1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, November 3, 2003 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X November 3, 2003 2 PAGE 3 --- Commissioners' Comments 3 4 1.1 Consider and discuss hiring of personnel for Kerr County On-Site Sewage Facility Program 5 5 1.2 Consider and discuss transition and operation 6 of the Kerr County On-Site Sewage Facility Program 6 7 1.3 PUBLIC HEARING - Proposed OSSF Rules and 8 Regulations 25 9 1.4 Consider and discuss adoption of the proposed OSSF Rules and Regulations 29 10 3.1 Action as may be required on matters discussed 11 in Executive Session 45 12 --- Adjourned 60 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, November 3, 2003, at 9:00 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call to order the 7 special Commissioners Court meeting scheduled for this date, 8 Monday, November 3, at 9 a.m. It's a couple minutes after 9 9:00. Since this is a regular meeting, I'll call on 10 Commissioner Williams to do the honors this morning. 11 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: At this point on the agenda, 13 if there's any citizen who wishes to come forward and speak 14 on a matter that's not listed on the agenda, why, you're 15 privileged to do so at this time. Is there any member of 16 the public, or anyone else for that matter, that wishes to 17 speak on a matter that's not listed on the agenda? Not 18 hearing anyone step forward -- seeing no one to step 19 forward, we'll move on to the next item. Any Commissioners' 20 Comments? We'll bypass 2 for the moment and go on to 3 -- 21 no, 2's here. We'll start with you, Commissioner 2. Do you 22 have any comments this morning? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, sir. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: 3? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My only comment is that 11-3-03 4 1 the -- related to hunting season. I remember in years past, 2 when I was young, there was a -- the Commissioners Court had 3 a great deal to do with setting hunting season dates and 4 things of that nature, and I don't know if we have that 5 authority any more or not. Limits and dates -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: God, I hope not. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- and -- 'cause I 8 remember there were -- you know, there were hearings, and 9 Judge Neunhoffer was always very much in the middle of that. 10 And, to me, if we do have that authority, we might want to 11 look into it a little bit. It is really ridiculous to open 12 as early as this; miserable opening weekend, because of the 13 date. Parks and Wildlife has chosen to go with the first 14 Saturday in November. And, you know, I don't know if anyone 15 -- when I went by Kerrville Airport Friday afternoon late, 16 and usually on the opening Friday before, it's just packed 17 with airplanes, and I didn't see hardly anything -- any 18 activity there. So, anyway, I just think it's something we 19 may want to look at, 'cause it's -- or at least, if nothing 20 else, pass a resolution asking Parks and Wildlife to 21 reconsider their opening date, 'cause it's an important part 22 of our existence around here. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I remember some of the 24 old debates that you're referring to. It was, if you 25 remember, the killing of does, antler -- 11-3-03 5 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Spikes. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Spikes and those kind 3 of things. Seems like the County was really involved in 4 that kind of thing. But I agree with you, we have a pretty 5 good little hunting operation, and we killed absolutely 6 nothing, but got into a bunch of hogs that came through. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's a plus. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's a plus. 9 But no deer, that we can talk about in public. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: 4, do you got any comments? 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No, but that's 12 interesting. I assumed we didn't have any authority on 13 that, but -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we may not. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think we do. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: 1? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just made them. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much 20 for the opportunity to speak. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We'll move on to the 22 consideration agenda. Consideration and discussion of 23 hiring personnel, Kerr County On-Site Sewage Facility 24 Program. Commissioners Letz and Nicholson. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We need to go into 11-3-03 6 1 Executive Session. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, why don't we -- 3 before we do that, can't we discuss process, and also the 4 next agenda item a little bit? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Let me go ahead 6 and call the next agenda item. You kind of melding them 7 both together here? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's hard to separate 9 them sometimes. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I'll go ahead and call 11 the second agenda item, then, consideration and discussion 12 of transition and operation of Kerr County On-Site Sewage 13 Facility Program. We'll consider both Item 1 and Item 2 14 together. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the second item, 16 really, that's one of the -- to bring the Court up to date, 17 I think Commissioner Nicholson is. In -- in trying to get 18 the property shifted that's over there over to the County, 19 vehicles were the main thing. There's insurance issues and 20 other things. Anyway, so they put together a quick bill of 21 sale and assignment of all the property that we're taking. 22 I ran it through David Motley's office; he had no problem 23 with it, and the vehicles -- the two vehicles are added to 24 our insurance. The -- and I'll just -- you know, Thea -- we 25 can get it in everyone's box; we can read the full list. 11-3-03 7 1 Basically, we're getting the vehicles, cameras, office 2 equipment, things of that nature. The amount is $14,600, 3 which is a little bit higher than we had thought originally, 4 and that is because it came down to the issue of the file 5 cabinets. This is just -- the file cabinets the County sent 6 over to U.G.R.A. are now at Headwaters, and they don't have 7 file cabinets for us, so they're giving all they have, 8 except the ones -- their big ones that they currently use 9 are quite -- a whole lot more expensive than what we sent 10 over there, that we can double. Anyway, we bought enough of 11 those at half price, and that was $1,600, rather than go to 12 Headwaters and try to grab our files -- or grab our file 13 cabinets and leave their files on the floor. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we're tacking 15 $1,600 to the 14,6? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, it's -- 14,6 is the 17 total amount. We had negotiated a $13,000 deal, and now 18 it's 14,6. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And, Jonathan, in 20 the rough budget we were working off, we had 16,5. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, we're in pretty 23 good shape. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not bad there. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The other thing -- 11-3-03 8 1 excuse me, Jon. The other thing we talked about is that 2 Headwaters, U.G.R.A., and Kerr County all have the same 3 taxpayer base, so taking from one and giving to the other 4 one is -- has got a zero net impact on taxpayers. I think 5 -- I think this is a fair deal. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: As a matter of fact, 8 I think they treated us pretty well. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The 14,6 was separate and 10 apart from the vehicles? Or including -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Includes the vehicles. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Includes the vehicles. And 13 there's two vehicles there? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you remember the 16 ages of those vehicles? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One's a '99, and one's a 18 2000 Jeep Cherokee. There are the VIN numbers. No, it's a 19 '98 and 2000. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We got those at more 21 or less wholesale. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, wholesale. And 23 part of our deal was -- they wanted a little bit more. 24 We obligated, and I use the term loosely -- something I 25 think we really need to do is public education a little bit, 11-3-03 9 1 spend some money in that area. U.G.R.A. is going to match 2 whatever we spend, and so we can get -- do more of that and 3 try to tie it with some water quality issues. The total 4 amount for the sale and the education, we agreed to $18,000 5 as a total there, but when they raised the price, I backed 6 down. It was at five. I said, "Well, we can't afford to do 7 $5,000 public education." This is only four. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Added on the 14,6? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Added on 14,6 in the 10 budget. Really, what we were doing, basically -- I think 11 U.G.R.A. agreed, what we were trying to do is get them to 12 commit some money to help with public education. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: So, you're looking at -- the 14 difference between 18 and 14,6 is $3,400? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $3,400, public education 16 commitment from us and them. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who's going to take 18 the lead in forming an educational program? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The O.S.S.F. Department, 20 I hope. And, I mean, that's something I think that they 21 need to -- and there's no rush on it, but it's a matter of 22 getting with them and let them decide. But, anyway, that's 23 just kind of an update on that. The vehicles were the most 24 pressing item, and those were taken off of U.G.R.A.'s 25 insurance today, or are being taken off today, and they were 11-3-03 10 1 added to the County's on Friday or this morning. Anyway, 2 that's been done; didn't have any lapse in coverage. That's 3 the reason I went ahead and signed this based on the court 4 order that authorized Commissioner Nicholson and I to 5 proceed with the -- you might hand this to Thea. This is 6 the original, and we have Janet Robinson's signature coming 7 over today, the original. 8 Just an update from talking with Commissioner 9 -- not Commissioner, former Commissioner Holekamp, 10 Maintenance Director Holekamp. There again, they're a 11 little bit further behind, or a little bit behind schedule 12 because of some of these issues of painting, taping, 13 floating; just can't get it done, and they have to let it 14 dry in between. We're on target for the 15th, but may not 15 be on target for Friday, but they're proceeding downstairs. 16 That's really all I had on the transition. That's kind of 17 where we are. But -- oh, I guess the other item is, Stuart 18 Barron, Judy Carr, and Tish Hulett have all agreed to -- are 19 working today on a contract basis. Miguel Arreola, in the 20 courtroom, is not because of some other obligations. So, 21 there -- so, we are open for business over at U.G.R.A. 22 today, through the agreement we have with them. 23 The other item I think we possibly need to 24 deal with before we go into closed session is exactly what 25 we need to hire today, because I think we need to interview 11-3-03 11 1 them. We kind of know the mix, due to some further 2 discussions and Commissioner Nicholson and I talking a 3 little bit more. There are some that recommend that we need 4 two clerks and one inspector instead of two inspectors and 5 one clerk, and we're not real sure -- I think, you know, 6 what the best way to set up the program is -- my personal 7 feeling is, today, is to hire -- hopefully hire one 8 inspector or one clerk. And that's, of course, based on a 9 little -- contingent upon what happens with the interview 10 process. We hopefully will have someone that we can agree 11 on hiring, and possibly go along for a short period of time 12 with a smaller staff, maybe a week, two weeks, and figure 13 out -- and talk to the -- you know, the staff, see how 14 things -- you know, get some additional input as to what 15 that third person should be down there, whether it should be 16 an inspector or clerk. That's just my personal feeling. 17 I'm not sure if Commissioner Nicholson agrees with that 18 totally or not. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think that's -- I 20 think that's an option. I think what I've learned, my 21 assessment of it is that it can be done effectively with -- 22 with three people. And, listening to the people who are 23 currently doing the work, they are of the opinion that the 24 right mix is a manager/inspector -- manager-slash-inspector 25 and two clerks. My guess is that's probably a better mix of 11-3-03 12 1 people than -- than the first proposal, where we would have 2 a manager/inspector and a field representative and one 3 clerk. And part of -- after listening to the people who are 4 doing that work now, who are the ones that are best able to 5 assess those kind of things, I took a -- a harder look at 6 the job description of the current manager, and I think 7 you've got a copy of it in your material there. This -- if 8 you -- yeah, that's the page there. It's right behind that 9 page, Judge, I think. I had earlier made some -- made some 10 notes that this was Stuart Barron's current job. It's a lot 11 of administrative duties; budgeting, leave requests, 12 purchase supplies, things like that. It's the kind of -- 13 kind of position you see in a hierarchical organization. 14 Additionally, some of the duties will be removed from that 15 job; floodplain determinations, floodplain permits, et 16 cetera, floodplain orders. My conclusion is that you can 17 compress the manager/inspector job with the field 18 representative job easier than you can compress the two 19 clerical jobs. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And then that would 22 be even more feasible and more -- even better if one or more 23 of the two clerical positions became licensed, become 24 qualified to back up the manager/inspector and go out in the 25 field and make -- make determinations and inspections. So, 11-3-03 13 1 I'm agreeing with Jonathan. I think it's -- I'm still 2 convinced that we can do it efficiently with three people. 3 I think the right mix is manager/inspector and two clerical 4 people, and if -- if we can fit all that with making some 5 job offers and getting it staffed now, and getting it 6 running, then I wouldn't have any objection to waiting some 7 time on filling one of the jobs. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question of 9 the Commissioner. On your page about Stuart, identifying 10 what his job description was, you've got some penciled-in 11 notes at the bottom there. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Interface with 14 T.C.E.Q., do floodplain administration, review subdivision, 15 investigate the place to file cases. So, with the exception 16 of the floodplain we're getting removed, then that would 17 boil down, in your opinion, his job responsibilities from 18 the larger list above? 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mm-hmm. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that -- am I 21 reading that correctly? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, essentially, 23 this is the meat of the job, what you're saying. Preparing 24 the budget and approving leave requests and things like that 25 would still go on, but those are incidental things that 11-3-03 14 1 don't take -- require very much time. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, budget -- 3 budgetary responsibilities are essentially reduced, because 4 our budget process is -- 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Pretty simple. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- much different. 7 Leave requests, that's kind of a no-brainer. Purchase of 8 supplies is -- doesn't require a lot of time. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let the clerical 10 staff do that. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know what -- 12 how much time is involved interfacing with T.C.E.Q.; I have 13 no feel for that. So, you're saying it is greatly reduced? 14 That's what I'm hearing. I have one other thought about -- 15 not particularly that, but a question in looking at the 16 printed Page 2, that deals with the responsibilities of the 17 employee identified as Tish and employee identified as Judy. 18 The first employee has a great number of responsibilities, 19 it would seem. Pretty well occupy -- if there's any 20 business at -- in O.S.S.F., it pretty well would occupy an 21 employee's day. I'm curious as to the amount of work that 22 is Employee Number 2, under Judy, which goes to tracking 23 aerobic contracts and service reports and entering all that 24 database, preparing the notices, and filing cases in court 25 and so forth and so on. How much time do you understand 11-3-03 15 1 that requires, or has required? 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I believe it's a 3 full-time job. I don't think there's any slack there. I 4 also see that it's -- I think you see my note there that 5 75 percent of that job, at my best estimation, is due to 6 aerobic systems. That -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which we're not doing 8 away with. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No. But -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Unfortunately. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- they're badly 12 oversold, though, in my opinion. When we started down the 13 track that led us to where we are on aerobic systems, it 14 winds up costing the taxpayers and -- and landowners a lot 15 of money. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that -- I mean, 17 to follow up on that, aerobic systems, I think they're 18 clearly -- we're in a situation that we're going to have to 19 devote a lot of man hours -- clerical man hours to follow 20 that process. You know, I think we can probably improve 21 from the 75 percent time that was said, basically with some 22 technology improvements, and I think so we can make it less 23 time. But I think what that also does, it would free up 24 time to do, you know, some of the work or, you know, maybe 25 redivide the work between the two clerks and take some of 11-3-03 16 1 the work from the inspectors over to the clerks and give 2 them -- give the clerks a little bit more responsibilities, 3 little bit more to try to keep the inspector out of the 4 field as much as possible, and backed up by real strong 5 support staff in the office. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your comments, then, 7 would confirm my basic thought, that if we have an immediate 8 need in staffing in addition to a field person, we do need 9 two people inside, as the transition's going to be 10 difficult. I don't care what you say, it's going to be 11 difficult. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. And I think the 13 only -- you know, and I wouldn't be totally opposed to 14 hiring -- if we come up with plan, we're happy to go with 15 the two clerks and the one inspector today. I think that, 16 you know, there is a -- because the other point -- or item 17 out there that's kind of floating around is the Solid Waste 18 position, and that -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somebody has to keep 20 track of that. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, there's some 22 clerical job that goes to that, though not a great deal, but 23 there is some. There's also a possibility of that person, 24 in the future, or possibly even currently, becoming a 25 licensed inspector of O.S.S.F. So, I mean, I think in the 11-3-03 17 1 long term, we've already got half or a part-time position 2 there. And that part-time, you know, if we're, you know, 3 short, could be put in a full-time position and delete that 4 part-time position. So, I mean, I think there's some things 5 we can maneuver around with that Solid Waste position. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And in that 7 connection, last week at the AACOG Board, there's a whole 8 basket full of money available, more grants. We 9 participated in some of those grants to get this program 10 started, and we're eligible to apply again. And, if that 11 were the case, that might help us expand the scope of that 12 department. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll tell you more 15 about that another court date. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other thing that 17 kind of relates to this, and an area that I think that we -- 18 not right away, but hopefully mid-year, when we're on a 19 little bit more solid ground -- want to look at is increased 20 enforcement. I think the rules are -- or the state rules I 21 think we're going to end up adopting are pretty strict, but 22 there are -- I don't think that we have been able to devote 23 enough resources into really pursuing that. And a lot of 24 that's clerical-type work. A lot of that is figuring out 25 what's what. I mean, it's going through records at the 11-3-03 18 1 Appraisal District, see who owns the property, and sending 2 out letters and just saying, you know, is this situation -- 3 you know, are you in compliance? And I think there's some 4 things that we can do in that area, which probably more 5 clerical staff need to do than inspector and staff. I'm 6 sure there would be some inspector staff as well. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would hope that, in 8 this transition to a new department, we would figure out a 9 way to make enforcement better than it has been in the past. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Exactly. Definitely. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. My vision for 12 all this is that, a year from now, we'll be looking back and 13 saying that not only are we doing this function more 14 cost-effectively, but we're doing a better job of protecting 15 the environment. That we're filing more claims, that we're 16 doing a better job of enforcement, and that the objective of 17 making sure that septics don't pollute the environment is 18 being fully achieved. 98 percent, maybe. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, let me see if I've got 20 the sense of what's being proposed at this point. And that 21 is that, initially, the proposal is that we try and obtain 22 two people, one field-type and one clerical-type, with the 23 option that if there is an additional clerical-type that 24 would -- if we're really sold on it, the possibility of 25 bringing a second clerical on board at this phase. Is 11-3-03 19 1 that -- is that the sense of what I'm hearing is proposed 2 today? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's not what I 5 would prefer, Judge. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What would you 7 prefer? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd rather see us put 9 two clerical on and not have any of the administrative stuff 10 fall through the cracks. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm not far away 12 from that position. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I could go either way. I 14 could go with what I said earlier -- Judge said or what I 15 said earlier. Just depends on the kind of discussion at the 16 end of the day. I mean, I think we're set up, and we're 17 interviewing, I think, enough candidates to fill any -- any 18 range we want. And it just depends on kind of how it goes 19 this afternoon or this morning on the interviews, to me. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the only -- the only 21 concern I would have is that, as I'm sure all of you know, 22 it's easier to add than it is to delete, and we want to make 23 sure we -- we're adding where we need to add. That we need 24 to add, and we're adding where we need to add. But, you 25 know, I think circumstances are going to dictate it, and it 11-3-03 20 1 may be we want to get a handle on the flow of this entire 2 process before we start parceling out any new position 3 and -- and bringing someone else on. But that's just a 4 matter of degree, I suppose. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I think 6 it's a real fine line of -- of your approach and what 7 Commissioner Williams is talking about; we don't want to get 8 behind the 8-ball, but we don't want to overstaff. And -- I 9 mean, and we just have to -- I mean, that's a tough call. 10 One thing, you know, as I frequently like to bring up, is 11 the -- let's see, I guess the -- what's a good word for it? 12 The problem in the way we do things. We all -- we didn't 13 authorize two administrative positions. We authorized one 14 administrative position and two inspector positions. So, 15 you know, I think we can -- probably could rectify that 16 based on the postings today, under our -- the spectrum, but 17 if we do go with two clerical staff today, we have to 18 remember that we have to authorize that position before we 19 hire somebody for that position. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would think 1.1 21 could do that. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: 1.1 or 1.2. Either one, I 23 think, can cover it on amending the prior authorization that 24 we may have -- may have done. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But just make sure that 11-3-03 21 1 we don't get -- you know, we need to remember to do it that 2 way so we don't get caught with a position that's not 3 authorized. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: The only other question would 5 be the advertising that we did. But, there again, there's 6 no requirement that we hire a candidate for any position, 7 and I think inherently we have the authority for -- if we 8 advertise for an administrative or clerical position, we can 9 hire one or 10 or 101, as far as that goes, if we so choose. 10 So, I don't see a problem with that. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We've got a list of 12 eight people we want to talk to, and I think it'll be a good 13 bit more clear after we talk to that eighth person, the 14 direction we ought to go. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: What is the -- what is the 16 plan on how we proceed with -- talking with these 17 individuals, these prospective employees? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We pretty much, I think, 19 starting at 10 o'clock, every 30 minutes -- or 10 o'clock, 20 every 30 minutes, have a slot filled. The idea would be 21 that we would do all the interviews in Executive Session. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You've got a list of 23 the people and the approximate times; they're in front of 24 you somewhere. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And those persons have 11-3-03 22 1 already been notified that we would prefer to have them here 2 at the estimated time? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Two of them are already 4 here. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anxious, ready to go to 7 work. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. Bright-eyed and 9 bushy-tailed, as they say, huh? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wow, with a tie on, I 11 didn't recognize you. 12 MR. BARRON: That's why I sat back here in 13 the back. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have any other items 15 that we need to concern ourselves with or discuss or take 16 action on under Item 1 or 2, other than the actual 17 interviewing of prospective employees? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we just need to 19 leave them open throughout the day. We can come back to 20 them if we need to. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I just have one 22 other cautionary housekeeping measure. We've got eight 23 people on that list, and I think we ought to treat that list 24 as confidential. Some of these people have jobs, and I 25 don't know whether or not they want it to be widely known 11-3-03 23 1 that they're interviewing for a different -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I think it's a pretty 3 confidential list, Commissioner; I don't have one. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Oh, you were going 5 to be sitting over here. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. 7 MS. SOVIL: I have personally -- or not -- 8 this Court has gotten numerous calls on the transition. I 9 wish you would reiterate the status right now of U.G.R.A. -- 10 of O.S.S.F. Are they to call -- people -- you just need to 11 reiterate what people are supposed to do for the next two 12 weeks. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- for the 14 time being, until other information is presented to the 15 public, they should continue to use the office. The staff 16 that is working at U.G.R.A. office building, that staff is 17 working on a contract basis for the County. And they can 18 use the same phone number. There's a notice over there on 19 their desk which states that, and states that the offices 20 will move to 700 Main Street at a time to be announced. And 21 the phone number will remain unchanged. Our actual phone 22 line will be a different number, but we're putting the old 23 O.S.S.F. phone number on a permanent call-forward to our new 24 numbers. With our phone system, if we transferred the exact 25 number over here, it wouldn't integrate into the courthouse 11-3-03 24 1 phone system. Which makes no sense to me, but -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me either. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It would be a 4 conflict with U.G.R.A. numbers, would it not? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This -- the number that 6 they use for O.S.S.F. is the one we transferred over there 7 from the County, from Road and Bridge; it's not their 5445 8 number. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, for now, they 10 continue to go the same place they've always gone to, and 11 call the same number. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And there's a fee 13 schedule over there that we adopted. 14 MS. SOVIL: And there will be inspections 15 done during this period? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, there will. A 17 little -- the scheduling could be a little bit difficult, 18 but just from -- 19 MS. SOVIL: Those are the questions I've been 20 asked. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- from the public 22 standpoint, there's -- at this time, there's no change. 23 Okay. There's really no reason we can't go into closed 24 session, and since we have some of the applicants here, 25 start the process now. 11-3-03 25 1 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I'm thinking. If 2 we don't have anything to do preliminarily in open session, 3 got nothing further at this time, then the Court will recess 4 from the open session and will go into closed session under 5 personnel matters in order to interview prospective 6 employees and other considerations in that regard for 7 O.S.S.F. 8 (Discussion off the record.) 9 (The open session was closed at 9:33 a.m., and an Executive Session was held, the 10 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 11 - - - - - - - - - - 12 (Commissioners Court recessed for lunch at 11:50 a.m. and reconvened at 1 p.m.) 13 - - - - - - - - - - 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll now call us back into 15 open session. The item for consideration at 1 o'clock is a 16 public hearing, so I will recess the Commissioners Court 17 meeting. 18 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 1:05 p.m., and a public hearing 19 was held in open court, as follows:) 20 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 21 JUDGE TINLEY: And I will open a public 22 hearing on the proposed O.S.S.F. Rules and Regulations, and 23 ask if there's any member of the public that wishes to 24 address the Court with regard to the proposed O.S.S.F. Rules 25 and Regulations. Any member of the public wishing to be 11-3-03 26 1 heard? Mr. Plangman? Come forward, please. If you'll gave 2 your name and address to the court reporter. 3 MR. PLANGMAN: Who do you give this to? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can give to it me. 5 Paper airplanes. Old Jewell. 6 MR. PLANGMAN: I'm Jewell Plangman. I live 7 at 625 Rimrock Road, Kerrville South. I moved here in 1986, 8 and at that time all I could see in the paper was that 9 Kerrville South was polluting Camp Meeting Creek. So, 10 U.G.R.A. decided to try to get a proposed a sanitary sewer 11 system to be put into Kerrville South. The citizens there 12 did not feel like it was adequate to do what it would need 13 to do, and they went before the Commissioners Court, and the 14 Commissioners Court ruled in their favor. Soon after that, 15 Commissioner Bill Ray formed an ad hoc committee to take 16 care of this situation. Using the existing state of Texas 17 regulations, we worked and performed -- and decided on what 18 was now printed in the original ones. But our main concern 19 was what was going to happen with the existing sanitary 20 sewer systems on sites that we couldn't have them inspected 21 right then, so we -- they were in a -- in a grandfather 22 clause. But, to take care of the -- to take care of the 23 reason to have them inspected, we put in there that at the 24 time of the sale of the property, it was mandatory that all 25 systems be inspected to make sure that they conformed to the 11-3-03 27 1 state and county regulations. 2 Now, soon after that, this County took over; 3 they formed a department, and Mr. Liedke was a head -- 4 appointed head of the department. And, from all I 5 understand, he was doing a good job; maybe doing too good of 6 a job, because the Commissioners Court harassed him enough 7 so he had to quit. He went to this same position at another 8 county, and I understand he's doing well there. You gave it 9 back to the U.G.R.A. to take over, and it seems like either 10 they aren't functioning the way they should or they're being 11 harassed or something. You want to change it now so that 12 there's no mandatory inspection. It's my belief that if you 13 change this, you're going to take us right back to 1990, the 14 way it was, because the state rules were in effect at that 15 time. Nobody was turning anybody in, that they were 16 polluting. You could see it in roads, in streets; it was 17 being polluted. Nobody turned in -- nobody did anything 18 about it. So, it's my opinion that -- that if you delete 19 this section of mandatory inspections, you're just taking it 20 and say, "Okay, son, grandson, granddaughter, great 21 granddaughter, this is your problem. We didn't want to take 22 it into account." I appreciate you allowing me to speak to 23 you, and thank you very much. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Plangman. Is 25 there anyone else who wishes to be heard on this issue? 11-3-03 28 1 Yes, sir? If you you'd come forward and give your name and 2 address to the court reporter. 3 MR. LIGON: Someone want this? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 5 MR. LIGON: Sure. My name is Robert Ligon. 6 I live out on Bandera Highway, and I'm in the process of 7 buying property in Center Point that has an old septic 8 system that works. But I believe that, under the present 9 system, if I buy that piece of property, it will have to be 10 inspected and it will automatically be declared unusable and 11 a new system will have to be installed, so I'm in favor of 12 us reverting to the -- use the present state of Texas 13 regulations, that there's no mandatory inspections in the 14 change during real estate transactions, and I believe that's 15 what we were addressing today. So, I would -- I would view 16 it very, very favorable to the people in the county if we 17 reverted to the state regulations. Thank you very much. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Ligon. We 20 appreciate you being here with us today. Is there any other 21 member of the public that wishes to come forward and be 22 heard with regard to this particular issue? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Coming in the door. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Could be. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any other member of 11-3-03 29 1 the public that wishes to be heard on the issue of proposed 2 O.S.S.F. Rules? If not, I'll declare the public hearing 3 closed. 4 (The public hearing was concluded at 1:11 p.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 5 meeting was reopened.) 6 - - - - - - - - - - 7 JUDGE TINLEY: And I will reconvene the 8 Commissioners Court meeting, and that will put us down to 9 Item 4, consideration and discussion of adoption of the 10 proposed O.S.S.F. Rules and Regulations. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, I have a 12 motion to make. I move that we approve the Order Adopting 13 Rules of Kerr County, Texas for On-Site Sewage Facilities, 14 and authorize the County Judge to sign the same. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 17 the proposed Order Adopting Rules of Kerr County, Texas for 18 On-Site Sewage Facilities be adopted, and the County Judge 19 be authorized to sign the same. Any question or discussion 20 on this? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a comment -- 22 I'm sorry. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, go ahead. My 24 question is a technical one. Are we adopting them or 25 approving them to send them to T.C.E.Q., so then we can 11-3-03 30 1 adopt them? Do we adopt first or do we approve first? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Didn't we cross that 3 bridge the other day? 4 MS. SOVIL: We adopt them and then send them 5 in for their approval. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think that's what 7 we decided. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Just wanted to 9 make sure we're approving and adopting in the right order. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Go ahead. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. There is 13 no secret of my feelings. I've wrestled with this for many, 14 many years, and Mr. Plangman was talking about the committee 15 that put it together, and I was on the court at that time, 16 and we struggled with it and looked at it from every point 17 on the face of the earth trying to figure out a way to cause 18 inspections and to do what we think or thought was the right 19 way to do this program. And the time of transfer was really 20 the only way that we could see that -- that it could be done 21 properly, and so that -- that program has rocked along all 22 these years. I still believe -- I don't know that that is 23 the best way; obviously, it is not. But I still believe -- 24 and I've said that at this table many, many times -- that I 25 feel like that there needs to be some kind of inspection 11-3-03 31 1 program, regardless whether it's at the time of sale or some 2 other bright and wonderful way, but I just really feel like 3 there needs to be an inspection of some sort. Now, saying 4 all that, I've also been here long enough to understand 5 how -- how it works. And my attitude of the thing is, even 6 though I disagree with what you're doing -- or what we are 7 doing, I also see that the motion is -- is going to pass, 8 and we will go back and adopt the state rules as written. 9 And, with that in mind, I'm not going to be the person that 10 throws up roadblocks. I'm the kind of guy that is going to 11 do some -- once we adopt it and get it moving, I'm going to 12 be one of these guys that is going to jump on board and make 13 it work to the best of our ability so that Kerr County will 14 have the very best system that they can have. That's all. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Commissioner. Any 16 other questions or comments? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, I have some 18 comments, which you might expect. Comes as no secret that I 19 have, as has been Commissioner Baldwin, not been in favor 20 of -- or, you know, probably radically opposed to the 21 elimination of the transfer rule, and probably, with not 22 quite as much enthusiasm, elimination of the 10-acre 23 exception -- exemption, whatever it is. I believe that we 24 probably didn't devote enough time to trying to find an 25 alternative method for finding and identifying failing or 11-3-03 32 1 out-of-compliance septic systems. But that's then, and 2 we're here now. I sincerely hope that, in the action that 3 we'll take today, that we are not sacrificing our 4 stewardship over water resource quality for political 5 expedience, but I know we have to move on. The rules have 6 to be adopted, and we have to -- we have to construct a 7 department, and hopefully we can do that with the best of 8 our collective intelligence and judgment. 9 Having said all that, I'm going to say one 10 more thing. The ultimate solution, or the answer to failing 11 septics is the construction of sewer collection systems and 12 making certain that that gets taken care of. We have one 13 underway in Kerrville South, and we've received moneys to do 14 that. I can assure you that this Commissioner will pursue 15 others so that we can finally find a solution to failing 16 septics, and I hope -- wherever and whenever possible. And 17 I hope that the Court will be supportive of those efforts 18 when I bring them back, or when others of us bring them to 19 us for consideration. I will abstain, because I know we 20 have to move forward. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or 22 comments? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a few comments. 24 And I guess I look at it a little bit differently than my 25 two colleagues in Precinct 1 and 2. I look at the -- 11-3-03 33 1 basically, the County has had a -- tried for going on 10 2 years -- close to or over 10 years now, to make a real 3 estate transfer rule work, and we've been unsuccessful. We 4 have yet to come up with language that is clear, is fair. 5 The current rules, we spent a great deal of time three years 6 ago, I guess, four years ago trying to clean it up, and all 7 we did was muddy the waters even more. And the problem is 8 that there is no way to determine if a system is failing, 9 and no one even knows what "failing" means, much less 10 determine if it is failing, unless you do a very invasive 11 inspection. And we -- this Court has never been of the 12 mind-set really to force that issue, to go into a full, very 13 invasive -- basically, dig up a system and see if it's 14 working, and it, frankly, doesn't make sense to do it that 15 way. 16 So, you know, the options we have is to -- 17 you know, and that's the only way you can do it, is to make 18 a system become licensed, you have to basically dig it up. 19 And there's plenty of old systems that are not licensed that 20 are working and functioning fine, so it never made sense to 21 make people dig them up for that reason. So, while real 22 estate transfer seems and sounded like a good time to do an 23 inspection, there's no feasible way that this Court, and I 24 don't think anyone else, you know, in the state has been 25 able to show me that you can do it. So, I think it's a -- 11-3-03 34 1 you know, I've come to the realization that it's a -- it's a 2 good intent, but it doesn't work very well. And I look at 3 our new rules as a -- kind of as an opportunity for the 4 County to, you know, use state rules to the maximum benefit 5 of state rules, and require a lot of inspections of property 6 and a lot of public education. 7 There is a tremendous misconception in the 8 county as to what we're doing today. People -- Mr. Plangman 9 made it sound like we're, you know, almost getting rid of 10 all the rules. Well, that's the farthest thing from the 11 truth. If -- because of the real estate transfer and other 12 things, it was kind of viewed, I think, in the past as the 13 way to catch septic systems. It didn't work. There are 14 many different ways. Anytime anybody alters a current 15 system in the county, by law, they're required to get that 16 system licensed at that time. That has not been done. The 17 10-acre exemption that Commissioner, Precinct 2 referred to, 18 that's a very, very limited exemption. Many people claim 19 that exemption when it doesn't qualify. So, I hope the 20 public doesn't view this as the County relaxing septic 21 rules. I view it the opposite way. I view it as a way for 22 us to devote our resources to really tightening up on a lot 23 of things that have been done improperly, probably, for the 24 last 10, 15, even longer. I think the rules -- state rules 25 are very clear that we have a lot of authority, and we just 11-3-03 35 1 need to use those rules to make sure and guarantee that we 2 have quality water throughout the county. That's it. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Very briefly, Judge, 4 I think this may be one of those rare cases where you can 5 have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. I think we can 6 make the program more efficient and less burdensome by 7 eliminating the real estate transfer rule, and I think that 8 will provide us the opportunity to focus more on -- on 9 enforcement of the state rules. I think we need to work 10 harder at finding those systems that are in trouble, and 11 requiring those owners to bring them up to our 12 specifications. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or 14 comments? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 15 your right hand. 16 (Commissioners Baldwin, Letz, and Nicholson voted in favor of the motion.) 17 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Record my vote as an 21 abstention. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: So noted. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, as the press is 24 here, these rules will not become effective until they are 25 approved by T.C.E.Q.; is that correct? 11-3-03 36 1 JUDGE TINLEY: That's my understanding. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The resolution or the order 4 will go forward. I can't imagine that they would not 5 approve it, since it's their model order, but -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You never know. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Upon receipt of that approval, 9 why, that will be the effective date. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, in your cover 11 letter -- I presume you'll put a cover letter with this when 12 we send it to T.C.E.Q. -- I'd appreciate it if you would 13 make reference to the fact that, in the Commissioners Court 14 opinion, this is the only -- these are the only rules for 15 Kerr County, and that we are the only authorized agent for 16 the county. And my reason for that is -- is to force an 17 issue on U.G.R.A.'s authorization status on the 1,500-foot 18 rule. It's up in the air still, and that needs to be 19 resolved. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just a second. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I make that in the 22 form of a motion. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, just a second. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If I need to. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Authorization status 11-3-03 37 1 for two agencies -- two governmental agencies in Kerr County 2 comes about by, my understanding, two separate sets of law, 3 and I don't know how we could take such an action like that. 4 We are, you know, the authorized agent because T.C.E.Q. did 5 it -- you know, gave us that authority. But U.G.R.A. also 6 has authority under another set of laws, given to them 7 either by the Legislature or the water -- or the Water Codes 8 and so forth. Doesn't seem to -- it seems to me that all 9 we're doing is reaffirming our own position. They have to 10 do whatever they have to do with respect to their position. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's true. But the 12 other side of it is that they're in the, I guess, position 13 of having two authorized agents, one kind of happening out 14 there in limbo, and one the acting. It needs to be 15 resolved, in my mind. And I think that -- I don't think 16 it's necessary; I think T.C.E.Q. will take action on their 17 own to force this issue, but I think that it needs to be 18 dealt with, because there is an argument that we do not have 19 authority in that 1,500-foot area. And U.G.R.A. -- in fact, 20 I would say if U.G.R.A. -- if that second authorization 21 status is valid, we do not have authority in the 1,500-foot 22 area, period. So, that means that part of the county is 23 left with no -- no one monitoring it, because we have no 24 local -- interlocal agreement with U.G.R.A. authorizing us 25 to act in that area. 11-3-03 38 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But our taking an 2 action instructing the Judge to write a letter doesn't 3 change that. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't change it, but it 5 brings it to the -- it puts it on the plate of the T.C.E.Q., 6 as opposed to leaving it in limbo. And if T.C.E.Q. has no 7 problem with leaving it like that, that's their decision. 8 They're the -- 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I support 10 Commissioner Letz' opinion, and remind the Court that the 11 County Attorney and the Judge have a letter that -- that 12 supports the claim that the U.G.R.A.'s position that they 13 have authority within 1,500 feet is not valid, because they 14 have not gone through the process to become an authorized 15 agent. So, whether they have or not I don't know, but I 16 agree that it needs to be cleared up. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you made a 18 very good point there. They have not gone through the 19 process to activate the enabling legislation. Having not 20 gone through the process, they have -- they haven't 21 fulfilled it, the area of the law that gave them this 22 potential authority. So, therefore, they probably don't 23 have the authority. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's my 25 understanding. 11-3-03 39 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's probably 2 true, but T.C.E.Q. has them as the authorized agent 3 currently. They are the authorized agent in that 1,500-foot 4 area. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because it was in 6 separate legislation. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because T.C.E.Q. gave it 8 to them in 1980, by letter. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you sure it was 10 T.C.E.Q.? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I mean, the -- 12 according to Ken Graber at T.C.E.Q., they sent the letter 13 that gave it to them. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd be much more 15 comfortable if the County Attorney would research it and 16 give us an answer. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd rather put it on the 18 burden of the State. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The County Judge. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just think it's -- and 21 this is nothing new to U.G.R.A. They're not going to wake 22 up with a, you know, "Oh, my god, look what the County's 23 done." This is -- I've discussed this exact process with 24 their General Manager, and he's fully aware of what I think 25 should be done, and he doesn't have -- has never indicated 11-3-03 40 1 any problem with that process, because I think he's one that 2 believes that they don't -- they do not have the authorized 3 agent status. And even -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because he never 5 requested it to be firmed up. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They've never pursued it. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's my point. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, since he's been 9 here. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, it's really 11 academic. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Something had to be 13 done, as I understand, in 1978 or '79. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And they did not go 16 through that process. Now, they may go -- they may decide 17 to go through it or not, but I think what Commissioner Letz 18 is saying is it needs to be cleared up. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We need T.C.E.Q. to 21 say, "Here is the situation," with respect to their 22 authority. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the reason it's not 24 academic is because, if we have a litigation that comes in 25 that 1,500-foot area, it will likely be thrown out, 'cause 11-3-03 41 1 we don't have -- we don't have authority, I would think. I 2 mean, it's not clear. I mean, if I was -- you know, if 3 there was a -- you go to the worst case -- a death because 4 of a nuisance systems or something like that, believe me, 5 they're going to research that rule. And, you know, if we 6 don't have authority to -- to do anything -- and so I think 7 there's -- it's a real down side if we don't get it 8 resolved. Now, the other option is that, if U.G.R.A. does 9 have it, then they can enter an interlocal agreement with us 10 and we can administer the program in their area, which is 11 fine too. I just think that we need to have it ironed out. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does anybody on the 13 Court know what T.C.E.Q. -- the predecessor, T.N.R.C.C., 14 gave us when they bestowed authorized agent status on us 15 originally? 'Cause, in that letter, you're going to find 16 out the answer to your question. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not sure what was in 18 that letter. I just know that Ken Graber says that, in 19 their files, there are two authorized agents in Kerr County. 20 Kerr County and U.G.R.A. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All that letter would 22 have to say would be entirety of Kerr County. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what it said? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know. I'm 25 asking. I don't know. 11-3-03 42 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All I'll say, I just 3 think it needs to be resolved. I think an easy, cheap way 4 for us to resolve it is to toss it up to Austin, and if they 5 don't think there's a problem, they won't do anything. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What you're proposing 7 is really not as painful as Commissioner Williams seems to 8 think it is. I see it as nothing more than a push. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: For T.N. -- whoever. 11 We can ask T.C.E.Q. to rectify the problem. Let's get the 12 lines drawn. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Make a decision. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is hard for them to 16 do sometimes. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't see you 18 mentioning that in a letter, taking away or giving to or 19 anything else. It's just encouraging to get this thing 20 done. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If -- if the -- it's 23 not really painful. If what we're seeking -- if we're 24 seeking nothing more than a clarification of our own status, 25 that we do, in fact, have authorized agent status over the 11-3-03 43 1 entirety of Kerr County, I don't have a problem with that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If that's what we're 4 seeking, is clarification by T.C.E.Q. that this Court has 5 authorized agent status for the entire area of Kerr County, 6 I have no problem with that. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's basically what I'm 8 asking. I'm just saying that the letter says that we are 9 the authorized agent for all of Kerr County. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's frame the 11 letter that way. 12 MS. SOVIL: With the exception of 13 incorporated cities. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Right, that's 15 true. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, municipalities, 17 whatever. Whatever they have, they have. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we need a motion to do 19 that, or just the Judge write it out of consensus? 20 MS. SOVIL: You're still on your other 21 motion; you haven't voted on it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We voted. 23 MS. SOVIL: Did you? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To make it clear, I'll 25 make a motion. 11-3-03 44 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I know exactly where you're 2 coming from. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: And I don't have a problem 5 with it. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- that the letter -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I can dictate you the letter 8 right now, and it will saying something to the effect, "It 9 is my understanding that the present position of Kerr County 10 is that Kerr County is the authorized agent for O.S.S.F. 11 matters for the entirety of Kerr County, excluding 12 incorporated cities." 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's my motion. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: "If this is not correct, 15 please inform us in writing immediately." 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you get that, 17 Ms. Sovil? 18 MS. SOVIL: No, but Kathy did. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 20 the letter contain such language. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any question or discussion? 23 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 24 hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11-3-03 45 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion carries 4 unanimously. Okay, we're going to resume our Executive 5 Session matters shortly, but before we do that, do we have 6 any other matters towards the end of the agenda that require 7 any action? I don't -- I don't see anything. No reports or 8 anything of that nature. That being the case, I will close 9 the open meeting and recess the open meeting of 10 Commissioners Court, and we'll go into executive, closed 11 session to consider personnel matters -- resume 12 consideration of those matters. 