1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Budget Workshop 10 Friday, August 15, 2003 11 10:30 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X August 15, 2003 2 PAGE Budget Workshop: 3 Overview 3 4 County Judge 22 5 County Court 29 6 Commissioners Court 31 7 Collections 41 8 Volunteer Fire Departments 59 9 Health Department 67 10 County-Sponsored (Economic Development) 78 11 Nondepartmental -- 12 Permanent Improvements (Youth Exhibit Center) 82 13 Parks 89 14 City/County 98 15 County-Sponsored 109 16 Maintenance 124 17 Sheriff's Department 135 18 Adjourned 232 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 3 1 On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 10:30 a.m., a budget 2 workshop of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll call to order the 8 Commissioners Court workshop scheduled for this date at 9 10:30 a.m. It's a minute or so after 10:30. The purpose of 10 today's workshop is for budget discussion in accordance with 11 the schedule that was previously posted. I understand that 12 there may, because of availability of some people, have to 13 be some adjustments or changes, but we're going to try and 14 follow it as best we can, subject to the availability of 15 people. It was indicated when the workshops were set that 16 some of the members of the Court may want to make some 17 general or preliminary comments or statements, so at this 18 point, I'll go to that particular aspect of it. 19 Commissioner 1? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. The only 21 comment I have to make is a small report from the conference 22 I just returned from last night. You know, you go to those 23 meetings and listen to those lawyers -- excuse me, listen to 24 those guys talk for -- actually, democrat lawyers on top of 25 that -- for hours. And you can -- you know, you grab ahold 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 4 1 of every 18th word, and it begins sometimes to mean 2 something, and sometimes it doesn't. But at all those 3 conferences, the -- the meat of learning is done in the 4 hallway with your colleagues. And I just wanted to bring 5 back that there are counties that are -- are having major, 6 major budget problems. Good friend of mine that I've pal'd 7 around with for years is a Commissioner down in -- below San 8 Antonio. They have 140 employees in their county, and 9 they're laying off 22 to meet their budget shortfall. And 10 that's just one example. 11 And what that says to me is that -- that 12 there's a shortfall across the state, and that also says to 13 me that -- that Kerr County has, in years past -- we'll find 14 out here in a few minutes how we're doing, but obviously, 15 we've done a fairly good job in years past, and -- and I 16 don't think that we're to the point of so many counties, the 17 problems that they're having. And that's -- that's 18 basically what I wanted to say. But that -- there's a lot 19 of people in really, really bad shape out there. It's not 20 just Kerr County that's going to struggle here a little bit, 21 but everybody's in really bad shape. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Commissioner 23 Williams? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would echo what 25 Commissioner Baldwin said, because I heard a great deal of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 5 1 the same thing, in addition to the reports that we heard 2 about how the actions or the inactions of the Legislature 3 are transcending down into this document in terms of funds 4 not being available, funds being slashed, no funding, or in 5 cases of new fines and fees, higher percentage going to the 6 -- to the State. And in some cases where we do the 7 collections, we get no percentage at all, which is a 8 departure from where we are. So, our work is clearly cut 9 out for us, but we're not in this boat by ourselves. All 10 counties find themselves very much in the same boat with us. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'd like to add one 12 thing to that, if I could. They have -- they've tried for 13 years to do a bill, to have a bill come out of there in the 14 form of a constitutional amendment that says that the State 15 cannot pass a mandate down to local authorities without 16 sending money with it, and they've tried that for years and 17 years. This last session was the first time that it had 18 ever gotten out of committee with approval, so that issue is 19 on the track to get somewhere now. I mean, the lawyers -- 20 and I understand it clearly. What they're saying is that, 21 you know, if you -- if you get it out of that committee, 22 it's on the road. And it may take -- it may take a couple 23 of two or three sessions to get that thing moving, but it -- 24 there's motion for the first time ever that -- that 25 something like that might happen, and that -- that excites 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 6 1 me. We need to participate in that, in my opinion. That's 2 all. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Did you have anything further, 4 Commissioner Williams? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, thank you, Judge. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner 3? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couple of comments. 8 First, I mean, I appreciate the work you've done. It looks 9 like you've gone through and done a lot of work already on 10 paring things down. I did notice quite a few blanks that 11 were left in your proposed budget, which I presume mean that 12 those are on the table today and next week to go through. 13 But I think, overall, I was very happy with the budget you 14 presented. I think that there's a few items that we need to 15 go over, but overall, I thought it's very good. A little 16 more specific thing -- this is just how I look at the 17 budget. To me, the critical thing is fund balances. 18 Expenditures are not necessarily a real accurate picture of 19 what's going on. If you -- one year may be higher or lower, 20 but you have to look at why they're higher. 21 In the past, I guess, years, we've done 22 various construction projects, and those have kind of kicked 23 up the budgets in those years and things of that nature. 24 So, I think that I look more at fund balance, and the 25 overall budget you presented does a good job on -- it's a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 7 1 slight improvement in our overall fund balance. I do note 2 in that one area that I have a concern on, Road and Bridge 3 Operating -- a general thing. I see that their fund balance 4 is going to a -- what I think is lower than it needs -- than 5 it should be, especially with -- with some of the flooding 6 disasters we've had in recent years. That's an area that I 7 think we probably need to really look at possibly shifting 8 some tax rate around, solve that problem. More of a 9 shifting of tax rate, and -- but it will affect other fund 10 balances. 11 Another -- two other, I guess, general items. 12 One is related to primarily elected officials. Maybe this 13 applies to department heads, too. Several years ago, 14 largely at my encouragement and desire and convincing the 15 rest of the Court, travel allowances that were in a separate 16 line item were rolled into salaries. I think we need to 17 reverse that. I think it was a mistake to roll them in. 18 And what I am hearing and seeing is that the memory of some 19 of the elected officials is short on that area, and 20 they're -- you know, I think they're wanting to come -- 21 they're coming back now wanting travel allowance, but that 22 was included in their salary items two years ago or three 23 years ago, whenever we did that adjustment. So, I think 24 that it is more accurate probably to keep that as a separate 25 line item, and I would recommend that we go through -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 8 1 throughout the budgets, and anyone who had a salary -- or a 2 travel allowance that was rolled into their salary, that be 3 rolled out and kept as a separate line item. I think it 4 keeps everything a little bit cleaner. 5 And the other question I have -- and I don't 6 expect an answer today, but I certainly do before we get 7 finished with these workshops. I am very confused about 8 what we've done two years ago with elected officials' 9 salaries, or last year -- I think two years ago or last 10 year. I've looked back through the minutes and looked 11 through what we did, and I don't see any relationship as to 12 what the Court ordered, based on the minutes of the record, 13 and the salary distribution that was given -- I get my years 14 confused; I don't know if it was two years ago or last year. 15 But, either way, I understood that -- I think it was two 16 years ago that we did a study to try to find -- to get 17 elected officials in this county to a parity with other 18 comparable counties. That was done. We came up with a 19 median salary level, and the intent was to give a 50 percent 20 -- those that were below the median were given a 50 percent 21 to catch them up to the median that year, with that other 22 50 percent coming last year or this year. I don't see that 23 that was done. And it's probably -- the Auditor and the 24 Treasurer are the two that probably have the best answer. 25 That's something I just -- at some point, I want to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 9 1 understand where those numbers came from and what happened 2 to the order that was given by this Court. That's it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Nicholson? 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You all are aware 5 that this is my first time through the budget process, and 6 it's a pretty steep learning curve. I've found so far that 7 there's a significant difference between government 8 budgeting and corporate budgeting, so I'm having to unlearn 9 some of the things that I thought I knew, and learn how to 10 deal with this kind of a budget. I wanted to tell you about 11 some of my hopes and biases that I'm going to have input 12 into this budget. I'm hoping that the budget process would 13 provide at least three things: Find ways to increase 14 employee productivity and improve the quality of services we 15 provide, it will treat our employees fairly in terms of 16 compensation and benefits, and it will give taxpayers good 17 value for their tax payments. 18 I'm particularly interested in dealing with 19 personnel issues. I see that we have the lowest paid salary 20 structure of any government entity in Kerr County, and I -- 21 I think it should be a source of embarrassment for this 22 Court that we have probably some 20 percent of our employees 23 that are paid less than the maximum allowed to be eligible 24 for food stamps and Medicaid. I don't think that's good 25 public policy, and I think we need to address it. I also 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 10 1 believe that there's inequity in staffing in some of our 2 departments. Some appear to be staffed very lean, and some 3 appear to have too many people. The department heads, 4 whether they're appointed or elected, need to consider that 5 the size of the compensation pie is not going to grow very 6 much, and it is better to have fewer people and give those 7 that you have a larger slice of the pie. It's good for 8 productivity, it's good for employee morale and a lot of 9 things. It's also good for the taxpayers. 10 I think our law enforcement people are -- I 11 think our employee health insurance is inadequate. I think 12 it costs too much, it covers too little, or both, and I see 13 that the large majority of our employees do not enroll in 14 dependent coverage. Most of our employees are enrolled in 15 employee-only, and there can be several reasons for that. 16 Perhaps they have a spouse that's got a good insurance 17 policy, or perhaps they don't have a spouse, but I think a 18 lot of people have not enrolled for dependent care because 19 the insurance plan is either too costly or -- or it's not 20 good enough. I'd like to see us establish a minimum living 21 wage for -- for our lowest paid employees, and it would be 22 an amount above that that makes them Medicaid-eligible. If 23 we do that, I think it costs around $125,000. It's not an 24 easy decision. 25 I'd like to see us increase the compensation 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 11 1 of law enforcement personnel to a level that's competitive 2 with other law enforcement agencies in Kerr County, and 3 that's -- I'm talking about deputies as well as elected 4 officials. That could be very costly to do that, probably 5 on the order of $150,000. I'd like to see us establish a 6 policy for merit increases, and fund that policy by the way 7 of -- of granting merit increases to genuinely deserving 8 people. I'd like to see us provide incentives to department 9 heads, whether they're elected or appointed, to improve 10 employee productivity and reduce head counts to a reasonable 11 level. I'd like to see us seek professional advice and find 12 ways to improve our employee health plan. 13 I'm going to turn to Road and Bridge now. 14 It's my opinion that the County Road and Bridge Department's 15 budgets have been neglected the past few years. I think 16 that they do a good job of increasing productivity, and they 17 -- they do a lot with the money they have to work with. And 18 I think it's underfunded, and taxpayers expect and believe 19 -- I believe they're willing to pay for a more aggressive 20 effort to maintain and improve our roads. The lateral road 21 tax rate in 1997 was 5.92 cents. It was lowered to 3.72 22 cents in '98, lowered again to 2.14 cents in 2000, and it 23 was raised to 2.34 cents in 2001. What this means is we've 24 seen a 60 percent reduction in our lateral road tax. I 25 don't know why -- why we did that. It appears to be some 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 12 1 effort to try to balance between the road budget and the -- 2 and the general budget. I think we need to restore the 3 lateral road fund to the level it was previously. 4 I believe fire protection's another major 5 issue for citizens in Kerr County, and we have good 6 volunteer fire departments. Some are more capable than 7 others, and we need to insure that we support those and 8 support the -- the enhancement of those that need to -- need 9 to build up their capability. I want to tag along on 10 Jonathan's comments and say I thank Judge Tinley for doing a 11 good job of organizing this budget, and the thoroughness 12 that he used to go about it. I think you've got it in a 13 shape that we can work with it. That's all I've got. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Commissioner 15 Nicholson. I'm somewhat puzzled by the blanks that 16 Commissioner Letz was talking about. Some of the blanks 17 that are there are blank because they're meant to be zero, 18 but as far as I know, I've tried to fill in most of those 19 blanks. I -- I also am concerned about the -- the decline 20 in operating revenues out at Road and Bridge, and I think 21 there needs to be a readjustment of the tax rate, because 22 there is a segregation of the maintenance and operation 23 portions of the revenues and the tax revenues and the Road 24 and Bridge portion, and the Road and Bridge portion has been 25 diminished. And, as a result, their ability to operate 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 13 1 effectively and the reserves have declined. 2 Like Commissioner Nicholson, I also am doing 3 this for the first time, and it's been a learning experience 4 for me. And, as I'm sure most of you have heard, it was a 5 different process this year, different than done in prior 6 years, and as is very often the case when something is done 7 differently, there are expressions of concern or 8 uncertainty, or possibly even doubt. Having said that, I 9 want to thank all of the elected officials and department 10 heads for their cooperation and their making themselves 11 available to talk with me about their budget requests, their 12 concerns, the -- the reasoning behind their requests, and -- 13 and allowing me to get a better understanding and insight 14 into the needs of each of their respective offices as a 15 result of those discussions. The process that was followed 16 this year is, I believe, what Chapter 111 of the Local 17 Government Code requires that be followed, and that's why we 18 followed it. Hopefully, this new process will prove to be a 19 better process, and we can achieve the objectives that we 20 all are trying to achieve in providing appropriate financing 21 for the operation of our county government. 22 Now, let me, for the benefit of the 23 Commissioners, and I guess to a lesser degree those of you 24 here today, give you the guidelines that -- that this budget 25 was prepared under, what it does and does not include. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 14 1 Number one, COLA's, cost-of-living adjustments or increases. 2 It does not include any cost-of-living adjustments or 3 increases. A number of the budget items that you see in 4 employee compensation will be less than what was requested, 5 and more often than not it is that way because the COLA is 6 backed out of it. The COLA was included in the request, and 7 what I recommended is back -- the COLA's backed out of it. 8 My thinking there was that, number one, I thought the Court 9 would want to see what the numbers were before granting any 10 COLA. Secondly, my rationale in thinking was I felt like 11 the granting or not of a COLA was a decision to be made by 12 the Court as a whole. 13 Longevity and educational increases. As most 14 of you are aware, there was a policy that was established, I 15 believe approximately four years ago, which provided for 16 longevity and educational increases. That policy is still 17 in place, and as a result of being in place, I felt like 18 longevity and educational increases should be included. If 19 we want to change the policy, that's another decision, but 20 right now that policy is in effect, and so those numbers are 21 included in the employee compensation numbers that I've 22 provided in the budget. I particularly want to thank the 23 Treasurer for helping me with these items, and it was very, 24 very instrumental in giving me the right information I 25 needed in order to be able to do this. You can have a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 15 1 disagreement as to the policy, whether it's correct or 2 incorrect or whether it needs to be modified or adjusted, 3 but right now it exists, and so those numbers are included. 4 Salary increases for elected officials. 5 There were a number of the elected officials that indicated 6 that they felt like certain salary increases or adjustments 7 were warranted, and they were requested. The budget that is 8 before you today and that was filed with the County Clerk, 9 as required by law, does not include any salary increases 10 for elected officials. Here again, it was my belief that 11 the salary increases for elected officials should be a 12 matter for this entire Court to address, and therefore, they 13 are not included. 14 Capital outlays. Capital Outlay items are 15 generally not included. The notable exception is Road and 16 Bridge, and that exception was made because Road and Bridge, 17 by its very nature and its operation, is capital asset 18 intensive and utilizes a great deal of equipment and capital 19 assets, and it has been for many, many years an integral 20 part of its budget. Otherwise, Capital Outlay items are, I 21 believe, to be handled by this Court on an individual, 22 case-by-case basis. 23 Now, all of the elected officials that -- and 24 department heads that I talked to in preparation for making 25 up this budget were told of these various guidelines. They 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 16 1 were told what would or would not be included, and they were 2 told that they were privileged to come before this Court and 3 say whatever they wished to say, of course, and to ask this 4 Court for whatever changes they wanted to make, but they 5 were advised of these guidelines. I have done what I 6 believe the law mandates that I do, and that is prepare and 7 file a budget. Unlike proposed budgets of at least the last 8 four years, which required either a tax increase or the 9 Court's authorization to spend the County's financial 10 reserves to cover what I discovered to be millions of 11 dollars of expenditures which were in excess of anticipated 12 revenues, the budget which I have filed and is before you 13 today will not require a tax increase, and it will not 14 require the further erosion of our diminished reserves. 15 Gentlemen, this is a balanced budget before you. Whether it 16 remains that way is up to you. Okay. First one we've got 17 up -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, may I make a 19 couple comments, if I may? Going back to -- and kind of 20 they're all together, but it's just more for, I think, 21 information to you. Dave, possibly you don't know -- I 22 don't know; maybe do you know this. Road and Bridge had 23 built up a large reserve based on the tax that was there, 24 the 9 cent, whatever it was, and they weren't using it. It 25 wasn't in the -- since I've been a Commissioner, we pretty 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 17 1 much have funded whatever was recommended and requested out 2 of that department, with probably the exception of last 3 year, as I recall. So, I think -- I mean, the reason was 4 that we were out of kilter. The reserves were real high 5 there and they weren't using that money, so we did transfer 6 some of that tax rate into the other. I think we're at the 7 point now that, you know, you never -- it's very -- it's a 8 balancing act, in my mind, as to where you set that rate. I 9 think you're right, it is too low now, but I don't think it 10 needs to go back up to 9 cents again, 'cause I think that is 11 more than was needed, and more than has been requested by 12 Road and Bridge Department. 13 The other point you made about, you know, 14 adjusting salaries and trying to get them up 15 across-the-board, that has been a goal of mine and I think 16 the Court's. In the last six years, we've gone through a 17 couple of surveys and trying to adjust salaries and trying 18 to raise them. Every time we raise them, unfortunately, the 19 other entity -- I won't say "unfortunately," but other 20 entities do the same thing, and we're not catching up to 21 where we should be, but it hasn't been because of lack of 22 effort. It's been -- we certainly have done a huge salary 23 adjustment two years ago, which is -- had a major, major 24 impact on our budget today, and will in the future. And 25 part of that is the longevity and educational, I guess, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 18 1 policy that we instituted. 2 One of the things that I really like that I 3 heard Commissioner Nicholson say, and I -- and it's going to 4 really take a -- a new way of thinking throughout the 5 county, primarily by elected -- or elected officials and 6 department heads, is to kind of -- I'll use a term you hear, 7 "think out of the box." The County, as long as I've been a 8 Commissioner, and I think way before that, you know, has 9 pretty much not had a merit policy. I think we need to. We 10 have -- the adjustments we've made have been pretty much 11 across-the-board in the past six years I've been on the 12 Court -- seven years, and there really has not been a -- I 13 guess, a policy or a -- a direction to go with a merit -- 14 more of a merit-type policy, other than each elected 15 official, they recommend people to certain positions, and 16 based on what they did in those positions, they got paid 17 accordingly. 18 I think that the -- the only way that I see 19 in the near future, being the next five years, that we're 20 going to make any significant changes in our salary 21 structure is either a very substantial tax increase, or 22 think out of the box and see if we can figure out ways to 23 reduce staff through attrition or -- I'm certainly not in 24 favor of any kind of layoffs, but through attrition, and 25 spread that salary out and raise the salary level. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 19 1 Basically, reduce numbers of County employees, but increase 2 the salary of the remaining employees. I think you have to 3 set a policy in place to get that done. That is what has 4 been done, as you're aware, throughout private industry for 5 the last 20 years, and it's something this county has not 6 been able to do and not done. And I don't know that we can 7 do it, but I think it's something that I really would like 8 to see us look at. I don't know that we can look at that 9 and do any kind of a policy under this budget, but certainly 10 by next year, I would certainly encourage the Court and 11 other elected officials to really start looking at what we 12 can do to improve salaries across-the-board. 13 My final point is a -- a comment, you know, 14 the Judge made regarding basically deficit spending in the 15 past four years. And I think that is true; the Court did. 16 But the Court also was funding, basically -- had built up 17 very substantial reserves for the purpose of spending them 18 on capital projects, which we did, so that I think that 19 it's -- it's accurate, from a number standpoint, that we 20 spent -- you know, lowered reserves -- spent out of reserves 21 the past four years. But we have always, the last budgets 22 that I voted on, kept the reserve level at what is 23 recommended by the State and recommended by our Auditor, and 24 we spent the excess down, because it is my feeling that, you 25 know, it is not the purpose of county government to be a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 20 1 savings account and hold money that should be in the 2 taxpayers' pocket. We should either spend it on county 3 projects and things that are needed for the county, or we 4 shouldn't keep it. The alternative, in my mind, of doing 5 the courthouse renovation and some of these other large -- 6 Animal Control was done during that period, the new 7 Extension Office. All those were done largely 8 out-of-budget, or over short-term financing through tax 9 anticipation notes. The alternative of not doing those 10 would have been to lower the tax rate, because I don't see 11 that -- I certainly am not in favor of us building up 12 reserves for the sake of having reserves. I think we need 13 to keep our reserve level at a percentage that is 14 recommended by the State, and not beyond that. I think that 15 it is not wise use of taxpayers' money for us to build up 16 reserves. Anyway, that's it. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I have a 19 question, if you don't mind. You're ready to bail off in 20 it, aren't you? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, I was going to go one by 22 one. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, let me ask you a 24 question. Are we going to deal with the entire budget? Are 25 we going to pull out salaries and deal with them as a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 21 1 separate item? Just pull out salaries and deal with 2 salaries at some other point? Or are we going to do it as 3 we -- if we're -- if we're going to do it now, I would think 4 that we would want to talk about those issues that 5 Commissioner Letz brought up, and that's breaking out the 6 travel and the other issue of -- of this 50 percent thing of 7 equalization. Seems like to me that we need to finalize 8 that, get that clear if we're going to go off into each 9 budget. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, my thinking, 11 Commissioner, would be that -- that we hear what the various 12 elected officials have to say about some of the -- some of 13 the requested increases. I'm -- I'm not sure we're in a 14 position to really make even a preliminary decision about 15 what those ought to be. I think we need to give these 16 individuals the opportunity -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to express them. And then, 19 when we get to the tail end of the process, we can talk 20 about the broader issues that affect the budget, from Page 1 21 to Page 100 or whatever it is. That was kind of my 22 thinking. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And I think 24 that's good thinking. Many times we have broken out 25 salaries, and just -- that would be an agenda item all of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 22 1 its own, you know, to deal with that all by itself over 2 there after -- after we get through with everybody. I 3 understand that. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: We have an additional workshop 5 day that we have not yet allocated, and that's a week from 6 today, that we've not -- we don't have things plugged in 7 for. We got things plugged in for today and next Tuesday 8 and next Wednesday, but there were a total of four days set 9 aside. But if there's no objection, I'll proceed to go into 10 -- the first one up is mine. As can be noted there, there 11 are some increases in some of the areas. There is at least 12 one decrease, I think. The primary increase has to -- we're 13 going to have some increases in group insurance on all of 14 these because of the new figure. The other one has to do, I 15 believe, with the conference dues and subscription. That, 16 of course, was not restored last year, as were most of them 17 in the prior year. And there were some other -- there was 18 some decreases and there were some increases, but they're 19 minor. I'd be happy to answer any questions that any of you 20 gentlemen have about any of those items. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have no questions. 22 It looks good. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. 24 JUDGE ELLIOTT: You gentlemen take any 25 questions from the public? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 23 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, let us finish 2 first. And it's up to the Judge. I mean, fine with me. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With respect to 4 yours, or all of them? 5 JUDGE ELLIOTT: No, just the issues you're 6 talking about, that's all. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: General -- as to overall 8 or philosophy, or specific -- 9 JUDGE ELLIOTT: The specific issue of the 10 County Judge's budget. That's what you're talking about. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ask your question as soon 12 as I'm finished. It's up to the Judge. County mileage. 13 That, I believe, is new? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, it is. You're right. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the issue of county 17 mileage came up, I believe, at the request of -- of 18 Commissioner Williams on out-of-county mileage, and that 19 also is a new item in the Commissioners Court budget. And I 20 allocated a portion of that in the event that -- that I 21 choose to assume the AACOG function. That was primarily 22 what that was for. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it's out-of-county 24 mileage? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, it's out-of-county. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 24 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we could -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- I'm afraid that 3 probably the Commissioners Court -- yeah, it says the same 4 thing, but that's out-of-county in both cases. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm glad you're 6 breaking that out. I like it. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. That's -- that was 8 the only question I had. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. You had a question, 10 Judge Elliott? 11 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Yes, sir. What -- what was 12 the overall county -- I mean, the budget for the County 13 Judge for the current budget year? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: For the current budget year? 15 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Yes, sir, the current. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Appears to be 64,688. 17 JUDGE ELLIOTT: 64,688? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That would appear to be it. 19 JUDGE ELLIOTT: And what is the medical 20 expenses for that -- for this? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Group insurance? 22 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Difference between 5,484 and 24 4,555. 25 JUDGE ELLIOTT: 4,555 is the group insurance? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 25 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. The difference 2 between -- 3 JUDGE ELLIOTT: No, no, I'm sorry. What I'm 4 asking you is, your current budget year, the one we're in at 5 this time -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 7 JUDGE ELLIOTT: -- totals 64,688. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I'm looking at. 9 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Included in that is the 10 health insurance expense of how much money? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The allocation here is $4,555. 12 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Okay. And then, for your 13 recommended budget for the next budget year, your total is 14 how much? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The total? 16 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Not for health insurance, but 18 total? 19 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Total. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: 66,178. 21 JUDGE ELLIOTT: 66,178? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 23 JUDGE ELLIOTT: And that includes health 24 insurance allocation for how much money? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: 5,484. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 26 1 JUDGE ELLIOTT: So, that's only about a 2 $1,000 increase? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Approximately, yeah. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: 929. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: 900 something, probably. 6 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Okay. So, there's about a 1 7 percent decrease if you backed out the health insurance? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know. I haven't made 9 that calculation. 10 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Okay. I'm just trying to -- 11 trying to understand, if you backed out the health 12 insurance, what is the difference in your budget that you're 13 recommending next year as opposed to this year? That's all 14 I was trying to get at. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. You don't have a copy 16 of it? 17 JUDGE ELLIOTT: No, sir. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, there's certainly 19 copies available. 20 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Okay. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions on that 22 particular item? 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: A general question 24 about employee health insurance. Why is it going up so 25 much? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 27 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm going to -- I'm going to 2 defer to the Auditor. I think the Auditor or Barbara, one 3 or the other, plugged in the 5,484 number for -- to project 4 for the coming year. That's -- 5 MS. CUNNINGHAM: 25 percent all over. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Not a question that 7 has to be answered now, but something we got to understand. 8 MS. NEMEC: The reason for the high -- one of 9 the reasons for the high increase is that, last year, the 10 figure that was figured into our insurance budget was not 11 the -- it was an estimated figure, because we don't get 12 those figures till after the budget is approved. So, I 13 believe that 5,484 includes that increase, as well as an 14 estimated increase for this next year. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Will we get a total 17 figure from the Auditor or the Treasurer for health care? 18 Total number? Not particularly departmental, by account. 19 Increase of health care county-wide, plus -- 20 MR. TOMLINSON: I think I -- you have that 21 worksheet, Judge? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I think I do. Let me see if I 23 can find it here. Total increase in health insurance, I 24 believe, is 336,000 and change. That sound about right, 25 Tommy? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 28 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Total increase. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Total increase. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the budget item -- 4 the number, total number? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: For health insurance? I don't 6 have that. I do not have that total. All I have is -- is 7 '02/'03, '03/'04, and then the increase. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What was the '03/'04 9 total? Do you have that? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I do not have that. Don't 11 have either one of them. Not the total from all different 12 accounts. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy might have. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: That worksheet you have. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm? It does not show the 16 total on either year; it merely -- 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Oh, it shows the difference. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The difference. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All it shows is the 20 difference. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. I didn't total that 22 line, then. 23 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Judge Tinley? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes? 25 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Did you realize that if you 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 29 1 backed out the health insurance, which you have, 2 basically -- I mean, you have some control over if you guys 3 evaluate our health insurance needs, but if you backed that 4 expense out, did you realize that your budget increased 5 $561? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I didn't make that 7 calculation. 8 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Okay. I just didn't know if 9 you realized that the County Judge budget -- operating 10 budget increased $561 if you backed out health insurance. I 11 didn't know if you were aware of that. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I did not make that 13 calculation, no. 14 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Okay. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions on that 16 particular item? Okay. Next one is the County Court. 17 There were some ups, there were some downs. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Could you take us to 19 that? What page? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Page 11. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Page 11. The one notable 23 exception on that item, there's an added new line item, 426, 24 $4,000 entry. That item is there as a result -- 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Excuse me, Judge, I 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 30 1 wasn't listening. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Would you say that 4 over again, what item you're referring to? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: 486 -- excuse me, 426. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: As a result of an order passed 8 by this Court in 1999, for which there never was a line item 9 established. And, as to the others, there are some that -- 10 I don't know, let me see here. Conference dues are 11 obviously up, and probate seminar was up to the levels of -- 12 of the previous year prior to this budget year. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, this judicial 14 supplement, that is -- that is -- that's from County 15 coffers? That's not a state supplement to this department? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: No, that's as a result of -- 17 of a cost that is paid that this Court approved in 1999. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But where do the funds 19 come from? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The funds come from -- from 21 court costs. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The first of a lot 25 of elementary questions. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 31 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: When I see 3 retirement, that's the amount of money that goes into an 4 IRA-like account? Matching employee contribution? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: It's under the Texas 6 County/District Retirement System, and that number changes, 7 as does the payroll tax or the FICA, with the amount of the 8 salary. There may or may not be a difference. Only depends 9 upon if the salary changes. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That is the whole -- 11 that account is the whole amount of money that's available 12 to employees who retire? There's no -- no other county 13 funds contributed toward their retirement? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll pass that to the Auditor. 15 MR. TOMLINSON: I didn't hear the question. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This IRA-like 17 account that employees contribute to and County contributes 18 to, that's the total amount of funds available to employees 19 when they retire? There's no other -- there's no insurance 20 payments? There's nothing else? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay? Next item, 401, 23 Commissioners Court. Page 2. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, my -- two 25 questions. One is Legal Assistance. That is -- has been 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 32 1 zeroed out for some time. It appears here. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My recollection is 4 that there -- in years past, there's been times where the 5 County Attorney, for one reason or another, didn't handle 6 our civil work for the Commissioners Court, and therefore we 7 had to hire an outside lawyer or contract with a lawyer to 8 get our civil work done. Are we still on that same track, 9 that the County Attorney is going to handle our civil work? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, Commissioner, we've got 11 486, Professional Services, and I believe in more recent 12 years, that's where that particular -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As well as -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: -- expenditure has taken 15 place. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. As well as 17 engineers and those studies that we do occasionally? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Professional -- okay. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, I believe there's a 21 separate one for auditing, if I'm not mistaken. 22 MS. SOVIL: Nondepartmental. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's in a different 24 account. But we've got a separate one for auditing, our 25 annual audit. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 33 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: But this is all other 3 professional services covered in that line item. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, on the 5 professional services, in the past, we've -- I mean, those 6 numbers, they've kind of come about by what we thought we 7 were -- where we needed professional services. Like, last 8 year, we had some architectural-type stuff, and all the way 9 to the bond issue. Is there -- is that just a number, just 10 to have something in there? Or is there a -- is that kind 11 of -- is it made up of anything to get that 12,5? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I got there by virtue 13 of -- of input from each of you giving me your -- your 14 thoughts on what that number ought to be, and as a result of 15 that composite information from all of you, I came up with a 16 requested 12,5. And so, basically, I guess you could say I 17 was relying upon your collective wisdom of -- of coming up 18 with that number. I do know in prior years it's been 19 higher. This year, the projected expenditure is something 20 under $20,000. Right now, it's at $13,850. Whether or not 21 we spend another dime, who knows? You know, that's 22 something that -- it's not something you can truly annualize 23 like you can the utility bill or a lease payment or a 24 copier, something along that line. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I think it 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 34 1 makes sense to leave a number in there, because something is 2 likely to come up during the year. But in every other year, 3 I think I can -- there was certain things that we knew we 4 were going to spend it on, whether it was architectural or 5 design or -- you know, just different kinds of things that 6 we'd been working on, you know. To me, that number is very 7 much related to the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center. I 8 think -- I don't think we need 12,5 in there, you know, 9 without that unknown, which we haven't discussed yet. I 10 think that number, you know, can really go down to, like, 11 5,000. I just don't see that we have anything that I see 12 that we're going to need professional services for; possible 13 exception is going to be on some of the RFQ's that we have 14 floating around with insurance. I don't know, we may need 15 some money there. But, other than that, I just don't see 16 that we have a lot of professional service needs. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, correct me if 18 I'm wrong. Is that not the line that, if a lawsuit came up, 19 that we would hire possibly a federal-type lawyer to 20 represent us? And that brings another question up. It's my 21 understanding that we are probably going to have a major 22 murder trial here. Is there any way that we may be affected 23 by that -- this line item right here be affected by the 24 murder trial? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: In my opinion, Commissioner, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 35 1 not in this particular portion of the budget. This has to 2 do with what the Commissioners Court -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like lawyers; don't 4 get me wrong. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: If we -- if we get -- if we 6 get sued and we've got to hire a lawyer in federal court, 7 that's not covered. If we don't have defense coverage under 8 an insurance policy, we very well may be looking at that, 9 yes. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's -- we 11 need to keep something in there in case something pops up. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, you had -- 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Just one comment about these 14 professional services. For our public officials' liability 15 coverage, we have a deductible, and if we -- if we, you 16 know, have a lawsuit because of something that happens here 17 at the courthouse or out at the jail, and our -- and our 18 insurance carrier hires an attorney to represent us for one 19 cause or the other, we would have to pay the deductible. 20 So, you know, I would leave at least that amount there just 21 for that reason alone, because the likelihood of us not 22 having at least one or two in one year, I think, is fairly 23 remote. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Because in almost all 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 36 1 of them, we're named in those suits, this Court. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, we are. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or the Sheriff. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: We do have to pay the 5 deductible, even though it's covered. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, we'll just leave 8 it. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, sir? 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Line item 105, 12 salary of the Court Coordinator. This change that you've 13 got recommended here is consistent with your budget strategy 14 of only including longevity or educational increases? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That's correct. That's all it 16 includes, is a longevity increase, as indicated by the 17 Treasurer. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I am requesting a 19 larger amount there, and I'll make my case for that in due 20 course. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The Conference line -- 22 let's see. 23 MS. SOVIL: 45. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 4,500. I think that 25 we've -- I think we've arrived at a good number, in my 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 37 1 opinion, finally. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That also -- that number was 3 also based upon the collective input of all of you, and I -- 4 I just individually had you furnish me information on both 5 Commissioners Court and Nondepartmental on areas that you 6 had particular thoughts and ideas on. And, as a result of 7 that, I came up with what I saw collectively as what your 8 request was, and that's how that got where it is. 9 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Excuse me. Was that budget 10 amount $4,500, which would be basically divided by four 11 commissioners for conferences? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $1,125 each. That's 13 based on the -- I mean, I forgot -- I think I said $1,200 on 14 my request originally, but it takes two schools to get the 15 required hours. We can't do it in one. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, with respect 17 to group insurance, under Commissioners Court -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- was this County 20 Judge -- under County Judge, you plugged in a number for 21 County Judge for 5,484, which was provided by the Treasurer, 22 but if I do my math, under Commissioners Court for group 23 insurance, it comes to 6,855 per -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: You've got a total of five; 25 you don't have four. You got a court administrator. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 38 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That takes care of 2 it, thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we go back to 4 Conference line just for a second? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have -- for several 7 years now, we've spent more than we've budgeted, because the 8 State requires us to get all these hours. And, like Jon was 9 saying there, we have to go to two different schools to get 10 enough hours for a certification. And, even with that, this 11 last -- this last year, we went to the Fort Worth 12 conference, and that was -- that's the first time in five 13 years or so that I have spent one penny. Me, personally, 14 going to a conference, of County money. And I'm saying that 15 to show that there's a possibility we may not be doing 16 enough here. I'm not sure. I just wanted to get that on 17 the table, that I haven't spent any, and we're still going 18 over budget. Are we sure that $1,100 does it? I mean -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: The increase from the previous 20 year is $900; we went from 36 to 45. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: And that's because 23 year-to-date expenditures are almost $3,700. So -- but the 24 budget, of course, was amended upwards to provide for that. 25 And I -- but if I'm not mistaken, there's been a further 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 39 1 amendment since July the 31st amending that upward, if I'm 2 not mistaken. But I don't know. That's -- you gentlemen 3 would certainly have more knowledge about that than I, you 4 know. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask 6 Commissioner Letz, I thought -- you went to Fort Worth, but 7 have you been anywhere else to pick up the rest of your 8 hours? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, I didn't get my hours 10 this year; there wasn't enough money in the budget. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's what I'm 12 talking about. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- you 14 know, I think that each, you know, Commissioner needs to 15 kind of look at that, and that's their -- each one's, you 16 know, individual amount. Even though it's one item, I don't 17 think -- I think we should look at it as, you know, my 18 budget is $1,125, and the best way I can do it. And that 19 may mean, you know -- you know, staying with a friend 20 somewhere or doing a day, or getting people to come here or 21 doing things, because I -- you know, I've been pretty -- I 22 think pretty consistent this year, and that I think the 23 elected officials need to put -- we need to put enough money 24 here that they think they can get their hours, but I'm not 25 real inclined to give budget amendments on this item. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 40 1 People need to budget. They may not be able to stay at a 2 Radisson; may have to stay at a Day's Inn. That's just the 3 way it is. I mean, it's -- I think we need to provide the 4 money to get the hours, but that's it. So, I mean, I -- I 5 think it's enough, in my opinion, that I can get my hours 6 with $1,125. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on this 9 particular budget? Okay, we'll move on. Court Collections. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What page is that? 11 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Judge? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 15. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 14 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Judge, on the Commissioners' 15 budget, is it -- I just want to make sure I understood that 16 what we have in the current year was 238 -- excuse me, 17 261,932, and the recommended is 260,262. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Correct budget is 19 267,795. 20 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Current budget is what? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 267,795. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That's with the amendments 23 that have been made. 24 JUDGE ELLIOTT: But the original budget 25 amount was 261 -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 41 1 JUDGE TINLEY: That's correct. 2 JUDGE ELLIOTT: -- 932? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. According to the 4 information I have furnished by the Auditor, that's correct. 5 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Okay. 6 (Discussion off the record.) 7 (Recess taken from 11:35 a.m. to 11:40 a.m.) 8 - - - - - - - - - - 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we'll resume the -- the 10 budget workshop after taking a short recess and allowing the 11 reporter to get her equipment squared away. Before we get 12 to Mr. Alford with Collections, I -- I want to take a moment 13 and -- and thank Ms. Sovil for her -- all of her work and 14 cooperation in helping me through the process. It was -- as 15 I'd indicated, it was a new game for me, and I was wandering 16 off into uncharted territory, and her help was invaluable in 17 kind of leading me by the hand through all of this. And I 18 wanted to thank her for all of her assistance and let you 19 gentlemen know -- as Buster would say, if there's something 20 you don't like about it, I'm going to blame it on her. But, 21 no, I -- I'm responsible for what's filed, but I do 22 appreciate her help, and she was of immeasurable help to me. 23 The next item we have up is the Courts Collection 24 Department. Mr. Alford, you got the floor. 25 MR. ALFORD: I got the floor. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 42 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Page 15, gentlemen. 2 MR. ALFORD: If it's okay with the 3 Commissioners Court, I would like to skip the salary, the 4 FICA, retirement, all that, 'cause really, as a department 5 head, I have no control over that. That's set by the Court. 6 So, what I'd like to do is start at 309 and go down. That's 7 kind of the meat of my department, if that's okay with 8 everybody. It -- when you look from 309 down to 370, I have 9 an extremely large budget; it's $5,625, so I'm not going to 10 take up a lot of y'all's time. The problem I have with this 11 year, I incurred a $2,800 deduction or cut from my overall 12 -- what I call operating money. Last year, I had 9,450. 13 This year, 5,625. Some of the cuts I did from -- my 14 predecessor had built up some pretty good pads and pillows 15 that I did not foresee that was necessary any more in the 16 future. The main one was a conference; I had $1,000 in 17 conference. Y'all allowed me to hire an employee last year. 18 He went to his conference this year. We are not required to 19 have any type of continuing education, like y'all are, so I 20 just cut that $1,000 out. 21 I feel fortunate to work in Kerr County. We 22 still get phone calls once a week about, "How do y'all do 23 it? Can you send us your form?" Apparently, we're still 24 pretty much on top of our game statewide. So, as long as 25 they're calling us, that means we're okay; we don't need to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 43 1 go back for any more training. Books and publications, 2 again, my predecessor did a lot of other books and 3 publications. He had bi-part books. I don't do that, so I 4 want to reduce that down, like, $50. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It says 75. 6 MR. ALFORD: Right. My original -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll go 50 if you want. 8 MR. ALFORD: That's fine. Only reason I'm 9 doing -- the organization I belong to is $50. There was no 10 increase. That's a pretty hard -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It says your request 12 is 75. 13 MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir, it was. That was 14 estimated at the time; that was pre-conference. They've now 15 had the conference, and no increase. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, it's now 50? 17 MR. ALFORD: It's now 50. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 19 MR. ALFORD: Other than that, just when 20 you're -- when y'all start punching numbers, look and try to 21 get me some of my money back. Some of it I cut under some 22 mandates that I was informed of, that I had to come up with 23 some money somewhere, and so I cut some numbers I didn't 24 really want to have to cut, but I did. So, whenever y'all 25 look at that, I would like to go back to, like, just roll 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 44 1 back to the last year's numbers from 10 -- or from 309 down. 2 That's what my original plan was. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I guess I've got 4 two questions. 5 MR. ALFORD: Go ahead. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Credit history reports. 7 MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess, in my mind-set, 9 we were -- we would be going down the other direction, 10 'cause there was a lot of backlog when we started all that. 11 MR. ALFORD: Right. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought we would be at 13 a point now where those numbers would be coming down, but 14 they're going -- 15 MR. ALFORD: Well, and you're right, but 16 we've added some new programs this year, during this current 17 budget, that's going to bump us back up some. I still don't 18 think we'll reach the $2,800 mark, but I don't know how far 19 we'll reach, so that's why I was going to leave that -- try 20 to leave that alone. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 22 MR. ALFORD: And that's why I recently bumped 23 it down to $1,800. That's probably still a pretty good 24 guesstimate, because it's -- one program alone is going to 25 be, like, $1,100 a year that we're starting to use now. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 45 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You said new program. I 2 mean, search-type program? 3 MR. ALFORD: No, sir, it's a telephone -- 4 animated telephone calling. What it is, it's 5 internet-based. It allows us to go out and program in the 6 phone number with our own message. The computer calls it at 7 night, you know, like all these phone calls we hate to get 8 when we're at home relaxing. It's one of these type deals 9 to where -- real simple; it says, "John Doe, your payment is 10 due tomorrow morning. Please contact this department if you 11 don't make it." Kind of as a reminder. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What do you put as the 13 option if you don't make it? 14 MR. ALFORD: Well, there is one -- we're in 15 open court, so I don't want to go into all the details. 16 Another time. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll go back to that. 18 MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I'll leave it to 20 the Judge; nevermind. If you think we need to have a 21 machine that does that -- 22 MR. ALFORD: They're using it statewide. 23 Again, that's something that I've talked to several 24 different people on. It seems to be working. We've made 25 some money off it. We've only been using it three months 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 46 1 now; we've made some money off of it. So far, it's a 2 minimum of $75 a month. That's your base price. For the 3 last three months, we have at least made our $75 paid, so we 4 haven't lost any money on it. Just haven't made a whole lot 5 off of it yet. I'm hoping in the future, the more we use 6 it, the more we will -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, if there's no 8 justification -- 9 MR. ALFORD: And -- well, no, my 10 justification to it is, a lot of the people that do pay have 11 jobs. The majority of those work 8:00 to 5:00 Monday 12 through Friday, same hours we do, so this allows us to 13 contact them after hours. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If my memory serves 16 me, this -- this line was put in there in order for -- it 17 was a tool for your department to go back and collect those 18 old -- 19 MR. ALFORD: That's correct. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- unpaid -- 21 MR. ALFORD: That was some of it. We still 22 do on new people also, yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, my question is, 24 are you still doing some of the old payments? 25 MR. ALFORD: Yes, but not as much as we did 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 47 1 two, three years ago. With our computer system that we 2 have, I don't care how many reports you run, every day seems 3 like they come up different, and every day we find new 4 people we didn't find before. Plus we have some we have 5 never found. We have some that we have found, but have 6 moved so we're continuously using the program constantly to 7 update our locating people. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Brad, talk about your 9 travel line. Current budget's 1,000. You didn't request 10 any, but yet in the recommended, it's 1,200. 11 MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir. That line was 12 originally conference, and it was changed to travel. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 14 MR. ALFORD: And that's -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I can probably explain that to 16 the Commissioner. 17 MR. ALFORD: If you would, please. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: There was a -- a bill filed in 19 the Legislature that would permit court collections 20 departments and counties to put retainers on prisoners being 21 released from Texas Department of Corrections that had 22 outstanding fines or fees due. That bill did not pass. The 23 -- this item is inserted in there for cases in which, when 24 the Sheriff is notified that someone's about to be released 25 or otherwise -- actually paroled from the Texas Department 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 48 1 of Corrections -- actually, it's the Department of Criminal 2 Justice, Institutional Division; they've got a kinder and 3 gentler name to it. It will allow us, if there are fines or 4 fees due, to go down there and -- and get those people 5 signed up on a case-by-case basis. 'Cause, otherwise, 6 they're merely told when they're released, you know, you be 7 sure and go by Kerr County and make arrangements to pay that 8 fine. And, of course, they respond, "Oh, yes, that's the 9 very first thing we're going to do when we get out of here." 10 We never see those people, of course. If we can get them in 11 our collections system, we'll have -- we'll have a hold of 12 them before they ever get out. That was the original 13 thought. Whether or not it comes to fruition, it's 14 something that we just started working on here within the 15 last week or so, I guess. Isn't it, Brad? 16 MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Whether it's something that's 18 going to prove to be something that we -- we can really 19 generate some revenue out of, we don't know. Obviously, 20 we're not going to send them down there to sign up just 21 somebody that owes 500 or 1,000. A lot of these fines and 22 fees range up into $5,000, $10,000, and that was the 23 rationale behind that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, you mean that 25 -- that Brad would actually get in a car and drive to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 49 1 Huntsville and sit out there in the door and catch them as 2 they're coming out? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: No, before. Before. Before 4 they're released. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Behind the second 6 door, then. He catches them in there somewhere? Golly. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: There's competition for the 8 dough out there, Commissioner. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I just -- I 10 don't -- I'm not sure -- I'm not sure that's of benefit. 11 Don't they come -- like, when they're released, aren't they 12 assigned to a -- not a probation officer -- a parole 13 officer? 14 MR. ALFORD: Yes, they are. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wouldn't that be an 16 easier way to make a connection with them? 17 MR. ALFORD: We're hoping it will be in the 18 very near future. What the Judge was talking about is that 19 we were relying on Parole -- we're fortunate to have two 20 good parole officers here, and they would -- whenever they 21 report to their parole, they do say, as the Judge said, "Go 22 over to the courthouse and contact them, do your deal." 23 Some will show up, some will not. After we started our 24 round-table discussion about this, I've contacted Parole, 25 and we probably -- starting real quick, maybe next week, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 50 1 week after, Parole meets twice a week here in Kerrville. 2 They actually meet in Ingram, I think Ingram State Marshal's 3 Office. And I think what we're going to try to do, instead 4 of driving over to Huntsville and meeting these five or six 5 guys, is go to parole meetings in Ingram, and be sitting in 6 the same room as the parole officer, and still having the 7 eye-to-eye contact with the parole officer next door. So, 8 whenever he goes in -- and I'm probably going to try -- we 9 haven't worked out the logistics; that's why I'm kind of -- 10 I don't know what to say right now. Theory number one is 11 let the convict -- excuse me, parolee walk in with his 12 parole officer. Parole officer says, "It says in your 13 conditions of parole you do report, you do pay..." dah-dah- 14 dah-dah-dah. He walks out of that room right into our room, 15 so it's fresh on his mind; this parole officer told him he 16 had to do it, and then we'll sign them up. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What is the current 18 procedure? 19 MR. ALFORD: Right now, it's -- they report 20 to Parole in Ingram, Parole tells them to come down here to 21 the courthouse and see us. Some of them do, some of them do 22 not. And then what we do in return, Parole faxes us their 23 current parole list every month. We go through it and say 24 you know, this one made it, this one didn't make it, so 25 forth and so on, and it's a revolving door. Hopefully, this 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 51 1 will kind of help slam the door shut a little bit sooner. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, the only 3 difference would be is that you would be there when the 4 parolee meets with the parole officer? 5 MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir. And we would have 6 that eye-to-eye contact. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that is here in 8 Kerr County? 9 MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir, it is. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As opposed to meeting 11 him at the second gate at Huntsville or wherever. 12 MR. ALFORD: Yes, sir. And the Huntsville 13 doesn't look real good. I talked to one of the wardens of 14 that unit yesterday, and I would really rather try the 15 Ingram deal first. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So there wouldn't be 18 much need for -- 19 MR. ALFORD: And, again, we don't have that 20 detail worked out yet, but I have an idea. What I'd like to 21 do, for argument purposes, is to leave the 1,200 to where it 22 is during some of the budget process, 'cause it's my 23 understanding that -- that y'all meet for the next couple 24 weeks over this, and maybe I can report back to the Judge; 25 say, "Okay, we have this worked out. We don't need the 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 52 1 1,200. Let's try this," or something. But, as of today, 2 I'd like to leave the 1,200 to where it is. I don't want to 3 cut all my strings at one time, so to speak. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's probably wise. 5 I just had this picture in my mind of you sitting down there 6 at this little desk at Huntsville, and there are hundreds 7 and maybe thousands of guys that go through that door every 8 day. It rolls around. 9 MR. ALFORD: There was 300 from 10 a.m. to 10 4 p.m. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 300? 12 MR. ALFORD: 300 a day. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Every day? 14 MR. ALFORD: Seven days a week. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That come walking out? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's scary. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is scary. 18 MR. ALFORD: Yeah. That's -- whenever I 19 called and talked to the warden the other day, what he said 20 and everything, it was kind of interesting. If nothing 21 else, it was educational to go down that avenue. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Brad, I like the 23 explanation, but I'd rather take a different approach. I'd 24 rather reduce to it 300. If you have a reason to go back 25 up, we can go back up in the next week. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 53 1 MR. ALFORD: To the 1,200? The -- that -- 2 well, if I can argue that point, it's $172 and some-odd 3 cents in travel expense alone to go to Huntsville. It's an 4 18-hour round trip drive, so you're looking at probably two 5 meals. Okay, no use arguing. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not if you go to Ingram. 7 MR. ALFORD: I'm not going to argue. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Travel allowance in the 9 county also goes back to what I talked about earlier. You 10 know, this position was created when travel was included in 11 salaries, so if we're going to start adding a -- a good 12 travel item for in-county travel, we need to be consistent. 13 But this is out-of-county travel. 14 MR. ALFORD: I don't think this particular 15 department has travel in it, 'cause it just came -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, that's what I just 17 said. 18 MR. ALFORD: Anyway, that's fine, however 19 y'all want to work it out. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, you know, I think we 21 need to be consistent. If it's out-of-county travel, you 22 know, 300, or it needs to go in salaries or out of salaries; 23 just the same all across the board. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Seems like such a 25 small thing for -- the possibility of leaving this little 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 54 1 issue of you coming back and -- and -- 2 MR. ALFORD: Right. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- going to lower it 4 at a later time, it seems silly to think about, you know, 5 but that's -- that happens a lot. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We won't -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just never -- we never 8 get to that point to where we -- 9 MR. ALFORD: Okay, that's fine. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- lower it, so I 11 think, all right, lower it and then come back up if we need 12 to. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other -- 14 MR. ALFORD: Well, one other comment I'd like 15 to make. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the number 17 going to be? 18 MR. ALFORD: 300. The only other thing I'd 19 like to say is, this department has some type of dealings 20 with bringing in right at a quarter of a million dollars 21 last year in the first six months. And I think for -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Current budget year? 23 MR. ALFORD: No, sir, first -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Last year? 25 MR. ALFORD: October 1st through April 30th 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 55 1 of 2002/2003, so it would be current budget year. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 3 MR. ALFORD: It was, like, $263,000. I'm 4 saying -- not saying we collected that. I'm just saying 5 somehow we were involved in that type of money coming back 6 in. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I like the idea of the 8 department. Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to eliminate 9 the department. I just want to reduce the travel item. But 10 one thing I would like -- and I don't know how you -- we 11 could do this, but it would be interesting for me to find 12 out, I guess, what we were collecting kind of before on an 13 annual basis, not worrying about old stuff. We know we had 14 a lot of backlog that was, you know, still being worked 15 through, but as to -- I think it's more efficient to have an 16 individual or a department doing this county-wide, and I 17 think we're getting a -- probably my gut feeling is a higher 18 percentage, but I'd like to see the stats. 19 MR. ALFORD: Tommy and I had talked about it 20 this morning, and Thea and I have talked about that in the 21 past, about there's really no solid way to come up with what 22 it used to be versus what it is now. The only thing we try 23 to do is, from my department being underneath you, is every 24 so often, every quarter, I run numbers and make sure that we 25 are either at the same or have increased, 'cause there's no 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 56 1 reason to decrease, as far as I'm concerned. Although the 2 economy's bad, our judicial system's still pretty solid, so 3 that's kind of how we judge that. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: To follow up on that 5 and give you a chance to brag about yourself, this function 6 costs us $80,000 a year. If we eliminated the function, 7 would our collections go down by more than $80,000 a year? 8 And the second half of that question is, do other counties 9 outsource this? Do other counties hire a collection firm to 10 do it instead of using County people? 11 MR. ALFORD: Some do, some don't. That was a 12 very sticky topic two years ago. I believe there's a lot of 13 lawsuits involving that right now. But, to answer your 14 question, I truly can not look you in the eyes and say, oh, 15 yeah, if you eliminate it, you'd lose, you know, thousands 16 of dollars a year. I'm not going to try to do that. On the 17 outsourcing part of it -- Commissioner Baldwin, help me, if 18 you will. I think they were, like, 30 percent off the top? 19 Is what they were charging for out -- you know, so 20 outsourcing -- 21 MS. PIEPER: It's 35 now. 22 MR. ALFORD: 35 now. So, I think we're 23 probably, county-wide, still doing a pretty good job. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Of course, the real 25 question would be, if we paid somebody 35 percent, it sounds 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 57 1 like an awful lot of money. Would we have more money than 2 we do today? 3 MR. ALFORD: The -- 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Got to subtract 5 $80,000 from that 35 percent. 6 MR. ALFORD: I really don't know how far to 7 go with this. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It doesn't have to 9 be answered now. Just -- 10 MS. PIEPER: May I answer that, to a point? 11 We tried that with -- what was did name of the company? 12 MS. SOVIL: Out of Austin. 13 MS. PIEPER: Yes, and it did not work. It 14 was more confusing than it was helpful. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why? 16 MS. PIEPER: Why? Because they weren't 17 collecting the money. And a lot of times, when we received 18 money, it would be in the wrong case number, so we'd have to 19 call them several times trying to figure out the correct 20 case number, the correct person that the money went with. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think one of the key 22 issues is -- is that those team of lawyers over there just 23 weren't aggressive for us. They did not work for us, was 24 the whole thing. This department is aggressive for us. I 25 mean, their whole focus is the betterment of Kerr County. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 58 1 And those guys could -- 2 MS. PIEPER: Right. The other ones -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They couldn't care 4 less. 5 MS. PIEPER: -- want their money and that's 6 it. 7 MR. ALFORD: That was the part I was trying 8 to tiptoe around. It's my understanding that they get their 9 35 percent off the top. What comes in the county after 10 that, you know, I don't know. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What was your last 12 full year of collections amount? 13 MR. ALFORD: I don't know. I had that 14 whenever the new Commissioners come in. I don't remember 15 what it was now. They -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This year, you said 263? 17 MR. ALFORD: 263. Historically, it's right 18 around half a million dollars, I think, is what it is. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm not questioning 20 whether or not you're capable or efficient. I'm just saying 21 this is one of the few examples of a function in county 22 government that's a revenue-producing function. We're 23 investing $80,000 a year. Any way we can leverage that and 24 collect more, that's a good thing. 25 MR. ALFORD: And we're opening -- that's 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 59 1 where the phone system came in. We're trying -- we're 2 always looking, you know. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The County part on 4 that, though, is that if you take a half million dollars, 5 you pay the current outsourcing fee of 35 percent, you've 6 paid $175,000 to raise $500,000. Our costs are fixed at 7 $80,000 to raise the same half million. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And we would 9 willingly do that, pay that 35 percent, if that number would 10 be up to a million dollars a year. This is -- this is a 11 clear-cut, return-on-investment business decision. So, I'm 12 just saying if we can get more for the $80,000, or if we 13 invest a little more, we ought to do that. We ought to do 14 it. 15 MR. ALFORD: And that's -- the Judge knows we 16 have an open-door policy to ideas, you know. And if y'all 17 come up with something, y'all see something on TV -- we 18 thought about throwing the old TV parties, you know. Come 19 down to the courthouse; we'll give you free TV, you know. 20 We've thought of a lot of different schemes. We didn't go 21 that far, but anyway, thank you, gentlemen. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 23 MR. ALFORD: I appreciate it. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item is volunteer fire 25 departments. You'll find that on Page 71, gentlemen. In 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 60 1 addition to having the volunteer fire departments, that page 2 has the fire contract with the City of Kerrville, and you'll 3 note there's a recommendation there also. Anybody have any 4 questions about that? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: My only comment, one 6 of the volunteer firefighters from Divide called me some 7 weeks ago -- I can't remember his name, but Commissioner 8 Baldwin may know who the fire chief is out there. And he 9 told me they were in the process of resurrecting that 10 department and wanted to know what the contract was 11 currently, and indicated to me that they would like to 12 reinstate that contract. We sent him a copy of the standard 13 volunteer fire department contract. So, what I'm getting 14 around to saying is, we may need another $11,000 here. We 15 need to find out. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somebody refresh my 17 memory. Where is the Castle Lake Volunteer Fire Department? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Jonathan? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That is -- remember the 20 -- the portion of Kerr County that used to be in your 21 precinct that's now in my precinct, where Mr. John Mohar 22 lives? That fire department. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Down Bear Creek, down 24 the tip -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That fire department 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 61 1 covers that area. I talked to some of the residents down 2 there, and this fire department, about probably 25 percent 3 of their geographic boundary -- primary geographic boundary 4 is in Kerr County. And we -- I just feel that we ought to 5 include it, to help fund it a little bit, 'cause they're 6 certainly doing a service. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are they in Bandera? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Physically located in 9 Bandera County, right across the county line. Very close to 10 the county line, actually, the volunteer fire department is. 11 And it's similar to the situation in Junction; they're 12 comparable-type situations. Just a -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'd indicated in our 14 last discussion about volunteer fire department contracts 15 that it would be our intention to increase this allocation. 16 At what point do we want to consider that? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now. I mean, I think we 18 should increase them up, if at all possible, you know, 19 $1,000 each, with the exception of the bottom three. I 20 think that this is, you know, money well spent. Of course, 21 we're getting a heck of a bargain if we go up $1,000. If 22 this stayed the same, this will be -- would be the third 23 year it would be consistent. And I think that it's -- 24 certainly, their costs increase like everybody else. I 25 would be in favor of raising all of them to $12,000, and I 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 62 1 think if Divide does get started, that should be included. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I support that. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I was going to 4 go 15, but 12's -- 12 is fine. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can go 12,5. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 12,5. Would you go 7 13? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 13. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like 13. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 13's a good number. 12 And if we can remember, that's always a place -- if there's 13 cutting needs to be done, there's a place to go back to the 14 original contract. Judge, let me ask you a question. 15 Doesn't have anything to do with the actual numbers, but 16 it -- those bottom three, what kind of an agreement or 17 contract will we have with those people? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All of those are actually 19 out-of-county fire departments, and what you'd have is an 20 interlocal agreement with them. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just like Comfort. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They come when they're 23 called? Or -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: No, they'd actually be given a 25 fire area, I think, and that's -- that's what they 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 63 1 anticipate. Just like -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah, that's 3 right. Like Junction. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Tierra Linda is out here, and 5 it's looking at the Northwest Hills. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like that. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That area out there. Well, 8 they've got some good equipment out there at Tierra Linda. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They do. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: They've really got a pretty 11 first-class department out there. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, when the -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Junction would be handling the 14 northwest corner of the county of 83, that area out in 15 there, Y.O. and so forth. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, when Northwest 17 Hills calls the city or calls 911 with a fire, through our 18 interlocal agreement, the 911 people are going to know to 19 tone them out or call them, Tierra Linda? Is that -- I'm a 20 little bit scared of that part of it right there, unless we 21 have a real firm understanding of what everybody does and 22 who's the players and all that. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Certainly, you'd have to put 24 that mechanism into place. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Put it in the 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 64 1 agreement. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know how, 3 but it's working somehow now. Tierra Linda is routinely 4 coming into Kerr County to fight fires. I don't know the 5 details of how they get toned out. And the other thing, 6 I -- I checked with someone, and -- I think it was the 7 County Attorney, but somebody told me that the -- using the 8 same contract form for this instead of the local -- 9 interlocal agreement was the right way to go. We need to 10 check that out. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it's the same as 12 Comfort in Kendall County -- and they -- I don't know how it 13 works either. They get toned out and they respond. I mean, 14 they're automatically toned out for any calls in eastern 15 Kerr County. I'm not real sure of the mechanism, but I 16 think we need to make sure that these three new ones are -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Plugged in somewhere. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- plugged into that 19 somewhere. And I suspect they do it by phone exchange. All 20 -- all of the people that are served by Castle Lake have a 21 460 or 589 phone exchange, which is Bandera. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I noticed that 23 this proposed budget does not include the requested $25,000 24 additional by the City of Kerrville, and I'm okay with that, 25 provided that we know -- you know, and we know that as a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 65 1 result of our unwillingness to increase the contract for the 2 second straight year in a row, we -- we will not anticipate 3 any evolution in services by Kerrville departments. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We increased it last year 5 $25,000. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know that; I know 7 we did. I'm just saying, as a result of not doing it, we 8 understand that there's a -- the level of service will 9 likewise continue as it has been. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you asking me to make that 12 representation to you, Commissioner? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I can not, and will not. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How would we be able 16 to ascertain that? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That's -- I'd suggest you 18 connect with the City Council, the City of Kerrville. I 19 don't think this Court can justify an increase of $25,000 on 20 that fire contract, in view of the information that we 21 obtained over at the joint meeting and in view of the 22 information which I provided to each of you that was 23 provided to me by the Fire Chief concerning the 24 out-of-county activity. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not representing 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 66 1 a case to make the $25,000. I'm just asking the question, 2 can the County anticipate the same level of service? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, they -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I anticipate it. Whether or 5 not it's delivered or not -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They either sign the 7 contract or they don't. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean, it's kind of 10 spelled out in that contract of what -- what they'll do and 11 what they won't do. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess we'll wait 13 and see. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I think you've 15 done the right thing, Judge. Again, I appreciate that. I 16 -- looking at the numbers that you gave us that you've 17 received from the Fire Chief, I'm in agreement with it. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more on the volunteer fire 19 departments or fire contract? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just an observation. 21 I would expect, with this -- what I see as good treatment, 22 that that issue about reimbursement for breaking tires and 23 things like that will go away. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: For now. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 67 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item is Health 2 Department. I -- I find mine on Page 60. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What do you mean, you 4 find yours on Page 60? Are you operating from a different 5 document than we have? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I sure hope not. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me too. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I only have one question 9 or comment, to start with on this, anyway; that's U.G.R.A. 10 You know, and I think it's -- this is a hard one to address, 11 and maybe it's going to be better to postpone it until after 12 our next Commissioners Court meeting. I see -- first of 13 all, I think we need to figure out what rules we'll at least 14 get to a public hearing on, which we haven't been able to do 15 yet. And then I think -- I think Commissioner Nicholson and 16 I have met with -- and are familiar with U.G.R.A.'s budget 17 and their numbers, but I think -- I don't think the Court is 18 necessarily, but I think that needs to be -- we need to 19 discuss that as a whole. I think that number needs to 20 reflect what we think it's going to cost exactly. And, you 21 know, U.G.R.A. gave us their number. I don't see that we 22 can arbitrarily cut it without getting them to agree as 23 to -- or at least for us to recommend back to them, "You 24 need to cut it here." So, I think that -- you know, I don't 25 know that we can do anything on that number necessarily 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 68 1 today, but I think that there needs to be a big asterisk on 2 that one, and it needs to be the real number that we -- you 3 know, "we" being U.G.R.A. and this Commissioners Court -- 4 think it's going to take to operate that contract. And it's 5 -- and it's going to be related to the rules we adopt, 6 because this is -- that number is driven largely by fees. 7 And if we do -- you know, what we do with Section 10 will 8 determine what those fees are. So, it's kind of -- there's 9 a lot of things that kind of have to go in order for that to 10 work. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the 67,000, 12 isn't that what you think it's going to take? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why'd you put that 15 number in there? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't. That's the 17 Judge's number. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a request. 19 Judge put 50. He cut it from 67 to 50. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: If I were using actual 21 existing facts, I'd have put 30 down there. Maybe that's 22 what we need to put down. Maybe that will drive the train. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think the -- I think 24 you're right. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If the Court -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 69 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And go up if we need 2 to. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to -- you want to 4 move for that direction? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do. I think that's 6 a wise thing to do, is put the 30 in there and then let's 7 come back with a -- the real number. Unless it's 67. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The number -- you know, I 9 mean, it's -- it's easier -- maybe the staff have a lot more 10 information on how these numbers come about. It's going to 11 be a big unknown this year, 'cause if we're going to proceed 12 along the -- the direction that the committee appointed is, 13 this area that's in U.G.R.A.'s area is going to be kept 14 track of; the area -- the County's area is going to be kept 15 track of. The portions will be divided out of the total 16 program. If it is a 50-50 split on workload, it appears 17 it's going to be a $64,000 number this year, you know. And 18 that's probably, you know, the best we have -- the best 19 number we have right now, is $64,000. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Said another way, if 21 this Court and the U.G.R.A. Board adopt the recommendations 22 of the committee, the cost to go to the County would be 23 somewhere between $60,00 and $70,000, best guess. We -- we 24 won't know until the end of the year. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is based on a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 70 1 50-50 split of current budget, or the reasonable facsimile 2 of the current budget. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's a lot 4 guesswork going into that. We don't -- we can't forecast 5 it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, but my point is, 7 real-world facts right now, we're not there. And though 8 efforts have been made to get there within the last month or 9 two, it doesn't appear to me that we're any closer to being 10 there than we were two months ago. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think we are. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I think we're going to vote on 13 it pretty soon, and U.G.R.A. is going to vote. I can't 14 predict whether or not it will pass either place. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it's been to the 16 Court three times, you know, trying to get to the next step 17 of getting to a public hearing. And, at the same time, the 18 contract numbers, you know, are being worked out. I just 19 think I'd rather leave -- I think 64 is the best number we 20 have now. And I think if we put 30 in there, it appears we 21 have more money than we -- we think we're going to have. 22 You know, I don't see how it's going to be less than 64, 23 unless we go in and, you know, make a decision on the Court 24 that we're going to have less inspectors or do less work. 25 And, in which case, I don't think U.G.R.A. would go along 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 71 1 with the contract, and we'll be stuck with -- we'll -- or 2 have our own department; maybe they'll keep their own 3 department, which we've been trying to avoid. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: There's a high 5 probability that it will either be somewhere around $64,000 6 or we'll have it back. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm willing to put 64 8 down, based on your best estimate. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that -- that's 10 okay. I mean, we can do -- it's going to change. So, that 11 goes from 30 to 64. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It may go to 100-some if 13 we take it back. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is a real 16 likelihood, still. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any more on the -- on 18 the Health Department items? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, First 20 Responder Coordinator. I'm assuming that salary increase is 21 due to the recommendation of the City? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Those -- those bottom two 23 numbers there, the one increase and the one decrease are as 24 a result of the joint workshop that we had with the City. 25 Those numbers are as per that workshop. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 72 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Well, I'm 2 still a little hot under the collar about that, increasing 3 his salary. And, if you remember, the note in their 4 presentation says that we want to increase this thing 5 because this guy's going to start teaching First Responder 6 classes soon. We have been paying someone to teach First 7 Responder classes for six or seven years, and now -- and now 8 we're going to give the guy a raise, and we're not -- we're 9 not sure if he's a teacher or not. So, I'm -- I think at 10 least pare it back to where it was, or put a notation in 11 here that if -- if and when he does receive his teaching 12 certificate, present it to this Commissioners Court and his 13 salary can go up at that point. But I'm not going to vote 14 to give the guy any more raise if he -- I mean, if he's not 15 doing what we've been paying him to do the whole time. That 16 doesn't make sense to me. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't -- I don't have that 18 information in front of me at this point, Commissioner, but 19 I do have some recollection that, just recently, that he 20 received some sort of certification, and it wasn't going to 21 be required that someone from the outside be brought in, and 22 that the current coordinator would be able to do this 23 teaching. I seem to have some recollection of that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Soon. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: My recollection was that he 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 73 1 had just gotten it or was just about to get it. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, just about to 3 get it, soon. But we've been hearing that how many years? 4 A long time. A long time. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have no problem with 6 paring it back or putting it contingent upon -- you know, 7 maybe we can tie it to teaching classes. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What would that be? 9 The current budget number, $9,675? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Or -- or leave 11 it at the $10,831, and when he -- yeah, pay him the $9,675 12 until he produces a certificate. That's what I would do if 13 I was running this joint. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, for budgeting purposes, 15 as you mentioned a while ago, if we put the $10,831, it's 16 going to stay that way. So, you want to go back to the 17 $9,675 and -- I'm just trying to see which way you want to 18 go here. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I know. 20 MS. SOVIL: You could pay him for the classes 21 he taught. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that seems to me 23 to be more complicated, even. But -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We could put in the 25 $10,831, and then look at the -- we have a contract, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 74 1 correct? With the City? 2 MS. SOVIL: Not for First Responders. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe we should get a 4 contract and make the payments contingent, you know, on 5 performance. That makes it even more complicated. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How can we do what I 7 want to do, Tommy? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: We don't pay him directly, so 9 we -- we're invoiced by the City and we reimburse the City, 10 so we're kind of stuck with -- with what we agree to pay the 11 City. So -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, this is -- this 13 document right here is our agreement that we're going to -- 14 what we're going to pay. How we vote on the County budget 15 is what we -- unless we have a contract, which we do not. 16 But this document right here, to me, is the contract. What 17 we agree to pay the guy is what we're going to pay them, not 18 what they want. I don't know. I just -- that's just the 19 way I feel about the thing. And, I mean, we're going to 20 give a guy a raise that's not even doing what we've been 21 paying him to do. See, I have a hard time getting my mind 22 around that. It doesn't work at my house, and should have a 23 hard time working here. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What number? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't we just use 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 75 1 the old number, and when we advise the City we're not going 2 to give $25,000 for a fire contract increase, we're not 3 going to give them the increase here. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I can give you a pretty 5 good guarantee to make them come to the table, if you want 6 that. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's kind of what we 8 want. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Zero. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Zero. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $9,675 is what I want. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody have any serious 13 objection to that? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have one more question 16 on this page before we move on. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Shoot away. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I should know this, but 19 Health Officer salary. Who is that person? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Solid Waste. 21 MS. SOVIL: No. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Health Officer is -- 24 MS. SOVIL: He's the doctor that we have in 25 case we have an epidemic out at the jail. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 76 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. I knew it was 2 someone we were paying for not doing anything. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That's been a pretty level 4 thing for years. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who is that human 6 being? 7 MS. SOVIL: Who is it, Tommy? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't know. (Laughter.) 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Some doctor. 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: Dr. Parvin, I think. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Say it again? 12 MS. NEMEC: Dr. Parvin. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true, he hangs 15 out at the jail. 16 MS. NEMEC: He's on the payroll; we just mail 17 his check. I've never seen him. I don't know. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does he ever do 19 anything? 20 MS. NEMEC: I have no idea. 21 MS. SOVIL: But we have to keep -- we have to 22 have it. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that it, gentlemen? 24 (Discussion off the record.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I note that it's about 12:20. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 77 1 What's the consensus of the Court about wanting to break for 2 lunch? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: We're probably going to be 5 running late when we come back here, whenever that is, so 6 it's not going to make any difference whether we do it now 7 or later. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is the scheduling not 9 changed, so that 1:30 is going to be Maintenance? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That is the schedule. Because 11 of the unavailability of Road and Bridge administrative 12 personnel, we've swapped the Maintenance into that slot and 13 put Road and Bridge people into the Maintenance slot, which 14 is -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, we have a 16 couple people in the audience who are here under 17 County-Sponsored. Could we at least let them make their 18 pitch for their particular County-sponsored activity, and 19 then -- so they don't have to be tying up the rest of the 20 day? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I assume you're speaking of 22 Sherry and Bill Taylor? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that has to do 24 with Economic Development, under County-Sponsored. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any objection, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 78 1 gentlemen, to taking that one up right quickly so that they 2 can do their thing? That will bring us to Page 64. Thank 3 you for bringing that to my attention, Commissioner 4 Williams. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, is it the Trapper 6 contract? 7 MS. CUNNINGHAM: No, it's that doctor 8 contract. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whoever he is. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: As long as you mail the check, 11 you don't care where it goes; they'll take it. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is KPUB buying lunch 13 today? 14 MR. TAYLOR: We can do that. Commissioner, 15 we come before you today to request that you consider 16 another contract for next year for 2003/2004. There's been 17 a partnership between the -- public/private partnership 18 between the entities since -- it goes back to 1991. And, of 19 course, now KPUB has been involved in this, and the City and 20 County, and we appreciate what you've done with us in the 21 past. And we -- we -- bottom line is, we'd like to have the 22 contract renewed on the same basis of what it has been last 23 year. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: You're speaking of Economic 25 Development? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 79 1 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No problems. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have a 4 problem with it. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I've got it plugged in for 6 that. If -- if they don't get too mad at me, maybe they'll 7 follow what I'm recommending. 8 MR. TAYLOR: We appreciate your 9 consideration. 10 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Thanks for jumping this up 11 so we -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was easy, right? 13 MS. CUNNINGHAM: That it? Well, let me just 14 take a minute, because I might not have the chance to come 15 before you again, and tell you how -- what a nice privilege 16 it has been to work with all of you, and see you around. 17 Few more weeks. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Countdown time? 19 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Six weeks. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Six weeks. 21 MS. CUNNINGHAM: But there's some personal 22 days in there, here and there, so... You might want to come 23 to -- our Chamber banquet's going to be on Tuesday, 24 September the 16th, and we're going to be over at Inn of the 25 Hills this year; be a nice celebration, and we'd like to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 80 1 have you there, too. So, anyway, it's been fun. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much, Sherry. 4 We appreciate you being here. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thanks for all you've 6 done over the years. 7 MS. CUNNINGHAM: You're welcome. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill, do we just sign 9 your name to the check when we go to lunch here in a minute? 10 MR. TAYLOR: Sure, that'd be fine. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or KPUB. 12 MS. CUNNINGHAM: Thank you for jumping us 13 ahead. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. You're 15 welcome. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What I'm saying, I think 17 we -- some of the ones left fall under almost the 18 maintenance part, Parks and Maintenance, which is all kind 19 of pretty interrelated, so I think we should just -- I don't 20 think -- and I don't think Maintenance is going to take as 21 long as Road and Bridge would have, so I think that we could 22 come back at 1:30, finish what we need to, and be online for 23 the Sheriff at 2:30. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what I was 25 checking to see, if y'all needed to bump it up or what. I 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 81 1 knew there were some changes. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We'll stand in recess, 4 then, until 1:30. 5 (Recess taken from 12:28 p.m. to 1:30 p.m.) 6 - - - - - - - - - - 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call the meeting back 8 to order -- the workshop, budget workshop that we recessed 9 at a little before 12:30. It's a few minutes after 1:30 10 now. We're back in session. Commissioner Letz? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the schedule, it 12 appears to me that two items were left -- or two departments 13 that I think need to be discussed. Others were certainly 14 left off; they may need to be discussed as well, but two 15 that I think need to be added at some point are Technology 16 department -- I can't remember what -- whatever that 17 department -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Information. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Information Technology, 20 and Environmental Health. These are two that I neglected to 21 put on the list that I sent to you. And there may be some 22 others that I left off, too. There's some of them that we 23 don't have much influence on one way or the other. I didn't 24 see a whole lot of point in -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Didn't we just do 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 82 1 Environmental Health? 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: I'm prepared to do 3 Environmental Health right now, as part of my -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: If y'all want to. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It wasn't specifically 7 listed out. It was -- we had -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Still need 9 technology, though. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But technology is not 11 included. Anyway, just a comment. At some point, we may 12 want to, you know, discuss those as well. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's first complete 14 what we had before us. The next item -- I assume we're 15 through with Nondepartmental -- we move on to Permanent 16 Improvements. That I find on Page 115. You're not going to 17 find anything there, but that's where I find that. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like it. Zero. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 115? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Page 115, mm-hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Oh, okay. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody have anything they 23 wish to offer in connection with Permanent Improvements? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got to find 115 25 first. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 83 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's right after 114. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The one item that may 5 need to be put on here, may not, is the Hill Country Youth 6 Exhibit Center. But that's under -- we have a separate -- I 7 believe a separate line item for that on discussion. Maybe 8 it -- no, we don't. It comes under Permanent Improvements. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's on there. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is the time. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Two different ways to approach 12 the Exhibit Center. One is on Permanent Improvements side 13 and under this item. The other is the Maintenance side that 14 Mr. Holekamp's in a position -- that's one of his budget 15 schedules that he's going to address with us shortly. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just pointing out, 17 that's the -- I mean, I agree, there's nothing on here right 18 now, but that is something that we do need to discuss during 19 the workshop process. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, if we do, you 21 know, come back with our study number 19 and decide that we 22 need to do something out there, then we're going to blow 23 through an entire 'nother year without having any money to 24 do it. If we're going to do something, we got to put it in 25 here. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 84 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. That's why I -- 2 I'm -- well, the comment -- I mean, this is -- in the 3 budget, it's got to go under this item if we do any kind of 4 construction. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we're going to do 7 repairs, that goes under the -- the other budget. I don't 8 have a recommendation. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm listening. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just tossing it out. 11 If we're going to do something, I mean, the -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm listening. Last 13 time I made a motion, it died for lack of a second, so -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I think we're dying for lack 16 of a motion at this point, even though we can't take 17 motions. But, anybody have anything that they want to offer 18 up as a suggestion here? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. I know what I 20 want to do out there, but I'm sorry, I don't have a number 21 to plug in here. Of course, that's a question. That's the 22 issue on the table. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe we could start with 24 what you want to do. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hmm? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 85 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe we can start with 2 what we want to do. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Well, I'm still 4 on the building a new barn behind the Exhibit Hall. New hog 5 barn, wider and longer. Metal building. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Higher. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Higher. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Paid for by? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not going to talk 10 -- I don't know. I mean, you got -- you're talking about 11 plugging a number in here. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But, I mean, 13 somewhat related. I mean, you know, our options are 14 reserves, which we don't have, a bond issue, or grants. 15 Well, we can do another bond issue. You know, I don't see 16 any other way to fund it other than a bond issue, 17 personally. Or -- or someone coming along and giving us a 18 couple million dollars. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Gets us back to where 20 we were last time. Funding. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So far, I hear a barn, 22 bigger and longer. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bigger and better 24 barn. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all. And maybe 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 86 1 the bond issue's for a bigger and taller barn. I mean, I 2 think that -- you know, I think that -- you know, I'm 3 willing to approach it any -- any number of different ways. 4 And that's -- if I hear a way, okay, let's go with that, 5 then we'll hang it right now with a bigger barn. And if 6 we're going to go towards a bond issue, then we proceed on. 7 If that's the way that we're going to try to raise the 8 money, then that sends us down one, you know, line of 9 thinking and process. That means we got to put some money, 10 get ready for an election and some plans and things like 11 that. If we're going to do nothing, we don't need money 12 anywhere. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: If we do a bond issue, do we 14 need to plug something in here? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think so. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think so. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we need to plug money 18 into other parts of the budget to be able to do a bond 19 issue. We'd need to know what we're going to vote on, have 20 election expenses, which comes to -- what did the last one 21 cost? About, what, $15,000, $20,000? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Twelve. 23 MS. PIEPER: About 12, I think. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Twelve. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Twelve something, 12-plus. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 87 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Twelve-plus. So, I mean, 2 you know, if you try to do a bond issue in the next year, we 3 at least need to put $12,000 in that budget. But, I mean, I 4 think it's a -- you know, we at least need to set a 5 direction. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We tried to do that a 7 couple-three weeks ago; we didn't get very far. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That was for a specific 9 issue, I mean, going out and hiring an architect. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's find out what 11 it is we need to do. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think -- I think 13 Buster thinks we need a barn. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we need a 15 barn. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm at the same 17 place we were last time we had this discussion, which is not 18 far from where Buster is. I don't think we need a new 19 structure. I'd like to take bids to fix the electrical, 20 take bids to fix the roof and air-conditioning and whatever 21 else needs fixed. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But no barn? 23 (Commissioner Nicholson shook his head.) 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: My thinking is we're 25 -- we should put it back in good shape, the same -- same 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 88 1 facility that we inherited. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I dislike the idea of 3 pouring good money after bad. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't mind -- I mean, I 5 don't mind fixing up, but I think we need a new barn. I'm 6 not going to -- I mean, I don't see any point in spending a 7 bunch of money out there if we're not going to improve the 8 facility, and you can't improve the facility without 9 building a new barn behind the Exhibit Hall, in my mind. 10 However you go on the improvements, you know, to me there's 11 some basic things -- electrical, air-conditioning, heating, 12 and roof -- that have to be done to the Exhibit Hall to make 13 it usable, or just not use that portion. Build a new barn. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Déjà vu all over 15 again. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't see how we can 17 possibly get to a point to where we're going to put a dollar 18 figure in this particular line today. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, but I just think we 20 need to start a direction if we're going to. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Can't drag on 22 forever. Something -- someday we're going to have to decide 23 what -- what is the future of the Ag Barn. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And if we're going to do 25 it in this budget year, make that decision, we've got to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 89 1 have money somewhere in the budget to do it. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if we're talking about a 3 bond issue, that's a matter we're going to address with the 4 County Clerk in her Election Expense budget. And if we're 5 talking about something other than a bond issue, then, of 6 course, if we're going to expend some funds out of the 7 budget or off the budget without a bond issue, well, then, 8 you're right, this is where it needs to be done. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I -- it appears to 10 me we're not going to do anything for the next 12 months, so 11 let's move on. