1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Monday, November 8, 2004 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X November 8, 2004 2 PAGE --- Commissioners' Comments 5 3 1.1 Consider approval to pay Election Workers before 4 next scheduled Commissioners Court meeting 9 5 1.2 Set public hearing for cancellation of Spring Hollow Estates, Volume 4, Page 174 11 6 1.14 Consider approval to display framed US Flag in 7 public area on 2nd floor of courthouse 12 8 1.3 Request Court's approval to declare the week of Nov. 8-12, 2004 Employer Support of the Guard and 9 Reserve Week, Proclamation to that effect 27 10 1.4 Open sealed Health Insurance proposals and refer such to Catto & Catto for recommendation 46 11 1.5 Public Hearing for Revision of Plat: Kerr Vista 12 Ranch, Section Four, Lots 29-35 53 13 1.6 Open bids for engineered metal roof replacement and HVAC replacement for Hill Country Youth Exhibit 14 Center 54 15 1.8 Public Hearing for revision of plats for The Reserve of Falling Water: Lots 21 & 22 into Lot 16 21A; and Lots 6, 7E, and 7W into Lot 6R 57 17 1.9 Consider revision of plats for The Reserve of Falling Water as discussed in public hearing 58 18 1.10 Presentation by Beverly Lutz, Alamo Rural 19 Transportation Director, and Randy Plummer, Kerrville Station Manager 59 20 1.11 Public Hearing for name change, regulatory signs, 21 resetting school zone at Nimitz Elementary; and abandoning, vacating & discontinuing roads in Kerr 22 County 68 23 1.12 Consider approval of name change, regulatory signs, resetting school zone at Nimitz Elementary; and 24 abandoning, vacating & discontinuing roads in Kerr County as discussed in public hearing 69 25 3 1 I N D E X November 8, 2004 2 PAGE 3 1.13 Consider making agreements with City of Kerrville and/or Kimble County/Junction EMS to authorize 4 Kimble/Junction EMS to provide emergency medical services to a portion of northwest Kerr County 71 5 1.15 Consider status of acquisition of Juvenile 6 Detention Facility 91 7 1.16 Consider financial status and projections at the Juvenile Detention Facility and consider any 8 budget amendments 93 9 1.17 Consider possible litigation against 9-1-1 that may impact Kerr County (Executive Session) 144 10 1.7 Consider bids received and selection processes, 11 awarding/rejecting of roof and HVAC replacement bids 144 12 ------------------------------------------- 13 4.1 Pay Bills 15, 33 14 4.4 Read and Approve Minutes 21 4.5 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 21 15 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee 16 Assignments 22 17 4.2 Budget Amendments 35 4.3 Late Bills -- 18 --- Adjourned 145 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 On Monday, November 8, 2004, at 9:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call to order the 7 regular meeting of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County 8 scheduled for this time and date, Monday, November the 8th, 9 2004, at 9 a.m. It is that time now. Commissioner 10 Williams, I believe you have the honors this morning. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. Will you 12 please rise and join me for a word of prayer, followed by 13 the pledge of allegiance to the flag. 14 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. At this time, if 16 there's any member of the public that wishes to address the 17 Court on a matter that is not on the agenda, we would ask 18 that you come forward and do so at this time. If you want 19 to be heard on a matter that's a listed agenda item, we'd 20 ask that you fill out a participation form. There are forms 21 at the back of the room. It's not absolutely essential, but 22 that's what I prefer so that I won't miss you. However, if 23 you want to speak to the Court on any matter that's not a 24 listed agenda item, feel forward to step forward at this 25 time -- feel free to step forward at this time; we'll be 11-8-04 5 1 glad to hear from you. Seeing no one to step forward, we'll 2 move on. Commissioner Williams, what do you have for us 3 this morning? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not often do you have 5 an opportunity during an election week, particularly on an 6 Election Day, to participate in an event that really brings 7 a smile to your face and gladness to your heart. I had that 8 opportunity on Tuesday, as I was asked by the Middle School, 9 Notre Dame, to monitor and help them conduct a mock election 10 for the president of the United States, and that was a 11 really fun experience. We had all the middle school kids; a 12 credit to the teacher who had really organized it. 13 Beginning with developing their voter registration cards in 14 the mess hall or in the dining room, they all waved their 15 voter registration cards that they had, and it was set up so 16 that all the kids came through by class. Their names were 17 checked off as they came through the line, and they got to 18 sign adjacent to their name, just like you would if you were 19 voting here in the courthouse or wherever you vote. And 20 then I had the opportunity to give them their ballot and 21 their instructions on how to cast their ballot and where to 22 put it in the box. It was really, really a neat experience, 23 and at the end of the day, the teacher -- Carrie Clack, I 24 believe is her name -- gave me a little book that they had 25 prepared, "Why it is Important to Vote," by the Notre Dame 11-8-04 6 1 Middle School in the 2004 election. I won't bore you with 2 all of them, but there are a couple of them are really kind 3 of interesting, all written the their hand, why you should 4 vote. 5 You should vote because you are the future, 6 and your voting means you make the decision on who's going 7 to lead you into the future. People think they can't make a 8 difference, but every vote counts. Another young person 9 wrote, It is important to vote, because people are free to 10 make choices and people are free to elect their leader. If 11 people wouldn't vote, the country would have a dictator, and 12 there wouldn't be any good changes because the dictator 13 could be president for a long time. (Laughter.) Voting 14 helps many countries. Like, if the people in Iraq voted for 15 Saddam Hussein or others, maybe Iraq wouldn't have had 16 Hussein as their president, and would be -- someone else in 17 Iraq could be better. Maybe if people wouldn't vote, the 18 world would be full of wars and misery, and on and on. But 19 bottom line is, it's great to see our young people 20 participate and have an understanding of what about our 21 freedom to make a choice and our elections is all about. 22 Thank you, Judge. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Commissioner 24 Letz? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No comments this morning. 11-8-04 7 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I attended the West 2 Kerr County Chamber of Commerce annual Hunter's Festival 3 Saturday, and want to report that that is really growing by 4 leaps and bounds. It was very well-attended. It was hard 5 to find a parking place, and even had to have law 6 enforcement out there to direct traffic. And Hunt Volunteer 7 Fire Department barbecue chef, 88-year-old Owen Crenshaw, 8 did a terrific job in barbecuing briskets. Other than that, 9 everybody in west Kerr County is happy, healthy, and 10 wealthy. That's all. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Commissioner 12 Baldwin? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Just want to remind 14 everyone of a meeting coming up that I think is maybe as 15 important as anything that's going on around the -- around 16 our part of the state. It's the Hill Country Alliance of 17 Groundwater Conservation Districts having a meeting talking 18 about the relationship between brush control and aquifer 19 recharge. Super-important. I don't know; y'all may have 20 these meetings once a week, and you have a meeting, walk out 21 the door, and everything's forgotten. But that is one of 22 those issues that I think needs to be talked about, and it's 23 on Tuesday, November 16th, at the old courthouse in Boerne, 24 and I think I'm going to run down there to that. That's one 25 of those issues that we need to keep on the front burner. 11-8-04 8 1 Tivy football this Friday night, first-round playoffs in 2 Burnet, Texas, against the Burnet Bulldogs. So, that's all. 3 That's all I got to say about that. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Commissioner. I'd 5 like to remind everyone that this coming Thursday, November 6 the 11th, is Veterans Day, and I would urge everyone to pay 7 their respects to the veterans of this country and 8 participate in activities or services that -- that do just 9 that. We owe a great deal to our veterans. The very 10 existence of our country, I think, is based upon our 11 veterans, and so I think it's most appropriate that we pay 12 our respects and honor those veterans. Thank you. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, if I may 14 piggy-back on Commissioner Baldwin's comments a little bit? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And also invite everyone 17 to a Region J meeting. We talk about brush control on a 18 very regular basis, and how it affects water. The meeting 19 is in Leakey this Wednesday at 10 o'clock in the morning. 20 It will probably last about four or five hours. So, anybody 21 that wants to come, there'll also be some -- I believe some 22 review of some spring studies that we've done in Kerr 23 County, and other water-related issues. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There is another 25 footnote to that, as well. I attended the regional Soil and 11-8-04 9 1 Water Conservation District meeting which was held at the 2 Extension Office this past week, and they -- they talked 3 about cedar control, cedar eradication, and the funding that 4 comes down from U.S.D.A. And what we may not have been 5 familiar with is that Kerr County had been prioritized into, 6 I don't know, half a dozen different regions, the river and 7 creek regions, and they've moved through with grant moneys 8 clearing what they could with the moneys available, both on 9 the North and South Fork, and now the next priority region 10 is Johnson Creek. And I don't know how much grant moneys 11 will be available, but somewhere between $70,000 and 12 $100,000, which doesn't go too far, but nonetheless, it's an 13 effort. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Let's move into 15 our agenda, if we might. First item on the agenda is 16 consider and discuss approval to pay election workers before 17 the November 22nd, 2004 scheduled Commissioners Court 18 meeting. The County Clerk asked that this be placed -- 19 MS. PIEPER: You mind if I stand here, Judge? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: It's going to be pretty short, 21 won't it? 22 MS. PIEPER: It will be. I just put this on 23 the agenda to get the election workers paid early, rather 24 than having to wait till the 22nd meeting. I've got several 25 of them that are going out of town and can use their pay. 11-8-04 10 1 They worked extremely hard for it. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I can attest to the fact that 3 they worked hard, especially during early voting. We had an 4 absolutely phenomenal -- 5 MS. PIEPER: And this is what it is; it's for 6 the early voting workers too. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I move to approve to 8 pay the election workers before the November 22nd, 2004, 9 scheduled Commissioners Court meeting. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 12 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 13 discussion? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question. 15 How much money are we -- how much? 16 MS. PIEPER: I submitted all the timesheets 17 to the Auditor's office. The total bill for the election 18 workers is $17,300. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that what we're 20 approving today? 17,000 -- 21 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that in your 23 budget? 24 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's in your 11-8-04 11 1 budget? 2 MS. PIEPER: I do have that part in my 3 budget. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $17,300. 5 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 8 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 9 your right hand. 10 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 12 (No response.) 13 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Next 14 item on the agenda is to consider setting a public hearing 15 for cancellation of Spring Hollow Estates, Volume -- plat in 16 Volume 4, Page 174. Mr. Odom? 17 MR. ODOM: Thank you, Judge. Recently, we've 18 had a letter to Mr. Baldwin to cancel a subdivision off 19 Sheppard Rees Road, and I believe the -- if you will refer 20 back to that plat, also, that this was Dulane and Mary 21 Mangum, the owners of the subdivision, Spring Hollow 22 Estates, and they're wishing -- it's about 31.28 acres and 23 about 88 lots. I believe that it's in the best interests 24 that they wish to vacate and abandon this subdivision up 25 there, and I recommend that the Court do that. 11-8-04 12 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Talking about 88 lots 2 that will be taken off the books, and we should jump all 3 over -- 4 MR. ODOM: All over. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- all over doing 6 that. It's the guy's desire. So, I mean, we're doing -- 7 when is -- when are we having a public hearing? 8 MR. ODOM: This -- we would like to set it up 9 for December the 13th at 10:30. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: December 13th? 11 MR. ODOM: 2004, at 10:30. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 15 setting a public hearing on the agenda item. Any further 16 question or discussion? All in favor, signify by raising 17 your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. The 22 -- looks like we've got a number of timed items on the 23 agenda that we may have ourselves in a box over. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 14. