 4 this one right here. Are you talking about the summary 5 sheet? 6 MAYOR FINE: That sheet right there. 7 MR. PATTERSON: On -- 8 MR. HOWARD: One page over. 9 MR. PATTERSON: On this particular -- see 10 this sheet here, sir? It's got the title and everything. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, kind of. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Is that what you were reading 13 from? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh -- oh, I was 15 working off of this sheet here. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. Yeah. What I was 17 going to say is that you'll see that under new programs, 18 First Responders -- it's the next page. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 20 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. We went in there and 21 modified that. You'll see where it's highlighted, because 22 the program -- he's got the certification. He's going to be 23 able to do that in-house now, instead of bringing people in. 24 The program -- the new program isn't that we're doing 25 training here, it's that he's doing the training now. And 7-29-03 jcc 66 1 in terms of getting certified, in-house, getting to do it 2 here. And, originally, we weren't sure he was going to have 3 the certification done, so we were asking that it be 4 reprogrammed for next year. The bottom line is -- is that 5 he's got the certification. He's going to be able to do 6 that in-house now. And that's where the -- that sentence 7 that you talked about starting the new program, it should 8 have been removed. 9 MAYOR FINE: That's where -- the $6,000 10 savings you were talking about earlier? 11 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. That's 12 correct. And that's my failure to catch that in that 13 section. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not angry. I 15 just -- 16 MR. PATTERSON: No. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- needed an 18 explanation. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. It's -- yeah. 20 Well, I just didn't -- I didn't want to hang him out to dry, 21 'cause I was the one editing, and I didn't catch it. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I think that's 23 about all I have on that right now. Thank you. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Yes? 25 MAYOR FINE: It's 5:30, suppertime. 7-29-03 jcc 67 1 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. 2 MAYOR FINE: The food is ready. 3 MR. PATTERSON: All right. 4 MAYOR FINE: I was given a speech to read; 5 it's been modified, though. This meeting will take a recess 6 at this time. We will reconvene at -- take 45 minutes, to 7 6:15. There were no reservations for dinner. There is 8 plenty of food for anyone else who wishes to eat. If 9 we'll -- the food is ready in the room next door, so we'll 10 be reconvening at 6:15. If you'd like, we're going to have 11 a blessing at this time. If everyone would please stand, if 12 you wish, Dane's going to bless the food before we go into 13 the other room. 14 (Prayer.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Court will stand in recess for 16 45 minutes. 17 (Recess taken from 5:32 p.m. to 6:15 p.m.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's call back to 20 order the workshop meeting, joint City/County workshop 21 meeting with the City of Kerrville. It's 6:15. I'm back in 22 business, gentlemen. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 MAYOR FINE: All right, we're all here. 25 Let's go ahead and reconvene the meeting, then. It's 6:15. 7-29-03 jcc 68 1 Do you need to -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We're already there. 3 MAYOR FINE: You're already there, okay. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. Just F.Y.I., the 5 Judge and I had an opportunity to talk, and I think we've 6 got an understanding of where the numbers came from. So, I 7 apologize for my lack of -- inability to explain that. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I appreciate it. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: A lot of things I 11 can't explain. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Thank you for taking the 13 time. All right. Next item is prisoner support. It is Tab 14 5 in your notebook, and it's the fifth item across, 15 obviously, on your spreadsheet. In this particular item, 16 this is an item where the County manages this program. 17 They -- they own and operate the County Jail. And under 18 that, what we do with our agreement is that we take all of 19 our prisoners for arrest, whether they be misdemeanors or -- 20 the range, just whatever they're arrested for, we take them 21 over there and they house them for us. Right now, we have a 22 -- a process set up that what we do is we pay a rate of $37 23 per day, per prisoner for that service. Excuse me. Right 24 now, the City is anticipating that we'll have a prisoner 25 volume up from 936 in FY '03 up to -- excuse me, that should 7-29-03 jcc 69 1 be up to 936 from FY '03 -- I'm going to get this out. I 2 can't talk tonight; I apologize -- 972 up from 936, I 3 apologize, from the previous fiscal year estimate, which 4 would basically yield a $36,000 expense for that. The 5 County's proposed budget is at $1.8 million for the 6 operation of the facility. Again, that is an estimate 7 number. Now, I should have stated this to begin with. All 8 of these numbers that we've obtained from this -- either 9 from City staff or County or whatever, all these are, right 10 now, estimates and draft proposals, 'cause they're all 11 subject to approval by, obviously, you. Again, this is 12 pretty straightforward. And I'll answer any questions that 13 you might have about it. I -- did you have anything, Chuck? 14 MR. DICKERSON: Nope. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One question, Ron, 16 that you or maybe one of the other Commissioners can answer. 17 Is the $37 per day -- prisoner day, is that -- is that the 18 actual cost, or is this a rate we charge out-of-county 19 prisoners? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pretty much actual. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's actual, and I 22 think it's the same as out-of-county as well. My question 23 is -- and it's something I never have been able to get my 24 mind wrapped around. When you -- when you bring a prisoner 25 to the County Jail and you take the handcuffs off of him and 7-29-03 jcc 70 1 turn him over to County employees, he is then County 2 property. Maybe that's a bad choice of words, but if -- the 3 cost -- then we start paying for him; is that correct, or is 4 that incorrect? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 6 MR. DICKERSON: That's sort of correct. 7 Depends on -- 8 MR. PATTERSON: It actually depends on the 9 point that they become magistrated. 10 MR. DICKERSON: Right. 11 MR. PATTERSON: If -- let's say somebody's 12 brought to the facility, and let's say they're brought there 13 at 1 o'clock at night, and the magistrate doesn't show up 14 until in the morning. Okay. At the point in time they 15 become magistrated, from that point forward, he is the 16 County's responsibility. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So there's two days 18 there that you pay? 19 MR. PATTERSON: Well, it could be 12 hours, 20 it could be one day, it could be two days. Depends on how 21 long it takes to get them magistrated. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you brought him in 23 at 11 o'clock at night, there's one day. 24 MR. DICKERSON: Depends what he's arrested 25 for. DWI, you pay for him the first minute, 'cause you're 7-29-03 jcc 71 1 going to get all the fine money or whatever. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Because of the court 3 he goes to -- the county court he goes to? 4 MR. DICKERSON: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, if it's a 6 criminal offense as opposed to a misdemeanor. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, 'cause those will not 8 go through the municipal court for fines. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the 972 prisoner 10 days, that's made up of those that go through municipal 11 court and those that are waiting to be magistrated? 12 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. I'm speaking 13 for the Chief. That's his -- 14 MR. DICKERSON: Yeah, prior to being 15 magistrated and Class C city violations. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okey-dokey. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Okay? Any other questions? 18 Okay. The next item is going to be under Tab 6, which is 19 the 216th Judicial Narcotics Task Force. You may or may not 20 recall that this past legislative session, there was an 21 initiative to kill the task forces across the state. That 22 legislative process or initiative failed, and they do still 23 exist. I will tell you that the legislator who was the head 24 of that, or ramroding that particular legislation, basically 25 had a falling out many years prior to with a particular 7-29-03 jcc 72 1 Sheriff, and was still carrying the chip, and he was going 2 to try and get them killed, and almost succeeded. But I 3 will tell you that that -- that particular item has since 4 died off, and basically died in committee. The -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ron? 6 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Actually, the guy was 8 the Sheriff. He was the Sheriff of Travis County. 9 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. That's 10 correct, he had a problem with -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's right. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. Well, it was an 13 interesting situation, but, thankfully, that has gone away. 14 I can tell you also that this past year, we had some issues 15 with regard to some of the documentation that the governor's 16 office was wanting with regard to guarantees. We, as the 17 sponsor agency of the City, were being required to put some 18 information in the agreement -- or I should say the 19 resolutions authorizing participation in this, that 20 basically said that if any other participating agency failed 21 to pay, that we would be liable for it as the city entity. 22 At that point in time, we refused to sign it; said we don't 23 agree with that. Made a -- it took, I guess -- what, Ilse? 24 Two months? 25 MS. BAILEY: At least two or three months. 7-29-03 jcc 73 1 MR. PATTERSON: At least two or three months 2 worth of going back and forth. We finally came up with some 3 compromised language that works, that basically refers them 4 back to the agreement. So, anyway -- and the agreement has 5 all of the other agencies signing agreements to pay. So, 6 anyway, their guarantees are what we're relying on. That 7 said, what you have here is you see -- you'll see here that 8 we have the State proposed grant funding at $442,284 (sic), 9 the County match at $43,698, the City match at $42,772, and 10 other agencies at $81,376. The other agencies include 11 various counties and cities. I'll tell you who they are 12 very quickly: City of Kerrville, City of Ingram, Kerr 13 County, City of Fredericksburg, Gillespie County, City of 14 Boerne, Kendall County, Bandera County are all the agencies 15 that are participating in this. 16 You can also see over here on the side of the 17 backup data, the drugs seized, we have a street value of 18 over $440,000 last year. And then the current year thus 19 far, over $294,000, 224 cases, and 176 arrests. The funding 20 is down from last year. Obviously, with the -- the problems 21 that the State went through this year with funding, this is 22 one of the areas that they did cut. It's down; you can see 23 it was $642,715. And then we have a total match from all 24 agencies added together is $187,511. And this matching 25 money, where does that come from? That is made up from the 7-29-03 jcc 74 1 various agencies putting personnel into that program and 2 paying the salaries and benefits of those personnel through 3 this program. So, these numbers directly reflect the cost 4 of those employees being assigned to the task force. 5 MR. SMITH: Are the drugs and the cases and 6 everything -- is that for Kerr County, or is that for the -- 7 for the whole area? 8 MR. DICKERSON: Total. 9 MR. SMITH: It's total task force area? 10 MR. DICKERSON: Right. 11 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 12 MR. DICKERSON: But the lion's share of it is 13 Kerrville/Kerr County. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Any other questions? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, the State funding 16 is down? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that means that we 19 bump up. Now, what kind of increase are you talking about, 20 the City? 21 MR. PATTERSON: Actually, the -- the County 22 will have a reduction of about $1,264. The City would 23 actually reduce by about $3,200. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 25 MR. PATTERSON: It's based on a matching 7-29-03 jcc 75 1 formula. It's a percentage. As well as the -- 'cause 2 you've got program income, so what's happening is -- is that 3 we're hoping we get more program income off of it to be able 4 to generate additional revenue there. But -- 5 MR. DICKERSON: Basically, what's happened is 6 the feds gave less money, State's going to give less money. 7 The task force has just cut their budget to the bone. If 8 they hit us again next year with a 20 percent or 13 percent 9 cut, we're going to have to start cutting personnel, 'cause 10 we don't have anything else to cut. We're not buying any 11 vehicles this year. You know, it's just bare bones. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there a different matching 13 formula or percentage for county governments versus city 14 governments? 15 MR. PATTERSON: I'm going to let Chuck answer 16 that. He's -- 17 MR. DICKERSON: Pretty much what -- the 18 reasoning -- the county match is usually higher than city 19 match, because you have more -- you've got the Assistant 20 D.A., which is a higher salaried person, plus your two -- 21 two officers over there, investigators. City has two 22 officers and a -- the secretary over there. So, the 23 reasoning behind your being, you know, about a thousand more 24 than us is because you've got more expensive personnel over 25 there, I guess, or benefits. 7-29-03 jcc 76 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, maybe you answered my 2 question, but maybe I just didn't catch it. The reason for 3 my question is the -- the -- the amount of participation is 4 pretty close to equal both years, but on the reduction for 5 this particular year, it's about two and a half times -- the 6 City received about two and a half times the reduction that 7 the County did, and that's what's kind of confusing to me. 8 MR. DICKERSON: Okay. The confusion is the 9 County's got the same Assistant D.A. and the same two 10 officers on there. The City doesn't have that. We -- we 11 took two officers that were married with -- with family 12 dependents, and we replaced them with two single guys. So, 13 there's the reduction in -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 15 MR. DICKERSON: -- benefits. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: It's the type and 17 classification of personnel? 18 MR. DICKERSON: Right. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Good. Okay. 20 MR. PATTERSON: As well as all their -- not 21 just salary, but all their benefits. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, I understand it includes 23 all of it, but -- but the type and classification of 24 personnel. 25 MR. DICKERSON: Right. 7-29-03 jcc 77 1 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. Any other 2 questions on that item? Okay. Next item is the Kerr 3 County/Kerrville Louis Schreiner Airport. In this 4 particular item -- excuse me. As you know, the airport 5 currently operates -- it's fifty-fifty owned between the 6 City and the County. After doing a -- a great deal of 7 research over the last several months, I know we've had some 8 conversations with the Judge and with Mr. Williams with 9 regard to some of the research we've done. It's interesting 10 that way back when, when the airport was first evolving, we 11 had issues with regard to -- it was pretty much in the city, 12 and then it was decided -- you know, everybody decided to 13 move out. And then, at that point in time when it moved, 14 there was a joint ownership that occurred. Some of you may 15 know the history even better than I do, but at that point in 16 time, in looking at it -- I don't know what all the 17 rationale was at that time, but at that point in time, half 18 of the land was deeded to the County. 19 During that process, we also saw that we -- 20 there was time periods in there where, you know, the City 21 said, well, you know, it doesn't seem to be, you know, 22 working out so well. So, you know, they said, why don't we 23 go and see if the County wants to take it over? And the 24 County said no, we don't want to take it over, but perhaps 25 instead what we can do is create this airport authority, as 7-29-03 jcc 78 1 it was called. However -- and, as a matter of fact, it -- 2 there was action taken by the Commissioners Court and the 3 Council to create the authority. There was an election 4 held. However, prior to that happening, there was a board 5 that was appointed. And, again, why the timing of all this, 6 I'm not clear on. I'll just tell you that I can show you 7 the date the board was created. Once the board was created, 8 then at that point in time, the authority was never 9 utilized. The -- the authority was -- it had no taxing 10 powers. It -- nobody was ever appointed to it. It just sat 11 there, but the airport board continued on. 12 Shortly thereafter, after the election was 13 done and all of that, in the -- in the '70's, then there was 14 a follow-up to that. There was obviously a question about, 15 well, how much authority does the board have, not have, et 16 cetera? And then the Council and the Commission both passed 17 resolutions -- or I should say, you know, minute orders of 18 the Court, and said no, you know, we never intended it to 19 have all this authority. It's a -- it is an advisory board 20 only. Okay? I mean, that -- and -- well, that's it in a 21 real short nutshell, back and forth. And the reality is -- 22 is that here we are today, and the question comes, and I'll 23 -- what is it? You know, how much authority does the board 24 have? You know, the authority sitting there, does it need 25 to be, you know, disposed of, or can it just sit there? 7-29-03 jcc 79 1 Now, also, in addition to that, the question 2 of, well, if you've got the board and what it can and can't 3 do and the authority that it has, well, we've also run into 4 several issues here in the last several months where we 5 have -- it's nobody's fault, but you've got county 6 government under one body of law and a city under another 7 body of law, and you've got issues like leasing and those 8 type things, where under -- under one organization, with the 9 City, you know, they don't have to bid leases and that kind 10 of stuff, where the County does. Nobody's fault, but the 11 problem is it's got two different bodies of law, and how do 12 you deal with that? 13 Well, after doing some additional research, 14 it appears as though that the authority under which the 15 board was formed used to be called the Texas Municipal 16 Airport Act. It is now rolled into the Texas Transportation 17 Code. And, basically, what that says is -- is that under 18 that authority, that the board can have additional powers. 