1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, January 26, 2004 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X January 26, 2004 2 PAGE -- Commissioners' Comments 4 3 1.1 Introduce Christopher M. Avery, Ph.D., discuss 4 Long Range Planning Workshop to be held Feb. 11 10 5 1.2 Request to use Flat Rock Lake Park April 7-11 for Annual Kerrville Chili & BBQ Classic Easter Fest 30 6 1.3 Discuss allowing Master Gardener Program to place 7 a greenhouse next to Extension Office 33 8 1.6 Request for Commissioners Court to reconsider and approve setting a public hearing on freezing ad 9 valorem property tax values for elderly/disabled 55 10 1.4 Presentation of proposed management of Union Church Building and proposed rental schedule, 11 approve new Board Members and change officers 66 12 1.5 Request for use of Courthouse for Democratic County Convention 85 13 1.9 Discuss the January 7, 2004 offer from Mooney 14 Airplane Corporation to revise and extend lease 89 15 1.7 Discuss whether or not January 2, 2004 is to be considered an Official County Holiday -- 16 1.8 Reduction of registration fees for Rabies Drive, 17 February 7, 2004 through February 21, 2004 105 18 1.12 Discuss findings/status of construction pad on Should Bee Road 109 19 1.13 Discuss findings/status of development at the end 20 of Cardinal Hill Road 127 21 1.14 Discuss findings/status of operation of caliche pit in Wood Trails Subdivision 131 22 1.15 Discuss progress of efforts to remove solid waste 23 in Wood Trails Subdivision 135 24 1.10 Consider the contingencies for a cul-de-sac in Court Order 28133, approve the completion of same 142 25 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) January 26, 2004 2 PAGE 1.11 Award annual bids for Road & Bridge materials 144 3 1.16 Approve Change Order #5 to compensate Compton 4 Construction 148 5 1.17 Approve Kerr County Information/Technology Policies 152 6 1.18 Approve Resolution prohibiting the use of excessive force by law enforcement agencies 158 7 1.19 Discuss Kerr County Water Availability Requirements 163 8 1.20 Discuss Kerr County Manufactured Home Rental 9 Communities Order 173 10 1.21 Approval of county-sponsored contract between Kerr County and Region J, authorize County Judge to sign 180 11 1.22 Discuss status of Burn Ban 182 12 1.23 Discuss proposals submitted, approval of tele- 13 communications equipment lease or purchase for Extension Office, authorize County Judge to sign 186 14 1.24 Discuss Liaison/Committee Assignments of 15 Commissioners Court Members for 2004 194 16 4.1 Pay Bills 201 17 4.2 Budget Amendments 205 4.3 Late Bills --- 18 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 208 19 3.1 Action required on Executive Session matters 211 20 --- Adjourned 217 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 On Monday, January 26, 2004, at 9:00 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and 7 gentlemen. It's just a bit after 9:00 now, and I'll call to 8 order the special Commissioners Court meeting posted for 9 this date, Monday, January 26th, 2004, at 9 a.m. 10 Commissioner Letz, I believe the honors go to you. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would everyone please 12 stand for a moment of prayer, please? 13 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. At this time, if 15 there's any member of the public that wishes to express some 16 thoughts to the Court on matters relating to something that 17 is not a listed agenda item, I want them to feel free to 18 come forward at this time. If there's any member of the 19 public that wants to speak to the Court about any matter 20 that's not listed on the agenda, this is your opportunity. 21 We would be most happy for you to come forward at this time 22 and tell us what's on your mind. Seeing no one moving 23 towards the front, I assume that what you folks may have to 24 say later relates to an agenda item, so we'll move on. 25 Commissioner Letz, what have you got for us this morning? 1-26-04 5 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd just like to thank 2 everyone that helped with the stock show last week. There 3 were, I believe, over 1,100 entries, which shows ag is still 4 a pretty active part of our community. I don't know what 5 the total sale amount was, but by the number of bidders 6 there, it was up in the thousands upon thousands of dollars. 7 Appreciate all those businesses that contributed to the 8 youth of the community, and I just want to thank everybody 9 again. I know that Roy's back in the back and had a big 10 part of it, and it's his first stock show as our new County 11 Extension Agent. I'm sure he got a -- saw how it was done 12 down here. Busy. Anyway, that's all I have today. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Nicholson? 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The rains were 15 really good, and people in my part of the county were glad 16 to have an opportunity to burn. That's -- more and more, I 17 learn how important that is to people, to be able to 18 occasionally burn for purposes of getting rid of cedar 19 piles, as well as for agricultural purposes. On that same 20 -- on that subject, there was a tragic accident, I think you 21 know, yesterday in Ingram where a man was burned trying to 22 burn a cedar pile and using gasoline. And I don't know 23 about you; I've done that before, and I won't do it again. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't -- I was not 25 aware of that. 1-26-04 6 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: No. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner 1? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I just 5 wanted to remind the Commissioners Court that in the very 6 near future, our good friend, Ms. Sovil, will be departing 7 county employment, and -- I think that is true. At least 8 that's what she says. And we need to get on the ball of 9 her -- about her replacement; job description, advertising, 10 and how we're going to handle that and all those things. 11 And I just want to use this as a reminder that it's time for 12 us to get on that. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are you going to put it 14 on our next agenda, Commissioner? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I will. I will, if 16 it's -- if everybody thinks that it's time to start moving 17 on it. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I just quarrel with 19 one thing you said; I don't think she can be replaced. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that is so true. 21 That is so true; I agree with that. Bad choice of words. 22 That's all. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think I'm going to 25 hop in on the tail end of Commissioner Letz' comments about 1-26-04 7 1 the stock show. It's really an interesting three- or 2 four-day event, of course, the county show and the other -- 3 and the area shows leading up to that, but what is always 4 gratifying to me is to see all those young people from ages 5 5 and 6 up through high school-age who work so hard and so 6 diligently to prepare an animal for the stock show and to 7 make it happen. And it's good to see that -- that we are 8 capable of putting on a show like that, that -- to their 9 benefit. I also would like to say that, notwithstanding 10 Commissioner Nicholson's and my two-day efforts at 11 announcing the swine show -- and I'm going to tell you, 12 Honorable Judge, we did one hell of a good job doing that, 13 despite the equipment failures that we experienced 14 repeatedly out there. As you know, it's one thing for the 15 thing to cut in and out on my voice or Commissioner 16 Nicholson's voice, but when you got a high-priced judge in 17 the middle and he's going over the animals and he's telling 18 the -- the audience exactly what he sees and why he sees it 19 and all the good things about -- about that particular class 20 of animals he's judging, and then lending his experience to 21 our show and telling us some things that maybe we would need 22 to consider in the interim between now and next one, and 23 have the public address system cut out about 46 times during 24 his talk is a little bad. And I made the comment at the 25 stock show that, if this Commissioner has anything to do 1-26-04 8 1 with it -- and I'm saying it for your benefit, too -- there 2 will be a new public address system in that building before 3 that stock show convenes next year. We'll find the money 4 someplace to make it happen. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If there's a building. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If there's a 7 building. If there's a tent, we'll do what we need to do in 8 a tent. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, it's not 10 much better at the other side, on the other barn. There was 11 multiple failures over there as well. And it was set up 12 originally to have three microphones, so the judges could -- 13 you know, 'cause there's three rings going on at the same 14 time. The feedback prevented that from happening, so we 15 were basically passing mics between -- we had two working 16 mics between the three arenas. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can I expect, then, 18 you'll join me in our efforts to get a new public address 19 system? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's about time 21 out there. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, sir. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: First and foremost, I would 1-26-04 9 1 like to, on behalf of all the citizens of Kerr County, 2 express the sympathy of all those citizens to the family and 3 friends of P.F.C. Cody Orr, a young soldier from this county 4 who gave his life for his country in Iraq. I would ask that 5 all of you remember him and his family, and be with the 6 family and their needs in this time. Lastly, I want to pass 7 on to County employees -- principally, the members of the 8 Maintenance Department and Road and Bridge -- from the stock 9 show people, their thanks and accolades for all of the kind 10 work that County employees did at the stock show this -- I 11 started to say this past weekend. They've been working on 12 it for some period of time now; it wasn't just this past few 13 days. But they did yeoman's work out there, and the stock 14 show people want them to know, particularly the Maintenance 15 and Road and Bridge people and all the other County 16 employees that helped out, they want them to know it, as 17 well as all the citizens of this county to know it. And, 18 so, on their behalf, thank you. Let's move on into the 19 agenda now. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can I make a comment on 21 the end of that? 'Cause there's a County employee that 22 resigned -- it was going to be the first of the year. Mike 23 Smart, who was an integral part of that arena and barn for 24 many, many years, is moving to Houston. He's going to get 25 married; is moving to Houston, and agreed to stay here 1-26-04 10 1 through the stock show because of his -- you know, I guess 2 the need for him to be here for us, and I really want to 3 thank Mike Smart for agreeing to do that. It was a little 4 bit inconvenient for him to stay a little bit longer than he 5 had planned; it shows his commitment to this community, and 6 appreciate what he did in staying through stock show. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I also -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I second that. 9 That's good. Thank you, Jon. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I also appreciate the stock 11 show people, at the beginning of the auction Saturday, when 12 they made particular note of Mike's efforts over many years 13 and recognized him for those efforts. I thought that was a 14 fine thing that they did. Let's move on into the agenda. 15 First item is the introduction of Mr. Christopher M. Avery 16 for a presentation and discussion with Commissioners Court 17 regarding the long-range planning workshop to be held 18 February the 11th of this year, and confirming the date, 19 time, and location. Dr. Avery, thank you for being here 20 with us this morning. 21 MR. AVERY: Thank you. Good to be here. So 22 is the floor mine? 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, indeed. 24 MR. AVERY: Great. I have agreed to 25 facilitate a -- a planning meeting for you all, and what I 1-26-04 11 1 don't know is what you want to get done or how you want to 2 get it done or why, except for what I've read in the 3 newspaper and the very brief conversations I've had with 4 Commissioner Williams. So, I have a few questions, and 5 maybe we can get these answered in five or ten minutes. The 6 first is, if you would share with me simply what instigated 7 this workshop; tell me a little bit of the background about 8 how this has come up. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I think Commissioner Nicholson 10 is the one that brought it to the table, and I'll defer to 11 him to tell you why he brought it. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll say what I had 13 in mind, and it may be the same as or different than some of 14 the other Commissioners. I -- I have a desire to be more 15 strategic in our -- how we use our time and resources, and 16 to focus our energy on critical issues. We've had some 17 problems, and we've had some opportunities to do this, and 18 we need to be a little more systematic and focused about it. 19 MR. AVERY: Okay. So, when you say "focus" 20 and "strategic," you're talking about direction and 21 priorities? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes, sir. 23 MR. AVERY: Are you also talking about time 24 frames? Looking out this far versus this far? 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That, and I would 1-26-04 12 1 hope that we would get so far as to -- we would have an 2 opportunity to allocate resources toward the projects that 3 we think are deserving. 4 MR. AVERY: Okay. So, priorities, time 5 frames, resources allocated. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Avery, if I might 7 add, to follow up with that, part of the -- I think, going 8 back a step further, is what brought this up probably this 9 year is that during the budget process this year, we had a 10 number of items that came up during the process, and they 11 had to basically be tabled because we didn't have any 12 planning in place to be able to put it into the budget. And 13 because of that, it was, I think, felt -- Commissioner 14 Nicholson brought it to the table first -- that we needed to 15 get an idea ahead -- before the budget process begins, which 16 for us begins basically in June, what each Commissioner -- 17 what, kind of, the Commissioners Court wants to work on in 18 the following -- in the next year, and possibly the years 19 beyond that. And we have to get an idea of the cost related 20 to that at that time, 'cause our -- I mean, when you get 21 into our budget, dollars become very, very important, 22 obviously. So, it's kind of to get everything on the table 23 ahead of time, so then we're ready for the budget process 24 when that begins. And I think long-range planning kind of 25 just follows right with that. 1-26-04 13 1 MR. AVERY: Good. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We each have items 3 that -- that are important, and -- important to us and 4 important to Kerr County and important, in particular, to a 5 -- a region or a part of a precinct or whatever. And I 6 think there is value in bringing these things all together. 7 Sometimes one of us will have an idea we've been nurturing 8 for some time, only to find that we may have -- may have 9 sprung something on a colleague that we didn't know we did; 10 that we thought maybe all along that that individual had 11 some understanding or knowledge of what was going through 12 our head. So, I think if we can put these things into some 13 sort of a -- a list, at least identify them for all of our 14 purposes so that -- so that there's not any -- any super 15 surprises down the line in terms of where we'd like to 16 see -- what we'd like to see accomplished, and maybe even 17 some ideas as to how we intend to approach the funding 18 aspects of these things. We have some constraints, as you 19 may or may not know. We cannot obligate a future court in 20 terms of -- of certain things unless it goes through the 21 process of bonding and -- and so forth and so on. And 22 bonding, itself, for -- certain obligations have certain 23 things that we have to adhere to, and rules and regulations. 24 So, I think, you know, if we get the ideas on the table, we 25 attach some significance and priority to them, I think we're 1-26-04 14 1 ahead of the game. 2 MR. AVERY: Good. So, all of you have led a 3 little bit into my second question, which is, what is your 4 desired result or your desired outcome? And I would ask 5 you, both in -- you know, if we really nailed it, your best 6 of all possible results, what would it be? And -- and then, 7 on the other end, what's your minimal acceptable results? 8 It sounds like list of ideas, know each other's thinking, 9 priorities, direction, all the way down to, you know, a fair 10 idea about moving towards resources. Any other comments? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it all boils 12 down to actually setting goals. And I think -- I think that 13 in this -- in this process, we need to set time limits on 14 our goals. We need to have a five-year plan, and then we 15 have to look at the up-and-coming budget, which is for one 16 year. I think in terms of athletics, and I can see -- I 17 mean, you have to have goals. And I see this basketball 18 team in the dressing room that gets fired up and they're 19 excited about going out and they're tearing the doors off 20 the lockers, breaking the benches, and they go out on the 21 floor and the goals are not up. You got to have goals to 22 play the game. And so, in order for us to be an efficient 23 government body, we have to have those goals, five-year as 24 well as one-year. 25 MR. AVERY: Okay. 1-26-04 15 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think another point 2 that -- I mean, we need to have the goals, but I think it 3 needs to be very flexible, because things come up and we 4 change, you know, on a pretty regular basis. Something will 5 happen, like microphones at the Ag Barn. All of a sudden, 6 that's become a higher priority, likely, for this Court. 7 And, you know, even though that may not be a huge 8 expenditure, it's probably going to be a pretty sizable 9 expenditure. So, you have things come up during the year 10 that you have to be able to plug into and have -- you know, 11 so you have -- have to have goals, but you have to be 12 flexible enough to adjust as we go. The other thing that I 13 think is important, and it kind of gets into the application 14 a little bit, is the City of Kerrville and their government. 15 We work with the City on -- very closely on certain areas, 16 such as the airport, library. There's other areas that 17 we're going to start working closer with them; the ETJ, 18 master road plans, and things of that nature. But it's -- 19 there's two totally different forms of government between 20 the City and the County, and it causes a lot of problems in 21 communications. And how to, you know, figure out the best 22 way for to us approach the City is something that we really 23 need to work on, too, which is probably just a goal in 24 itself. 25 MR. AVERY: So, if we were to really nail the 1-26-04 16 1 date for you, what would -- what would we get done? Goals 2 -- one- and five-year goals, right? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 4 MR. AVERY: What else? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me take a crack 6 at that. I would expect that we would -- we would together 7 identify what are the critical issues, and that in that 8 respect, I think some of the -- the things that I think we 9 need to work on may be different than some of the things one 10 of you need to work on. So, we need to get all those issues 11 out on the table first, and then prioritize them; say, "No, 12 we're not going to work on that one, but we will work on 13 these few." Which we need to look -- narrow the list of 14 those deemed to be high-priority by a consensus of this 15 Court. And then I'd like to see us, if we can, on the -- in 16 that meeting, to develop a project plan. Who, what, when, 17 how are we going to work on those few items that we deem 18 high-priority, and with our time. 19 MR. AVERY: What would be your least 20 acceptable outcome, if that's your most? If that's your -- 21 if that's nailing it, what's your minimal acceptable? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Identifying the 23 critical issues. 24 MR. AVERY: Okay, thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we have to 1-26-04 17 1 note that, you know, we have the potential for a wide range 2 of -- of topics. 3 MR. AVERY: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or a range going 5 anywhere from facilities, the care and keeping thereof or 6 construction thereof, through infrastructure, through water 7 resources, the acquisition and maintenance of that and 8 protection of that. So, we have a wide spectrum of things 9 we can -- we can be talking about, and a lot of things can 10 drop in between all of that, and I'd like to see us cover as 11 many of those bases as possible. 12 MR. AVERY: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, a minimum, you 14 know, goal for me would be to understand better what each of 15 the Commissioners want. Because the fact that it's -- you 16 know, I may have an issue that I think is very important, 17 and the fact that it's not on the priority list is not going 18 to mean I'm going to drop it. So -- and I don't think every 19 Commissioner feels the same way about things that are 20 important to their precincts, or possibly something, you 21 know, for whatever reason, that's a very high priority to 22 them. So I think, you know, trying to develop a consensus 23 is great, but the fact that you can't doesn't mean we failed 24 on it, because there's lots of things that, you know, can 25 still proceed. But I think if we can just at least 1-26-04 18 1 understand what each of us are trying to do and want to do, 2 almost like a brainstorming session, to me, would be a 3 positive coming out of a meeting like this. 4 MR. AVERY: Okay. When I do this kind of 5 work, I would often speak with each of you, either 6 collectively or individually, and ask you for specific 7 agenda items. If we were to do that now, I could imagine we 8 could be here a very long time. Do we have an opportunity 9 for me to speak with you, or for working with you by e-mail 10 between now and then, where you could send me individually 11 your agenda items that you'd like to see addressed? Is that 12 appropriate? 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's appropriate if you 15 deal with each of us, but not all of us at once. 16 MR. AVERY: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because of Open Meetings 18 requirements, things like that. I mean, you and I are free 19 to talk all we want, but you can't -- you know, it's got to 20 be just us two. Can't be Dave and I talking to you. 21 MR. AVERY: That's fine. My work ethic is 22 that I represent each of you individually and collectively 23 as a group, so if it works for me to work with each of you 24 individually in preparing an agenda, that's perfect. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Good. 1-26-04 19 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can provide the 2 e-mail addresses for all of us, and you can feel free to do 3 with them as you wish. 4 MR. AVERY: They're out there on the 5 internet. Y'all can't hide; I already got them. 6 (Laughter.) 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're right. 8 MR. AVERY: What do you expect from me as a 9 facilitator most of all? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Keep us on course. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's it. 12 MR. AVERY: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, I'm going to 14 be amazed if we can all show up at the same meeting place at 15 the same time. But -- and then staying on target is going 16 to be the key. 17 MR. AVERY: Okay, good. What else? 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know if 19 you've worked with -- with government before. I know you 20 work with a lot of businesses. And if you haven't, I think 21 you'll find that government is a -- is handicapped by -- by 22 laws, such as the Open Meetings Act, and it's difficult for 23 us to efficiently pursue our goals and objectives. So, I'm 24 expecting that you'll help us be able to do that in this 25 lawful, authorized forum. 1-26-04 20 1 MR. AVERY: As long as you keep me aware of 2 what I can and can't do in those. Good. What else? What 3 else do you expect of me, as a facilitator, to do for you? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I -- I think it also 5 cuts across the -- not just expectations of you, but optimum 6 results. Because of your background and expertise, I would 7 hope that the individuals on the Court and the Court 8 collectively can become more effective at a cooperative 9 effort in dealing with, for example, joint projects with the 10 City, dealing with our own elected officials and employees, 11 dealing with other governmental agencies, constituents, 12 utilizing their input and -- and abilities. Because of your 13 background and expertise, trying to plug in some of this 14 teamwork thing that -- that is at the core of -- of your 15 work. 16 MR. AVERY: I'll do my best. Any issues that 17 I need to be prepared for? Anything that might be in the 18 way of our ability to work together to get things done? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, we're going to 20 surprise you. (Laughter.) One thing I wanted to bring up, 21 though -- it might -- this might and might not happen; I 22 don't know. I still can't see exactly what we're doing. 23 But, as an example, if we want to deal with Road and Bridge 24 issues, we may have our County Engineer there to help us 25 steer through the land mines. If we talk about the Ag Barn 1-26-04 21 1 and the P.A. system, we might have our Facilities Manager 2 there to help steer us in that kind of thing. A support 3 staff may be with us to help us. 4 MR. AVERY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I -- I mean, on 6 that, I'd probably defer to you. Should we bring support 7 staff or not? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Yeah. 9 MR. AVERY: I think it depends how detailed 10 you want to get in decision-making as to whether you need 11 those. I would generally say, for a group like yourselves, 12 to probably not. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think I concur with 14 that. 15 MR. AVERY: That would distract from the 16 primary process that you're asking me to do, which is to 17 help you generate a list of ideas, brainstorm, be creative 18 and innovative, and then wrestle with them in terms of 19 figuring out, you know, what criteria, what values you want 20 to use in making trade-offs between these, and moving to 21 some closure. And if you add a lot of staff, either 22 standing by or on-call to come answer particular questions 23 of this sort, that -- it might get in the way of our ability 24 to do that. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with that, 1-26-04 22 1 and I -- I think we can always work with our staff on a 2 later basis. I don't want to spend an entire day and waste 3 your time and our collective time spending eight to ten 4 hours, or however many hours we're there, figuring out 5 reasons why we can't do something. I'd like to be able to 6 figure out what they are, and reasons -- or examine 7 alternatives as to how we can do things. 8 MR. AVERY: The -- the overall model of -- of 9 how we will work is very simple. You can think of it as 10 a diamond shape, where we start with a process of opening 11 the diamond, and we get wider and wider and wider in 12 thinking about creative ideas and innovative ideas, and then 13 the diamond starts narrowing, and that's a process of trying 14 to decide how you're going to decide. And then the last 15 part, the closure, can be led -- the closure on the other 16 end is when you actually put a stake in the ground and say 17 this or that. And there's a variety of techniques and 18 processes and tools that we'll use for each of those three 19 activities. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. 21 MR. AVERY: So that, hopefully, Commissioner 22 Baldwin, gives you an idea of what we're going to do. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. Very good, 24 thank you. 25 MR. AVERY: That concludes my questions. 1-26-04 23 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't go away, 'cause 2 we got to tell you where we're going to do this. 3 MR. AVERY: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're not going to do 5 it underneath a tent. Commissioner Letz and I thought that 6 this might be a beneficial function to take place in the 7 eastern part of the county, notwithstanding that the west of 8 the county has a -- has a very deep and abiding interest in 9 what we do. But it's not often when we take any meeting of 10 the Court out of the courthouse, so how are we going to -- 11 how are we going to do that? We narrowed down our choice of 12 places to do that to about two, and finally narrowed it down 13 to one. I contacted friends who own and operate the Rocking 14 River Inn and the River Bluff at the Rocking River Inn in 15 beautiful downtown Center Point, and I want to present to 16 you this morning -- before I do, I want to tell you what 17 we're going to do. 18 Betty and Ken Wardlaw have graciously agreed 19 to host our event at their facility. I want to tell you 20 just a little bit about Ken and Betty. They bought a very 21 run-down old facility in Center Point, and when they got 22 ahold of it, you could hardly see it from the road because 23 it had been overgrown and left to deteriorate over the 24 years. There's a historical aspect to this particular 25 property. They have restored it and made it into a 1-26-04 24 1 beautiful bed and breakfast. And, subsequent to that, they 2 have added a festival-type barn on their premises. So, I am 3 -- I have a letter here from Betty and Ken, "Thanks so much 4 for contacting us about the inn for the Commissioners 5 planning session on February 11. We welcome the opportunity 6 to have you here as we discussed. We will provide coffee 7 and muffins in the morning, lunch and coffee and water all 8 day for the six participants, and in addition, we'd like to 9 invite Commissioners' spouses to join them for cocktails in 10 the River Bluff Festival Barn at the end of the day." And 11 they're asking for confirmation, which we'll do this 12 morning. 13 We'll -- this goes on to say they have a 14 large screen for slide or computer presentations, TV in the 15 meeting room that would be good for us to meet with the 16 facilitator. And she's right behind you, Doctor, so you can 17 get a chance to meet her. And so this is where my motion 18 will take us, as to the River Bluff at the Rocking River 19 Inn. Betty Wardlaw, would you please stand up so the Court 20 can see you? And we want to thank you for your willingness 21 to host this event. And we're going to get started at 22 8:30 a.m. on the morning of February 11th with coffee and 23 muffins, and then we're going to go in the session at 9:00. 24 We'll have a break for lunch, and we'll see where the 25 afternoon session takes us. So, without further ado, Judge, 1-26-04 25 1 I would offer a motion that the Court confirm the workshop 2 date for February 11, beginning at 9 a.m. officially, 3 Dr. Avery conducting it, at the Rocking River Inn in Center 4 Point, Texas. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. The 7 Sheriff indicated he had something -- some question. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only question I had, 9 when you made the statement about the support staff and 10 that, and if you're setting priorities, I would hope that 11 there's definitely going to be some contact with the 12 different department heads, like Jannett or Linda or myself; 13 that we may see some -- what could be major expenses, major 14 things come through the county that would be part of that 15 list that they may not be actually aware of at this time. 16 But I think you could have the input from your department 17 heads. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 19 MR. AVERY: I think that's a -- 20 MS. PIEPER: I'm already ahead of you. I put 21 my sticky right over there. 22 MR. AVERY: I think that's a good thing, if 23 you would ask your department heads the same questions I 24 asked you. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We can do that in 1-26-04 26 1 advance. 2 MR. AVERY: Yeah, in advance, absolutely. 3 Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Question. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any -- yes, 6 Commissioner Baldwin? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is going to be a 8 full-blown Commissioners Court meeting there? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: No, sir, workshop. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be a workshop there. 11 Will the court reporter be there and County Clerk's office, 12 et cetera? Do we have authority from the County Attorney in 13 writing that we can do this? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He has said in the 15 past we could take -- we could not take the regular meetings 16 out, but this is a workshop. There will be no actions 17 taken. It is for -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- the purpose of 20 brainstorming. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't get me wrong. I 22 agree -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He has made that 24 statement in this room in the past. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that. 1-26-04 27 1 Could we get it in writing, please? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Subject to that confirmation, 4 you're in support of the motion, I gather? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, absolutely. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, before -- 8 before this is -- we're through with this subject, I want to 9 express, first, my appreciation to Commissioner Williams 10 for -- for lining up a consultant and a place to do it, and 11 I also want to say that I -- I've had the pleasure of 12 working with a lot of consultants, and Dr. Avery's 13 credentials are among the best. We have a number of people 14 in the county who know the -- know the fundamentals of -- of 15 helping us with a program like this, but we're dealing with 16 a really first-class consultant here, and -- and I fully 17 expect that the results of our planning meeting will -- will 18 reflect the quality of the consultant we have. Thank you. 19 MR. AVERY: Thank you, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it is 21 important to add, Commissioner, as well, that both Dr. Avery 22 and the Wardlaws are doing this gratis for the County; there 23 is no charge to the County whatsoever, and so that even 24 makes it better. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A comment going back to 1-26-04 28 1 what the Sheriff mentioned. I think it's important that we 2 get that information. I'm trying to figure out the best 3 way. It might be best to have them e-mail it straight to 4 Dr. Avery. 5 MR. AVERY: I'll send you an e-mail and 6 invite you to do that. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That can be disbursed 8 out. And that way, it's going straight in there, and it's 9 kind of in one spot. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To be -- you know, he can 12 bring it out the way he sees fit. 13 MR. AVERY: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there any other 15 information related to county government that would be 16 helpful to you that -- just on, I guess, organization, or 17 are you familiar enough? 18 MR. AVERY: If you have a printout on things 19 like the bonding issue that you talked about where you can't 20 commit a future court, and anything like that would be 21 helpful to me, but I'm not totally ignorant when it comes to 22 government functioning. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I saw some of the -- 24 Santa Ana is one of the -- City of Santa Ana was one. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe the TAC -- the 1-26-04 29 1 TAC handbook that lists all the enabling legislation under 2 which county government operates, the various categories. 3 It's always an eye-opener, because there are a lot of things 4 people don't know that we can do. There are some things we 5 can't do, which are also listed in there. So, I'll see that 6 you get a copy of that. 7 MR. AVERY: Great. And my assumption with 8 any group I work with is that they're aware, usually, of 9 their own -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 11 MR. AVERY: -- limitations, rules, 12 bureaucratic procedures and other things in their way or -- 13 or pushing them along, and I rely on all of your minds in 14 that way. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 16 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 17 your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Dr. Avery, Ms. Wardlaw, we 22 thank you for your contribution -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: -- as we're trying to enhance 25 and further our process, and we really, really appreciate 1-26-04 30 1 your efforts. Thank you. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 3 MR. AVERY: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item on the agenda is 6 consideration and discussion of a request to use Flat Rock 7 Lake Park from Wednesday, April 7th through April 11th of 8 this year for the annual Kerrville Chili and Barbecue 9 Classic Easter Fest. Yes, ma'am? 10 MS. TENERY: It says Morris Tenery on there, 11 but I'm Terri Tenery. And the -- in 2002 it was a group of 12 us decided to keep the Easter Fest alive by forming a 13 nonprofit group called Kerrville Chili and Barbecue Classic. 14 Our goal is to promote chili and barbecue and fun in the 15 county area. We would like to have our Easter Fest again 16 this year. This will be our third year, if you allow it, at 17 the park. We would like to be able to go in there Wednesday 18 night and start setting up, through Sunday afternoon. 19 Overnight camping is -- is one requisition we would like to 20 ask for. We have many chili cooks and barbecue cooks who 21 come in a day or two early so that they can get prepared. 22 We're going to again have chili and barbecue, and a big 23 Easter egg hunt, and we're hoping to have some other vendors 24 with food, games for children. Some of the other things 25 we'd like to -- we're hoping to get is either a car show or 1-26-04 31 1 a motorcycle show. We're not talking about a rally so much 2 as just bringing them out and letting people look at them. 3 That depends on whether or not it rains. If it rains, the 4 car people don't come out. Anyway, we'd like to ask the 5 Court's permission to hold this event again this year. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Overnight parking for 7 campers would be for the event participants, not the public 8 at large? 9 MS. TENERY: That's correct. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I would move 11 that we -- the Court authorize the use of Flat Rock Lake 12 Park from Wednesday, April 7, through April 11th, for the 13 annual Kerrville Chili and Barbecue Classic Easter Fest, as 14 outlined by Ms. Tenery. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll second that 16 motion. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 18 question or discussion? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. I'm sorry, 20 question. The motion is from what date to what date? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 7 through 11. Is 22 that what you asked for? 23 MS. TENERY: I believe it was. Wednesday, 24 April 7th, I believe it is, through Sunday, April 11th. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And 7 -- 7 is just for 1-26-04 32 1 you folks to go in? 2 MS. TENERY: Right, we'll be going in 3 Wednesday after work to start setting up the tents, or where 4 -- placing the tents and getting our parking lines drawn. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is the party starting 6 Wednesday night? 7 MS. TENERY: No, it starts about Thursday or 8 Friday. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You don't want to be 11 late. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't want to be 13 there too early. 14 MS. TENERY: We'd also like to have y'all -- 15 I don't know if it would be a problem, but we would like to 16 have y'all be judges on some of these events for barbecue 17 and chili. And I believe Mr. Baldwin has been at a chili 18 cook-off or two before. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've judged a few, 20 and -- as you can see. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: A willing participant, it 22 appears. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I will be unable to 24 attend this year, thank you. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: May I have permission 1-26-04 33 1 to take your place? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You do. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 4 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 5 your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Thank you 10 very much, Ms. Tenery. 11 MS. TENERY: Thank you. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item on the agenda is 13 consideration and discussion of allowing the Master Gardener 14 Program, sponsored by the Texas Cooperative Extension 15 Service, place a greenhouse adjacent to the Extension Office 16 as part of their program. We have our County Extension 17 Agent, Mr. Roy Walston, with us today. 18 MR. WALSTON: Thank you, Judge and 19 Commissioners. I want to first start off by thanking each 20 one of you for being out and helping and supporting the 21 youth of Kerr County in the Hill Country district show. I 22 mean, y'all put in a lot of hours, and -- and I can honestly 23 say that this is the most support I've ever seen from the 24 Commissioners Court, so I appreciate that. To answer 25 Commissioner Letz' question on the sale, from what I 1-26-04 34 1 understand, the sale total after the sale -- immediately 2 after the sale was $558,000 for the 349 youth that sold. 3 So, that, I think, is -- far exceeds what they've done in 4 the past. And this doesn't include any add-ons, and there 5 will be several add-ons to go to that, so we could be 6 pushing up 575,000 to 600,000. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The newspaper only 8 reported the reserve champion -- what the reserve did, the 9 champions. 10 MR. WALSTON: The champion county steer sold 11 for $8,500. So, the county kids and the district kids, they 12 all -- it was really -- the sale held up all the way 13 through. And that's -- I heard several people say, you know 14 they're just not getting their money spent, so that's why I 15 expect there to be a lot of add-ons later on, to try to take 16 care of that. And, to give you just a rough estimate that I 17 feel fairly comfortable with -- it was kind of funny. Bob 18 Dittmar -- I guess this was Friday morning; we got together 19 and -- and he said, you know, I'd like to know how much 20 money is actually spent in this county for this sale -- or 21 during the three days. And I said, "Well, it's funny; I was 22 thinking that on the way into town this morning." And, to 23 just give a kind of rough estimate as to the total number of 24 individuals coming from out-of-county -- as you had 25 mentioned, 1,100 exhibitors. Some of those are in-county, 1-26-04 35 1 some out-of-county. I estimated close to half a million 2 dollars in revenues were spent here in the county through 3 businesses over the three days, and that's not including 4 guests and grandmas and grandpas that are coming in. So, 5 that kind of gives you an idea. I can tell you the 6 businesses -- the restaurants and motels were -- were 7 packed. So, that's just to kind of bring you up to speed on 8 that. And I -- again, I appreciate all y'all's support, and 9 all the hundreds of volunteers. It -- it ran faster this 10 year than I think it has in numerous years, and that's 11 mainly thanks to those support -- volunteer staff that have 12 done it so long and know how -- what they're doing and how 13 they're doing it. So, it was really a nice show that I 14 enjoyed as well. 15 To get to our agenda item, we've got the 16 Master Gardener's greenhouse project proposal, and I hope 17 each one of you have a copy of this and have had an 18 opportunity to go over it. Thanks to our master gardener 19 support staff, John Coleman and Tony Passini have helped to 20 put this program -- put this proposal together and get some 21 numbers that we could feel comfortable with. And that is a 22 greenhouse that we've got -- we've talked to the company, 23 and this is -- this is pretty well set in stone. The master 24 gardeners have generated funds from volunteers of $2,700, 25 and this is funds that they have donated from individual 1-26-04 36 1 master gardeners. Currently, our county master gardeners 2 have -- we have 50 master gardeners in the county. We have 3 a class coming on currently of 23, and the 50 that we have 4 now -- right now generate about 3,000 hours of master 5 volunteer hours towards the citizens here in Kerr County. 6 What they would like to do is have this greenhouse to help 7 and train their classes, as well as to use for -- for a 8 youth training for 4-H, junior master gardener groups, 9 elementary schools, to see some propagation and to learn 10 about plant growth and development. 11 The plan will come together through basically 12 two phases. We won't finish it all after the first phase. 13 The first phase will include the structure, including a 14 matting floor, a cold frame, which, if you'll look on -- in 15 your addendums there, it's got a picture of it. A cold 16 frame structure with side walls, two polyethylene shade 17 cloth coverings with some interior benches. These will help 18 support the plants and at a workable height. The electrical 19 installation will include an inflation pump and a fan, which 20 will provide a layer for the polyethylene coverings over the 21 greenhouse. The lighting will include four 8-foot 22 florescent lamps which will be installed along with a heater 23 fan, and heating will be with a propane heater. The heating 24 will be -- we've got -- we've contacted the gas companies, 25 and they're going to be setting up the propane and the 1-26-04 37 1 supply tanks. We found out the distances and everything as 2 far as where we can put that. The master gardeners will -- 3 will fund that portion of it. That's something that they 4 can -- they feel like they can take care of that part of it. 5 Where we're asking for the Commissioners' 6 support is basically through the electrical maintenance and 7 electrical support of the -- of the facility. We've 8 estimated that to be around $837.53 a year, which is a 9 maximum. That's running it 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 10 whether it be electric or whether it be heating or cooling. 11 That won't ever happen. It's not -- it won't be necessary, 12 but we wanted to know the actual maximum, and so that would 13 come into an additional $70. And the reason they're wanting 14 to do that is so they don't have to set an extra meter 15 strictly for just that greenhouse for the master gardeners. 16 And, like I say, with the weather here, it'll take us 17 probably a year to figure out kind of what that will 18 actually be, but we don't see that -- that could probably 19 cut in half. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you a 21 question. If you don't have a separate meter, how do we 22 know what is -- 23 MR. WALSTON: What it's going to be? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 25 MR. WALSTON: Unless we can -- just by going 1-26-04 38 1 off of our previous -- previous expenses and bills from what 2 we've done in the past. And I would guess our office is 3 fairly consistent. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Help me with the 5 geographics here. I can't tell exactly -- I see fences and 6 I see -- 7 MR. WALSTON: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- Extension 9 buildings, but -- 10 MR. WALSTON: Okay. There's a lot there on 11 the -- and I -- my directions, when I get out there, 12 somewhat get turned around. And I'm guessing on the east 13 side, the -- the Highway 27 going to Center Point is on the 14 right side there. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that where it says 16 "Master Gardeners" at the bottom of this page? 17 MR. WALSTON: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would be Highway 19 27? 20 MR. WALSTON: Well, the right -- to the right 21 is on the -- is the Highway 27. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, it looks to me 23 like the greenhouse is set in the -- where the little yard 24 is for -- 25 MR. WALSTON: Yes. 1-26-04 39 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- for the -- 2 MR. WALSTON: There's a tree and there's a 3 sign there for -- the horse project sign. We'll move it 4 down. But it's -- it's sitting kind of in the corner 5 between Highway 27 and the Extension Office and the arts -- 6 the arts fence. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, it's sitting up 8 next to the Arts and Crafts fence? 9 MR. WALSTON: Yes, sir, it's 8 feet off of 10 the arts fence. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 12 MR. WALSTON: And 8 feet off the highway 13 fence. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I see. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So, it's 16 nearer the highway? 17 MR. WALSTON: It's nearer the highway. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So, Highway 27 19 is on the topside of this page? 20 MR. WALSTON: It's on the right side of the 21 page. Highway 27 is on the right side. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's kind of in between 23 the building and the highway. 24 MR. WALSTON: Yeah. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got you, okay. 1-26-04 40 1 MR. WALSTON: It's between the Extension 2 building and the highway. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got it, okay. 4 MR. WALSTON: And we had to -- we had to -- 5 the propane tank has to be 10 feet from any structure, and 6 so it will be between the Extension Office and the arts 7 fence; there's 10 there. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a couple 9 questions. Who's paying for this? 10 MR. WALSTON: The Master Gardeners are paying 11 for the structure. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who's paying for the 13 installation? They too? 14 MR. WALSTON: They too. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 16 MR. WALSTON: That's including the 17 installation. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: The only thing you're asking 19 the Court to be responsible for is electricity on an ongoing 20 basis? 21 MR. WALSTON: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What is the 23 relationship between the Kerr County Master Gardeners and 24 the Texas Cooperative Extension? Is this a part of it? 25 MR. WALSTON: It's a part of our -- it's a 1-26-04 41 1 part of our volunteer group. We've got our -- our master 2 volunteer program is -- is a support program of the -- of 3 the County Agents across the county, and we provide them 4 with -- with training, along with resources, materials, some 5 office space, computers, phones, and they help us by coming 6 in and answering questions from people across the county on 7 horticultural questions. And so that's -- they're a major 8 part of my -- 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, this request for 10 funding from taxpayers' dollars is from the Texas 11 Cooperative Extension? 12 MR. WALSTON: Yes, sir. Basically, it's 13 going towards Texas Cooperative Extension as master -- 14 Master Gardeners is a part of that. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Roy, if -- if you would, you 16 may not have the facts and figures there with you, but you 17 might give the Court some idea of how that Master Gardener 18 program has grown in the various areas that it serves. 19 MR. WALSTON: As far as statewide? Or just 20 locally? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, both, if you have it. I 22 don't -- county-wide, it's been mushrooming pretty good. 23 MR. WALSTON: If you'd like, I can ask 24 John -- would John like to come up? He -- John Coleman is 25 our -- is our -- is the one in our office that is a program 1-26-04 42 1 assistant that helps to coordinate a lot of that, and he's 2 been here since -- since the beginning. So, if you'd like 3 for him to visit with you and kind of bring you up to date 4 about our Master Gardeners, I'd be glad to ask him. John? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Tell us a little bit about the 6 growth of that program, Mr. Coleman. 7 MR. COLEMAN: Yeah. The first year, we 8 graduated 15 people. Next year, 23. We've had transfers 9 from other states who are master gardeners into the program, 10 and we have 23 now. As of the end of last year, we put in 11 about 3,000 hours of volunteer effort, principally at the 12 Extension Office in answering questions. We've also 13 developed a -- the garden around the front of the office 14 there. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I guess on my first 16 question, you're probably the best to ask. On the -- I 17 guess for a -- a benefit to the County as a whole, the 18 taxpayers as a whole, I'd be more inclined to go with the 19 proposal if there was a direct benefit. And one of the 20 things that you mentioned in here, kind of -- or mentioned 21 in the letter was, "provide plans for beautification of Kerr 22 County grounds." If that was a -- more than just a -- one 23 of the things you did -- like, basically, if there was a 24 commitment from the Master Gardeners to provide the annual 25 bedding plants around the courthouse, that would be a -- you 1-26-04 43 1 know, that would offset, to me, the utility. 2 MR. COLEMAN: There is a likelihood that we 3 might be able to do that. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, as I 5 look at it, I see that it is clearly a benefit to the Master 6 Gardener program, which that's -- I think that's a program 7 that has merit; I see benefits to the youth. But I'm a 8 little reluctant to go along with a facility that's going to 9 be pretty much used by master gardeners only. I'm not real 10 in favor of building a greenhouse that's going to be, you 11 know, for a very small group to be able to do projects and 12 things that they want. But if they were on the -- in return 13 for getting the greenhouse and the County agreeing to take 14 the utility bills, if there's, like, a commitment to do -- 15 provide the County with plants, that's -- 16 MR. COLEMAN: Could we respond to that once 17 we have some figures? I have no idea what the cost is or 18 numbers of plants, that sort of thing. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And I don't -- 20 you know, Maintenance probably keeps an idea of that. Maybe 21 we're getting everything donated already; I'm not sure. But 22 I just think that there's a -- you know, that would be a 23 kind of a quid pro quo to have the master gardeners 24 providing plants and the County using -- we're saving money 25 on one side. 1-26-04 44 1 MR. COLEMAN: We'd certainly be very 2 interested in that. I -- we may not be able to do that the 3 first year, 'cause it's bootleg our way along here. Yes? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You mentioned that -- 5 that your group is responsible for the garden in front of 6 the building. Isn't that all native plants and -- 7 MR. COLEMAN: It's intended, you know, to be 8 a xeriscape garden; a low-water, low-maintenance type of 9 garden, and it's principally native plants. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And you -- you all use 11 that, the native plants and the low maintenance issues, as a 12 teaching tool? 13 MR. COLEMAN: Yes, sir. And, basically, the 14 purpose of the greenhouse is a -- is a teaching tool also. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. 16 MR. COLEMAN: Not so much for master 17 gardeners. I would like to see us -- we don't have a 18 capability right now of entertaining an effort from the 19 standpoint of educating the kids. And, you know, kids don't 20 respond to lectures and pictures; they respond to doing 21 things. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 23 MR. COLEMAN: And that's what we would like 24 to have an opportunity to have them do. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. Besides 1-26-04 45 1 that, looking at the drawings in here, we can probably have 2 a sheep show in that building. (Laughter.) That may be the 3 answer to our problems, is -- is a greenhouse. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Coleman -- 5 MR. COLEMAN: We'll move out the plants for 6 the courthouse first. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The facilities -- the 8 Quonset hut-shaped facility would be covered in the -- what, 9 heavy polyethylene or whatever? 10 MR. COLEMAN: Two layers, yes, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. What happens 12 if the wind whips it up and tears it up? Who's going to 13 repair it? Who's going to maintain it? 14 MR. COLEMAN: We shall. Master Gardeners 15 will. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it -- my other 18 question is -- this may be more for Roy, or both of you. 19 You know, I don't like the location. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not happy about 21 it either. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's -- you know, 23 we -- we just got through receiving a lot of complaints 24 about having an open material yard, and now we're getting 25 ready to put -- I'm very familiar with greenhouses like 1-26-04 46 1 this. They're not ugly, but they're certainly not 2 attractive, and you see through them and you see stuff, and 3 it kind of is there. Anyway, is there another location that 4 you could -- that -- where we could put this? 5 MR. COLEMAN: Wow. The obvious location 6 where I would really like to have it, however, would 7 interfere with the entranceway to the Arts and Crafts area, 8 which would be on the other side of the building. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10 MR. COLEMAN: And we plan to have a visual 11 screen along the highway there. 12 MR. WALSTON: As far as what's available 13 that's left, I mean, there's not -- like I say, if we go to 14 the other side of -- the other end of the building, we're 15 interfering with some entrance. If we backed it up, you 16 know, we're just kind of limited there. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there a chance -- what 18 about on the -- is there room on the other side of the 19 entrance right-of-way to the arts and crafts, over towards 20 the rodeo arena? 21 MR. WALSTON: There's a fence there now. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A fence there? 23 MR. WALSTON: Yeah. There's not -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's not enough room 25 there? 1-26-04 47 1 MR. WALSTON: Not -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because of utility poles? 3 MR. WALSTON: There's just not quite enough 4 room. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does it have to be 6 in -- in close proximity to the Extension Office? 7 MR. COLEMAN: It would be desirable, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or elsewhere on the 9 ground? 10 MR. WALSTON: That would probably be the 11 best. I mean, that way the people that are -- that are 12 working in the office, answering phones, can also be helping 13 with the -- you know, can be working in the greenhouse as 14 well. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I'm all for it. 16 MR. COLEMAN: We'd certainly entertain the 17 possibility of somewhere else, but we can -- we have not 18 been able to figure out a better place. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm not going to 20 support this, and I want to tell you why. I'm aware that 21 the Master Gardener's program does good work. A close 22 friend of mine is a master gardener, and she's very capable 23 and she enjoys her hobby a lot. This is not a whole lot of 24 money that -- on a yearly basis. It will go on forever. 25 But it violates my principle of not using County taxpayer 1-26-04 48 1 dollars to support something that is of benefit to a very 2 small number of people, so I'm not going to be able to 3 support it. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think the 5 suggestion Commissioner Letz had makes a lot of sense. If 6 there's a quid pro quo that comes out of it; i.e., the 7 bedding plants and other materials that the Facilities and 8 Maintenance Department uses annually -- 9 MR. COLEMAN: Mm-hmm. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- here, as an offset 11 to that expense, I think that it would go down a lot easier. 12 MR. COLEMAN: We would be most interested in 13 that. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we have to 15 get beyond interest, Mr. Coleman. We have to get down to, 16 "We will do that." 17 MR. COLEMAN: I'd be delighted to respond, 18 except I have no appreciation -- my impression is there's 19 not a lot of -- of annuals out around the building, and my 20 first inclination is, sure, we can go ahead and do that, 21 unless there were some hidden somewhere. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Holekamp's in the 23 audience. He can provide you pretty quickly with the number 24 of dollars that he expends annually on flowers, shrubs, 25 plants, so forth and so on. 1-26-04 49 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: Approximately $600 to $700 a 2 year. 3 MR. COLEMAN: Is that shrubs and bedding 4 plants? 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 6 MR. COLEMAN: Okay. Certainly, the bedding 7 plant portion of that, we can certainly do. 8 MR. WALSTON: The one thing I want to impress 9 as much as anything is the amount of -- the need for 10 training in these educational -- the number of contacts 11 these master volunteers make through the telephone calls 12 through our office, you know, and it's critical that the 13 information that we provide is correct. And so, through 14 this training, that's part of what we're trying to do, is -- 15 is training these master gardeners to provide education and 16 provide information to the people here in Kerr County. And 17 a lot of them need, you know, this type of training. So, 18 we're -- we're providing it to these 50 people, but those 50 19 people are basically providing it for hundreds and thousands 20 of others. So, yes, it's -- it's 50 to 75 people that we're 21 working with, but the information that they're providing to 22 these others is -- is critical, and it -- you know, we -- 23 we're trying to give them the best training that we can. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I mean, 25 and it goes back to -- I don't want to get into a 1-26-04 50 1 disagreement with Commissioner Nicholson; I guess he has had 2 a reluctance to support that Extension Office in other areas 3 as well. I don't think it's a -- a real small area, that 4 office. I think it really supports the entire community. I 5 think it's a very important part of local government. I 6 think it is statewide, and I think we've been very fortunate 7 to have a very strong Extension Office here. The fact that 8 this -- I mean, if you start nitpicking, this may be the 9 Master Gardeners; well, then, there's other things that work 10 with -- you know under -- or families that -- economic needs 11 and family rearing and things like that. So, I mean, if you 12 take the whole Extension Office as a whole, there's very few 13 people in this county that are not affected by them 14 directly. So, you know, I think it's not fair to say, well, 15 these are master gardeners, so we're not going to do this. 16 You have to look at who else uses that office. To me, 17 that's not really an issue. To me, the issue is making sure 18 that -- you know, that it's -- that we get a real benefit 19 from it. I think we will, from what -- I think 20 Mr. Coleman's done a great job with the Master Gardener's 21 program. I would like a different location, if at all 22 possible. And, you know, there may be a possibility -- it's 23 not that big of a building -- of moving it behind and 24 talking to the Arts and Crafts Foundation, moving it in that 25 enclosed area and, you know, some kind of relationship 1-26-04 51 1 there. So, I'm -- you know, I'm prepared to go forward with 2 it, but I'm not really prepared to say this is the location 3 until we've really exhausted every other location, 'cause I 4 think it is -- it's not preferable to put between the 5 building and the highway. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Walston, but for the 7 assistance from the Master Gardeners and their volunteers, 8 the function that they perform in your office, would you or 9 your staff be able to respond to the inquires on 10 horticulture questions that you get directed to your office? 11 MR. WALSTON: Not in a timely manner. I 12 mean -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You can get to them, but it 14 would be way on down the line? 15 MR. WALSTON: It may be weeks. Just like the 16 last week, I wouldn't be able to answer any questions until 17 this next week. And I myself am tied up with doing a lot of 18 other things that I can't be -- it would be way past the -- 19 the immediate contact. 20 MR. COLEMAN: Often in the past, I should say 21 that questions on horticulture were directed to some of the 22 garden centers in town directly. 23 MR. WALSTON: 'Cause they can get that 24 immediate contact. That's what they need. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think I -- I 1-26-04 52 1 concur with -- I don't think it; I know I concur with what 2 Commissioner Letz is saying. I would support it, but I want 3 to support it after I know that this is the best location 4 for the -- the greenhouse; that there's not a better 5 location on the grounds. We've got 65 acres out there, and 6 that there is and will be a quid pro quo in terms of a 7 program supporting our own horticultural needs here, flower 8 needs, shrub needs and so forth. Not just it's a nice idea, 9 but that it will happen as a quid pro quo. Then I would be 10 prepared to vote on it. 11 MR. WALSTON: I think that would require some 12 information, again, to find out what -- how much y'all are 13 going to be needing, and if that's the case, the size of our 14 greenhouse. And, I mean, there may be some other 15 adjustments that we may not -- you know, I would say for 16 $600, we could probably -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the reason I 18 think you ought to put it aside till another meeting. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Is anyone prepared to offer a 20 motion on the matter at this point? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I am, but I know I 22 won't get a second. But I think their concern is, we don't 23 want people driving down the highway looking at your 24 greenhouse, number one. Number two, it's going to take you 25 a day to get with Mr. Holekamp to find out how many plants 1-26-04 53 1 we're talking about. Why don't y'all do that and come back 2 at the next meeting? 3 MR. COLEMAN: Okay. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I think if you'll look at 5 those two areas, location and -- and the offset benefit to 6 Kerr County, come up with something more definite there, 7 why, that will be a matter that we look at again in the 8 future. We thank you. 9 MR. COLEMAN: Who are the parties we should 10 consult with with regards to location? Glenn? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, Glenn. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, primarily. Absolutely, 13 yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glenn, you're the person 15 for them -- you're the point person. 16 MR. WALSTON: Location-wise. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: Location. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll be glad to come out 19 there and either meet with you, Mr. Coleman, or Mr. Walston. 20 MR. COLEMAN: An alternate location for the 21 greenhouse. 22 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, you know, like you said, 23 there's 65 acres out there. But they're in close proximity 24 to the areas where they're going to be -- it's very limited, 25 unless you can talk the Arts and Crafts Fair into moving 1-26-04 54 1 their yard somewhat. It would make it a little bit easier. 2 The -- the positive about the particular location they have 3 now, it kind of screens that -- the commodes that are 4 sitting out there. (Laughter.) And I'm not sure that the 5 greenhouse isn't more attractive than those surplus 6 commodes. That's personal opinion. So, I kind of approved 7 in my mind of the location, 'cause they've assured me that 8 they were going to keep it very attractive around that 9 greenhouse. They were not going to let it look trashy. So, 10 you know, I -- I would encourage the Court not to say no 11 completely to the site until we have exhausted the other 12 areas. And I'll be glad to meet with anybody, and then 13 maybe -- 14 MR. COLEMAN: Again, I could go ahead and put 15 a visual screen between the greenhouse and the -- and the 16 road if that's a consideration. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Why don't we bring it 18 back next meeting? I'll be glad to come out there and look; 19 we can talk to the Arts and Crafts and see if they have any 20 willingness to -- you know, to use their -- some of their 21 space. And -- 22 MR. COLEMAN: Good. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's funny how 24 different people see things differently. I think a 25 greenhouse is more attractive than a fence, personally. And 1-26-04 55 1 I think I just found my second back there. Won't work in 2 here, though. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pansies in the 4 commodes, Glenn. Ever think about that? 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: That's a possibility. 6 MR. WALSTON: Well, working with these 7 people, I can promise you it will be neat and it'll be 8 attractive. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good. 10 MR. COLEMAN: Thank you. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. We have a timed 12 item, so we will move on to that item; it was set for 13 10 o'clock. Item 6 on the agenda, consideration and 14 discussion of a request from Mr. Charlie Eller for the 15 Commissioners Court to reconsider, approve the setting of a 16 public hearing on the subject of authorizing the freezing of 17 ad valorem property tax values on the residential property 18 owners who are elderly or disabled beginning in 2004. 19 MR. EVANS: When will you get to 1.4 and 1.5? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: We've got timed items on the 21 agenda, and if this takes up until 10:30, we will take the 22 10:30 item, or at least that would be my intention, and then 23 we would come back to the items in the order that they are. 24 But we're going to take the timed items as closely to the 25 time that they're specified for. Mr. Eller? 1-26-04 56 1 MR. ELLER: Judge, Commissioners, I won't be 2 long. My name's Charlie Eller. My address is still in 3 doubt, but I still live in Greenwood Forest, anyway. In 4 regards to the adoption of the amendment to freeze county 5 taxes, I want to thank Commissioner Nicholson for making a 6 motion to adopt that, even though he didn't get a second. I 7 thank you. The figures show an overwhelming majority, about 8 87 percent of the people who cared enough to vote, voted to 9 approve this amendment in Kerr County. To fail to implement 10 the amendment is to assume the voters didn't know what they 11 were voting for, and I do not believe that anyone should 12 assume that lack of intelligence on the part of people who 13 cared enough to vote. The amendment will be implemented in 14 Kerr County. It will be through the action of this court or 15 through a petition drive and another election where the 16 voters can again approve the amendment. I ask you to spare 17 the people the effort of a petition drive, and the 18 inconvenience and the $10,000 cost of another election to 19 decide a matter they've already approved. Thank you. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Does anybody have any 21 questions for Mr. Eller? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have any 23 questions, but I have a comment. I mean, and this is -- you 24 know, probably -- we could probably discuss it till we're 25 blue in the face and not totally agree on this point, but to 1-26-04 57 1 me, the election was to get it on the -- to get it from 2 Austin to the counties to make the thing -- the decision. I 3 don't see that the election was a vote to do it. But, you 4 know, that's just the way I read the -- the initiative. It 5 says permit counties to do it; doesn't say counties to do 6 it. If the legislation had meant that constitutional 7 amendment to be the final say, they would have worded it as 8 such, but that's neither here nor there. I think there is 9 clearly an interest in Kerr County. And my reason 10 previously for not seconding the motion was really a lack of 11 information that I asked for at that last meeting, and I 12 still haven't received, as to what the impact to the County 13 is. That being said, you know, I don't have any problems 14 going forward with a public hearing, but until have I been 15 provided the information as to what the impact is to the 16 taxpayers, I'm still not going to go, you know, the next 17 step to vote for it, because I think the public needs to be 18 aware of that. But, from a standpoint of setting a public 19 hearing, we're past the holiday season; I don't have any 20 problem with doing a public hearing to try to get some 21 public dialogue. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My question to 23 Charlie -- and you -- you made my point there in your 24 talk -- is when it came up before, I felt -- personally, I 25 felt like are we sure that the public understood what they 1-26-04 58 1 approved? Are we sure that the public understands the 2 impact that it's going to have financially on the county? 3 And -- and I had hopes of us having some kind of huge 4 meeting, or we individually go out and visit with folks in 5 smaller meetings to maybe educate and help everyone 6 understand what -- what the impact is going to be. But 7 that's been about a month ago, and I've -- I've given it 8 considerable thought, and it's really not my place to 9 question whether you understand it or not. I'm going to 10 assume that everyone that voted for this issue understood 11 clearly what the financial impact is going to be on the 12 county, so I am prepared today to second and vote for the 13 issue. 14 MR. ELLER: Thank you, Commissioner. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm not asking 16 you for "thank you," believe me. 17 MR. ELLER: I know. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: May I make a comment? 19 MR. ELLER: But I don't believe that the 20 people voted for something and expected their County 21 Commissioners to go vote against it, and they support the 22 court decision. I just -- I just -- that doesn't gel with 23 me. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think the important 25 thing is for this Court to know -- not to set a public 1-26-04 59 1 hearing. We can set a public hearing; we do them all the 2 time, and certainly this is important to set a public 3 hearing on. Because if people are as interested as you say, 4 not only those who support your point of view -- and I would 5 be in that same category, so I understand where you're 6 coming from -- but the impact to the county in terms of its 7 revenue stream moving forward, we need to know what that is. 8 And we've asked for more than just ballpark estimates; we 9 need to know that. I've had occasion to talk to other 10 commissioners and judges from surrounding counties, a couple 11 of which have done so -- have enacted it, but they were -- 12 they were unable to tell me what would be the fiscal impact 13 going forward. So, I think it's reasonable for us to know 14 what the fiscal impact is moving forward when it's enacted, 15 because if those same dollars are needed to finance the 16 business of Kerr County from that day forward, somebody has 17 to pick up the tab, and we need to know what we're asking 18 the remainder of the voters to pick up the tab for. That's 19 part of the public hearing. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, just to -- I 21 mean, to say it clearly, this -- and, you know, if the 22 public wants it, we can do it, but it's a tax increase for 23 every other citizen in the county, or it's a reduction in 24 services. And knowing Mr. Eller, he'd probably go for the 25 reduction in services, possibly. But -- 1-26-04 60 1 MR. ELLER: We got a few surplus. But -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, anyway, that's 3 just -- 4 MR. ELLER: -- you can say exactly what's 5 been said here about the other 31 amendments. But, in 6 effect, people know what they're voting for. Let me leave 7 you on a light note. I don't mean to insult you. But if 8 the people who did not vote were against you going into 9 office, would you make that assumption? Or would you make 10 the assumption they were against you being elected? There's 11 only but 15 percent put you in here. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's true. 13 MR. ELLER: I think they knew what they were 14 doing. Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Eller. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you, Mr. Eller. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The agenda item, as framed, 18 requests that the Court approve setting a public hearing on 19 the subject of putting this tax freeze into place. And, you 20 know, debate is healthy. We need to give all sides an 21 opportunity to be heard, and a public hearing, I think, is 22 the place for that to occur. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: After everyone has notice 25 that -- what the subject is, and they can come prepared 1-26-04 61 1 with -- with their arguments, their documentation, their 2 facts and figures and data as they so choose. But debate's 3 healthy; that's what we ought to have. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And it may give us the 5 opportunity to be prepared to present actual impact numbers. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I would hope that some of 7 those that may -- that may step forward on the issue would 8 have that -- that homework done also. I think -- I think 9 that's part of the debate, really. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, though, that -- 11 I mean, the county government has that information. We have 12 to pretty much get the information. I mean, the average 13 citizen -- and I think we can ask the Tax Assessor to come 14 up with the best -- she's the keeper of that information, 15 and certainly, I guess, the public can go ask her to do it, 16 but I think it would be helpful if she would make it 17 available, because, I mean, it's something that, you know, 18 everyone just doesn't have at their -- at the home. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All you need do is ask. She's 20 responded every time I've asked for information. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, what's the date of 22 the public hearing? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I asked, I believe, on 24 December 8th, and I haven't seen anything yet, but -- 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to make a 1-26-04 62 1 motion. Ms. Sovil, what's the time requirements for notice 2 of a public hearing? 3 MS. SOVIL: Two weeks, generally. Fourteen 4 days prior to the meeting. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to make a 6 motion that the Commissioners Court approve the setting of a 7 public hearing at 10 a.m. on Monday, February 9th, on the 8 subject of authorizing the freezing of ad valorem property 9 tax values on the residential property owners who are 10 elderly or disabled beginning in 2004. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second -- oops. Wait 12 a minute. Beginning in 2004? '5? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have to give refunds, 14 then. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm asking the 16 question. Is it '4 or '5? 17 MS. RECTOR: You would establish the freeze 18 in '4, which would freeze '05. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, that's what I 20 thought. That's what I would -- 21 MS. RECTOR: But also, it's not values, it's 22 taxes. It doesn't freeze values. It freezes the tax 23 amount, the dollar amount. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's real 25 important we get this motion worded exactly right, 'cause 1-26-04 63 1 we're doing taxes, and it's got to be exactly right. 2 MR. MOTLEY: Need to say county taxes. 3 MS. RECTOR: Not values. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: County -- county ad 5 valorem property taxes -- well, county taxes? County ad 6 valorem taxes? 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Does the publication have to 9 be, the first one, 14 days -- 10 MS. SOVIL: That's exactly 14 days from 11 today. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The first publication must 13 be -- 14 MS. SOVIL: The -- I don't know on this. 15 You'd have to ask the attorney. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know what -- if 17 it's two weeks, 24 hours, 30 days. I don't know. I have no 18 idea if -- 19 MR. MOTLEY: I think it's -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the times change. 21 MR. MOTLEY: -- mentioned in the 22 constitutional -- in the amendments that we -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't get any backup. 24 MR. MOTLEY: I'll have to check in the 25 amendment and see if it's in there, but I think, normally, 1-26-04 64 1 we would want to give plenty of time. And if it's a month, 2 you know, what we normally give for a long setting is -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 30 days. 4 MR. MOTLEY: I think that would be a safe way 5 to go right now, without doing a bunch of research on it. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, that would put 7 us to the 23rd of February or the 8th of March. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: 23rd of February wouldn't be 9 30 days, would it? 10 MS. SOVIL: No, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: In regards that -- 12 MS. SOVIL: March the 8th is the day before 13 the election, primary election. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That doesn't have any 15 bearing on it. That doesn't have any particular bearing on 16 it. 17 MS. SOVIL: No. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Did I understand you 19 to say that the freeze would be on the 2004 values, but 20 would be on the 2005 taxes? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2004 taxes. 22 MS. RECTOR: No, 2004 tax amount would 23 establish the freeze, but it would not be effective until 24 '05. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, this amendment 1-26-04 65 1 should be changed -- I mean, this resolution should be 2 changed to beginning in 2005? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll revise the 5 motion to approve the setting of a public hearing at 10 a.m. 6 on March 8th on the subject of authorizing the freezing of 7 ad valorem property taxes on the residential property owners 8 who are elderly or disabled beginning in 2005. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 11 further questions or discussion? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. And I'm sure 13 it does -- "disabled." I know the elderly are defined as 65 14 and over. Is there a definition for disabled as well in the 15 tax -- 16 MS. SOVIL: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just out of curiosity. 18 Okay. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 20 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 21 your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. 1-26-04 66 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10 a.m. on the 8th. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: 10 a.m. on March the 8th. 3 Next item is Item 4 on the agenda, presentation of proposed 4 management of Union Church building and proposed rental 5 schedule for the use of the building, approval of new board 6 members and change of officers, and reminder of 2006 being 7 the 150th anniversary of the founding of Kerr County. 8 Mr. Schellhase. 9 MR. SCHELLHASE: Walter Schellhase, 529 Water 10 Street, Kerrville. Judge, Commissioners, as you know, after 11 five long years, we've finished the total restoration of the 12 Union Church building, which is now located on Schreiner 13 campus, which we have a 25-year lease for the site with 14 Schreiner. The management of this building needs to be 15 determined, decided, and approved. The Commission has gone 16 through several approaches to how this should be done. Back 17 in 1999, when we presented the restoration program to the 18 Commissioners Court, we had a utilization program that was 19 proposed to be done by Main Street Program of Kerrville. As 20 you can see in our Number 1 on the recap sheet, after 21 evaluating this, making the determination this probably was 22 not appropriate, we then went to C.V.B., made that 23 evaluation, which is available, but felt that was not 24 appropriate. We also worked a long time with Schreiner 25 University, of which they had made a proposal to us about 1-26-04 67 1 the property management, and later that was kind of 2 misunderstood, or not something that we felt the building 3 should be controlled by. 4 Therefore, we settled -- we felt like Kerr 5 County ought to -- Kerr County Commissioners Court ought to 6 take the responsibility for the management, day-to-day, for 7 running and operating this building, in that Kerr County 8 Historical Commission has no staff, nor budget, or any 9 facilitator in any way in order to take care of this on a 10 time-to-time basis, such as key control, maintenance, 11 overall oversight, and the maintenance of the building after 12 regular use. So, therefore, we're proposing -- recommending 13 that the Union Church building be managed by the same 14 entities that are now taking care of other County 15 properties. Perhaps the Ag Barn or an entity -- whoever 16 that may be that does the rental for the facility -- of that 17 facility control the key and the reservation process for 18 this building. Routine maintenance, such as electrical or 19 air-conditioning, other type yard work, be maintained or 20 carried on by the County, as it is with other County 21 buildings. The cleaning, such as the dusting, the floors 22 and things after general use, be done by either County 23 staff, community service work, prisoners, or others that 24 might be accessible to the County Agent facilities. 25 The County would collect all the fees and pay 1-26-04 68 1 all the costs for the operation of the building, including 2 the utilities and the other simple maintenance -- routine 3 maintenance that might be necessary. It's recommended that 4 the Kerr County Historical Commission remain the oversight 5 committee for the building, from the standpoint of 6 day-to-day observation of what needs to be done or should be 7 done from time to time, and make a recommendation to the 8 Court as required. It is recommended that the County -- the 9 Historical Commission be allowed to use the building on a 10 routine basis, which would be the third Monday of each month 11 from 11:45 to 2:30, at no charge for conducting that county 12 business, and that the Friends of the Historical Commission, 13 which is the fundraising arm for that group, be allowed to 14 use the building on the Monday preceding the Commissioners 15 Court -- the Historical Commission's meeting. 16 With that, we recommend attached -- which we 17 provided a fee schedule for this building which is in line 18 with the methods of which Schreiner University now uses the 19 building, or other facilities. They do not have an hourly 20 rate, of which we felt like was needed, in that there are 21 many, many meetings that take place within the community 22 which short -- are short-term, and a whole day use would not 23 be justified. So, therefore, we submit the schedule as you 24 have attached. In that fee schedule, we're recommending 25 that all school programs, tour programs, and county 1-26-04 69 1 facility -- county organizations be allowed to use the 2 building free; Schreiner University be allowed to use the 3 building free, based on their lease which we have with them, 4 which provides for that use. Nonprofit organizations and 5 501(c)(3) certified organizations be allowed to use it for 6 half of these indicated fees. The fees -- there would be a 7 $100 deposit for anyone in order to get on the calendar to 8 use the facility. Thirty days before the event, the bill 9 must be paid in full; no refunds after that date. If an 10 event's been scheduled long-range, 60 days in advance, then 11 we recommend that the full refund be made in the event the 12 event has to be canceled. With that, we request the 13 approval or amendments or suggestions from the Court as to 14 how this may be done. This has been coordinated with 15 Commissioner Williams on several meetings, of which we've 16 ironed it down to this proposal. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Question. 18 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes, sir? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: You're talking about 20 cancellation on the last item there, 60 days or more before 21 the event, full refund. Within 60, no refund. Is that what 22 you -- is that your intention there? 23 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: It doesn't seem to state that, 25 but I think that's what you said. 1-26-04 70 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Walter -- I'm sorry, 2 go ahead. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: General, the -- what are 4 the, I guess, types of uses that you see for this building? 5 I guess what I'm thinking, the -- a logical use for that 6 facility would be a small wedding. And -- but I also see a 7 small wedding would be a very -- probably a hard use of the 8 facility. And, you know, a lot of time and money went into 9 the renovation. Do you have any guidance as to how you or 10 the Historical Commission feels about what the type of use 11 should be? 12 MR. SCHELLHASE: Well, I'm passing out to you 13 the current schedule. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I see weddings. 15 MR. SCHELLHASE: With regards to the type 16 use, the Republican Women's Club have asked to use the 17 building on January the 30th. March the 9th, the County 18 Clerk has asked for an election polling place. A wedding is 19 scheduled for March 12th; 13th, Schreiner University asked 20 for the building. From April 4th to April the 13th, runoff 21 election by the County Clerk. July, a wedding -- July the 22 29th, a wedding. October 24th, a renewal of vows. So 23 that's some of the indicators of what -- in that it is a 24 County building, I think Commissioner Baldwin made a motion 25 at one time that we hold the meeting out there, and we were 1-26-04 71 1 quickly overruled because of being an off-site court 2 meeting. So, just any number of uses. There's been several 3 others that we've had. The Republican -- the Confederate 4 Women have held a meeting out there. There's been several 5 fundraisers by the Friends of the Commission out there. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you a 7 question. 8 MR. SCHELLHASE: One wedding already. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In this same vein, 10 is -- of course, it's a church; I understand that. 11 MR. SCHELLHASE: It's a church building. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's a church 13 building. Okay, good. That's good. What are your 14 thoughts -- your personal thoughts on religious 15 organizations using that facility? 16 MR. SCHELLHASE: One of the proposals that we 17 had in the original utilization plan for management by the 18 Main Street Program, and we had a proposal by a religious 19 group at Schreiner University to use the building on a 20 regular basis each Wednesday afternoon, of which they had 21 tentatively planned -- pledged $20,000 for the restoration, 22 of which we wholly approved. Since that time, that group 23 has moved on. So, we -- we have no problems with the use of 24 it as a church facility for somebody that wanted to use it 25 for that purpose. 1-26-04 72 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Religious? 2 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yeah, religious. We 3 continue to stress that this is a church building. It was 4 never a church, organize -- organized facility, as such. 5 Because the four groups that met there originally used it as 6 their particular facility at that time, so a particular 7 religious sect was never part of that program. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about something 9 like the Second Order of the Snake Handlers and Poison 10 Drinkers Church of America? 11 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yeah. If they have $200, 12 they get it for the day. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. Okay. Well, 14 what about -- what about the same kind of line of 15 questioning for political parties, functions? 16 MR. SCHELLHASE: I think wholeheartedly, yes, 17 indeed. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree, 'cause I'm 19 going to use it in a couple of weeks to have a town hall 20 meeting with a Commissioner. And, of course, it's free 21 because I'm county. 22 MR. SCHELLHASE: I don't know if you're 23 county or not; we'd have to look more closely. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, I am. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Couple questions 1-26-04 73 1 under Special Users and Fees. You have County, schools, and 2 tours, no charge. That would mean a tour bus that came in 3 and made a stop just to see the facility; is that correct? 4 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And use the facility? 6 MR. SCHELLHASE: Not use the facility, tour 7 the facility. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And use the facility? 9 MR. SCHELLHASE: No, not use. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And use the 11 facility's facilities? 12 MR. SCHELLHASE: Use the facility's 13 facilities? I guess that would be appropriate, yes. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And we would not -- 15 we would not -- 16 MR. SCHELLHASE: There would not be a fee for 17 that. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- charge the tour 19 operator any part of -- anything? 20 MR. SCHELLHASE: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second, we have 22 Schreiner University. Do we have any feel for how often 23 they may desire to use it? 24 MR. SCHELLHASE: The university established 25 the fact that this was going to be considered an off-campus 1-26-04 74 1 facility in the early stages of our negotiation of the 2 lease. The intent was -- and the suggestions made by the 3 alumni director at that time, this would be used for what 4 Schreiner considers off-site activities, such as if a 5 department director wanted to meet off-site with his 6 teachers or professors, they could come to this facility, 7 which would be convenient, local, and be considered 8 off-site. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that's -- that's 10 kind of the quid pro quo for the ground lease which we have 11 with them for 25 years? 12 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just one other 14 quickie, and that has to do with who's doing the booking. 15 You talk about the -- in your overview proposal, talk about 16 the Ag Barn. That booking function is the Facilities and 17 Maintenance Department, and I believe our -- our young lady 18 who handles that is now a resident in the Extension Office. 19 Am I correct, Glenn? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And is there a 22 special phone number for that? 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah, we have that. Booking 24 phone is there. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just so they know. 1-26-04 75 1 JUDGE TINLEY: This, obviously, is going to 2 significantly impact our Facilities Superintendent and his 3 staff, based upon the proposal that -- that's been presented 4 here. And I guess the question, number one, to Mr. Holekamp 5 is, have you had adequate opportunity to review this 6 proposal yourself and with your staff? And, secondly, if 7 you have had adequate opportunity and possibly even 8 discussed it with the -- with the Historical Commission 9 people, what are your thoughts, pro or con or otherwise? 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: I have not seen it or 11 discussed it with anyone. I have some concerns, most 12 definitely with the -- not necessarily -- the booking part 13 of it probably is something that can be done between 8:00 14 and 5:00. But when you start talking about cleaning and 15 sitting there and waiting for the meeting to be over to 16 close the building up, opening it up for a tour and cleaning 17 the bathrooms after 60 people have been -- on a bus have 18 gone through the bathrooms, I will assure you that this is 19 going to require hours and hours of maintenance and 20 custodial work. And -- and I tell you what, is after the -- 21 most meetings are after 5:00. So, I would -- I'm just -- 22 from that, I would assume that we're going to have to have 23 some on-site people there at night, so those are things that 24 I have not looked at; I have not studied. I -- I really 25 need to look at it, and I would -- there, again, the Court 1-26-04 76 1 has the right to do as they wish, but I would really make -- 2 I think there needs to be some numbers plugged into what 3 it's going to take to maintain, and I guess to manage the -- 4 the facility itself. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you currently 6 maintaining it? 7 MR. HOLEKAMP: No, sir. That's why I'm 8 saying I have to study what it's going to impact. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand, but 10 who's cleaning up out there now? 11 MR. SCHELLHASE: What Glenn is saying is 12 100 percent true, because that's now being done by 13 volunteers from the Historical Commission. We go out and 14 mop the floors, pick up the trash, and change the paper in 15 the paper holders and the towels and that sort of thing. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- the County 17 directed -- probably accepted the responsibility to do this 18 when we, you know, accepted the proposal to locate the 19 building on that facility. And I think -- you know, so I 20 see that there's an obligation there that we have to work 21 out something here. But I also recall that the -- I guess 22 the agreement was -- the discussion at the time was this 23 would not cost the taxpayers anything, so we need to be very 24 careful that we can set up a -- a fee structure that is -- 25 that'll cover the cost. And I think, you know, Glenn is the 1-26-04 77 1 one that, you know, really needs to look at that, figure out 2 exactly how much time goes in there. 3 Because -- and I really think he probably 4 needs to -- I hate to defer it, but come back at our next 5 meeting, after we really are sure that the dollars and the 6 numbers are all going to work out, and really look at the 7 idea of these -- I don't know how many tour buses would come 8 in that would want to stop at that facility, and I -- I'm a 9 little hesitant to say they can go in at no cost, because I 10 think they're -- it's a -- clearly, there will be a couple 11 of hours of maintenance personnel, plus the cleaning time if 12 they go in. And if it's raining outside and mud tracks in, 13 I mean, we all know how that would happen. But I think that 14 we have to figure out a way to do this, and I think we just 15 need to, you know, plug in some numbers from the maintenance 16 side and see how that's going to mesh with the fee 17 structure. And, you know, make a decision and accept it, 18 'cause I think we are obligated to do it. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Holekamp? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: The only other comment I'd 21 have is -- is -- and I just listened to the fee structure 22 that Mr. Schellhase went through, and I -- I would imagine 23 it -- just my hunch would be is that once the word gets out 24 that this building is free to use for a lot of these 25 meetings and that sort of thing, it's going to be used very, 1-26-04 78 1 very much. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't see "free" 3 here, except to County and Schreiner and school. I don't 4 see free to the general public. 5 MR. SCHELLHASE: It's not free to the public. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: Well, what I'm talking about 7 is, like, Schreiner College, you -- you made it -- it's free 8 to them; is that correct? 9 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes, sir. 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: Do they have to book it like 11 everybody else? 12 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 13 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think those are the 15 details that we need to work out. 16 MR. HOLEKAMP: I think so. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The booking. I think, 18 you know, we'll just have to work through that part of it. 19 MR. SCHELLHASE: What we're giving you is a 20 starter. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate that. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the other thing 24 that needs to be put into the puzzle -- this is really for 25 Glenn -- is that there will be regular major maintenance of 1-26-04 79 1 that facility, and hopefully not for five years or so, but 2 at some point, it's got to get repainted again; other things 3 are going to have to happen. I think we need to -- in the 4 fee structure, we need to be able to have enough money that 5 they can go into a fund that then can be used back for that 6 building, so that it doesn't come out of our general budget 7 when something has to be done from a -- you know, a major 8 maintenance down the road. And it's a -- just basic 9 planning. We'll need to allow for that as well. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mr. Schellhase, one 11 other question. You're -- you're asking us -- and I'm 12 almost there, ready to agree with you. You're asking us to 13 do the booking, do the maintenance, do the cleaning -- 14 MR. SCHELLHASE: Collect the fees. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Collect fees. That 16 would be part of booking. And then, at the end of that, you 17 said, but we -- the Historical Commission would like to 18 still be in control. Or I don't -- what did I hear you say? 19 MR. SCHELLHASE: What the Historical 20 Commission is recommending is that we remain your oversight, 21 your eyes and ears on the building. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What does that mean 23 exactly? 24 MR. SCHELLHASE: To tell you when something 25 needs to be done or hasn't been done or should be done. In 1-26-04 80 1 that -- in that there will be a weekly meeting at the 2 building with the Historical meeting -- Commission, and a 3 weekly meeting with the Friends, so that will be the only 4 group that will be meeting there on a regular, sustained 5 basis to know if the building is being maintained or taken 6 care of. And that doesn't even have to be done, you know. 7 It's just the fact that we're there. We felt like it would 8 be good for you to have someone that is looking at the 9 building on a regular basis. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think the -- I 11 mean, clearly, if there's something that needs to be fixed 12 and you're there, we'd want to know that. 13 MR. SCHELLHASE: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all you're saying, 15 I think. 16 MR. SCHELLHASE: That's our thinking, yeah. 17 Not from the standpoint of booking or money collections or 18 seeing how it's to be used or not to be used. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I really think the 21 proper way to do this thing -- and I'm on this, ready to 22 vote on it, but I think it would be more appropriate for 23 Glenn to put together some more thoughts, to come back to 24 the next meeting and do it at that time. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I definitely think that our 1-26-04 81 1 Facilities Manager needs to have a significant input in this 2 entire process. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: Can I get a copy of the 5 proposal? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 7 MR. SCHELLHASE: Sure can. Item Number 2. 8 Joe Herring, Chairman of the Historical Commission, which 9 was a two-year selection, resigned. And to inform the 10 Court, the first vice president, Rayne Haney, has moved up 11 to the chairmanship. Ann Bethel, the second vice chairman, 12 has moved up to the first vice chairman, and there's no 13 plans at this time to elect a new second vice chairman. New 14 participants on the Commission are Mike Bolin, Kathryn 15 Mitchell, and Paul Parks, for your information. Third item, 16 we would like to remind the Court that 2005 -- 2006 will be 17 the 100th anniversary of Kerr County. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 100th? How about 19 150? 20 MR. SCHELLHASE: 150th anniversary of Kerr 21 County. And if there's going to be any activities 22 planned -- certainly, if it's going to involve Commissioners 23 Court -- the Historical Commission, we would like to know 24 well in advance. So, as those plans are developed by the 25 Court, we would like to be kept posted on them. Comfort has 1-26-04 82 1 started theirs a year ago. Theirs, I believe, is 2005. 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: This year. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This year. It will be 4 this September. 5 MR. SCHELLHASE: They started well over a 6 year ago, have a lot of activity going on, so it might be a 7 guide for the Court. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that Comfort or 9 Kendall County? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Comfort. 11 MR. SCHELLHASE: Comfort. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe they've -- it's 13 a weekend in September, I believe. 