13 (The open session was closed at 1:30 p.m., and an Executive Session was held, the 14 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 15 - - - - - - - - - - 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Court will go back into open 17 session. It's 4:25. We've been in closed session 18 discussing personnel matters concerning staffing of the 19 O.S.S.F. Environmental Health Department. We're now back in 20 open session. Do I hear any matters to be offered 21 concerning the matter discussed in closed, executive 22 session? 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay, Judge, I want 24 to make a motion concerning the organization of the 25 Environmental Health Department of Kerr County, and -- and 11-3-03 46 1 make a motion recommending candidates for those positions. 2 My motion is that we staff it with a manager-slash-field 3 representative position and two clerical positions, and that 4 we offer the manager-slash-field representative position to 5 Miguel Arreola, at a base salary rate of $31,000 a year. 6 And we offer the -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do one at a time. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, let's do one at 9 a time. I'll second the motion. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 11 the Environmental Health Department be staffed by a 12 manager-slash-field representative and two clerical 13 positions, and that the manager/field rep position be 14 offered to Miguel Arreola at a salary of $31,000. Any 15 question or discussion or comments in connection with the 16 motion? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do have a question. 18 We had some discussions about the management -- the 19 inspector-slash-management position. Are we offering -- are 20 we offering both to Miguel at this time? And, if so, are 21 there any caveats that we want to convey to him with respect 22 to the management part of it? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the answer, to 24 me, is yes, we're offering both the inspector/manager 25 position, and the salary is probably a little bit -- is 11-3-03 47 1 lower than we advertised, and the reasoning is not as much 2 management experience as we would like to see, though we 3 think he can learn. And the additional funds that we would 4 save, I think we'll probably put in the budget for 5 management training for that position. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's key. You got 7 there. I think we should -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's $2,000 in the 9 budget for management training. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- express our desire 11 on the -- or not a desire. Express that it is a plus that 12 his management skills be improved through continuing 13 education. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further -- excuse me. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we handle that with 17 the budget -- when we adopt the final budget for that 18 department, putting those funds in there. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 20 discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 21 signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 11-3-03 48 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. My second 2 motion is that we offer a clerical job in that department to 3 Patricia S. Hulett at a salary grade of 17-7; that's $27,327 4 a year, and that the offer be contingent upon her 5 willingness to qualify to be a -- to perform the field 6 representative duties. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 9 we offer a clerical position to Patricia S. Hulett in the 10 Environmental Health Department at a grade and step of 17-7, 11 with a salary of $27,327, this offer being contingent upon 12 her acceptance of the requirement that she obtain proper 13 licensing or certification to become a field inspector -- 14 O.S.S.F. field inspector. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's it. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. We used 17 the term -- the generic term "clerical." What, in fact, is 18 the job title? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you have them over 20 here? 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think it's 22 administrative clerk. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Administrative clerk, I 24 believe. The -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: It's in the ad. 11-3-03 49 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The pay group was 2 established by the County Treasurer. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Based on the job 5 descriptions. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 7 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 8 your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The third motion 14 will be that we employ Judy K. Carr in that Environmental 15 Health Department as a clerk, at a salary grade of 15-5, 16 with an annual salary of $23,563 per year, and that she -- 17 the offer is contingent upon her agreeing to get the proper 18 licensing to qualify as the field representative. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 21 offer a clerical position in the Environmental Health 22 Department to Judy K. Carr at a step and grade of 15-5, 23 annual salary, $23,563, and further that the offer be on the 24 condition that she agree to obtain proper licensing or 25 certification as an O.S.S.F. field inspector. Any question 11-3-03 50 1 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 2 raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I'd like to 8 probably make one additional motion. I think we probably 9 can do this, and that would be that the employment date for 10 all three of these employees will be this morning -- or 11 include today. I think it resolves some issues of 12 independent contractor and some other paperwork issues, and 13 it also enables them to continue -- assuming they accept the 14 positions -- working tomorrow with our arrangement at 15 U.G.R.A. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second the motion. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So the hire date 18 would be effective 11/3? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: At beginning of business 21 today. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, today would be a work 23 day for them in the County. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 25 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 11-3-03 51 1 your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Question. Who's going 7 to notify these people? All of these people? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Dave. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You going to notify 10 everybody and tell them yea or nay? 11 (Commissioner Nicholson nodded.) 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Today? 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Going to try to. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You like that, don't 15 you? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I kind of left it 17 with them that we'd try to get done today, but it might be 18 tomorrow. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to do the ones 20 that we're hopefully hiring first. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tell them to get down 23 here tonight. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Hopefully, you'll find them 25 where they're supposed to be. That's working. 11-3-03 52 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, they're still 2 going to be performing their responsibilities for Kerr 3 County out at the U.G.R.A. building. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. My understanding, 5 unofficially, is that with this group of employees, there's 6 no problem with them continuing to use that current 7 facility. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Single move, at whatever date 9 it's going to be. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I would also 11 recommend, just from a courtesy standpoint -- well, I don't 12 know how can you can do it, is call Greg Etter and let him 13 know the situation. Because he needs to know that Stuart 14 was not selected. Is -- 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Are you going to do 16 that? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll do that. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Should you wait until we 19 know -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For sure. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: -- about the acceptance of 22 these positions? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I -- you know, or 11-3-03 53 1 I can also call Greg and say this is what we're doing. I'll 2 probably call Greg and say, "This is what we're getting 3 ready to do," so you're aware of it from the standpoint -- 4 they're about to close over there, anyway. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: May not need to. How quickly 6 do you work? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Might get it on 8 Channel 10 if she acts quickly. 9 MS. LAVENDER: We're not going to get it on 10 today's news. Probably tomorrow. I would hate to turn on 11 the news and find out that I'd been hired or not been hired. 12 That's not the way you do management. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else to come before 15 us, gentlemen? 