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Next item is Parks. I 13 find Parks under -- looks like 98. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 98. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: You'll find something very 16 similar there to what we just looked at, as a matter of 17 fact. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Whoa. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're not doing Parks 20 this year? 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: That's not my Parks, is it? 22 Mine's on Page 44, isn't it? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, it's not your Parks. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yours is maintenance. 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: That's a whole different 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 90 1 Parks. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: These are capital 3 improvement-type situations at parks. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are we at 98 or 99? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 98. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't request 7 $15,000 for Lions Park to begin with. The request was 8 $1,500. See, we just saved $13,500 right there. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's part of a new 10 barn. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, $1,500 is the 13 number? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I put in. 15 I didn't put $15,000. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: That must be a typo. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Must be. One too 18 many ciphers. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: I pressed the zero too many 20 times. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In the -- none of them 22 are in my precinct, so -- I mean, directly. Ingram Lake, 23 that money is in there -- isn't that port-a-potty money? Or 24 is that a different -- 25 MS. SOVIL: That comes out of -- not there. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 91 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What did we spend? 2 MS. SOVIL: Port-a-potty money comes out of 3 -- it comes out of Commissioners Court budget. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What did we spend? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Port-a-pottys aren't 6 there either. In fact, they're at the dam. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is this? 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the name, though, 10 is the Dam Park. I think that's what this park is called. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's down a mile and 12 it's the boat -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where the boat ramp 14 is, right. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It just looks to me 18 like it's about an acre. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Talking about there by 20 Chili's? 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No, this is on past 22 the dam. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ingram. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. Out at Ingram, 25 okay. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 92 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: All I see there is a 2 -- in terms of facilities is a boat ramp and barbecue pit. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I think part of that's 6 privately owned in that area. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Right next door to 8 it, yeah. But looks like we've got an acre, maybe. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, and everything 10 that's done in there is Road and -- I would think Road and 11 Bridge-type work. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We've had the 13 prisoners out there. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Driving surface, that 15 kind of thing. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, two of the 17 three items -- line items are in my precinct. And I did put 18 the $40,000 in for Flat Rock Lake Park, because we do need 19 restroom facilities, and the amount of dollars that are 20 still available from the L.C.R.A. grant are insufficient to 21 do that. I got approval the other day from L.C.R.A. to 22 expend the remaining dollars, which are about $15,000 and 23 change, of the current grant. So, at the very least, I 24 suspect we need to amend the budget to allow us to do that. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $15,000? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 93 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Fifteen and change. 2 I can get you the exact number, but it's 15 and change which 3 remains. But that still leaves us with a need to do a 4 restroom. We have insufficient L.C.R.A. funds to do that, 5 and it's still a necessary item. More than likely, the 6 $15,000 we'll restore in here and use it from L.C.R.A. would 7 go probably for some picnic tables or things of that nature 8 scattered around the park. In terms of Lions Park, that's 9 down from where it was to 15, and I have been systematically 10 putting in picnic tables over there, and probably have an 11 opportunity -- I'm doing one right now, which is in the 12 current budget year, and that could probably go by the 13 boards for next year; take that out totally. But I think we 14 need to think seriously about Flat Rock Lake Park. We also 15 have to think seriously in the future about how we're going 16 to bridge the main section of Flat Rock Lake Park. We have 17 a footbridge -- there's a footbridge which was washed out by 18 the flood a year ago. And how much money did we get from 19 FEMA for that, Glenn? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: Approximately $6,000. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: About $6,000. I'm 22 not sure $6,000 will replace it. Where is that $6,000? Is 23 it anywhere in here? 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: It's in -- it's in the Major 25 Repairs in the 666 budget, the Ag Barn budget. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 94 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the Ag Barn 2 budget? 3 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes. Because we -- when they 4 did it, we put it and the building repairs that we had out 5 there -- all the FEMA went into that one budget. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the rest of 7 that $6,600 going for a new barn -- Ag Barn. I think we 8 ought to put it where it belongs, in Parks. 9 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, when they -- when they 10 deposited it, I think the Auditor's office had decided to do 11 it that way when those funds came in, because they came in 12 in one check. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, we can 14 break that down, can't we, Tommy? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I was unaware that we still 17 had $15,000 left out of the L.C.R.A. grant; that is still 18 alive and viable and usable. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm excited to know that. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's only alive and 22 viable and usable as a result of Commissioner Letz telling 23 me that there was a question about it, and I called L.C.R.A. 24 and got approval for us to spend that down to take it out. 25 So, I can get you the exact number; I got it there on my 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 95 1 desk, but it's alive and viable. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: L.C.R.A.'s worked with 3 us, and we had proposed to spend that money on restrooms 4 this year. They were aware of it. They extended it through 5 this year, and I told Commissioner Williams -- I said, you 6 know, "Verify that it's still available to us," and the 7 answer is yes. So, certainly, I think $15,000 goes back 8 into that grant, the money that we'll use. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: From the 160 that 10 was -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 180 -- or 200, actually. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: If it's going to be in excess 13 of 15, but less than 16, maybe we want to put in 16 instead 14 of 15 so that we won't have a question about whether we can 15 spend it all. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think we need 17 to put that number in, and I'll get the exact number if you 18 like, Judge. $6,600, whatever that is, that came from FEMA 19 for that footbridge, and we need to decide if we're going to 20 augment that and replace that footbridge or not. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are there -- with the 22 FEMA $6,600, it's just a check. Can you do what you want 23 with it, or do you have to use it for that purpose? 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: No -- excuse me. As I 25 understood, it was an adjustment. It was 75 percent of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 96 1 what -- that was existing type of construction. No, you 2 don't have to use it for that, but that's what it -- you 3 know, they reimburse you. I had some prices done on 4 replacing, and I knew I couldn't afford it. Because, see, 5 at that time, it was built by Road and Bridge. Road and 6 Bridge put two pipes in there and put a light slab on there, 7 but no contractor would try to duplicate that -- private 8 contractors. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Speaking of those 10 pipes, don't we need to get those out of the river? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know that we know 12 how. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's beside 14 the -- probably beside the point. But -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's that? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The pipes that we put 17 out in the middle of the Guadalupe River. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a big one out 19 there. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Seems like the -- we 21 need to get those things out of there, so there goes your 22 $6,000 right there. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: $15,075.84. This 24 appears to be the remaining balance. The last expenditure 25 was October of '02 for $4,000. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 97 1 JUDGE TINLEY: $15,075.84? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 15,1. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: $15,075 will do it. 5 Keep the 84 cents change. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Are we going to do anything 7 with the 66 in relation to Flat Rock, or are we just -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think that from 9 a -- to me, it would make sense to earmark it back for that 10 park. That's where the damage occurred. Clearly, we can't 11 replace the structure for that amount of money, or a better 12 structure that would work better. So, I would think that 13 you would put that -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: 21,7 total? 15 MR. HOLEKAMP: What's going to happen to the 16 flat car at Hermann Sons when the bridge is built there? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not sure. That may 18 be an option. 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: That'd be a very viable 20 option. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And Leonard and I have 22 talked about that. We've actually -- and Commissioner 23 Williams and Leonard and I met out there at one point and 24 looked at the -- at where you could put it, what would have 25 to be done to -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 98 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: All right. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- use that. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got 21,675. Is 4 that right? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: 21,7. I just rounded up the 6 15 to 15,1; the 66 to 21,7. Anything else on Parks, 7 gentlemen? Let's move on to City/County. That's going to 8 be on Page 59. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 59? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Five-nine. Those are not the 11 same figures that we saw at the City/County budget workshop. 12 The request figures are the same figures that we saw. The 13 reduced figure on the Airport Operations is the County's 14 one-half of the grant, the $16,667, plus the -- the other 15 permanent improvement type. Excluded from that is any part 16 of the Airport Manager's salary. My rationale behind doing 17 that was based upon a discussion that we had with a 18 representative of the City on that. The consensus was 19 reached that operational expenses for that airport should be 20 taken out of the revenues from operation, and I think the 21 Airport Manager's salary is clearly an operational expense, 22 so I excluded that. They've got those funds in-hand. I 23 don't know why they don't want to spend them. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: "Those funds" -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That's my rationale. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 99 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: "Those funds" meaning 2 which funds, Judge? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, apparently they have the 4 funds that have been generated from operations out there 5 that have been accumulating in the past. I -- based upon 6 what they've indicated they're, quote, funding the 7 operations out there -- well, but they're also getting these 8 funds. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's true. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: And at the last meeting that 11 we had on -- on what the expenses were, the operational 12 expenses, what the revenues from operation were that were 13 being generated, it was pretty close to a wash, as I recall. 14 The numbers I recall were about 116, 117 revenues; 122, 123 15 expenses. And, included in that, if the numbers they 16 furnished to us were correct, were the expenses and -- and 17 the related benefits for the Airport Manager, the salary and 18 benefits. So, I think they'll take it out of there. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the 35 -- is that 20 what it is? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would be for what? 23 Our piece of grant money? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. Seems like there was 25 a -- there was a 25 -- there was $25,000 on a water line 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 100 1 that they were extending. There was another grant that we 2 were going to have to match with a 10 percent that was 3 another $16,667. You'll recall my question to Mr. Pearce 4 about which that was. No, that was this year. This other 5 one includes this other year. And there was one other item 6 that was a -- a permanent improvement-type item or 7 grant-type item, but it has nothing to do with the actual 8 operational expense. But I left those and excluded out the 9 Airport Manager's salary and benefits, and took our portion 10 of it. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Dave, were you at the 12 Airport Board meeting Wednesday night? 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No, I had to go to a 14 KARFA meeting. I was going to ask you the same thing. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I was en route 16 to Austin. I had a fill-in from Dave Pearce about that. I 17 don't think that there's anything that came out of that 18 meeting that would have any effect on that. I think the 19 Judge recalls correctly. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with the Judge. 21 I mean, the airport -- the intent is to make it break even, 22 or hopefully have it break even, at least on an operations 23 standpoint. I think the Airport Manager's salary is an 24 operations item, and I think the City and the County -- or 25 certainly the County should either support the -- you know, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 101 1 the grant. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with that. 3 The goal is to make it self-sufficient, and ultimately the 4 goal is not only self-sufficiency, but to provide enough 5 money for grants as well. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But we're not quite 8 there yet. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. One step at a 10 time. On the recycling facility, I recall there's two 11 items. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One was an over -- I 14 guess an improvement to the actual building, and then -- the 15 area over the shed roof or, you know, covering area. And 16 the other was a -- an additional -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Portable building. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- portable building. 19 What did -- do you recall the cost of each of those? 20 (Discussion off the record.) 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Half of that 22 requested, wasn't it? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: What they requested was -- it 24 says here contribution offset expenses incurred at Community 25 Recycling Center. That's not a correct statement. Both of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 102 1 those were capital-type improvements. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And, in fact, there was 4 mention about a $4,500 expenditure for this current budget 5 year, that they intended to ask for it also as a capital 6 improvement that they had not yet asked for. We have an 7 existing lease contract on that property. We own the 8 property; the City leases it. And the lease clearly 9 provides that any improvements or additions and maintenance 10 be borne by the lessee of that property, which is the City. 11 My recollection when -- when I raised that question was, 12 well, maybe we -- we need to rewrite the contract. I don't 13 think we need to rewrite the contract. I like it like it 14 is. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sounds like a good 16 contract to me. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have any problem 18 with, I mean, leaving it the way it is. If we need to 19 rewrite the contract, rewrite the contract. But I think 20 that there's a lot of benefit to the environment by having 21 that facility there, and they are expanding and taking more 22 things that are hazardous, that can damage surface and 23 groundwater. And there is clearly, in my mind, a -- a 24 shortage of ways to dispose of things. And I can say that 25 because of my familiarity with Kerrville Little League and 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 103 1 the dumpsters over there. I'd say 80 percent of the things 2 put in there -- and frequently they're hazardous items -- 3 have nothing to do with Little League. People -- you know, 4 they see a gate open, they run in there and dump things off. 5 I think that the -- the batteries, some of the things 6 they've added, the paint, the battery, the chemical things 7 that they're allowed to take off, I think that is a very 8 good program and want to continue it. And, you know, I 9 don't have a problem with leaving it out right now, but I 10 think that is a facility that we -- I certainly support, you 11 know, making some expenditures on to enhance it. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What happened to our 13 request to extend services to east and west of the county? 14 Did they ever responded to that? And, if so, is there a 15 cost attached to that? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I've not heard any response. 17 I have no question -- no quarrel with Commissioner Letz' 18 statement that it's a good service. And when they expanded 19 that service, the contract was amended to give them some 20 additional consideration for doing that. This is strictly a 21 matter that's controlled by the lease agreement, and it's 22 very, very clear. And, very frankly, I would -- I would 23 have some -- some concern about signing -- approving any 24 grant of moneys to them for those purposes for which they're 25 requesting them with the existing lease agreement, as well 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 104 1 as not we're even authorized by law to do that under the 2 circumstances without amending that contract. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I just said that. 4 I said I'm in favor of doing nothing at this point, but -- 5 and also in favor of redoing the lease agreement, which 6 would obligate us to make some expenditures on improvements. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the only -- my 8 only problem -- and I agree with everything that y'all have 9 said. My only problem with it is, doing these things like 10 this, is that the City is going to come along and not like 11 what we're saying, this and the fire contract and all these 12 kinds of things. And now we're -- now we're into a time 13 frame thing of getting our budget done. You know, how much 14 negotiating are we willing to do? How much meet in the 15 middle are we willing to do? Are we going to be -- is this 16 absolutely firm that we're going to stand under that 17 contract and we're not willing to change the contract? And 18 that -- I'm concerned about us having -- having our budget 19 out in time, and still maintain a relationship with the City 20 of Kerrville. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. That's why I 22 said, you know, I'm in favor of redoing the lease agreement, 23 getting that out on the table, 'cause the City is -- I agree 24 with the Judge; we can't do it until the lease gets redone, 25 or we shouldn't do it until the lease gets redone. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 105 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The thing is, the 2 things that they're asking for, this new thing -- this cover 3 and outbuilding, I don't know -- I mean, I can't see, in my 4 mind, that that enhances the program in any way. I don't 5 see that they're going to be able to take in more product 6 per day and those kind of things. It doesn't have anything 7 to do with it. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think if -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's more comfort for 10 the people, is all that is. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was under the 12 impression that the outbuilding was for computers, to store 13 computers in. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what it was? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe that's correct. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And they currently don't 17 have the facility to take in more -- more old, used 18 computers, so they end up getting tossed in the shed area. 19 I think you're partly right; it's comfort. I think as a 20 result, they're looking at redrawing the map as far as 21 getting two loops coming in, so you can get more people 22 through it in a certain amount of time, which is more an 23 efficiency issue, to me. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we were -- if you 25 were of a mind to put some level of funding in here, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 106 1 participation, what would that be? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd probably fund one or 3 the other of those items. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I thought maybe this 5 number represented half of it. I don't know. Half the -- 6 what they were asking. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Commissioner 8 Baldwin's point is well-taken, that -- I mean, we are 9 clearly making some changes to what the City has requested, 10 what they presented, and I think we need to set up a forum 11 to get that information back to the City; either ask -- ask 12 the County Judge to go to the mayor, or one of the 13 Commissioners meet with some of the Councilmen or something. 14 Because, I mean, I -- you know, the intent is -- from my 15 standpoint, anyway, is that I'm not trying to, you know, 16 antagonize the City. I -- just like on the fire contract, I 17 don't think they gave any justification to do it. The 18 airport, I think we're doing what the intent is. And on 19 this one, the contract doesn't allow us to do what they're 20 asking. It's not that we're, in my mind, saying no to 21 everything. We're saying that some things need to be done, 22 or they need to -- you know, this item, they need to put 23 together a new contract. If they want to draft a new 24 contract, we'll look at the new contract. And the -- the 25 fire department, we just agree to disagree. They can try to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 107 1 explain or give us more documentation than what they have 2 provided so far, because it doesn't warrant the increase 3 they asked for. So, I appoint the Judge. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it -- you guys may not 6 want me on this deal. As a lawyer, I find it repugnant to 7 make an arm's-length deal with a party, and then later on 8 down the line -- in a five-year deal, three years down the 9 line, the other side decides that they want to try and make 10 a better deal or should have made a better deal or want to 11 make a better deal, and so we just start over. You talk 12 about we're not giving them what they request. We've got 13 some elected officials out here that have made budget 14 requests of this Court, and we're not going to give them 15 what they're asking for either, and I think that's our first 16 priority, gentlemen. You may not want me to go talking to 17 those people. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know how to 19 do this, but at least three of you have got quite a bit of 20 experience dealing with the City. A couple -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Obviously, I don't have 22 enough. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, I don't like 24 this to run over us. The way you've explained the contract 25 sounds a lot like that. On the other hand, I want to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 108 1 negotiate in good faith, and I don't want to have a breach 2 in our relationship with them, because it's good for both 3 sides to participate in these kinds of things. Then there's 4 one other thing that I'll say about this, is we don't have 5 time to pursue this much further, either. This is an 6 example for me of the kind of things that ought to be 7 user-pay. I don't know -- I don't know if we're charging, 8 or how much we're charging. Long-term, it ought to be a 9 user-pay kind of thing. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where does that leave 11 us? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it leaves us as 13 we're under a contract that says that the City pays for 14 everything. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's good enough. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can't do anything, 17 so I think we ought to move on to the next item. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's not being 19 antagonistic, in my view. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't answer the 22 question of, are we going to just -- are we going to send a 23 letter to the City and say we're not going to approve the -- 24 what are -- I mean, somehow we need to communicate the 25 changes we're making after our meeting of the -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 109 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think that needs to 3 be done. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I agree with 5 that. I do. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all I'm saying. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let Thea handle it. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, you and the 9 mayor makes sense to me. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, you know, I 11 just -- I think the -- the reasons are very clear. There 12 wasn't documentation on the fire department. We're under a 13 contract here at this time. And the airport, we're doing 14 what the plan for the airport is. Let operations pay for 15 that side of it. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: You may want to draft that 17 letter for me, Jonathan. Sounds like you have the kinder 18 and gentler approach. Anything more on this one, gentlemen? 19 County-sponsored. Looks like 64. We had a small piece of 20 that one with Economic Development. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Question for my 22 edification. What's water development? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Water development is 24 under the Regional Water Plan, the way different regions 25 fund that different ways. Region J chose to not be reliant 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 110 1 on one entity, such as the U.G.R.A. or something like that, 2 and we went to all of the, basically, counties and asked for 3 the -- and also the cities and asked for a contribution. We 4 haven't asked for a contribution, I think, in three or four 5 years, and to cover administrative costs. And the City of 6 Kerrville does the same amount, City of Del Rio, Val Verde 7 County. Those are the primary. The others contribute some, 8 but that's the -- each of those four give $5,000, or have in 9 the past. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions about these 11 items? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Would you 13 explain the Dietert Claim and public transportation issue, 14 please? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. You can obviously see 16 what they were in the previous year. The Dietert Claim was 17 providing or participating in the transportation services. 18 When they went out of the transportation business, AACOG 19 then, as I'm sure you'll recall -- I seem to remember you 20 had some concerns about paying for the same thing twice. 21 You send the money to Washington, it comes back, then they 22 want you to pay it again. But what I did was -- is, out of 23 the Dietert Claim moneys, I took the portion of, quote, our 24 assessment, unquote, allocated that to transportation, and 25 left the balance of it there for Dietert Claim. Net effect 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 111 1 is, we save $5,000. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Then the $7,100 3 that we're going to continue sending to Dietert Claim, 4 what -- what is that for? Just for their normal, everyday 5 services? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Assistance to seniors in Kerr 7 County area. We have an item of $15,000 in years past. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What are y'all smoking 9 back there? 10 MS. NEMEC: It wasn't anything you said. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It was the word 12 "seniors" that got her. Let me shed a little light on the 13 question you raised, Commissioner. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 'Cause I asked 16 Mr. Danos, Mr. Notzon's assistant, who handles 17 transportation issues for Mr. Notzon, regarding the base 18 $3,000 fee that you mentioned. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And his response to 21 me was, it was not a duplication of -- of funds for 22 administration, but in fact it was funds necessary to get 23 from all the counties to -- to meet the required match 24 needed to draw down operational funds from federal and state 25 funding agencies. That's the response he gave me. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 112 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Grant match? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Grant match. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. Five line 6 items here that I -- 7 MS. SOVIL: Judge? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: I have a question about the 9 Appraisal District contract. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Appraisal District contract 12 line item. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we'll get to you in just 14 a minute, Tommy. 15 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I think Commissioner Nicholson 17 had a -- 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Five items on here 19 that total $20,500 that I'm going to refer to as social 20 services kinds of things. Big Brother/Big Sister, K'Star, 21 Crisis Council, CASA, and Historical Commission. I know 22 you -- this Court's had these discussions in the past. My 23 question is, is it proper -- proper function of the 24 government to underwrite the costs of those kinds of things, 25 and if so, how did you decide that these are the five that 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 113 1 we want to fund from the array of other opportunities that 2 we have? Jonathan? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Immediately backed up, didn't 4 he? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll give you a -- the 6 limited historical perspective I have. It was -- those were 7 programs that basically the -- other than Historical 8 Commission, that the County Judge has used in his position 9 as County Judge with juveniles. That's -- that was the 10 rationale. If they were used in that capacity, they were 11 eligible for funding. And I -- I just kind of went along 12 with it. I had the same question, though, many times. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: If I'm not mistaken, there was 14 an issue raised about this several years ago, as to the 15 legality of it, and I believe the County Attorney obtained 16 an opinion, and the opinion -- I don't have it in front of 17 me. I have seen it at one time, or at least a summary of 18 it, and my understanding of it was, if there's a contract 19 involved and if it performs a service for the public good, 20 something generally along those lines, that you can do it. 21 Now, as to why these were selected, they were selected 22 because they were the ones that have been there. I don't 23 know anything about the utilization in connection with 24 juveniles, even though I -- there are some of them I 25 recognize as being -- being involved in some of the juvenile 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 114 1 cases that I do handle. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That doesn't quite 3 rise to my view of what -- what county government ought to 4 be paying for. I'm sure they do good work, and there's lots 5 of agencies that do good work. If it were left up to me, 6 I'd probably defund them. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've always had the 8 same question, but I don't want to use the word "require," 9 but it's in -- it's a cousin to require. We're required to 10 do some things for the Historical Commission. I'm not sure 11 what all that is. I know we provide an office for them in 12 this courthouse downstairs, and I think most courthouses do. 13 And -- but I don't know about the word "require" there, but 14 it's kin to that. My thoughts have been, for a number of 15 years, is that we've -- we have -- we also pay for a 16 membership -- help me a little bit, Bill; it's your 17 program -- in this grant-writing program, but I think -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: R.C.& D. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: R.C.& D. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's just a hundred 21 bucks. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That doesn't matter; 23 that's not the point. We pay a membership into a 24 grant-writing program that the County and all its agencies 25 have access to, and my point has always been, these agencies 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 115 1 that you're talking about here need to go to that R.C.& D. 2 and do some grants and get off -- get out of this. I've 3 always felt that way. So, we're sitting here funding these 4 people, and we fund R.C.& D.; whether it's $100 a year or $1 5 a year doesn't matter, and just keep spending money. We 6 don't get anywhere on people getting off the government -- 7 can't say that word. But -- 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's a very 9 helpful explanation. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I tend to -- 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I agree with you. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's -- I mean, 13 it's always been a question of mine. And I think what we 14 could do -- and if the Court's inclined, we could reduce 15 funding for all of them, with the plan of going to zero over 16 two, three years. 17 MS. SOVIL: May I -- may I say something? 18 Part of -- part of their requirement when they apply for 19 grants is to show county support, and that money was part of 20 that -- I mean, you know, they need some -- something to 21 show that they are supported by the County. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's a good 23 point. That's a good point. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's got to be an 25 illegal point, though. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 116 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But I also think the 2 case for the historical value might not be a bad idea before 3 we whack them out, to let them appear and justify the type 4 of services that they provide, particularly for our young 5 people. The Judge knows better than I or all of us how some 6 of those services benefit people -- young people that appear 7 before him, or should or could benefit. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there's no 9 question that they're all of benefit. The question goes 10 back as to, why these? There are an equal number or far 11 greater number that provide just as good of a service that 12 we don't fund. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can't argue that. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And just because someone 15 got on the list in the beginning, why should we continue to 16 support them? That's kind of what has evolved over time. 17 They all do a great job with what they do, but there's lots 18 of other organizations that do the same. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to suggest 20 we cut them all back to $1,000 a year and ask to serve 21 notice that we want them to find other sources of revenue. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: The Historical Commission, I 23 think, is a feature of state statute. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: So we've got some official tie 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 117 1 to that. Beyond that, the others, to my understanding, are 2 nonprofit social service agencies, and I don't -- you know, 3 I'm not plugged into any of them. Judge? 4 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Excuse me, Judge. There's 5 issues like Hill Country Crisis Council, for example; 6 probably given about $5,000. Well, they're used by our 7 court system all the time. The District Courts, County 8 Court at Law, the County Attorney's office for emergency 9 protective orders. There's a lot of services that they get, 10 probably more so than $5,000, because they don't charge the 11 County back for the services because of this grant of 12 $5,000. So, there's an example of an agency that gives a 13 lot of service, and it -- if $5,000 was not funded, they 14 could actually charge the County for the services and would 15 end up with more money. As an example -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a good point. 17 That's a good point. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Any others like that? 19 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Not that I'm -- I'm just 20 familiar with that aspect of the court system. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Kid's Advocacy. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kid's Advocacy? 23 MS. SOVIL: That's statutory. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Kid's Advocacy is statutory? 25 (Ms. Sovil nodded.) 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 118 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Creature of state statute. 2 MS. SOVIL: It's set up by statute. 3 (Discussion off the record.) 4 MS. SOVIL: And we have a contract with them 5 that -- according to statute. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Vance, your reference 7 was Crisis Council? 8 JUDGE ELLIOTT: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner, they're 10 going back in very fast. Jump up on the table. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: CASA, everybody knows 12 what CASA is all about. 