1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, August 25, 2003 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X August 25, 2003 PAGE 2 1.1 Allow Costco Wholesale to set up employee reception & offer discount membership rate 10 3 1.2 Renewal of Interlocal Cooperation Contract for DPS Fugitive Apprehension Program 19 4 1.3 Approve Interlocal Contract with DPS 20 1.4 Amend NRCS Project No. 69-7442-3-549, authorize 5 County Judge to sign same 24 1.9 Discuss qualifications for Constables as per 6 Section 86.0021, Local Government Code 27 1.10 Discuss recommendation of Texas Comptroller 7 regarding budgetary matters in General Provisions 33 1.11 Proposed revised longevity and educational pay 8 increase policy 37 1.6 PUBLIC HEARING - election to approve Mt. Home 9 Emergency Service District with taxing authority 53 1.7 Set election for November 4, 2003, for creation 10 of Mountain Home Emergency Service District 58 1.8 Open proposals for Electrical, Plumbing and 11 HVAC as advertised 66,162 1.5 Press conference for 9-1-1 address change 68 12 1.12 Discuss moving Flood Control fund balance to Road and Bridge budget 70 13 1.13 Reestablish Justice Court Technology Fund which comes from $4 technology fee on defendants 14 convicted of misdemeanor offenses 71 1.14 Discuss proposed new OSSF Rules and Regulations as 15 recommended by joint committee, set public hearing 75,130 1.15 Discuss elimination of County Road Engineer 16 position, issue notice to him of such action, and set public hearing if necessary 86 17 1.16 Contract with Pressler, Thompson and Company for outside audit services 87 18 1.17 Discuss drainage easement requested by the City of Kerrville to prevent damage along Quinlan Creek 88 19 1.18 Approval of contract with Hunt Volunteer Fire Department, authorize the County Judge to sign 93 20 1.19 Adoption and approval of Records Archive Fee of $5, adopt such fee as part of FY 2003-04 budget 21 and subsequent years, set public hearing on same 98 1.20 Approve proposed FY 03/04 Public Officials Salary, 22 set public hearing on same 101 1.21 Approve proposed FY 03/04 Budget, set public 23 hearing on same 106 1.22 Approve proposed FY 03/04 Tax Rate, set public 24 hearing on same 106 1.23 Discussion with Cheryl Mapston concerning vacant 25 County Extension Position 107 --- Adjourned 164 3 1 On Monday, August 25, 2003, at 9:00 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I will call the meeting to 7 order of the special Commissioners Court meeting scheduled 8 for today, Monday, August the 25th, at 9 a.m. It appears to 9 be about a minute after 9:00. Commissioner Baldwin. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe you have the honors 12 this morning. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do. If you'll stand 14 and pray with we, please, and then join me in the pledge of 15 allegiance. 16 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. At this time, any 19 citizen who has anything that they want to bring to our 20 attention or say to us on a matter that is not on the agenda 21 is privileged to speak at this time. And we would ask, if 22 you have any matters that you wish to speak on that are 23 matters that are on the agenda, that you wait until those 24 agenda items are called. We would also ask, though it's not 25 required, that you fill out a participation form. Those 8-25-03 4 1 forms are at the back of the room. Like I say, it's not 2 required, but it helps us in planning and making sure that 3 we don't miss you when that agenda items comes up. But, at 4 this time, any citizen desiring to speak on matters not on 5 the agenda are privileged to come forward, give their name 6 to the reporter, and say what's on their mind. Ms. Fox? 7 MS. FOX: Yes. Good morning. Thank you for 8 hearing me. You know who I am. My name is Catherine Fox. 9 I'm here to share with you. I'm not here to chastise, nor 10 am I asking for your opinion. You may give it if you so 11 choose; I'm just simply here to share. Thankfully, God gave 12 us rain last night, two and a quarter inches where we live 13 in two hours and 10 minutes. The berm behind my parents' 14 home failed. Nature did test it, and Stablewood did not 15 pass the test. The water's being channeled directly onto my 16 parents' property, along with caliche. Stablewood has been 17 informed. I know what I have to do next. I know it 18 involves the State of Texas, myself, and Stablewood. 19 However, I would like you gentlemen to know -- I am reading 20 directly out of the Kerrville Mountain Sun, and as I was not 21 here at that meeting due to a doctor's appointment that I 22 had had for over a month last time, I welcome anyone on the 23 Court who was mentioned in this article to please correct me 24 if what I am stating is incorrect. 25 Precinct 1 Commissioner Buster Baldwin said 8-25-03 5 1 that Domingues was the engineer of record, and that his 2 signature on the project was sufficient for him. "You're 3 asking the County to inspect. That's not our job." Then 4 Precinct 3 Commissioner Jonathan Letz said that the issue 5 is -- quote, is not whether the engineer did a good job. 6 It's beyond the scope of our Court's rules and authority, 7 unquote, to challenge the expertise, adding that if the 8 State of Texas deems the engineer to be qualified for a 9 license, he did not think it was the Court's business to 10 question it. He then goes on to say -- meaning Commissioner 11 Letz, respectively -- for the thousands of dollars in fees 12 that it would cost, he said, it was not the intent of the 13 rules to redo the work of the engineer who signed off on it, 14 and that the Court could be liable if they did not sign. 15 I'm confused. And I mean this respectfully, not 16 sarcastically, gentlemen. Is it that you couldn't do 17 anything, Commissioner Letz? Or is it that you chose not to 18 because it would cost thousands of dollars? I'm confused. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: If you'll allow me to 20 interject, on this particular segment of the -- of the 21 agenda, for the visitors' input on subjects not on the 22 agenda, -- 23 MS. FOX: Yes, sir. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- we're not permitted under 25 the rules that we play by to get into a discourse or 8-25-03 6 1 discussion. 2 MS. FOX: Okay, fine. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Certainly, you're privileged 4 to tell us anything or to say what you desire, but since it 5 is not an agenda item, this Court is not legally permitted 6 to get into a discussion of those items. 7 MS. FOX: Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I hope you'll understand that. 9 MS. FOX: Yes, I do understand. Thank you. 10 It's my naïveté of the rules, because they're so complex, 11 and I am simply a lay person. However, nonetheless, I 12 wanted to express this to you for one reason, and one reason 13 only; not my displeasure at the Court, but that I believe 14 that the Court needs to understand that when we stated 15 before that the engineers were not qualified in hydrology 16 issues, we were not simply blowing smoke, and now Mother 17 Nature has proved our point. Thank you, sirs. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Is there any other 19 member of the public that has anything they wish to tell us 20 about or talk to us about that is not on the agenda? There 21 being none, we'll go on to the next agenda item, 22 Commissioners' Comments. Number 1, Commissioner Baldwin. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Thank you. 24 The only -- the only comment I had to make this morning is 25 the -- the Associated Press football polls are out. Tivy 8-25-03 7 1 Antlers are Number 9 in the entire state. Not bad. Not 2 bad. Good place to start. That's all. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, they're Number 5 6 on the KSAT's top 10, so you just advanced three places. 6 That's it. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, since we're talking 9 about football, I'll let everyone know that the first, I 10 guess, home football game, which is a JV and a freshman 11 game, will be this Thursday, the 28th. And this is a 12 comment to Ms. Fox. I'll be glad to visit with you. If 13 you, you know, are here during -- up to the break, or to the 14 break, I'll be glad to visit with you. You know, I think 15 the paper had my quotes accurate, but I'll be glad to 16 further explain. 17 MS. FOX: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I pass. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: You pass? The only -- only a 20 couple items that I have that I'd like to bring to your 21 attention. The -- the Clerk advised me this morning that 22 early voting on the constitutional amendments begins this 23 coming Thursday? 24 MS. PIEPER: That's correct. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: And it'll be going on for a 8-25-03 8 1 period of -- 2 MS. PIEPER: Two weeks. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- two weeks. I encourage any 4 of you that will not be able to vote on Election Day, or if 5 you just prefer to vote early to have it out of the way, and 6 another item you can line off on your schedule, to please -- 7 please take advantage of it. That early voting will be 8 taking place here in the courthouse? 9 MS. PIEPER: Yes, in the lower section. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Down in the lower level or 11 basement annex, I suppose it could be called. We've 12 utilized that before, and it seems to work out pretty good. 13 One other item. I was privileged, along with Commissioners 14 Baldwin and Williams, to attend a function over the weekend. 15 It was the 4-H awards dinner and -- and ceremonies. And I 16 was impressed with the -- with the entire program and the 17 wonderful types of programs that these 4-H individuals 18 participate in. I learned that we have a number of Kerr 19 County youth involved in those programs. There are a number 20 of clubs, some on the west end, some on the east end, and 21 several in between, and we're not just talking about raising 22 hogs or growing hay. We're talking about a whole lot of 23 different things; among them, leadership skills, 24 citizenship, things of that nature, that are involved in 25 those programs. And I want to take a minute or two this 8-25-03 9 1 morning to thank them for allowing all of us to be there and 2 to participate. They -- they permitted us to participate in 3 the program. As a matter of fact, there are two different 4 awards, one to one of the 4-H youth participants, and 5 another one to the -- to the leaders, that this Court 6 presents. We sponsor those two awards. The -- the youth 7 award went to a fine young man by the name of Sam McKee, who 8 I see great things on the horizon for, and the adult 9 leadership award went to a longtime resident of this county 10 who's been involved in youth activities and programs for -- 11 well, I don't know how many years. She might be offended if 12 I were to take a -- take a guess, because it would be a 13 goodly number of years. Ms. Hazelle Calcote. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: About 50. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: As I'm sure all of you know, 16 she's been a wonderful asset to this county and this 17 community, and particularly to the youth. But I wanted to 18 express my thanks for our being able to participate. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One thing, Judge, 20 that I noted out there -- I'm sure you and Commissioner 21 Baldwin did, too -- was the level of maturity and confidence 22 and self-esteem these young people have which belies, in 23 most instances, their age, and that's a credit to not only 24 their parents, but the program in which they've been 25 involved all these years. 8-25-03 10 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. And, as you 2 said before, Judge, I doubt it very seriously if we will see 3 any of those kids come through your juvenile court system. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: If any of them have been in my 5 juvenile court, I'm not aware of it. I doubt seriously 6 whether I'll see any of them. The law of averages says I 7 probably will see one or two along the way, but I'm not 8 aware of, in the eight months that I've been juvenile judge 9 of this county, seeing one individual that was involved in 10 the 4-H programs or the FFA or other programs that are 11 involved out there at that Youth Activity and Exhibit 12 Center. So, you know, you get what you pay for. We can 13 spend the money out there, or we can spend it putting them 14 in the Youth Detention Facility. Some of you that may not 15 realize it, every time we put one in the Youth Detention 16 Facility, it costs us $83 a day to do that. It's your 17 money. You figure out where you want to spend it. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's get on with the business 20 at hand. First item on the agenda, we have here a 21 representative from Costco Wholesale who desires to obtain 22 the Court's permission to set up a complimentary reception 23 table accessible to all of the employees of Kerr County for 24 a discount membership rate to that organization. Good 25 morning. 8-25-03 11 1 MS. SMITH: Good morning. I'm Nancy. I'm 2 with Costco, and that is exactly what I'm requesting, is 3 what you've stated there, that Costco would like to have a 4 complimentary reception held in the courthouse that would be 5 open to all of the County employees so that they could 6 receive a $10 gift card, which essentially would be taking 7 $10 off the membership, which is $45 a year for two cards. 8 And I have with me some examples of posters that we would be 9 able to send. We can put a packet together, and we have 10 posters that you could put in different offices. This is 11 something we did in Boerne for the court system there, for 12 the county. They had posters in several of the offices that 13 enabled the employees to know exactly the date that we were 14 coming so that they could take advantage of that 15 opportunity. And then we also have -- I have an example of 16 the application that would be used to explain a little bit 17 about Costco, and has the application side for the employees 18 to use. And on the date that we come, we would be here for 19 about an hour or two, and we would bring something from the 20 bakery or pizza or whatever your preference is, and we can 21 provide that during the time that we're here. And so, I was 22 requesting to find specifically a date that you would like 23 to have us. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are we talking about 25 during the business hours? 8-25-03 12 1 MS. SMITH: Yes. What seems to work best is 2 if we do it on a date that is near a payday for the 3 employees, because that works best for them. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Lunch hour? Lunch 5 hour? Or -- 6 MS. SMITH: When it would be most accessible 7 for the employees, whatever time frame would allow them to 8 be able to come by the table and say hi and drop off their 9 application and -- and pick up their gift card and some of 10 their goodies that we bring. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have to forgive 12 me, I don't know what Costco is. Do you sell something? Is 13 it a membership that they can go grocery shopping, get 14 discounts? Or -- 15 MS. SMITH: We're a membership wholesale 16 club. I'm sorry, I didn't -- I just assume everybody knows 17 who we are now. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I don't. 19 MS. SMITH: We are actually the originator of 20 the wholesale club. We started in 1976, and actually Sam 21 Walton came out to the west coast and saw Costco and 22 thought, "Hey, this is a great idea," and he started Sam's 23 six years later on that concept. Are you familiar with 24 Sam's? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, ma'am. 8-25-03 13 1 MS. SMITH: Okay. We're like that. Little 2 more upscale, carry more name brands, and normally we offer 3 the lowest price on quality items. And the membership is 4 $45 a year for two cards, but what we're offering is to 5 offer the $10 gift card that essentially is taking $10 off 6 the membership to all the employees here. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is it a mail-order -- 8 I mean -- 9 MS. SMITH: Well, you can actually go online, 10 you can purchase online, but we have a warehouse -- we have 11 two warehouses in San Antonio. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 13 MS. SMITH: And the closest to Kerrville is 14 on I-10 and U.T.S.A. And, actually, we have a lot of people 15 coming down to the warehouse from Kerrville, from this area. 16 They love Costco. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. I'm sorry, I 18 didn't know. 19 MS. SMITH: That's okay. We have over 4,000 20 different items. We have a bakery. We have a pharmacy. We 21 have an optical department. We have an optometrist on the 22 premises. We have a tire center. We have -- you can 23 purchase tires, even tires we don't carry, and a lot of 24 people are able to purchase something in one -- in one 25 purchase -- like, for example, a set of tires. As somebody 8-25-03 14 1 I was talking to before this meeting began said, that more 2 than pays for the membership in one -- one event. Gas 3 prices, you're probably all aware of gas prices have been on 4 the rise the past week. Our regular gasoline is $1.49 a 5 gallon, which is lower -- about 10 cents lower than 6 everyone. I could keep going, so you better shut me up. 7 'Cause -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Say that again about 9 the gas prices. 10 MS. SMITH: We tend to be 6 cents to 10 cents 11 less than anybody else per gallon in the area. We're $1.49 12 today, and everybody's going up to about $1.56 or more right 13 now. You want some behind-the-scenes information on 14 gasoline? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: What's the Court's pleasure? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the only thing 19 I'd have to say is I have no problem with doing this, but we 20 have to be open to anyone else who wants to do it once we do 21 it one time. And I don't recall us doing something like 22 this before, but I don't know that it's a problem doing it. 23 You know, we certainly should try it out, but if it becomes 24 an issue, I think we have to do it -- you know, we may have 25 to discontinue at some point. 8-25-03 15 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or we'd have to -- if 2 Sam's or some other wholesale club wanted to do it, we'd 3 probably let them do it. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My thought would be 6 if they wanted to set up, bring pizzas and so forth, set up 7 for lunch underneath the magnolia tree out there, which is 8 delightful, let people come get their lunch. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was thinking more in 10 the line of Cowboy Steakhouse, but -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That'll work. 12 MS. SMITH: They are members of Costco, too. 13 They're probably purchasing their steaks from us. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See? There it is. 15 What a deal. What a plan. I like it. 16 MS. SMITH: Yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have any 18 problem with it. September the 15th is a Monday. That is a 19 payday. I'm -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioners Court day, 21 too, isn't it? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. It would be. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That means we get 8-25-03 16 1 some free pizza too. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do it on the 15th? 3 That's fine. Doesn't make any difference to me. 4 MS. SMITH: How many pizzas do you need me to 5 bring? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: One, two, three, four, 7 five. (Laughter.) 8 MS. NEMEC: Judge? Judge, may I make a 9 suggestion? If the Court would like, I could put a notice 10 in the September 15th paycheck that they'll be here 11 September 16th, and with the time and the place. And we 12 currently do have applications in my office for Sam's. 13 There are some employees that are members of Sam's. This 14 happened quite some time ago, and so they haven't come in to 15 promote it any more, so, you know, I don't promote it. If 16 they want to come in and promote it, that's fine. And we 17 carry the applications, so I'll be glad to keep some 18 applications in my office also. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: But if I understand you 20 correctly, Ms. Nemec, there was an occasion where Sam's came 21 and did a similar kind of -- 22 MS. NEMEC: Yes, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: -- presentation that this lady 24 is speaking of? 25 MS. NEMEC: Yes, sir, and there are some 8-25-03 17 1 employees that are members. And then there's some employees 2 that find out about it and will come in and ask for an 3 application, and we go ahead and get that to them, and I 4 would be glad to do the same for Costco. 5 MS. SMITH: Thank you. We have done that on 6 several occasions, too, where they'll just do fliers or 7 inserts with the employee payroll checks to let them know 8 too, in addition to the posters. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And what about the 10 lower level where we do that early voting? That's where we 11 have all of our luncheons and parties. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Be the best location. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, just in case 14 there's bad weather. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And that will be after the 16 voting has concluded? 17 MS. PIEPER: That's right. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: If we do it either the 15th, 19 Monday, or the 16th, Tuesday. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would imagine the 21 16th would be better. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I suspect it probably would 24 be. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 12 o'clock? 8-25-03 18 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 12 o'clock, September 2 the 16th, Tuesday, downstairs. There is no free meal. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe 11:30 or -- 11:30 4 to 1:30, something like that. 5 MS. SMITH: Okay. And if it requires us to 6 stay longer, that's fine, we'll stay longer. Whatever works 7 best for you. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, would you like 9 to have a court order? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I think we've -- if we get a 11 matter -- if we're going to get a motion to that effect. 12 Have you made such a motion, by your action? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, I have. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Is that a second? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Any further 17 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 18 your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. That will 23 solve it, shouldn't it, Commissioner? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Thank you very much. 8-25-03 19 1 We appreciate you being here. 2 MS. SMITH: Thank you very much. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item will be consider and 4 discuss renewal of an Interlocal Cooperation Contract 5 between Kerr County and Department of Public Safety for the 6 purpose of administering Fugitive Apprehension Program. Our 7 Sheriff. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's exactly what you 9 said; it's just a renewal of that program. We've had it for 10 a number of years. It's where, on parole violators of 11 certain offenses and that, the County gets reimbursed for 12 those that we house. It's $200 for certain ones. Ones on 13 the higher -- like Texas Top 10 or the high sexual assault 14 fugitives and that, it's $400. It has brought the County in 15 about $1,500 in the last couple of years, and it's just a 16 small program, but we have to have that contract to be able 17 to do it. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: If you run across these guys, 19 you're going to arrest them anyway, aren't you? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Going to arrest them 21 anyhow. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Might as well get a little 23 dough for it. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's it. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move to approve. 8-25-03 20 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second -- third. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fourth. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 5 seconded that the County approve the interlocal -- renewal 6 of the Interlocal Cooperation Contract between Kerr County 7 and Texas Department of Public Safety for the purpose of 8 administering the Fugitive Apprehension Program. I assume 9 that includes authorizing the County Judge to sign same. Is 10 there any further question or discussion? All in favor of 11 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Thank you 16 Sheriff. Next item is another item placed at the request of 17 the Sheriff. Consider and discuss the approval of an 18 interlocal contract between Kerr County and Texas Department 19 of Public Safety. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And this one is 21 apparently a new one. I couldn't see where we had ever 22 signed anything before, but I guess it's Department of 23 Public Safety's way of charging us for certain items now. 24 What this amounts to, there's a little bit -- and the main 25 one that we use are the little plastic breathing tubes that 8-25-03 21 1 go in the intoxilizer machine that gets changed out. It's a 2 mouthpiece that any suspected DWI person breathes into. 3 They've always been furnished, okay? We've never had to pay 4 for them, that I know of. But now, evidently, D.P.S. is 5 going to start charging us for them, so now they have -- you 6 have to have a contract or an agreement signed to pay for 7 them. And some of their other forms, like the accident 8 reporting forms and things like that, there's a lot of that 9 in here. That's now going to start costing us. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What kind of dollars 11 are we talking about, Sheriff? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's not that much. 13 Like, the -- the mouthpieces, I think there's -- it's $16.50 14 a carton, and it says in here where the carton is, it's 100 15 of them in it, so that's going to cost us about a -- about 16 $16.50 for 100 mouthpieces. But I would assume each 17 agency -- and I don't know how it's going to work. We've 18 always just gotten these things from D.P.S., including 19 accident report forms. I don't know if that is still 20 continued. Nothing was really said anything about this; 21 just something D.P.S. has slipped in. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Is this an extensive list of 23 items? Because the -- the information I've been furnished 24 does not have the attached document which has the revised 25 price sheet on it. 8-25-03 22 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Here is my copy of some 2 of the different items that it does take care of, the costs 3 of those items. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I assume you have gone over 5 that -- that schedule of items and reviewed it and found the 6 prices that they've designated to be reasonable under the 7 circumstances? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Oh, yeah, they're less 9 than what we could buy those items for and do buy these 10 items for anywhere else. And there's some things we have to 11 use. The blood tubes, if you're going to send in blood 12 specimens, or the syringe tubes to send in used needles and 13 syringes and drugs, D.P.S. has their requirements -- the lab 14 does, on exactly what -- how it has to be packaged, which is 15 those items. So, you're not going to have a choice but to 16 purchase those items. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Move to approve and 18 authorize County Judge to sign same. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 21 seconded that the Court approve the interlocal contract 22 between Kerr County and Texas Department of Public Safety 23 concerning the mentioned items, and authorize County Judge 24 to sign the same. Any further questions or discussion? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just a comment. And I 8-25-03 23 1 will vote for this; however, any -- and I look back at our 2 D.P.S. funding in our budget, and I think we should reduce 3 any funding we give them by this estimate -- by an estimated 4 amount. I think it's a little bit absurd for us to be 5 funding D.P.S. and then they start charging us for things 6 that we never have paid for before. Unfortunately, I think 7 we only have one item, which is salary, left in that D.P.S. 8 budget, which we really can't take off. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: There's an Operating Supplies 10 item in that budget, and I, in fact, reduced that. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: By this amount? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I wasn't looking at this, 13 so I don't -- but I reduced it considerably based upon 14 historical use. So, their budget for those items -- I 15 believe it's Operating Supplies -- was reduced. There's a 16 copy of the budget there. You're free to -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I'll try to 18 remember. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 20 discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 21 signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 8-25-03 24 1 is consider amendment to NRCS Project Number 69-7442-3-549, 2 and approval of the County Judge to sign the same. 3 Mr. Odom. Thank you. 4 MR. ODOM: Thank you, Judge. I would ask 5 that -- this amendment is to ask the Court for authorization 6 for the County Judge to sign this. Previously -- this 7 completes the NRCS projects, which we have completed a while 8 back. They sent us Amendment 550, which was a smaller 9 payment, and this is for over $81,000, I believe -- 10 $81,345.16. So, what we need to do is have the County Judge 11 sign it, then we send it back in and we reimburse them, then 12 we will give it to the Auditor to place back into reserves, 13 I would assume. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 17 seconded that the Court approve the amendment for NRCS 18 Project Number 69-7442-3-549, and authorize County Judge to 19 sign the same. Mr. Odom, is this our $110,000 in, quote, 20 participating projects, I believe is the term that was 21 utilized in connection with -- 22 MR. ODOM: That is correct. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the prior agreement? 24 MR. ODOM: Prior agreement, that was our 25 75 percent reimbursement back. 8-25-03 25 1 JUDGE TINLEY: But these are the two projects 2 that make up that $110,000 -- 3 MR. ODOM: That's right. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that we're obligated to 5 perform anyway under prior agreement? 6 MR. ODOM: That's correct. And what they -- 7 they had forgot to send us this 549. They sent us the 550. 8 We called back, said, "Where's the remaining amount of 9 $81,000?" They said, "We forgot to send it to you." So 10 that's -- we're trying to complete it. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any further questions 12 or discussion on the motion? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, just -- just a 14 question. This is the second amendment under this contract? 15 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. What we had -- this is 16 the second amendment. The first one would include the 17 gabions up there at the swing area, and we had such a delay 18 from trying to get this together that we went with concrete. 19 It was amended, and was a little bit less money, but that 20 was the amendment on the thing. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my reason for 22 asking, this says Amendment Number 1 on it, on the 23 attachment. And I think maybe, just so we can in the future 24 figure out what we did, rather than just refer to an 25 amendment, maybe even refer to the amount in the motion. 8-25-03 26 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because, I mean, just -- 3 'cause it seems odd it's the second amendment and it's 4 titled Amendment Number 1. 5 MR. ODOM: We had an original. Then he 6 modified it and sent this back to us. We said, "That's 7 fine." 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, this one is 9 $81,345.16? 10 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. And this will complete 11 what they owe us. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move that we 13 approve the amendment which provides reimbursement to Kerr 14 County in the amount of $81,345.16. 15 MR. ODOM: Thank you. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And authorize the 17 County Judge to sign the same. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, is that in lieu of the 19 original motion? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir, it is. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, who made the original 22 motion? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I did. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Did you? Okay. All right. 25 And who made the second? 8-25-03 27 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I did. 2 MS. PIEPER: Commissioner Letz. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. That is -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's satisfactory to 5 me. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Very good. All right. We've 7 got a substituted motion on the table. Is there any further 8 question or discussion? All in favor of the substituted 9 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 10 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much. 14 MR. ODOM: Thank you, Judge. Thank the 15 Court. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate it. The next 17 item on the agenda, we'll go to 1.9, I think would be 18 appropriate, in view of the hours that we're dealing under 19 here. Consider and discuss qualification for constables as 20 per Section 86.0021 of the Local Government Code. 21 Commissioner Baldwin. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Thank you. 23 I wanted to -- what I'm doing here is simply a reminder to 24 the constables that -- that come under this program that 25 they -- if they swore in January 1 of this year, there is 8-25-03 28 1 just a couple of weeks left before they are required to 2 comply with the law. And I want to read the first sentence 3 out of Section (b) from this law. It says, "On or before 4 the 270th day after the date a constable takes office, the 5 constable shall provide to the Commissioners Court of the 6 county in which the constable serves evidence that the 7 constable has been issued a permanent peace officer license 8 under Chapter 1701, Occupations Code." Again, I'm not a 9 lawyer, but I know one. And that says to me that on or 10 before the 270th day from the day that they swore in, that 11 they are to come to this Commissioners Court and show 12 evidence of a permanent peace officer's license. And, 13 again, I think that that is September the -- 14 something-something. Pretty soon. And that needs to 15 happen. So, that's all. Just -- and all I'm doing is 16 saying -- reminding you guys that haven't done this to, you 17 know, get it done. Come on in. That's all. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. Constable 19 Precinct 2 gave me a printout from TCLEDDS, Texas Commission 20 on Law Enforcement Data Distribution, in which it lists all 21 of his various courses and hours and what he has been 22 awarded. Is that sufficient documentation, Commissioner? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It says a permanent 24 peace officer's license. Now, we can ask our attorney, 25 which is a holder of one of these, if -- if some kind of 8-25-03 29 1 school transcript is the same thing as a license or not. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Evidence that the 3 constable has been issued a permanent peace officer. So, 4 if -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It may be. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If, in this case, 7 I've got in front of me this printout from Texas Commission 8 on Law Enforcement which indicates he's been awarded a peace 9 officer license, among other things, is that sufficient, do 10 you think? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably so. My first 12 question would be, why don't you just show the license? You 13 know, but -- but whatever. 14 MR. FEARY: There is a license, but if that 15 transcript has listed on it that he has been issued a 16 permanent peace officer license, then that would -- would be 17 evidence. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You take a look and 20 you tell me. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, personally -- 22 MR. FEARY: Thank you. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Personally, I just 24 think it would be wise and -- and good order for them to 25 come in, either present this thing or their little license 8-25-03 30 1 or whatever, and the Court accept them -- officially accept 2 them, just for future records. And, you know, that's all. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are we going to set a 4 date for that to happen, or is today the day? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, no, today's not 6 the date. I'm not sure when the 270 days is up. When is 7 the 270 days up? 8 MR. PICKENS: Would be September 28th. 9 That's what I was told by TCLEOSE Friday -- Thursday. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: September 28th. 11 Sometime after that, y'all need to get on the agenda and 12 present them. 13 MR. PICKENS: If it please the Court, I have 14 my documentation for my Commissioner to present it. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's do it in the 16 Commissioners Court agenda item so we can accept -- 17 officially accept them, please. Thank you. I know you have 18 yours. 19 MR. PICKENS: I'm in total compliance. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. Oh, I don't 21 doubt anybody's out of compliance. I just think it would be 22 good for this Court to officially accept them, like the law 23 says here, just to make everything clean, up-to-date. 24 That's all I'm doing. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think it's a 8-25-03 31 1 matter of cleaning up. I think it says we have to. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, it does to me, 3 too. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It says "shall." We 5 shall do this. Therefore, we shall do it. I don't think we 6 have a whole lot of choice. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, there's some 8 debate over that, but that's exactly the way I read it, and 9 that's what this chair's going to do, I can tell you that. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: So, it's your -- it's your 11 preference that we should have a separate agenda item, 12 either one of the next two meetings prior to the -- whatever 13 that 270th day is, a specific agenda item to -- to receive 14 and accept the evidence under this particular provision? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I would 16 think maybe it would be after that 270th day, though, 17 because it could be on the 270th day that they received it. 18 And, I think it's up to them to get -- do the agenda item. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, the statutory 20 provision that you're referring to says, "On or before the 21 270th day, the constable shall provide to the Commissioners 22 Court..." 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, if they're all in a 25 position to do it by a given -- by, you know, the first 8-25-03 32 1 meeting in September, for example, it would seem appropriate 2 if they were to submit that agenda item, we'll handle it 3 then. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fine with me. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further on this? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A comment, 'cause we 8 have, I guess, two constables in the courtroom right now. 9 Will y'all take it among yourselves to notify the other two 10 constables? 11 MR. PICKENS: Yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would appreciate it. 13 Just so, I mean, we do it one time. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know. I 15 don't want to belabor this, but isn't the 270th day 16 different for each constable? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: From the day they took 18 office. I would -- only two them took office January 1. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: January 1 of this 20 year? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought they all did. 23 MR. PICKENS: Only one; that was me. That 24 was for the special election that was held back in November. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's correct. 8-25-03 33 1 MR. PICKENS: All four run at the same time 2 as the Sheriff runs. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All four run at the 4 same time the Sheriff does? 5 MR. PICKENS: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All four runs the same 7 time -- I think I've said that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Twice. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So you don't run in 10 cycles? 11 MR. PICKENS: It's the J.P.'s that run on 12 different terms. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And everyone else. 14 And everyone else. You're the only ones that don't? I 15 didn't know that. 16 MR. PICKENS: Same time as the Sheriff. As 17 the presidential election, as well. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bobby, will you be 19 sure to take care of this, please? 20 MR. PICKENS: Yes, sir, I will. I will set 21 it for September the 8th. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thanks. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Next item, consider and 24 discuss recommendation of the Honorable Carole Keeton 25 Strayhorn, Texas Comptroller, regarding budgetary matters in 8-25-03 34 1 connection with our general provisions, as we include them 2 in our annual budget. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. Thank you, 4 Judge. We have walked down this road before, and we have 5 adopted a statement for our -- our budget in the general 6 provisions, and I ran across this the other day, and it's -- 7 I think it's nothing more than a recommendation from Carole 8 Keeton Strayhorn, the Comptroller of Public Accounts, of how 9 to -- the proper way to do budgets. And this particular one 10 is dealing with line item transfers, and basically what it 11 says that you need to do is, when you're -- when you're 12 doing budget amendments, like we have some in here this 13 morning, that it -- that the person that wants to transfer 14 the money should come to the Commissioners Court prior to an 15 expenditure is made. We -- several years ago, we did our 16 own with very, very similar language that has been in our 17 budget for some time, and we simply don't -- we don't live 18 by that. And, again, it's recommended by the Comptroller, 19 and it's been in our budget for a number of years -- our 20 general provisions in the budget for a number of years now. 21 I don't -- I'm not looking for any kind of a court order 22 today to adopt anything. To me, it's already there. But I 23 really think that we need to enforce it. I think it's good 24 business. It would be just good business for -- for this to 25 happen. 8-25-03 35 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I think, as part of our 2 budget, we actually adopt as an overall part of the budget 3 the general provisions, or a set of general provisions as a 4 part of the budget, do we not, Commissioner? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, that is 6 true. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: And whether we continue with 8 the general provisions that we've utilized in the past, or 9 modify those in some way, shape, form, or fashion, or 10 whether we adopt this particular language, that's a matter 11 of -- of figuring that out during the course of the budget 12 process. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: In connection with the 15 adoption of the final budget. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is correct. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, if I might just 19 add to that, I mean, I totally agree with doing that. We 20 should do what our general provisions say. But I think it 21 would be probably a good idea, during one of our workshops 22 scheduled prior to formal budget adoption, just to make sure 23 that -- you know, to -- let's go over these general 24 provisions. Let's go over them one time, make sure that 25 they are accurate and that we are going to put a little bit 8-25-03 36 1 more emphasis on them, spend a little bit of time going over 2 all the general provisions. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's not a 5 bad idea, because as I read the -- I knew the Commissioner 6 was thinking about this, 'cause he mentioned to it me once, 7 but this seems to deal with by purchase order. Expenditure 8 of funds by purchase order. And, so, if there are other 9 ways that funds are expended, like reimbursement of 10 expenses, for example, are we talking -- 'cause is that the 11 same thing? I think we need to hear from our Auditor and 12 get his point of view and so forth, 'cause this does 13 specifically mention expenditure of funds by purchase order 14 from a budget line. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It does. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You go out and buy a 17 printer and got the bill in your hand, but you hadn't -- 18 hadn't asked for permission to buy the printer beforehand, 19 just by way of example. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe we can get the 21 Honorable Carole Keeton Strayhorn down here to present -- 22 discuss it with us, or one of her assistants. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know if we're 24 ready for her or not. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It would be a lively 8-25-03 37 1 presentation. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, it would. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, it does -- it 4 does specifically say purchase order in there. But the one 5 that we have adopted with our budget does not. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is not it? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, this is the -- her 8 recommendation. We have one in our budget that we have 9 adopted that is -- to me, is official, and it doesn't -- it 10 doesn't say anything about purchase order. It simply says 11 that if you're going to purchase something that needs to -- 12 needs a transfer of funds from one line to the other, you 13 get -- you have to get permission. And I -- I think what 14 that is, is just so everybody can really keep an eye on this 15 budget, instead of going outside the lines all the time. 16 All the time. Like today. That's all. I don't -- not 17 requiring any action. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. If there's nothing 19 further on that item, we'll move on to the next one, 20 consider and discuss proposed revised longevity and 21 educational pay increase policy. Ms. Nemec? Good morning. 22 MS. NEMEC: Good morning, Judge, 23 Commissioners. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I hope I didn't send an 25 erroneous message to you -- 8-25-03 38 1 MS. NEMEC: No. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: -- via one of your employees. 3 MS. NEMEC: It took -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: She said, "I understand she 5 was going to talk about budgetary matters." I said, "Well, 6 that's not on the agenda this morning. The budget workshops 7 are tomorrow and Wednesday." But -- 8 MS. NEMEC: Right. I thought I had a 9 deadline today, so it took a lot of stress off of me. There 10 is a revised longevity, if you don't mind passing them, from 11 the ones that were handed in with that agenda item. I had 12 to add something to it. If the Court pleases, I'll just go 13 number by number to let you know what changed on the policy. 14 All Number 2 does -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Barbara, do you have 16 another copy? 17 MS. NEMEC: The change on Number 2, again, 18 that is for the step increases. And what it does is, it 19 just changes the -- whatever is in bold is the change that's 20 being proposed. And it just changes the effective date to 21 become effective on the payroll following the anniversary 22 date, rather than on the -- to become effective on that 23 following budget year. So, that's what that does. The same 24 with Number 3. The step increases will become effective the 25 payroll following your anniversary date. Number 5, on the 8-25-03 39 1 previous policy, we did not have dispatchers in that policy, 2 and they did get educational certificates, and so that's to 3 add the dispatchers into that. And Number 6 just talks 4 about new dispatchers that are hired and how they will be 5 hired if they have a certificate already. Number 7 and 6 Number 8, again, Road and Bridge also receives educational 7 certificates, and on the previous policy, they were not 8 included in there. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Barbara, besides 10 these changes, I -- I think it was also the intent of the 11 Court to eliminate the rule preventing increases in three 12 successive years. 13 MS. NEMEC: Yes, I just took that completely 14 out of the policy. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Couple of questions, if I 16 might. When we're going from advanced to master, it appears 17 that you've provided for a two-step increase? 18 MS. NEMEC: That's the way the previous 19 policy read. I'm not sure who wrote the policy on that, but 20 that is the way it's been. That's what's in place now. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: My understanding was that the 22 policy was intended to be as you attain each successive 23 level, there will be a one-step increase. 24 MS. NEMEC: Except for the -- for the last -- 25 for the master's. Except for the last certificate that they 8-25-03 40 1 can obtain; that gave them a two-step increase. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 MS. NEMEC: And that hasn't changed. That's 4 the same language as the previous policy. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, it's possible 6 that may have been a second step increase, rather than two 7 new steps. That's something that the Court can decide as a 8 matter of policy. The other step -- the other question that 9 I have is on these educational increases. It was -- it's my 10 recollection that what we talked about is that all increases 11 would become effective on the anniversary date for 12 longevity, but for educational increases, because of the 13 impossibility of being able to budget for it and predict 14 when these would occur, that those steps would commence 15 effective upon the -- the beginning of the next ensuing 16 fiscal year. That -- that was my understanding of what was 17 discussed, because we're unable to budget when somebody's 18 going to get an educational increase. 19 MS. NEMEC: That is true, you wouldn't be 20 able to budget. Therefore, you might be having to do budget 21 amendments with this policy. That's strictly up to the 22 Court, and I can change it. And the other departments that 23 are affected by this might want to say something on that; I 24 don't know. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm just speaking of my 8-25-03 41 1 recollection of what was discussed earlier when we were 2 talking about it in the budget workshop, a change for -- for 3 this particular policy. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: My intent on that 5 was that we would -- the educational increases would be 6 effective in the same manner as the longevity increases. 7 Budgeting is a complication, but I believe the -- the 8 reinforcement and motivational aspect of the -- granting the 9 increases shortly after the certificate is obtained is -- 10 outweighs the budgeting difficulty. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just following up on 12 that, it seems logical that the department head or elected 13 official would know who and how many people he has in 14 educational classes who are likely to complete them within a 15 particular budget year, I would think. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree with you. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff's nodding his 18 head. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That is correct. At 20 least in law enforcement. Now, Road and Bridge, I don't 21 know, but in law enforcement, it takes so many years, so 22 many hours of training, and you can pretty well predict that 23 in a coming year, who's going to be able to get that. So 24 you can -- you know, we can, you know, figure that into the 25 budget, and that's what we -- we even did in this year's 8-25-03 42 1 proposed. The other thing, the -- on the Judge's previous 2 comments on the master's, it was drawn up originally to two 3 steps because to get your master's and peace officer -- in 4 fact, I got mine two years ago; took me 21 years to get it, 5 okay? And unless you have a master's degree from college or 6 a bachelor's degree from college in something, it's going to 7 take you 20 years to get your master's, and that was drawn 8 up in the original deal that it would go two steps when you 9 got your master's, 'cause it's so long. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: So, when you look at the 11 progression, the basic to intermediate and the amount of 12 effort and training and hours, and then intermediate to 13 advanced in that same amount, the difference between 14 advanced and master's -- 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Is humungous. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: -- is a wide gap? 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I'm understanding what 19 you're saying. There's a rational basis for the two steps 20 as opposed to the one. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question I have, is there 24 a way to combine 3 and -- 3 and 4, and also 5 and 6? I 25 don't see why we need to specify it different for a new 8-25-03 43 1 dispatcher versus a current dispatcher. 2 MS. NEMEC: Well, there are some times when 3 new employees are hired; if they don't have a certificate, 4 then they're just -- then they're just hired at entry level. 5 But this gives us the authority that if they are -- that if 6 they do have a certificate, that we can move them up to 7 another step. Otherwise, we wouldn't have that authority. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's a good bit of 9 redundancy in this. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it's -- to me, 11 the simpler we keep it, the better. And it just seems -- 12 and I guess, going back -- 13 MS. NEMEC: And -- excuse me. On 5, 14 dispatchers do not get a master's; are not eligible to 15 receive a master certificate, so that's why they were put 16 separate. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can see that, just -- 18 why 5 and 6 are both needed. And my other question, 19 dispatchers, they don't have to have a certificate? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They get one if they 21 stay with it and stay with it enough years. And they've 22 been getting the increases. That just wasn't actually 23 worded that way in the old deal, but they're part of law 24 enforcement and were getting it. But what Barbara's talking 25 about, the two paragraphs, the difference is, if -- and in 8-25-03 44 1 Paragraph 5, it just says when they get them, they can get a 2 bump up, okay? When they get them. In Paragraph 6, what 3 you're talking about, I may hire somebody that's already got 4 an advanced, so instead of that person having to start as a 5 19-1, or 14-1, whatever it is, you figure in the advanced, 6 and they actually start at a 14-2 or -3. It gives Barbara 7 that -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It could just as 9 easily be the last sentence of Number 5, as opposed to a 10 whole brand-new paragraph. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It could. It's just 12 spelling it out a lot better than what it was in the old 13 policy that caused so much confusion. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It just -- you know, I 15 mean, I understand it. I guess that's the main thing, is 16 that it's understandable. And the other thing I have on 17 Road and Bridge, the -- it says, you know, Road and Bridge 18 personnel are required to hold a special license. It seems 19 it would benefit everyone if we could -- if we knew what 20 those licenses -- I mean, if we kind of listed -- we get 21 with Leonard; maybe Leonard has a list of types of licenses. 22 Because it seems -- I'm not sure what we're talking about. 23 MS. NEMEC: It might specify in the job 24 description if -- if those positions require a special 25 license. I think what this sentence does here, it says if 8-25-03 45 1 it's already in the job description that in order to -- to 2 be eligible to -- for that job, they have to have this 3 certain license, well, therefore, the salary is already 4 figured into that position. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6 MS. NEMEC: Is that correct? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But under 7, I guess I'm 8 wondering, you know, what we're talking about. 9 MR. ODOM: Special license? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 11 MR. ODOM: Okay. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Are any of your personnel -- 13 for example, I know there's some that are required to have a 14 CDL. 15 MR. ODOM: CDL, Class A, is a requirement now 16 to drive anything over 26,000. The other thing is, to do 17 any roadside herbiciding, anything like that, requires a 18 permit, which takes continual 5 -- 5 CEU's a year just to 19 maintain it. That comes back up; we don't have a choice. 20 Either that, or we can't do any herbicide. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 22 MR. ODOM: So we have that. To me, that's 23 Number 7 -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 25 MR. ODOM: -- specifies that. And there's 8-25-03 46 1 three people that have that at this time, that -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Are those individuals required 3 to maintain that license? 4 MR. ODOM: No, not through the job 5 description. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Then, what I'm 7 concerned about is, if we're getting the benefits of the 8 special license which they have, but if they're not required 9 to hold that license -- 10 MR. ODOM: Well, they're -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: -- they wouldn't fall under 12 this. 13 MR. ODOM: But they are required to do it, as 14 far as this department's concerned right here, because it 15 gets down to using that license. You have to put your name 16 on the line. And -- and I get a little bit queasy when I 17 put mine on the line and I'm not out there all the time. 18 What it's designed for is that the supervisors are 19 responsible for their areas. They put their name on that -- 20 on that list. Mine is there, and has been used too in some 21 of those areas, but there's only three of us that have that. 22 So, yeah, there's a lot of education, a lot of testing to 23 even pass that. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I don't have a 25 problem. I mean, I'm just -- 8-25-03 47 1 MR. ODOM: When we did the job description, 2 it wasn't set up. It was a requirement by the State of 3 Texas later on that everybody would have one. When I first 4 came, you could go out and you could herbicide even with 5 Roundup. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, what other -- I 7 guess what I'm saying is, I understand the pesticide 8 license. What other licenses would fall under this policy? 9 MR. ODOM: The other one would be the -- I 10 forgot what it is I sent Barbara, but it -- there is a 11 requirement of three -- three educational deals for up to a 12 master's in this thing for heavy equipment operators and 13 all, so that has just been passed down. Basically, I would 14 imagine it's probably going to be -- in the future, be 15 mandatory. But A & M just come down with it, and it's 16 something that it's out there, and it's very good for 17 insurance and for workman's comp and for educating people 18 that we have that are 12-1 and 14-1, that have less 19 experience. It is a -- it is a tool in which to enhance 20 their -- their awareness of what's going on, how to do 21 equipment, how to do workplace barricading and signage and a 22 lot of things that we go over in safety meetings, but it's 23 -- it is a program to educate everybody, and you step up to 24 a master's program on this thing. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Those -- I guess what I'm 8-25-03 48 1 getting at, can we specifically list those we're talking 2 about? Or is there a reason -- 3 MR. ODOM: Personnel, you mean? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, licenses. 5 MR. ODOM: Oh, sure. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pesticide license. 7 You're talking about heavy equipment license. I mean, it 8 just -- rather than just say "special license," which is -- 9 MR. ODOM: It is a road maintenance -- 10 there's a degree in there of their expertise in educating 11 them. So, I can do that. I did send that to Barbara, I 12 thought, but I have it in the office. It's something we've 13 got and we've looked at, and we need to follow through on. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. If you can just 15 get the specific ones you're talking about -- 16 MR. ODOM: It's specific, and it tells all 17 the different -- you have to have so many hours out of each 18 one. So, yes, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move that we 21 approve the proposed, revised longevity and educational pay 22 increase policy. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With suggested 24 changes? 25 (Commissioner Nicholson nodded.) 8-25-03 49 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 3 the Court approve the proposed, revised longevity and 4 educational pay increase policy with the suggested changes. 5 And I assume those are for Road and Bridge only at this 6 point? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think so. That's 8 all you called attention to. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: To identify the particular 10 licenses that qualify under -- under those provisions. Is 11 there any further question or discussion? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. My preference would 13 be to wait until we get the actual one, because by voting on 14 something that we hadn't approved before is how we got in 15 the mess we're in this year. So, I won't vote for it until 16 we have the actual one, even though these changes are pretty 17 minor. The other question I have is, this policy will -- 18 I'm just making a note here that we will require all 19 departments to have a new budget item or budget line item 20 for ed -- I guess for educational. I don't see how you put 21 it in salaries. We're going to have to go back to the 22 budget and put in an education line item. That's going to 23 be -- or maybe we can put it in salaries. Somehow we have 24 to get it in the proper budget process for both of these 25 items. 8-25-03 50 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Good point. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If they're not -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you saying -- are 4 you saying that you won't vote for it because we haven't run 5 the numbers yet? We don't know how much it costs, and -- 6 and we don't know how much income we have and all that? 7 Or -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I won't vote for it 9 because this isn't the policy that I'm voting on. We're 10 talking about a policy that's still floating around, in my 11 mind, with some changes. That's why I won't vote for it. 12 But I'm just saying, we just need to know -- I support the 13 concept, but I want to look at the actual verbiage before I 14 vote for it. But I'm saying this has a budget impact now, 15 and the entire budget -- every department budget now has to 16 be relooked at. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me ask Tommy, 19 the budget that we received this morning, that we're going 20 to be working on tomorrow, did it anticipate these changes 21 in policy? 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, it did. Yes, it did. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the educational one, 24 as well as being -- 25 MR. TOMLINSON: Mm-hmm. 8-25-03 51 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 3 discussion? 4 MS. NEMEC: The -- it had the educational 5 that is effective this next budget year, but if there are 6 any employees who are going to receive an educational 7 increase or certificate from October 1 through September, 8 then we don't have those figures. Is that correct, Sheriff? 9 I mean, I didn't get them. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay, we do have -- most 11 of those are figured in there. We may end up with one or 12 two that get them that we're not counting on, but most of 13 mine have got them at this point. They're looking at 14 masters now; that's going to take years. I can see one or 15 two, possibly. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That are built in the 17 budget numbers that we're looking at today? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: All the ones that I was 19 aware of or that we anticipated are built in the budget 20 numbers you already have, okay? I won't sit here and tell 21 you that there may be one or two that may come up during the 22 budget year that I haven't looked at, but normally in our 23 budget, there's plenty of space there. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And they're budgeted 25 based on when they would receive them during the year? 8-25-03 52 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For the educational? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We gave our educational 4 and longevity -- the way we figured it and the way we gave 5 it to Barbara is, it is figured on their anniversary dates 6 and when we expect them to get those, and then we show 7 Barbara proof and send her a letter that they got it this 8 day, or they're -- they do it this way, and it's all figured 9 in our budget. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That clears it up for 11 me. If those numbers have already been run and the numbers 12 that we're dealing with are in the budget, I'm going to vote 13 for it. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm cool. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 16 discussion on the motion? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are Road and Bridge's 18 numbers in the budget? 19 MR. ODOM: Yes, they are. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For both? 21 MR. ODOM: Yes. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions? All in 23 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 24 (Commissioners Baldwin, Williams, and Nicholson voted in favor of the motion.) 25 8-25-03 53 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (Commissioner Letz voted against the motion.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 4 MS. NEMEC: I'll revise Number 7 and 8 and 5 provide each of you with a copy of it, as well as the County 6 Clerk's office. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much, 8 Ms. Nemec. At this time, the Court will recess the 9 Commissioners Court meeting scheduled for this date, and 10 will convene a public hearing on the request to hold an 11 election to approve a Mountain Home Emergency Service 12 District, that being -- I believe that the exact title of 13 the proposed district is Kerr County Emergency Services 14 District Number 1. 15 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:04 a.m., and a public hearing 16 was held in open court, as follows:) 17 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Am I -- am I correct in that 19 nomenclature? 20 MR. SYFAN: Yes, you are. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much. Is there 22 any member of the public that wishes to be heard in 23 connection with the request to hold an election to approve 24 the Kerr County Emergency Services District Number 1 that's 25 been filed with the Court? Thank you. Mr. Wheeler, as long 8-25-03 54 1 as you're up, feel free to come forward and give your name 2 to the reporter, if you would, please. 3 MR. WHEELER: My name is Jerry Wheeler; I 4 live in Mountain Home and am Assistant Chief of Mountain 5 Home Volunteer Fire Department, and I wish to express the 6 fire department's appreciation for the consideration of this 7 district. The firefighting apparatus and equipment -- 8 protection equipment that we need for our individual 9 firefighters is very expensive, hard to come by, and without 10 having some taxable income, we haven't the ability to 11 improve. I thank Mr. Syfan for the work that he's put into 12 it, the Court for considering it, and we, the members of 13 Mountain Home Fire Department, look favorably upon this 14 district. Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Wheeler. 16 Mr. Henson? 17 MR. HENSON: Yes, sir. Good morning. I'm 18 F.C. Henson. I'm a member of the volunteer fire department 19 as well, although I'm not here speaking for the volunteer 20 fire department. I live in Mountain Home, and in my 21 opinion, gentlemen, there's -- there's several driving 22 forces behind the need for a predictable funding for that 23 fire department. One of those reasons is that the types of 24 fires that we need to be prepared to address are increasing 25 in complexity. If we look back 20, 25 years in the county 8-25-03 55 1 and in that area, then the majority of -- of fires that we 2 needed to address were brush fires. And, quite frankly, 3 they're pretty simple to deal with. Today we've got many 4 more structures to deal with in the area. We've got up to 5 about 450 landowners, and well over twice as many structures 6 as we had 20 years ago. We have about 14 miles of 7 interstate that runs through our area, and we, from time to 8 time, get called out on car fires or to assist the local 9 authorities in dealing with accidents. So, we've got an 10 increase in -- in the amount of complexity. That requires 11 an increase in the amount and the types of equipment that we 12 need to have on-hand and need to be properly trained to deal 13 with. 14 At the same time, even though we're 15 successful from time to time in getting grants to help us 16 purchase some of that more expensive equipment, we have to 17 come up with matching funds, and we need to have the ability 18 to predict the amount of income that we're having; 19 mortgageable income, in fact, so that we can -- so that we 20 can invest over several years in additional -- additional 21 equipment. I'd also like to point out that another change 22 that's occurring in that area is that, although the 23 population growth is pretty significant in that area, the 24 numbers of people who are available to volunteer in that 25 fire department is not growing fast -- as fast, in my 8-25-03 56 1 opinion. And one of the reasons is, there's a lot of people 2 that are moving in the area that don't work on the land; 3 they work in town. Well, they can't respond to -- to a 4 call. Well, again, that shifts back to having equipment 5 that is more reliable, takes less -- less maintenance, and 6 also equipment that can be handled by fewer numbers of 7 people safely. So, I'm here speaking in behalf of putting 8 that -- that item on the ballot, because I think the people 9 in the area need the opportunity to make a judgment as to 10 how they want to address fires, either by paying for them 11 when they rebuild their barn, or paying for them in the way 12 of modest increases in taxes. Thank you very much. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Henson. We 14 appreciate it. Mr. Bernard Syfan? 15 MR. SYFAN: I'll wear the other hat. The 16 emergency service district is really not what we started out 17 for, but it's what's we ended up with because of the 18 Legislature's action. We are getting an emergency service 19 district rather than a fire district, because fire districts 20 will no longer be after the 1st of September. They're going 21 to all have to convert to service districts, and the taxing 22 ability is going up. So, my intention, if I have anything 23 to do with it, will be to hold our taxes at the old fire 24 district level of 3 cents. Unless people somewhere down the 25 line decide to expand into other fields, I think that's 8-25-03 57 1 where we ought to stay. The income that we're going to get 2 off of this is not large; it will be something like $11,000 3 or $12,000 a year. But, at the present rate, it is not 4 much, but it is for sure, and I can go to the bank -- or the 5 fire department can go to the bank and say, "Yes, we do have 6 this much income," and so they can get a loan. Going to the 7 bank and getting a loan for a $100,000 piece of equipment 8 over 10 years is possible now, where -- with this, where 9 it's impossible without it. You can't go to the bank and 10 say, "Maybe I'm going to get a donation," and -- and get a 11 loan. They just won't give it to you. So, we can dedicate 12 moneys to fire equipment. And the -- the district is a 13 completely separate entity from the fire department, and it 14 will be just a sugar daddy for the fire department. And if 15 you have any questions, I'll try to answer them. Other than 16 that, I think we're all on the right track to do something 17 good for the community. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much, 19 Mr. Syfan. We appreciate you being here today. Is there 20 anyone else who wishes to speak in connection with the 21 public hearing for the request to hold an election to that 22 approve emergency services district? Being no one else 23 coming forward, I'll close the public hearing. 24 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:11 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 25 meeting was reopened.) 8-25-03 58 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2 JUDGE TINLEY: And we will move to Item 3 Number 1.7, which is to consider and take action to set an 4 election for November 4, 2003, to allow the election to 5 decide on the creation of -- this states Mountain Home 6 Emergency Service District. Actually, what we're speaking 7 about, as I mentioned previously, is Kerr County Emergency 8 Services District Number 1, I believe it is. What's the 9 pleasure of the Court, gentlemen? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, question. How is 11 it governed? Dave or Mr. Syfan may know more. 12 MR. SYFAN: The district is governed by a 13 board of five who are appointed by you, and they are 14 appointed annually by you. If the district is formed prior 15 to the 1st of the year, you appoint them, and that 16 appointment lasts till the 1st of the year, and then you'll 17 have to reappoint them. But we won't be getting any money 18 for a while. It has to be set up and then put into next 19 year's taxing process. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do have one 22 question for Mr. Syfan. You referenced 3 cents as the tax 23 rate. Was that a cap of 3, or was that so that you could go 24 up to 3, or that would be your initial rate? 25 MR. SYFAN: No, that initial rate will have 8-25-03 59 1 to be set by the board that you -- it will be set by a 2 request from the fire department to the board, the board you 3 set up, and then that is set by the board, actually. But my 4 comment on the 3 cents, the -- the fire district that we 5 have in the county there in Ingram has somewhat less than 3 6 cents. And it might be somewhat less than 3 cents, but that 7 will have to be determined by the board that you appoint. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But you have the 9 ability to go up to 10, do you not? 10 MR. SYFAN: Well, I'm not positive about 11 that. I have been told that for fire service only, you have 12 the ability to go up to 3. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 14 MR. SYFAN: But if you added on an ambulance 15 or other service district items, then you can go beyond. 16 But I don't think, as for pure fire, from what I 17 understand -- and I haven't heard evidence -- haven't read 18 it in the law, but I've been told by the people who are 19 interpreting the law that that is the limit. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's no provision to 21 this -- for this to be an elected board? 22 MR. SYFAN: No. It's a straight-out -- I 23 have the law here. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it's -- I'm just -- 25 MR. SYFAN: It's -- this is the way they go. 8-25-03 60 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 2 MR. SYFAN: They're appointed by the -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioners. 4 MR. SYFAN: -- Commissioners Court annually, 5 in January. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: My admiration for 7 our volunteer fire departments throughout Kerr County is 8 well known, so I won't make that speech again. I have seen 9 that the Ingram Fire Department, in part because they have a 10 taxing authority, has been able to make significant 11 progress; it's even been able to get grants that they might 12 not and loans that they night not otherwise be able to get. 13 I also have talked extensively to people in the Mountain 14 Home community, and I sense that there's strong support for 15 this. I don't recall -- I've haven't talked to anyone who 16 doesn't support it. And, based on that, I'm going to move 17 that we take action to set an election for November 4th, 18 2003, to allow the electorate at Mountain Home to decide on 19 the creation of the Mountain Home Emergency Service District 20 and authorize the Judge to sign it. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question, 22 Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll second that 24 motion. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 8-25-03 61 1 the Court set an election for November 4, 2003, to allow the 2 voters to decide on the creation of what's referred to as 3 the "Mountain Home Emergency Services District," but which 4 is legally titled "Kerr County Emergency Services District 5 Number 1." 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That takes care of my 7 question, Judge. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And to authorize the Judge to 9 issue an order -- or sign an order in connection with the 10 calling of such election. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I have a couple 12 of questions. This is the Kerr County Emergency Service 13 District Number 1, and then we have the Kerr County Fire 14 District Number 1 at Ingram. Is that not -- isn't that 15 correct? It also has that Number 1. Isn't that -- 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's Number 1, but I 17 was thinking it was the Ingram -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Fire district. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- Fire District 20 Number 1. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I could be wrong. Be 22 the first time this year, but I could be. 23 MR. SYFAN: No, Ingram is a fire district. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kerr County or Ingram? 25 MR. SYFAN: It's a Kerr County Fire District 8-25-03 62 1 Number 1. I talked with Charlie Stone at the State when we 2 started this, and I said, "Hey, this question is in my mind. 3 Which way is it?" He said, "You will be a completely 4 different thing. You are Number 1 in that completely 5 different thing." Even though -- if they fold Fire District 6 Number 1 into a service district, it will become Number 2, 7 3, or 4, depending on if somebody else has come in. But 8 it'll be a completely different thing, according to Charlie 9 Stone. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You and I -- you and I 11 see that clearly. I understand that. Mr. Jones out there 12 on the street making a donation to one or the other may not 13 see that very clearly. That's fine, as long as everybody 14 understands. 15 MR. SYFAN: Nothing I can do about it. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's probably 17 true as well. My other question is the same question I had 18 for you last time, the boundary lines. Are there clearly 19 defined boundary lines? 20 MR. SYFAN: Yes. We -- the fire department 21 itself defined the boundaries. They went in to the 22 Appraisal District and -- and drew a map, and that map we've 23 got copies of. I don't have the big one here with me, but 24 it is not only clearly defined on the map; by law, it had to 25 be given what they call metes and bounds. Rather loosely 8-25-03 63 1 given as metes and bounds. But a surveyor prepared and I 2 paid for the metes and bounds description, which was 3 reviewed by the State and deemed to be sufficient. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wonderful. 5 MR. SYFAN: And there might be additions to 6 this district somewhere down the line, but it's defined 7 very, very succinctly right now. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I need to amend my 9 motion to strike the term "Mountain Home Emergency Service 10 District Number 1," and replace it with "Kerr County 11 Emergency Service District Number 1." 12 MR. SYFAN: That would be correct. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question I have is -- and 14 it's going probably more to Jannett. What has to be done -- 15 and my concern is that there was a statement in there to 16 authorize the County Judge to sign everything to do with 17 this. To me, I have a problem with that. If the 18 Commissioners Court's going to be making appointments and 19 doing the stuff, what do you have to do -- what does the 20 Judge -- what is the process to get this thing on the ballot 21 that you have to do? 22 MS. PIEPER: I will submit the order for the 23 Judge for his signature, and I'll hold the election. I'll 24 hold the early voting, we'll do mail ballots, whatever we're 25 required to do. 8-25-03 64 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll vote for it, but I 2 really do not like that. I don't -- I would -- I really 3 want to look at these things. I want to look at the 4 boundary myself. I want to know, you know, what we're 5 calling the election for when the paperwork finally gets 6 prepared, mainly because I'm going to be responsible for 7 making appointments to it. And if there's a mistake, I can 8 say it's his fault, but the responsibility still goes back 9 to me for letting him have that decision. So, I really wish 10 that this thing would come back to the Court when it's 11 actually called for the election and Jannett does the actual 12 paperwork. But, you know, I won't vote against it. 13 MS. RECTOR: Jonathan, Bernard and I have 14 defined those lines and defined all of the property owners 15 within those boundaries. We've worked pretty closely with 16 that. So -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I trust everyone. It's 18 just that I -- if I have to vote on it, make adjustments to 19 it later, I would rather look at the items myself. Just the 20 way I am. I mean, 'cause I'm responsible. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 22 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 23 your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8-25-03 65 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Thank you 3 very much, Mr. Syfan. We appreciate it. 4 MR. SYFAN: Would you like a copy? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, at some point. 6 Really, what I want is a copy of what Jannett has, and if I 7 find a problem or something that I don't like, I'll get it 8 back on the agenda. 9 MR. SYFAN: I'll guarantee you, you can't 10 read it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm more concerned about 12 the order for calling -- the official order that goes to 13 call the election is what I'm concerned about. 14 MR. SYFAN: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not the boundary. The 16 boundary, I'll leave that to you and Paula and the residents 17 out there. But I just -- you know, that's just the way I 18 am. I mean, I'm responsible, so I'd like to be involved in 19 the process a little bit more. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's from Comfort. 21 Hard-headed. 22 MR. SYFAN: He wants to look at it even 23 though he won't know what it says. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. I imagine 8-25-03 66 1 I'll know what it says when I'm looking at it. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The Court will now move on to 3 Item 1.8, consider and discuss opening proposals for 4 electrical, plumbing, and HVAC, as advertised. This was a 5 publicly advertised item, with the bid submission to the 6 Court to be done at 10 a.m. this date. It was timed for 7 that. We're running a little bit behind, but at a minimum, 8 we need to accept and receive those bids now. Mr. Auditor, 9 I believe that -- have we got them all here? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, that's what I have. 11 (Commissioner Baldwin left the courtroom.) 12 MR. TOMLINSON: I think there's one -- one 13 proposal in each one. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: What do we have first? 15 Electrical? Hold on to those for me, would you? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Make myself useful. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: It appears that we have been 18 submitted one bid for the electrical service for the ensuing 19 fiscal year. That bid was submitted by Guadalupe Electric. 20 It appears to be in proper form and in compliance with the 21 bid requirements. At this point, I'll not belabor the 22 record with all of the details of it. It would seem that 23 the appropriate disposition at this point would be to refer 24 them to possibly our Maintenance Department for review and 25 bring it back to us? 8-25-03 67 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You might just, for the 2 record, mention -- did you say who it's from? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, I did. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which one do we have now? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: The next one will be the 6 plumbing. Again, it appears that we received one bid, that 7 being from Whelan Plumbing. It also appears to be in proper 8 form, at least from a preliminary review, and in compliance 9 with the bid requirements and requests. Next is HVAC. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which I don't see any in 11 there. Looks like Hardin. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: There's a notation on the 13 sign-in sheet that an individual representing Hardin Heating 14 and Cooling had signed the sign-in sheet, but were there any 15 bids submitted from Hardin or anyone else within the time as 16 required pursuant to the advertisement? 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: The sign-in sheet just meant 18 that they picked up a -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: A bid request form? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: -- bid package; that is 21 correct. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: We had no responses for the 23 HVAC. Do I hear a motion that we refer these bids to our 24 supervisor of Maintenance for review, and report back to the 25 Court at the next regular scheduled meeting? 8-25-03 68 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 4 seconded that the bids as received be submitted to the 5 Maintenance Supervisor for review and report back to the 6 Court as to his thoughts on them. Any further questions or 7 discussion? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. These are 9 effective October 1? Or immediately? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: No, the bids are effective for 11 the ensuing fiscal year beginning October 1. That's what 12 they went out for. Any further question or discussion? All 13 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. That 18 brings us to the last timed item, dealing with 911. Where 19 is Commissioner Baldwin? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: He's already gone to 21 the press conference. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: He went to the press 23 conference, I see. That item is a press conference for 911 24 address changes. Presumably, that's being held at some 25 location other than in this room. 8-25-03 69 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's outside. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Why it's on our agenda, I 3 don't know. But -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: We are where we are, and 6 that's what it is. So, at -- I don't think it would be 7 appropriate at this point to call a recess, since it's in 8 the middle of an agenda item. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Your Honor, I believe the 10 purpose, based on the fact -- 11 AUDIENCE: There he is. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The reason for the agenda 13 item was to get publicity and press for these mailouts going 14 out, so I would -- I do think it's appropriate to not 15 recess, but to go to the press conference, whatever it may 16 be. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm concerned about dragging 18 the reporter around, and if we're going to have her doing 19 all this, if we're going to handle it as an agenda item, we 20 need to have her there so that we being have our record 21 complete of these proceedings. So -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can we have no action on 23 the agenda item and recess for the press conference? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be satisfactory. 25 Do I -- do I hear a motion to that effect? 8-25-03 70 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded 5 that -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the motion? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That we take no action on the 8 Item 1.5, but recess the meeting to the press conference 9 itself. Any further questions or discuss? All in favor of 10 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll stand in recess and 15 we'll attend the press conference. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Press conference is 17 upstairs in District Court Number 1. I didn't know that 18 till just this moment. 19 (Recess taken from 10:29 a.m. to 11:08 a.m.) 20 - - - - - - - - - - 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I will reconvene the 22 Commissioners Court meeting scheduled for this day, having 23 gone into recess a short while ago. It's now approximately 24 8 minutes after 11 a.m. Next item on the agenda is 25 consideration and discussion of moving Flood Control fund 8-25-03 71 1 balance to Road and Bridge budget. Commissioner Baldwin, do 2 you need to make any further explanation of that item? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I really don't -- 4 don't -- what number is that? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Number 12. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I really don't think 7 so. It's something that we, in our budget discussions, 8 agreed that Road and Bridge is where the Flood Control fund 9 balance needs to be, so I move that we move it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 12 the Flood Control fund balance be moved over to the Road and 13 Bridge budget. Any further questions or discussion? All in 14 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 19 is consideration, discussion and appropriate action on 20 re-establishing the Justice Court Technology Fund, which 21 derived from the imposition of a $4 technology fee on 22 defendants convicted of misdemeanor offenses. Commissioner 23 Williams? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. 25 This will be our second go at this. We did enact this at 8-25-03 72 1 one time. The purpose of it is the Legislature enabled the 2 justice courts to put on a $4 technology fee of defendants 3 convicted of misdemeanor offenses. Subsequent to our 4 putting it on, we learned from communications from Texas 5 Association of Counties' General Counsel that there was a 6 court challenge to -- that he thought might have some -- 7 some bearing on the establishment of this particular fund. 8 That -- that particular incident or -- or court challenge 9 actually had to do with a -- a County Court at Law 10 challenge, but nonetheless, it went to trial. The suit was 11 dismissed. The litigation created questions about other 12 numerous court fees collected by counties, including this 13 fund, and so we were advised probably to be cautious about 14 it. So, as a result of that word of caution, we rescinded 15 the J.P. technology fund, because we didn't want to get 16 caught in a situation of escrowing dollars that subsequently 17 might have been ruled illegal, and have to give them back, 18 track down those people and so forth. So, we rescinded it. 19 We have a letter now from the Texas 20 Association of Counties' General Counsel, who said that the 21 District Court in the Caldwell case recently ruled that the 22 fees collected in that particular lawsuit, with respect to 23 the Texas Government Code section, is constitutional, and 24 dismissed all claims of that particular class. And he goes 25 on to say that since there is no appeal of this judgment, 8-25-03 73 1 and no other parallel cases, there is no legal impediment to 2 prevent counties from budgeting and spending the fees 3 collected in the J.P. Technology Fund as allowed by law, 4 through the section of law. It goes into a fund that's used 5 for technology purposes only. And that's the background of 6 it, and I would move the re-establishment of the Justice 7 Court Technology Fund for Kerr County. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I second that motion. 9 I've got a question, though. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 11 reestablish the J.P. Court Technology Fund and impose the 12 fee of $4 -- technology fee of $4 on defendants convicted of 13 misdemeanor offenses, as provided in the enabling 14 legislation for the J.P. Court Technology Fund. Any further 15 questions or discussion? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You said in your 17 statement a minute ago that we decided to -- to change it in 18 case there was an escrow sitting over there and we found it 19 illegal, who knows what might happen to it. Is that escrow 20 still sitting over there? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't think we ever 22 collected anything, Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, we never did get 24 it. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When we rescinded it, 8-25-03 74 1 I think we never did collect it, to my knowledge. Am I 2 correct, Tommy? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: I think we collected it for a 4 short time, and -- and then -- and during that period is 5 when the -- the question of the constitutionality of the -- 6 of the fee came about, and that's when we -- I think 7 there's a small amount of money in the fund balance. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Cool. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do we have an 10 estimate of how much collecting this fee would bring in 11 every year? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Honestly, I don't, 13 Commissioner. I wish I did. It can't be a large amount, 14 but -- 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- whatever it is, it 17 helps. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Is the definition of 19 a justice court -- that's the same as the J.P. court? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. J.P. court, yes. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Whatever it is, we 22 can -- we can consume that amount of money on these things, 23 computer systems and et cetera. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would -- I bet this is 8-25-03 75 1 a pretty big sum of money. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It might be. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe it's all 4 traffic tickets. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, it would apply to all 6 traffic tickets. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, it would. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, you know, there's -- 9 I bet we're going to -- I bet this will be a source to fund 10 a lot of upgrades and technology changes in those offices. 11 I mean, I think this will be a big help to future budgets. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I agree with you. Any further 13 questions or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 14 signify by raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 19 is consideration and discussion of proposed, new On-Site 20 Septic Facility Rules and Regulations for Kerr County, as 21 recommended by the joint committee, and setting a public 22 hearing on the same. Commissioners Letz and Nicholson. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll get it started. 24 This is very similar to the recommended rules that we 25 brought last time, that we got twisted off in some other 8-25-03 76 1 discussions. Basically, it is the -- the purpose of this 2 item is to set the public hearing to do that. I think this 3 Court needs to approve the rules for the public hearing. It 4 does not mean we're adopting them. It's just a way that we 5 can get feedback from the residents. I will note that 6 the -- there is a significant change from the current order 7 for O.S.S.F., and that change is the real estate transfer 8 provisions that currently exist are totally deleted, and 9 there is another change that relates to the -- what's 10 commonly called the 10-acre exemption. I'll just read the 11 language; it's under Section 10. "Regardless of acreage 12 involved, any new construction, alteration, or extension of 13 an O.S.S.F. located within Kerr County, Texas are required 14 to be permitted and licensed." 15 This is -- the requirement here really is 16 only a licensing. The systems -- there's no change in what 17 needs to be put in under state law, how it's installed, who 18 can install it and everything else. It just says that these 19 systems have to be inspected. And it's pretty simple. 20 The -- these rules are -- or these recommended rules are 21 slightly different in verbiage than -- than U.G.R.A. had at 22 their public hearing. There was a requirement under theirs 23 that any repair also would require it to be licensed and 24 permitted. Commissioner Nicholson and myself felt that 25 "repair" is an ambiguous term, even though it is defined 8-25-03 77 1 under Chapter 285, so that was omitted from ours. The joint 2 committee is aware of this; they just set their public 3 hearing prior to our last meeting. I don't think -- there's 4 a note, there are some other issues pending related to 5 U.G.R.A. and other things that were bought up at their 6 public hearing, and in my mind, and I believe Commissioner 7 Nicholson's also -- he can speak for himself -- those issues 8 do not affect this in any way. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. And I think 10 it's time to set the public hearing and move the process 11 along. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I'll make a motion 13 that we set a public hearing -- and I'm pausing, because I'm 14 thinking of a date, and I don't have a calendar in front of 15 me. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have one. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I do not believe there is 18 a 30-day requirement for this; I believe there's only a 19 72-hour requirement. I think we need to give as much time 20 as possible, but at the same time, this does have some 21 budget implications, so it needs to be done. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably first meeting in -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: First meeting in 24 September, which would be the -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: 8th. 8-25-03 78 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- 8th. I'd say 10 a.m., 2 September 8th. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second the motion. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 6 a public hearing be set for September 8th, 2003, at 10 a.m. 7 on the proposed, new O.S.S.F. Rules and Regulations for Kerr 8 County, as presented. Questions or discussion? You had a 9 question? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have two questions. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: First question is, 13 we're approving it for the purpose of setting a public 14 hearing; is that correct? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second, will you 17 accept a change? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, maybe to make 20 it grammatically correct? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, maybe. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On (A), second line, 23 "are" should be changed to "is." That's it for today. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And take the period 25 out following "Texas." 8-25-03 79 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There you go -- make 2 a comma out of it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I do have a 5 question about (A), commonly known as the 10-acre rule. 6 Now, the 10-acre rule is a part of the state rules; is that 7 right? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. And, so, if -- 10 if this is passed, then it has to go to Austin for approval 11 of whoever's in charge of all this stuff these days? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it has to go, 13 either way, to Austin. Regardless -- whatever our new order 14 is, it has to be approved by T.C.E.Q. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably so. But this 16 -- this would be a change to their rules, so you 17 definitely -- I'm assuming you definitely would have to. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is a more stringent 19 requirement than state law requires, so yes, this has to be 20 approved by T.C.E.Q. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. Okay. Now, 22 in my visiting -- see, I'm a 10-acre rule fan. I like the 23 10-acre rule. I'm not going to fight you over it, but I 24 just want to let you know I like the 10-acre rule. So, I 25 have been out kind of visiting around, trying to find out 8-25-03 80 1 what's -- what's driving this boat, and I was told -- I was 2 told that every county around us has dropped the 10-acre 3 rule. And then I go to someone else and ask them what's 4 going on. They said no, nobody's dropped it; everybody 5 still has it. I was just wondering if there -- you know, 6 what are -- I'm going to get to you. I mean, this question 7 is to you. What are -- what are other counties doing? And 8 -- go ahead. 9 MR. LOVELAND: According to T.C.E.Q. -- I'm 10 Scott Loveland with U.G.R.A. According to T.C.E.Q., Ken 11 Graber, the most common rule change across the state is to 12 permit everything, or elimination of the 10-acre rule. I've 13 called about 20 surrounding counties, and all of them have 14 done that, have dropped the 10-acre. They license -- excuse 15 me -- they license everything. So, that includes Gillespie, 16 Kendall, Bandera, Atascosa, Menard, Mason. I've got a 17 list -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 19 MR. LOVELAND: -- I've started to compile. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's just so 21 interesting. I can't -- I just can't get my mind there. I 22 just think that, you know, if I had -- if I had a 23 10,000-acre ranch -- and I know we've all heard this 24 argument before, but I'm -- that's where I'm at. If you had 25 a 10,000-acre ranch, and I'm going to build a new home and 8-25-03 81 1 I'm going to put in a new septic system, I don't want you 2 out there licensing my system. First of all, if I can 3 afford a 10,000-acre ranch with a nice place, you can rest 4 assured it's going to be a top-quality, number one, best 5 septic system you can buy. So, I just don't want you out 6 there. I mean, what am I going to pollute? So, you know, 7 I'm not asking you those questions, but that's just kind of 8 -- that's kind of where I'm at, and that's why I like the -- 9 like the 10-acre rule, to exempt those over 10 acres. Or 10 20, whatever number. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. One comment 12 I'll make; I think I had this conversation with Commissioner 13 Baldwin before. I don't disagree with him. I think that 14 the -- my main purpose for proceeding to where we are right 15 now, I want to hear from the public on this issue, and the 16 way you hear from them is you put it in here that we make -- 17 we may make it more stringent here. I see -- I can argue 18 for hours on both sides of the fence here. I see reasons 19 that are good to eliminate the 10-acre exemption, and I can 20 see other reasons that are equally good to keep it where it 21 is. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think it's -- you 24 know, I'll leave it at that. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well -- 8-25-03 82 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Our -- our committee 2 report represented a consensus of the committee, and any 3 deliberations there were give-and-take throughout the 4 process. We're also talking about cost and budgeting issues 5 as well as rules. And I think Commissioner Letz would -- 6 would agree that I was consistent in my position, that I did 7 not want to drop the 10-acre exemption. I do want to hear 8 from the public, and -- and hear the arguments from both 9 sides. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have one other 12 question, Judge. Is this proposed set of rules upon which 13 there will be a public hearing conducted identical to the 14 same -- to the set of rules that U.G.R.A. conducted a public 15 hearing on? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. The word -- as I 17 mentioned, the word "repair" was in theirs. And it's -- the 18 language that U.G.R.A. used was "regardless of acreage 19 involved, any new construction, repair, alteration, or 20 extension." We have deleted the word "repair." And the 21 joint committee is aware of that. Their public hearing was 22 set before we -- our last meeting, and it was agreed by the 23 joint committee that that word "repair" should come out. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have they taken final 25 action on what they took out of the public hearing? 8-25-03 83 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: If I might, gentlemen, a 4 couple of grammatical changes that I would propose to Page 5 2, under Section 13, third line, "administer the Court's," 6 that should have an apostrophe there. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where are you? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: 13, Appeals, Page 2. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second paragraph? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: First paragraph, third line. 11 Court's, apostrophe S, O.S.S.F. program. Next line, General 12 Manager, apostrophe S, add. Next line, General Manager, 13 apostrophe S, office. Immediately following that, again, 14 apostrophe S. At the end of the parenthetical, change that 15 period to a comma, and lowercase the T on "the" immediately 16 following. Second paragraph of 13, "chooses to administer 17 the O.S.S.F. program," change semicolon to comma. Next 18 line, action or decision of "its," as opposed to "their" 19 Designated Representative. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge? On the second 21 paragraph, first line, "Kerr County" -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: "Chooses to administer the 23 O.S.S.F. program." 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You want to take out 25 "o-w-n," do you not? 8-25-03 84 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I want to take out "there," 2 t-h-e-r-e, and "own," and substitute "the." 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: And change that semicolon to a 5 comma immediately following the program. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I would -- I see 7 you have those marked there. I would suggest that we delay 8 a vote on this until after lunch, and see if U.G.R.A. can 9 get these changes put back in, because I think it's very 10 important to have this exactly so we can give it to the 11 public. I don't -- I mean, I'm not comfortable voting on it 12 and won't vote for it with these. And I agree with your 13 changes. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: They're grammatical changes, 15 but I'll be guided by your wishes. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think they're pretty 17 significant. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Quite a few of them. 19 And my comments were just -- I just wanted to take a stand 20 and make a statement in case, when we get to the public 21 hearing -- when you see me with chicken wire up here to keep 22 the beer bottles from being thrown at me, that's the only -- 23 I just want to let you know where I'm at. 'Cause there will 24 be. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I would guess, 8-25-03 85 1 based on U.G.R.A.'s public hearing, which was very 2 well-attended, from my conversations with Commissioner 3 Nicholson and Mr. Etter, we will hear all sides of this 4 issue. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And other issues. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me see if I understand 8 where we are at this particular point in time. We had a 9 motion and a second to set a public hearing, and then we got 10 sidetracked by the specific language that the public hearing 11 was going to be upon. Am I correct in that analysis? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Then I heard a suggestion that 14 we defer a vote on this until after lunch, until we have the 15 opportunity to make the specific changes on the specific 16 order that we're going to request a public hearing on. Who 17 offered the motion? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Me. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Are you withdrawing the 20 motion to approve? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I -- and the reason I 24 say that is I think it's important, and I -- I believe 25 U.G.R.A. has kept track of it here, and they prepared the 8-25-03 86 1 draft. They ought to be able to make these changes quickly, 2 get them back by 1:30, when we're meeting again anyway. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We're talking only 5 about grammatical changes in Section 10 and 13? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I perceived them 8 to be, but if there's no further motion to be offered on 9 this agenda item, we'll move on to the next item. Next item 10 is consideration and discussion of elimination of position 11 and removal of Kerr County -- excuse me. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can I have your copy? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here, Stuart, take 14 it. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You might want to 16 take the Judge's also. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 18 MR. BARRON: Do you want me to hand-deliver 19 or just e-mail it over to you? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hand-deliver. 21 MR. BARRON: All right. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item, consider and 23 discuss elimination of position of Road -- Kerr County Road 24 Engineer and issuance of notice to Road Engineer of such 25 action, set public hearing on such action if necessary. 8-25-03 87 1 This matter came up in connection with the budgetary 2 process, and the possibility that that position -- or the 3 function of that position would be outsourced on a contract 4 basis to -- to engineers. If my sense of -- of where we are 5 in the budgetary process and the direction we're going there 6 is correct, we may -- may be talking about something we 7 don't need to be talking about at this point. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's my guess. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My understanding. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not making a motion. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. No one having a motion 12 to offer on that setting a public hearing on it, we'll move 13 on to the next item. That's consideration and discussion of 14 a contract between Kerr County and Pressler, Thompson and 15 Company for outside audit services. Mr. Auditor? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't have anything to say 17 about it. Just -- I'd like to have the contract signed. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have that. 19 Oh, it's under 19, Buster, in my book. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. I -- I reshuffled mine. 21 Apparently, it -- when the agenda was originally put 22 together, why, there were some items that got put in later, 23 and so where you find it may not be exactly where you're 24 looking for it. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 8-25-03 88 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Essentially, they are offering 2 to do the audit based upon their standard fees, with an 3 estimate, or a -- that their fee will not exceed $26,850. 4 That -- that's a cap, is my understanding, correct? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: That's correct. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My recollection is that 8 we -- because of the GASB situation, we chose not to go out 9 for proposals on a new audit at this time, and we're going 10 to approve this -- or not necessarily approve it; that we're 11 going to stick with the current firm. So, I would make a 12 motion that we approve the contract with Pressler, Thompson 13 and -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- Company as presented. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made that the audit 17 proposal contract between Kerr County and Pressler Thompson 18 Company for outside audit service be approved. Any further 19 questions or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 20 signify by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 25 is the consideration and discussion of a drainage easement 8-25-03 89 1 as requested by the City of Kerrville, to prevent damage 2 from occurring along Quinlan Creek. This item -- it's kind 3 of hard to tell exactly where this property is. I believe 4 it's somewhere off of Fourth Street? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Third. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Third Street? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. Third, yeah. 9 Okay. It's some property that Kerr County ended up with in 10 trust as the result of a tax foreclosure. We actually hold 11 title to it for the benefit of all taxing agencies, having 12 jurisdiction to impose taxes on that property in the 13 respective proportions of their taxes that were foreclosed 14 on that project. But we hold title to it, so we're in a 15 position to -- to grant the permission, I assume. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we have the 17 authority to speak for -- even though there's other 18 government entities that are owed money on the thing? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: City and school -- city, 20 school, U.G.R.A. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And we have -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Headwaters. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we have that 24 authority to make this kind of decision? I -- if we do, I 25 want to participate in this program. 8-25-03 90 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It would be foolish 3 for us not to, and I'll hold that particular program up. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you think it might be wise 5 that we either, one, get an opinion from the County Attorney 6 that we do, in fact, have the authority to do this? And/or 7 maybe give each of those taxing agencies the -- the 8 opportunity to -- if they've got anything they want to tell 9 us about it, speak now or forever hold their peace, as it 10 goes? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, certainly. 12 Certainly. I misunderstood. I thought you said that we had 13 the authority. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: It's my understanding. It's 15 been indicated to me that I do. Maybe -- 16 MS. RECTOR: Since it is in trust to the 17 County, that's where the beginning of it starts. Upon 18 approval from the other taxing jurisdictions; that's the way 19 we've always handled any type of -- of tax foreclosure 20 property. If it's in trust to the County, we decide what we 21 want to do with it, and then go to the other entities for 22 their approval. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. Okay. That 25 makes sense to me. 8-25-03 91 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. So, what might be 2 appropriate at this point, if the Court has no -- if the 3 Court is in favor of doing that, that they approve that 4 subject to the approval of all the other taxing agencies who 5 have a stake in this matter. 6 MS. RECTOR: Right. Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, the question of 8 having authority is really -- I mean, that's not a question 9 any more. We have the authority to do that. 10 MS. RECTOR: To start the ball rolling, yes. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I move we start 12 the ball rolling. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 16 seconded that -- that the Court grant the drainage easement 17 subject to the approval of all taxing agencies having a 18 stake in this particular property, and for whom we hold the 19 same in trust. Any further questions or discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. Is holding it 21 in trust the same as having title to it? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I think we actually have title 23 to it. That's how it got put in -- 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So we could choose 25 to dispose of it if we desire? 8-25-03 92 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. But I think, based upon 2 what the Tax Assessor said, our normal course of action is, 3 prior to doing that, we would clear -- clear it with 4 everybody that's -- 5 MS. RECTOR: I have already tried sealed 6 bid -- the sealed bid process, and it's totally in the 7 floodplain. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Nobody wants it. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is why we have it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But if we lumped it in 12 with the airport and the library... (Laughter.) 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hey. 14 AUDIENCE: And the Ag Barn. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 16 discussion? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I was just 18 wondering, it's in the floodplain. Is there -- is there a 19 way to get rid of it or give it to the City as a park? Or 20 just something -- something else we can do with this thing? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nice try. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I've -- I've got a system that 23 I've used in the past. I'll talk to you about that 24 privately, maybe. Any further questions or discussion? All 25 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 8-25-03 93 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 5 is consider and discuss approval of contract between Kerr 6 County and the Hunt Volunteer Fire Department, authorize 7 County Judge to sign the same. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What number would 9 that be? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 21. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I find it under 18, 13 because I moved mine around. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I find it under 21, 15 thank you. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. The contract was 17 submitted to us by the Hunt Volunteer Fire Department. I 18 believe the differences in the standard contract are noted 19 there on the cover letter. The mutual aid assistance, as 20 required by Texas statutes and Texas Forest Service, and 21 then, of course, they've opted out of the worker's comp 22 insurance coverage, because they provide their own. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question for 24 you, Judge. Can we approve a contract that sets out 25 consideration for $11,000 before we approve that in the 8-25-03 94 1 budget, even though it probably is clearly our intention to 2 do that? 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's -- this 4 contract is for the year that we're currently in. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Current year? Not 6 the ensuing? 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: They just hadn't 8 signed it. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh. No question. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think that's been 11 a common practice. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is $11,000, that's 13 right. Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My question would be 15 the response areas and mutual aid assistance and those kinds 16 of things. Is it -- is there a requirement -- I mean, the 17 present contract says that -- provide fire protection to 18 their primary fire response area. Now, in order for them to 19 go out of their primary area into someone else's primary 20 area, do they have interlocal agreements? Or do they have 21 an interlocal agreement with us, and then that allows them 22 to -- I mean, just kind of a technical question there. It's 23 not a great big thing in my mind, but I'm just wondering 24 about that, because they're asking to change that verbiage. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: It's the Services Provided 8-25-03 95 1 paragraph that you're referring to? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, mm-hmm. 3 Personally, I like what they're talking -- what they're 4 saying there, to provide mutual aid assistance to anybody 5 upon -- upon request. That's what volunteer fire 6 departments are all about. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, this 8 is one of the several issues that the Hunt Volunteer Fire 9 Department has had with this contract for the last several 10 years. This -- the contract is the one approved in form by 11 the Court this time last year. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And they believe 14 that it's necessary to include this exception to it, or 15 whatever you want to call it, to point out that they're 16 required by the Texas Forest Service to provide mutual aid 17 assistance. I don't think it's -- I don't think there's a 18 substantial issue here in our new -- the new contract that 19 we've recently reviewed including language such as this. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I mean -- go 21 ahead. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: For all departments? 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. In the -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is the old form, 25 then? 8-25-03 96 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Old form. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And they're making 4 these two exceptions or clarifications. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I really think 6 that the -- probably, for clarification, I don't have a 7 problem, but the way it's worded now says, "in accordance 8 with the rules of the State of Texas," and presumably that's 9 the rules of the Texas Forest Service, which is part of the 10 State of Texas, so it's covered that way. I mean, it's 11 covered right now because it's part of the state law. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And in the second one, 13 the present verbiage in there says, "Kerr County shall 14 provide worker's compensation coverage," and they want to 15 decline that offer, and -- for reasons unknown. And that's 16 fine; I don't care anything about that. Any my only request 17 is, wherever -- whoever maintains this contract, to maintain 18 this letter from the Hunt Volunteer Fire Department right 19 along with it, because two years down the road, they're 20 going to come back screaming and whining and moaning and all 21 over the floor of why the County does not provide them with 22 worker's comp just like we do everybody else. This letter 23 has to join -- 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I agree. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- this contract, 8-25-03 97 1 because that is going to happen. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. The -- I think 3 the -- you're exactly right, the letter should accompany the 4 contract. The facts are that they buy an insurance package 5 that includes all the various insurances they need, 6 including worker's comp, and by doing that, they get a lower 7 rate than they would if they excluded the worker's comp. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. Sure. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: In fact, through 10 KARFA, we've encouraged the other fire departments to look 11 at such arrangements. I believe it could result in savings 12 to the County by not having to insure firefighters. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah, absolutely. 14 Fantastic. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move that we 16 approve the contract between Kerr County and Hunt Volunteer 17 Fire Department, authorize the County Judge to sign same. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 20 the tendered contract between Kerr County and Hunt Volunteer 21 Fire Department be approved, and County Judge be authorized 22 to sign the same. Any further questions or discussion? All 23 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8-25-03 98 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. The next 3 item is consideration and discussion of the adoption and 4 approval of a Records Archive Fee of $5, adopting such fee 5 as part of the Kerr County budget for Fiscal Year '03-'04 6 and subsequent years, and setting a public hearing on the 7 same. This was placed on -- this was as a result of some 8 recent legislation of the Texas Legislature that allowed not 9 just border counties to impose a $5 Records Archive Fee, but 10 all counties. And, in order to do that, if we're going to 11 impose -- adopt and impose that fee, we've got to adopt it 12 as part of the budget process, and in doing so, we've got to 13 set a public hearing on it. I think we can set a public 14 hearing the same date that we've got the other public 15 hearings set for on the first meeting in September, could we 16 not? 17 MS. PIEPER: September the 8th. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Pieper? Will that be 19 satisfactory? 20 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10:15? 23 MS. PIEPER: What time did you say? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10:15. I move we set the 25 public hearing -- or I move we approve a Records Archive Fee 8-25-03 99 1 of $5, set a public hearing regarding same for September 8th 2 at 10:15. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Does that also include 5 adopting that fee as part of the budget for the ensuing 6 fiscal year and subsequent years? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 10 seconded to adopt and approve Records Archive Fee of $5, 11 adopt it as part of the Kerr County budget for Fiscal Year 12 '03-'04 and subsequent years, and set a public hearing for 13 the same at September 8th, 2003, at 10:15 a.m. Any further 14 question or discussion? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I have a question. 16 What is a records archive fee? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a fee in order to allow 18 you to handle the preservation of your older records. 19 Ms. Pieper could probably give you some more elaboration on 20 that. 21 MS. PIEPER: That is for any records prior to 22 1990. A records archival is all the old records that I have 23 that are maybe handwritten back in the 1800's that we are 24 not allowed to destroy or microfilm or -- it's just another 25 -- a records preservation. 8-25-03 100 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Who pays the fee? 2 MS. PIEPER: The general public. That fee 3 would be assessed on any document that is filed for record, 4 and that fee is only for five years. After five years, it 5 drops automatically by law. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, someone that 7 comes in and files a quitclaim deed would pay an extra $5? 8 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. Do you have 10 any idea how much money that will generate? 11 MS. PIEPER: $60,000, $70,000 a year. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And there's no 13 restriction on how the County can use that? That goes into 14 general funds? 15 MS. PIEPER: No. No, that goes strictly for 16 that records archival. That's all it can be used for. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it frees up -- 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It backs out -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It frees up money in the 20 General Fund to be used for something else. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. That's all. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kind of like E.I.C. 23 Kind of, sort of. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Really. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 8-25-03 101 1 discussion? If not, all in favor of the motion, signify by 2 raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item, 7 consider and discuss approval of the proposed Fiscal Year 8 '03-'04 public officials' salary and set public hearing on 9 the same. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's see. Where are 11 we? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not off Tab 20 now. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 16. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tab 16? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 16. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have we even discussed 17 this yet? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't think so. I 20 thought maybe I -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: No, but there's a requirement 22 that there be a public hearing set, and we've got to give 23 notice of a public hearing not later than the 10th day 24 before the date of the meeting at which it'll be held. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Public hearing on 8-25-03 102 1 what? That the -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On elected officials' 3 salaries. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, we don't know, 5 see, what -- what my point is, seems like to me, you have 6 a -- a public hearing on something that -- that is a 7 document that's laid out before the public to let them look 8 over; you know, here's some -- you know, "They're giving the 9 elected officials a $40,000 salary increase this year," and 10 that specific number is there, and then kind of mull it over 11 and think about it, and then come to the public hearing 12 and -- and talk about it. We -- we haven't -- that's the 13 way I see it. Is that not correct? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the -- the statement 15 about a public hearing is more of a public notice of the 16 setting of -- of those salaries and so forth. That -- that 17 may be somewhat in error, or not clear as to the exact 18 nature, but the law says that -- that when those matters are 19 to be considered, that we must give published notice not -- 20 not later than 10 days before the date that those matters 21 are set to be considered. And if there are any increases, 22 that they -- that they be noted in that notice. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: It may well be that this may 25 be premature. You may want to wait until the next meeting 8-25-03 103 1 to do that, but we've only got a certain time frame window 2 to give that notice, and I think we've -- at a minimum, we 3 need to authorize it, whether or not we're in a position to 4 cause it to be published right now. Obviously, we're not, 5 but I think we have to address that issue. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have we posted the 7 Wednesday meeting yet? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 'Cause it could have 10 been included in that posting, could it not have? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a workshop agenda, and 12 traditionally we don't take any -- any formal action in a 13 workshop environment. I think -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's too late. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, it's already posted 16 anyway. Both Tuesday and the Wednesday workshops have been 17 posted. It's a good possibility we're going to have to be 18 doing some more down the pike. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't see how we can 20 take action. I mean, based on what you read, plus the way 21 it's written, "Consider and discuss approval of proposed 22 public officials' salary." Well, we don't have anything to 23 approve. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That's exactly right. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we can't. 8-25-03 104 1 MR. TOMLINSON: You do have one, the 2 Constable, Precinct 4. Because in -- in budget discussions, 3 you -- 4 MS. PIEPER: I can't hear him. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: It's in the proposed budget 6 to make his salary the same as all other constables. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Except we may change all 8 the constables' salaries. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, yeah, but that -- but 10 that one, I do remember that that was the consensus of the 11 Court. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, gentlemen, for whatever 13 it's worth, that's a heads-up. We got to give notice of any 14 of these increases, and -- and whatever date that it's 15 considered, there's got to be a public notice not later than 16 10 days -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: -- that that matter's going to 19 be considered at that hearing. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think this can be done 21 at our first meeting in September. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Better early than late. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, Judge, can we 24 change -- could we authorize a public hearing -- I'm just 25 asking a question. Could we authorize a public hearing 8-25-03 105 1 on -- on the public officials' salary, if any, for this 2 specific date -- for a specific date? And "if any," 'cause 3 we don't have any yet except the one that Tommy noted. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I'm not certain that we 5 are required to -- like I said, I think the -- the verbiage 6 may be in error, because I don't think we're required to 7 hold a public hearing, but rather publish notice that a 8 matter will be considered at a specific meeting; that the 9 matter of salaries of the elected officials will be 10 considered at a given meeting. So, the verbiage stating 11 public hearing, I think, is -- is inappropriate. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't -- I disagree. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know. I don't 14 know. I think we have to have a public hearing. You have 15 to -- don't you have to have a public hearing if elected 16 officials' salaries change? 17 MS. RECTOR: Whether they change or not, I 18 think you still have to have a public hearing. You have to 19 set the salaries. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: On the budget -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My whole point is, is 22 that we -- we establish what that is going to be. I mean, 23 if we're giving -- you know, if we're giving the elected 24 officials what we'd promised to give them a couple of years 25 ago, you know, if there's going to be a change -- a change, 8-25-03 106 1 we probably need specific numbers in order for the public to 2 have a meeting about. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. The notice requires that 4 if there are any increases, that they be identified under 5 the section of the law that -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Before we do this 7 thing. Before we have a public hearing. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's my point. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe I'm premature. If not, 11 we'll move forward. Next item, consider and discuss 12 approval of proposed budget for '03-'04, set a public 13 hearing. Same place there. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Same place. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Next item, same 16 thing, for the tax rate. I don't think we're there yet 17 either, are we? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not there yet. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. The last item? 20 Commissioner Letz? Discussion with Cheryl Mapston 21 concerning vacant County Extension position, the process of 22 hiring, issues relative to the County Extension Office. 23 That's not set until 1:30. That being the case, we'll stand 24 in recess until 1:30, and we'll reconvene and take up that 25 and the remaining items, and relook at the O.S.S.F. proposed 8-25-03 107 1 rules. 2 (Recess taken from 11:54 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.) 3 - - - - - - - - - - 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come back to 5 order. It's 130. We -- we been in recess shortly before 6 lunch, after having gotten to item 1.22 -- or 1.23, rather, 7 that being a timed item, discussion with Ms. Cheryl Mapston 8 concerning the vacant County Extension position, the process 9 in the hiring and issues relative to that office. 10 Commissioner Letz, I think this is a matter that you 11 requested. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, I asked this to be 13 put on the agenda because, one, I wasn't sure of the process 14 to hire the new Extension Agent. And also, I received 15 questions from the public on that same issue, and thought it 16 would be good, probably, to have Cheryl Mapston come in and 17 explain to us what the process is, and at the same time -- 18 Commissioner Nicholson's looking -- at the same time, 19 explain how that office is supposed to operate from the 20 standpoint of different personnel out there and, you know, 21 who is our lead contact and how the whole office should be 22 working. And I believe you also want to talk a little bit 23 about reorganization at the state level, so I'll turn it 24 over to you. 25 MS. MAPSTON: Okay. 8-25-03 108 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you for coming. 2 MS. MAPSTON: Thank you, Commissioner Letz. 3 We really appreciate the opportunity to be here to tell you 4 a little bit about the restructuring and extension, and then 5 also roles and responsibilities there at the Kerr County 6 Extension Office, as well as the procedure they have for 7 filling the position. But I'd like to thank you for your 8 continued support of the Extension program. It's very vital 9 to our citizens here in the state of Texas, and I just want 10 to go over it very quickly. I think that many times we 11 forget our mission, and I just want to review with you our 12 mission of Extension. It's to provide the quality, relevant 13 outreach, and continuing education programs and services to 14 the people of Texas. It's very simple. It's very short. 15 It's real learning for real life for Texans. 16 And the way we do that is to identify the 17 issues, and then once the issues are identified, our staff 18 works on setting program priorities, mobilizing volunteers, 19 and then actually looking at educational programs where they 20 plan, implement, evaluate, market, and interpret those 21 programs to the public. And we work in terms of outcomes; 22 savings, economically, environmentally, or sometimes perhaps 23 socially, as through our youth program. And recently, we 24 have gone through major restructuring, and this was not as a 25 result of budget cuts that we received on the state level. 8-25-03 109 1 This has been going on for about two years. Two years of 2 studies and committees and task forces have been looking at 3 Extension very carefully, and we realize that we can't 4 continue doing things the way we are now and still be 5 effective. 6 So, effective September 1, we're going 7 through some major changes. And there are three different 8 parts to those changes I'd like to just review briefly. One 9 is, the structure is changing. The processes are changing, 10 and the personnel are changing. And speaking of the 11 structure, my job, as I am right here today, has been 12 eliminated. The District Extension Directors for Family and 13 Consumer Sciences, as well as District Extension Directors 14 for Agriculture, those 24 positions across the state were 15 eliminated, and we have established different positions. We 16 have established one District Extension Administrator in 17 each of our 12 districts, and then we have -- looking at 18 subject matter, we're looking at an Ag Program Director that 19 will serve the region. 20 And, by the way, our region goes from 21 Gonzales to El Paso now, so we have the west region of the 22 state. Also, the north, south, and east and west regions 23 are divided up among the state, and within each one of those 24 regions we'll have what we call a Regional Program Director, 25 and it will be the duty of these people to look very 8-25-03 110 1 carefully at agriculture across the entire region. And then 2 another person will be looking at family and consumer 3 sciences across the entire region, while the third person 4 will be dealing with 4-H and youth development across the 5 region. So, what that does, it frees up what I'm currently 6 doing now, those two -- you know, supervision and 7 programmatic. It's going to divide those out where I will 8 have one line supervision for all the agents in District 10, 9 as District Extension Administrator, which is a little bit 10 different than we've had in the past. 11 Many of you are familiar with my coworker, 12 Darrell Dromgoole, who was the District Extension Director 13 for Ag. He was appointed District Extension Administrator 14 for District 11 in Corpus Christi, so he has moved. And he 15 moved, I guess, the end of July to get his kiddoes in school 16 and get everything settled there. Effective September 1, we 17 will be in completely different roles. So, I know that some 18 of you probably have dealt with Darrell in the -- in working 19 with agriculture, and so now I'll have that responsibility 20 for the entire district as District Administrator. And 21 we've also changed some processes. We've decentralized some 22 of our management functions. We've established budget 23 centers throughout the state for each one of those program 24 areas, and we've also changed our process in filling 25 positions, as well as promotions for County Extension Agents 8-25-03 111 1 through a career level system. So, those are the major 2 changes that we have through processes. 3 And personnel is another area that I'm here 4 to talk about today, and that's -- our goal is to have 5 high-quality employees in every single county in the state 6 of Texas. And that's one thing that's very unique about 7 Extension, is our delivery system. We do have a mechanism 8 out there in every single county to disseminate information, 9 which many groups, organizations, or agencies do not have, 10 so we're very proud of that. We also have placed priority 11 on diversity throughout the state. Our workforce needs to 12 reflect the population of our state, and then also develop 13 resources that will reward those outstanding employees for 14 their outstanding performance in Extension. We want to 15 continue to provide quality, relevant, professional 16 development for those employees as -- as they're placed out 17 there in those counties to work with those people on the 18 needs. 19 And then we want to also cultivate some 20 positive work environments and positive work teams, because 21 we're deemphasizing the individual parts of our program, and 22 we're putting a big emphasis on teamwork on the regional, 23 the district, and the state level. So, these changes will 24 bring about an increase in need for communication all across 25 the state. An increased, I guess, emphasis, you might call 8-25-03 112 1 it, on softening of district and county lines, where we'll 2 be looking at multi-county programs and, in effect, regions 3 rather than just what happens within that county. Also, the 4 coordination of teamwork is going to be of utmost 5 importance, and then there will be a very high level of 6 accountability for the outcomes of those programs. So, 7 that's just a -- in a nutshell, what's been going on for the 8 past two years and some of the changes that would be in 9 effect on September 1. We have recently gone through some 10 reduction in force. Fortunately, Kerr County was not a 11 county that was targeted for reduction, but we did have 12 three positions that were lost within this district. And 13 so, across the state, we have lost positions, both at the 14 county level, the district level, and then the 15 administrative level also, so it's across-the-board. 16 And I'd like to review a little bit about -- 17 and stop me if you have any questions, please; please do 18 feel free to -- a little bit about our structure here in 19 Kerr County. We've been very fortunate to have fine support 20 from the County, excellent facilities, and we've been able 21 to build a good staff, and I'd like to thank you formally 22 for that, because you've helped make that possible. We have 23 one position, which is County Extension Agent-Agriculture, 24 that was recently vacated July 31st by Eddie Holland, and 25 that position is currently available. And I'll talk a 8-25-03 113 1 little bit more about the process after I've reviewed the 2 staff. And then the County Extension Agent for Family and 3 Consumer Sciences is Amy Chapman. And then we have a 4-H 4 Program Assistant, which is funded by the County, and it's 5 supervised by the County Extension Agent, and that's 6 Laurinda Boyd, who works with the Youth Development Program. 7 We also -- yes, sir? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Supervised by which 9 County Extension Agent? 10 MS. MAPSTON: Well, in the past, it has been 11 the Ag Extension Agent. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Does it have to be? Or 13 can it be either one? 14 MS. MAPSTON: It can be either one, because 15 it's not an agriculturally-specific position. That position 16 is more youth development, everything from working with the 17 schools to working with the -- you know, animal science 18 projects to working with different groups and councils and 19 that kind of thing. So, it's not position-specific. During 20 Eddie Holland's work with the Ag Agents' Association -- the 21 National Ag Agents' Association, the Southern Region and 22 also the State, he was tied up for about three years when he 23 was president-elect one year, then president of our national 24 association -- we were very proud that Texas did have the 25 president at that high level -- and then his last year was 8-25-03 114 1 past president. So, during that time, in order for us to 2 support Eddie and to support -- continue to support the Kerr 3 County program, Extension funded a part-time position to 4 handle -- it was basically horticulture questions that 5 really just kind of can eat your time away, being leaves and 6 plants, bugs, critters and spiders and all those kinds of 7 home horticulture needs. 8 And so Extension funded, part-time, Mr. John 9 Coleman, who was -- came in on a part-time basis to work 10 that program, and Mr. Coleman has really taken that program 11 to a high level. He has coordinated Master Gardener courses 12 and trainings and the Pesticide Applicator training, and 13 done a really good job. And I was hating to lose 14 Mr. Coleman after about -- I think he was with us about 20 15 months or so during this time that Eddie was in this 16 leadership position, and his position ended officially 17 July 31st. However, Mr. Coleman is volunteering for our 18 staff, and he wants to continue to provide his services on a 19 volunteer basis to the County. That is a big benefit, and 20 all the homeowners in the county should be very pleased with 21 -- that Mr. Coleman is willing to do that. And he really 22 loves his job. He loves his -- loves the staff out there 23 and working on that. 24 We -- and then also, of course, our full-time 25 secretary, Susan Wright, and then the part-time support 8-25-03 115 1 staff that I understand that will be coordinated along with 2 the person who books the barns. I learned a little bit 3 about y'all's plans for that, and I think that's a great 4 plan, to have someone on-site. That will save travel back 5 and forth, and then it will provide us with the part-time 6 assistance that we need to keep our program rolling. And of 7 those agents there, the Agriculture Agent and the FCS Agent, 8 those are funded, you know, jointly by the County and 9 Extension, and then the Program Assistant is funded only -- 10 and it's not considered a State employee, but a County 11 employee. 12 And, of those two positions for Ag and Family 13 Consumer Sciences, there are roles that those -- those folks 14 play. One is, one agent in every county is considered or 15 named or appointed September 1 as County Coordinator, and 16 the role of that County Coordinator is to serve as a liaison 17 between the County and Extension, and the County and 18 District. And the reason we do that is, one letter goes out 19 to all the County Coordinators in each, you know, county. 20 It's very efficient, and that way we have one person that's 21 the liaison between the Court, and then that person -- not 22 that the other people do not have input into the budget 23 process and some of those administrative functions, but it 24 does give us a key person that we need to go to. 25 And there is no financial incentive to be 8-25-03 116 1 named County Coordinator. It's extra work. Some people 2 enjoy that role; others do not. It is a very important 3 role, and it's the person who would sign off timesheets on 4 the secretary, you know, work with utilities on the county 5 level, making sure bills are paid, you know, all those 6 administrative kinds of things that are done in the County 7 Extension Office. And then an agent is also named 4-H 8 Coordinator, and the 4-H Coordinator is the person -- the 9 one person that's designated within that county staff that 10 receives all information regarding the 4-H and Youth 11 Development Program. That would mean, you know, entries and 12 validations and, you know, all those kinds of information, 13 that would come to that person. It's not that person's job 14 to handle all that, but it's that person's job to maintain 15 communication with the staff, and they're go-to person that 16 we go to for youth development. 17 In the past, Eddie Holland has served in both 18 of those roles. Right now, Amy Chapman is serving as County 19 Coordinator and also 4-H Coordinator, because she's 20 technically our only Extension employee in there. Once 21 positions are filled, then we look at who those people are, 22 you know, and who would do which role the best. And, so, 23 then those are appointed annually, or we -- we send in 24 recommendations, actually, to Chester Fehlis, our Director, 25 and then those positions are appointed by the Director based 8-25-03 117 1 on our recommendations. So, that's how that works. And 2 there is no extra money or extra anything. Little bit of 3 extra work, but some people really enjoy -- you know, each 4 one of those roles takes a different type of person, so 5 that's why we have those -- each of those, and they are the 6 person we go to. Any questions on anything? I know I'm 7 going rather quickly. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is -- maybe you're going 9 to get to this. Is one of the agents appointed as the lead 10 -- I mean, or one of those coordinators, is that the one -- 11 well, I guess, okay, the County Coordinator is, then, the 12 one that we have to work with? 13 MS. MAPSTON: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we have input into 15 that? 16 MS. MAPSTON: Sure, through me. You know, I 17 look for -- you know, when we do that, we try to look for 18 the person that can do the best -- you know, the best job -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 MS. MAPSTON: -- in representing our 21 Extension Office. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You had mentioned 23 Chester Fehlis. What is his title? He's the State Director 24 of the Extension Service? Is that -- 25 MS. MAPSTON: Yes, he is. 8-25-03 118 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And his mother lives 2 in your precinct, so be careful what you say about Chester. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Got a good 4 upbringing. 5 MS. MAPSTON: Good deal. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If your job is being 7 eliminated, Cheryl, where -- what's for you in the future? 8 MS. MAPSTON: I've been appointed the 9 District Extension Administrator in Uvalde, so I will stay 10 there. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And we are in the 12 Uvalde district? 13 MS. MAPSTON: Yes, 21 counties, which goes 14 over to Gonzales, includes Bexar and Travis County, up to 15 Blanco, Fredericksburg, all the way over to Kendall, 16 Edwards, Kinney, and on over. So, 21-county district. And 17 we'll be in the region with District 6 and 7, which includes 18 Fort Stockton area, as well as the San Angelo area. 19 As far as filling the position, I'll go on to 20 that. The position, as it was vacated by Eddie's 21 announcement for retirement, was announced. It was 22 announced as Master's degree preferred, and Bachelor's 23 degree, of course, required. And we're looking for, you 24 know, at least a Master's degree to come in here. Our 25 positions now require that if we hire someone with a 8-25-03 119 1 Bachelor's degree, they will have seven years upon 2 appointment to receive that Master's degree or their 3 position will be terminated. So, that is our encouragement 4 for agents to continue on their education to receive a 5 Master's degree. But the Master's is preferred here, and 6 hopefully we'll be able to do that. The position also 7 requires a degree related to agriculture, natural resources, 8 with experience in horticulture and also livestock 9 production, crops, that kind of thing, economic development 10 work, and work with committees and task forces, you know, a 11 couple of the basic requirements for that position. 12 The positions are now being announced 13 internally. Because of our RIF and our internal movement of 14 employees, we want to make sure that all of our current 15 employees that are experienced have the opportunity to move 16 -- move around the state, so the position was announced 17 initially internally, and we do have applicants for that, 18 and I'd be happy to review those with you. Our applicants 19 have been screened, and I have done a preliminary interview 20 with those applicants. What we would like to do is to have 21 the top few applicants come to the County, to visit with the 22 staff, to ask questions about committees and programming and 23 some of the issues that are going on right here in the 24 county, and then if you would be interested in visiting with 25 any of those -- those applicants, I'd certainly be glad to 8-25-03 120 1 set that up. 2 We currently have -- as of yesterday 3 afternoon, we had three applicants that had applied for the 4 position, so we will be meeting with -- or I will be meeting 5 with our Regional Program Director for Ag, who's located in 6 San Angelo, on Thursday and Friday to take a look at each 7 one of the applications, to take a look at their curriculum 8 vitaes and the resource materials that they have submitted 9 along with their application, and select, you know, one, 10 two, or three applicants to bring forward. So, we'll be 11 looking at that on Friday. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Has it been closed? 13 MS. MAPSTON: Yeah -- well, it really doesn't 14 close. We would accept applicants up to the time it's 15 filled. There is -- there used to be, when that one came 16 out, a 10-day period where we would not hire until at least 17 10 days, and that is going back to only five days from when 18 the positions are announced, because we are looking at an 19 online application that will make the application process 20 much more efficient and quick, very quick to do. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you don't anticipate 22 any more than the three? 23 MS. MAPSTON: No, I don't. But there may be. 24 But not that -- you know, not that I know of. So, that's 25 where we are on the position. 8-25-03 121 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Do all of these three have -- 2 have the Master's degree requirement? 3 MS. MAPSTON: Yes, they do. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At what point -- I mean, 6 I guess, what's the timeline on getting the person into that 7 position? 8 MS. MAPSTON: Just as soon as we can move 9 forward. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, if you meet this 11 Thursday with -- and after that, -- 12 MS. MAPSTON: Thursday and Friday. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- those applicants will 14 be available to come to Kerr County and meet with us? 15 MS. MAPSTON: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we chose. 