19 In other words, it can do things like leases; it can enter 20 into them directly, that type of thing. They can establish 21 budgets and adopt budgets and, again, all of those kinds of 22 things. So, there's all of those questions, you know, of 23 what do we want to be when we grow up? And the reality 24 is -- is that where we are today is that, you know, we have 25 a board that really, under those authorities that 7-29-03 jcc 80 1 established them, enabling legislations, really has some 2 additional authority. And so, you know, how do we deal with 3 that? What do we do with it and how do we want -- how do we 4 want them to interact with you and you interact with them, 5 as far as the governing bodies? And so there's a lot of 6 questions with regard to that. 7 You know, there -- there's all kinds of 8 options with it. One of the things that had been discussed 9 was the idea of, well, if -- if that helps resolve -- if 10 this body has the additional powers, if we can help resolve 11 those issues with regard to leasing and management and all 12 that kind of stuff with them, the first question comes, do 13 you feel comfortable with that? Are you okay with it? You 14 know, are you okay investing -- or vesting, I should say, 15 those powers there? If you are, then, you know, we've got 16 the issue of the day-to-day management. You know, we have 17 the Airport Manager and we have the Street Department that 18 puts X's on the runway and takes care of the streets and all 19 that kind of stuff. Well, you know, there's been some 20 discussion about, well, if they have those authorities, then 21 perhaps that board then can then turn around and contract 22 directly, you know, with -- with the City to -- to manage 23 it. Now, again, we've already talked about whether the 24 board does it or the City and the County, but having some 25 sort of interlocal agreement to do that. So, that is an 7-29-03 jcc 81 1 issue that is up for discussion and open. 2 Other than that, I will tell you that we've 3 got, you know, the funding issues here that -- that we 4 wanted to talk about tonight. I went too far, sorry. Part 5 of the -- part of the discussions also revolved around the 6 fact that right now, the way we've been operating in the 7 past several years, it's been that, well, what we'll do is 8 it's basically running itself -- you know, supporting 9 itself, that type thing. However, one of the things in 10 going back and, you know, looking at budgets and analyzing 11 it, well, it became fairly apparent quickly that, you know, 12 the Airport Manager was not in that budget. And, you know, 13 the legal support was not in that budget. The bottom line 14 is -- is the budget that we used to have really didn't 15 reflect what the cost of the operation was, and so part of 16 what the proposal to take a look at was -- is moving those 17 costs -- or at least starting that process; not all of them 18 at this point in time, but to move at least the Airport 19 Manager into that cost. In other words, expense it against 20 the Airport Fund, as it should be. Right now, all of that 21 is funded out of the General Fund. 22 And so, you know, we said, well, I think it 23 makes sense to push all of that into the Airport Fund. 24 We've also made some additional changes in some of our other 25 budgets, where we've got, you know, people in different 7-29-03 jcc 82 1 departments in -- you know, some are paid out of -- half out 2 of one and half out of another. We started pushing them 3 into the departments where they belong. That way all of you 4 have a real picture of what does that operation cost? 5 Otherwise, you get a skewed view of it. With that said, 6 what we have here -- and, again, you can see here revenues 7 on the backup data. T-hangars are at 100 percent. I know I 8 saw some other stuff come through my office. Are we still 9 at 100? 10 MR. PEARCE: We're still at 100 percent right 11 now, and we've got three people on the waiting list for more 12 T-hangars, so we've done real well in the last four months 13 as far as bringing the revenues in. And so -- and I 14 envision we'll maintain 100 percent all year. 15 MR. PATTERSON: The -- I think the way that 16 we're managing the leases now and the ability to get those 17 out the door quickly has been very positive, being able to 18 keep them full. 'Cause for a while there, you know, we 19 weren't. We had some turnover, and contracts weren't 20 getting done timely. And, I mean, bottom line is -- is that 21 we've got a process now, I think, that works very well. 22 Ilse has been very involved with the airport ever since all 23 this discussion came up, and her and David have been working 24 together very well and been able to keep these moving. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ron, before you leave 7-29-03 jcc 83 1 T-hangars, -- 2 MR. PATTERSON: Yes? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- what is ours compared 4 the to the New Braunfels, Fredericksburg kind of market we 5 compete against? What are our rental rates? 6 MR. PEARCE: $250 per month right now. If -- 7 you get a 5 percent discount if you contract for -- or lease 8 for three years. That's competitive. If you take a look at 9 surrounding areas, depending on which type of hangar they're 10 looking at, they run between $240 and $280. If you go into 11 the metroplex, they're running about $360 to $450. But the 12 one thing you have to be a little careful about when you -- 13 you do look at other airports and you do look at what 14 they're leasing, but you also have to take a look at your 15 market. The market right now in Kerrville, what is the 16 market -- what does it draw? And if you take the market at, 17 let's say, Meacham Field -- well, that's the Dallas 18 metroplex; that's not really a fair comparison. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 20 MR. PEARCE: So we look at what our land 21 values are, what our lease rates are, what we can draw, what 22 is a fair market value. And I believe we've hit it right on 23 target, $250. I'm not -- certainly not recommending any 24 increases right now. We're 100 percent leased with three on 25 a waiting list. I think that's pretty good. 7-29-03 jcc 84 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 2 MR. SMITH: You said $200 one time, then 3 $250. What is it? 4 MR. PEARCE: It's $250. 5 MR. SMITH: $250, okay. I misunderstood you. 6 MR. PATTERSON: We -- in addition, why don't 7 you go ahead and walk them through the fuel flowage and the 8 nonaviation-related leases as well? 9 MR. PEARCE: Fuel flowage right now, it's up. 10 We draw -- I believe it's 5 cents -- no, it's 9 cents a 11 gallon for fuel that's sold out there, both 100 low-lead and 12 for Jet-A. That fluctuates, depending on what your -- how 13 much traffic you have and what the sales are. One month you 14 may see a real high spike, and the next month real low. I 15 look at it on an annual basis, and then in snapshots. If we 16 look over the last five years, we run pretty close to 17 $18,000 a year in fuel flowage fees, and that seems to 18 sustain right across-the-board. The interesting thing about 19 that is, 9/11, you'd expect that there would be some impact 20 there, and there certainly was during the month, but when we 21 look at how we're going to close out this year, we're still 22 going to be at $18,000, so we've been able to sustain that 23 through the whole year. I think you'll see a spike on that. 24 Again, that fluctuates. It's like looking at 25 sales tax revenues or something of that nature. You 7-29-03 jcc 85 1 forecast what your best guess is based on the market at that 2 time. But we have a new aircraft, we have more aircraft 3 coming in, we got a new hangar that's going to be built. 4 We're definitely going to see some consumption going up 5 there that's going to put us probably 60,000 to 6 80,000 gallons a year going up. If we continue at that 7 pace, I think we'll see fuel flowage fees going up even 8 more. 9 And then, excuse me, nonaviation-related 10 leases, brilliant move of B.A. Products going in. I wish I 11 could take credit for that, and I can't; that was certainly 12 done before my time. Those folks have leased up some areas. 13 They're looking at what we call the old E.A.A. facility, 14 which is the blue T-hangar down at the end of the airport, 15 right across from Kerrville Aviation. That particular place 16 is leased right now at 100 percent; they're looking at 17 expanding. If we can close that area off -- we got a 18 forecast in the budget line item to do a concrete slab under 19 an overhang and close that off. If we're able to do that, 20 that will be an expanded lease there. B.A. Products is also 21 looking into expanding over the next couple of years. 22 They're busting at the seams, and I think we're going to see 23 quite a bit of an increase in that market too. And that's a 24 good move for the airport, because not only is all your eggs 25 in one basket, where you have everything related to 7-29-03 jcc 86 1 aviation, you also got a little bit of industrial off to the 2 side, and that helps balance the spikes in there. So, we're 3 looking real good across-the-board there. 4 MR. PATTERSON: I want to keep you on the 5 floor here. 6 MR. PEARCE: Okay. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead and walk them 8 through the infrastructure that's going on that's really 9 funded in '02 and '03, and what's going on now and what the 10 proposal is. 11 MR. PEARCE: Currently, we have a project 12 that's on the -- on the table; that was the one that we just 13 received the bids back, and that's a runway overlay, 14 expansion of airport -- or the apron for -- parking apron, 15 relocation of the entrance road, and we were able to have 16 some bid alternates also go in on there. And the bid 17 alternates was slurry seal on the taxiway, the taxiway also 18 being slurry-sealed, which wasn't in the original forecast. 19 But we asked TexDOT to come down here about three weeks ago, 20 and it's a little bit of gamesmanship, but you ask them to 21 put that in as a bid alternate, so the contractor bids on 22 it. If you come in under budget and you're able to absorb 23 that, TexDOT will support it. It's already in the document; 24 you can continue and do that too. We came in 25 across-the-board under budget with all three alternates, so 7-29-03 jcc 87 1 they're going to do everything; take care of some erosion 2 control, do a taxiway, also do all the forecasted projects 3 with its $1.9 million. Case is the engineer that got the 4 bid. The documents are being routed right now for 5 signature. I look at actually seeing the construction start 6 about September time frame, October. It will probably go on 7 for in the neighborhood of about 10 to 11 months, at least, 8 by the time they're totally finished, but it will be an 9 excellent project for us. 10 Sewer project, right now we're on track with 11 the completion of that. One exception was there was an area 12 that goes underneath the taxiway on those -- the short 13 runway; it goes over toward Mooney. When they ran the -- 14 there's a little robot that goes through and takes a look at 15 how the drain is and how it's all sealed together when it's 16 sealed up, and there was a little bit of a dip in this area. 17 The contractor had to break that open and replace that. Not 18 at our expense, but it is -- that's going to be on target 19 right now. 20 MR. PATTERSON: On target money-wise, but 21 it's late. They spent about two months trying to 22 directional bore, and they just kept missing it. And it had 23 a -- supposed to be a gravity feed. It had a bust in it, so 24 made them rip it out and start over, and they ended up using 25 a conventional bore, so now it's right. It did slow them 7-29-03 jcc 88 1 down about two months. 2 MR. PEARCE: We've had a couple of other good 3 things that have happened. I'm sure a lot of you -- you've 4 seen me in your offices over the last couple of months. I'm 5 the kind of a guy who likes to try to chase money and find 6 excess money if I can in the system and squeeze it out. We 7 were able to get a R.A.M.P. -- R.A.M.P. money which was not 8 forecasted at the time. We were able to get that and 9 turnkey it. It has the starting of some of our security 10 fencing, wildlife area. It also has an entrance area that 11 goes into what's the old E.A.A. facility, which is all 12 concrete which has been poured right now, and we were able 13 to also utilize some of that money for herbicide 14 application, which is something that we were paying for in 15 its entirety before, but it's a fifty-fifty split, and so 16 might as well utilize those benefits. That happened -- it 17 was added in at the last minute, but we were able to absorb 18 that with the fund balance. 19 The other thing we were able to do was 20 entitlement, and you'll see in Commissioners Court here in 21 another week and a half, we got another $150,000; we're able 22 to absorb that within the airport fund, with fund balance, 23 and that will bubble in with the already funded security 24 fencing/wildlife area, and we'll be able to bubble those two 25 together, which will give us about $320,000, and we can do 7-29-03 jcc 89 1 our fencing in that area too. With that, I believe, 2 depending on how the bids come out, that we'll be able to 3 complete roughly 85 to 90 percent, maybe even do a little 4 bit better, so we should have the entire airport fenced by 5 next year with that. So, in the last four months, I guess 6 you could say, unforecasted, we were able to pull about 7 $230,000 in that we didn't really plan on, but when you're 8 talking a 90/10 and a 50/50, that's -- I'm pretty pleased 9 with that for right now. Going to continue knocking on 10 doors as we can. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. The sewer -- I 12 mean, the -- above the DSE sewer project, that line goes out 13 to the new business park and then under 27 and that way. 14 How'd it get -- 15 MR. PATTERSON: Are you talking about the new 16 one that DSE's doing? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, that sewer one -- 18 the one that's up there. The $500,000, yes. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Yes. The way that works is, 20 if you're standing on the highway and Mooney's on your left 21 right here -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 MR. PATTERSON: Okay, there's a lift station 24 right there. I don't know if you've ever seen it. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 7-29-03 jcc 90 1 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. The way that it goes 2 is, it goes under the road and down to the business park. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 4 MR. PATTERSON: That's -- that's to serve 5 them; however, there's also an extension that just goes 6 directly out to the east. It goes up and it goes just on 7 the other side of the Mooney buildings and hangs a left, and 8 it goes all the way up along the Mooney buildings. It bores 9 underneath the runway, the -- the alternate runway, the 10 crosswind runway. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Goes underneath there, and 13 then from there it forks out into the rest of the 14 development area. So, that's how it gets up there. The 15 good news is, what that does is -- is that not only does it 16 open up sewer for folks within the airport, but also Mooney 17 is going to be able to tap into that line right there so 18 they won't have as far to run it, so they'll be able to tap 19 into it for their domestic waste almost immediately once 20 it's up and running. Then we have the pretreatment issues 21 we'll have to talk to them about. But that's how it gets 22 there. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it goes over to -- 24 Dugosh and Kerrville Aviation will be on that sewer line? 25 MR. PATTERSON: I don't think Dugosh; it 7-29-03 jcc 91 1 won't go up that -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's already at 3 Kerrville Aviation. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Excuse me, sir? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's already to 6 Kerrville Aviation, I believe. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, it's already laid in 8 there, and that's already up that way. It will serve all 9 that center area, and then you can go -- you can feed to it, 10 gravity -- to what's -- I know I'm kind of off here -- kind 11 of up to the north. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To the north. 13 MR. PATTERSON: All of that can feed to it. 14 But if I remember right, it doesn't reach over to Dugosh. 15 Doesn't go over that direction. That's something we'd like 16 to be able to do in the future. This will get most of the 17 prime developable area in and around the hangar area and the 18 aprons, and as well as the -- what's the word? Not apron -- 19 ramp area; that's the word I'm looking for. Is that -- 20 okay. That's what -- like I said, that is that project 21 there. And, again, that is -- and, again, somebody asked me 22 the other day about this. They said, well, is that $500,000 23 for both projects? It's not. It's about -- this project is 24 $500,000 on the airport, and the other project was a little 25 over $500,000 as well. So, yeah. 7-29-03 jcc 92 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just one more question, 2 on the -- 3 MR. PATTERSON: Yes? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the grants, the 5 $2.4 million -- I guess 1.9, but anyway, that's extending 6 the runway also? I know it's moving the entrance. 7 MR. PEARCE: It is not extending the runway, 8 it's moving the entrance. That is forecasted, although it's 9 not funded yet, this time, for the extension of the runway. 10 But that -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's part of the 12 master plan. 13 MR. PEARCE: -- will come into play -- I'm 14 sorry? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's part of the 16 master plan. 17 MR. PEARCE: Yes, it is. 18 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct, sir. Yeah, 19 that's one of those things we're going to have to look at 20 funding in the future. With regard to -- you've got airport 21 -- you've got the runway extension. This just moves the 22 road to be able to do that, as I said. The other thing that 23 does is, it also helps protect your RPZ, your runway 24 protection zone. It will also buy property off-site. 25 MR. PEARCE: We're in the process right now 7-29-03 jcc 93 1 of procuring property. TexDOT is acting as our agent for 2 that. There's about 30 -- 37 to 40 acres that they're 3 looking at right now. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To the east? 5 MR. PEARCE: Both sides. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Both sides. 7 MR. PATTERSON: That RPZ is real important 8 for in the future. If you're going to look at instrument 9 landing systems, you're going to need that protection area 10 to be able to do that. Okay? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Question. I noted that we 12 were able to -- in your -- in your long-term capital 13 improvement projects, I recall it was just a couple of 14 months ago that we did this year's R.A.M.P., and there were 15 no funds that were required out of that one. Those funds 16 were taken out of operational funds, revenues that we had 17 on-hand? 18 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. We -- well, we 19 were able to do -- this was -- we were able to take those 20 funds that are in the fund balance and be able to put that 21 toward that to be able to do that R.A.M.P. project. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 MR. PATTERSON: R.A.M.P. money is a weird 24 deal. He knows it even better than I, but the timing on 25 them -- they fall at strange times. And also, quite 7-29-03 jcc 94 1 frankly, in the transition between the two staff members, 2 quite frankly, some of it was, we -- at the last minute, 3 when he came on board, he got it back up to speed and 4 started pushing it. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Recently, there was a meeting, 6 and I was under the impression that we reached a consensus 7 that we were going to try and use this as a separate 8 operation, as it were, and fund the expenses out of the 9 revenues derived from that operation. And, as I recall the 10 figures that we got at that time, there were expenses of 11 approximately 122, and income of about 116 or 117, and one 12 of those expenses included in the 122 was the Airport 13 Manager's salary. But I notice that you've got it here as 14 part of a separate funding operation, as opposed to taking 15 it out of the revenues of the -- of the operation out there. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. Actually, what the 17 proposal here is, is that if you look at -- what we gave you 18 was a snapshot of the current year. Because you'll remember 19 that this year, we were each -- we're each putting in -- I 20 think it was 123,5. You recall the chart that showed 123,5 21 for each agency. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That was the capital 23 improvements, I believe, wasn't it? 24 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct, sir. Yes, 25 sir. Well, in looking into next year, we also had this 7-29-03 jcc 95 1 additional entitlement grant, which that was not in those 2 numbers, as well as the additional $30,000 on the R.A.M.P., 3 and the water line. None of that was in those numbers. 