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. Let's go to Item 14, 11-8-04 13 1 if we might, consider and discuss approval to display a 2 framed U.S. flag in public area of the second floor of the 3 courthouse. This item was brought to me by our District 4 Court Coordinator upstairs. The flag was -- apparently came 5 into the possession of the District Court Coordinator's 6 parents from a Boy Scout troop. It's been professionally 7 framed. It's seen a lot of wear, as has our country in its 8 history. But they have found a place, I think, tentatively 9 in Courtroom Number 1. As you go into Courtroom Number 1, 10 either on the left or the right of those double doors is a 11 place where they've tentatively decided they want to display 12 that. It will not be out in the main lobby area where -- 13 where the judges' portraits are there. But that's -- that's 14 our proposal at this time. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 18 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 19 discussion? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I do have a comment. I 21 am not up on all of the exact, I guess, formalities of how 22 you display the American flag, but I think before we do it, 23 we need to make sure that we're following all the 24 appropriate rules, and if there's any requirements that go 25 with that -- 11-8-04 14 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- that we're doing it 3 appropriately. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Will this also 5 contain some sort of a plaque on the frame that indicates 6 who the donor was and so forth? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I have suggested to 8 Ms. Henderson that -- that she do a very tasteful plaque to 9 indicate the history of this flag, its origin and so forth, 10 originally from the Boy Scout troop. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: And I will be sure to 13 ascertain that it's hung with -- that it's placed with the 14 proper decorum. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The other thing -- and 16 this just goes with -- as a general comment to our court 17 coordinator. We probably ought to really set up a file, 18 either in our office or maybe the Clerk's -- I don't know 19 where -- to keep track of these things, exactly where they 20 come from and all that. So that if there's -- something 21 comes down the road, that it's no longer, you know, 22 appropriate to have it in that location due to remodeling or 23 whatever, that we have a way to get rid of it that's proper. 24 When I say "get rid of it," I mean return it back to the 25 people there. We just tend to get a lot of donations, and 11-8-04 15 1 it would be a good file to keep on a permanent basis as to 2 where these things come from, and so we can track it back 3 when we get any type of donation for the courthouse. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Excellent thought. Any 5 further questions or comments concerning the item? All in 6 favor of the motion, please signify by raising your right 7 hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Recess time. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Getting close, isn't it? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bills and all the other 15 stuff. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we can move on to 17 Section IV of the agenda, payment of the bills. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably need to stir up the 20 Auditor. I think that's exactly what she's gone to do at 21 this point. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we're probably 23 -- my question can be answered by the Kerr County Sheriff. 24 On Page 5, County Jail is at the bottom. The second and 25 third -- it has to do with employee medical and employee 11-8-04 16 1 medical, and it's a total of about $900, but it's billed to 2 East Texas Value Care. Are you sending new employees to 3 east Texas somewhere to get a -- get their medical done? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See? You stood there 6 and just made me ask that question. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Our new employees have a 8 physical done over here by the doctors at Ultrafit, and a 9 drug screen. Now, it may -- the drug screen may be being 10 sent off to that East Texas Value Care to get read, but 11 that's the only thing I could think of. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It's about $900 for 13 two. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Mm-hmm. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe we should wait 16 for the Auditor to get here. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Physical and drug 18 screen, that's what it's going to be, on new employees. 19 That is expensive. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: $900 for drug 21 screening? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Physical and drug 23 screen. It very well could be that. I haven't seen that 24 exact figure. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got the bills. 11-8-04 17 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Good. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can't that be done 3 here? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Actually, it's cheaper 5 than anywhere else when we get it. It's not a normal 6 physical. They go through a stress test and everything 7 else, and the drug screen is for everything. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Stand by. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Stand by. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 168499, no such 11 critter. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The Auditor's out for a 13 few minutes. It will be a few minutes. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's all the 15 questions I had on the bills, Judge, so we -- can we come 16 back to that? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody else have any other 18 questions that someone other than the Auditor might be in a 19 position to answer? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I had a -- a question, 21 and I don't know -- I just noticed on Nondepartmental on the 22 first page, the forensic service autopsy charge is 1,800, 23 and that's up to 2,000 on some of them. Was there an 24 increase by Travis County? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: There was. They gave us 11-8-04 18 1 notice that effective -- I believe, actually, it came in 2 last year, if I'm not mistaken. Actually, I think the 3 effective date, however, was October 1. I believe that was 4 the effective date of it. I may be mistaken on that, but 5 they gave us notice for these increases in the postmortem 6 exams. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's a good time 8 to probably invite the medical examiner from Travis County 9 over to give a seminar to our J.P.'s about autopsy 10 requirements. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: You are reading my mind, 12 Commissioner. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have a new J.P. on 14 board, and I think the Travis -- I think the medical 15 examiner has offered on several occasions to come put on a 16 free workshop for the J.P.'s as to autopsy requirements. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Grimes has offered to 18 coordinate that for us on numerous occasions in the past, 19 and I think we need to just take him up on that deal and get 20 that done. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think it 21 would put everyone on a little firmer ground, and maybe save 22 the County some money. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's novel. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody else have any other 25 questions/comments about any of the bills that someone other 11-8-04 19 1 than the Auditor may be able to answer? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a comment, but it 3 needs to wait for the Auditor, I believe. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got questions 6 on Page 7 that may be more appropriate to a later 7 discussion. It has to do with the cost of preadjudicated 8 detentions and postadjudicated placement, for some $22,000. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just wondering what 11 the scope of that is. I'm -- what period of time that 12 covers. Maybe that's more appropriate to a later 13 discussion. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That was Letz' 16 question, I think. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I thought about it, 18 but I decided, you know, might as well -- and Ms. Harris may 19 be able to answer. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I think she probably can at 21 this point. 22 MS. HARRIS: It's $83 a day. As far as the 23 length of time for a preadjudicated kid, that could -- that 24 varies. It could be two days, it could be ten days, it 25 could be three months, depending. 11-8-04 20 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: About -- I guess the 2 question that I would have would be, I mean, as I calculate 3 it out, that equates -- 18,000 equates to about 200 days 4 of -- 5 MS. HARRIS: Of total time? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I'm just wondering 7 how many do we have, on average, preadjudicated kids out 8 there? 9 MS. HARRIS: On average, probably about six 10 Kerr County kids. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So that would be about a 12 month's worth, okay. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we did not have 14 the Kerr County juvenile facility, this is some $22,000 or 15 $23,000 that we would be sending to another facility. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably more, because 17 we'd have to transport them too. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, we'd be spending 19 probably at least that amount, plus we'd have the incidental 20 costs to -- to get them there, to take care of the medical 21 costs and return them and so forth for various hearings. 22 Something else that maybe hasn't been figured into the 23 equation is that each of these children has his or her own 24 lawyer, and these lawyers must have access to their client. 25 And if these children are some 150, 200 miles distant, or 11-8-04 21 1 50 miles distant, these lawyers are going to be incurring 2 time and expenses to see their clients at these distant 3 facilities. So, I'm not sure that's been -- that's been 4 interpolated into the equation on some of these costs that 5 we've been figuring. Okay. We don't have any minutes or 6 monthly reports that I see. Do we have any -- have any 7 transcripts -- uh-huh, okay. I have the monthly reports 8 that have been furnished to me by the clerk for the 9 following departments: Sheriff's Department; County Clerk's 10 trust; County Clerk's general; Justice of the Peace, 11 Precinct 2; Environmental Health; Justice of the Peace, 12 Precinct 4; and District Clerk. Do I hear a motion that 13 these reports be approved as submitted? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 17 approval of the delineated reports as submitted. Any 18 question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 19 by raising your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I've also been furnished a 24 transcript of the Kerr County Commissioners Court special 25 session for Monday, October 25th of this year. Do I hear a 11-8-04 22 1 motion that such transcript be approved as submitted? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 5 approval of the transcript as submitted. Any question or 6 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 7 your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Do we 12 have any reports from the Commissioners with respect to 13 their liaison or committee assignments relative to various 14 functions of the Court? Commissioner Baldwin? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What? I'm not a 16 multi-task type guy. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What -- what's your 19 question? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have any report to be 21 rendered with respect to any of your liaison assignments for 22 the functions of the Court? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir, but thank you 24 for asking. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. Commissioner 11-8-04 23 1 Williams? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, sir. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll just make -- give a 5 report on airport matters. I think the Airport Board, in 6 its new makeup, has been meeting now for several months, and 7 I'm just real happy to say it's performing. It's -- 8 everyone is very much involved on the board, and we're still 9 in a little bit of a transition, I think, phase going 10 through right now as to exactly board responsibilities and 11 working with the Airport Manager and City Manager and City 12 staff and that whole bit, but I think it's really 13 progressing better than I really had envisioned. And we're 14 trying to schedule a workshop, which will be probably half 15 day or so workshop out at the airport, and going over things 16 that kind of -- really, get a -- relook at the master plan 17 and economic development. I mean, the Board's really 18 tackling a lot of issues out there which I think are very, 19 very positive. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would concur. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further from your 22 standpoint, Commissioner Letz? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's -- the 24 other comment is, I don't know that -- I think it's actually 25 Commissioner Nicholson that's liaison to Solid Waste and 11-8-04 24 1 O.S.S.F., but he and I are involved with that, and I just 2 was thinking that about a year has passed, probably this 3 month; this is exactly a year since we took over the 4 O.S.S.F. program, and I'm real proud of the job that that 5 department's done. I think that we -- when we took it on, 6 there was a lot of skepticism in the community that we were 7 -- that we could properly run this program, and I think 8 Miguel and his staff has done a great job, and I think that 9 it is probably the best run that whole program has been in 10 many, many years. So, I'm -- you know, like to give kudos 11 to everyone down in the -- that department. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I sure agree with 13 that, and just an observation. I think, in retrospect, it 14 was a good move for another reason. It freed the U.G.R.A. 15 up from that nuisance, that burden, and I sure like the 16 direction I see the U.G.R.A. going these days. They seem to 17 be focused on the -- on the issues of keeping -- taking care 18 of the river. And I noticed that they have made some sort 19 of pact with the Guadalupe-Blanco River Authority, and I 20 think two or three years ago, that couldn't have occurred. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That was with the 22 River Trust, not the Authority. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: River Trust, yeah. 24 So, I agree with what the Commissioner said, that it's 25 working well, and we receive very few complaints from 11-8-04 25 1 citizens about the way we do it. Doesn't mean they always 2 like the rules, but they're -- the way they're handled is -- 3 the folks down there are doing a very good job. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What we haven't heard 5 lately, however, with respect to the solid waste part of the 6 equation was where Miguel might be in finding somebody else 7 to fill out the workweek for solid waste. I know we put 8 that in the budget to expand that by a couple days a week, 9 and I'm wondering if he has any candidates for that or not. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I haven't heard from 11 him on that issue. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've almost killed 13 enough time to start working on the agenda. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I could talk about 15 Animal Control for a couple minutes. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I could ask you 17 a question which I've asked you in private. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got the answer. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With regard to Animal 20 Control, I'm getting calls from people saying, "What is this 21 $10 fee and tax you're laying on me to register my dog? I 22 don't want to pay it, and what are you going to do to me if 23 I don't pay it?" So, I'll pass these questions on to you, 24 Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, it -- thank 11-8-04 26 1 you. (Laughter.) I was hoping you were going to ask the 2 question you asked me the other day about whether or not 3 there was owner identification on the rabies tag, and yes, 4 there is. But my telephone number and my vet's name is on 5 that rabies tag. The fees we charge for registering animals 6 are a partial effort to cover the costs of providing that 7 service; that it doesn't cover the cost, but registration is 8 way up, and the fees are generating more revenue than they 9 ever have in the past. The population of unwanted dogs and 10 cats is also up, so -- so we're at least breaking even by 11 collecting those fees, if not making some headway. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The second part of 13 the question is, if I don't pay that fee to register my dog, 14 are you going to send the Sheriff out to get me or do harm 15 to my dog? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We don't have the 17 resources to do that. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If you do pay the 20 fees and we know who you are, and we pick your animal up, 21 then the animal will get a free ride home if we can do that, 22 and if not, we'll be calling you and saying, "Your animal's 23 down here, and for a small additional fee, you can come get 24 it." 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have to confess, I 11-8-04 27 1 did use those arguments, but a couple of them weren't too 2 pleased with the answers. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's move on to Item 3 4 on the agenda, request for the Court's approval to declare 5 the week of 8 through 12 November, 2004, Employer Support of 6 Guard and Reserve Week, and proclamation to that effect. 7 General Schellhase. 8 MR. SCHELLHASE: Thank you, Judge and 9 Commissioners. I come before you today as a representative 10 of the Employer Support for the Guard and Reserve for Area 11 4. I'm the liaison officer for this part of Texas. I also 12 wear another hat as ambassador for the United States Army 13 Reserve for South Texas. I'd like to tell you that as of 14 today, we have 197,594 Guard and Reserve on active duty. 15 We're serving in 34 different countries, so Iraq is not our 16 only place of interest at this time. The retention in the 17 military at this time and the Guard and Reserve is 18 97 percent. Regardless of what you read or what you hear, 19 the retention is the highest it's been in many, many years. 20 The recruiting is 4 percent over the required goals that 21 were set, except for the National Guard, because the goal 22 was raised midyear, so they're at this time behind of about 23 8,000 new recruits. 24 So, regardless of what's said and done, the 25 morale is high in the military, and the Guard and the 11-8-04 28 1 Reserve deserve the support of all of us, especially the 2 employers that are paying the big price. Today in Kerr 3 County, we have numerous employers that are matching the pay 4 for the Reserve and Guards that have been called up for 5 active duty so they don't take a pay cut. We have numerous 6 Reserve and Guard that are on duty that are taking huge pay 7 cuts because of having to close their business down, 8 especially the professionals. In the case of one that I'd 9 like to point out, Major Lafon, Sandra Lafon, medical doctor 10 From Kerrville that felt the need to support our country and 11 joined -- or volunteered for active duty as a member of the 12 Reserve. Today she's in Mosul, Iraq, serving in the 67th 13 Combat Area Support Hospital. Her day goes something like 14 this. Yesterday morning, she had 23 casualties in her 15 hospital when she reported for duty. This morning when she 16 reported in at 8:00, she had three, one with a head wound, 17 one with a chest wound, and one with a foot missing, all 18 Americans. The 23 yesterday morning were all Iraqis. 19 So, we do have people that are directly 20 related to us in Kerr County serving and paying the price 21 for what they do to support this country. Professionals 22 especially pay a big price. Having to close their office, 23 lay off employees, and report to duty is a big burden on 24 many of them. We also have a young man in Kerrville that 25 was a painter. His National Guard unit was called to active 11-8-04 29 1 duty out of San Antonio. He has lost his home, he has lost 2 his automobile, and is now serving in Iraq. The reason for 3 his losses are ones that we get involved in with the area of 4 support for the Guard and Reserve, is that the difficulty in 5 changing the pay from National Guard/Reserve pay to active 6 duty pay, he pays a price, because it took about four months 7 for that transition to take place. We're actively at this 8 time trying to get some of those decisions made by banks and 9 mortgage companies to reverse those decisions, but it's not 10 always easy. 11 The accomplishments that are taking place 12 today in Iraq are unbelievable; you don't read about them in 13 the press because they're not good news. There's over 13 14 new sewer plants that have been put online. We have over 15 27,000 people working in just the sewer and water part of 16 Iraq at this time. There are 380,000 policemen that have 17 been trained and are now on the job. There are three 18 regular army combat divisions that have been put together. 19 There are four new police stations that have been built in 20 Iraq alone, although they're blowing them up as fast as we 21 build them. The new thing on the line right now is 62 22 border guard posts have been established, because as of 23 about three hours ago, the borders to Iraq have been closed 24 totally to all foreign countries until further notice. 25 There are 37,000 generating plants that have been brought 11-8-04 30 1 online. There is more electrical generating being produced 2 for the country of Iraq today than ever before, and you 3 don't read about those things. 4 There are seven and a half million people 5 that have been put into schools and educational systems. 6 All the books have been reprinted for the educational system 7 by the military, that are taking out the "hate America" part 8 of the education. There are 14,000 individuals that are 9 working in the administration in Iraq that have never had 10 the opportunity before, and including about 32 percent 11 women, which you've never heard before. So, there's a lot 12 of good things happening in Iraq that we don't hear about. 13 So, those Reserve and Guard that are from this country are 14 doing a great part, and will continue to do so. So I come 15 before you today to ask you to recognize, as the nation has 16 done this week, the 8th of November of 2004, as the week to 17 proclaim support for the Guard and Reserves. 18 I'd like to give you each a coin that 19 represents the support for the Guard and Reserve. In 20 addition to that, I'm going to give you an opportunity that 21 not many people have the opportunity to do, but the Support 22 for the Guard and Reserve would like to give you the 23 opportunity to participate in a one-day Boss Lift, as it's 24 called by the organization, to give you the opportunity to 25 travel to San Antonio, board a C-5 operated by the Air 11-8-04 31 1 Guard -- the army -- the Air Reserve, the 433rd Airlift 2 Wing, which will fly you to Houston, Texas, give you an 3 opportunity to see the training that is going on by these 4 great Reservists, and then fly you back to San Antonio. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Count me in. I'm in. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I will too. 7 MR. SCHELLHASE: It's a great opportunity. 8 It's December the 3rd, and not many people have the 9 opportunity to do this, and we're extending that to the 10 Commissioners Court at this time. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd like to do that 12 also. 13 MR. SCHELLHASE: With that, I'd like to 14 request that the Court approve the proclamation to approve 15 this week. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I'd like to 17 offer that resolution for approval, but I think it's 18 important to read it into the record, and not just do it 19 perfunctorily. With the Court's approval, I'll do that. 20 "Whereas, virtually four of every ten members 21 of our nation's military forces today are members of the 22 National Guard or Reserve; and whereas, more than 176,000 of 23 our Reserve Component troops are currently on active duty, 24 alongside active duty forces, serving as equal partners in 25 our integrated armed forces in the global fight against 11-8-04 32 1 terrorism; and whereas, like the Minutemen before them, they 2 have left their homes and jobs and donned unforms to defend 3 and advance the causes of democracy, peace, and freedom 4 across our nation and around the world; and whereas, the 5 Governor of the State of Texas has paid tribute to those 6 serving our nation in the National Guard and Reserve, and 7 just and as importantly, to the civilian employers whose 8 continued support enables our Reserve Component soldiers, 9 sailors, airmen, marines, and coast guardsmen to defend our 10 country with honor and distinction; and whereas, honor and 11 recognition are due those employers for their unselfish 12 commitment as they, too, become inextricably linked to our 13 nation's security by sharing their most precious assets, 14 their employees, in a total force concept in defense of our 15 precious rights of democracy; therefore, be it resolved that 16 Kerr County Commissioners Court does hereby designate the 17 week of November 8 through 13, 2004, to be Employer Support 18 of the Guard and Reserve Week, and do hereby encourage all 19 our citizens to join in wholehearted support of our National 20 Guard and Reserve personnel and their civilian employers, 21 both of whom give so much for the freedoms we all enjoy." I 22 move the resolution. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 25 adoption of the resolution. Any question or comments? All 11-8-04 33 1 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 2 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, General. 6 MR. SCHELLHASE: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you for all your 8 service. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you for this 10 coin, General. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: A bit closer to home on this 12 same subject, the Texas Army National Guard here a few years 13 ago was tasked as the first Reserve Component force to take 14 command of the multinational force that was in Yugoslavia 15 after that conflict, and here just last week, they were 16 again tasked to participate, and have allocated troops from 17 our own Texas Army Guard forces to participate in that 18 effort. So, the -- the Army Guard and the Guard forces in 19 Texas are the largest in the country, and we're doing our 20 part and more, and we're damn proud of it. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Amen. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We've got the Auditor 23 here, don't we? Mr. Auditor, we've got some questions. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Some questions. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I had two questions, 11-8-04 34 1 but we have them answered. It was bills -- examinations for 2 the Sheriff's employees, and something to do with east 3 Texas, and on our bills it says "East Texas-something 4 something," but it's nowhere on this stuff. The physicians 5 are local. And -- 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There was actually four. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, there's four 8 employees that got some kind of examinations. I don't know 9 why it says "East Texas," but they're local people. So, 10 that answers my question, sort of. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any other questions? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question I have, is 13 there any way that we could add the Juvenile Detention 14 Facility to our bills, so that we can look at those as 15 we're, I guess, responsible for paying them? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: Sure. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For the next -- you know, 18 just add it right in -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Separate them by 20 category. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, just like -- like, 22 just have a, you know, new section for Juvenile Detention 23 Facility; list them all, so we can sort of become familiar 24 with those as well. That was all I had. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? 11-8-04 35 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move we pay the 2 bills. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 5 payment of the bills. Any question or discussion? All in 6 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 11 Budget amendments. Budget Amendment Request Number 1. 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 1 is for the Law 13 Library. I have bills totaling $1,919.86. These bills 14 actually were -- these were for books that were actually 15 ordered in the prior year budget, so I -- I'm requesting 16 that we increase the budget for Law Library by that amount. 17 So, we're actually amending -- increasing the budget for 18 that. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That comes from 20 designated Law Library funds? 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 25 approval of Budget Amendment Request Number 1. Any question 11-8-04 36 1 or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by 2 raising your right hand. 3 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 5 (No response.) 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 7 Budget Amendment Request Number 2. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Number 2 is -- is a 9 combination of -- for the Sheriff's Department, Jail, and 10 Constable Precinct 1, 2, and 3, and it's related to the 11 property coverage invoice from Texas Association of 12 Counties. I need -- we need to increase the budget for the 13 Sheriff's Office for vehicle insurance for $2,931. We're 14 doing that by transferring $1,501 from Jailer Salaries and 15 $1,430 from -- from the insurance -- from the Property 16 Casualty Insurance line item from the Jail. For Constable 17 Precinct 1, we need to transfer $201 from Office Supplies to 18 Vehicle Insurance, and for Constable Precinct 2, 19 transferring $201 also from Office Supplies to -- that says 20 Maintenance; it should be insurance -- Vehicle Insurance. 21 For Constable Precinct 3, we're transferring $201 from 22 Office Supplies to Vehicle Insurance. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the deal on 24 the constables? Why do we have such a shortfall so quickly 25 here? 11-8-04 37 1 MR. TOMLINSON: I think -- I think, in the 2 budget process, we -- last year, we only -- we had a short 3 year for premium, and we budgeted based on what we paid 4 for -- for the prior year. If you remember that last year, 5 our premium year was only for nine months. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That would 7 explain it. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: So I think that's the -- 9 that's the problem. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: This is going to handle all of 11 the vehicles that -- that we have the insurance on where we 12 budgeted short on them? 13 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. That -- we -- that 14 handles the premium for -- to TAC for the vehicle insurance, 15 unless there's additional purchases made from this point 16 forward. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: At which time we'd need to 18 build that into the purchase. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Tommy, I just want to 22 bring up that the -- on the constables' offices and their -- 23 their office supplies, I know that's not a huge item in 24 their budget, and I don't remember how much we budgeted for 25 them, but I know it's not a great deal. 11-8-04 38 1 MR. TOMLINSON: There was -- we increased 2 those budgets from, like, $150 to $650, and I don't -- I 3 didn't recall why we did -- why we did that. And, judging 4 on history for office supplies in those offices, it appears 5 that there's room for that move. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There may be. Looks 7 like we're taking about a fourth of the -- 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Their budgets are so small, 9 it's difficult to find a place, you know, to take it, and 10 that was the most logical. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I seem to recall that 12 on the -- their office supplies, they all made a -- a pitch 13 for -- they had to get ticket books printed and things of 14 that nature, and all of them had to do that. 15 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, there -- I don't -- 16 they haven't -- they haven't completed the transaction for 17 their -- I think it was radar units that, you know, they 18 were -- they were given some units, and there's -- they had 19 $1,500 budgeted for Capital Outlay for that purpose. Maybe 20 we -- maybe we're good there. I don't -- we just have to 21 wait to see what happens with that transaction. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My only point is -- is 23 that if they run out later on in the year, we need to 24 remember that we did this today to cover a budget oversight. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Good point, Commissioner. 11-8-04 39 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One comment I'd like to 2 make, Judge, about the vehicle insurance. I'm a little 3 concerned over -- that the Court, a couple of years ago, 4 went to -- from the $250 deductible to the $1,000 5 deductible. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: I've already explored that 7 situation, and we -- we made money by changing. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, this year, we're 9 back up to paying that -- within $1,000 of that same premium 10 we were before we upped the deductible, and I just would 11 like to -- 12 MR. TOMLINSON: No, we had a -- we had a 13 nine-month year the year before, and so we -- our premium 14 was -- was only -- was 75 percent of our normal premium last 15 year. But we also have more new vehicles. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm just concerned, 17 because it seems like ours in the last two years has gone 18 back up to the premium where it was before the deductible 19 was changed, and I don't think we're going to be saving any 20 money on that deal. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But insurance goes up 22 every year. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: That's right. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And if you'd quit hitting 25 deer -- 11-8-04 40 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That, I can't help. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That last comment was the only 3 suggestion I was going to make, Commissioner. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got a question 5 for the Sheriff. Sheriff, the jailers' salary is -- appears 6 to be about $64,000 under budget early in the budget year. 7 Now, my comment is, I was hoping that the significant 8 improvements we've made in compensation for jailers would -- 9 would dramatically reduce unwanted turnover. Is this under 10 budget due to turnover? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The under budget? 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We've got a budget 13 of 794,000, and we've got a balance of 73 -- 730,000 -- 14 we're over budget. Tell me about jailer turnover. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Jailer turnover has 16 pretty well gone away. We had several right at the end of 17 last budget year that left for other reasons to go to work 18 somewhere else, but it wasn't due to financial stuff at the 19 jail. Some of them were just older. But -- and we filled 20 those positions, which changed right at the new budget year. 21 But my jailer turnover rate -- I've got one that's been 22 working in the kitchen that has announced he's retiring 23 come, you know, another month; that he's through, but that's 24 it. The turnover rate, thanks to this Court and what y'all 25 have done with salaries and that, has changed that. 11-8-04 41 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 2 MR. TOMLINSON: I just gave you another 3 amendment. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me first -- the 5 numbers that you've crunched, Mr. Tomlinson, indicate that 6 by changing the deductible to a higher amount, that the 7 County has actually saved money? 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, we did. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any further question or 10 comments on Budget Amendment Request Number 2? 11 MR. TOMLINSON: I think maybe the reason for 12 that is that we have -- we have a lot of vehicles in -- in 13 Road and Bridge that we didn't have any losses on, and so by 14 the time you add all those vehicles together, that's what 15 affects the -- the savings. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the Sheriff may be 18 spending more, but because of other departments, we're 19 not -- 20 MR. TOMLINSON: It just so happened that, you 21 know -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's coming out of my 23 budget. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: -- that we had more losses in 25 the Sheriff's Office vehicles. 11-8-04 42 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's only fair, 2 Sheriff. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: I mean, that could change any 6 time, but just -- it happened, you know, that way. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Do I hear a motion for 8 approval of Budget Amendment Request Number 2? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So moved. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 12 approval of Budget Amendment Request Number 2. Any further 13 question or discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify 14 by raising your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 19 Budget Amendment Request Number 3. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. This amendment is a 21 request by the County Clerk to transfer funds to Election 22 Supplies and Ballot Expenses. She's asking for $669.54 go 23 to Election Supplies, $2,414.69 into Ballot Expenses. She's 24 transferring $3,084.23 from Election Judges line item. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you repeat those 11-8-04 43 1 numbers? Those numbers aren't what I have. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Huh-uh. 3 MR. TOMLINSON: I thought you got a copy of 4 what I have. No, this is different. I'm sorry. 5 MS. PIEPER: Mindy and I worked on this 6 Friday, so you may not have the updated one. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: This is the one that's 8 signed. 9 MS. PIEPER: We worked on it so quick, I 10 didn't sign the updated one. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: This is the -- this is the 12 new one, then? 13 MS. PIEPER: The one that is not signed is 14 the new one. 15 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay. Well, I'm not privy to 16 that information. 17 MS. PIEPER: I'm sorry. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: So -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would explain 20 why you didn't know the answer. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Want to sign one? 22 MS. PIEPER: I'll sign one. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay, we'll try again. Okay. 24 The transfer, as it reads on the unsigned one, is transfer 25 of $3,000 from Election Judges, $313.50 in Public Notices, 11-8-04 44 1 $1,244.65 into Election Supplies -- wait a minute. This 2 doesn't balance either. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. Look at the 4 bottom, though. There's a balance of -- 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Okay, 8,618.38 into Ballot 6 Expenses. To make this balance, we need $7,176.53 to come 7 from the General Fund -- General Fund, surplus reserve, or a 8 transfer from -- from Contingency. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: From what? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: From Contingency in the 11 Commissioners Court budget. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In order to go to the 13 General Fund, we must declare an emergency. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: That's correct. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is not an 16 emergency, in my opinion. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, if we have a 18 Contingency, okay, which we do, then my recommendation would 19 be to take it from -- from the Contingency line item. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you have that 21 number? Because we should be taking your advice. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't have the balance, but 23 I know that we haven't used any of that, so -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The number is 10 -- 25 MR. TOMLINSON: I think we budgeted $15,000. 11-8-04 45 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He's not going to 2 answer. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you're right, 4 we did. So, come from -- what are you talking about, the 5 line item? What the line item number is? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Nondepartmental Contingency? 7 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, that would be the line. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree that's where 9 it ought to come from. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I think that's probably 11 sufficient identification, without giving the account number 12 itself. It's Nondepartmental -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: -- Contingency. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 17 approval of Budget Amendment Request Number 3, with the 18 excess to come from Nondepartmental Contingency line item. 19 Any further question or discussion? All in favor of the 20 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Do we 25 have any late bills? 11-8-04 46 1 MR. TOMLINSON: No. No, we don't. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Tomlinson? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Here's a signed one. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: It is 9:55, and we will move 7 to Item Number 4, open the sealed health insurance proposals 8 and refer the same to the County health benefits consultant, 9 Catto and Catto, for recommendation. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They appear to be in many 11 different forms, based on the thickness of the packages. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: The first proposal that I have 13 is submitted by Wallace and Associates. I don't know how 14 much you want to get into the record here. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Probably just the name 16 will be sufficient, just because they're so different. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: There are a number of 18 different proposals submitted, so... The second one 19 submitted is from the Standard Insurance Company in San 20 Antonio. The third proposal is from Jefferson Pilot 21 Financial submitted by Wallace and Associates in Seguin. 22 Next one is from Benefit Planners. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm not sure if this is a 24 different one or part of the other one, but it appears to be 25 different. 11-8-04 47 1 JUDGE TINLEY: In a separate envelope, 2 another proposal by Benefit Planners. This indicates 3 proposal for claims administration services. The other may 4 be for the actual stop loss coverage. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe they both say 6 the same. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Next proposal is Providence 8 Insurance and Administrative Services. Next proposal is 9 from Employee Benefit Administrators and Bryan Finley. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These were all banded 11 together, so -- 12 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a number of envelopes 13 from Texas Association of Counties, Health and Employee 14 Benefits Pools. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That was in the same -- 16 all those were together. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Bryan Finley and Associates 18 appears to be in connection with Texas Association of 19 Counties. Is that -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That was submitted bundled 22 together? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think so. That's 24 correct. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Next proposal is from 11-8-04 48 1 Texas Association of Counties, Health and Employee Benefits 2 Pool. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a lot like 4 Christmas. That goes with it. That's the time sheet, or 5 the -- 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Seem to be getting 7 bigger, don't they? Next proposal is from Wallace and 8 Associates and Mutual of Omaha, it appears. Thank you, sir. 9 It's good that you carry a pocketknife. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Number 3's having a 11 hard time. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Everything they can put 13 it inside of. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Next proposal is from Group 15 and Pension Administrators, Incorporated. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner 17 Baldwin, sitting on the end of the table has got some 18 benefit, doesn't it? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It does. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the last one, 21 Judge. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: And the last proposal we have 23 is from -- looks like Benesight, B-e-n-e-s-i-g-h-t. I don't 24 see any agency designation. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I move we accept 11-8-04 49 1 all proposals and refer them to Catto and Catto for 2 recommendation. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 5 acceptance of all the proposals and referral to Catto and 6 Catto for recommendation. Any further question or 7 discussion? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, I do have a 9 question. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Somebody back there 11 has a -- 12 MR. LOONEY: Judge? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Gary Looney. 14 MR. LOONEY: Thank you. In your reading of 15 the proposals, did I not hear a proposal from your incumbent 16 carrier? Was there -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 18 MR. LOONEY: Was there one from the 19 incumbent? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, there was. 21 MR. LOONEY: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, my question is, on 23 the -- my memory fails me as to how our process is working 24 this year. We have all the proposals. What's the -- I 25 mean, and we're obviously referring them to our consultant 11-8-04 50 1 for recommendation, but I guess is it -- I mean, are we 2 going to -- is it going to be the exact same plan we have 3 now, or are we going to relook at the plan? I mean, what's 4 the process? 5 MR. LOONEY: There's supposed to be a number 6 of options within those proposals for various different 7 plans; that was part of the RFP process itself. So, during 8 this next stage -- during this next phase, we'll have a 9 negotiation phase. We'll measure what the current plan is 10 and the prices against the proposals, and also look at 11 options for the benefit plan design. One of the things that 12 I had talked to the Judge about is having a -- a 13 Commissioners meeting so that we can go over, in the 14 interim, during the bid process, what the different options 15 would be during that time frame, so that I can get some 16 guidance from you all as to where we need to go with that. 17 But it will not simply be a -- you know, Here's where we 18 were before, here's the price going into the future. No, 19 we'll have -- we'll have options, a number of options. One 20 of the reasons I wanted to have the session -- the training 21 session is to go over those options with you all well before 22 I make my recommendation to the Court. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, is that planned? 24 Do you have a date in mind for that training? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I had -- 11-8-04 51 1 MS. MITCHELL: 15th. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, a week from today was 3 the first -- first alternative, and I had asked Ms. Mitchell 4 to poll you gentlemen and find out your availability on that 5 date. And Mr. Looney said he'd be available on that date, 6 and we'd have a workshop. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. That's what I -- 8 that was my question. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And if we haven't got that 10 nailed down by today, I thought we could today. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 15th? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Afternoon session 14 would be okay for me. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Afternoon, as opposed to 16 morning? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 1 o'clock? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That work for you? He said 20 he's going to need about an hour and a half ideally, I 21 believe. 22 MR. LOONEY: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think it does. I 24 don't have my other calendar with me. I -- I surely want to 25 be a part of the process, because I'd like to know more 11-8-04 52 1 about -- have more information on this issue this year than 2 I had last year. Go ahead for 1 o'clock Monday, and I'll -- 3 I'll confirm that. 4 MR. LOONEY: If you need to vary that in the 5 afternoon, that's fine. I'm available the whole 6 afternoon -- entire afternoon. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I normally have juvenile cases 8 begin at 3:00, so 1:00 ought to work just about right for 9 me. We appreciate you making yourself available, Mr. 10 Looney. 11 MR. LOONEY: Not a problem. The other thing 12 I think we need is something to help me carry all those 13 proposals out to the car. We can stack them up. 14 MR. HOLEKAMP: I'll get one of my guys up 15 here in a minute. Will that be all right? 16 MR. LOONEY: That will be great. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: You have about 15 minutes? 18 I've got an item on the agenda, and as soon as I'm through. 19 MR. LOONEY: Fine. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Does that -- does that 21 address your question, Commissioner Letz? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, good. Okay. Any 24 further question or discussion on the motion? All in favor 25 of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11-8-04 53 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just one other 6 comment on that, if I might, Judge. If it's possible to 7 have any summary information in advance of that meeting, 8 that would be helpful. If it's not, it's okay, but I do 9 think members of this Court need to be able to spend 10 whatever time they need to studying this issue. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's move on to our 12 next timed item. At this time, I will recess the 13 Commissioners Court meeting, and I will convene a public 14 hearing for the revision of a plat for Kerr Vista Ranch, 15 Section Four, Lots 29 through 35, in Volume 5, Page 237 16 through 242, located in Precinct 4. 17 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:10 a.m., and a public hearing 18 was held in open court, as follows:) 19 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the 21 public here present today that wishes to be heard with 22 respect to the revision of the plat for Kerr Vista Ranch, 23 Section Four, Lots 29 through 35, in Volume 5, Page 237 24 through 242? Any member of the public wish to be heard? 25 There being no indication of that, I will close the public 11-8-04 54 1 hearing. 2 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:10 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 3 meeting was reopened.) 4 - - - - - - - - - - 5 JUDGE TINLEY: And the next item on the 6 agenda is a 10:05 item, to open bids for engineered metal 7 roof replacement and HVAC replacement of the Hill Country 8 Youth Exhibit Center. Time for you to go to work again, 9 Commissioner Letz. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These are at least 11 envelopes. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Don't need an axe to get into 13 them. First one I have is from Hardin Heating and Cooling. 14 Next one is Professional Installation Services, 15 Foxworth-Galbraith. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge -- 17 JUDGE TINLEY: You prefer that I read the 18 numbers out? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the amounts 20 should be on these, 'cause it's pretty clear. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. On the first one with 22 Hardin Heating and Cooling, this appears to be as to the 23 HVAC only. $41,425, per the proposal. The Professional 24 Installation Services from Foxworth-Galbraith, it indicates 25 for the engineered metal roof portion, $101,250. The next 11-8-04 55 1 one is from Compton's of Kerrville, Inc. While there's 2 nothing to definitively indicate what it's for, it appears 3 to be only for -- I'm going to assume it's for HVAC only. 4 Yes, here it is. The spec sheets indicate it's for HVAC 5 only. That amount is $70,057.46. Next one is from R & J 6 Eagle Contractors, Incorporated, HVAC bid. Amount is 7 $73,658. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: HVAC. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Next one is a bid for HVAC, 10 State Aire, $54,036. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Say that again, 12 please? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: $54,036. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Next one is from Air Tech, 16 HVAC. It appears that there are alternates here, electric 17 or gas. It shows a price, $34,000; heat pump, $42,000; gas, 18 $37,000. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Roof, I believe. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Next one is from R & J Eagle 21 Contractors with respect to the reroofing. Galvalune, 22 209,850. Colored high-seam, 223,470. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And one more final roof 24 one. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: And the next one is from 11-8-04 56 1 Feller Fabrication. That's on the engineered metal roof 2 system. There are, apparently, two bids. One is with air 3 conditioning; I assume that has something to do with the 4 removal of the existing. I'm not sure without evaluating. 5 That amount is $108,431. Notation, "No A/C, $99,431." Is 6 that all, Commissioner Letz? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's all that I believe 8 we received. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Looks like we got some pretty 10 good participation. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we accept all bids 13 and refer them to the Maintenance Director for review and 14 recommendation. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 17 acceptance of bid and referral to the Maintenance Director 18 for review and recommendation. Any question or discussion? 19 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 20 hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Holekamp? 