17 MS. MAPSTON: And if you have some potential 18 dates that you might like to do that, I'd be glad to take 19 those with me, because I would like to coordinate those with 20 -- I'd like for our staff to begin to meet with them also at 21 that time, and just have one trip over. So, I'd be glad to 22 take some possible dates. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Would it be possible for you 24 to share the resumes of those individuals that you presently 25 have? 8-25-03 122 1 MS. MAPSTON: Certainly, mm-hmm. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I personally would like 4 to, you know, look at the resumes and -- and have an 5 opportunity to meet with the applicants. 6 MS. MAPSTON: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know how the rest 8 of the Court feels. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm sure Commissioner 4 has 10 seen the light and has decided that the Extension Service is 11 a much more important function -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe not. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Am I making an unwarranted 14 assumption here, Commissioner? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I -- for your 16 benefit, I needed to better understand the value of the 17 services provided by the -- the Extension Services, and I 18 came to see that really quick. But what the rest of the 19 Court failed to understand, my real issue was whether or not 20 supporting that financially is a proper function of county 21 government, and that issue remains unresolved. But it 22 sounds like it's a little one-sided up here, so it probably 23 won't be a major stumbling block for you. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would the next 25 Commissioners Court meeting -- is that time frame too long? 8-25-03 123 1 Too short? That's the 8th. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, that would be 3 fine. That's pretty quick. Meetings are -- just because of 4 the calendar, I mean, September 8th is right around the 5 corner. 6 MS. MAPSTON: That would work for me. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Would it? So, like -- 8 like, in the afternoon, after -- after our meeting is over? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, I think -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Something like that? 11 Or do you want to do it in a formal meeting? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would rather, probably, 13 just do it informally, personally. I mean -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would too. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- if they're going to 16 come up, meet the staff, maybe we can just, you know, have, 17 like, a 2 o'clock -- or 2:00 to 3:00 or something like that, 18 we could come back by, and anyone else can come by too. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Get out under the 20 pecan tree, do a little spit and whittling kind of thing. 21 MS. MAPSTON: I'll work on scheduling that, 22 but that looks like it would work -- work for me. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. The -- I guess the 24 County Coordinator role, whoever that person is, between the 25 two, that's who is, I guess, quote, in charge of the office 8-25-03 124 1 from our standpoint? 2 MS. MAPSTON: Some counties -- well, not 3 really as a supervisor of -- of, you know, the agents, but 4 of the support staff. They would be responsible for, you 5 know, signing timesheets and job descriptions and doing 6 performance appraisals. You know, not that they do just 7 that, you know, on their own; they would be charged with 8 coordinating that with the entire staff to make sure that 9 those functions are done, such as performance appraisals of 10 support staff, any requests for salary increases for support 11 staff members, but not over the other agents. The agents in 12 that county would be considered equal. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Our two agents are equal? 14 MS. MAPSTON: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But will the County 16 Coordinator -- let me look at my notes here -- the 4-H 17 Program Director, Coordinator, whatever the term is for that 18 position, they will be assigned to one of the agents, and 19 that may or may not be the same one that is our liaison? 20 MS. MAPSTON: Right. It could be the same 21 one or different. And that's the person who would get, for 22 example, information from our office on due dates, things 23 that are due. You know, they would be responsible for 24 making sure that that coordination is taking place between 25 the clubs, the County, the District, and the State. 8-25-03 125 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Would that same individual be 2 the -- be the immediate supervisor of the actual 4-H Program 3 Coordinator in Kerr County? 4 MS. MAPSTON: That would probably be the 5 best -- yes, the best thing. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Is the 4-H Program Coordinator 7 actually an Extension Agent? 8 MS. MAPSTON: No. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 'Cause I think there's 10 been some confusion about that. 11 MS. MAPSTON: No, they are not considered -- 12 they're considered, like, County 4-H Program Assistants. 13 Their title is a little bit different among the counties, 14 but no, they're not considered an agent position. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So the Court -- the 4-H 17 Coordinator also reports to an agent? 18 MS. MAPSTON: Yes. Yes. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more questions of 20 Ms. Mapston? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- I don't mean 22 to dwell on the 4-H Coordinator. I'm just trying to figure 23 out how this works. I think, after six years, I probably 24 should have asked this maybe five, six years ago. But, 25 okay, you have the -- the Agent and the Coordinator. The 8-25-03 126 1 Agent's kind of a County-slash-State employee, but the 2 Coordinator is a County employee? 3 MS. MAPSTON: Correct. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the 4-H person is 6 not a County employee? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 4-H Coordinator is a 8 County employee. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. And the Amy 10 Chapman person is a State employee? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And County employee. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And County. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's joint. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Both of us make the 15 salary up. 16 MS. MAPSTON: And those 4-H Program 17 Coordinators are different, you know, from other -- other 18 counties. They might be specifically agriculture. They 19 might be specifically family, consumer science or urban 20 outreach or -- you know, they can have different types of 21 titles. This one has pretty much done, basically, animal 22 science, but there is room for schoolwork, for work with 23 formation of other clubs throughout the community. And I 24 think during the time that -- you know, that our 4-H 25 Coordinator was absent, I think that maybe our position may 8-25-03 127 1 have taken on a little bit higher responsibilities than 2 their job really required in some cases. So, once we get a 3 team in there, we need to really sit down as a group and 4 look at strengths of each one of those individuals and who 5 can best carry out those responsibilities. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do 4-H Coordinators 7 typically serve a single county, or in some instances, do 8 they serve multiple counties? 9 MS. MAPSTON: In District 10, they're all 10 single-county. There may be some across the state that go 11 across county lines, but we don't have any. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, you might want 13 to ask if there's a possibility that someone in the audience 14 might have a question or two. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I think you just did. 16 MR. DITTMAR: I was curious, the three 17 applicants, these are only from the internal search? Has 18 the selection process been opened up outside the Extension 19 avenues, or does that -- how does that work? Or is that a 20 possibility? 21 MS. MAPSTON: There is if there are no 22 internal applicants; however, we have -- we do have a slate 23 of applicants internally. 24 MR. DITTMAR: Okay. I guess I -- in my mind, 25 that was I was expecting more than three applicants for the 8-25-03 128 1 position. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would you like to 3 apply, doctor? 4 MR. DITTMAR: Seems like a plan. Working for 5 the County ought to be fun. (Laughter.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I need to talk to you after 7 this meeting's over, doctor. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. I'm not sure I 9 heard your answer. So, if there are applicants within the 10 system, then you don't open it up to the public? 11 MS. MAPSTON: I could if I felt those 12 applicants were not feasible applicants, but when you have 13 -- any time you can have some internal applicants that have 14 been successful in other county programs, it's much easier 15 to take those applicants rather than someone, many times, 16 off the street. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I was -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody have any other 19 questions? 20 MR. DITTMAR: Back to clarifying with the 21 issue on the -- and I may be getting 4-H Coordinator and 22 program -- Youth Program Leader confused, but -- but the -- 23 and tell me if I'm wrong. The Program Leader is a County 24 employee. How -- what -- where do they fall in the 25 hierarchy of your Extension? I mean, are they under your 8-25-03 129 1 jurisdiction, or are they under the County's jurisdiction 2 only? In other words, who's their boss? 3 MS. MAPSTON: Whoever is assigned to them on 4 the county level. 5 MR. DITTMAR: On the county level. So -- so, 6 the -- 7 MS. MAPSTON: So I would not supervise that 8 person. 9 MR. DITTMAR: You would not supervise that 10 person. 11 MS. MAPSTON: I would be sure they -- they 12 are supervised and they do have -- you know, they're getting 13 performance appraisals. 14 MR. DITTMAR: So, their set of rules or 15 guidelines that they operated under would be through 16 Extension -- through the County Extension Agent, whether it 17 be the Ag, Consumer Science, and then, because they are dual 18 employees of the County and the State, they are actually -- 19 that particular position is governed by the County, more or 20 less? 21 (Ms. Mapston nodded.) 22 MR. DITTMAR: But they are operating under 23 the guidelines of the -- 24 MS. MAPSTON: Of the Extension Service, 25 right. That's a good explanation. 8-25-03 130 1 MR. DITTMAR: Well, okay. But that's -- 2 that's -- you know, it's a little fuzzy in everybody's mind, 3 I think. 4 (Discussion off the record.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As usual, Cheryl, 7 you're dynamic. 8 MS. MAPSTON: Thanks for having me today. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you for being here. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. Appreciate 11 it. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go back to Item 14 and 13 complete any action, if we're going to take any action, on 14 consideration and discussion of the proposed O.S.S.F. Rules 15 and Regulations for Kerr County, as recommended by joint 16 committee, and setting a public hearing on the same. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion to 18 approve the submitted rules for O.S.S.F. facilities for the 19 purpose of setting a public hearing regarding same for 20 September 8th at 10 a.m. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 23 seconded that -- that the proposed O.S.S.F. Rules, as 24 revised and now presented, as recommended by the joint 25 committee, and that we set a public hearing for same on 8-25-03 131 1 September 8th of 2003 at 10 a.m. Any further questions or 2 discussion? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just a comment. For 4 public hearing only at this point. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Section 13, as 8 amended, still has the error of not having the apostrophe in 9 the Commissioners Court. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, lord. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's two ways to read 12 that, I believe. Some think there should be an apostrophe S 13 and some don't. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which line are you 15 on? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's two places in 17 Section 13. The -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Second sentence and the last 19 sentence -- I mean last line. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Our forms and 21 correspondence include the apostrophe. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Should be S, 23 apostrophe. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hell, we can't do this 25 without the apostrophe. 8-25-03 132 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We don't want to send 2 it back again? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Don't want to send it 4 back again. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So you know what 6 you're voting on? 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let's vote. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions? 9 Comments? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 10 your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Okay. We 15 now go to the -- is there any need for us to go into any 16 executive or closed session for any of the matters listed? 17 Okay. Well, we'll forego that. Down to the approval 18 agenda. Payment of bills. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move that we 20 pay our bills. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 23 seconded that we pay the bills as presented by the Auditor. 24 Any further questions? Discussion? Any particular item 25 that you want to be singled out? All in favor of the 8-25-03 133 1 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget 6 amendments. We have a few here. Budget Amendment Number 1. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: Budget Amendment Number 1 is 8 for County Court at Law, 198th District Court. It's for 9 $6,353. It's actually to recognize the -- the quarterly 10 payment for Indigent Defense from the State, to increase 11 these two budgets for County Court at Law by $3,923.50 and 12 the 198th Court, Court-Appointed Attorney line item, by 13 $2,429.50. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move the budget 15 amendment. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 18 we approve Budget Amendment Number 1. Any questions or 19 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 20 your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 25 Amendment Request Number 2. 8-25-03 134 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 2 is from the County 2 Attorney. His request is to move $1,600 into Books, 3 Publications, and Dues, with $1,000 from Overtime, $300 from 4 Maintenance Contracts, and $300 from Lease Copier. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Move to approve. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 8 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 2. Any discussion 9 or questions? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Can you 11 tell by your paperwork there, Tommy, what kind of 12 publications and dues and books? 13 MR. TOMLINSON: I have a bill from Westlaw 14 Group charges for $515.30. I think he anticipates another 15 invoice. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Isn't there Westlaw on 17 the computer program? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that very well may be 19 what this -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what this is? 21 Is this pockets parts, or -- $1,600's a lot. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: All it says is Westlaw Group, 23 Westlaw charges, so I'm assuming that that's for the 24 subscription to -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: C.D.'s? 8-25-03 135 1 MR. TOMLINSON: C.D.'s. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Computer -- yeah, computer. I 3 don't think that's hard-copy stuff -- hard-bound. Any 4 further questions or discussion? All in favor of the 5 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Budget Amendment Request 10 Number 3. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: This is for the Tax Office. 12 The request is to transfer $127 to Bonds and Insurance from 13 Machine Repairs. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 18 we approve Budget Amendment Request Number 4. Any further 19 question or discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Three. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Correct, it is Number 3. I've 22 already flipped the page. Budget Amendment Request Number 23 3. Any further question or discussion? All in favor of 24 Budget Amendment Request Number 3 being approved, signify by 25 raising your right hand. 8-25-03 136 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 5 Amendment Request Number 4. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 4 is from Justice of 7 the Peace, Precinct 3. The request is to transfer $88.71 8 into Conference line item out of Software Maintenance. I 9 have a -- a bill attached to that for a hand check payable 10 to -- to J.P. 3 for $166.80. It's for reimbursement for a 11 conference. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So -- so, the budget 13 amendment was -- she's already -- already gone to the 14 conference and already paid, and now we're reimbursing? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. It was August the 6th 16 and 7th, the Texas Justice Court Training Center in Corpus. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okey-dokey. I move we 18 pay the bill. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 21 seconded that we pay the bill. Commissioner, would you 22 enlighten me on that? Do you mean the -- are you approving 23 the budget amendment and authorizing a hand check? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay, Budget Amendment 8-25-03 137 1 Request Number 4 be approved and a hand check in the sum of 2 $166.80 to J.P. 3, Kari O'Dell, be issued. Any further 3 questions or discussion? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait just a second. 5 $166.80? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the hand check. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: That's for the check. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, very good. Very 9 good. I'm not questioning, Judge. I just want to make 10 sure. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 12 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 13 your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 18 Amendment Request Number 5. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 5 is for the County 20 Jail and -- and the Sheriff's Department. The request is to 21 transfer $188.80 into the Jail Employee Medical Exam line 22 item, $169.61 to the Jail Vehicle Maintenance line item, 23 $740.36 into the Sheriff's Office Investigation Expenses 24 line item, and $462.15 into Radio Repairs for the Sheriff's 25 Office, and $53.81 into Vehicle Repairs and Maintenance for 8-25-03 138 1 the Sheriff's Office. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the 3 difference -- 4 MR. TOMLINSON: From -- transfer from 5 Software Maintenance in the Sheriff's Office, for the total 6 amount of $1,614.73. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is the difference 8 between the two Vehicle Maintenance lines? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: One's for the jail, one's for 10 the Sheriff's Office. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, bingo. So moved. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 14 seconded that Budget Amendment Request Number 5 be approved. 15 Any questions or comments? Sheriff, the Radio Repair, are 16 these part of that new radio system that just came online 17 last year? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. The radio system 19 that came online, that 900-something thousand dollars did 20 not replace radios. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay? That's all the 23 infrastructure, the towers, the microwaves, all the -- the 24 dispatch consoles, okay? It did all that, but the actual -- 25 either the hand-held radio or the car radio, it did not 8-25-03 139 1 replace those. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. You got my point, 3 whether or not we had a bunch of brand-new radios going bad. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. No, what we had 5 is these radios, except for the hand-held ones -- the car 6 radios are replaced every time we get cars, okay, 7 automatically. That's part of the car budget, so we keep 8 good, updated radios. The only ones that we have problems 9 with some of them are some of the hand-held radios. You 10 still have to do some repairs on them. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: And that's the repair -- the 12 radios upon which the repair item is in question? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's correct. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any further questions 15 or discussion? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Rusty, if 17 we only buy you one car, will you repair your own radios 18 from now on? That's a pretty good deal. I'm trying, 19 fellas. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's going to give 21 the old, beat-up radios to the constables. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I got a box full of them 23 out there we can let them go through. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 25 discussion on Budget Amendment Request Number 5? All in 8-25-03 140 1 favor, signify by raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Number 6. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Budget Amendment Number 6 is 7 for the Jail. The request is to transfer $3,554.76 from 8 Prisoner Medical to Operating Supplies. I have with this 9 a -- the need for a hand check for $7,006 to Identix. It's 10 for the maintenance renewal on the Live Scan scanning -- 11 fingerprint scanning system. It's -- the contract is from 12 August of '03 through July of '04. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What is it? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: It's the maintenance on the 16 scanning equipment for fingerprinting. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 19 seconded to approve Budget Amendment Request Number 6 and 20 authorize issuance of a hand check in the sum of $7,006 to 21 Identix. Any questions or discussion? Sheriff, is this the 22 item that -- 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You and I talked -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- we were talking about, 25 where the oil on the hands -- that they failed to tell you 8-25-03 141 1 about up front? 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And you and I had put it 5 in the budget for next year. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Uh-huh. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But we've got to take 8 care of -- this is the first year we have to deal with it 9 ourselves. And it was -- the original contract they wanted 10 was a little over $11,000, right at $12,000, and we cut that 11 back by saying no, only give us 8:00 to 5:00 Monday through 12 Friday, so if we had -- we don't want 24-hour service. And 13 if it goes down, we'll do the ink part until they can get 14 somebody up here. But this benefits all the -- the 15 departments, you know, because all the CJIS, all the hand 16 forms we used to have to do, it takes away all that; it's 17 all done electronically right to Austin. It helps identify 18 unidentified people also, at the same time. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: And, if I understand -- excuse 20 me, were you through? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, go ahead. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: And if I understood you 23 correctly, as I recall our conversation about this item, as 24 a result of -- of this coming around, you've identified a 25 more particular way to deal with this equipment to try and 8-25-03 142 1 keep this from happening more frequently, if I recall 2 correctly? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, keeping the 4 repairs from happening. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's what I'm talking 6 about. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. Yeah, for 8 maintenance. Because we did -- when the system was first 9 installed, they recommended you use a corn oil on dry -- 10 some people had very minute sweat glands, so their hands are 11 too dry, and they recommended a regular corn husk oil. And 12 the more you use it, we pointed out to them, the yellower it 13 turns the actual glass that you're rolling the prints on, 14 that are magnified and caught by the computer and sent off. 15 And once that starts turning yellow, then your print quality 16 goes down, DPS can't read them when they get them. So, you 17 know, Identix is changing their whole deal on what they 18 recommend to use, you know, to provide that moisture in some 19 people's fingers. But one of the main things -- and it 20 saved us having this this year -- was that there was a 21 scanner that went out in that computer, okay? In that 22 system. The main scanner, and that's a $25,000 piece of 23 equipment. And they came up and replaced -- replaced it the 24 next day at no charge. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That was under warranty, 8-25-03 143 1 wasn't it? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How long does the 3 warranty last? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why we have this 5 maintenance deal. That will do the same thing. It also 6 pays for all those parts. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whether it's under 9 warranty or not. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 11 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 12 your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 17 Amendment Request Number 7. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 7 is for Justice of 19 the Peace, Precinct 2. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: The purchase of a monitor for 22 replacement for computer for $219.98. And her request is to 23 transfer the $219.98 from Capital Outlay out of 24 Nondepartmental into Operating Equipment in that budget. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 8-25-03 144 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 4 Budget Amendment Request Number 7 be approved. Any further 5 question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 6 by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 11 Amendment Request Number 8. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 8 is between the 198th 13 and 216th District Courts. The request is to transfer 14 $44.50 to Books, Publications, and Dues for the 216th Court, 15 $610.18 Court-Appointed Attorneys for the 216th Court, $100 16 for Books, Publications, and Dues for the 198th court, 17 $1,603.57 Court-Appointed Attorney line item in the 198th 18 Court, $452.30 to Special District Judge line item for the 19 198th Court, $1,350 for Special Court Reporter line item in 20 the 198th Court. The total of $4,209.55 from Court 21 Transcripts out of the 216th District Court. Along with 22 that, I have two -- I'm requesting two checks -- hand 23 checks, one to Paula Loetz for $1,300 for -- for court 24 reporting services, and the other to Murray -- Judge Murray 25 Jordan for $452.30 for judicial expenses. 8-25-03 145 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy, I thought 2 Ms. Loetz was the -- was the permanent 198th -- 3 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, she's -- 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Linton Tomlin is the 6 permanent, the court reporter. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 10 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 8 and authorize 11 issuance of hand checks to Paula Loetz for $1,300 and Murray 12 Jordan for 452.30. Any further question or discussion? All 13 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Budget Amendment Request 9. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 9 is -- is for Justice 19 of the Peace, Precinct 4. The request is to transfer 20 $138.68 to Office Supplies, $55 to Machine Repairs, totaling 21 $193.68 from the Conference line item. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Move to approve. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's made and seconded 25 that Budget Amendment Request Number 9 be approved. Any 8-25-03 146 1 further questions or discussion? All in favor of the 2 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 7 Amendment Request 10. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 10 is for Justice of 9 the Peace, Precinct 2. This request is to transfer $113.70 10 to the Part-Time Salary line item, $50 from FICA expense, 11 $2.50 from Postage, $40.05 from Books, Publications, and 12 Dues, $21.15 from Lease Copier. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 16 Budget Amendment Request Number 10 be approved. Any 17 question or discussion? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Tommy, the -- 19 the FICA expense, is that on the -- this part-time salary? 20 MR. TOMLINSON: The -- in the budget, the 21 FICA expense was calculated on the amount budgeted, but I 22 think she -- when her clerk -- there was a problem with her 23 using -- having to need more part-time salary than was 24 budgeted. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 8-25-03 147 1 MR. TOMLINSON: And I -- am I close there? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 4 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 5 your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 10 Amendment Request Number 11. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 11 is for the 12 Sheriff's Department. This -- this budget amendment 13 actually increases the budget by $713.25, and it's to 14 reflect a receipt of that amount from the Bureau of Justice 15 Assistance, Bulletproof Vest Program. We increase the 16 Operating Equipment line item in the Sheriff's Department by 17 that same amount. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 21 Budget Amendment Request Number 11 be approved. Any 22 question or discussion? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Rusty, will 24 we see this again next year? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. In fact, we -- 8-25-03 148 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you buy new vests 2 every year? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We have already been 4 notified that we received this year in the grant program 5 $23,000, okay? Now, it's a matching fund deal, and it will 6 be about $7,000, a little bit more, each year. And we use 7 that over the next three years to help pay for new vests. 8 In the budget, I already put a matching $7,000 in there for 9 this next year. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a fifty-fifty match. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's a fifty-fifty match 12 that we can get every year, but we got it this year. They 13 talked about only doing it once every three years, so we got 14 enough to cover three years. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Bottom line is, we're using 16 somebody else's money for an obligation we would be obliged 17 to honor anyway. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Very true. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Bingo. Any questions -- any 20 further question or discussion? All in favor of Budget 21 Amendment Request No. 11, signify by raising your right 22 hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 8-25-03 149 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget 2 Amendment Request Number 12. 3 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 12 is for Juvenile 4 Probation, for $481.17, and it actually is to increase the 5 Alternate Housing budget by -- by that amount, in relation 6 to a reimbursement of the $481 from CRC Health Corporation. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I didn't understand 8 that. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, it's funds that are 10 not -- that we didn't anticipate, and that we -- that we 11 received from -- from -- it's a comprehensive -- these 12 people run an addiction program. We had a payment from them 13 for $481.17, so we're increasing the revenues by that 14 amount, and correspondingly, we're increasing Alternate 15 Housing by that amount. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 19 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 12. Any further 20 question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 21 by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget 8-25-03 150 1 Amendment Request Number 13. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: This -- this request is -- is 3 for Juvenile Probation as a result of a Juvenile Board 4 meeting -- I forget the date now. It was August the 4th, I 5 believe. We need -- we have a need to increase the Attorney 6 Ad Litem Fee line item in the Juvenile Probation budget by 7 $8,780, and to increase the Alternate Housing line item for 8 the Juvenile Probation budget for $63,693. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where do the funds 10 come from? 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, we have -- we need to 12 declare an emergency and increase the budget by these 13 amounts. I have -- along with that, I do -- I have a stack 14 of bills that are unpaid right now that -- that if this is 15 approved, we need to make payment on. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm going to have to 17 really stretch my mind here for just a couple of minutes to 18 see where -- see how this is an emergency. Y'all go ahead 19 and visit, and I'll work on that part. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, it's a big 21 number. Help me understand it. Does that mean we 22 miscalculated the budget by that much? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: The -- the Attorney Ad Litem 24 Fee line item is -- is simply a miscalculation in the budget 25 by not -- for '02-'03. Right now, there's -- the budget 8-25-03 151 1 balance is zero, and -- and I anticipate, judging on the 2 history of this year, per month, that we'll need the $8,780 3 to complete the year through September, and including any 4 bills that we get in October and November that were incurred 5 through September the 30th. The $63,693 is for -- for 6 housing for juvenile offenders, not only in Kerr County, but 7 in other facilities that -- that are prescribed by the 8 Court. There -- we have -- Kerr County has juvenile 9 offenders in various programs throughout the state that 10 have -- that I understand have capabilities that match the 11 needs of a child. And so there's -- in fact, in the -- we 12 have bills to Hays County, Tom Green County, to Gulf Coast 13 Trade Center, and a detention facility called Ever Change, 14 so we have total billings here of -- for juvenile housing 15 for $61,744, so that -- I mean, that's as good as I can do, 16 I think, for -- for why -- why we need it. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Again, I heard what 18 you said, but is -- does this mean that a year ago, we 19 underestimated these costs by $65,000? 20 (Mr. Tomlinson nodded.) 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And, Judge, does "ad 22 litem" mean the same thing as "court-appointed"? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, it does. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, are these out of 8-25-03 152 1 your court? Out of -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I would say the vast majority 3 of them are out of my court. There may be -- I don't think 4 -- no, I don't think any of them are out of the 198th. I 5 think they're all out of my court. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: All out of the county 7 juvenile court. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm kind of searching for 9 why there's such a big difference, and I'm wondering if it 10 is a new judge coming in, if it's different dealings with 11 juveniles, possibly. I mean, is that part of the reason? 12 Or was it -- because, I mean, I would think that we'd budget 13 basically the same as the prior year. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: We did. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we're spending a lot 16 more. I wonder if it's because of -- 17 MR. TOMLINSON: We're using all the state 18 money possible for -- for this purpose. In fact, all the -- 19 all of the state aid money that's -- I think it totals 20 approximately $116,000. Almost 80 percent of that is for 21 alternate housing. There's no salaries or anything taken 22 out of that state money. And so, I mean, this is only a 23 part of it. And we have -- we have other money from the 24 state that we also use for -- for alternate housing. I 25 mean, I look at this as somewhat like court-appointed 8-25-03 153 1 attorneys in -- in the District Court. It's one of those 2 things that's hard to put your finger on, and -- and at 3 budget time, it's -- it's really an educated estimate of 4 what -- you know, what it's going to be. You know, we've 5 wrestled with this with District Court already, and -- and 6 in this budget process. So, essentially, I think -- I think 7 it's the same thing. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm wondering whether 9 or not this will continue after the Juvenile Detention 10 Facility expansion is complete. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I think -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, to the extent that 13 they're Kerr County juveniles, that's going to depend upon 14 the activity amongst those particular juveniles. The -- the 15 expansion hopefully will -- won't be all Kerr County money 16 being used to fill that up. But, as I said earlier today, 17 preadjudication -- when a child goes into detention, it's 18 costing Kerr County $83 a day. You know, Rusty can hold his 19 prisoners at $37 a day, but because of -- because of some 20 requirements of T.J.P.C., you've got to have certain other 21 kinds of programs and -- and things available, so the cost 22 there is $83 a day currently, and that's preadjudication. 23 Post-adjudication is higher than that. But merely placing a 24 child in -- in detention -- and you've got to hear those 25 cases within 10 business days in order to keep them 8-25-03 154 1 detained. It's not a matter of just putting them out there 2 and -- and walking off and leaving them. A lot of that 3 expense is incurred where you find what we call placement 4 for these young people that -- that need to be placed 5 outside the home, and they're placed in a boot camp 6 environment or they're placed in some specialized facility 7 to address particular needs. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Like the drug 9 rehab-type thing? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: There's some that -- some that 11 are drug and alcohol-related. There are some that deal 12 with -- some that have other special needs or requirements. 13 And when -- when you send one off there, boot camps run 14 about -- what, about $2,800 a month, I believe? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: That's approximate, yes. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: You get a few in boot camp and 17 a few in detention, and you can see how that will get away 18 from you in a hurry. The bad news is, it adds up. The 19 worst news is that when I'm considering what to do with 20 juveniles and the Probation Department is making 21 recommendations and making placements, that I approve, into 22 a facility that's going to cost Kerr County some money, I 23 got to build a Chinese wall. My consideration at that point 24 in time needs to be what's in the best interests of that 25 child, not what the cost to Kerr County is. And if you 8-25-03 155 1 think that's not tough, come sit in this chair for a while. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, do you have 3 an opinion about whether this -- whether or not this 4 additional cost is related to you taking a different 5 approach than Judge Henneke took? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: It's hard to say. It's 7 possible that some of it may be, but a lot of this 8 placement, I work off of the efforts that the Probation 9 Department makes in -- in ascertaining these various places 10 that they can be placed outside the home, and that hasn't -- 11 that hasn't really changed. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or it could be just 13 simply an increase in numbers. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, as soon as we get 15 through here, gentlemen, I -- I've got some of those to do 16 this afternoon. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we approve -- 18 declare an emergency and approve Budget Amendment -- 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- 13. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Along with that, I want you 22 to approve these checks to the -- to these places, if you 23 will. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And approving hand checks 25 to -- 8-25-03 156 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Hand checks to -- well, it's 2 to -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: If you'll give me that list, 4 Tommy. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 7 seconded that Budget Amendment Request Number 13 be approved 8 on the basis of an emergency, and that hand checks be 9 approved to Ever Change in the sum of $18,312, Gulf Coast 10 Trade Center in the sum of $3,375, Hays County Treasurer in 11 the sum of $5,429, Tom Green County Treasurer, $3,355, and 12 Kerr County Juvenile Facility for $31,273.16. Any further 13 questions or discussion? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: And that's for the attorneys. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The hand checks in connection 16 with the attorney's fees in Budget Amendment Request Number 17 13: Amos Barton, $50; Philip Jacobs, $275; Edward Toll, 18 $150; Rex Emerson, $100; Fred Henneke, $150; Charles King, 19 $462.50. Any further question or discussion? All in favor 20 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Do we 25 have any late bills, Mr. Auditor? 8-25-03 157 1 MR. TOMLINSON: I have one. I have a bill 2 from -- actually, it's a letter requesting funds from City 3 of Kerrville by -- it's referencing Kerr County matching 4 funds for the Community Recycle Center for $4,500 -- $4,500 5 for the 2002-2003 budget year. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it budgeted in the 7 budget? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, it's in our budget. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The item that -- I have a 12 motion and a second to approve the late bill to City of 13 Kerrville in the sum of $4,500 for the Recycle Facility 14 matter. Any questions or discussion? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. I'm recalling 16 our discussions in the budget hearings where we concluded 17 that we have a contract, and that any -- any additional 18 needs under that contract be paid for by the City of 19 Kerrville. Even though this is budgeted, it appears that it 20 would be a -- a deviation or a violation of the contract to 21 pay for it. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I think, without modifying the 23 contract, we might be in violation of the law if we were to 24 approve it. That's my personal opinion. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Have we spent before 8-25-03 158 1 like this? I don't recall. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: I think we did. And I'm not 3 sure what year. Don't hold me to that, 'cause I -- 4 sometimes I don't remember yesterday, so -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, either way, I mean, 6 I think -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm in 8 agreement. The contract's pretty clear. And, you know, 9 until you recently brought it up at our -- our visit with 10 the City, I didn't -- I wasn't aware that it was worded that 11 way. But now that I'm aware of it, I really think that we 12 need to live by the contract. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- that particular item 14 that they're referring to, they'd indicated in our budget 15 workshop materials that they had not yet asked for that 16 money, but they would be, and my clear recollection was it 17 was for an improvement. It was something that was, in my 18 opinion, covered by the lease as clearly the obligation of 19 the lessee, which is the City. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does -- does our 21 County Attorney have an opinion on that? Or have we -- have 22 we approached them on that? Should we hold this bill until 23 he has time to review that? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I have not obtained an opinion 25 from the County Attorney. I've not requested one, very 8-25-03 159 1 frankly. It was so clear to me, I didn't think we needed 2 to, but if you think we ought to submit it over there, we'll 3 be happy to do it. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I think it would 5 be kind of -- kind of wise, so we can all be clear. I mean, 6 like I said early this morning, I met a lawyer one time. 7 That's about the extent of my deal. But -- and then when 8 that -- when our lawyer comes in and says, "Your contract 9 reads this and this and this," then it's on him. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know what impact 11 the fact that we, you know, budgeted for it has, but I 12 think -- I mean, I think I support your idea to defer to the 13 County Attorney, because historically we've not relied on 14 the County Judge for legal opinions. But it's certainly 15 given frequently -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what I was 17 trying to say. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll withdraw my 19 second. Refer it to the County Attorney. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: You really can't -- from the 21 letter, it doesn't spell out -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: What it's for. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: -- what it's for exactly. 24 So, Judge, you know, based on my memory of our budget 25 workshops is the reason I brought it to -- to the Court. 8-25-03 160 1 JUDGE TINLEY: So, we take no action on this 2 item, gentlemen? The motion's been withdrawn, and refer it 3 to the County Attorney for his review and -- and advice? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Works for me. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We'll be back in 7 session in five minutes? No, just -- I'm just joking. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other late bills? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean, it is that 10 clear, I think. It is that clear. You can sit in that 11 chair and read that thing and decide right -- right this 12 moment. I'm not asking you to do that, but I think it's 13 that clear. 14 MR. FEARY: I appreciate that. We will do 15 it. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He doesn't often 17 practice law, but -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. But I 19 am today, buddy, and you're all guilty. That's a judge, 20 isn't it? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Monthly reports. I 22 have presented to me monthly reports from Justice of the 23 Peace, Precinct 1, Justice of the Peace, Precinct 3, and the 24 District Clerk. Do I have a motion to accept these monthly 25 reports as presented? 8-25-03 161 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded, 4 monthly reports as indicated and as presented be approved. 5 Any question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 6 signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Do we have 11 any reports from any of you gentlemen? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll see you tomorrow. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a report, isn't it? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As the Govern-nator 16 says, "Hasta la vista, baby." 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We have something -- 18 we have something in the back of the room. 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: Do you want to do these now? 20 Or do you want to wait till next meeting? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What is that? Those 22 are on the -- 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: The two bid proposals that 24 came in this morning. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why don't we get them out 8-25-03 162 1 of the way? 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: Do you want to go ahead and 3 get them out of the way? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, we'll go back to Item 5 Number 8 on the agenda, to consider and discuss proposals 6 for electrical, plumbing, HVAC -- I think the only bids we 7 got were for electrical and -- and plumbing. Those were 8 referred earlier to the Maintenance Supervisor for his 9 review and -- and report back to the Court. What is your 10 report? 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, I've reviewed them, and 12 they're both within the acceptable range of the -- as far as 13 costs. I visited with both entities, and they've assured me 14 that the response time would be acceptable. And if not, 15 well, they understand I have to call someone else. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: And any excess costs under the 17 contract there, we require -- 18 MR. HOLEKAMP: He signed it. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: So, I -- I recommend that we 21 accept both of those. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: The plumbing bid is from 23 Whelan, and the electrical -- 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes. Whelan Plumbing and 25 Guadalupe Electric. 8-25-03 163 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I make a motion that we 2 accept the bids for electrical and plumbing contractors as 3 submitted -- select all bids. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 6 seconded that the -- that the bids as submitted by Guadalupe 7 Electric for electrical service and Whelan Plumbing for 8 plumbing service, both bids being for Fiscal Year '03-'04 9 commencing October 1, 2003, through September 30, 2004, be 10 approved. Any further question or discussion? All in favor 11 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Any 16 further business, gentlemen? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a comment now. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a comment that 20 maybe by -- I mean, I'm disappointed at the few number of 21 proposals we received, but maybe by us accepting them and 22 using them, others will understand that if they want to do 23 business with the County, they'll submit -- 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: In the future. Well, in the 25 competitive places we've done that -- in the case of Road 8-25-03 164 1 and Bridge, when I first got on the Court, very few were 2 submitted. Now we get stacks of submittals. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. I was pleased when the 4 Maintenance Supervisor reported that they were within -- 5 within the range of what we've been paying, or maybe even 6 slightly less, I don't know, but they were certainly not 7 over that. So -- 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: No, they were not over that. 9 They were pretty much all the same. And, as I indicated, 10 response time is real important to me on an emergency basis. 11 But I think we can work through those. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I think both of these 14 successful bidders have the capability, certainly -- 15 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir, they do. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: -- of honoring that. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: Very much so. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further business, 19 gentlemen? We'll stand adjourned. 20 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:46 p.m.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 23 24 25 8-25-03 165 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 1st day of September, 8 2003. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8-25-03