4 Now, one of the things we talked about was being able to -- 5 as you just said, can we show the fund to operate in total, 6 without any subsidy to it? And the answer is that, when you 7 run the numbers and you look at the budget in here, that 8 amount is needed in order to get it to balance, even after 9 the revenues that are being projected. Am I correctly 10 stating that? 11 MR. PEARCE: Exactly. And a couple of those 12 are issues -- capital projects. The entitlement grant is a 13 capital project. R.A.M.P. money is a way to leverage and -- 14 and purchase things like herbicide and various other things 15 where the State will pay half-and-half, and repair of 16 asphalt, repair of fencing, gates, those type of functions. 17 The other thing that crops up is this water line that's in 18 there, and the water line actually is to extend from the 19 back of the T-hangars down toward the taxiway. There is no 20 fire hydrant access -- access by the drain hangar or the new 21 T-hangars. Basically, there's no way to get a pumper truck 22 in there. I worked that with the fire marshal; we took a 23 look at all the options and what would be the cheapest cost, 24 whether it's building a road where we can run a pumper 25 truck, or how we can drop a line. Working with Paul 7-29-03 jcc 96 1 Knippel, as far as in-house, we believe we can drop the line 2 in there for $25,000, which is the cheapest route, and get 3 two fire hydrants into that area, which would allow access 4 to the hangars that are already in existence. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: It's not the capital items 6 there. The only one that I have a question about is the -- 7 the manager's salary, which is -- which is strictly an 8 operational thing, and that was one of them that I thought 9 that we'd reached a consensus on that that would be funded 10 out of revenues from the actual operation. 11 MR. PATTERSON: Right. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And in looking at the -- 13 MR. PATTERSON: If you look at the airport 14 fund -- the Fund 47 summary sheet there, sir, if you look at 15 the summary sheet, you'll notice there that it shows total 16 revenues of 411, with total expenditures of 374. That's the 17 very first page after -- after the descriptions. It says 18 Airport Fund Budget Summary, Fund 47. Looks like -- let me 19 make sure. Looks like this. 20 MAYOR FINE: You've gone too far. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Well -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right after this. 23 MAYOR FINE: Should be the next page right 24 there. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I'm with you. 7-29-03 jcc 97 1 MR. PATTERSON: Okay, sir. If you look at 2 that, that 374, the total expenditures -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. PATTERSON: -- that's there, that does 5 not include the Airport Manager, okay. So you would have to 6 add that in. And, yes, we would like for the current 7 operating revenue to pay for it. There's just not enough, 8 when you look at that number. 'Cause you can see there, 9 right now -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: The 374, then, is -- does not 11 include the -- the manager's salary. It's over here, off to 12 the side. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, and the reason that 14 I did it that way -- I know that we had the conversation 15 with two of your members and two of ours, but I didn't want 16 to take the presumption of just sticking it in there on the 17 budget when it wasn't approved yet. So, that's the reason 18 the number does not reflect it in that summary sheet. And, 19 as a matter of fact, you can go over -- one, two, three -- 20 three pages, and you'll see where it says Airport Fund 21 Expenditure Analysis, and it says Personnel Services, zero, 22 zero, zero, on the left. Should be three pages. You'll 23 note there, under Personnel Services, it does not list the 24 salary in there. All that -- or the benefits. That's just 25 the professional development numbers that are there. 7-29-03 jcc 98 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 2 MR. PATTERSON: And, again, as I said, I just 3 didn't want to be -- maybe I was being too cautious, but I 4 didn't want to be presumptive and just stick the numbers in 5 there. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Am I hearing that we 7 have an expectation that the airport will be self-funding 8 sometime in the future? 9 MR. PATTERSON: That is certainly our goal, 10 sir. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: County and City 12 won't incur the annual costs for capital or expense -- 13 MR. PATTERSON: We would love to see that. I 14 will tell you -- and, again, this is just being very frank 15 about it. In terms of operational costs, airport manager 16 costs, you know, all the other things that go along with the 17 operations of it, I think that you're not too far off from 18 being able to make those numbers work. As long as we're 19 going to continue to improve the airport, especially in 20 conformance with the master plan that's been laid out, I 21 think that the City and the County will still have to look 22 at expenditures with regard to matching grants. If you get 23 a 10-to-1 grant, that's pretty good money in return, but I 24 do believe that if we are going to move toward what the 25 vision of that master plan was, I think we both are going to 7-29-03 jcc 99 1 have to continue to look at some additional participation to 2 be able to match those grants. Especially when -- when you 3 get a grant, you know, that comes in where -- like, where we 4 got the 2.4, where we ended up with 123,000. Yeah, it's a 5 lot of money, 123, but 2.4 is a good return. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ron, I guess, to follow 7 up on what Dave said a little bit, I mean, I think we're, 8 like I said, pretty close to getting it -- not counting the 9 capital improvements, get it on a break-even basis. My 10 question is, I know the -- you know, Airport Board and City, 11 a lot more than the County, spends a lot of time on that 12 master plan. I guess my question is, who -- it's not clear 13 to me that some of these improvements that we -- that we 14 need some of these improvements, I guess, is the easy way to 15 say it. Clearly, we want to have a good airport. Clearly, 16 we have a very nice airport. But we keep on making it 17 bigger, bigger, but who are we benefiting there? I mean, I 18 see pretty big jets in there already, and I can't imagine 19 wanting anything -- or anything bigger is going to be coming 20 in. Most of that traffic -- I mean, I just am wondering 21 where we're going with the airport. And I asked and 22 received a review of the master plan probably six months 23 ago, but I'm not sure I understood a whole lot after that 24 review than I did before. So, I mean, at some point -- 25 MR. PATTERSON: Well -- 7-29-03 jcc 100 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- I would like to, 2 again, you know, in a plain way or simple way that I can 3 understand it, kind of give me the vision of where the 4 airport's going. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Well, let me tell you 6 about -- I'll just try and keep it brief -- an experience 7 with a neighbor city up in the north Texas area, McKinney, 8 who has had a huge success with regard to managing an 9 airport and seeing a great deal of economic benefit. The 10 idea of being able to put infrastructure in place in an 11 airport that will bring the kind of aircraft that bring the 12 kind of business that you want is really what it's all 13 about. If you have an airport that serves nothing but the 14 Piper Cub and the -- you know, all of those kind of things, 15 that's nice to have, but when the Challengers and, you know, 16 the Canada Airs and all of those kind of people start 17 rolling in the door, like this most recent one where there's 18 a $14 million aircraft that puts its wheels down, the City 19 and the County both benefit from the tax revenue based on 20 that. So, not only do you get that, but also you get the 21 fuel flowage to help pay for the airport and all of those 22 kinds of things. 23 The reality is -- is that, you know, we don't 24 see a benefit whereby we look at it and go, "Well, you know, 25 we're just servicing airplanes." We look at it and go, 7-29-03 jcc 101 1 that's -- like infrastructure, you know, like Lowes or Home 2 Depot or somebody plopping down a building. They bring that 3 aircraft, it's taxable. And, quite frankly, in terms of how 4 much support you have to give that airplane for the value 5 you get, it's actually fairly low overall. So, I think when 6 you look -- do a cost benefit that way, I think you can see 7 that you get a fairly decent return on it. The idea being 8 that if you create an environment where you have hangars, 9 runway space, you know, instrument landing systems and 10 towers and those kind of things that can attract that type 11 of thing, that you can then, in turn, tax, I see a benefit 12 there. In addition to that, the spinoff on that is 13 additional development that can happen on the airport to 14 either directly support aviation or, as he was talking about 15 earlier, the nonaviation-related leases. In other words, 16 you create an environment where they can kind of feed off of 17 each other. 18 The biggest problem that we've had in recent 19 years, in my opinion -- this is just Ron's opinion, and Dave 20 may even want to -- may argue with me here, but part of the 21 biggest issue we've had is that you couldn't get a whole lot 22 of development -- forget the runway for a minute, but you 23 had water, but no sewer, you know. And when people go, "You 24 mean I got to put in a septic system? Huh, maybe not." You 25 know. Well, in addition to that, I think if we can finish 7-29-03 jcc 102 1 those utilities, make sure our road infrastructure is in 2 place, our water and utility -- sewer, utilities are in 3 place, all of that kind of stuff, I think we're going to 4 start to see the master plan coming into focus. I also 5 think that, as we grow that master plan -- and, again, I'm 6 trying to, like I said, keep it to a point where I think 7 that we need to keep the focus of the value that the 8 airplanes bring -- the bigger ones bring that we can tax. 9 The spinoff that may come with those that we can, you know, 10 tax, and maybe even sales tax. 11 And, in addition to that, the last thing 12 would be the spinoff businesses that are nonaviation-related 13 that can come with that. You got to properly plan the 14 airport, though, and -- and push that plan to the front, or 15 it will grow willy-nilly, and quite frankly, you end up in a 16 catch-22 where you got a great runway and a great I.L.S. and 17 all that, but you can't build anything. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I support the 19 economic development side of this wholeheartedly. My 20 concern is on the -- I just recall conversations -- you 21 know, prior reviews we've had on the airport that kind of -- 22 you know, we improve the runway and do all this and 23 configure jets, and all of a sudden, the weight capacity is 24 such we got to redo everything again and upgrade it. It's 25 kind of a never-ending cycle of improvement at the airport. 7-29-03 jcc 103 1 I'm not sure I want to get in that cycle. I do think it's 2 very important for us to get the -- the infrastructure in 3 place to encourage other companies like B.A. going out 4 there -- B.A. Products, and -- and other aviation-related 5 companies to locate in Kerrville. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Right. 7 MR. PEARCE: If I might be able to add, one 8 of the things that we're challenged with in the aviation 9 community is not necessarily changing to build and bring 10 somebody else in; it's also trying to support the existing 11 market demand. People are no longer flying small 12 twin-engine or single-engine airplanes for businesses. It's 13 not uncommon to have a single owner that comes in in his 14 jet, whereas before that wasn't the case. There's a lot of 15 folks that -- we had an individual land here about three 16 weeks ago in a 737, his own private airplane. The market is 17 changing and the demand is changing, and so we're trying to 18 accommodate the folks that are coming in, the businesses 19 that are coming in. 20 An example, or one of the places in the 21 process of moving is -- McKinney is changing now, and they 22 have to change some of their -- their support for Texas 23 Instruments. Texas Instruments is now buying two Global 24 Expresses. A Global Express costs approximately $58 million 25 apiece, and they're going to go on the tax roll. The reason 7-29-03 jcc 104 1 they're going to a Global Express for a private business is 2 because they're moving internationally between Asia and 3 straight into McKinney, which is how they got customs; they 4 had to accommodate for that market. Probably ten years ago, 5 we didn't even think about a business taking nonstop flights 6 to Japan. And so we're trying to accommodate those 7 customers that we have here or trying to relocate here for 8 our advantage. And -- and the good thing about that -- I 9 sound like a salesman, but the good thing about that is 10 those moneys go into the General Fund. They don't go to the 11 airport, like the revenues we get for fuel sales, and that 12 goes in the airport and helps us be self-sufficient. The 13 stuff that goes into the General Fund, that pays for our 14 police, that pays for our fire, that pays for our water, 15 that pays for our schools, and you know that's good. I 16 mean, that's a good thing. And so, if we can attract those 17 type of things in there, I think we will all benefit from 18 that. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Dave, don't sit down. 20 I see we're proposing an I.L.S., and I understand that, 21 clearly, that that would be -- that would be a big part of 22 attraction. But I remember years ago, we had also talked 23 about -- and seemed like that we purchased a glide slope 24 system. Is that system in place? 25 MR. PEARCE: No, sir, you do not have a glide 7-29-03 jcc 105 1 slope system here. There's a localizer approach, but that 2 doesn't give you your azimuth; that just gives your 3 direction. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We never followed 5 through with it? 6 MR. PEARCE: We never got to the second 7 phase. And what I've been able to find is there was an 8 attempt to get a full I.L.S. in here, but when it was 9 discovered that the F.A.A. would not fund it, it kind of 10 stopped right there. What I presented here for 11 consideration in the future is we can do that at a local -- 12 MR. PATTERSON: Keep talking for a second. 13 MR. PEARCE: We can do that at local expense 14 and still get the precision approach in here, which would be 15 a major benefit for -- as far as serving the customers that 16 are already demanding. And the reason I -- I mention that 17 is because a lot of your corporate businesses, they're not 18 allowed to come in unless they have a precision approach, 19 not necessarily whether they need it. It can be perfect 20 weather, but part of their flight rules say they need to 21 have a precision approach, and so that's something that we 22 need to consider of what we want to do in the future. 23 MR. KNIPPEL: We do have glide slope 24 indicators. 25 MR. PEARCE: You have the PAPIs and the 7-29-03 jcc 106 1 VASIs, but that is actually for visual when you come in. 2 You can look at the -- for azimuth, for your -- your actual 3 I.L.S., sitting in your cockpit. You got a little bar, and 4 you can watch that, and it will tell you whether you're too 5 high or too low, and you can fly it right down to 200 feet. 6 And then you'll have the runway perfectly in sight and right 7 on the line. So, you can actually be in the clouds until 8 200 feet over the ground and be right perfectly at the end 9 of the runway. And that's the benefit of the -- having the 10 glide slope, whereas now we've got the side view, but until 11 you get the runway visually from the VASIs or PAPIs, you 12 can't see -- you can't get down to those. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- go ahead. 14 MR. PEARCE: Yes, sir? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: David, I recall you 16 reporting to the Airport Board about the fact that grant 17 money seems to be -- F.A.A. grant money seems to have dried 18 up, for instance, for instrument landing systems. 19 MR. PEARCE: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me finish; you 21 can just respond to the whole thing. 22 MR. PEARCE: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I recently attended a 24 national gathering of COG people in which we had a speaker 25 from the F.A.A. from Washington. I asked him that question 7-29-03 jcc 107 1 about whether or not those moneys had, in fact, dried up, 2 and he said yes, but there are still F.A.A. moneys out there 3 for global or GPS-type systems for that same purpose. Are 4 you aware of that, and -- 5 MR. PEARCE: Yes, I am. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- does that have a 7 possibility -- 8 MR. PEARCE: That is -- yes and no. I sound 9 like -- the W.A.A.S. system is what the F.A.A. is going to, 10 which is Wide Area Augmentation Systems, is what it stands 11 for. And what that will do is put something on the ground 12 with the satellite to allow to you fly a precision approach. 13 To have that installed right now, they're looking at 2012 to 14 2015 for some of your commercial airports. For Kerrville 15 and the general aviation market, we're looking at probably 16 2020 to 2025, if we can get it. What that means from the 17 F.A.A. standpoint is they're not funding any more I.L.S.'s. 18 They're only going to fund W.A.A.S. and help support the 19 I.L.S.'s that are already in the system. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 21 MR. PEARCE: So, for us, if we want to get a 22 precision approach, we will need to fund that ourselves. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 24 MR. PEARCE: There's a big, wide window in 25 there that it's just not available. 7-29-03 jcc 108 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The government man 2 didn't tell us that part. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My last comment on -- off 4 this specific comment is, I think it would be helpful -- I'm 5 not anti-airport by any means, but it just helps, 'cause I 6 get questions from constituents who want to know why we're 7 spending all this money for these few people -- if we had 8 the information readily available as to the economic or the 9 tax standpoint of the inventory and companies out there and 10 aircraft. I don't know how hard it is to pull that out. 11 MR. PEARCE: You actually do. I think I 12 left -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I distributed one to 14 you. You didn't read it. 15 MR. PEARCE: -- a copy of that. It's -- 16 you've got $30 million of economic impact for Kerrville per 17 year, 590 jobs that are directly impacted by it. It was a 18 study just done about a year and a half, two years ago, and 19 there's -- it shows all the comparison of the airports 20 around. If you need additional copies, I can get that. 21 It's about 28 to 30 airports in there. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but, I mean, I 23 don't like those numbers. I mean, I think those are Chamber 24 of Commerce numbers, and they kind of use multipliers and 25 all that. I want to know the value -- tell me the gross 7-29-03 jcc 109 1 value of the inventory of planes that are in Kerrville, and 2 I can figure out how much the County's making off that each 3 year. I mean, I don't care about the employees and all 4 that. I mean, I care about them, but I want to know the 5 asset value. 6 MR. PATTERSON: I'm sorry. Does this report 7 show the number of aircraft and the value of each? 8 MR. PEARCE: No, it doesn't, because it 9 will -- it will encompass the air -- the value of the 10 airplanes that are on the tax roll, and that's different. 11 If you have a privately-owned airplane that does not list it 12 as your business, you're not going to derive any tax 13 benefits off of that, so those are set to the side. If you 14 have one that's in a business name, that's when we're going 15 to generate those tax revenues. 