1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, December 8, 2003 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X December 8, 2003 PAGE 2 --- Commissioners' Comments 4 3 1.1 Status of Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Advisory Board 6 4 1.2 Set public hearing for alternate plat process of Lots 83 and 84, Northwest Hills, Precinct 1 35 5 1.3 Approve FEMA project completion and certification report, Disaster Number 1425, and authorize 6 County Judge to sign same 41 1.4 Presentation of interlocal contracts for mental 7 health services for approval, authorize County Judge to sign same as they are returned 45 8 1.5 Request to use courthouse grounds on December 13 for rally in support of retaining acute care beds 9 at Kerrville V.A. facility 58 1.6 Resolution of support for retention of 20 acute 10 beds and 5 ICU beds at Kerrville V.A. Facility 61 1.7 Request to utilize the open area in lower level 11 of courthouse annex for a Christmas party for clients of Juvenile Probation Department 71 12 1.10 Set public hearing on authorizing the freezing of ad valorem property tax values on residential 13 property of owners who are elderly or disabled 72 1.8 County Attorney's advice on whether Commissioners 14 Court has legal authority to grant merit pay increases to employees 78 15 1.9 Approve policy and procedures for granting merit pay increases 82 16 1.11 Approve contracts between Kerr County and Ingram & Hunt VFD, authorize County Judge to sign same 85 17 1.12 Request to reserve and use southeast corner of courthouse square on April 8-10, 2004, for annual 18 mop and broom sale by the Kiwanis Club, Kerrville 85 1.13 Environmental Health Department (OSSF) procedures, 19 forms and fees 87 1.14 Discuss parking, installing signage, and policy 20 on exterior door use for Environmental Health 116 1.15 Authorize purchasing additional office equipment 21 and build-out for Environmental Health Department 127 22 4.1 Pay Bills 135 4.2 Budget Amendments 139 23 4.3 Late Bills --- 4.4 Read and Approve Minutes 143 24 4.5 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 144 25 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison reports 144 --- Adjourned 158 3 1 On Monday, December 8, 2003, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning. It's 9 a.m. 7 I'll call to order the meeting of the regular Commissioners 8 Court meeting that was posted for this time and date, 9 Monday, December 8th, 2003, at 9 a.m. At this time, I'd 10 like to call on Dr. Joe Taylor, pastor of Southern Oaks 11 church right down the road from me. 12 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much. Please 14 be seated. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thanks, Joe. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: At this time, if there's any 17 member of the public that has joined us that wishes to bring 18 any matter to our attention that is not listed on the 19 agenda, you're privileged to come forward at this time. 20 We'd welcome you to come forward. If you wish to talk to us 21 about a matter that is listed on the agenda, we would ask 22 that you wait until that time that that agenda item is 23 called to talk to us then. And we'd also ask -- it's not 24 absolutely required, but it helps us for planning purposes 25 if you would fill out a participation form that's located at 12-8-03 4 1 the back of the room, and you can bring it up here so that 2 we'll be sure not to miss you when that agenda item comes 3 around. So, if there's any member of the public that wishes 4 to address the Court on any matter that is not on the 5 agenda, why, we'd ask that you come forward at this time. I 6 see no one moving this direction. Hopefully, we'll get some 7 participation when we come to agenda items. We'll move on 8 to the next section of the agenda. Commissioner Baldwin, 9 what do you have for us this morning? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have anything. 11 I just want to move into the agenda and take care of the 12 business of the people. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing at the 15 moment, Judge. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couple of comments. 18 Final congratulations to both the Kerrville and Comfort 19 football teams. They went very far in the playoffs, though 20 unfortunately both of them did get beat, Comfort this past 21 Friday night. And the other comment is, I just want to -- I 22 went -- had the opportunity to go to two Christmas parties 23 yesterday afternoon, one in the Cypress Creek community, one 24 at Lane Valley community, and I just want to report that 25 Spanish is not the only second language spoken in this 12-8-03 5 1 county. There was -- (Laughter) -- a good part of both 2 meetings were spoken in German, and I was left out of it. 3 But it was interesting. A lot of fun to see a lot of the 4 old-timers, and very interesting. Only comment I had. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No schnapps? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All kinds of things down 7 there. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Commissioner Letz. 9 Commissioner Nicholson? 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's very dry out in 11 west Kerr County, and the -- the KARFA, Kerrville Area Rural 12 Firefighters Association, met last Wednesday, and they -- 13 all the chiefs asked that we reinstitute a burn ban, so I'm 14 going to ask for a meeting -- a special meeting with due 15 notice to do that. The one other thing, I want to 16 congratulate Rosa Lavender for the excellent article she 17 wrote about water in Kerr County, and about the headwaters. 18 It is very educational. Of course, Mr. Letz is an expert on 19 water, and I've been studying water for a couple years, and 20 I learned something from the article, and I think it ought 21 to be required reading for everybody in the county. Thank 22 you, Rosa. 23 MS. LAVENDER: Thanks. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If I could, on water, 25 Region J met last week and we did two things. I'm not 12-8-03 6 1 sure -- the City Manager's aware of one of them, but we 2 added two slots -- or actually three slots to Region J 3 Board. One will be an additional member from the City of 4 Kerrville, and one will be the General Manager of 5 Headwaters. And they are currently -- City of Kerrville 6 currently has one slot served by a City Councilman. We 7 discussed it, and we expanded the overall board basically to 8 get more input from people that are actually doing a lot of 9 the work. And I'm not sure who they're going to appoint, 10 though I have a very good idea who the City's going to 11 appoint to fill that slot; a good asset to our board. And 12 also, finally, after a lot of -- seems like an eternity, 13 water planning -- the first year or so is a lot of 14 administrative stuff; doesn't seem like you do much, dealing 15 with population and all this stuff, and we're finally 16 getting into the actual supply and demand issues of water, 17 and it's interesting. We're looking at some -- hopefully, 18 some studies are coming out of this that are going to really 19 be a big benefit to Kerr County and the whole region. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, gentlemen? 21 Thank you very much. Let's move right into the agenda. The 22 first item on the agenda is consider and discuss the status 23 of the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Advisory Board. 24 Commissioner Letz? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this item on the 12-8-03 7 1 agenda for a couple of reasons. One, there was, I guess, an 2 editorial that got my attention several weeks ago about this 3 overall topic and the -- and the, I guess, management of the 4 airport. But also, I think even more importantly is that it 5 just -- that editorial brought to light, in my mind, again, 6 that for over eight months a situation has existed that we 7 really haven't resolved, and I think it's very important. 8 And, as I understand it, in a nutshell, is that the -- in 9 1970, Kerr County basically created, through a number of 10 mechanisms, the advisory board, and that board was set up to 11 run the airport. And in about '87, I believe, both the City 12 and the County passed resolutions that it was to be an 13 advisory board only. 14 This year, I think both our legal staffs of 15 both the City and the County have advised that that's 16 something that we can't do. We can't change the will of the 17 voters in 1970 and make the board advisory. That was not 18 set up to be advisory by the voters, and I just think that 19 we need to move forward on that. The -- I think it's very 20 important that we honor what the voters of Kerr County 21 wanted in 1970 when they created this board, and that is 22 that the Airport Board should run the airport pretty much, 23 as I understand it, from all matters. And I think that we 24 just need to progress to shift from having -- from using 25 that board as an advisory board to a functioning board that 12-8-03 8 1 administers the airport, so I put it on the agenda just for 2 this reason. I really don't have a -- necessarily, a game 3 plan. I just wanted to get it on the table and discuss it a 4 little bit this morning. 5 I appreciate Granger MacDonald coming; he's 6 one of our -- the County's appointees. Mr. Miller was also 7 invited, but due to some situations that he was dealing 8 with -- and I'm not sure even -- he even got the message. 9 Last week I left a message at the phone company, and he's no 10 longer at that office, I should say, so I'm not sure if he's 11 -- you know, but he was invited as well. We do appreciate 12 Granger coming, and he's welcome to participate as well. 13 And one of the reasons I really wanted both is because 14 they're our appointees, to have them present or invite them, 15 but also it changes greatly, possibly, who we put on that 16 board. I mean, it's one thing to be a -- you know, 17 appointed to an advisory board; it's another whole thing to 18 appoint a joint -- an airport board, and potentially the 19 time commitment changes substantially. So, I just wanted to 20 get it on the table, and I'll open it up to the rest of the 21 Court and get their ideas. Maybe we can come up with a 22 direction by the end of this discussion today. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm glad you -- 24 Commissioner, I'm glad you put it on. I had intended to put 25 it on. I was sort of waiting for the County Judge, and the 12-8-03 9 1 Judge didn't put on it, so it's on and here we are; we're 2 going to talk about it. You indicate you didn't 3 particularly have a game plan. I do have a game plan, and 4 it's embodied in a motion which I'm going to spread around 5 the table here and offer at the right time. We have talked 6 about it. We have determined that we need to do something 7 about it, and I think that the time is right to do just 8 that, and so what I've attempted to do in this motion is to 9 embody all of the things, as best I could recall, that were 10 discussed between the County and the City with respect to a 11 change in governance, and that would be the structure of the 12 board, what the board is allowed to do or not to do, the 13 composition of the board, the terms of the board, the 14 tenure, and all those various things, and I've got it 15 embodied in a motion. And, to further this discussion and 16 get it wide-open, I'm going to offer the motion, and then 17 we'll see where this takes us. 18 So, I'm offering a motion that Court Order 19 17103, dated February 9, 1987, be rescinded and replaced 20 with Court Order -- whatever number of the clerk gives us -- 21 dated December 8, 2003, that sets forth the following: That 22 the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Board of Directors 23 shall hereinafter be an autonomous body with the authority 24 to make all decisions relating to the operations and the 25 maintenance of the Kerrville/Kerr County Airport and the 12-8-03 10 1 leasing of airport buildings and land parcels therein, with 2 such other limitations that may be here express -- expressed 3 herein. Two, that the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport 4 Board of Directors will be comprised of seven members 5 appointed for two-year terms, of which two members to be 6 appointed by the City of Kerrville, two members appointed by 7 Kerr County Commissioners Court, and one member of the City 8 -- Kerrville City Council and one member of Kerr County 9 Commissioners Court. The six voting members each year will 10 select the chairperson. All Joint Airport Board members 11 shall serve without compensation. Three, the Joint Airport 12 Board of Directors shall exercise complete and final 13 authority over airport revenues and expenses and shall cause 14 to be prepared an annual balanced budget that coincides with 15 the fiscal year of both the County and the City. Four, that 16 the Joint Airport Board shall have no authority to issue 17 instruments of debt without first obtaining the approval of 18 the City of Kerrville and Kerr County, nor shall the Board 19 be empowered to sell airport property or purchase additional 20 property without first obtaining the approval of the City of 21 Kerrville and Kerr County. And, finally, that the joint 22 Airport Board may enter into contracts for administrative 23 and other services as may be required to conduct airport 24 business. And, lastly, that the County Judge be further 25 authorized to communicate the above to the City of Kerrville 12-8-03 11 1 Mayor and Council and urge their concurrence to the adoption 2 of amendments to the existing city ordinances. That would 3 be in the form of a motion. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second the motion. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wow. Where's the 6 discussion? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: One of the things that I would 8 offer, Commissioner, when you're talking about the powers of 9 that body -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm? If I left 11 some out, Judge, put them in. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I -- I think there's 13 some limitations that are imposed, if I'm not mistaken, 14 by -- I believe it's Chapter 22 of the Transportation Code. 15 The one that comes to mind immediately with respect to 16 leasing prohibits a board that is organized under the 17 provisions of the current legislation -- actually organized 18 under its predecessor legislation -- that the leases could 19 not exceed 40 years. And there's a general prohibition 20 against sale of property. But the limitations are spelled 21 out; I believe it's Chapter 22 of the Transportation Code. 22 Mr. Motley may be able to tell us that. 23 MR. MOTLEY: I don't remember the section -- 24 the chapter off my head, but I think the Judge is right, 35- 25 or 40-year limit on the length of the leases. As long as 12-8-03 12 1 they don't go over that duration, then the County and the 2 City really have no say-so on how it operates. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, the actual limitations 4 on the -- on the authority of that body or board are spelled 5 out -- I believe it's in only one section there, if I'm not 6 mistaken. One section refers to it; the other one spells it 7 out. But that would be -- that would be my concern about 8 the authority or lack of it as embodied. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could we cure that 10 deficiency by making reference to Chapter 22 of the 11 Transportation Code? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. That's -- to me, 13 you know, I don't -- I mean, I agree with all of the body of 14 this, but really, the only thing that I see that we do is 15 the -- recently, the composition of the board itself, which 16 -- you know, and I really need the County Attorney to say 17 that we have authority to make a change there. Everything 18 else, I think we just refer to the -- to Chapter 22, and 19 that's the authority they have. I mean, last time we tried 20 to fiddle with that chapter, we got in trouble, which is 21 where we are right now. So I think -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whichever works. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think whatever that -- 24 whatever the voters voted on, which is now embodied in 25 Chapter -- I think it's 22, that should be the authority of 12-8-03 13 1 that board. And whatever those powers are, let them have 2 it. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And you're saying 4 that -- that the Transportation Code specifies that they 5 have decision-making authority? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I don't know if it 7 does or -- I mean, I haven't read it clearly, but as I 8 understand it, when the voters voted on it, they were voting 9 based on that legislation, and that legislation is what that 10 board should be set up as, and nothing more, nothing less. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: When -- when the board was 12 initially created, it was created from what was then known 13 as the Municipal Airport Act. That legislation has 14 transformed into now what is under Chapter 22 of the -- of 15 the Transportation Code. The -- that portion of the 16 Transportation Code generally says that it's in charge of 17 the overall operation of the airport, and then it merely 18 imposes certain limitations or things that they can't do, 19 but other than that, it has carte blanche authority, so to 20 speak. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It might be helpful, 22 Judge, then, if the County Attorney recited for us whatever 23 those prohibitions are so we could be certain we'd know. 24 MR. MOTLEY: Right now? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No better time I can 12-8-03 14 1 think of. 2 MR. MOTLEY: Well, a lot better time I can 3 think of. I mean, something that you need me to work on in 4 advance, I need you to give me some heads-up on it. I don't 5 -- I don't actually have the, you know, airport authority 6 memorized, so I didn't prepare anything on it. I think that 7 what we're talking about, just general -- the Airport Board 8 has broad authority, and the County and the City are not to 9 interfere with that authority except in very limited 10 situations. And as far as -- you know, I mean, if you'd 11 like me to go and research it now and give you an answer, 12 I'll try the best I can. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think the 14 Court would probably like to know the answer. I would, for 15 one, would like to know whether or not Chapter 22 as 16 referenced -- of the Transportation Code as referenced by 17 the County Judge would eliminate the need for us to state in 18 a motion such things as the issuance of debt instruments. 19 Can we do that? 20 MR. MOTLEY: I'm going to review Chapter 22 21 and see what you're referring to, because -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, I mean, 23 it -- to me -- well, maybe the right course is not -- I 24 mean, the County Attorney doesn't have -- doesn't have the 25 advance notice to know we were going to discuss it in this 12-8-03 15 1 detail. If we delay action on this order or motion until 2 our next meeting -- I hate to delay, 'cause it's been 3 delayed for, I know, months and months, but I don't want to 4 get in a situation where we do a court order that's not 5 correct either. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Neither do I. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that what we 8 could do today, clearly, is rescind Court Order 17103, and 9 we know we're doing that. And then, by doing that, I think 10 that board is then, without question, under the 11 Transportation Code. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have a 13 problem with that, and that's a good first step. I would 14 add to that, if we're going to amend the motion, that -- 15 which is possible to do -- that the County Attorney be 16 instructed to take a look at this motion as offered 17 originally and compare it to the Transportation Code, 18 Chapter 22, and to determine whether any or all of it's 19 necessary, or if other safeguards are necessary as required 20 by law. I'll amend my motion to include that. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll amend my second 22 to include that. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge -- go ahead, sorry. 24 Didn't mean to interrupt. I was just going to -- I believe 25 Mr. Patterson wants to -- had a comment he wanted to make. 12-8-03 16 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Mr. Ron Patterson, City 2 Manager, is here. He and I have had some discussions about 3 these issues over the past three months. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Yes, sir. For the record, my 5 name is Ron Patterson, City Manager, 832 Washington, 6 representing the City of Kerrville today. I just want to 7 clarify a couple of points real quick about the discussion 8 that's happening here today. First of all, the election 9 creating what's called an airport authority versus the 10 appointment of an airport board are two separate issues. I 11 want to make clear the action of the board -- or I should 12 say the action of the Commissioners Court or the City 13 Council with regard to the matter of the election. The 14 election was called and held, and there was an airport 15 authority created, which was not created under the Texas 16 Municipal Airport Act at the time; it's a separate 17 authority. Different body of law as well; give you a 18 heads-up. 19 MR. MOTLEY: I understand that. 20 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. 21 MR. MOTLEY: I understand that's correct. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. So that authority that 23 was created was never populated. In other words, there was 24 never anybody assigned to it, nobody ever put against it, 25 and the authorities given that by the law were never put 12-8-03 17 1 into effect by virtue of creating the body to sit and govern 2 that authority. Okay? The body that was created, the 3 airport board, by -- by and under the Texas Municipal 4 Airport Act, and subsequently in the Transportation Act, is 5 separate. There are two different bodies of law when 6 looking at those under the authority. There's one list that 7 says here's what they can and can't do. Under the Texas 8 Municipal Airport Act, or now the Transportation Code, 9 there's a different list of here's what they can and can't 10 do. So, by virtue of taking any action, whether by the 11 Commissioners Court or the Council, a determination -- first 12 of all, talking about doing what the will of the voters 13 want, well, if you're going to do what -- purely what the 14 voters voted on with regard to the airport authority, you 15 have to look at that body of law. If you want to look at 16 what it is that the Commissioners Court and the Council want 17 this board to do with regard to how it was created under the 18 Transportation Act, that's a separate body. So, my -- my 19 statement here is only to say, let's be sure. Which 20 direction are we talking about going? Because that list is 21 significantly different in some areas. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Patterson, I guess in 23 the -- and I've heard that argument before, but I -- when I 24 -- and I believe it was the memo from the City Attorney to 25 you where I got the other impression, and that impression 12-8-03 18 1 said that -- I think it was in February that the -- the 2 current advisory board was created, and I thought there was 3 a comment that said, "in anticipation of putting these 4 people on the airport authority." 5 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. But it was 6 never done. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it was never done to 8 that step. 9 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. Basically, 10 what happened was -- is that there was some discussion -- 11 and, again, we're talking '70's here. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know. It's hard to 13 know what happened. 14 MR. PATTERSON: So we're trying to piece a 15 lot of old information together. But, at that point in 16 time, there was a discussion about having the election and 17 creating the authority. All right? Well, it appears as 18 though, at that point in time, whoever was on the Council 19 and Commissioners Court and whatever else was going on 20 during that time, a decision was made, well, we don't want 21 to wait for the election because we got too much business to 22 do. Let's go ahead and appoint a board, and then at that 23 point in time, we can transition them over to the authority. 24 However, that never occurred. So, what happened was -- is 25 the -- the authority was created, but it just sat there. 12-8-03 19 1 The board that was created under the Texas Municipal Airport 2 Act continued on and continues on. Okay? And then, after 3 the election, some months after that, both the Council and 4 the Commissioners Court, as you've already said, said, well, 5 we'll just make them an advisory board. And that's when you 6 saw the resolutions, et cetera, that occurred. So, the 7 reality is -- is, yes, it was created, but -- and the idea 8 was, let's get the airport board set up so we can move 9 forward, but they never took the next step. And that next 10 step was to move them from the board, per se, to the 11 authority. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have you -- has your -- 13 and this question is -- I know your legal staff has looked 14 at this at the City. What is the situation when an 15 election's held and then you don't implement what's voted 16 on? I mean, the votes were canvassed. 17 MR. PATTERSON: They were. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How can you -- I mean, I 19 have a question as to the legality of not doing what the 20 voters tell you to do. 21 MR. PATTERSON: Mm-hmm. I fully understand. 22 I fully understand the question. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There was also 24 another deficiency in that original election. The 25 authority, as created by the voters, while it was never 12-8-03 20 1 populated, also there was never given to that authority the 2 right to impose a tax or a -- set a tax limitation so they 3 could operate as an authority with taxing rights. So 4 there's a lot of things wrong with that. The question is, 5 how do we cure it and move forward? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams is 7 exactly correct, that -- that the way the statute read was 8 you specifically had to have two items on the ballot, one 9 creating the authority, and two, creating the ability or the 10 authority within the authority to tax, so that they would 11 have the ability to move forward and create a revenue 12 stream. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Without saying it, 14 that probably -- that probably brings forth another 15 possibility or probability, and that would have been the 16 ultimate transfer of the property from the City of Kerrville 17 and Kerr County to the airport authority, none of which ever 18 happened. 19 MR. PATTERSON: That's correct. That's 20 correct. They -- the authority -- as you said, sir, the 21 election was held and it was never created, you know. So, 22 you have that sitting there, but it's never been used, ever. 23 So, you know, it's a matter of -- the reality is that if 24 we're going to move forward, I think we have to ask the 25 question, in what format? 12-8-03 21 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if the -- from what 2 you're saying, or if the -- the current -- forget -- assume 3 the election never happened, and say we're going under the 4 Municipal Airport Act, which still dictates how the -- how 5 that is run, how that advisory board is run, so it's 6 still -- we still need to change; it's still not an advisory 7 board. 8 MR. PATTERSON: The fact is that some sort of 9 action in the future needs to be done. Which way we go, you 10 know, again, that's a policy question. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think what you're 12 hearing here today is the desire of this Court to go to the 13 management board, whether -- whether it's done to properly 14 implement what the voters voted on 33 years ago, or whether 15 it's done to -- to comply with the current law. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think -- I 17 agree with that. I think the sense is -- if I'm reading 18 correctly, the sense is that we want to structure it so it's 19 an autonomous, decision-making board; give it the authority 20 to run the airport on a day-to-day basis and to contract for 21 services, administrative or otherwise, and to do those 22 things necessary so that it operates, with the goal -- which 23 has been stated repeatedly, the goal is to make it 24 self-sufficient and paying for itself, and not a burden on 25 the taxpayers through either taxing entity. That's the 12-8-03 22 1 goal. That's a laudable goal. 2 MR. PATTERSON: I understand. And, again, I 3 can't speak for the -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know. 5 MR. PATTERSON: -- for the Council. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We thought we were 7 going to give you something to take back for them today. 8 MR. PATTERSON: That's fine. Now, one thing, 9 too, that I'll just kind of touch on as well is -- is that, 10 you know, I do have a concern from an administrator 11 perspective, not a policy perspective, that -- you know, I 12 actually sat down and jotted down over the weekend -- you 13 know, took a look at where we've come from in the last eight 14 months to where we are today. And what I don't want to 15 happen is, I certainly wouldn't want this policy issue 16 that's on the table to detract from what I believe has been 17 a very successful year, when you look at the facility that's 18 co-owned by us. I mean, when you look at the fact that 19 we've got, you know, a $600,000 facility coming to us that 20 costs neither one of the taxpaying entities anything; the 21 fact that, you know, we've got a half million dollars worth 22 of sewer projects going in. You know, again, the facility 23 is on a fast track in the right direction. 24 Do we have problems that still need to be 25 fixed? Absolutely. Positively. As a matter of fact, I 12-8-03 23 1 can't name one thing that's running perfect anywhere, ever. 2 If we do, we'd all be out of a job anyway. But the reality 3 is -- is that when you look at the facility and where we're 4 going, I do believe that it's in a positive direction. I 5 think that if you look at that facility, where we've come 6 from with regard to adoption of a master plan, you know, 7 looking to the future, being able to get the land around it 8 properly obtained and zoned properly, those kinds of things, 9 it's all headed in the right direction. Is it perfect? No. 10 But we certainly are making strides that I had not seen 11 prior to that 12-month period. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, Ron, I think 13 it's this Court's desire to enhance that, not detract from 14 it. I don't think anything we're talking about here today 15 is intended to be a detractor. It is, in fact, intended to 16 facilitate that very thing from -- to go forward and do 17 better. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And there's nothing -- we 19 have no criticism of the direction that the airport has gone 20 or anything like that. That's not at all what I'm talking 21 about here. The criticism I have is that we have a -- a 22 board set up that is not functioning properly, and that's an 23 administrative side of the whole problem. I mean, and I 24 think we need to solve that, and it's been on the table now 25 for, you know, getting close to nine months, and I've seen 12-8-03 24 1 very little action by either body. And I think we just need 2 to get -- you know, get it set up properly, running properly 3 from an administrative standpoint. And it has nothing to do 4 with the direction -- I mean, I think I think I can speak 5 for the whole Court; we're very happy with all of the things 6 that have happened with the airport this year, but on the 7 administrative side, it just needs to be cleaned up. You 8 know, we've talked about it long enough, in my mind. We 9 just need to get it done. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I have a couple 11 questions. I have one question that needs to be answered, 12 and I'm going to draw a couple of word pictures or 13 scenarios, with the same question to both -- both word 14 pictures. And that is -- and what I'm going to do -- and I 15 apologize, Bill, for -- I want to take us back. The City 16 Manager used the word "reality," and I just kind of wanted 17 to get back to that, if I could, of where we are today and 18 how the thing functions today and who makes those decisions 19 out there today. I -- I don't know. If someone asked me 20 who makes all these decisions, I can not answer that 21 question. One picture I wanted to -- we're in the -- we're 22 in the process of building a hangar out there, I understand, 23 out on the edge of the apron, is my understanding. 24 It seems to me that the -- it's just my 25 opinion -- the proper way you would do that would be you 12-8-03 25 1 would take your hangar and build it up behind, let's say, 2 Kennedy's business up there closer to the road that comes 3 into the airport back there, and build your little driveways 4 for airplanes, whatever you call those things up there, and 5 run your water and sewer to that building, and then you open 6 up -- open up a whole new area of the airport for growth, 7 for businesses, other hangars, private hangars, et cetera 8 and so forth. Seems to me that building it out there on the 9 apron, you're -- we've closed ourselves in. We have one 10 building there, and there's no room for growth. But if you 11 move that thing up behind Mr. Kennedy's business, then it 12 opens up the rest of the airport land for growth. That's 13 one. And my question on that is, who makes those kinds of 14 decisions? 15 Now, I've got the same question for the next 16 scenario. I drove out there yesterday had visited with some 17 folks over the weekend and just drove through and drove by, 18 and I don't know this to be a fact, but I understand that 19 there are some airplanes that tie down out in front of Mr. 20 Kennedy's business out there on the -- on the parking lot or 21 whatever you call an airport parking lot, and they're tied 22 down and they are -- and that area is not part of 23 Mr. Kennedy's lease. That's just the way I understand it. 24 And he charges 75 bucks a month per airplane to tie down on 25 City/County property. Now, in my mind, I would think 12-8-03 26 1 that -- I mean, there's nothing wrong with doing that, but 2 there's got to be some income for the City and County on the 3 thing. It's not part of his property; it's our property. 4 And we're not set up for collections, and I can't imagine 5 how the City would do it, but seems like we could work out 6 some kind of deal where Mr. Kennedy continues collecting the 7 rental fee and keep part of it and give the rest of it to 8 the City and County. Now, that's the other scenario I 9 wanted to draw, and the same question as the first. Who is 10 making those kinds of decisions? Who made that decision to 11 do that? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we can answer 13 them. Do you want to start? 14 MR. MACDONALD: I'd like to address those, if 15 I could, Mr. Baldwin. I'm Granger MacDonald, for the 16 record. You are making those decisions. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 18 MR. MACDONALD: Currently, as the -- to the 19 first one, the hangar that's being built was on a land lease 20 done by Mr. Kennedy, and was approved by the County 21 Commissioners Court and the City Council. There was lots of 22 discussion about that at the Airport Advisory Board. 23 Because we are an advisory board, we felt somewhat limited 24 as to what we could do and what we can say. We had a lot of 25 participation about it, made a lot of suggestions. Your 12-8-03 27 1 point is well-taken, and is part of the master plan that the 2 Advisory Board made the suggestion -- of course, it's only a 3 recommendation at this point -- that future development, 4 future hangars be built up on what we call the second tier, 5 up closer to the access road. That's one of the reasons for 6 the fencing that's going into -- being designed to encompass 7 that area. The current construction that you're seeing now 8 is not part of that hangar; that's just additional tarmac 9 and tie-down facilities. As -- and, like I said, the hangar 10 was the lease approved by this body and the City Council. 11 The second item you bring up about tie-down 12 fees, I personally brought that up to the Advisory Board, 13 and that's something that we're looking at. And I would 14 like -- and I think if we were a sovereign body, we would 15 have already implemented an arrangement by which the 16 operator of the F.B.O. didn't get to use all of the 17 County/City property in front of him and collect money for 18 it. That doesn't seem right to me. And -- and if we go to 19 a sovereign board, obviously, I think that the board will 20 have to start funding itself completely, and we'll be 21 looking for revenue in every place we can find it. And -- 22 and one of those places quickly will -- would be the 23 tie-down area. They do overnight rentals as well as weekly, 24 monthly, and annual rentals on the tie-down area. And there 25 needs to be a compromise written where Mr. Kennedy takes in 12-8-03 28 1 the money, takes a fee for collecting it, for managing it, 2 overseeing it, but all the costs of repairs of that area, 3 the cables, the paving, everything, is -- is borne by the 4 taxpayers of Kerr County and the City of Kerrville. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So -- so you -- your 6 board has been acting as an advisory board? 7 MR. MACDONALD: Correct. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You see those things 9 the way we just discussed it, and so you -- as an advisory 10 board, you advise both governments -- or actually you advise 11 this government, but the board itself advises both 12 government entities of what you think should happen out 13 there. So, you're really and truly functioning as an 14 advisory board only, aren't you? 15 MR. MACDONALD: Correct. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 17 MR. MACDONALD: And I will assure you that 18 the idea of charging something for that ramp fee -- space, a 19 fee to generate income for the operation of the airport is a 20 very popular idea, and I would say that it would probably 21 pass within the first 90 days of the Airport Board not being 22 a sovereign -- of being a sovereign body. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I know when -- 24 when this discussion first started this year -- and I'm 25 going to go to bat for the County Judge. He brought this 12-8-03 29 1 up, and it -- he maybe stepped on some toes, hurt some 2 feelings, but basically all he's been saying is that we need 3 to find ways for that airport to pay for itself. 4 MR. MACDONALD: Absolutely. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, it's a 6 real -- and that's what the Judge was saying when he got a 7 little crossways with some folks. But that basically is 8 what he's saying, and I agree with that a hundred percent. 9 I appreciate you and your representation to this board. 10 MR. MACDONALD: And let me tell you, there's 11 lots of income that could be generated out there that's not 12 being done. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I bet so. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think this -- I mean, 15 this exactly illustrates why we need to solve this problem, 16 because we currently have -- it's three heads and three 17 people out there, or three entities trying to run it, and it 18 should be one. 19 MR. MACDONALD: And the Airport Manager is 20 literally serving two bosses. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true. 22 MR. MACDONALD: Both the County and the City, 23 and everybody knows that doesn't work. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only one footnote I 25 would add, Buster, to what Granger said, and that was that, 12-8-03 30 1 with respect to the Kennedy hangar, that was all part of the 2 extension of his lease and the new lease for a parcel of 3 land and the blue hangar, which we discussed here in court 4 six months ago I guess, and approved. 5 MR. MACDONALD: And there were performance 6 guidelines attached to that. He's got to do a certain 7 amount of things, and the lease income -- income escalates 8 over a period of years. There's also the installation of a 9 self-service tank that has to be done in a period of time, 10 which is going to be a major income boost to the -- to the 11 revenue of the airport. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The other thing that I would 13 add, Commissioner, is that with regard to the placement of 14 the various types of activities generated, be they hangars 15 or service-related aviation business or any other type of 16 activity, we approved a master plan that was forwarded to 17 the F.A.A., and that pretty well sets out on a tiered basis 18 how that development should occur. And so that -- that'll 19 be the guidance on the policy for -- for those developments 20 to occur out there. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's real nice. I 22 just wanted -- there's Mr. Kennedy back there. I just 23 wanted you to understand that I'm certainly not throwing 24 rocks at him or any other business out there. I just wanted 25 to get everything on the table so I can understand it. You 12-8-03 31 1 know, I represent a fourth of the people of Kerr County, and 2 I vote on these issues, and it's their money and I want to 3 understand what I'm doing and talking about. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: While we're getting everything 5 on the table, I think Mr. Kennedy had a desire -- if you'd 6 come forward, please, sir, and give us your two bit's worth, 7 as it were? 8 MR. KENNEDY: I just wanted to add a little 9 bit, just a small comment in regards to the tie-down issue. 10 I had the discussion and have had the discussion with our 11 Airport Manager and a couple members of the board. I'd like 12 to, just for the record, give you a little bit more detail 13 as to how that situation came about and what the situation 14 is really with our leases. With respect to the tie-downs, 15 in my original leases, the tie-down issue is addressed in -- 16 under my mandatory services. When my -- in the original 17 leases that I assumed when we purchased the business, those 18 -- the tie-down area was addressed under mandatory services, 19 and the idea was, it's mandatory for me to maintain those 20 tie-down chains and all those things. We maintain keeping 21 the garbage off the tie-downs and everything, and there's 21 22 tie-downs listed out there. And, under mandatory services, 23 I am required to maintain those tie-downs; the chains, the 24 hooks, all the stuff out there, and keeping the area clean. 25 I make sure those tie-downs are -- every aircraft is tied 12-8-03 32 1 down properly every single night. 2 I've got staff that collects for any tie-down 3 fees. There's a total of about $3,000 a year that's 4 collected off of tie-down fees. I don't think you can hire 5 somebody in the county, the city, anywhere, to manage this 6 thing for $3,000 a year and take care of all those issues. 7 That was the reason, I suspect, in the original negotiations 8 of these leases that it was put in under mandatory services, 9 that we have to do that. We were given the right to collect 10 those tie-down fees. We never collected tie-down fees until 11 the last year, so about less than two years ago, we 12 implemented the tie-down fees. I did convey to the Airport 13 Manager I'm willing to do -- if the airport wants to 14 maintain it, the tie-down, and make sure that things are 15 tied down every single night, I'm happy to give all the 16 revenue to it, because it's just not -- it's simply not a 17 large revenue source. It really isn't. It's about $3,000 a 18 year. 19 We don't charge $75 a month; we charge $50 a 20 month for mandatory -- for monthly tie-downs. We don't 21 charge nightly tie downs. We -- we basically -- the policy 22 that we put in place is if you buy fuel, we don't charge you 23 a tie-down fee, simply because it's not worth the 24 collection, it's such a small source of revenue. And that's 25 the reason we charge for those tie-down areas. It was put 12-8-03 33 1 in my leases as a mandatory service, not something that we 2 went and lobbied for, and I just wanted to make sure that 3 was clear to everybody. And we're -- I told the manager 4 we're happy to set something up to where we -- we share that 5 revenue, though it's very small, to be put back into the 6 airport. We've always been a proponent of paying our fair 7 share. I think we pay considerably more than most 8 businesses on the airport, and our fair share, and we're not 9 opposed to doing that. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just take a deep 12 breath. You're wearing me out, man. 13 MR. KENNEDY: We've been under a little bit 14 of pressure, yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Mr. 16 Kennedy. I -- I think all of this discussion points up the 17 need to finalize the existing legalities and authority that 18 exists out there. And that's exactly the direction I see us 19 moving, and the direction that the City Manager and I have 20 talked about in meetings in the past few months, and I 21 appreciate him being here today. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me restate -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion on the table. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me restate the 25 motion just for the record, Judge. 12-8-03 34 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That Court Order 3 Number 17103 dated February 9, 1987, be rescinded, and it 4 will be replaced with a court order to be determined in an 5 action to be taken by the Commissioners at the December 22nd 6 meeting. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 9 further discussion on the motion? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And that 1987 court 11 order was to do exactly what? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Advisory board. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just says it's 14 strictly an advisory board? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Designates them as an advisory 16 board. Any further discussion or question? All in favor of 17 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, before you get 22 past that, let me give this to the County Attorney and ask 23 him to compare what was included in this motion against 24 Section 22 -- Chapter 22 of the Texas Transportation Code 25 and see where we are. And I'd like to have it ready to go 12-8-03 35 1 back on the agenda on the 22nd. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we're moving forward, 3 so I'm happy. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: We are moving forward. Thank 5 you, gentlemen. The next item on the agenda is to set a 6 public hearing for alternate plat process, Lot 83 and 84, 7 Northwest Hills, Precinct 1. Good morning, sir. 8 MR. JOHNSTON: Morning. This consists of 9 making a minor adjustment to kind of a lot line between two 10 lots, 83 and 84, owned by the same owner. I think there's a 11 10-foot offset due to -- there's a residence built on one 12 lot, and it's too close to the line for the -- according to 13 the rules for Northwest Hills, and so they -- they're going 14 to do a minor replat. I'd like the Court to consider that 15 this might be the same situation as combining lots as far as 16 having to notify everybody for such a minor adjustment. You 17 know, be a big expense for just a minor adjustment, but that 18 would be the Court's decision. And I suggest the date may 19 be January 12th, the first meeting in January, for the 20 public hearing. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Franklin? 22 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does Mr. Bledsoe own 24 both of those lots? 25 MR. JOHNSTON: It's my understanding. 12-8-03 36 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 83 and 84? 2 MR. JOHNSTON: Is that right, Lee? 3 MR. VOELKEL: Sorry, I missed -- 4 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Bledsoe owns 83 and 84? 5 MR. VOELKEL: Yes, sir, and he's here if you 6 have a question of him. 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's see. He had 9 another question in there, Jon, that's really kind of yours. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The minor replat 11 question. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have a problem 13 with doing -- doing this at all. 14 MR. JOHNSTON: That sentence doesn't include 15 adjustment to lot lines, but in the past we've -- we've had 16 those two combined as a single item as far as -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean -- 18 MR. JOHNSTON: -- considering them that way. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The intent would be that 20 it would be a minor revision. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm curious. It 22 really doesn't make any difference, I suppose. Couldn't 23 this have been solved by him simply creating an easement 24 from one lot to the other? House is too close to one lot 25 line. Couldn't he just have simply added an easement to 12-8-03 37 1 cure that? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wouldn't that have 3 been a variance, as opposed -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wouldn't come before us. 5 But I think that was in the -- I thought I saw that 6 somewhere in the letter; he didn't want to do that. 7 MR. JOHNSTON: I think he wants to sell the 8 lot, or I think just wants the line moved over. Is that 9 right? 10 MR. VOELKEL: We also have an issue here of 11 some existing easements and making sure that we don't have 12 an encroachment to existing easements, so technically, 13 moving -- removing the lot line and removing those 14 easements, encroachments. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: You're not moving that entire 16 middle lot line; you're just going to come down and jog it? 17 MR. VOELKEL: That's correct, yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 10 feet. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: There's a sketch, I think, in 20 your packet. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10 feet. 22 MR. VOELKEL: Can I make another comment 23 about the notification issue? Just to reassure you, 24 Mr. Bledsoe's here, the owner, and he has -- does have 25 permission from the property owners or homeowners' 12-8-03 38 1 association that this is okay with them, so that kind of 2 might reassure you that, as far as what's being done is okay 3 by the actual subdivision people themselves, even though 4 they might not all be notified by return receipt letter. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How do we know that? 6 MR. VOELKEL: I'm sorry, sir? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I said, how do we 8 know? Just because you're the highest vote-getter in the 9 county, is -- 10 MR. VOELKEL: Do they have a letter or 11 something they delivered to you about that? This 12 is Mr. Bledsoe, the owner of both of the lots. 13 MR. BLEDSOE: Yes. Mr. Milton Nutall, the 14 man who's head of the board out there -- they actually had a 15 special meeting and requested that I do come in and replat 16 that area to take care of this property encroachment on the 17 existing easements. So, the architectural control committee 18 board out there has actually suggested that we do this, and 19 this is why we're pursuing this avenue. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other notice difficulties 21 that you see with this? 22 MR. JOHNSTON: (Shook his head negatively.) 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not in the ETJ, is it? 24 MR. VOELKEL: I was going to say, I'm so glad 25 it's not in the ETJ. Thank you for reminding me. 12-8-03 39 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, you know, what 2 we're doing is setting a public hearing, and that would 3 certainly give the opportunity for that community out there 4 to come in and speak if they so desire. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: It will be in the newspaper, 6 but it also is required, if it's -- if it's not certain 7 things listed in the rules, that it's also sent out 8 certified mail. But one of the exceptions being combining 9 lots. This is just a lot line adjustment. But -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, their 11 Commissioner will notify them of this as well. 12 MR. JOHNSTON: That's kind of your call, 13 whichever way you want to go on that. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know what you 15 do about the notification. That doesn't ring my bell one 16 way or the other. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- clearly, 18 this -- I mean, the intent of the rules and the state law, 19 as I would understand it, is not -- would not require the 20 notification here. I mean, notification purpose is so 21 people aren't changing -- you know, to me, a substantive 22 change to lots within a subdivision that could affect their 23 interests. And an adjustment of this nature is not a 24 substantive change to a lot line. 25 MR. JOHNSTON: Not like you're dividing a 12-8-03 40 1 lot. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, it's not dividing, 3 and so I don't know why you'd have to do the full 4 notification. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Me either. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's the same as 7 combining. 8 MR. JOHNSTON: That was my thinking. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, what are you 10 saying? Could it be approved today, just go on our merry 11 way? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you have to have 13 a hearing on it. You have to have a public hearing, but you 14 don't have to notify all the property owners individually. 15 MR. JOHNSTON: By registered mail. Still 16 needs to be in the paper. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Be in the paper. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move that we 19 set a public hearing for alternate plat process of Lots 83 20 and 84, Northwest Hills in Precinct Number 1, for 21 January 12th, '04, at 10 a.m. That's my motion. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 24 set a public hearing specified in the motion. Any further 25 question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 12-8-03 41 1 by raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 6 is to consider and discuss approving the FEMA Project 7 Completion and Certification Report, Disaster Number 1425, 8 and authorize the County Judge to sign the same. This is 9 part of our overall FEMA process as a result of the '02 10 floods. 11 MR. ODOM: That's correct. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And I think the only remaining 13 issue that we have outstanding on this one has to do with 14 that -- that little bridge between the two Flat Rock Lake 15 Park portions; is that not correct? 16 MR. ODOM: That's correct sir. The park that 17 they use for a jogging trail across the Third Creek. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only comment I would 19 have about that, Judge, would be, is there a way for us 20 to -- well, I guess we can -- we can request additional time 21 required -- that may be required to accomplish some sort of 22 replacement of that bridge across Third Creek, Flat Rock 23 Lake, one of the two. I would hate for to us lose the 24 $6,900, but, by the same token, I don't want to put in 25 jeopardy the whole thing. So -- 12-8-03 42 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I think we 2 ought to -- I mean, I think -- Leonard Odom asked that -- 3 thought that you'd be a good person to write this, 4 Commissioner Williams. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't see that in 6 the work-up here. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's in ours; it's not 8 in yours. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't get a copy 10 of that. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think that, you 12 know, request a one-year extension on that one item, and 13 finalize everything else. But that's -- so I think we ought 14 to -- that makes sense to me; I agree with you. We 15 shouldn't -- don't want to jeopardize the balance for the 16 $6,900, but it would be nice to keep the $6,900 if we can. 17 If they say no, we just don't have that. It's not enough 18 for us to do a permanent fix anyway. 19 MR. ODOM: That's right. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we don't have 21 budgeted funds right now to do a permanent fix. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question I would 24 have, Hermann Sons -- none of the Hermann Sons Road -- I 25 didn't see any Hermann Sons Road listed on there. Is it in 12-8-03 43 1 a different category? I know we did some -- a lot of work 2 was done. Maybe I just missed it. But I want to -- 3 MR. ODOM: You probably missed it. I don't 4 know how it's -- Hermann Sons, we had no FEMA money for the 5 Hermann Sons crossing. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 7 MR. ODOM: No funds there. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But didn't we expend 9 funds on some of those back crossings? 10 MR. ODOM: Yes, at the -- back by Lender 11 Branch back there. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't -- I couldn't -- 13 didn't see it when I went through the item-by-item list. 14 MR. ODOM: There's a timeline. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 16 MR. ODOM: And that -- I'm not quite sure how 17 that hit at this point. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Maybe it was on a 19 different timeline. 20 MR. ODOM: It was on a different timeline. 21 What we got -- the notice was there was 39,000. We're at 22 84,000. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 24 MR. ODOM: So, some of that did not hit at 25 that timeline that we -- that we needed to. Some of that 12-8-03 44 1 work was already done. Pipes, things likes that, maybe 2 concrete was put in there, but maybe not the whole -- whole 3 project. It was a certain point in there that we had to cut 4 off. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. What's the -- so 6 I'll make a motion that we approve the FEMA project 7 completion and certification report for Disaster Number 8 1425, as submitted, and authorize the County Judge to sign 9 same, and to request -- and for Commissioner Williams to 10 write an extension of time request for the one item at Flat 11 Rock Lake. 12 MR. ODOM: That's it. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 15 further questions or discussion? All in favor of the 16 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I could have 22 authorized you to write the letter. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: You could have. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, if you hadn't 25 acted so quickly, I would have changed that. 12-8-03 45 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item is consider and 2 discuss presentation of the interlocal contract for mental 3 health services for approval, authorize County Judge to sign 4 the same as they are returned to the County. This has to do 5 with our outstanding interlocal agreement with the various 6 counties that we serve in our cachement area, in other 7 counties with the Mental Health and Mental Retardation 8 services for the mental health hearings that we conduct on 9 their behalf. It's been in existence for a number of years. 10 We made a few modifications and changes and updates to it, 11 and the County Attorney and I have been commiserating on 12 this for, oh, a period of a couple months or more, probably. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Now, have the fee 14 schedules changed, Judge? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we did on the -- on the 16 attorney's fees, we changed that to bring it in line with -- 17 with what the County Court at Law and District Courts 18 upstairs are on appointed cases. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would it be fair to 20 ask if the attorney fees went down or went up? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: They went up. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, they went up, as they 24 did in the County Court at Law and the District Court some 25 time ago, when the Fair Defense Act came down the pike, 12-8-03 46 1 what, two, three years ago. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All other fee 3 structure remains the same? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe they are, are they 5 not? 6 MR. MOTLEY: Well, there was an added fee in 7 the probable cause hearings. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Master's fee. 9 MR. MOTLEY: Right. And then there was just 10 an issue not related to fees, but there was an issue about 11 guardianships. Those represent the only three changes I'm 12 aware of. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That was to pass along the 14 costs that Kerr County would otherwise incur to the counties 15 utilizing the services. 16 MR. MOTLEY: I believe that's correct. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. That was the intention 18 of both of those, certainly. 19 MR. MOTLEY: All other fees remain the same. 20 I checked all of them through the third called session, and 21 everything was the same. The Sheriff had thought about 22 raising his fees, but decided not to. So, we were kind of 23 holding off to see if that was going to happen until after, 24 but it was approved and such, but it's ready to go. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about the main 12-8-03 47 1 body of the agreement? Is there any major changes from this 2 year to last year? 3 MR. MOTLEY: No. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably the major significant 5 change was that, rather than going through this drill every 6 year, we provided that it was automatically renewable unless 7 it was canceled, rather than a year and then you come back 8 and do a new agreement the next year and so forth. And with 9 regard to -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Forever? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Forever? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Until canceled by either side. 14 By either side. And that the fees to be charged would be in 15 accordance with the then current schedule that Kerr County 16 charged to everybody else. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So you -- next year, 18 if -- if other people's fees have changed, you can 19 automatically just go in and change the fees without 20 approval of this Court? 21 MR. MOTLEY: What would -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just a question. I'm 23 asking a question. 24 MR. MOTLEY: I don't know that there would be 25 approval by the Court, because the fees would be authorized 12-8-03 48 1 to be changed by the State Legislature, or there are certain 2 fees that would be approved -- have to be approved by the 3 Court, changes in fees. But I think what the Judge is 4 saying is, if our fee schedule changes, that we will send 5 notice of the new fee schedule to the various agencies in -- 6 I guess it would be 25 other counties, provide notice of 7 those new fees to the other counties, and at that point in 8 time, if they choose not to proceed with the agreement, they 9 can cancel at that time. But, rather than to renew the 10 contract each year, we just make the notice of the new fees 11 an event which they could choose to cancel. As a result of, 12 I should say. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The comment -- I don't 14 have real strong feelings on this, but a little history; 15 David Motley is aware of it. Several years back, I think 16 probably four or five years ago, this whole area was in a 17 mess. These -- these contracts that we weren't getting 18 money -- I mean, it was not as -- going as smoothly as I 19 think it's going right now, and I'd hate to get in a 20 situation just because we -- I mean, I hope this contract 21 gets reviewed on some sort of a regular basis by the County 22 Attorney or the County Judge, Court, somebody, because I'd 23 hate for it to get -- you know, Legislature make some 24 changes all of a sudden, and us end up with a contract 25 because it's automatically renewed; we just don't pay 12-8-03 49 1 attention to it as much. You know, so I would almost rather 2 have, like, some -- maybe a five-year period or some kind of 3 a period, make sure it does get reviewed on some sort of a 4 regular basis. And maybe, you know, y'all can assure me 5 that it will happen anyway, but I just remember that -- I 6 think this is the contract that we had a lot of problem 7 with. 8 MR. MOTLEY: This is the one that corrected a 9 lot of the problems. This version has corrected a lot of 10 the problems. Actually, the collection of fees I don't 11 think was an issue related to the wording of the previous 12 contract as much as it was an attitude on the part of 13 certain counties, or inability to pay on the part of certain 14 counties. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Of course, we're not 16 naming any counties, but if we were, we would say Bexar. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bexar. 18 MR. MOTLEY: Well, in any event, there was an 19 A.G. opinion sought requiring them to pay certain fees they 20 maintained they didn't have to pay. And I don't -- I've 21 not -- I've not checked the status of the collections, but I 22 believe they're proceeding well. This contract also 23 initially, when it was written, raised certain fees. There 24 were fees that you might say were being left on the table, 25 and it raised certain fees, and implemented fees that were 12-8-03 50 1 not being collected that were allowed by law. So -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- it just 3 concerns me to have a contract that's all of a sudden in 4 automatic renewal phase, because we have so many contracts, 5 and I just think we need to, at some regular period, review 6 all our contracts, because every time we decide to review 7 one, we realize we need to make some changes. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Particularly if we're 9 held accountable in some way in here. Is -- does the law 10 say that these contracts come before the Commissioners 11 Court, or are y'all just being nice, letting us know what 12 you're doing? 13 MR. MOTLEY: I mean, actually, there is an 14 agreement between Kerr County, the County Judge, the County 15 Attorney, and these other 25 counties. What it is, is an 16 agreement for our Judge and for myself to provide services 17 to these other 25 counties so they don't have to ship their 18 County Judge and their County Attorney down here to have 19 hearings. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure, I understand. 21 MR. MOTLEY: Or else to bring the mental 22 patient back to their county and have hearings there, then 23 transport back and forth. There's at least two hearings 24 associated with everybody that is eventually committed, and 25 so they would have to carry them back and forth, you know, 12-8-03 51 1 four times -- or I should say back and forth twice, but four 2 trips back and forth between these counties, and some of 3 them are pretty distant. So, it is a convenience to them. 4 The County -- you know, we contract with the county. I 5 mean, the County can't really order the Judge or myself to 6 do these hearings, but we are doing them as an interlocal 7 agreement to benefit these other counties, and it saves them 8 time and money. So, I -- you know, I don't really know if 9 it's required to come before the Commissioners Court, but I 10 think, you know, it's good practice to bring it before the 11 Court. There's nothing wrong, I think, with -- there's no 12 county revenue spent by this county by the contract, so it's 13 not an expenditure issue which normally would come before 14 the Commissioners Court. And the automatic renewing 15 provision in it is just something that -- it just probably 16 will save some time; allow a contract to go from 17 year-to-year, and then the only part of it that really 18 changes is the fee schedule. Typically, that's the only 19 part that changes. Then you can just, you know, review the 20 fee schedule or whatever, but I don't oppose it having to 21 come before the Court at any particular time. I -- you -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just trying to 23 find out, David, if something -- something went wrong 24 somewhere -- I don't know what could go wrong, but if 25 something went wrong in there, and am I as a Commissioner 12-8-03 52 1 going to be held liable for anything? 2 MR. MOTLEY: I don't see -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If so, I want to look 4 at it every year. 5 MR. MOTLEY: Yeah, and I hear you. I'd -- I 6 don't see how this contract obligates the Commissioner to do 7 anything, or Kerr County to do anything. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Looks like a courtesy 9 deal to me. 10 MR. MOTLEY: I don't believe it obligates the 11 Court to do anything. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't want to do -- we 13 have too much time; you know, we have a short agenda and so 14 we're going to discuss it. Say there's something -- say you 15 make a mistake or the Judge makes a mistake. I know it 16 wouldn't ever happen, but a mistake was made in the -- you 17 know, in the commitment of someone, and then there's a -- a 18 lawsuit filed about that. I mean, there is -- that would be 19 suing the County. I'm sure Kerr County would be sued and 20 the other county that it came from. 21 MR. MOTLEY: Probably right. You're probably 22 right. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So that would affect the 24 Court. 25 MR. MOTLEY: Any deep pocket that can be sued 12-8-03 53 1 will be sued. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And any time we get sued, 3 we're the ones that -- or, you know, we usually get sued 4 too, but that gets thrown out. But, you know -- 5 MR. MOTLEY: Good thing is that the Judge has 6 a very, very high standard of immunity in that situation; he 7 has judicial immunity. And I don't have quite as high 8 standards of immunity. I have some -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're not real 10 concerned about the Judge here. We're a little bit 11 concerned about us. 12 MR. MOTLEY: Well, the County -- the County 13 would be liable in that situation. Once it all shakes out, 14 we should only be liable through the acts of the County 15 officials. There's no acts by the Court in that particular 16 scenario Jonathan came up with, so it would be only through 17 the acts of the County official, and not -- and I don't see 18 how the Court itself would be responsible, as far as being 19 sued individually, but the County could possibly be looked 20 to for legal expenses and such as that if there were a 21 lawsuit. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The reality is, we're 23 not performing any services. We're authorizing you and the 24 County Judge to do certain things. 25 MR. MOTLEY: That's basically correct. And 12-8-03 54 1 for our clerk to collect -- I didn't mean to leave the clerk 2 out, but for County Clerk to collect and bill those counties 3 for those fees. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And another nexus, of 5 course, is that those funds go into the General Fund, 6 correct? 7 MR. MOTLEY: That's correct. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, clearly, we need 10 to do it. My only concern would be the -- you know, I hope 11 we don't just do it and forget about it for 10 years, and 12 then all of a sudden come back and -- oh, yeah, we haven't 13 been doing something correctly. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The truth is, this agreement 15 is not that old, and David and I thought it would be a good 16 idea to revisit it and take a look at it and tweak it, 17 update it a little bit. That's why we're here today. We 18 could have left the one in -- in existence that we had on 19 the table previously, but we thought it was a good idea to 20 update it, and I think if the Legislature authorizes 21 additional things in the future in the way of increases in 22 these fees or whatnot, we're going to be attuned to that to 23 put out new fee schedules and so forth. But, as 24 Commissioner Baldwin stated, I wasn't real concerned about 25 the liability to the Commissioners under this agreement, 12-8-03 55 1 'cause they weren't performing anything under it. But I -- 2 Mr. Motley and I have looked it over very, very carefully, 3 and we've had considerable discussions about this over the 4 last few months. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, in the actual 6 agreement here, you -- under 1.2, you have the automatic 7 renewal verbiage in there. Why would you do that? Why not 8 just -- we just agree that you can do it? I move that we 9 approve the interlocal contract for mental health services, 10 and -- and authorize County Judge to sign it. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 13 approval of the motion -- or the agenda item. Any further 14 question or discussion? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got a couple 16 questions. Confirm, if you will, please -- I think I heard 17 that these changes won't have any impact on county 18 expenditures. And second question is, do any of these 19 changes inure any financial benefit to any organizations or 20 individuals? Is somebody -- some organization, some 21 individual going to be paid more under this contract than 22 they have been? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: The only instance, 24 Commissioner, is the attorney's fees issue. It was raised 25 from $50 an hour to $70 an hour for the attorneys that are 12-8-03 56 1 appointed as ad litems to handle these cases. It's a 2 footnote at the very end of the fee schedule; you'll see it 3 there. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: To my knowledge, that is the 6 only change, is the increase in that rate to bring it in 7 line with what the District and County Court at Law are 8 paying on that. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And who's paying for 10 that? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, whoever -- it's charged 12 as costs, and if the patient is from Kerr County, instead of 13 paying $50 an hour, they'll be paying $70. The -- whatever 14 county is -- has the patient. There are a total of 26 15 counties in the cachement area, plus other counties that may 16 -- we may get overflow patients from, but it depends on 17 where the patient comes from. That's who is sent the bill 18 of costs. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And definitely, the 20 majority of the patients out there are from one of these 21 other 26 counties, not home people. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: The last -- the last time we 23 looked at the numbers, 80 percent came from counties other 24 than Kerr County. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think -- actually, I 12-8-03 57 1 think the attorney fees -- my god, I can't believe I'm 2 saying this -- the attorney fees are fair. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, they -- they were too 4 low; they needed to be adjusted upward. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a whipping 6 coming for saying that, don't I? 7 MR. MOTLEY: You're not going to find me 8 attorneys in this county that are practicing the law and 9 charging $70 an hour. That's low. That's a public benefit 10 that the attorneys are doing on behalf of mental patients. 11 It is a public service. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I understand. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You'll find more plumbers 14 charging that than you will lawyers, I'll guarantee you. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No comment. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's why so many 17 lawyers have got their plumbing license. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or need to. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm going to take my exam 20 month after next. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That answered my 22 question, thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 24 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 25 your right hand. 12-8-03 58 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. The next 5 item on the agenda is to consider, discuss, and take any 6 appropriate action on a request by Dean Ward, President of 7 Local 2281, American Federation of Government Employees, to 8 use the courthouse grounds on December 13th for a rally in 9 support of Hill Country Veterans to regain acute care beds 10 at the Kerrville V.A. facility. Commissioner Williams? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Ward? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Morning, Mr. Ward. 14 Thank you for waiting. I told him to be here about 9:30, 15 and, Judge, it's 10:10 and we're just -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: He was here at 9:30. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The issue of 18 retention of those beds -- acute care beds at -- at the 19 Kerrville V.A. facility is one that we deal with more 20 directly in the next one, but Mr. Ward called and wanted to 21 know if they could schedule a rally, and I want you to tell 22 the Court what kind of rally, and we'll go from there, okay? 23 MR. WARD: Yes, sir. My name is Dean Ward. 24 I'm President of the American Federation of Government 25 Employees, Local 2281, the Kerrville division of the South 12-8-03 59 1 Texas Veterans Health Care System. Two of our brother 2 locals in San Antonio had an informational picket a couple 3 of weeks ago, and it generated some interest by the media, 4 which generated some interest from us, in that we wanted to 5 bring attention to the national C.A.R.E.S. Commission 6 recommendation to Mr. Princippi, which is due pretty 7 quickly, any day now. Mr. Princippi, I understand, is 8 supposed to make a decision December the 31st. The impact 9 of that decision can be very egregious for the Kerrville 10 facility. We feel like, as a local labor organization, that 11 the veterans would be better served having acute care beds 12 kept in Kerrville, and we want to have a rally in support of 13 that. We've got endorsement by the Hill Country Veterans 14 Council, by the veterans service organizations, by just 15 everybody that we've contacted about having a rally here. 16 The bottom line is, this is about quality patient care for 17 the veterans of Kerr County, and all of the veterans in the 18 surrounding counties as well. So, that's why we want to 19 have this rally. Very positive thing. It's bipartisan. I 20 don't know if that hurts or helps by saying that, but it's 21 bipartisan. I don't think anybody can dispute the fact that 22 we need quality patient care for our veterans. That's what 23 we want to do, and have this rally here. Generally, when 24 you have something like this, it takes place at the 25 facility. We feel like, because of the essence of all of 12-8-03 60 1 the support that -- that is forthcoming, that this would be 2 a more appropriate venue, and that's why we respectfully 3 request to have the rally here on the courthouse grounds. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Ward, what time will 5 the rally be? 6 MR. WARD: Be from 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. on 7 Saturday, December the 13th. I've spoken with 8 representatives from the trades day organization, and 9 they're very much encouraged by this, and they would like to 10 see this happen as well. Would be a very symbiotic 11 relationship. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many people will 13 you anticipate, possibly? 14 MR. WARD: Several hundred. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is a rally 16 exactly? I mean, are you just trying to gain attention 17 toward the issue? I mean, we're not going to get ugly out 18 there? Or are we? 19 MR. WARD: Not unless you show up, Buster. 20 (Laughter.) No, I think it's going to be very -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what I'm 22 talking about. Don't get ugly. 23 MR. WARD: It'll be very popular and very 24 positive. We hope to have some people marching around the 25 periphery with some posters in support of quality patient 12-8-03 61 1 care, keeping acute care beds here in Kerrville at the 2 Kerrville facility, and generating something that the media 3 might want to report on, and lend some weight to what we'd 4 like to see happen here. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval of the 6 request. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 10 approval of the agenda item. Any further questions or 11 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 12 your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 17 MR. WARD: Thank you very much. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Ward, you might get 19 with Glenn Holekamp, our Maintenance Director, just to let 20 him know as well that this is going to take place, so he's 21 aware for his maintenance, grounds, et cetera. 22 MR. WARD: Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item on the agenda is to 24 consider and discuss and take appropriate action on a 25 resolution of support for retention of 20 acute care beds 12-8-03 62 1 and 5 ICU beds at the Kerrville V.A. facility, as requested 2 by the Hill Country Veterans Council. Again, Commissioner 3 Williams and General Schellhase. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. 5 Just kind of a companion item. The issue is in front of us, 6 and the C.A.R.E.S. process, which is putting these 7 recommendations forward to the Secretary of Veterans 8 Affairs, Mr. Princippi, needs to know, and emphatically, 9 where not only the Hill Country Veterans Council and those 10 that it represents, but this Court, as to what takes place 11 at the facility. Very simply stated, this talks about 12 retaining the 20 acute care beds and the 5 ICU beds, and 13 making the point that instead of spending millions of 14 dollars in San Antonio, they can spend a lot less by even 15 adding more acute care beds here. I asked General 16 Schellhase if he would not only provide me with a lot of the 17 information which is contained in the resolution, but some 18 of the background material which is in your packet, to come 19 today and just give us a briefing, just a brief summary of 20 where we are in this and where he hopes it's going to go. 21 MR. SCHELLHASE: Walter Schellhase, 529 Water 22 Street, Kerrville. I came before you last month and brought 23 the issue to your attention and asked for a resolution to 24 the C.A.R.E.S. Commission, of which you did. We've lost 25 that battle. It's now a political issue. It's no longer 12-8-03 63 1 facts or figures as to what's best for the area; it's now 2 turned political. And it's been -- it's been done in a 3 rather unusual fashion. The committee's report is not due 4 Secretary Princippi until the 1st of December, which has 5 been delayed now till the 15th of December, and probably he 6 will not make his recommendation to Congress till January 7 15th, or refer this issue back to the committee. The 8 committee released the information to an A.P. reporter that 9 said that we need to transition the beds in Kerrville 10 immediately; that waiting until the year 2012 -- which 11 they've assumed it will take that long to do the 12 construction in San Antonio -- is unacceptable. Why they 13 released this information before the report, we feel like 14 it's one of the normal things that bureaucrats do; "We'll 15 release a little bit of information and see what the 16 kickback is going to be." We want the kickback to be big. 17 We don't know what the report's going to say 18 yet, because it has not been prepared, but the fact that 19 they've released this information that Kerrville is to close 20 those beds immediately and transfer them to San Antonio is 21 not a good sign for us. They have no facilities in 22 Kerrville -- in San Antonio to take care of our 20 beds plus 23 the 5 ICU beds. We have the facilities here to maintain the 24 20, plus add 20 more, so we're going a step further. We're 25 asking -- we asked the committee to not transfer our beds, 12-8-03 64 1 but to add 20 more. They've chosen not to do that, so now 2 it's in Secretary Princippi's hands and the congressional 3 leaders. We have not had Lamar Smith come up online yet. 4 He made none of the hearings. Kay Bailey made all of the 5 hearings or had someone there to present the fact that they 6 do not want to change Kerrville. Senator Cornyn has made 7 the major meetings; has taken the position that we do not 8 want to make the changes in Kerrville. As recently as the 9 30th of November, Lamar finally did write a letter to 10 Secretary Princippi saying we should not change these beds 11 in Kerrville. 12 It's interesting to note that since Lamar 13 Smith has been congressman for us, our hospital has gone 14 from 420 acute beds to 20. We've lost surgery. We've lost 15 our urologist. We've lost our pediatrics facility and 16 numerous other specialty cares. So, he's not coming up 17 online for us as we would like to have happen. In 18 discussion with his office, he's -- the comment is he's 19 working behind the scenes, and our position with 20 Secretary -- with Representative Lamar, he better come 21 forward now, because we're in a losing situation at this 22 time, and we need to take immediate action. The rally plan 23 for Saturday will certainly help bring some attention to 24 this. The resolution that you've passed, or propose to 25 pass, will certainly bring light to the fact that we need 12-8-03 65 1 help from congressional leaders at this time, because it's a 2 political issue. It's no longer in the hands of the 3 bureaucrats. 4 In addition to the resolution, we're asking 5 -- we'll have an issue coming out in the paper very shortly; 6 we're going to have sample letters, sample resolutions. 7 We're going to have the facts that Commissioner Williams has 8 in-hand to try to get the public involved. At this stage, 9 we need a lot of input from the citizens of this area in 10 order to keep these beds here and increase the others. The 11 proposal that they have made is totally ludicrous; it makes 12 no sense at all. We're taking care of patients here at $870 13 a day in our hospital. The closest to that is $1,200 a day 14 in other areas. Kerrville has the lowest cost per-patient, 15 per-day in the nation. Not just locally, but in the nation. 16 And yet they're going to close these beds and move them to 17 San Antonio, where the cost is over $1,200 a day. It makes 18 no sense whatsoever, but that's the way the committee has 19 chosen to supposedly have this in their report, which is not 20 due yet, but they say that that's what it's going to be. 21 So, we need the input from everyone. We have for each of 22 you -- we would like to have you do a letter in addition to 23 the resolution. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You want me to pass 25 those around? Just hand them all to me and I'll pass them 12-8-03 66 1 around. 2 MR. SCHELLHASE: There's two letters, one to 3 Secretary Princippi and one to our congressman. In 4 addition, in the paper, you will find we'll have a list of 5 those key people that are involved. Senator Evans chairs 6 the Veterans Affairs Committee. We need that input to reach 7 him prior to the secretary receiving the input from the 8 C.A.R.E.S. Committee. We need to have all of the 9 bureaucrats involved and knowing what has to happen and when 10 it has to happen, and the fact that this is a time-sensitive 11 issue and we need your input immediately, and we need a lot 12 from the public. Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: General, I have a 14 question. I notice on the -- in the backup, it gives all 15 the addresses, also gives e-mails. Do you have any feel if 16 letters are better than e-mails, or if it makes any 17 difference? I'm just wondering if e-mails aren't deleted 18 right away. 19 MR. SCHELLHASE: The best at this time is a 20 handwritten letter faxed to our congressman. First off, 21 letters right now are taking three to four weeks to reach 22 the congressman. They go through Pennsylvania, a clearing 23 area for the anthrax issue, and then they come back to 24 congress. The second best way is to -- like, in the case of 25 Kay Bailey, would be to send a letter to her office in San 12-8-03 67 1 Antonio, because they use carriers on a weekly basis to 2 carry information back to them. We still say the best way 3 is a fax. Handwritten fax probably gets the best attention, 4 quickest. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, thank you. 6 MR. SCHELLHASE: And we give all of the fax 7 numbers in the paper. It will be Wednesday or Thursday. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have a -- in our 9 backup, there's a -- 10 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes, I believe we provided 11 one to Commissioner Williams. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, fax is listed here. 13 MR. SCHELLHASE: We can't emphasize enough, 14 this is so time-sensitive that we need to act now. You 15 know, there's been a lot of issues, and it will be covered 16 in the paper shortly that -- that a lot of people are 17 opposed or have no concern about losing our acute beds, as 18 well as there's a lot of veterans being taken care of that 19 don't need to be taken care of at a V.A. Hospital at 20 government expense. For my own situation, I'm what they 21 call a Category 8. I'm the last that would receive care in 22 a V.A. Hospital. And if I do, when I go to the V.A. 23 Hospital, I have to pay for it; it's not a free ride for 24 those people that can afford it. A lot of people think that 25 this is the case; that every veteran's entitled to go out 12-8-03 68 1 there. That's not the case. The people that first get care 2 at the Veterans Hospital are those that are -- I believe 3 it's 70 percent disabled, service-connected. That cuts out 4 a whole lot of veterans. The second group are those that 5 are 30 percent disabled, service-connected. So, if you're 6 not service-connected disabled or have a condition that you 7 received in wartime, the chances of getting into the V.A. 8 Hospital with free care is not likely. You have to pay some 9 co-pay. You have to participate with your private 10 insurance, so that issue is not a big one any longer. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My only question, 12 Commissioner Williams, is what -- what was it that we did 13 about a month ago? Same issue? 14 MR. SCHELLHASE: That was to the C.A.R.E.S. 15 Commission. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Different -- 17 MR. SCHELLHASE: What you did went to the 18 C.A.R.E.S. Commission, and we lost. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This is going to our 20 various politicians and Mr. Princippi. I would move the 21 resolution as presented. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And authorize the 24 County Judge and the Commissioners to sign same. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 12-8-03 69 1 approval the agenda item. Any further questions or 2 discussion? 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got two 4 questions. One, do we know how many jobs we will lose if we 5 don't prevail on this issue? 6 MR. SCHELLHASE: If I had to make a guess, 7 it'll probably be around 25. That's strictly a guess, and 8 here's the reason. For any group of so many acute beds, 9 there's a package of support that goes with those acute 10 beds. When those 20 beds leave here, that support package 11 will go, and my guess is 25. I don't know; Dean might know. 12 MR. WARD: I'd say 25 to 30. 13 MR. SCHELLHASE: It will have a significant 14 impact, because it's not going to be minimum-wage people. 15 We're talking about high level doctors, skilled care, 16 including doctors and nurses. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The second question 18 is, this list of people we might contact to ask for their 19 help, what's the rationale for having the Honorable Henry 20 Bonilla as a part of that group? 21 MR. SCHELLHASE: Henry Bonilla may represent 22 the V.A. Hospital in Kerrville if the redistricting planning 23 goes through. He now has the San Antonio -- Audie Murphy is 24 now in his district. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's also a friend of 12-8-03 70 1 Kerr County. 2 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes, and he has -- we've 3 been to him on numerous occasions with regards to the V.A. 4 Hospital. He has never come up online in support of 5 anything that we've done, and the reason is -- his rationale 6 is, "That's out of my district, and when Lamar comes up 7 online, I'll come up online." So, therefore, he hasn't come 8 up online. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Walter, let me say 10 something here. The motion on the table is to approve the 11 resolution. 12 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But you're asking us 14 to do that, as well as individually write letters to -- 15 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- these folks? 17 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The motion would 20 include sending this resolution to all of these various 21 people mentioned in the final resolve. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 23 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 24 your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12-8-03 71 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 4 on the agenda is to consider and discuss request to utilize 5 the open area in the lower level of the courthouse annex for 6 a Christmas party for clients of the Juvenile Probation 7 Department on December 17th, from 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I attached a letter from 9 Kevin Stanton requesting this, and I move approval. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second -- I'm sorry, 11 did you want it? 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Free food, though. 15 There'll be free food. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 17 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 18 discussion? All in favor, signify by raising your right 19 hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next 24 item -- 25 (Discussion off the record.) 12-8-03 72 1 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll go ahead and take our 2 mid-morning break, come back at 20 before the hour. We'll 3 stand in recess. 4 (Recess taken from 10:25 a.m. to 10:45 a.m.) 5 - - - - - - - - - - 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come back to 7 order, if we might, and resume the Commissioners Court 8 meeting scheduled for this date. Next item on the agenda is 9 consider and discuss the County Attorney's advice on whether 10 Commissioners Court has the legal authority to approve or 11 disapprove requests -- excuse me. We seem to have lost the 12 County Attorney. 13 MS. SOVIL: He'll be right back. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Why don't we move on to 15 Item 10 instead, pending his return? Consider and discuss 16 and set a public hearing on the subject of authorizing the 17 freezing of ad valorem property tax values on the 18 residential property of owners who are elderly and disabled 19 beginning in 2004. Commissioner Nicholson? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Proposition 13 21 provided that HJR 16 would authorize a county, city, town, 22 and junior college district to freeze property taxes on a 23 residential homestead of a person who is disabled or age 65 24 or older. That proposition passed statewide by a vote of 25 81 percent in favor and 19 percent opposed. It passed in 12-8-03 73 1 Kerr County by a larger margin, 87.25 percent in favor. The 2 act provides that -- that this government entity can -- can 3 authorize the freezing of property taxes for those groups, 4 or that if we do not act, the voters can petition for an 5 election to determine the issue. It seems to me, with 6 the -- in view of the fact that it passed by 87 percent, 7 that an election on the issue would be redundant, and so I'm 8 proposing that we authorize a public hearing for the 22nd of 9 December at 10 a.m., and I make that motion. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a question, 11 if there's nothing else going to be said. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've got a question 13 before I can -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we all have 15 questions. Go ahead. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you want to second 17 it first? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, let's see what 19 goes. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Come on. I'm 21 wondering what -- what financial impact this will have on 22 Kerr County. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's exactly what 24 I'm wondering. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ballpark? 12-8-03 74 1 MS. RECTOR: You're looking at me? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ballpark? 3 MS. RECTOR: First year, probably about 4 $100,000 we're looking at, financial impact on Kerr County. 5 And then, as years go by, that will gradually increase as 6 people turn 65. And just one clarification on the agenda 7 item. It's not freezing the values, but it's freezing the 8 tax amount. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Freezing -- 10 MS. RECTOR: It's not freezing the values; 11 it's freezing the tax amount. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Tax bill. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rate? The rate? 17 MS. RECTOR: No, it's freezing the actual 18 amount of tax. So, say you're paying $300 a year in county 19 taxes. Your values can increase each year, but your taxes 20 will never exceed that. It's a cap on the amount of taxes 21 when they're frozen. You'll never pay more unless there's 22 improvements made to the property that increase the value, 23 and then that can increase your taxes. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My -- I guess the 25 question I have -- and I don't know who the person to answer 12-8-03 75 1 or who I'm asking, but it is, can the Commissioners Court 2 call an election without the petition of 5 percent? And my 3 reason is, my preference is for an election. I know an 4 election will cost money, but I also feel that 5 constitutional amendments, historically, and the elections 6 have a relatively low voter turnout. And also, by looking 7 at the constitutional amendment by itself, you don't 8 understand the full impact to all of the county taxpayers, 9 and I think that all county taxpayers, you know, have -- I 10 don't think it's my position as a Commissioner to, you know, 11 raise my hand and vote on this. I think it should be voted 12 on by the voters. It very well may pass in Kerr County, but 13 I think that the interest and the understanding of it would 14 be a lot better after an election, when everyone understands 15 that this will freeze people at 65 and over, but everybody 16 else is going to pay more, and I think that issue has to be 17 brought out to the public. And there are many that may be 18 65 or older that look at that and say, no, that's not fair. 19 So I think that the -- the -- you know, the impact to the 20 County would come out in an election, and I'm more in favor 21 of doing the election, even though it certainly -- election 22 does cost taxpayers money. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Give us the 24 opportunity to make sure that the public understands this 25 impact. $100,000 the first year is a pretty good chunk of 12-8-03 76 1 change, and I'm not sure people really and truly understand 2 that. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. But, I 4 mean -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know that, 6 but -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, I would -- I 8 mean, I think, you know, based on the -- based on the 9 numbers of the ratio that it did pass in the county, I would 10 be in favor of just calling for an election, but I don't 11 know if we have the authority of calling for an election 12 without getting 5 percent of signatures. So, that's the 13 reason -- my question is, can we just call for the election? 14 And then I would be in favor of that, but I don't know if we 15 have that authority, based on -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Way I understood it, 17 there has to be a petition from the public, from what I've 18 understood. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I -- I'll kind 20 of weigh in on this. I think that's a better approach. If 21 Commissioner Baldwin hadn't asked the question about the 22 impact to Kerr County, I would have, as well as others. I 23 want to know what that impact is, and I think it's only fair 24 that all of the voters in Kerr County have an opportunity to 25 at least learn through some form of public education as to 12-8-03 77 1 what this means. For some of us, me included, it would mean 2 a freeze of my tax rate, I guess, as well as -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Taxing. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or the amount of 5 money that I pay in any of the categories of taxation; is 6 that correct? 7 MS. RECTOR: County and the city. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: County and/or city. 9 MS. RECTOR: Right. The City has to go 10 through same motions that all -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not the rate or the 12 value of my property. But the flip side of that is, what 13 does it mean to the county? What does it mean to the other 14 taxpayers, and who's going to pick up the difference and so 15 forth? So, while we have an opportunity here, I'd rather 16 see us petition for an election, or if the County Attorney 17 tells us we can arbitrarily, through court order, without an 18 initiative petition, set a date for an election, then I'd be 19 willing to entertain that. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm looking at the 21 language, and it says we can -- we can do it, and then it 22 says, as an alternative, on receipt of a petition signed by 23 5 percent of the registered voters in the county, shall call 24 an election determined by majority vote whether to establish 25 a tax limitation provided by this subsection. So, I'm 12-8-03 78 1 reading that to say, no, we can't call an election; we'll 2 have to wait and get a petition. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, I agree. And I 4 think another thing, that if -- with what all that said 5 and -- well, what the resolution says, if it's a joint -- if 6 the City can do it and the County can do it, it would be 7 good, I think, to have the election on the same day. I 8 mean, if possible. I mean, that may not be -- I think it 9 would be less confusion to the public and to the voters, and 10 they'd, you know, get a true picture if it's one time. And 11 I think I would really encourage us to try to work that out 12 with the City if -- if and when we receive a petition, and 13 if and when the City receives a petition. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Where does that leave us on 15 the public hearing, gentlemen? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There was no second. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There was no second 18 to the motion. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: None being offered, motion 20 dies for lack of a second. We'll return to Item 1.8, 21 consider and discuss County Attorney's advice whether 22 Commissioners Court has the legal authority to approve or 23 disapprove requests made by elected officials to grant merit 24 pay increases to employees. Mr. Motley? 25 MR. MOTLEY: I found nothing that says that 12-8-03 79 1 it is illegal to implement the plan as -- as proposed. I 2 don't know if there is any authority to say positively that 3 it is legal. In any event, you know, I mean, often there 4 is -- there is no authority to say something is positively 5 okay. I found nothing to say it's -- it's not -- I don't 6 have anything to say it's prohibited. One suggestion was 7 made to me, and this would be -- I don't know if this is 8 this item or the next one, but procedurally, as far as the 9 rules as to how this is to operate, which I thought was a 10 really good suggestion, if there's a way to make these 11 nominations, I guess you'd call them, for the employees to 12 receive these additional benefits, these merit raises or 13 incentive pay boosts, if there were a way to make it 14 anonymous and apart, but neutral; not list the person's 15 name, just talk about specifically the -- the acts that were 16 done over and above what is required of the job, and look at 17 it strictly based on the merit of the work, as opposed to -- 18 not name the department or the individual involved, and 19 evaluate it that way, that seems like it would get an 20 additional layer of insulation and protection away from the 21 issue that Ms. Uecker was raising, which was she was 22 concerned about the Commissioners individually raising one 23 person's pay. And I think, even as proposed, that's 24 probably okay. 25 But if you were able to say -- and it might 12-8-03 80 1 be difficult in a department like a J.P. office, for 2 example, but if the -- 'cause J.P.'s only have one employee, 3 but if you were to make it just a -- a county office or a -- 4 you know, a J.P., something like that, and not mention who 5 the person is, and somehow maybe turn those in based on a 6 number system or something to the Treasurer or the personnel 7 officer, that would keep that issue, it seems to me, out of 8 -- of the person who it is or the department. At least the 9 person's name, who it is that's being considered. Then the 10 Commissioners could not be -- I won't say "accused"; that's 11 not exactly the right word, but couldn't be said to be 12 making decisions on pay according to the person's identity. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How would you like 14 "pilloried"? Does that work? 15 MR. MOTLEY: Say that again? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pilloried. 17 MR. MOTLEY: That's a controversial issue; 18 there's a lot of people that are fussing about it. But it 19 seems if -- if it were more neutral in that way, that it 20 might be even more likely to pass muster. I think to get a 21 definitive answer on this, I'd have to get an Attorney 22 General's opinion. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My reaction is that 24 the anonymity of it would last until the first paycheck was 25 waved in front of the other employees. 12-8-03 81 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It would not last that 2 long. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 4 MR. MOTLEY: Well, it may, and that may be 5 the case, but the -- the issue is not to keep it anonymous 6 from the other county employees, but to keep it anonymous 7 before the Commissioners Court when they're making a 8 decision, so you can't be accused of -- 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let's move on. 10 MR. MOTLEY: -- saying A or B. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One comment on that; 12 that that defeats the purpose of the merit pay scheme. The 13 purpose is to provide recognition for people who make a 14 significant contribution. 15 MR. MOTLEY: Well, that might be able to be 16 done even afterwards, after the decision is made based on 17 the merit. That might be able to be done once it's revealed 18 who it is. I don't think there's anything wrong with 19 recognizing the person. It's just the idea of, at the time 20 the decision is made, to know who it is and -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, if I might make 22 a comment -- and I sense some frustration with Commissioner 23 Nicholson, which I don't blame him for having some 24 frustration at this point, seeing how many -- how many times 25 it's been on the agenda. I think, you know, I don't -- what 12-8-03 82 1 I would like to see us do is discuss this at our strategic 2 workshop. I think -- you know, and I'm tossing it out right 3 now as an alternative, to do it during the budget process, 4 which I would favor more. Let the elected officials and 5 department heads be aware that we will give -- we will, you 6 know, consider merit increases at that time; let them submit 7 them at that time, and depending on budget considerations, 8 we can grant them at that time. And, you know, it kind 9 of -- I like the concept of merit increases. I think it 10 improves productivity. We kind of did it this year a little 11 bit in our budget process, but I think it -- that what the 12 problem that we are having here is how this body basically 13 is getting some oversight over independent areas that we 14 don't have any authority over. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't we move to 16 the next agenda item? I think the Commissioner has 17 something to say about all that. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner -- 19 let's do move to the next item. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me go ahead and 21 call Item 9 -- agenda Item 9, consider, discuss, and approve 22 policy and procedures for granting merit pay increases. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner 24 Williams and I met for about an hour, I guess, and -- and 25 discussed a concept that's different than the ones we've 12-8-03 83 1 talked about before. It's different in terms of the 2 process. And we're going to meet some more, and we'll come 3 back to the Court with a -- a different -- different way of 4 administering a merit program. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, good. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And the ideas that 7 we hear here, we'll take those into consideration also. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I would add only 10 one other thing. If we -- if the Commissioner and I are 11 able to forge this approach, which I think we can, we won't 12 have to worry about you doing any more research, Mr. Motley, 13 'cause it will -- it won't concern the Attorney General. 14 MR. MOTLEY: One of the things that -- I 15 mean, I'd like to make a comment about the -- the idea of 16 merit pay. It -- the thing that makes this innovative and 17 new and attractive, I think, is the fact that it's to be 18 done -- the raise is to be given at or near the time of the 19 excellent performance. That's what -- you know, instead of 20 delayed gratification, delaying it up to 11 months or 21 whatever. It's just more, like, I guess you'd say ordinary, 22 and real business in the real world, that somebody is 23 recognized at the next paycheck rather than the anniversary 24 of their employment or the budget year, and I think that's 25 an idea that's kind of outside the box, and I think that's 12-8-03 84 1 something that if -- if it could be worked out, I think it's 2 very creative and a good idea. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I want to make 5 my comment on it just real quick. I never have been 6 comfortable with this thing. I kind of wanted to ride it 7 through and see how it was going to work, and I don't see 8 that it's going to work the way that we've been going. You 9 know, we have the elected officials coming in that are 10 speaking against it. So, I mean, that, to me, is 11 confirmation that we're heading in the wrong direction. And 12 I think, in my mind, the wrong direction is -- is not -- not 13 giving it out to those persons that deserve it, but this 14 Court making those decisions. I just -- I think we're 15 totally and completely out of line. The only true way to do 16 it -- and we've tried it before, and I don't know why it 17 doesn't work -- why it didn't work, is -- is to allow the 18 elected officials to do their own. I mean, they're the ones 19 that can read that stuff. We have -- in my mind, we have 20 zero business making any kind -- I will not make -- I mean, 21 I won't participate in it; I can tell you that. I won't 22 have Linda Uecker jumping on me. We're not going to have 23 it. Not going to happen. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've been there and 12-8-03 85 1 done that. It's not fun. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move on. Item 11, 3 consider and discuss approving contract between Kerr County 4 and Ingram and Hunt Volunteer Fire Departments, and 5 authorize County Judge to sign the same. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move that we 7 approve the contracts between Kerr County and the Ingram and 8 Hunt Volunteer Fire Departments and authorize County Judge 9 to sign same. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 12 approval of the agenda item. Any questions or discussion? 13 All in favor, signify by raising your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item, 18 Item 12, consider and discuss request to reserve and use the 19 southeast corner of the Kerr County Courthouse square on 20 April 8, 9, and 10, 2004, for the annual mop and broom sale 21 by the Kiwanis Club of Kerrville. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. My 23 question is, are we going to keep putting these things on 24 the agenda, Judge, when they've been going on routinely for 25 -- since Hector was a pup? 12-8-03 86 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who is Hector? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hector's -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just teasing. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's that armadillo. 5 That's my question. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I -- I brought, on two 7 separate occasions, a request for a policy and -- and rules 8 for prescribing use of the courthouse facilities and grounds 9 to the Court, and -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You opened this thing, 11 Bill. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just wanted an 14 answer. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The second -- the first time 16 the administrative assistant/court coordinator was asked to 17 prepare a draft. She did so. Brought it back the second 18 time, and what I heard that took place the second time was 19 it's not a problem. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your Honor, true to 21 your profession, you didn't answer my question. (Laughter.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: So, until -- until we have 23 policies and rules in place, I suppose, yeah -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're going to keep 25 doing this. 12-8-03 87 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move we give the 3 Kiwanis Club, who has been doing the annual mop sale for 46 4 years, permission to continue doing so this year. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 7 discussion or questions? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question. In 9 the letter from the Kiwanis people to Glenn, it says -- 10 requesting that he notify the parking people that parking is 11 affected. Is anyone's parking affected out there? I mean, 12 those are not designated areas out there. Okay. 13 MR. HOLEKAMP: It's usually not an issue, 14 because they coordinate it with the Market Days people on 15 that particular weekend. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 18 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 19 your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Next item 24 is to consider and discuss Environmental Health Department 25 procedures, forms, and fees. 12-8-03 88 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge -- speaking of 2 Miguel, here he is. 3 MR. ARREOLA: Need me now? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're up, Miguel. I put 5 these next three items on the agenda kind of so we can talk 6 about them one by one. The first item is consider and 7 discuss Environmental Health Department procedures, forms, 8 and fees. I told Miguel that I really didn't think that 9 that was required, to come to the Court for us to approve 10 those. I think that's something that he has authority to 11 do. However, I did encourage him to come in and kind of go 12 over them with us, and in doing so, kind of give us more 13 information on the procedures of how he's running the 14 department, and kind of keep us up to speed, so if we get 15 questions and things of that nature, we're aware as to what 16 -- how the department is running. So, Miguel, I'll turn it 17 over to you. 18 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. Well, I think you got 19 the package of forms with you, and we're going to try to go 20 as the way it was presented. It's probably the 21 chronological order that we go in the department also. So, 22 the first one we have there is the application. That's the 23 largest of all the forms, and it has a lot of information in 24 there. We're required to have most of that information. It 25 is used later to review plans and to match with the property 12-8-03 89 1 and with the O.S.S.F. We do assist the customers filling 2 out the application if they need to. The -- the fees are 3 also posted in the application; all the fees for the 4 department are posted in there, and the hours that we're 5 available to assist, they're posted also. You got any 6 questions on that one? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: The expedite review, when does 9 that come into play? 10 MR. ARREOLA: That is when -- we have certain 11 time -- certain periods of time that the law gives us to -- 12 to turn in a document, to finish up a document. If they 13 need it faster than that and we have to jump a few other 14 customers waiting, we have to do that for next day, then we 15 charge them that. That is not used a lot. It's been used, 16 since I've been here, for two times, I guess, and that is 17 when they have to have it next day or same day, and 18 there's -- there's, you know, more paperwork waiting. If we 19 don't have anything waiting, you know, we don't charge that. 20 That is only when we have to move somebody out of the line 21 to give them that that way. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's say you've got an 23 application that is filled out by an applicant, and you've 24 got a bunch of stuff in the pipeline. 25 MR. ARREOLA: Mm-hmm? 12-8-03 90 1 JUDGE TINLEY: And the applicant is 2 requesting you to take some action earlier than what you're 3 required to do so under the law, and you've got plenty of 4 work ahead of you. 5 MR. ARREOLA: Mm-hmm. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there something that you 7 can clearly point to, in terms of what they're requesting, 8 that clearly authorizes you to charge that expedite fee? 9 That's my only concern. As opposed to having the customer 10 say, "Well, where'd you come up with that? How come..." Do 11 you have some rules or something that you've published and 12 given to them that says if they want this quicker than this 13 time frame, or if they want this other quicker than some 14 other time frame, that you're authorized to charge this 15 expedite fee? That's my only concern. I don't want to be 16 hearing that -- that you've just pulled out of thin air an 17 expedite fee on somebody without having some clear basis for 18 it. 19 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. Yeah, we have 20 T.C.E.Q. rules that tell us exactly how long we have to 21 finish that document. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 MR. ARREOLA: So we can go by that. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: You have something to point 25 to? 12-8-03 91 1 MR. ARREOLA: Yeah. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Good enough. That's all I 3 care about. 4 MR. ARREOLA: Any other questions on that? 5 In the back of that application, it has an acknowledgment 6 affidavit that explains the property owner all the rights 7 they have for that septic and all the obligations they have 8 with this office, where they approve us to go and inspect, 9 to go onto their property and all that. So, that's very 10 clearly stated in there, and they -- they need to sign it. 11 The next -- next one is the preliminary plat review, and we 12 use that to inspect the replats or plats we've used, and 13 it's very self-explanatory. We'll go by those items in the 14 list. That's what we review, and that's what we send back 15 to -- to whoever applies for it, tell them what we checked 16 and if you pass, or if you didn't pass, why you didn't pass. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What are the -- are these 18 fees set by the court? Or are they set by -- 19 MR. ARREOLA: It's already set. I think it 20 was set by the Commissioners Court. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- Subdivision Rules? 22 MS. SOVIL: Commissioners Court set them. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But this is part of our 24 rules we set with Subdivision -- 25 MS. SOVIL: Fees are separately set. 12-8-03 92 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's the fees page in 2 the -- part of the Subdivision Rules, so if we wanted to 3 modify this, we'll do it when we do the Subdivision Rules. 4 MS. SOVIL: No. No, you -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, it doesn't have 6 anything to do with subdivision. 7 MS. SOVIL: Has nothing to do with 8 subdivision. 9 MR. ARREOLA: That's just the fee for the 10 department, I think. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is an O.S.S.F. fee, 12 okay. The -- and the reason I was asking, I mean, I think 13 it might be a good idea to put that fee on here. 14 MR. ARREOLA: Include it in here? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Include the fee amount on 16 here, if there's a way to do that. 17 MR. ARREOLA: If I'm correct, I think that 18 process starts with the Road and Bridge Department. That's 19 where they have the forms, and then it comes to us as a 20 separate issue. We do have our own fee, though, so we can 21 add it in our application. It's not going to be an 22 application for a septic, but we can add it to it. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just think it ought to 24 be on that form, so when they fill out the form, they know 25 what that fee is. 12-8-03 93 1 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Full disclosure. Good point. 3 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. The next one we have is 4 the request for septic license search. That is used when a 5 customer doesn't know if the system is licensed or not, and 6 if they need to sell, they need to upgrade, the license has 7 a lot to do with it. They fill out this form, and we look 8 in our database, in our files, and everywhere we have to 9 make sure it does have a license or not. We also have a 10 book that is free of charge with a printout from the 11 database if they want to look themselves, if they want to 12 look in there. If they can't find it or they don't want to 13 do that, they can let us do it. It's a $10 fee for that 14 search. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- and, again, on 16 this one, I think I'd put that fee on here. 17 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. In the application also? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And -- and up there, 19 where you have the -- allow minimum of 24 hours for reply. 20 MR. ARREOLA: Uh-huh. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think probably we ought 22 to put a -- you know, a maximum as well, or how long -- 23 needs to be replied between 24 to -- you know. 24 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just so people know that 12-8-03 94 1 -- you know, and also they understand that it'll take 2 however long it's going to take, whatever that is. 3 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. You might take that 4 to -- okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask a question 6 here. Now, if -- if I come to your place and I want to know 7 about some other septic tank -- I mean, that's basically 8 what this is -- your staff will go in and search the 9 information out and get it to me, and you're going to charge 10 me 10 bucks for that? 11 MR. ARREOLA: That is if -- if it's not 12 available right away. If we can find it on the computer the 13 minute you come in, we'll let you know, and it's no charge. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What if I want to 15 search it out myself? 16 MR. ARREOLA: It's a form in there, in the 17 front entrance. It's free of charge, and you can look. 18 It's a thick book with all the septics that we -- we know in 19 the county. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, it is available 21 for the public to come in and do their own research without 22 being charged? 23 MR. ARREOLA: Without being charged, yes, 24 sir. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. Thank you. 12-8-03 95 1 MR. ARREOLA: You're welcome. Okay. The 2 next one is the complaint form. That one is used when 3 someone calls or comes into the office and reports a 4 complaint. We try to get as much information as we can 5 pertaining to the property with the problem, and then we do 6 inspections on it. This form, it's -- it takes some time to 7 finish with it. We do a lot of follow-ups on those. So, 8 it's -- the form is designed to have some room for 9 follow-ups and notify whoever needs to be notified. And 10 then, at the end, it -- it asks us if we can close that file 11 or not, or we got to continue with it. So, this is a 12 complaint form. It does -- it does not -- is not the only 13 part that we do. We do a lot of reports on it, but there is 14 the basic of it, the front -- front part. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This is a good -- 16 good process, and it's helpful to me in terms of getting 17 educated about how you operate. I'm thinking about the 18 issue of access to property. Say you've got a complaint; 19 somebody suspects that their neighbor's system has failed, 20 and you go out there and that neighbor won't allow you 21 access to the property. What are your -- what's your 22 recourse for that? 23 MR. ARREOLA: If we're not allowed into the 24 property, either by -- posted, the doors locked or gates 25 locked, and it's posted, "No trespassing," we can go in. We 12-8-03 96 1 got to notify the law enforcement for that. If we're 2 allowed to go, then we do it. If we're not allowed to go, 3 either they don't let us in or it's posted not to go in, we 4 have the right, under the T.C.E.Q. rules, to go. You know, 5 we have the authorization to go in, but we have to notify 6 the law enforcement. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To go or to get a 8 court order to go? 9 MR. ARREOLA: No, to go. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon? 11 MR. ARREOLA: To go. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To go? 13 MR. ARREOLA: Mm-hmm. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Whenever you do go, do 15 you leave, I guess, a card, a note, a letter or something 16 that says -- 17 MR. ARREOLA: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- we were here? 19 MR. ARREOLA: We were here and we need to 20 talk to you, and call me here or call me there. We leave 21 numbers and all the information we got in that. We try, 22 when this is -- when this comes out, we try to get in touch 23 with the property owners first by phone or by mail or 24 something, trying to talk to them and explaining that we 25 need to do an inspection, and let us in, try to get their 12-8-03 97 1 permission before we go, but not always is possible. 2 Sometimes they're, you know, vacant properties; nobody's 3 there. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 MR. ARREOLA: Any other question on that one? 6 The next one is the fax cover sheet that we use. It's 7 pretty simple. I don't know if you got questions on that 8 one. The next one is the permit to construct. That one, in 9 order to get to here, there's a lot of in-house, a lot of 10 internal forms that we need to go through. I didn't bring 11 them in, 'cause it's pretty lengthy, but it's basically the 12 plat review forms, what we use to review each plan. We need 13 to do an inspection before we get to this one. We got to 14 have a site confirmation, we call it. Once everything is 15 okay, application is in place, and we did all reviews that 16 we needed to do, then we issue this permit to construct. 17 This is to inform the property owner and the installer and 18 whoever else is involved that it is approved to go ahead and 19 start the construction. Nobody can start construction of a 20 septic system without this permit. The only exception is 21 when the property is exempted from the permitting process. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Couple questions, 23 please. From the time that someone fills out an 24 application -- 25 MR. ARREOLA: Uh-huh? 12-8-03 98 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- to the time that 2 they get a permit to construct, how long is that? 3 MR. ARREOLA: It varies a lot. It depends on 4 when they bring us the planning materials. Some people come 5 in and fill out the applications, and it's -- the property 6 owner's the one who needs to do it, or the agent. They come 7 in and leave the application sitting in there until someone 8 comes in with planning materials. After we get the planning 9 materials, it takes us two or three days normally. We do 10 have, under T.C.E.Q. rules, up to 30 days to do it, but, you 11 know, our experience has been two to three days and we can 12 get a permit ready. But, from the time of the application, 13 it varies a lot. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second question. 15 MR. ARREOLA: Uh-huh? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And Commissioner 17 Baldwin will be happy to know this. I got my first 18 complaint about O.S.S.F., and you'll be even happier to know 19 that I referred the party to the manager. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So you will be 22 getting a complaint. 23 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Would you take us -- 25 and this issue has to do with a dispute over whether or not 12-8-03 99 1 an aerobic system is needed. And I think, in our earlier 2 deliberations, you'll recall that we learned that we have 3 more aerobic systems in Kerr County than they do in Bexar 4 County. Of course, they're a larger municipal, you know, 5 city. But we have -- we have -- by any measure, we have way 6 more aerobic systems than similarly situated counties that 7 have our soil types, and so this complaint has to do with a 8 disagreement that an aerobic system is needed. Will you 9 take us through the steps that you go through -- 10 MR. ARREOLA: Sure. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- to determine what 12 kind of system is needed? 