13 MS. NEMEC: CASA is also one of those. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 15 MS. NEMEC: They have a zero budget. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Tommy, you had something about 18 the KCAD contract? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. I'm recalling when I -- 20 from the contract -- their budget -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: -- that the $91,094 is for 23 just the Kerr County tax -- tax, and does not include the 24 lateral road or any road districts. So I think -- I 25 remember adding all those up, and it came to $97,648. We've 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 119 1 fallen into that -- we've had that problem before. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: You have it again, apparently. 3 I fell into the trap again. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: And we -- at the end of the 5 year, we didn't have any money, so we just -- you know, just 6 overlook those road districts. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That needs to be 97 what? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: $97,648. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: 648. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's the requested 12 number. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Jonathan, what was 14 the water development? What did you say that was? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On Region J, to cover 16 administration costs, proportion or a part of the total 17 amount. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on 19 County-Sponsored Activity? I don't know that we've got a 20 resolution on County-sponsored activities, and, obviously, 21 we can't make a firm resolution at this point, but I'm not 22 sure we've got a -- a direction or consensus that we've 23 reached. 24 MS. PIEPER: Judge, if my memory serves me 25 correct, when they came in and presented their budget, they 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 120 1 kind of added an increase in salaries, and I think at that 2 point, y'all had turned it down. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's on KCAD? 4 MS. PIEPER: So this -- if that is the 5 requested amount, that's -- then that's in there. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: You talking about KCAD? 7 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, no. Actually, if -- 9 apparently, I was only looking at the County portion. And I 10 know we turned down their budget because of some things, 11 which was a hollow -- hollow thing that we did. But 12 apparently there's some others that we've got to pick up the 13 tab for that were not included in the figure that I used. 14 MS. PIEPER: Oh. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think you're 16 right, we turned it down, but they passed it anyway. 17 MS. PIEPER: Okay. Just wanted to keep you 18 straight. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Sheriff? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Real quick, you had -- I 21 believe y'all received a letter from Triad. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Requesting $500. And 24 the reason behind that is, they admit over years past, the 25 entire $500 Crime Prevention line item that was given to the 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 121 1 Sheriff's Office, the Sheriff's Office at that time turned 2 that over to Triad and gave it to them. And I have told 3 Triad, I don't feel that I can legally give them money out 4 of my budget for their services. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I think you're right. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why you've got 7 the letter from them. And I just know they're going to 8 bring that up at some point. They're -- 'cause I get bugged 9 about it, and they're wondering why we won't give it to 10 them. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I fess up, I got it. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it didn't appear 14 in here. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Nope, sure didn't. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think on the 17 County-sponsored, if they're statutory, clearly, we need to 18 have them there. And if it's a -- you know, I guess 19 something that we -- the County uses the services a great 20 deal, there's a reason for this. Some of them are clearly 21 good organizations, like Big Brother/Big Sister. That's 22 fairly new. As I recall, Commissioner, that came out about 23 three years ago, four years ago, something like that, and 24 they're just getting started. And I don't -- you know. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask this 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 122 1 question, Judge. Do you ever send any juveniles to Big 2 Brothers and Big Sisters for any kind of services? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: No, they don't participate 4 directly into the -- in the juvenile justice system. I 5 don't think that's -- I don't think they -- they feed into 6 the -- the problems at that point in time. The ones that -- 7 that I would normally utilize are -- are CASA, insofar as 8 making investigations; K'Star provides temporary residency 9 for some of our people involved in -- some of our children 10 involved in the system. Those -- these are the -- those are 11 the two that I primarily have involvement with. The Crisis 12 Council that Judge Elliott was talking about has more to do 13 with the family violence-type situations. In those cases, 14 those cases are in the County Court at Law and the District 15 Courts, and also I'm sure Justice of the Peace get involved 16 in those cases, because they very often are the initial 17 contact when those kind of problems arise, and I'm sure a 18 lot of them get sent over there. But there's no question 19 that the Crisis Council has a lot of interplay with our 20 overall court system. I don't think there's any question 21 about that. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with both of 23 you. It's a big-time -- big-time organization that 24 basically operates off of donations. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the only one that 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 123 1 doesn't really have, I mean, ties to county government is 2 Big Brothers/Big Sisters. All the rest of them are -- 3 they're -- there's dotted line county government on them. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about Family and 5 Literacy? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: There's nothing allocated to 7 that one this year; they're out of the equation. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, it's zeroed. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Child Advocacy is 10 another one. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That's statutorily-based; I 12 was not aware of that. I appreciate Ms. Sovil's pointing 13 that out. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So you're going with 15 the 407, or not? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. That would be 20 Sheriff Hierholzer's salary? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Anything else on any of 22 these, gentlemen? Okay. Let's move on to -- we're only 23 running an hour behind. That's not too bad. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not bad. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Maintenance. Which one do you 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 124 1 want to do? 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: Whichever one -- 510, 3 probably. Page-wise, Page 40. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: Do you want to do it first? 6 We'll do them in order. Questions? Do y'all have any 7 questions? I'm okay with it. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under Major Repairs. 9 MR. HOLEKAMP: Mm-hmm? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you have any idea what 11 might break? I mean, you know, just because we always keep 12 something in major repairs? 13 MR. HOLEKAMP: No. Specifically, on major 14 repairs, I have two of the larger units on the old penthouse 15 that were not changed back in 2000. Trying to remember that 16 far back. It's obvious that we're going to probably have to 17 do something; we've got some issues with them. And I had 18 put some money in for them, and that's going to account for 19 about $7,500 of it. The other is not earmarked at this 20 time. If y'all choose to take it out, that's fine. I like 21 to keep some in there in case something catastrophic might 22 happen. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- you know, I 24 have no problem with leaving it in there, and I think that, 25 you know, at this time next year, or maybe June next year, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 125 1 if we haven't spent it, I think it would probably be a good 2 time to start replacing the windows one by one wherever we 3 can, basically in our offices. We're the ones -- I think we 4 cut ourselves out during that original redo, and I know one 5 of them in my office is about to fall in, and just glass on 6 the floor every morning. There's a hole, but I didn't -- 7 don't worry about it. But, you know, all the windows at 8 this end of the -- you know, the Commissioners. Are those 9 the only ones, Tommy? Did we do the ones -- we did that 10 renovation in your office. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, ours are done. 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: Just -- it's these here, this 13 floor. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We've got some right over 15 here, too. 16 MR. HOLEKAMP: That is correct. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think late in the 18 year each year, we ought to try to knock out one or two of 19 those if we can. 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: I would love to. I'd love to. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How about the back 22 door? 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: Replacement? That's scheduled 24 in this year's budget. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions on the -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 126 1 on the 510 worksheet? Okay. Let's move to 511, is it? 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir, Jail Maintenance. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Right, Mm-hmm. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Page? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: 41. 41, I'm sorry. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: The increase in this one here 7 was strictly part -- the part-time money. I -- we've been 8 using part-time over there, but it has been taken out of 9 another budget. I just reallocated to where it really 10 belongs. And that's to avoid overtime. Overtime, calling 11 out people in the middle of the night and stuff, gets very 12 expensive, so I -- I've chosen to use part-time people, 13 because that's straight time. That's the reason for the 14 increase. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions for 16 Mr. Holekamp on this one? 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: You'll notice that my total 18 salary thing did not change, because I just reproportioned 19 it from other areas, part-time in my other budgets. So, 20 it's not really an increase. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Jail repairs? 22 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir? That's pretty much 23 a constant, where we have been for the last few years, and 24 I'm hoping we can hold that line. With the jail getting 25 older, it gets more difficult each year, but I -- there 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 127 1 again, we're doing more and more repairs ourselves instead 2 of having to job out, other than air-conditioning work and 3 that sort of thing. But we've been able to hold the line 4 pretty well on that. Hopefully we can maintain it. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on that one? 7 Move to Page 44, Parks Maintenance. 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: The reason this one is 9 additional money this time was this -- I changed one 10 employee that was a little higher salary person to that 11 department, and moved him -- it's just a shuffle of people. 12 That was the reason. And then -- well, of course, 13 insurance. But there's no other increases in that budget. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: There's one other change that 15 y'all need to make on 569. There was a misprint there. On 16 the $2,000 recommended, it's $1,200. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Glenn, where'd 18 you move this other person from? 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: They went from Jail 20 Maintenance to Parks, and the parks guy went to the Ag Barn. 21 The Ag Barn guy went to jail. He's not in jail; I mean, 22 he's a maintenance guy. (Laughter.) 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Between those three 24 moves, the bottom line of that salary changed? 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: No. The three budgets just -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 128 1 it just changed a little bit, but it did not change the 2 total amount of all the budgets. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: I'm sorry. It's hard to 5 explain it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Except for -- except for the 7 longevity and the -- 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: That is correct, and 9 longevity. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: -- merit, other increases? 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir, that is correct. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on 513? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tell me again what 14 you did on 569. Did it go to $2,000, or is it $1,200? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: It's $1,200. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: Then the next one is 61, 18 Environmental Health. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Right, Page 61. That takes 20 care of environmental health for you, Jonathan. All the 21 blanks are zero. 22 MR. HOLEKAMP: There was one moved over. Did 23 you catch one on the uniform thing? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: The uniform one was an error. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 129 1 Remember, you caught it? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. Yes, 315 shows $800. 3 That should be down on Line 316. See in the far right 4 column? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: That just dropped it down. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: It's just in the wrong line 8 item. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, I'm curious. 10 Vehicle Insurance, how -- it's about $560. How did we get 11 it to $250? 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: I believe because what they 13 did is, this last time, they only deducted $210 for his 14 insurance, so we're just reflecting what was deducted this 15 last year. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay, thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Inspector's salary's 18 going down by 50 percent. Is that going to reduce his time? 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: No, sir. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: No? 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: No, sir. He is a fixed, 22 part-time employee. He can make "X" number of dollars a 23 month, period, and this is exactly that amount -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: -- that he can make. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 130 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: I wanted it to reflect that 3 instead of having the -- the other salary in there. Now, I 4 may be in a problem with at some point he leaves here and 5 then we have to replace him with a part-time. Then we would 6 have to address that particular one, but not at this time. 7 I wanted to try to give y'all a budget that pretty much 8 reflects exactly what's we're doing. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further on 640? Can 10 we go to 666? 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: Page 67. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Right, mm-hmm. 13 MR. HOLEKAMP: And as you go down on this one 14 here, I will make a comment. On Major Repairs, I zeroed it, 15 and the reason I did is it's going to take a substantial 16 amount of money to -- to do some permanent improvements. 17 The upgrades on the electrical in the indoor arena, we're 18 bidding that as we speak. It will be done in this year's 19 budget, so the electrical part of that is going to be 20 addressed; that's going to be out of the way. The indoor 21 arena, the indoor exhibit center, it would be very difficult 22 at this point to -- with my budget, to address the major 23 repairs that are going to be required to seal up a building. 24 And I'm talking about roof; the roof thing is a big-ticket 25 item. Big. And my budget, I -- I really -- I was kind of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 131 1 given some direction by the Court to -- they really didn't 2 want to -- you know, big budgets. They wanted us to try to 3 hold the line, so I chose not to put the new roof in that -- 4 in that particular line as a major repair. I think it needs 5 to be permanent improvement or something of that nature. I 6 think it's more than a repair. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's "big"? 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: $100,000. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: See? 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: And then air-conditioner units 11 going right along with it, and that's big. So -- but I 12 think that has to be in a package. I don't think it's a 13 major repair, and that's what I'm reflecting here. I think 14 it needs to be something else besides major repair, so 15 that's why it's not in here. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any questions for Mr. Holekamp 17 on the Exhibition Center? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Security guard, 19 50 percent of what it is? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes. What that -- what that's 21 reflecting is I took that part-time money that went over to 22 the -- to the jail. That was half of it. We shuffle people 23 around, Commissioner, and what happens is that some of the 24 same employees that -- security guard salaries is 108; 25 that's the same people. Is that correct? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 132 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Same as? 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: What's the part-time number? 3 MS. NEMEC: 108. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: Because back in the old days, 5 they had security guard. It's really part-time. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That should be changed to 7 part-time? 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, yeah. It's just been 9 written that way, but the same people are used at different 10 places, so we put salaries as to what I think the amount to 11 be used at that particular facility. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Glenn, what about your 13 security fence ideas? 14 MR. HOLEKAMP: The railing thing that we 15 discussed? We're getting bids, and -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is it in here, though? 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: No, no, no. No, that will be 18 in this year's budget. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Present? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: That is not in here, no, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: While I'm thinking 23 about it, would you have somebody check the lights on the 24 flagpole? I don't think the flags are lighted at night. 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: We're having some breaker 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 133 1 problems with that particular one, and I think there's water 2 getting into the electric eye. And, yes, sir, I will. We 3 do have to address that. Someone else brought that to our 4 attention. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It appears to me that 8 Mr. Holekamp's functions has been reduced $60,000, $70,000. 9 I didn't make a running number, but it's -- 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: $48,619. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All of them? 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 48? Is that the best 14 you could do, Glenn? 15 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. I -- mm-hmm. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: I will -- if I can have a 18 closing comment, Commissioner Nicholson this morning hit on 19 a very -- very good note about this salary thing on the 20 lower-end people. I would like to see this Court, if they 21 see fit, at the end of this budget process, to be able to 22 help some of these people that are on the bottom end of this 23 ladder. They need it, and I would -- I would really like 24 for y'all to keep it in mind. As far as I'm concerned, I'm 25 not standing up here banging a drum for myself, but we have 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 134 1 some people in here that have two or three kids at home, and 2 I imagine they could be on programs if they wished to be. I 3 don't -- I'm not sure they are, primarily because of pride. 4 But, you know, pride doesn't put beans on the table. So, I 5 would appreciate any help that y'all are able to give. And 6 I -- I tried to do it within my budget, to -- to maybe 7 lighten up a little bit so that maybe y'all are able to do 8 something. It'd be appreciated. Thank y'all. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you, Glenn. 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: Mm-hmm. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Would this be an appropriate 13 time for to us take a short break before we get tied back up 14 again, and give the court reporter a little break here? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Come back in about 16 noon tomorrow? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be one time we 18 could consider. Why don't we stand in recess for about 10 19 minutes? 20 (Recess taken from 2:47 p.m. to 3:02 p.m.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's call the meeting 23 back to order after the recess. It's approximately 3 p.m. 24 Commissioner Letz had a commitment because of some family 25 difficulties, I believe. I'm not sure whether it's his 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 135 1 family or his wife's family had a death, and he had some 2 commitments to attend to as a result of that, so he's -- 3 he's not with us. It was necessary that he leave. Next 4 item is -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's debatable whether 6 he was with us this morning. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the Sheriff's Department. 8 Looks like the first one is under the jail, I believe, 512. 9 Is that correct, Sheriff? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 512 is the Sheriff's 11 Office. 560 -- you're right, I'm sorry. 512 is the jail. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Page 42. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 42. It takes up 10 14 pages? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would like to -- on 16 this one, I'd like to start all the way down at what you 17 have as Line Item 220 on there, Judge, Employee Medical 18 Exams. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You didn't change this 21 from what I had requested, and I had requested $4,000, which 22 we both stayed about the same, that I see. I'm a little bit 23 concerned right now whether or not that's going to be 24 sufficient. We have had a larger turnover right in the jail 25 than what I like to have, and every time we hire somebody, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 136 1 we have to pay for the psychological, physical, drug screen, 2 even an entrance exam that we now give, and it goes into 3 that. And it averages out to -- let's see, 220 -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That changeover is not 5 100 percent because we don't pay enough money. I mean, 6 isn't there some of those guys that like to live in Arizona 7 as opposed to here or something? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, later in the 9 budget -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Give us a fair shake 11 here, Rusty. Come on. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: About 80 percent of it's 13 due to money, at least. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 80 percent due to 15 money? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: At least 80 percent. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is going to be a 18 downhill visit here, I can see. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's good -- good 20 news, Commissioner. It's only money. The other problems 21 are more difficult to -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And the reason I'm 23 concerned and that, if you look at 731, year-to-date 24 expenses in there, we're already at $3,664 that we have 25 spent. And I just -- with the way things are going at this 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 137 1 time, I don't know that I can keep the turnover rate lower 2 this year than what it -- this coming year than what it was. 3 I would like to see at least another $500 added back into 4 there. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 45? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: $4,500. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rusty, pull that mic 8 a little closer, please. With all the noise here -- 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm sorry. Pulling that 10 up to at least about $4,500, instead of $4,000. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Are you making a 12 presentation, or are you open to questions? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whatever you want to do, 14 sir. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: On the jailers' 16 salaries, Judge, did you use the same formula here as you 17 did with other salaries? Longevity/educational increases 18 only? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, I did. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would like to, if I 21 may -- okay, the -- the presentation here, as you saw in the 22 cover sheet of my entire budget notebook everybody got, my 23 main concentration this entire budget year is going to be 24 employee salaries and dealing with our employees. So, if we 25 could intentionally skip down over that -- we went through 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 138 1 the medical exams, so I'd go through just operational; I 2 don't think we have that many differences in that, to where 3 at the end of this, I could do a presentation on the 4 employee salaries to leave with y'all at the conclusion. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You had a 6 significant increase in prisoner meals. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A significant decrease. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Decrease. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In prisoner meals. This 10 is going to be very close. In 2000, our -- our inmate meals 11 was $226,000 or $227,000. After '99/2000, we have reduced 12 it each year, because I think all of y'all know who my chief 13 cook is, and she does an excellent job back there. And 14 also, I started requiring that -- we had redone our menu. I 15 still wanted it dietitian-approved, but I wanted it redone 16 due to the fact I did not want to use heat-and-serve meals. 17 I wanted to just go back to cooking our own meals from 18 scratch, which we had been able to reduce our costs of those 19 meals drastically. Now, I asked for $210,000 -- or 20 $200,000; dropped it from 210 this last year to 200 this 21 year. But in the visit I had with the Judge, I did tell the 22 Judge that our average meal cost at this time, 'cause I just 23 had Ms. Krauss refigure it all, was 89 cents. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Compared to what last 25 year? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 139 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I didn't even go back 2 and compare. It's dropped. You know, the only thing is, 3 Judge, that I did go back after I got your proposed budget, 4 'cause it was going to cut that real close. I went back and 5 had Ms. Krauss figure in what is our miscellaneous items; 6 the utensils, the tinfoil, you know, aluminum foil, things 7 like that, costing, and then the employees' meals in there 8 that are the employees that are on duty and can't leave; 9 your jailers and your dispatchers. We do feed them out of 10 that, and it brings that cost up to 94 cents per meal. Now, 11 at 94 cents per meal, in 2 -- from October of 2001 to 12 October of 2002, we averaged 147 inmates. Then you figure 13 in about 18 officers' meals in that. What it comes out to 14 is $167,000 for meals. The Judge has programmed in 15 $170,000, which would cover that, but we're cutting ourself 16 very thin on -- is produce going to go up? Is our average 17 population going to stay at the 147 or 149? I just don't 18 know. I think $3,000 leeway is going to cut that awful 19 close. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: My recollection, Sheriff, was 21 that -- was that you'd indicated 83 cents a meal, and I 22 apologize if I misunderstood you, but that's the figure I 23 was working off of, was 83 cents a meal. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I may have -- I thought 25 I had said 89, but either way, we had to go back in and add 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 140 1 the utensils and that to cover it; that wasn't in that 2 figure at all, and neither were the jailers and the 3 dispatchers that have to eat there and can't leave. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I tried to make 5 allowance for some -- for some dispatchers, some other 6 people that I -- I was figuring about -- about what you did 7 here, about 165, I think, which is about what you did, 8 because I figured 150 and about 15, so that would be about 9 right, 165. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: $56,000. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That comes out to $149,960. 12 $150,000, what I calculate. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: At the 94? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: No, no. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. See, if you -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That was at the 83 that I 17 calculated, based upon 165 meals per day, three times a day, 18 365 days a year. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Your -- your 170 would 20 work; it's just cutting it very thin, and I'll let the Court 21 decide what they want to do. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I come up with a lot 23 less than that. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: You did? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I came up with 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 141 1 $56,000. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: He's feeding three a day. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Yep, 169. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Only thing I would ask 5 is, do we want to leave ourselves just the $3,000 leeway? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably not. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know what the 8 cost of produce and other supplies may go up to. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to see your 10 jail full. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you pretty sure 12 you can hold the prisoner meal to 94 cents during the course 13 of the next 12 months? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what I'm saying. 15 Depending on cost of produce and the cost of other things, 16 I -- I don't know. I mean, we have -- if you look at it 17 down to 170, even from what we were, we -- since 2000, we've 18 cut $56,000 off of our meal cost in that jail, which I think 19 the jail staff has done a remarkable job of doing that and 20 being able to do that. I think we're at the bottom line 21 now. I don't think that any jail in the state can pretty 22 well feed inmates at 94 cents a meal, counting your utensils 23 and counting your... If our population goes up, if Bandera 24 decides they're going to start housing more, or just, you 25 know, around here it starts going up, there is an average of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 142 1 147 inmates or 149. And, if you'll remember, we didn't do 2 it this year, but last year we hit 208 in there at a time. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I also annualized your costs 4 to-date with a -- with a half a month float in it using the 5 year-to-date, and I gave you that half a month in order to 6 allow for bills that hadn't come in, that didn't make it in 7 that month. Annualizing on year-to-date costs, I come up 8 with just under 152, which is pretty close to the Auditor's 9 157 estimated. So -- so all of these figures appear to be 10 operating about in the -- I had intended to give you some -- 11 some room to work, and that's the reason I went from 150 to 12 155 in that area, thinking that would be about what it ran 13 this year. That gave you a 10 percent -- 10 percent float 14 there. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And it may be my fault, 16 since I didn't give you the costs for the tinfoil and 17 utensils and just that type of stuff in with that. It gave 18 the per-meal a little bit shorter than what reality's going 19 to be. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I would agree with you, we're 21 -- we're knocking pretty close. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We're real close in that 23 170. I just don't know if that's enough either way, with 24 produce costs and things like that. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Doesn't leave you a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 143 1 lot of room for inflation. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Nope, it doesn't. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I sure would like to 4 see you fill the jail up. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: With out-of-county prisoners? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Any prisoners. We 7 need to get them off of our streets. Are -- Bandera's 8 housing part of theirs somewhere else? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not that I know of, 10 unless they got ones that I refused. They got a few that I 11 will not house, but there are some of those that I can still 12 pick and choose at a 192-bed facility, and being able to 13 appropriately classify inmates and separate them. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 170 -- 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We would really be full 16 at 153 inmates, okay? And when we're averaging, 2001/2002, 17 147 to 149, I think we're getting real close to that. So, 18 we're pretty close to full, Buster. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Aren't we going to 20 agree that a loaf of bread is going to increase in price, 21 milk's going to go up? I mean, isn't that going to happen? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean, you have to 24 count on that happening. You can't count on it maintaining 25 flat. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 144 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why, in the years 2 past, you know, we've cut it, but I've always given us a lot 3 larger leeway, because I just didn't know. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I've allowed for what I 5 calculated to be approximately 10 percent. That's the way I 6 calculated it, based on figures I understood from him, and 7 also the annualized cost of the year-to-date expenditures. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Just a guess at having a 9 figure, if our costs actually come in at about what we're 10 figuring right now, per that price, $167,000, I think we 11 ought to at least have 190 in there. I just don't know what 12 it's going to do. I don't know what jail population will do. 13 I don't know what produce costs are going to be. I don't 14 know what any of the other food costs are going to be. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you're down from 16 your 200 to 190,000 now, and he's still at 160. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 170. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Really? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll go along with 170. Well, 20 the Court's going to ultimately have to make that decision, 21 and -- but I'll -- I'll agree that the 170 is -- it's 22 keeping pretty tight right now. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's very tight, which I 24 don't have a problem. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I intended to do. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 145 1 Just as forthright as I know how to be. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't have a problem 3 with it, 'cause what I figure the -- if it stays the same, 4 our costs are going to be 167, so 170 will work if our costs 5 stay the same. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the population 7 stays reasonably the same. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mm-hmm, yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, these kind of 10 issues, it's -- I mean, I don't like this -- the theory of 11 padding a budget, but these kind of -- something like this, 12 if we counted on population staying the same and the cost of 13 a loaf of bread staying the same, and budgeted in that -- in 14 that theory, I think that's a mistake. I really and truly 15 do. 'Cause it's better -- it's better to pad the thing a 16 little bit than it is to come short. Why don't we go to 17 180? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like that number. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I like that number. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's -- I have no 22 problem. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that's your answer, 24 Sheriff. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Going back up just a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 146 1 little bit to 315, which is Jail Uniforms, there's the cost 2 of our jail uniforms. And what I have figured in that, 3 $8,000 was even cutting it very slim, because if we still 4 have that same turnover rate, you have to buy new uniforms 5 for those. Of course, we always try and reuse the ones we 6 collect back, but we can't hire people by the size that we 7 have in the closet. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why not? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It just doesn't work 10 that way very well. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: You don't have a physical 12 fitness program out there? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We're trying to do that 14 too, but I don't have the funds in the budget to get it 15 going. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But thank you, Judge; 18 you walked into that one. $8,000 was cutting it very, very 19 slim. Actually, if you figure the cost and with the number 20 of turnover we had this year in the jail, it would be 21 $9,000, and so I would -- I would request we at least leave 22 that at the $8,000 mark and not go down to six. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I think I gave you eight. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mine says eight. 25 Yeah, it's -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 147 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Eight. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, I gave you eight. 3 You're looking at -- 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm sorry, I looked at 5 the wrong one. $9,000-something is what we come up with if 6 we have the same turnover rate. You cut it from my 10 to 8, 7 Judge. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. I annualized your 9 cost, and it leaves $1,600 for your physical fitness program 10 at eight. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I am short eight jail 12 staff at this time, and have been for several months. And 13 if you add eight new employees at three shirts, three pants 14 and that with them, the -- it's not going to work. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What are you looking 16 for, nine? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. I looked at the 18 wrong line. I was looking at our office supplies that he 19 cut from eight to six. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Sounds to me like we're 21 playing poker. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Pretty close. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Did we do all these figures 24 just to negotiate from, or did we each try and hit the 25 numbers that we thought -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 148 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm trying to -- no, I'm 2 trying to work with this Court and see if we can. I -- the 3 one thing the Court hates to see is exactly what's happening 4 at this time of year right now, which is budget amendments 5 coming in, and if I -- if I don't get what I've asked for, 6 Judge, I'm afraid we're going to have budget amendments. 7 But understanding the economy and what you're trying to do, 8 okay, I'm trying to give enough in there to where we can 9 work together. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: It's going to be interesting 11 to see how much goes back into the general fund after this 12 year, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see what that is. 13 What's the Court's pleasure? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Give him nine. I'd 15 hate to see his jailers run around without any clothes on. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I would too. Line Item 17 334. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what we did? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. Jail Uniforms, 315. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which one? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 315. The next one I 22 have a question about is 334, Prisoner Supplies. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is that? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Prisoner Supplies covers 25 our mattresses, sheets, pillowcases, things like that. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 149 1 There's only so much we're really allowed to buy out of the 2 proceeds from commissary, like mattresses and sheets and 3 pillowcases. Our inmate uniforms are one, so we do that; we 4 keep it down by buying inmate uniforms out of the deal. But 5 with -- with that, I just don't feel -- and what we had come 6 up with in there, in 334, is we replaced a lot of things 7 last year, so I had already cut that line item. And I'm 8 just -- if you cut it more than what I cut it, I don't think 9 we're going to make it. I've always tried to watch ours and 10 look at our percentages, which is what the Judge did, and I 11 also try and figure up what we had already spent for the 12 year before and how many we had replaced the year before and 13 those items that we may not have to replace this year. 14 Inmate, you know, mattresses are fairly expensive. And, 15 unfortunately, inmates like to tear them up, because they 16 like to tear the seams out of them to use it for hiding 17 contraband and that. We have even had employees sew those 18 seams back shut, trying to save those mattresses, but after 19 just a little bit, you have to get rid of them, because I 20 can't allow them hiding places there. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is this line that -- 22 didn't you buy some -- like, a couple of food carts or -- 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- heating carts or 25 something like that? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 150 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Last -- no, I think that 2 came -- that may have come out of another line item. I'll 3 have to look at that, Buster. Maybe it was. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That's not the incident I'm 5 thinking about. That predated you, Sheriff, and I don't 6 think we want to go there. 7 MS. SOVIL: No, food cart. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The food cart? I 9 didn't -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But your 11 year-to-date -- 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That was out of my 13 salary. I know what you're talking about. I did not buy 14 those -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But your year-to-date 16 doesn't indicate you're going to expend that money. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Hmm? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your year-to-date 19 through July 31st doesn't indicate you spending that money. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right, 'cause we 21 had replaced those others the year before, so this 22 year-to-date, we may not have that much. Next year, I may. 23 I'm going two years on the same type mattresses, except for 24 a few we were able to get. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We could be here 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 151 1 weeks. Somebody say something. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the prior year was only 3 -- was under $3,500, according to the one I'm looking at 4 here now. Seems like you got by pretty good there. But 5 what's the Court's pleasure? No pleasure at this point, it 6 would seem. Utilities, that's an item that we've managed to 7 come down on. I understand that you've managed to adjust 8 the thermostats out there and make significant headway. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We did. But if you look 10 at my requested, we have -- we have tried, but my requested 11 went up to 140. If Commissioner Williams, with his 12 calculator there -- we had some bills this last year that 13 were $11,800. If you take that $11,800 times 12 -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 141,6. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I had requested 140, 16 and the recommended from the Judge is 120. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, let me tell you how I 18 got there. I got there by annualizing that, the 88,063, and 19 giving you a half month float in there, even though I 20 shouldn't give you that on the utility bill, 'cause those 21 are paid once a year, but I'd be willing to give you 22 something there on the adjustment for seasonal adjustment, 23 but that runs out to 111,237. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 88 would be what? 25 Nine months, right? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 152 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Ten months, through 7/31. 2 That leaves us August and September. But I did a division 3 factor of 9.5, rather than 10, even though it's probably 10 4 on a utility. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Our utility bills are 6 paid monthly, not once a year. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You had said once a year 9 a while ago. And the June -- March bill was $11,800, and I 10 take that bill. Some of them went anywhere from 11 -- some 11 went 10,8, but all the way up to 11,8. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And you say it was your June 13 bill that -- 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Either the March or 15 June. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 AUDIENCE: That was how much? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 11 thousand, 8. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That's included in the 88, so 20 we've got the high one in there for annualizing. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's what I did. I 22 took the high bill and annualized it. If all of them run 23 that, it's going to be 141. I put it back down to 140. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that's not the way I 25 annualize. I don't take the highest month out of 12 and -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 153 1 I like to take the average and multiply it by 12, and I 2 think that's what I'm doing. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I realize that's what 4 you're doing, Judge, but I don't -- I have -- there's too 5 many variables in it for me, and I don't like coming to this 6 Court for budget amendments when I'm operating outside my 7 budget. And I think you can see in our budget, we don't 8 splurge on things if we have money left over; it definitely 9 goes back to the general fund. But I try and cover our 10 expenses. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody else got any questions 12 about 420 -- I mean 440? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have a 14 problem with your number. I think maybe you may even be a 15 little high, because he's going to approach, in two months, 16 the current budget of 110. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But I took our high 18 bill, and that's what I was -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. Your 20 current budget's 110. You're at 88; you're $22,000 away 21 with two months to go. Have you got a demand meter out 22 there? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Glenn -- Glenn gets all 24 that. I couldn't tell you. Maintenance takes care of all 25 our stuff. I couldn't tell you what kind of meter was 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 154 1 hooked up out there when that building was built. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They did away with 3 demand, didn't they? The demand -- they did away with 4 demand -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not sure how that 6 operates. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think they did. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: There's not too much 9 variables in utilities. Increase or decrease the 10 temperature. It looks to me like it's not -- there's no way 11 it's going to be $140,000. It looks like it's going to be 12 $120,000 or less. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's -- that's 14 fine. We just have two different ways of figuring, and I 15 just don't want to run short. So, if you want to leave that 16 $120,000, I certainly hope that will be sufficient. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have any other items 18 there we need to talk about? 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Prisoner Transfer, 20 there's a wide variance in between the actual and the 21 requested and the recommended. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which one? 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 335. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Prisoner Transfer. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 335. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 155 1 JUDGE TINLEY: On the previous page. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, on your 3 Prisoner Transfer -- this is just for my own edification 4 here. As an example, when your folks went out to California 5 to get what's-his-name, and didn't -- Mr. Seard, didn't they 6 go out and interview -- was there a couple of trips involved 7 in it? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that -- is all of 10 that traveling in Prisoner Transfer? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. The second trip was 12 on the Department of Public Safety's ticket. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, that's right. 14 Would it have been? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Besides meals. No, not 16 necessarily. The first trip was under the investigative 17 expense; that's why we went over, because that was still 18 part of the investigation into this. What Prisoner Transfer 19 covers is any -- and it's close along the same lines. You 20 just have -- anybody that's arrested outside this 21 jurisdiction that we have to go get or we have to hire 22 Transcor to go get, whether it be in New York or wherever, 23 those costs come out of Prisoner Transfer. Not bringing in 24 inmates from the jail to the courthouse for court; that's 25 just our operations, okay? It's just going to pick up 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 156 1 inmates. We had tried to cut that down a lot over the last 2 few years by not using companies such as Transcor to do it. 3 We are using our own officers to do it. Carroll Schultz is 4 the main one that goes. He -- month before last, he put on 5 right at 10,000 miles on a car in one month, okay? But what 6 controls that so much is how many people get arrested in 7 other jurisdictions or in other areas that are wanted out of 8 here. It doesn't matter if it's a city warrant or a city 9 case, okay? If a warrant's issued, we're still the ones 10 that have to go get him. I don't think -- and this 7/31, 11 you had year-to-date expenses of $11,000. I don't think 12 that was quite right. Nancy, what were we -- it was, like, 13 as of just last week, 'cause I think that 7/31 is actually 14 the month before, the bills that were paid the month before, 15 not the bills during -- 16 MS. ROBISON: Those are June bills. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, they're June 18 bills. 19 MS. ROBISON: And Carroll Schultz is -- 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He just got back two 21 days ago from Arkansas, so you're going to see that go up 22 drastically. One year we cut it very close to that. We've 23 held it at $30,000 for several years. You know, I think if 24 you cut that that much, we're in trouble. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you transport any 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 157 1 out-of-county prisoners back and forth to their county? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you go into 4 Huntsville and get people for bench warrants? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, and that comes out 6 of that. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there -- 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's not that much. 9 Now, if we -- say we have somebody in custody in Del Rio, 10 and the Judge has issued a bench warrant. Then we have to 11 go to Del Rio and pick that subject up, and we have to take 12 him back to Del Rio after the case is done, because that's 13 on a bench warrant. Normally, we try to wait until Del 14 Rio's charges are taken care of and then go get them and 15 bring them here, and we don't have to take them back, and 16 that's normally what you try and do. We're currently 17 sitting at close to 2,000 outstanding arrest warrants, have 18 been for several years now. You never know how many of 19 those are going to get picked up or when or where they're 20 going to get picked up. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: When you have -- when you have 22 an expenditure for prisoner transport, I assume it's billed 23 fairly quickly after that transport occurs, is it not? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. What it would 25 normally be is -- is we may have an officer having hotel 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 158 1 bills, gas bills, or anything else, and when we get those 2 bills in, it's coded to that. Then -- and our gas cards, 3 that may be the following month or whatever. Transcor, it 4 may be a month or so before we get those bills, but normally 5 a month. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: God, was there an 7 original question to all this? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: $30,000 to $16,000. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a good 10 question. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, my calculations -- and, 12 here again, I'm -- I'm giving a float of a half a month, and 13 with a float of half a month, I calculate 14,3 when you 14 annualize on it that basis. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The last year alone, it 16 was 22,3. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And it's not going to go 19 down. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How would 25 sound? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You know, we'll try and 22 work with it. I won't say that we won't have budget 23 amendments at the end of this year. I don't know. 24 Hopefully we won't. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. For now, it's 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 159 1 25. It may not last through the end of next week, but -- 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I just don't know. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a start. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Moves us on to the next item, 5 though, doesn't it? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That's where we're going. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that is? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only one I think is 10 a little bit low is Radio Repairs. We have replaced the 11 radios inside the jail. Now -- now, part of the deal with 12 the radio towers and the radio system, it did not cover 13 radios. We were able -- if y'all will remember, we adjusted 14 some of that and did buy radios for the jail in that, and so 15 that has replaced all the radios in the jail. Radios in the 16 jail cost right at $500 apiece. With only $500 in Radio 17 Repair, if I had one broke, one goes down, all I can replace 18 for the entire year is one radio. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: What am I to think if I'm 20 looking at $202 for the first 10 months of the year? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because the purchase of 22 all the radios that we replaced came out of that bond. If I 23 wouldn't have replaced all those radios in the jail, which 24 was 35 of them, okay, your cost of radio repairs this year 25 alone in the jail out of that line item would have probably 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 160 1 been close to $10,000 that we didn't have. And so, in 2 visiting with Tommy and that, we -- we figured that that 3 could be added into that. We purchased those radios from 4 Dailey Wells, from the same company as the bond -- or as the 5 certificates, I guess is what it was, and replaced all those 6 radios in the jail. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy, haven't we made 8 some amendments recently on this? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Not to-date, I don't think 10 so. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, we've done some 12 amendments on radio repairs recently, 'cause you -- I've 13 made you do this presentation every time you walk in here. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In the Sheriff's Office 15 budget. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. Okay, excuse 17 me. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not the jail budget. 19 They are new radios, but if I have one go down, it's going 20 to cost $500 to replace one. And every radio has two 21 batteries with them, and batteries run about -- I think it's 22 $35 for those rechargeable batteries, apiece. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that the 25 Sheriff is probably right, and on this particular issue, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 161 1 we've been down this road so many times, and I'm willing to 2 go back up to $1,000, if that's enough. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's probably not, but 4 I'll leave it at that. I'm hoping -- and that's what I ask 5 for and it's what I hope we can get by with, but I just 6 don't think -- I think it's stretching it too thin to ask 7 that we only replace one radio. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you, if 9 it's that expensive to repair them. You know, I know some 10 law enforcement -- you know, like the D.P.S. guys, they keep 11 -- keep a couple of radios on the shelf for spare parts and 12 those kind of things, but you don't do that. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I'm trying, okay? 14 In that all the ones we replaced are old ones we had, we are 15 trying to see what it's going to cost to fix up some of 16 those to keep. They're at Advantage Communication right 17 now. They're going over them to give us an estimate so that 18 we can possibly have spares, but I don't know that they're 19 even worth fixing up to keep, because a lot of them, the 20 cases on them are broke, the batteries are bad. You know, I 21 don't know that -- that they're even worth trying to repair. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Next year at this 23 time, they'll have some on the shelf. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, along with those 25 extra cars. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 162 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. We'll be able to 2 cannibalize a lot of parts. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're only dealing 4 with human lives here, so how important is that? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I wrote down $1,000. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm there. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I did too. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only other change 9 that I -- or the other concern I had in that budget is 487, 10 being Training. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have any problem 12 understanding why I reached the conclusion I did? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have no problem 14 understanding why. You reached it because of our training 15 this year. Okay. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: And your training the prior 17 year, too. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But I do -- we have 19 tried -- my training coordinator, main one, is here. We try 20 and do a lot more of our training in-house. We did not send 21 any of the jail staff this year to the Jail Association 22 convention in South Padre, which we normally try to send our 23 Jail Administrator and those two. We did not send anybody 24 this year to outside our agency training on jail issues. We 25 tried to do most of our training in-house. And one of the 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 163 1 big reasons we are doing it in-house right now is because we 2 have updated, changed our policy and procedures manual. I 3 have changed our field training officer manual for the jail, 4 so we're trying to get people better trained on our in-house 5 stuff, you know, before I start sending them out on the 6 liabilities and that. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, I've got no problem 8 with the Training budget, if you'll use it for its intended 9 purpose, because I think that's the best investment you can 10 make in these officers, is training. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And if you'll give me the 13 assurance that you'll use it for that, I will gladly 14 recommend to this Court that they put it back to what you 15 requested at $8,000. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I will definitely, 17 Judge, give you the assurance that it will be used only for 18 training. If I find schools that are -- that are suitable 19 for the jail personnel, it will all be used for training. 20 But I'm not going to just send them to schools that have 21 nothing to do with jail to use up that budget. That's why 22 we give you some back each year. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Beneficial training. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: And that's what we all want. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 164 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do the COG's offer 2 jail training? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There's very few actual 4 jail courses. I brought it up at one of the Sheriff's 5 Association meetings; there's very few courses. A lot on 6 liabilities and that, but on day-to-day stuff, it's hard to 7 get, except for the initial 80-hour training course that a 8 jailer has to have anytime you hire a new one. And a lot of 9 those we're teaching in-house, and then we'll send them to 10 Austin to take the exam or we'll pay somebody to come down 11 here to give the exam. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does the COG offer 13 jail training? 14 AUDIENCE: Very little. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did y'all cut a deal? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff gave me the assurance 17 he'll use it for beneficial training for his officers, and 18 if he'll use it for that, then obviously whatever he doesn't 19 use for the right purpose is going to come back. Anyway, 20 I've got no problem with training; that's the best 21 investment we can make for those officers. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Without question. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you, Judge. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Goes back to six, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 165 1 Judge? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: No, eight. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Eight, he requested. Okay, I 5 guess -- is that -- where does that take us? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That takes us out of the 7 jail budget on all the operational stuff. Then you go to 8 the Sheriff's Office operating. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And that's going to get 10 us to Page -- 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 49? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: -- 49, correct. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The one -- there's very 14 few in here, Judge, that I asked -- or some that I actually 15 have problems with, the first one being 316, again being 16 uniforms for officers. The problem I have with that, if 17 your -- if we replace all uniforms, three shirts, three 18 pants -- and that's stretching it for an officer to wear 19 only those for a year -- you're right, we're at that $7,424 20 we're just fixing to order onto, so you're saying about 21 $8,000 on replacing that. If I have any turnover -- that 22 also includes the dispatchers uniforms, okay? So that would 23 cause it to go up a little bit more. The other thing is, we 24 are not furnishing hats for employees. We are not -- for 25 the deputies. I require them. They're required in our 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 166 1 dress code, but we do not pay for them, okay? I'm not 2 asking you to pay for them; these are just some of the 3 expenses. You know, when I was a deputy, it was either you 4 got a hat or you got a coat; you didn't get both. That's 5 the way the budget was done that year. 6 We furnished some coats two years ago, and I 7 think you can ask most of the officers what they thought of 8 the coats. I bought them 'cause -- they were bought at 9 K-Mart. I didn't like them, but they were still good coats, 10 but they are over two years old now also. For those who've 11 been working on patrol, I have not furnished coats in two 12 years. If we furnish coats, a good coat is $100 apiece, and 13 you can add that times another 50 -- well, 41 officers. 14 You're going to get into that. And then we also furnish the 15 badges now. I don't -- the officers don't go out and order 16 their -- or have their own badges, but most of that's 17 reused. We do have to replace one or two a year, but not 18 bad, and they're at $100 apiece. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What are they having 20 to buy besides their pistol? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: All their leather gear, 22 their hats, their weapons, any practice ammo that is not 23 used at Thunder Ranch, anything like that, they have to 24 furnish. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's quite an 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 167 1 investment. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. And our adjacent 3 department furnishes it all for their officers. We do not. 4 And there's a lot of studies on firearms and not being able 5 to allow your officers to carry good ones. We don't look 6 good under liability, but this is the way this county was, 7 and I don't think we're at the point yet where we can afford 8 to furnish 41 officers with $500 -- well, between $600 and 9 $700 weapons. So, I think we ought to at least be 10 furnishing uniforms. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: What's the Court's pleasure? 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: $12,000. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What did you say? 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: $12,000. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: As requested, $12,000. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Provided you don't 18 buy the coats at K-Mart. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They didn't like that. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What K-Mart? 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Oh, yeah. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only other one I 23 think is going to be close, Judge, is -- or one of the other 24 ones would be 330, being the Operating Expense. Last year, 25 as of July, we had spent $6,149, and you have it down to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 168 1 $6,000. Now, this year, true, we have kept it down. We're 2 going more and more computers, trying to cut out some. We 3 redid our magistration forms and all that, trying to cut out 4 some paper and costs, but it still gets expensive. And 5 we'll try it at $6,000. I don't know if that's enough in 6 Operating Supplies to run our department. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, he agreed to it. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I didn't agree to it. 9 I'm just saying I don't -- we'll try it. If that's what 10 y'all are going to give me, I don't have the choice. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Does that bring us to 12 the personnel items portion of your budget? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, sir, not yet. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh. That's what I understood. 15 I must have missed something. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Telephone. I'm sure, on 17 420, I know exactly what you did there on some of your line 18 item stuff, and we had this conversation. Telephone does 19 cover all our officers' cell phones and that. That does 20 vary. And the Judge and I even talked about maybe the 21 County trying to go out for an RFP and get one group cell 22 phone plan for everybody in the county. I think that would 23 be very advantageous so we can tie that down. Again, I took 24 one phone bill, and looking at one phone bill that we had 25 for one month, and that was with some overage on minutes 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 169 1 that officers ended up doing, I come up with about 2 $37,000-something, so I rounded it off to 38. The Judge 3 took the average of all the phone bills, I guess, that we've 4 got. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: With a float. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: With a little bit of 7 fluff, and came up with 34. I'm just concerned that -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I, frankly, think your cell 9 phone cost is probably -- because of the competitive nature 10 of it, I think your cell phone cost is going to -- you're 11 going to see it starting to decline -- 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I hope you're right. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: -- in coming years. I think 14 you got enough players in the game that the competition is 15 going to get stronger, and -- and we can see those costs 16 come down. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I hope you're right. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm working off, basically, 19 what you've done year-to-date. And annualizing that with 20 that 9.5-month instead of 10-month fluff, it runs right at 21 just a hair under 34. So, that -- I think costs are going 22 to go down. I don't -- I don't want to see that Kendall 23 County situation here, and I know you don't either. And I 24 want to give you some incentive to prevent a Kendall County 25 situation. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 170 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We already do that. If 2 I have -- in our cell phone bills, Nancy -- or the secretary 3 and I go through them, and if there are personal phone calls 4 that we find, the officer does pay for those phone calls on 5 cell phones and everything. And because of that, most 6 officers have two cell phones; one's their personal one and 7 one's the department one. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many cell phones 9 do you have for use in your department, Sheriff? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I couldn't tell you 11 offhand. 12 MS. ROBISON: 20. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: About 20. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 20? I think it's a 15 good idea to find out how many we have in use all through 16 the county system, and see what we can do in terms of 17 consolidating a bid. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think it should be 19 done. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think the Judge's 21 number will hold, though. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. Tommy, do you 23 have any thoughts about the cell phone consolidation? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Talking to me? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Wake up. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 171 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What did he say? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hello, Tommy. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You need to change 4 your medication, buddy. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's on Number 11 6 right now. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're talking about 8 trying to consolidate all the cell phones into one company 9 and one issue. What -- do you have any thoughts about that? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, yeah. I -- I mean, I 11 think it's something we ought to think about. We -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How long do you think 13 we should think about it? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: We've done that with the 15 Sheriff himself. At one point, we did have -- we had 16 numerous vendors that we purchased cell phones from. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We redid ours. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Sheriff's Office redid 19 theirs. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Is there -- 21 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't -- I don't know of 22 that many cell phones that are county cell phones out there. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I know we have -- what 24 Nancy said, about 20. Did you find -- I know there's 25 others. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 172 1 MS. SOVIL: According to departments, there's 2 22 I can swear to out there. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So you're talking 40 4 cell phones, probably. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I know the constables 6 got them, don't they? All you guys use them, don't you? 7 MR. AYALA: Personal. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's an idea we ought 10 to think about. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I mean, how long 13 do you think about it? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We can't authorize an RFP as 15 we sit here today. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what it is, an 17 RFP? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Put it out for bids. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The last two items I 21 have a question on in the Sheriff's Office budget is 464, 22 which is Crime Prevention. I agree, it's pretty well been 23 $500 every year. Last year we didn't spend much at all. 24 This year we have it so far, but as y'all -- most of y'all 25 are aware, that for several years -- that's what I was 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 173 1 talking about earlier, that that was donated; Triad wasn't 2 used at all. I know, Buster and Jonathan, y'all have been 3 with us at some of our crime prevention kind of classes or 4 talks that we have been putting on, and seen the materials 5 that Michael's been handing out, and I think crime 6 prevention is a very important tool. And I think just 7 working with the public and giving the public as much 8 information as we can is extremely important. We have 9 locksmith -- lock kits that we go by and do. We also now do 10 home inspections, because I finally this year have people 11 certified to be able to do those home inspections to allow 12 the homeowners to get a reduction in their insurance rate. 13 But it does take time and costs to get those things done, so 14 I did ask for an increase in that of $1,000 instead of $500. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I think of the crime 16 prevention very much like the training. I think it's a 17 wonderful investment. I think the return you get is a whole 18 lot better than a lot of other places, and if you'll use it 19 for that purpose, you know, I'll -- I'll gladly give it to 20 you. I was looking at -- at your year-to-date. You'd used, 21 what, 15 percent of it? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Of what you'd requested. 24 So -- 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because we -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 174 1 JUDGE TINLEY: -- if you'll use it for that, 2 I think it's a good investment. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Michael, when did you 4 get through with the home inspection course I sent you to? 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It was in the spring, so 7 that wasn't so long. So, we just started to kick off all 8 that. Buster knows. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I got no problem increasing 10 that back up to $1,000. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Done. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What number was that? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: 464. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's not giving Triad 16 anything. I never have, and I won't, 'cause I don't think 17 that's legal for me to give them anything. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I agree with you. I don't 19 think you're -- you're in the business of deciding who the 20 taxpayers of Kerr County ought to donate the funds to. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think Triad is a very, 22 very worthwhile program. What it does is help educate the 23 elderly on the scams and things like that. And Mike was on 24 their board. We attend monthly meetings, we give talks to 25 them and everything. I think it's a very worthwhile 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 175 1 program. I just was not comfortable -- and I know 2 Mr. Beltram, who runs it, is upset with me, 'cause that's 3 the way the City does fund theirs, is out of their line item 4 for crime prevention, and he cannot understand that I don't 5 feel like I have the authority to do that. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very wise, Rusty. 7 While we're in the neighborhood, could we go back to 462 and 8 get an explanation there, what all that's about? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Lease payments? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's the second and 12 third payments on our cars. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The existing cars? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. The first time we 15 purchase cars, it comes out of Capital Outlay. After that, 16 Tommy moves it up to the lease payments. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So, 570 is -- 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is what? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Is where we would get 21 the cars. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Is that the last item 23 that you were referring to that you -- 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I got one -- 487, 25 Training Schools. Again, we're at the training. One of the 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 176 1 biggest things in this, Judge, is that our training budget 2 covers the cost of ammo for the firearms training. It 3 covers the cost of the Thunder Ranch fees. It covers the 4 cost of the meal we have to serve when we're out at Thunder 5 Ranch, okay, for all the officers, and it does that twice a 6 year on just Thunder Ranch. That cost by itself is going to 7 be in the neighborhood of $12,000 to $15,000. I had asked 8 for $25,000 last year. We were at 24, but if you go $12,000 9 to 15,000 for just the cost of the firearms alone, and you 10 cut that down to $18,000, then I have anywhere from $3,000 11 to $5,000 to train 41 officers, plus we also train 12 dispatchers, sending them through the schools, and even some 13 of our clerks. Because, like, the personnel clerk, I send 14 them through the F.L.S.A. stuff, updates and that and 15 different things, and I don't think $3,000 to $5,000 is 16 going to anywhere cover that. I'd like to keep it at the 25 17 that I asked for. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: When was the last time you 19 were at Thunder Ranch doing your training? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We've only done one, and 21 that was April. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Of this year? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. And we will be 24 doing the other one -- I think they have it scheduled for 25 September. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 177 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. So, the figure that 2 we've got here through July included your April stint at 3 Thunder Ranch? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But it does not include 7 the second one. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: September? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: September. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's the most -- 12 that's the largest expense out of that training. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. TCLEOSE requires you -- 14 what, once a year? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, on firearms 16 training. This is a deal that was worked several years ago 17 between the City, City of Fredericksburg, us, sometimes 18 Boerne, I believe. And, personally, TCLEOSE requirements -- 19 the basic requirement is one time a year to qualify and 20 shoot 60 rounds. You can go out in the gravel pit, which is 21 what our department did for all the years that I worked for 22 it before becoming Sheriff, and you can shoot 60 rounds at a 23 cardboard target, and you're qualified. Okay? That is in 24 no way sufficient to train an officer in the use of 25 firearms. Thunder Ranch, they do actual scenarios. They 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 178 1 use simulated-type guns, where they actually go in and clear 2 buildings, they do all type of searches, different things. 3 They shoot a minimum of about 300 rounds per officer during 4 their qualification out there. And I think, due to 5 liability -- and just so you know, I had one officer this 6 last year that is no longer employed with me that could not 7 qualify at Thunder Ranch. We've upped our qualifications. 8 My qualification is very stringent, it's very firm, and if 9 an officer can't qualify at Thunder Ranch -- they could 10 qualify if they shot 60 rounds in a gravel pit, but they're 11 not going to qualify with the training that Thunder Ranch 12 requires and what we require at Thunder Ranch unless they 13 shoot their guns and they actually work at it, and I think 14 that is extremely important. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the current policy that 16 you have in place, personnel policy -- 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- requires twice annual? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And that's a decision 21 you made for your department, obviously to have a better 22 department? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. The very first -- 24 when we first went to Thunder Ranch with the City, very 25 first year we did it, it was three times a year. And then, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 179 1 between the City and -- City of Fredericksburg, City of 2 Kerrville, and myself, everybody decided three times a year, 3 300 rounds each time per officer, was getting to where we 4 wouldn't do it. Now, when the City went through their 5 lawsuit several years ago for having to shoot a young man 6 and kill him, one of the things that the lawsuit -- and our 7 same attorney that defends us in our lawsuits is the one 8 that defended the City, and they were using Thunder Ranch at 9 that time, and they were using it three times a year. And 10 although the City won that lawsuit, the one deal -- and the 11 jury in that federal lawsuit said they needed to do more 12 training. But there is a cost factor in there where you 13 have to finally draw the line. I could have them out there 14 every day trying to shoot, but, you know, I mean, it's 15 expensive; there's no doubt. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have a contract with 17 Thunder Ranch for -- 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: -- annual use it of it? It 20 would seem to me -- I don't know. It would seem to me, if 21 you got a requirement for annual, certainly, that would be a 22 one-time-a-year user. If you're going to be a multiple user 23 in a single year, you ought to be able to cut a contract 24 with them to get some sort of break by using it twice a 25 year. I don't know. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 180 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, we do get -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: It occurs to me that's how 3 things work in the world. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We do get a large break. 5 Most people that go out there one time, their range fees are 6 $3,000. For our department to go out there one time, our 7 range fee is $1,500, so we're already getting a large break 8 in what we originally set down years ago and talked with 9 them about. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What does it cost to 11 take your men out there to Thunder Ranch for a session, 12 total? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'd have to figure in 14 the overtime. Because, yeah, that's -- if you're talking 15 total cost, the overtime isn't coming out of here, but we -- 16 all our guys have to go out there on their off-duty time. 17 We have to -- personnel tone them out. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess what I'm 19 driving at, Sheriff, you spent $14,266 through July 31st, 20 and you've been to Thunder Ranch once. You're going to go 21 back again. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that the number? 24 $14,000 to go back? Or what? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I've got $6,000 of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 181 1 ammo on order right now to be able to -- to furnish for the 2 September one. Then you're going to have another $1,500 3 range fee on that. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: 75. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If you do not have 6 officers that qualify that first time, we give them two more 7 attempts at it, so that's another -- well, we pay for the 8 first attempt and second attempt, actually, on the 300 9 rounds per officer that don't qualify, for the ammo. And 10 then, after that, they're paying for the ammo on their own. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: So, you're looking -- 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Got a meal in there, 13 too. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: 75 -- well, okay, figure 15 another thousand. About $8,500. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: About 22,7. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And then that's only if 19 I don't send any other officers through any other training. 20 And I've already got some going, even leaving this weekend, 21 to some other training and that, which will add up with 22 hotel rooms and things like that. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Only response I can give you, 24 how I got to the 18 is I annualized it, put some fluff on 25 it. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 182 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I understand how you got 2 to the 18, but what I need to be able to make that line item 3 suffice and train my officers is the 25 I requested. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 24 won't do it? 5 That's where you are now. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 24 won't do it. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: 24 is going to be cutting it 8 pretty close. You're putting down 24? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I haven't put 10 anything down. I just wrote a line through the old number. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm going to write 12 down 25. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Works for me. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't disagree with your 15 policy on more than the minimum. I think it's -- it's good, 16 sound -- good, sound planning. And I think, in the long 17 run, it will serve you. You'll probably make up that money 18 somewhere else, be it in liability suits or prevention of 19 injury to your officers when they're out; if they get in a 20 situation, they're better able to handle it. I don't 21 disagree with the policy. I think it's a good policy. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, you said that was it. 24 Now we're to the personnel, right? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 183 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We got Capital Outlay. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I am shocked. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Capital Outlay is cars. 6 You don't have anything in there. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you recall -- 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You didn't deny them; 9 you just left it blank 'cause you said you're going to let 10 the Court decide that. I agree, but I need cars. I gave in 11 my budget the -- the alternatives on cars. We gave you two 12 different proposals that I was asked to look at it. One was 13 for the six cars, as we have gotten every year since we 14 started this program, and one was for four cars. I totally 15 disagree with cutting from six to four, but what I -- I 16 programmed in that Capital Outlay line item was four cars. 17 We've put way too many miles every year on cars to -- and 18 you have our exact figures. In fact, it's one of the 19 largest sections in there, so I won't go over it in detail, 20 but it will show you what all our maintenance costs have 21 been, what our mileage has been on all the cars, and exactly 22 where we stand on them, what year model cars we have and 23 what the current mileage was on those cars at the time this 24 budget was prepared for you. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: There's your inventory. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 184 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. I finally got 2 it. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If we go to four cars a 4 year, our department has 40 -- 42. I'll have to look at it. 5 That's 10 years to replace our cars, to rotate all the way 6 through the department. That would mean if we really want 7 to look at trying to get constables cars that are used ones 8 from the Sheriff's Department, it could mean 10 years before 9 they get them, because we're going to have to rotate them 10 through our department. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: With the purchase of 12 four? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: With the purchase of 14 four. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, what if we 16 purchase six? How many cars does that free up for our 17 constables? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This next year? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Immediately. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Immediately? It will 21 free up four. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have four 23 constables. We have something working. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But I promise they won't 25 want to drive the four they're going to get. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 185 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, okay. I'm not 2 even going to sit here and argue with you, 'cause it's not 3 worthy of the argument, but it's just -- what in the world 4 did they do before we started buying six brand-new cars? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We had cars, when they 6 pulled out of the parking lot, the wheels fell off. 7 Literally, Buster. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't agree with 9 that. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We had serious problems 11 with cars. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand -- I 14 agree that you had serious problems, but we have come a 15 long, long way here. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When we initiated 17 this program, Sheriff -- and I take credit for initiating 18 the program; the Court bought it four years ago. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The idea was then, 21 and still is, that we would -- we would matriculate down 22 four cars ultimately for our constables. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, since the program 25 began until now, you have 24 cars that are either one, two, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 186 1 three, or four years old. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I recall prior to 4 that, it was either they bought a used car or maybe you 5 bought one, or maybe you bought none, so I know where you 6 are or where you were when we initiated the program. But I 7 think the time is now for constables to get cars. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I can give them cars. 9 If we get our four, I can give them cars, Judge. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Four that will run. 11 Four that are not beat up beyond repair. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's wheels and 13 motors and windows and everything. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: More than apple 15 crates for seats. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, they don't have 17 to have windows. (Laughter.) 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner 19 Williams, that plan about providing cars to the constables, 20 did that envision giving the cars to them? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It envisioned the 22 County continuing to own them, yeah. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, Commissioner, I 24 have one right now, Car Number 17; it's a 1994 Chevy that, 25 as of April of this year, had 229,977 miles on it. That 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 187 1 would be one of the four we're replacing. That would be one 2 of the four I'd be having to give up to give to the 3 Commissioners -- I mean to the constables. I have no 4 problem giving them that car. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My question would be, 6 what have you given them? My question again, Sheriff, is 7 what have you given them? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I haven't given them 9 anything. Because the ones we replaced with those 24 that 10 we have gotten -- if you will recall, Philpott Motors, they 11 know Kerr County right now, because they had to have them 12 all towed, the ones that we replaced, back to Philpott 13 Motors, 'cause they could not drive them. They tried to, 14 and they made it about halfway to San Antonio and had to 15 call one of their big trucks to come pick up cars. We 16 haven't gotten to the point that I can give the constables 17 reliable vehicles. We haven't replaced enough of our old 18 junkers, okay? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Another 10 years? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can't support that 21 theory either, wait another 10 years. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, if we get four 23 cars a year, I have 41 cars, something like that, in the 24 department. That's how long it takes to rotate them 25 through. Now, there is a factor in there that once in a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 188 1 while we seize a car that we can use. Okay? We have 2 tried -- we had a couple of the old, old C.I.D. cars where 3 we traded them to Ken Stoepel and got another one -- you 4 know, one C.I.D. car out of that, with a little bit going to 5 the Ford Tauruses, and we've been able to help replace some 6 of those. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here's another -- 8 here's another approach, Sheriff. What if the Court skipped 9 this year for giving the Sheriff's Department four new cars 10 and gave them to the constables, and resumed your six car 11 program next year? Where would that put you? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That would put me with 13 patrol guys -- some of those guys, the warrant guy that's 14 driving 10,000 miles a month, starting out having to use a 15 car with over 200,000 miles on it. That will not make it 16 through a year. If you don't give me any cars this year, 17 we're going to have to be coming back during the middle of 18 the budget year asking for cars, 'cause I will not be able 19 to make this year without cars. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You said you had 41 21 cars, and it' going to take 10 years, because it takes that 22 long to rotate through? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So next year, you're 25 going to come back and say I've got 47 cars; it' going to 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 189 1 take 15 years to rotate through. I'm not -- 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, no, that's not our 3 car number -- without adding other positions and things like 4 that, the number of cars we need's not going up, Buster. 5 Number of cars we have next year should be 41 cars. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Of the 41, how many 7 are on the road at any one given time of the day, on deputy 8 patrol? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: On deputy patrol? Six. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Six? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Five or six. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What are the other 35 13 doing? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Warrants, civil, 15 criminal investigations, jail, mine, the chief deputy's. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But of those -- of 17 that 35, they're not racking up the miles like the patrol 18 cars are. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, they aren't. On -- 20 in that tab, fifth page behind the -- under 10-560 that you 21 have in your notebook, your -- your budget book I gave -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's this other 23 great big book I've got. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The other great big 25 book. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 190 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That I've been 2 seriously trying to avoid. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It tells you everything 4 about our cars. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which tab? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay, under the 10-560 7 tab. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 10-560 tab. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And go to the -- one, 10 two, three, four, fifth -- sixth tab behind that one. You 11 should have the little white tabs. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, which one? 13 Which tab? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 10-560. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got it. How many? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Sixth tab. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One, two, three, 18 four, five, six. Bingo. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It should -- if you open 20 that, that should start out with our car, okay? Now, if you 21 will go to -- one, two, three -- probably about the fourth 22 page, Commissioner, you should come up with this type of 23 page. Yours is a little bit different, 'cause I moved mine 24 around. This is the page I'm wanting you to see. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My book's different 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 191 1 than his book. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That page tells you what 3 we have and what the mileage and the year model of those 4 cars were, what the year model and what cars we have right 5 now, what the mileage on those cars were as of April when we 6 were starting to prepare our budget. And which ones are on 7 patrol, which ones are the C.I.D., administration, and jail. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The point being? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Your -- your question 10 was about if we don't, where are we and what kind of 11 mileage? All I can do is to point out to you so that you 12 can see exactly what we have, what the mileage and year 13 model of those cars were back in April, okay? And how -- 14 which ones are on patrol and which ones are not. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: How many different units do 16 you use for patrol? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 24. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: 24 patrol units? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mm-hmm. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And you said at any one 21 time, there's six on the road? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: What do you have, three shifts 24 and a reserve? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Four shifts. Six times 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 192 1 four is 24. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Six-hour shifts? 3 MS. SOVIL: Three shifts and a reserve. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the reserve is the 5 weekend, et cetera. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I don't even look 7 at weekends. That's just -- we work seven days a week, 24 8 hours a day. It's four shifts, six on -- if everybody's on 9 duty, it puts six cars on the road. That's 24 cars. Each 10 officer is assigned a car. Now, there has been a study done 11 several times about going to what the City is doing, which 12 is parking cars, okay? Officers drive their own cars -- 13 personal vehicles in to work and then use the patrol car at 14 that time. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: An assigned patrol vehicle? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: An assigned vehicle. 17 That -- that's what the City of Kerrville does. Maintenance 18 costs will skyrocket when you do that, and I think it's been 19 shown that maintenance costs would skyrocket, because you're 20 running those cars 10, 20 hours a day at times, okay? 21 Ten-hour shifts overlap, and -- I'm sorry, not 10-hour; 22 12-hour shifts, 6:00 to 6:00, and you could be running them 23 24 hours, depending on how you set up your deal. You have 24 different drivers for those cars. Our officers carry a lot 25 of gear with them, okay, that they would have to constantly 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 193 1 move in and out, which -- which is a cost. But one of the 2 biggest things that was there, and this Court talked about 3 last year -- we left it at that, because we know sooner or 4 later, once the department gets big enough, we're going to 5 have to go to something like that, because you can't keep 6 buying more and more -- 100 cars each year or something. 7 But when we get into the employees' salaries and we get into 8 benefits that Kerr County offers and things like that, they 9 decided at least one of the other benefits was that the 10 County officers have a car. The second benefit to the 11 department, greatly, is we have officers that live all over 12 the county, and they have cars at all those locations. 13 Floods, anything going on in that end of the county, it's -- 14 we're not like the City of Kerrville, where our backup 15 officers -- somebody else is within a couple of blocks from 16 them. My guys, the nearest officer or partner working may 17 be 40 miles from him, but we may have somebody that lives 18 within a mile. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think the 20 Sheriff's arguments are sound on this, and I've given it 21 some thought. One of those deputies lives out on 1340, and 22 that's 25 or 30 miles from the Sheriff's Department. When 23 he pulls out of his driveway, he's a working police officer, 24 so I think that has a lot of value in terms of productivity. 25 Value to the citizens, and I also think it's a valuable perk 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 194 1 that makes up a little bit for the fact that we don't pay as 2 much as other law enforcement agencies. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hold on to the perk 4 theory here for a little while. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes, sir. I was 6 reluctant to use that argument; I knew there'd' be a price. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we have to 8 find a solution here, Sheriff. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: What about some sort of middle 10 ground, Sheriff, where you've got these officers, some that 11 live out in the environs of the county, and -- and I agree, 12 this is going to change as officers come and go, but -- and 13 granted, the number of miles are -- are still going to 14 continue to accumulate, maybe on a fewer number of vehicles, 15 but I agree that the more coverage we have out in the far 16 reaches of the county with these officers living there is a 17 benefit. But it sure would be nice if we could reduce some 18 of this one-officer-to-a-vehicle situation. What sort of 19 middle ground do you reach? I don't know what's practical 20 and what's feasible. But, like you say, you know, you're 21 going to have to do it someday as things continue to grow; 22 you're going to have a -- you're going to have a compound 23 with all these vehicles in it, and your people are going to 24 have to come in and, quote, draw their vehicle and then go 25 to work. But I like the idea of -- of having the benefit of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 195 1 some of them scattered out and around, but I'd sure like to 2 reduce the number of vehicles we got, too. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't think -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know what the answer 5 is. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't think you can 7 fairly give certain officers vehicles and other officers not 8 vehicles or -- or things like that. You could possibly try 9 and rotate them; you know, you get it for this month, you 10 get it for next month, like that. But where -- the whole 11 bottom line there, Judge, is we're taking the public's view 12 of what they're seeing, and including the crooks, okay, of 13 our patrol guys out there, of our cars. That's one of our 14 big crime preventions that's not in our crime prevention 15 line item, is seeing those cars out there. It's hard enough 16 to get the public to see them with only five to six officers 17 working at a time, but then when you take away the cars, as 18 Commissioner Nicholson said, that when -- as soon as they 19 pull out of their driveway, they are on duty and they're 20 working and they're in that car on that end of the county. 21 If you take that away, too, then I think we're shooting 22 ourselves in the foot. I -- I agree, someday it's going to 23 come to the point where we're going to have to work up some 24 kind of rotation. I don't feel we're there yet. 25 I think that law enforcement effectiveness in 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 196 1 this county, as large as it is, unless we really increase 2 the staff, and then you're going to increase cars no matter 3 what you do, okay, is going to hurt severely once you do 4 that. And I'm of the opinion we need as many cars on the 5 road at all the times that we can keep them there as 6 possible. I -- I'm totally in favor of furnishing cars to 7 the constables. Once we get these old yellow ones that we 8 have and all this rotated down, I think that's a very viable 9 plan. But I have to -- our department went for so many 10 years that we were getting two, three cars, that we got so 11 far behind, and you saw what that did. We literally had 12 cars pull out of the parking lot, turn onto Clearwater 13 Paseo, and lose wheels, and I think that's way too 14 dangerous. This Court, especially with Commissioner 15 Williams and them starting it, started trying to take care 16 of that after -- right after I took office, right about the 17 time I'd taken office. We've been able to replace 24 of 18 those cars. I still have six yellow ones out there, those 19 old ones, and it still shows right now, in April, we had 20 230,000 miles on some cars. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, you 22 have some firm indication that your constables want one of 23 these cars? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm pretty certain 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 197 1 that Precinct 4 Commissioner will not want one. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That could be the 3 case. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Not Commissioner. 5 Commissioner surely doesn't want one of them. Constables. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That could be the 7 case, and that would be three, as opposed to four. Sheriff, 8 I want you to be clear; I'm not trying to diminish your 9 fleet. You worked too hard to replace your fleet. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I appreciate it. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I don't disagree 12 with you in terms of your deputies taking the car home. If 13 you call it a perk, it's a perk. I don't care what you call 14 it. The visibility of the car has value out there, wherever 15 it is. I understand that, and I agree wholeheartedly. But 16 what I don't understand is why, in this particular 17 situation, if you were to get four new cars this year, as 18 you've requested, down from six, why you couldn't add those 19 four to your fleet where they're needed, and rotate some of 20 the higher-mileage ones down to other positions where the 21 utilization is not as great, and spring four cars. For 22 example, under Criminal Investigation, you got a 36,000-mile 23 car. Under Warrants, Civil, you got a couple; you got one 24 43,000. Jail, you got one at 47,000. S.R.O., you got one 25 at 46,000. I can go on. My point is, I think you could 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 198 1 rotate some of the higher-mileage cars into some of these 2 positions and shift some of those cars to constables. 3 That's the point I just -- 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I'd -- like I 5 said, I have no problem giving cars and getting cars to the 6 constables, okay? But in my taking care of the Sheriff's 7 Department and the jail, I'm sorry to say this, but why 8 would I rotate out of my department a better car than I'm 9 going to keep? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would leave that 11 decision to you, so long as the three or four that trickle 12 down are worth the money to trickle them down, and they're 13 operable. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The three or four that 15 would trickle down are the three or four that we would be 16 through with, that I would be replacing with the four that I 17 get, and those four are going to be my high-mileage cars 18 that maintenance costs are starting to go up, and that we 19 don't want in that department any more at this time, because 20 we haven't replaced our entire fleet on this six-car program 21 yet. We're trying to jump the gun a little bit too quick on 22 getting these cars through there. But once -- you know, and 23 so that's causing me to give down to Joel or any of the 24 other constables cars with 230,000 miles on them. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With all due respect, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 199 1 Sheriff, you -- following that rationale through, you will 2 never find a time -- a place and time where you have 3 sufficient cars that are not high-mileage that you're 4 willing to part with, if you follow that rationale all the 5 way through. That's all I'm going to say on it. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all I'm going 7 to say on it, too. Judge, I've written in -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That's the end of the 9 discussion. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Since we've been 11 beating it, I guess so. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I wrote $46,535. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You may be the only one that 14 did that; I don't know. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, I may be wrong. 16 I'm sure -- that's four cars, isn't it? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's four cars. I 18 haven't put it in there. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got an eraser. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So, you're leaving in 21 there four cars, not six? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I am. I'm only one, 23 though. These other three have not spoken. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We're talking about 25 personnel here. The last comment I would make, Commissioner 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 200 1 Williams, is any of our cars are going to be on the road. 2 And not -- not to knock Joel; most of your constables have 3 other jobs on top of it. Any of our fleet is going to be on 4 the road longer or more often than the constable cars. 5 That's what I'd like to say. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand that. 7 MR. AYALA: Constable job is my number-one 8 priority. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm sorry, I can't hear you. 10 MR. AYALA: My constable job is my number-one 11 priority. Anything I do on the side is minimal. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm sorry, I still can't hear 13 you. You got to understand, this thing's blowing away at 14 me. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He's saying his 16 constable job is his number-one priority. Anything else he 17 does on the side is minimal. Correct? 18 MR. AYALA: Correct. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Sheriff, you weren't 21 here this morning when the Judge explained what he had 22 plugged in for salaries. Perhaps you know this. What he's 23 plugged in was a COLA increase not included, but longevity 24 and education increases are included, and if we went through 25 the budgets of other departments this morning, we didn't -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 201 1 didn't attempt to make any decisions about pay levels. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree, and I respect 3 that. But there's some problems with his figures that I 4 have, and I'd like to bring up just a -- 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I just want to let 6 you know, you're not going to get an answer on the pay. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't expect an 8 answer, thank you, but I would like to do a presentation 9 that I think is very important. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I didn't -- you can 11 do that. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Going back on the 13 original budget and the cover sheet that I have, the letter 14 I wrote to each of y'all -- and one of the reasons I've been 15 trying to work out our operational as much as I can, and I 16 agree with y'all, is I had stated in there that I felt it 17 was time we concentrated on our employees. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On what? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: On our employees. I 20 feel that was the -- my main goal at this time as Sheriff, 21 that I need to start taking care of the employees, and need 22 to start attempting to stand up for them and treat them 23 right. I think Commissioner Nicholson hit the nail on the 24 head when he was talking about the low poverty level or the 25 low Medicare/Medicaid level. And I -- there's one thing -- 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 202 1 and I know Commissioner Baldwin does not like to see 2 comparisons. I think he does like to see graphs, 'cause he 3 didn't like my handwriting last time, but these are some 4 things that -- this is the job pool I have to pick from, is 5 the City of Kerrville. The City of Kerrville is the 6 competitor I have in trying to keep employees. Looking 7 through theirs right now, there are 16 City of Kerrville 8 employees that at one time were Kerr County employees, good 9 Kerr County employees. I don't like seeing that. So, if 10 you would bear with me, I'd like to do this presentation and 11 let you see some facts and figures that we came up with. 12 This is officer's starting salary, as it is right now. Kerr 13 County jail officers, Kerr County dispatchers are at 14 $20,313. Starting deputy salary is $26,001. Starting 15 Kerrville police officer's salary is $30,700. This is the 16 dispatch supervisor salary. The reason I throw this one in 17 is the City's dispatch supervisor has not even been their 18 dispatch supervisor for a year yet; he was my dispatch 19 supervisor. My dispatch supervisor salary is $23,557. The 20 City's is 37,104. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Excuse me. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Excuse me. Why would 24 your dispatch person be less than a deputy? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's a good question. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 203 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the answer? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't have one. 3 Salaries aren't fair. That's the dispatch supervisor; 4 that's the only answer I have. That's the salary that was 5 set. City of Boerne was so nice, they sent us an e-mail the 6 other day, August the 10th, 2003, advertising for a 7 dispatcher. My regular dispatcher salary is $20,313, same 8 as the jailer. This is my supervisor's salary. The 9 starting salary for this position -- this is City of 10 Boerne -- as of October 1, 2001, is $24,877. My dispatchers 11 can go to work for the City of Boerne, live in Kerr County, 12 and make five -- 4,800 -- $4,500 more. That's just their 13 dispatchers. I can't keep good employees. This is what I'm 14 getting at, Buster, when I say I feel we've done good, but I 15 just can only do so much without losing people. Salary line 16 item totals. I threw this in because this is the Kerrville 17 Police Department's salary line item total. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many -- 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This covers -- I'll get 20 to that. There's 62 employees with the Kerrville Police 21 Department, okay? And their line item total is $2,304,000. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For 62? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For 62. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would be patrol 25 officers? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 204 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Patrol -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The whole department? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right, their 4 secretaries, dispatchers, and office -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Entire department. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, including the 7 Chief. That $2,304,000 is more than my entire Sheriff's 8 Department budget, including your six cars that we fight 9 over and everything else. That's more than my entire 10 Sheriff's Department budget. Not jail, Sheriff's 11 Department. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Were not fighting, 13 Sheriff; we're debating. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Debating, thank you. 15 Mine is $1,449,530. This is overtime. City's budget for 16 overtime for their officers right now is $100,000 a year. 17 Our overtime budget for several years has been $25,000. The 18 Judge's proposal in this budget cuts that to $16,000. My 19 jail has been $15,000; the Judge's proposal cuts it to 13. 20 I do try and limit our overtime as much as we can, but one 21 of the ways it's limited is, my officers don't put in for 22 half the overtime they do, which is a shame. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's also unlawful. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But that's what they do, 25 because they know I'm tight with overtime. They know we're 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 205 1 only sitting at $25,000. And they do that out of dedication 2 to Kerr County. That may sound a little bit iffy, but 3 that's the honest truth. This is our current -- and let me 4 explain this, and the next slide will explain it more. And 5 what I requested in my budget this year for salaries, which 6 would include the longevity, cost-of-living, and education 7 being given to the officers -- this is what I'm reading down 8 here at bottom. That really doesn't come out very clear. 9 It's with longevity, education, COLA on the anniversary 10 dates. If he's been here a year as of today, it's going to 11 reflect it in the next pay period, okay? In doing that with 12 my Sheriff's Department deputies, that's what I need in our 13 budget, a hundred -- 1,167,433 -- or 473. That's what I 14 requested. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That does not address 16 the disparity between a deputy and a police officer, does 17 it? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. That's just to give 19 our people what they earned in that. With just longevity, 20 Barbara had come up with 1,119,774. With longevity and 21 COLA, but without figuring in the education, 'cause, of 22 course, you wouldn't know exactly when our people are going 23 to get the education -- the certificates, Barbara came up 24 with 1,147,717. The Judge's figure here of 1,087,504, I 25 don't know where it came from, Judge. It will not cover my 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 206 1 education by itself. It will not cover longevity by itself, 2 and it does not have a COLA in it. It will -- it will come 3 in between, but it won't cover any one item, even by itself. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, does -- did you 5 say the blue line includes two new employees? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Includes what? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Two new employees. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You didn't say that? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The blue line covers my 13 current employees in the Sheriff's Department budget, not 14 the jail. I'm sorry, it includes -- it is just the 15 deputies' salary. Okay? And it includes a cost-of-living, 16 the educational, and the longevity, with those raises being 17 given on anniversary dates of longevity and on anniversary 18 dates when they get their educational certificate. Okay? 19 This is what I tried to explain with our longevity, and our 20 cost-of-living/longevity. And the policy that's currently 21 in effect, that -- you didn't like my line I drew that day 22 in Commissioners Court when we were trying to figure -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What this amounts to, 25 Buster -- oops -- is if "X" employee is here prior to the 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 207 1 Nash study, as of Nash, he became a 19-1. This is deputies. 2 He is not -- because of that policy, the way it's written, 3 he is not entitled to a longevity raise until October of 4 this year to become a 19-2. He didn't get the -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: After the Nash study? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: After he came to work 7 prior to the Nash. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Prior to Nash. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. So he could have 10 been here since 1995, doesn't matter, or 1985. He went to 11 that with Nash, okay? So, because he went to that with Nash 12 and that was a raise with Nash study, then he's not entitled 13 to a one-year anniversary raise, so what he gets is -- he 14 has to wait till the fourth year, and goes to a 19-2. If 15 "Y" starts November of 2000, which was after the Nash study 16 and after that October date, and he started in November of 17 2000, he's a 19-1 in October of 2000 -- well, it'd actually 18 be November, because that's when he started. A year later, 19 October of 2002, (sic) he's going to a 19-2. The person 20 that's been here up to even 10 years before him is making 21 less for a year because of that longevity, because of the 22 way this policy is written, 'cause he's not -- this guy's 23 entitled to one step increase after he's been here a year, 24 because he came after the Nash study. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When did you discover 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 208 1 this disparity? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is what I tried to 3 raise several months ago, and I think Barbara was asked and 4 I was asked if we could come up with a new proposal, and I 5 had that. Everybody raised it, and everybody questioned it. 6 And my line drawing on the little paper chart I had over 7 here wasn't very well, and I didn't do very good and nobody 8 could understand it, so we're trying again. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, let me see if I can 10 get something corrected. I apologize for interrupting you. 11 You've got three officers, James, Rodriguez, and Lavrakas, 12 that are COPS officers, correct? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That are on your roster. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, because the COPS 16 grants expire. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Right, mm-hmm. I arrived at 18 that $1,087,504 by taking the position schedule, which 19 included those three officers, and for which there's a 20 separate budget, backing those three salaries out of there 21 from your request of 1,167. That's how I got there. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Aren't we obligated, 23 by having accepted those dollars, to fund that? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a separate budget -- 25 there's a separate budget for those three officers. That's 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 209 1 why I backed them out of this one. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Judge, we didn't include 3 those in this one. We have them in that separate budget. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, does that 5 mean that that chart I saw earlier is apples and oranges? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That you've got -- 8 you've got three fewer officers in your numbers than the 9 Sheriff does? No, it doesn't? 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. We had those -- we 11 had those officers in that S.R.O. budget. They aren't in 12 here in this -- in this. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But I thought I 14 heard you say that red line might be erroneous. That red 15 line's good? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I calculated that red 17 line based upon the 1,167,473 which he requested, and I 18 reduced that by the salary line items for the three COPS 19 officers which were on the position schedule which he 20 furnished to me. And when you add them back in, it doesn't 21 add up. So, you know -- 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, this is not an 23 apples-and-apples comparison. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the blue -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Not as far as I'm concerned, 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 210 1 it's not. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The blue line doesn't 3 have them in there either. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, according to the 6 Sheriff, that is apples and apples. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I gave you individual 9 sheets on each officer if they were added up with our deal. 10 What you got -- remember, if you got something else from -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: No, the individual sheets that 12 you're talking about was what you calculated the 13 longevity/education policy ought to be, in your view and 14 opinion, where each officer had his own anniversary date, 15 and you could have two in one year and those kind of things 16 that we discussed. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's exactly what 18 this number is, okay, is that. And that's what the next 19 slide that -- when you went out to pick up that, I'm not 20 saying what we were explaining. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me understand -- let me 24 have you understand where I was coming from. You made all 25 these various sheets where you calculated separate 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 211 1 anniversary dates, and if there was an educational increase 2 in the same year that there was a longevity increase, you 3 allowed it and calculated it both in the same year, which is 4 contrary to what the existing policy of this Court is, I 5 think -- 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: -- without any question. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Judge, that's exactly 9 right. And you even asked me if I would go back and 10 recalculate it without the COLA in it, and also as with the 11 existing policy. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Exactly. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I told you no, I 14 wouldn't do that. And I told you I wouldn't do that because 15 I felt very strongly that -- and what I was showing in this 16 next slide, that it's a very unfair policy; it puts people 17 that have worked here longer making less than somebody 18 that's worked here a shorter period of time. And when we 19 get down into it in just a minute a little bit more -- I 20 didn't get to explain that next slide, so I feel that my 21 duties and my job as Sheriff, okay, is to present to you 22 what I feel and what I strongly believe the employees of our 23 department need. It's your duty to prepare the budget, and 24 I understand that. But I wasn't going to go back and 25 reprepare it, kind of like putting the stamp of approval on 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 212 1 doing something to the employees that I didn't believe we 2 should be doing. So, I agree. We're totally in agreement. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That's fine. You're free to 4 disagree with the policy, but the policy was in place and it 5 was in existence, and that's what it was at the time and is 6 as of this day, and for purposes of preparing this budget. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And, based upon that, it was 9 incumbent upon me to prepare a budget. The position 10 schedule I was furnished with that number of 1,167 had those 11 three officers on there; I backed them out at their then 12 current position, and I came up with 1,087,000. It may be 13 because you failed to furnish me the information I 14 requested, and if so, if you can't figure out where it came 15 from, don't make it my problem. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm not trying to make 17 it your problem, Judge, okay? This county has a County 18 Treasurer that keeps track and does all the paychecks, and I 19 advised you that if you wanted it figured that other way, I 20 was not going to intentionally, in any way, shape, or form, 21 screw my employees. And if you wanted to get those figures 22 from the County Treasurer, then you could get them from the 23 County Treasurer. We had a very calm, very decent 24 conversation, and I explained to you why I was presenting 25 this. And if I go on, I'll explain it a little bit more. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 213 1 But I think this County and this Court has worked with me 2 very well over the years, and -- and I've truly enjoyed 3 that, and I hope nothing that we're saying today -- I saw 4 a deal on the Church of Christ marquee out there this 5 morning when I went by there that says, "Public temper 6 tantrum is indecent exposure." And I agree with their 7 little marquee, okay? 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Sheriff, so we can 9 move along, let me attest to this. I think what you're 10 saying is that you prepared a budget that proposes to change 11 what you perceive is an inequitable policy. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. And we had tried 13 to -- before the budget preparation, to get this Court -- 14 'cause it was even on the agenda, and we tried to get that 15 policy changed, and they said let's look at it at budget 16 time. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You're both right. 19 The Judge prepared a budget the same way he did every other 20 department. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You prepared a 23 budget that changes a policy. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I understand that. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 214 1 Let's move along. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The Treasurer has her 3 hand up. 4 MS. NEMEC: I don't know if this will help 5 clarify or move this along any faster, but we did talk about 6 this, the policy change on the longevity, and I did send out 7 memos to the Sheriff and Road and Bridge, maybe another 8 department, revising a proposal on a revision -- on the 9 longevity, which I gave all of the Court a copy of. And we 10 changed up a few things that might have needed to be 11 changed, and Monday y'all will have from me a report with 12 the current longevity policy that is in place, the figures 13 for that for each department, plus I will also give you, for 14 each department, a breakdown of the new proposed revision of 15 the longevity policy that's in place. So you'll have, 16 Monday, figures to look at one policy versus what the other 17 one would be. That might help this out a little bit. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And in regards to that 19 policy, we had gone through "X" and "Y." Employee "Z" 20 starts in July of 2001. October 2001, he's a 19-1. October 21 2002, he should get a one-step to a 19-2, because he's been 22 here his year. He should -- he also got his intermediate 23 certificate during that time. The current policy will not 24 let him have two raises in one year, so he doesn't get one 25 of those; it's got to hold over till the next year. So, he 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 215 1 gets the one, but now he's waiting -- instead of one year to 2 get his educational, he's having to wait two years, all 3 right? So, in 2003, he goes to a 19-3 with that one 4 certificate, but in August of 2003, he got his second 5 certificate, so he's going to have to wait till 2004, but 6 because of the way the policy is, he cannot receive a raise 7 three years in a row, so he can't have that other 8 certificate in 2004; he's got to wait till 2005. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a hypothetical 10 or a real? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's a real 12 illustration. I took real employees that this is happening 13 to. Another one -- and I'll name these -- Albert Labon. He 14 started with my department August 16th of 2000. He has a 15 master's certificate. Being that he started at a 19-5, he 16 stays a 19-5 -- 2001/2002, he stays 19-5. He should be a 17 19-6 here with a longevity that -- even with the way I'm 18 understanding the Judge proposed it, he's not going to get 19 that, so he stays at a 19-5. All year, he's not getting a 20 raise, except for the cost-of-living the Court's given in 21 previous years. Tommy Hall -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That would not be true. 23 MS. SOVIL: Yes, it is. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, it is. Tommy Hall 25 starts 9/16 of '02 here. Tommy's going to get his one year 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 216 1 here, okay? But he won't get it 'cause of the longevity 2 now. But, see, he's already making what this guy should 3 have been ahead of him, and he's not, so they'll both be at 4 a 19-5 again in the proposed budget. Now, on just the 5 street level, the officer that doesn't have much of any 6 certificates, Jeff Bowman started January the 26th, 1998. 7 October of 2000, he went to the 19-1 with the Nash study. 8 For some reason, he didn't get his -- well, he wasn't going 9 to get his one-year; he should get it here. But he's also 10 got a certificate, so he's not going to get that, okay? And 11 he's going to end up being a 19-2, and since 1998, except 12 for a cost-of-living raise, this man's got one 2.5 percent 13 raise by this County. There's not any fairness or equity in 14 this policy, and that's what I was trying to explain. And 15 that's why I could not consciously, with a good conscience, 16 figure my employees' salaries on that policy. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, I agree with 18 you 100 percent. It's an unfair -- if you recall, there's 19 some of us sitting at the table -- well -- 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There's a lot of good 21 intentions. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There was some of us 23 sitting at this table that basically run Mr. Nash out of the 24 county. And -- but we certainly did not foresee anything 25 like this. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 217 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I agree. I don't think 2 it was foreseen. I don't think any of us did, okay? 3 MS. NEMEC: May I say something? I had 4 already figured all that in. That was given to every 5 department, a list of their employees with the current 6 policy figures, so all that has already been done. We have 7 those numbers. Of course, every payroll, they're updated 8 with leave and all that, but those numbers we've been 9 working with the whole time. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We have those numbers 11 based on policy changes? 12 MS. NEMEC: No, based on the policy that is 13 in place now. And I'm in the process, and Monday I'll be 14 done with it; I'll have numbers based on -- if the Court 15 chooses to change the policy on the discrepancies that the 16 Sheriff's -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's where I was 18 going. 19 MS. NEMEC: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 21 MS. NEMEC: I will have those. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Certainly, if the Court -- if 23 the Court changes the policy, that's not a problem. But for 24 budgeting purposes, what I had to work with, and what I 25 necessarily must have worked with was what the existing 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 218 1 policy was. I can't predict what -- 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- decision is going to be 4 made by the Court. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I put in that slide, and 6 I'll give it to you in a few minutes, the one Barbara's 7 talking about that she sent over, okay. Those were part of 8 the figures that were in that slide. And I'll show you 9 those, and they were sent to everybody Barbara had. Okay. 10 And it still will not, Judge, come to that 1 million 87 11 thousand. It was either the 1 million 116, or 147. That's 12 why I couldn't come up with where you came up with that. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I took the 1 million 167, I 14 backed out the three COPS officers. I know exactly -- I've 15 got some notes here that reflect exactly what I did. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Exactly how I got there. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I -- I just -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I know where I got this. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- want to straighten 21 everything out for employees. And then, whether it was 22 1,087,000 or my 1,167,000, this Court will get it worked out 23 for our employees' sake. Okay. One thing I'd like to get 24 into now is, there seems to be a very large misconception of 25 people -- with people, and our jail staff are paid $20,313 a 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 219 1 year. And there seems to be -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are we going to the 3 jail budget? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Huh? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are we going to the 6 jail budget? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, we're still in 8 salaries. That's why I said I didn't talk salaries, both in 9 Sheriff's Office or jail. People don't realize -- not 10 because they don't want to, but I just don't think they 11 realize what jail employees do and what is required of a 12 jail employee, so I'd like to take just this few minutes to 13 show some things. First off, all of our employees are 14 required to know this manual. This is the Sheriff's Office 15 training manual. This is our jail employees' FTO, field 16 training manual. This is what they have to know right after 17 they go to work. Now, I know, and I have been very well 18 aware they -- some of them can go to Jack-in-the-Box or a 19 lot of other businesses and make what they're making right 20 now with us, and never have to go and learn through books 21 like that. But, on a daily set of duties that our jail has 22 to do, these are written-out duties that jail staff have to 23 complete and do each day. 24 This is very important. It saves us, the 25 County, on some serious liability. And I don't mind saying 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 220 1 and I'm very proud to say that, at this time, this County 2 does not have a single lawsuit pending against our jail, and 3 they have not had a new lawsuit filed since I took office. 4 Because we changed our policy manual; we changed our 5 training programs. We have professionals working in that 6 jail, and professionals deserve more than $20,000 a year. 7 This is their duties that they're required to do, and I 8 won't read them. I hope you catch some highlights, but if I 9 just sit here and we start going through them all, reading 10 them, we'll be here until midnight, and I know -- I don't 11 know if y'all want to do that with me. But these are 12 written duties. They have them with them; they have to make 13 sure they all get checked off and they go through them all. 14 I know that both courts, district court -- 15 District Clerk's office, Jannett, they have a lot of 16 paperwork and all that they have to do, because they each 17 have their own courts, and a lot of it derives from the 18 jail. The jail gets paperwork from eight different courts; 19 four J.P.'s, two district courts, the county courts, and 20 municipal court. They have to deal with all of that, and it 21 has to be done exactly right and exactly the right time. 22 You hold an inmate one day too long, then you have got a 23 lawsuit for false imprisonment. You let him out too early 24 and he gets in a wreck or something, we got a lawsuit 'cause 25 we didn't hold him as long as we were supposed to. It just 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 221 1 goes on. 2 (Discussion off the record.) 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Those of you who saw the 4 one on cleaning, those of you that have been out to the jail 5 and toured the jail, I think you will admit with me, I 6 honestly feel we have one of the cleanest, if not the 7 cleanest jail in the state of Texas. Some of these are 8 duplicated because they are still done by another jailer in 9 another part of the jail. These are station duties; they 10 have to be done in each one. Welfare checks, 15 to 30 11 minutes, all inmates who are on suicide watch, which is 12 normally just about everybody we have in the jail. M.H.M.R. 13 came out there and did a study; 80-some-odd percent of our 14 inmates have dealings and have files with M.H.M.R. These 15 are the type of people we're dealing with. It's no longer 16 Barney Fife or whatever, Andy Griffin and what's-his-name 17 that comes in and locks himself in jail 'cause he's drunk, 18 and comes out the next day. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Getting personal now. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that 80 percent? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Of our inmates. We 22 don't have round-the-clock nurses. We have two nurses; they 23 work shifts, but you have to give medication around the 24 clock. May have to be given after bedtime or meal times and 25 everything else. Has to be followed. Recreation at least 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 222 1 three times a week for every inmate. It all has to be 2 documented. When you have inmates like the one that killed 3 the two -- or accused, since we haven't had a trial yet, of 4 killing the two at Comfort, he has to be out there by 5 himself, so he's separated out from the other 140 or 6 whatever we have in jail at that time. We have one 7 recreation yard. One thing I will say, Judge, you had 8 talked about the American -- or the Literacy Council and 9 some of your extra funding, some of the joint deals, that 10 they don't really do much. They do help us with GED courses 11 at -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Families and Literacy. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir. They do help 14 us. And drain maintenance may not seem important, but when 15 you're talking inmates in a cell, it's very important. We 16 spend a lot of money unclogging drains. Somebody tries -- 17 they try and put stuff down all the time. We try and keep 18 the drains open. Shakedowns are all the time on every shift 19 to try to keep the contraband down. Intake takes a very 20 long time in our jail. We may have to strip-search. You 21 have to go through all this. They have him rub his hands 22 through his hair, everything else in the world, checking 23 him, check every garment seam in the garments. Anything you 24 have going, it gets checked, anything like that. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Only job description 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 223 1 I've ever seen that looked anything like this was house 2 parent at the Hill Country Youth Ranch. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. Jail Standards, 4 Chapter 275, states that pay for corrections officers should 5 be equivalent of that of other appointed deputies of similar 6 grade, status, and/or tenure whose daily duties require 7 frequent, close, and risky contact with violators of the 8 law. That's in Jail Standards. Now, it's not a 9 requirement. It's not a law. But when we're paying our 10 jailers $20,000 and City of Kerrville's paying a patrol 11 officer -- what did I say, $30,000? We're starting our 12 deputies out at $26,000. I don't think we're anywhere near 13 that, because I've always had a philosophy, I got a lot more 14 respect in a lot of ways for a jailer than I do for a 15 deputy, for one main reason. A deputy can go out there and 16 arrest somebody -- City officers, I will say, are notorious 17 for this, but they'll get them all stirred up, get them 18 madder than a wet hen, they drive them to that jail, kick 19 them out the door, and the jailer's got to deal with them 24 20 hours a day, seven days a week from then on. 21 As you know, we just indicted one for assault 22 on our nurse. We're going to probably indict him again for 23 assault on me. We have got area Brotherhood gang members in 24 there that we are currently working on an organized crime 25 case -- on a serious organized crime case where -- one of 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 224 1 the duties you don't even see in any of those duties is 2 reviewing and scanning and monitoring all the outgoing phone 3 calls from inmates, and our jail staff do that. Secretaries 4 in the jail did that, and they caught some phone calls going 5 out where a hit was going to be made on another inmate when 6 they were taken to church. And we have it on tape, and it's 7 directly on tape; it says they had it all figured out how 8 they were going to do it. They're talking about the weapons 9 they were going to use that they're making and improvising 10 with, and if the jailer got in the way, take him too. We 11 don't have the jail we used to have. 12 The budget -- proposed budget does not say 13 one thing about the long-range plan that was accepted. I'm 14 not saying -- I'm not saying approved or guaranteed to 15 follow or anything, but it was accepted by this Court last 16 year. It said that's what we need for patrol, and it cuts 17 it down and says the total number of officers or staff we 18 should have in the Sheriff's Office. And a footnote -- and 19 y'all have a copy of that; I gave it to you in with your 20 long-range -- or in with the budget request, how those 21 figures were -- were arrived at, their recommendations, and 22 that was just 80 percent of it. For patrol was -- in 2003, 23 which was the 2002/2003 budget year, last year, was to give 24 two patrol officers, one civil officer. And that, again, is 25 for 2003 and '4, and then four patrol officers for 2004 and 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 225 1 '5. That's what we got last year. Now, this is Sheriff's 2 Office, not jail yet. 3 This is what staff they came up with that the 4 jail should have, fulfilling all those duties, and how much 5 staff we needed, the multiplier by time off that all people 6 need and everything else to run it 24 hours a day. This is 7 a different department than any other department in this 8 county, 'cause it's 24 hours a day. This is what they 9 recommended we have: Four jailers, one transport, one 10 booking, one clerk, one control room officer. Same thing 11 again. And then again the following -- the last year. Last 12 year, this Court did give us five additional jail positions, 13 and that was five out of the eight that it recommended. We 14 have tried -- as we talked about in the food bill and 15 everything else, we have cut it, and now we're going to 16 $180,000. It was, three years ago, $226,000, so I think 17 that's $46,000 we've cut off that, and that's 'cause 18 employees and them are trying everything they can do. We 19 don't just blow our budget. We work at it the best we can 20 and we try and keep it down. In doing so, the only way we 21 could find to do that, of course, y'all well know, 'cause I 22 come to you a lot with grants. "Let us apply for this, let 23 us apply for that." That's how we've upgraded a lot of our 24 operating and a lot of our equipment. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Is this a quiz? 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 226 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. $748,173.16 is 2 what we've received in grants since January of 2000. That 3 does not include things such as a computer that we weren't 4 given money to go buy. I have that locator computer that I 5 came to y'all with, which helps put out the Amber Alerts and 6 that. We didn't know what the actual dollar amount -- I 7 didn't even include those in here. This is cash amount. 8 That's what was gotten for our department before 2000, 9 January of 2000. I think our -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: What period of time does that 11 cover, Sheriff? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As far as I know, all 13 the way back, Judge. And I took office and said that's one 14 of the things we're going to do, and thank goodness, I got a 15 chief deputy that has a gift for gab on paper, and he's been 16 able to get us some darned good grants. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He said it, deputy. 18 We didn't say that. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: This bothers me, and I 20 know it probably bothers y'all. And I know you're going to 21 tell me that Commissioners Court duties are a whole lot more 22 than what the City Council's duties are. Correct, Buster? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I'm going to say a 24 lot more than that. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 227 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But that's -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is this? Is this 3 a salary? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's a City 5 Councilman's salary compared to a County Commissioner's 6 salary. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And what is this 8 supposed to mean? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: City Councilmen are 10 elected, do the same thing you do. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What does this have to 12 do with your budget, though? I'm not following. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It has to do with 14 overall, but we'll get to a slide that shows an overall 15 budget, okay? Y'all may argue and you may -- I don't know; 16 you very well may do a whole lot more work -- I'm not trying 17 to get this personal -- than a City Councilman does. You 18 know, that may justify it, because of the duties and 19 committees and all that you have to be on. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We have to stay 21 up -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I feel I do a whole lot 23 more work than the Chief of Police does, 'cause he doesn't 24 have a jail. But look at it on this side; it's just the 25 opposite. 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 228 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So what do you 2 recommend that we do to fix that? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I mean, Buster, if it's 4 me personally while I'm in office, I'm not concerned, okay? 5 I'm not going to ask you to fix that. The position and the 6 responsibility that position has, and the position the 7 Sheriff has, it's not fair to a Sheriff. Up until -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Go back to the other. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Ten years ago, the chief 10 deputy, as you remember -- and y'all fixed it that year, 11 Commissioner Williams -- chief deputy in the Sheriff's 12 Department was making more than the Sheriff. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Go back to the other 14 slide. I want to make one point for you. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With respect to that 17 particular chart, what you failed to take into account there 18 is that those five City Council people have a staff that 19 probably eats up $2 million worth of tax dollars every year 20 to do their job for them and make it easy for them to make 21 decisions. This Commissioners Court doesn't have a staff 22 that eats up $2 million worth of tax dollars. Now you can 23 go on to the next slide. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I won't argue that, 25 Commissioner, but I will say that this Commissioners Court 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 229 1 has what -- the main thing, years ago, you used to see your 2 commissioner out there working on the roads. Now we have a 3 Road and Bridge, we have an engineer, we have all those type 4 people. All right? City staff has hired -- that would 5 really put more responsibility on that City Councilman, 6 because they are -- they've got a City Manager, and those 7 staff are hired, all right? To me, the City -- the County 8 Commissioners, most of the elected -- or most of the 9 department heads in this county are elected officials. We 10 bear the responsibility. I do. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Next slide. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 2002/2003, Kerr County's 13 total budget was $16.3 million. We rounded off these 14 figures just to make it easier to understand. 2003/2004 15 requested budget, from all the department heads combined, 16 was $400,000 less than last year; it's $15.9 million. The 17 Judge's recommendation is 500 -- takes another $593,000 off 18 of that, bringing it to $15.3 million. Of that $593,000 19 additional cuts, $223,385 or 40 percent of it would come 20 from the Sheriff's Office and jail. Kerr County Jail 21 proposed budget, after you take out group insurance, would 22 be cut 4 percent. Kerr County Sheriff's Department proposed 23 budget, after you take out group insurance, would be cut 24 6 percent. Kerr County Commissioners Court budget -- 25 proposed budget, after you take out insurance, is cut 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 230 1 1 percent. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what you're 3 proposing? Or -- 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, these are just 5 points to ponder. And, Thea, I don't mean anything 6 personally by this next one, but the way I look at our 7 salary line item, Kerr County Sheriff's Office deputies 8 starting salary $26,100. No proposed increase. Kerr County 9 Commissioners Court secretary's current salary, $28,900 with 10 a $700 proposed increase. 11 MS. SOVIL: Rusty, I have a question. How 12 many years have I been here, and what is that proposed 13 increase for? Longevity. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm saying what's in the 15 budget. 16 MS. SOVIL: That's a longevity increase. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I told you I 18 didn't -- 19 MS. SOVIL: How many years have I been here? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I told you I didn't mean 21 anything personal. 22 MS. SOVIL: How many years have you been 23 here? 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm going to be honest; 25 I'm going to be very honest. I don't think $26,000, less 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 231 1 than we pay some of our secretaries, is what we should be 2 paying officers that are putting their lives on the line 3 every time they put on a uniform and come to work. And I do 4 thank you for at least listening to me and not running me 5 out of here. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Sheriff. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Sheriff. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That concludes the 9 presentations, and -- 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, I'd like 11 to -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: -- items that we had for 13 today. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'd like to make one 15 comment on the Sheriff's Department presentation -- two. 16 One, I am very sympathetic with your concerns about what we 17 pay people. The second comment is that I read for the first 18 time the study of the staffing levels at the Sheriff's 19 Department you provided to me. That's the first time I'd 20 seen it, and I found it to be of no use. It's long on 21 rhetoric and short on facts. When I got through reading it, 22 I couldn't tell if you were understaffed or overstaffed. 23 So, that -- that's not a very good argument. That's the 24 only two comments I have. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other -- any of you 8-15-03 Budget Workshop 232 1 gentlemen have comments to make before we shut it down here 2 today? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Save them till later, 4 Judge. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll stand adjourned, then, 6 for this session of the workshop. 7 (Budget workshop adjourned at 5:13 p.m.) 8 - - - - - - - - - - 9 10 STATE OF TEXAS | 11 COUNTY OF KERR | 12 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 13 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 14 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 15 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 16 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 19th day of September, 17 2003. 18 19 20 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 21 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 22 Certified Shorthand Reporter 23 24 25 8-15-03 Budget Workshop