16 MR. PATTERSON: That's the big boys. 17 MR. PEARCE: And that's the -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was, I apologize, only 19 half listening. If it's not listed as a business asset, 20 it's not taxed? 21 MR. PEARCE: No. 22 MR. BROWN: Like a car. 23 MR. PEARCE: Exactly the same thing; it's 24 like a car. Now, your larger -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Some counties tax cars. 7-29-03 jcc 110 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 MR. PEARCE: Between jets, 99 percent of 3 those are listed. If you take your smaller aircraft, you 4 won't derive a tax benefit, but those will contribute as far 5 as generating fuel sales and those type of things. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, what's the -- 7 the -- go back to your first question, Ron, as to the -- the 8 big picture of how we run the airport. How do you recommend 9 we -- I mean, I don't think we're able to do that tonight. 10 How do we tackle that? 11 MR. PATTERSON: Well, the -- the discussion 12 that -- and it was a very good discussion we had about -- 13 the four members talking about, you know, here's all the 14 options. The reality is, I think you have -- I think you 15 really have three. One of them is either -- County operate 16 it. Second one is the City operates it. Third one is we 17 stay joint, but then we go in and allow the board and 18 authorize the board to have the authority -- you know, which 19 I think they're already authorized, you know. And -- but 20 allow that to continue; go with that process, allowing them 21 to enter into leases. But what that means is -- is they act 22 on your behalf, okay? So, you know, you've got to make sure 23 that you've -- you've got the trust level, you've got people 24 there that you want and need. And that -- and I'm not 25 saying the current ones are not, I'm just saying that that's 7-29-03 jcc 111 1 just the reality. 2 But then that board, then, is now responsible 3 for the management and operation. And I say that as two 4 different things. Management as, you know, running day -- 5 you know, running the budget, putting it into place, 6 presenting it for passage, all those things, and even going 7 to the City and the County and asking for money, because 8 there is no taxing authority. Then the operation is that 9 day-to-day operation where you've got, you know, the Airport 10 Manager who's going to run -- you know, and you've got the 11 Street Department who, like I said, puts X's on the runways 12 or takes care of the streets. You've got, you know, Legal, 13 who's working with all the contracts, managing all of that. 14 So, at that point in time, that body needs support. They 15 need administrative support. And I believe that they can 16 contract -- and they could with the City. 17 I mean, basically, we're doing the same thing 18 we are now, but we have an interlocal agreement between the 19 City and that board to do those services. So -- and then 20 that's another option. And I think it's one that -- you 21 know, again, I would say that if you go that route, that if 22 that body's going to do that and enter into that agreement, 23 you would almost treat it as if you were outsourcing the 24 management, if you were going to get a private company who 25 runs airports, you know, and they're responsible for that 7-29-03 jcc 112 1 management. And if they don't perform on the contract, 2 then, you know, deal with it that way. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the only oversight 4 under that scenario that the City or the County would have 5 would be appointment to that board, and deciding whether 6 we're going to fund something if they ask us to fund it? 7 MR. PATTERSON: That is correct. That is 8 correct, sir. Your analysis is -- 9 MAYOR FINE: A lot like E.I.C. right now. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bad example. 11 MAYOR FINE: Well, but it's one that's worked 12 for a long time. I mean, if -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but there's -- 14 yeah. Well, I think it's different than E.I.C. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think so. 16 MAYOR FINE: Yeah, they have more -- it's -- 17 I'm just saying, as far as having their own budget, you put 18 them on there, they spend the money, they handle the 19 day-to-day stuff of those moneys, how it's spent. And -- 20 MR. PATTERSON: The management concept is the 21 same. 22 MAYOR FINE: Right. 23 MR. PATTERSON: What they do is contract for 24 a specific dollar amount to be paid, and then those services 25 are provided to them. The difference is -- is that there's 7-29-03 jcc 113 1 a taxing authority under one, and the other one has none and 2 they have to go ask for those funds to be provided. So, as 3 you said -- I mean, you hit the nail on the head. The 4 authority that -- or I should say the place where you have 5 the hold is going to be on the funding mechanism side and on 6 who you appoint. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, it's more akin to 8 appraisal districts. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: More akin to what, 10 Jon? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The appraisal district, 12 where you have -- appointments are made by entities, and 13 they have their own budgets, they run their own operation. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, that's a good analogy. 15 That's a good analogy. With the fact that the -- that, you 16 know, with -- 'cause the appraisal district, where do they 17 get their money? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: From us. 19 MR. PATTERSON: So it will be the same thing. 20 So -- 21 MR. SMITH: I thought either the board or the 22 authority, one or the other, had taxing authority. 23 MR. PATTERSON: No, sir. Actually, they 24 specifically, at the point in time the election was called 25 and held, under that legislative -- or enabling legislation, 7-29-03 jcc 114 1 it said you have to have two items on the ballot if you want 2 them to have taxing authority. One is the creation of the 3 authority. The second is the taxing authority given to 4 them. When the election was held, there was one item on the 5 agenda; that was the creation of the authority. 6 MR. SMITH: Well, you could modify it so they 7 would have taxing authority if -- if the -- if we desired 8 for them to have it. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have to go back to -- 10 MAYOR FINE: Back to the voters. 11 MR. PATTERSON: With an election, yes, sir. 12 And it would be a totally separate taxing entity. 13 MR. SMITH: Okay, I understand. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't see that 15 flying. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not tonight. 17 MAYOR FINE: No pun intended. 18 MR. PATTERSON: I understand. So, I -- you 19 know, again, I -- we are -- and, again, from our discussion, 20 you know, we're prepared to take a stab at, you know, 21 looking at interlocal agreements, all of those kinds of 22 things, from a staff perspective. Quite frankly, the only 23 thing is, is that we were -- we've started looking at it, 24 but we kind of wanted to hear, you know, from the whole 25 body, you know, and a general idea of what the thoughts 7-29-03 jcc 115 1 were. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like what we're 3 doing. I like the City/County program with the board. What 4 I don't understand is, do we -- do we continue with the 5 budget like we're doing now? 6 MR. PATTERSON: No, sir. Basically, what 7 would happen is -- the reason that -- well, first of all, 8 the reason that what we're doing today really doesn't work 9 is because you have an airport board who really has more 10 authority than -- than it's been doing in the past. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What I meant was, as 12 that -- I like the third option. The first option was the 13 County run it, the City run it, and then the third option. 14 I like the third option. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what I meant. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. The difference would 18 be, is that with the Airport Manager's help, the Airport 19 Board would develop a budget. They would then, in turn, 20 submit that to the City and County for review and approval, 21 and it's either thumbs up or thumbs down. And then, at that 22 point in time, they -- and the manager and -- and would then 23 be in charge of going and implementing that budget. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the Airport Manager, 25 at this point, works for the board, not the City or the 7-29-03 jcc 116 1 County. 2 MR. PATTERSON: Well, actually, the way that 3 we had envisioned it would be that there would be a 4 contract -- an interlocal agreement with the City, okay? 5 That -- he would still be an employee, so he'd keep all of 6 the benefits, all that kind of stuff, all right? But 7 through that contract, okay, he would report to them, in 8 terms of keeping track of budgets, day-to-day operations, 9 all of those kind of things, okay? But he would still be an 10 employee of the City. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: My sense is that the 12 costs of the airport would go up under that third option. 13 That would -- appointed board would be less sensitive to 14 costs and revenues than the current situation. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the makeup 16 of that board, you have to -- you look at in a different 17 light than the County currently has. We've looked at it as 18 an advisory board. I think if you, all of a sudden, 19 financially -- I mean, the appointments may change. 20 MAYOR FINE: Yeah, that's what he was saying 21 earlier, and that's in our BCI. You look at who you put on 22 specific boards very carefully, depending upon maybe their 23 backgrounds, even, and how you put them on there. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 25 MR. BROWN: Some people are willing to spend 7-29-03 jcc 117 1 a lot more time. 2 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 3 MR. BROWN: Board members are having to 4 spend -- they may -- those people may be willing to do it, 5 but if they're not ... 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I see it as a 7 catalyst for making the airport stand on its own two feet. 8 MAYOR FINE: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And get us there a 10 little more rapidly than we would otherwise get there, 11 because they're going to be charged with the responsibility 12 of making that thing pay its way. And the only thing that 13 they really would want to come back to us -- either of us 14 for would be for grant moneys, if they hadn't generated 15 enough revenue to cover the grants. I think they have the 16 opportunity to do that, too. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, if that's the 18 most likely outcome, I'd sure support that. 19 MAYOR FINE: I agree with Bill; I think 20 that's -- and that's kind of what we discussed in that 21 meeting we had before, was that scenario. That would make 22 it -- 23 MR. PATTERSON: Just standing here thinking 24 through this, listening to what Commissioner Baldwin said, 25 there really is a fourth option. 7-29-03 jcc 118 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Uh-huh. 2 MR. PATTERSON: And it didn't even dawn on 3 me -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here it comes. 5 MAYOR FINE: He didn't say it was a good one. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Didn't even dawn on me till I 7 was just standing here. The fourth option is -- and you 8 kind of mentioned -- I know you meant, "I like Option 3," 9 but it made me think, and that is that if you really want it 10 to be advisory and you want it to be just like it is, we 11 keep pressing on, you can go in and you can do away with the 12 board as-is, under the authority it was created, 'cause it 13 was created under the Texas Municipal Airport Act, and say, 14 you know, I'm going -- you could take the same people, even 15 reappoint them to the new advisory airport board. Okay? 16 You can do that. The problem with it is this; we end up 17 right back with the issues we were dealing with just 18 recently with the bidding, you know, all of these things 19 that -- I mean, we're right back where we started. If you 20 want a more efficient operation that's customer-friendly, 21 that we can respond to the customers who go, "Hey, I want to 22 put that out there," or, "I want to develop this hangar," 23 or, "I want to do this." If the board can do that without 24 having to bid and do all that other kind of stuff, I think 25 you're going to see a better response. That's -- so -- but 7-29-03 jcc 119 1 there is that fourth option. But, again, it puts you right 2 back in the pickle barrel you were in before. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to finish this up 5 in a future discussion. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I thought he asked a 7 question, "What do y'all think?" Didn't he ask that 8 question? 9 MAYOR FINE: Yeah. 10 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I tried to answer it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I like Option 3 the best, 13 I think. But I need to think some more. 14 MAYOR FINE: I think Option 3 is the one we 15 need to explore, get into some more detail about how the 16 interlocal agreements would work, maybe the funding 17 mechanisms. I think there -- you know, what I'm hearing 18 there is some concern about how the interlocal agreements 19 would work. And, I mean, I -- we've done it before with you 20 guys, other entities, but I think we just need to look at it 21 a little bit deeper on Option 3. I think listening to 22 Option 1 and 2 are out. Option 4, plugging like we're 23 doing, it's not working well, so -- is that where 24 everybody's at? Are we on the same page, on Option 3? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm in agreement with 7-29-03 jcc 120 1 you. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's one other 3 point, Ron. It's a minor point, but the current board also 4 has the authority to sit as a zoning board of adjustment for 5 airport and that which is related to airport. 6 MR. PATTERSON: That is correct, and that is 7 a typical power given to an airport board that they do need, 8 because there is overlay districts, there's all kind of 9 zoning issues with regard to RPZ, all kind of things that 10 they need to be able to deal with. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there any mechanisms 13 to turn the board into an elected board? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Probably under the 15 authority. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Under the authority, there 17 was an option, and after the election -- I'm stretching my 18 memory here a little bit, but if I remember right, the act 19 -- the enabling legislation for an authority said that you 20 can have an election and then, so many days after that 21 election, you have to declare, are they going to be 22 appointed or elected? And that has already been declared 23 that they would be appointed, so I believe that item is lost 24 without another election, but I -- I have to verify that. 25 MR. BROWN: Would it be reasonable to -- 7-29-03 jcc 121 1 several people have indicated a preference for Option Number 2 3, for the -- Ron and the staff to put together a kind of an 3 outline of that sort of thing and distribute to everybody 4 for further consideration? You know, a more detailed and 5 written basis. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Some of the 7 particulars of it. 8 MR. BROWN: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of an interlocal 10 agreement. 11 MR. BROWN: To outline in a detailed manner, 12 with Dave's help, as we could possibly do, showing all the 13 warts and the good things, and then we can all take a look 14 at it. 15 MR. PATTERSON: What I would like to be able 16 to do, then, is the staff go off, take a look at, you know, 17 what would a budget look like under this scenario? How 18 would it feel? How would you operate it? You know, that 19 kind of stuff, put that together. Also, maybe go ahead and 20 put together a draft interlocal agreement so you can look at 21 it, give that to all of you. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You look at it, provide 23 feedback, and we'll just work on that until we get it 24 hammered out to -- you know, meeting -- you know, either -- 25 we'll either thumbs-up it or thumbs-down it. Y'all will 7-29-03 jcc 122 1 tell us one way or the other once we put that together. 2 That gives us a direction to work with and allows us at 3 least a concept under which to move forward from this day 4 forward in dealing with the board and, you know, with the 5 Commissioners and the Council. So, okay. 6 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 7 MR. PATTERSON: Make sense? Just trying to 8 make sure we're all -- okay. Did y'all have any questions? 9 (Several people speaking at once.) 10 MR. BROWN: Apparently, it's a problem we 11 need to resolve. 12 MR. PATTERSON: All right, sir. We are -- we 13 know which direction to head. Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just -- I just 15 wanted to say, y'all don't forget we have a court reporter 16 over here trying to take down -- she can only take down one 17 voice at a time. 18 MAYOR FINE: One quick voice. Why don't we 19 take five minutes, let everybody take a break before we move 20 on to the next one, if necessary? All right. Several of us 21 have already been sneaking out. 22 MR. PATTERSON: That's fine. 23 MAYOR FINE: Some people are trapped up there 24 and may not be able to get out, so we'll take just five. 25 (Recess taken from 7:27 p.m. to 7:35 p.m.) 7-29-03 jcc 123 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2 MAYOR FINE: Waiting on Gene. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Want me to go ahead and 4 start? 5 MAYOR FINE: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can pray again. 7 MR. PATTERSON: The next item is under Tab 8, 8 which is Community Recycling Center. This particular item 9 is where the City currently operates a recycling center that 10 is on County-owned property, and the City leases that 11 property. And then, at that point in time, what we have 12 been doing and through this process has been -- is that if 13 there is participation in improvements to that, that both 14 entities participate. However, at any given time, if that 15 facility were to close and leave, the improvements stay with 16 the property; i.e. they stay with the County. Right now, 17 you can see here that there has been a great deal of 18 expansion at the facility. This facility -- number one goal 19 is to redirect the waste stream from the landfill, and it 20 has done a very good job of that. 21 As you can see here over to the right, see 22 that there's been expansion of service to include new items 23 in the collections. There's been many, many items that the 24 community has requested that we be able to recycle that we 25 have not been able to in the past that have been added. A 7-29-03 jcc 124 1 hundred percent participation from all of the schools in the 2 recycling program with the white paper program; that is a 3 tremendous amount of paper. In addition to that, we also 4 have three special collection days now that have been added 5 in addition to those we had previously, and two of those are 6 hazardous household products and paint. Y'all know that 7 that has been a problem, that in the past we only did it one 8 time a year. We now have additional days that we can 9 collect that. 10 In addition to that, the computer and TV 11 recycling has been addressed. The Computer Club of 12 Kerrville has been a tremendous aid in that. What they do 13 on those days is they actually show up and actually help 14 dismantle computers, take apart the pieces and take pieces 15 that actually continue to work, and provide and build 16 additional computers for those who need them. The other 17 thing that they have also done is started a program whereby 18 we can get them dismantled and get them out of there 19 quicker. As you may know, a cathode ray tube or a CRT or a 20 computer screen, you can't just throw it in the trash 21 because it does have hazardous waste. So, they've been able 22 to handle that as well. 23 One of the things that happened this last 24 year was extending the cover -- excuse me. One of the 25 programs that's being discussed for this next year is to 7-29-03 jcc 125 1 extend the cover for the area. Do you have a map in here? 2 Bet we didn't -- 3 MR. BROOKS: No, unfortunately. 