1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, September 13, 2004 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X September 13, 2004 2 PAGE --- Commissioners' Comments ............................. 5 3 1.1 Resignation of Justice of the Peace #3 ............. 13 4 1.2 Advertising for Proposal for Electrical, plumbing, HVAC and pest control .............................. 16 5 1.3 Consider advertising for sealed bid proposals for improvements at the HCYEC, set dates for opening ... 17 6 1.4 Approve road names for privately-maintained roads .. 21 1.5 Revision of Tract 118, Kerrville South No. II, 7 with variances ..................................... 22 1.17 Investment options for County employees ............ 52 8 1.18 Consider permitting Shannon Air 1 Subscription Program available for purchase in Kerr County, 9 authorize County Judge to sign authorization letter ............................................. 70 10 1.19 Agreement for Kimble County/Junction EMS provider to assume responsibility as primary responder for 11 911 emergency calls made from Y.O. Ranchlands ...... 91 1.23 Consider BB Air Rifle Target Range on HCYEC 12 property .......................................... 103 1.6 Revision of Plat for Lots 6, 7E & 7W into 6R of 13 Falling Water ..................................... --- 1.7 Revision of Plat for Lots 21 & 22 into 21A of 14 Falling Water ..................................... --- 1.8 Revision of Plat for Lots 41A & 43B into 43R of 15 Falling Water ..................................... 116 1.9 Revision of Plat for Lots 46A, 46B & 47A into 46R 16 of Falling Water .................................. 117 1.10 Revision of Plat for Lots 121A & 121B into 121R of 17 Falling Water ..................................... 117 1.11 Revision of Plat for Lots 122D & 123D into 122R of 18 Falling Water ..................................... 117 1.12 Revision of Plat for Lots 123B & 123C into 123R of 19 Falling Water ..................................... 117 1.13 Revision of Plat for Lots 127A & 127B into 127R of 20 Falling Water ..................................... 117 1.14 Revision of Plat for Lots 141A & 141B into 141R of 21 Falling Water ..................................... 117 1.15 Resolution thanking members of Airport Advisory 22 Board for their service ........................... 120 1.16 Declare trees in right-of-way of Hermann Sons new 23 bridge as surplus ................................. 122 1.20 Renewal of Interlocal Cooperation Contract between 24 Kerr County Sheriff's Office and Texas Department of Public Safety for administering the Fugitive 25 Apprehension Program .............................. 126 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) September 13, 2004 2 PAGE 1.22 Consider easements acquisition for Kerrville 3 South Wastewater Project, Phases II and III, approve compensation, authorize County Judge 4 to execute appropriate documents and correspondence .................................... 127 5 1.28 Approval of proposed FY 2004-2005 tax rate, set public hearing on same ............................ 133 6 1.29 Discussion and adoption of Tax Rate for Lake Ingram Road District .............................. 138 7 1.26 Approval of proposed FY 2004-2005 public officials salary, set public hearing on same ...... 139 8 1.21 Approve proposed agreement with Kerrville Christmas Lighting Corporation regarding 9 installation, storage and take-down of Christmas lights on the courthouse during holiday season .... 147 10 1.24 Consider hiring Employee Health Benefit Consultant ........................................ 152 11 1.25 Discuss transfer of funds to Juvenile Detention Facility Fund from General Fund in exchange for 12 accounts receivable from contracting counties ..... 160 13 4.1 Pay Bills ......................................... 174 4.2 Budget Amendments ................................. 175 14 4.3 Late Bills ........................................ --- 4.4 Read and Approve Minutes .......................... 187 15 4.5 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports ................ 187 16 1.27 Approval of proposed 2004-2005 budget, set public hearing on same ............................ 189 17 --- Adjourned ......................................... 195 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 On Monday, September 13, 2004, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and 7 gentlemen. Let me call to order the meeting of the Kerr 8 County Commissioners Court scheduled for this date and time, 9 Monday, September the 13th of 2004, at 9 a.m. Commissioner 10 Letz, would you do the honors this morning? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Would everyone please 12 stand and join me in a moment of prayer. 13 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. At this point in 15 the meeting, if there is a member of the public that wishes 16 to come forward and address the Court on any matter which is 17 not listed on the agenda, they're free to do so at this 18 time. If -- if it is your desire to speak concerning a 19 matter that is listed on the agenda, we'd ask that you wait 20 until that agenda item is called. We'd also ask that you 21 fill out what we call a participation form. They're at the 22 back of the room. Some have already done so this morning; 23 we appreciate that. It's not absolutely required that you 24 do that, but it helps me so that -- that I don't pass you 25 over when we come to that particular item. But if there's 9-13-04 5 1 any member of the public that wishes to come forward and be 2 heard on any matter that's not listed on the agenda, feel 3 free to come forward at this time; we'd be happy to listen 4 to you. Seeing no one to come forward, we'll move on to the 5 next portion of the agenda. Commissioner Letz, do you have 6 anything for us this morning? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, I do. Over the 8 weekend, Comfort celebrated its 150th birthday. And I don't 9 know -- I know some people out in the crowd I saw in 10 attendance. I'm not sure if anyone -- other people from the 11 Court were there, but it was a really nice event. They had 12 a parade with a hundred and -- 130 or 160 entries and the 13 Lackland Band there marching. They had -- if you were an 14 old tractor buff, it was quite a sight to see the old 15 thrashers and tractors and other farm implements that were 16 turn-of-the-century vintage. Pretty interesting. Then it 17 was an all-day event at the park. A lot of class reunions 18 were held, which was a lot of fun. And then there's a -- 19 kind of an unusual thing called the Comfort Pageant, which 20 started 50 years ago at the centennial, and Vera Flach, 21 who's a distant relative of mine, wrote the pageant. It's 22 recreated on the banks of Cypress Creek under the tree -- 23 same cypress tree the first settlers lived under -- camped 24 under. Really, it's a neat thing. It's narrated, so -- but 25 about 200 people from the community dress up in vintage 9-13-04 6 1 costumes, and it's everything from the Indian raids to the 2 cheerleading and the current fire trucks they have in 3 Comfort all takes place, so it's quite an event. That's one 4 of the great things about living in a small community. 5 That's all I have. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I pass. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I do have one 9 item. I think it's probably unpleasant, but Saturday was 10 9/11, time for reflection on one of the turning points in 11 the history of our nation. And before that, last week, I 12 got a phone call from the San Antonio Express News wanting 13 to know if there were any 9/11 functions in Kerrville for 14 the weekend, and I wasn't sure, so I called the Chamber of 15 Commerce. They did not have anything, so I called the 16 Visitor's Bureau, and they said yes, there is one function 17 in Kerrville, and that's at the Kerr County Courthouse, 18 where the Tivy Band will be, Color Guard, and the County 19 Judge will be there speaking. And so, okay. So I come down 20 here, and I'm a little bit late for the -- for that 21 function; I caught the tail end of the Tivy Band. But I 22 went around the courthouse square just to see what was going 23 on, and there was a motor home parked right out here in 24 front of our courthouse with huge signs representing a 25 political party. And I can't tell you how that angered me, 9-13-04 7 1 particularly on the day of 9/11. We have a lot of veterans 2 walking around here, and it was very offensive to our 3 citizens, and very offensive to me as well. 4 Even -- it doesn't matter what party; that's 5 not -- that's not my point at all here. Even if they had 6 both parties -- political parties here on the courthouse 7 square Saturday, it still would not have been right, in my 8 opinion. It was extremely offensive to me and a lot of 9 other people. They even -- they even had a little poodle 10 with a bumper sticker stuck to its hair on the side of it 11 walking around, these brilliant people, and that's offensive 12 as well. So, I'm really upset about it. The contract we 13 have with the Kerr County Market Days says that they will 14 promote fresh produce, plants, homemade food stuff, art 15 works, and crafts. It doesn't say anything about we're 16 going to get involved in the political arena and push our 17 agenda, make a statement and that kind of thing. That's 18 just not going to happen as long as I'm here; I'm going to 19 tell you that. It really ticks me off. 20 The way to terminate this agreement, you have 21 to give the party 30 days notice, and it's due -- it comes 22 up December the 18th anyway. If it were up to me -- you 23 know, I'm going to find some opposition here at the table, 24 and that's fine, but if it were up to me, this thing would 25 be terminated today. It would be -- our relationship with 9-13-04 8 1 the Market Days people would be over this moment. But the 2 contract says -- the agreement says that we will have to 3 give the party 30 days written notice. I don't know where 4 that puts us, then -- mid-October, so the thing is due in 5 December anyway. I'd like to see us give a written 6 notice -- 30-day notice that it's over. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- question. I was 8 not here. The -- it was inside the -- parked here inside 9 the parking lot? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. It was a 11 booth. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was a booth? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: A motor home booth. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Did it belong to an 15 exhibitor? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have any idea; 17 I didn't get anywhere near it. But it had huge signs, 18 everybody running around with their T-shirts, you know. And 19 I understand the political arena; that's what I do, but 20 not -- not on 9/11, and not on our courthouse square. Very 21 offensive. Very offensive. And you guys need to appreciate 22 me by not -- by talking to the crowd that approached me with 23 it, not letting them come in here. I'm telling you, you 24 don't want that band of brothers in this room. That's all. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 9-13-04 9 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, if your 2 comments had been a motion, I would have -- I would have 3 seconded it, because I too had a lot of phone calls about 4 that particular incident. And, while I didn't know for 5 certain, I suspected that a space had been leased or been 6 given, one or the other, by the organization that's in 7 charge. I've always taken great pride in the fact that our 8 courthouse square remains free of political activity. If 9 you want to see the alternate side of the issue, go to 10 Bandera County and take a look at that courthouse square 11 during election season, and you'll find the absolute 12 opposite of what this courthouse square is all about. And I 13 like it the way it is here; I don't like it the way it is 14 there. So that says, Commissioner, had it been a motion, 15 you'd have had a second on this, 'cause I had a bunch of 16 phone calls about it as well. My other comment has to do -- 17 kind of a follow-up to Commissioner Letz about Comfort and 18 the 150th, is only to remind everybody that Kerr County will 19 be celebrating its 150th, I believe, in '06. Which tells 20 me, since sesquicentennials or centennials, bicentennials or 21 whatever, take a lot of work, we'd better get cracking. 22 That's all I got. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Like you, 24 Commissioner Baldwin, I had -- I had a call. I was out of 25 town over the weekend, so I was unable to be at the -- at 9-13-04 10 1 the 9/11 service that -- program that was here at the 2 courthouse. I had originally committed several months ago, 3 and it was necessary for me to be out of town. My good 4 friend Joe Benham was kind enough to fill in for me. I also 5 got calls; apparently not as many calls as you gentlemen 6 got, but I got some, and that was my first knowledge of it, 7 getting these phone calls. And I've not had an opportunity 8 to talk with the -- the leadership at Market Days, so I -- I 9 don't know what the story is from that end, but I'm 10 committed to making the activities in this courthouse 11 nonpolitical, and in fact have -- have declined to allow use 12 of the facilities here for political groups wanting to meet. 13 We do have a vehicle in place for the conventions and things 14 of that nature that are required under the election laws, 15 but other than that, I don't think it's appropriate that we 16 have any political activity here on the grounds. 17 We -- we had someone that made an effort to 18 post some signs here on the courthouse grounds during the 19 last campaign, and we, with the assistance of the 20 Maintenance people, promptly got that issue resolved so that 21 we wouldn't end up looking like Bandera, as Commissioner 22 Williams has said. I didn't personally see it, but I 23 understand it was an absolute nightmare over there. But 24 I -- I intend to inquire into it, and hopefully it'll be an 25 explanation which can be presented to this Court that has 9-13-04 11 1 some -- some ability for us to understand why this occurred. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, question on that 3 point, 'cause I have not looked at the contract. Does it 4 take a -- I mean, a breach of the contract, which is -- to 5 me, this clearly is, doesn't require -- would not require a 6 motion or anything for that letter to go. I don't know why 7 we can't send a letter. It doesn't mean that -- I mean, and 8 a vote would come when the 30-day notice letter would be 9 out, a notice of breach, and let them -- put them on notice 10 that we're considering that. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I've not reviewed the 12 contract recently. I'd be happy to, but I suspect the -- 13 the 30-day notice provision is very much like some of the 14 other agreements we have in place, where we have the right 15 to terminate agreements just by giving 30 days notice, as 16 does the other party to the agreement, without any basis or 17 justification or cause whatsoever. But I -- I don't know 18 what the language of the agreement reads with respect to 19 breach or cause or anything of that nature, but I would 20 suspect that it's something that we have to put into an 21 agenda item if we're going to take formal action on a 22 contract which the Court was a part of. I really do. 23 MS. GRAHAM: Just a question. I -- I'm 24 totally in favor of what you're saying. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Please give your name -- 9-13-04 12 1 MS. GRAHAM: I'm sorry? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: So the court reporter can get 3 your name, please, ma'am. 4 MS. GRAHAM: I'm Lori Graham. The people 5 that put on this fair, were they aware at the time that this 6 political convoy was going to be put there? I mean, was it 7 there earlier? I'm sure they were -- it was there when they 8 showed up, and what can do you? You lease the place over 9 the phone. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I imagine they were 11 aware, because they lease spaces and they mark them off in 12 advance. 13 MS. GRAHAM: Okay. So they knew that R.V. 14 was going to be there? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The plain answer is, we don't 16 know. 17 MS. GRAHAM: Okay. Well, it just seems like 18 you're condemning them before you know. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, as I indicated, I intend 20 to talk to the leadership of that organization, find out 21 what the story is from their side of it. And, as I 22 indicated, hopefully there's some explanation that can be 23 brought to the Court that -- that will allow us to make the 24 appropriate decision. I -- I'm not making any prejudgment. 25 It is disappointing that we had this kind of activity, 9-13-04 13 1 because I've taken considerable pains, and -- and maybe a 2 hit or two, by saying no, I'm sorry, you cannot use -- 3 MS. GRAHAM: Well, I agree, it's a shame that 4 it happened. But I just -- it's condemning them before they 5 can speak for themselves. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I appreciate your 7 comment, and it's well-taken. 8 MS. GRAHAM: Thank you. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Graham. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I would -- you 11 know, you don't have to do it, 'cause any of us could do it. 12 I think it should be on our next agenda to hear from them, 13 and at the same time, we could consider if we want to take 14 any action at that time. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I suspect Commissioner 16 Baldwin's already got that in mind. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else? Let's move on 19 to the business at hand. First agenda on the item, 20 Ms. O'Dell. The agenda item is -- is listed as resignation 21 as Justice of the Peace, Precinct Number 3. 22 JUDGE O'DELL: Effective today, I am 23 resigning my position as Justice of the Peace, Precinct 3. 24 My last day will be September 30th. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: You will be performing the 9-13-04 14 1 duties of your office till the 30th day of September? 2 JUDGE O'DELL: Uh-huh. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any member of the Court 4 have any -- any questions of Ms. O'Dell? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Do you think 6 you'll get a second on that motion? You won't. So it's -- 7 get on back down; get back to work. 8 JUDGE O'DELL: It's been hard. So -- anyhow. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know it's been a 10 difficult -- I've talked with Judge O'Dell about this. I 11 think maybe other members of the Court probably have too, 12 and I reluctantly make a motion to accept her resignation. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 15 the acceptance of Judge O'Dell's resignation as Justice of 16 the Peace in Precinct Number 3 of Kerr County. Any further 17 questions or discussion? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Want to put in the 19 effective date in that motion? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Effective -- well, 21 effective September 30th. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can we add a caveat 23 to that motion, that motion of acceptance, to thank Judge 24 O'Dell for her diligent service and professionalism in 25 office? 9-13-04 15 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Certainly. Certainly. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I think it's so added. Any 3 further question or discussion? Thank you for your 4 assistance and help. 5 JUDGE O'DELL: Thank you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion, 7 signify by raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We 12 wish you well. 13 JUDGE O'DELL: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Kari. 15 JUDGE O'DELL: Thanks. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Next item on the agenda is -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, before you move 18 on, if I could just make a comment related to this, 'cause I 19 have received -- and I'm sure many of y'all have, just how 20 we're going to proceed with this. And my intent is, this 21 will be an agenda item to discuss what we're going to do 22 with the vacancy at our next meeting. So there's no point 23 in really scheduling a whole lot of meetings and doing a 24 whole lot of stuff until the Court has time to discuss this 25 at our next meeting, which is more of a public comment, 9-13-04 16 1 'cause I know I've been getting calls on this; I'm sure the 2 Judge has as well. But we just need to put it on the 3 agenda. Thank you. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you indicating that 5 persons who have an interest should be working up their 6 communications? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm just saying that I 8 think the Court needs to decide the process we're going to 9 use, and I think it needs to be at our next meeting. And I 10 have an idea as to how I feel the process should go, but I 11 haven't discussed it, obviously, with the rest of the Court. 12 So I think at that meeting, then the public will know what 13 the Court's intent is. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's move on to the 15 next item, advertising for proposal for electrical, 16 plumbing, HVAC, and pest control. This is something that is 17 an annual occurrence, is it not, -- 18 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Mr. Holekamp? 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move to authorize 23 the advertising proposal for electrical, plumbing, HVAC, and 24 pest control. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made for approval of 9-13-04 17 1 the agenda item. Do I hear a second? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second, with a question. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion's been made and 4 seconded. Any questions or comments? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glenn, is there 6 additional information as to exactly what they're bidding 7 on? 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir, there's a packet 9 that they receive. But it's all detailed, and I didn't know 10 if y'all would need that in there. And it gives you the 11 schedule of the hourly rate and that sort of thing. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Same type as we had last 13 year? 14 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir, exactly the same. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, thank you. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 17 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 18 your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Next 23 item on the agenda is consideration and discussion of 24 advertising for sealed bid proposals for improvements at the 25 Hill Country Youth Exhibit Center, and set dates for opening 9-13-04 18 1 same. Mr. Holekamp? 2 MR. HOLEKAMP: This is based on the fact -- 3 on the premise that we are going to do some work out there 4 at the barn. I know the budget has not been approved -- the 5 money has not been approved, but due to time frames that I 6 will have to deal with on advertising, the length for 7 advertising, and allow time to get those bids in and start a 8 project, if -- if we plan to have it done by mid-January, it 9 would really have to get started very, very soon. And, with 10 the time frame here, this is a minimum amount of time to -- 11 to advertise and accept and then approve. But, again, we 12 can always reject -- if the money is not, you know, 13 budgeted, we can reject it. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I, for one, 15 think it's premature. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- I don't -- 17 personally, I don't think it's premature, but I think 18 there's not enough information. I think -- I mean, when 19 we're going to -- you have to -- we have to be, in my 20 opinion, specific as to exactly what we want them to do, and 21 which is going to be difficult, I understand. But at least 22 from the standpoint of the -- the ratings and type of -- of 23 units, the type of roof we're talking about. I mean, you 24 know -- I mean, I've -- I just don't see how we can -- you 25 can go out for a bid on something like this without pretty 9-13-04 19 1 detailed specifications, because we don't know what we're 2 going to get. And if you don't -- we don't have detailed 3 specifications for this, you're asking for a mountain of 4 change orders. And how do you compare them? How do you 5 compare insulation that's included or not included? If this 6 has a C rating of X, and theirs is Y? This is one type of 7 roof; this is another. I don't see how we can make an 8 intelligent decision. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All of that, plus the 10 fact that I believe the Court said that we would -- we 11 would -- at this point, having not yet approved the budget, 12 we would place those moneys in Contingency, and we haven't 13 made the final decision as to whether or not they're going 14 to be spent. So, I think it's premature. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I do think we need to get 16 online on specifications. And I don't know -- I don't think 17 we can expect someone to do that free, but we need to know 18 exactly what we're talking about. 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: That would be my next 20 question, is do you want engineering done on it? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think it's going 22 to have to be engineered. I don't think we can spend those 23 funds without engineering being done, so yes, we have to 24 hire an engineer. I mean, I -- not that I want to, but I 25 don't -- I think we're obligated by law to. 9-13-04 20 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With that kind of 2 expenditure, we'd better. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: I have no problem. I was -- 5 I'm just trying to relay to you the amount -- the time frame 6 situation -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 8 MR. HOLEKAMP: -- that we're going to be 9 dealing with if we delay this much. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: It won't be done by January 12 the 15th if we don't start fairly soon. That was my only 13 point. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- and I 15 don't know. In the, I guess, thought of time, maybe at our 16 next meeting we could pick an engineer. I don't think this 17 is something we can just pick someone. I think we'll get -- 18 there are plenty of local engineers that can do this type of 19 work. It's not a major project. Maybe you can kind of put 20 the word out a little bit -- 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- through your 23 connections, that there -- maybe the next -- I'd put on it 24 the agenda for our next meeting to discuss, you know, with 25 several, I guess, applicants and proceed. 9-13-04 21 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: I have no problem with that 2 concept at all. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else to be offered on 4 that subject? If not, we'll move forward. Next item on the 5 agenda, consider approving road names for privately 6 maintained roads in accordance with 9-1-1 guidelines. 7 MS. HARDIN: Good morning, gentlemen. Our 8 list gets shorter and shorter. Today we only have three. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I have one on 10 there, and I'm certainly in agreement with it. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm also in 12 agreement. One question is, the road that's currently named 13 Pigeon Roost, is that one that the County abandoned 14 maintenance of? 15 MS. HARDIN: Yes. It was Joelle Ranch Road, 16 then Pigeon Roost, and now they would like it to be Herons 17 Crossing. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Move for approval. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 21 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 22 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 23 your right hand. 24 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9-13-04 22 1 (No response.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Next 3 item on the agenda is consider revision of Tract 118, 4 Kerrville South Number II, with variances. I would note 5 that some participation forms have been filed in connection 6 with that item, and we'll get to you at the appropriate 7 time. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'd like to 9 start this off asking the County Engineer -- Franklin, what 10 was it dealing with these four -- three -- probably two 11 issues on the list here, that we agreed to in our last 12 meeting? 13 MR. JOHNSTON: We had -- we had a concept 14 plan, and I think the -- I think you were nodding your head 15 in agreement on those first two items. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To the variance of -- 17 MR. JOHNSTON: On the lot -- size of lot one. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Because? 19 MR. JOHNSTON: The background on that, the -- 20 currently, the property goes to the center of Madrona Drive. 21 It is an acre-plus. Our rules make them dedicate 60 feet -- 22 60-foot right-of-way. By taking that 30 foot off of his 23 property, it goes slightly under an acre, and there's no way 24 to improve it -- increase that size. The road already 25 bisects that lot -- two lots. And the other variance is the 9-13-04 23 1 lot frontages of less than 200 feet. I think the lots may 2 have been reconfigured a little bit since the last one. 3 MR. TUCK: Not much. 4 MR. JOHNSTON: So I think last time there was 5 only one lot that was under 200. Now I think there are 6 three, but they can go into that. The plat's submitted. 7 There's some minor corrections that need -- surveyor's 8 already been notified of those, and it will require a public 9 hearing. And I think, to get 30 days, we'll have to extend 10 it to October 25th, which is a plat revision. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And it's on a water 12 system? 13 MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, it is. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: If I'm reading it correctly, 15 you've got a total of five lots. Lots 1 and 2 have the 16 requisite 200 feet frontage; 3, 4, and 5 do not. Is that 17 correct? 18 MR. JOHNSTON: That's correct. Three would 19 be just slightly under. Four would be 76 and a half foot, 20 and Lot 5, 141. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Franklin, again, back 22 to our other meeting and the conversation that we had, one 23 of the reasons that we have frontage -- specific frontage 24 distance is for -- for sight, putting in a driveway and 25 being able to see? 9-13-04 24 1 MR. JOHNSTON: Sight and separating 2 driveways. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: For safety purposes. 4 MR. JOHNSTON: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In your opinion, is 6 there sight distance there? 7 MR. JOHNSTON: Actually, I think there is. 8 And these lots don't all -- don't all access the same road. 9 Actually, three of them are on Madrona. One of them's on 10 Kerrville South, and one of them's either Madrona or 11 Codrington, so they have multiple streets for access. That 12 would separate the driveways. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I mean, 15 the -- our Subdivision Rules don't allow -- we can't allow 16 for all situations, but when you get into 1-acre tracts, 17 that 200-foot rule is virtually impossible to follow, 18 because a 200 -- I mean, you almost have to have a square, 19 'cause an acre is 208 feet by 208 feet, and, you know, the 20 odds of getting that with our terrain are virtually 21 impossible. So, a variance for this type of situation is 22 certainly called for. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what a variance 24 is for. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I mean, it's -- 9-13-04 25 1 it's more the exception under these real small 1-acre lots 2 to make -- to make that 200 foot. And those are really 3 more -- really tried in areas with larger tracts and where 4 you have -- you know, the driveway issue becomes a little 5 bit more important because the speed's a little bit higher 6 usually on roads, I guess. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Franklin, point 8 number 3, what is the minor correction on the plat that is 9 supposed to be completed for -- for consideration on final? 10 MR. JOHNSTON: Streets don't contain the 11 geo-region letter. The site plan needs some more detail. 12 It's hard to tell on there actually where it's located. 13 The -- under the engineer's signature block, it should say, 14 "Meets the rules and regulations with variances," and give 15 the variance numbers that we'll have today. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge? In the agenda 17 request form, it does not say anything about setting a 18 public hearing. Are you going to be so strict that we can't 19 follow through and do that? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move that we 22 approve -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Just a moment. We've got some 24 participants that want to -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sorry. 9-13-04 26 1 MR. JOHNSTON: I think Mike Tuck has -- 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I mean, you're free to make a 3 motion at this point in time. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'll withdraw that. 5 That's fine; you're absolutely right. I was just trying to 6 get out of here before supper. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Linda Ferris? 8 MS. FERRIS: Yes, sir. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: You had filed a participation 10 form with regard to this particular item. 11 MS. FERRIS: Hello. My name's Linda Ferris, 12 and I don't know if I'm going to be one of the ones that's 13 mostly directed by this addition that's coming into the 14 property. Mr. Tuck has gone to great bounds of being -- 15 he's tried to be very helpful and very -- I would say 16 generous on what he's doing. I'm very concerned, because my 17 water source to my property, into my house and my house 18 we're living in, is a spring. It's been there for, as far 19 as we know, probably 30 years. It's supplied the house 20 that's on the property with water. It's never gone dry, 21 that anybody that I've spoken to, the last three owners 22 prior to myself -- correction; I'm the third owner that I'm 23 aware of. Two owners, it's never gone dry in the last 25 24 years that we're aware of. I am mainly concerned about, for 25 one, the water runoff that is going to be coming down from 9-13-04 27 1 these properties. The reason we brought property out there 2 in the first place is so the fact that we wouldn't have 3 everybody over there, as far as a joint, I guess -- what 4 would you say? -- a subdivision, even though there is one, 5 you know, farther away. Property -- enough property so 6 everybody wouldn't be on top of each other. 7 I do know we have a surveyor here that's come 8 on my property, looked at the spring. He is saying that I 9 probably will not get any contamination from septic tanks, 10 which I am worried that four of them will be on top of me 11 when you approve this, if you approve this. And I 12 understand, geographically, by looking at this map, that 13 everybody says that, you know, the water all runs downhill, 14 and according to these lines, it looks like it will affect 15 my neighbor more than it will affect me. But we're going to 16 go out and take pictures and show you the fact that the -- 17 looking at this map, the -- the way I see -- geometrically, 18 the way the lands falls, it falls right down on my property. 19 There has got to be at least a 40-, 50-foot drop in 20 elevation as it goes down, probably even much farther than 21 that, because I'm not a surveyor. I just know I go out and 22 walk it, and it's uphill and downhill. Whether or not they 23 say by all these -- you know, what electronical means that 24 they give them, is the fact that water runs downhill. And 25 I'm below the man, and I'm considered -- I'm just really 9-13-04 28 1 concerned about the water runoff of putting other properties 2 up there, and the fact that contaminating my water source. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms. Ferris, which 4 tract of land are you? 111? 112? 135? Or -- 5 MS. FERRIS: 117. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon? 7 MS. FERRIS: I believe I'm 117, the 11 point 8 acres. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 10 MS. FERRIS: And I will take pictures as far 11 as the next meeting -- as far as the public meeting, to come 12 out and show you just -- and maybe I can get help from other 13 surveyors, that even though these lands -- it's divided and 14 you have this nice angled slant, the elevation of the land 15 is not like that. It just comes down. And when it rains, 16 I'd be more than happy to have any of y'all walk out there 17 and see my waterfall and see the caves. Also, that's one 18 thing I'm concerned about, 'cause there's no telling where 19 this spring actually comes from. I'm sure underneath there, 20 there are caves beside mine. There's all kinds of open 21 areas in this lime rock -- limestone. When the water 22 filtrates down, there's -- there's no telling where it all 23 comes from. And that's what -- I'm concerned mainly about 24 septic systems. I've learned a lot about septics, just like 25 Mr. Tuck had said. I know an aerobic system will not work, 9-13-04 29 1 because that puts everything above ground, and it's all 2 going to run down. I do know he's gone to great lengths to 3 maybe try to improve the septics that he would put in, but 4 even then, they say 20 percent goes in the ground. And if I 5 have four double-wides above me, that's still 80 percent 6 pollutants into the ground. So, those are things that I'm 7 highly concerned about. I do know the spring is not 8 perfect, 'cause there's Mother Nature out there, but I do 9 know the water tastes very good, and I do get it checked 10 annually. So, those are my main concerns besides the water 11 runoff. I have a lot of it already, much less covering up 12 the land with, you know, other things. So, thank you very 13 much for your time. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. We 15 appreciate your participation. Robert Kass? 16 MR. KASS: Good morning, gentlemen. My name 17 is Robert Kass. I own acre -- Lot 112, which is right below 18 the 118, the one that's going to be divided up. My main 19 concern is, when I bought that property, it was 2 and a half 20 acre subdivided minimum. That's why I purchased the 21 property, wanting to be away from what's happening right 22 now. I know I can't stop that, but that's my opinion. 23 Secondly, I'm really concerned about the water runoff. I 24 am -- according to the Appraisal District, my property is 25 100 feet below the property above. The water runoff now is 9-13-04 30 1 pretty amazing when it rains hard. I'm afraid that when 2 those lots get cleared for four lots instead of the original 3 two, it will have a little less cedar trees and things to 4 divert that water, and become more of a -- be a 5 concrete-type area where the water runs off, and create 6 greater velocity and cause some more damage than we already 7 do get when it does rain hard. We've already had -- the 8 last two heavy rains have cost over $20,000 worth of damage 9 done to our property. I'm really concerned about that. My 10 third one is the variances. I put up a metal building and I 11 came to this Court two years ago and applied for a variance, 12 and I was denied. I had to move my building back 10 feet -- 13 that's all, 10 feet -- at the cost of $22,000 to remove the 14 caliche hillside. So, I was told at that time this Court 15 was not allowing variances. That was their answer. So, 16 that -- so that's my concern; they're getting variances when 17 I couldn't. So, I thank you for your time. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Kass. Lori 19 Graham? 20 MS. GRAHAM: Hello. I own Lot -- my husband 21 and I own Lot 111, which is across the street from the 22 proposed subdivision. And I will not have the environmental 23 impact that Mr. Kass and Ms. Ferris will have from the 24 fertilizers that will run off, but I will have the 25 population impact of all the cars, trucks, extra people, and 9-13-04 31 1 that is my concern. And that is why my husband and I did 2 buy there, is that there was not anything at the time 3 smaller than 2 and a half acres. We do own more than Lot 4 111; we own 8 and 9 -- or 9 and 10; I apologize. I was 5 going to build a house there, and according to my husband, I 6 cannot build my $400,000 house if Mr. Tuck puts in four -- 7 five double-wide homes, because I would be building a white 8 elephant. So, I am very much against the, to me, 9 overpopulation of this rock hill. It is a rock hill. If 10 you look at the property, it has huge slabs of just solid 11 rock. I don't know how septic tanks will be put in that 12 will not pollute the area. That is my opinion. Thank you. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I'm going to 15 make a comment right quick. I don't know that -- this Court 16 shouldn't even be addressing how many cars are driving up 17 and down a road; that's not our business. But -- but the 18 water runoff and possible contamination of sewers, you know, 19 that's a -- that's a serious deal, and I think that -- that 20 we should at least see if we can't get an explanation, or if 21 there's some -- maybe some professional expertise in the 22 room to advise us on that. But I'm not going to get in a 23 traffic discussion. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a comment similar 25 to Commissioner Baldwin's also. But first, Franklin -- and 9-13-04 32 1 this goes to a comment that was made by somebody about the 2 2 and a half acre. My recollection -- I'm not sure how old 3 the subdivision is; my recollection is that before we did 4 the major rewrite we did five or six years ago for 5 Subdivision Rules, 1-acre lots were acceptable under -- with 6 a water system, which is the same as we have now. So, I 7 don't think we've changed anything in our rules since that 8 time. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: The only difference was the 10 previous -- the '98 version said that the public water 11 system had to use surface water sources. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, but before that 13 one. Before that one, there was a 1-acre, it seemed -- 14 MR. JOHNSTON: There was. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's always been a 16 1-acre minimum with water system, so there's really been no 17 change there. 18 MR. JOHNSTON: Sometimes lots, however, have 19 their own restrictions that are deed restrictions. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But on the -- on 21 the other two issues, drainage and septic, I think there is 22 -- I think there -- you know, I need assurance that there is 23 not going to be adverse drainage impact, and I think our 24 Subdivision Rules allow for that. And -- and it may require 25 a study, I think. It depends. 9-13-04 33 1 MR. JOHNSTON: You have a letter in your 2 packet there, I think, from Bruce Motheral, that did a -- a 3 small study on that. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And -- but, you know, 5 that is a concern. On the septic concern, you know, I share 6 the other residents' concerns about contaminating the 7 groundwater. Septic systems can be put, basically, 8 anywhere; however, the cost may be very high. And I 9 would -- I have a hard time envisioning how a -- a lower 10 income home can justify the cost of a very expensive septic 11 system, but that's not my concern. I think the other 12 residents -- you know, my understanding is that they can put 13 in a septic system, or they can -- we can require a septic 14 system there that works. But we do have our Environmental 15 Health Manager in the audience. He can probably ask that 16 that be -- he can answer that question. Is it possible? 17 MR. ARREOLA: Well, yeah, that's quite all 18 right. You know, with the technology, it's possible to do 19 septics almost anywhere. But I do have a concern on Lots 4 20 and 1. Slopes there are greater than what we normally allow 21 for septics, and based on the information I have -- I 22 haven't been on the property, but the information I have, 23 it's just bedrock, so it's pretty -- pretty difficult to 24 have a good working septic system on that type of slope with 25 that type of material -- that type of rock. So, I -- I'm 9-13-04 34 1 going to submit this back to the developer that it's 2 really -- doesn't really meet standards. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I, too, have concerns 4 about septic seepage into springs. 5 MR. ARREOLA: That's correct. It's just 6 bedrock. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And I'd like to know 8 more about that. 9 MR. ARREOLA: Lot Number 4 and 1 are the main 10 ones. The rest is pretty flat, so there's something that 11 can be done, but those two do have a problem. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what you're 13 down there for. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got one 15 question. That's what -- it would apply to whether or not 16 this would be divided into two lots or five lots. It's 17 going to disturb more than 1 acre. Does that require, under 18 E.P.A. rules, a joint water runoff hydrology study? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good 20 question. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that has nothing to 22 do with this Court. I mean, if it is required, it's 23 required of the developer; it's not a requirement that we 24 look at. It may or may not be. We typically don't -- we 25 try not to enforce E.P.A. rules. 9-13-04 35 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's wise. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just have a 3 question that -- I'm curious. Are there any deed 4 restrictions that set up the size of these lots as to be 5 greater than what's being proposed here? Were there any 6 deed restrictions? 7 MR. TUCK: Morning. Mike Tuck. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Morning, Mike. 9 MR. TUCK: How are y'all doing? Yes, there 10 are some deed restrictions in the deed to a Mr. Linscott, 11 who we purchased the property from, in Volume 360, Page 511. 12 I have several copies of these if you would like it. One is 13 no commercial use, and the other is no -- no tract may be 14 subdivided into less than 2 and a half acres without 15 permission of the developer in writing. And we have the 16 developer, Energy/Land's, permission, and it had been 17 recorded here. They have given their written approval to 18 cut it into smaller tracts if it's approved by the 19 Commissioners Court. And so it's not a blanket deal; it's 20 conditional. 21 I'd like to address some of the concerns that 22 were here. Ms. Ferris was talking about she didn't want to 23 be in a subdivision. Well, Kerrville South Ranches II has 24 got 150 owners in it. It's a huge subdivision; 700, 25 800 acres. Then Mr. Kass, on his variance on the building, 9-13-04 36 1 the restrictions that are on his deed right now call for no 2 commercial use, and he owns two tracts of land there, and 3 one of the tracts is not -- has been cut into two without 4 doing a vacate and replat with the -- with the County 5 Commissioners Court. So, I'm -- I'm trying to follow the 6 rules here. And the land he presently owns has not been 7 vacated and replated through court order. Also, on the 8 drainage, I don't -- the engineer went out there, and it's 9 basically flat. And I don't -- he doesn't think there would 10 be any problem with drainage. 11 And on the spring, we have some topo maps 12 that were done by Gary Brandenberg, and it shows her spring 13 to be 38 foot lower in elevation from the top of the 14 property, and a distance of 350 feet away from the property. 15 And the state regs, I am told, require that a septic system 16 be at least 75 feet away from an existing spring, 125 from a 17 seep, so -- no, excuse me, 50 from a -- a seep, 75 from a 18 spring. And Charlie Digges is the one that told me that; 19 he's an engineer. We've gone to great lengths. Charlie 20 Wiedenfeld has done an environmental report on this and made 21 some recommendations where the septic tanks will be not 22 aerating systems, but low-dosing systems with black soil 23 hauled in, and the cost is going to be approximately $7,000 24 or $8,000. 25 Discussed that with Miguel, and we don't know 9-13-04 37 1 the verbiage to put on that. We're working together on that 2 right now. And 20 years from now, they may have some new 3 system. Twenty-five years ago, we didn't have aerobics, so 4 10 years from now, there may be a system that's far greater 5 than what we have now. The verbiage on the plat right now 6 calls for it to meet the Kerrville standards, and as far as 7 the lot size or configuration, I wasn't aware of that in the 8 Subdivision Regulations. I may be ignorant on that. I 9 would like for Miguel -- when I talked to Miguel, he was 10 going to look up the statutes on the state as far as 11 distance from the spring and the septic tank. And the 12 engineering that was done shows that the water cannot run 13 into her spring, and if that's incorrect, I'm not aware of 14 it. But that's what we have. And Charlie Wiedenfeld has 15 done a report; I would like for him to convey that to y'all, 16 and Gary Brandenberg is here to talk about the distance from 17 the spring and so forth, and I would appreciate y'all's time 18 on that. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me get a clarification 20 here, if I might, please, Mr. Tuck. This is a matter that 21 we need to set a public hearing on. Is that correct, 22 Mr. Johnston? 23 MR. JOHNSTON: Correct. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: So, basically, the matter is 25 on the agenda today for the purpose of advising us that this 9-13-04 38 1 matter is now a proposed replat, and it's something we need 2 to set a public hearing on; is that correct? 3 MR. JOHNSTON: Preliminary plat revision, 4 right. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: So, really, the -- the debate 6 and the discussion, in my -- in my thinking, is to follow. 7 MR. TUCK: Okay. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Looks like we may be trying to 9 do this two or three times here. Which is fine; it's better 10 than doing it not at all, because that way everybody has an 11 opportunity to be heard. But I think, at this juncture, 12 probably where we are is to set a public hearing on this 13 request, to give public notice to all those who wish to be 14 heard in addition to you folks, and possibly others that 15 were heard today, and at that point in time, at the public 16 hearing, we'll take up these various questions and 17 arguments. But, other than that, I think the Court is just 18 trying to convey a sense of concern about the areas that -- 19 that appear to be in question here. 20 MR. TUCK: I know that a final decision is 21 not going to be made here today, and I knew that before I 22 walked in here. But I -- the people who have concerns here 23 are genuine and really concerned, and I would like, if the 24 Court has time, for the people I've brought with me to 25 address any -- any concerns that they had, if y'all have 9-13-04 39 1 time, and also ask Miguel to tell us what he found out about 2 the state statutes. And I'm through with everything I had 3 to say. Thank you, Judge. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Tuck. What's 5 the sense of the Court? Do you want to defer these matters 6 until the public hearing, or would you like to hear them now 7 and later? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I don't know 9 that we would hear the expert-type stuff later. Seems that 10 the public hearing would be for these other folks that live 11 near there, and they're worried about the cars driving up 12 and down the road. I would think that -- I would think that 13 we need to hear it today, so that if we uncover some major 14 problems, they'll have time to work on them and get them 15 fixed. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause I think -- plus I 17 don't know that we have to, but generally we approve a 18 preliminary before we do a public hearing so we know what 19 we're -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- going to do at the 22 public hearing. So, I think it's probably appropriate to 23 hear them. I also have some additional comments, but we can 24 hear from the -- anyone else. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, if Charlie runs 9-13-04 40 1 into 12 o'clock and we all get up and walk out, just keep 2 talking. I mean, somebody will record it. 3 MR. WIEDENFELD: I guess that's my clue to 4 start walking to the podium. Charlie Wiedenfeld, Registered 5 Sanitarian with experience in design work, water, and 6 wastewater. And I was retained by Mr. Tuck to prepare the 7 environmental evaluation per 30 T.A.C., Chapter 285, which 8 is the On-Site Sewage Facility regulations, which is 9 required by y'all's county order also to have prepared. And 10 in that assessment of the properties within a quarter mile 11 of the proposed subdivision, I am to look at the lot size -- 12 address lot size, geography, topography, geology, soils, 13 floodplain, water resources, and then make a summary 14 conclusion. And you've heard most of it today, and I think 15 I'm not going to try to get too elaborate on it. But this 16 area out here is what we would call the Edwards Plateau; 17 some of the highest properties -- country in the area. It 18 does slope off almost 100 percent toward the south, and 19 toward the Ferris'. 20 I've looked at the springs in the area. I 21 identified or am aware of two of them. One of them was 22 brought to my attention by Mrs. Ferris, and we have taken a 23 water sample from that, and that lab analysis indicated that 24 it was contaminated with E. coli. She -- in visiting with 25 her, she has said that she's taken analysis annually, and it 9-13-04 41 1 comes back with similar results. This has been my 2 experience, after working at Upper Guadalupe River lab for 3 20 years; many of our springs in this area are contaminated 4 with E. coli, because these springs are in a -- right under 5 very fractured rock and very thin soils on the very surface 6 lands. Those are very poor filters for coliform bacteria. 7 While they do fairly well with sediment solids and make a 8 very good, clean water that comes out and it looks -- 9 appears good for drinking and we'd all want to take a sip of 10 it, bacteria-wise, those waters generally are contaminated. 11 We -- I've seen everything from bat caves associated with 12 this, bat guano in there, armadillos. Regularly, like in 13 her spring also, you can see in the -- in the orifices and 14 holes in the side of the hill right where her spring 15 collection area is, is open, porous. Animals are 16 continually moving in and out, so the springs in her area 17 are already contaminated. It's commonly found. And I'd 18 already indicated this to her, that it wouldn't be a good -- 19 a good argument that septics would be contaminating a well, 20 because it already probably -- more than probably is. 21 So, I'm -- my conclusion in relation to the 22 septic system is that, you know, the various types of 23 on-site sewage facilities are acceptable, and they are 24 feasible solutions to the disposal of domestic wastewater 25 from the proposed residential development. And since a 9-13-04 42 1 community sewage collection system is not present, this 2 evaluator recommends soil absorption-type systems rather 3 than surface application types because of the departure of 4 wastewater during rainfall events from the proposed 5 properties and down slope toward the springs. And also, I 6 feel like, with the state and county standards for the 7 proper soil types to be used, that you would get adequate 8 treatment for the domestic wastewater, and it would be a 9 good filter for any additional coliform that possibly could 10 migrate. Vertically, it would take at least 60 feet to get 11 down to the elevation of her spring, and horizontally, over 12 200 feet, all meeting state requirements. And, again, my 13 report will be attached to the septic evaluation Miguel just 14 received this morning, and will be -- he will be reviewing 15 that to meet criteria as stated in the septic regulation. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Don't leave. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't leave. 18 MR. WIEDENFELD: Y'all help me. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question I have is, you 20 mentioned that the -- the spring is already contaminated, 21 but is it a possibility that the increased development above 22 the spring could increase the contamination? 23 MR. WIEDENFELD: I would -- you know, 24 logically, I guess, yes, there will possibly be more water 25 movement down slope; you know, down vertically because of 9-13-04 43 1 septics, lawn watering, just additional -- right now, it's 2 vacant, and no water other than rainfall, and so -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In your -- 4 MR. WIEDENFELD: But there will be probably a 5 lot more soil brought into the area for lawns, and which 6 will be, you know, better absorption. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: From -- and this is more 8 a general question, 'cause I really don't think that this 9 has any -- whether it's subdivided or not, this could happen 10 by increased lawn size, things of that nature, and 11 fertilizer, pesticides. Does the type of rock in this 12 area -- does it filter out some of the chemicals in 13 pesticides and fertilizers better or worse, or how does it 14 relate to E. coli? 15 MR. WIEDENFELD: I'm not really -- I'll make 16 an opinion and say that I don't think they will. Rock is 17 not a very good filter. There may be some absorption to 18 some of the rock, but it's predominantly calcium carbonate, 19 essentially diatomaceous earth. It is used in a lot of the 20 filters that you have in the commercial residential-type 21 filters, so it -- but when it comes to bacteria, the very 22 minute particles, it's not a very good -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, Mike, I asked 24 that question just for my personal information, but I -- it 25 doesn't -- this development plan doesn't increase or 9-13-04 44 1 decrease the likelihood of -- of large lawns. I mean, you 2 could have a 2 and a half acre tract with an acre of grass. 3 MR. TUCK: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, you could also have 5 very small -- 6 MR. TUCK: Well, being familiar with the 7 water system that will be serving this place and the water 8 rates that they have, I -- and being consistent with the 9 rest of the neighborhoods up there, I don't think they're 10 going to have a lot of watering activity. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I have a couple 12 questions. Mr. Wiedenfeld, you -- you stated that the water 13 sample that you took -- or was submitted to you for testing 14 showed E. coli contamination in the spring. Mrs. Ferris 15 indicated that she has had it tested, and there was no such 16 finding. How do you reconcile those two things? 17 MR. WIEDENFELD: Well, I listened to her 18 comment this morning, and she stopped and said she had -- 19 she stopped at saying that she has submitted water samples 20 annually. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me ask the 22 question of Ms. Ferris. 23 MS. FERRIS: Yes, I do -- I do it annually, 24 and yes, I have to admit, they said it was -- that it had 25 E. coli in it. And the young lady that I spoke to who does 9-13-04 45 1 the water there, she says for this area, it's the best water 2 that she's seen, but it is contaminated with that. But it's 3 not in -- of course, not in my sink. It's not -- I've got a 4 filtration at the sink. But when you take it from the tank 5 is where I usually take it from, the pressure -- pressure 6 tank, so I know what is coming from there. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 8 Secondly, Mr. Wiedenfeld, does your water company serve this 9 area? 10 MR. WIEDENFELD: Yes. Wiedenfeld Water 11 Works, Incorporated, serves, which I am the president of the 12 corporation. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That lends me, I guess, 15 to my other question; that I don't see here -- do we not 16 require, Franklin, a letter from the water system that this 17 -- there's enough capacity for this additional development? 18 MR. JOHNSTON: We do, yes. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, I was going to 20 ask it later, but since it's the same person, there will be 21 a requirement to that effect. 22 MR. WIEDENFELD: I stuck it in this report, 23 but if you want a separate letterhead, it will be probably 24 more appropriate, yes. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9-13-04 46 1 MR. WIEDENFELD: Thank you. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Tuck, do you have others 3 of a technical nature that you want to present this morning? 4 MR. TUCK: Mr. Brandenberg can testify as to 5 his findings on the spring elevations and distances. 6 MR. BRANDENBURG: My name is Gary 7 Brandenberg. I own Texas Land Boundaries, a land surveying 8 company here in Kerrville, and I am a registered 9 professional land surveyor. And, essentially, I can attest 10 to vertical and horizontal separations of the spring and 11 Mr. Tuck's property. I went out with Mr. Wiedenfeld on the 12 additional investigation of the spring's location, and 13 basically to provide him with those measurements, and 14 essentially my contribution to this cause would be just 15 simply that, as a surveyor and a mapper. I can provide 16 distances in regards to the minimum standards of separation 17 for septic systems and property lines, things of that 18 matter. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What was the distance 20 -- the vertical distance from this property down to the 21 young lady? I've written down 60 feet, but I think it's 22 something a little -- that's ballpark. 23 MR. BRANDENBURG: Ballpark, her spring 24 elevation is at 1880, and the Tuck property essentially is 25 in the neighborhood of 1940. There is a low corner on the 9-13-04 47 1 Tuck property which dips down to, roughly speaking, 1910. 2 So, it -- you could say there's, generally speaking, a 3 30-foot vertical separation at the minimum scenario. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 30? 5 MR. BRANDENBURG: 30 feet. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 1940 down to 1880? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: He said it went down to 1910. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh. 9 MR. BRANDENBURG: Yeah, the low spot. That 10 particular low spot actually would have more of an effect on 11 the Bob Kass ravine than it would on the Linda Ferris 12 routine. But what that water does once it disappears 13 underground, I have no -- you know. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. What about the 15 distance horizontally? 16 MR. BRANDENBURG: The Linda Ferris well to 17 the Mike Tuck property, in round figures, 350 feet would be 18 the nearest -- closest that it gets to it. The -- I did not 19 prepare a distance for the Kass property. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just have one 21 question. I want to direct the question, if you don't mind, 22 to our Environmental Health Department Director. Miguel, 23 what is the minimum state standard for septic migration? 24 MR. ARREOLA: To a water source? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To a water source. 9-13-04 48 1 MR. ARREOLA: 75 feet. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon? 3 MR. ARREOLA: 75 feet. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would be to a 5 spring or a well? 6 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir -- well, not a well. 7 Spring or surface water. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Spring or a seep? 9 MR. ARREOLA: Seep. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, thank you. 11 Mrs. Ferris had her hand up, Judge. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, ma'am? 13 MS. FERRIS: The only thing I want to say is, 14 one thing that I don't know if everybody else is taking into 15 consideration, they're only doing it from the spring -- they 16 say from the point of collection. As everybody knows, like 17 you said, it's all rock up there and caves and caverns and 18 everything underneath, 'cause we have no idea where this 19 spring originates from or where it collects to. Everything 20 is designated by where the point -- where the -- you know, 21 the line goes into the rock. This spring could start in the 22 middle of Mr. Tuck's land. It could be underneath -- you 23 know, who knows where it's coming from? Who's to say it 24 wouldn't actually be more contaminated? But I think the 25 only thing -- the emphasis that everybody is stating is 9-13-04 49 1 where the point is collected, but it never states where does 2 the water start. And that's one of the big concerns. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, we have -- 4 MS. FERRIS: It's the recharge, and it's 5 everywhere. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: At some point, I have 7 to vote on this issue, and I have to base my vote on facts 8 and laws and rules and regulations. I can't base my vote on 9 what might be, or where something might have started. So, 10 you know, Miguel -- if Miguel -- if you're the authority on 11 distances and you know what the state law says, if you're 12 the guy, then at some point, and I don't care if it's today 13 or at the public hearing, you need to state, "You can do 14 this, and you can't do that," and -- so I can vote. You 15 know, this thing of -- of what might happen, who may do 16 what, we can't -- we can't use that as a tool to vote. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I think the 18 other point is that the fact that there's going to be 19 potentially five residences versus two residences doesn't 20 change -- I mean, you could have two huge homes or five very 21 small homes, and they're going to have the same amount of 22 septics, same amount of everything else. So, you know -- 23 you know, the fact that it's going to be more tracts, I 24 think, you know, doesn't sway me as much as the fact that we 25 need to protect -- design systems that protect the 9-13-04 50 1 environment. Whether they're big or small doesn't make any 2 difference. And that's going to be up to the Environmental 3 Health Department to approve a system that meets state law 4 and county rules. And that system -- you know, probably one 5 of the best designs they're working with in most departments 6 will protect the environment. 7 On the drainage issue, which is really the 8 only other issue that I have, I do not think the letter from 9 Mr. Motheral is sufficient. It is just -- it's basically a 10 three-line letter, and it says, "...does not appear to 11 create any flood problems." Well, you know, that is not 12 sufficient as a study. And I think that a little bit -- you 13 know, I don't -- I don't know how far -- I'll leave it to 14 the County Engineer to determine exactly, you know, what is 15 sufficient, but to me that is not enough, based on some of 16 the rainfalls that we have. But just to kind of -- my final 17 comment is, you know, I do not have a problem with the 18 development. I don't -- do not have a problem with the 19 variances. I think variances are appropriate and are 20 addressed in our Subdivision Rules, the variances of this 21 type. My concerns are drainage and septic, and if I'm going 22 to vote for this, I'm going to need to be assured that those 23 two issues are taken care of. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's where I am. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I'm going to 9-13-04 51 1 make a motion to set the public hearing. And I would assume 2 that on October 25th, we will have a public hearing, and I 3 will assume that the very next agenda item would be an 4 approval, for this Court to approve. So, we'll probably go 5 through this again on that day, to -- to satisfy -- and I 6 think Mr. Letz is correct; to satisfy the concerns that he 7 had, and Mr. Williams was -- gave an "amen" to do that. 8 But, you know, be prepared to -- to -- for an agenda item 9 for approval. But it might not happen, either, so be 10 prepared for it not to happen. So, I move that we have a 11 public hearing October 25th, 2004, at 10 a.m. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 14 set a public hearing under Revision of Tract 118, Kerrville 15 South Number II, with variances, on October the 25th, 2004, 16 at 10 a.m. Any question or discussion? 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One comment. I 18 think it probably -- I also want to hear more about the 19 drainage issues. That -- that tends to pop up and cause us 20 some difficulties all around the county. I appreciate 21 Commissioners Letz' comments. I think it's likely that it 22 wouldn't make much difference whether there are two 23 residences or five; they're probably the same, but I would 24 like to hear some more about that in our public hearing. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 9-13-04 52 1 comments? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 2 your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We do 7 have a timed item that was set for 10 o'clock. It's 10 8 after that now, so we'll go to that item, Number 17, 9 concerning investment options for County employees. 10 MS. MECHLER: Good morning. Can I hand each 11 of y'all a ... 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let's be quiet a minute. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I apologize. Is that Mechler 15 or Mechler? 16 MS. MECHLER: Yes, I'm Joyce Mechler. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 MS. MECHLER: I have the Edward Jones office 19 that's right across the street from the courthouse, right by 20 Kerr County Abstract. It's on the corner of Earl Garrett 21 and Main Street. And I've visited with a few of the County 22 employees and with Barbara Nemec a little bit, and would 23 like to offer my services as far as payroll deduction. And 24 so, she said to get that accomplished, I should come maybe 25 explain to y'all what the benefits would be. And -- and 9-13-04 53 1 beside the fact that I'm right here in town to visit with 2 people, I would kind of like to give you an overview of what 3 our office can offer. 4 On the front of that, right now, your county 5 has a 457 plan which allows County employees to do more than 6 this, but most of them probably are not doing their IRA's or 7 Roth IRA's, and so I've kind of drawn a little sheet here to 8 explain the differences. At Jones, you can have an 9 individual retirement account, which is an IRA, a Roth IRA, 10 or a regular account, and the employees would have the 11 option of doing one of the three. Now, every individual is 12 eligible to put $3,000 a year into a retirement plan, which 13 is either a Roth or a regular IRA. Now, if you notice, 14 referring to these two sheets, I ran one of our mutual funds 15 for $250 a month for 20 years, which would be the maximum 16 that a person could invest. And if you use the American 17 funds and you go back 20 years and look at the returns, $250 18 a month would have grown to $254,517, and those are actual 19 numbers that these funds returned. Their 10-year average is 20 13.92 percent. 21 So, what I did is, this illustration is based 22 on that $254,000. If a person had done that in a regular 23 IRA, and then they want to take it out and spend it, it's 24 all taxable. So, if they're in the 25 percent bracket, 25 $254,000, they would lose $63,000 in taxes to get it out to 9-13-04 54 1 spend it. If they do it in a Roth IRA, they grow absolutely 2 tax-free, so there's no tax coming out, and they get to 3 spend the whole amount. And then a regular account, they're 4 going to pay taxes through the year on capital gains, and 5 then at the end, it's going to be another 15 percent to take 6 it out. What we do at Edward Jones is, we get an individual 7 in -- and I've given you a new account package, so this 8 is -- we always sit with every person that comes in, and we 9 spend a lot of time talking about goals, where they want to 10 be, what are they saving for. Because you can't pick a 11 vehicle or an investment until you know what the person 12 needs. 13 And so that's what I'd like to do, is take 14 your employees, give them an hour or two appointment, no 15 charge at all, just to kind of tell them what we offer and 16 talk to them about what they need. Some of them aren't 17 going to need the same as others. Some are going to need 18 regular accounts, 'cause they're saving for maybe weddings, 19 and not necessarily for retirement. Or some are going to be 20 saving for a home, so it's not a blanket investment for each 21 person. Each person needs their individual. So, inside the 22 packet, I've kind of given you some of the tools we use. 23 This financial goal worksheet is in there for the person to 24 fill out so we can talk about what they want to do. And 25 then just a little bit about mutual funds, and I always 9-13-04 55 1 teach them about that before we invest. I mean, you have 2 lots of different kinds of stocks and mutual funds. 3 Now, the second pape under here starts with 4 $254,000, goes back 20 years, and if you had retired with 5 that $254,000 in those American funds, you'd have started at 6 an annual total of $15,000 a year. The 20th year, your 7 annual total is $74,000 to spend, and you still have $1.1 8 million in the account for inheritance or whatever purposes 9 you want to use. So, if you get in the right mutual fund -- 10 you know, there's 11,000 mutual funds out there, so it's 11 just as hard to pick a good mutual fund as it is to pick a 12 good stock. American and Hartford Funds both have managers 13 with 20 years of experience. Their average manager has 22 14 years of experience. We also do C.D.'s, bonds; all of the 15 investments are available in all three accounts. So, what 16 I'm really asking is permission to maybe work with Barbara 17 and offer this to your employees. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question. The 19 question is really probably more to Barbara than it is to 20 you. Now that we're going to have payroll deductions -- or 21 not payroll deductions; we're going to have -- 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Direct deposit. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- direct deposit. Is 24 that why this is coming to us? I mean -- 25 MS. NEMEC: No, that has nothing to do with 9-13-04 56 1 any of this. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- 3 MS. NEMEC: This is -- we have -- currently, 4 we offer the employees, and when each employee signs up, a 5 new employee signs up, we give them a -- a sheet of paper 6 that has available plans, and it just describes everything 7 that the County offers to them. We currently have a 8 volunteer investment program for the employees. That's with 9 Nationwide and VALIC. Some of you may remember that we were 10 with Nationwide for years and years, probably more than 20 11 years, and VALIC came in several years ago and said they 12 basically do the same thing, but they're located in San 13 Antonio, and the employees would have access to them every 14 pay period; they'd be down here answering questions or 15 whatever. Well, that might have happened for the first two 16 months, and we haven't seen them since. So, it's -- we 17 offer that. They do have investment choices. I don't know; 18 maybe some just feel more comfortable with someone local 19 being here, and they've been approaching Ms. Mechler about 20 it, and that's when she called me. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my question is, I 22 don't understand why we need to do anything as a Court. I 23 mean, I think that every employee has a right to work with 24 any investment company they want anywhere in the world. 25 MS. NEMEC: The Court has to give me approval 9-13-04 57 1 to make that a payroll deduction. I cannot just let anybody 2 in here and go sell their products to employees. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And approval as to 4 the plans being offered, for example, from Edward Jones? 5 MS. NEMEC: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or from Wells Fargo 7 or -- 8 MS. NEMEC: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- or from anybody 10 else. So, that means we have to make approvals for each and 11 every one of them? 12 MS. NEMEC: You don't have to, and I wouldn't 13 suggest that. What happened -- several years ago, this 14 happened with our life insurance policy. The Court did not 15 offer life insurance at one time, and the employees 16 panicked; there was no more life insurance offered to them 17 through -- through our health insurance. And so everybody 18 out there that sold life insurance came in and offered life 19 insurance, and at that time, that Treasurer said, "Whoever 20 wants to, just go." Now we go through Franklin Life, 21 Lincoln Life, Colonial Life. You have representatives in 22 here bothering employees all the time. So, no, we have to 23 be selective, and just because it gets out in the paper that 24 one investment firm came in here to try to do this, and ten 25 follow. We have to draw a line somewhere. We can't have 9-13-04 58 1 people going into every department and trying to sell their 2 products to everybody. 3 MS. MECHLER: And that really isn't my plan. 4 You know, I won't be here -- I -- I just want to be 5 available. My plan is not to come market to your employees. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Nemec, do you have a 7 problem with individual employees coming to you and 8 requesting that you do a payroll deduction for whatever 9 purpose, whether it be to a savings account in a bank, to an 10 investment group, a brokerage house, an insurance -- 11 whatever it may be. Do you have any problem with that? 12 MS. NEMEC: The only time -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: If the Court gives you just 14 carte blanche authority to -- to do whatever deductions that 15 the employee requests you to make? 16 MS. NEMEC: I do have a problem, 'cause it 17 gets to be a lot of work. You have all these different 18 companies that you're dealing with. You have billings that 19 you're having to reconcile at the end of each month, you 20 know. I mean, if it's being payroll-deducted, we need to 21 put it in the computer and payroll-deduct it. They send us 22 a billing; we need to reconcile the billing to make sure 23 that what we've payroll-deducted for each employee 24 reconciles with their billing. And if we just let -- you 25 know, leave a blanket open for just anybody to come in here, 9-13-04 59 1 you can get 20 people that we're distributing checks to and 2 reconciling billings at the end of the month. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I think my point is, if -- if 4 it's not permissible for the employee to make the employee's 5 own designation, whoever -- whatever purpose that that 6 employee may desire, if -- if we're not willing to do it on 7 that basis, I certainly don't want to be in a position of 8 selecting one, two, or three different investment products, 9 savings accounts, whatever they may be, and saying these are 10 the only ones we're going to authorize payroll deduction 11 for, because that's not giving that employee the freedom 12 that employee needs in order to make -- 13 MS. NEMEC: They have choices already, 14 though. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to make decisions. 16 MS. NEMEC: They have choices already, 17 though. With this one, that would be a third investment 18 company that's in here. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think what -- what I -- 20 what I'm saying, I think I hear the Judge saying as well, is 21 I don't want to -- I want to get rid of the ones we have. I 22 don't want to add more; I want to eliminate what we have. 23 Because I think that, with the current direct deposit that 24 we are allowing to go to, any employee that wants to enter 25 into any type of direct payroll deduction, they can do it 9-13-04 60 1 out of their personal accounts, you know, just as -- a lot 2 easier. I mean, if I want to give money to buy, you know, 3 funds through whatever -- mutual funds or investment 4 company, whatever, I just set it up through my personal 5 checking account. I don't see why the County should be 6 involved in that. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. I think 8 that, you know, any employee that wants Edwards Jones or 9 anybody else, they can have that -- they can set it up, and 10 that can be drafted on -- on their account instead of ours. 11 MS. NEMEC: The only problem is that it 12 wouldn't be tax-free if they go that route. Am I correct? 13 MS. MECHLER: Well, actually -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't know why not. 15 MS. NEMEC: On certain investments. 16 MS. MECHLER: On the 457, it has to come out 17 before, but not on an IRA. 18 MS. NEMEC: We have two 457's in place right 19 now, which is Nationwide and VALIC. 20 MS. MECHLER: You know, if they did regular 21 IRA's, then it's -- you have -- they can take the tax break 22 at the end, but they don't get it out of their check. And 23 on the 457, I don't know how many -- how much they're doing. 24 They're allowed to do more than $3,000 a year, because 25 they're government employees. 9-13-04 61 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Current IRA code 2 allows them to take it as a tax deduction at the end of the 3 year? 4 MS. MECHLER: If it's a regular IRA and 5 they're not doing more than $3,000 a year. If they're doing 6 more than $3,000 a year, that 457 plan allows them to do 7 more. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: So, we've got two different 9 investment vehicles with specific companies under the 10 so-called 457. 11 MS. MECHLER: I think what I'm hearing from 12 the employees -- and, you know, I'm not picking on those two 13 companies. I don't know much about them, to be honest. 14 It's just that when I have clients and they work here, and 15 I'm looking at those investments, they're really confused 16 about what they own, and I help them pick investments in 17 those vehicles. And I was just trying to offer a way for 18 them to have something local so they can get some help. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't want to take 20 on a lot of additional administrative burden that the 21 taxpayers would have to pay for; however, I firmly believe 22 that anything that can be done to educate employees about 23 the value of regular savings and -- and the powerfulness of 24 the exponential curve, it would -- is worthwhile. I don't 25 -- I don't want to get in the business of selling investment 9-13-04 62 1 things, but I don't mind being -- allowing the knowledgeable 2 people to educate employees about how they can create a 3 million dollars when they retire. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with that, 5 but there's a way to do that so as not to inundate the 6 Treasurer's office or take time away from employees at work. 7 You can conduct semiannual seminars; you can do it in the 8 district courtroom, invite as many participants -- 9 MS. MECHLER: I could do those with no 10 charge. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As many as you want 12 to present, and let them make their choices. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Something like that 14 sounds like a good plan to me. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm concerned now that we've 16 got two specific vendors that are authorized to do something 17 to the exclusion of others, and I don't think that's right. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't either. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't either. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I think if we're going to do 21 it for anyone, we've got to be able to do it -- that same 22 thing for anybody that wants to do that same program. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you say -- did you 24 say Nationwide? 25 MS. NEMEC: Yes, sir. 9-13-04 63 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They've been around 2 here -- they fell off of Noah's Ark in Kerr County. 3 MS. NEMEC: They were here when I got here. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I know. And 5 they -- I used to deal with them. They never produced 6 anything for me. The -- and then VALIC? 7 MS. NEMEC: VALIC. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't understand why 9 they're not up here daily. 10 MS. NEMEC: They presented themselves to the 11 Court that they would be, and that's when the Court voted on 12 it, but we don't see them. 13 MS. PIEPER: Gentlemen, can I say something 14 as an employee that receives a paycheck monthly here? The 15 last two companies that came through here were completely 16 Greek. You know, I -- I didn't even remember who they were 17 until Barbara said it. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They were what? 19 MS. PIEPER: They were Greek. When they came 20 in talking to us, I didn't understand what they ware saying. 21 But her being local, I mean, I think that would be much 22 easier. Because I plan on retiring one of these days, and 23 with these other companies being out of town, not being able 24 to -- to just call them when I need them, I think I would 25 like for y'all to go with her. 9-13-04 64 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's my whole 2 point; we get the guy who speaks in Greek, we get the one 3 that speaks Italian, the one that speaks Australian, the one 4 who speaks English, and let them all come at the same time. 5 MS. PIEPER: I can go talk to her on my own, 6 but if y'all don't authorize the payroll deduction, then I 7 may end up paying more taxes. Is that correct, Joyce? 8 MS. MECHLER: You could. Just depends on 9 your -- each individual. You have some employees that 10 probably have a husband or a wife making enough money where 11 they want to do more than $3,000 a year, and then you need a 12 457 plan. Now, we can do a 457 proposal and roll the 457 13 plans you have now into a 457. I don't think it's any 14 different than, like, our hospital, who has their plan in 15 place. I mean, most companies, even tax-free on 16 governments, put those plans in place through different 17 companies. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I know there's 19 a couple questions, but I think, to me, if we have the 457 20 already in place, I think we have to open it up for anyone 21 that wants to do a 457, but that's it. If you're going to 22 do a regular IRA, do it out of your personal checking 23 account. You get the same benefit out of it. I don't -- I 24 mean, there's a little bit of change as to when you get 25 the -- the deduction, but I just think that it's -- I'm not 9-13-04 65 1 in favor of spending a whole lot of County taxpayer dollars 2 on this. 3 MS. MECHLER: You might want to -- the 457 4 plans have fees associated with them, so you don't probably 5 want to do multiple 457 plans. Like -- 'cause each company 6 will charge you -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand. 8 MS. MECHLER: -- a fee. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that's -- we're 10 opening it up to multiple companies. Hopefully, the 11 employee -- well, the employee -- you know, if they're 12 willing to make -- if it's worth it to them to change 13 companies and pay additional fees, well, that's -- 14 MS. NEMEC: My office cannot handle paying 15 out to multiple companies. I cannot -- we are up to our 16 ears already. That 457 would have to be through a payroll 17 deduction. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- I can't imagine 19 there's that many employees that are going to take advantage 20 of a 457. I mean, I -- 21 MS. NEMEC: Every little thing you add on 22 for -- in payroll deductions adds up. You know, we have 23 AFLAC, we have Flex One, we have our regular insurance. We 24 are payroll-deducting to where a printout used to print out 25 on one page. For each employee -- for an employee, all the 9-13-04 66 1 deductions, it's taking three pages 'cause of all the 2 deductions that we have. On top of what -- what the Court 3 has authorized for payroll deductions, we have child support 4 orders, student loan orders that we have to deduct for, 5 Hilco Federal Savings loans. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's my -- kind of 7 my point. I think we're -- we're potentially throwing an 8 extra burden on a two and a half person department. 9 MS. NEMEC: And I don't mind, but, you know, 10 I may need help. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Unnecessarily. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sheriff, you had a 13 question? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only comment I 15 have -- and I do have an investment account with Edward 16 Jones. There's a number of different Edward Jones 17 representatives here; you'd have to let all of them in, 18 okay? 'Cause mine's a different account. But why -- and 19 mine is -- like you said, Jonathan, it comes out of my 20 checking account. It don't bother me. Why should the 21 County get involved at all in any of it, unless an employee 22 wants to have it automatically withdrawn before, and then 23 that employee can come to this Court and Barbara and ask for 24 permission for that specific one to be taken out, but not 25 let just everybody in. 9-13-04 67 1 MS. NEMEC: It's not cost-effective to do 2 that. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why it doesn't 4 make any difference whether it's drawn before or after. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Truby? 6 MS. HARDIN: I would like to say something. 7 And Nationwide, they came here some -- a little over 10 8 years ago. There are quite a few people at Road and Bridge 9 that have it. We don't have any problem contacting them. 10 We can do it on the internet; we can pick up the phone. It 11 works. We don't have a problem with it. 12 MS. NEMEC: And that's other thing about 13 rolling over Nationwide and VALIC into another one. You 14 have some employees who will tell you Nationwide -- forget 15 it. And then you're going to have the other effect on 16 VALIC. So, you can't tell these employees that they have to 17 roll over what they're -- what the Court has previously 18 approved, and they've been in it for years and years. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Truby, to your knowledge, 20 did most of the employees do a payroll deduction? 21 MS. HARDIN: Yes, payroll deduction. We get 22 a statement every quarter. You can go online and check how 23 much you have, what your -- you can change your -- 24 MS. NEMEC: That's another thing. You can 25 change your investments all the time, so it's not like you 9-13-04 68 1 set up these employees and that's it; you don't ever have to 2 deal with that again. Any time they want to change their 3 investments to more or to less or -- that -- that goes to my 4 office. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just like the 6 insurance; there are enrollment periods. You take the 7 enrollment, you're stuck with it for a year, good, bad, or 8 indifferent. And this is no different than that. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Mechler, you have swatted 10 a hornet's nest here. 11 MS. MECHLER: I'm sorry. I really didn't 12 intend to do that. I could help Barbara with some of that 13 end of stuff. That -- I could be talking to the employees 14 about their changes and doing that part, where that would 15 alleviate that from her office. But I'm just here to make a 16 proposal. And I appreciate your time. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Mechler. 18 MS. NEMEC: If it's okay, you know, 19 Commissioner Nicholson had a good idea, and that's what I 20 look at when things like this come through my office, is I'm 21 willing to do anything that's going to help the employee. 22 And maybe, if I can get with Ms. Mechler and set up a 23 seminar time, and if anybody else contacts me and they want 24 to do the same thing, then fine. But it just wouldn't go 25 through the payroll department. 9-13-04 69 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's -- I'd encourage 2 that. 3 MS. NEMEC: I'd be happy to assist anyone in 4 setting up seminars to educate our employees on anything. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the employees need to 6 have as much information as they're willing to try and 7 absorb about what their -- what their investment and 8 retirement opportunities are, and I think that's great if 9 we -- if we give them an opportunity to have that vehicle 10 available. Thank you, Ms. Mechler. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- along that line, I 12 think it would be better to try to -- for you to pick 13 several dates during the year, maybe twice a year, and have 14 a set time when we can set up and they can come set up here. 15 Our employees can go visit with them, whichever one they 16 want, rather than have, you know, this -- one week we're 17 going to have this one; this week somebody else. That way 18 employees can talk to several at one time and make a choice. 19 MS. NEMEC: I can do that. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's a 21 better -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 23 MS. MECHLER: Thank you. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Why don't -- why don't we 25 stand in recess for about 15 minutes? 9-13-04 70 1 (Recess taken from 10:32 a.m. to 10:42 a.m.) 2 - - - - - - - - - - 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to 4 order. We have a timed item for 10:30 that we'll go to now, 5 consider and discuss permitting the Shannon Air 1 6 Subscription Program available for purchase in Kerr County, 7 and authorize County Judge to sign authorization letter. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We have Mr. Harry 9 Budow with us, who's president of the Y.O. Ranchland 10 Homeowners Association. This is the carry-over of an item 11 that was on the agenda last time, and what we're seeking is 12 a letter from the County Judge to acknowledge that Shannon 13 Air 1 will be offering its services in west Kerr County, and 14 particularly in Y.O. Ranchland Estates. Mr. Budow is here 15 to answer any further questions you have. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why is it that we're 18 involved? 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The Texas Health 20 Code requires that the County acknowledge that it'll be the 21 31st of 30 -- in addition to 30 other counties that Shannon 22 Air 1 is -- is taking subscribers. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And with zero 24 liability to the County? 