14 MR. HOLEKAMP: September. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, the officers -- 16 you have two officers? How do they vote? 17 MR. SCHELLHASE: Beg pardon? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How do they vote, if 19 you only have two people? 20 MR. SCHELLHASE: We still have the same -- 21 all the rest of the officers are the same as they were. 22 These are just the changes that took place. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see what you're 24 saying, okay. But you're not going to have a second vice 25 chairman? 1-26-04 83 1 MR. SCHELLHASE: No. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you looking to 3 the Court for ideas in terms of what a -- a sesquicentennial 4 celebration's all about? 5 MR. SCHELLHASE: All I need is part of -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or come back here 7 with ideas? 8 MR. SCHELLHASE: No, we're just putting it on 9 the calendar to remind everyone that it is a significant 10 event for Kerr County, and we don't want the Commissioners 11 Court to forget it. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very good. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On that point, I mean, I 14 would toss the ball back in your court. I think it's a 15 private sector event, or should be a private sector event 16 more than a public. I think there's some resolutions or 17 other things we can do for public awareness, but I know 18 Comfort set up a -- a committee to get going, and I don't 19 know if that's going on, but it's certainly -- you know, to 20 me, as a Commissioner, I'd look to someone in the community 21 to -- you know, trying to get a handle on this and start 22 organizing it. I don't think that's something that the 23 county government should be -- should do. 24 MR. SCHELLHASE: I agree. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on this 1-26-04 84 1 particular agenda item? Any member of the Court have a 2 motion you wish to offer? 3 MR. SCHELLHASE: Thank you. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Lacking that, we have a timed 5 item at 10:30 that we're late on. If that's -- if that's 6 going to take a considerable period of time, I'd like to 7 give our court reporter a break and take a recess and come 8 back and start on that. It might be better to do that, 9 anyway. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't you get 11 that out of the way? Why don't you get 1.5 out of the way? 12 MR. EVANS: I'm at 1.5; I think mine will 13 only take a minute. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It will take longer 15 than that, 'cause have I some questions for you. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: You think it'll take longer 17 than just a moment, Commissioner Baldwin? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, is a minute 60 19 seconds? Or -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just -- I just want 22 him to tell us when he's walking in the courthouse, exactly 23 what he's going to use, when he's walking out of the 24 courthouse and those kinds of things. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 1-26-04 85 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's unclear in the -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is unclear, the 3 date, hours. 4 MR. EVANS: Could the chairman -- could a 5 Commissioner -- Judge, could we postpone this agenda item to 6 your next meeting? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know why we can't 8 handle it. 9 MS. SOVIL: 23rd -- I mean 8th of March. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: 8th of March? That's going to 11 be -- 12 MS. SOVIL: Sorry, 9th of February. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 9th of February. 14 MR. EVANS: We've got a long time till 15 March 27th, so this is not an urgent matter, but I'd be 16 perfectly happy to come back on the next Commissioners 17 meeting. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We could be almost 19 through with it by now if we'd just done it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me go ahead and call it; 21 we'll get it out of the way and let you get on down the 22 road. Item 5, consider and discuss request to use of 23 courthouse for Democratic County Convention. If you'd try 24 to present that to us as quickly as you could, please, sir. 25 MR. EVANS: I'm speaking on behalf of Dot 1-26-04 86 1 Larimer, our county chair, who was unable to be here. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What is your name? 3 The court reporter doesn't know your name. 4 MR. EVANS: I'm Maury Evans with the Kerr 5 County Democratic Executive Committee. I'm speaking on 6 behalf of Dot Larimer, who's our county chair. We would 7 like to use the same room that we did last time, under the 8 same conditions we did in 2002, starting at 9 o'clock. We 9 anticipate that we would be through in that same day. I'm 10 almost positive we would be through by noon, but there's a 11 possibility we could go into the afternoon, but extremely 12 unlikely that it can go on beyond that same day. We've had 13 those meetings that lasted as short as 30 minutes, and the 14 longest one has taken, at most, two hours. We would not 15 require anything but the use of the room. We would not be 16 serving any beverages, or any other use of the room other 17 than just having a meeting, making our motions, electing our 18 delegates, and then removing ourselves from the building. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What's the date of 20 that meeting? 21 MR. EVANS: March 27th. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 3/27. And what room 23 are we talking about? 24 MR. EVANS: The Commissioners Courtroom, 25 198th. 1-26-04 87 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I think it's County Court at 2 Law, isn't it? 3 MR. EVANS: County Court at Law. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 MR. EVANS: That's the same one we used last 6 year. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 8 MR. EVANS: Last time in 2002. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that -- what day of 11 the week is the 27th? 12 MS. SOVIL: Saturday. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a Saturday? 14 MR. EVANS: Saturday, yes. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then what happens, 16 Glenn, do you trot up here from the house and open and 17 close? 18 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: You'll be here anyway, though, 20 won't you, with the other convention? Aren't both 21 conventions held on the same day? 22 MS. SOVIL: Yes. 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: Is that correct? 24 MS. SOVIL: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: March 27th, yes. 1-26-04 88 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The Republican 4 convention will be upstairs. 5 MS. SOVIL: Yes. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: And they understand they clean 7 up behind themselves. We assume that you would do the same. 8 MR. EVANS: Yes, we would pick up all of the 9 papers, et cetera. I don't think there's been any 10 complaints in the past that I know of. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not aware of any from 12 either group, are you, Mr. Holekamp? 13 MR. HOLEKAMP: No. The only -- the reminders 14 of the food and drink thing in these courtrooms, it's -- I 15 really discourage it. Plus the signs on the outside 16 discourage it. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 18 we approve the request for the -- on March 27th to hold the 19 Democratic county convention. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 22 approve the request for holding the Democratic county 23 convention in County Court at Law on March 27th of this 24 year, generally the hours as outlined. Any further 25 questions or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 1-26-04 89 1 signify by raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll stand in recess until 6 11 o'clock. 7 MR. EVANS: Thank you. 8 (Recess taken from 10:46 a.m. to 11:00 a.m.) 9 - - - - - - - - - - 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's come back to 11 order, if we could, please. We will resume the special 12 Commissioners Court meeting scheduled for this date, Monday, 13 January 26th. We took a break at about a quarter to 11:00. 14 It's now a couple minutes after 11:00. The next item on the 15 agenda was a timed item for 10:30, Item Number 9, consider 16 and discuss the January 7, '04 offer from Mooney Airplane 17 Company to revise and extend the lease between Mooney and 18 Kerr County and the City of Kerrville for the Mooney 19 facilities located at the Kerrville/Kerr County Airport, 20 commonly known as Louis Schreiner Field. Commissioner 21 Nicholson. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Each -- each of us 23 got a copy of a letter from Mr. Nelson Happy, the president 24 of Mooney Aircraft -- Mooney Airplane Corporation, proposing 25 revisions and -- and extension of the lease that Mooney 1-26-04 90 1 Aircraft -- Mooney Airplane Corporation has at Louis 2 Schreiner Field. Mr. Dewey Livingston was instrumental in 3 drafting this proposal. Mr. Livingston is a -- is a former 4 Mooney president and a member of our community for some 35 5 or 40 years, I think, and he asked to be on the agenda to 6 address and endorse the proposal which was made by Mooney 7 Airplane Corporation. Mr. Livingston? 8 MR. LIVINGSTON: Gentlemen, I was asked about 9 three months ago by Nelson Happy if I would intervene into 10 the problem of the lease arrangement between Mooney, the 11 County, and the City, because there had been so much 12 controversy, which it appeared that it was not going to be 13 easily remedied. At that time, Mooney had been searching 14 for a possible location to relocate from Kerrville, and five 15 different locations were under consideration. I would like 16 for everybody to know and understand that I accepted this 17 crusade from Mooney on a no-cost basis. I'm not necessarily 18 representing Mooney, but rather, I'd like to refer to I 19 represent both Mooney, the County, and the City, because 20 what is good for Mooney will be good for the County and the 21 City, and vice-versa. I feel that way. I first started 22 assessing the buildings at Mooney some time ago, and made a 23 report accordingly, and I think most of you -- you fellows 24 have copies of that report. There has been excessive damage 25 on a lot of the buildings, particularly the roof, which has 1-26-04 91 1 been a lot of hail damage over the years. And every 2 building, with the exception of one, is leaking. One 3 building has been -- the roof has been repaired by the Dopp 4 administration when they were there, but all other buildings 5 are leaking, anywhere from seeing large holes in the roof to 6 putting drip buckets under drips. 7 One building in particular, Building Number 8 17, as you drive up to the parking lot, the first building 9 on the left, it's a wood structure building. That is the 10 only building that I climbed up on the roof personally to 11 look at it. It's all wood. The roof is asbestos shingles 12 and rolled roofing. It was very apparent that it has 13 sustained hail damage for many years. It has never been 14 repaired, obviously. It leaks terribly inside the building; 15 in some cases, large holes in the roof, but the building 16 itself is -- basically appears to be thoroughly sound. It 17 has all wood paneling on the inside, a number of offices, 18 approximately 12, maybe 14,000 square foot, nice size 19 building. I would like to suggest to the Court that you 20 consider fixing this building up, replacing the roof -- my 21 estimate would be about $100,000 -- and possibly using this 22 for the airport terminal, rather than spend $600,000 or 23 $700,000 for a new building. It's a decent building. In my 24 many discussions with different people, it has been 25 suggested, well, it needs to be bulldozed down. I urge you, 1-26-04 92 1 gentlemen, don't let this happen. The building can be used. 2 If it can't be used for the air terminal, it could be fixed 3 up and leased out. 4 And, speaking of damage on buildings, Mooney 5 pays the insurance premium on these buildings. Whether -- 6 whether there has been claims against the damage of 7 buildings by Mooney is undetermined, but I think there needs 8 to be some surveillance by both City and County that will 9 surveil storm damage on all these buildings after a storm to 10 see what damage is done, and will Mooney -- or whoever it is 11 in charge at that time -- will Mooney see that damage is 12 repaired by insurance claims. I have the feeling that, in 13 the past, insurance claims could have been filed and certain 14 people would have put the money into their pocket, and/or 15 claims were never filed, and just ignored the damage. It's 16 one or the other. But I urge you to come up with some type 17 of a plan to surveil the insurance for Mooney, and all the 18 buildings. 19 I've talked to many people in this 20 three-month time; all of the councilmen from the city, the 21 City Manager. I never got to talk to the mayor, because I 22 was never able to reach him by phone. I've talked to the -- 23 the president of the Chamber of Commerce, as well as a lot 24 of business people, drumming up support for Mooney. Mooney 25 is -- has right now got 180 people. They're building about 1-26-04 93 1 four airplanes per month, and during 2004, this year, 2 they're going to try to go to six a month. They can go -- 3 they can build more airplanes if they can market them. The 4 general aviation market on sales of aircraft has been very 5 soft for a lot of years, and I have no reason to believe but 6 what it's going to continue to be soft because of what our 7 country is faced with. However, if Mooney could increase 8 their work force, say, 50, 100 percent, that would be a real 9 shot in the arm for the county and the city, having 300 to 10 400 people on the payroll. That's what we need to look at, 11 I think, in lieu of adding dollars to the lease agreement. 12 The lease agreement now is $1,450 a month, and by the letter 13 from Mooney, they ask that it continue to be $1,450 a month 14 for the full term of the 30 years. 15 I ask the Court to consider some other 16 possible solutions rather than dollars and cents. Why can't 17 we offer Mooney an incentive that could be spread over the 18 years to do some repair work on the roofs which is badly 19 needed, in lieu of some lease dollars and cents, after the 20 ten-year period? It'll take a number of years, in my 21 opinion, to fix the roofs if Mooney was to do this, because 22 of the added expense. In my opinion, the roofs now -- right 23 now can be fixed, or at least prolonged if we would see that 24 action is taken in the next year or two. The longer it's 25 put off, the more it's going to cost somebody. Mooney has 1-26-04 94 1 already expressed to me -- Nelson, that is -- that he cannot 2 and will not replace any more roofs. They're replacing one 3 right now. It's a great expense to replace the roofs in 4 those large buildings, but I think a repair is absolutely 5 mandatory, and I urge the Court to effect some type of 6 wording into the lease arrangement that would be an 7 incentive for Mooney, providing they stay here. 8 Why don't we set our minds with the gamble 9 for Mooney to stay here and to build up a force greater than 10 what it is today? In order to gamble, though, we're going 11 to have to exercise good judgment on the lease or the 12 extension. I urge the Court to finish up a 30-year lease 13 with an incentive for fixing the roof over maybe 10, 15 14 years, plus at the end of a 10-year period, with the words, 15 "review by a three-man force," one from each entity; Mooney, 16 the Court -- County Court and City, to review the nation's 17 economy, the airplane production and sales, and let that 18 three-man team pass judgment on whether it is feasible to 19 increase the lease for the continuing time, or whether it's 20 to stay as-is. I particularly emphasize this three-man team 21 in order to keep it out of the politics of the whole court 22 and -- and the council. What if Mooney happens to go down 23 in the next 10 years? Let's face it, it could happen. It 24 has happened before. It has happened for many reasons, one 25 of which is the lack of finance, and I can particularly tell 1-26-04 95 1 you that myself, what that means. You don't build airplanes 2 without financing. You don't get financing unless you've 3 got county and city support behind you. That's an absolute 4 must. 5 Right now, the 30-year lease is to be 6 finished up, if so, so that Mooney can supply to the finance 7 people that they've already borrowed $5 million from that we 8 now -- we, Mooney -- now have a 30-year lease. The $5 9 million was borrowed some time ago in December, early, I 10 believe, to pay off the taxes, which is over $700,000, 11 hookup to the sewer, which was undetermined at that time as 12 to what it would cost. They finally got it done by contract 13 of $50,000, which was quite reasonable. As of today, I 14 understand that they still don't have the final results on 15 the testing of the chemical solution, et cetera, but it is 16 forthcoming. I don't think there's any reason, however, to 17 wait on that; that it's causing any problems other than 18 possible certain people expected it to be done months ago 19 and it didn't happen. But it takes money, gentlemen, to 20 make those things happen, and they didn't have it. 21 What if Mooney does go down, whatever the 22 reason it may be, sometime during the next ten years? And, 23 gentlemen, this could happen. They'll end up with a lot of 24 empty buildings for both the City and the County, and those 25 buildings primarily was built for airplane manufacturing. I 1-26-04 96 1 don't mean to imply that nothing else could work there, 2 'cause it could with some adaptation, but the City, County, 3 and school would lose a lot of taxes that Mooney's now 4 paying. I think we need to think about those things, not 5 the inevitable. Hopefully, it ain't going to happen, but it 6 surely could. Gents, I want to cite to you a little example 7 that really has nothing to do with Mooney, but it could. 8 And I'm about through, Judge. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not rushing you, Dewey. 10 MR. LIVINGSTON: Sir? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not rushing you. 12 MR. LIVINGSTON: Thirty years ago, I notified 13 Mooney that I was leaving. No particular date I set. If 14 you want to set a date, fine. They didn't. They said, 15 "Stay as long as you will." In the meantime, I started my 16 own company. Within four or five, six months, I utilized 17 all of those people for the most part that was working at 18 Mooney when I shut it down. I shut Mooney down because 19 there was no money to build airplanes. Butler, the parent 20 company, almost went under. The company that I built was 21 Texas Products Manufacturing, a very profitable company. It 22 was innovation of building chassis for racing snowmobiles 23 with aircraft technology. It was a very profitable company. 24 I sold the company in the fourth year. Within one year 25 after I sold the company, it was moved to San Antonio, and 1-26-04 97 1 not one person in the county or city went to try to appeal 2 the case. Not one. We had 100 people working there, and 3 almost overnight, the decision was made to move out. 4 125,000 square feet of machine equipment was moved out to 5 San Antonio. I site that only as an example of what could 6 happen. Let's don't let it happen. Thank you, gentlemen. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Livingston. We 8 appreciate it. Any questions for Mr. Livingston? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have any 10 questions. I have a couple comments, though, Judge, with 11 regard to the situation. Dewey, thank you for being here 12 and thank you for your interest. I'm reading a quote from 13 your paper that you gave us, and in that you say, "It should 14 not be reasonable to expect the new owners of Mooney to fix 15 all the building and maintenance problems that have been 16 allowed to accumulate over 50 years." I suspect that is the 17 manner of your speech in which you were trying to say don't 18 lay the sins of the parents off on the children. Well, by 19 the same token, if my reading of the lease agreements that 20 have existed down through the years is correct, a lot of 21 that maintenance -- most of that maintenance should have 22 been done by the owners at the time that it was necessary to 23 do it. 24 MR. LIVINGSTON: Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Rather than being 1-26-04 98 1 left to accumulate for 50 years of deterioration. 2 MR. LIVINGSTON: That's right, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Am I correct? 4 MR. LIVINGSTON: That's right. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, we do have a 6 problem, and we have to figure out how to address it. 7 MR. LIVINGSTON: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whether or not it is 9 the taxpayers who address it directly, because it is a 10 jointly-owned facility by the City and the County, that 11 remains yet to be determined. There are some ways to do 12 that so that the immediate burden of doing that is not on 13 the taxpayers, and I've suggested it many times, and somehow 14 or other it seems to fall on deaf ears. But there's a lot 15 of sales tax on a lot of airplanes being paid in a lot of 16 places other than Kerr County. One would wonder whether or 17 not some of that sales tax that is paid on the purchase of 18 an aircraft, that is levied and benefits other political 19 jurisdictions outside of Kerr County, and perhaps for the 20 most part outside of the state of Texas, whether they're -- 21 whether or not that is a source that might be considered to 22 do some of these things. 23 Having said that, let me just -- let me just 24 say this. I know this Court will be diligent about its 25 deliberations. I'm confident of that. I know that we also 1-26-04 99 1 keep uppermost in our mind economic development. Economic 2 development for Kerr County, Kerrville, the airport. We 3 also keep uppermost in our minds the value of 180 jobs. 4 Well-paying jobs, good-paying jobs. And I don't think that 5 anybody on this bench is of a mind to want to see that go 6 away, although we are constantly threatened with that as a 7 possibility, and you reminded us about three times in your 8 comments that that is always a possibility. So, that 9 guillotine seems to always hang over our heads. 10 MR. LIVINGSTON: That's right. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somebody other than 12 us has the ability to cut the cord and make the guillotine 13 fall. But, in conclusion, I just want to say that I -- I 14 know this Court will deliberate and come to some conclusions 15 as to what we think is a reasonable approach to solve this 16 particular problem over the long haul. 17 MR. LIVINGSTON: Any other questions I may be 18 able to answer? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- well, I'll 20 just make a general comment. I appreciate the interest that 21 you've shown in coming to the court today and presenting -- 22 you know, talking with us in your presentation and previous 23 conversations with you. But I think the -- you know, the 24 next step is that the City and the County and Mooney need to 25 sit together and, because of the nature of it, probably 1-26-04 100 1 under a, you know, a less open manner. You can't negotiate 2 a lease in front of the press and everybody else. And I 3 just think we need to go to that next step. And, to me, the 4 next step is -- I think it's on the agenda for later today, 5 as a matter of fact. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's on the agenda. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To meet with the City and 8 talk about it amongst ourselves. So, I think we're 9 progressing, and I think, certainly, you know, this 10 Commissioner wants to keep Mooney in Kerr County. So -- 11 MR. LIVINGSTON: I would like to answer your 12 question, Bill, in regard to the sales of aircraft versus 13 tax -- taxes. When they sell airplanes all over the world, 14 they have to pay taxes to the country where that airplane is 15 going. I've been through this already to investigate that, 16 like, why? You know. If they -- if they sell an airplane 17 that's going to stay here, obviously, they collect the 18 taxes. There's a couple airplanes, as a matter of fact, 19 that the first of next month that's going to Africa, and 20 they have to pay taxes in Africa. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand that, 22 Dewey, but what about the United States, the jurisdictions 23 of the United States? I'm not talking about foreign soil. 24 MR. LIVINGSTON: Yes, I understand that. 25 You're right. You're right. And the more they can build 1-26-04 101 1 and sell locally, the more taxes will be generated. You are 2 quite right, sir. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I think, under the present 4 law, if the customer -- the purchaser decides to take 5 delivery of that aircraft in Nevada, the purchaser can make 6 that election; the aircraft can be delivered in Nevada, and 7 there's no tax incidence in the state of Texas as a result 8 of the sale of that aircraft. 9 MR. LIVINGSTON: Yes. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: If I understand the law 11 correctly. 12 MR. LIVINGSTON: That's right. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: So, what we're talking about, 14 to try and impose some sort of a sales tax incidence, for 15 example, in the state of Texas, would require legislative 16 action, maybe even congressional action, in order to resolve 17 that. 18 MR. LIVINGSTON: That's a good thought, if it 19 could be done. 'Cause there will be an enormous -- lots of 20 tax on a $400,000 airplane. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure is. Doesn't take long to 22 -- it's about 25 grand an aircraft. 23 MR. LIVINGSTON: I possibly left off an 24 important item, if I may. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Surely. 1-26-04 102 1 MR. LIVINGSTON: With the buildings that's 2 being turned back to the County and City, it's a step in the 3 right direction for Mooney. I spent several days out there 4 evaluating the utilization of space, et cetera, all over -- 5 all over the place in the different buildings, and 6 ultimately, I convinced Mooney they had too many buildings; 7 they need to turn back buildings and land, the paint shop 8 being the last one. And I think their letter says within a 9 year. And I might throw this out to you for your 10 edification. Mooney is looking at a paint shop that is 11 in -- in use now in another city close by that has waterfall 12 paint booths in it. The building could be moved intact to 13 the airport here at Mooney, which would enable them to turn 14 loose of the old airport -- I mean the old paint shop, which 15 would be the final end of turning over almost half of the 16 land that's under their lease. They are not taking any 17 action on this paint shop until a lease is consummated. I'm 18 sorry, I neglected to point that out. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I appreciate you bringing that 20 back. 21 MR. LIVINGSTON: Any other questions? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I appreciate, Dewey, 23 the -- the historical perspective that you provide and the 24 knowledge of the industry that you provide, and that will be 25 useful to us, very useful to us. And my -- my primary 1-26-04 103 1 motivation in dealing with this is to maintain and enhance 2 those 180 jobs out there. They are -- 3 MR. LIVINGSTON: Good. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- critically 5 important to Kerr County, and I want to do -- I want to do 6 what we can do reasonably to help Mooney stay in business 7 here in Kerr County. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Livingston, I want to 10 thank you for your interest and your efforts. I realize 11 that it's pretty much a thankless task; you're getting shot 12 at from both ends, and you're not getting any compensation 13 for doing it. And I -- I'd prefer that you not go up on any 14 more of those buildings, though. I'd hate like the dickens 15 for you to fall off one of them. 16 MR. LIVINGSTON: I didn't get up on any of 17 the metal roof. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I really appreciate your 19 interest and your efforts, and I know your motivation is to 20 try and keep Mooney as an economic generator in this county, 21 and none of us know what the future's going to bring. 22 MR. LIVINGSTON: Right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: The general aviation business 24 is -- is unstable at best. It's dependent upon the economy, 25 and -- but you take that with the business. The jobs that 1-26-04 104 1 they provide, however, are the kind and the -- and the type 2 of job and the remuneration aspect of it such that they're 3 the kind of jobs we want. We need more of them, and if we 4 can increase the number of jobs that are available, I think 5 we can enhance our local economy, and that's what's we're 6 all interested in. Thank you very much, sir. 7 MR. LIVINGSTON: Appreciate it. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I want to point 10 out that here's another great leader in our community, and, 11 of course, he lives in Precinct Number 1. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He has interests in 13 Precinct 2. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, that's just part 15 of his interest. 16 MR. LIVINGSTON: You've got your support, 17 Buster. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But he's been 19 married to my cousin for 50 years. 20 MR. LIVINGSTON: Thank you, gentlemen. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Dewey. We really 22 appreciate it. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: One big, happy family 24 here. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: This matter relative to the 1-26-04 105 1 lease is on the executive session for later, for any of you 2 that reviewed the agenda. It's matters relative to that 3 lease. That being the case, I assume there's no motion to 4 be offered or any further action to be taken on the agenda 5 item as presented. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, question. I mean, 7 I noticed the City Manager and Airport Manager in the 8 audience. You don't have any comments on this? Just came 9 to listen? 10 MR. PEARCE: No, sir. 11 MR. PATTERSON: Not at this point, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We'll move to Item 1.8. 13 I would point out to the Court that I got a call from the 14 Treasurer this morning. She's ill, and asked that I pass 15 Item 1.7. Item 8, consider and discuss reduction of 16 registration fees for Rabies Drive, February 7, 2004 through 17 February 21, 2004. Mr. Marc Allen. 18 MR. ALLEN: Good morning. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, sir. 20 MR. ALLEN: Well, it's time again for our 21 annual Rabies Drive, which is hosted by the Extension 22 Service and promoted by the Animal Control Department. The 23 drive will start February 7th through the 21st. On 24 Saturday, February 7th, from 1 o'clock till 3 o'clock, we'll 25 have a veterinarian at the Ingram Fire Department, the 1-26-04 106 1 Center Point Fire Department, the Turtle Creek Fire 2 Department, and the Cypress Creek Community Center, and they 3 will be out in the rural areas to give vaccinations for all 4 the rural folks that don't want to come into town. After 5 that, for two weeks in the veterinarians' offices, you can 6 still get a reduced rabies vaccination. And what I'm here 7 for is to ask the Court to reduce the registration fee from 8 what it is now, $5 and $10, to $1 during this two-week 9 period. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is the 11 vaccination fee? 12 MR. ALLEN: It's going to be $6. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And normally $10? 14 MR. ALLEN: Well every vet has a different 15 fee. Some of them may be $12, some may be $15. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They'll all be $6? 17 MR. ALLEN: Right. All the vets will be $6 18 during the Rabies Drive. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, you want the 20 registration fee to go down from $10 to $1? 21 MR. ALLEN: Right, that's correct, just 22 during the drive, the two-week period. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That two-week period. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 1-26-04 107 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 2 further questions or discussion? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. You said 4 something and I'm -- I've been thinking as you said it. How 5 is this -- this part of the Extension Office? 6 MR. ALLEN: Well, they're the ones that have 7 always hosted it. It's just -- I get called in here to 8 promote it. It's always been that way. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What does "hosting" mean? 10 I -- what do they do? 11 MR. ALLEN: I'm not sure. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 13 MR. ALLEN: They send me the letter and tell 14 me this is the time of year that we're supposed to do it. 15 And we've done that it way since I've been here. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: The whole purpose being to 18 encourage and promote and increase the number of rabies 19 vaccinations and animal registrations? 20 MR. ALLEN: That's correct. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 22 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 23 your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 1-26-04 108 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, if I might 4 make an observation or suggestion, I don't know which, there 5 are a few people left in the audience who are interested in 6 Items 12, 13, 14, and 15. Can they be done now, or should 7 we tell them that they're going to be done after -- after 8 our lunch break? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The County Attorney advised me 10 during the break that he was doing some more investigation 11 on at least one of these items. I'm not -- I think it was 12 Item 14. And I indicated to him that it appeared that it 13 was going to be after lunch before we got to that, and -- 14 MR. FEARY: Your Honor, we got that resolved. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 16 MR. FEARY: We got that resolved, the issue 17 that Mr. Motley talked to you about. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 19 MR. FEARY: With Mr. Johnston. So, if the 20 Court wants to go ahead with that, we can. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. What you're suggesting, 22 Commissioner, is that we -- we go to Items 12, 13, and 14 23 and 15, and see if we can resolve those before lunch? 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That would be 25 convenient to some of the -- 1-26-04 109 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Surely. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: If there's no objection, Item 4 12, consider and discuss the findings of the County Engineer 5 and County Attorney on the status of investigating the 6 citizen's complaint that a construction pad on Should Bee 7 Road would cause rainwater runoff to adversely impact 8 private property or public right-of-way. Commissioner 9 Nicholson. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We talked about this 11 issue at our last Commissioners Court meeting, and there was 12 some questions that could only be answered by the County 13 Attorney and the County Engineer, so I'd like them to 14 describe to us their findings on this one. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff? Sheriff, 17 could you turn that air-conditioner down, please? Or off, 18 whatever. 19 MR. FEARY: Okay. On the -- Item 12, the 20 Should Bee Road location, we went out and visited that 21 Friday afternoon with the County Engineer. There -- there 22 are two levels of pad there that were built, apparently to 23 put a house on at some point. It's in the floodplain. 24 There's a question whether it's in the floodway or not, 25 which would make a difference on what can be done there. 1-26-04 110 1 But there was a permit issued in 1999 to put in a certain 2 amount of fill on those lots. My understanding is that 3 permit was issued after the fact, but that was issued by 4 U.G.R.A. when U.G.R.A. was administering floodplain. 5 That -- that permit was good for six months, and I have seen 6 it, but apparently there's a note in the file that Stuart 7 Barron at some point verbally agreed and made some notes 8 to -- to add to that pad. That's not part of the permit, 9 however. The pad has been increased, I believe in October 10 of 2003, clearly outside the permit period. There's been 11 another few feet of dirt put on that -- on that pad. 12 It looks at this point that that addition to 13 that pad is outside the permit, and we could -- the County 14 could require that it be removed. That is the most definite 15 situation we have. Whether or not the original pad could be 16 removed and revocation of permit is, in my opinion at this 17 point, really up in the air. We don't have authority beyond 18 floodplain administration. The Water Code provides that if 19 a person diverts or impounds a natural flow of surface 20 waters, and in a manner that damages property of another, 21 the code provides for the -- that other person, the person 22 damaged, to have a remedy against the person who diverts the 23 water. Doesn't provide for the County to go in and do 24 anything beyond administering the floodplain. So, where we 25 are on this one, I think, is we can probably -- the County 1-26-04 111 1 could probably cause, through the floodplain administration, 2 the latest addition to that pad to be removed. At this 3 point, I don't see a way to go back and remove the original 4 pad. There's also been an application, I believe, for a 5 house to be built there, which would require a study. That 6 has not been done. It's -- that area out there isn't 7 mapped, and we don't know if it's in the floodway. Like I 8 said, that would make a major difference on whether the 9 house could be built on there or not. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the -- I mean, I 11 guess, how does -- this is probably more to Franklin than to 12 you. What is your standard way for proceeding when somebody 13 wants to build a house in such an area, whether this area or 14 any other area? 15 MR. JOHNSTON: They'd have to get a 16 development permit, and part of that would be to provide an 17 engineering study, show that they won't raise the level at 18 any point in the -- affect the floodplain more than a foot. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if it's -- if it's 20 not in the floodway, it's fairly common? 21 MR. JOHNSTON: If it's in the floodway, 22 that's a different criteria. They have no rise in the 23 floodway, if it's permitted at all. It's usually not 24 permitted. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not permitted at all in 1-26-04 112 1 the floodway? 2 MR. JOHNSTON: No fill is permitted in the 3 floodway. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And if it's in the 5 floodplain, I mean, depending on the situation, it can or 6 can not be done, based on the engineering or the engineering 7 study? 8 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that what you're 10 saying? 11 MR. JOHNSTON: Based on that study. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that study, then, in 13 addition to coming -- or being approved by the County, it's 14 approved by FEMA? Doesn't FEMA get involved with it? 15 MR. JOHNSTON: No, it's approved by the 16 County Floodplain Administrator. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What I don't 19 understand is, any -- seems to me that any time a rule or a 20 regulation or a law is broken, I mean, County Attorney's 21 office -- I mean, you don't go to Judge Brown and discuss 22 these things. You go out and have them arrested and deal 23 with the issue. I don't understand why -- I never have 24 figured out why we're having this discussion. If the guy's 25 breaking the rules, do something about it. 1-26-04 113 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Make him -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't get it. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Make him remove the fill 4 and file all the papers, do the work properly. 5 MR. FEARY: I'm not aware of a criminal 6 violation, so we couldn't go filing on him. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just using that as 8 an example, but something -- we wouldn't have this -- the 9 federal people wouldn't be involved if there wasn't some 10 kind of law; I mean, something we can do about it. 11 MR. FEARY: Correct. Under our authority to 12 administer the floodplain, there is, and we could -- 13 probably the first step would be to write a letter directing 14 the individual to remove the fill that was put in there 15 outside the confines of the permit that he has. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I thought that had 17 been done. No, go ahead, I'm sorry. 18 MR. FEARY: I'm not aware of that having been 19 done. If that doesn't happen, the Court could authorize us 20 to file a civil suit, and we could file through -- get an 21 injunction asking him to remove it. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That, to me, is what we 23 should do, those steps. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further input on this 25 issue from you two gentlemen? 1-26-04 114 1 MR. FEARY: No, Your Honor. That's all I 2 have. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: We had two persons sign up to 4 speak on this issue. Ms. Catherine Fox and Ms. Mary Hart 5 Frost. Okay, Ms. Fox. 6 MS. FOX: Thank you. My name is Catherine 7 Fox. I reside at 131 Santa Christina Lane West, my new 8 official 9-1-1 address. Yeah, finally. I would like to 9 begin by answering Commissioner Baldwin's last question; why 10 hadn't something been done, or how did we get to this point? 11 Very simply, it is my personal opinion that this thing was 12 allowed to get to this point because the last Floodplain 13 Administrator, whose name I will not mention, was not doing 14 his job, and allowed the prevention order to be broken. And 15 the new Floodplain Administrator coming on board, being 16 brand-new, I would like to give him the benefit of the 17 doubt, but he did not notice that the permit was expired. 18 So, here we are. We're not going to pass blame on anyone; 19 we're going to move forward and hopefully get this resolved. 20 The original permit was issued in October of 1999, stamped, 21 quote, "This development permit is valid for six months," 22 unquote. That's down at the bottom of the permit. 23 Therefore, I believe that the gentleman who has done this is 24 in contempt of court, and I request that removal of the pad 25 fill take place immediately. As was just discussed, a 1-26-04 115 1 letter could be sent out to him, et cetera, et cetera, by 2 the County Attorney's assistant. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ms. Fox, are you talking 4 about the new -- the fill recently added? 5 MS. FOX: The pad. The construction pad 6 only. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is the new 8 2-foot -- 9 MS. FOX: Yes. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have any way of 11 determining when the original fill was put in? 12 MS. FOX: Yes, we do. I have provided all 13 that documentation to the County Attorney's office. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 15 MS. FOX: I request, furthermore, that 16 neither a new development permit, a new construction permit, 17 or any variances of any type be issued or granted until 18 definitive, detailed, material proof is submitted to the 19 Floodplain Administrator's office. That means every single 20 article, section, subsection, and definition of the 21 regulatory floodway, as defined in that article of Kerr 22 County's Flood Damage Prevention Order Number 26463, 23 including those outlined by Franklin Johnston's 24 December 2nd, 2003 letter to the owner of Lots 42, 43, and 25 44, located in Bumble Bee Hills Subdivision in west Kerr 1-26-04 116 1 County. As these lots are located in a regulated flood 2 hazard zone within a designated 100-year flood area, it is 3 imperative that no corners are cut, no allowances are 4 granted, no deals made, and no opinions allowed. It is the 5 duty of the Court, the County's Floodplain Administrator, 6 and the County Attorney's office to uphold and enforce Kerr 7 County's Flood Damage Prevention Order. If this is not 8 done, then all preexisting homes, development, roads, state, 9 county, and private, near the property seeking a permit to 10 develop in a flood-prone area are at risk. 11 I speak not only for myself, but for all the 12 individuals who have property adjacent to these lots. We 13 will not rest until we know for certain that our property is 14 safe from floodwater damage, and this can only be 15 accomplished by holding the owner and the County officials 16 accountable on this matter. It is far too important to 17 handle otherwise. We do believe in private property rights; 18 however, it is our contention that one's right to do 19 whatever he so desires with his own property stops the very 20 minute he endangers his neighbor's property. If this were 21 merely a case of endangerment to the individual in 22 question -- but, alas, it is not. The County adopted a 23 flood damage prevention plan, and now it is time for the 24 County to do the right thing. Stand behind it, enforce it, 25 and prove to we, the citizens, that it is worth the paper it 1-26-04 117 1 is printed on. According to an article in the West Kerr 2 Current, the Floodplain Administrator, Franklin Johnston, 3 explained, the primary reasons for regulating what is built 4 in the floodplain along the Guadalupe River and its 5 tributaries is to protect people and their property. As the 6 area in question is extremely close to both a major river, 7 the Guadalupe, and one of her tributaries, Bumblebee Creek, 8 I trust Mr. Johnston is fully aware of how serious this 9 matter truly is. 10 In conclusion, the County Attorney's 11 assistant said that, at this point in time, he could see no 12 way that the permit could be revoked, or that -- and then, 13 at another point in time, he stated that it was up in the 14 air. I would like to state that -- that if any citizen, 15 including myself, can meet the legal requirements to 16 present -- to present the fraud and material fact elements 17 of revoking a permit, that we will continue to pursue with 18 the County Attorney's office seeing that the fill is removed 19 that the original permit granted, if and when it is 20 determined that it is not in the floodway. But it must be 21 determined first whether it is in the floodway, because if 22 it is in the floodway, then that is a moot point; it needs 23 to be removed anyway. Thank you, gentlemen. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Fox, you indicated that 25 you had some evidence as to when the original fill was 1-26-04 118 1 placed? 2 MS. FOX: Yes. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: There -- 4 MS. FOX: It began being placed there on 5 March 5th of 1999. It was a long process, sir. It was 6 many, many, many days of dump trucks going to and from Point 7 A to Point B. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Was all of the original fill 9 placed there within the terms of the original permit which 10 was issued? 11 MS. FOX: No, sir. It was placed there 12 without a permit. The permit -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All before? 14 MS. FOX: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When was the permit 16 issued? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: October. 18 MS. FOX: October. Any other questions? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much. 20 MS. FOX: Thank you. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: We appreciate your comments. 22 Ms. Frost? 23 MS. FROST: I can give you some -- oh, I'm 24 Mary Hart Frost, and I live at 312 Queen Bee Drive West in 25 Hunt. I can give you some personal background on what 1-26-04 119 1 happened. The lake that is in the -- well, it's not in the 2 development. It's going to be in the Stablewood Springs 3 development. In March of 1999, that lake was dug out 4 16 feet, and all of the dirt from that lake was taken down 5 and placed on lots -- on Lots 44, 43, 42, and the parking 6 tract. I asked the individual who was moving that if he had 7 a permit to move that dirt down on those lots. I was a lot 8 more naive then than I am now. He told me that he had a 9 permit. After the dirt was dumped there, I found out that 10 he did not have a permit, and I wrote a letter to 11 Mr. Wiedenfeld saying that this is a follow-up of our 12 conversation regarding the dumping of fill without a 13 U.G.R.A. permit -- or U.G.R.A. permit. So, on -- there was 14 a meeting on September the 7th, 1999, which, unfortunately, 15 I was not able to attend. 16 MS. FOX: Excuse me, Mary. May I ask you, 17 please, not to discuss that at this time? 18 MS. FROST: Okay. What about the fact that 19 we never signed an agreement? 20 MS. FOX: No, don't discuss any of that. 21 MS. FROST: I -- I'll just give you my 22 personal opinion, and that is that that dirt was placed 23 there without a permit, and that I don't think it was 24 legally placed there, and -- and as Cathy said, we'll pursue 25 this if -- if it's not taken care of. 1-26-04 120 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much. We 2 appreciate it. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me see if I can 4 frame the issue, Mr. Engineer and the County Attorney. Did 5 I understand that the second fill was clearly unauthorized, 6 and we can clearly have -- require that to be removed? 7 MR. FEARY: I believe so, yes. There's no 8 permit that shows that that's -- that's been authorized, 9 other than these notes, which in my mind do not constitute a 10 permit. And we can probably -- we can ask that that be 11 removed, and I think if it became necessary, we could go 12 forward to get the top -- what has been referred to as 13 the -- the icing, with the bottom being the cake -- we can 14 get the icing taken off. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And, again, 16 Mr. Attorney, the initial feel, is it -- are you saying it's 17 unclear whether or not that was properly authorized? 18 MR. FEARY: Well, it was authorized after the 19 fact. And -- but since a permit was issued that covers that 20 fill, on the surface, it looks like it's okay, that it can 21 stay there. I think that -- the figures allude to maybe 22 some fraud and deception involved in the granting of that 23 permit. Well, if it was secured by fraud, then, of course, 24 it's not a valid permit, but that is -- that is an area that 25 we just don't know yet. 1-26-04 121 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Franklin, if -- I 2 guess they -- someone has applied for a permit to build a 3 residential dwelling on those lots; is that right? 4 MR. JOHNSTON: There's a permit open right 5 now. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Open? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: For that, yes. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If -- do you have an 9 opinion about whether or not it would be -- that engineering 10 studies would allow a residence to be built on the initial 11 pad? Is the initial pad -- the level of the initial pad 12 going to -- 13 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, I think the -- you know, 14 I wouldn't want to prejudge what the study would be. 15 Obviously, the initial pad probably wasn't high enough; 16 that's why they added more fill. Just -- you know, not -- 17 not based on anything but observation. But -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't see that -- we 19 certainly can -- I don't see -- 20 MR. JOHNSTON: I think, you know, we can 21 proceed along with the County Attorney to get them notified 22 to remove that part. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioners Court 24 doesn't need to act? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't -- we don't need 1-26-04 122 1 to act, but we can -- if you want it on the record, we can 2 certainly -- you can make a motion; I'll be glad to second 3 it, to authorize the County Engineer or Floodplain 4 Administrator to do what they need to do to get that -- 5 excuse me -- that most recent fill removed. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second that 7 motion. 8 MR. JOHNSTON: Well, that can be done 9 forthwith, and -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Another question, 12 Mr. Johnston. When the initial fill was placed there, was 13 there a condition precedent that the party requesting the 14 right to place the material there furnish your office, or 15 the then-Floodplain Administrator, with evidence that it was 16 not in the floodway? 17 MR. JOHNSTON: All -- the only information I 18 have is what's in the files. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: But did the rules require 20 that? 21 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah, they have to -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Before seeking that permit, 23 that they've got to negate the fact that the property where 24 they intend to place that fill material was in the actual 25 floodway? 1-26-04 123 1 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. They would have to 2 prove that it wasn't. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, they obviously didn't do 4 that. 5 MR. JOHNSTON: I think that question came up 6 in some of the correspondence, and then after that, it was 7 just kind of ignored, and it -- a permit was issued. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: What I'm suggesting is, if, in 9 fact, there was a requirement that the party seeking 10 permission to place the fill there negate the fact that the 11 property where they intended to place it was in the 12 floodway, and they failed to do it, there may be an 13 enforcement action against the whole -- the whole thing. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, just an 15 observation. I don't think it's rare, maybe not even 16 uncommon, that in Kerr County people start a development 17 without the proper permitting, because they know there's no 18 consequences to it. I think that goes on routinely. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think, yeah. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I think we may be on a mission 22 to send the message. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'd like to be. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But you're saying 25 there may be -- that may be an avenue to revoke that -- 1-26-04 124 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Absolutely. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- that permit? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: There may not have been the 4 appropriate -- the initial permit, number one, issued 5 after-the-fact, that makes it suspect. Number one. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That's under the theory it's 8 easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission. 9 But, secondly, if a requirement to get such a permit, had it 10 been done properly, is to negate that the property where 11 they intended to place the fill was -- was in the floodway 12 as a condition precedent to getting the permit, then the 13 requirements of the permit were not met to obtain it 14 initially, even assuming it was done timely. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because the permit 16 was for floodplain; is that correct? Not floodway. 17 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah. The floodway is very 18 different; you cannot add it in the floodway. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. So, 20 the permit was for floodplain? 21 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's an 23 important point. And the fact that the permit was done 24 after the fact, I don't -- a lot of times it's done because 25 you don't know how much you're going to end up -- and I'm 1-26-04 125 1 saying, I mean, a huge -- I mean, a tremendous amount of 2 Kerr County is developed in the floodplain, and I think a 3 lot of those permits are done. When Little League was 4 working on some stuff, they wanted us to get them -- work 5 with Voelkel and Charlie, whoever all the people were; they 6 wanted us to approve the concept, because it wasn't going to 7 be a problem, because the actual permit was done after the 8 fact. So, the fact that it's done after the fact doesn't 9 mean that anyone intended to do anything illegal, because 10 sometimes you don't know the exact fill, but I think the 11 floodway issue is a lot different. I mean, if they built in 12 the flood -- floodplain and floodway are very different 13 animals. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Certainly. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And if it's in the 16 floodway, then there was deception, whatever else you want 17 to call it, 'cause it's not correct. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: My point is, irrespective, 19 if -- if the person applying must establish that the place 20 where they intend to put the fill is not in the floodway as 21 a condition to getting that permit, obviously, they didn't 22 do that. We don't know where it is. But if there's a 23 requirement -- 24 MR. JOHNSTON: We don't know where it is. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: It's at least in the 1-26-04 126 1 floodplain, if not in the floodway. 2 MR. JOHNSTON: In an unstudied area, it's up 3 to the developer to have a study done to prove it's not in 4 the floodway. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6 MR. JOHNSTON: And there's no evidence he's 7 done that. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Fox? 9 MS. FOX: A documentation is in the file. I 10 don't believe, based on what the current Floodplain 11 Administrator just stated -- and please correct me if I'm 12 incorrect, but that he has studied it as thoroughly as I 13 have. The documentation to prove the question that you just 14 asked is there. It's in black and white. It's hard copy; 15 it's not hearsay. There is documentation to also prove that 16 other elements that were discussed just now by Commissioner 17 Letz can be proven as well, and they are attorney documents 18 on a copy -- you know, letterhead. So, I -- I personally 19 believe there is enough there to have it revoked, and I am 20 willing to present that to the County Attorney. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I would encourage you to do 22 so. 23 MS. FOX: And I ask that nothing else be 24 done, as far as giving a variance or granting any permits, 25 until I have a reasonable amount of time for my legal 1-26-04 127 1 counsel and myself to present that to the County Attorney 2 based on his timetable. Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Based on whose timetable? 4 MS. FOX: The County Attorney. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 MS. FOX: He's very hard to get ahold of, and 7 he does not return calls in a timely fashion sometimes. 8 He's a busy man, I presume. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: There's a motion and a second 10 directing the County Attorney to proceed forthwith on this. 11 Is -- for the enforcement? Any further question or 12 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 13 your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Item 13 is 18 consideration and discussion of the findings of the County 19 Engineer and County Attorney on the status of investigating 20 the citizen's complaint that development at the end of 21 Cardinal Hill Road will cause rainwater runoff to adversely 22 impact private property or public right-of-way. Similar 23 issue here, it appears. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Similar issue. It 25 doesn't involve the floodplain itself or the floodway, but 1-26-04 128 1 it is a similar issue in that it may cause rainwater runoff 2 to exacerbate flooding problems downstream, and that same 3 thing. I'd like to hear from the County Attorney and then 4 the County Engineer on it. 5 MR. FEARY: The regulatory authority over 6 this would be our Subdivision Rules. Except for the fact 7 that, at this point, all we know is that there's a road back 8 in there, and there's no other -- we don't have anything 9 else to substantiate that it is a subdivision. They're just 10 cutting a road through there, so it doesn't rise to the 11 level -- that would be like somebody cutting a new road 12 through their ranch, and so it doesn't rise to the level of 13 Subdivision Rules applying yet. And, again, we don't have 14 -- it's not -- there's no indication it's in the floodplain 15 or the floodway. We don't have authority there. The only 16 remedy at this point would be the private property owners 17 who would be harmed by this activity. Now, if this -- this 18 project reaches the level of a subdivision, then there are 19 regulations within our sub -- provisions in our Subdivision 20 Regulations to address improvements to divert water, and 21 then we can look at it from that aspect. At this point, I 22 don't think we have anything to go on, on this particular 23 project. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do we know who owns 25 that land? 1-26-04 129 1 MR. FEARY: I don't know. Do you know who 2 owns that? 3 MR. JOHNSTON: David had a name. He called 4 someone; he had a name, but someone out-of-county owns it. 5 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Can you help us, Ms. Fox? 7 MS. FOX: Yes. The name is -- a husband and 8 wife, Larry and Nancy Gibson. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Do you know where 10 they're from, Ms. Fox? 11 MS. FOX: Yes. They reside in San Antonio. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 13 MR. FEARY: Mr. Motley did have some 14 extensive conversations Friday with another attorney. I 15 just -- I don't have that information, but he has followed 16 up on that. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Essentially, at this point, 18 though, it's your conclusion at the present time there's no 19 violation of floodplain regulations or Subdivision Rules 20 that the County has an interest in? 21 MR. FEARY: That is correct, because it's not 22 a subdivision. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not a platted 24 subdivision of record. 25 MR. FEARY: Well, it doesn't look like 1-26-04 130 1 anything that's being done out there at this point rises to 2 the level of meeting the definition of "subdivision." 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 4 MR. FEARY: If they start breaking it up, 5 then it -- if things change markedly -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's -- I presume the 7 County Engineer is going to write a letter to this property 8 owner just advising them of our Subdivision Rules? I mean, 9 I think that -- 10 MR. JOHNSTON: I think the County Attorney 11 was going to bring them a letter. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: County Attorney is? As 13 long as -- seems that the course of action is, if there's 14 concern there, is that we inform them that we have rules and 15 that we expect -- if he is doing a subdivision, he needs to 16 comply with the rules, and we'll have to do them after the 17 fact if he's doing things ahead of time. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Based on all that, 19 it sounds like there's no room for action at this time. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Not at this particular point. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'd encourage the 22 County Engineer and the County Attorney, to the extent that 23 he's needed, to stay on top of it in case they start 24 evolving into a subdivision. 25 MR. FEARY: Exactly. It could go that 1-26-04 131 1 direction, and we would have -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I will make a comment. I 3 know we have some concerned citizens right there; that we 4 rely on them to get the information to us. I mean, we 5 can't, obviously, monitor every piece of property in Kerr 6 County and see what people are doing with it. I mean, 7 it's -- you know, we rely on citizens in the area to let us 8 know, and I'm sure our citizens in this neighborhood will. 9 MS. FOX: May I -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, Ms. Fox? 11 MS. FOX: I believe that, at this point in 12 time -- I don't believe; I know, but I cannot discuss it. 13 However, nothing is going on over there at this time, 14 because the owners are involved in litigation. So -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that pending here in this 16 county? 17 MS. FOX: Yes. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Or do you know? 19 MS. FOX: Yes, sir. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I assume there's no 21 further action or motion to be offered? Let's move on to 22 the next item, consider and discuss the finding of the 23 County Engineer and County Attorney on the status of 24 investigating a citizen's complaint that the operation of a 25 caliche pit in Wood Trails Subdivision will cause rainwater 1-26-04 132 1 runoff to adversely impact private property and/or public 2 right-of-way. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This -- I'm asking 4 for the same input and advice from -- on this issue as on 5 the previous ones from the County Engineer and the County 6 Attorney. I do want to point out that I think "caliche pit" 7 is a common terminology used for the mining of caliche, the 8 -- the gathering of caliche. This is not a pit. This is 9 the removal of a ridge, and there's no pit there. It's 10 going to collect water there. If it should -- if it does 11 indeed cause additional rainwater runoff, it's going to come 12 down the hill from this -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's stripping the 14 side of a hill, right? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Right. 16 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah. We looked at it from 17 the -- you know, the perspective of staying on the county 18 road. We couldn't go out there and do detailed looking at 19 it; private -- private lot. It's hard to tell his intent. 20 It could be, you know, development of leveling out his lot 21 for -- for building a structure or building of some kind, or 22 it -- you know, it could be something else, but it's hard to 23 determine that just by looking at it. As far as the water 24 runoff, it's hard to tell exactly the size of the 25 development. If it's over an acre, it would come under the 1-26-04 133 1 T.C.E.Q. stormwater runoff rules for -- pollution prevention 2 rules. It's probably a toss-up whether it's an acre or not; 3 it's about that size. So, that's kind of the background. 4 Do you have anything to add on that? 5 MR. FEARY: Really, no. Just looking at it, 6 it doesn't look like a whole acre is involved there. 7 Basically, he's cutting into the side of the hill, and it 8 might accelerate some of the runoff, but the amount of water 9 coming down there is probably going to be the same. It's 10 just where it comes -- the angle that the slope comes down 11 is just digging into the side of that hill. The only thing 12 that I noticed out there that's even possible is that some 13 of the dirt has washed down, and it's -- there's a little 14 bit of it on top of the county road, and there's some 15 potential Class C for failure to remove injurious material 16 from a road. Mud can be considered injurious if it's likely 17 to cause an accident. But that's as far as -- that's as 18 close as I could get to a violation out there, from what I 19 saw. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mike, at our last 21 meeting, the County Attorney stated that if T.C.E.Q. had 22 that authority, we had that authority. 23 MR. FEARY: On the stormwater? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He said anything -- he 25 said if the State had it, we had it. That was his comment. 1-26-04 134 1 I questioned him on it; he repeated it. So my question now 2 is, is that the opinion? Or was that an incorrect statement 3 by the County Attorney? 4 MR. FEARY: I don't know. I'll -- we'll get 5 together and find that out. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you really expect 7 him to answer that? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean, you know, 9 the County Attorney's office made the comment that if the -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why not? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- State has the 12 authority to do something, the County has that same 13 authority. And I questioned him, 'cause I didn't think that 14 was a correct statement, and he -- 15 MR. JOHNSTON: I think we could notify the 16 State. I think they've already been notified by some of the 17 neighbors. 18 MR. FEARY: The County's designated for a lot 19 of functions; I don't know if that's universal or not. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just trying to 21 clarify -- I was surprised by his comment, and I'd like it 22 clarified. 23 MR. FEARY: We'll do that. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's important, 25 because we have seen today that we do have authority to 1-26-04 135 1 remedy issues like this if it's in the floodway or the 2 floodplain. And the question here is, do we have the 3 authority to -- to remedy similar situations that are not in 4 the floodplain? 5 MR. FEARY: Correct. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think it 7 needs -- if you could ask -- or relay it to the County 8 Attorney, you know, that if T.C.E.Q. has authority, does 9 that mean we have the same authority to do the same thing? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He said we do. Well, 12 that's what he said, though. And we're relying on him, and 13 he said we did, so... 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further on this item, 15 gentlemen? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm hoping we do. 17 Does anybody want to speak on this item? Okay. We'll move 18 on. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move on to Item 15 20 quickly, before we take our lunch break. Consider and 21 discuss the progress of efforts to remove solid waste from 22 the Wood Trails Subdivision. Commissioner Nicholson? 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The Environmental 24 Health Manager's here, and he'll address that. 25 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. We did an inspection 1-26-04 136 1 last week. It was Mr. North and myself. We visited the 2 site -- let me see, six sites in that subdivision. We found 3 some problems. We found some illegal dumping in some sites, 4 and we took pictures. I have pictures; we documented 5 everything. Mr. North is now working on the legal case, and 6 see if we're going to file any charges or anything with the 7 J.P. court. I got information on what we found on those 8 sites, and I got pictures of the same if you wish to see 9 them. Probably won't address names or locations at this 10 time, yet. We found metal -- all kinds of metal from 11 automobiles, boats, trailers, welding supplies. We did find 12 used motor oil spills on the ground, automotive batteries 13 with open cell caps leaking into it, trash. We found all 14 kinds of goodies on that. So, do you want me to go through 15 each site and describe more or less what we found? I can do 16 that. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, for my 18 benefit, no. I mean, I think just the -- you know, the fact 19 that you're pursuing it is all that -- 20 MR. ARREOLA: We're working on it. We spoke 21 with at least a couple of the property owners, and they 22 agreed to clean it up. We have a follow-up inspection order 23 scheduled. One of them we're going to look at this week. 24 The other one we get in two weeks, and the third one is -- 25 it was already in the process of cleaning up when we showed 1-26-04 137 1 up. So, we're going to go and look at it again anyway, but 2 we -- questions? 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do I understand that 4 one of the property owners agreed to evict a tenant? 5 MR. ARREOLA: He's been evicted already, and 6 now the property owner is doing the cleanup. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Willingly? 8 MR. ARREOLA: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The site where it 10 was alleged that a commercial trucking operation was dumping 11 oil on the ground, did you learn anything about that? 12 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. We -- we got 13 pictures of that. There's batteries also in there. I 14 didn't find any oil spills, but I find a lot of containers 15 with used oil. I spoke with that person, and he agreed to 16 clean it up, take those hazardous waste products to be 17 correctly disposed. And he's on our agenda to go and look 18 at again. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think I agree with 20 Commissioner Letz that there's probably no court orders 21 needed on this issue at this time, but I would encourage you 22 to aggressively follow up and see if we can't get that 23 subdivision cleaned up. 24 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir, we're doing that. 25 And, like I said, we got six sites that we are looking at, 1-26-04 138 1 and we got three more scheduled to go and investigate. We 2 also spoke with the representative of the neighbors in the 3 area, and we let her know verbally, or at the outcome of the 4 investigation, that -- where we are. We'll probably get her 5 also a written report once it's all completed. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think that, if you 7 haven't looked at it -- and I'll visit with you about 8 this -- there's another site close by that's on the other 9 side of Goat Creek Road that may need some attention. 10 MR. ARREOLA: Is that right? On Goat Creek? 11 Yeah, we did look at that one too. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Good. Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One of the assertions 14 when we heard this last was that there was some -- there was 15 broken water pipes and -- and it was asserted that the 16 County went in and replaced the water pipes and left the old 17 pipes there. That's really not a true assertion, 'cause we 18 don't do that. But my question is, do we know which water 19 company is responsible for whatever took place? 20 MR. ARREOLA: We didn't find that. We -- 21 MR. ODOM: I authorized our people to go by 22 and pick it up off of that right-of-way, dispose of it. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's already been 24 picked up? 25 MR. ODOM: Well, to my knowledge. That's 1-26-04 139 1 what I said to do. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, good. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, they did it, I'm 4 sure. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think we have a 6 neighborhood representative here -- subdivision 7 representative. Do you want to -- 8 MS. JENTSCH: I'm not a representative; I'm 9 just a concerned neighbor. And I want to thank you and you 10 so very much. We needed your intervention. And, if I 11 might, some of the things that seems to me that pertain to 12 us she so eloquently brought up to you, and I would think I 13 want to discuss it with an attorney as well, if we need to. 14 And I understand that the man that's doing this in the 15 subdivision I live in, we have some recourse. But the ones 16 that are outside of the subdivision, which would be the 17 trucking person and the -- right, and the dump as you come 18 in -- oh, this is getting no easier for me. Excuse me. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Would you identify 20 yourself -- 21 MS. JENTSCH: She's such a natural. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Would you identify 23 yourself for the court reporter? 24 MS. JENTSCH: Yes. I'm Beth Jentsch, and I'm 25 nervous. I don't know how y'all do this. 1-26-04 140 1 MS. FOX: Don't be nervous. 2 MS. JENTSCH: My shy gene immediately comes. 3 At any rate, I want to address something you said earlier, 4 that you were interested in the moneys. And I want to 5 assure you, for the -- that's what you're interested in, how 6 it would affect you money-wise. And I can assure you -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about 8 the tax thing now, right? 9 MS. JENTSCH: Money -- just money for the -- 10 our area. And I can -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Economic development. 12 MS. JENTSCH: Just money coming into the 13 area. If someone's coming from the west side of the country 14 anywhere -- the stringent laws that they have in California, 15 if a woman's coming in, let's say, in a big motor home, in a 16 $100,000 one, and she pulls off to the west and she goes 17 down that lovely Goat Creek Road, and she's thinking, "Boy, 18 maybe we'll buy a little house here for an investment," and 19 as soon as she goes around that corner and sees that trashy 20 mess with no fencing, she's not going to want to do it. 21 They'll just say, "Turn around." And they'll say, "Okay, 22 let's turn up this road right here; we'll check a little 23 area." The first street you turn up is the trucking -- the 24 trucker, and they're out there on a dirt field, no -- no 25 concrete. They're changing oil, which is a little bit from 1-26-04 141 1 Goat Creek. Which, incidentally, is -- everybody, if you're 2 not on a well, you're going to be drinking and bathing in it 3 and cooking in it. 4 So, I mean, there -- there is some type of 5 money loss if something isn't done for these two things, 6 'cause they're in the entryway. It's not way out in the 7 backwoods; these are right -- the first thing that you come 8 to. And had I known when I bought here -- the reason I had 9 no idea, it was summer, and there was some foliage. Well, I 10 didn't come -- we didn't sell our home until I came in the 11 winter. And, lo and behold, I drive up and there's a 12 junkyard at the entry. And then the home -- it was a lovely 13 little home before the truckers decided -- but if they could 14 just -- if the truckers that are -- incidentally, are in a 15 residential area, if they could just put a fence and a pad 16 and a retaining thing for the oil changes they're doing, 17 because there have to be laws in this country to stop that. 18 Thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 20 MS. JENTSCH: Oh, and thank you. I'll vote 21 for you any time, anywhere. (Laughter.) For governor. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't have a 23 motion. We don't need one, I don't think. And I want to 24 comment that I hear that Miguel's doing good work on 25 O.S.S.F., and I can see that we're getting more responsive 1-26-04 142 1 and more aggressive action going on the solid waste, and 2 just keep up that kind of pace. And -- 3 MR. ARREOLA: Thank you, sir. And we'll -- 4 we'll keep on it. We'll find also good -- some good news in 5 there. There's a few places that used to be bad, according 6 to Mr. North, and now they're clean. We also have pictures 7 of that, everything that is developing. We'll continue with 8 it. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you, Miguel. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Do I hear your tummy 12 growling, Commissioner Baldwin? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm fixing to go eat 14 lunch. Y'all do what you want to do. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Lunchtime. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was just looking at 10 18 and 11. I guess Commissioner 1's leaving. I was going to 19 try to get the Road Administrator back to working on the 20 roads before we do lunch, because I don't think those are 21 very long items. 11, I know, is short. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 10's short too. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go back and pick up Item 24 10, consider the contingencies for cul-de-sac in Court Order 25 28133 and approve the completion of same. That was out on 1-26-04 143 1 Dickey Road, as I recall, where we approved the closing of a 2 road contingent upon the -- 3 MR. ODOM: Specifications. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Wherever we ended -- 5 MR. ODOM: Right. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the public roadway, having 7 a cul-de-sac put in, and I assume that has been done to your 8 satisfaction? 9 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir, very nice job. You see 10 a picture of it. It's complete, and I wanted to bring it so 11 it wouldn't be hanging in the future, ten years down the 12 road or something, and bring it the Court's attention and 13 ask them to confirm the issue of court order confirming the 14 construction required in Court Order 28133, that it's 15 complete. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll make a motion 17 that we have an order confirming the construction required 18 in Court Order 28133. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 22 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 23 discussion? 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll just say that I 25 think this has been a good example of Road and Bridge people 1-26-04 144 1 working cooperatively and effectively with citizens to 2 resolve an issue. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further comments or 4 questions? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 5 your right hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Let's go 10 on to Number 11, consider awarding the annual bids for 11 equipment by the hour, paving aggregate, asphalt emulsions, 12 corrugated metal pipe, black base Type AA, cold mix Type CC, 13 and road base material. 14 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. In the addendums that I 15 have, you can see that on culverts, that the low bid is 16 Wilson. We ask that the Court award that to Wilson 17 Culverts. As a backup is Walter's Supply, which is in 18 Fredericksburg. They are essentially -- Contech is the one 19 that supplies it. The dollars are there, but as a backup, 20 sometimes I need that, so I ask that we recognize those two 21 bids. 22 On base material, that -- I had this divided 23 up a little bit, but James Reeh is low bid on Grade 1, and 24 Grade 2 he is also, in Comfort. But James Reeh must be 12, 25 15 miles outside Comfort, I believe. So, what we've done in 1-26-04 145 1 the past is that Lucky 3 -- I just talked to them. If they 2 are -- that's right out before you get into Center Point 3 there; if that is closer, that we normally look at material 4 in their location. Wheatcraft is on 1341 out here. We have 5 one in -- in Center Point, and then I have one in Comfort. 6 So, I would ask you to authorize to be able to take James 7 Reeh when the haul is correct, Lucky 3, and Wheatcraft. We 8 recognize those three bids as contingent on us being able -- 9 the travel time is one thing that gets us, and I -- by the 10 time we do this, if we recognize these three, that I have 11 that backup and that ability around the county to pick up 12 material. 13 Emulsion oil, that -- Ergon won that bid. 14 Recommendation is Ergon be awarded that bid for emulsion 15 oils and AEP. 16 On asphalt, we had -- we sent out two bids. 17 One was to Martin Marietta, the other one Vulcan. Vulcan 18 was going to bid on it, and for whatever reason -- when I 19 called the salesman to ask why they -- it was sent to San 20 Antonio, and a gentleman had a knee operation and they did 21 not return that bid on black base and CC, our level-up 22 material, as well as PB, Grade 4, which is light natural 23 limestone asphalt. And I would ask that the Court would 24 authorize Martin Marietta as the low bidder for that 25 material. There was also an item -- that was trap rock. 1-26-04 146 1 That is a single-source material. That comes out of Knippa 2 out of Vulcan. They did not bid it; of course, you didn't 3 send it in, but we have -- since that is single-source, I 4 ask the Court to recognize that trap rock as -- as a bid. 5 We have a bid of $20.41 a ton delivered to Kerr County. 6 That is the same material that we've been using that we wish 7 to do in our new program -- that's correct -- out here, as 8 well as Sheppard Rees, is that type of material. It is a 9 very lasting material. Since it is single-source, it's 10 not -- I don't -- I think this is maybe the only place. 11 There may be a place up around Ranger, Texas, and the other 12 one's Stone Mountain, Georgia. So, that is very hard 13 material, and that comes from, my understanding, very deep 14 in the earth, and there's only a few places in the world 15 that has that outcropping, and Knippa, Texas is one of them. 16 So, we would like to use the material and recommend that 17 trap rock be awarded to Vulcan, since it is single-source. 18 Also, you will see that the equipment by the 19 hour, we would ask the Court that our first -- the low bid 20 is Mike Butler. Availability -- Mike is highway work. The 21 next one that you can see -- I think when I added these up, 22 there was $10 difference by the hour with Steve Schwarz and 23 Mike Butler. Rocky Hawkins was third. Edmund Jenschke, Joe 24 Ed Jenschke, and Bobby Jenschke. I would ask the Court to 25 recognize these bids. We will use them in that order and 1-26-04 147 1 availability, should we need this equipment by the hour. 2 Particularly, Bobby Jenschke has bigger equipment, and you 3 can see a big disparity in the bid, but it's because of the 4 size of the equipment, and there are times that we need 5 that. So, I would ask the Court to authorize us to award 6 this in this order, and we will use discretion and be fair 7 in what we do as far as timing. But sometimes we cannot get 8 that and I need a backup, should we have a need for this. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move we approve the bids 10 as presented. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 13 approval of awarding the bids as recommended by the Road 14 Administrator. Any further questions or discussion? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just one. Where's 16 Wilson Culverts located? 17 MR. ODOM: Wilson Culverts is in east Texas 18 around Tyler, back over in that area. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 20 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 21 your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll stand in recess until a 24 quarter till 2:00. 25 (Recess taken from 12:38 p.m. to 1:45 p.m.) - - - - - - - - - - 1-26-04 148 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to 2 order. We went into recess at about 12:30. It's now a 3 quarter till 2:00. The next item on the agenda is -- is 4 Number 16, consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 5 approve Change Order Number 5 to compensate Compton 6 construction for extra rock excavation in the Oak Grove 7 Mobile Home Park, and additional stabilized base to used to 8 cover 10-inch line in Riverhill Golf Course. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When we put the 10 Change Order 4 on the agenda some time ago and approved it, 11 we did so, and that change order was to put in a manhole on 12 Ranchero Road, which essentially would be used in the next 13 phase which is yet to be let, but it will be soon let; we'll 14 be asking for bids. Didn't have to put it there then, but 15 we thought we'd have some extra dollars. It turns out that 16 we don't have extra dollars, and what this will do is to 17 remove the proposed manhole now, take those funds back into 18 the current budget, and put the manhole in where it was 19 originally going to be placed. It will be done, but it will 20 be in the next phase, and the engineering. This would allow 21 us to take care of the Change Order Number 5 for 22 Mr. Compton, who did experience some extra work and 23 equipment time, effort, to get through rock, and he also had 24 some extra expenses involved in putting up the sewer line 25 and the bypass on Riverhill Golf Course. So, that's the 1-26-04 149 1 sense of the change order. Also, some hydro -- dollars will 2 be used for some hydroseeding out there. This will give us 3 excess dollars by putting the $8,000 back into this in the 4 current pot, and go for some extra hookups, probably. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was a motion and 7 second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 9 approve the agenda item -- you're deleting previously 10 approved Change Order 4 and approving Change Order 5? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any question or discussion? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. The -- my question 14 is, it appears to me by the backup that these are just 15 conditions that were not expected in the -- you know, in the 16 work. And I look at that as bidding error, not change order 17 material. Unless the contract specified that if he hits 18 rock, there's an additional charge or something of that 19 nature -- to that effect. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good point. It could 21 be argued that way, that he maybe misbid. 'Cause our whole 22 terrain is full of rock, and everybody knows it. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, I mean, the other 24 side of it, just to, I mean, play both sides of the fence on 25 this one, their bid was substantially lower than the next -- 1-26-04 150 1 next bid, so with this we could be ten times this change 2 order and still come out cheaper than it would be to go with 3 the second low bid. But it's just -- my point, I guess, is 4 he did bid it. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And more real than 6 that is, the digging of the rock that's covering up the 7 10-inch line, surely you would know how -- what -- how much 8 fill it's going to take to cover up the line. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would have thought 10 so. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Anything to do with 12 running into extra rock or anything. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He says it's -- the 14 difference in the submitted cost of the stabilized base is 15 $2,600 -- I guess that, too, could be a bidding error. Fact 16 of the matter is, he ran into these expenses, and my thought 17 is we need to get this phase done and get these things 18 behind us, 'cause we won't be experiencing these things in 19 the next phase. These are some extra special things that we 20 only had to do in Phase I, Riverhill being one, and the 21 laying the line down, putting the line in down to Nimitz 22 line. These things we will not experience in the next 23 phase. I would like to get it done. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't -- I mean, 25 before -- before I vote for it, I need to hear, I guess, 1-26-04 151 1 more of the details. I don't mean to be picky, but -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Basically, that if the 3 contract provided for additional costs in the election 4 encountered and had to be excavated -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or they can be -- or the 6 time -- I mean, if it was based on doing it a certain number 7 of days, then, because of the rock, it can be handled 8 certain ways, but I think that this needs to be addressed in 9 the -- in the contract, that he's entitled to additional 10 funds because of encountered conditions. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I tell you what we'll 12 do. We can bring him in and bring in the engineer who has 13 to certify this too, and let them both talk. Do it next 14 time; we'll bring it back. I'll draw it up. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're going to have a 16 real long next meeting. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's just -- I mean -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's not a big deal 20 for me, but I'll withdraw my second, if that's what 21 everybody wants. If that's necessary. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean I don't know 23 what -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want people to be 25 satisfied with it. I'll bring it back. 1-26-04 152 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything further on 2 that agenda item? Let's move on to the next -- Item 17, 3 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action for the 4 approval of Kerr County Information Technology Policy. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The backup comments, 6 I think, pretty well state it. Of course, the Court may 7 want more time to study this and discuss it. I did submit 8 it to Mr. Tomlinson for his review and to Mr. Branham for 9 his review, and it's before you. If the Court needs more 10 time to study it and wants to talk about it, whichever. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I guess you could look at it 12 one of two ways, Commissioner. One would be, gee, I'd like 13 to take a whole lot of time to study it, but another one 14 would be, we got to start somewhere, and it's going to have 15 to be changed at some point down the line when we find out 16 where, and we don't know where that is now. And we can 17 change it where we need to later. Well -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's correct, 19 Judge. And, you know, the case was made to us quite 20 substantially that there are abuses within the use of our 21 technology which result in extra expenses and misuse of 22 equipment. So, this is a starting point. It is a set of 23 policies that, if adhered to, might make it a little bit 24 easier, and a little more difficult for people to do that. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is. When I first 1-26-04 153 1 looked at it, I -- I didn't like it at all, 'cause I felt 2 like it was intrusive on our elected officials and 3 department heads. The more I -- the more I look at it, I 4 like -- some of it, I like a lot. Still, I think that it is 5 intrusive on the business of the elected -- other elected 6 officials. I spoke with Mrs. Uecker last week, and she gave 7 me permission to relay a story of how she's handled her 8 office. There was -- she had one employee that was abusing 9 the internet system, and she simply had that computer turned 10 off for 30 days, and told the employee that, you know, if 11 this happens again, there will be major consequences. She 12 handled the problem herself, which, in -- in my opinion, 13 that's the way it should be handled. Now, there's -- 14 there's areas in here that -- that I like. I mean, you 15 know, the things like downloading programs onto County 16 equipment, I agree with that 100 percent. And I -- I don't 17 know how you -- how you would get an elected official to go 18 along with it unless we do pass a policy. There are things 19 in here, like "Kerr County reserves the right to monitor" -- 20 you know, we have -- let's say, you know, you're talking 21 about having our guru sit back in his office and monitor 22 things, that there are some things that float around in the 23 county system that nobody needs to be seeing. I think 24 there's some juvenile issues, reports, bail issues between 25 the District Clerk and the jail, all kinds of things like 1-26-04 154 1 that. And -- and I would think, you know, if you did -- if 2 we did that to where we had an employee that's actually 3 monitoring and reading things, that person needs to be 4 bonded, I would think. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Probably. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You know, it's things 7 like that. Personally, what I would -- and, you know, the 8 disciplinary action part of it in here, 4.6, that "may be 9 subject to disciplinary action up to and including 10 termination of employment," again, that -- we're -- we need 11 to -- in my opinion, we need to leave that up to the elected 12 official, the person that heads up those offices. And then 13 there was part of it that's just kind of goofy. "Do not 14 shout at your reader by writing exclusively in capital 15 letters." We're going to have a government body sit here 16 and tell people what kind of print to use in a note? I 17 mean -- I mean, you know, I'm from Hunt. I grew up out in 18 Hunt; these things seem goofy to me. And I think that we 19 could possibly go through here and choose the things that 20 are good for our county. This is what I'd like to see; I'd 21 like to see us go through and choose the things that are 22 good and do a workshop with the elected officials and 23 department heads, and it would be a suggestion to them, and 24 ask them to go take care of their offices. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's why it says 1-26-04 155 1 "draft" on it, so we can get input. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's just where I'm 3 at on it. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got a few ideas 5 on it, and if we continued to work through it, I would 6 propose some changes, but I sort of like the idea of doing 7 it more deliberately. Most of the changes I would make 8 would deal with personal use of the -- of County computers, 9 and that's what I call a "be no." There'll be no personal 10 use of a County computer. I don't think the elected 11 official or employee ought to be playing blackjack or 12 sending e-mails to your cousin in California or whatever. 13 They ought to be exclusively for County business use. And 14 I'll comment on the solution that -- that the -- that Linda 15 found. My first question to her would be, if the employee 16 could be without the computer for 30 days, why does the 17 employee need it at all? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What was what? 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If the employee can 20 do without the computer for 30 days, why does the employee 21 need it at all? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good question. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I pretty much go along 24 with Commissioner Baldwin's idea of a workshop. I mean, I 25 think we need to have the department heads', elected 1-26-04 156 1 officials' input before I'm willing to vote on it. And 2 whether it's through a workshop or send out a draft copy, I 3 don't care how we get that input. His idea is as good as 4 any. But I want input from the others, 'cause they're the 5 ones that have to do it. And, under the current lack of 6 policy that the County has, the policy is that each 7 department takes care of it themselves. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or don't take care of 9 it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or doesn't. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have no problem 12 with a workshop. That's why I put it on there, to find out 13 which direction you want to go, what you want to have in and 14 what you want to take out. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we had a -- if we 16 have a department or if there's -- if there's a group in the 17 courthouse or an employee in the courthouse that is abusing 18 the system; i.e. pornography, or if an elected official is 19 doing that, unplug the computer. Take -- go in and get the 20 computer and haul it off somewhere else. I mean, I -- I 21 don't get it. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That, again, 23 presumes that the employee doesn't have a real business need 24 to have it. I would unplug the employee if the -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Unplug the employee, 1-26-04 157 1 whoever's abusing it, whether it's an employee or the 2 elected official, either one. I'm just not excluding the 3 elected officials from it. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that if, you 5 know, we -- and I don't have a problem going pretty far with 6 this, 'cause I don't -- I don't use a County computer for 7 anything, so it doesn't make that much -- you know, on the 8 personal use side, I use my own personal computer. But, you 9 know, there are a lot of e-mails that are going around that 10 are, you know, political in nature, or -- or not pornography 11 by any means, but they're jokes, stories. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They're not County 13 business. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're not County 15 business. And -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That is true. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would you like to set 19 a date for a workshop? I'll be happy to do that. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go ahead. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, let's see here. 22 We're proposing a workshop and inviting all department heads 23 and elected officials to participate in discussion of -- of 24 information technology policy for Kerr County, and we'll set 25 that date for -- 1-26-04 158 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 3 o'clock, the next 2 Commissioners Court meeting. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- 3 o'clock, the 4 next Commissioners Court meeting. Why not? Sounds good to 5 me. 6 MS. SOVIL: February 9th. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 2/9, at 3 p.m. 8 That's my motion, Judge. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 11 set a workshop to discuss Kerr County information technology 12 policies with elected officials. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Department heads and 14 elected -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: And department heads and 16 members of the Court for 3 p.m. on February the 9th, '04. 17 Any further question or discussion? All in favor of the 18 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. We're on 23 Number 18, consider and discuss and take appropriate action 24 to approve a resolution prohibiting the use of excessive 25 force by law enforcement agencies within our jurisdiction 1-26-04 159 1 against any individuals engaged in nonviolent civil rights 2 demonstrations. The explanation is that this is a 3 requirement of political subdivisions that receive Community 4 Development Block Grant funds, and that included among those 5 is a one and a half million dollar grant that we're 6 presently getting for the Kerrville South Wastewater 7 Project; maybe others, I don't know. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could be some others 9 forthcoming. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I asked the 12 Sheriff if he knew if we had this in place. If we did, I'd 13 be happy to pull it. He doesn't think we do, but he also 14 was quick to say that this is what he'd do anyhow. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, my only comment on 16 this, of course, we're applying for several grants at our 17 own department. I understand the grant lingo and what they 18 require. I think this is totally -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Useless? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- dumb, unnecessary. 21 There's federal laws, state laws, our own department 22 policies, everything else regarding excessive force. And, 23 you know, numerous deals. But grant people being grant 24 people, they can ask for weird things, anyhow. So -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the State does 1-26-04 160 1 monitor us, and this is one of the things they look at. And 2 if we have it in the file, we have it in the file, and that 3 makes it a little bit better. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty, the only area 5 that I wanted to get into was this -- the County also 6 prohibits the physical barring of any entrance or exit. 7 What does that mean? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I did not see that on 9 that. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, that's the other 11 half. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's not on the -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can't pick people 14 up and you can't -- if they're -- I'm reading what it -- you 15 can't keep people -- if there's something going on in a 16 building, you cannot keep other people out of the building, 17 is what I'm reading. Or you can't keep people from leaving 18 a building. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See? It gets goofier. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, this all has to 22 do with nonviolent civil rights demonstrations. That's your 23 limiter. We're not talking about anything else, just 24 nonviolent civil rights demonstrations. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If the Sheriff thinks 1-26-04 161 1 that he needs to keep someone in a building, I hope that he 2 has the authority to do so. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, I'll be honest, it 4 was -- I can see this getting a little complicated at times. 5 When they had the -- the Support the Military rally out here 6 on the courthouse square here a number of months ago -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: -- there was a person 9 that showed up at that demonstrating against it, which he 10 had every right to be here and to demonstrate against it. 11 But during that, it came real close to fisticuffs, and 12 causing some -- some serious problems out there, at which 13 time I personally approached that young man and asked him if 14 he would leave, okay? I can't force him to, and I wouldn't 15 force anybody to. But to keep violence from happening and 16 people going to jail, okay, at that point I did ask that man 17 to leave. He complied and we had no more problems. I think 18 you would have to be able to do that in a situation to 19 control any type of -- you know, most of these nonviolent 20 civil rights demonstrations all start out to be nonviolent, 21 but it's what happens during it that -- that changes the 22 dynamics of the whole thing, and we're going to take 23 whatever law enforcement action is necessary to control that 24 situation. I mean, you know -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all I wanted to 1-26-04 162 1 hear. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's all we can do. 3 And state law says we cannot use excessive force no matter 4 what we do, okay? But especially during riot situations and 5 anything else, state and federal law both. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You know how I would 7 -- my analogy for this Commissioner, is this is a "George 8 Wallace" clause. Remember when he stood in the door of the 9 Alabama State House and said, "You're not coming in the 10 door"? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Same thing with the University 12 of Mississippi when they were trying to get Meredith -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mississippi as well. 14 That's the way I read it. I would move the resolution. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 17 approval of the resolution. Any question or discussion? 