4 MR. PATTERSON: If you wouldn't mind, if 5 you'd look under Computer Recycling -- one, two -- the third 6 page, it shows you a diagram of what is being proposed for 7 this next year. And what you can see here is that there is 8 an area where, if you look on the far left, it says expand 9 current head cover to meet the existing concrete slab. That 10 area would allow additional covered area for collection. 11 The bottom line is, during the day it gets very hot out 12 there, and they hand-pick this stuff that they're taking 13 out. The other thing is, in inclement weather, they're able 14 to go ahead and process additional cars; they can pull them 15 underneath there. The other thing that is also in here is, 16 you'll see out to the right a blue area. It says new slab 17 on grade. This is one of the '02-'03 improvements that is 18 underway today, and one of the things that they -- the other 19 thing in the '02-'03, it says new exit for facility out to 20 the back out onto McFarland Drive. 21 One of the concerns that we've had is that, 22 right now, getting in and out on Schreiner Street is fairly 23 dangerous. There's not a light or a signal or stop sign 24 intersection there. So, the idea would be able to bring 25 them in and exit them on McFarland. This way, it will be a 7-29-03 jcc 126 1 safer transition for those motorists who are using this. In 2 addition to that, you'll see, "Add overhead cover to newly 3 installed concrete drive." That's a proposed FY '03-'04 4 improvement. That is the thing you see up there that says, 5 "Extending cover over work area, $17,000." The other item 6 that you see for FY '03-'04 is the prefab building, which is 7 the small building in the back. This facility would be one 8 of the prefab buildings that you can buy. You know, now 9 that I think about it, I have an idea -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You've got one already. 11 MR. PATTERSON: We couldn't make Kyle's work, 12 so we'll just take his over there. That's $10,000. Hey, 13 okay. Anyway, we may make that work. If that all comes 14 together, we'll take Kyle's over there. Otherwise, they're 15 looking at about $10,000 to be able to put that facility 16 there to go in and completely dismantle the computers on a 17 regular basis, instead of just doing them twice a year. We 18 have a huge, pent-up demand for that. It's amazing to me 19 how often people are changing out computers, and continuing 20 to do so. The bottom line is -- is that the projected 21 operating expenses for FY '04 is at about a little over 22 $202,000. And then, adding the cost of the expansion of the 23 main customer lanes with a cover over, at a cost of $17,000, 24 which is that number, and a cost of a prefabricated building 25 of $10,000 estimate, which we have looked at on the map. 7-29-03 jcc 127 1 What that would be is -- is that if we split that half and 2 half, half of the $17,000, half of the $10,000, that would 3 be $13,500 each to be able to do that. 4 Right now, the center proceeds from 5 marketable collected items is budgeted at $18,000 for FY 6 '04, and it's up from the $12,000 you budgeted in FY '03. I 7 will tell you that commodity prices are actually down, all 8 right? What that's saying is -- is that the demand that we 9 feel that we can get -- in other words, the amount that we 10 would have to sell would go up enough to generate some 11 additional revenue. But the bottom line is -- is that, you 12 know, the -- the market's been soft. We haven't -- you 13 know, it doesn't sell well, all that kind of stuff. You 14 can't be in this business for the purpose of trying to make 15 money on recyclables; it doesn't work. Your goal has to be 16 waste reduction, and that is working, as you can see. 17 One of the things to tell you about real 18 quickly is that we have scrap metal. It used to be in piles 19 out back. It's now being stored in a 20-cubic-yard 20 dumpster. We're also now being able to take styrofoam, 21 rechargeable batteries, ink, printer cartridges, 22 televisions, empty propane tanks less than 50 pounds, and 23 any telephone are now accepted, so those are the things that 24 we've been able to add in this last round of changes. We 25 also feel like that the scrap metal volume will continue to 7-29-03 jcc 128 1 increase, and cardboard volume is expected to increase by 2 30 percent -- excuse me, to increase 30 percent, or add an 3 additional 60 tons in the next year. As I talked about, 4 too, we also added the hazardous waste household recycling 5 events, and recycling in that particular area is up by 6 20 percent. Twenty percent is a -- is a big number. And 7 we're also being able to process vehicles in a minute to -- 8 to a minute and a half in that facility. It's amazing to me 9 that you can go by there on those days and you can watch the 10 cars line up. And they know, you know, when they're open, 11 and they line up. They take that stuff, they process it; 12 you're in and out in just a few minutes. They've done a 13 tremendous job -- we had a big problem with paint, things 14 like that, household hazardous waste, you know, spray cans, 15 all kinds of stuff, the computers and other things being 16 found in the landfill, and a lot of that has been reduced by 17 allowing for additional times and additional space to be 18 able to do that at this facility. 19 I have Paul Knippel here, who is the Public 20 Works Director. We have a person now, David Vasquez. You 21 may recall here just a couple years ago, we had a position 22 that was half airport, half solid waste and recycling. We 23 have enough business now in recycling and solid waste that 24 we have an individual who operates -- manages that and 25 reports to Paul. Unfortunately, he has been indisposed 7-29-03 jcc 129 1 tonight, so he was not available, but Paul is very familiar 2 with this program and can answer any questions that you 3 might have. With that, I'll shut up and let you ask 4 questions. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question, 6 Ron. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You talk about adding 9 some new services. I'm not certain when, but at some time 10 in the recent past, you discontinued handling crank case 11 oil, and I get calls from people who have ranches or large 12 farms; they have heavy equipment, not only their tractors, 13 but some road-type equipment, and they have no way of -- of 14 disposing of crank case oil. Why did we discontinue it, and 15 what would it take to get it back? 16 MR. PATTERSON: Paul? 17 MR. KNIPPEL: I don't know. (Laughter.) 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that answers 19 that. 20 MR. KNIPPEL: I'll get you an answer back, 21 Commissioner, on that. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got two or 24 three questions; hope it won't take long. Could we look at 25 this revenue analysis page? 7-29-03 jcc 130 1 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me say, first, 3 that I think this is a good community service, and I hear 4 some appreciation from citizens about this good service. 5 And second, after that statement, like the airport, I'd like 6 to see this to be self-funding. I don't know if that's 7 reasonable or not, but it would be a good thing. First 8 question is, what -- what's "Kerr County CRC, $4,500"? 9 MR. PATTERSON: That $4,500 represents the 10 amount that -- during the process last year, this very same 11 process, that we went through where we had asked for 12 participation last year. And I can tell you what that was 13 for if you would like me to. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's the amount 15 Kerr County government budgeted? Okay, that's good enough. 16 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't want to -- 18 MR. KNIPPEL: That was for the slab that -- 19 this -- the next fiscal year, we're asking for a 20 participation on a cover that will go over the slab that we 21 built last year. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's close enough. 23 $6,400 charges for services. Are these user fees, all of 24 them? 25 MR. PATTERSON: No, sir. Actually, like 7-29-03 jcc 131 1 recycling center proceeds, those type things. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Those are going to be -- for 4 instance, that particular one is articles that we are 5 putting out that we're trying to sell in terms of articles. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 7 MR. PATTERSON: That are collected. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. The rest of 9 it -- 10 MR. PATTERSON: But, like, bins, those are 11 replacement bins. We provide the first one, but if you lose 12 one, you have to buy that. That's what that is, yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What's the total 14 amount of money that users pay? When I use the recycling 15 center, you don't charge me? 16 MAYOR FINE: No. 17 MR. BROOKS: Unless it's paid for by the 18 B.F.I. contract. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What's the surcharge 20 of $9.50? 21 MR. KNIPPEL: It's about $43 per ton tipping 22 fee at the landfill. Out of that comes $9.75 surcharge to 23 the City, and the rest of that goes back to B.F.I. and their 24 operations of the landfill. That $9.75 gets split up in 25 different areas with regard to the landfill. It goes to 7-29-03 jcc 132 1 operations, it goes to a post-closure fund. Out of the 2 operations portion of that $9.75 comes the operation of the 3 recycling center. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm ignorant about 5 this particular operation, and I don't want to take up your 6 time on it. I'll talk to Paul sometime. Thank you. 7 MAYOR FINE: I got a quick question. 8 MR. PATTERSON: He'll have Mr. Vasquez there. 9 MAYOR FINE: We've got a lot of friends out 10 in west Kerr County, and some of them recycle, some of them 11 don't. Main reason is 'cause they don't come to town all 12 that often, to where, you know, when they do come, usually 13 they don't bring their recyclables in with them. But 14 several of them have asked me about the possibility of 15 doing, like, a one-day-a-week pickup in Hunt or something 16 like that; having, like, a -- 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Maybe we could use 18 that library truck. (Laughter.) 19 MAYOR FINE: Yeah, there you go. And not 20 someplace where people can dump all the time, but have, 21 like, a truck on-site one day a week. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Take books out, take 23 trash back? 24 MAYOR FINE: There you go. That would work. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's synergy. 7-29-03 jcc 133 1 But -- 2 MAYOR FINE: Something along that line. You 3 don't want a site where people are just going to drop stuff 4 off. It would become one day a week, have a truck out there 5 for a couple-three hours. A lot of them said they would do 6 that; they just didn't want to take vehicles to town with 7 them. And it's just -- I promised I would bring it up, 8 so -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a good idea. 10 I think one on the west end, one in the far east. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: East, too. 12 MAYOR FINE: Just one day a week, maybe a 13 half a day, whatever. People know they can bring their 14 stuff. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because there are a lot 16 of people that would -- I think would use it to dispose of 17 hazardous stuff, but they're just not going -- it's hard for 18 them to get the stuff into Kerrville. 19 MR. BROWN: If they could take crank case 20 oil, they'd really be happy. 21 MAYOR FINE: Well, a lot of these people 22 have, like, glass and tin. Even if they burn their trash, 23 the glass isn't going to burn, so they could bring the trash 24 in at the drop site, things like that, 'cause a lot of them 25 are going the burn trash anyway, the paper stuff. So -- but 7-29-03 jcc 134 1 it's just something that -- you know, to take a look at. I 2 don't know if it would have to be run -- run through B.F.I. 3 or something that -- 4 MR. PATTERSON: The -- this is an ignorance 5 question. Out in the county, who provides the pickup 6 service? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: B.F.I., majority. 8 There's some private ones, but B.F.I. is the main -- 9 MR. PATTERSON: B.F.I., are they not 10 providing any recycling services? 11 MAYOR FINE: Not in the county. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. 13 MAYOR FINE: That's a separate contract. We 14 just -- we just do the contract with them in the city 15 limits. I don't know who they actually contract with in the 16 county. Do y'all? Individuals or individual people? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Individual landowners. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Used to be a little 19 outfit out of Mountain Home. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: B.F.I. bought out 21 two of them. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Junior Fritz just 23 started one of his own. 24 MAYOR FINE: Yeah. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: It's commercial, I think, for 7-29-03 jcc 135 1 dumpsters. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pretty much 3 commercial. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But both of them -- I 5 mean, most of the small ones get going and B.F.I. buys them. 6 That's what has happened out in the county. 7 MR. PATTERSON: I just didn't know if they 8 had that available. Sometimes they'll provide a package; 9 you can get recycling and all that kind of stuff. I just 10 didn't know. 11 MAYOR FINE: I have no idea. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the cost on 13 the blue bins if the County wasn't to acquire them? 14 MR. PATTERSON: How much is each bin? It's 15 $5? 16 MS. SEKULA: $5. 17 MR. PATTERSON: For the replacement cost? 18 MS. SEKULA: For a bin. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, okay. Like, if you 20 want two, you got to pay 5 bucks to get an extra one, $5 to 21 replace one. They're not overly expensive. 22 MR. HOWARD: Ron, the $17,000 for the cover, 23 does that include both sides? 24 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. It finishes the 25 project. 7-29-03 jcc 136 1 MR. HOWARD: Right. The one over the main 2 drive covers the slab on the other side? 3 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct, sir. 4 MR. HOWARD: Okay. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Go back to that, yes. 6 MR. BROWN: If we can use Kyle's building, 7 that $10,000 will be reduced? 8 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. Actually, I don't 9 know why I hadn't thought of it till just standing here. 10 MR. HOLLOWAY: Right now, I can tell you he's 11 already got plans for that thing, to put the Homeland 12 Security equipment in it. 13 MR. BROWN: Shouldn't have gone home. 14 MR. DICKERSON: Well, if he doesn't keep it, 15 I want it for the same reason. (Laughter.) I'll tell him 16 you want it for that, and I'll take it. 17 MR. PATTERSON: We'll see. Yes, sir? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Patterson, these expenses 19 at the Community Recycling Center, shouldn't they be 20 controlled by the lease agreement to the extent that the 21 lease agreement provides for them? 22 MR. PATTERSON: The lease agreement, quite 23 frankly, there -- there's certain of these things that need 24 to be rewritten. This particular item, where it talks about 25 -- let's see if I can pull it out. The lease agreement 7-29-03 jcc 137 1 right now talks about the provision of leasing land for, you 2 know, a certain amount. And -- but then it was amended in 3 '96 where there was a specific project that was set up, and 4 it was for -- there was a $5,000 project where the -- the 5 City and the County came to agreement where they would be 6 open more hours, certain things would be done. But the 7 lease agreement right now, basically as it's extended now, 8 is just for the lease. It does not contemplate this, and it 9 doesn't contemplate what we did last year either. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, does it not make 11 provision for it? The lease term was extended, but 12 otherwise, all the terms and conditions of the original 13 lease agreement, which I believe was a '94 lease 14 agreement -- 15 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, I believe. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me, '95 lease agreement 17 to '99. Then it was extended through 2004, but that lease 18 agreement provides that maintenance, alterations, and 19 improvements should be borne by the lessee under the terms 20 of that lease, if I'm reading it correctly. 21 MR. PATTERSON: That is correct. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Wouldn't that -- 23 MR. PATTERSON: And then in, I think, '96, 24 there was some contemplation of a payment by the County of 25 $5,000, and then the City agrees to do certain things, like 7-29-03 jcc 138 1 hire additional personnel to operate the center for more 2 hours, extend the number of hours by December '96. City 3 would still be responsible for operation, et cetera. Let's 4 see. But -- but that particular item does not -- I don't 5 know if this replaces this, or if it's just -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That terminated on 7 September 30th. 8 MR. PATTERSON: Right. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The copy I have is correct, of 10 '97? 11 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. So -- and then in 12 '97 as well, there was an amendment which actually reduced 13 the land area that was being leased, because it appears as 14 though the 216th Task Force used to have something there. 15 Do you know about that? 16 MR. DICKERSON: Stored vehicles, I guess. 17 MR. PATTERSON: It was a facility, but 18 anyway, that's been removed. Then -- then the rest of it 19 just is extensions of the contract. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. PATTERSON: But, as I said, that -- the 22 last amendment was -- 23 MAYOR FINE: What is it we're looking at? 24 MR. PATTERSON: Looks like it's '99. But -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That was the one they extended 7-29-03 jcc 139 1 through 2004, I think. 2 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. And that's 3 the last thing that was done. 4 MAYOR FINE: I thought we were all 5 responsible for improvements. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It says -- I mean, City's 7 responsible -- from what the Judge was saying, the City's 8 responsible for it under the current terms. What needs to 9 be done, then, regardless -- it may have been done wrong in 10 the past, but if the County's going to pay anything, a new 11 agreement needs to be worked out. 12 MR. PATTERSON: I would agree, it needs to be 13 rewritten if we're going to do this. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We'd rather have the 15 City just go ahead and pay for it. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, I like -- if they 17 pay for it, leave it the same agreement. (Laughter.) 18 MR. SMITH: It's a 5-5 vote. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It would be 5-O at our 20 place. 21 MAYOR FINE: Yeah, I can -- 22 MR. HOWARD: We have the same thing. 23 MAYOR FINE: Same thing over here. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I wanted to ask the 25 question a while ago, this prefab building, the proposed 7-29-03 jcc 140 1 prefab building, it seemed to me that that -- that part of 2 the property had been set aside for some other reason some 3 years back. I -- for some reason, it just -- it just 4 triggered a thought that we had done something separate with 5 that particular piece of property, and it may have been the 6 task force. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. It -- I got it 8 here; let me find it for you real quick. 9 MAYOR FINE: The task force at one time had 10 something on this -- kind of the north side back there where 11 this other gate is back here. 12 MR. PATTERSON: It says, Whereas, County had 13 previously maintained a storage building within the fenced 14 area of the property described in the lease agreement for 15 use by the 216th Judicial District Community Service 16 Program, as it was called then. Whereas, County has 17 relocated said storage building on an adjacent area of the 18 property leased to City; and whereas, City and County find 19 it to the mutual benefit to release -- release from the 20 lease agreement the property on which County's buildings are 21 now located. And then it describes that area. It was 1 22 point -- no, it's a piece of that. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think it was 24 the task force. 25 MR. PATTERSON: .13 acres. 7-29-03 jcc 141 1 MAYOR FINE: Wasn't it fenced at one time? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 3 MAYOR FINE: That fence was taken down. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 5 MAYOR FINE: But that's where they used to 6 store -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just don't think it 8 was the drug task force; I think it was somebody else. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: It was the task force. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Was it really? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, it's right here. 12 MS. BAILEY: Probation. That's 216th 13 Community Service. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Community Service, excuse me. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Community Service, 16 that's who it was, yes. 'Cause they had tractors and 17 lawnmowers and -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: 216th -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly right. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Community Service, yeah. 21 13 hundredths of an acre apparently was lopped off of that 22 1.43 acres. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we need to redraw 24 the agreement. Who's going to do it? Let's do it. 25 MAYOR FINE: The current agreement lease is 7-29-03 jcc 142 1 expired? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: No, it goes through 2004. 3 MAYOR FINE: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Depends on what the City 5 wants us to help pay. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Doesn't have a co-pay 7 provision. 8 MR. HOWARD: No, you look at it as a 9 fifty-fifty grant match. 10 MR. PATTERSON: So, want to us work on that? 11 MAYOR FINE: Yeah. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: What? A new agreement, or 14 paying it? 15 MR. PATTERSON: Either one. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: The latter's my preference, 17 obviously. 18 MAYOR FINE: Oh, us pay? I thought you meant 19 you paying it. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now my question would 21 be -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: You're the ones doing the work 23 on it, remember? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My question would be, 25 who needs to do -- who needs to redraw the agreement? 7-29-03 jcc 143 1 MS. BAILEY: My hourly rate is very low. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think if we're going to 3 redraw the agreement and put some clause provisions there 4 for it being a joint operation, I think the joint operation 5 needs to be based on usage, like we do with kind of Animal 6 Control and some other things, and I don't think it's 7 fifty-fifty with usage right now. I think -- I don't know 8 what it is; 60/40 on special days, it appears, but I'm not 9 sure what the daily usage is. 10 MS. BAILEY: I'm not sure that they keep 11 track of that, no. 'Cause I use it on a regular basis, and 12 I've never had anyone asking me -- 13 MR. PATTERSON: The ratio of residents' 14 participation, special collection events. So, its not 15 daily; this is just the special events is about 40 percent 16 county and 60 percent city. What it is on a day-to-day 17 basis, I don't know if they keep that. 18 MS. BAILEY: They don't. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, just something 20 that -- I mean, maybe we'll -- maybe it will be fifty-fifty 21 we decide upon, but most of these agreements, they're done 22 on usage. 23 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. 24 MAYOR FINE: Well, if the County gets the key 25 someday, maybe you have to just go up a little bit. 7-29-03 jcc 144 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: When we get to use the 2 library bus to pick up stuff in Center Point and Hunt. 3 MAYOR FINE: Yeah. That's -- that works. 4 Library bus doesn't do much right now, does it? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pick up recycling on 6 the way back. 7 MR. PATTERSON: So the direction I'm being 8 given is? I'm getting -- 9 MAYOR FINE: Yeah, draw up a new agreement -- 10 lease, and leave blank the participation. 11 MR. PATTERSON: Okay, I will. 12 MAYOR FINE: I think if we're talking about a 13 whole lot more money, it might be worth really arguing 14 about. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Well, I mean, the other 16 option is we -- if the City or the County -- I mean, if 17 neither one wants to do this particular thing, we just stop 18 right here. I mean, that's part of the -- part of the 19 discussion of, is this worth doing? So -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a fairly 21 worthwhile center to have, and if improvements, you know, 22 are warranted or needed, I think, you know, we ought to 23 figure out how to do them. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. All-righty. 25 MR. KNIPPEL: I'll throw in one more thing 7-29-03 jcc 145 1 here, too. David Vasquez has relayed to me that this is all 2 he foresees in terms of expansion out there for the next 3 couple years. This -- I'd be careful to say that we'll 4 never come back and want to expand it further, but this is 5 sort of it for the time being. Unlike the airport, we've 6 got stuff we're looking at. For growth in '05, '06, and 7 '07, we have a pretty good plan in place. The recycle 8 center is -- we're about maxing out on our benefit return at 9 that facility, for what that information is worth. This -- 10 these improvements give us two entrances and exits in and 11 out of the facility, which helps. We'll be able to take 12 some of the commercial uses we'll just acquire through a 100 13 percent grant from -- I think it was 100 percent or 90/10 14 from AACOG, a new baler, very large commercial-grade baler, 15 where we take large pieces of cardboard and -- and that will 16 be serviced by the slab that's in place and by the 17 overhead -- the new cover. And we'll be able to take some 18 of the heavier users and divert them to the other side of 19 the building, and free up the other lanes for just household 20 stuff. But, anyway, that's kind of a round picture a little 21 bit. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ron? 23 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When do you think that 25 the City budget will come together? 7-29-03 jcc 146 1 MR. PATTERSON: I wish it had been a month 2 ago. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sometime this year? 4 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. No, actually, we 5 have a meeting scheduled right now to present the draft 6 budget for Council consideration on August -- 7 MS. SEKULA: 11. 8 MR. PATTERSON: -- 11. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And all these figures 10 are built in it? 11 MR. PATTERSON: Actually, the -- all of the 12 figures -- well, like, for instance, the discussion we had 13 about moving the airport number over to -- I mean, the 14 Airport Manager over into that fund. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 16 MR. PATTERSON: That number is not in there 17 right now. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Because I didn't want to 20 presume. But we have those numbers; they're available, and 21 yes, we would propose to put these numbers in there and we 22 would like to be able to do that. Part of what the goal 23 tonight would be is to get some direction on, you know, 24 these look good, these don't look good. Now, I know y'all 25 may need some more discussion, that type thing. 7-29-03 jcc 147 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 2 MR. PATTERSON: But before that August 11th 3 meeting, we would need some idea of which ones we want to go 4 with, which ones we don't, those kinds of things. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We may not do any of 6 it, but -- I mean, as long as you understand that, that 7 we -- that we still have some discussions to have. 8 MR. PATTERSON: I understand. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 10 MR. PATTERSON: And bottom line is -- is that 11 we'll -- as you said, those decisions will have to be made, 12 and then we'll, you know, have to respond accordingly. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ten-four. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Next? Okay. Thanks, Paul. 15 Library. Right now, you can see that FY '02, we had 158,000 16 visitors and circulated over 195,000 items. Phase I of the 17 History Center has now been completed. That opened 18 January 27th, 2003. This was a $532,000 project which was 19 funded via grants and city participation, and operational 20 expenses right now are being funded via grants that have 21 been received. The other thing that we have here is -- is 22 that the library A.D.A. improvements have been completed. 23 This was a $308,650 project, with the City and County each 24 funding $40,000 toward that $308,000 project, and E.I.C. 25 funding $228,650. What this project was designed to do 7-29-03 jcc 148 1 specifically, the intent was, before trying to do any 2 expansion to the library, was to insure that the library as 3 it stood was A.D.A.-compliant. I will tell you -- I'm going 4 to stop right here and tell you that we have been approached 5 by the Friends of the Library, who have asked us about 6 accepting -- and, you know, again, this is something for 7 y'all to consider -- accepting a grant from them of -- how 8 much is it? 9 MR. MARTINEZ: $10,000. 10 MR. PATTERSON: $10,000 to do an assessment 11 on perhaps enclosing the balcony areas; in other words, 12 instead of trying to protrude out of the building. But 13 right now you've got a lower and upper balcony area that are 14 just wasted space; nobody ever uses them. If you could 15 enclose that space, that becomes additional floor area for 16 books and shelving, and that is something that they want to 17 do, is come and bring that and ask if we would accept that 18 gift to be able to look and do that study to determine what 19 it would take to do that. In addition to that, we have here 20 the County Outreach Program, as it's been called, the van 21 program, whatever you want to call it. This program, it 22 basically runs approximately five days a week. Once-a-week 23 stops are made at Mountain Home Post Office, American Legion 24 Post at Center Point, the Hunt Store, the Hill Country Arts 25 Foundation at Ingram, the Mini-Mart on Highway 16 in Turtle 7-29-03 jcc 149 1 Creek area, and Camp Verde Store. As of May 31st, '03, 102 2 personal contacts were made at these locations to promote 3 the service. However, 11 persons have requested 42 items, 4 and had them delivered to them, and three new library cards 5 were issued as part of that process. That was a program 6 that was begun last year -- or actually this year, I should 7 say. 8 MAYOR FINE: How much is that van worth? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is now a 10 trash-hauling van. 11 MR. PATTERSON: The van was purchased via 12 a -- a grant from the Friends of the Library. It was -- I 13 think it was $20,000? 21? 14 MR. MARTINEZ: 21? 15 MR. PATTERSON: $21,000. That's there, and 16 then we have an ongoing operational cost of a little over 17 $13,000 a year to keep that going. In addition to that, 18 this year we have an automated library system replacement. 19 There was -- $60,000 is shared by the City and the County 20 costs; that was to be used for the system replacement of the 21 $150,000 participation in the Community Network Grant. That 22 project is -- is underway, and I'll let Antonio speak to 23 that in a little bit more detail, should you wish. Again, 24 that -- that program is underway as well. Right now, you'll 25 see that, with the proposed budget, it's at 851,375 which 7-29-03 jcc 150 1 is -- there is no projected increase in contribution by the 2 City or the County, with a fifty-fifty share in this budget. 3 Any questions? Yes, sir? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the outreach program, 5 Antonio, is it a -- is it going to improve? Or is it a good 6 idea to -- 7 MR. MARTINEZ: I don't foresee that it's 8 going to increase dramatically, at least not in the next 9 five years. Now, I would anticipate small increases, but, 10 you know, that's about what it's going to do. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: By my calculations, 12 an alternative to that would be to buy the books online and 13 ship them Fed Ex to the person who's requesting them, and it 14 would cost less. I see this as a very extravagant program. 15 MR. MARTINEZ: I wouldn't disagree with your 16 analysis. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It puts into -- this 18 extravagant program puts into question the -- the whole 19 library cost. It's one of the very large-cost items in our 20 budget. We have a $97,000 -- 21 MR. PATTERSON: One of the points that was 22 made when this was being discussed was the fact that, with 23 the online services that are available today, reservations 24 can be made online, you know, those type things, as well as 25 inter-loan library -- inter-library loans can also be made 7-29-03 jcc 151 1 online and via phone. Am I correct? 2 MR. MARTINEZ: Right. 3 MR. PATTERSON: So, even if you just have a 4 phone, you can do it as well. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I agree it's 6 not cost-effective. We propose to take back to -- a little 7 bit later, taking it back to what's out there. The number 8 of clients it has attracted, certainly that $13,000 9 expenditure is not cost-effective, but I continue to wonder 10 aloud, has it been promoted to the extent that it needs to 11 be promoted to do that? And I think the number of people 12 who use either this service or the library is a question 13 that has to be examined very carefully. The library as we 14 know it today has tremendous use. It has -- it has the 15 volume of use for a library in square footage twice its 16 size. And I think it's a major question that's going to 17 have to be addressed as to what we're going to do with that 18 facility and whether or not enclosing the balcony is a 19 sufficient answer. I really don't know, because it 20 generates a lot -- a lot of traffic. And, certainly, that 21 $13,000 that we've spent hasn't taken any pressure off the 22 library; that's for certain. 23 MR. PATTERSON: No. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But if it's to be 25 discontinued, it can be discontinued, but I don't think it's 7-29-03 jcc 152 1 been promoted to the extent that it has -- that it could 2 have been or should be to generate the kind of traffic that 3 it should get. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Well, I mean, we will be glad 5 to go back and do some -- you know, some additional 6 advertising and additional locations, and also would be very 7 open to suggestions as well. 8 MR. MARTINEZ: May I summarize what we've 9 done? 10 MR. PATTERSON: Sure. 11 MR. MARTINEZ: We did two complete rounds of 12 newspaper stories to -- about three months apart. We have 13 gone to every business establishment in the area and 14 blanketed every business with brochures and posters. The 15 Library Advisory Board took it upon themselves to take out 16 about, oh, 50 brochures also that they handed to different 17 areas. And we have handed out about 200 handouts at the 18 library itself. It's also posted on our web site, and we've 19 also called by telephone every person that has contacted us 20 and done follow-up with every single one of them. So, 21 that's the extent of advertising we've done on it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I tend to agree with 23 Commissioner Nicholson. I mean, I think, with the other 24 options available today, and the way people travel, I just 25 don't think it's a necessary -- since dollars are as tight 7-29-03 jcc 153 1 as they are, I think the program can be cut. 2 MR. MARTINEZ: One other thing I will point 3 out, that the figures that you heard quoted, that only 4 addresses how many books people ask for. There are numerous 5 other services we provide. Ron mentioned inter-library 6 loan, and also just reference questions over the phone or 7 photocopy pages, or any other variety of services that might 8 have occurred that would not be a part of this column. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And also, if you could 10 briefly address or speak about the automated library system 11 replacement, what that project means? 12 MR. MARTINEZ: That is to completely replace 13 the current system, which dates back to the '70's and is in 14 the process of being completely dropped by the vendor. That 15 system is not viable for the future. It will not be 16 upgraded; it will not be improved in any shape or form, and 17 will -- in the very near future, will be dropped by the 18 vendor. 19 MR. PATTERSON: So, you know that the system 20 that we have in place today is one that has been used by a 21 lot of libraries around, but as he said, it's being phased 22 out by the company, won't be supported any more, so 23 unfortunately there's a lot -- 24 MR. MARTINEZ: It's what you would call a 25 DOS-based system, and there are no DOS-based systems out 7-29-03 jcc 154 1 there in library land anywhere any more. Or in any other 2 government agencies, for that matter. 3 MR. PATTERSON: That's only in our dispatch. 4 MR. DICKERSON: That you talked about. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The 30,000 City and 6 County, is that included in the 287,000? 7 MR. MARTINEZ: Actually, that would be a 8 carry-over from last year's budget, so it would not be part 9 of the current split. 10 MR. PATTERSON: That was from, actually, the 11 year prior to -- the grant took longer to come to fruition 12 than we thought it would. 13 MR. MARTINEZ: What happened is the 14 automation marketplace changed dramatically. We had a draft 15 proposal ready to go to take to vendors, and then we had 16 several companies merge, and so several companies completely 17 disappeared from the marketplace. I think it's going to 18 work out to our advantage, but we've had to redo what we're 19 presenting to the vendors, so we're at that stage of 20 preparing a second round. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the 30 -- but the 22 30,000 already -- you already have the money? 23 MR. MARTINEZ: It's in the budget. 24 MR. PATTERSON: It's already there. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a similar 7-29-03 jcc 155 1 question; my kind of annual, standard question. I remember 2 several years ago, we budgeted for a new elevator, and it 3 took us a couple of years to actually get the thing 4 installed. Is it installed? 5 MR. MARTINEZ: Yes, sir. Installed, 6 operational, inspected, everything. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I don't know if 8 septic tanks or that elevator's going to put me in my grave, 9 but it's going to be one of the two. But my question -- 10 septic tanks. My question is, the -- and it seems like that 11 our share of the elevator was 30 grand, maybe, or something 12 like that. I can't remember; somewhere around there. But 13 my question is, once we spent the money and installed the 14 elevator, did that 30 grand come out of the budget? 15 MR. MARTINEZ: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It did? 17 MR. MARTINEZ: It was not charged back to the 18 County again, if that's your question. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is exactly my 20 question. 21 MR. PATTERSON: The way we do -- so you 22 understand, the way we do our budget is all capital items 23 show up as a one-time expense. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fantastic. 25 MR. PATTERSON: And then that dollar -- then 7-29-03 jcc 156 1 that dollar amount rolls into a pro -- what we call project 2 accounting; it's pulled out. Goes into the project 3 accounting. That number is locked until it's spent, but it 4 does not roll back into the base budget. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fabulous. Thank you 6 very much. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, very welcome. 