11-8-04 57 1 MR. HOLEKAMP: Yes, sir? 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Where are we on a 3 new or improved P.A. system for the facility? 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: It's been completed. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you, sir. 6 I -- I don't have a lot of interest in it, but I'm just 7 trying the take care of Commissioner Williams, 'cause he 8 promised everybody in the county that it would be fixed. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When do we hog 10 callers have an opportunity to check it out? 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: The first hog show you wish to 12 participate in, I guess. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We'll go check it 14 out. 15 MR. HOLEKAMP: All right, that'd be fine. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to the next timed 17 item on the agenda slated for 10:15. I will recess the 18 Commissioners Court meeting, and I will convene a public 19 hearing for the revision of plats for The Reserve of Falling 20 Water, Lots 21 and 22 into Lot 21A, and Lots 6, 7E and 7W 21 into Lot 6R. 22 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:18 a.m., and a public hearing 23 was held in open court, as follows:) 24 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the 11-8-04 58 1 public that wishes to be heard with respect to the revision 2 of plats for The Reserve of Falling Water, Lots 21 and 22 3 into lot 21A, and Lots 6, 7E and 7W into Lot 6R? Any member 4 of the public wishing to be heard on this item? Seeing no 5 one coming forward or otherwise indicating an interest, I 6 will close the public hearing. 7 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:18 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 8 meeting was reopened.) 9 - - - - - - - - - - 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I will reconvene the 11 Commissioners Court and call agenda Item Number 9, revision 12 of plats for The Reserve of Falling Water, Lots 21 and 22 13 into 21A, and Lots 6, 7E, and 7W into Lot 6R. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Len, as I understand, we 15 had a plat a while back. I don't have one with me now, but 16 my recollection is that both of these are decreasing -- 17 we're not -- we are not increasing the number of lots in the 18 subdivision. 19 MR. ODOM: That's correct. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 23 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 24 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 25 your right hand. 11-8-04 59 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Why don't 5 we stand in recess for about 15 minutes? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a good idea. 7 (Recess taken from 10:19 a.m. to 10:35 a.m.) 8 - - - - - - - - - - 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's come back to 10 order, if we could, please. I'll reconvene the meeting of 11 the Commissioners Court scheduled for this date. Next item 12 on the agenda is a timed item. Number 10, presentation by 13 the Alamo Rural Transportation by Beverly Lutz, the A.R.T. 14 Transportation Manager, and Randy Plummer, Kerrville Station 15 Manager. Commissioner, Precinct 2, Commissioner Williams. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, this is just 17 an effort to bring the Court up to date on those activities 18 that are -- and programs that are sponsored by and 19 administered by AACOG, that have value and meaning to 20 citizens of Kerr County, one of which is the transportation 21 program -- the regional transportation program. So, it's my 22 pleasure to introduce to you today Beverly Lutz, who is the 23 Regional Transportation Manager, and Randy Plummer, who is 24 the Manager of the Kerrville Intermodal Transportation 25 Facility, and I've asked them to come to us today and just 11-8-04 60 1 talk a little bit about transportation, give you some sense 2 of what's available and what we do, what the numbers are, 3 the participation and so forth. Beverly? 4 MS. LUTZ: Good morning. Thank you for that. 5 We've prepared some packages here; I want you to have those, 6 and we'll kind of run through those a little bit. I am 7 Beverly Lutz. I am the Transportation Manager in Alamo 8 Regional Transit. We provide rural public transportation 9 for 11 counties in AACOG, which we do now direct services in 10 10 of those 11 counties. We do the Medicaid contract, which 11 is 11 of the 10 counties -- I mean 11 of the 11 counties. 12 In your packet, you'll see the -- the first part of it is -- 13 this is the packet that we hand out to the area judges every 14 month, and you'll see that only September is filled in. And 15 we -- we keep filling these in every month. As you turn the 16 page, you'll see there's a page for each county. There's 17 Atascosa, Comal, Guadalupe, and then you'll see Kerr back 18 there; it's behind Kendall, and there's Kerr County, what 19 Kerr County did for September of '04. And then, like I say, 20 as we fill in the -- the months, we hand these out to the 21 area judges every month. 22 The very last page, it says C.C.S.C.T.; 23 that's Community Council of South Central Texas. That is 24 provided by them, and they do the public transportation. 25 They're the only subcontractor that we have in the area. 11-8-04 61 1 The next package that you have shows you last year's 2 numbers, so you can go and compare as we go through the 3 months, and it's the same type of order. You have the 4 cumulative summary, and then you have the counties following 5 for Comal, Frio, Atascosa. You'll see Kerr back there 6 again. And the last page, again, will be Community Council 7 of South Central Texas. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, just so everybody 9 understands, Beverly, on the -- on the annual summary for 10 Kerr County, for folks 60 and under, there were 10,303 11 trips; is that correct? And for 60-plus, there were 8,917 12 trips, for a total of 19,220? 13 MS. LUTZ: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Trips that were 15 originated out of the intermodal facility? 16 MS. LUTZ: Correct. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For residents of Kerr 18 County; is that correct? 19 MS. LUTZ: Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 21 MS. LUTZ: The next part of your packet is 22 the copy of the fares, the rate sheets that we have. So, in 23 case anybody in your area came and asked you about 24 transportation, what would the fares be, we've got it from 25 town to town. It's a little bit easier than trying to 11-8-04 62 1 figure out the mileage. This way, everybody knows exactly 2 what the mileage will be from -- say from Bandera in town, 3 or Bandera to Wharton's dock. And it goes down; you'll see 4 where it says Kerrville in the second column. The next page 5 talks about Atascosa County. Then you'll see following that 6 are -- is a fare sheet for each county. So, it gives you 7 a -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are these mandatory 9 fares or are these suggested fares, or how is that handled? 10 MS. LUTZ: These are mandatory fares, except 11 for Title III services, which could be just for the 12 nutrition centers and going to and from medical treatments 13 for people that are over 60; then it's contribution. But 14 we're into discussions on that one currently. We've got 15 some decisions that need to be made, because their funding 16 is very short, limited funding for what we're trying to do 17 with the seniors. We have more demand than funding. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are these -- on the -- 19 who's eligible to use this service? 20 MS. LUTZ: Everyone. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyone? 22 MS. LUTZ: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's no -- it's not 24 just for the -- you know, for the -- 25 MS. LUTZ: No, the service is for all ages. 11-8-04 63 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How does it work? I 2 mean -- 3 MR. PLUMMER: I'll give you an overview on 4 that in just a second. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 MS. LUTZ: Okay. On the next page, it just 7 talks about the drug and alcohol program. I just wanted to 8 give y'all little bullets on that, just to let you know that 9 we do have a drug and alcohol program. If anyone tests 10 positive, they're automatically terminated for employment; 11 they are no longer eligible to work for us. Our policy is 12 so good that the State has recommended it to be used as an 13 example in the Best Practices manual for the state for other 14 providers. The next page is kind of like what you were 15 asking, the types of services. It tells you on there it's a 16 service for all ages, so anyone -- if they want to go 17 shopping or to the doctor or go visit a friend even, they 18 can call up Randy at the Kerrville Intermodal Facility and 19 schedule the trip; get the fare sheet, and off they go. 20 Randy will talk a little bit more about what Kerrville does 21 in just a minute. 22 The next sheet is kind of some rules that we 23 have. It's a service for all ages. It's kind of a 24 client-rider brochure; it's front and back. It kind of 25 gives some general rules. And the next page is the same 11-8-04 64 1 rules, but in Spanish. And then the -- the next page, we're 2 working on a client survey form. We want to know how we're 3 doing with the riders, and I gave you this 'cause we're -- 4 right now they're at the printers; we don't have the final 5 document back, but this is exactly what's being printed up, 6 so -- and then on the back, it will have where they can mail 7 it back to us. I'm going to turn it over to Randy now. 8 He's going to tell you a little bit, you know, about what 9 the Kerrville facility does. I just wanted to give you this 10 so you can go back and look at them later. If you have any 11 questions, you're always free to call either Randy or I. We 12 put his card on the front of your envelope, so -- but I'm 13 going to let Randy talk more about Kerrville Intermodal 14 Facility. 15 MR. PLUMMER: In the new facility, we've been 16 established now for a little over a year. We've been 17 pleased that we've been able to operate. The Kerrville Bus 18 Company functions out of that facility as well as Alamo 19 Regional Transit. In terms of the Alamo Regional Transit, 20 we're a Monday-through-Friday operation. We are open from 21 8:00 to 5:00. Those are the hours that we actually take 22 reservations. We do some extended service before and after 23 hours if we have early morning or later in the evening 24 doctor's appointments, as well as runs for Medicaid; we do 25 have a Medicaid contract in our northern counties here, and 11-8-04 65 1 so we do do extended services. That could be anywhere from 2 6 o'clock in the morning pickup to get them over to the 3 Ambulatory Care Center or whatever happens to be going on. 4 So, we do go outside of those hours, but this is for the 5 appointment times. 6 We did go ahead and list the phone numbers. 7 I believe you have our local number as well as our 800 8 number, and our Kerrville Intermodal Facility operates for 9 Bandera, Gillespie, Kendall, and Kerr County. We did -- we 10 dispatch for those four counties out of this facility. We 11 do have trolleys available. Those are for public 12 transportation only. We do not do any charter service, so 13 no -- no private functions such as weddings. But, for 14 instance, we did the Texas Arts and Crafts Fair several 15 months back, and had a good turnout; we ran all four days 16 out there. The price on that is $60 per hour. We do 17 operate the Kerrville Bus Company out of there. They are -- 18 they do their own operations, but they're in the same 19 facility. They are open Monday through Friday, 8:00 to 20 5:00. They take cash only for bus tickets, and they do have 21 a shipping service available as well, so if y'all have any 22 shipping needs, feel free to utilize them. 23 I went ahead and listed the schedules also 24 for the Kerrville Bus Company, to just show you what -- how 25 many different buses are coming into and out of Kerrville 11-8-04 66 1 and from what directions. We currently have 14 buses that 2 come through Kerrville on a regular basis. So, in terms of 3 Alamo Regional Transit, we take reservations, and the 4 reservations are on a first-come, first-served basis, and we 5 have been extremely busy. We are in the process of 6 attempting to hire more drivers, and we're hiring part-time 7 drivers where we can have more flexibility in scheduling. 8 Again, the 8:00 to 5:00 hours are starting to extend 9 themselves more and more as we have -- have different 10 residents with different needs, so that -- that's been our 11 main focus. We do have a good fleet of vehicles, and we 12 have gotten the maintenance up on them, so we -- we're well 13 maintained and ready to travel, and we are just looking for 14 some additional resources in terms of personnel. Any 15 questions? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was just going to 17 make a comment to Commissioner Williams. We're bringing our 18 convention to Kerrville -- our association convention. 19 Seventy-seven commissioners courts will be in here, and I 20 was really wanting to use these trolleys, but, gosh, the 21 price is way too high for us. That's the only comment I 22 wanted to make. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm hearing your 24 comment. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. 11-8-04 67 1 That's all. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is free okay, 3 Commissioner? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's pretty close. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not making any 6 promises. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I can -- I'll 8 negotiate with you on that. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So we're somewhere 10 between 77 and free. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's great. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions or 14 comments? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to thank you 16 both for coming. It's neat to know exactly what's going on. 17 Kerr County has had this type of service for many years. 