18 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 19 hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We just saved a 25 million and a half. 1-26-04 163 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 19, consider and discuss 2 Kerr County Water Availability Requirements. Commissioner 3 Letz? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the agenda 5 as we're -- or as I have been going through the Subdivision 6 Rules and decided we really ought to put this one and the 7 next agenda item on the agenda, kind of make sure everyone's 8 bringing it up again for review. And I'll start out by 9 giving my personal opinion of what we ought to do with 10 these, and then I'll turn it over to Lon Langley, General 11 Manager of Headwaters, to let him know if -- you know, what 12 he has to say about them. And then, if we can either -- if 13 we go to -- if we do decide to modify them in any kind of 14 substitute way, I think we'll have to go through a public 15 hearing process, or if we wanted to delete them in the 16 public hearing process, but I think it's a good time to get 17 them on the table before we finish up the Subdivision Rules. 18 When we did this, Headwaters wasn't doing much. Since then, 19 Headwaters started doing a lot, and my feeling is that these 20 are totally unnecessary at this point. 21 I think that everything being done -- or, you 22 know some of the things being done or required in here are, 23 I think, unnecessary. Some really don't work real well. 24 From the standpoint of community water systems, we have a 25 requirement that if it's less than 15 connections, that 1-26-04 164 1 Headwaters has to approve it. Well, they really don't have 2 a mechanism to approve the plans of a water system. We 3 asked them to do something they really -- that's not their 4 job. And we get into test wells and things of that nature. 5 The intent was to get data, really, to kind of learn more 6 about the Trinity Aquifer. I think they're getting that 7 data from wells being drilled now; if anyone drills an 8 individual well, those well logs go into this system, so 9 they're going to get data on that area. And based on -- you 10 know, I won't speak for Headwaters by any means, but I think 11 the basic feeling is that if you drill a well anywhere in 12 the county, you're probably going to hit water, you know, 13 and it's probably going to be enough to sustain a house. 14 There are some -- and with the pumping limits that are being 15 put on, I think that now the groundwater is being protected. 16 I do -- if we do keep -- you know, so my recommendation 17 would really be to delete everything, probably, and I will 18 say with the exception of 1.00, 1.01, the second paragraph 19 of 1.02, and 1.03. And the reason -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Are you saying delete 21 those? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, do not. Do not 23 delete those. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do not delete those. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Give us the numbers 1-26-04 165 1 again, please. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 1.00, 1.01, the second 3 paragraph of 1.02 would remain, and then 1.03. And what 4 that does is, it basically says that we are basing our lot 5 size on water availability, and using numbers that I think 6 are accepted by Headwaters, and which were set by Region J, 7 Water Development Board. If you come up with a -- 2.8 8 people and 200 gallons a day, you end up with a 5-acre 9 minimum lot size, and it gives us a justification for our 10 minimum lot size. It doesn't go into -- into -- it's based 11 on the best science we have right now, which is what those 12 numbers calculate out to. So -- and I think there's a 13 reason to leave that that way. If we are ever challenged on 14 our lot size, we have a basis for why we have our lot sizes 15 where they are, at 5 acres for individual ground wells. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: The areas addressed in the 17 Water Availability Requirements as they now exist, if those 18 are eliminated, saving only those portions which you 19 mentioned that tie back to lot size, and considering 20 Headwaters' input and jurisdiction, are there any of the 21 areas covered by the current Water Availability Requirements 22 that will -- that will have a gap as a result of that? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think so. I 24 mean, I think the -- what we have with our -- I mean, what 25 we basically have done, we said if you're having the 1-26-04 166 1 community system, it has to either be -- the design of it 2 has to be approved by T.N.R.C.C. if it's large enough, if 3 it's a public system, and if it's smaller than that, 4 Headwaters is supposed to review it. But it's kind of 5 beyond their -- what they do. And then the other thing it 6 really requires is, if you're going to -- if a subdivision 7 is going to rely on individual wells for their water, test 8 wells -- one or two test wells have to be drilled. And the 9 reason for that was really to get data to Headwaters so they 10 can start getting more information on the Trinity. Well, 11 they're getting data when that first well gets drilled 12 anyway, and there's -- I think Lon can get to this in a 13 minute. The fact that a test well is drilled doesn't mean 14 that a given lot's going to have water or not anyway. I 15 mean, the test wells, because of the nature of the Trinity, 16 are somewhat unnecessary. So I think we're getting -- I 17 think Headwaters is getting the data; therefore, why require 18 the test wells? Which is a burden to the developers from a 19 financial standpoint. Let me turn it over to Lon. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Can I ask you one 21 question? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Certainly. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If I was an 24 individual drilling a well, or if I were a developer wishing 25 to drill wells, what would be the impact on me of abolishing 1-26-04 167 1 the parts that you're speaking about abolishing? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the impact would be 3 if you were a -- if your development had -- I think it's 75; 4 all your tracts were over 15 acres, they're large tracts, 5 you wouldn't have to do anything right now anyway. If you 6 -- if it's a real small subdivision with less than five 7 lots -- I think it's five, you don't have to do anything. 8 But if you're like a -- the Falling Waters, which we looked 9 at fairly recently, or The Reserve, in that subdivision, we 10 are saving that developer one or two test wells -- or would 11 have. I mean, he's drilled his now, but if another 12 development came in, we're saving some up-front costs on 13 drilling some test wells, which may or may not prove 14 anything. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That sounds good to 16 me. I -- it's my sense that we might be just a bit 17 overregulated on water well drilling. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Headwaters -- a 19 lot of it was when we did that, Headwaters didn't really 20 have any rules in place. I'll let Lon -- Lon, do you have 21 any comments? 22 MR. LANGLEY: Sure. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to make a 24 comment while you're walking up here. When we put this in, 25 it was our attempt at -- at protecting groundwater. And 1-26-04 168 1 now -- now that Headwaters Underground Water District -- 2 what's your name? 3 MR. LANGLEY: Lon Langley. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I mean your group. 5 MR. LANGLEY: Headwaters Groundwater 6 Conservation District. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Conservation district. 8 MR. LANGLEY: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Have now taken and -- 10 and started doing what they're supposed to be doing, then 11 we're duplicating. And -- but I think we -- we accomplished 12 what we set out to do, and it was a -- it was a -- it worked 13 for a while. 14 MR. LANGLEY: Thank you for having me. I 15 agree with Mr. Letz, in that the rules may not be necessary. 16 We do have enough rules in place to take care of everything. 17 In -- in my perspective, anyway. We have a restriction on 18 lot sizes. They have to be 5-acre minimum already. That's 19 part of the district, before they can put -- install a well 20 on a property. And the biggest thing that we're interested 21 in is, if a -- a subdivision goes in, you get a public water 22 supplier. If they're drilling out of the Lower Trinity 23 Aquifer, they're allowed 65,000 gallons per acre, per year. 24 And if it's Middle Trinity, it's 50,000 gallons per acre, 25 per year. And that really covers it. And he said when new 1-26-04 169 1 wells go in, we get that data. They report the usages to 2 us, so we -- we know how much they're using out of an area. 3 We get quite a bit of information now, and in the future 4 we'll get more. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Great. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: What about a small community 7 water system, twelve connections? 8 MR. LANGLEY: No difference, as far as we're 9 concerned. If they're -- just depends on the water that 10 they can get out. It just depends on what aquifer they're 11 in, how many acres, how many acres are in their service 12 area. So, if they have 10 acres, well, they will be allowed 13 50,000 or 65,000 times two. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Subject, of course, to 15 Department of Health regulations on -- on the potability of 16 the water, I assume? No? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under 15 connections, no. 18 There's no regulations, I don't believe, unless T.C.E.Q. 19 changed the rules at some point. At one point you had to 20 have over 15 connections to be qualified as a public water 21 system. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: What -- what manner, if any, 23 do -- do the current water availability requirements 24 address, say, a 12-connection -- 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We say they have to be 1-26-04 170 1 approved by Headwaters. We just pass the buck to them. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not really sure they 4 have any ability to -- 5 MR. LANGLEY: We really don't. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That was a problem. 7 We -- see, we pass it off to them, but they don't have 8 the -- the -- the authority, probably, legislatively, or the 9 knowledge as to help us, to really give us feedback on that. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: So, other than the pumping 11 limits, really, those are kind of a no man's land, I guess, 12 then, aren't they? 13 MR. LANGLEY: That's really what the 14 district's concerned about, is how much water's coming out 15 of the ground. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wouldn't we be better 17 served referring it to T.C.E.Q.? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: T.C.E.Q. doesn't want to 19 regulate it unless it's over 15 connections. It is -- it is 20 a -- it's a -- if you're a small water system, you're 21 unregulated. Now, there may be some potability standards. 22 That was when we wrote this. I haven't -- certainly am not 23 versed in all of T.C.E.Q.'s rules. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: There's a break point at which 25 Department of Health requires chlorinators, fenced 1-26-04 171 1 enclosures, storage tanks -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ultraviolet. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- all sorts of stuff. I'm 4 not sure exactly where that is, whether it's at the 15 that 5 you mentioned or -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: -- somewhat less. Is it? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: At 15, yes, sir. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I could see somebody in a 10 small subdivision really rolling the dice about the water 11 they're getting, then. I mean, the question they've got is, 12 "How much are you taking?" But, other than that, it's -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: -- rolling of the dice. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But there's -- but I 16 think that problem exists now, too, because no one has any 17 mechanism to correct it, and this was not a good mechanism 18 to try to fix it. I mean, I don't know how -- I don't know 19 where in county government you would do that, other than -- 20 I mean, it would be better suited to put it probably in 21 Environmental Health Department than it would Headwaters, 22 but I'm not sure that's a good spot, either. I mean, I 23 think that the -- we just -- you know, it's just 24 unregulated, and that's the State's rules. I don't know how 25 you go about -- how a county would go about regulating. I 1-26-04 172 1 think we probably have the legal authority to do it, but I'm 2 not sure. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, the point is, it wasn't 4 in here to start with. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was in here; it just 6 wasn't practical to do anything with it. It felt good to 7 have it in there. So, anyway, if -- you know, from what I'm 8 hearing from -- you know, and this is visiting with Lon, and 9 also I have visited with their president as well. He pretty 10 much concurred with what Lon thought. I put it on the 11 agenda to rewrite it as a one-page document and eliminate 80 12 percent of it. That will -- 'cause we'll have to go through 13 the public hearing process on this, I believe. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm in agreement 15 with you. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you want to go ahead and 18 set it for a public hearing? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd rather get the -- the 20 draft -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: One-page draft? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One-page draft done so we 23 have something to put before the hearing. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything further on 25 this particular agenda item? 1-26-04 173 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Hearing nothing, we'll move on 3 to the next one. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you, Lon. 5 MR. LANGLEY: Thank you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Langley. 7 MR. LANGLEY: Yes, sir. Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Consider and discuss Kerr 9 county Manufactured Home Rental Communities Order. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the agenda 11 for the same reason, and I -- I will note -- the whole Court 12 isn't aware, last time when we adopted this, we got into a 13 lawsuit with the state association over these, and I think 14 that lawsuit has -- may or may not have been resolved. I 15 think we were released, I believe, from it, possibly. But, 16 anyway -- 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What was the essence 18 of the lawsuit? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That we overstepped our 20 authority under the statute. At that time, I believe Sam 21 Spears, a resident in the community, one of my constituents, 22 was on their board; may even be head of their board, of 23 their state association, and that was his feelings. I 24 invited Sam to be here today, but I didn't invite him until 25 Saturday afternoon, and I know he had a pretty busy schedule 1-26-04 174 1 today. He was going to try to get here at 2 o'clock, but 2 evidently he had other things come up. So, I don't want to 3 go too far with this. I would like to get input from him as 4 to where they think we overstepped our authority. These, I 5 think, are very important rules that we keep. A lot of the 6 problem areas from O.S.S.F., solid waste and other things 7 are -- this is our closest way to be on -- or one of our, I 8 guess, stronger ways to control it. If you are renting 9 manufactured homes on property, you bring in two or three of 10 them, start renting them, you come under this provision, and 11 there's -- basically, it's written to be exactly like the 12 Subdivision Rules. And when I called Mr. Spears, I said 13 we're getting ready to redo our Subdivision Rules. When we 14 change all of them, these get changed at the same time, in 15 my opinion, or would -- or need to be, 'cause they still 16 need to track exactly with the Subdivision Rules. So, it's 17 on the agenda really just to make everyone aware that they 18 exist. But we have had some conflict with the state 19 association on these in the past, and I'll continue to 20 try to -- with Mr. Spears, to try to resolve these ahead of 21 time. I will note, when I was reading through them, there's 22 one thing in here that I don't believe is enforceable. 23 Somewhere in here, I thought -- I believe it says that -- 24 it's on utilities. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: 1.03.D, Page 3. 1-26-04 175 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, 1.03.D. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Regulation. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A utility may not provide 4 utility service. I think there's an issue on that, that we 5 may not be -- we may need to delete that paragraph, 'cause 6 the phone companies at this time -- phone, electric, sewer, 7 whatever, they didn't -- they thought that their state rules 8 kind of superseded our county rules on that point, and that 9 they ignored it. So, that probably does need to come out. 10 That's -- like I say, I just put it on the agenda to make 11 everyone aware of it. I'll get with Mr. Spears one-on-one 12 and try to go through them, and we'll bring them back. 13 MR. JOHNSTON: I think the items involved in 14 that lawsuit were changed in the updating of that ordinance. 15 Had to do with the road right-of-way width, and I think that 16 was the main -- as I recall, the main hangup. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's my recollection. 18 They had I think, 60-foot right-of-way width in there. 19 MR. JOHNSTON: Reduce to it 30. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 21 MR. JOHNSTON: Yeah. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: There may have been some other 23 somewhat minor ones, but my recollection of the main issue 24 in that lawsuit was the right-of-way. 25 MR. JOHNSTON: That was the main technical 1-26-04 176 1 issue. I think they just didn't like the way mobile homes 2 were referred to in some of the write-up, too. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Speaking of Mr. Spears, 4 Mr. Spears is here. 5 MR. SPEARS: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just said that I 7 grabbed you late Saturday and told you that these -- this 8 was on the agenda today, and I knew you had a very busy day 9 today. Where we were was that, you know, we tried -- we 10 really want to get input from you or the association related 11 to the manufactured rental home communities. Our intent is, 12 you know, as it was previously, to track our Subdivision 13 Rules related to infrastructure. And, you know, unless 14 there's some areas that we really need to change, to not 15 change these very much. There is a -- we did discuss 16 briefly, there's a provision related to utility companies 17 that probably would be deleted, because we don't have any 18 authority to tell utility companies what to do. But, other 19 than that, we'd leave them as they're currently written, but 20 they would be adjusted as we redo our Subdivision Rules; 21 things like drainage studies may be a little bit stricter, 22 as they would be in our Subdivision Rules. It will track 23 exactly along with our Subdivision Rules. And if you 24 have -- any comments that you have as to whether you think 25 they're good, bad, or indifferent the way they're currently 1-26-04 177 1 written? 2 MR. SPEARS: Currently, as of -- they were 3 written what, two years ago? Or -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. And the draft that 5 was approved by the Court had a right-of-way width at 6 30 feet. That was one of the -- 7 MR. SPEARS: Right. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- one of the points of 9 contention, that we had 60 foot in our Subdivision Rules. 10 And we did drop these back to 30 foot. 11 MR. SPEARS: Right. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, other than that, you 13 know, there'd be no changes, other than how we change our 14 Subdivision Rules. And I don't think we're anticipating any 15 changes in road construction in our Subdivision Rules. Like 16 I said, there will be some drainage changes. But, in your 17 opinion, there -- 18 MR. SPEARS: I don't -- you know, without -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Going back -- 20 MR. SPEARS: Without going through them 21 completely again, I don't know of anything right offhand. 22 The right-of-way easement was a big deal; 60-foot 23 right-of-way was a -- was a big deal to us. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And it's 30 foot 25 under the current. 1-26-04 178 1 MR. SPEARS: And the original language in the 2 cover that we discussed earlier, that I -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 4 MR. SPEARS: -- had a real problem with. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We resolved that, though, 7 I believe. 8 MR. SPEARS: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As to the -- we're trying 10 to be positive related to these communities. 11 MR. SPEARS: Right. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Well, I will get 13 with you and get a draft of these to you with the changes, 14 'cause we'll have to delete that one provision. We'll have 15 to do a public hearing on that, but we'll get those to you, 16 and probably along with the anticipated changes in 17 Subdivision Rules, to make sure that there's not something 18 that is just unworkable from your standpoint. 19 MR. SPEARS: Just out of curiosity, you had 20 said something about the water -- water rights in the 21 Subdivision Rules, the water availability in Subdivision 22 Rules. Is the County sticking with the 5-acre minimum? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 5-acre minimum for the 24 lot size will be the same, but we're pretty much going to 25 eliminate the water availability requirements. Headwaters 1-26-04 179 1 has enough rules in place now that they're -- let them deal 2 with groundwater. They're better at doing that than the 3 Commissioners Court is. But the lot size would stay at 4 5 acres minimum, or average. 5 MR. SPEARS: And that's with a private water 6 system and a private sewer system? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 8 MR. SPEARS: Okay. And that's contrary to 9 the -- the State's version is what, 2 acres with a -- with a 10 private water system and private sewer system? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think the state 12 has a minimum. I don't know. I mean, I don't think the 13 state has a subdivision lot size requirement. Or -- 14 MR. SPEARS: My understanding was 1 acre with 15 a conventional system and 2 acres with a -- with an aerobic 16 system. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For a -- a standard 18 subdivision or a rental? 19 MR. SPEARS: For a standard subdivision. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't believe that is 21 there, but, I mean, the -- the water availability 22 requirements, we will still keep the language in there that, 23 "based on the groundwater management area that Kerr County 24 lies within." We're going to stay with that. Basically, 25 it's for recharge purposes, it takes 5 acres for a family -- 1-26-04 180 1 average family. And that matches Headwaters, so even if we 2 didn't -- even if we change it, Headwaters isn't going to 3 let a well get drilled, anyway. 4 MR. SPEARS: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. Well, 6 appreciate you coming. 7 MR. SPEARS: Sorry we were running a little 8 late. I didn't think you'd get to that till later, so -- 9 JUDGE TINLEY: We didn't, either. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who's that with you? 11 AUDIENCE: Hello, Mr. Baldwin. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hey, Fred. 13 AUDIENCE: How are you? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there anything else on this 15 particular agenda item? If not, we'll move on. Item 21, 16 consider and discuss the approval of contract between Kerr 17 County and Region J and authorize County Judge to sign the 18 same. 19 (Discussion off the record.) 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is a form contract 21 that the County Attorney's office came up with to have 22 interlocal agreement between Region J and the County. And I 23 ran it by U.G.R.A. because they serve as the political 24 subdivision for Region J. They have -- they're happy with 25 it. Region J is happy with it, so it's ready to go forward. 1-26-04 181 1 But I probably will not vote on this, considering I will be 2 signing it for Region J. I don't know that it's appropriate 3 for me to vote on both sides of it. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner Letz, in 5 the "Whereas" section, Senate Bill 1 was passed by the 75th 6 -- what year was that? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: '97. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 1997. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there a dollar 10 figure in there? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $35,000. These are 12 budgeted. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 17 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 18 raising your right hand. 19 (Commissioners Baldwin, Williams, and Nicholson voted in favor of the motion.) 20 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I abstain. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: You got him abstaining? Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hey, we're rolling 25 now, man. 1-26-04 182 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Item 22, consider and 2 discuss status of the burn ban. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Based on the recent 4 rains, I'll make a motion that we cancel the burn ban that's 5 currently in place. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'll go for that. 7 But, however, would it just -- procedurally, would it be 8 easier to -- to leave it in place, and lift it so that we 9 can easily reestablish the burn ban without having to have a 10 Commissioners Court meeting? And if it's not easier, then 11 it doesn't make any difference to me. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When does this expire? 13 MS. SOVIL: 90 days. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: From when? 15 MS. SOVIL: December. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: December 8th? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It would expire in 18 March. I'm kind of wondering the same thing. Why couldn't 19 -- why couldn't we just -- each precinct suspend 20 indefinitely? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think one of the 22 reasons -- and I see the Sheriff -- is that it's confusing 23 when we're -- when we change it back and forth; it's hard on 24 those that are enforcing it. And I think if we just cancel 25 it, then it's a clean slate. And if, you know, we get into 1-26-04 183 1 a situation -- it's just -- to me, it's cleaner. I think 2 that, you know, we need to be mindful of the weather 3 conditions, and certainly, as we go into the spring, the 4 winds. But the ground moisture is such that, certainly, for 5 the next two to three weeks, we shouldn't have any problems. 6 I mean, and, clearly, you're not supposed to be burning on 7 days with winds like we have today, anyway. I mean, there 8 has to be some common sense. But if we suspend the burn 9 ban, they're going to still have to have some common sense. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm okay with that. 11 What experience I've had with it so far is we can always 12 find three of us and call a -- a meeting in two hours if 13 we -- if conditions deteriorate rapidly. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we cancel the -- 15 have I already done that? 16 MS. PIEPER: Yes, you have. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Before there's a vote, 19 may I make a comment, just on at least today? So far 20 today -- and, of course, my pager goes off anytime -- 21 there's been five out-of-control burns in this county today. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Really? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Because of the wind. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because of the wind. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Two grass fires this 1-26-04 184 1 morning and three brush fires in the last two hours. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That shows that not 3 everybody -- 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As far as canceling it 5 now, I'd just -- that's for information for y'all. That's 6 quite a few in one day that we're having. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's the wind. I 8 hear you, Rusty, but people need to burn. It's important. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Oh, I -- 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: They just don't use 11 good judgment. They burn when they got a 20 mile-an-hour 12 wind. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm not going to get on 14 either side of this issue. I just think that's information 15 today, and I notice there was a couple yesterday. But five 16 so far today is what they have been toned out to, three 17 out-of-control brush and two out-of-control grass. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think one of the 19 things that -- the fact that we go on and off these burn 20 bans, people get concerned and they burn maybe when they 21 shouldn't burn. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: People get very 23 confused, as well as my own department gets very confused, 24 whether we are or aren't. We end up calling the hotline. 25 Sometimes we get that going; sometimes it's not been 1-26-04 185 1 programmed in. It is extremely confusing. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can tell you, the 3 bun ban is the worst thing that this Court does. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with that. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The dumbest thing that 6 we do, because we're telling people what to do with their 7 own stuff. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with that. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: However, there are 10 some goofy people out there, that -- not you, but you can 11 certainly report that -- that burn under the conditions that 12 are out there right now. And that's dumb, dumb, dumb. 13 People don't use common sense and are not responsible for 14 their own property or their neighbor's property, and it just 15 -- it's idiotic that we have to go through this and tell 16 people what to do; it's crazy. However, we do it. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we have a motion and 18 second to eliminate the burn ban. Any further question or 19 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 20 your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Is this the entire 1-26-04 186 1 90-day deal y'all are eliminating? You'll have to redo the 2 whole thing? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Burn ban is off. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: All right. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It can be 6 reinstituted at any time. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, as long -- it's 8 just when it goes to different precincts, it gets awful 9 confusing. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're trying to 11 coordinate that. When we go on and off, we're trying to do 12 them the same day, at the same time and all that. But -- 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We appreciate that. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hasn't worked yet. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item, Number 23, consider 16 and discuss proposals submitted and approval of 17 telecommunications equipment lease or purchase for the 18 Extension Office, and authorize County Judge to sign the 19 same. The proposals are in your materials. The one from 20 Border to Border is a straight-out purchase with an 21 open-ended maintenance on an hourly basis, plus equipment. 22 Those are purchases. The others with Kerrville Telephone -- 23 Kerrville Telephone Business Systems, there are several 24 proposals offered there. One is a -- a straight buyout. 25 Another one is a three-year lease with maintenance. Another 1-26-04 187 1 is a five-year lease with maintenance. All the proposals 2 are laid out there, and if you want to buy out, then you can 3 buy into the maintenance at $44 a month, which is not a 4 whole lot more than $57 a month to lease the equipment and 5 get the maintenance with it for five years. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What do you recommend, 7 Judge? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you got all the options 9 there. I'd defer to the Auditor. He's had more experience 10 with these particular type matters than have I. The only 11 thing I would mention is, we're dealing with 12 telecommunications equipment, and sometimes the state of the 13 art moves pretty quick. And -- 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I will make one comment 15 in that. The one we have at the office is a lease for all 16 the Sheriff's Office, the regular phones, and it's a lease 17 with the maintenance. And when we have problems, they do 18 replace them immediately at no cost, whether it's our main 19 telephone, switchboard telephone, or any of the other -- or 20 even telephone cords. They will bring them out the same day 21 and replace them. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What do we have in 23 this courthouse? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Same. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Same thing. 1-26-04 188 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We lease them? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah. If -- if you're 3 in a business situation, a lease gives you the advantage of 4 being able to write it off. We're not in that same 5 situation, 'cause we're not a 1040-type taxpaying entity, 6 but -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why did we have a 8 separate system out at the Extension? Why couldn't that be 9 just a -- a part of our main contract with Kerrville 10 Telephone Company? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: It's a separate installation 12 out there. Maybe Tommy can answer that. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, it -- when that 14 facility came online, we already -- courthouse was already 15 under an agreement, so they -- I think at the time that was 16 constructed, they -- the Court just did a five-year lease 17 agreement with -- for a separate system, and that's why it's 18 there. But they can't be part of our system, because this 19 is a computerized system here at the courthouse, and -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's not? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: That's not. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Got -- got a separate system 23 out at Road and Bridge, too. We'll be looking at that one 24 here pretty quick. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: The only thing, if you -- if 1-26-04 189 1 you choose to purchase, you will have to have a budget 2 amendment, because we don't have -- we don't have anything 3 in the budget to purchase a system for -- for that 4 department. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree with the Judge; I 6 don't think -- I mean, I prefer to lease these than buy 7 them. But I'm trying to figure out which one's the best 8 deal. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you got a five-year 10 lease; you're paying $57 a month, and presumably $44 a month 11 of that is going to the maintenance feature. Three-year, 12 you're paying $68, so that's another $11 a month. Here, 13 again, $44 is going to maintenance. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Border to Border -- 15 they're both buyout? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: They're both purchases. 17 They're not leases. Those are straight-out purchases. 18 That's new equipment. Now, what -- what they would -- what 19 we're dealing with out there is the equipment that's in 20 place, that's not new equipment. You know, if it breaks, 21 they'll -- they'll switch out and put in the new instrument 22 or whatever for a replacement, but that's the existing 23 equipment out there, just to continue under a lease with the 24 maintenance. The Border to Border is -- is new equipment, 25 but that's a straight purchase. One is with voicemail. The 1-26-04 190 1 one without the voicemail feature is -- is about $1,000, as 2 you can see there. But then, if there's any -- if there's 3 any maintenance or service that has to be done, that's on a 4 straight time basis of $60 a month. That one also would 5 take a budget amendment, would it not, in order to 6 facilitate a purchase? 7 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, we have two 10 choices, buyout or purchase? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Lease. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We don't have a 13 choice of continuing doing what we're doing now? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you don't want to 15 continue what you're doing now, because that was a higher 16 number. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. Yeah, it's -- 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Our lease figure will go down 19 with this. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's currently 113, and 21 if we go to another 60-month, it will be 57 plus 44. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Dumb question. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: No, not plus 44. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's included? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: 57 includes the maintenance. 1-26-04 191 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we get the 57, do 2 we have to spend $1,150 -- $1,149? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So we've got an 5 option right now that can do what we've got and dropping the 6 cost from 113 to 57? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: For -- and that will hold for 8 five years. If we only want to do it for three years, it 9 will come down to 68. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But the -- if the 11 equipment -- if the equipment breaks, it's replaced under 12 the lease? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we accept Option 3 16 with Kerrville Telephone. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go to the 60-month -- 19 well, extended contract. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Lease? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Lease. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: You seconded? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second, yes, sir. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 25 accept the lease proposal from Advance Telecom Systems 1-26-04 192 1 Corporation, d/b/a Kerrville Telephone Business Systems, for 2 five-year lease, including maintenance, at $57 per month. 3 Any further questions or discussion? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- my hesitation is 5 the out clause. If anything in this lease -- if they change 6 or anything like that. Has anyone looked at that? Has the 7 County Attorney's office looked at that? 8 MR. MOTLEY: I've looked at the -- I guess 9 you'd say the sister lease that is going out to Road and 10 Bridge. And Road and Bridge is very happy with the system 11 they have. They've gotten good service out of it, even in 12 bad weather when they had problems, weather-related, 13 act-of-God type stuff, which really doesn't come under their 14 coverage. Road and Bridge has adapted their system 15 specially to make it work with their men in the field. 16 They've got some kind of thing where they can call in. 17 They're happy with theirs. You probably buy brand-new 18 equipment -- probably, you know, like, another six 19 generations ahead of this, you'll probably buy it and pay a 20 fee -- have it installed, and then buy a separate 21 maintenance contract from another company and purchase it 22 for the same. It's possible you could also lease it from 23 other companies, but I don't know any other companies that 24 are in the business of leasing right now. But I'd think if 25 -- you know, if they've been -- I talked to Truby, and she 1-26-04 193 1 said she was real happy with it. And so -- and I need to 2 talk to the people over there, but I -- I don't know -- it's 3 possible that telephone company might want to sell us the 4 equipment, but then again, we would be getting older-model 5 stuff. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, the buyout -- 7 MR. MOTLEY: They don't even make these 8 phones any more. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't you have a 10 dollar buyout at the end of the line? 11 MR. MOTLEY: Right, we'll have the phones 12 after two full lease cycles at Road and Bridge, and be able 13 to buy it for a buck. And, right now -- and I don't know 14 for how long in the past, but they do not manufacture this 15 phone any more, or anything like it. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know I made the motion, 17 but I'm wondering if it's smart to go with a three-year 18 lease, even though it costs $11 a month more, to have a 19 shorter term. Which is better? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm good either way. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the current -- 22 what's the current monthly obligation? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: 113. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Then I think go 25 three. I like three better than five on this kind of 1-26-04 194 1 equipment. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I'll amend my 3 motion to go with the three-year term. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Three-year at $68 a month, for 5 36 months? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: You second that? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any further question or 12 discussion? All in favor of the motion for lease from 13 Kerrville Advance Telecom Systems Corporation, 36-month 14 term, $68 a month, signify by raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Okay. 19 Next item is consider and discuss the liaison committee 20 assignments of the Commissioners Court members for 2004. I 21 put this on, thinking that possibly there may want to be 22 some shaking up or modifications or changes or whatever. 23 Even if there is none, we probably need to add O.S.S.F., or 24 Environmental Health would possibly be a better designation 25 to go down there. What's your pleasure, gentlemen? 1-26-04 195 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. I have a 2 couple of thoughts, believe it or not. I agree that we need 3 to add the Environmental Health, and Mr. Nicholson has 4 been -- has worked with that so closely, getting it over 5 here and getting it established, that he understands the 6 mechanics of it better than anybody at the table, so I'd -- 7 just a suggestion; certainly not a motion. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second that. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'd be glad to do 10 that, but Jonathan's been up to his knees in septic systems, 11 so to speak, and if he would prefer to do it, then I'm -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, I'm more than glad to 13 have you take on sewers. I have my hands full with 14 subdivisions. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's called passing 16 the tank. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other thoughts or 18 suggestions relative to any of those designations? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One that I do have an 20 understanding of -- someone else might, too -- is airport. 21 I don't know if Commissioner Nicholson -- 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm not married to 23 that. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: I think Commissioner Baldwin 25 has an acute interest in that. 1-26-04 196 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have no interest in 2 any airports. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We need to keep 4 Commissioner Williams on there, 'cause he's the one that 5 knows the most about it. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it cumbersome having 7 two? Is it better, or -- I mean, I'm -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: It is having three. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three is definitely a 10 problem. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a problem with 12 three. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, you know, I 14 don't -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the history of 16 two, as you recall, came when Dave's predecessor was there, 17 and it was believed that his aeronautical background might 18 be beneficial. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Why don't we change 20 me to backup, in case Bill's at AACOG or something like 21 that? Then that way, there won't be two of us there. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a pretty good 23 suggestion. Designate Dave as a backup. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Primary and alternate. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just like we do on -- 1-26-04 197 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Actually, I personally 3 think that we need two there, because of where we are, and 4 there's some major changes coming down the pike. I mean, 5 this -- it will -- I think very soon it's going to turn into 6 a big deal. I know that we've been kind of talking about it 7 being a big deal, but I think it will very soon be a big 8 deal. And, in order for us to -- to turn that corner and 9 get that product that we want as a -- at the airport, I'd 10 rather see two guys working on it all the time. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't mind doing it. I 12 just -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean, I'm talking 14 about just until we get it up and running. Then you can go 15 to the alternate thing. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay with me. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's very, very 18 important at this point, in my opinion. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let's leave it alone 20 for now, change it next year. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner, if two's good, 22 three would be great, wouldn't it? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I tried. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 1, 2, 3? Or 2, 3, 1? 25 Leave it alone? That's fine. 1-26-04 198 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Judge? The Law 2 Enforcement/Jail one, not to slam Buster -- Buster, you've 3 been a good liaison, but I'd like to kind of see -- since 4 last year was the first year we did that -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You'd like to see 6 what? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'd like to see it 8 rotate around through the commissioners, give each one of 9 them a chance to actually see what goes on out there. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was going to suggest 11 that. Actually, the Judge needs to be -- I mean, that's why 12 you go with -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: You think I'm the first one 14 going to be there, huh? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you're the one 16 that communicates with them; I don't. So why have my name 17 on it if -- if you're going to be the one? So, I think the 18 Judge ought to be in there. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't care who; I'd 20 just like to see it rotate around, everybody get a chance to 21 see everything that we do out there. I have no problem. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, what's that? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So I'm putting "County 24 Judge," is what I'm writing. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In place of, or in 1-26-04 199 1 addition to you? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In place of. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, you're getting 4 off the hook here, right? How about taking up the library? 5 Would you like to do that? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Been there and done 7 that. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're pretty busy. 9 You're on airport; you're on KEDF -- 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: KEDF is not -- I 11 have not attended the meetings. The Judge has been there 12 every time. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you want me to 14 delete -- I mean -- well, you can leave your name there as 15 an alternate. Environmental Health? Animal Control? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Got most of his puppies in 17 order. Right, Dave? 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't mind 19 switching or giving up one of them and -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How about if I took your 21 airport job? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me take the airport? 24 Okay, I'll do that. I've kind of got myself in the middle 25 of it one way or the other out there, I think. I drive by 1-26-04 200 1 three, four times a day, anyway. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What are you 3 switching with -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just replacing Dave 5 at the Airport Board. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Then he's going to 7 come back next month and whine 'cause he's got too much to 8 do. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. I think you 10 ought to take over the library, too. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, the library is not 13 ready for Jonathan Letz, believe me. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure not ready for him. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You don't want me 16 over there. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That's just the point; we may 18 want you over there. Okay. Is that the extent of your 19 pleasure, gentlemen? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm cool. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move approval as the -- 24 the Commissioners Court committee assignments as modified 25 today. 1-26-04 201 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 3 approve the Commissioners Court committee-slash-liaison 4 assignments as previously designated under Order 27937, 5 except change Dave Nicholson to Jonathan Letz on Airport 6 Board, Buster Baldwin to County Judge on Law 7 Enforcement-slash-Jail liaison, and add Dave Nicholson as 8 O.S.S.F./Environmental Health. Any further question or 9 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 10 your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Okay. At 15 this point -- 16 MS. SOVIL: Why don't you pay the bills right 17 quick so Tommy can get those downstairs, since it's already 18 3:00? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy who? That was a 20 joke. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why don't we pay the 22 bills? 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move we pay the 24 bills. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 1-26-04 202 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 2 pay the bills. Any question or discussion? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Questions. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Page 4, Kerr County 6 Collections, under County Attorney, 475. Reimbursement for 7 computer software. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Wait a minute, slow 9 down just a little bit and take me there. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Page 4, County 11 Attorney. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: County Attorney, the 13 top one? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Uh-huh, last line. 15 15 -- 158525. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: I'd have to look at the bill. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bet you Motley will 18 know about it if we just ask him. We had something similar 19 to that last month. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did we? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess, really, I'm 23 wondering, who are we reimbursing? 24 MR. MOTLEY: It's the Insufficient Funds -- 25 Insufficient Check Fund. 1-26-04 203 1 MR. TOMLINSON: It's the software support 2 for -- there's some audio tapes that they purchased; it's 3 $23.46 and it's -- 4 (Discussion off the record.) 5 MR. TOMLINSON: It's for the support on 6 the -- annual software support for 1/5/04 through 1/5 -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's okay. 8 MR. MOTLEY: It's the Pabcon software system 9 written for our office. He writes the proprietary software. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Reimbursing the Hot 11 Check Fund? Is that -- 12 MR. MOTLEY: That's -- the Hot Check Fund 13 paid it. We have funds available, so we reimburse it so we 14 can get it paid in a timely fashion. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Page 8, Hill Country 16 Youth Exhibit Center, 666. There are two items, 17 reimbursement for fuel used -- reimbursing the County 18 Treasurer for fuel used at the Hill Country Youth Exhibit 19 Center? 20 MS. SOVIL: Maybe that was somebody else that 21 reimbursed our Treasurer. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll bet she paid somebody, 23 and then she's being reimbursed out of the budget, probably. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: She probably paid an invoice 25 that someone had -- that had a fuel bill that was for -- 1-26-04 204 1 for -- maybe for -- you know, for another agency or -- I 2 just have to look to see what the bill was. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, fine. That's 4 it. I have no other questions. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Look at Page 16. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, I think I had 7 that one, too. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Speakers, podium 9 mic, powered mixer, hand-held mic. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That comes out of the 11 Historical Commission budget. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For Union Church? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure could have used 15 that last Thursday and Friday. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We sure could have 17 used it. That's Union Church? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Friends expenditure. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, yeah, but there's -- 20 they put their money in here. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: They've already spent their 23 budget. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We had that last 25 time. That's all I have. 1-26-04 205 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Did you find out what that 2 was, Tommy, on that fuel? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: It's -- it's for equipment -- 4 piece of equipment, for -- it's KCM Number 9, and it's a 5 piece of equipment we use out at the Ag Barn. Probably what 6 happened, this is a journal entry, whereas it got paid out 7 of one account, and this entry is to take it out of Road and 8 Bridge's -- I mean, out of the -- out of -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: -- the Ag Barn's department. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Motion made and 12 seconded to pay the bills. Any further questions or 13 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 14 your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Now go to 19 Budget Amendment Request Number 1. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 1 is for the County 21 Clerk and Nondepartmental, and requesting transfer of 22 $1,048.17 from Liability Insurance in Nondepartmental to 23 Bonds and Insurance in the County Clerk's department, and 24 it's for the renewal of professional liability and for her 25 office. 1-26-04 206 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 4 approval of Budget Amendment Request Number 1. Any question 5 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 6 raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 11 Amendment Request Number 2. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: That's for the Auditor's 13 office. My request is to transfer $25 from Miscellaneous to 14 Books, Publications, and Dues to pay my association dues for 15 the Texas Association of County Auditors. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So moved. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 19 approve Budget Amendment Request Number 2. Any further 20 questions or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 21 signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Do we have 1-26-04 207 1 any late bills? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: I have another amendment. 3 The -- Road and Bridge called me this morning, and about six 4 or eight months ago, they -- the tower that their radio 5 equipment is on was struck by lightning, and at that time, 6 we replaced part of their system. Well, apparently, 7 yesterday our -- or over the weekend, the base station went 8 out, and they have -- they have in excess of three -- 9 slightly in excess of $3,000 in their Capital Outlay budget 10 that they have not spent that's -- that was saved when we 11 purchased some equipment, and their request is to add $2,068 12 to the Capital Outlay expenditures budget for -- for the 13 purchase of a base station, a Motorola base station for 14 their radio equipment. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where do you suggest 16 the $2,068 comes from? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: It's already there. It's -- 18 there's an addendum to the budget that lists the capital 19 expenditures for each department. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: They want to place the 22 purchase of that on that list. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: They've already got this money 24 in their Capital Outlay budget? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, they do. 1-26-04 208 1 JUDGE TINLEY: They just want to designate it 2 for the purchase of the base station? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 8 allocate $2,068 of the Road and Bridge Capital Outlay budget 9 line item for the purchase of their radio base station. Any 10 question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 11 by raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: That's it. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that it? 18 MR. TOMLINSON: That's it. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: No late bills? Okay. Why 20 don't we get the reports out of the way? I have monthly 21 reports submitted by Justice of the Peace, Precinct 3; 22 Justice of the Peace, Precinct 1; Constable, Precinct 3. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Do I hear a motion that these 25 reports be approved as submitted? 1-26-04 209 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded that 4 the reports as submitted by Justice of the Peace, Precinct 5 3; Justice of the Peace, Precinct 1; and Constable, Precinct 6 3 be approved. Any further question or discussion? All in 7 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He gave us this this 13 morning. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are we done with all 15 that? 16 MS. SOVIL: Except for executive session. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm, that and the 18 information items. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can do information 20 while we're here, 'cause I don't have any. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have any. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't have any. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll go ahead and take up the 24 information item at the very end of the agenda. Do we have 25 any reports in connection with the committee or liaison 1-26-04 210 1 assignments? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have any. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Other than what is going to be 4 submitted in connection with matters to be heard? Any 5 elected officials or department heads' reports, except as 6 submitted? Court reports and boards, commissions, and 7 committees? I'm sure most of you have received minutes from 8 the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint Airport Advisory Board dated 9 Wednesday, January 14th, and minutes from that same 10 organization dated Wednesday, December 10th. Those were 11 provided to me. I assume that they were provided to others. 12 Those are for your information, and -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I'll -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm sorry? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was going to pass it on 16 to the liaison to the airport, but I guess that's me, so I 17 don't need to pass something on. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. I also have the Road 19 and Bridge monthly report for December that all 20 Commissioners also get a copy of. That's also for 21 information purposes. Is there anything else in the way of 22 monthly reports that we need to submit under information 23 items? That being the case, why don't we stand in recess 24 until 3:15, give the reporter a little break, and we'll come 25 back, and then we'll open up and then we'll go into 1-26-04 211 1 executive. We'll stand in recess. 2 (Recess taken from 3:04 p.m. to 3:15 p.m.) 3 - - - - - - - - - - 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, it's 3:15. We'll come 5 back to order to the special Commissioners Court meeting 6 posted for this date. Next item on the agenda is executive 7 session, as indicated, closed meeting. That being the case, 8 I will recess the regular Commissioners -- or the special 9 Commissioners Court meeting, and I will now open us in 10 executive or closed session. 11 (The open session was closed at 3:15 p.m., and an Executive Session was held, the 12 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 13 - - - - - - - - - - 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. It's 4:30, and we're 15 now back in open session. Does -- does anyone have any -- 16 any motion to offer in connection with the matter just 17 discussed in executive session? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I make a motion that we 19 authorize -- Dave? -- Ron, you or David Pearce? Who's doing 20 the negotiations? You? 21 MR. PATTERSON: It's named as me on what 22 we're doing. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Authorize the City 24 Manager to negotiate a lease pursuant to the terms discussed 25 in executive session with Mooney, and that Commissioner 1-26-04 212 1 Williams serve as liaison on this point, and review the 2 lease prior to approval. Yeah, leave it at that. Does that 3 cover it? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not sure. Does your 5 motion include Commissioner Williams having the 6 authorization to act on behalf of the Court, and in the 7 event the lease is in substantially the same form as 8 presented to the Court earlier today, to okay the approval 9 and -- and present the same to the County Judge for 10 execution? If not, if he does not deem it to be 11 substantially as presented today, to bring it back to the 12 Court for court approval? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I heard him say that. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- except the 15 point, I think it needs to come back to the court for 16 approval before it goes to you for signature in either 17 event, probably. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Other than that, I agree 20 with it, that outline. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That will work. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 1-26-04 213 1 discussion concerning the motion? All in favor of the 2 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does pass. Thank you, 7 gentlemen, for being here. We apologize for -- 8 MR. PATTERSON: We'll get out of your way 9 quickly here. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the delay. Let you get 11 your traveling road show gathered up. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. It is now 4:34, and at 14 this time, we will go back into executive or closed session. 15 Mr. Motley, do you want to change that back? 16 MR. MOTLEY: Yes, sir, I'll be happy to. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll need to get Commissioner 18 Baldwin back in here. 19 (The open session was closed at 4:34 p.m., and an Executive Session was held, the 20 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, it is now 5:44, and we 23 will reconvene in open session. Is there anything to be 24 offered? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I want to make a 1-26-04 214 1 comment, and -- for the County Attorney, before anything 2 else is said. Everything said in executive session has been 3 said publicly, and, to me, it can be spoken again in open 4 session. I don't think there was anything there related to 5 anything that hasn't been talked about in open court before. 6 And when I started -- when we went into executive session, I 7 made the comment that I would prefer that the entire 8 discussion be made in open court, but because of potential 9 litigation, the County Attorney said we can do it in closed 10 session. But this is the exact same conversation we had in 11 court on two occasions, so anything said has already been 12 said in public. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Does any member of the Court 14 have anything to offer in connection with what was discussed 15 in closed session? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I do. I 17 personally do not think that the County Attorney needs any 18 kind of order from the Commissioners Court, or request. I 19 think that -- that he has all authority to seek the remedies 20 to the question on his own. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Without any further 22 authorization from this Court? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir, I do. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do you agree with 25 that, Mr. Attorney? 1-26-04 215 1 MR. MOTLEY: I don't know that I could bind 2 the County by contract; I don't have the authority to bind 3 the County in a contract that would be the type of contract 4 we discussed. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you think there's a 6 case, bring a contract back. 7 MR. MOTLEY: I don't think they're going to 8 do a lot of work without the -- without some kind of 9 agreement, some kind of a contingency agreement, I don't 10 expect we'll get much work out of anybody. They -- they 11 don't do this work for free. And I'm not trying to, you 12 know, aid the ambulance chasers society or anything like 13 that. These are people that are skilled in what they do. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, from your comments 15 we've had for the last several times in court now, it's 16 pretty simple to hand them a transcript. 17 MR. MOTLEY: There will be more to look at 18 than that. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all -- well, 20 anyway -- 21 MR. MOTLEY: There should be more to look at 22 than that. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're basing your 24 decision on that contract -- I mean on those minutes. Not 25 the contract, on the minutes. 1-26-04 216 1 MR. MOTLEY: I'm looking at the very basic, 2 number-one issue of whether Option 3 was presented. I say 3 it wasn't. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you're basing -- and 5 you've said that the only thing that's relevant is the 6 minutes. The Judge has said the same thing. 7 MR. MOTLEY: Those minutes are the meeting at 8 which the options were presented. That's where it was. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Show it to an attorney, 10 and if they want to take the case, bring us a contract. 11 MR. MOTLEY: That's not going to work, I'm 12 afraid. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Time to go home. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: It's your belief, Commissioner 15 Baldwin, that the County Attorney has the authority to bind 16 the County in legal matters? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, not in a 18 contract matter, but to pursue this thing to see what the 19 interest is out there. It -- we don't even know if there is 20 such a lawyer. 21 MR. MOTLEY: That's for me to find. That's 22 why I'm the County's legal adviser. That's my job to find 23 somebody to take care of that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's exactly right. 25 MR. MOTLEY: And we need to be able to bind 1-26-04 217 1 the County in order to get this thing underway, and I can't 2 just go over there and just walk around, say, "Hey, what do 3 you think about this and what do you think about that?" 4 They need to get into it, sink their teeth in, look at the 5 records, make a substantial investigation before they know 6 what's going on. They're not going to do that for free, 7 without -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We can sit here and 9 say this all night long. We're not going anywhere. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. I'll have my 11 final say. I'm -- I continue to believe that there's a 12 strong possibility that the County made a bad decision based 13 on bad advice from the benefits administrator. I would 14 encourage the County Attorney to pursue it to the extent he 15 can. I'll be prepared to make a motion to get a court order 16 to do that, but I'm not in the mood to make another motion 17 that goes unseconded, so I'm not going to do that. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I agree. I encourage 19 the County Attorney to look into it, find somebody. If they 20 think there's interest, bring it back. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Come back. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further in connection 23 with this matter? Anything further to come before the 24 meeting? We will stand adjourned. 25 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 5:46 p.m.) - - - - - - - - - - 1-26-04 218 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 2nd day of February, 8 2004. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1-26-04