1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 23 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 24 ABSENT: WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 25 2 1 I N D E X October 14, 2003 PAGE 2 --- Visitors' Input 4 3 --- Commissioners Comments 13 4 1.1 Request to fill County Extension Agent position 14 1.2 Request by First Responders to pay for injections 17 5 1.3 Approval of use of HCYEC for flu vaccinations 22 1.4 Approval for use of HCYEC in event of disaster 6 or biowarfare event 25 1.5 Set Public Hearings for Alternate Plat Revisions 26 7 1.6 Release Letter of Credit for road construction in Stablewood Springs Subdivision 29 8 1.7 Amend court order to change number of district from 1 to 2 for Emergency Service District in 9 Mountain Home area 34 1.8 Appoint Misty Smith as Judge, Jane Alley as 10 Alternate Judge for the 11-4-2003 election 36 1.9 Adopt order from TCDRS for participation in 11 supplemental death benefits fund program effective January 1, 2004 37 12 1.10 Clarification of Commissioners Court intent for Travel Allowance (mileage, lodging, meals, etc.) 38 13 1.11 Adoption of current State Rules and Guidelines for OSSF, set public hearing on adoption of said 14 rules and guidelines, or eliminate Section 10 52 1.12 Establish new department or realign/reorganize 15 existing department to handle responsibility as authorized agent for OSSF/Floodplain -- 16 1.13 Discuss organization, office location, and staffing of new Kerr County OSSF Program 56 17 1.14 Discuss administration of Kerr County Floodplain Program 82 18 1.15 Authorize and approve new positions and job descriptions for OSSF Program 88 19 1.16 Approve budget for new Kerr County OSSF Program and approve budget amendments concerning same 89 20 1.17 Authorize Kerr County OSSF Committee to negotiate acquisition of property to facilitate setup of 21 new OSSF Program 98 1.18 Approval of Fourteenth Amendment and extension 22 of City/County Firefighting Agreement, authorize County Judge to sign same 99 23 1.19 Rescission of Commissioners Court order relating to status of City/County Joint Airport Board 104 24 1.20 Approval of contract between Office of Court Administration and Kerr County 114 25 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) October 14, 2003 PAGE 2 1.21 Approval of Agreement between City/County 3 for use of Hotel Occupancy Tax revenues for improvement of Convention Center Facilities 4 (Hill Country Youth Exposition Center), authorize County Judge to sign same 115 5 1.22 Adoption of policy regarding use of Courthouse or Courthouse facilities and Courthouse grounds 119 6 1.23 Authorize Request for Proposals for health insurance coverage plans for County employees 148 7 4.1 Pay Bills 167 8 4.2 Budget Amendments 172 4.3 Late Bills 177 9 4.4 Read and Approve Minutes 177 4.5 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 178 10 --- Adjourned 179 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call the meeting to 7 order. It's a few minutes after 9 a.m. on the 14th of 8 October, 2003, the posted time for the regular Commissioners 9 Court meeting of Kerr County. At this time, I would like to 10 call on Mr. Bill Blackburn with Partners in Ministry to lead 11 us in a moment of prayer. If you'd all rise, please? 12 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Please be seated. 14 At this time, any person who has any business or matter to 15 bring before us which does not relate to a listed agenda 16 item is privileged to come forward. If you wish to speak on 17 an agenda item, we would ask that you fill out a 18 participation form. They're available at the back of the 19 room. And it's not absolutely essential or required that 20 you do that; it just makes me be sure that I don't miss you 21 when that agenda item comes up. But if -- if you wish to 22 speak on anything that's not on the agenda, you're 23 privileged to come forth at this time, and I understand that 24 Ms. Clarabelle Snodgrass is with us this morning and has 25 something for us. Ms. Snodgrass, welcome. 10-14-03 5 1 MS. SNODGRASS: First, I have a paper for 2 each one of you. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 4 MS. SNODGRASS: And I'll just pass this 5 around, too. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Thank you, 7 Clarabelle. This one has my name on it here. 8 MS. SNODGRASS: All right. I'll bill you. 9 (Laughter.) Thank you, gentlemen, for allowing me to be 10 here for a few minutes. Most of you know, I think, that I 11 have worked with Kerr County historical markers for 27 12 years, and I know where they all are and I've been to each 13 one of them many times. The hardest one to find was out at 14 Camp Verde, the little one that was put there many, many 15 years ago, and it's -- isn't standing up. It's standing 16 flat on the top of the little post, and so you always miss 17 it, but it's in there also. I have done this booklet -- 18 book for the Kerr County markers. There's 60 in Kerr County 19 that are in this book, and I'm working on four more at the 20 present time. One is at the foundry right now, and the 21 other one has been approved, and so the others will be later 22 on, I'm sure. 23 This became -- I became aware of this when I 24 was working on the brochures that we've done for years, and 25 last year we published a new amount -- a new brochure, but 10-14-03 6 1 we had 13 new ones to put on the one -- on the brochure 2 because it hadn't been published in 10 years, so it took me 3 quite a while to get those together. And the Convention 4 Bureau's secretaries typed it all for me, since I can't see 5 to type any more. So -- and Rosa helped me out over here. 6 And we got those published, 5,000 of them, and so they 7 turned out beautifully. Doing that, it gave me the idea 8 that we should have a booklet on it, because I have been to 9 conventions several times and bought books from the other 10 counties in the state when they were at convention for the 11 Texas Historical Commission, so I became interested in 12 seeing the book. Most of those that I have seen have the 13 inscriptions of the markers, and maybe a little bit more, so 14 I decided I would write a little extra paragraph on each 15 marker, and that way it would give it something besides what 16 is on the inscription, because there are always few things 17 that happened at those marker dedications or in getting them 18 prepared that you don't see on the marker inscription. So, 19 I think that's helping sell the book, because the people 20 that have been buying the book have been telling me that 21 they enjoyed what I had put in there extra. 22 So, I'm very proud of it, and I'm -- was so 23 surprised that so many people have been inquiring about it, 24 and I've shipped several out of town. So, I'm really proud 25 of it. So, I just wanted to present it, so I brought you 10-14-03 7 1 the little sheet along that tells you part of the things 2 that are in the book itself. Of course, there are more 3 things than that. But I'm very proud of it, and I just 4 wanted you to see it and know that we have done it, and I 5 feel like it will be of use to many, many people. Are there 6 any questions? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you for being here, Ms. 8 Snodgrass. 9 MS. SNODGRASS: Thank you very much. I 10 appreciate your time. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. Thank you for 12 all your work you do. 13 MS. SNODGRASS: I'll take my book back. 14 (Laughter.) They're $20. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're $20 apiece? 16 MS. SNODGRASS: They're $20. That includes 17 the tax. And, Mr. Letz, if you could take one to 18 Mr. Storey? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, I'll be glad to. 20 MS. SNODGRASS: I have it ready. I have a 21 ticket on it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate your efforts. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where -- one more 25 question. Where do we buy them? 10-14-03 8 1 MS. SNODGRASS: Me. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: From you? Contact you? 3 Give you a call? 4 MS. SNODGRASS: Uh-huh. I'm in the phone 5 book. Ross Snodgrass, my husband right here, in the -- in 6 the paper -- in the directory, telephone directory. So, 7 just give me a call. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Is Ross doing all the 9 delivery, Ms. Snodgrass? 10 MS. SNODGRASS: He carries me around while I 11 go get it -- deliver it. 12 MR. SNODGRASS: Taxi driver. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would just like to 14 make a comment. Of course, they live in Precinct 1, you 15 know, the number one. But Clarabelle celebrated her 90th 16 birthday this last Saturday. 17 MS. SNODGRASS: Yesterday. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right, yesterday. 19 What's a day? 20 MS. SNODGRASS: 13th. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And a month or so ago, 22 we all celebrated Ross' 100th birthday. So, these are great 23 citizens that have been here many generations. So, we 24 appreciate everything that you've done. 25 MS. SNODGRASS: Six for me. 10-14-03 9 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Six generations. 2 Wasn't yesterday. Thank you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any other member of 4 the public that wishes to come forward? General Schellhase? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank, you sir. 6 MR. SCHELLHASE: Walter Schellhase, 529 Water 7 Street. This is a public information presentation to the 8 Court, reference V.A. Hospital. Y'all have seen a lot of 9 newspaper articles, a lot of things passed around. I'd like 10 to bring you up to date and tell you where we need help. 11 The hospital is not going to be closed; there are not going 12 to be any beds closed. Not now. The CARES Commission, 13 which is the Capital Assets Realignment Enhancement Service, 14 of which the V.A. has taken off on to reevaluate our assets 15 and determine what's best for the veterans in this area, the 16 issue is to provide improved care to our veterans. They're 17 going to improve our care to our veterans here by closing 20 18 of our acute beds and transferring them to San Antonio. To 19 us, that's not an improvement. That's a degradation of the 20 services that are now being provided. 21 This is going to take place over a period of 22 time, in conjunction with construction in San Antonio. Now, 23 the plan is this: We're going to open more clinics, and 24 it's a historical fact that 20 to 40 patients seen in an 25 outpatient clinic adds at least one patient to an acute bed. 10-14-03 10 1 Kerrville is going to lose 20 acute beds; they're going to 2 San Antonio. We're going to open at least five more 3 clinics, adding at least 25 or 30 more beds, so San Antonio 4 wants to build 30 more acute beds at a cost of $11 million 5 to the taxpayers. The Veterans Council strongly opposes 6 this, because we know we have the facilities here in 7 Kerrville, and we want to keep them like they are. The San 8 Antonio district, which is headed by Mr. Coronado, through 9 their CARES Committee, of which I sit on, made the 10 recommendation that we make no changes in Kerrville 11 whatsoever. A lot of other changes throughout the district 12 that needed to be made, but this was one that they felt was 13 not needed to be made. 14 VISN 17, the regional V.A. district, came 15 back and said no, we want to transfer these beds to San 16 Antonio. So, their proposal that went forward to Secretary 17 Princippi says that we will transfer these beds to San 18 Antonio. That recommendation has now gone to the CARES 19 Commission. The CARES Commission is a 15-man, appointed -- 20 15-man committee appointed by the president. That 21 commission will provide a final presentation and submit it 22 to the secretary, which he will then review and approve 23 either up or down for the whole package, just like the 24 Brackett Committee does for the Department of Defense. And 25 then those changes will be implemented. Here, we stand to 10-14-03 11 1 lose those beds over a period of 5, 10, 15 years, as the 2 time it takes them to get something built in San Antonio. 3 The issue with the whole program is this: 17 says -- the 4 VISN 17 region says that it will take them at least five to 5 six, maybe eight years to get this facility built in San 6 Antonio. The veteran count, based on their own numbers, is 7 going to continue to increase until 2012, and at that time, 8 they will start to fall off, of which the facilities will no 9 longer be needed. So it makes no sense, from the veterans' 10 standpoint, why would we spend $11 million of taxpayers' 11 money in San Antonio to build 30 beds when we have the 12 capability of doing the same thing here in Kerrville? 13 So, the recommendation from the Veterans 14 Council is we want them to transfer beds to San Antonio, 15 open up at least 40 beds here in Kerrville, not just the 20, 16 transfer patients from San Antonio over to Kerrville, 17 increase our specialty care here by using some of the assets 18 within the community for those doctors that are willing to 19 do -- contract with the V.A. That's our recommendation. 20 What we need right now is a lot of input from the public, 21 the Commissioners, the City Council people, this area and 22 around the area. We have contact -- we have this fact sheet 23 that we've prepared to give you all the data we need. We 24 don't want to do a form letter this time; I think those have 25 been worked on it on this program already. We want a letter 10-14-03 12 1 from each of you to go to the contact in the back, which is 2 Mr. Lawrence, who is collecting the data. He will prepare 3 all that information put into a packet as of November the 4 30th, which that final program will go to the V.A. CARES 5 Committee. 6 We have had one criticism in Kerrville, from 7 the two hearings that I've attended, and that was the fact 8 that we have a transportation problem with EMS. It seems 9 that the V.A. -- I understand we have a city ordinance that 10 says if they transfer patients from Kerrville, they must be 11 -- they must go on an EMS vehicle. They cannot use their 12 own contract. They can't use their contract person carrying 13 out of San Antonio. I wasn't aware of that. But out of all 14 the hearings and all the things that have been said and 15 done, that's the only issue. So, we will address the City 16 with regards to that and make sure it's not a major issue. 17 But -- so, what we need from you is public input. We need 18 people to contact the contact that we have listed in here, 19 to put that input stating the value that these 20 beds 20 provide for Kerrville. What would happen if these Kerr -- 21 these beds recently transferred? It would affect 22 employment, although they say it won't, but you're not going 23 to occupy the same positions of employment when you no 24 longer have 20 acute beds. So, we need that input and we 25 need it very quickly. Thank you. Any questions? 10-14-03 13 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: General, the date on 2 here, the letters need to be received by November 1st? 3 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, Mr. Larson -- 5 MR. SCHELLHASE: Correct. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would a -- and I presume 7 a resolution to the Court in addition to individual letters? 8 MR. SCHELLHASE: That would be nice. It 9 certainly wouldn't hurt anything at all. I think all the 10 community support we can get at this time will be valuable. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have you visited with the 12 other county commissioners courts? 13 MR. SCHELLHASE: No, we have not. Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, general. 15 Appreciate it. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: General, one more 17 question. Do you plan to talk to them? I'll be glad to 18 talk to Kendall County and Bandera, where I know -- 19 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yeah, talking to anyone will 20 be great, certainly would be. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Are there any other members of 23 the public that -- would like to bring any matter to the 24 Court's attention on matters not listed on the Court's 25 agenda? All right, we'll move on. I'm sorry to report the 10-14-03 14 1 passing of a former judge of Kerr County, Bob Denson, passed 2 away yesterday. He served this county honorably in this 3 position, and our thoughts and prayers and condolences go 4 out to his family. Commissioner Baldwin, do you have 5 anything you need to report? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. It's a sad 7 day in Kerr County that our good friend, Bob Denson -- he's 8 a good friend of all of us. Bob and I were friends for 9 about 20 years. When he first came here, we became good 10 friends and neighbors, and we went on horseback trips, we 11 served on the Hunt School Board together and this 12 Commissioners Court together, and just a great friend, and 13 sad, and I'd call on the community to pray for his family's 14 strength to get some kind of understanding of all of it. 15 That's all. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't believe I have 18 anything to add to that. I share the sentiment. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Nicholson? Let's 20 move on with the agenda, then, and the first item on the 21 agenda is the consideration and discussion of a request for 22 court action in filling the Kerr County Extension Agent 23 Agricultural/Natural Resources position. Ms. Chapman, good 24 morning. 25 MS. CHAPMAN: Good morning. I want to 10-14-03 15 1 apologize for Ms. Mapston not being here; she had a personal 2 family emergency that she had to attend to, so I'm here on 3 her behalf. But I'm here today to ask you all to -- to 4 consider the approval of Mr. Roy Walston as -- and appoint 5 him as County Extension Agent for Agriculture for Kerr 6 County. I've gotten to know him a little bit in the last 7 couple weeks. We've been talking a little bit about just 8 Kerr County needs in the area of ag and/or natural 9 resources. We've talked about things; about how we can 10 build up a team and do teamwork together. 11 Mr. Walston received his Bachelor's degree in 12 animal science with a business option in 1986 from Angelo 13 State University. He also earned a Master's degree at 14 Tarleton State in 1994. He has worked in four different 15 counties since 1987. He's worked in Wise County, Hall 16 County, San Saba County, and most recently Crockett County. 17 And what's neat about all of that is that when you work in 18 so many different counties, there's no way that -- you can't 19 help but be a diverse person, 'cause each county has 20 different needs. He's got a lot of experience in the areas 21 of livestock and wildlife management. He has a lot of 22 experience and expertise in horticulture and in range 23 management as well. So, that is something that I've heard 24 from the citizens of Kerr County a lot when we were looking 25 to fill this position, is that they wanted someone who's 10-14-03 16 1 very diverse, and Mr. Walston seems to fit the bill for 2 that. He's also had a lot of management experience. He has 3 served as County Coordinator for two of his counties, and he 4 has had a media presence, writing weekly news articles and 5 having radio programs. He's done a lot at the district 6 level, serving on various district level committees, as well 7 as chairing some of these committees, and I know what a 8 large responsibility that is. So, I just ask for approval 9 from the Court, and to accept Mr. Walston for employment 10 starting November 1st. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. Judge, I 12 move that we accept, I guess, the appointment -- is that 13 good enough? -- appointment of Roy Walston to the County 14 Extension Agent/Agricultural and Natural Resource position 15 for Kerr County. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 18 the appointment and employment of Roy Walston be accepted 19 and approved by the Court. Any further question or 20 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 21 your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Thank you 10-14-03 17 1 very much, Ms. Chapman. We appreciate you being here. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's take a look at 3 him, Judge. Stand up, Roy. 4 (Applause.) 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hey, Roy, go Rams. 6 (Laughter.) 7 MR. WALSTON: They need the help. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item is consideration and 9 discussion of the budget request for the First Responders to 10 cover the cost of requiring injections to become volunteer 11 certified First Responders. You're on this item, 12 Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, this is my 14 item. I'd received a phone call from a local First 15 Responder last week that is in training -- do you want to 16 come up to the microphone while I'm saying this? Phone call 17 from a First Responder that is taking a First Responder 18 class taught by our coordinator. And one of the -- the way 19 I understood it, the way -- one of the items is that he's 20 required to get some shots, and I believe he said to the 21 tune of about $180 worth, and wanted to know if the County 22 somehow could reimburse him for those shots. And so I've 23 asked the coordinator to come in and maybe tell us about 24 that, what -- what all that entails. I'm probably going to 25 balk at the issue of actually paying the thing, because I -- 10-14-03 18 1 I think if you start paying for shots, then you're going to 2 start paying for gas and you're going to start -- you know, 3 you're heading on down the road there of -- of issues that 4 are not budgeted. And -- but give us some insight on -- on 5 the request. 6 MR. YOUNG: This request was only for one 7 First Responder. To give you a little background on it, for 8 the training class that we're having for E.M.T.'s -- and, of 9 course, this is the only current First Responder we have 10 that's not an E.M.T., and he's going through class right 11 now. When you go through the class, you have to do clinical 12 rotations, be it on the ambulance or in the emergency room 13 at the hospital. One of the requirements is that you have 14 current shot records, and we check that with everybody that 15 goes through our class. The people that are already 16 certified as E.M.T.'s have already been through this and 17 they're current on their shots. This one individual went 18 ahead and got his, because we require it in the class, and 19 then he decided he wanted to see if the County would 20 reimburse him for that. The other First Responders, as I 21 say, are already current on all their shots. It's this one 22 that was not. And that's -- that's kind of the background 23 on this. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are there other 25 expenses that relate to the training, like shots or gas or 10-14-03 19 1 books or -- 2 MR. YOUNG: We -- when we approached y'all 3 for money for the class, that was all included, the books 4 and everything. And several of the people we allowed to 5 take the class, you know, on their -- on the premises that 6 they were going to be county First Responders when they got 7 out of it, and so we didn't require them to pay tuition. 8 Others that were not going to be First Responders that we 9 allowed in the class had to pay the tuition for the class, 10 which was put back into the fund to help get the equipment 11 and things that we needed to complete the class to a better 12 degree. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I just think if 14 -- if we were going to pay something like that, the only 15 place I -- I mean, there's not a First Responders shot line 16 item in the budget. The only place I could see to take it 17 from would be Kyle's First Responder budget. And -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Salary, you mean? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, his salary line, 20 absolutely. But I was requested to look into it, and I'm 21 now asking you guys if y'all have any special, wonderful 22 feelings about what to do about this. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: This particular individual 24 that reimbursement is being sought for, is that going to be 25 a county First Responder? 10-14-03 20 1 MR. YOUNG: Yes, it is. He's currently a 2 county First Responder at the ECA level, the emergency care 3 attendant level, and he's a very active First Responder. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: And will continue as such as 5 an advanced level when the training is completed, on a 6 volunteer basis at no compensation? 7 MR. YOUNG: Yes, sir. It's not necessarily 8 an advanced level; it's still a basic level, but it's a 9 little higher training than what he has now. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I'm sympathetic 12 from the standpoint that, you know, I'd like to encourage 13 more First Responders, but the -- I see it opening up a 14 whole list of things that we're going to be responsible for 15 down the road. And I -- you know, and unless we're going to 16 make budget adjustments to allow other expenditures of this 17 type, I don't think we can do -- just pick one out and do 18 it. That's my opinion. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I have had occasion, 20 over the last two or three years, to see the First 21 Responders in action several times, and I really appreciate 22 them. They do a -- a good and valuable service to the 23 citizens of Kerr County. On this item, I'll defer to the 24 judgment of the other Commissioners. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Actually, I think the 10-14-03 21 1 way to deal with it, if -- if we're even going to consider 2 doing these kinds of things, it needs to be dealt with in 3 next year's budget, and be specific with line items outside 4 of his salary and -- and those other issues that he's 5 dealing with. To me, I mean, I -- he's a good friend. He's 6 a great leader, a great leader in our community, not only 7 fire service and ambulance service, but a good guy, and 8 deserves it. But it's just -- to me, it's a budget issue. 9 So, I mean, if you're willing to cough up money out of your 10 own budget, I might consider it, but I don't think you're 11 going to do that. 12 MR. YOUNG: Well, I -- I don't see a large 13 need for this occurring in the future, you know. As these 14 people take the E.M.T. class, it's pretty much a given that 15 they take care of all the prerequisites to do that. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can go to Item 3, 17 as far as I'm concerned. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Anyone else have anything 19 further to offer on this? Thank you, Mr. Young. We 20 appreciate you being here. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Kyle. 22 MR. YOUNG: Could I give you a quick update 23 on our E.M.T. class? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know if 25 that's -- the agenda item I don't think would lend to that, 10-14-03 22 1 maybe, huh? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably not. I wouldn't 3 think so. 4 MR. YOUNG: Okay, I'll come back to the next 5 one, give you an update. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Next item is 8 consider and discuss the approval of the use of the Youth 9 Exhibit Center for a clinic to provide flu vaccinations to 10 the citizens of Kerr County as requested by the Texas 11 Department of Health Infection Control/Employee Health 12 Coordinator. This item was forwarded to me by the Infection 13 Control/Employee Health Coordinator for the flu clinic out 14 at the Exhibit Center either in October or November, subject 15 to availability. Two primary reasons for it would be, 16 number one, it's a known location; everybody knows where to 17 go. Secondly, there's -- there's reasonable access, and -- 18 and there's enough space there for that to be conducted. 19 But it would be subject to availability, so I -- I indicated 20 I would bring this matter to the Court. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move that we 22 approve use of the Hill Country Youth Exhibition Center for 23 a clinic to provide flu vaccinations to the citizens of Kerr 24 County. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I second that motion. 10-14-03 23 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 2 approve the agenda item. Any further questions or 3 discussion? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couple of comments. 5 First, I can't remember exactly our policy. Is there any -- 6 I presume the intent is to waive any kind of use fees out 7 there. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. I'm sure that's the 9 case, yes. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sure that's what 11 this whole thing's about. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but, I mean, it 13 doesn't say that. And if we're going to waive a fee, we 14 need to -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Say that. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- we need to waive the 17 fee. And the other part is, kind of a general comment on 18 this one and the next one. I think that, at some point, the 19 Court needs to look at our liaison positions. And the 20 reason is, I'm a liaison to the Ag Barn, and I didn't know 21 this was going to be on the agenda. It's not that big a 22 deal; I certainly would have put it on the agenda as well, 23 but if we're going to use liaisons, we ought to use 24 liaisons. If we're not going to use liaisons, we need to 25 get rid of all our appointments. I mean, I think -- you 10-14-03 24 1 know, to me, a liaison -- if it's related to Ag Barn, 2 Commissioner Williams and I should be involved with it. If 3 it's going to be related to the airport, Commissioner 4 Nicholson -- you know, so it's just kind of -- I just think 5 that if we're going to use them -- and I certainly have no 6 problem. It's just a matter of people doing what we've been 7 asked to do earlier in the year. But I think that, on the 8 waiver issue, if we're waiving fees on this one and the next 9 one, it looks like we probably ought to specifically waive 10 those fees. And I can't remember our policy. Maybe -- I 11 don't know if Glenn's here -- the governmental entities may 12 be waived automatically. I can't remember what that 13 schedule is, but -- okay, we don't automatically waive them. 14 So, my question -- I can't remember, so -- but we are -- I 15 think it should be part of the motion. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I amend the notion 17 to waive the fees, and I agree with the need for closer 18 coordination. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Second okay with that? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, absolutely. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 22 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 23 your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10-14-03 25 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I apologize for not referring 3 this matter to you. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No problem. No problem. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't let him off that 7 easy, Jon. You're letting him off too easy. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Consideration and discussion 9 of the approval for use of the Hill Country Youth Exhibit 10 Center in the event of a disaster or biowarfare event. 11 Texas Department of Health again requesting that. Also, I'm 12 sure, waiver of fees. That, of course, is an emergency 13 item. Applicability would certainly not come into play 14 there. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 16 we approve the use of the Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center 17 in the event of a disaster or biowarfare event as requested 18 by the Texas Department of Health. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 21 approve the agenda item. Any further questions or 22 discussion? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you think it will help 24 pay for any renovations so we can make it a better facility 25 for them to use? 10-14-03 26 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I thought we'd let the 2 liaisons from the Court discuss that with them. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. (Laughter.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 5 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 6 your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. The next 11 item on the agenda is setting public hearings for alternate 12 plat revisions. Mr. Johnston. 13 MR. JOHNSTON: Good morning. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, sir. 15 MR. JOHNSTON: We have several plat 16 revisions, and they are all qualified as alternate plat 17 revision, being that they're only one or two lots. I have a 18 list; let me go through them. (A) Revision of plat in 19 Falling Water, Lot 138A and 139A. That is a combination of 20 lots. (B) Revision of plat in Falling Water, Lot 124A and 21 125, combination of lots. (C) Revision of plat for 22 Greenwood Forest, Lot 8 and Lot 16, which is combining three 23 lots and making two out of them, so that would be a 24 combination. And revision of plat for Riverpark Estates, 25 Lot 27; that's dividing a lot. (E) should be eliminated; 10-14-03 27 1 that was already -- we already have a public hearing date 2 set for that one. I'd recommend -- we have to wait 30 days, 3 so next -- I think the next regular meeting will be 4 November 24th. And Plats (A), (B), and (C) would not 5 require notice by mail, since they are combining lots. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, do we need a 7 specific public hearing for each one, or can we combine them 8 all into one? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I would think we would need a 10 specific hearing -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For each? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: -- for each one, but I don't 13 see any harm in setting them all for the same time, as 14 opposed inform 10 o'clock, 10:05, 10:10, that kind of 15 business, 10:15 or whatever. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll move we set a public 17 hearing November 24th at 10 a.m. for public hearing 18 regarding the revision of plat -- or of Falling Water -- let 19 me back up there. 20 MS. SOVIL: You might want to change that to 21 10:30. We have the electrical RFP's coming in. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At 10:00? Okay. Let me 23 start over, Kathy. Sorry about that. I'll move that we set 24 a public hearing for the plat revisions as presented for 25 November 24th at 10:30 a.m. 10-14-03 28 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I second the motion. 2 I have a question. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 4 approve the agenda item for 10:30 a.m. on November 24, 2003, 5 public hearing. Any questions? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, thank you. 7 Franklin, (D)? Where is Riverpark Estates? 8 MR. JOHNSTON: That's on Hermann Sons Road. 9 It's one that you granted a variance to for lot size here a 10 while back. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We've already granted 12 a variance? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: For the lot size. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we're granting 16 another variance? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, we granted -- we 18 approved the variance. Now we have to do the public hearing 19 for the dividing of the lots. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Same one? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Same lot, but -- yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 24 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 25 your right hand. 10-14-03 29 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Thank you, 5 Mr. Johnston. Next item on the agenda is the request for 6 release of Letter of Credit Number 7036775 for road 7 construction in Stablewood Springs Subdivision. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move that we 9 approve the release of credit -- Letter of Credit Number 10 7036775 for road construction in Stablewood Springs 11 Subdivision. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 14 approve the release of Letter of Credit Number 7036775 for 15 road construction, Stablewood Springs Subdivision. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is this -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Any question or discussion? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is this a one-year -- 20 a one-year deal? Has it been a year? 21 MR. JOHNSTON: This was a Letter of Credit 22 that just guaranteed the roads would be built according to 23 the final plat. It's private roads, so it's not a 24 maintenance bond or maintenance letter of credit. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, yeah. Okay. 10-14-03 30 1 MR. JOHNSTON: Roads have been completed. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two questions. One, the 3 roads were inspected or we have that data? 4 (Mr. Johnston nodded.) 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They were built to County 6 specifications? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, they are. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other question 9 is, there are some photos included. 10 MR. JOHNSTON: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the -- 12 MR. JOHNSTON: All those weren't of the 13 roads. Some of them were the detention areas. That's just 14 for your information. They are being seeded. They all -- 15 grass is growing on the berms and the ponds. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my -- what I was 17 looking at were things I thought were problems with the 18 roads. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: Oh I'm sorry. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Terrible condition. 21 (Laughter.) 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it just looks like 23 there's some -- on this particular one, it looks like 24 there's a lot of the road eroded away next to the culvert. 25 Anyway, my question -- I misunderstood why they were in 10-14-03 31 1 here, I guess. But -- so, I guess that goes under the 2 maintenance portion. They were built to specifications? 3 MR. JOHNSTON: The roads were. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe being in bad shape 5 right now is not an issue with the -- from the release of 6 the Letter of Credit. 7 (Mr. Johnston nodded.) 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 10 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 11 your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item, 16 consideration and discussion of amending Court Order Number 17 28232 -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, excuse me. On 19 Item 4, I see a perplexed look by someone who is here for 20 the public hearing item; we went over that pretty quick 21 regarding setting those public hearings, and it's the 22 property owner of (D) on that list, the one in Riverpark 23 Estates. And I see the -- I was wondering if they have a 24 question related to the public hearing. 25 MS. BOHNERT: Well, yes, sir. Mr. Letz, 10-14-03 32 1 we're -- you know, I'm going to let Mrs. Lovett -- we're 2 just -- I guess the time factor's -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Identify yourself. 4 MS. BOHNERT: Excuse me. I'm -- I'm Paula 5 Bohnert; I'm a real estate broker. I know y'all hate people 6 like me, but I'm quite perplexed at the procedure here. 7 Ms. Lovett came to Commissioners Court last session. Y'all 8 were gracious, granted her a variance, so we're trying to 9 expedite this sale for Ms. Lovett. I'm talking to U.G.R.A. 10 and I notice on your agenda that it's all coming to pass, 11 that the change, et cetera. And we're just perplexed at -- 12 that's going to be how many days? 13 MS. LOVETT: Fifty days. 14 MS. BOHNERT: Before the hearing. I'm 15 perplexed also. We need to route -- we're trying to do as 16 much for Ms. Lovett as we can to keep the costs down because 17 of her position. We're -- we're being told we need to go to 18 the utility companies, route this survey. The house is 19 there intact, utilities are there. I just -- I'm having a 20 little bit of a hard time understanding the whole procedure, 21 and -- help me out. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This part of the process 23 is state law. 24 MS. BOHNERT: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now, the notification, 10-14-03 33 1 the routing slip and some of the other things are County, 2 and we -- the County has adopted the state law. Whenever 3 you revise an existing subdivision plat, it has to go to 4 public notice because it affects the other interests or 5 property owners in that specific subdivision. So, I mean, I 6 wouldn't anticipate it, but it's possible that some of the 7 other owners in the River Park Estates may object, and we 8 would listen to that. So, we -- I mean, we can't just, by 9 law, change a subdivision plat without doing a public 10 hearing. That public hearing, by law, is a 30-day period. 11 And, based on our meetings, I mean, it can be anywhere up 12 almost to probably 45 days to -- you know, something like 13 that, just depending. The other portion of it is -- is it's 14 just part of the Subdivision Rules, and, you know, anyone 15 that does a -- a revision, you know, has to go through the 16 process. I think it will be a little bit simpler when we 17 change the O.S.S.F. around a little bit, but that's neither 18 here nor there now, related to utility companies and others. 19 I mean, they're required to provide a service to homes, and 20 even though there may be homes already built here, if we 21 were to try to write subdivision rules for every, you know, 22 specific situation, we'd be so -- 23 MS. BOHNERT: I understand that. And -- I 24 understand it is state law, which I do understand. And 25 Mr. Johnston was very gracious on the phone, and we will 10-14-03 34 1 just go through whatever process, and we'll do it. And I 2 apologize, and I do appreciate what y'all have done, and 3 just -- help us out. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: I want to say one more thing. 6 The -- the plat will have to all -- all the signatures will 7 need to be signed and you need to submit those drawings to 8 our office, I think, two weeks before the date -- a couple 9 weeks before the date in order to have it done on that date. 10 Otherwise, if you don't have all that done, it may push it 11 even further out. 12 MS. BOHNERT: We will have it done. Thank 13 you. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sorry, Judge, didn't mean 15 to interrupt you, but I saw a perplexed look. Gave them an 16 opportunity. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Easier to get that resolved 18 now than have it come up later and inconvenience them. Next 19 item will be consideration and discussion of amending Court 20 Order 28232, as recommended by the Election Division, 21 Secretary of State's office, to change the number of the 22 district from "1" to "2" for the Emergency Service District 23 election in the Mountain Home area. Ms. Pieper. 24 MS. PIEPER: Judge, that about sums it up. I 25 did speak with the Elections Division, and they suggested 10-14-03 35 1 that it's always better to amend the order prior to the 2 election. That way we can change the ballots, and the 3 voters will know exactly what they're voting on. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: For the members of the Court 5 that may not be up to speed on this, the formation of this 6 Emergency Services District preceded the end of the 7 legislative session, the beginning of it. The petition was 8 presented, and it was denominated as Kerr County Emergency 9 Services District Number 1. At that time, we had a Kerr 10 County Fire District out in Ingram, which we commonly called 11 the Ingram Fire District, as Kerr County Fire District 12 Number 1. Subsequent to all the formative -- formative 13 activity, the petition, the court order and so forth, onto 14 the election, describing it by metes and bounds, the 15 Legislature automatically converted Fire District to 16 Emergency Services District, and proceeded to notify the 17 Ingram Fire District people that they were thenceforth known 18 as Kerr County Emergency Services District Number 1. So, we 19 had the possibility of two of them there. We could either 20 clean it up before or after. The Clerk is suggesting that 21 we amend the order calling for the election to denominate it 22 as Number 2, print the ballot as Number 2, and by virtue of 23 all this explanation on the record, hopefully nobody will be 24 confused. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move that we 10-14-03 36 1 approve the amending of Court Order Number 28232 to change 2 the number of the district -- of the Kerr County Emergency 3 Service District Number 1 to Number 2. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 6 approve the agenda item. Any further questions or 7 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 8 your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Thank you, 13 Ms. Pieper. Next item also is Ms. Pieper's. Consideration 14 and discussion of appointing Misty Smith as judge and Jane 15 Alley as alternate judge for the November 4, 2003 election. 16 MS. PIEPER: Gentlemen, this just deals with 17 finding a judge that lives in what they call that district. 18 And Misty Smith does live in that district, as well as Jane 19 Alley, who is the alternate judge. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move that we 21 approve the appointments of Misty Smith as judge and Jane 22 Alley as alternate judge for the November 4, 2003 election. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 25 the approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 10-14-03 37 1 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 2 your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 7 is consideration and discussion of the adoption of an order 8 from T.C.D.R.S., Texas County and District Retirement 9 System, for participation in the supplemental death benefits 10 fund program effective January 1, 2004. Ms. Nemec, our 11 Treasurer. 12 MS. NEMEC: Yes, good morning. This was -- 13 this death benefit was approved during the budget process, 14 and the figures were all put into each elected official's 15 department, and so this is just to formalize that action, 16 and for the Commissioners and the Judge to sign the proper 17 paperwork. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 21 adopt the order from the T.C.D.R.S. for the participation in 22 the supplemental death benefits fund program, effective 23 January 1, 2004. Any further question or discussion? All 24 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10-14-03 38 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, do we have one 5 of these forms to sign? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I suspect, if she doesn't have 7 one, the Clerk's got one. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we'll circulate that. 10 Next item is consider and discuss clarification of the 11 Commissioners Court intent for travel allowances, such as 12 mileage, lodging, meals, et cetera. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. This came 14 up a couple of weeks ago. One of our elected officials 15 traveled and -- and had to -- went to a location in Texas 16 where there wasn't any kind of shuttle from the airport to 17 the -- his hotel or to the meeting, and had to rent a car, 18 and then it became unclear if we were going to pay car 19 rentals or not. And that kind of triggered all kinds of 20 little questions. And I visited with Tommy, and -- and if 21 you look -- if you look through the minutes of our 22 discussion about this, we really didn't come to -- we did 23 not come to a conclusion on this issue, and I wanted to 24 bring this -- bring this up. And what I'd like to see 25 done -- I have a couple of questions. What I'd like to see 10-14-03 39 1 done is us come to a conclusion on it, and not only come to 2 that conclusion, but put it in some kind of writing form and 3 stash it in the courthouse system somehow, so -- in case 4 this thing comes back up and we're unsure what happened, 5 which I predict is going to happen many times. 6 So, one of the questions is, let's say that 7 -- sorry, my ears are stopped up; I can't even hear myself. 8 One of the questions is, let's say that I travel to South 9 Padre Island, and I fly down there as opposed to driving. 10 And the mileage would pay me -- these are just round 11 numbers; this is not what it actually is. If I drove in my 12 car and was paid the mileage at the state rate, let's say 13 that I had -- it cost $150. But I can fly; my airplane 14 tickets would cost me $100. Do we collect -- does the 15 traveler collect the $150? Or can I turn in my airplane 16 tickets for $100? That's one question. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are you going to present 18 a whole bunch, or do you want to talk about them as we go? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It doesn't matter. I 20 mean, it's just -- this is going to trigger some other 21 questions as we go through. But, yeah, there's one -- 22 there's a question. You want to deal with it? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, I mean, if we're 24 -- I thought we -- I agree, after reading through the 25 minutes, we didn't agree to do anything, but we talked about 10-14-03 40 1 having a per diem for food at one point. To me, a per diem 2 for food is fine, and the rest of it is whatever it costs 3 you. I mean, if you drive, you should get paid the mileage 4 rate. If you fly, you should turn in your airplane ticket 5 and get reimbursed. I think it should be actual 6 expenditures. And then, except for the per diem, if it -- 7 if we go the with per diem, whatever we decide that per diem 8 amount is, that's what the employee gets while they're on 9 the road. 'Cause, I mean, they're presumed to eat. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That's -- that was the -- that 11 was the consensus that -- that I believe that we reached, 12 that rather than having a cap on the hotel/motel, that was 13 left as to actual-cost reimbursement. The meals, rather 14 than doing a bunch of reimbursement supper tickets, we 15 solved that with a per diem. With regard to some -- with 16 regard to the mileage, if you want to submit actual mileage, 17 that, of course, you could do. If you didn't want to be 18 bothered by that, you could just turn in the state rate off 19 the Comptroller's table, if you drove. You know, if you use 20 some other mode of transportation, whatever your actual 21 costs were. And that's -- that was the sense that I got. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, the airplane 23 ticket plus the rental car? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or -- 10-14-03 41 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Taxi or -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Shuttle bus, taxi, 3 limousine, et cetera. Okay. "Actual expenditure," I heard 4 come out of your mouth, and those sound like good words. 5 Okay. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: With the exception of meals, 7 and that would be on the basis -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a whole 9 different issue. That's a different issue fixing to come 10 up. 11 MS. NEMEC: Judge? Judge, on that -- I have 12 a question on that. I was told that -- you know, that what 13 we're doing is, starting October 1, that on the per diem, 14 that it was $30, that they could collect that before they 15 actually go on the trip. Is that correct? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that was part of the 17 reason of going with per diem, that they could draw that 18 money and not have to be financing their own expense, at 19 least in part. 20 MS. NEMEC: That certainly will help 21 everybody. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that was for the 23 employees' benefit, I think. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, of course, 25 there's some question about that. Seemed like someone had 10-14-03 42 1 -- some elected official, I think it was the Tax 2 Assessor/Collector, had a meeting pop up, like, you know, 3 we're having this big meeting in 10 days from now, and there 4 wasn't time for that person to come -- come through the 5 Commissioners Court to release that money up front. Now, do 6 they have -- do they have -- or does the Auditor have 7 authority to automatically release some funds for per diem 8 travel? Or do they have to come through here? Or did we 9 set up a separate fund to come out of, or what did we do? 10 None of the above? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: There was some discussion of 12 creating a separate kitty. I don't think there was any 13 intention that they come to the Court for specific approval, 14 but there was some discussion of setting up a separate fund 15 that the Treasurer could fund those out of when a request 16 was made by an employee, you know, in advance. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, I'm going to South 18 Padre to a meeting in early December; all I have to do is go 19 to the Treasurer and say, "I'm going to be there four days. 20 Give me some money," and she writes me a check? 21 MS. NEMEC: I would think it would come out 22 of the Conference line item, though, for that department. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Obviously, it would have to be 25 charged against the line item. But there would have to be 10-14-03 43 1 some sort of documentation for it, obviously. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Documentation is good. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And, you know, the amount 4 requested and purpose and what the function was. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My -- I have a question 7 related to this thing. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We'll get there. Just 9 a second. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This per diem thing 12 that we pay $30 a day, that's -- that's obviously for food. 13 For food. Again, if I go and I choose to eat sardines and 14 crackers, and I pocket the 20 bucks, I mean, that's the way 15 it works, isn't it? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of sardines, 17 though. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A lot of sardines. If 19 you like -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Or good sardines. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or good sardines. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, here's the 23 question, though. What about if you have a meeting -- and 24 Commissioner Letz does this a lot -- a meeting in Hondo, a 25 meeting in Bracketville, one day. You go down there and you 10-14-03 44 1 drive back. Do we pay one day per diem? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think so. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, not for you, but 4 some -- some of these other people may. What do you think, 5 Number 4? 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think we pay one 7 day per diem. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: One day per diem. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I look at it -- to me, if 10 you're here in the morning and you're here at night, maybe, 11 for lunch, a reduced -- you know, a -- you know, an amount, 12 but I don't -- I think you're almost compensating 13 employees -- I mean, you're going to eat at home and -- you 14 know, those two meals, whether you go on a trip or not. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You eat breakfast at 16 home, you go to Hondo for the meeting and you eat lunch, and 17 we're going to give you 30 bucks? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's too much. 19 I think you -- I think we need to have -- if you're gone all 20 day, 30 bucks. If you're gone part of a day, it's 10 bucks, 21 or something to that effect. I mean -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Well, we need 23 to reach that final figure. I see the -- our court lady 24 writing. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And also, you have -- a 10-14-03 45 1 similar situation is that when you, you know, leave at noon 2 to go to Austin for a conference, registration's at 3 5 o'clock, something like that, and you kind of eat -- you 4 know, you're away that night, but you're here during the 5 day. I think, on part-day, we ought to have a separate 6 amount, whether it's $10 or $15 or $20 or whatever. I think 7 if it's a full day, it's one amount; part day, another 8 amount. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The per diem -- the per diem 10 is broken down that the State has used at $7, $8, and $15, 11 breakfast-lunch-supper, and why wouldn't you use that? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Say it again? That 13 form? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, mm-hmm. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's fine with me. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is fine. And I 17 questioned -- Tommy put together this form here; this is 18 what he uses. And I questioned him, breaking out the 19 different meals, "Why would you break out the meals 20 specifically if we're paying a per diem?" And -- and he 21 says to me, he says -- he got this from the State, by the 22 way, and that there is an ongoing debate whether one meal is 23 a full day or not, kind of thing. So, I get -- I think he's 24 right about breaking it out this way. But what do you do? 25 Do you turn in that -- the $8? Or do you do $10 for a 10-14-03 46 1 partial day? How do you want to do it? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd do it this way. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This way right here? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have your lunch 6 and you turn in that meal ticket? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: No. You just -- you just 8 claim that you're entitled to be reimbursed for lunch, and 9 the standard rate's 8 bucks. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, I agree. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: You got some hungry campers 13 back here. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, my question would 15 be -- and this is something our department does just about 16 daily, is if you have an officer that leaves 5:00 in the 17 morning, 5:30, going to pick up prisoners somewhere else, 18 and he doesn't get back in until 8 o'clock at night, is that 19 a full day that gets all three, or is he supposed to eat 20 before he left at 5:00 and eat after he gets back in at 21 8:00? How are y'all going to divide that out? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If he's eating three 23 meals on the road and that's necessary, he gets paid for 24 three meals. If he eats -- I mean, I think you use 25 judgment. I don't -- 10-14-03 47 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I agree, but when 2 you're saying a full day or half day, that kind of -- 3 there's some kinks in there. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the department 5 head/elected official has to look at it and has to approve 6 these as they're coming through. I mean, look at the intent 7 of the policy. The intent of the policy is not to pay 8 employees, you know, when they're not using the funds. The 9 intent is for them -- if they need to eat, you know, three 10 meals, they should get reimbursed for those meals, you know. 11 I -- 12 MS. NEMEC: I can do a form for them to sign 13 with breakfast, lunch, and dinner, $7, $8, and $15. And 14 then they can sign it, what time they're -- you know, what 15 they're going to use, and have the elected official approve 16 it. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 18 MS. NEMEC: And then base -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I like the form. My 20 question was, where'd it come from? You answered that 21 question; it came from Tommy. I think it's a good idea, and 22 I also like the certification on the bottom. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Last question, Jonathan, 24 I would have is, a lot of our trips where it's one gender 25 having to go pick up another one, we use off-duty people to 10-14-03 48 1 ride with them where you have to have two officers. One's 2 totally off duty, one's on duty. Is that going to make any 3 difference at all in the per diem for those people? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are they off duty and 5 being paid? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're off duty, riding 7 on their own just to give us that second person, but they 8 just want to ride along as an off-duty -- we need another 9 person. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand. I mean -- 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But they're volunteering 12 their off time. They're not in uniform, just doing it on 13 their own; they're bored at the house or whatever. 14 Shouldn't we still pay them a per diem? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we need to 16 feed them. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm not a big fan of 19 the per diem thing, but I think we need to feed them. 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Still need to feed them. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it's a requirement 22 that we have two people along, we -- I think we need to 23 cover their expenses. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about -- I don't 25 know about you, but I know previous Sheriffs have used folks 10-14-03 49 1 to ride along that are not County employees. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No, I don't do that. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We, at times -- it's 5 going to be a certified officer. At times, if constables, 6 you know, are free, or if it's a city case and we can talk 7 one of the city officers into riding with us to go get this 8 person, we'll do that, okay? But not just civilians. But 9 then, if it's a city officer and city case, normally we try 10 and let them pay for their own meals. But -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Back on the travel 12 thing, Rusty, one of the thoughts that came to my mind -- 13 this probably never happens, but one of the questions popped 14 up. Let's say that you have a deputy that flies out to Los 15 Angeles to get a prisoner, which recently you did, and 16 Californians may be -- you know, they don't like Texans, so 17 they're not going to come down to the airport and pick you 18 up and give you a ride over to -- to the jail to get the 19 guy. And so, do we pay the taxi or -- that was one of my 20 questions. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: What we've had to do in 22 the past some, and it's getting harder and harder, is at one 23 time I used my personal credit card to go ahead and let them 24 get a rent-a-car, and put on it personal credit card. But 25 now the rent-a-car companies will not rent a car to anybody 10-14-03 50 1 if the credit card they have with them is not in their name. 2 But -- but -- so they put on it their personal credit card, 3 and then when they get back, we ask the Court, through our 4 Investigations Expense, to reimburse that cost. And that's 5 the way it's been working. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Yeah, that 7 one's solved. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But do we need a -- I 9 mean, I really like this form a lot. I think it's a good -- 10 it should assist the Auditor and the Treasurer as to what 11 they need, and also it's a good follow-up, you know, just 12 paperwork, something for the file. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do we need to 14 officially adopt it? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's my question. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm wondering -- what 17 I wanted to do, though, Jon, is actually officially adopt 18 what she's writing down as well. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, at our next 20 meeting, we'll adopt this form? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Next meeting or the 22 next five minutes; depends on how long it takes her to get 23 it done. Yeah, next meeting. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I didn't want to spend 10-14-03 51 1 a lot of time on it, but it's just something that's not 2 cleared up, and the County Auditor was -- had some questions 3 about it. Ms. Treasurer, you said something about creating 4 a form? 5 MS. NEMEC: Yes, sir, unless you already have 6 one there. It sounds like you might have one. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I think we do. 8 MS. NEMEC: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It will work. Looks good 10 to me. 11 MS. SOVIL: You might want to take a break. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have a -- do we have a 13 motion on the agenda item? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We've got about a half 16 a dozen items dealing with O.S.S.F. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's take a break and 18 come back with fresh legs. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. We'll stand in 20 recess, then, until 10:15. 21 (Recess taken from 10:03 a.m. to 10:15 a.m.) 22 - - - - - - - - - - 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to 24 order. 25 MS. SOVIL: We don't have a clerk. 10-14-03 52 1 JUDGE TINLEY: It's just a bit after 10:15; 2 we've been in recess for a few minutes. The next item on 3 the agenda is discuss and consider the adoption of the 4 current state rules and guidelines for on-site septic 5 facilities -- sewer facilities and set a public hearing on 6 the adoption of such rules and guidelines, or, in the 7 alternative, that the Court eliminate Section 10 from the 8 current Kerr County O.S.S.F. Rules presently in effect. I 9 put this on the agenda, I suppose as a springboard for the 10 O.S.S.F. total discussion that's before us. It seems like 11 the appropriate springboard item. Maybe it's not the 12 appropriate springboard item. Does anybody have anything to 13 offer on this item before we move on? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a comment. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I agree that -- I 17 hope this Court ends up adopting state rules only. But I 18 think that the -- we need to set up the department first, 19 and how we're going to do that, because part of the rules 20 that we have to adopt have an appeal process, and part of 21 that appeal process has to be how we're going to handle 22 appeals. And, until we have a department, we don't know. I 23 don't think -- we haven't crossed that bridge yet. And I 24 think, in concept, state rules are where I'd like to go, but 25 I don't know where the rest of the Court would like to go. 10-14-03 53 1 But until we figure out, you know, how we're going to handle 2 some of the structure, we can't fill out the -- whatever it 3 is, the three-page document that -- you know, the order that 4 we have to pass. And we can't -- and I think we need to 5 have that order available for us to look at, and then put it 6 on file immediately after the Court -- once we approve it. 7 So, I think we -- I think we need to postpone this till our 8 next meeting, but I agree totally with the concept of what 9 you -- what this agenda item is. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: What I hear you saying is that 11 it's not the springboard item, but rather the clean-up item. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll make a comment 14 on it also. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The next five items 17 have got to do with the organization, staffing and 18 budgeting, funding of a county O.S.S.F. and floodplain 19 program. And one thing you have to -- the kind of rules you 20 have and appeal process you have, principally the kind of 21 rules you have, have to do with the staffing requirements 22 and the budgeting requirements. So, on the one hand, I 23 agree with Commissioner Letz that it's appropriate that 24 we -- that we wait until we make some other determinations 25 before we decide on what the rules are going to be in the 10-14-03 54 1 appeal process. I'm going to proceed as if -- in terms of 2 making decisions about staff size and budget size, as if the 3 rules were the model state order. There wasn't -- that I'm 4 going to assume that eventually we'll approve the set of 5 rules with nothing in Section 10. That's an assumption. We 6 have to -- we have to do what we -- we have to follow the 7 process to do that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, under this -- to 9 kind of be a little bit firmer on this point, we could, 10 under this agenda item, you know, state that. And if 11 there's -- if there's an agreement and then we direct 12 somebody to prepare the actual document to put on our next 13 agenda, that kind of gives us a framework to work in under 14 the next agenda items, and also gets it on the next agenda, 15 so we'll have a formal document to approve and set the 16 public hearing with. So, I'll make a motion that the Court 17 proceed with adopting state rules and guidelines only, 18 without anything in Section 10, and that the order 19 proclaiming same will be on our next agenda item. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Next agenda. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 23 the Court adopt the current state rules and guidelines for 24 on-site sewerage facilities, and that the full order 25 evidencing the adoption of the same be on the next agenda 10-14-03 55 1 item. Any further question or discussion? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So -- well, yeah. I'm 3 a little bit confused. At this very moment, this -- this 4 order fixing to come out right now -- or this motion is that 5 we are adopting the state rules. We're eliminating Section 6 10, the whole deal right now? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. I think we can -- we 8 can't -- we don't have authority to do that, I don't think. 9 I think we are -- we are stating that we -- we're going to 10 put it on our next agenda item, or I guess we're authorizing 11 the preparation of the order to set it in place, state rules 12 only. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's how I -- that's 15 what my intent is with the motion. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Kind of like a letter of 17 intent in the contracting process, and we're serving notice 18 to that effect. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We will do that. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: But subject to the actual 21 order to be prepared and presented at the next meeting, and 22 any public hearing requirements that may be required in 23 connection with it. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Right, and we'll 25 set -- my intent would be that we will set the public 10-14-03 56 1 hearing at our next meeting. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 3 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 4 your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. I'm going 9 to skip Item 12, and we'll come back to that as may be 10 necessary, if there are any additional items that are not 11 included in 13, 14, 15, 16, and/or 17. Is that satisfactory 12 with everyone? We'll move to Item 13, consideration and 13 discussion of the organization, office location, and 14 staffing of the new Kerr County O.S.S.F. program. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I kind of -- Dave and I 16 kind of worked this somewhat together, somewhat apart. In 17 the backup, the last page in mine, it's probably best to 18 pull that out and kind of use that as the -- the guide. 19 It's Page -- and it's just kind of an overall of what we 20 need to -- what I -- you know, I think we need to get 21 through on this agenda item. And I started out saying that 22 Commissioner Nicholson and myself gathered this information 23 pursuant to the last Commissioners Court meeting, and just, 24 from a records standpoint, putting down who we have visited 25 with during that interim and helping develop the 10-14-03 57 1 recommendations and comments that were -- they were making 2 to-date. 3 The basic organization is that -- as we see 4 it, is to set up a -- or as I see it; I won't speak for 5 Commissioner Nicholson -- department -- to set up a 6 Department of Environmental Health. This department will 7 handle O.S.S.F. administration and Solid Waste 8 administration. Floodplain administration, I put a question 9 mark on there, and also under the other item. And these 10 become important when we look at staffing; I mean, how many 11 people you put in there, as to what this department is going 12 to actually be responsible for. But I think that O.S.S.F. 13 and floodplain -- and Solid Waste certainly fit together. I 14 personally think floodplain fits better in Road and Bridge 15 Department. And I say that because it's a -- really, it's 16 more involved with the platting process, very closely, and I 17 think it's something that the County Engineer, you know, 18 could review. As I understand it, under floodplain, pretty 19 much what we do is we look at the FEMA maps, as vague as 20 they are frequently, and determine if it's in the floodplain 21 or not and act accordingly, and I really think it's 22 something that could be done in another department. I don't 23 have any really strong feelings. It can be done, you know, 24 in this new department. That's why I put a question mark 25 after it. Might want to stop there and kind of do them one 10-14-03 58 1 at a time. Dave, do you have any other comments? 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No, I concur with 3 what you said. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Would it -- would it possibly 5 have some interplay if, in fact, this department were 6 located out at Road and Bridge? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think it makes 8 any difference. I mean, I don't think the location would 9 make that much difference. I mean, I think that the -- even 10 if they're, you know, officed -- if this new department is 11 officed out in the Road and Bridge building, still one 12 department or the other has to be responsible, and 13 responsible for signing off on it, and it is a County 14 responsibility under the FEMA rules, as I understand it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: You think that falls more 16 under the County Engineer's auspices than under what you 17 anticipate staffing to be under Environmental Health? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it fits better, 19 just from a -- a work standpoint. I mean, the County 20 Engineer may disagree with me, but I think -- to me, I don't 21 see the relationship between floodplain, O.S.S.F., and solid 22 waste. I see a much closer relationship between floodplain 23 and subdivision -- or Road and Bridge Department, 24 specifically subdivision portion of that department. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And I agree with 10-14-03 59 1 that, and I think the -- also bearing on the decision about 2 where it should be located and budget is, where it's 3 located, there may be some efficiencies in having all of 4 these functions located at the Road and Bridge building. Or 5 that may not be feasible; I don't know. But there's 6 probably some work-sharing in terms of reception, clerical 7 work, and those sort of things that could occur, and there's 8 probably -- if it were located there. And probably, from a 9 process standpoint, if -- if O.S.S.F., floodplain, and 10 subdivision administration is located at the same place, it 11 makes some sense. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Functional efficiency. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Probably so. It's 14 not -- not a major issue, but it's an issue. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, I mean, to kind of 16 get everything out on the table, might as well just go 17 through the list, and we can -- 'cause some of these are 18 really -- they tie into later agenda items. Staffing. The 19 recommendation is from three to four. You can see we're 20 real specific on that one. It's hard to say how many we 21 need exactly. We clearly think that we need a department 22 head-slash-inspector. We definitely need a second 23 inspector. The Solid Waste inspector is currently a 24 part-time person. We don't recommend any changes at this 25 time, but that -- depending on what our current -- you know, 10-14-03 60 1 Mr. North, who's our current person, we recommend that he 2 stay in his position. But I don't know how -- if he's going 3 to stay there forever, and at that point, I think we may 4 make some adjustments there. Administrative clerk, 5 definitely need one. And the second administrative clerk is 6 what we put a question mark on. And, you know, I still am 7 not certain how many we need, if we need a second 8 administrative clerk or not. And the last time I talked to 9 Mr. Nicholson, he wasn't certain one way or the other. We 10 don't want to overstaff and we don't want to understaff. 11 The -- the big problem on this clerking is 12 aerobic systems. Currently, a large portion, if not almost 13 all of the time of one of the clerks at U.G.R.A., is 14 administering the aerobic systems, monitoring it, kind of 15 keeping track as to who's in violation, who's not in 16 violation, all of that whole area. And it's a fair amount 17 of work, there's no question. In fact, I think it's too 18 much work to -- the way it's currently being done, to put 19 that with one administrative clerk. I don't think you can 20 get the work done. The question is, can we, through 21 technology, figure out a much better way to do that? And if 22 we can, then I think we may be able to get by with one 23 administrative clerk. If we cannot, I think we need two. 24 And that's just something that -- you know, that's just kind 25 of my feeling on it. 10-14-03 61 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Some -- some data 2 we've looked at suggests that -- that either aerobic systems 3 have been very much oversold in Kerr County, or there's 4 something very unique about Kerr County soils. For example, 5 I'm told that -- that we have more aerobic systems in Kerr 6 County than Bexar County has. That seems disproportional to 7 me. I also looked at one of our contiguous counties, 8 Gillespie -- and we've talked about this before in here -- 9 and I see that we issue about twice as many permits as 10 Gillespie does. We have about twice the population, but the 11 administration of our O.S.S.F. programs cost four times as 12 much. If you use those same numbers, it ought to cost twice 13 as much, or it ought to cost something less than four times 14 as much. Probably Section 10, real estate transfer rule, 15 and the -- the large number of aerobic systems have 16 something to do with that. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: What about the -- the current 18 -- I know in years past, there were a considerably larger 19 number of -- a large proportion of aerobic systems. In the 20 last year or so, what -- what's been the proportion? My 21 sense is that the proportion of aerobic systems is on the 22 decline. Is that correct? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, from what we -- 24 you know, in talking, yes, that is correct. The problem is, 25 by law, we have to monitor it, all the ones that are out 10-14-03 62 1 there now. We have to keep track on a very regular basis, 2 and they -- and contracts on the maintenance, which is what 3 we're really talking about here, expire basically every day 4 of the year. And then, once they go noncompliant, we have 5 to have a -- you know, you have to notify them, or if they 6 do -- if they aren't -- well, if they're not in 7 noncompliance, we update the records, who's got the new 8 maintenance contract. If they go into noncompliance, then 9 we have to start sending out letters for noncompliance. It 10 just takes up time. And there's, you know, something over 11 100 or so in the county right now, so it's a -- you know, 12 you're looking at, you know, three a year -- three a day or 13 so that need action, you know, every day of the year. And, 14 obviously, we don't work every day of the year, so you're 15 talking about, you know -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Four -- four, probably. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Four or five a day are 18 coming -- action needs to be taken on. And then, as soon as 19 you have people that -- you know, that need a contract, you 20 have to start sending follow-up letters and all that stuff. 21 It just takes -- it does take time. And we are required by 22 T.C.E.Q. to keep these records, so it's kind of a -- I mean, 23 we clearly have to do it. If we can figure out a way to use 24 technology to do a whole lot more of this, or figure out a 25 different -- you know, something, I think we can do some 10-14-03 63 1 savings in staffing. If we can't, I think, you know, we're 2 going to need -- then, in my opinion, we're going to need 3 more than two clerks -- more than one clerk. Maybe still 4 not two full clerks. That's why you get this where you put 5 other ties back up into the other organization setup as to 6 what you put in this department, to get the most efficient 7 and productive use of the number of employees that we hire. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It makes sense to me 9 to start out with one clerk and then add to that once we can 10 see some history. To me, it would be foolish to start out 11 with two and not need two. It would make things difficult. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think the other 13 thing is -- and depending on how we go as to -- on the 14 technology side, you know, I've been visiting with Shaun 15 some and figuring out how to do something. I was -- I had 16 the opportunity this past weekend to spend time with a 17 college roommate of mine who's a whole lot smarter than I 18 am; he's a partner in a software company in Austin, and I 19 felt like one of the stupidest people on earth after that 20 weekend. He was talking about all this new technology and 21 stuff, and I was clueless. And after talking to him, I have 22 a whole lot of questions for Shaun, because I think we can 23 eliminate -- I mean, like, on desk computers, I don't see 24 any reason for them. So much more of the technology now, 25 things -- the way things are being done, and I'm sure 10-14-03 64 1 Shaun's aware of it, but I just wasn't until this weekend. 2 So, I think there are some things that we can really do to 3 the technology side that may improve the productivity of the 4 department. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I agree, and I think 6 through cross-training and through creating an organization 7 that works like a team rather than a hierarchy organization, 8 using technology, I think we can get by with one fewer 9 person. And I'm absolutely certain that if we start out 10 with four, we won't get back to three. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that's -- 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we start off with 13 three, we may find that we can't do as much as we thought 14 with technology and cross-training, but we can always add to 15 it easier than we can -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's my concern. I'd 17 rather start small and see the need to get larger, rather 18 than start larger and then try and figure out how you -- how 19 you downsize, 'cause that's a difficult proposition. I'm 20 sure all of you gentlemen are aware of that, the aspect of 21 utilizing another person to perform some of these clerical 22 functions that's been mentioned. Tell me where we are 23 there. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I haven't talked to 25 Franklin or Len Odom specifically about this, but if this 10-14-03 65 1 function -- O.S.S.F. and Solid Waste and floodplain were 2 located in the Road and Bridge building, then I think 3 there's a possibility that the -- that the receptionist/ 4 clerk there could assist with some of the duties that are 5 now being handled by the people in O.S.S.F. And, again, I 6 don't have any solid reason to believe that. It just occurs 7 to me that when you get the two things there located 8 together, that there's some synergy that occurs, and perhaps 9 some savings. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- you know, and 11 I -- what you're saying, I think, is true. But the other 12 side of that is, you have two department heads then with one 13 employee, and you end up with, who does the receptionist 14 work for, Road and Bridge or Environmental Health? And it 15 just it puts employees in a difficult situation, unless 16 we're going to come in and, you know, kind of get a little 17 bit more involved in how that structure's going to work out 18 there than we have customarily been. The other option could 19 be -- we have a lot of other -- you know, I mean, I guess 20 county departments that slowly are growing over time, and if 21 we put the O.S.S.F. downstairs, you know, the annex on this 22 side, we have -- you know, you have Maintenance, you have 23 Collections, you have County Treasurer office is down there. 24 You have a bunch of offices downstairs, and maybe there's a 25 way to get some kind of -- you know, some way to help 10-14-03 66 1 overall in all those departments, a receptionist-type person 2 to help direct people and do filing/typing, something like 3 that may be a way to -- I don't know. I'm not sure. I see 4 Glenn sitting here, you know. How much time is needed, you 5 know, if that would be a help or a hindrance to have an area 6 receptionist down there to kind of work. So, I mean, 7 there's a bunch of different options. I think we have a 8 great opportunity to kind of think about a little bit and 9 figure out the best way to do it. The unfortunate thing is, 10 we don't have the luxury of a whole lot of time. We do need 11 to get going on making some decisions today. Where they're 12 located, I think, probably has to almost be made, at least 13 from a startup standpoint, because Maintenance needs to -- 14 or we need to start setting up phone lines and doing any 15 kind of changes we need pretty quickly. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jon, just let me say 17 this. I see more problems with them being at Road and 18 Bridge than I do benefits. To me, I would make the cut 19 right there, and let's don't worry about getting into whose 20 office space is what and taking the sign-making room and all 21 that stuff that goes along with it. Just make a clean cut 22 right now and, I mean, start out with a new office and get 23 it over with. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I -- I see both 25 sides, and I have no problem -- 10-14-03 67 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do too. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- I have no problem with 3 that approach either. We do have a lot of space downstairs 4 that, with a little bit of time -- and, obviously -- and, 5 unfortunately, money, which we're short of, you know, some 6 things can be done. And I really think there's almost a 7 need for a reception person to help deal with a lot of these 8 departments; maybe just answer phones, do some things. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Wasn't -- wasn't the O.S.S.F. 10 function previously handled out of that same Road and Bridge 11 building? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: At a prior time? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, it was. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And there was some space 16 specifically allocated for that at the time that that was 17 done? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: What -- what utilization is 21 being made of that space right now? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not sure. Frank may 23 know. 24 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, I think the Court 25 authorized us to -- to move into that space. Before that, 10-14-03 68 1 the signs were made by a separate person in a separate 2 building, and since we -- Truby actually makes the -- Truby 3 and Barbara make the signs now. They do dual -- dual 4 purpose. The signs are in that -- sign room is in that 5 part. It was Environmental Health. And we also have a crew 6 space that we really didn't have before, that they have 7 lockers and they have, you know, a place to do their 8 paperwork, daily reports. And that's in the balance of that 9 -- that area that -- before they just did it sitting around 10 the reception area. Now they have a place that they can 11 actually go and have a desk and write their paperwork. So, 12 that's what we're using it for. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In the beginning, I 14 think when you put the Environmental office out there, I 15 think that it was a two-man department, a secretary and a -- 16 and so if you're talking about possibly -- you know, you're 17 talking about space out there, I'm not against it. I'm just 18 telling you that I -- I think there's more hurdles than we 19 want to jump by doing it that way. But the space issue out 20 there, if you can -- if you -- the possibility of going to 21 four, you're running out of room pretty quick. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you've got more space 24 out there, based upon the different options that I've looked 25 at here. You've got 1,000 square feet out there. 10-14-03 69 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you think that it 2 needs to be out there? If you do, say that. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it is -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's move on. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: It appears to me that that's 6 what the space was originally designed for. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was. I'm telling 8 -- I was here. I can tell you that it was. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: You've got -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we want to put it 13 out there, let's more forward and put it out there. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: You've got one area downstairs 15 of a little over 800, 816 according to this calculation, and 16 the other area that would require to be finished out is 770. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the issue, 18 though, is if you take the Road and Bridge, you got to do 19 something with Road and Bridge; you can't just take the 20 space and what they're using it for and not give them 21 someplace to do that work. I mean, that's -- you know, 22 it's -- yes, it's 1,000 square feet in that old area, but 23 what are you going to do with what they have? Just take it 24 away, not give them work space or lockers or sign machine? 25 I mean, that's the -- you know, it's -- so, I mean, there's 10-14-03 70 1 something less than 1,000 potential that's available, in my 2 mind, out there. I don't know if it's 700 or 500 or -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I haven't -- I haven't been 4 out to the space. I'd -- you know, other than what 5 Franklin's reported here this morning -- Glenn, you made the 6 sketches for the benefit of the Court? You just went out 7 and measured, rather than checked utilization? Or -- 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: No, I took the numbers off of 9 the original plans. Originally when the building was built, 10 there was 1,000 square foot that said "future space" when it 11 was originally built, and then that was closed in for 12 Environmental Health, that 1,000 square foot. That's the 13 numbers I used. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Where it's located, 15 from my point of view, is one of the least important 16 decisions we're going to make. I see some advantages to 17 being out there, the process advantages and maybe 18 work-sharing advantages. But more important is how we staff 19 it, what kind of environment we create, technological 20 improvements we need to get. So, I'm completely open-minded 21 on where we locate. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, I see the appeal 23 process as the most important issue. And -- I really do. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I hear you. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think my choice 10-14-03 71 1 -- my preference would be what Commissioner -- basically 2 what Commissioner Baldwin said, is that it's easier to put 3 it downstairs. Now, easy may not be the best, but I think 4 it's easier to put it downstairs. And I think that their -- 5 I think -- 'cause if you do put it out at Road and Bridge, 6 then we have to address what we're going to do with the 7 utilization that they're using of that space now, and you 8 can't just, I don't think, eliminate it and just say, "Well, 9 you didn't used to use it, so you're not going to use it 10 now." By that logic, you know, we -- that kind of undoes 11 all that we've done for trying to make space better for our 12 employees. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if it's being utilized, 14 obviously, that's a concern, and that function needs to -- 15 either provision needs to be made to relocate it, or it 16 needs to continue to utilize that space and we'll go 17 somewhere else. Tommy, you had a question or concern? 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, it's just a comment; 19 that this department is -- will be a revenue collection 20 point, and because of that, it would simplify that process 21 by it being in the courthouse. I mean, if we -- we 22 currently have on our accounting system a module that's 23 called -- for revenue collection. And, you know, it's 24 likely that we could utilize that module for the collections 25 of -- of revenue from that source. If -- if it's -- if it 10-14-03 72 1 is at Road and Bridge, I mean, it's not impossible for us to 2 do that, but it's more -- much more expensive. You know, we 3 would have to -- we would have to purchase some 4 communications equipment between, you know, Road and Bridge 5 and the courthouse to accomplish that. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, in the technology 7 area, is there any advantage -- I mean, 'cause we're not 8 sure exactly what software we're going to be using. I think 9 Shaun's looked to see if The Software Group even has 10 something that we can tie onto or some new software I think 11 he's looking at. Is there an advantage to being in the 12 courthouse or in Road and Bridge from a technology 13 standpoint? Hookup and just -- 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, if we utilize -- if we 15 utilize the mainframe, then there's definitely an advantage 16 to being here in the courthouse. I know that I just -- you 17 know, a dial-up modem for one user from there to the 18 courthouse is around $1,300, plus the cost of the line, and 19 that only allows for one person to use it at a time. If you 20 go to a multi-user communication, then -- then we're really 21 talking about high dollars. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Those two issues, 23 revenue collection and the technology connection issues, tip 24 it in favor of the courthouse for me. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Back on the 10-14-03 73 1 staffing a little bit, what Dave and I did, we got -- or 2 received or got copies of the job descriptions for all of 3 the employees at Road -- at U.G.R.A., and also we 4 downloaded -- Thea downloaded for us some of the state-type 5 job descriptions that are similar. Then we gave all that to 6 Barbara and said, "Here, Barbara, create some job 7 descriptions for us." Is -- do we have those, Barbara? 8 Were you able to make heads or tails out of what we gave 9 you? 10 MS. NEMEC: Well, I compared both of them, 11 and I just really wasn't sure that everything that was in 12 either one of them was really going to work for Kerr County. 13 So, I really need to go over them, like who they report to 14 and stuff like that. I just didn't want to take it upon 15 myself to put -- I mean, there's just a lot that's going 16 to -- they're going to be different. So, I did get Shaun to 17 install some software for me Friday to where I can just go 18 in there and do them up real quick. But, no, I don't have 19 them now. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How long will it take, do 21 you think, to get something -- I guess what the reason is, I 22 mean, I think in the -- on the staffing issue, which is one 23 of the more important, in my mind -- and I just preface this 24 by saying, based on my conversations with Greg Etter, they 25 would like to -- "they" being U.G.R.A. -- would like to hand 10-14-03 74 1 this off to the County as soon as possible. I think they -- 2 actually, the deadline was the 18th of this month. I've 3 talked to him about the 1st of November as being the date 4 that makes sense to me, that I thought would work within the 5 Commissioners Court schedule and meetings and things of that 6 nature, and a certain amount of, you know, what we need to 7 get done. So, I was hoping to get, today, or maybe we can 8 do it -- if Barbara can get it done by tomorrow, we could 9 recess on some of these items -- on this particular item 10 till tomorrow, and approve the job descriptions, so then we 11 can advertise for these positions. All of the personnel at 12 U.G.R.A. have expressed interest to Dave and I, they would 13 like to come work for the County. And I think our comment 14 to them has been that, you know, they're certainly -- we 15 would, you know, hope they apply, but it will be -- these 16 jobs are open to the public. 17 MS. NEMEC: I can have it by the morning. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think we can 19 probably get far enough along to give you the direction you 20 need as to what we need. Does that make -- does that work 21 with the Court? Trying to -- 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This has to do with 23 a deadline we need to place on ourselves about when we 24 advertise these jobs? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, because we need to 10-14-03 75 1 approve the positions and approve the advertising for the 2 positions. And I think -- I don't think we can do that 3 unless we have the actual job descriptions and know the 4 budget implications of those positions. We have talked -- 5 Dave and I have talked a little about it, and kind of -- our 6 recommendation was that an administrative clerk, if there is 7 just one, would be a -- a Step 17, and an inspector would be 8 a Step 19, and then the department head would be an at-will 9 employee. That's just -- that's -- and to come up with 10 those items, it's kind of looking at current salary levels 11 that are being paid, and -- and looking -- looking at that 12 on one side, also looking at responsibilities and how it 13 fits in with the other similar employees. Because -- well, 14 that's just how we kind of saw it. But it's really -- 15 it's -- certainly, Barbara has a lot more experience on 16 setting those job descriptions, and the job descriptions 17 dictate the step and the grade -- or the step, anyway. So, 18 to get, you know, to this, I guess we ought to -- we need 19 to -- 20 MS. SOVIL: Need to name your staff. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was going to make a 22 motion -- well, how did we do these agenda items? I would 23 make a motion that we initially staff this position with a 24 department head/inspector, an O.S.S.F. inspector, and one 25 administrative clerk. The Solid Waste inspector is already 10-14-03 76 1 on staff. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second the motion. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 4 the Environmental Health Department be staffed by a 5 department head-slash-inspector, an O.S.S.F. inspector, and 6 administrative clerk, all three of those being new 7 positions, and including the Solid Waste inspector, who is a 8 present position, part-time. Does that correctly state your 9 motion? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. And authorize the 11 County Treasurer to create these jobs -- such job 12 descriptions. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: And authorize the County 14 Attorney (sic) to create the new job descriptions. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Treasurer. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me. 17 MS. NEMEC: He can do it if he wants to. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: County Treasurer. You don't 19 want to do that, do you, Motley? 20 MR. MOTLEY: Will she give me the keys to the 21 safe? (Laughter.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. Any further question 23 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 24 raising your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10-14-03 77 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As to location, I think 5 we need to clear this up and give -- at least give 6 Maintenance a direction. There are two locations 7 downstairs. One is some existing office space in this 8 building, and second is some unused, unfinished space in the 9 basement of the annex. The, I guess, original estimate from 10 a cost standpoint of the annex was about $10,000? 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: Ten -- 10 to 12. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $10,000 to $12,000 to 13 finish out that space. And I guess the cost for the 14 downstairs space is -- is none; it's ready to use. But it's 15 about whether the configuration works, as well. That's the 16 issue there. And there may be a way to move some of the 17 other offices around to make more of a suite for this new 18 department. I think they -- I mean, there certainly is a -- 19 it needs to be a cohesive unit. You don't want one person 20 here, one person down there. I mean, it needs to be a -- 21 they need to be next to each other, the whole department. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I much favor 23 building out the -- the space in the annex, for -- for a 24 number of reasons. I think the -- the other space, the old 25 space down here, is inadequate for this purpose. I think if 10-14-03 78 1 you were going to make it an area where a work team can 2 perform this work, that you'd have to take some walls out 3 and do some things different. So, I'm going to support 4 building out the new space in the annex. Second issue 5 there -- I'm sorry. This -- this space that currently 6 exists is -- while it may be accessible, it's undesirable in 7 terms of the traffic coming in and out of the -- our 8 customers for permitting and -- and O.S.S.F. administration. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there -- there is 10 a plus to making more utilization of that far-end wall. It 11 gives -- makes it fairly easy to find the O.S.S.F., and with 12 some signage down there, I think this new department can be 13 found pretty easily by the public. We may have to look at 14 the parking plan a little bit -- one of our favorite 15 topics -- to make sure that there are some reserved spaces 16 for customers near that door downstairs, or one of the two 17 doors downstairs. And there may be enough already; I 18 haven't really done a check down there on that. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You could take eight 20 or ten of the Sheriff's parking places. That should be 21 plenty. He's got a dozen or so down there. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, that will work. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you remember, when 24 we -- when we built out the -- that was a joke, Rusty. We 25 built out the Probation offices, Glenn performed some 10-14-03 79 1 miracles down there and he used prisoners -- some prisoners 2 to do that. We have an excellent facility, nice-looking 3 facility, and very cheap. I don't know if that's what you 4 had on your mind or not. 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. That's without 6 labor, those numbers that I gave. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's without labor? 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. There's a few trade 9 items that could not be done, but the rest can. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I make a motion that we 12 designate the unused portion of the basement of the annex 13 for the new Environmental Health Department. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 16 the space that's currently not finished out be finished out 17 for utilization for the new Environmental Health Department, 18 that being the space immediately adjacent to the Treasurer, 19 the same side of the hall, which -- but at the very end of 20 the hall. Glenn? 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: Correct me if I'm wrong. I 22 heard earlier that -- possibly November 1st? 23 MR. DAVIS: 2004. 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: In the interim, what would be 25 done? 10-14-03 80 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If -- we haven't talked; 2 we don't have an alternative plan. My idea would be that we 3 may shift the responsibility and see if U.G.R.A. will allow 4 them to stay where -- you know, or use that space if we're 5 using some of those employees, or maybe use the other space 6 downstairs in the interim. 7 MR. HOLEKAMP: Oh, okay. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, I -- I 9 acknowledge that we have to do something there, and we don't 10 have a definite plan. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The General Manager 12 of the U.G.R.A. and the president of the board have both 13 assured us that they're going to help us make a smooth 14 transition and that nothing will drop through the cracks. 15 You know, I have every confidence that they'll work with us 16 on this. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We may have to delay the 18 date for, you know, two weeks or something. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just one other 20 observation on this motion about the space. We probably 21 have some 15 to 17 file cabinets that -- that contain 22 administrative materials and files. There's a possibility 23 that some of those will be located across the hall from 24 where the office space is, if that's administratively 25 feasible in terms of work process. 10-14-03 81 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why are you looking at 2 me? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Make sure you're still there. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would -- hopefully 5 that wouldn't have to happen, 'cause I see that across the 6 hall as a -- as really more of a storage area, that even -- 7 you know, we're talking about these offices downstairs, a 8 little suite downstairs. Two of those offices are full of 9 storage-type stuff that really needs to be moved down there. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Like, right now. And 12 we've all kind of designated that -- that area of the 13 building as storage; we've already started the storage, 14 screen wires and all that, and I'd like to see that continue 15 there. But if -- if it has to be, it has to be. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we can certainly 17 try to configure the space. I think we'll have -- actually, 18 there'll be another discussion at the end as to how we get 19 from that broad motion -- or this broad motion to coming up 20 with a floor plan, or work with Glenn on, you know, some 21 other issues. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 23 discussion on the motion? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: God, what motion? Is 25 there really a motion? 10-14-03 82 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sorry. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: See, that's why I checked to 4 see if you're still there. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I appreciate it. 6 Appreciate it. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion, 8 signify by raising your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Anybody remember what 13 the motion was? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Space in the annex. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Space, okay. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the remaining portion 19 of 13 ties in with 14 insofar as the organization. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Would that not be correct? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item is consideration and 24 discussion of the administration of the Kerr County 25 Floodplain Program. 10-14-03 83 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's just a matter of -- 2 one, I think we need to pass an order for notifying the 3 Upper Guadalupe River Authority that we are taking 4 floodplain from their -- that's the first motion. I will 5 make a motion that we -- that Kerr County administer the 6 Kerr County Floodplain Program. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: And serve notice to that 8 effect on U.G.R.A.? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 12 this Court resume administration of the Floodplain Program 13 and notify U.G.R.A. to that effect. Any further question or 14 discussion of the motion? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Got a question. Are 16 you going to have the Judge write them an official letter or 17 let them read it in the newspaper or what? How are they 18 going to be notified? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would recommend that we 20 add to the order that the County Judge write a letter and 21 put a copy of the order -- or just write a letter. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 23 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 24 your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10-14-03 84 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the second part of 5 that is where to put it in the County's organization. And, 6 you know, I think it fits in Road and Bridge. I don't know 7 what Road and Bridge thinks. I think we really need to talk 8 with them a little bit, at least get some input, but I think 9 that's the correct -- where it needs to go. And I see 10 Stuart's here; he's the current administrator of that 11 program. How -- how often does something come in -- I mean, 12 how -- is it, like, a daily occurrence? 13 MR. BARRON: Three or four times a week, 14 they'll come in, and then usually once a day you'll have a 15 call, something like that. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think the -- I 17 mean, two options in my mind are to put it in the new 18 department or put it at Road and Bridge. And I think we can 19 put notice that we're going to take it back, and then I 20 think we need to discuss with Road and Bridge officially as 21 to -- you know, as to how it's going to work best. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The September '03 23 activity report from U.G.R.A. shows floodplain 24 determinations, year-to-date, 17. I think there are 25 probably multiple contacts with the administrator for each 10-14-03 85 1 determination, but it doesn't appear to be a whole lot of 2 work, a lot of time consumed on it. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It seems to me that 4 the floodplain program, what would apply to it more would 5 be, are you going to allow a septic system to be in a 6 certain area? Is that area -- sit down, Zeke, I'm looking 7 at somebody. (Laughter.) 8 MR. McCORMACK: Sorry. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you going to let a 10 septic system be put in a floodplain? Is this floodplain 11 area -- when they come in and apply for a septic system, is 12 it in the floodplain area? Seems like that that's the 13 important part of the floodplain program. 14 MR. BARRON: The actual floodplain program -- 15 I guess I can tell you who I am. Stuart Barron. The actual 16 floodplain program is more concerned with building 17 structures in the floodplain than any septic systems. 18 They're more worried about life and limb than contaminating 19 flood waters. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. And what I'm 21 getting at, would it -- would it fit better with the 22 O.S.S.F. program? Or would it fit better with Road and 23 Bridge? 24 MR. BARRON: Depending on who's reviewing the 25 applications. You do have a County Engineer; he is more 10-14-03 86 1 qualified to review hydraulic studies than your average 2 layman. He would be able to see if it's a -- if it's 3 legitimate. That does take an engineer to perform that -- 4 that review, or somebody with that background. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Franklin, you got 6 any views on it? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Not -- it really doesn't 8 matter. I think, across the state, I think a lot of County 9 Engineers' offices do floodplain, so I think it's a 10 legitimate thing that could be done. It would just be a 11 matter of training to become certified in it. I think 12 that's what Stuart did when he started off. 13 MR. BARRON: Yes, sir. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: I think FEMA has some courses; 15 just have to take that and just go from there, get the 16 proper, you know, documentation that they have. So, it 17 doesn't really matter, I don't think, to me. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you ask the County 19 Engineer to do it, you certainly have to compensate him for 20 it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, bingo. I think 23 you would. 24 MR. JOHNSTON: Probably more time or 25 something. We'd have to talk about it. If you're talking 10-14-03 87 1 about -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just giving them 3 my opinion. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean, I don't 5 disagree with that. The other option is, what do we do with 6 the County Surveyor? He's very qualified at looking at this 7 data; we could contract with the County Surveyor. If the 8 County Surveyor is even -- you know, I have no idea if 9 that's even a viable option, but it's -- you know, there is 10 another position there of someone who is currently very 11 qualified to look at that data, seems to me. But I just -- 12 I still think it fits better at Road and Bridge. As to 13 compensation involved, I mean, indirectly, you're going to 14 compensate no matter where you put the position. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And that's probably 16 a minor point. The reception function and scheduling, 17 coordinating might be able to be absorbed by the Road and 18 Bridge clerk there. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do we have a motion? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not yet. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I haven't heard one. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll make that 24 motion, that we -- let's see. We've made a motion -- we've 25 already approved the motion to take it back, so I'm going to 10-14-03 88 1 make a motion that we locate the floodplain administration 2 with the Road and Bridge Department. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 5 seconded that the floodplain administration occur as a 6 function at the Road and Bridge Department. Any further 7 question or discussion? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm going to vote with 9 you, because possibly -- I just don't think you've done 10 enough research on this one, but I'm going to go with you 11 anyway. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 13 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 14 your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And in response to 20 Commissioner Baldwin's statement, you know, if we need to 21 revisit that, we can revisit it. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Living document. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 15, consideration and 24 discussion of authorizing approving new positions and job 25 descriptions. The sense that I got a moment ago is we're 10-14-03 89 1 going to hold that open for the present time until we have 2 the proposed job descriptions in front of us for discussion. 3 Is that -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that tomorrow 5 morning? That's the last I heard. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that hasn't been 7 established yet. It may be tomorrow afternoon, depending on 8 what time we quit here. But -- but that's something that my 9 sense is that we're going to hold open for right now, and 10 we'll reschedule that. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: End of the meeting today. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, I would -- 14 if the Treasurer is available, I mean, we can do it -- 15 tomorrow morning's ideal, from my standpoint. 16 MS. NEMEC: I'll work late if I have to, to 17 get it done. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are we coming back in 19 the morning? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think so. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: It'll be late morning, if so. 24 I've got cases to hear in the morning; hopefully be through 25 about 11:00 or so. Next, Item 16, consider and discuss 10-14-03 90 1 approving a budget for the new Kerr County O.S.S.F. program 2 and approve budget amendments with respect to the same. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You have there in 4 your material a draft proposed 2003/2004 budget for the 5 Environmental Health Department, and these data were put 6 together looking at historical data from Kerr County, what 7 it costs for Kerr County to administer the program, and the 8 data -- that historical data up until -- to-date that it 9 costs the U.G.R.A. And what you see there is a budget that 10 fits this scheme that was earlier approved -- staffing 11 scheme -- of a department manager-slash-inspector, an 12 inspector, a part-time solid waste inspector, and one 13 clerical person. The total amount -- total annual operating 14 expense is $130,000 for -- for that size budget for that 15 size staffing. When you -- then, from that $130,000, I've 16 subtracted the current Environmental Health budget, which is 17 Solid Waste, of 15.8 thousand. I've subtracted the current 18 budget amount for Kerr County's share of O.S.S.F./floodplain 19 administration, $64,000, and I've subtracted the projected 20 fee revenue. This fee revenue assumed that there would be 21 no rules that are stricter than the state requires in 22 Section 10, and that's $77,000 a year in projected fee 23 revenue, which totals to a net operating expense savings of 24 $27,810. What that means is that -- that with this budget, 25 we would be able to operate the O.S.S.F./ Floodplain 10-14-03 91 1 administration functions for some $28,000 a year less than 2 it would have cost had we not operated it. And I've 3 included startup costs. I estimated build-out of office 4 space of $13,500. It may come in less than that; it might 5 be $10,000 to 12,000. I roughly estimate the purchase of 6 vehicles from the U.G.R.A. at $10,000, and the purchase of 7 office and computer equipment of $6,500, and the total 8 startup costs would be $30,000. The net impact on our 9 2003/2004 budget would be a minus $2,190. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the other thing 11 that Commissioner Nicholson didn't mention -- he spent more 12 time on this page than I did, but he also looked at -- 13 Commissioner Williams previously did a -- a report and 14 compared other county -- I mean, a much bigger-scale report, 15 and I think this is basically in line with a lot of his 16 numbers as well. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I think it's -- it's 19 as good a going-in budget as I think we can come up with, 20 and I think that with the -- you know, where it is, we just 21 basically transfer that $64,000 into this budget. And -- 22 well, I guess, on the revenue, I mean, how -- does the 23 revenue, Tommy, go into the general fund? Or can we -- or 24 does it go into this -- 25 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, it -- there are two 10-14-03 92 1 options. Currently, the revenues for Solid Waste go into an 2 account for that purpose in the General Fund. We can do the 3 same thing with these revenues. I mean, we can -- can 4 define whatever revenues we want to define in the General 5 Fund revenue, or we can establish a separate fund for -- for 6 this program, either one. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there any benefit 8 or -- or detriment to doing it one way or the other? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: No. All of the -- all those 10 numbers are going to come together in the same category when 11 -- once we do our financial statements. Under GASB-34, the 12 statement of activities consolidates programs that have to 13 do with environmental programs, so whatever -- whatever -- 14 whatever program you have that fits that category will 15 consolidate into that anyway. So, wherever we put it in the 16 County system really doesn't matter, as far as the final 17 outcome. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: If -- if -- you know, if you 20 want -- if you want to -- if it's not self-supporting and -- 21 and we use tax revenues to offset the balance -- the cost of 22 the program, then it could be that you want to show on our 23 budget that there is a specific tax revenue to support that 24 program. If you -- if you just -- if you form a department 25 like we have now for -- for Solid Waste, then you don't have 10-14-03 93 1 that -- that definition. It's immaterial to me. I mean, 2 it's essentially -- we'll account for it essentially the 3 same way. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In my opinion, I don't 5 see the need to set up a separate tax rate for this purpose, 6 but I do like the idea of being able to track very closely 7 and see how close we are to a pay-as-you-go department. So, 8 you know, whichever. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: We can set up revenue line 10 items in the General Fund, non-tax revenue, you know, 11 specifically for that purpose, and we can have as many 12 revenue line items as we wish to. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: And dedicate those revenues 15 back to the expense -- operating expenses of this 16 department? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: No, that would not happen. 18 If -- if it goes -- if those revenues get receipted into the 19 General Fund, non-tax revenue, it's just one -- one large 20 amount of funds for maintenance and operation. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that makes a difference 22 whether or not we approve a budget on the basis of a 21 -- 23 $2,200 deficit or whether or not we increase that by an 24 estimated $78,000 or $77,000. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, there's provision in 10-14-03 94 1 the Government Code that allows you to increase the budget 2 by -- by revenues or future revenues that you don't 3 anticipate when the budget's finalized, so -- so when those 4 revenues come in -- excuse me -- we could increase the 5 budget by the anticipated amount on the revenues that we're 6 going to receive. So -- and I'm thinking that -- that the 7 increase in the budget will be the sum of that, of -- of the 8 estimated revenues plus the $64,000 that's already there. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It seems to me that, I 10 mean, we probably have enough -- we're very close to having 11 enough money budgeted for these items already, and I'd 12 rather -- rather than increasing the budget, I'd just rather 13 move the current money that we have on around, and then if 14 we end up with a -- in other words, take the $64,000 15 currently budgeted to go to U.G.R.A., put that -- use that 16 as the basis for most of this new budget. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: $2,000 on a $130,000 18 budget is -- could be $5,000 or could be $10,000 the other 19 way. So -- so, it's essentially zero. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, sometime during 21 the year, we may have to do a budget amendment, increase the 22 budget, but we may not. We just don't know. And we're -- I 23 think we're pretty close -- if our projections are accurate, 24 we're close -- real close one way or the other. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: As a general 10-14-03 95 1 principle, I see this as being an example of where we ought 2 to apply a principle of user-pay. I could make an argument 3 that all taxpayers ought to have to pay for a function that 4 protects the environment, but I think there's a better 5 argument that people who own or build septic systems ought 6 to be the ones paying for it. And it would take -- that's 7 not something we can do now. I think we ought to consider 8 it at our next -- next budget deliberations. It would take 9 something on the order of a 20 or 25 percent increase in 10 fees to make this a fee-based administration. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Do I hear a motion that the 12 $64,000 for environmental services -- contract services 13 that's in another budget account be transferred into the 14 Environmental Health budget, and that that sum, together 15 with antic -- that budget be increased by the $64,000 plus 16 the $77,000-dollar projected fee revenue? Do I hear a 17 motion to that effect? 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I make that motion. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Any questions or discussion? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. You're just 25 talking about dealing with the transfer of the money that's 10-14-03 96 1 already in the budget right now? You're not talking about 2 adopting this budget on this page right here? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Not specifically, no. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I mean, the 5 motion has to be specific. Are you talking about just 6 transferring the money that's already in the budget into 7 this department? That's -- that's what the order is. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. That's what the motion 9 is. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only increase would 11 be the -- or if he's increasing the budget by the revenue 12 side of $77,000, that's not in the current budget. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I had some 14 questions about these numbers -- Number 4 that you've -- 15 those salary numbers. Are those present numbers? Is that 16 the salaries that they're presently making? Or -- 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, that's 18 an estimate of where these jobs would fit in our salary 19 schedule. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we're not adopting 21 an estimate today, are we? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And an issue we need 25 to deal with there -- I think it's, perhaps, a detail -- is 10-14-03 97 1 whether or not we need a step increase schedule placement to 2 people who have experience. But I think we can deal with 3 that. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that's what she's 5 going to do with us tomorrow. We'll see real numbers to 6 plug in. Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can't until we -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- until we almost 10 determine the people, as well, and if they're going to get 11 any additional grade increases for experience. We really 12 can't do a final budget. But I think we could direct -- 13 give Tommy this and let him come up with a preliminary 14 budget so we can start having something to look at. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 17 discussions on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 18 signify by raising your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. I gather 23 from the comments made towards the end of that discussion 24 that we don't want to move forward with any specific budget 25 items, but rather wait until we have the personnel issues a 10-14-03 98 1 little bit more refined? Would that be correct, gentlemen? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be correct for me. I 3 won't vote for something that we don't know what it is. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We'll move on to Item 5 1.17, consider and discuss authorizing the Kerr County 6 O.S.S.F. committee to negotiate acquisition of certain 7 property to facilitate the setting up of the new O.S.S.F. 8 program and department. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded 12 that -- to approve the agenda item. Any further question or 13 discussion? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would like some 15 limitations put on it. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You are the committee. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Two on the committee. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two on committee. The 20 idea was that the computers -- you know, basically the 21 things that were listed in Dave's projected budget; the 22 office equipment, the vehicles, computers, that type of 23 stuff. And also to get with, I guess -- I guess Maintenance 24 actually has authority, once we give him a budget, to expend 25 those funds for that -- you know, to start the renovation. 10-14-03 99 1 But that's what it is, you know, the kind of -- those are 2 the numbers that were basically used in the budget presented 3 to Commissioner Nicholson. I think he's ready to vote. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 5 discussion? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have one more comment. 7 On the vehicles, the two vehicles that they currently have 8 are a '99 and a 2000 Jeep Cherokee, and our recommendation 9 would be that we buy those vehicles from U.G.R.A. We don't 10 know the exact amount, but it appears it's about $5,000 11 apiece, the value those vehicles would be worth. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 13 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 14 your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carried. Do we need to 19 come back under any O.S.S.F. items under Item 12? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think so. I 21 think we pretty much have it set. I think the -- but I 22 think we may want -- you know, we may want to leave that 23 open for when we come back to visit the -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, we can do that. Item 25 18, consider and discuss approval of the 14th amendment and 10-14-03 100 1 extension of the City/County Firefighting Agreement, and 2 authorize County Judge to sign the same. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, the only -- the 4 only change here in the amendment itself is in the numbers, 5 from the $100,000 to $125,000. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Per year. That's correct. 7 That's my understanding. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 11 the agenda item be approved. Any further question or 12 discussion? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question, and it 14 goes to a comment that I had related to this contract from 15 someone in the community, as to what we actually get for 16 that $125,000, and it's -- the issue was that it was a -- 17 you know, my thought was that there's an area of 18 responsibility, a map that is attached to the contract, and 19 the Kerrville Fire Department's responsible for that area. 20 Well, what I was told was that they thought the 21 interpretation was that, in that area, Kerrville was 22 required to send one and only one truck, and then the other 23 volunteer fire departments had to send trucks in for the 24 second. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's basically it. 10-14-03 101 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- I mean, but 2 there's a big difference between that, 'cause I think there 3 was a situation not long ago when maybe a -- there was a 4 fire, I believe in your precinct, where only one truck went. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that's what 6 they send, one pumper. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, one pumper. But 8 that's -- you know, that's really -- I mean, then that's a 9 little different than I thought in my mind. Maybe we've 10 talked about this. I mean, I thought they were giving us 11 fire coverage, and they're really not. They're sending one 12 pumper until -- and then waiting for Turtle Creek, Center 13 Point, Comfort, Hunt, someone else to get there with more. 14 So, I mean, the -- you know, we talk a lot about the 15 response time, that it's, you know, seven minutes to get to 16 Nimitz, or whatever it was -- five minutes. Well, it's to 17 get to that area with one truck. Doesn't mean they're going 18 to really, you know, substantially help with the fire. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you suggesting that maybe 20 we should defer approval until we get clarification on that? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know that we need 22 -- I think I'm bringing it up more not to defer approval; 23 it's just something that we need to look at. I think we're 24 probably too far along to -- to not approve this contract, 25 whatever it says, but I think it's something we really need 10-14-03 102 1 to look at, and as the City continues to increase the amount 2 that we're paying, I really think that the service needs to 3 be looked at. I think if the service is like -- you know, 4 like I was told it is, I have a little bit of a problem with 5 that. I can see that there -- there may be a limitation to 6 the amount of resources the City puts into a call, but I 7 don't think that one pumper, in my mind, is enough. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I agree. And I 9 think we've all kind of said that. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Between now and the 11 next budget period, and early -- early in the next budget 12 period, I think we need input from the City and from the 13 Kerrville Area Rural Firefighters Association, and our own 14 intelligence about it, and take a hard look at how we 15 provide fire protection. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. However, I 17 saw -- I saw it in action last week, across from Nimitz 18 School, that mobile home park down there. I just happened 19 to be in the area when it happened, and went down there and 20 watched this thing unfold. The City got there first, and 21 because there's no fire department in the Kerrville South 22 area, they got there first and attacked the fire, and 23 therefore -- there's no fire hydrants down in there. There 24 is on Ranchero Road. So, what happened is Turtle Creek got 25 in and Center Point came up and put their trucks -- filled 10-14-03 103 1 up from the fire hydrant up on Ranchero Road by the school 2 and just shuttled it down there, and kept feeding the city 3 truck that was -- you know, that actually pumps 1,500, 4 1,700 gallons of water per minute, kind of thing, and the 5 City guys stayed there and did all the -- did all the 6 mop-up, all the inspections and -- you know, we got our 7 money's worth there. But I don't see that very often. But 8 I was -- I was real impressed with -- I mean, they didn't go 9 down there and knock the fire down and then leave and turn 10 it over to somebody. It wasn't that at all. Very, very 11 professionally done. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's a real good 14 example of how the two work together. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, absolutely. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Probably neither one 17 of them, by their-self, could have been successful. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly right. 19 Because of lack of water, more than anything. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move -- I move that 23 we -- 24 MS. SOVIL: You already have a motion. 25 MS. PIEPER: You already have, sir. 10-14-03 104 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've already done 2 that. I tell you, this is good medication for this head 3 cold. Good medication. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any -- any further question or 5 discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 6 signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Ms. Clerk. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item, consideration and 13 discussion of the rescission of Commissioners Court Order 14 Number 17103 dated February 9, 1987, relating to the status 15 of the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Board. That 16 item, if you'll recall, deals with the status of whether or 17 not that board is or is not an advisory board. Our latest 18 information from the County Attorney is that, while he 19 thinks it's -- based upon the legal status of that board, he 20 thinks it's not necessarily required that we rescind that 21 order, but it would be advisable. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- certainly, I think 23 we need to do it, but I think we need to get on a fast track 24 as to how we're going to operate out there. You know, it's 25 one -- and if we're going to take proactive -- I guess, a 10-14-03 105 1 proactive motion to cancel that, that means that as of -- in 2 my mind, as of the minute we vote and cancel it, that that 3 board has all the authority, which is in conflict to the 4 City's current operation and their interpretation, as I 5 understand it. So, you know, I think, all of a sudden, that 6 we are -- I don't have a problem with doing it. I'm just 7 saying, all of a sudden, we're putting any operation at the 8 airport, any decision made out there, in limbo, in my mind, 9 as to how it's going to be handled, because we're saying 10 it's the Airport Board. And the City, I presume, says the 11 City, so -- 12 MS. BAILEY: No, I think -- can I comment on 13 that? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't mean the City, 15 but, you know, that is advisory only. 16 MS. BAILEY: No, the City's position is that, 17 in 1987, there was an order passed that it was advisory. 18 Upon reflection, review, and consultation with the County 19 Attorney and the County Judge, it's our opinion that what 20 Judge Tinley just alluded to is correct, which is that the 21 board is, in fact, not advisory just by the fact that we 22 thought that it was, because the Transportation Code says 23 that it is -- that the board is a managerial board that has 24 all the powers to operate the airport that either one of us 25 entities have alone. 10-14-03 106 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's good to hear. But 2 the -- I still think we need to be -- it is a change in the 3 way the operations have been handled out there, and I think 4 that -- and there's been talk of increasing the size of the 5 board and some other things. I just think that we need to 6 make sure that everyone's on the same page, and, all of a 7 sudden, that that board is about to be handed a whole bunch 8 of authority that they didn't think they had. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, your point is well-made, 10 Commissioner, that -- if the board is not, in fact, going to 11 actually handle the operations out there, that it's within 12 their legal authority to do, then there needs to be steps 13 taken affirmatively for that board to enter into interlocal 14 agreements or whatever, or appropriate arrangements may be 15 necessary for however those operations are going to be 16 conducted. You're exactly right. But I think we need to 17 solidify where we are, and I think we now, for possibly the 18 first time in some period of time, all agree where we are 19 right now. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Which is a real good starting 22 point. If -- you know, we just got to figure out where we 23 want to go. But we now know where we are. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: May I ask a question? 10-14-03 107 1 Back in my mind somewhere, down the hallways of my mind, I 2 remember that the people of Kerr County voted to create this 3 board. Is that true or not true? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is not true? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, that's out the 8 window. Court Order Number 17103, which I voted on in 1987, 9 approved that the board is an advisory board only. To me, 10 that establishes where this county is with that board out 11 there, and I don't see any reason to change that. Why would 12 we want to change that? 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: In general, I'm 14 uncomfortable with -- with several arrangements we have 15 where, in particular, we jointly operate functions with the 16 City, and our sole role seems to be to providing funds once 17 a year to those things. I'm not singling out the airport as 18 an example of that; there are other examples, too. So, I'd 19 like to -- I'd like to know more about this before we give 20 up what little direct responsibility we have for it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy's waving his hand. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. I -- I want to make -- 23 I want to be clear on -- the decision is that this person or 24 our person is in an advisory capacity? 25 MS. BAILEY: No, not our person. The board. 10-14-03 108 1 MR. TOMLINSON: The board? Well, I mean -- 2 well, it makes a difference for us for -- for liability 3 purposes. If -- if we -- under our coverage with TAC, if we 4 have a person that's on a board that's anything other than 5 an advisory capacity, we have to name that person on our 6 professional liability coverage in order for that person to 7 be covered. 8 MS. BAILEY: Then I think you probably would 9 have to name them, according to my understanding. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: So, if they're something 11 other than advisory, then -- then we need to do that. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm all for that. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Currently, as it stands, that 14 person is not named on -- on our public officials liability. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that -- I just 16 think that there's -- I would almost be, really, more in 17 favor of -- we can have a joint meeting with City and do 18 these all at one time, figure out where we're going. I 19 mean, I -- clearly, I think the way it's been done is not 20 proper and not legal, probably, and -- from a technical 21 standpoint, but I think there's no intent. And I don't 22 know -- I mean, I think that -- I just want to make sure 23 nothing falls through the cracks in this whole process, and 24 that the -- you know, the City and the County are, you know, 25 working together in this to get, you know, this resolved. 10-14-03 109 1 And I was afraid that if we take unilateral action, that, 2 all of a sudden, you know, the City may do something a 3 little bit different, and then it just seems like it's a 4 confusion thing. And if we know where we're going -- I 5 think, as the Judge said, it's the first time we all agree 6 as to where we are, and we can develop a plan and then have 7 a joint meeting and vote -- both vote on them and pass them 8 at the same time. Seems a better way to do it. Or at 9 least, you know, that's my understanding of everything. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That may be a good approach. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you talking about 12 designating the board as an advisory board only? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, from what I 14 understand, that's -- we can't do that. That -- we don't 15 have any authority to designate that board as advisory. We 16 can designate them advisory, but they're not -- they are the 17 responsible board for that operation of that airport, and we 18 are not and the City is not. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And is that because 20 that -- of the law at that time when they were founded? 21 MS. BAILEY: Can I address that for a moment? 22 This -- this -- the real crux of the matter doesn't have to 23 do with either the City or the County, but has to do with 24 state law and the Attorney General. The Attorney General 25 has made a ruling at some point in the past -- I can't 10-14-03 110 1 remember the year of the opinion; it was in the '80's, I 2 think -- that a county cannot lease airport land without 3 competitively bidding it. So, the only way that property at 4 the jointly-owned airport can be leased without going 5 through the competitive bidding process is either through 6 the operation under the auspices of an airport board, which 7 is what we're operating under now, through Chapter 22 of the 8 Transportation Code, or the airport authority, which is what 9 the election was about, which is what you were alluding to, 10 which we never -- well, that's not in existence, so I'll 11 only confuse the matter if I talk about that. But, 12 basically, the only way property can be leased without 13 competitive bid is going through the airport board that 14 we're operating under now, and then the board has that 15 authority to do the leasing. And that's how the County gets 16 out of having to do the competitive bid process, 'cause 17 you're saying, "We're not leasing it; we are joint owners 18 with the board doing our management, and the board is 19 leasing it." 20 The only other way we could do that is if we 21 undid that operation and said, "We're no longer operating 22 under the Transportation Code; we're going to operate it 23 under the interlocal agreement. And, under that agreement, 24 we have determined that this board is going to be advisory." 25 We could do that. The problem with that is that then you 10-14-03 111 1 get back to the fact that then the County is a lessor and 2 has to go through competitive bidding. And it's pretty well 3 accepted by everybody that if we have to competitively bid 4 land leasing out there, it's going to stifle development at 5 the airport so much that it really would be pointless to try 6 to continue to develop the airport. Does that make sense? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 8 MS. BAILEY: So that's why we're in this 9 bind, and we're trying to get the Attorney General -- I've 10 asked David if he'll write an opinion request to the 11 Attorney General asking them to reconsider that opinion 12 about counties not being able to lease airport land without 13 competitive bidding, but as it stands right now, you are 14 required to competitively bid the land if you're in an 15 interlocal agreement. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Weighing the 17 competitive bidding issue against giving a nonelective 18 group, possibly, the authority to raise taxes, I mean, 19 that's a no-brainer to me. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: They don't have the ability to 21 impose any taxes. 22 MS. BAILEY: They have none. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm not 24 convinced of that at all. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Perhaps not 10-14-03 112 1 directly, but they -- they have the authority to increase -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're out there 3 flirting with that. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- increase costs 5 out there. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- thank you for 7 your explanation. The -- I don't want to -- this may sound 8 ugly, and I really don't mean it ugly. I'm going to quote 9 some of your stuff early on in the year. There is politics, 10 and then there's business. This is strictly business. We 11 tried to meet with our board members, and I haven't heard 12 another word from them. If our board people that we've 13 appointed can't seem to get in here within a couple of 14 months and meet with this board, we need to remove them and 15 put people on there that will respond to us. Simple as 16 that. If that's ugly, I apologize, but it needs to be done. 17 We're not -- those people need to be in here talking to us 18 about this stuff, and if they're not going to come, we need 19 to remove them and put people in there that will. Simple. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I gather the sense is no -- no 22 motion is to be offered on this item. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we don't want to 24 let it die, either. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think it's 10-14-03 113 1 going to. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like Letz' idea 4 about us getting together and having a visit with the City. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I do too. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that would be 7 good. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that may be the 9 solution to this -- this whole concept and problem that 10 we're -- we're all faced with the same problem. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The City's in the same boat 13 that we are, with the exception that they are the de facto 14 operators of that facility out there, and that's 15 considerably different from where we are. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is it their turn to 17 buy dinner? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, absolutely. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I want to meet 20 with them pretty quick. 21 MS. BAILEY: I'll pass that on. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do we need to meet 23 some of the board members before we meet with the City? Or 24 do we know enough about the issue? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know how you 10-14-03 114 1 do that. We've tried that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We tried. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Send the Sheriff out after 4 them. 5 MS. SOVIL: It's not the board members' 6 fault. I mean, we just didn't get it all put together to 7 call that one meeting, but they've not been contacted since 8 then, unless Mr. Williams or Mr. Nicholson has done so. I 9 have not done so since the meeting did not come together 10 before. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly the 12 point. The meeting did not come together before, when we 13 asked them to come in and meet with us. 14 MS. SOVIL: They weren't available. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item, consideration and 16 discussion, approval of the contract between the Office of 17 Court Administration and Kerr County. This item has to do 18 with the administrative judge. As all of you know, Judge 19 Ables is the administrative judge for the 6th Administrative 20 Judicial District, and the Office of Court Administration 21 provides certain reimbursements to Kerr County for that 22 purpose; in this case, not to exceed $39,864. Actually, 23 that is over a two-year period, beginning September 1 of 24 this year through August 31, '05. That's the state fiscal 25 for that biannually. 10-14-03 115 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval, 2 authorize County Judge to sign same. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 5 approve the contract between the Office of Court 6 Administration and Kerr County and authorize the County 7 Judge to sign the same. Any further question or discussion? 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, is -- this is 9 routine? This is not a change -- or this is not new? It's 10 the same way we've done this in the past? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Correct. Any further 12 questions or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 13 signify by raising your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 18 is consider and discuss approval of the agreement between 19 City and County for use of Hotel Occupancy Tax revenue for 20 the improvement of convention center facilities. That 21 translates to the Hill Country Youth Exposition Center, as 22 it's titled, and authorize -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're going to talk 24 about this. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: -- authorize the County Judge 10-14-03 116 1 to sign the same. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just so thankful 3 that someone -- I don't know where this came from. Does 4 this come from the City? 5 MS. BAILEY: What, the contract? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 7 MS. BAILEY: Probably. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The City is finally -- 9 are the only ones that have the guts to call this thing a 10 convention center. Finally. I've been begging Mr. Williams 11 here to call it what it is for -- or what he's wanting it to 12 be for years, and someone has finally come out and said the 13 improvement of convention center facilities. I'm thankful 14 for the City doing that. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was going to be 16 thankful for the very generous contribution -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm also thankful for 18 the money. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- of the $3,859 out of 20 the hotel/motel tax. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I would point out to you 22 gentlemen, you don't get it all in one fell swoop. Such a 23 large sum is -- is allocated to you in -- in four payments 24 over a one-year period, it appears. And, in order to 25 receive that funding, there must be a written request 10-14-03 117 1 accompanied by a copy of the invoice requesting payment. 2 So, we got to spend the money in advance, and then, when we 3 request payment, apparently we've got to do it at four 4 different times of the year, is the way I read that contract 5 at the paragraph beginning on the bottom of Page 1 and 6 continuing on Page 2. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, also, didn't I 8 read here somewhere that it's earmarked for some specific -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Concession stand. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Concession stand? I 11 thought -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe the -- it was 13 earmarked for bleachers and -- and ice machine. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ice machine. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that was -- that was the 16 approved purpose. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Great. I got so 18 excited about somebody telling the truth that I couldn't get 19 past it to find out what the money was really for. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: i.e., convention center? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, the convention 22 center. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Judge? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes? 10-14-03 118 1 MR. TOMLINSON: We'll need to increase the 2 budget by -- by the amount of those funds. That amount is 3 not in the budget. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I would also note that you're 5 required to create a separate account. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. We've done this 7 before. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, with these funds. So -- 10 but we do need to increase the budget by the amount of 11 the -- of the donation. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the Youth Exhibit 13 Center budget? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I want to permit Commissioner 17 Baldwin to make the motion so that he can use the magic 18 term. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, yeah. Judge, I 20 approve Item Number -- or move to approve Item Number 21, 21 the agreement between the City of Kerrville and the County 22 of Kerr for use of Hotel Occupancy Tax revenues for 23 improvement of the convention center facilities, and 24 authorize the Judge to sign the same, and -- and increase 25 the budget by $3,859. 10-14-03 119 1 MS. SOVIL: Don't you have to declare an 2 emergency to -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Hmm? 4 MS. SOVIL: -- increase the budget? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Not to increase, I don't 6 think. That's not an emergency. It's only if we spend. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: We can -- we can increase it 8 because we have offsetting revenues that we didn't 9 anticipate when the budget was made. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's my emotion. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 14 approve Item 21 and to increase the Youth Exhibition Center 15 budget by the amount stated in the agreement, that being 16 $3,859. Any further question or discussion? All in favor 17 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 22 is consider and discuss adoption of policy regarding use of 23 courthouse, courthouse facilities, and courthouse grounds. 24 This item was up last time, and the -- the coordinator was 25 requested to prepare a draft of proposed guidelines. That 10-14-03 120 1 has been done, and it's attached. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a couple of 3 comments. I apologize, I wrote out my comments and e-mailed 4 them, but then I deleted them. My e-mail didn't go through, 5 so I lost all my comments, so I was frustrated and decided 6 not to do it a second time. But the comments are on the -- 7 under the -- I guess, the reasons. "Because of security and 8 personnel issues, all meetings or other gatherings will be 9 limited to official county government related business 10 only." This is related to things inside the courthouse. 11 That's, I think, a little bit on -- it's too restrictive. 12 As an example, I don't know -- I think -- I'm not sure that 13 a Christmas party is an official county function. I'm not 14 sure that the thing we did with Costco is an official county 15 function. So, I think you need to -- you know, I don't know 16 what we need to say there, but I don't think we need to -- I 17 think that -- I would just think "official county government 18 related business" to be a little bit too strict in that 19 area. 20 Under Courthouse Square, I don't think we 21 should limit it to 501(c)(3) nonprofit entities. Then, on 22 the other -- what was the other one? On the signage issue, 23 you know, we have a current policy, I guess, from what it 24 said, relating to signs. I know we allow that United Way 25 sign to go up there on a pretty regular basis, or every year 10-14-03 121 1 it goes up there. I don't really recall other signs going 2 up there, but I think -- you know, I think that's a 3 potentially -- I mean, is that corner open for any nonprofit 4 to put a sign up? You know. Or is that what the intent is? 5 And what kind -- I mean, I'm a little worried about that. I 6 mean, I know we've always -- this is what happens when you 7 start writing policies all of a sudden. Sometimes it's 8 better not to have a policy, because, like -- and I -- I can 9 see it being a benefit to the community, but I don't want 10 that corner to start looking like a, you know, garage sale 11 corner. I don't mean for garage sales. I mean, I can 12 envision every organization around town wanting to put a 13 sign up there for raising money. And I don't know that -- 14 you know, how we would prevent it if we have a policy that 15 says they can do it. So, it's almost like it may be 16 inviting, you know, something that we don't really want. So 17 I think, overall -- I mean, I know we talked about it, and 18 part of me says we need a policy, and part of me, after 19 thinking about it further, says I'm not so sure we need a 20 policy. I think -- 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Are we trying to 22 solve some specific problems? Or just anticipating that we 23 may need to have guidelines to avoid having problems? I 24 don't know. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I didn't bring it up. 10-14-03 122 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably, the -- one of the 2 things that -- that prompted it was I received a request 3 earlier for a political group to utilize an area inside the 4 courthouse to conduct a meeting, and I was uncomfortable 5 with that, because my feeling was that if -- if that occurs, 6 if you permit one political group, for example, you must 7 permit all political groups, irrespective of the acceptance 8 or -- or size or whatever the case may be. You have the 9 same potential issue with regard to civic groups, religious 10 groups, and there's all sorts of various shades and nuances 11 that -- I was more concerned about the inside than I was the 12 outside, but when I put it on, I figured, well, you know, 13 we'll just throw the whole thing out there on the table. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The political groups 15 -- isn't this where the Republicans and Democrats hold their 16 annual -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: County conventions, that's 18 correct. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Would this bar them? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: It -- well, if you adopt the 21 use of the courthouse building and facilities, the actual 22 interior confines of this building, yes, it would, unless 23 there were specific permission granted from the Court as a 24 deviation from that policy. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we adopt this 10-14-03 123 1 policy as written, in addition to the Republican and 2 Democratic parties, would we expect other grievances to 3 arise because of the new policy? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They couldn't sell mops 5 out there. I don't think they're a -- 6 MS. SOVIL: It's a civic group. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They may not be a 8 501(c)(3). The cheerleaders aren't a 501(c)(3). 9 MS. SOVIL: That's a -- I thought it said 10 civic or educational. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I -- you know, and 12 the cheerleader thing, that's -- 13 MS. SOVIL: That's educational. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, that's iffy. 15 That's pretty -- I don't know who does that thing, whether 16 it's the actual cheerleaders out there doing it, or if it's 17 a fundraiser for the supporters of the cheerleaders. 18 Anyway, I mean, I just -- I kind of view the overall -- I 19 mean, the only thing that I really -- and it's a personal 20 pet peeve, really, not necessarily the Court. I'd like a 21 moratorium on more things on the courthouse grounds. Other 22 than that, I really don't -- I think it's -- it's kind of 23 public grounds, and until we have a problem, I don't know 24 that -- you know, let people use the courthouse grounds. If 25 we have -- you know, start having a problem, and we need to 10-14-03 124 1 start banning certain groups or doing certain things, but I 2 just don't see that big of a problem right now. 3 And the use of the court -- inside the 4 courthouse, you know, I think if you -- if you start putting 5 in a policy like this, all of a sudden, something comes in, 6 and say -- you know, I'll pick on Barbara 'cause she's here. 7 Say Barbara wants to meet a person here, and it's not 8 technically courthouse-related business. Well, can she do 9 that? You know. My feeling would be yes. But if you put a 10 policy of courthouse-related, if she's not doing -- acting 11 as our Treasurer, she wouldn't be allowed to come in here 12 and do that. And I don't -- you know, I don't want to get 13 that nitpicky. If Barbara wants to meet somebody here, let 14 Barbara meet somebody here, you know. It's -- and if we 15 start having a problem, then I think we address it. I 16 just -- I think the more policies like this you have, you 17 just start creating more and more problems potentially, or 18 people doing things in violation of policy that wasn't the 19 intent of the policy. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we got something to chew 21 on. We're going to need to come back to some of these 22 items. Why don't we go ahead and adjourn for lunch now and 23 come back at 1:30? 24 MS. SOVIL: Recess. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me, recess. Buster, 10-14-03 125 1 you didn't remind me. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I tell you what, you 3 did it right this morning. You want some of my medication? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, then you went to sleep 5 on me. We'll stand in recess until 1:30. 6 (Recess taken from 11:55 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.) 7 - - - - - - - - - - 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I will call the meeting 9 back to order. It's just a smidgen after 1:30. We stood in 10 recess shortly before noon, and we will be back in order 11 now. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, can I ask you a 13 question? How does a smidgen stack up against, let's say, 14 a -- a tittle? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: A tittle? A smidgen is about 16 three times longer than a tittle. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How about a tidbit? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: About twice as long as a 19 tidbit. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see, okay. I'm glad 21 we got that established. Now we know what we're doing, 22 finally. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: We're going downhill quick. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: We were on Item Number 22, 25 consideration and discussion of adoption of the policy, or 10-14-03 126 1 not, regarding use of courthouse or courthouse facilities 2 and courthouse grounds. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I'm probably in 4 the "or not" category, except for altering the grounds, such 5 as ditching. And the reason is not as much to -- you know, 6 the recent ditching that's gone on out there. It's that I 7 look at that right now, and I don't know if they're done or 8 not, but I see that the County's going to have to expend 9 money to get rid of a bunch of rocks; otherwise, we're going 10 to have a whole bunch of broken windshields. With what the 11 Courthouse Lighting Committee did, there's a bunch of rocks 12 on the ground now. And I think that, you know, anytime 13 anyone does anything that's permanent of nature, it needs to 14 be coordinated with Maintenance, at a minimum. And whatever 15 is done, ever, whether it's people using the courthouse 16 square or anything, it needs to be at no cost to the 17 taxpayers. Which, to me, no -- which, to me, is no cost to 18 Maintenance, 'cause they're the ones that have to pick up 19 all that stuff. And I don't know how we have that in a 20 policy, but at the same time leave it as open as possible 21 for use of community. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maintenance is not 23 here. Is that what that -- all that ditching was out there? 24 Is that for courthouse lights? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think. I don't know 10-14-03 127 1 that to be a fact. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That was my understanding, 3 part of the -- some of the new permanent wiring for the 4 Christmas lighting program. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I -- and my 6 concern -- and let me go back a step further. My concern is 7 that we spent quite a bit of money, as I recall, with Mike 8 Walker locating everything on this courthouse square; every 9 tree and every bench, every sidewalk was all mapped out. 10 And now we go arbitrarily and put a ditch across there and 11 put electrical lines in it, you know, we start ending up 12 with a situation where no one knows where everything is 13 again, and I think, from a maintenance and safety 14 standpoint, we need to know where all these -- you know, 15 where all the fixtures on this courthouse square are. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree -- well, I 17 guess we need to see that that new electric stuff out there 18 needs to be put on that map. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wherever that is. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: They have presented, if I 22 recall correctly, a schematic last year as part of the -- 23 their overall proposal for the permanent installation. I 24 don't know if this is in the same place, or whether it's the 25 same type of installation or -- or type of improvements or 10-14-03 128 1 circuits or whatever that they had planned. Apparently they 2 didn't have the money to do it last year, so maybe they went 3 out and got reloaded financially, and now they're starting 4 to do it. I don't know. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think -- I 6 don't know either, but I think that the -- and a little 7 historical perspective, I mean, the courthouse lighting -- 8 well, the Court has tried to not get directly involved in 9 any of the courthouse lighting projects, and it's kind of 10 given a fair amount of latitude to the committee that pays 11 for it and does it and responsible for it. And I think 12 Maintenance has assisted them along the way, and I think 13 we've kind of felt that it's a community-type organization, 14 but I'm not sure that that was the right decision back then. 15 I mean, you know, I think that at some point, there needs to 16 be some direction, maybe, or policy or -- or understanding 17 or something with that lighting committee as to what -- you 18 know, where they want to go. And the Court changes every 19 two years, so, I mean, I think they have to almost bring it 20 back every two years, make sure the Court -- the new Court 21 agrees. I mean, I think it's been a -- you know, a positive 22 event for the community. I may not agree with all the 23 things that they've done specifically, from a personal 24 standpoint -- taste standpoint, but I think it's good. I 25 mean, I'd like to see it continue. But when it comes to 10-14-03 129 1 ditching, I think that needs to be coordinated with us 2 pretty closely. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And it may have been. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I don't know. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just saw them doing 6 it over a couple days ago. 7 MS. SOVIL: Do you want me to get Glenn? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it would be 9 kind of wise, to get that straightened out, 'cause Letz is 10 not going to let it go. I can see that. He's like a 11 bulldog, man. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My question is, Judge, 14 is on this courthouse square part here, moratorium on 15 donations for items, and it has "animal, vegetable, and 16 mineral." Explain that one to me. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You'll have to talk to the one 18 that prepared that. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That would be 20 Ms. Sovil? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be your court 22 coordinator, that's correct. That's who was directed to 23 prepare the draft. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You wasn't in on this? 25 See, this looks like lawyer talk to me. 10-14-03 130 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Animal, vegetable, and 2 mineral? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I guess we need 4 to wait on her. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think that -- you 7 know, I presume everyone on the Court's heard my comments 8 about things on the courthouse yard. I just think that we 9 just need to -- I think less is better, frequently. And we 10 have -- we don't have less on this courthouse square right 11 now. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, with the new 13 flower beds and -- and the new rock walls and those kinds of 14 things, it's beginning to fill up. It's getting kind of 15 strange looking. But -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: You don't have any more 17 memorial tree designation spots? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we have a lot of 19 pretty big trees already in this square. Now, around the 20 perimeter, there is some -- there's maybe some vacancies 21 there, but I'm more thinking of cannons and benches and 22 flower beds and things of that nature. And trees, really -- 23 I mean, I think -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When is -- when we 25 started talking about this a couple years ago, you know, put 10-14-03 131 1 together a courthouse plan of what's out there and what's -- 2 and I'm still in the same place, that all cedar trees and 3 hackberries need to come out. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: I'm glad I'm not in this 5 conversation. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm almost through. 7 That was just a quickie; nothing's going to happen with it. 8 But, you know, cedar trees and hackberry trees, God made 9 them for us to cut down. That's what they're for. And no 10 use. If you took those out, some of -- that old big 11 hackberry thing out there, ugliest thing in Kerr County -- 12 took that out, then you'd have a place for a memorial tree, 13 something nice. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have a chainsaw, Glenn, 15 that's safe for Commissioner Baldwin to operate? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe safe for him, but 17 not for the community or those standing nearby. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, Ms. Sovil, my 19 question was, under Courthouse Square -- 20 MS. SOVIL: Yes, sir? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is the moratorium 22 on donations for items animal, vegetable, mineral? What 23 does that mean exactly? 24 MS. SOVIL: Well, that means anything. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, that just covers 10-14-03 132 1 everything? We can't put a stuffed deer out there or -- or 2 a -- 3 MS. SOVIL: Well, it was primarily 4 birdhouses. No, Commissioner Letz, in his statement, wanted 5 to put a moratorium on all things on the courthouse, so I 6 thought "animal, vegetable, or mineral" covered it all. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, that's fine. 8 And I want to go to -- well, let's get to Glenn, let him get 9 back to his rat killing. 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- the recent 12 ditching in the courthouse square, and we -- or I said I 13 presume that's related to the courthouse lighting. The 14 question is, were you -- did you know they were going to do 15 it, and have they coordinated with us? And my beef probably 16 is that it's done in an area, in a way that works with the 17 Maintenance Department, and that information where these 18 pipes are added to -- as I recall, we had a map made by Mike 19 Walker with all the trees and all that stuff located on it, 20 and that we keep an updated version of where everything is 21 out there so we don't get in the same position we did 22 several years ago of having stuff everywhere, and no one 23 knew where they were. 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay, Commissioner, I can give 25 you what I know. To my knowledge -- and I do sleep 10-14-03 133 1 occasionally -- I was not notified this year of any ditching 2 that was going to take place, but I was informed the other 3 day that this is a continuation of the requested underground 4 electrical that they had gotten approval from Commissioners 5 Court last year. That never did take place because of lack 6 of funding. As far as being diagramed, the lighting 7 committee is going to put -- be putting it on the master 8 plan sheet that they have within the ground, other 9 utilities. As to -- if you -- I see it as -- in a lot of 10 ways, as a plus. First of all, it's upgrading the 11 electrical, which is sorely needed. And secondly, it gets 12 it off of our electricity bill. The more that they put out 13 there, that goes onto their meters, not on ours. So, I 14 would -- I would say it's to our advantage to allow them -- 15 you know, they did not notify me prior to last week 16 ditching, and with their placement, but that was part of 17 last year's master plan that they presented to -- about the 18 underground wiring. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do they -- are they going 20 to do more this year? Or is that all they're -- 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: I can't answer that today. 22 I'm going to a meeting on Thursday afternoon at 3 o'clock to 23 try to get that question answered by the committee. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: When in conversation with 25 the committee -- this just popped into my brain, that we 10-14-03 134 1 want to make sure they don't cut our new parking lot paving 2 anywhere to run wires somewhere. 3 MR. HOLEKAMP: That's already been brought to 4 the electrician's attention the other day out here, where it 5 got pretty close. They said something about going under, 6 and I said I really think there needs to be some discussion 7 about that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. And I think -- you 9 know, we just spent quite a bit of money for surfacing. We 10 don't need to have someone ditch through our parking lot 11 right now. 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: I understand that. But I 13 don't -- at this time, I don't foresee any of that taking 14 place. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Glenn, if I had my 16 preference, even though it's mapped out and approved and all 17 that, it -- if I had my preference, I would like for them to 18 get with you before they did any of the work, just to make 19 double sure that we're not destroying something that's 20 already there or -- you know, I just think that would be 21 good policy or good business, just to make sure. Touch base 22 and -- you know, we're fixing to destroy your property -- I 23 mean lay our electrical lines. 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: I can't say that I don't agree 25 with you, Commissioner. 10-14-03 135 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If the rest of these 2 guys don't say the same thing, would you tell them that I 3 feel that way? If nothing else. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: Oh, no problem at all. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe I just said it. 6 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you have 8 unanimous sentiment. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They just need to 10 touch base with you, "This is what we're fixing to do." 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: I agree. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Probably everything is 13 going to be okay, but it would just be a good thing to touch 14 base. Thank you. 15 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then -- I'll get 17 to that sign thing in a minute, but I want to come to the 18 indoor. If you -- if you allow one -- let's just use the 19 political parties as an example. If you allow a political 20 party to use the facility, inside the facility, then you 21 must allow the others -- plural, others -- to do that. Just 22 on the surface of that thought, I would be opposed to doing 23 that. However, Number 4 brought up a -- the historical 24 issue. I mean that's the county -- 25 MS. SOVIL: Convention. 10-14-03 136 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- conventions. I 2 remember Julius Neunhoffer holding those things upstairs and 3 just -- I mean, great debates. I mean, most wonderful stuff 4 I've ever seen. And -- you know, so that's a historical 5 thing. And kind of -- you know, and I see those things -- I 6 see that as, that's what the courthouse is for, you know, 7 and that kind of issue. And then, once -- once you -- you 8 know, so I'm -- I've changed my mind now. I think, well, 9 maybe the political people need to use it. And if you say 10 that they can use it for the convention, they should be 11 able, I guess, to use it for a meeting. Where do you -- do 12 you draw a line between convention and meetings? 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Maybe the -- I'm not 14 sure, but maybe the convention is part of the political 15 process, process by which we select people to conduct our 16 state and county -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe that's it. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But if you're having 19 something to do -- that's dealing with campaigning or 20 something like that, I'd say no. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's -- I'm kind of 22 that way too, but I don't know how to draw that line in 23 there. How to draw a -- a definite line there, 'cause you 24 know how politicians can blur those lines. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just don't see it as a 10-14-03 137 1 problem we need to do anything with right now. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that may be. 3 That may be the case. And -- and I also see, as the Judge 4 and I were visiting about it the other day -- you know, and 5 Commissioner Letz pointed it out. If an elected official is 6 having a meeting in their personal office -- and I'll just 7 use myself. You know, if I'm having a group of guys up here 8 in -- meeting in my office, and I don't affect the 9 Maintenance people having to stay here to lock up after me 10 or clean up after me, then it's -- it's my call, whether it 11 is a political meeting or whether it is a church meeting or 12 whatever hot issue that may arise. Number one, who's going 13 to stand outside my window and peek in there and tell what 14 kind of meeting it is? I'm not -- I'm not going to police 15 the building to do that. So, if it causes -- you know, if 16 somebody's using the facility and it's causing our 17 Maintenance people to stay over past their normal times, or 18 having to stay here to lock the doors or clean up after 19 people, to me, that's where the line is drawn. We should 20 not be doing that. And I guess the way to do -- just do the 21 whole thing is what Letz is saying, is don't do anything. I 22 mean, if there's a -- if there's not a problem, don't try to 23 fix it. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We may have a 25 solution looking for a problem. 10-14-03 138 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe, yeah. It's 2 kind of like -- do you know what I relate it to? I relate 3 it to these constables coming in here wanting new cars, new 4 fancy shirts, new hats and new guns and new everything. And 5 we give them all that stuff, and then here they come out of 6 the woodwork wanting to run against you. You know? That's 7 how it works. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've noticed that. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You create a little 10 storm out there, by gosh, they'll come to the storm. So -- 11 and then my only other question is -- is this. I think it's 12 important that we do address the signage out there on that 13 corner. Again, the -- who uses it now? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: United Way. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: United Way and their 16 little red marker of how much money they've collected, that 17 never has bothered me. And I don't know of the Fourth 18 Church from San Antonio wanting to put up their little sign 19 there; I don't know if that's ever happened. That's the 20 only sign I've ever seen up out there. So, maybe -- maybe, 21 there again, we don't have a problem with that. 22 MS. SOVIL: There were two different issues. 23 There was signs, and then there was that civic sign. I 24 think I addressed the civic sign in the southwest corner, 25 that that could be put up. But the signage I was talking 10-14-03 139 1 about was that vendor signage. Like, what comes to mind is 2 that when we have had -- we had a pest controller come to 3 the Court; he donated termite control, but he wanted to put 4 his sign up, and Commissioners Court said no, in no 5 uncertain terms. Now, if -- if a vendor can't, why is it 6 then all right to have signage in the yard saying, "This is 7 donated by so-and-so"? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, when was that? 9 I -- I know you're telling the truth, 'cause I remember 10 seeing it, but I don't remember what the function was. Was 11 it the Christmas -- wasn't there a Christmas display -- 12 light display, and there was a sign there that says, "This 13 display was donated by such-and-such"? 14 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, there's numerous ones of 15 those. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Is there a 17 problem with that? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know. That's one of 19 the issues. What if the Fourth Church out of San Antonio 20 would want to come up and put a sign over there on that 21 southwest corner? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I would say, 23 "No. Motley, come help me." 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's the right 25 answer. 10-14-03 140 1 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I mean, you could -- I 2 mean, you could probably make a distinction, like I think 3 Dave or Jonathan, one, said; you could -- a sign that's 4 there for, you know, charitable works related to the county 5 is one thing, other than just a blatant advertisement or 6 something like that is -- is different, even if it's -- but, 7 I mean, that United Way sign is a -- it's to announce some 8 progress of a campaign which benefits the county generally 9 as a charitable contribution. Its purpose is for the 10 welfare of the citizens of the county. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: What if Y.M.C.A. wants to put 12 up something relative to their fundraising campaign? 13 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I mean, I see that as 14 being more akin to the United Way thing than to some -- just 15 some business advertisement or some -- something related to 16 issues outside of the county. You know, I mean, I'm trying 17 to draw a line again. If y'all are talking about -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: What if the church out here 19 that was -- instead of spending their money on a Halloween 20 thing, was raising funds and publicly announced it was for 21 orphanages in Mexico, and they wanted to post a sign that 22 spelled out their progress in what they were doing? 23 MR. MOTLEY: You're taking me back 25 years 24 to my first year in law school, all these what-ifs. I don't 25 know. You can try to just slice it as thin as you want to 10-14-03 141 1 slice it. I'm trying to maybe come up with some sort of a 2 distinction as to what United Way is doing. It's a 3 community chest, type of a community fundraising deal for 4 the welfare of the community, and is a charitable event. 5 And that is a -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the problem I have is 7 that I'm the one that these inquiries come to. "Say, would 8 it be all right if we put up a sign?" Or, "Would it be all 9 right if we held a garage sale?" Or, "Would it be all right 10 if we..." You know, those come to me. Now, if -- you know, 11 if everyone comes to somebody else, I'm probably not going 12 to be nearly as interested, but they come to me, and I'm -- 13 I'm expected to give them an answer, yes or no. And if I 14 give them a no, I need to give them -- I think I'm obligated 15 to give them some reasonable basis, that which would be 16 otherwise viewed as a, quote, community-type function or 17 affair, why I'm telling them no. 18 MR. MOTLEY: I can see a practical problem 19 with what you're talking about. Another aspect that just 20 kind of came to mind is for how long somebody wanted to use 21 the grounds. You know, the United Way thing is a pretty 22 long fundraiser, typically, so it's up there for a matter of 23 weeks, I think, showing the progress that they're making. 24 You know, I think other things you probably get requests 25 about would be things like maybe the car wash-type situation 10-14-03 142 1 or something like that. There's other places in town where 2 they do that. I don't know if that's been a problem here or 3 a request, but, I mean, you already have an agreement that 4 we're working out with the Market Association for the 5 alternate Saturdays. That -- that was a pretty specific 6 agreement to use that, and it seems to be working very well. 7 I don't know. That might be something that we could -- of 8 course, maybe it's one of those deals that's better left 9 alone. I don't know. But if -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: But it doesn't leave me alone, 11 is the problem. 12 MR. MOTLEY: No, I hear you. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why can't you just say, 14 "I don't have the authority," and put on it the agenda? If 15 they want to make a presentation, come talk to the Court. 16 And most of them probably will say, "Not worth it." And if 17 they come, we'll decide. And if it starts becoming a 18 problem, we do a policy. 19 MR. MOTLEY: That's what's the Market 20 Association basically did, is they made a presentation -- a 21 good one -- to the Court, as I recall. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Excellent. 23 MR. MOTLEY: About what they wanted to do. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That way, I mean, you 25 know, if you say you don't have authority to do that -- and 10-14-03 143 1 you don't, unless the Court gives you that authority, which 2 is why you brought it to the Court. So, I mean, I just -- I 3 just -- I don't see it as that big of a problem right now. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And maybe, if we start 6 getting, like, three or four a meeting, then maybe I'll 7 change my mind; I'll think this is more of a problem, and we 8 can then try to work out a policy. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And with regard to the use of 10 the interior of the facilities, the sense that I'm getting 11 on the use of the interior facilities is, if you've got 12 access to the courthouse and it's not going to impact or 13 interfere or cause any effect on any County employee, then 14 it's okay. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I don't -- I don't 16 look at it that it's okay. I look at it more, you know, not 17 the -- there's not a whole lot of -- most of the access is 18 to elected officials that have keys, and -- you know, and 19 certain employees. I would think, you know -- I mean, you 20 know, if I was to have a religious meeting here, that I'm 21 responsible for that and I'm the one that's going to be 22 called on the carpet, not you. I mean -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: That's true. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a decision that I 25 made. And if the Treasurer does it or Buster does it, it's 10-14-03 144 1 a little bit of personal responsibility. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Absolutely. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, hopefully, our 4 people will not abuse it. 5 MS. SOVIL: Aren't you putting an undue 6 burden on Maintenance to come tattle that, "So-and-so didn't 7 clean up his office after his meeting last night"? That's 8 not fair. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think it's undue. 10 I mean, I don't think -- if there's a problem, I think that 11 Maintenance should, you know, point it out. I just don't 12 know that -- you know, one, I don't know that I have -- I've 13 got a real question about authority, if I can tell Linda 14 Uecker what she can do in this courthouse. I don't think I 15 can. 16 MS. SOVIL: Not in her office. Not in her 17 office, you can't. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know that I can 19 tell her what to do anywhere in here. I don't know. I 20 don't really see that I have that authority. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm damn sure not 22 going to try. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just like -- you know, 24 if -- if any elected official starts abusing it, I think 25 it's up to the -- you know, it needs to be brought to the 10-14-03 145 1 Court or brought to the public at that time. But I'm just 2 not sure how -- you know, it's like trying to tell Rusty 3 what to do in his building. I don't think I want to go down 4 that road. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'm still a 6 little bit unclear, and I feel like maybe you are as well, 7 about what do you do about the broom sales and the 8 cheerleaders' sale, and -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: You're going to get to make a 10 decision on that, Commissioner. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In other words, those 12 organizations that have been using it every year for 40 13 years are going to have to come to the Commissioners Court? 14 Is that what you're saying? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that -- yeah, I think 16 that's what I just heard. We got one sitting there right 17 now that we're going to have to notify, the Veteran's Day -- 18 people that conduct the Veteran's Day program, or at least 19 one group that conducts the Veteran's Day program. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, if I were those 21 organizations, I would want to come in here anyway, to just 22 let the County fathers know what I want to do, plus maybe 23 the press will pick up on it and it will be advertised, 24 what's -- you know, the program going on on the courthouse 25 square. That's -- I don't see why they didn't want to come 10-14-03 146 1 in, anyway. I would. So, maybe it's not a bad thing to ask 2 them to come -- to come to court. I don't know. Does 3 that -- do you see it as possibly clogging up the agenda? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Don't know. I suspect we're 5 going to find out, though. 6 MS. SOVIL: Right now, we tell them to work 7 it out with LuAnn. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, if it's going to 9 occur on the weekend, you know, like the Golden Girls' 10 garage sale or something like that, we just tell them to be 11 sure and coordinate it with her so that -- you know, and 12 it's a win-win deal for both of them, really, because of the 13 traffic that it creates helps, and -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And -- but it just requires 16 the coordination. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And the Market Days 18 people have been excellent -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Absolutely. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- excellent with 21 that. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Everybody that's had some 23 other event on those same days has -- has been very pleased 24 with the cooperation, number one, and number two, the 25 increased response to their event because of the traffic 10-14-03 147 1 that it generates. 2 MS. SOVIL: Maybe you need to define what 3 needs to come to Court and what doesn't. I mean, to have 4 every -- the American Legion that's going to do their little 5 memorial service out here, is it really necessary for them 6 to come to court? Or can't -- this is their courthouse, and 7 they're just telling you that they want to use it, you know, 8 that day. Or the Golden Girls; they want to use it that 9 day, but they have to coordinate with LuAnn. What 10 parameters do you want them to come to court? Do you want 11 everybody to come to court, you know, and ask -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think what the Judge is 13 saying is that, what's the difference if the K.K.K. wants to 14 come to a rally, or the V.A. people? And there isn't any 15 difference. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: None. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you know -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: We've had a K.K.K. rally here, 19 as a matter of fact. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's right. But, I 21 mean, I think that the -- you know, I just -- I think a 22 policy is very hard to write that's not -- that there's not 23 loopholes and problems with that. I mean, I wouldn't at all 24 be adverse to getting with -- seeing if Glenn can come up 25 with a list of those types of organizations, saying they can 10-14-03 148 1 use it, and other than that, those have to come to court. 2 But I think we'd be real -- it would be more for 3 coordination than saying yes or no, because I think once you 4 say yes, you say yes to everybody. Which I'm in favor of. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Any motion to be offered in 6 connection with Item 22? We'll move on to 23, consider and 7 discuss authorizing Request for Proposals for health 8 insurance coverage plan for County employees for either 9 January 1, 2004 through December 31, 2004, or alternatively, 10 for January 1, 2004 through September 30, 2004. I put some 11 -- put a timeline in there that I think is generally 12 applicable, that necessitates us -- if we're going to get 13 proposals on our insurance coverage, we need to start asking 14 for it immediately. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- yeah. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: The earlier RFP that I 17 presented to the Court would have asked for either a -- a 18 self-insured, partially reinsured, or a fully insured plan, 19 alternatively. The -- the other mention that I made was 20 that any proposals to be considered must either state that 21 specifically, what the total compensation to be paid to the 22 broker/agent is, or in the alternative, set some maximum 23 dollar amount. A figure that was suggested to me was 24 $20,000, but, you know, that's -- that can be any figure. 25 My thinking there was, in order that this Court can truly 10-14-03 149 1 compare apples to apples and know what portion of its funds 2 are being paid for insurance coverage benefits or benefit 3 funds, rather than outside compensation, and not otherwise 4 available for payment of benefits or insurance. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we definitely 6 need to do it. And I'm glad Commissioner Nicholson's here, 7 with his experience on this type of issue, because I think 8 -- I mean, I almost think we need to go back to the -- look 9 at what we're offering, and if we're offering the right 10 menu, for lack of another word, to our employees. And 11 decide on what we want to offer and then go out, you know, 12 and -- for proposal. We may be offering the right things, 13 but it seems -- I don't recall, since I've been on the 14 Court, that we've really looked at -- maybe -- I guess we 15 did one time since I've been on the Court, looked at what 16 we're offering employees. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, ideally, what -- if you 18 have the time, what you may want to consider doing is to 19 advertise for qualifications for a consultant, and then let 20 that consultant try and analyze what you're presently 21 offering versus what you might offer in the way of 22 alternatives. And then, getting some idea from the Court, 23 then let the consultant do a Request for Proposals. And -- 24 but we, frankly, don't have the time to do both of those. 25 We've got coverage that's going to be expiring December 31. 10-14-03 150 1 It takes a minimum of three weeks, according to the 2 information I have, for any prospective bidder to put 3 together -- that's if they have all of the information, all 4 of the loss information, the employee census, the whole nine 5 yards. Once they have that in-hand, it takes them a minimum 6 of three weeks to put together their proposal, and then 7 you've got -- once you know what proposal you're going with, 8 you've got to enroll those people in the plan. They've got 9 to have time to fabricate the identification cards and so 10 forth. So, we just flat don't have the time at this point. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What -- what I would 12 not like to see us do is simply invite the various providers 13 to provide a bid on the current coverage. I'd like for them 14 to come in and say, "Here's what it would cost for your 15 current scheme. Here's an Alternative B. Here's an 16 Alternative C." And those alternatives -- I don't know what 17 all that would include. That would include things like not 18 paying the full cost of an employee-only coverage. It would 19 include things like whether or not we have what's called 20 coordination of benefits. I don't know if we have that in 21 ours now. That -- that's where, if -- if my spouse is 22 employed and she has a claim and she has coverage at her 23 company, then it has to pay first and not us pay first. 24 There are various alternative ways to go about insuring 25 people, and I would like these bidders to give us 10-14-03 151 1 alternatives that are better than the scheme we have now. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But have them all bid on 3 our current -- kind of as a base? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Benchmark. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Benchmark. I think we 6 need to do it, and I like that. Sounds good to me. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How would you define 8 -- I mean, they bid on the benchmark, and then what are 9 those other -- just things that they offer? And how would 10 you compare that from one company to another company? If 11 you did, I mean, you wouldn't be comparing apples and 12 apples. It may be just that Plan B would seem like 13 something -- I mean, how would you do that? Seems like 14 something that we'd be more interested in for our employees? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know how you 16 get around the apples and oranges thing, 'cause I would hope 17 at least two bidders would come in, and one of them would 18 propose a better plan than we have now, and the other one 19 would propose a better plan, and they'd be different. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And we then just 22 decide which of those two different ones we like the best, 23 or we'd be prevented from doing that. The one provider that 24 I've had some experience with -- and I don't know near as 25 much about this as you might think I do. It's not one of 10-14-03 152 1 the topics that excited me very much when I was working. 2 One of the local agents provided a -- three options to the 3 Hill Country Youth Ranch. "Here's what you've been doing, 4 here's what it costs and pays, and here's B and C." And B 5 and C were clearly better for the employees and the 6 employers than the current one, and the Hill Country Youth 7 Ranch opted for one of those other two, and costs went down 8 and the benefits to the employees was -- was well-received. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: If you merely give them an 10 opportunity to present other coverage options, you know, at 11 their discretion, then, you know, some of them may come up 12 with a half a dozen different ones. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there any problem in 14 accepting one of those other ones that's not -- I mean, 15 there's no -- no problem with -- from the meeting 16 standpoint, if -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Best value to the County. 18 Best-suited, best value to the County. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: In our opinion, 20 that's good enough? I'm comfortable. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Correct me if that's an 22 erroneous statement, Mr. Motley. 23 MR. MOTLEY: As far as -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: If they offer various options, 25 and -- and we like one particular bidder's one out of, say, 10-14-03 153 1 five plans that they propose -- say there's three bidders, 2 and they each present five different proposals, maybe a bid 3 on something that's akin to what we have now as a benchmark 4 and four others at whatever their discretion is, and we just 5 think this is the best one for Kerr County over here on -- 6 on Bidder Number 3, Plan Number 4. 7 MR. MOTLEY: I think it's the best that -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, what we consider in the 9 best interests of the county. 10 MR. MOTLEY: Yeah. And it's the best bid 11 given what it is you're looking to do, which is to provide 12 the coverage. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, Mr. Motley, just 14 for example, so I'm clear on it, if two of these providers 15 come in here and they're both offering the same plans that 16 we like, and we like both of them, and one of them's got a 17 $500 deductible and the other one's got a $1,000 deductible, 18 we can decide which of those -- 19 MR. MOTLEY: I believe you can pick the 20 best -- the bid that you feel is best for the purpose you're 21 trying to achieve. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 23 MR. MOTLEY: And that doesn't necessarily 24 have to be the cheapest amount of money. And there can be a 25 preference granted to local vendors. I mean, that's 10-14-03 154 1 allowed. And it's allowed to be paid more, I think, as 2 well, if you feel that is the best plan for the county, the 3 best overall deal. That's my understanding. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you say all that in a 5 motion? 6 (Commissioner Nicholson shook his head.) 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would -- I'll make a 8 motion that we go out for proposals for new health 9 insurance, and all bidders must bid on the benchmark, which 10 is our current policy attributes, and can bid on any other 11 policy options that they so choose, and the term for this 12 policy period will be January 1, 2004, through 13 September 30th, 2004. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second the motion. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I see Tommy waving his 16 hand already. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: I think I would substitute 18 the word "proposer" for bidder. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Did you intentionally 21 omit any reference to compensation to the welfare agent? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I did. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I said intentionally; 24 that's the reason I used the term. Okay. Any -- any 25 discussion or questions concerning the motion? 10-14-03 155 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you see a problem with 2 me intentionally leaving that term out? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: No. No. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And note that I did put 5 it at the end of our fiscal year, as opposed to calendar 6 year, which is -- 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We want to do that. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: When do you want those -- when 9 do you want the submission to be available, and when do you 10 want them to be -- to be returned by? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would say -- when are 12 our meetings in November? 13 MS. SOVIL: The 11th and the 25th -- I mean 14 24th. 11th and 24th. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, Tommy, how long do 16 you need to -- or how long do we need to get them? Well, 17 why don't we just get them due back for the 11th? Have them 18 do it the Friday before the 11th, which would be -- 19 MS. SOVIL: That's not long enough. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: I think you have a better 21 chance of -- of getting more proposers if you -- the longer 22 you give it. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: So, I mean, I -- I would 25 stretch it as far as you could. 10-14-03 156 1 MS. SOVIL: First meeting in December is the 2 8th. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Then you only have 4 three weeks. Is that enough time to study the thing and 5 make a decision? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is November -- do you 7 think November -- in your experience, is November 21st too 8 soon? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't think it would be 10 hard -- be difficult to get the material for them to make a 11 proposal, but -- because all of our data is -- is here, plus 12 at our third-party administrator. So, as far as any loss 13 experience, that should be easy to get. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can start getting that 15 right now. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: I think the -- I think we 17 need some time also to be able to negotiate, if we want to, 18 and so I think maybe the first meeting in December would be 19 the latest. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, you know, we 21 don't have to have it on a regular Commissioners Court 22 meeting day; we can call any day we want. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why don't we say 24 December 1st? What's December 1st? 25 MS. SOVIL: Monday. 10-14-03 157 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why don't we have it 2 December 1st? 10 o'clock? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then give a full 4 month to negotiate and decide. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We just have a special 6 meeting on -- you know, if we have it at 9 o'clock on the 7 1st, we could just have a meeting at 10 o'clock, accept the 8 bids and refer them for whatever we need to. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: When -- when are the bids 10 going to be available for the -- the Request for Proposal, 11 when -- when are they going to be available for pick-up? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As soon as possible. I 13 mean, Tommy, how long will it take to get that together? 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You said on or 15 before November 1, Judge. That sounds reasonable to me. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: That's probably -- I would 17 think that's reasonable. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm sure that's reasonable. 20 I mean -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: 11/1. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: -- it's not my data, so -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: The Treasurer's the one to 25 answer this, because she -- she would be the one to -- to 10-14-03 158 1 gather that information from -- from her records. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Proposals will be received not 3 later than? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 9 a.m. December 1st. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: 12/1 at 9 a.m. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Bid packets will be 7 available on or before November 1. 8 MS. SOVIL: Who's going to make up the bid 9 packet? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I don't know whether you 11 can use "on or before." I think we got to have a date, 12 don't we, Tommy? Specific date? 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah, I think you need to 14 have a date. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On November 1st. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What day is 17 November 1st, please, ma'am? 18 MR. HOLEKAMP: It's a Saturday. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: We're going to have to back 20 that up. 10/31? 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: December 30th -- I 22 mean October 30th. 23 MS. SOVIL: 31st is Friday. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: 10/30 or 10/31? What did you 25 put down? 10-14-03 159 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 10/31. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Does that fit with your 3 motion? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all in there. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 MS. SOVIL: Are you still in discussion? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Any question or 8 discussion on the motion, as stated? 9 MS. SOVIL: You didn't say in your discussion 10 who's going to put together the bid packets, and you didn't 11 say who was going to put out the newspaper ad. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The newspaper -- well, 13 Tommy, don't you usually put together these bid packages? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: I have for property coverage, 15 or I've -- not this time, I haven't. The Judge did. But I 16 think this falls within the scope of Personnel. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Since it's employee coverage. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Employee benefits. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm going to be -- I have a 23 conference next week for four days. I'm going to be out of 24 town. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think the 10-14-03 160 1 Treasurer's got all the data, employee demographics, 2 experience. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Should have, yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you draw some 5 money for your per diem? 6 MR. TOMLINSON: It's in the process right 7 now. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: You can be first, right after 10 him. And what's -- where it's going to be published? 11 MS. SOVIL: No. Who is going to make up the 12 language to put in the paper for -- 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: County Treasurer. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: County Treasurer. And I 15 think it would come out of the -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: County Court budget. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Our budget. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Or Commissioners Court budget. 19 Not the County Court, no. 20 MS. SOVIL: I think that needs to be part of 21 your court order, so there's no misunderstanding on who does 22 what. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: She's probably right. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, Judge, are you going 25 to repeat that motion? 10-14-03 161 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. Yes, be happy to. 2 Motion's been made and seconded that we authorize Request 3 for Proposals to be prepared by the Personnel officer, that 4 being the County Treasurer, for health insurance coverage 5 plans for the County employees for the period January 1, 6 2004 through September 30, 2004, with proposals to be 7 submitted on current coverage benefits as a benchmark, and 8 then any alternate proposals that the proposer wishes to 9 submit, such Request for Proposals to be picked up on or 10 after October 31, '03, and to be -- and proposals to be 11 received not later than December 1, '03, at 9 a.m. 12 MS. SOVIL: And opened? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: And opened on that date, yes. 14 MS. SOVIL: 10 o'clock? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 9 o'clock. If we get 16 them at 9:00, might as well open them at 9:00. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Any further question or 18 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 19 your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good job. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that it, Judge? I 10-14-03 162 1 want to go back to one, revisit it just for a second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We've got a couple of them 3 that we can revisit. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, just -- I only 5 want to revisit one. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just wanted to ask, 8 on the per diem and travel issue, if Thea is comfortable 9 with the amount of information she has so that she can put 10 together a paper of some sort? 11 MS. SOVIL: Well, all except -- do we have a 12 court order on mileage? We -- I know it was discussed that 13 we were going to follow the state guidelines on mileage, but 14 I don't know if there's a court order, quote, unquote, that 15 says we -- we're going to adopt the state mileage rate, and 16 when it changes, ours will automatically change. I know it 17 was discussed. That's the only thing that's kind of left up 18 in the air. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Personally, I think we 20 did, but I couldn't put my hands on it. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm sure we did. 22 MS. SOVIL: Okay. That was the only thing. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we did that 24 part of it. 25 MS. SOVIL: To answer your question, I can 10-14-03 163 1 put together a draft. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine. You 3 know, I just -- I just know that this issue is going to pop 4 up over and over again, and I'd like to have our office and 5 Tommy's office and the Treasurer's office to have a -- a 6 piece of paper with the same language on it so we can all be 7 on the same horse -- riding the same horse. 8 MS. SOVIL: We're going to bring it back next 9 time? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. Is -- do you 11 agree or not agree? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: We're on the same horse? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That we're all riding 14 the same horse. This is -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: We all need to be, I know 16 that. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what we're 18 trying to do. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You were talking about 20 per diem; when I came back, we're riding horses. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just think this is 22 one of those issues that's going to come back and come back 23 and come back and come back, and we're going to end up 24 saying, you know, what did we do back in 2003? You know, 25 it's one of those things, if we can get it down in writing 10-14-03 164 1 so we can have something. 2 MS. SOVIL: It's good to put it in the 3 minutes, and no one ever questions it. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So ten-four, good 5 buddy. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Generally right. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all I wanted to 8 revisit. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All revisiting is off? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Far as I'm concerned. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Time to go back on your 12 medication, right? Okay. Are we -- are we going to go back 13 to the O.S.S.F. matters? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I visited with the County 15 Treasurer prior to lunch about the job descriptions, and she 16 was working on them, and evidently she hasn't had -- you 17 know, she was going to try to get them done this afternoon 18 before we left. But she hasn't, obviously, so I think we 19 will have to meet tomorrow morning on that. I think it is 20 important enough for us to come back tomorrow morning to get 21 that resolved so we can advertise for those positions. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're busy till 23 11:00, you said? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I should be through about 25 11:00, yeah. I think 11:00 is going to work for me. I 10-14-03 165 1 haven't seen the -- the number that I've got to hear 2 tomorrow, but I'm generally -- 3 MS. SOVIL: How long do you think it will 4 take? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The job descriptions? I 6 don't feel it's going to take long at all. 7 MS. SOVIL: Why don't you do it at 8 o'clock? 8 And then we get it over with and out. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's fine, too. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Fine with me. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I wouldn't mind 12 giving the County Treasurer long enough to get it -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm thinking she may -- she 14 may need until late morning or early afternoon to get it 15 done, and either way, we're within 24 hours. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm okay with 17 whatever you all want to do. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't make any 19 difference to me. I just think it's important enough that 20 we get it taken care of tomorrow. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Come in at noon and 22 let Motley buy us pizza. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want a peanut butter 24 sandwich. 11:00 is fine. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 11 o'clock. 10-14-03 166 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we'll announce that when 2 we -- are we ready to move on to -- does anybody need -- 3 have a need to go into executive session on the matters 4 stated on the agenda? If not -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is there a matter 6 stated on the agenda? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, two different areas of 8 consideration, litigation and personnel. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We had -- seemed like, 10 to me, last meeting we had an executive session on a 11 particular issue. Is it not time to come back and talk 12 about that more? Or -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean, I don't have 15 anything new to bring to the table. I'm -- if we were going 16 to go -- I'd want somebody to tell me what's going on. Has 17 anything moved on the deal? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know. We can go into 19 executive session and find out, if you want that. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. If -- Motley, do 21 you have anything to report from last meeting? 22 MR. MOTLEY: Well, I wouldn't say I have 23 anything new. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. That's it. 25 MR. MOTLEY: But I'd be happy to meet in 10-14-03 167 1 executive session to be sure what it is y'all are talking 2 about. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Visions of Get Smart. 4 (Discussion off the record.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I guess that brings us 6 to the approval agenda. Payment of the bills. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move we pay the bills. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I second that motion. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's made and seconded 10 that we pay the bills. Any question or discussion? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only comment I have is 12 that we sure pay attorneys a lot of money every month. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Shhhh, you can't say 14 that. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got two 16 questions. First one is on Page 12. This question is for 17 my continuing education. What's the history behind paying 18 the birthday moneys to these various organizations and 19 persons? 20 MR. TOMLINSON: That's a Commissioner Baldwin 21 question. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm on Page 12. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Child Service Board 24 expense, birthday moneys. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Child Service Board. 10-14-03 168 1 I still don't see it here. Where is it? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: 630, down -- two-thirds of the 3 way down the page. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, Health and 5 Emergency Services? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're required to have 8 a Child Service Board -- is that the correct word? -- Child 9 Service Board, and we do. And this Court is not required to 10 provide these kind of services, but we have chosen to do 11 that through the years. It is children that have been taken 12 from their homes and -- and that are in the care of, 13 usually, the State facility. 14 MS. SOVIL: C.P.S. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sorry? 16 MS. SOVIL: C.P.S. children. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: C.P.S. children, if 18 that makes sense to you. And many times, when they get -- 19 they get taken from their home, they're taken in their 20 pajamas; no toothbrush, no hair comb, no soap, no nothing, 21 and this Commissioners Court has chosen to provide those 22 kinds of things. And then, annually, they get together and 23 have a Christmas party, and this, nine times out of ten, is 24 the only time that they receive any kind of Christmas gift. 25 We do that -- seems like, to me, we pay -- we buy their cap 10-14-03 169 1 and gown, maybe, for graduation, if they reach that point. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And birthdays. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Birthdays. 4 MS. SOVIL: We give them $25 each for their 5 birthday usually. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why are you asking me? 7 Everybody else knows. (Laughter.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what it says, is 9 "birthday." 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, is it? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That's why -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's why I found it. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That's why we were telling 14 you. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. But they -- 16 and they all have birthdays. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Every year. Every year 18 they have one. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I've had many more 20 than they've had. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Unlike some women you know, 22 these children have birthdays. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, they do. And 24 it's -- to me, it's an honor to be able to help them. This 25 is the only -- for many, many of them, it's the only thing 10-14-03 170 1 that they receive in the form of gifts. It truly is. I 2 have -- I have acted as a Santa Claus for their Christmas 3 party, and I'll tell you, it will jerk your heart out. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's big-time. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: When were you the Santa Claus? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's about -- about 8 three years ago. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Did they ask to you return? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They have not asked me 11 to return. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we'll have to look into 13 that. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I enjoyed myself. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They didn't want you to 16 gain any more weight. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can fit in the suit 18 now. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The -- I recognize 21 some of these names on here. And, for example, Hill Country 22 Youth Ranch has about 85 children, and I think what I see is 23 that every month, we make a $25 contribution, so apparently 24 that $25 doesn't go to an individual child. They also have 25 a -- their Auxiliary has a program where each child is 10-14-03 171 1 sponsored by a person in the community, and when it's their 2 birthday, they get a cake delivered, a card, and I think 3 it's $20 in the card, or $10 or something. So, I think what 4 I'm hearing is this is a way to help underwrite the expenses 5 of children that are wards of the state, and we're happy to 6 do it. On Page 14, fourth item from the bottom, Benno's 7 Electric, $9,250, rewire arena barn, extra breaker panel. 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: Those were the major 9 improvements that we had scheduled for last year in the Ag 10 Barn budget to rewire the indoor arena. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's all I've got. 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: To bring it up to code. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: For additional information, 14 on -- where you see the three letters, "enc", in this 15 department's report, that means that that item is charged 16 against the prior year. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay, thanks. 18 That's all. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: What does "enc" stand for? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Encumbered. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Encumbered. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any other questions or 23 comments? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 24 your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10-14-03 172 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 4 amendments. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: I have two. I -- Number 1 6 relates to '02-'03 year. It's for Records Management 7 Preservation. We had budgeted $5,000 for records 8 preservation for -- for the District Clerk. The bill -- no, 9 I'm sorry, we budgeted $4,500, and the bill came in at five. 10 So, my request is to increase this -- this budget by $500 11 to -- to make this payment. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 15 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 1. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: I do -- I do need a hand 17 check to go with this. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, hand check to -- 19 MR. TOMLINSON: It's to Hart Intercivic for 20 $5,000 for records -- restoration of civil records. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. To include hand check 22 to Hart Intercivic for $5,000. All in favor of the motion, 23 signify by raising your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10-14-03 173 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Budget Amendment Request 3 Number 2. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: We have a situation here that 5 we -- we have a -- we have line items in the budget that do 6 not exactly mirror the court orders passed during the budget 7 process. I've attached Page 165 and 166, and 179 and 180 8 out of the transcript. Specifically, on Page 165, item -- 9 Line 21 through 25, and on 166, Line 1 through 3. And then, 10 on Page 179, it's Line 5 through 10 and 16 through 25. And 11 then, on Page 180, it's Line 1 through 4, and it has to do 12 with -- with the mental health fees charged at the State 13 Hospital. Essentially, the -- the order called for the line 14 item, Mental Health, and 10-426-104, which is the County 15 Court, to be $16,000, with the proviso that -- that the 16 Justice of the Peace -- salaries for Justice of the Peace 17 Precincts 2, 3, and 4 would not exceed their regular salary 18 plus -- plus the $2,000 that they receive for that. So, the 19 request for the amendment is to increase the Mental Health 20 line item by $10,000, decrease the elected officials' 21 salaries for Justice of the Peace Precinct 2, 3, and 4 by 22 $3,333. I'm sure you all recall this issue. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't know that I 24 anticipated doing anything to the -- to the J.P. salaries. 25 I realize there was a proviso there. 10-14-03 174 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, we -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That may be the only way you 3 can get there. I don't know, but -- 4 MR. TOMLINSON: I think that's the only way I 5 can get there and pay them the same amount. 'Cause I -- 6 what I'll do is pay them out of the Mental Health line item, 7 as we are now. We already do that. So, part of their 8 salary comes from -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, $2,000 of it comes from 10 there. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. So -- so $5,333 will 12 come from there, the way I see it. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me say it back 14 to you and make sure I understand. We budgeted to increase 15 the J.P.'s salaries by the cost-of-living amount. Was that 16 2.5? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And we voted to 19 increase their compensation another $1,000 on top of that, 20 but we did not vote to increase the -- the amount, which was 21 $2,000, that they receive for conducting these mental health 22 hearings. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: I think -- I think we did. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Said another way -- 25 try it again -- we agreed to increase their gross 10-14-03 175 1 compensation by 2 and a half percent, plus $1,000. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: I agree with that, yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Is this doing 4 something on top of that? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: No, this does not do 6 anything. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This is just moving 8 numbers around between accounts? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah, that's correct. 10 Between -- between the budget for each J.P. and County 11 Court. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where it's changed is 13 where the money's coming from? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: That's exactly right. That 15 change reflects the transcript as to what actually happened. 16 Anybody see anything different? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: It's not going to increase the 18 gross compensation to the J.P. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: It remains the same. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Sovil? 23 MS. SOVIL: The only problem I have is you -- 24 you have to -- we published their increase as it was in the 25 paper, and the law says you can't change that. You can only 10-14-03 176 1 pay according to what is published in the paper. We got an 2 opinion on that, remember? That if -- if there -- if you're 3 going to change anything -- I don't know that you can change 4 it at this point. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not changing. 6 We're just changing where the funds come from. We just are 7 pulling their salary from pot A instead of pot B. We're not 8 changing what they get paid at all. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The amount of compensation 10 under what he's proposed here -- 11 MS. SOVIL: I understand that, but are you 12 changing the amount of salary or the amount of -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Of mental health? 15 MS. SOVIL: Yes. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 17 MS. SOVIL: It wasn't changed -- you can't 18 pay them, then, because, if you'll remember, the County 19 Attorney's opinion from Seguin -- I mean, not the County -- 20 the A.G. opinion from Seguin said that they couldn't pay any 21 more than what was advertised in the paper -- publicized. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thea, we're not -- 23 we're going to pay them the exact same amount that was 24 advertised. 25 MS. SOVIL: Okay. As long as -- you can't 10-14-03 177 1 change what was advertised. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not changing, we're 3 just changing where the money comes from that we're paying. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: That's right. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 6 MS. SOVIL: I'm just -- 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Keep us straight. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval of Budget 9 Amendment 2. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 12 approve Budget Amendment Number 2. Any further question or 13 discussion? All in favor of the budget amendment, signify 14 by raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Okay, that's 19 all the budget amendments. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Boy, you know how to 21 stir it up. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have any late bills? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: None whatsoever. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I have before me 25 minutes of the special session Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003; 10-14-03 178 1 the minutes of the regular session of Commissioners Court 2 Monday, September 8, 2003; minutes of the regular session of 3 the Commissioners Court Monday, September 22, 2003. Do I 4 have a motion to approve these minutes as presented? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So moved. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 8 the minutes as presented be approved. Any question or 9 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 10 your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. I have before 15 me monthly reports from the Sheriff's Department, County 16 Clerk, Justice of the Peace Precinct 3, and Justice of the 17 Peace Precinct 4. Do I have a motion to approve these 18 reports as presented? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 22 the monthly reports as presented from the Sheriff's 23 Department, County Clerk, Justice of the Peace Precinct 3, 24 and Justice of the Peace Precinct 4 be approved. Any 25 further question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 10-14-03 179 1 signify by raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Okay. 6 Gentlemen, do we have any other reports of any kind? 7 Elected officials? Department heads? 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I attended the 9 airport -- Joint Airport Advisory Board meeting last week, 10 and what I heard was a very good and thorough presentation 11 on the status of projects, an update on that. And the 12 issues that we talked about in here recently, the contract 13 with Mooney and the status of the board's authority, were 14 not discussed. So, nothing -- nothing significant to report 15 there. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other reports? Being 17 nothing else, I will declare the meeting adjourned. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 19 MS. SOVIL: Recessed. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Excuse me, declare the meeting 21 in recess until 11 a.m. Tuesday -- or, excuse me, Wednesday, 22 October the 15th. I'll get it right. 23 (Commissioners Court recessed at 2:45 p.m.) 24 - - - - - - - - - - 25 10-14-03 180 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 21st day of October, 8 2003. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10-14-03