18 Before Alamo took it over, Dietert Senior Center operated 19 it, and a lot of our folks have come to expect it and use 20 it, and so I'm pleased to have you come down and tell us 21 about it. Thank you for your time. 22 MR. PLUMMER: Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you for taking the time 24 to come down and join us. 25 MR. PLUMMER: Thank you. 11-8-04 68 1 MS. LUTZ: Thank you. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The next item on the agenda is 3 a timed item, and at this time I will recess the 4 Commissioners Court and convene a public hearing for name 5 change, regulatory signs, resetting school zone at Nimitz 6 Elementary, abandoning, vacating, and discontinuing roads in 7 Kerr County in accordance with public notice that's been 8 published. 9 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:47 a.m., and a public hearing 10 was held in open court, as follows:) 11 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the 13 public that wishes to be heard concerning the name change, 14 regulatory signs, resetting school zone at Nimitz 15 Elementary, abandoning, vacating, and discontinuing roads in 16 Kerr County in accordance with the public notice? Being no 17 one -- excuse me. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I have -- two 19 people have contacted me and asked me to voice their concern 20 during this portion. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Very good. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They both are objecting 23 to the closing of a portion of Riojas Road. Gene Hall, 24 whose phone number is 995-2448, he objects to that. And 25 also Nancy Carr; phone number of her is (210) 847-0659. And 11-8-04 69 1 I just wanted to get that into the record. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there anyone else who 3 wishes to be heard with respect to the name changes, 4 regulatory signs, resetting school zone at Nimitz 5 Elementary, abandoning, vacating, and discontinuing roads in 6 Kerr County as given in the public notice? Hearing or 7 seeing no one stepping forward, I will close the public 8 hearing, and I will reconvene the Commissioners Court 9 meeting. 10 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:49 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court 11 meeting was reopened.) 12 - - - - - - - - - - 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 12, consider 14 approval of name change, regulatory signs, resetting school 15 zone at Nimitz Elementary, abandoning, vacating, and 16 discontinuing roads in Kerr County as provided in the public 17 notice and called in the public hearing. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, on this one, I 19 would request that we take no action on abandoning Louise 20 Ehler Lane East, the 380 foot of Riojas Road North, or the 21 name change of Louise Ehler Lane East to Barbara Way East. 22 I think we may be able to act on those at our next meeting, 23 but not today. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval of the 25 changes as outlined, with the exception of the abandonment 11-8-04 70 1 and the name change as noted by Commissioner 3. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 4 the approval of the agenda item, with the exception of the 5 abandonment, vacating, discontinuance of Louise Ehler Lane 6 East and 380 feet of Riojas North, and the name change of 7 Louise Ehler Lane East to Barbara Way East. Any question or 8 discussion? 9 MS. HARDIN: I have a question for 10 Commissioner Letz. On the -- on the Riojas, if we can work 11 with the gentleman to work on a cul-de-sac or a way to turn 12 around, would we then have to bring it back to the court, or 13 do we have to readvertise? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe if we are 15 within the nature -- I mean, pretty close to doing the 16 request as listed, I don't believe -- I don't believe we 17 need another public hearing. 18 MS. HARDIN: We do not? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do not. 20 MS. HARDIN: I will work with the gentleman 21 and see if we can work something out. Thank you. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further questions? 23 Comments? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 24 your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11-8-04 71 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, would you concur 5 that, I mean, as long as we don't substantially change a 6 road closure or abandonment, we would not need a new public 7 hearing? That's the way I would think. Do you agree? 8 JUDGE TINLEY: If there's no material 9 variance from -- from the notice of public hearing and what 10 the proposed action by the Court is, I don't think we need a 11 new public hearing. You would need a new agenda item, of 12 course, to do it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: But not a new public hearing, 15 unless there's going to be any material change. Let's go to 16 the next timed item, Item Number 13, consider and discuss 17 making agreements with the City of Kerrville and/or Kimble 18 County and Junction EMS to authorize Kimble County/Junction 19 EMS to provide emergency medical services to a certain 20 portion of northwest Kerr County. Commissioner Nicholson. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioners, in 22 our first meeting in October, we passed a motion authorizing 23 the County Judge to sign an agreement with Kimble County 24 providing for them to provide emergency medical services to 25 a portion of northwest Kerr County, and for him to modify an 11-8-04 72 1 agreement with the City of Kerrville that deals with the 2 provision of emergency medical services. In a subsequent 3 meeting, our last meeting, three additional issues came 4 up -- were raised. One had to do with liability of Kerr 5 County in the event that we contract with Kimble County to 6 provide these services. Second one had to do with the 7 capability of Kimble County to provide EMS services, and the 8 third one had to do with whether or not assigning this EMS 9 service to Kimble County was supported by a majority of the 10 residents that would be so served. I'm going to talk first 11 about the -- the capability issue, and then Mr. Motley and 12 Mr. Budow are here to talk about the liability and the will 13 of the majority of the citizens. 14 Most of the comments I have about facts on 15 the capability of Kimble EMS are -- I learned from work done 16 by Ms. Rosa Lavender, reported in the West Kerr Current, so 17 I want to make sure I give credit for that and to thank the 18 West Kerr Current for doing that research. And I want to 19 preface it by saying that I have not heard in this proposal 20 any concern about the capability of Kerrville EMS; that the 21 capability is not the issue. It's their ability to get 22 there in a timely manner to provide the needed services. 23 What we see is that the closest Kerrville EMS station is 24 52.1 miles from the Y.O. Ranchlands gate. Kimble is 25 22.1 miles. 52 miles versus 22 miles. Kimble is 30 miles 11-8-04 73 1 closer than the closest Kerrville EMS. Kimble's got 20 2 medical responders, including three paramedics. Most of the 3 other 17 responders are intermediate level E.M.T.'s. Their 4 E.M.T.'s take calls working six-hour shifts, and they must 5 be within four minutes of the EMS building while they're on 6 those shifts. Kimble EMS has three ambulances serving 4,500 7 residents. Kerrville has five ambulances serving 45,000 8 residents. The ratio there is, each ambulance serves 1,500 9 people in Kimble, and each ambulance in Kerrville serves 10 9,000 people. The Kimble EMS is housed next to the Kendall 11 County Hospital. Some E.M.T.'s are hospital employees. 12 Others are volunteer firefighters and law enforcement 13 personnel. 14 The hospital's C.E.O., a Mrs. Marlene Jones, 15 is also the EMS Director, so the hospital and EMS are tied 16 closely together. Most calls are made with three people on 17 board the ambulance, including one paramedic who can provide 18 advance cardiac life support care. Marlene Jones, the -- 19 the EMS coordinator, says the -- is quoted as saying the 20 quicker response available from Junction, with the strong 21 medical service they have in place, would create competent 22 emergency medical response for Y.O. Ranchlands residents. 23 And last, they provide the option that patients who are 24 served by Kimble EMS can choose whether -- whether they go 25 to hospitals in San Angelo, Kerrville, Fredericksburg, or 11-8-04 74 1 San Antonio. These -- these facts are enough to convince me 2 that Kerr citizens in the northwest corner of the county 3 will be better served by Kimble EMS than by Kerrville EMS. 4 Again, simply a function of the amount of time it takes to 5 get those services to the victim. That's all I have on the 6 capability. Mr. Budow, do you want to address the issue of 7 what is the will of the citizens of far west Kerr County? 8 MR. BUDOW: I invited some of my neighbors 9 today, and there's perhaps some other concerned citizens. I 10 thought I'd quickly review where we've been over the past 11 nine months or so. This is my sixth time; I'm hoping that 12 the sixth is the charm today. So, to quickly review, we saw 13 five -- we've seen five objections since April raised, and I 14 thought I'd just click them off very quickly. The response 15 time and capability, one and two. The need for an 16 interlocal or mutual aid agreement between the County and 17 the County and the City, respectively. The opinion of 18 counsel as to the liability implications. And number five 19 ultimately is the will of the people or the -- the public, 20 including the expanded service area that Kerrville asked us 21 to consider at the last meeting. 22 Beginning with Chapter 774 of the local -- 23 the Health and Safety Code, state provisions of the Health 24 and Safety Code dealing with the local provision of 25 emergency services, this very specific instance is called 11-8-04 75 1 out. I will just read it to you briefly. A municipality 2 shall provide emergency medical services for the county in 3 which that municipality is located, or for a municipality 4 located within 30 miles of that municipality, if it meets 5 all the standard T's and C's of the interlocal agreement. 6 So, I think the fact that we're within 22 miles, less than 7 30; the fact that we've made this request, and the fact that 8 it's called out within the state Health and Safety Code 9 provides you a -- I'll call it a safe harbor, for lack of 10 another term, appreciating that that has some legal 11 implications to it. 12 With regard to response time, I won't repeat 13 what Commissioner Nicholson said, other than 22 versus 52. 14 There was some question in the past that they're a volunteer 15 service, and could they possibly respond in a timely 16 fashion? They are, by contract, obligated, as you've heard, 17 to be within four minutes of the center. They are typically 18 across the parking lot and in the hospital. We're talking 19 about R.N.'s and paramedics and certified emergency response 20 nurses, volunteer or not, and in this case they actually 21 receive a fee on the EMS side. We're convinced, as -- as 22 all research has shown, that their response time will be 23 superior. In fact, we'd rather have an Eagle Scout in 20 24 minutes than a doctor in an hour. It's just that simple. 25 Capability. As Commissioner Nicholson again 11-8-04 76 1 said, it's not about Kerrville's capability. Somehow we got 2 waylaid on whether Kerr -- Kerrville's capability was -- was 3 appropriate or not. That's not the issue. The issue is, 4 can they get there in something under an hour? Reasonable 5 period of time. Fast as you can drive 52 miles versus fast 6 as you can drive 22 miles. That's the issue for us. 7 There's six times better ambulance coverage; we've already 8 talked about that. There's paramedics on most runs, which 9 was called into question earlier, but I think that's been 10 mitigated by the facts as they came out. We've established 11 protocols with 9-1-1 and Kimble once you approved our moving 12 forward, so that the question of was the handoff going to be 13 consistent, was it going to be dealt with in a standard 14 manner, and -- and would they deliver standard services 15 appears to have been dealt with. So, those are the 16 capability and response time. 17 With regard to the agreements and the 18 interlocals, again, as was said, there was a unanimous 19 motion approved by this Court giving the Judge permission to 20 sign on two contingencies. As to form, the County Attorney 21 produced two interlocal agreements for mutual aid 22 agreements, one for Kimble and one between Kerrville and 23 Kerr County, so I would say that the form contingency has 24 been met. The Kerrville contingency -- or the second 25 contingency was that Kerrville agreed to -- to agree, if you 11-8-04 77 1 will, with the circumstance. And what we heard last time is 2 that they do. They are not opposed to it. They don't 3 support it, but they're in agreement with the documents that 4 have been put forward, with one additional contingency, that 5 being the expanded service area. And I'll deal with that 6 when we come to the question of the will of the people. 7 Motley, you want to get in now, or you want to wait? 8 MR. MOTLEY: Doesn't make any difference to 9 me. Let me just -- let me just real quickly say that a 10 question had been raised, sort of a general question about 11 the -- maybe the difficult situation Kerr County might face 12 for having the agreement with Kimble County. I can't see 13 any increase in liability. I mean, and this is -- I think 14 it's a governmental function that Kerr County would be 15 performing. We are allowed to contract with other persons, 16 other agencies, other -- in this case, another ambulance 17 service to provide this essential service. If anything, you 18 know, Kerr County might be, it seems to me, facing some kind 19 of a potential increase in liability for not doing something 20 to improve the service when something is available to 21 improve the service for the residents out there. I just 22 don't see any increase -- I didn't look up a jillion cases 23 or anything, but just -- I just don't see any -- you know, 24 there's nothing to say that Kerr County would not be sued. 25 For example, if a run is made by the Junction people and 11-8-04 78 1 something bad happens, there's nothing to say Kerr County 2 won't be sued, 'cause they probably will be sued. You know, 3 whether or not they're successful ultimately is going to 4 depend on what sort of immunities and what defenses and such 5 are available and how the case shakes out. But, you know, 6 there's no shield from -- necessarily from being sued. But 7 I just don't see any increase in liability, I guess, long 8 and short. If y'all have any questions, I'll be happy to 9 answer those. 