13 MR. ARREOLA: We actually do not determine 14 the type of system. That is with the designer, the 15 installer, and the property owner. They get together and 16 they decide what type of system. We only might say no or 17 yes after it's already presented. We do not tell them what 18 type of system they need to have. Sometimes aerobic units 19 are not -- they don't fit in the property; they don't have 20 the area for the disposal. Sometimes the type of soils, 21 sometimes the, you know, easements that they have on the 22 property. Every property is unique and has different 23 situations on it. So we do not determine -- we do not tell 24 anybody what type of system they need to have. We just 25 approve or not approve what was presented. I don't know the 12-8-03 100 1 specifics on that one, but -- but if it was not a good soil 2 for anything else and they had to have an aerobic, that was 3 the only better option, you know, that's what they need to 4 have. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Miguel, but isn't -- I 6 mean, I think, almost without exception, there's always an 7 alternative. 8 MR. ARREOLA: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The cost may be, you 10 know, worse than the aerobic or -- 11 MR. ARREOLA: Mm-hmm. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- whatever, but there's 13 -- and I guess the -- I guess, what is your philosophy how 14 -- or your department's philosophy on helping the public 15 understand what types of systems they have the option to 16 use? 17 MR. ARREOLA: Sure. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess it goes back to 19 the education issue. 20 MR. ARREOLA: Mm-hmm. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And -- you know, and it 22 may be that we need to get to the next step of what we've 23 talked about, developing some educational material. And 24 that -- my idea of them going through where we are so far on 25 this, as soon as someone gives you an application or signs 12-8-03 101 1 an application, we give them this material and say -- 2 MR. ARREOLA: This is the -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- this is kind of an 4 overview of Kerr County septic rules -- or not rules, but 5 septic systems. 6 MR. ARREOLA: What we do -- and we do that a 7 lot. There's a table on T.C.E.Q. rules of all the approved 8 systems in the state of Texas, so what we do when we see 9 that the customer is not sure what they're going to get or 10 that they can argue already what type of system, we give 11 them a copy of that, and that presents all the different 12 systems approved and the type of soils that go into it, so 13 it's pretty easy to read and understand and see what options 14 they have. An aerobic is not the only solution most of the 15 time. But there -- the rest of the solutions, they're more 16 expensive, so that's why they go with -- with an aerobic. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, Miguel, you sign 18 this? 19 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And you give this 21 to -- this permit to the builder and/or the landowner? 22 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And you indicate on 24 here what kind of system is approved -- in particular is 25 approved? 12-8-03 102 1 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It sounds like 3 you're telling me you're not the one that decides that an 4 aerobic system is needed. 5 MR. ARREOLA: No. I just approve if the 6 aerobic system will fit on that spot or not. If they 7 present to me plans for an aerobic system and I review the 8 plans and I determine that it's a good system for that 9 property and the surrounding environment, I approve it. You 10 know, I'll sign it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The installer decides 12 what the system for the property -- 13 MR. ARREOLA: Installer and homeowner. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And they submit a plan 15 that you approve or not approve. You don't care what kind 16 of system it is. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, if I've got a 18 new construction and I contact one of the builders, the 19 installers, and he says I -- I need an aerobic, and I don't 20 think I do, then my option is to go find another installer? 21 MR. ARREOLA: That will be one of your 22 options. If the installer says only -- I do only aerobics, 23 then you probably want to go and find someone else. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it would be 25 probably a good idea if the page out of the T.C.E.Q. you 12-8-03 103 1 referred to -- 2 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd give that to 4 everybody. I'd give that to everybody. When they get an 5 application, I'd give them a -- a page as to -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He almost said that 7 they did that. But back to your question of your complaint, 8 why -- why didn't that person have all those options in his 9 hand? This sheet of paper with a list of all the options. 10 Why didn't that person have that? 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And that's -- he 12 should have it. And why is it he believes his grievance is 13 with Miguel instead of the builder? Why -- he's mad at 14 Miguel. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I suspect the installer 16 told him Miguel wanted it. You know, just because it's a -- 17 pass the buck. But I don't know that; I shouldn't say that, 18 'cause it's -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, the installer 20 tells him, "You have to have an aerobic system." He doesn't 21 think he does, and the installer says, "Oh, yes, you do." 22 So, our citizen or taxpayer is mad at our employee. 23 Something's wrong there. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hello? Did we say 25 we're going to have that problem? 12-8-03 104 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to -- 2 MR. ARREOLA: We can solve it. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can solve it by giving 4 the information out, maybe. 5 MR. ARREOLA: We can easily explain to the 6 homeowner what the situation is. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the first step in 8 that is when someone fills out an application, we give them 9 something right now, and I think we need to work on that to 10 make it as user-friendly as possible. And I don't have a 11 problem on putting in range of cost of the systems for Kerr 12 County based on experience. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask something. 14 I agree with that, but at what point does the property owner 15 get to us? See, he's out there dealing with -- dealing with 16 the designers for a long time before he even gets to us, 17 does he not? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but when -- the 19 homeowner has to do the application, though. 20 MR. ARREOLA: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, early on, we have 23 the opportunity to -- 24 MR. ARREOLA: We can provide that, mm-hmm. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That's his first contact, when 12-8-03 105 1 he comes in to -- to make the application, or maybe even 2 prior to that. But hand him the information of permissible 3 types of systems. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't understand why 5 that wasn't done. That's my question. Why wasn't that 6 done? 7 MR. ARREOLA: Probably -- I don't know if 8 it's the same -- I looked at one Friday, and I don't know if 9 that's the same one you got there. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No, he was mad by 11 Friday. 12 MR. ARREOLA: All right, that's not the one. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, it's a he. This 14 is going to be a piece of cake. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And what I'm hearing is -- and 16 possibly, in addition to giving the applicant -- the 17 landowner, giving him the permissible -- 18 MR. ARREOLA: The type of systems. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: -- tabulation of all the 20 permissible types of systems, specify that you don't -- 21 MR. ARREOLA: I don't control. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: You don't specify what type of 23 system he can or can't have. 24 MR. ARREOLA: That's right. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That's between him and the 12-8-03 106 1 designer-slash-installer. However, if the system, as 2 proposed, is not in accordance with our regs or T.C.E.Q. 3 regs, you have the authority to disapprove it. 4 MR. ARREOLA: That's correct. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Something to that effect. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. Is there 7 not a situation where a property owner working with his 8 designer/installer comes in with a plan, and you know that 9 the soil conditions in this particular location are such not 10 to be able to accept a system of that design, and you would 11 say to that, "I think this is not the way it ought to be. 12 We should do an aerobic." Is there not a situation that can 13 occur like that? 14 MR. ARREOLA: I will not mention the word 15 "aerobic." I will probably say -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Alternate. Forget -- 17 other, alternate. 18 MR. ARREOLA: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there not a 20 situation where, by your own knowledge of soil conditions at 21 a site specific, -- 22 MR. ARREOLA: Uh-huh? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- you would have to 24 say, in good conscience, "That won't work, sir. You have to 25 do such-and-such"? 12-8-03 107 1 MR. ARREOLA: You have to go to a different 2 option, yes. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That could happen? 4 MR. ARREOLA: That happens. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Then that means you 6 do sign off on whether it's an appropriate system. 7 MR. ARREOLA: Sure, that happens. What we do 8 here is -- and that's the internal forms that I was talking 9 to you about. Once we get the planning materials, then we 10 go and do our first inspection. We check the soil and site 11 conditions all around, and then we'll know if that design he 12 was provided is good for that specific location. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You say you check 14 the soil. What do you actually do? 15 MR. ARREOLA: We have them dig two 5-foot 16 deep holes in the property where they want to have their 17 disposal, and we actually check the soil by texture. We 18 check the soil and make sure it is good soil and it's 19 permissible for that type of system. And if we disagree -- 20 and that is also in the T.C.E.Q. rules. If we disagree with 21 what they believe it is, then we have to go to a lab or a 22 professional soil scientist and have them take that 23 position. Once we get clear on what type of soil it is and 24 we know that the system they design will fit in there, will 25 work fine, will not pollute the environment, then we will 12-8-03 108 1 review the plans and issue the permit. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do you do a perk 3 test? 4 MR. ARREOLA: No, that's not approved any 5 more. We do check the soil with texture. Soil texture is a 6 type of test we do. So, we actually go in and we can say, 7 "The design you presented is not good, is not going to 8 work." But I don't say what to bring me next. They can 9 design and tell us what they want to have instead. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Would you say, 11 Miguel, if aerobic systems have been oversold, then that 12 overselling has been done by -- by septic builders? Not -- 13 it hasn't been done by you? 14 MR. ARREOLA: Not by us, I'm sure. We had 15 nothing to do with that. There's some people that goes into 16 my office, property owners, and they want to have an 17 aerobic. They find it good; they find that they can water 18 their lawn. They like it. So, you know, even though they 19 don't need to, they want to have it. We tell them that you 20 don't have to go this way; you have good soil, but they want 21 it, so it's their decision. We don't encourage anybody to 22 have any specific system at all. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is why we need to 24 improve the education part of it. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 12-8-03 109 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the -- that's a 2 key to correcting the misconception, is to get the 3 information out to the public that, you know, here are your 4 options. 5 MR. ARREOLA: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And all we need is a -- 7 you know, and let them figure out their own. I mean, they 8 can look at the soils and figure out whatever, look at the 9 table. But if it's relatively user-friendly -- and we can 10 make it user-friendly if it isn't, I think. 11 MR. ARREOLA: It is. It's very clear. It's 12 very easy to read and understand, and we use it a lot. 13 Probably not in that specific situation, but we use it a 14 lot. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, you know, the 16 aerobic system is good that you can water your yard, but you 17 may want to tell them that if you live up, like Commissioner 18 Baldwin does, on the hill, you water everybody's yard. And 19 when the thing gets -- gets a little stinky at times, you 20 stink up everybody. I mean, you're not alone, though, see? 21 I mean, that's the good part of it. It just doesn't get 22 stinky at your place; everybody gets it. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I've talked to -- I 24 know Dave and I both talked to Miguel about this, and I 25 think, you know, it's a good time just to, you know, 12-8-03 110 1 sometime in the first or second meeting in January, if that 2 works with your schedule, to bring back an educational rough 3 draft form, and then we can send the bill to U.G.R.A. to pay 4 for it. But -- but do a -- to get the -- 'cause this is a 5 priority, I think, to get this done and move forward. And 6 we want to let you, obviously, get settled in in the new 7 office space, and there's more settling to do, but hopefully 8 at that time we can have some sort of information that we've 9 looked at, and really start approving that public 10 information. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jon, I have another 12 question that could -- I sense that you're closing this 13 thing out, but under the agenda item, it's O.S.S.F. 14 procedures, so I have a specific question about that. Let's 15 get back to the aerobic systems again. You know, a couple 16 of years ago, I'm -- I have an aerobic system, and I'm 17 required to do an annual contract, maintenance contract. 18 Required by the State. 19 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To do an annual 21 maintenance contract. And a couple of years ago, that 22 angered me a little bit. I did -- I refused to do that, and 23 after a month or so, I get this cute little letter from 24 U.G.R.A. at that time, and I assume that I would get them 25 from you from this time on, that said something like, "Our 12-8-03 111 1 records indicate that you have not renewed your..." da, da, 2 da, da. That's fine. So, we rock on another month or so, 3 and then I get this threatening letter saying, you know, 4 we're going to put you in jail and you're going to rot and 5 all this stuff, or something similar to that. And -- and at 6 that point, I -- you know, I -- of course, I don't want to 7 end up in a lawsuit; I'm an elected official, and that's 8 stupid and everything, so I complied. I wrote the check and 9 got my maintenance thing. Here's my -- here's my question. 10 You leaned on me pretty good to comply with the law, and 11 that's cool. I'm glad you did that. Now, what if that 12 company doesn't comply with the contract I have with them? 13 Do you lean on them as well? 14 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you really? Would 16 you check mine, please? 17 MR. ARREOLA: Sure, I will. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right, thank you. 19 MR. ARREOLA: We do. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 'Cause they're overdue 21 with the damn contract. I've got to live up to it; so 22 should they. I bet you that happens a lot. A lot. I'm 23 sorry to interrupt you. 24 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. Yeah, we do have the 25 obligation to check on the managed providers. 12-8-03 112 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you write those 2 ugly letters like that, too? 3 MR. ARREOLA: Uh-huh. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, god, I'd love to 5 see one. Can I sign off on one of them? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Now it's going to be 7 signed by you. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah, absolutely. 9 I want to participate in this deal. 10 MR. ARREOLA: Okay, we'll bring you one. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Write to yourself. 13 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. Any more questions on 14 that? We got the next form; it's basically just a wrap-up. 15 It's called a design and inspection report. That contains 16 all the information we got into the process, and it's used 17 for a database information. It's what we put in our 18 computers. And also, it's a detail on when it's approved, 19 when it's not approved, what is missing, what is not 20 missing. At the bottom is what we finalize it with, 21 "Approve for license or transfer." We're still doing 22 transfer, so we're still using that part. But it's just 23 a -- a finalized form of all -- everything we did. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Miguel, there's obviously 25 a lot of forms and follow-through, and how, if at all, are 12-8-03 113 1 they related? Like, can you -- like, when you say you go to 2 generate this form, these people have already given you some 3 of this information several times already, and -- such as 4 the owner name, location? 5 MR. ARREOLA: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All that. Is there a 7 mechanism right now that you can just type in the file 8 number and the form will print everything that it already 9 has? 10 MR. ARREOLA: We're working on that. That's 11 our goal. That is the process I tried to implement a couple 12 years ago. We want to have that. We want to have a system 13 that it will make it easier for everybody and faster for 14 everybody. Right now, we're kind of doing everything by 15 hand. And we got new computers that's going to help; we 16 just need the programs in those computers to make them work, 17 but it's possible. We're already working on it. We have 18 all the -- the steps done; we just need to get them all 19 together and, you know, hit a button and get it going. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 MR. ARREOLA: So, that's next. Next one we 22 have is the O.S.S.F. receivables. This is what we use for 23 everyday log and the moneys received in that department. It 24 is turned in every day to the Treasurer's department, signed 25 by them, and then we file it for our own reports. We use 12-8-03 114 1 this a lot too, every day. The next one is the actual 2 license to operate. It is just an example of a license to 3 operate. It contains the owner information, the property 4 information, and some highlights of the system, and just 5 general information of what we did. This is what the 6 homeowners get. Normally, a typical homeowner will come and 7 do the application and then won't see anything else until 8 they receive this license to operate. Normally, the 9 installer/designers get involved in the rest, and he just 10 comes in with the application and then, at the end, receives 11 his license to operate. Yes? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: When it's a system that 13 requires a maintenance contract, I assume you specify that 14 in Special Conditions? 15 MR. ARREOLA: Special Conditions, highlighted 16 and bolded. It says, "This system requires maintenance 17 contract," yes, sir. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. 19 MR. ARREOLA: You're welcome. And the last 20 one we have is the one Mr. Baldwin received that says -- 21 letter to the homeowners, and this goes straight to the 22 homeowners. It's -- according to T.C.E.Q., they are the 23 party responsible for the maintenance contract. It goes to 24 the maintenance -- to the homeowner saying it has expired, 25 and then normally give him 30 days to get a new contract in. 12-8-03 115 1 This is just the first letter. We actually send a reminder 2 before this letter; that's like a postcard, and if we don't 3 get anything, then we send this letter. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Remember, Miguel, you 5 still have U.G.R.A. on this one. 6 MR. ARREOLA: Do I? Probably gave you the 7 wrong copy, then. Oh, that's right, it's here. Okay. 8 Yeah, we just need to work on it. It's the same as -- we'll 9 change it to Kerr County. Those are my forms. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Miguel, do I recall 11 that -- that the system owner does not have the option of 12 doing his own maintenance? 13 MR. ARREOLA: They don't. No, sir, not in 14 this county. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And, again, that's 16 T.C.E.Q. rule? 17 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. Well, it is -- they 18 -- they might be able to get it if they get a Class D 19 wastewater operator, and they get trained by the 20 manufacturer of the system. So, it is possible, but they 21 have to get a special license for it. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There are -- there are 23 -- there are some folks in this county that do that, that 24 have done all that. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I think that's it 12-8-03 116 1 for this item. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move on to the next one, 3 then. Item 14, consider and discuss allocating parking, 4 installing signage, and policy on exterior door use. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the agenda, 6 and this is just a couple of things to look at, everything 7 from designating parking spots to door and signage, things 8 of that nature. Probably, to me, out of this, one of the 9 most important is probably to designate two spots for the -- 10 MR. ARREOLA: Jeeps. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- County jeeps for the 12 Environmental Health Department. As we head down to our 13 other offices that have vehicles and that are at the 14 courthouse, I don't have a really strong preference. I 15 don't think that Miguel does either as to where they are. 16 Most of the designated spots are kind of in that lower level 17 or on the ramps, and there's employee-only slots on both 18 ramps coming in on the Jefferson Street side of the 19 courthouse, and I would just recommend that we take two of 20 those employee-only slots and make them Environmental Health 21 Department vehicle slots. The other item is -- and this 22 one -- there's -- it's not clear-cut in my mind as to 23 whether we want to open up some of those employee-only spots 24 to the public, or specifically for customers of the O.S.S.F. 25 department. And the reason I say that is that it is -- 12-8-03 117 1 currently, all the slots down in that area are reserved for 2 Kerr County employees or Kerr County vehicles, and it's 3 quite difficult for the average person, including myself, to 4 get down there from here. When you come into this 5 courthouse, to get down to the O.S.S.F. is -- it's not real 6 convenient. And if we would remove some of those 7 employee-only spots on these ramps, I think it would be, you 8 know, kind of beneficial, and then put some signage when you 9 come into the courthouse square that O.S.S.F. department is 10 down there, or actually give signs as to where they are. I 11 just think it would probably make it easier to get people in 12 and out of that department where we do have public coming in 13 and out. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You take the -- take 15 the employee-only signs off and put what up? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. I've 17 thought about putting "O.S.S.F. Customers," but I think -- I 18 don't know. Some other elected official or department head 19 or someone told me, "Why don't we give hot check people 20 slots? Why don't we designate..." So this is really -- I'm 21 more in favor of just making them open places for people to 22 park. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because I think, 25 otherwise, you start going down a road that may get us in 12-8-03 118 1 more trouble. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me respond, if I might, 3 Commissioner. We probably need to designate some spots for 4 the two County-owned vehicles that the O.S.S.F. people 5 utilize, very similar to the Juvenile Probation. We've got 6 two vehicles that we leave here. That, of course, is a 7 matter of designation. Haven't heard where they ought to be 8 designated. I've heard where some have thoughts that they 9 should not be designated, and that's that first ramp there 10 on the west side where you come in at the back where the tax 11 people and some of the people from the Tax Office and the 12 County Court at Law are parking. They've been utilizing 13 those spots, even though they're not assigned spots. So, I 14 have a bigger problem with designating those spots for use 15 of customers or applicants or patrons of the O.S.S.F. I 16 think you got a real slippery slope. Why not have some for 17 Juvenile Probation for the County Attorney? For the 18 Treasurer? For the -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner 1. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, Commissioner 1, visitors 21 for him. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Should. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: And then how are you going to 24 enforce it, even if you do that, after you pay a bunch of 25 money for signage? I think we may have another issue with 12-8-03 119 1 trying to do some signage; we've got some economic issues. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I mean, I would 3 think this -- just from a -- where I would recommend that we 4 put the two vehicles is on the -- the eastern side -- 5 eastern ramp going up. I don't know how many -- I think 6 there's four spots over there that are employee-only slots 7 right now? 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, that's probably right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I would designate two 10 of those to Environmental Health Department vehicle slots. 