16 MS. SOVIL: Yes, sir. We have a little 17 problem. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's new? 19 MS. SOVIL: Well, this was brought to my 20 attention. This is the county insurance bid. It will be 21 returned at 9 a.m. on the 10th day of November, and opened 22 on the 10th day of November at 10 a.m., which is a holiday. 23 This was sent out before y'all adopted the holidays. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, call them up 25 and tell them to change it. 11-3-03 54 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean, I think 2 there's -- I think they're due that day, but -- 3 MS. SOVIL: No, it says very clearly it will 4 be opened at 10 o'clock on the 10th. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, wait. What we 6 need to -- well, what I would do if I was in charge here -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You are. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- I would get three 9 of us in here to accept them and give them to the clerk, and 10 go back home till the following day. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can do that too. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm going to be here anyway. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll be around. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm in town. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Have to have a clerk. 16 MS. PIEPER: I was looking for a rubber band 17 to shoot at you. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. If I get a 19 tee-time, I'll call you. 20 MS. SOVIL: I just needed y'all to be aware 21 of what went down. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I thought we settled 23 all that a couple weeks ago, but -- 24 MS. SOVIL: Well, that was done assuming that 25 the 11th was a holiday, and y'all did a switch-a-roo on 11-3-03 55 1 everybody. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What day are we 3 taking off? Monday, the 10th? That's what we're taking 4 off? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The real holiday's 7 Tuesday. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, I know. 9 MS. SOVIL: Well, it might be -- we're not 10 going to get any mail that morning, because the courthouse 11 is closed. The post office will be closed on Tuesday. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: We may be obliged to accept 13 these until 9 a.m. the following -- 14 MS. SOVIL: Wednesday. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 16 MS. SOVIL: Because the 11th is -- the post 17 office is closed. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They can get it here; 19 everything's open on the 10th. 20 MS. SOVIL: No, we're closed on the 10th. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Courthouse is closed. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They can't deliver 23 them -- is there a possibility they can hand-deliver? 24 Always a possibility. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. With some of the 11-3-03 56 1 local ones, it's probably a reality, the way they would do 2 it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I guess the other thing that 4 we could do is find out from the Treasurer's office how 5 many -- 6 MS. SOVIL: It isn't the Treasurer; that went 7 to the Auditor's office. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. How many -- how many of 9 these packets were picked up? 10 MS. SOVIL: One that we know of that went to 11 TAC. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You know they'll be 13 here. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, yeah, we need to 15 try and notify them. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: There was only one packet 18 picked up? 19 MS. SOVIL: That's what Mindy told me. They 20 send it out. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can be in here on 22 Monday. 23 MS. PIEPER: Have the courthouse open on the 24 10th, since the actual holiday's on the 11th. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Then we have to staff it. 11-3-03 57 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Courthouse is going 2 to be open on the holiday; we're going to be taking off the 3 day before. We're shutting down, 'cause that's what we 4 adopted. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're closed the wrong 6 day. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: For the schools. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just to help the schools. 9 We should know better. 10 MS. SOVIL: Doesn't help me; I don't have 11 anybody in school. 12 MS. LAVENDER: That's why y'all are having 13 the Commissioners Court meeting, and they're having the V.A. 14 stuff that day. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, how do you want -- 16 how are we going to handle it, oh Great White Leader? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: I just heard reference that 18 you were in charge. Someone said you were. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Be here Monday. 20 I don't know how -- 21 MS. SOVIL: We'll have to post a meeting, 22 then. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, we will. That's 24 not a big deal. My god, it's not like this is rocket 25 science or anything. Just do it. Do we have to be here 11-3-03 58 1 to -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have a meeting? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, let's do it by 4 phone. Do we have to be here to receive the documents? It 5 says they shall be opened. Where's Motley? Does that mean 6 they shall be opened? Or they sort of be opened? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: To be opened on the 10th at 8 10 a.m. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What does that mean? 10 Is that a legal terminology that says we shall open them? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Looks to me like it's pretty 12 specific. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'll be here 14 Monday to help you open them. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Good. That's what we need. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. We need one 17 more guy to be here. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll be here if you need 20 me. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Letz will be here, so 22 we need to post a meeting for Monday. What time's the mail? 23 Do they send them by mail, or do they bring them in or what 24 do they do? Does Tommy already have it today? 25 MS. SOVIL: They usually wait till the last 11-3-03 59 1 minute and they come running in here at 5 minutes to 9:00, 2 if that's what time they're due. They'll come running in 3 with their packet. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do it at 9:00? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Will be received 6 until 9 a.m. on the -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll just have to be -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- 10th of November. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because the courthouse 10 will be closed, we'll just have to unlock these doors to 11 this building and just make it, you know -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be here at 9:00. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Lock it up when we leave. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Needs to be somebody here at 15 8:00. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 8:00? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be here at 8:00. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Beginning of business. And 19 then 9:00, of course -- after that, it doesn't make any 20 difference. We could -- the bids have got to be tendered by 21 9 o'clock. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And we could -- we 23 could open them and just -- 'cause there's going to be three 24 of us. Just open them and hand them to the clerk and take 25 care of the actual business the following day. 11-3-03 60 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the holiday. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: On the holiday that 3 we're going to be here anyway. We're going to be here in 4 Commissioners Court. Can we do that? We can either recess 5 it or actually add an agenda item to the Tuesday agenda. 6 MS. SOVIL: Consider and discuss awarding of 7 the bid or rejection of same. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Only hang-up now is 9 getting a clerk in here. 10 MS. PIEPER: And the court reporter. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And a court reporter. 12 Well, she -- she doesn't mind riding along with us. We're 13 going out to have dinner afterwards. 14 MS. PIEPER: Are you buying? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a real pertinent 16 question. I'm glad you asked that. Let's get his answer on 17 the record, if we might. Reporter's waiting. Any further 18 business? Everybody bailed out; I guess we're adjourned. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 4:42 p.m.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 23 24 25 11-3-03 61 1 - - - - - - - - - - 2 STATE OF TEXAS | 3 COUNTY OF KERR | 4 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 5 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 6 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 7 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 8 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 5th day of November, 9 2003. 10 11 12 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 13 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 14 Certified Shorthand Reporter 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11-3-03