8 Other questions? Okay. 9 MAYOR FINE: I guess I got one thing. Are we 10 all kind of in agreement about the -- the County Outreach 11 Program? Or -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Far as I'm concerned, 13 if you can't promote to it a greater extent and make it 14 happen, take it out. 15 MAYOR FINE: Well, you may not be able to 16 make it happen no matter how much you promote it. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could be. Take it 18 out. 19 MR. BROWN: I would say if that's the 20 conclusion we're going to reach, then we need to make a 21 subsequent decision; i.e., what do we do with that van that 22 the Friends of the Library funded? And -- and that 23 operation. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's true. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How much trash bags 7-29-03 jcc 157 1 will it hold? 2 MAYOR FINE: It'll hold a lot of bottles. 3 MR. BROWN: I'm not saying where it ought to 4 go, but I'm saying -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's up to them, 6 really. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, there's a good 8 possibility they could use it, because they do book sales, 9 all sorts of things like that. 10 MR. BROWN: Maybe. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Turn it back to them; 12 they gave it. I would think -- 13 MAYOR FINE: I guess we need to -- 14 MR. TUNE: That's the only vehicle the 15 library has. They have no other vehicles for any other use 16 that they have. 17 MAYOR FINE: So, I guess we would need to 18 talk to them about that. 19 MR. BROWN: Whatever. 20 MAYOR FINE: They may not have a need for it. 21 MR. MARTINEZ: It wasn't a Friends 22 contribution. It was a variety of other contributions. 23 MR. BROWN: Well, whoever. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 25 MAYOR FINE: No need to talk about -- 7-29-03 jcc 158 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The funds probably should 2 go into the library at some point, if it's sold, something 3 like that. It should -- ought to stay with library fund; 4 that's what it was donated for. 5 MR. BROWN: If the Friends got a use for it, 6 we could transfer some funds or something. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 8 MR. PATTERSON: That's -- we'll go -- 9 MAYOR FINE: We'll find a use. 10 MR. PATTERSON: I will find out exactly what 11 all was contributed to it. We'll go from there, how it 12 should be handled. 13 MR. SMITH: It's -- are any libraries 14 anywhere self-supporting? 15 MR. PATTERSON: None that I know of, sir. 16 MR. SMITH: Just some -- okay. It's just a 17 public service. 18 MR. PATTERSON: Any questions? Quite 19 frankly, when you look at libraries, parks and recreation, 20 things like that, in the city managers' circles, there is 21 this thing that they call unfunded mandatory services. And 22 so -- or I should say non self-supporting mandatory 23 services. Parks and recreation, libraries, those kinds of 24 things. 25 MR. SMITH: Just wondering. 7-29-03 jcc 159 1 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. Next item is Animal 2 Control. Pups and cats. This is an item that is managed by 3 the County with the contract with the City for provision of 4 services. Under this, the County provides and oversees the 5 Animal Control service, and the City contracts with the 6 County for such services on a formula basis, and the formula 7 basis is somewhat complicated. But the bottom line is that 8 this is for proration of all of those services. At this 9 point in time, there is a -- there is a request that there 10 be an increase to this of about $7,500. So -- excuse me, 11 $4,500. And, basically, the City would be at -- Animal 12 Control, total of $202,000, and that would be a County share 13 of about 127, with the City at $75,788 would be our total 14 cost, based on that formula. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ron, would you run 16 those numbers one more time, please? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. What we have is an 18 estimate. And, again, we were kind of shooting at a target 19 here a little bit, but what the total budget is on that, I'm 20 not -- I'm not for sure what the County request is, to be 21 quite frank with you, totally. I think -- yes, I am; it's 22 right here. It is -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: 199. 24 MR. PATTERSON: That number, right? 25 MR. BROWN: 202,000? 7-29-03 jcc 160 1 MR. PATTERSON: No, that's showing 199,928. 2 We may have a bust here. Okay. I think the numbers on the 3 spreadsheet are correct. If you would look at this 4 spreadsheet, let's get that one. If you'll look on this 5 spreadsheet, these numbers are correct with regard to Animal 6 Control. 7 MR. BROOKS: They're also correct in this 8 section as well. 9 MR. PATTERSON: And it's correct in the book 10 behind Tab 10. The slide is just -- we missed it on the 11 slide. The Animal Control contract that you can see, it 12 shows that the County has a projected cost of $124,140. 13 That's a $7,500 increase over last year for them. And then 14 there's a $75,788 number for FY '04 for the City, which is a 15 $4,500 increase there. And that totals the bottom -- down 16 at the bottom, FY '04, the projected budget of $199,928, 17 which is what we have reflected on the County spreadsheet. 18 That formula basis is pretty interesting, too, with regard 19 to -- it basically works out where, if Animal Control has 20 calculated that 40 percent of that contract is allocated to 21 the City, then there is the Animal Shelter itself, and then 22 you've been -- basically, 40 percent of the Animal Shelter, 23 less city sewer and water line contract. That's actually on 24 the second page of -- there's a summary sheet that says 25 Animal Control. Then right behind it says Kerr County 7-29-03 jcc 161 1 Animal Control budget '03-'04, and that's what was submitted 2 to us by the staff over at the Animal Control facility. 3 MR. HOWARD: Ron, is that 40 percent based on 4 usage, or how was that -- how does that come about? Someone 5 from the County might be able to answer that. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe originally, it 7 was usage. 8 MR. DICKERSON: When the contract was first 9 done, that's what it went by. The formula first came up 10 with -- 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I believe the 12 current data is kind of a mirror -- flip-flop of that. 13 About 60 percent of the activity is in the city limits, and 14 about 40 percent in the county. I don't know if there's 15 other factors to be considered there or not. 16 MAYOR FINE: I think there would be other 17 factors involved. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We've been talking 19 quite a bit at the -- at the Commissioners Court level and 20 with the Animal Control and vets and other people, and it's 21 unanimous, about ways to do a better job of that and be more 22 cost-effective. And there are some ideas there that have 23 got -- that have some good possibilities that we can 24 increase revenues. And it's sort of a philosophical 25 discussion right now. Should it be sort of a user pays -- 7-29-03 jcc 162 1 should we make a major effort to enroll more people in 2 registering their dogs? I think our current compliance with 3 the law right now is probably less than 10 percent, maybe 4 only 5 percent. So, there are some possibilities about 5 increasing the revenues for Animal Control. It's one of 6 those things I -- I think could never be self-funded, but 7 you might make some major improvements in the amount of 8 revenues coming in from fees. 9 MR. BROWN: If you were tougher on your 10 enforcements, then revenues would go up. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, two things. 12 One, our fee schedule is probably out-of-date. We did some 13 surveys; we're probably on the low end, probably the lowest 14 on the fees. And there's various ramifications of that. If 15 you raise your fees, do you get less compliance? We don't 16 know. But, certainly, we don't have a high rate of 17 compliance. It's almost like if that's the best compliance 18 you can get, do you need the law? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My only question is, 20 Chief, do you get more complaints. Or, you know, how -- how 21 are things between -- 22 MR. DICKERSON: They're great. We get very 23 little complaints any more. I did get a complaint today, 24 but it was from somebody that lives in Ingram, and it was an 25 Ingram city problem, so -- so I called them. 7-29-03 jcc 163 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ingram calls you too? 2 MR. DICKERSON: Well, yeah, just depending -- 3 depends on -- everybody likes to call the Chief of Police. 4 I guess they don't know there's a marshal there in Ingram. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I get his home 6 number, please? 7 MR. DICKERSON: But, no, the Animal Control 8 has really been doing a great job. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. 10 MR. DICKERSON: We don't have near the 11 complaints we used to have. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good deal. That's 13 good news. 14 MR. DICKERSON: Yeah. With that, I'll say 15 good night. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Better hang around. We may 17 put that building in somebody else's lap. 18 MR. DICKERSON: Fire Chief won't let me have 19 it anyway, probably. 20 MR. PATTERSON: Neither one of you are going 21 to get it. (Laughter.) Are there any other questions on 22 that item? Okay. The next item is for tax collection. 23 Currently, the proposed budget that we received was 24 approximately $588,919 total for the budget, the County's 25 share of that being $525,013; the City's share, $63,906. 7-29-03 jcc 164 1 These figures that -- the 525, don't reflect if there is any 2 offset from -- from other agencies for collection or for -- 3 you know, and, again, this is an estimate, 'cause y'all 4 haven't set your budget yet. This is what we understand is 5 being requested. The backup data here, the County Tax 6 Collector provides all billing/collection services for the 7 County and the City. Contribution level depends on total 8 property collections and values. 1 percent of the total 9 collection is retained for tax collection services. So, 10 basically, its 1 percent of whatever is collected is paid. 11 Pretty simple. If there's any questions? That concludes 12 the formal part. Yes, sir? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just want to go 14 back -- I forgot to make a mention to everybody with regard 15 to the library contract. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think there are 18 some things in here that need to be addressed, and it too 19 needs to be brought up to speed. 20 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There is some 22 language in it that I think needs to be looked at, 23 particularly in terms of Paragraph 4, how it depicts the 24 membership and the makeup of the board. I think it needs to 25 be brought up to date. Paragraphs 5 and 6 need to be 7-29-03 jcc 165 1 addressed in terms of just the very process that we're in 2 right now, the budget process. That is long out-of-date. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, it is. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And so I think that 5 would be one we need to take a look at also. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. I'm sorry, I got 5 and 7 6. What was the other one? Number 4? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 4. 4, 5 and 6. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Also, Commissioner Williams 10 had mentioned to me -- and that's something I failed to say 11 on the airport issue as well, and that was the fact that 12 there -- there had been some discussion when we were talking 13 about the makeup of the Airport Board and the possibility 14 of, you know, having these additional authorities and also, 15 you know, doing the interlocal agreement, et cetera. One of 16 the options that was discussed was expanding that board from 17 its current membership of five to seven, and having one 18 member be a Commissioner and another member be a 19 Councilmember, and that was something that was discussed. 20 It sort of addresses part of what you were talking about 21 with regard to elected officials and get some of theme 22 seated at the table. So, that's something -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They would be voting 24 members of the board. 25 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct, sir. Instead 7-29-03 jcc 166 1 of ex-officio's. Sorry, I had to get an alibi there. That 2 concludes the formal agendized items with regard to those 3 items that we're currently participating in. On the agenda, 4 there are a couple of items for further discussion. I -- 5 you know, with the hour, I don't know if you want to discuss 6 those now or have another joint meeting, or go ahead and 7 press on. Do you want me to press on? I can open them up 8 for discussion. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Press on. 10 MAYOR FINE: Press on. 11 MR. PATTERSON: Press on, okay. One of the 12 issues is that something that we had discussed actually two 13 years ago, about the potential of possibly utilizing or 14 doing something joint venture on our Municipal Court. At 15 that point in time, the discussion was, well, perhaps we 16 could take our Municipal Court and somehow blend it with the 17 County Court so that, you know, we're more efficient, you 18 know, those types of things. Quite frankly, in our court, 19 we're out of space. We run into problems all the time with 20 the number of defendants, et cetera, people in the court. 21 At that time a couple years ago when this discussion was 22 brought forward, it was revolving around the concept of 23 combining the courts and those type things. What we ran 24 into in that analysis was the jurisdictional issues, you 25 know, municipal judges versus county judges, et cetera. All 7-29-03 jcc 167 1 kinds of legal issues. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably 3 constitutional issues. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So 5 we're not sure that we can get over that hump, if we ever 6 could. With that said, one of the things -- additional 7 thoughts that has come up since then was just the -- the 8 general idea of -- I know that the Court has, you know, now 9 got a beautiful new building, courtroom space, that type 10 thing. One of the things that we didn't know if the 11 Commissioners would even entertain was, you know, some sort 12 of an arrangement where, if we could go into and lease some 13 space for specified periods of time, to use the courtrooms 14 during our court periods. How often do we -- do we meet 15 right now? Is it every two weeks? 16 MR. HAYES: Day and a half every two weeks. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. So, about a day and a 18 half every two weeks, so that's a couple times a month. And 19 so it's really about three days total over -- over a month, 20 and it's something that -- you know, again, there's no 21 formal proposal for you or anything. We really didn't want 22 to go any further until we just threw the idea out to see if 23 it was something even reasonable. What that would mean 24 is -- is that, you know, staff would go in, judge would sit. 25 You know, the court staff that are -- we have now would 7-29-03 jcc 168 1 still support that judge, and then leave. There would be no 2 support staff required or anything else. Just space. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, that's -- that 4 sounds good. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That sounds very workable 6 to me. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just -- you know, 8 it's a silly question, but can a city function -- I guess, 9 can a city office function in the county facility? Well, 10 they -- you do all the time; I've seen you over there doing 11 that. Sure, I think that would be a good one. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Also, there's the 13 courtroom in the jail, which I don't know the -- Bill may 14 know how much that's used by J.P. 2. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think she regularly 16 uses it on Monday. But there may be -- there may be space 17 available and time available. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that's a large 19 courtroom. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good looking 21 courtroom in the -- it belongs to J.P. 2. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir, in the law 23 enforcement facility. 24 MR. HAYES: We've actually used that 25 courtroom a couple times when we've had incarcerated 7-29-03 jcc 169 1 defendants -- tried them. 2 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. 3 MS. BAILEY: Ron, one of the considerations 4 to -- to keep in mind is that a lot of times, particularly 5 juvenile court goes substantially after 5 o'clock, and one 6 of the problems I foresee with utilizing the main courthouse 7 is that it does -- it does close at some point. So, that 8 might be a consideration. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Well, and again, I had 10 thought about that, that -- you know, if some sort of an 11 arrangement were made, that perhaps there's, you know, 12 someone at that hour to lock the building, or whether -- you 13 know, and, again, use one entrance instead of all of them. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Custodial staff on 15 duty. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have staff there. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Some way to resolve that, 18 whether it's the main courts or court or whatever. The 19 bottom line is -- is I'm just throwing something out on the 20 table to discuss and say that we'd be open to, you know, 21 just discussing pretty much any option, if -- if y'all are. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree we ought to 23 talk about it. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Okay, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The possibility. 7-29-03 jcc 170 1 MR. PATTERSON: All right. We will -- we'll 2 sit down, think through, look at our schedule and that kind 3 of stuff, 'cause we'd have to make sure we didn't interfere 4 with any of the court schedules, obviously. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have -- you know, 6 we have the two big courtrooms in the district courts, we 7 have our courtroom, there's Judge Brown's courtroom, the one 8 out at the jail, and we have court coordinators that 9 schedule those rooms, and they're not full all the time. I 10 bet they could -- I bet that's a workable deal, if you can 11 work around the guy here. Use ours. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Okay, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's better than the 14 original proposal, I can tell you that. 15 MR. PATTERSON: It's a lot simpler, too. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Don't have the legal issues 18 that you potentially have to get resolved. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. And we were never 20 going to get there. I mean, we figured that out pretty 21 quick. So, okay. Well, what I will do is, you know, we'll 22 try and put something together, sit down and talk -- and 23 I'll contact the Judge and see, you know, what we might be 24 able to do. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I probably should keep my 7-29-03 jcc 171 1 mouth shut, but we probably have, at least on a short-term, 2 medium term, space in the -- in the annex that's unfinished. 3 If he needed a -- you know, any kind of a small office or 4 something, there's probably room in there in the courthouse 5 annex. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He is going too far. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: You're right. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just strike all of 9 that. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm trying to get them 11 to -- I figure they'll finish out the space for us, then 12 we'll get it back in a few years. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: As a matter of fact, down in 14 that one storage area, there's the old district court bench. 15 It's disassembled, but it's down there. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 17 MR. PATTERSON: I'm sorry, sir? What was 18 that? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Down in one of our 20 climate-controlled storage areas, the old district court 21 bench, the reporter and witness area and clerk area, it's 22 disassembled, but it's down there. We've still got that 23 intact. And the jury screen, the whole thing basically. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're prevented by 25 Historical Commission from getting rid of it. We didn't 7-29-03 jcc 172 1 want to anyway, but we were prevented from doing it if we 2 did want to. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Understood. Okay. Well, 4 we'll -- you know, again, because I'm not intimately 5 familiar with what's available, what's not, what -- and 6 actually even what our demand numbers would be in terms of 7 how many people and that kind of stuff, we'll do all that 8 homework before we come back, okay? Last item that's on the 9 agenda is application/administration of Subdivision Rules 10 and Regulations within ETJ of the city of Kerrville. This 11 was an item that the Commissioners had requested to be put 12 on there, and so I'm not prepared to speak to it. I thought 13 if y'all could bring that forward, I do have our -- our 14 Interim Planning Division Manager here. We have discussed 15 this issue, and -- you know, but I thought perhaps I'd put 16 it on the table. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was -- I asked that it 18 be put on the agenda, and the reason was, at our last 19 meeting we discussed this, and more in reference to the new 20 law that requires cities and counties to have one set of 21 rules in the ETJ. When we discussed -- I think it was last 22 year, when we first discussed it, the City was going through 23 their long-range planning and rewriting their rules, and it 24 was kind of put on semi-hold until that was done. And also, 25 I believe there was new legislation that has also postponed 7-29-03 jcc 173 1 the deadline for making us implement it, but even -- you 2 know, in my opinion, we should move forward as fast as we 3 can. I think the City's getting close to finalizing, as I 4 understand it, their new ordinances, and the County's going 5 to do a slight -- or is in the process of doing a slight 6 modification to our Subdivision Rules. So, I think, you 7 know, from the constituent standpoint, we need to get this 8 done A.S.A.P. We've had several, in the past year, people 9 that have had to -- very minor issues and revising plats, 10 and a great deal of money, a great deal of headache to do 11 something that should have been much simpler. So, I just 12 think it's a good time to get it done. And, really, what I 13 was hoping to get out of the meeting tonight is just a 14 direction or an agreement as to whether -- which entity is 15 going to be the administering entity. Not where -- and I 16 think details about, you know, the roads and all that stuff 17 would be worked out to make sure that they're in compliance 18 with each other. 19 But, you know, I thought about it quite a 20 bit, and I think that it is better for the County to be the 21 administrator of the -- in the ETJ, for the main reason that 22 the ETJ -- the City now has gotten so big that there are 23 large areas that are, in my mind, never going to be annexed, 24 especially if you go out Cypress Creek Road, Turtle Creek, 25 you know, areas like that, due to the annexation of the 7-29-03 jcc 174 1 airport and Whiskey Canyon, Comanche Trace, huge areas, and 2 the ETJ may expand 2 miles in the not-too-distant future. 3 So, to me, it's just that the City's rules are a little -- 4 tend to be a little more onerous, more requirements in it, 5 and I just think it's unnecessary to have county residents 6 have to meet some of those requirements. And I think it's 7 easier, as long as we can come to an agreement on basically 8 road construction, right-of-way issues. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. I've had an 10 opportunity to -- to review your current Subdivision 11 Regulations and our current -- as well as our U.D.C. that's 12 being developed right now, and I would say this; that with 13 regard to those areas where, you know -- you know, you're 14 not going to be there, that's one issue, but in the ETJ 15 areas where we're not that far on the horizon for 16 annexation, I do foresee some issues. Because when I review 17 the two, we do see things like, with regard to cul-de-sac 18 length -- and I can give you a list. I mean, it's a fairly 19 lengthy list of where we have differences that are very 20 important to us with regard to fire, EMS, you know, police 21 services, addressing, you know, a lot of things that we 22 have, and even some of our drainage issues, that they don't 23 match up. 24 And what I would foresee is -- is that, in 25 short order, in those areas where we do annex, you know, 7-29-03 jcc 175 1 we're living with a problem that we felt like should have 2 been managed with regard to those rules and regulations 3 that, you know, meet. 'Cause we've got, you know, 4 stormwater management issues and all kind of things that are 5 coming upon us shortly. You're going to have those, too. 6 But we have, in some cases, additional requirements because 7 of our population. And, in addition to that, we also just 8 have some standards that, if we're going to annex that area 9 in any short order anyway, as I said, not -- not 25 or 30 10 years away, we would like to be able to insure that this ETJ 11 development occurs in accordance with those standards, so 12 think I think if we can come to some agreement over those, 13 that -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there -- I think 15 there are probably fewer areas like that, though there 16 clearly are some. And I don't know if the legislation gives 17 the ability to have two sets of rules in the ETJ. I 18 suspect -- 19 MR. HAYES: It does, actually. The -- let me 20 just jump in here, too. It actually allows these two bodies 21 to get together to formulate an agreement to either give 22 exclusive jurisdiction to the County, exclusive jurisdiction 23 to the City, apportion part of the ETJ to each, or develop 24 one set of rules that's going to apply to the whole ETJ. 25 So, that -- you know, that's going to be kind of the initial 7-29-03 jcc 176 1 consideration, which way these -- this body wants to go. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- anyway, and I 3 think that's the -- the first step. We need to figure out 4 how we're going to administer -- or divide the ETJ or 5 administer the ETJ, and then get those -- you know, if it's 6 going to be the County or City or joint, or split it up; get 7 the -- you know, the two legal staffs to start working on 8 the way to get it done. And I -- 'cause, to me, that issue 9 is probably harder and more important than getting the 10 details -- I mean, cul-de-sac lengths, all that, those can 11 be resolved. I don't have a whole lot of worry about that. 12 Just the -- I see a lot more difficulty in the first one, of 13 getting the -- the framework set up, and I just think we 14 need to move forward on that. And I think, you know, my 15 goal would be, certainly, by the end of this year, to have 16 this done, the end of this calendar year. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm in total agreement 18 with Commissioner Letz' comments. My question -- my 19 question is a legal question. Can -- I mean, and I just 20 don't understand -- I don't like ETJ. I think the city 21 stops here and the county starts; it's just simple for me. 22 But I don't understand the ETJ program. Can you require 23 people to do -- to comply with city regs or city rules, 24 whatever it is, in -- in property that's not even in the 25 city? 7-29-03 jcc 177 1 MR. HAYES: Yes, with respect to subdivision. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a horrible law. 3 That is terrible. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Well, the rationale behind it 5 was that the reason you even have an ETJ is for planning 6 purposes. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 8 MR. PATTERSON: And the idea is -- is that, 9 in that period, those are the areas that are most imminent 10 for annexation, is the way the -- if you read the -- the 11 legislative intent behind the law. And in those most 12 imminent areas, they're saying, well, it doesn't make sense 13 that -- if you're going to have these standards, you want 14 your network of water, sewer, streets and everything to fit 15 together, that it makes sense that those subdivision 16 regulations would apply. That's -- again, I'm just telling 17 you what the legislative intent was, not -- you know. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the intent makes 19 sense. But the way cities grow, huge areas get pulled into 20 the ETJ, that there's no contemplation of being put into the 21 city limits in the near future. That's the problem that I 22 have with it. I think county residents have -- I mean, it's 23 just not going to happen with some of these areas in 24 probably our lifetimes. But, I mean, clearly -- I mean, if 25 you're, you know, right on the -- you know, right on the 7-29-03 jcc 178 1 other side of a new high school, yeah, that area's probably 2 going to get developed; I think that area maybe needs to be 3 treated a little bit differently, maybe a different set of 4 rules. In areas where subdivisions are going to likely pop 5 up, that area should be treated possibly differently than, 6 you know, areas along lower Turtle Creek that are -- you 7 know. 8 MAYOR FINE: I guess the only problem I see 9 is, we don't know exactly where these areas are going to be. 10 'Cause, like, the entire Whiskey Canyon Ranch, you know, I 11 know when I came on Council, I could see the lower part 12 becoming part of the city. I mean, obviously, we were right 13 there, but it -- I didn't see 800 acres of it coming in at 14 one time. So, really, it's hard to foresee. And we look at 15 sub -- at development like The Summit, how that's growing 16 and taking over that entire hill up there. I don't know 17 anyone besides Andy Phillips who saw that happening, you 18 know. And he's made it happen, you know. His -- his vision 19 did happen up there. But, you know, you look at some of the 20 ranches right behind that. I think the Whelan Ranch borders 21 the back of The Summit property, and, you know, if you talk 22 to some people, they may say, you know, that's never going 23 to happen, but I'm sure it's like everything else. If the 24 price was right, some of these areas that we don't feel like 25 would ever be developed might. 7-29-03 jcc 179 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 2 MAYOR FINE: I mean, we can use our best 3 guess. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, I tend 5 to agree. I mean, like the Whelan property, yes, that's 6 pretty close in. But what about Deedee Faltin? You don't 7 even know where he lives. He lives so far back on Cypress 8 Creek Road, it ain't going to happen. 9 MAYOR FINE: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And so I think you -- you 11 just have to do -- you have to look at it. And, clearly, 12 the City has the ability to annex properties, and when you 13 annex, it's in the city limits, and it's clearly the City's 14 responsibility then. I just think that we need to look at 15 it. And, you know, if the law gives as much flexibility as 16 it sounds like it does, we can, best we can, come up with a 17 set of rules that works. And we can always modify it. I'm 18 sure, once it's done, we can modify -- the ETJ's going to 19 get modified as the City annexes. It's kind of a living 20 document. But I think the basic framework can be set down. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, I'm 22 ambivalent about what the rules are, who administers it. I, 23 frankly, don't care. But the case that was documented in 24 the newspaper in a letter to the editor of a citizen who, I 25 believe, was abused by having to jump through all the hoops 7-29-03 jcc 180 1 of both systems, and even Commissioner Baldwin couldn't 2 straighten it out for him, that's got to stop. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We can't be treating 5 people like that. 6 MR. MENZIES: If I can jump in, I was 7 thinking of not that particular case, but I've seen it a 8 couple times where you guys are talking about how to go 9 about this, where the City has -- you know, let the City do 10 it all by itself or let the County do it all by itself, or 11 have, you know, the same set of rules for both apply. I 12 think that, using that example, taking three months for a 13 simple residential replat to go through both the city and 14 the county, that's way too long. I think that should be the 15 number one issue. I think there needs to be one set of 16 rules. We need to decide whether it's the City only or 17 County only. That's really my biggest reservation, is that, 18 I mean, that three months that -- you know, I think that's 19 the second time since I've been here that we've had a 20 process like that; we've had a residential replat where both 21 entities are required to -- both entities are required to 22 make public notification. It just really stretches out. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll be glad -- I mean, 24 from the County's standpoint, I've kind of been the point 25 person on these rules. I'll be glad to meet with whoever 7-29-03 jcc 181 1 with the City, you know, Council or staff to get, you know, 2 a plan presented. I just think it's something we need to 3 do, you know, sooner rather than later. And I think, 4 certainly, our rules are both in order enough that we can 5 proceed full speed ahead on it. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. 7 MR. MENZIES: You're not going to reduce the 8 expense that much, I think, going through us. I think in 9 the -- in that example, it costs an extra $180 on top of the 10 $500 to get our expense, but I think it's the time that is 11 most important. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm wondering also -- 13 it's been a while since I read that law, but it seemed like, 14 to me, in there somewhere that it -- like, if -- if you were 15 going to make the decision of either County or City, that 16 you need to choose the one with the most stringent rules. 17 MS. BAILEY: Looking at the same rules, 18 though, it's not going to make any difference if we modify 19 our rules. 20 MAYOR FINE: But each one's stringent in 21 different areas. I think y'all's road makeup is more 22 stringent than ours. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 24 MAYOR FINE: But our drainage is more 25 stringent. 7-29-03 jcc 182 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. We're not going 2 to require sidewalks on the Faltin Ranch. 3 MAYOR FINE: We don't in the ETJ, but -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not trying to be 5 funny. Just -- there's a difference. 6 MAYOR FINE: No, I know. Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, but the authority 8 also -- it also goes back to the City and the County have 9 different authorities, I think. You know, we don't have 10 authority to do things that you do, and vice-versa, so there 11 becomes an issue as to who's more stringent. Because some 12 things, we just can't make them do it, whether we want to or 13 not, where the City may have that authority; I don't know. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, that may become the 15 decision point. You go, "We want that," but -- 16 MAYOR FINE: What about the counties and the 17 cities comparable to ours? We can't be the only county in 18 the state that has this issue. What have they come up with? 19 MR. HAYES: A lot of cities and counties are 20 just like us; they didn't get off the mat and do anything 21 because there was really no penalty provision in the 22 legislation that was passed in 2001, so now folks are faced 23 with this issue, and you either have to get in line by 2004, 24 or, like us, you have to get in line by 2006, or there's an 25 arbitration process, and you actually have to, you know, go 7-29-03 jcc 183 1 before an arbitrator who will essentially decide. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Even more important than 3 that, it's the right thing to do. For that reason, we need 4 to get it done. 5 MAYOR FINE: Well, I guess the first thing we 6 need to do is sit down with maybe a spreadsheet or a list of 7 some kind and see what the differences are, and start trying 8 to work down and just see how far apart we truly are. That 9 might be the first place to start, before we start picking 10 who's going to do what. I mean -- 11 MR. PATTERSON: You certainly need to know 12 what rules you're going to be enforcing. Doesn't matter 13 who's enforcing; you got to know that. 14 MAYOR FINE: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, do you want me to get 16 with Ron? Do you have a start-up list? 17 MAYOR FINE: Either Ron -- 18 MR. PATTERSON: I got a list over here of 19 stuff. 20 MAYOR FINE: Either Ron or Paul, one of the 21 two. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll get with Ron and 23 whoever else Ron wants to meet with, start it going. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Is there anything we 25 can do in the interim of another citizen comes up and just 7-29-03 jcc 184 1 wants to draw a line, divide a piece of property? Could -- 2 could one -- either the City or County waive their 3 participation in the process? 4 MAYOR FINE: I don't think we legally can 5 just waive it, can we? 6 MR. HAYES: Not under our current ordinance, 7 we can't. 8 MAYOR FINE: I don't think we could if we 9 wanted to. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We probably could. I 11 don't think that's going to happen, but -- 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Easier to ask 13 forgiveness than it is to ask permission. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all I had. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Are there any other items? 16 Obviously, what our goal here will be to is eventually work 17 through the sheet, know what the numbers are going to be so 18 that they can be plugged into both budgets. That's what 19 it's all designed to do. I know it's been a very long 20 meeting, but I appreciate your diligence and your patience, 21 and thank you very much. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Ron. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Ron. 24 MR. PATTERSON: I would also ask you that 25 if -- if there is data that you're not getting, if there's 7-29-03 jcc 185 1 something that you feel like we're not giving you, if 2 there's something that we've done wrong or you want 3 different, please let me know. And we only do it once a 4 year, this particular process, but we're always trying to 5 improve our processes. So, if there's something else that 6 you need, or if there's something that we haven't given you 7 in the past or tonight, please let us know. We'll be glad 8 to take that constructive criticism, make those changes. We 9 want to make sure you get what you need. Other than that, 10 you know, we -- again, as I said, we're shooting for 11 August 11th, trying to draw the budget together be able to 12 put together. So, any feedback we can receive, or 13 vice-versa, the other way around, I'll meet with Council and 14 try and put anything together and feed that back to you in 15 case there's anything there. Other than that, again, I 16 thank you very much. I appreciate it. Hope the meal was 17 okay. And, thank y'all; appreciate your participation. 18 Thank y'all. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate your hospitality 20 and your willingness to take the time to go over these 21 issues with us. We appreciate it. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. Thank you. 23 MAYOR FINE: Thank y'all for coming. Is 24 there anyone who does not wish to adjourn? It's unanimous; 25 we're out of here. 7-29-03 jcc 186 1 JUDGE TINLEY: We stand adjourned. 2 (Joint City Council and Commissioners Court meeting adjourned at 8:55 p.m.) 3 - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 6 STATE OF TEXAS | 7 COUNTY OF KERR | 8 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 9 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 10 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 11 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 12 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 11th day of August, 13 2003. 14 15 16 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 17 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 18 Certified Shorthand Reporter 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 7-29-03 jcc