11 And I would also recommend that on the -- the western slope 12 coming down, that we remove all those signs; let anyone that 13 wants to park there. And the reason is, I mean, I 14 understand that people are -- you know, as -- if we're going 15 to ask the public to go down into that area, I think we 16 ought to provide parking. And, I mean, that's where this 17 office is. And I understand it's going to possibly 18 inconvenience, you know, some employees, but, you know, we 19 have -- you know, we have an employee parking lot up on the 20 top level. And I think that it is important that we allow 21 and provide parking for people that use the courthouse, and 22 this isn't designated just for O.S.S.F.; this is Juvenile 23 Probation, people that go to Hot Checks, and that ramp is 24 various people. And if we put signage up there that 25 points -- you know, that says that those departments are 12-8-03 120 1 down in that lower level of the annex, including the County 2 Attorney, I think it would help, because I think it is -- it 3 is not user-friendly right now to have people coming into 4 this building and trying to get to the lower level of the 5 annex, and I think that we should do what we can to 6 accommodate the public. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: As far as -- as far as 8 parking is concerned, I would take that as a recommendation, 9 what you just laid out. And the way I understand it, the 10 County Judge is the parking guru of the courthouse, and has 11 authority to assign parking places -- oh, yeah, you do. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We might have to get 13 a legal opinion on that. The next thing, he'll be wanting 14 to approve merit increases. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or have broom and mop 16 sales. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We don't want to give 18 him that much authority, my god. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 20 we direct either the County Judge or the Maintenance 21 Director to install two signs -- or replace two of the 22 employee-only signs on the eastern ramp to Environmental 23 Health Department vehicles, and remove all employee-only 24 slope -- I mean, employee slope -- employee-only signs on 25 the western slope. 12-8-03 121 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 3 further question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 4 signify by raising your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How much do the signs 9 cost, Glenn? Are we talking about, like, those -- you know, 10 like, parking-type signs, those blue ones that we can 11 make -- I guess Road and Bridge can make them? I mean, what 12 is the expense to get signs to say that the departments that 13 are located in that lower annex that would like to have 14 their names on it, with the directional signs too, that say 15 where those departments are located? 16 MR. HOLEKAMP: It really depends on how much 17 -- how elaborate you want them, where you're going to locate 18 them. I'm not in agreement with putting signs on the 19 outside of the building, personally, against the brick. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I'm thinking more 21 on a sign -- 22 MR. HOLEKAMP: But where else would we put 23 them? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think more on posts, on 25 the corner on the top of the ramp. 12-8-03 122 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, you're talking about a 2 signpost, and we can probably get the metal material from 3 Road and Bridge at cost and do the lettering. Probably 4 $200, $300 a sign. That's cost, now. That's not -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe we can hire 6 somebody to stand up there and do this. 7 MR. HOLEKAMP: You know, and I'm -- let me 8 take this a little further. I know y'all are getting close 9 to lunch. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, it is. 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: There is a lot of confusion as 12 to how we get people down there. I don't have the answers, 13 other than very expensive signage. Do we want to put signs 14 on posts in the walkways? The issue that -- I don't think a 15 lot of people understand that most of the people that are 16 going downstairs are not interested in looking; they're 17 interested in finding. They -- they're not even looking at 18 the signs that are there, so I don't know what it's going to 19 take to put enough signs to get people there, whether it be 20 outside, and giving them directions from outside through 21 that door. Once they get in the door, it's going to be very 22 difficult. And that's just a -- we can use ropes and, you 23 know -- you know, directional things like a theater. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was thinking more in 25 lines of painting some duck feet -- 12-8-03 123 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: We can do that. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- on the floor. 3 Follow the duck feet. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: A lot of times we have trouble 5 getting people off of this first floor to get them down to 6 the basement. They really make some really nice signs, 7 $350, $400. They're glass-enclosed, because they have the 8 letters that you remove that has the -- what the number is, 9 the office number, but there's no arrows. And people are 10 not patient enough so say, "Well, it's BA-106; that's 11 basement," or -- you know, so they stand there. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know what the 13 answer is. Maybe the answer is to ask you to look at it a 14 little bit more. But I think that somehow, we need to -- I 15 think we have an obligation to the public to provide signage 16 to get them from this floor to the basement annex. And it's 17 not easy. And it's a -- when people -- when I've met people 18 out in the hall that are usually trying to get to David's 19 office, rather than -- I start out trying to explain it, and 20 I just say, "Well, just follow me." It's easier just to 21 walk down there and do it, and it shouldn't be that hard. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do we have a basic 23 courthouse directory? 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Is there 12-8-03 124 1 anything wrong with posting it there? 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: People -- my point was -- is 3 that there's no patience in this world for people to stop 4 and look at that thing and follow that direction. It's the 5 same plan that they use for evacuation of the courthouse, 6 you know, in case of fire. They're posted at the elevators 7 downstairs, and this level and second floor. Those types of 8 signs can be placed here in the halls. We can put them on 9 -- they make them where they're on, you know, the little 10 stand. Looks like disc plowshares, and you can move them 11 anywhere you want to. You can change the lettering. But, 12 there again, they're portable, changeable letter boards, 13 they call them. You can put it out in the middle of the 14 hall; you can change them if you're having a meeting 15 upstairs, whatever. But it's going to take more than one. 16 It's going to take probably six, seven of those things in 17 this -- to -- to direct everybody to the different 18 locations. Because I guarantee, the people that are going 19 down to see David in his one department, they're really not 20 very interested in going there. So, I guess what I'm saying 21 is, is this Court -- the Court's going to have to kind of 22 make a decision as how much money do you want to spend? Do 23 we really want to do a study on signage? Which we can do. 24 These -- these Road and Bridge signs that are made with the 25 -- you know, the plastic that we hang, they're a little 12-8-03 125 1 cheesy, you know, for -- to put on walls in here, I think. 2 They'd work outside, probably. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think the -- 4 you know, I don't know. I think the plowshare signs or plow 5 disc signs, I mean, almost -- I think we need to do one. I 6 mean, my concern is to get people from this first floor of 7 the courthouse into the basement. If we can get them into 8 the basement, I mean, I -- 9 MR. HOLEKAMP: No. I -- and I'm not arguing, 10 but once they get off the elevator, they are in a different 11 world. They're in Kendall County. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe -- maybe the 13 Court would be willing to accept your recommendation if you 14 came back and gave us a list of signage and the reasons and 15 the cost and where they're going to be placed, because we're 16 not going to settle this today, whether we're going to do 17 Road and Bridge or a $400 sign. So, why don't you put 18 together a package for us and tell us what we need? 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: And the reason I say these 20 $400 signs, and I'll preface that, is the -- that's with the 21 removable lettering. If you don't do the kind with the 22 locking front, you're going to be without letters after a 23 little while. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That should be in 25 your recommendation. 12-8-03 126 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, there's a reason. So, I 2 would really like -- if y'all would give me a little time, 3 I'll be glad to try to put a plan together for you. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: But from the exterior of the 6 building, there really needs to be some -- figure out how we 7 can do that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Just -- I think 9 it's something we need to look at, and it's been an issue, 10 and it's more of an issue now that O.S.S.F. is downstairs. 11 So, I agree, Commissioner Williams. Why don't we request 12 that Glenn come back? And I believe, Glenn, as you told me 13 earlier, the door situation has been handled. That door is 14 left unlocked? 15 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, it is unlocked. And that 16 brings up another issue. We -- and I may have to do this by 17 memo. We're -- and I'm not blaming Miguel or his people by 18 any means, but on the weekends and at night when you come in 19 here, you got to relock those doors when you leave. There's 20 some doors have been being left unlocked, and it's not my 21 people. We check them twice. So, I don't know -- we may 22 have to -- Miguel's been real good about it; I'm not fussing 23 at him by my means. But we usually lock up. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A memo would probably be 25 a good idea to send to everyone in the courthouse. 12-8-03 127 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: Some of them are getting a 2 little more lax about it. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I think that takes 4 care of 14. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 15, consider and discuss 6 authorizing purchasing additional office equipment and 7 build-out to Environmental Health Department. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you'll find 9 attached a -- a list of office equipment-type needs that 10 Miguel needs to complete his office, and I'll turn it over 11 to Miguel to go over his list. 12 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. Well, that is equipment 13 that we need, that we got to have to operate, to be 14 efficient, to provide a good service for the public. We 15 really need to have it. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glenn, is there any funds 17 left over from the 10,000 that we allocated for the finish 18 out? 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that -- is there going 21 to be funds left over after the -- the -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Counters. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- counter's built? 24 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you know how much, 12-8-03 128 1 about? 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: No. We're working on the 3 prices on the -- on the counter thing as we speak. There's 4 some -- there's some costs there that -- there's some 5 unknowns right at this moment yet, because I'm losing one of 6 the -- one of the really good carpenters that is currently 7 in the trustee program is leaving. So, I'm looking at both 8 trying to -- not keep him in, no. Trying to look at a 9 couple of placements where they build those tops that we -- 10 all we have to do is build the frame. That's an option that 11 I'm looking at right now, because it may be more 12 cost-effective than trying to build the whole thing. I 13 think that can be done. A workstation for $500, I would 14 think. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Will you have $1,600 16 left over when you get through? 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: I'll get pretty close to that, 18 sir. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Pretty close? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: I found -- I don't know if 21 anybody -- if Miguel said anything; I've located another 22 lateral filing cabinet for him last week. 23 MR. ARREOLA: That one didn't have the 24 pull-out. 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: Pull-out so they can -- they 12-8-03 129 1 just have to make sure their tabs are to where you can read 2 them on those kind. Right? 3 MR. ARREOLA: That's pretty hard to get to. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: I know. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, Glenn 6 and his people have done a great job of holding down costs 7 and turning that into a very good office, and our O.S.S.F. 8 people have done a good job of getting in there and getting 9 organized, and I believe they have to have this equipment. 10 I think we've done it right so far, and we shouldn't stop 11 now. We ought to go ahead and get the file cabinets we 12 need. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. And the file 14 cabinets, Glenn found a file cabinet -- I didn't know they 15 made them like this, but the drawers don't slide out, which 16 makes it difficult for -- I mean, they have to file -- the 17 system doesn't work; they can't pull out the drawers. They 18 can use them for storage of office supplies and shelf space 19 and that way, but it doesn't really work as a file cabinet. 20 But, I mean, I agree with Commissioner Nicholson that we've 21 -- we have a heck of a bargain getting that whole office 22 space and the equipment that we have in there for $10,000 -- 23 or I guess it's $14,000 -- yeah, it was $4,000 for the 24 others. So, we have some money from U.G.R.A. Either way, 25 we got -- we've got the start-up costs down to a minimum, 12-8-03 130 1 and I think we just need to, you know, authorize Miguel to 2 spend up to this for these items, up to this -- to this 3 amount. And if it requires a budget amendment, you know, 4 when all the bills come in, we'll do it at that time. But I 5 think that we need to authorize the purchase of this final 6 equipment, and if it takes -- if it means spending an 7 additional $1,600, we'll -- 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: What is on that list? 9 MR. ARREOLA: It's a -- 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: Sorry. On chairs, right 11 now -- and this probably is not the place to talk about it, 12 but on the chairs, they've got some on sale right now over 13 at Office Max, very reasonable. They've got a sale going. 14 I would encourage, if they do go, it would be a good time to 15 go. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll just make a motion 17 to authorize the Environmental Health Department to expend 18 up to $1,637.81 for the equipment listed, and if a budget 19 amendment is required, to come to the Court at that point to 20 complete the build-out; that Glenn has just a little bit of 21 an unknown on what the file cabinets will be. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second the motion. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 24 approval of the motion. Any further questions or 25 discussion? 12-8-03 131 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just had a -- I want 2 to make a comment that I agree with everything that was 3 said. And we're also -- you're talking about possibly 4 signage, and in my mind it got up to around $1,000 there for 5 a few minutes, but at some point, we have to slow down. I 6 mean, we have to say, "This is about it." 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're about 8 there. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I hope so. I 10 hope so, 'cause we -- we keep adding on every week. But you 11 got to have the stuff to function; I understand that. Why 12 didn't you get it before you came over here? That was a 13 joke. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 15 discussion? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor -- 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, go ahead. No, 19 I do. I just -- Miguel, thank you for your -- for your 20 input and the briefing, and I hope to see you in here 21 regularly. 22 MR. ARREOLA: Sure. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let us know how we 24 can help you. 25 MR. ARREOLA: I mean, yeah, I want to thank 12-8-03 132 1 the Court for all the help we've been receiving, and I think 2 we're doing good so far. We haven't got complaints, unless 3 the one Mr. Nicholson said, but that probably be the first 4 one. We're doing good and installers are happy, and the 5 professionals in the industry are okay in the county. So, 6 you know, we -- if I just get this lot of equipment, I 7 probably be ready, set to go. All right. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've got something 9 before -- or after you take the vote. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question, 11 discussion on the motion? All in favor, signify by raising 12 your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge -- before you 18 move on, Manuel (sic), AACOG has released its allocations 19 for solid waste programs, and there is about $1,600,000 20 available over Fiscal '4 and '5, years four and five, for 21 priority projects of source reduction, reuse, local 22 enforcement, litter and illegal dumping clean-up, citizen 23 collection stations, small registered transfer stations, et 24 cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I'll give this to you to see 25 if there's anything in there we can get some money out of. 12-8-03 133 1 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One other final comment, 3 and I meant to bring this up on the procedures. We can 4 bring it up at one of our future times. Miguel and I have 5 talked briefly just about monthly reports and communication, 6 and for everyone to think about -- I think it would be a 7 good idea to have a monthly report, but to have Miguel come 8 probably every other month, maybe every month, and present 9 the report so we keep a good dialogue going with that 10 department, so we don't -- anyway, we'll -- I'll put that on 11 the agenda at a future time as to the frequency that is 12 probably appropriate to have Miguel come up and give a 13 presentation report, just give us an update. Thank you. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any items to be 15 considered in executive or closed session? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, I would like 17 to hear a briefing from the County Attorney on the potential 18 litigation involving the Juvenile Detention Facility in Kerr 19 County, if any. And I don't know whether that's appropriate 20 in executive session or -- or the time for reports. 21 MR. MOTLEY: I'd say it was an item -- if it 22 is to be done, it needs to be done in executive session. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, it would be. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Want to come back 25 after lunch that and do that? Or are you prepared -- I'm 12-8-03 134 1 just going to shut up. Whatever y'all want to do. 2 MR. MOTLEY: I'll come back after lunch. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's make it after 4 lunch; we have a few other items to go through, reports and 5 all the Auditor's. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: We will stand in recess until 7 1:30. 8 (Recess taken from 12:04 p.m. to 1:30 p.m.) 9 - - - - - - - - - - 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll call back to order the 11 regular Commissioners Court meeting scheduled for this date, 12 Monday, December 8, 2003. At the time that we recessed, we 13 had considered through Item 15, and we were down to the 14 executive session portion of the agenda. Is there -- is 15 there a need -- some need on behalf of anyone on the Court 16 that we need to go into executive session for any of the 17 matters as specified on the agenda? 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. At this time, we 20 will go into executive session. We will -- we will recess 21 the closed session at 20 minutes till 2:00, and we will now 22 go into executive session. 23 (The open session was closed at 1:38 p.m., and an executive session was held, the 24 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 25 - - - - - - - - - - 12-8-03 135 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll first inquire if we -- if 2 anyone wants to propose any formal action to be taken as a 3 result of what occurred in Executive Session? Hearing none, 4 we'll move on to the approval agenda. We need to pay the 5 bills. Where is Tommy? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where's Tommy? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move that we pay the 8 bills. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I second that. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 11 we pay the bills. Any discussion or question? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I had a question, but I 13 couldn't find that we were paying it, so I won't ask. 14 MR. MOTLEY: Do y'all want me to go get 15 Tommy? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, do we have any budget 17 amendments? 18 MS. ALFORD: He has something on a budget 19 amendment. 20 MS. SOVIL: Yes, he does. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, he does. 22 (Discussion off the record.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: You said you had a question on 24 one of them? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- the question was 12-8-03 136 1 really related to floodplain as to a bill, but I don't think 2 it's in this group of bills; I couldn't find it anywhere. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I didn't see it 4 either. 5 MS. SOVIL: I thought they turned it in. 6 That may be the budget amendment. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's a 8 possibility. 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got a question 11 on Page 5. Juvenile Probation, $2,441.25 to Tom Green 12 County Treasurer. What is this for? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That's placement of a child up 14 there at Roy Robb facility, cost of that child being placed 15 there. That's a facility operated by Tom Green County. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: In my work with Hill 17 Country Youth Ranch and through 3-H Youth Ranch, I've seen 18 that probably all of the children that we have in those two 19 facilities are not from Kerr County, and I've seen that, 20 because of their different backgrounds, that very often the 21 chances of them being involved in the criminal justice 22 system is better than the average child in Hunt. So, I'm -- 23 what I'm wondering is, because we have these facilities -- I 24 think Star Ranch would be one of them, too, and we bring 25 children in from all over the state to Kerr County. Do -- 12-8-03 137 1 does this wind up -- do we wind up underwriting the costs of 2 these kinds of things and others for other counties? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You mean if they commit a 4 crime in Kerr County? Or if one -- I mean, if one of the 5 juveniles at Star Ranch does something wrong, is that a Kerr 6 County resident or another county resident? 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mm-hmm. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: No. If you take a -- a 10 resident of 3-H, Hill Country Youth Ranch, and they engage 11 in conduct in Kerr County, they -- they come under the Kerr 12 County juvenile justice system. It does not revert back to 13 their county of residence. The -- the thing that determines 14 it is where the conduct occurs. Now, the placement of this 15 particular child took place out of the Kerr County Juvenile 16 Court, but the placement was in the Roy Robb facility up in 17 Tom Green County. We've got a number of them. We send them 18 to San Marcos, Hondo, Corpus -- 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Medina. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kerr County kids or 21 out-of-county kids? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Kerr County. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: Kerr County. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, it's -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good question. 12-8-03 138 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: When the State of 2 Texas places a child from San Antonio, and probably half of 3 them out there are from San Antonio, at a facility -- a good 4 facility here in Kerr County, and then the chances of those 5 children having some legal difficulty are a great deal 6 higher than -- than the average here in our community, -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- they wind up -- 9 the State -- we can be altruistic about it, say it's a good 10 thing we're doing, but it's a fact that the State of Texas 11 is sending us children that wind up costing us. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, I see your point now. By 13 virtue of them originally coming from elsewhere, becoming 14 residents of Kerr County by virtue of an initial placement 15 here, then there's difficulty, and then they end up being 16 subsequently placed, yeah, that's certainly a possibility. 17 So, yes. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. That's -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: We may be getting more than 20 our fair share. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I just -- my point 22 was to make sure I was seeing this correctly, and I think I 23 see that I am seeing it correctly. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: May be something we 12-8-03 139 1 want to think about sometime. That's all I had. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Page 6, two laptops, 3 Environmental Health. Did I miss something? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We just approved them 5 for that. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They were approved from 7 the amount of money we sent to U.G.R.A. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Like, $14,300. Part of 10 that was to -- or $18,000, whatever that amount, not that 11 U.G.R.A. money. It was part of that original -- 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Budget amendment. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- budget amendment, 14 those two laptops. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I remember the U.G.R.A. and 16 the vehicles and so forth. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This included that. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. That's all I have. Any 19 other questions? Comments? All in favor of the motion, 20 signify by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget 25 amendments? 12-8-03 140 1 MR. TOMLINSON: I need a clarification of a 2 prior budget amendment, and it has to do with -- with the 3 Floodplain Administration. And in -- in the minutes, it 4 indicates that we've -- we budgeted $5,000 for -- for 5 salary, but I need to know whether or not this salary 6 comes -- is it a salary or is it a contract? Because 7 there's no provision in the budget amendment for -- for 8 retirement or FICA on that $5,000, and so I have a statement 9 from -- from the administrator for 34 hours. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: 34? 11 MR. TOMLINSON: 34 hours. No, I'm sorry, 12 39.5 hours, yeah. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what I saw. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: And the total is $1,343. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, is the -- in the 16 budget, under Floodplain Administration or Floodplain, 17 whatever this thing is in our budget, when we did the 18 budget, it was all -- it was a payment to Upper Guadalupe 19 River Authority of $5,000, as I recall. Now we've taken 20 that program back, so that $5,000 needs to be put into a -- 21 a budget, I would think. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, we did that. We -- we 23 actually set up a separate department within Road and 24 Bridge, within the fund that Road and Bridge is -- so we 25 have an account set up for salary under that department in 12-8-03 141 1 the Road and Bridge budget. But my question is whether or 2 not we need to pay FICA and retirement on these dollars, or 3 if the FICA and the retirement comes out of the $5,000 that 4 we've approved. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it comes out of 6 the $5,000 that we approved, and I think we have to pay it. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: I think you have to pay it 8 too. I think that's -- I mean, you -- the Court indicated 9 that that was part of his job, so I -- and there is no 10 contract, so I think it needs to be payroll. But -- and, I 11 mean, it's time to pay him, and -- and I just need to know 12 whether to tell -- give these hours to the Treasurer, or 13 to pay it through -- cancel payment. So, what I'm hearing 14 is it needs to go to the Treasurer to be added to his -- to 15 his salary. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, I would think so. I 17 mean, I think -- I mean, as I recall, we -- the County 18 Engineer came in with a $40,000 budget request, something 19 like that, and we said no, we didn't like that. We got 20 $5,000 to spend for a while, and then we'll take another 21 look at it. That's kind of what I remember us doing. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's what I do, 23 too. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. Well, we can't 25 have an employee who also doubles as a contractor, so it has 12-8-03 142 1 to go through the Treasurer. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, I think so too. But I 3 just needed to know there wasn't anything approved for -- 4 for the benefits. So, I -- I just need to know whether 5 to -- you know, to take it out of the $5,000. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd say, for right now, 7 take it out of the $5,000. And considering we're going 8 through that pretty quick, I presume we'll have a budget 9 amendment to look at sometime in January or February. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. At this rate, 11 we'll be out of money in February. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, I think part 13 of that was schooling, wasn't it? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Quite a bit of it. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what it 16 indicates, yeah. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: That's all I need. So, we'll 18 do it -- 19 MS. SOVIL: There's a schooling budget that 20 part of that needs to be taken out of, then. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Based on here, I don't 22 know -- these are just hours here. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: 20 hours on training and -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, but there's -- I'm 25 sure there were some hard costs to go to that school. 12-8-03 143 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That are going to come 3 under a -- 4 MR. TOMLINSON: That will be a different 5 conference -- right, that will be different line. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: That's all I have. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. I have before 9 me minutes of the Kerr County Commissioners Court Special 10 Session, Monday, November 3; Kerr County Commissioners Court 11 Special Session, Monday, November 10; Kerr County 12 Commissioners Court Regular Session, Tuesday, November 11; 13 Kerr County Commissioners Court Special Session, Monday, 14 November 24, all in 2003. Do I hear a motion that these be 15 approved as presented? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved -- second. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 20 the designated transcripts of minutes be approved as 21 presented. Any question or discussion? All in favor of the 22 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 12-8-03 144 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I have before me monthly 2 reports from the Sheriff, County Clerk, Justice of the Peace 3 Precinct 3, and Justice of the Peace Precinct 4. Do I hear 4 a motion that these monthly reports be approved as 5 presented? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 9 the designated monthly reports be approved as presented. 10 Any questions or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 11 signify by raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Okay. 16 That brings us down to the information agenda, Reports from 17 Commissioners. And I have done a little doctoring to the 18 agenda, in case some of you haven't noticed. I've added to 19 that Liaison Committee Assignments so that we'll have an 20 opportunity to hopefully include any reports that each of 21 you may have about your respective liaison designations. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I have one 23 liaison -- I have three items here I want to talk about. I 24 don't know where they come under all this, but the one 25 liaison is the 9-1-1 issue. This week, as you know, we're 12-8-03 145 1 closing out the year, and all this addressing and all that 2 going on, and January 1 is the target date of putting the 3 new addresses in place, you know, and doing all that thing 4 that we've been working on so hard. This week the 9-1-1 5 folk are meeting with the postal people out of San Antonio 6 to finalize, dot all their little I's and cross all their 7 little T's on the -- on the postal end of it, and then as 8 soon as that's over, Commissioner Letz and I will then go 9 and meet with the 9-1-1 people and finalize the whole thing. 10 So, it's a -- I mean, not finalize it, but just be briefed 11 to make sure that everybody's doing what we said we're going 12 to do and all that. So, that's my liaison report. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Do you have anything 14 other than that to offer? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, I do. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question 18 here. We've been talking about doing our think tank. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or whatever. I like 21 "think tank." I can't wait, by the way, to get in there to 22 ask you guys, "Are y'all thinking?" I mean, we can smoke 23 cigars and think together; this is going to be fun. We had 24 received a letter, or at least I did, from a member of this 25 community that is interested in being the facilitator. Did 12-8-03 146 1 everyone receive that? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Three. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I got three. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I only got one. Okay. 6 So, are we considering those? Or what -- to be honest with 7 you, I can't remember where we are on this thing, or where 8 we were going. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I'll tell you what I've 10 done. I think I did it at the Court's direction. This was 11 my understanding. I contacted the L.C.R.A. representative 12 locally, Mr. Roland Pená. He, in turn, has been in contact 13 with some people in his organization. He indicated that 14 there are at least two individuals in his organization that 15 are truly professionals at this, and that he was working 16 with them on scheduling. I -- I gave to him our selected 17 tentative date, which I believe was January 21. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Something like that. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: On a Wednesday, I believe. 20 And the only response I've gotten so far is that they 21 schedule these sorts of things a number of months out, and 22 that he's trying to clarify schedules, and he may be coming 23 back to see if we can utilize maybe a different date, maybe 24 not. I don't know. But I'm waiting on hearing from him 25 again. I expect I'll be hearing something real soon. 12-8-03 147 1 Secondly is, I contacted Texas Association of Counties, also 2 at what I believe was the direction of the Court, to try and 3 have someone from their organization to maybe give us input 4 because of the governmental aspect. In contacting those 5 folks, they do not have anyone, per se, that acts in that 6 capacity. I have a call in for the Assistant Executive 7 Director, just to talk with her about general guidance on -- 8 on the government aspect of it, about the possibility of 9 maybe somebody from their legal department, or maybe not; I 10 don't know. We'll just see where that leads. But L.C.R.A., 11 of course, has some governmental overtones, since it is a 12 political subdivision itself, so I would think they would 13 have some ability to relate to the government aspect of it. 14 But that's where I am on it. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Three? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've had three 17 queries. One has resulted in a package of information 18 coming from someone you probably know, Christopher Avery out 19 of Comfort. Not the Chris Avery that runs for his father 20 the jewelry company. So, I've had three inquiries; one was 21 local, one was this gentleman, and I forgot the other one, 22 all of which I just said, "Thank you. Appreciate the 23 information. I'll tell the Court at the proper time." 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've had one inquiry, and 25 I advised that person that, of course, they knew that there 12-8-03 148 1 would be no compensation for this effort, and they withdrew 2 their name. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've had three, and 4 I passed the names on to the Judge. One of them wanted 5 compensation, and I wouldn't recommend that person, and a 6 couple other ones would be excellent. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there's a -- a 8 plus and a minus for using someone in government, whether 9 TAC or L.C.R.A. I mean, I think you -- it's good because, 10 obviously, they deal with things that are unique to 11 government, which helps. But the other hindrance is that 12 they tend to be focused on things that are good for 13 government, which can be bad. I mean, it's kind of -- so 14 it's just -- I don't think we should -- just because, you 15 know, they're not associated with government, I don't think 16 we should necessarily rule them out. I think we should try 17 to find the best person at facilitating. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: A good facilitator 19 won't have any opinions on the substance of our issues we're 20 talking about. They -- they only help us manage the 21 process, so if a facilitator starts engaging in evaluating 22 the subject matter, then he or she's doing the wrong thing. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll give you the 24 names, Judge, so you can follow up later. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all are way beyond 12-8-03 149 1 me. I didn't realize all that was going on. That's good. 2 The third thing is our Christmas party. We're going to have 3 our county Christmas party on December the 24th, and 4 hopefully we'll start eating at 11:00, and hopefully it will 5 be through around 12 noon for those that lock the doors and 6 head out, be through. I think everybody's kind of planning 7 on being around -- excuse me -- around the courthouse 8 through noon on Christmas Eve anyway, so hopefully this 9 thing will work out just right. Bill has found us a cooker, 10 someone that'll cook for us, and he -- that person needs the 11 meat by the 22nd of December, which is plenty of time. 12 Which brings me to the point of us paying for it. So, 13 historically, what has happened here is each member of this 14 Court kicks in 20 bucks or 25 -- I can't remember what it 15 was, but $20 would be $100 worth of meat. How much -- will 16 that buy enough to feed -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- the county system? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're talking about 20 brisket. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 120 people to feed? 22 So, I mean, I don't know how to figure all that out. I'm 23 not a cook. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Half pound a person? 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah, 60 pounds. 12-8-03 150 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's about right; be 3 about probably $25. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: $25 apiece will do 5 it. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $25 apiece will do it. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Brisket only. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, talking about 9 brisket. And former Commissioner Butch Lackey, at my 10 request, has agreed to do the barbecuing over -- smoking 11 over at his big -- got a big pit somewhere in the vicinity 12 of the park over there, and he will do that. Like Buster 13 said, we need to have the brisket in his hands by probably 14 the morning of the 22nd. So -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can we do this? Let 16 me ask you this; can we put the money in his hands and let 17 him -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I think probably 19 what we need to do is give our money to Thea, and she's got 20 the pot. We'll -- between she and I, we'll try to find out 21 what the best price is, whether it's here in Kerrville or 22 whether we got to chase to San Antonio or some place else. 23 We'll get the meat purchased and I'll get to it him on the 24 morning of the -- of the 22nd. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we need to get 12-8-03 151 1 the -- give the money to Thea? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He agreed to cook it, 3 not buy it. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll be glad to visit 5 with one of our local meat companies that helps this Court 6 out on occasion. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, fine. If you 8 can get it cheaper, let me know. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bernhard's has donated a 10 lot over the years for us, and they might just get the 11 briskets at cost or below cost. 12 MS. SOVIL: They can get shoulder clod. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think shoulder clod 14 instead of brisket. Less fat, which -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whichever. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll call and find out 17 about that. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If we need $25, fine. 19 If we need less than that, fine. Whatever. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll call with how much 21 -- I mean, how much -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You get back with us, 23 how much we need. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll tell Thea, and then 25 she can -- 12-8-03 152 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. That all right? 2 And then, on top of that, then we're going to -- you're 3 going to send out a memo to the courthouse people that this 4 thing is definitely on, and to be sure to bring a dish; you 5 know, whatever it is y'all say to each other every year? 6 MS. SOVIL: If you want me to. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'd like for you to, 8 if you don't mind, please. Actually, I'd like to add to 9 that that everyone is required to bring a dish. There's 10 been times where a group have gotten together and furnished 11 something together, and the rest of the courthouse family 12 thinks that's a little bit unfair, et cetera. So, I'd like 13 to see -- I'd like to see the verbiage on there that 14 everyone is required to bring a dish -- not required, but 15 please do. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or dessert. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Or dessert. A dish of 18 some sort. And ladies first. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ladies first on bringing 20 the food? Or -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ladies first in line. 22 And I'll tell you privately why I say that. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think I know the 24 answer to that. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a tough one. 12-8-03 153 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have anything further, 3 Mr. Baldwin? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's it. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, let's see. I 7 think, since I'm looking at this list here, I -- how'd my 8 name get on all this? Airport, we've pretty well kicked 9 that around this morning. I don't know anything different. 10 There's a meeting tomorrow, which is a regular monthly 11 meeting. The Library Board is dormant for the month of 12 December; however, I have in front of me a request from the 13 Judge to prepare thoughts on the revision of a contract in 14 response to a letter the Judge received from the Mayor. I 15 will do that, with a "Merry Christmas" salutation. Let's 16 see, what else? Tomorrow is -- tomorrow is the semiannual 17 meeting of AACOG, and I did share with our Environmental 18 Health people today some information about solid waste 19 moneys that are available. Hope that we can get our hands 20 on some of those. And I think, other than that, I'm -- our 21 Kerrville South project, with the Judge's signature, some 22 letters went out to three property owners seeking response 23 for some easements that we need to move the second phase 24 along. That's all I have. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That it for you? Okay. 12-8-03 154 1 Commissioner Letz? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Commissioner 3 Baldwin covered the 9-1-1 issue. Ag Barn, nothing new from 4 the standpoint of projects out there, though I know of 5 several groups in the community that are working on various 6 ideas and concepts, and so I suspect that sometime during 7 2004, some new trial balloons will be floated on what to do 8 with that facility, and not coming out of our strategic 9 planning group. And also, just to remind everybody that 10 January is the stock show, and traditionally we all 11 participate in that event, so line out those days on your 12 calendar. I'm not even sure what days they are. I think 13 it's late this year, though. But -- and I guess the other 14 thing -- it's not a liaison, but of interest because of the 15 cost of it, and the cost is getting higher every time I hear 16 a new number. Hermann Sons Bridge is -- I think right after 17 the flood, it was estimated that the new bridge was going to 18 be -- I think it was $680,000. Well, the last price I got 19 from TexDOT is $1.23 million. So, it's a -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not quite doubled yet. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not quite, but it's 22 getting close. But they haven't even -- don't even have a 23 contract yet, but it looks like right-of-ways are 24 progressing. Hope to hear from our last holdout very 25 shortly, and then talk with the County Attorney. We'll 12-8-03 155 1 probably be sending out actual agreement documents and deeds 2 and acquisition checks and all that stuff, and very soon. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Is that it? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Nicholson? 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Nothing to report. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything from elected 8 officials or department heads present today? Reports from 9 boards, commissions, committees? You'll note that I've 10 broken that out. What I'm -- I intend to do in the future 11 is, I have asked the City Manager to forward me, as a matter 12 of routine, copies of any reports that he gets in connection 13 with any activities which are joint activities; library, 14 airport, things of that nature. As those are received as 15 informational items, they will be part of the agenda, so 16 that at least there's an attempt to try and disseminate as 17 much information as possible. Doesn't appear as though we 18 have any this time, but just a heads-up, as we get them, 19 they'll be included in the next meeting. Road and Bridge, 20 nothing there. Anybody have a report from Road and Bridge? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just, I mean, the monthly 22 one that we, you know, get. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We currently get that. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We routinely get a 25 monthly report from Road and Bridge. I think that it's a 12-8-03 156 1 good -- I would really recommend that, either monthly or 2 bimonthly, that we start requiring department heads to come 3 in and give us a report. I think a lot gets lost. You 4 know, we get these -- I mean, so much volumes of paper come 5 in, and I think this goes back to better communication. If 6 we see these department heads on a more regular basis -- 7 maybe quarterly is the way the do it, I don't know. Monthly 8 may be too much. As we've talked about with Miguel this 9 morning, I fully intend to -- he needs to come up here and 10 report things to us in person, even though he does send us 11 the monthly reports. And I just think that it -- it 12 improves communication, so we might think about that as to 13 how we want to handle that; might put it on the agenda in 14 early January. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, you know, that 16 same line of thinking; at some point, I think that we need 17 to do the same thing with our appointees to these boards. 18 We have two over at 9-1-1, we have two at out at the 19 airport, and I don't know what else. I guess that's it, 20 but -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Maybe we'll get some on the 22 Library Board. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: May get some on the 24 Library Board. And -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We've got three right 12-8-03 157 1 now. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Have them to come in, 3 kind of give us a little -- we've never had that happen, 4 ever. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think it's -- I 6 just think it would be -- be good, and I think it would be 7 for all those people. Maybe we can invite, one month, the 8 department heads, and another month -- or some format. I 9 don't care how we do it, just so we get it done. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: One other item that I'd like 11 to throw out. Of course, the designation of the liaison 12 assignments customarily occurs in January, and that's now 13 upon us. We're going to have a new one, O.S.S.F. At least 14 that's the way I see it. Maybe y'all see it differently. 15 That's probably going to fall under somebody's primary 16 responsibility. But we could make that designation in 17 January. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not going to 19 come down this end of the table. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, it's not coming 21 down here. Stopping right there. Letz is the septic tank 22 guru. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Subdivision. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Kind of go hand-in-hand, don't 12-8-03 158 1 they? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you want to join 3 them, Judge, you can join them. It's not coming down here. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there anything else, 5 gentlemen? Being nothing further, I'll declare us 6 adjourned. 7 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 2:32 p.m.) 8 - - - - - - - - - - 9 10 11 STATE OF TEXAS | 12 COUNTY OF KERR | 13 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 14 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 15 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 16 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 17 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 12th day of December, 18 2003. 19 20 21 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 22 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 23 Certified Shorthand Reporter 24 25 12-8-03