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's true. 9-13-04 71 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's strictly a 2 contract between this gentleman and the helicopter out of 3 San Angelo? 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: A subscription, yes. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Each resident out 7 there can choose to pay the -- I don't know if it's $39 or 8 $49 a month, and be a subscriber to the service. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it has no impact or 10 effect one way or the other on current EMS coverage? 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It does not -- oh, 12 it could have an indirect effect of reducing revenues, if 13 they -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And increasing costs. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes, indirect 16 effect. If, instead of calling an ambulance out there, an 17 EMS ambulance, if a subscriber opts to pay to call the air 18 service, then we would lose the revenue derived from the 19 cost of that run out there. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we'd also lose the -- 21 I guess what I'm saying is that there's a potential that -- 22 and it's going back to the memo received from the Assistant 23 City Attorney, in that the -- if they call and -- say that a 24 person, you know, calls 9-1-1 and calls Shannon, or however 25 they contact that, we're going to send -- or through our 9-13-04 72 1 contract with the City, EMS is going to be responding; 2 Shannon's going to be responding. One of them's going to 3 transport. The only revenue side to this equation is the 4 transport. 5 MR. BUDOW: If I may, the next item on the 6 agenda, which is also a timed item, is that Kimble County 7 has agreed to act as our first responder and primary 8 responder, so the answer to your question is -- is no, 9 Kerrville would not respond. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That cannot take place 11 until we amend the contract with the City of Kerrville. 12 MR. BUDOW: That's why the interlocal 13 agreement is on the agenda, as you directed the County to do 14 on April 12th of this year, to this issue. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not opposed to it. I 16 just want to make sure you know that the -- that until -- 17 there is a potential adverse effect to the County through 18 the EMS contract -- or through the future EMS contract 19 negotiations unless that area is completely removed from the 20 EMS contract coverage area. And if that takes place, then I 21 can see no effect. But it could -- you know, I'm just 22 trying to -- there's a lot of steps down the road, 23 especially with -- I know we're going to be renegotiating 24 our EMS contract this year, so I just want to make sure we 25 have it all lined up. 9-13-04 73 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a question. 2 I'm not sure that it's a concern, but certainly, I'd like 3 for somebody to assure me that the absence of a First 4 Responder making the recommendation to call the helicopter 5 does not open up anybody for liability. 'Cause the current 6 situation requires a First Responder, I believe -- correct 7 me if I'm wrong -- to make the call for an air -- air lift, 8 if you will. 9 MR. BUDOW: That is within the contract that 10 you have with the City. That is the current situation. 11 Critical Air cannot respond, as I understand it, unless 12 Kerrville EMS calls them. And that is -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 14 MR. BUDOW: -- by contract with the City and 15 Critical Air. Shannon does not have that requirement, and 16 our agreement with them would not require that. They, in 17 fact, today will respond to us on an 800 call, if we call 18 them today, and they respond in this county frequently. The 19 difference that we're talking about is a nuance. In order 20 to be able to buy a subscription, for us to be able to not 21 call them once in a blue moon, but to have them know who we 22 are and to have an ongoing relationship with them at the 23 fixed $49 price, or $39 price, they require -- the state, 24 actually, health, as was suggested, requires the 25 acknowledgment by the County Commissioners so that they are 9-13-04 74 1 allowed into the county. Now, as an individual caller, I 2 can call them. La-Ha can call them. Lots of people do call 3 them, and they can come on a one-off basis. But in order 4 for us to have a relationship with them as the Y.O. 5 Landowners Association and have a subscription service, that 6 subscription service -- because now they're offering a 7 health care service, if you will, in the county -- requires 8 that acknowledgment on your part. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- you know, this 10 is really the question I have. But they are -- this and the 11 next item are very closely related, to me. The interlocal 12 agreement does nothing to change the contract with the City 13 of Kerrville, and we cannot -- the fact that we, if we enter 14 into an interlocal agreement, all of a sudden are saying 15 that Junction is now the primary responder there, as I 16 understand it, the City of Kerrville is still going to 17 respond until we amend that contract, because they're 18 obligated under the contract to do that. So, until -- those 19 two things have to happen simultaneously, to me. Now, the 20 Shannon contract, that could happen today. 'Cause from 21 reading -- my recollection of the memo from the Assistant 22 City Attorney is that our contract -- EMS contract does not 23 preclude us from doing that. It's just -- you know, it 24 doesn't -- it's really kind of -- it's a gray area in that 25 contract, so that can be done. But the interlocal agreement 9-13-04 75 1 does affect the EMS contract, and -- you know, and that's an 2 adverse impact to the rest of the county until the EMS 3 contract with the City of Kerrville is renegotiated. And I 4 don't see that happening -- I mean, there's -- if we were 5 to, at this point -- well, we can't give notice under that 6 contract. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They've already given 8 us notice. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that's for next year, 10 so we're talking about a contract that's going to be 11 renegotiated sometime in the next 12 months. And I'm just 12 concerned as to what happens if we sign this interlocal 13 agreement today. You know, is that a -- a breach? Because 14 a breach may have some other consequences under the EMS 15 contract. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which would raise 17 another question, Commissioner. Why is it necessary -- if 18 the subscribers can call an air service directly, and the 19 air service will respond without the intervention of a First 20 Responder, why is it necessary? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: An interlocal contract? 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We're not talking 23 about Kerr County being a party to this agreement. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I understand 25 that. 9-13-04 76 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Simply acknowledging 2 that they're going to be in our county. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. I'm 4 following up on -- I think we've jumped to the next agenda 5 item, actually. But that's my question. Why is it 6 necessary for us to have an interlocal agreement with Kimble 7 County and City of Junction if the subscribers can deal 8 directly with the air service? What's the reason? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you get -- I 10 think that I understand the reason very well. You get 11 quicker ambulance service. But I just -- my point is that 12 we can -- I am reluctant to enter into that interlocal 13 agreement until the EMS contract's on the table at the same 14 time, because we are changing the intent of that contract. 15 The Shannon agreement, I think we can do that. I don't see 16 any problem with that. I see some potential negatives, you 17 know, but according to the memo from the Assistant City 18 Attorney, it's a gray area, and we can do what we want under 19 that. But I think the other one affects the current 20 contract. Now, I don't know -- you know, the shoe's on the 21 other foot here. The City wanted to renegotiate earlier and 22 we said no. I think we have to look at it the other way at 23 the same time. I mean -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My question is, the 25 item before us, the helicopter deal, if -- and Number 19, 9-13-04 77 1 the Kimble County issue, what if we don't approve the Kimble 2 County issue? How does it affect your helicopter issue? 3 MR. BUDOW: It doesn't. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It does not at all, in 5 any way? 6 MR. BUDOW: No, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 'Cause I -- if I were 8 going to vote right this moment, I would not vote for the 9 Kimble County issue. 10 MR. BUDOW: I guess the only -- it doesn't 11 affect it, other than it puts a burden on the resident -- 12 the citizen to make two telephone calls. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 14 MR. BUDOW: As opposed to, if you were to 15 approve both of these, one telephone call can be made by the 16 citizen. So, you're basically putting the burden back on 17 the citizen to manage their nuances of being in the far west 18 Kerr County. That is, you got a -- you know, you call 19 9-1-1, and you also got to call the air subscription 20 service. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What we're saying is, we 22 don't have a choice. We're under a contract. We can't just 23 unilaterally change the contract that we're under, any more 24 than the City can unilaterally change it like they tried to 25 last month. 9-13-04 78 1 MR. BUDOW: So -- so, for a year now, or a 2 year and a half, we'll need to wait to have an arrangement 3 whereby we can get 15- or 20-minute response versus 45 4 minutes or an hour response from an emergency service, 5 because of your contract with the City? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 7 MR. BUDOW: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because, I mean -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't understand 10 that. 11 MR. BUDOW: Well, what I understood the 12 Commissioner to say was, because there's a contract between 13 the County and the City -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. BUDOW: -- that is nonexclusive, 16 according to the City Attorney, that the County is unwilling 17 to do an agreement with another county for a mutual aid 18 interlocal agreement that might impact a contract between 19 the County and the City. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, what I don't 21 understand is the difference in time you've alluded to. 22 MR. BUDOW: If we dial 9-1-1 now, and Kerr 23 County -- or excuse me, Kerrville EMS responds, it takes -- 24 pick a number -- let's just say -- an hour's a round number. 25 If Kimble County EMS responds, they're able to respond in 9-13-04 79 1 half that time. So, the difference is -- is that they can't 2 respond unless there's an interlocal agreement between the 3 counties. So, if we're to wait for a year and a half for 4 this agreement to be addressed, or a year for it to be 5 addressed, then we will be waiting twice as long for our 6 ground emergency response. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just think -- the 8 difference, I would say, is that the City of Kerrville may 9 say by our next meeting, 'cause we couldn't do it before 10 that, that they're willing to delete the area from the 11 contract. But that's something that -- you know, and do a 12 contract amendment. I don't know if they want to do that or 13 not. I mean, that's a question I don't think has been asked 14 of the City of Kerrville. But I just don't see how you can 15 enter into a -- is it an exclusive contract? No, but I 16 think it's very -- you know, the intent of that agreement is 17 definitely being changed by that interlocal agreement, as 18 currently written, without something happening with the City 19 of Kerrville contract. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This is not a new 21 issue. I think this -- 22 MR. BUDOW: April. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, we had an 24 interlocal agreement with Kendall County EMS service at one 25 time to provide service in -- ground service in Kerr County. 9-13-04 80 1 They unilaterally canceled it after -- after not being able 2 to work out the dispatch protocols that they needed. So, 3 I -- I've asked the County Attorney for his opinion on this, 4 and I haven't gotten it. And I did get a copy of the letter 5 that you did from the -- from Ilse Bailey that appears to 6 say that -- that any barriers to us contracting with 7 interlocal agreement for their service -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mr. Budow, let me ask 9 you a question while they're looking there. Is this -- what 10 about -- what about a neighbor of yours that would rather 11 lay there and wait for the city of Kerrville ambulance than 12 they would a chopper out of San Angelo? Do they have -- do 13 they have that -- is that available to them still? 14 MR. BUDOW: If they want to -- I'm not sure I 15 understand the question. I mean, I'm here to represent the 16 11,000 acres and hundred and some-odd landowners -- 112 17 landowners. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But you have the 19 option to call the -- call an ambulance out of Kerrville, 20 and the chopper out of San Angelo. 21 MR. BUDOW: Depends on the resolution to what 22 we're talking about. If the interlocal -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's pretend that we 24 approve this today. 25 MR. BUDOW: Right. 9-13-04 81 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Will you have the 2 option to call an ambulance or a chopper? 3 MR. BUDOW: I don't believe so. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It would be strictly 5 chopper? 6 MR. BUDOW: No, sir. No, no. When you dial 7 9-1-1, our ideal scenario is you dial 9-1-1; Kimble County 8 EMS is rolling their ambulance, and the Shannon Air 9 helicopter is coming simultaneous to that, so that we are 10 both getting ground service in the most immediate way 11 possible, approximately 30 minutes, and we are getting air 12 service. Those two entities are willing to work together, 13 the air service and Kimble EMS. Different than Kerrville 14 EMS and Critical Air, because of their relationship. 15 Critical Air will not respond until Kerrville EMS is 16 on-site, whereas Shannon Air will respond simultaneous and 17 in parallel with Kimble EMS. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There are many times 19 that they launch a chopper out of San Antonio without being 20 on the scene. But, does -- will your neighbor have the 21 option of getting an ambulance or a helicopter? 22 MR. BUDOW: Yes. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes? 24 MR. BUDOW: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, thank you. That 9-13-04 82 1 was my entire question. 2 MR. BUDOW: Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood 3 ambulance versus -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I guess this is 5 more -- and I guess my concern is that, by entering into 6 this interlocal agreement with Kimble County -- back on the 7 other item, I know -- but by doing that, Kerr County, 8 through its EMS contract with the City, are required by law 9 to send an ambulance out that way regardless of that. I 10 mean, we don't have a choice; we have to respond. If we 11 don't, I think there's a huge liability to the County and to 12 the City. So that, you know, we're tying up two ambulances, 13 one from Kimble and one from Kerr, until we can get that 14 contract modified. 15 MR. BUDOW: I may be mistaken, but don't you 16 have interlocal agreements now with other counties whereby 17 you respond or they respond, depending -- weren't you 18 describing that to me, depending upon where the overlap is? 19 MR. MALONEY: That is with the mutual aid, 20 and what we have currently is with Gillespie County. That's 21 a different basis, because Gillespie County does have part 22 of I-10, approximately 5 miles of I-10 in their response 23 area. But that is with Gillespie County strictly, not with 24 Kimble County as far as theirs. 25 MR. BUDOW: But the same situation -- I guess 9-13-04 83 1 what I'm trying to understand, if that situation exists with 2 Gillespie County now, how would having the same mutual aid 3 agreement with Kimble County be -- be different? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the difference 5 is, as I see it -- it's not that it can't be done. We can't 6 unilaterally do it. 7 MR. BUDOW: It needs a contract amendment 8 between the City of Kerrville and -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10 MR. BUDOW: -- and the County. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 12 MR. BUDOW: Of course. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 14 MR. BUDOW: Right, which is what you 15 originally directed the County Attorney to do on April 12th 16 at this meeting, when we first brought this up, and now I'm 17 just resurrecting it five, almost six months later. And -- 18 and being a little bit disappointed that we're supposed to 19 now wait another year in order to -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You do not have to wait a 21 year. I'm just saying the contract, I know, is going to 22 be -- we've been given notice that the contract's going to 23 be renegotiated. 24 MR. BUDOW: It's not simple. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hopefully this can be 9-13-04 84 1 resolved, you know, much sooner than that. I don't know why 2 the City of Kerrville wouldn't want to give up -- or 3 wouldn't agree to give up this area. I'm just saying I'm 4 reluctant to enter into an interlocal agreement where we're 5 going to have two ambulances now being sent to the same 6 house, thereby tying up two ambulances. I don't think 7 that's what you all want. 8 MR. BUDOW: No, we want to relieve the city 9 of Kerrville from responding to that obligation. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's what I think 11 needs to be done. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And I think Ilse 13 Bailey says that it's okay. It's not specified the County 14 is prohibited from utilizing other service providers. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think it's -- I 16 think it is. I'm not going to vote to send an ambulance out 17 to far west Kerr County on a run that's totally useless. 18 And they have to do it under our contract until the contract 19 gets changed, because then we're taking an ambulance totally 20 out of service that could help other people in the county. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we approve the 22 interlocal agreement, Kerrville will not be making those 23 runs out there. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, they will. They're 25 obligated under our contract. We've got to change -- I'm 9-13-04 85 1 saying we have to change the contract with the City of 2 Kerrville. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's not Ilse 4 Bailey's opinion. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, it is. They're 6 going to still respond. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Not specified that 8 the County is prohibited from utilizing other service 9 providers. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But it -- okay. 11 Well, like I said, I'm not going to vote to send an 12 ambulance out to west Kerr County for no reason. Yes, we 13 can do it, but the City of Kerrville is still going to 14 respond to every call out there until the contract gets 15 amended. Am I -- am I right? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For the record, who 17 is this gentleman, please? 18 MR. MALONEY: Eric Maloney. 19 MR. AMERINE: He's supervisor of Kerrville 20 EMS. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It wasn't on the 22 record who it was. 23 MR. AMERINE: I just want to make one 24 comment, and this addresses part of this question. And I've 25 spoken to Mr. Budow and the Y.O. Ranchlands about their -- 9-13-04 86 1 9-1-1 will not change their call protocol until that 2 contract amendment that Commissioner Letz is talking about 3 is addressed and there's an interlocal agreement. We will 4 not customize per-citizen how we do 9-1-1 calls. We have a 5 standard protocol. Or else what you'll have in front of the 6 Court and in front of the City Council is, "Well, for this 7 particular citizen or that subdivision, I want to be called 8 differently." And we deal in standard protocols, because 9 you can't have a 19-, 20-year-old dispatcher with 50 or 60 10 or 150 different protocols for calling out emergencies. 11 Now, this particular one is not a big deal. I just want to 12 make that clear. Once this amendment to the contract is 13 established and there's an interlocal agreement, our 14 dispatch function for all those addresses that reside in the 15 Y.O. Ranchlands will be simple. We'll call both the 16 Junction EMS and this air flight support out of San Angelo. 17 And EMS -- and this is what Mr. Budow was suggesting -- for 18 Kerrville will not respond unless Junction EMS, who's a 19 basic service EMS, says, "We cannot provide the life 20 support," or San Angelo air is not available. It's -- they 21 only get dispatched in the occasion that they're not getting 22 the support they need from Kimble County. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Amerine? 24 MR. AMERINE: Yes, sir? 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's my 9-13-04 87 1 understanding that 9-1-1's involvement in this -- this 2 system -- this process ends when the telephone call ends. 3 MR. AMERINE: That's true. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, the protocol for 5 calling out emergency services is not a matter for 9-1-1. 6 MR. AMERINE: I'm just telling you how 7 that -- that the City will not do 150 -- I'm just -- again, 8 I should not be representing them, but I'm talking -- the 9 9-1-1 protocols are based upon standard protocols. And 10 truly, Commissioner, you don't want each individual citizen 11 who wants to be called differently in front of your Court 12 asking for a different protocol. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What I want is for 14 the citizens in far west Kerr County to get adequate 15 emergency service. 16 MR. AMERINE: Certainly. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And right now, I 18 don't think it' adequate. And, again, I'm going to have to 19 listen to the County Attorney and the -- the City -- 20 Assistant City Attorney on their opinions about whether or 21 not -- 22 MR. AMERINE: Certainly. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- the contract 24 needs to be amended. It's my opinion it does not need to be 25 amended. 9-13-04 88 1 MR. AMERINE: You're absolutely correct. I 2 want to clarify something, 'cause I think this is constantly 3 confused; then I'm going to sit down and let Mr. Budow stand 4 back up. The Health and Safety Code requires -- gives me 5 liability to make sure that dispatch does the appropriate 6 job; in other words, that they are dispatching the 7 appropriate agencies. Very clear. That when a 9-1-1 call 8 comes in, that the appropriate responding agency is 9 contacted. That's where my responsibility ends. We, 10 through a contract with the City of Kerrville, have given 11 that full discretion to the City on how to accomplish that 12 task, but I still have a play in that. I still will advise 13 and consult the City on what the appropriate protocol will 14 be. I don't think the City would do it anyway; you know, 15 what I'm talking about is do multiple nonstandard protocols 16 for individuals, special interest groups. So, it's a real 17 simple thing. It's a real simple thing to have a standard 18 protocol for this homeowners association, but two things 19 have to happen; an interlocal agreement with Kimble County, 20 and that contract amendment. I don't -- I don't take calls 21 from citizens that say, "I want to be called this way." I 22 refer them back to the Court and to the City to resolve 23 those issues. That's my only point. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My only comment is -- and 25 I don't -- maybe I read this differently than the 9-13-04 89 1 Commissioner of Precinct 4 did. I'll read the sentence or 2 phrase. It says, "I note that Kerrville EMS is still 3 contractually obligated to respond to these calls." That, 4 to me, means that they're going to send an ambulance there, 5 and for no reason. And that's just wasting money and 6 putting other citizens, you know, in jeopardy. So, I think 7 that -- you know, to me, it's a simple thing. We go to the 8 City and say, "Will you eliminate this geographic area from 9 your primary area and make it a secondary area?" And I 10 don't know why they wouldn't say yes. I mean, it's -- you 11 know, but I think that has to be done before I'm willing to 12 do an interlocal agreement. Unless one of the -- City or 13 County Attorney says that I'm reading that wrong. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Seems to me like we have two 15 distinct issues before us today. One is the -- the major 16 issue of whether or not these citizens should have the 17 ability, by subscription to an air ambulance service, to 18 call those people directly and say, "I need your help," and 19 this county incurs no liability or responsibility for. And 20 then the second deals with the -- the primary responsibility 21 for ground emergency medical services, be they First 22 Responder or -- or EMS. I would think the First Responder 23 would be the same in nearly every case. If we've got some 24 in the area, they're probably going to be affiliated with 25 the appropriate agency where they live that serves that 9-13-04 90 1 area, I would think. But that may be another sub-issue 2 there. But, on the first issue, I think the decision is to 3 merely acknowledge that they're accepting subscribers, and I 4 think the indication from the Assistant City Attorney 5 clearly indicates that the whole issue of -- of air 6 ambulance was outside the parameters of the contract at the 7 time it was thought of, so I think where we really are 8 having a problem is with the second issue. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do too. It doesn't 11 matter -- I mean, you know, if they want to get a -- a 12 steamboat out of Michigan, I don't care. You know, that's 13 your business. But the second issue, I do have some -- a 14 couple of questions about it. I didn't realize that we 15 could talk about it quite openly, 'cause you haven't called 16 it yet. But -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Certainly be easier when I 18 call it, won't it? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Obviously. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'll have beaten it 21 to death by then. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I make a motion that 23 we -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got some 25 questions, Commissioner -- oh, you're going to do the -- the 9-13-04 91 1 chopper thing. Very good. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That we authorize 3 the County Judge to sign a letter acknowledging that Shannon 4 Air 1 will be providing air ambulance services to the Y.O. 5 Ranchlands Estates. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 8 further question or discussion? All in favor of that 9 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 10 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let 14 me now call the next item posted for 10:45. It'll be a 15 brand-new item for all of us, I'm sure. (Laughter.) 16 Consider and discuss an agreement for the Kimble County or 17 the City of Kerrville (sic) EMS provider to assume 18 responsibility as primary responder for 9-1-1 emergency 19 calls made from Y.O. Ranchlands Subdivision. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think the deal 21 with this one is for us to be -- as a group, to be clear 22 about what additional input or information we need to vote 23 on this the next time we have a Commissioners Court meeting. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. My -- my 25 concern is that -- again, back on the other issue. If you 9-13-04 92 1 want a helicopter, that's your business, and I see how that 2 works pretty clear. But I do not see how the ambulance 3 service out of Junction -- I'm not real comfortable with 4 that thing. And it's your life, and, I mean, obviously -- 5 obviously, you're taking your life in your own hands, but 6 there are other citizens out there that -- that I'm 7 concerned with. I don't know that they are in big agreement 8 with you or not; I don't have any idea. But I'm 9 wondering -- Junction, they are -- they're a volunteer 10 service. Yes? 11 MR. BUDOW: Yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. How many 13 ambulances do they have in service there? Two, right? 14 MR. BUDOW: Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Two. And I just 16 wonder if they -- if they have really thought through this. 17 Say they have an ambulance going to the Y.O. Ranch and one 18 at an automobile accident out on Interstate 10, and the 19 County Judge has a heart attack in the Commissioners 20 Courtroom, which I wouldn't understand, but -- and they -- 21 they don't have an ambulance to get him. You know, that 22 bothers me a little bit. What do they -- who's going to -- 23 who's going to own what after that lawsuit? Is -- is Kerr 24 County involved in any way? Any kind of liability in that? 25 You know, I just wonder if -- I'm not taking one side or the 9-13-04 93 1 other. I'm just expressing -- I have a concern about that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And they're 4 volunteers. You stated that it would take Junction half the 5 time that it would take the City of Kerrville to respond. I 6 don't know that that's true. They're volunteers. What if 7 their ambulance drivers are out building a roof out on the 8 ranch? How long is it going to take them to get down, get 9 in an ambulance, and get going? 10 MR. BUDOW: The half a dozen instances we've 11 had so far is the only evidence I have. And the result, at 12 least with the fire -- Kerrville Fire -- excuse me, the -- 13 the fire group, after you provided us -- gave us the ability 14 to move to them as a direct first responder, was better than 15 halftime response. But will it happen every time? Can it 16 be that way? No. But the citizens of this area, the 100 or 17 so landowners that we've polled and that I represent and am 18 an elected official representing them, feel like the hour 19 time -- the golden hour that my heart is either not beating 20 or beating, is best spent getting any help -- professional 21 help to me as fast as I can get there, and any delay in that 22 process is putting me at risk. And Kimble, volunteer or 23 not, appears to have, after four or five months thought -- 24 they didn't immediately hold up their hand and say, "Oh, 25 please let us do this." They're not soliciting us; we're 9-13-04 94 1 soliciting them. And they took five months, all this time 2 while we were considering these various issues, to both -- 3 both staff and train, and they're prepared to handle us. 4 And so, while your questions are -- are absolutely the right 5 ones, they are the same ones we've asked, and it's the same 6 ones that your citizens in far west Kerr County have 7 concluded is the best solution for them under the 8 circumstances. We'd rather have Kerrville EMS with a 9 station on the front of -- you know, on our ranch, but that 10 isn't going to happen, and I'm not here asking you for it. 11 I'm just looking for an alternative solution. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'd like to hear 13 from Kerrville EMS. 14 MR. MALONEY: Commissioners, the one thing I 15 do want to bring to your attention, 'cause I don't know if 16 it was -- and Commissioner Baldwin did bring it up, is that 17 the two services are not the same. Between Kerrville -- 18 Kerrville is MICU-capable, so we run with paramedics on 19 every ambulance. So, when you're getting there with a 20 paramedic, our best that we can do is as much as most of the 21 air services, with the -- with the exception of a few. 22 Junction does not have that. You may get a paramedic. Then 23 again, you may just get two basics who respond there. 24 Getting two basics to respond there is the same thing as 25 this County has been doing now. It has been providing the 9-13-04 95 1 First Responder program, and we do have an AED in the area. 2 In talking to Bill about this, there will be the one concern 3 that, currently, to get a First Responder into Y.O. 4 Ranchlands or anywhere that we do, we do page out through 5 the radios. So, Junction will have to resolve this problem, 6 because we do have some that do work on the Y.O. Ranch or in 7 that area, so they would not be getting that First Responder 8 if we do switch over to Kimble County. Not that -- it's not 9 a bad thing, and don't get me wrong, but we would also have 10 to work out that issue there, since we do provide the Kerr 11 County First Responders. 12 MR. BUDOW: Don't you agree -- I mean, when 13 we met, you and Chief Holloway both, I think, agreed with us 14 that the fastest we could get a response out there was our 15 best -- was the thing we should do in our best interests. 16 MR. MALONEY: Right. But also, at the same 17 time, I do think some good points have been brought up. And 18 I think some -- some things have been brought up that does 19 make them seem like it's the same service. I do want to 20 bring it to your attention, because you did mention it, that 21 it is not the same service. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The quality of care. 23 MR. MALONEY: Yes, sir. Kerrville is, you 24 know, top-notch. That's nothing to say against Junction, 25 but the level of certification is -- is major. It's a major 9-13-04 96 1 issue. So -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I kind of -- I 3 agree. We should be predisposed to trying to assist in 4 finding the best way to get medical service out there as 5 quickly as possible. And I don't believe that we have to 6 wait a year to resolve the issue. But I -- I am on the same 7 page with Commissioner Letz with respect to the -- the 8 Assistant City Attorney's analysis of the situation, of 9 which she says, following up on the quote that Commissioner 10 Letz said, that the County's cost under the contract might 11 therefore be adversely impacted by any agreement that we 12 permit another emergency service to receive payment for a 13 service that's also provided by Kerrville EMS. We have an 14 open issue with respect to this between the City and the 15 County that has to be resolved. Essentially, that boils 16 down to economics. And, so, I'm -- I, for one, would like 17 to figure out if we have -- or determine whether or not we 18 could amend the existing agreement before it is open for 19 negotiations as a whole to accommodate what you'd like to 20 see. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to -- I'm 22 going to put this back on the agenda for two weeks from now, 23 and going to ask that the County Attorney and the City 24 Attorney -- Assistant City Attorney, if she chooses to, be 25 here, and anyone else representing the City that could give 9-13-04 97 1 us some input to make a good decision. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think what needs -- 3 what I would need to be in favor of this is for the City to 4 amend the contract and say we are -- in this area, we are no 5 longer the primary responder, or primary -- whatever the 6 terminology is, for this area; we are secondary. 'Cause I 7 think there's -- I mean, the interlocal says they're still 8 going to be a backup. That, I think, addresses some of 9 Commissioner Baldwin's concerns of only having two 10 ambulances in Kimble County. But that's what I need. I 11 mean, I just need -- so we're not sending -- or so the City 12 of Kerrville is not sending an ambulance out there for no 13 reason. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, let me redo my 15 question one more time as to my concern. I'm going to 16 change it around just a little bit. What if both of their 17 ambulances in Junction are busy there, and they cannot get 18 to the Y.O., and a person is hurt bad or even dies? Now, is 19 there any liability on the County for that, that we're 20 not -- we're not responding at all? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe the interlocal 22 agreement is set up that Kerrville is the secondary 23 responder. 24 MR. BUDOW: That would be correct. And if 25 they are also busy and can't respond, then that's -- 9-13-04 98 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think -- 2 MR. BUDOW: -- that's the way that works. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think what 4 Commissioner Baldwin says is an important point, because a 5 system has to be set up, because when it's toned out through 6 9-1-1, it's going to Kimble county. Somehow, Kimble County 7 is then going to be responsible to get it back to Kerrville 8 EMS that they can't make this response. And this happens 9 frequently in eastern Kerr County between Kendall and Kerr; 10 there's lots of problems with that relationship. But, you 11 know, there is that stabilizing issue. 12 MR. BUDOW: You gentlemen have sort of said 13 that two things would have to happen. I would be ecstatic 14 if I came back the next time and those two things had 15 happened. One is amending the EMS interlocal agreement, or 16 at least determining that that is an option prior to waiting 17 until the end. So, that's question number one, is between 18 the City and the County. That agreement, can it be -- may 19 we amend it? And then item number two is the interlocal 20 agreement, then, between Kimble County and Kerr County in 21 order to facilitate first responder and second responder 22 backup. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 24 MR. BUDOW: And I appreciate the reason why 25 all those things need to happen. I'd just like to happen -- 9-13-04 99 1 to address them and come to a resolution. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I got one more 3 question. I think it was already addressed by 9-1-1, but 4 I'm not sure. How -- and Rusty may get in on this deal. 5 How, when you set off the tones, are you con -- how do you 6 contact Junction? By pigeons or smoke signals? Or do they 7 have radios? 8 MR. AMERINE: I don't know the answer to that 9 question. That's something we're going to have to -- I was 10 talking to Eric -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what Eric's 12 talking about. 13 MR. AMERINE: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right. 15 MR. AMERINE: Right now, when we tone out 16 First Responders on a medical emergency, it does automatic 17 calls to all radios in the county. The First Responders 18 know the area of response. They hear the location of the 19 emergency and then they respond appropriately. I don't know 20 if -- and this is something that, legitimately, before any 21 interlocal agreement is set up, aside from the contract 22 amendment with the City, we'd have to find out if Junction 23 EMS can respond to those radio calls, if they can receive 24 them and respond to them. That would be something that 25 needs to be a prerequisite. 9-13-04 100 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If they could not, 2 would you have to rely on a telephone? 3 MR. AMERINE: We would have to do telephone 4 or page. We currently page Junction Fire -- Volunteer Fire 5 Department with respect to that. We've already adjusted 6 that. So, obviously, radio is quicker than page, and we've 7 talked about the problems with geographic coverage with 8 pagers and reliability of pagers. Radio is the best way to 9 go. And, according to Lee Hall, who's the fire chief out 10 there, they get all the radio calls that they can receive. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 12 MR. AMERINE: So -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is another 14 issue. I hate to raise it, but there is potentially another 15 -- potentially another issue. We provide, by contract with 16 the City of Kerrville, a certain amount of funding for this 17 purpose, to provide the EMS service. Is there going to be a 18 charge from Kendall County -- Kimble County for EMS service? 19 MR. BUDOW: No, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Similar to what we 21 have by contract with Kerr County? 22 MR. BUDOW: No, sir. I asked that specific 23 question, based on Commissioner Nicholson's question, and 24 their answer is no. They -- they are not looking for a 25 charge on the interlocal agreement or mutual aid agreement. 9-13-04 101 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just thought I'd 2 get it out there on the record. 3 MR. BUDOW: That's a good question, 4 economics. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My final comment is, I 6 appreciate -- I mean, I appreciate all your legwork, because 7 you're going to save me some legwork, 'cause we need to do 8 something in eastern Kerr County as well. And it's -- and 9 I'm thinking of making notes on all the things we need to 10 talk about. 11 MR. BUDOW: I'm here to help. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: If I can make a comment, 13 the one thing I would have a concern over is what Bill 14 was -- was getting to earlier, is your 9-1-1 dispatchers are 15 -- in our situation, are also police dispatchers for 16 Kerrville Police Department. Problem is, if they end up 17 with a different list of -- if the call comes from this 18 area, you have to call this ambulance service or you have to 19 call this helicopter, you have to call -- I think it's -- 20 it's going to hurt the response totally. Why -- in the 21 negotiations with the City of Kerrville and with Kerrville 22 Fire Department/EMS, why shouldn't that interlocal agreement 23 be from Kerrville EMS to Kimble County, to where that 9-1-1 24 call is still dispatching Kerrville EMS? If they need help 25 getting somebody out there quicker, they contact Kimble 9-13-04 102 1 County or they contact, you know, Comfort or Fredericksburg, 2 like I've heard them do a lot of times when we're already 3 having problems getting somebody there. But that way, your 4 dispatchers aren't calling the wrong one and putting 5 liabilities on people that shouldn't be. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a pretty good 7 point, Sheriff. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The quickest way of 9 getting help, and let them work it out with the different 10 responding ambulances. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What I would like to 12 hear two weeks from now is for our EMS expert, the boss -- 13 that's you -- to say, "Yes, this is the right thing to do 14 for these reasons," or, "No, I've got these concerns about 15 the safety and health of people in west Kerr County, and we 16 need to consider something else." I'd like -- I'd like to 17 hear your opinion on this. 18 MR. BUDOW: Do I need to bring a bunch of 19 folks to convince you that I'm representing a bunch of 20 folks? Or -- 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, we have it on the 22 record; you finally said it, that you're the elected 23 official and you represent every one of them. 24 MR. BUDOW: It's -- yeah. Yes, sir. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all I need. 9-13-04 103 1 That's all I need. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But you're welcome to 3 bring a bunch of friends if you want. 4 MR. BUDOW: No, I think that -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on that 6 particular item? 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Lord, I hope not. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. 9 MR. BUDOW: Thank you, gentlemen. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: In the interest of time and 11 accommodating those that are here with us today, it's been 12 suggested that we move on to Item 23, consider, discuss, and 13 take appropriate action on BB air rifle target range on 14 Youth Exhibit Center property. Commissioner Williams? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. I 16 asked you to move it up, 'cause our friend Arthur has been 17 sitting back there monitoring this all day, and while this 18 may be morning entertainment, it's getting close to lunch, 19 and he may have other things he'd like to do as well. Since 20 the last time this was on the agenda, Mr. Nagle and I 21 visited with the -- or made an appearance -- he, basically, 22 more than I, made an appearance before the 4-H folks to talk 23 about the integration of this particular project that 24 Mr. Nagle has an interest in into a 4-H program. The last I 25 heard from the Extension Agent was that there was a 9-13-04 104 1 willingness to do that, but they were in the process of 2 gathering some more information and so forth, and I haven't 3 talked to them within the last week or so. Mr. Nagle, I 4 wanted it on the agenda, and so, Arthur, it's all yours. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Arthur, can I ask you 6 a question? Then I'm -- you're through with me. 7 Geographically, location on the property. Where do you 8 propose it? 9 MS. NAGLE: Behind the major building, next 10 to the fence pertaining to that road behind all this 11 property. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Got me. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right behind the goat 14 barns. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Goat barns. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or pig barns. 17 MR. NAGLE: Ag Barn. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Behind the hog barns, 19 where you put the hogs back there, between that building and 20 the public highway? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's my 22 understanding. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Up near -- against the 24 fence back there or something? 25 MR. NAGLE: That's right, sir. 9-13-04 105 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somewhere in that 2 general area. 3 MR. NAGLE: That's right, so it'll be out of 4 the way with other activities occurring at that property. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think they're thinking 7 back over more away to the east. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I was thinking that. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Back behind the barn, the 10 horse barn. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what I thought 12 in the beginning. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That area is used -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that the area 15 behind the horse barn or behind the hog pens? 16 MR. HOLEKAMP: I think he's talking about 17 behind the hog -- hog barns. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I 19 thought, behind the hog barns. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That area is used 21 extensively right now. That's where we store all the dirt 22 and sawdust and all kinds of stuff. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And a road. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And a road. 9-13-04 106 1 MR. NAGLE: The range will be next to that 2 storage of sawdust and dirt and what-have-you. Those two 3 large piles of dirt, be next to them. But they are 4 overgrown with weeds and so on, so they haven't been touched 5 for quite a while. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's not stock show 7 season yet. 8 MR. NAGLE: Last time when I appeared, I 9 asked for permission to build a BB air rifle target range on 10 public property. I felt we had a desire and a need, and it 11 would be a supporting activity to have the target range 12 available to dad and mom and the use of their families. It 13 also would be a place where people could -- adults, 14 particularly, could improve their aiming and their shooting 15 pertinent to fall and wintertimes. Since then, Commissioner 16 Williams has very graciously taken a look at the property 17 that we thought might be the best out there, and he 18 concurred, and this is immediately behind those big -- that 19 big building, the Ag Barn, behind the pig pens, next to the 20 piles of dirt. I do not believe that it will interfere with 21 any other activity, such as parking for activities of an 22 agricultural nature. Since then -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, sir. 24 MR. NAGLE: -- we have come up with the rules 25 of the use of the target range, which is the first page of 9-13-04 107 1 your handout. And you will note on that first page of the 2 handout, over on the right-hand edge, there's a picture of a 3 soldier. The purpose of that picture is to give a picture 4 of where his trigger finger is. His trigger finger is away 5 from the trigger. Very important safety rule, as we point 6 out in the front. No weapons ever pointed at people. No 7 weapons ever with your finger on the trigger. No weapons 8 loaded, unless you are ready to shoot for some reason. 9 You'll also note from the rules that there must be what we 10 call a range boss, an adult on the premises at the time. 11 The range boss will be authorized and directed to use a 12 couple of rules and use a couple of orders. One of the 13 orders is, "Rifles down." When that occurs, then you can go 14 forward and retrieve your target, or place it if you want, 15 or replace it and put up the new target. 16 If you noticed our ad in Friday's paper for 17 the air rifle target range, you noticed that there were 18 adults in that picture with the ad. The -- I envision that 19 there will probably be as many, and maybe more, adults using 20 this range than youth. That's because, over on the last 21 page of your handout, you'll find in the number of officers 22 running the club, there will be a teams facilitator, and -- 23 and then, secondly, a reporter. The teams facilitator will 24 be a person or persons who will be out looking for teams of 25 four persons to represent either a business or a club or 9-13-04 108 1 some type of activity that they would like to have their 2 name in the paper occasionally for having been outstanding 3 in their -- their team, or in shooting at the range. I, for 4 one, think once in a while, maybe that ultimate target for 5 all of us to work on would be a ladies team out of the First 6 Methodist Church against a ladies team out of the First 7 Baptist Church, and then the winner having to go against the 8 ladies team out of the First Presbyterian Church. I think 9 you would get the entire city out to be looking at this. 10 These rules are for every shooter, not just for youth. 11 We're not pointing this up for youths; we're pointing it up 12 for the adults. We want the Kerrville target range for air 13 rifles to be the center of air rifle shooting in the hill 14 country, and I would like, gentlemen, for you to vote in 15 approval of same. By putting the range on, I will have to 16 pay for its construction, since you all are short of money. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me make a couple 18 points to the Court about -- about this, and this proposal, 19 where we are. When Arthur and I have talked, on those 20 occasions we have talked, I did indicate that if -- if it 21 were to be outside the area that we have talked about -- I 22 think I talked to you, too, Glenn, about it -- would be a 23 suitable area. However, I also made the point that I 24 thought this program best fit under 4-H, and I think if 4-H 25 is to take this program in as a part of its mission, it 9-13-04 109 1 would have to be inside in the range. And I think that's 2 kind of where Arthur and I come apart a little bit. He 3 prefers it outside. If it's to be a part of 4-H, they would 4 prefer it to be inside so that it's under their control, 5 with their safety -- their rules and their regulations and 6 their personnel. The other concern which I've expressed to 7 Arthur on a couple of occasions is -- has to do with safety, 8 in that if it's out there, and there is -- there are no 9 adults available to supervise the activity, and -- and young 10 folks or old folks, whomever, show up with BB rifles, is 11 there a liability or is there a problem? And I think that 12 question needs to be addressed to the satisfaction of the 13 Court. 14 MR. NAGLE: The rules that will be in -- 15 available to every shooter, whether they are a youth or an 16 adult, describes that if there is only one shooter at the 17 range shooting, no problem. It can even be one youth. No 18 problem, because he has to put his -- the rifle down in 19 order to go get his target to change it. If there are two 20 persons shooting, there must be an adult on the range known 21 as a range boss. Now, that adult does not have to be 22 related to either of these two youths, but I see the range 23 being used a lot of times by adults of this community who -- 24 where even one of these adults would have to assume the role 25 of range boss and order "Rifles up" or "Rifles down." When 9-13-04 110 1 your rifle's down, then people can leave the firing range 2 and firing position and go and change their target or put up 3 new targets. When the order is "Rifles up", then everybody 4 is back on the firing range, firing positions, and no one is 5 by the targets, and you can commence shooting again. 6 We have -- we have, under -- under safety, we 7 have the parents who bought the rifle for the youth, and 8 also, hopefully, as we talk about teams where the parents 9 are going to have a rifle for use in their team shooting, 10 they're going to be concerned about and instruct their youth 11 how to operate. I've had -- I hear of certain mamas who are 12 asking that their small youth commence with BB air rifle 13 shooting, rather than commence with .22 rifle shooting. 14 They have complained about their kids isn't big enough, 15 heavy enough to hold the .22. They don't know anything 16 about sighting the rifle. They don't know anything about 17 where to put their trigger finger on their barrel of their 18 gun. And they would like to see this BB air rifle 19 ability -- facility available to start the youth there, and 20 then move them into the better -- the better weapons as they 21 would go. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Nagle, I have -- I 23 mean, I think it's a good project, and I applaud you for the 24 time you've put into it, obviously. But I see it really 25 working one of three ways, 'cause I don't want the County to 9-13-04 111 1 be in a position where we're running this, and I don't see 2 how -- because just by letting any organization do something 3 on our property, I still think we're responsible. So, to 4 me, it has to come either under 4-H, or the County has to 5 enter into a lease agreement with the -- with an 6 organization, if we can find a piece of property that we're 7 willing to set aside for a long period of time, similar to 8 what was done with Little League, and lease that property to 9 you, and then you can do what you want, you know, subject to 10 the terms of the lease. And that removes -- and there would 11 be insurance requirements and other requirements there, 12 which I think protects the County and gets it removed from 13 us. That's the -- I don't see how it can work otherwise, of 14 just having a facility out there on County property. 'Cause 15 once it's out there, the County -- anyone can use it 16 whenever they want, and if someone gets hurt, we will get 17 sued. So -- we'll probably get sued if it's done under a 18 lease agreement, but that way at least the responsibility of 19 the insurance is put off on the organization doing it. 20 Another option which you may be interested in 21 pursuing is talking to Little League. Little League has 22 a -- everything on the other side of the road is County 23 property that's leased. There is property that is available 24 over there. I mean, and most of it that can be used for 25 baseball and softball fields has been utilized, but there is 9-13-04 112 1 some areas that can be used, and you may be able to enter 2 into a sub-lease agreement with Little League to get part of 3 their property, where it wouldn't interfere with our 4 operation at the ag facility. And then, with Little League, 5 you may be able to -- you know, economy of scale -- get 6 insurance, parking, things of that nature. Unfortunately, 7 I'm no longer part of that organization, so I can tell you 8 who to contact, but it's not me. But I think that may be -- 9 I think Little League will probably have to come to the 10 County to get an amendment to the lease to allow it, but to 11 me, that seems like a better approach. 'Cause I just -- I'm 12 real uncomfortable with putting it on County property 13 without having a -- either a lease agreement or something to 14 really insulate and protect the County, and also insure the 15 long-term upkeep and maintenance of the facility. That's 16 kind of where I am. Either 4-H or some sort of a lease 17 agreement. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think under 19 4-H is a good place for it, and I've encouraged 4-H to do 20 it. 21 MR. NAGLE: Well, we'll turn, then, our 22 papers of design and -- and rules and what-have-you to 4-H, 23 and 4-H can do -- you can use 4-H where -- however way you 24 want it. I'll be out of it. But we just won't have 25 anything to do with this. That's perfectly all right. But 9-13-04 113 1 I don't see how, when I'm putting this up -- I will not be 2 putting it up now. When I was to be putting it up as a 3 public facility, I'm giving you the range with all that it 4 has for the public to use anytime. You can't make money 5 with this. It's not a money-making operation. It has to be 6 free. It has to be something that is geared to the family. 7 I wanted the family. I wanted adult teams to be using this, 8 and to be representing the businesses of the City of 9 Kerrville and -- and Comfort and Ingram and what-have-you. 10 I guess there's no way to bring those two together, and so 11 I'll just give all my papers to Roy, and he can do what he 12 wants, and I don't care. But Roy -- by turning it in to 13 4-H, Commissioner -- and that's the purpose of us talking, 14 is to decide what's the best way to do -- and I don't 15 disagree with what Commissioner Letz is bringing out. But 16 4-H is not going to emphasize adult utilization, just like 17 they don't involve anybody else in using their .22 target 18 range right now, except about five or seven people. That's 19 it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the mention that 21 Commissioner Letz made about an option of seeing if the 22 Little League organization might be interested in it, and 23 that would allow both youth and adult participation by going 24 that route, so you may want to give -- you may not want to 25 put all your eggs over in one basket. You may want to meet 9-13-04 114 1 with both of those organizations. And if you're -- if 2 you're really concerned about the adult participation, look 3 more to the Little League people. I'm sure Commissioner 4 Letz can tell you who's -- who the leadership of that 5 organization is, even though he's not in the middle of it 6 now. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- and I think -- I 8 don't think they'd be interested in running it, would be my 9 guess, under their charter, but I think they would produce 10 the property and do a sub-lease. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think the property 12 is much more attractive over there with the Little League 13 area. Kind of -- it's more rustic behind the baseball 14 fields, back up in there. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: By the water tank, 16 there's some area that's pretty much unused. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good 18 suggestion. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the other comment I 20 would -- in lieu of this, is just if -- if it proceeds, as 21 far in lieu of using bales of hay, you might try to get a 22 bunch of -- someone just to donate some fill dirt, make a 23 big pile of dirt to shoot into. That will be more 24 permanent, as opposed to hay. I'm thinking of -- I drive up 25 and down the highway and I see all these bales of hay that 9-13-04 115 1 slowly just start falling over and rotting, whereas a big 2 pile of dirt can be packed, and probably get donated, and 3 be -- from a maintenance standpoint, might be a lot easier. 4 But we -- that's another whole -- 5 MR. NAGLE: That has to be worked out, 6 because it should be over 5 feet high. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 8 MR. NAGLE: To get the height of 5 feet, you 9 have to have a pretty broad base. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Okay. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. We appreciate 12 you being here today. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One more question 14 for Mr. Nagle. You've mentioned that it would be good to 15 promote competition between various groups like the 16 Methodists and Baptists. Do you think you could get some 17 competition between the Republicans and Democrats, if you 18 could find four Democrats? 19 MR. NAGLE: No. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What about the City 21 and County? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That's where I thought he was 23 going. Thank you, Mr. Nagle. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let's get it on. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's come back to Item 6, if 9-13-04 116 1 we might. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We'll get a 3 spit-and-whittle contest going. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Consider revision of plat for 5 Lots 6, 7E and 7W into 6R of Falling Water Subdivision, 6 Precinct 2. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I believe that 8 Item 6 and 7 both need to be pulled. They're posted 9 incorrectly. Those are both in The Reserve Subdivision at 10 Falling Water, not Falling Water. They're not posted 11 properly. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I would -- I've 14 advised the developer that that's the case. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: As to 6 and 7. Okay, let's 16 come to Item 8, consider revision of plat for Lots 41A and 17 43B into 43R of Falling Water. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: May I make a comment on 19 this one? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it please the Court, 22 I'd recommend we handle 1.8 through 1.14 together. They 23 were listed as a single public hearing and were handled that 24 way. They are all in Falling Water Subdivision, and they're 25 all combining lots and making larger lots, and I would 9-13-04 117 1 recommend approval on all of them. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hear, hear. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I second. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like that. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You figure out how to 6 make that motion. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Let me first call 8 the agenda items in question. Item 8, consider revision of 9 plat for Lots 41A and 43B into 43R of Falling Water; Item 9, 10 consider revision of plat for Lots 46A, 46B, and 47A into 11 46R of Falling Water; Item 10, consider revision of plat for 12 Lots 121A and 121B into 121R of Falling Water; Item 11, 13 consider revision of plat for Lots 122D and 123D into 122R 14 of Falling Water; Item 12, consider revision of plat for 15 Lots 123B and 123C into 123R of Falling Water; Item 13, 16 consider revision of plat for Lots 127A and 127B into 127R 17 of Falling Water; and Item 14, consider revision of plat for 18 Lots 141A and 141B into 141R of Falling Water. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now, Judge, I think I 20 spoke a little prematurely. Now I'll make a motion for 21 approval of Items 1.8 through 1.14. 22 MR. SPENRATH: If I could, right quick, Item 23 1.11 and 1.14, I Fed Ex'd those out. They didn't send me 24 the plats back, so those plats are not being presented to 25 the Court today. They will need to be approved onto the 9-13-04 118 1 next agenda item. 2 MR. JOHNSTON: Or we could approve them 3 subject to -- you know. 4 MR. SPENRATH: Or we could approve them -- 5 MR. JOHNSTON: Record them as they come in. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're all the same. 7 MR. SPENRATH: They're all the same. Every 8 one of them is the same. 9 MR. JOHNSTON: Just the owners. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can approve them all. 11 There's no problems with any of these, Franklin, are there? 12 MR. JOHNSTON: No. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're all exactly what 14 we want to see happen. 15 MR. SPENRATH: Okay. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll second the 17 motion. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 19 approval of Items 8 through 14 on the consideration agenda. 20 Are we required to have a public hearing? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've had a public 22 hearing. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any further question or 24 discussion? All in favor of that motion, signify by raising 25 your right hand. 9-13-04 119 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, before we move on, 6 and I did not check -- Franklin, you might check the public 7 hearing for 1.6 and 1.7, and make sure those were a separate 8 public hearing, or if they were combined under the Falling 9 Water public hearing. If that was the case, we're going to 10 have to do a new public hearing for -- 11 MR. JOHNSTON: I'll check the records. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, very good. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question. 14 Is -- is this -- we're combining lots and making them 15 larger. Does that mean the market is -- the people want 16 larger pieces of property? 17 MR. SPENRATH: You'll get no market analysis 18 from me. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Brad's kind of stepping 20 back on that. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Jon, what do you see 22 out there? That's what it sounds like. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, I think it's -- 24 it goes both directions. I think some of the lots, and I 25 suspect these are, are kind of strange configured lots. And 9-13-04 120 1 they're -- and I think the attempt is probably to make them 2 more marketable by combining them, changing them a little 3 bit. I know some of them -- I'm not sure if it's that, but 4 I have talked to the developer, and on some occasions, some 5 people are buying multiple lots, and they want the developer 6 to combine them into one lot before that purchase is 7 consummated. They basically want him to bear that expense. 8 MR. SPENRATH: Of these nine, seven of them 9 have already been -- had transactions on them. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 11 MR. SPENRATH: So they're already sold. 12 People own them. They bought two lots, and they want to put 13 them into one. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. So -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're going to have 16 some money out there. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Requiring the developer 18 to do it. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on that? Let's 20 move on to Item 15, if we might, consider and discuss 21 resolution thanking members of the Airport Advisory Board 22 for their service. Commissioners Letz and Williams. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the agenda. 24 I think the backup's pretty self-explanatory. However, I 25 apologize to the Court that I never got around to writing 9-13-04 121 1 the resolution that I said I was going to write. But, 2 basically, the point of this is we had an Airport Advisory 3 Board for a number of years, and then we now have a -- the 4 airport -- a Joint Airport Board. Two of the members, 5 Mr. Miller and Faught, were on the Advisory Board and were 6 not carried over into the new board, and I just thought it 7 would be appropriate for us to prepare a resolution of -- or 8 a certificate of thanks to them. And I think we could 9 probably dispense with this today if we just authorize 10 myself and Commissioner Williams to prepare a resolution for 11 the County Judge to sign, and basically outlining our thanks 12 for their service in the community. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm just wondering, 14 Commissioner, along those lines -- we've talked about it. 15 I'm just wondering, since the Advisory Board has now gone, 16 they all served on the Advisory Board, and they're all gone 17 off of that board. We have reappointed two to move forward. 18 I wonder if we shouldn't do that same thanks to all of them 19 who served on the Advisory Board. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's a good point. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Sounds like the proper 24 approach. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll draft it, and 9-13-04 122 1 we'll do it for all of them, and we'll go from there. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are you thinking that may 4 not happen if I -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. I'll send it 6 over to you, then you can edit it and send it back. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Third. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can I make the motion 10 and second it too? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion 12 that -- that Commissioner Williams and Letz will draft a 13 resolution offering thanks to the members of the Airport 14 Advisory Board and authorize the County Judge to sign same. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion and second. 17 Any questions or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 18 signify by raising your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Next 23 item is consider and discuss declaring trees in the 24 right-of-way of Hermann Sons new bridge as surplus. Just -- 25 there's a method to the madness. 9-13-04 123 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess there must 2 be. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I put this on the 5 agenda -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Commissioner, can I 7 point out the clock? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, I'll be going -- 9 we're not going to spend a whole lot of time on Hermann Sons 10 today. The project's up and going. Contract's going to be 11 let next month. There are a number of large pecan trees 12 right in -- in the road right-of-way. Been working with 13 TexDOT; as many of the trees as possible are going to be 14 saved, but some are going to have to be cut down. The 15 thought that occurred to me was that pecan wood is somewhat 16 valuable wood, and someone may pay to take those -- cut 17 those trees down and haul them off for us, thereby saving 18 the County money from cutting down trees, bulldozing and 19 burning them. So, as I understand it -- and I see the 20 County Attorney here, so he can correct me if I'm wrong 21 here -- if we declare the trees as surplus, then we can 22 pretty much put them out for bid and contact anyone we want 23 to and see if they want to, you know, either pay us some 24 nominal amount, or some amount, or just take them and cut 25 them down for free and do what they want with them. 9-13-04 124 1 MR. MOTLEY: I don't know what kind of 2 condition the trees are in, if they're leaning over or what. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not counting the 4 one on the trailer. We're talking about -- these are 5 growing trees. 6 MR. MOTLEY: I think that's right. I think 7 they do probably have value. It may not be apparent to the 8 average citizen, but I think to the right person, those 9 things have a lot of value. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I'll make a motion 11 that we declare the trees surplus in the right-of-way for 12 the new Hermann Sons Bridge. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval of the agenda item. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. So we're 18 declaring them surplus, which means that if somebody's 19 interested, they contact us? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only one I can think 22 of offhand would be Charlie Forster, the Wooden Nickel. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Exactly. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who has the equipment 25 to take them down and move them. 9-13-04 125 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Who are they going to 3 contact? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I was just going 5 to -- I mean, I was actually going to contact Charlie 6 Forster, and also some of these others, just a couple of 7 them around here, see if they're interested, or we can put 8 it -- maybe the paper -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I mean, what 10 about someone out there -- Triple L from Bandera, who does 11 he contact to find out about the location and -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Letz. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Myself. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And give them -- be 15 sure to print his home phone number. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: His e-mail address, 17 too. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: The surplus pecan tree guru. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pecan tree. Any 20 cypress trees out there? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe they're all 22 pecans. We avoided all the cypress trees, I believe, but 23 there are a couple pretty nice trees, and they're, you know, 24 tall, straight trees; should be of value to somebody. I 25 just hate to see them bulldozed and burned up when they're 9-13-04 126 1 of value to somebody. And, like I said, it would save the 2 County money, which we can hopefully use on the project in 3 Commissioner 1's precinct. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a German, see? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's see. We have a motion 6 and second. Any further questions? 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah, I've got 8 40 acres of cedar I'm going to declare surplus. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further discussion on the 10 motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your 11 right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's 16 move on to Item 20, consider and discuss renewal of an 17 Interlocal Cooperation Contract between the Kerr County 18 Sheriff's Office and Texas Department of Public Safety for 19 the purpose of administrating Fugitive Apprehension Program. 20 Sheriff, if my understanding is correct, we just annually 21 renew this, and if you pick up a certain kind of felon, why, 22 you -- you get a little bounty on this deal? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's it. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that correct? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's exactly right. 9-13-04 127 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Move to approve. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 4 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 5 discussion? All in favor, signify by raising your right 6 hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Do we 11 -- do we want to wander into 21, gentlemen? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd as soon dispatch 13 22. That shouldn't take but a second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Why don't we go to Item 15 22, then? Consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on 16 easements acquisition for Kerrville South Wastewater 17 Project, Phases II and III, approve the compensation, and 18 authorize County Judge to execute appropriate documents and 19 correspondence. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. My 21 -- my agenda backup statement pretty well tells the story of 22 why these easements are necessary and how we got to this 23 point. Being unable to work it out with LDB Corporation, 24 which would have been a longer easement around a larger 25 property perimeter, and probably the costs associated with 9-13-04 128 1 acquiring that and the extra linear feet of pipe more than 2 equal what we -- would surpass what we're doing here. So, 3 if there are any questions about it, I'll be happy to answer 4 them. The funds come from the grant. And a budget 5 amendment is there for -- to support the fund transfer from 6 one line item to another for property acquisition. And I 7 would move the approval of the easements. County Attorney 8 is drafting the appropriate documents, and may even have 9 them as we speak. 10 MR. MOTLEY: Not quite. I talked to the 11 engineer over at Tetra Tech, and he didn't have answers for 12 some of the questions that I had spoken to you on the phone 13 about. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 15 MR. MOTLEY: It was after hours Friday. I'm 16 going to need to -- he told -- he directed me to U.G.R.A. I 17 need to talk to you about who you would contact over there. 18 He had some -- there's some technical answers he didn't have 19 for me. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's what? 21 MR. MOTLEY: Cameron -- there were some 22 technical answers -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Technical. 24 MR. MOTLEY: -- questions he did not have an 25 answer to. He referred me to U.G.R.A., and I need to get 9-13-04 129 1 with you and see who you think I should contact over there. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, fine. Be happy 3 to do that. 4 MR. MOTLEY: I could meet you here in just a 5 minute. I'm pretty close to having them done. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Those technical 7 issues are not an impediment to the Court approving 8 easements? 9 MR. MOTLEY: No. No, they have to do with 10 issues such as use of the easement for other uses. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 MR. MOTLEY: And, you know, such as that. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 14 MR. MOTLEY: Maintenance. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 19 approval of the agenda item. Any questions or discussion? 20 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 21 hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Why 9-13-04 130 1 don't we break for lunch now? We'll be in recess until -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- 1:30. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Before -- what's our -- 5 what's your plan for attacking this afternoon's agenda? Do 6 you have a court docket at 3 o'clock? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, but if that needs to 8 wait, it can wait. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I don't -- I 10 presume we're going to go straight into a budget workshop at 11 1:30. Or are we? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we'll -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm wondering how we're 14 going to do it, because some things are more time-sensitive 15 from the standpoint of getting this budget moving than 16 others. I was just curious as to -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You know, we put it on one 18 agenda. I can -- I can reconvene the court meeting, then 19 recess that and go into the budget workshop. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Kind of a mix-and-match deal, 22 but I wanted to make sure that we had the items that were -- 23 that we needed to take action on, mainly the last three, as 24 actual agenda items, so we wouldn't have that difficulty. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That leads to the 9-13-04 131 1 question, then, is the posting the way it is, Judge, is it 2 your -- is it your intention that those are action items in 3 the budget workshop? Or is the budget workshop separate and 4 apart, and those are action items in the open agenda aside 5 from the budget? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: They're aside from the -- 7 aside from the workshop. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: That's why they're listed -- 10 they continue to be enumerated in the same order as the 11 agenda items. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just wanted to be 13 sure, because a budget workshop is not an action -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: No. No, it's not. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- scenario. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, we're going to 17 be here most of the afternoon. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What time? 1:30? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, mm-hmm. 20 (Recess taken from 12:01 p.m. to 1:30 p.m.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's come back to order, 23 reconvene the meeting of the Commissioners Court posted for 24 this time and date. What's the preference of the members of 25 the Court? Would -- would you like to get into the budget 9-13-04 132 1 workshop or finish up some items on our court agenda, or 2 what's your pleasure? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's finish the 4 court agenda. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm a court agenda 6 guy. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was a budget guy. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Boy, we got a race 10 developing here. What about -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, and my reasoning 12 is, I believe there's some pretty tight timelines we have to 13 meet on budget. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I think that it's -- 16 I don't know how much time Ms. Rector needs to get this 17 stuff moving and posted, and the papers -- 18 MS. RECTOR: Well, I needed to get it to the 19 paper by noon, but -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the sooner we can get 21 to a vote on some of those things, that's pretty important. 22 MS. RECTOR: Yes, so that I can get it 23 printed and get it to the paper today, 'cause it's got to go 24 in tomorrow's paper. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, with that consideration 9-13-04 133 1 in mind, we will recess the Commissioners Court meeting and 2 I will call to order a workshop that was posted for this 3 time and date at 1:30, which it's just a moment or two after 4 that, that being a budget workshop. 5 (The regular session was closed at 1:32 p.m., and a budget workshop was held, the 6 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 7 - - - - - - - - - - 8 JUDGE TINLEY: I will reconvene the 9 Commissioners Court meeting for this date that was recessed 10 earlier today at approximately 1:30, and we'll come back to 11 the agenda. Would it be appropriate to go to the last item 12 on the agenda, Number 28, because of publication deadlines 13 that we want to get accomplished? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call Item 28, consider 16 and discuss approval of the proposed Fiscal Year 2004-2005 17 tax rate and set a public hearing on that. We've each been 18 presented with the tabulations furnished by the Tax Assessor 19 and the Auditor. I believe that's the one we just made the 20 correction on. And if -- I'm looking at the calendar that 21 the Tax Assessor has furnished for us. Are we still going 22 on that September 14th date, Ms. Rector? 23 MS. RECTOR: Yes -- for the publication? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 25 MS. RECTOR: I've got a space reserved as 9-13-04 134 1 soon as I can get it in. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: So, the 21st will be okay 3 also? 4 MS. RECTOR: Public hearing on the 21st. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: That's on a Tuesday, is it 6 not? 7 MS. RECTOR: Yes. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And we can't finalize 9 that thing on the meeting on the 27th? 10 MS. RECTOR: No, 'cause that does not give me 11 the 3- to 14-day window that I need for the publication. So 12 that's why I revised it to adopt on the 30th, so that I can 13 get my second notice in on the 24th. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The 30th is on a Wednesday? 15 MS. RECTOR: We have to adopt the rate by the 16 30th. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: What day of the week is that? 18 MS. MITCHELL: Wednesday. 19 MS. RECTOR: Wednesday. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And, Ms. Rector, this 21 particular vote is a record vote, is it not? 22 MS. RECTOR: That's correct. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion that 25 we adopt the tax rate as follows for '04-'05 year -- we have 9-13-04 135 1 to do it by item, don't we? 2 MS. RECTOR: You're not adopting it today. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What are we doing? 4 MS. RECTOR: Approving the proposed rate. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, a motion to approve 6 the proposed rate. We need to read each one out, probably. 7 MS. RECTOR: Okay -- well, the total rate. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: The M & O rate and the Road 9 and Bridge rate. The total of the -- of the M & O rate. 10 MS. RECTOR: The total Maintenance and 11 Operations rate, and then your Road and Bridge. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Motion to approve 13 the M & O rate of .3412, and a total Road and Bridge rate of 14 .0309, for a total county rate of .3721. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 17 the approval -- approval of the proposed '04-'05 tax rate as 18 indicated in the motion. Any discussion? Comments? 19 Questions? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 20 your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, let me take the record 23 vote. Commissioner Baldwin? 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Aye. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Williams? 9-13-04 136 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Aye. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Aye. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Nicholson? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Tell me again what 6 I'm voting on? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The proposed Fiscal Year 8 '04-'05 tax rate, for a total of .3721. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This isn't the final 10 vote; this is proposed? We're going to have a public 11 hearing? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Then we're going to 14 vote on it again? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Aye. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Nicholson also 18 votes aye. Do I need to go ahead and -- 19 MS. RECTOR: Yes. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Chair votes aye also. Okay. 21 Now, public hearing on the proposed FY 2004-2005 tax rate. 22 Do I hear a motion setting that for September 21st at 1:30 23 p.m.? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved, Judge. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 9-13-04 137 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 2 set a public hearing on the proposed Fiscal Year 2004-2005 3 tax rate. Any question or discussion? All in favor of the 4 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: We don't need a record vote on 9 that one? 10 MS. RECTOR: No. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Didn't think so. Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's -- that's the 13 21st? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: 21st at 1:30 in the afternoon, 15 Tuesday. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. What's the consensus of 18 the Court about those last two items, as opposed to going 19 back and doing the clean-up on the rest of the agenda? I 20 don't think there's -- we have a compelling requirement like 21 we did on the publication, do we? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Set salaries? Didn't 23 we have three items on our agenda that had to be dealt with? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: That has to be published also. 9-13-04 138 1 MS. MITCHELL: I need to have that to her 2 tomorrow by noon. No later than noon tomorrow. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Tommy? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: You also have the Lake Ingram 5 Estates Road District. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we've got that here on 7 the addendum. Why don't we just go ahead and do the Lake 8 Ingram Estates now? That was set for 2:00. We're an little 9 bit past that. I'll call Item 29, discussion and adoption 10 of the tax rate for Lake Ingram Road District. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move to approve 12 the proposed tax rate of .87 for 2004-2005. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 the proposed adoption of the Lake Ingram Road District tax 17 rate for '04-'05 at .8700. Does this one require a record 18 vote? 19 MS. RECTOR: No. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Any question or 21 discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 22 signify by raising your right hand. 23 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 25 (No response.) 9-13-04 139 1 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. That 2 gets that one done. Okay, why don't we come back to Item 3 26, consider and discuss approval of the proposed Fiscal 4 Year 2004-2005 public officials salary, and set a public 5 hearing on the same. Question. Are we going to -- if it 6 gets published on Wednesday, there's not going to be enough 7 time to have this included? 8 MS. MITCHELL: On the 21st? No, we have to 9 have at least -- it has to be no more than 30 days, and not 10 less than 10 days. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can do it on the 30th. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Why -- why couldn't we do it 13 -- why couldn't we do it on the -- no, we couldn't do it on 14 the 24th, could we? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can do it on the 27th. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Or 27th, yeah. That's what I 17 was thinking about, our regular Commissioners Court day. 18 The schedule for public officials salary, I don't have one 19 before me. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't either. 21 MS. MITCHELL: No, because we haven't gotten 22 it finalized. 23 MS. NEMEC: I turned in some figures to 24 Kathy, and she gave me a sheet a little while ago so that I 25 could compare it to my notes, and there are two 9-13-04 140 1 discrepancies that we probably need to talk about. One is 2 probably just a calculation error on my part, and that's on 3 the County Attorney's office, so I'll check into that real 4 quick. The other one was on the County Judge's salary. I 5 thought -- what I understood was that I was supposed to take 6 the base salary, add 3 percent cost-of-living, plus the 7 $1,300 increase for elected officials, and knock down all 8 the rest of the supplements that were on that salary, and 9 those were going to be paid through fees. But with the 10 figures that Kathy gave me, it looks like those were 11 included on the salary. So -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: There's two supplements that 13 -- that are included in there. One is a state supplement 14 that has always been included. The other is the Juvenile 15 Board. The others are strictly salary items, and they go 16 over into the salary. That's -- that's how that got to 17 where it is. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Those two supplements go 19 in with the salary stuff, right? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: No, they're -- they were shown 21 in previous years, and -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, they're shown 23 separate, but they -- FICA and all that stuff goes in with 24 that stuff? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah. 9-13-04 141 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 3 MS. NEMEC: Okay. Just as long as we're in 4 agreement, 'cause I understood it totally different than 5 what's on here. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now the mental health 7 issue is kind of like on a contract basis? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's handled totally 9 off to the side. There's no payroll taxes or any of that 10 stuff paid. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What did you understand? 12 I guess I'm trying to -- I don't see how there could -- 13 MS. NEMEC: Well, here, I'll just show you a 14 for instance. This is what I -- what I worked off of. If 15 you see the top line there, the County Judge's salary, the 16 forty thousand -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 18 MS. NEMEC: I understood to take that amount, 19 add 3 percent plus $1,300, and that -- and then the $10,000 20 supplement with -- that's from the state, and the $1,200 is 21 from the Juvenile Board. But those other two supplements, I 22 understood those were going to be the fees that were going 23 to be paid to the Judge through Accounts Payable. But it 24 looks -- what they're proposing for the Judge's salary is 25 $53,192 on this Elected Officials Salary that was given to 9-13-04 142 1 me a little while ago, plus $11,200 for the supplement. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait. 53 -- 3 MS. NEMEC: 192. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 192. I don't see that. 5 I mean, it should be 40,665 times -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, and then add the nine. 7 That's the -- the County Court salary there. What -- what 8 is in this figure is whatever the COLA's are added to the -- 9 see, this -- you're working off a prior year, so this four 10 was added back here. So, you got that figure plus this 11 figure, and then the three on there. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where's the -- the mental 13 health stuff? Wasn't it down -- wasn't it here? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That's it here, right here. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You wouldn't add that 16 back in there and then add it back into the salary. 17 MS. NEMEC: That's what's confusing me, 18 'cause that looks like what it's doing there, and that's not 19 what I understood, so I just want a clarification. I don't 20 want anything to come back on me. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just the -- what I don't 22 -- I mean, this is the -- this $4,000 -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- was the mental 25 hospital supplement that we've changed how we do that 9-13-04 143 1 completely, right? You get paid -- that's based on the 2 number of hearings you hold? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, mm-hmm. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Whatever that money is, 5 you get it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That's right. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's gone. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What was the $5,716 last 10 year? Where is that? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: It used to be 97 -- or 12 $9,000-something. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: But it got reduced to five; we 15 put the four down here. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But what does -- 17 where does that come from? What's that money for? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a -- that's a salary 19 under the County Court budget that's been there for years. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The County Court. So, 21 then -- well, then, to me, you would add the base salary 22 plus the -- going on -- be $40,665, plus $5,716, times -- 23 MS. NEMEC: 3 percent. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- 3 percent, plus 25 $1,300, or whatever that number is, is what the salary 9-13-04 144 1 should be. Isn't that right? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That sounds right. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me see. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can tell there's a 6 lawyer involved in this stuff. 7 MS. NEMEC: Just give me a figure. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I just zeroed it out. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: What happens to the $4,000 10 that got taken out of the original $9,700? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The $4,000 goes. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: That's going to be on a 1099. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's on a 1099. Based 14 on however many hearings he does, he gets -- 15 MS. NEMEC: That's my understanding. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- he gets paid for that. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the same with 18 the J.P.'s, too. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Same as J.P.'s, and 20 that's not even considered in their salary. If they do the 21 work, they get paid. If they don't, they don't. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: 53,192 or 3. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Something like that. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 53,192. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Uh-huh. That's what I just 9-13-04 145 1 calculated, 53,192. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: County Judge? Yes, 3 that's what it says. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. And I got there the 5 same way that you indicated. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Take that, that, and 7 that, multiply it by -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: 1.03, and then add $1,300. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10 MS. NEMEC: Okay. So, then, it's ready. If 11 y'all are in agreement with that, it's ready. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Should the County 13 Surveyor be on here? 14 MS. NEMEC: He has never been on here. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We just allocate the 16 money in Contingency and -- 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I know we don't pay 18 him -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We pay him way too 20 damn much already. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I just -- 22 procedurally, should he be on here? 'Cause it says elected 23 officials, and he are one. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, do we need a 25 motion, Judge? To the effect of what? 9-13-04 146 1 JUDGE TINLEY: I've got a red "X" drawn 2 through one I got here. 3 MS. MITCHELL: That's because that was just a 4 format. I didn't have the date for the hearing to -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. All right. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We approve the schedule 7 and set public hearings. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Public hearing for the 27th. 9 Do I hear a motion to that effect? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At 10 o'clock. So moved. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded 14 for -- to approve the proposed FY '04-'05 public officials 15 salary and set a public hearing for September the 27th at 16 10 a.m. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a Monday. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a regular meeting day, 19 mm-hmm. Any question or discussion on the motion? All in 20 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Okay, 25 why don't we go back now to Item 21, consider, discuss, and 9-13-04 147 1 approve a proposed agreement between the Kerrville Christmas 2 Lighting Corporation and the Court in reference to the 3 installation, storage, and take-down of the Christmas lights 4 on the courthouse during the holiday season. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're on. 6 MS. MITCHELL: What about 1.27? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll get to that. 8 MS. MITCHELL: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We've been trying to 10 work with the County Attorney to simplify this process and 11 accomplish what the Court wanted to see accomplished, which 12 was some type of an agreement put into place. And when it's 13 all said and done, Mr. Motley and I agreed that the simplest 14 way was just merely a licensing agreement, and not deal with 15 all that stuff that was -- that was proposed by the 16 Christmas Lighting Corporation in terms of dates and who was 17 going to purchase and who's going to store and who's going 18 to do this and who's going to do that and so forth. And we 19 give them an in date and an out date; in effect, it becomes 20 a license. I believe the Court all has a copy -- members of 21 the Court has a copy of this. It simplifies the process 22 considerably, and also goes on to point out a stipulation 23 that there has to be a County facilities supervisor 24 involved, or his designee, one or the other. And that is 25 the individual that acts as the supervisor over the 9-13-04 148 1 community service workers when they're there. This does -- 2 the license agreement does provide for Kerr County jail 3 trustee workers, but that's never been the case, and that 4 needs to be stricken from the license agreement. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where is that? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's in the big 7 paragraph, starting, "All communication..." About the 8 fourth line down. So, that needs to be stricken. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill, what Kerr County 10 jail trustee workers? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They've never used 12 those. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So that needs to be 14 stricken? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And so that -- and 18 the Sheriff's Department designee or the jail designee, that 19 -- that verbiage needs to come out, 'cause they're just not 20 using those folks, nor plan to. And so it's just a very -- 21 a simplification of the whole process. I submit it to you 22 for what it is. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, this -- all the rest 24 of the backup is just backup, and this one page is all we're 25 talking about? 9-13-04 149 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They'll start this year 3 October 23rd, and they'll end January 16th? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. And I 5 agree with the County Attorney; this is a lot cleaner way to 6 try to address it. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree, and we're -- 8 we're getting here what I had requested in the beginning, is 9 an agreement -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- of some sort. I 12 still don't like the dates, but it's nothing to fight about. 13 But we have -- we have an actual agreement to work with, and 14 that's -- that's really all I was asking for when the storm 15 hit. So -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. I'll make it 18 in the form of a motion. If there's a second, then we can 19 talk about approving it as corrected. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there a second? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. I have a motion 23 and second. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One or two comments. 25 One, I think the -- the dates they outline in their 9-13-04 150 1 letter -- I still would like -- I hope they follow that. I 2 mean, I still don't want to see the big sleigh and these 3 other big things, snowmen and all this, out there in the 4 middle of October. I mean, I hope that there would -- which 5 caused the beginning of the storm last year. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They're out in front of 7 Walmart today; I saw them. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I believe they will. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The idea is, we want to 10 be as discreet as possible as long as possible. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And we can convey 12 that to them; I think they're amenable to that. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And my other question 14 goes -- I'm not sure -- I don't know if it's them or if it's 15 our maintenance department, but whoever is responsible for 16 all these lights hanging in these trees that don't work, 17 they need to come down. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it's all part 19 of their project, so that needs to be readdressed by them. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I don't -- I don't 21 know who -- I mean, the tree that -- I know this one right 22 out here, that -- you could hang somebody if they -- you 23 know, I'm surprised they haven't, you know, done that 24 already by walking under the tree. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We can convey that to 9-13-04 151 1 them. You're absolutely right. And up until the last two 2 years, I believe, they made arrangements with KPUB -- they 3 did make arrangements with KPUB to bring the lifts in and go 4 up and -- you know, and drape the trees. Well, the last 5 couple years they did not do that, and as a result of that, 6 now there's wear and tear, and we've got them hanging all 7 over the place. That needs to be corrected, I agree. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, I think -- 9 you know, as long as those lights get fixed by this season. 10 And I don't -- you know, community service workers, a lot of 11 these people, certainly, I don't -- I hope I don't see them 12 up on ladders, climbing these trees, taking these lights 13 down. But, you know, community service or something, we 14 just need to get that -- at least from a safety standpoint, 15 or appearance of safety. I think they're all disconnected. 16 That has got to be cleaned up. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll convey those 18 sentiments back to them. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think it would be 20 very wise to take all the old trashy ones that are just 21 hanging down out there first; take -- clean all that out 22 first so they'll know what they're working with. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. We have a motion 25 and a second to approve the licensing agreement, with the 9-13-04 152 1 corrections as designated by Commissioner Williams. Any 2 further question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, 3 signify by raising your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Be sure to tell them I 9 seconded the motion. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I will. I absolutely 11 will. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: All right. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll say you were 14 happy to second it. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, thrilled. 16 (Discussion off the record.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Next item, Number 24, 18 consider, discuss, and approve hiring employee health 19 benefit consultant. Your hardworking committee has been 20 hard at work. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. We have, 22 Judge. And the committee -- not real sure how the news got 23 out, but we interviewed four different companies to -- to be 24 our employee health benefit consultant. We interviewed two 25 one day, and two another. The first two, I would say 9-13-04 153 1 that -- that I rejected on the spot because of their lack of 2 involvement in county government. Just -- it wasn't totally 3 void, but it wasn't very much to it. The second two guys 4 was -- were very, very difficult -- it was difficult for me 5 to make a decision on it. One -- one fellow's just done so 6 much work for this county, and has a list of clients -- 7 counties that are -- you know, took up a whole page to read 8 them all. And then the last gentleman that we interviewed 9 with was just so professional, and -- and I think the Judge 10 probably has some further comments about that. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I was particularly impressed 12 by his broad breadth of experience in the insurance industry 13 generally. He's been in the third-party administrator 14 business. He knows how those operate, so he knows what to 15 look for, for example. He's got government experience. 16 He's got school district experience. He's got private 17 sector experience. There were a couple of things that 18 struck me particularly well with this gentleman. One was 19 plan design. He seemed to be open to some pretty innovative 20 plan design, so that we can target the needs of our 21 employees, but doing so in a way that we might be able to 22 eliminate some costs and create some incentives in the -- in 23 the system itself for the employees to -- to want to take an 24 interest in so that it'll function better. The plan design 25 aspect is what really impressed me about this gentleman. 9-13-04 154 1 The other thing was to try and incorporate some wellness 2 programs. And I think anybody -- any larger employer now 3 that is not considering or trying to at least incorporate 4 something in the -- in the wellness area is -- is missing 5 the boat, because I think there's a good deal of savings 6 that can be achieved, as well as not having lost time 7 from -- from illness by your employees. I think the safety 8 program is going to help there. And when Ms. Amy Chapman 9 initiated her wellness program, I think we saw some -- some 10 pretty surprising results, and saw them pretty doggone 11 quick. I was pretty surprised. So, I've become a fan of 12 this wellness thing, and I -- I really like to see that. 13 And all of those factors cause me to -- to conclude that I 14 -- I think the last guy -- his name is Gary Looney. He's 15 from San Antonio. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Gary Looney? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Looney. That's who I 18 strongly, strongly lean towards. Not to say that the other 19 gentleman is -- he's got the proper credentials and has a 20 lot of experience in the field. But, overall, I just was 21 more impressed with Mr. Looney. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are the fees pretty 23 well -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: There was a little bit of 25 difference between them, but what they were giving us were 9-13-04 155 1 estimates, so I'm not really sure there was any estimate -- 2 what we're looking at is about 10 to 12,5, in that range. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What did we budget? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we did -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know we budgeted 6 something; I can't remember how much. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Seems like we put 10 8 in there. Tommy, do you recall? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't recall. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably under 11 Professional Services, so it's really not going to be broken 12 out separately. Okay, that's fine. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's where 14 we put it. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But, along with that, 16 we're going to have to do a contract -- I'm assuming -- 17 there's a sample contract in his book that he provided to 18 the County Judge, not me. And -- and so I would -- you 19 know, what I want to do is make a motion and vote on this 20 thing, and have a contract with him contingent upon the 21 County Attorney -- 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, absolutely. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- approving this 24 particular one, or modifying it in some way. So, I do move 25 that we enter into a contract with Gary Looney of Catto and 9-13-04 156 1 Catto of San Antonio for -- for our employee health benefit 2 consultant. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Gary or Jerry? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is Gary E. -- 5 excuse me, Gary R. Looney. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do you spell Looney? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: L-o-o-n-e-y. I made 8 the motion. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll second it. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 11 the employment of Mr. Looney as the employee health care -- 12 health benefit consultant for Kerr County for the ensuing 13 policy year, I guess we'd say. You had a question, 14 Mr. Tomlinson? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. I was just curious to 16 know if this was a year-round -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: -- consultation services. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, he would be available -- 20 he'd be on an as-called basis. There's -- there's certain 21 things up through the -- the putting in place of the program 22 and making sure that it's in place properly. And after 23 that, it's kind of on an as-called basis, if there's 24 questions about it, if it's working properly or something. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: I just think that -- I just 9-13-04 157 1 think that's necessary. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Oh, yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I -- to use one 6 of Commissioners 1's terms, I'm excited. I think this is 7 the direction we need to be going. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Goosebumps? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Goosebumps. 12 MS. NEMEC: Just -- I have a question; I kind 13 of need some direction from the Court. We have AFLAC and 14 Flex One that is offered to our employees. That's offered 15 through Bryan Finley and Associates and is not any part of 16 E.B.A. However, they kind of work together because of the 17 different tier plans that we have, and if they go to a 18 higher deductible, then they can have that money to buy 19 AFLAC or Flex One products, whatever. I was contacted by 20 Mr. Finley's office. They're ready to come and do the 21 reenrollment sometime in November, and I am just wondering 22 if them coming in and us having a consultant is going to 23 kind -- is going to be able -- are they going to work 24 together? Is this separate and aside from what Mr. Finley 25 is offering? Or should I just have Mr. Finley contact the 9-13-04 158 1 consultant and let them work it out? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me tell you the 3 way I see this thing. Because of the short time frame we 4 have to get going on our insurance, this guy needs to hit 5 the ground running, this week. This very week that we're in 6 right now. And he is going to contact you and Tommy both. 7 I hope you would agree to help him get through this thing -- 8 MS. NEMEC: Sure. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- and get it going. 10 And then -- then I see it as a -- you know, let -- let him 11 handle the thing from that point on. He's going to be 12 different. This is going to be different than anything 13 we've seen around here. 14 MS. NEMEC: Well, we needed to do something 15 like this. I'm really excited about it, myself. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Well, you're 17 not getting too excited or anything where you need some 18 medical attention? 19 MS. NEMEC: Well, I'll let you know in a 20 little bit. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. You're not 22 turning red or anything. 23 MS. NEMEC: Not yet. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's water behind 25 you. Deep breath. 9-13-04 159 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 2 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 3 your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, one other 9 thing. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, sir? 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm assuming that you 12 are going to phone him immediately, or shortly -- quickly as 13 possible to let him know what has happened, so that he can 14 then -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- get these people 17 going? 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There's your damned 20 old book. I don't want it. 21 MS. NEMEC: Now, if he finds that this AFLAC 22 and Flex One and all that is separate from what he's doing, 23 then he can notify the Court at that time and explain, but 24 I'll just put them in contact and let them work it out. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Those guys know the lingo; 9-13-04 160 1 they know how the game's played, and they -- let them run 2 with the ball. 3 MS. NEMEC: Good deal. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Next item, consider and 5 discuss transfer of funds to Juvenile Detention Facility 6 Fund from the General Fund in exchange for accounts 7 receivable from contracting counties. I think we've kind of 8 sort of touched on this one, but -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Which one? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That's Item 25, I'm sorry. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: I think you have a list of -- 12 of receivables in question. Since I printed that -- your 13 copy, I've had two payments, which brings it down to 14 $131,644. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 131 -- 16 MR. TOMLINSON: 131,644. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- 644. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Who paid? Which counties 20 did we -- 21 MR. TOMLINSON: It's Bandera and Guadalupe: 22 Let me -- let me explain the mechanics of what -- what I 23 have in mind. This is the last month of the year. If -- on 24 the balance sheet of the County, if -- you know, if you 25 approve this, I will show those receivables as receivables 9-13-04 161 1 into the County, and not -- and not -- excuse me -- not the 2 facility. I will show a -- we'll show a liability of equal 3 amount on the records of the facility to -- to Kerr County. 4 So, basically, what we're doing is -- is exchanging assets. 5 There's no -- there's no expenditure of -- there's no 6 expense involved. There's just a -- a change -- a change of 7 assets. The issue that I have right now is that we -- we 8 have timing problems with collecting revenues from the 9 contracting counties. The problem is that I -- we can't 10 meet current obligations with accounts receivable; we have 11 to have cash to do that. So, that -- that's the reason for 12 -- for my request. And what I will do, based upon this 13 approval, as payments arrive, I will credit the County with 14 those payments until the balance is zero. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I presume this is, I 16 guess, an appropriate -- or there's no legal problems with 17 doing this? I mean, we can exchange assets with a 18 wholly-owned company? 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Ken Lay does it all 20 the time. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: I mean, it's the -- the 22 financial reporting of -- of this transaction would be in 23 our audited financial statement, so it would be -- you'd see 24 a -- you'd see a receivable on one -- on the County and a 25 liability for the facility. 9-13-04 162 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So this helps the 2 facility solve a cash flow problem. Doesn't cost us 3 anything. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to ask the 6 question a little differently. Local Government Code 7 permits us to purchase -- purchase accounts receivable? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: It permits you to transfer 9 funds. You could transfer funds to -- to that -- to the 10 facilities fund, I think, without the trade. I think you 11 have that option to -- to transfer funds to any other fund 12 that's for County purposes. We -- we, on a regular basis, 13 transfer funds from one to the other. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know we do, but 15 that's within the context of our budget. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. But these -- but 17 these -- both of these funds are -- are for County purposes, 18 and they're -- from a reporting standpoint and from an audit 19 standpoint, they are -- they are all on the same page. I 20 mean, a reader of a financial statement sees both 21 side-by-side, so they're part of a financial statement. So, 22 we're not -- we're not transferring funds from -- from the 23 County to a non-county or a non-public-related entity. So, 24 I mean, it's within -- within the realm of County purposes 25 or public purposes. 9-13-04 163 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy, let me ask you 2 a little bit different way. When you received the money 3 from Bandera and Guadalupe County, where did that money go 4 into? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: We receipted the money on 6 those two into the -- to the fund that accounts for the 7 operations of the Juvenile Detention Facility. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that under the 9 Juvenile Detention Facility budget? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if we do this, that 12 -- say, when Harris County pays us their 86,000, that check 13 will be deposited in the Kerr County General Fund? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, that's correct. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we approve it, from 16 that point on, the moneys go into the County budget? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: From this list, yes. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, we're just 20 talking about the list; we're not talking about any and all 21 accounts receivable from this point forward, undefined. 22 You're talking about this list. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: They're not defined, so we 24 can't -- we can't go there. I mean, because we don't know 25 what those are. But just for this -- for today, it's just 9-13-04 164 1 on this -- the counties on this list. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, the -- and from a 3 -- I guess from an earlier comment, all of these counties 4 have always paid their bills? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. I've never -- never had 6 a -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And they're not 8 delinquent now? It's just a matter of we need the cash 9 sooner than -- 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, some of them are 30 to 11 60 days, but it takes some time for -- especially large 12 counties, for a bill to get from us to the Probation office, 13 from Probation office to the Auditor's office, and then to 14 Commissioners Court to be approved, and then -- and then 15 paid. So, in some situations, they're 60 days. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, and that's very 17 intentional with their size budget. That's them keeping 18 that money a little bit longer. It's a lot of money. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: So -- so, it's -- and also, 20 it's the end of the year also. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: And that has some impact on 23 it also. I mean, some counties are waiting till October 24 1st, probably, to pay it. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tommy? 9-13-04 165 1 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm guessing that some of the 2 small counties are. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did you say Bandera 4 and Guadalupe? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: I received payment today. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And those two 7 numbers, Bandera and Guadalupe, total $5,644, and off of 8 that bottom line would bring it down to 130,407? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, my calculation is 10 131,644. I may have miscalculated. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's got his 12 handy-dandy calculator here. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: I have this -- this on my 14 computer, and I deleted those -- those amounts, and -- 15 unless I have an error in my total. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was just taking the 17 two numbers you gave me and subtracting them from 254. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I noticed that. I 19 thought maybe they were partial payments from those 20 counties. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What do you get, 22 Judge? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I just put back in the 24 Bandera County one. That runs me up above the 134,051, so 25 there's a -- there's a calculation error there somewhere. 9-13-04 166 1 MR. TOMLINSON: I apparently have a problem 2 with my formula, in the total. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I hate to question an 4 Auditor. Makes me feel bad. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, you know, I do make 6 mistakes, that's for sure, so I readily admit that. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- I think 8 Commissioner 4 said does it cost us anything, or some -- one 9 of the Commissioners said that. There is a slight cost from 10 the standpoint this fund -- this cash would then be not 11 drawing what little interest we get, but it's a pretty minor 12 amount, I'm sure. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Less than 1 percent. That's 14 true. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the figure that you've 16 got only reduces it by the amount of Guadalupe County, the 17 2,407, to 131,644. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: So, you need to subtract 20 Bandera's also? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I guess. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, I know I got the 23 payment, so I just made an error. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 2,407. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: Should be, like, 129, maybe. 9-13-04 167 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I got 128. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't remember what 3 Bandera's is. So, I -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This list says 3,237. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, that's not what I was 6 paid. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, there is the 8 problem. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: That's the problem. I 10 remember now. It was -- I received 31 -- 3,194. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We can probably 12 craft a -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not-to-exceed motion. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: -- a motion to cover that. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me try to make a 16 motion that we transfer funds to Juvenile Detention -- 17 Detention Facility Fund from General Fund in exchange for 18 accounts receivable from contracting counties. Such funds 19 totaled $134,051 on August 31, '04, less any payments made 20 subsequent to that. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. I can correct -- I can 22 correct it. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a motion? 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9-13-04 168 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. See? 2 Everybody's quiet down there. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I have a motion and second to 4 transfer from the General Fund into the Detention Facility 5 Account. The balance of those receivables and cash is 6 $134,051, less payments that may have been applied on those 7 receivables since August 31, '04. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question. I think Tommy 9 answered it, but without the fund -- without this change, 10 there's not enough cash to make some current payments that 11 are needed? 12 MR. TOMLINSON: That's right. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can you tell me how -- 15 how much that is? How much money are we going to spend? I 16 mean, how much do we get back? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, the -- the average 18 payroll is $63,000 to $64,000 every -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Monthly? 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Every two weeks -- or every 21 15 days. And I have approximately $40,000 in -- in 22 invoices. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, how much are we 24 talking about? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: So, that's -- 9-13-04 169 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $200,000? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Approximately $100,000. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $100,000. Well -- 4 MR. TOMLINSON: Now, if I have -- 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know if we 6 should be putting approximate numbers. Seems like we need 7 to get a definite number and actually put it in your motion. 8 My opinion. 9 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, you do have -- you do 10 have a definite number in the motion. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Approximately 12 $100,000? 13 MR. TOMLINSON: No, that's -- that wasn't 14 part of the question. The question from him was, was the 15 amount on this list the amount -- the amount of receivables. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Less any payments 17 made subsequent to that. So, it's a finite number; we just 18 don't know what it is. But it can't exceed 134 -- 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Can't exceed the amount that 20 he described. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I see. Okay. So, 22 we can't -- we're not going to exceed -- how much is the 23 receivables? 24 MR. TOMLINSON: No. I mean, we will 25 eventually, but -- 9-13-04 170 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We will eventually, 2 all right. That's question number two. How many times are 3 we going to do this? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't know. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well -- 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What do you mean by 7 we'll exceed that eventually? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, I -- once the exchange 9 is made, once the -- once the cash is -- is with the 10 facility, I will use that cash until the -- until all the 11 obligations are paid. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. But this 13 is -- this is a one-time deal. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We're doing this to 16 help solve a cash flow problem. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And we're not going 19 to be -- unless there's a new deal made, we're not going to 20 be taking on any more obligations. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: That's right. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there any 23 prohibition to you using the $171,000 that they show in 24 their reserve balance? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't follow that. 9-13-04 171 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, on the last 2 printout you did for the budget, you show Juvenile Detention 3 Center with a fund balance of $171,000. 4 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, that was the estimate. 5 We have -- today, we have $55,000 cash. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which would be 7 considered the reserve? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, what you're saying 10 is -- 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Well -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Without this -- I mean, 13 you -- you don't make payroll in two days without some cash 14 coming in, and you probably -- actually, just a couple 15 payments probably get you enough to make payroll. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: That's right. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: I made -- Commissioner, I 19 made the estimate of 176 back when -- when our population 20 was higher than it is, you know, today. I mean, we -- the 21 last month's revenues for detention services was $57,000, 22 $56,000. Three months ago, it was $90,000. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it needs to be turned 24 around quickly. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Very quick. 9-13-04 172 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So we're going to 3 spend approximately $100,000 today, and we will get back 4 131? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Your -- the County will get 6 back exactly what -- 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're spending? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: -- what we're approving 9 today. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But it won't exceed 11 the 131. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're going to give 14 them -- I mean, as I understand it, we're going to -- as 15 soon as we approve this, if we approve it, you're going to 16 do the transfer, and $131,000, plus or minus, is going to go 17 into that Juvenile account. You're going to pay all the 18 bills that need to be paid and keep that remainder of that 19 cash there to use, and then we're going to get paid back as 20 these counties pay us back? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Exactly right. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Then, in the 23 meantime, you will have funds sufficient to meet your 24 payroll and other expenses; is that correct? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For the short term. 9-13-04 173 1 MR. TOMLINSON: For the short term. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: We hope. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess the -- if the 6 hopes are not met, we'll be talking about this again, won't 7 we? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean, the risk to 9 the County is minimal -- actually, it's zero. I mean, we 10 could have the Kerr County Attorney go get the money. 11 But -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On the basis of what 13 he's asking us to do, it is, yeah. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions -- I'm 15 sorry. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you -- do you -- 17 how aggressive are you in collections? I mean, I know this 18 is a different type. I mean, it's not something that we 19 send the police after them or anything. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm on a first-name basis 21 with every one of these people. They hate to hear my voice. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do they? I like that 23 part. Good. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: You know, I -- when they 25 don't pay, I either call the Auditor's office or -- or the 9-13-04 174 1 Judge that put the kid here, and that gets their attention. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good deal. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which is the furthest 4 out of all these accounts receivable? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Harris. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Probably Montgomery County. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any further questions 10 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 11 raising your right hand. 12 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 14 (No response.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Thank 16 you very much. Do we have any items to -- tell you what. 17 Let's -- we still got the Auditor here. Why don't we go do 18 that portion of the agenda and get it knocked out. Pay the 19 bills. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move we pay the 21 bills. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 24 payment of the bills. Any question or discussion? All in 25 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 9-13-04 175 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Budget 5 Amendment Request Number 1. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 1 is for the County 7 Clerk. Her request is to transfer $4,530.70 into Office 8 Supplies in the County Clerk's budget from Election Judges 9 in the Election budget. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm reading this note 11 at the bottom. It says, "I also have outstanding bills that 12 have not yet come in." Do we just wait till next month and 13 do this again, or what? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I think it's intended to 15 include the amount being transferred in anticipation. 16 MS. PIEPER: That's correct. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's part of the 18 current expense? 19 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 'Cause you already 22 show a fund balance adequate enough to cover that. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: She's anticipating the other 24 bills. So, I mean, this is her request. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You're anticipating 9-13-04 176 1 another $13,000 in bills between now and the end of the 2 year? I mean, you have $8,330, and you're requesting 3 another 45. 4 MS. PIEPER: Having this additional $4,530, 5 plus what I -- the $8,330, yes, that will take care of the 6 rest. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 10 approval of Budget Amendment Request Number 1. Any question 11 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 12 raising your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Budget 17 Amendment Request Number 2. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 2 is for the Ag Barn 19 and Maintenance from Mr. Holekamp. His request is to 20 transfer $412.50 from Maintenance Salary in the Ag Barn to 21 Contract Fees in Maintenance. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 25 approval of Budget Amendment Number 2. 9-13-04 177 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Need a hand check? 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Hand check. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And to whom? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: To Olivia Avila. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Olivia Avila? 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Avila. 7 MR. HOLEKAMP: Avila, A-v-i-l-a. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. In that amount, 9 $412.50? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Motion includes a 12 hand check to Olivia Avila in the amount of $412.50. Is 13 that correct? I don't know who made the motion. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Letz. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, that's correct. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. All right. Any further 17 question or discussion? All in favor, signify by raising 18 your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 23 Budget Amendment Request 3. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Three is from Court 25 Collections, Brad Alford, to transfer $509 from Group 9-13-04 178 1 Insurance to Office Supplies. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 5 approval. Any question or discussion? All in favor, 6 signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 11 Budget Amendment Request Number 4. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Four is from Justice of the 13 Peace, Precinct 3, Kari O'Dell, to transfer $138 from 14 Equipment Maintenance to Postage. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 18 approval. Any question or discussion? All in favor of the 19 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Budget 24 Amendment Request 5. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 5 is from the District 9-13-04 179 1 Clerk. Her request is to transfer $500 from Part-Time 2 Salaries to Microfilm Records. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 6 approval. Any question or discussion? All in favor of the 7 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 12 Budget Amendment Request 6. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Six is for County Court at 14 Law, Judge Brown, to transfer $2,263.69, from Master Court 15 Appointments to Court-Appointed Attorneys. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 19 approval. Any question or discussion? All in favor, 20 signify by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. The 23 motion does carry. Budget Amendment Request 7. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 7 is for 25 Nondepartmental. We have current bills in Autopsy and 9-13-04 180 1 Inquest of $4,060. We need to transfer $1,361.21 from 2 Property Insurance line item, and $2,698.79 from Address 3 Coordinator. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Move to approve. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 7 approval. Any question or discussion? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That depletes the 9 Address Coordinator line? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: It does. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I didn't call for a vote, did 13 I? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion, 16 signify by raising your right hand. 17 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 19 (No response.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Budget 21 Amendment Request 8. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 8 is for Road and 23 Bridge Administration. The request is to transfer $65.25 24 from Telephone to Notices. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 9-13-04 181 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 3 approval. Any question or discussion? All in favor, 4 signify by raising your right hand. 5 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 7 (No response.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Budget 9 Amendment Request 9. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 9 is for the 216th and 11 198th District Courts. For the 216th Court, we need to 12 transfer $14,370.68 from Special Trials to Court-Appointed 13 Attorneys. For the 198th Court, we need to transfer 14 $16,987.10; $3,017.50 to Court-Appointed Services, and 15 $13,969.60 to Court-Appointed Attorneys. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 19 approval. Any question or discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just an observation, 21 that it seems to me like items that we budget on 22 contingency, like special trials, often wind up being the 23 source of making up shortfalls. Maybe that's due to 24 government; maybe it's not. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is not. 9-13-04 182 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's not due to 2 government, but -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- it's one of those that 5 we don't have much control over. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 7 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 8 your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 11 (No response.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 13 Amendment Request 10. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Ten is for the County Jail 15 and the Sheriff's Department from the Sheriff, to transfer 16 $3,041.59 from Group Insurance; $1,573.72 to Operating 17 Supplies, $1,442.87 to Utilities, and $25 to Vehicle 18 Maintenance. Also request to transfer $6,064.29 from Group 19 Insurance in the Sheriff's budget, $5,093.39 to Vehicle 20 Repairs and Maintenance, $940.95 to Gas and Oil, and $29.95 21 to Operating Expenses. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hit another deer? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It was my chief's fault. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 9-13-04 183 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: A lot of that is just 2 vehicle maintenance itself coming up lately. 3 MR. BARTON: I did not hit a deer, no. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or -- 5 motion made and seconded for approval. Any further question 6 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 7 raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 12 Amendment Request 11. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Eleven is for maintenance -- 14 Courthouse and Related Buildings from the Maintenance 15 Supervisor to transfer $2,500 from Leasehold Improvements to 16 Repairs and Maintenance. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 20 approval. Any question or discussion? All in favor of the 21 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget 9-13-04 184 1 Amendment Request 12. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 12 is for the County 3 Auditor's office. My request is to transfer $190 from Group 4 Insurance to Conferences. I have a -- a late bill that I 5 need a hand check for to the Texas Association of County 6 Auditors for $190. This conference actually is in October, 7 but I need to get the -- my registration in before the end 8 of -- before October. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Where are y'all going, 10 south Austin? Where is it? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sixth Street. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Move to approve and 14 authorize a hand check. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 17 approval, and authorize hand check to Texas Association of 18 County Auditors in the sum of $190. Any question or 19 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 20 your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Budget 25 Amendment Request 13. 9-13-04 185 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Thirteen is for the 198th 2 District Court. It's a request from Judge Prohl to transfer 3 $565.05 from Special Trials; $75 to Books, Publications, and 4 Dues, $490.05 to Conferences. I do have a late bill 5 attached for a hand check to Judge Prohl for $797.15. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that for his 7 conference? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: For his conference, yes. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 12 approval, and authorize hand check to Judge Prohl for 13 reimbursement of conference expense, $797.15. Any question 14 or discussion? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I wonder if we could 16 fund the Ag Barn repairs out of Special Trials transfer. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question is -- and 18 maybe just -- one of the items or categories that it seems 19 we could control is conferences. I can see where Tommy is 20 paying a year early, but it sure would be nice if everyone 21 would follow the conference line item budget. This is a 22 pretty extraordinary -- I mean -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Seven hundred -- how 24 much? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, no, the overage is 9-13-04 186 1 almost $300. But out of a $2,000 budget, that's missing the 2 mark pretty big. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I want you to go talk 6 to Judge Prohl about that. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You bring it up. I'm 8 behind you 100 percent, man. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Did we vote on that 10 one, Judge? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: No, we haven't. We're having 12 lots of discussion, though. I thought maybe you'd want in 13 on it. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I'm fine. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any further question or 16 discussion? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When we go up there 18 and talk to him, we'll tell him that, "Bill says..." 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All in favor of the motion, 21 signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. 9-13-04 187 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you sure you 2 don't have another one, so we don't have to stop on 13? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: That's it. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That's all we got. That's all 5 we got here. Did we get all your late bills? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: You got a late bill? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: No, I don't. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. I have here before 10 me the transcript of the Kerr County Commissioners Court 11 regular session held on Monday, August 9th, 2004, and the 12 transcript of the Kerr County Commissioners Court special 13 session held on Monday, August 23rd, 2004. Do I hear a 14 motion to approve these transcripts as presented? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved -- second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded. Any 18 question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 19 by raising your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. I 24 have before me monthly reports from Constable Precinct 3, 25 Sheriff, Justice of the Peace Precinct 1, District Clerk, 9-13-04 188 1 County Clerk, Solid Waste, Justice of the Peace Precinct 4, 2 and Road and Bridge. Do I hear a motion to approve these 3 reports as presented and received? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 7 approval. Any question or discussion? All in favor, 8 signify by raising your right hand. 9 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. The 11 motion does carry. Do we have any reports from any of the 12 Commissioners on any of their liaison assignments or 13 otherwise? Any elected officials, department heads desiring 14 to render reports to the Court? Okay. Do we have anything 15 to go into executive session about, gentlemen? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One quickie. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We have one remaining 19 item that I intentionally left till the tail end, so that if 20 there -- there were any cleanup items, we could come back to 21 it. Do you want to go ahead and final out the budget 22 situation, or hold it open? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We can do that, I 24 believe. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let's do it. 9-13-04 189 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me go ahead and 2 call Number 27, consider and discuss approval of the 3 proposed Fiscal Year 2004-2005 budget, and set a public 4 hearing on the same. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What would the 6 suggested date be, Judge? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We've got two different public 8 hearings already. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 27th? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: What's the timing requirement 11 on the budget, Tommy? 12 MS. MITCHELL: It's the same. It's the same 13 as the -- 14 MR. TOMLINSON: I think it's -- 15 MS. MITCHELL: -- elected officials. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: 27th. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: We can do that on the 27th 18 also? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 1:30? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Afternoon? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we have the other 22 one at 10 o'clock. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How about 11:59? 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's good. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: 10:30, 11:00, whichever. I 9-13-04 190 1 don't think we're going to have much -- I may be surprised. 2 If we run over, that's fine. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 10:30. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: However, I have a comment 6 before we get to make a motion on that. Or not a comment, 7 actually; a change. On Page -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Here we go again. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Uh-huh. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- Page 2, Commissioners 11 Court, under Professional Services. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've already overspent 14 the amount under that item, and we know we're going to have 15 engineering and other potential things at the Ag Barn, so I 16 think we probably should put $20,000 there. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Exactly the figure I was 20 thinking of. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're good. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I would move 23 that we approve the proposed Fiscal Year '04-'05 budget and 24 set a public hearing for September 27th at 10:30 a.m. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 9-13-04 191 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 2 approval of the FY '04-'05 budget. I assume you're talking 3 about the budget that -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That we -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- we just made the last 6 correction to just moments ago? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Including the last 8 correction we made just moments ago. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the Auditor will 11 provide us with a new revised budget as soon as -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: He can make that run, sure. 13 Any -- did I get a second on that? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I did, yes. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 16 discussion on the motion? 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The process on this 18 is that we're going to hold a public hearing on the budget 19 and have a final vote on it; then we're going to hold a 20 public hearing on elected officials' compensation and have a 21 final vote on that? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And tax rates. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And tax rates. So, 24 all we're voting for now is to hold a public hearing? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 9-13-04 192 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You can probably 3 tell by my comments that I'm still not satisfied with the 4 budget. I'm looking forward to hearing what the public 5 thinks about it. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And let me ask you a 7 question. If we get down to that public hearing, which is 8 the 27th, a few days before when it goes into effect or 9 should go into effect, and we do change it, is there 10 another -- oh, look at old Tommy go back there. There is no 11 other time frame to run ads in the paper telling everybody 12 what we're doing? 13 MR. TOMLINSON: No, you -- you can -- you can 14 change the proposed budget at adoption by amendment. If you 15 have -- if you want to make a change on that date, you 16 can -- you can vote on an amendment to the proposed budget, 17 and that -- and that becomes the adopted budget. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can you -- can you 19 adopt a budget after October 1? Yes, is the answer. But I 20 don't recommend it. 21 MR. TOMLINSON: I think you can. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we have to set 23 the tax rate by -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- by the 30th of the 9-13-04 193 1 month, but we do not have to adopt the budget by the 30th. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Correct. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And they're certainly 4 related, but they're independent actions. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if you set the 6 tax rate, the only amendments that you could make, 7 realistically, would be those that -- that reduce spending. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. That's 9 right, you could reduce it. You couldn't increase it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Couldn't increase the tax 11 rate, but you could go into reserves. You'd have a larger 12 deficit. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, I suppose. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't think that's 16 what Number 4 exactly was thinking. But you have plenty of 17 time to tinker. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we can tinker with 19 it. Before we vote on the final budget, there's still one 20 more opportunity to tinker with it. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm still not 22 excited by it, Commissioner. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I understand. 24 Neither am I. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 9-13-04 194 1 discussion on the motion? All in favor of the motion, 2 signify by raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That doesn't require 8 a record vote, does it? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think so. I think the 10 only one that requires a record vote is tax. Okay, now we 11 come down to the -- the executive session. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kathy? I'm sorry, 13 Judge, go ahead. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: And it's indicated that we 15 have an item or two to look at. 16 (The open session was closed at 4:48 p.m., and an Executive Session was held, the 17 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 JUDGE TINLEY: It is now seven minutes after 20 5:00, and we will reconvene in open session. Is any action 21 proposed to be taken with respect to any matter discussed in 22 executive or closed session? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nay. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Hearing nothing, I will 9-13-04 195 1 declare the meeting adjourned, and also declare adjourned 2 the workshop that we left in an open status. 3 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 5:07 p.m.) 4 - - - - - - - - - - 5 6 7 STATE OF TEXAS | 8 COUNTY OF KERR | 9 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 10 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 11 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 12 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 13 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 17th day of September, 14 2004. 15 16 17 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 18 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 19 Certified Shorthand Reporter 20 21 22 23 24 25 9-13-04