10 MR. BUDOW: All right. Then, last objection 11 that was on the table was the will of the people. I will 12 repeat what I've said before, and then add to that in light 13 of -- of the last meeting. I'm here; I have several 14 neighbors who are also Ranchlands and board members here to 15 address this as well. We've had properly noticed, duly 16 called meetings with this item discussed where we've had a 17 majority, over 60 percent, represented, and not a single 18 objection. Not a single one. Now, that said, the 19 individual -- a former developer in our area who owns a 20 total of 61 of the 11,000 acres was raised last time. 21 Didn't participate, hasn't responded to the -- to the 22 surveys. I've followed up on that after the last meeting to 23 include a survey of over 80 percent of the people in 24 writing. I've received more than half back. Again, 25 gentlemen, no objections. 11-8-04 79 1 I know Commissioner Baldwin has called 2 around. I'd be anxious to hear if -- if he found particular 3 objections in our precinct, but I haven't been able to find 4 them. I know there's one individual, but I think that -- 5 it's enough said that this individual is a former developer 6 in this area. He owns 61 of the 11,000 acres. And so, 7 within our little area, I can't comment on his particular 8 interest. He does own some acreage -- considerable acreage 9 north of us. But, again, let's look at the -- look at the 10 maps. What we find is that -- I took the -- whatever you 11 want to call it, the purple and brown map, made a black and 12 white out of it, and the little green stripe up here, this 13 little green stripe is what belongs to Mr. Cummings that we 14 know of. The blacked-in area -- all the rest of the 15 blacked-in area, I have spoken to a majority of the 16 landowners, and a majority of the landowners continue to 17 support this position. 18 This ranch up here in the corner of -- the 19 easternmost corner of the area that Kerr County -- Kerrville 20 proposed to include in the expanded area is part of a very 21 large ranch that's under trust, and actually, the only house 22 on it is in Kimble County, so I'm not sure whether that 23 should be or shouldn't be included, but to the extent that 24 it needs to be, I've spoken to the land manager -- the 25 manager about it and received their approval. They are 11-8-04 80 1 midway between Kimble and Kerrville anyway, so they don't 2 care. This green area up here is the area under question. 3 You can see all the green area is what we've been talking 4 about, the will of the area, the white and slashed-in area, 5 the people who either I haven't gotten in direct contact 6 with or are represented by Mr. Cummings. 7 Two other points to make. One is just to 8 make visible the 52 miles versus 22 miles. Junction is 9 coming from here to there. Kerrville has to come one of two 10 routes. They're coming -- from the Coronado station, they 11 come up 27, go all the way around 41 into Real County, back 12 up through Edwards County, and then they get to us, so it's 13 a -- it's a roundabout way. Its just a visual 14 representation of how quick one can get to us versus the 15 other. Lastly, I wish to point out that Kerrville is 16 serving county residents in Edwards County that they will 17 have to pass through over here, and they are serving 18 residents in Gillespie County outside here, but more 19 particularly, just like us, inside the county, we have 20 Gillespie serving everything in the corner of Kerr County. 21 So, this is not, again, a precedent that is new to anyone. 22 It should be a matter of -- of adjusting the agreements to 23 the acceptance of -- of both Kerrville and Kimble and Kerr, 24 of course. So, on that basis, I'd like to ask that if there 25 are no further objections, that the Judge be allowed to, as 11-8-04 81 1 authorized previously, sign and execute the agreements that 2 are on the table. So, before I do that, I thought it might 3 be worthwhile for the press and for you gentlemen to hear 4 from some of the neighbors as well, if you'd like, on this 5 point. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: As indicated by Mr. Budow, I 7 have some participation forms that have been received in 8 connection with this item. First one I have is from 9 Mr. Bruce S. Drake. Mr. Drake? 10 MR. DRAKE: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: If you'll come forward, 12 please, sir? 13 MR. DRAKE: Good morning, Judge. It's a 14 pleasure to be here. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 16 MR. DRAKE: I stand to speak in favor of -- 17 of you executing those agreements, as you might imagine. 18 I'm a retired fellow, and I live out there full-time and 19 expose myself to chainsaws and cedar removal quite often, 20 and when someone's hurt, we expect to get response help 21 there as quickly as we can. And so I think you guys have 22 been dealt a very difficult situation. Your forefathers -- 23 or our forefathers had the wisdom to stick the county seat 24 in the extreme southeast corner of this county and give you 25 guys an undue burden to deal with, and I'm -- I don't know 11-8-04 82 1 how you do that. That's tough. Anybody with any wisdom 2 would stick the county seat in the center of the county, 3 like most other counties in this country, but you guys have 4 a challenge. But, to me, it's obvious what's right. I 5 think it's obvious to you what's right, and I would 6 encourage you to do what's right, Judge. So, thanks for 7 your time. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. We appreciate 9 you being here. Mr. Robert W. Owen. 10 MR. OWEN: Thank you, Judge, Commissioners. 11 Appreciate the opportunity to come up here and speak briefly 12 in favor of this proposal also. I'm a resident of the Y.O. 13 Ranchlands and far west Kerr County, as Mr. Drake who just 14 spoke. Been there about two years. In that two years 15 full-time, I'm aware of three instances in which 9-1-1 has 16 been called, Kerr -- Kerr EMS, and in all three instances, 17 the response was as swift as they could, but it took 18 somewhere between an hour and 10 minutes and hour and 20 19 minutes to actually get an ambulance to the victim. And in 20 one of those three instances, there was a car fire. Kerr 21 EMS was called and Kimble Volunteer Fire Department was 22 called. The VFD was at the car in 17 minutes and had the -- 23 had the fire out, and it took about another 50 minutes for 24 the Kerr people to get there. Again, as has been said 25 before, this is not a question of capability. I've talked 11-8-04 83 1 to a number of the Kerr EMS folks. They're fine people, 2 very highly qualified. It's just a question of how fast 3 they can get there. So, I would urge you to -- to allow 4 this -- this to proceed. Thank you very much. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you very much, sir. 6 Mr. Paul Bryant. 7 MR. BRYANT: Thank you very much. I'm about 8 a 15-year landowner, but have lived out there full-time for 9 about 5 years. If I could, let me just walk through my 10 thought process on this, and I think I can duplicate my 11 thought process and the majority of the landowners out 12 there. Five years ago, if you'd asked me what do I want, 13 you come to me cold, I would have said, "Oh, no, don't take 14 me to Junction." You know, you got a great big hospital in 15 Kerrville. That's probably the thing to do. My wife and I 16 talked about this greatly, and I said, "Okay. Well, if 17 anything bad happens, just tell them to get the helicopter 18 out there." Well, when you go through an education process 19 like we've all gone through, you tend to have certain 20 revelations. One -- one is that Kimble is very competent 21 and can handle it as Kerr could, so we have two 22 possibilities now. After visitations with the leadership of 23 the Kerr County EMS, we find out we can't just have the 24 helicopter, quote, come get us; that, you know, a land 25 vehicle must come out and then they make the decision as to 11-8-04 84 1 whether or not a helicopter is appropriate. So, now we have 2 -- we've chewed up more time. 3 So, our thought process is, guess what? One 4 more time, if we can be served competently, but from a much 5 closer location, it makes all the sense in the world. And 6 then, if it makes sense after we're stabilized to move us to 7 Kerr, to San Antonio or wherever, I think that makes all the 8 sense in the world. When I talk about my thought process, 9 I'm also the past president of the landowners' association; 10 I was Harry's predecessor in this. When someone buys a 11 tract, they're usually from Houston or Dallas or somewhere 12 like that. They have exactly the same thought. They say, 13 "No, I don't want to go to Junction. It's too small. I 14 want to go someplace big." After we have the same 15 discussion with them, invariably, without exception, they 16 come around to the same answer that we have come to. So, at 17 the end of the day, I think that we, as citizens on the far 18 west side, are better served in the manner that Mr. Budow 19 has -- has described to you, and we ask for your assistance 20 and cooperation in this. Thank you very much. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: My turn? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Either you or me, or 24 somebody else. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 11-8-04 85 1 MR. BUDOW: I'm done. I'm just waiting. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I certainly 3 didn't want to interrupt you. 4 MR. BUDOW: No, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've been dealing in 6 Kerr County, been dealing with emergency service folks for 7 many years, and any time that you're dealing with insurance 8 rates and all those things, response time is the first 9 criteria that you take a look at. And I -- and I agree, 10 response time is. But I would not put off -- or put down 11 the issue of quality of care. I think that that is -- to 12 me, it's equally as important as response time, if not more 13 important. And I'm certainly not going to belittle 14 Junction. I have no idea -- I have -- some of those people 15 in that deal there are my relatives, so I'm certainly not 16 going to say anything bad. But I can say this; that the 17 City of Kerrville EMS service is the very best service in 18 the state of Texas, and they've been named so. The quality 19 of care is night and day. I think I would -- but I'd agree 20 with you, Mr. Budow, that I think that I would rather have 21 an Eagle Scout before I would a doctor, as well. 22 Now, I took it upon myself last week to -- to 23 get a list of the homeowners and property owners out there, 24 and I called and I talked to about 10 folks. I don't recall 25 you gentlemen, but -- I don't know if I talked to you or 11-8-04 86 1 not, but I talked to about 10 homeowners, and all but two 2 were in favor of the Junction service. There were two that 3 -- that have negative comments about it, and that -- that 4 was really my concern. I mean, I'm certainly not -- I'm not 5 a government person that wants to make decisions for you in 6 your lives; I want you to do that. But I want to make sure 7 that you're making the right decision. And -- and it 8 appears that you guys have researched it and studied it, and 9 it's your desire to go with the Junction service, so I am 10 too. That's all. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I only have one 12 question, and one comment. Mr. Budow, if -- if a Kerr 13 County resident, either within the purple or in the brown 14 area, either way, were to summon Kimble County, and they're 15 there quickly, as would probably be the case, if they wanted 16 to be transported to Sid Peterson, is that an option 17 available to them? 18 MR. BUDOW: Yes, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Even though Kimble 20 County makes the response? 21 MR. BUDOW: Yes, sir. The way I understand 22 it is, it's first and foremost the patient's choice. 23 Assuming that the patient can speak for themselves, as the 24 -- as the case may be. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, that's good. 11-8-04 87 1 Thank you for that answer. My only other -- my comment is, 2 I just wanted to be satisfied in all of this discussion that 3 those folks not represented directly by you in your 4 homeowners' association, one, knew about what's going on, 5 and two, to the best we could determine, are on board with 6 that change. I'm hearing nothing that indicates to the 7 contrary, so I'm in support of it. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have just two comments. 9 One -- and, I mean, I'm in favor of doing this; it's fine. 10 But, one, Mr. Budow looked at me several times when he 11 mentioned Mr. Cummings. Mr. Cummings -- I've never talked 12 to him about this issue. Just for your information, he's 13 not who I talked to. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Neither have I. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it doesn't make any 16 difference. And the other thing is really just a matter of 17 a term you used, that -- that we "objected" to it. You've 18 been here, six different objections. I don't view what we 19 did -- what I did, anyway, as objecting to it. I just want 20 to make sure that, one, it's done legally and properly 21 through a process with the City of Kerrville involved, 22 because they do handle the EMS for the county. And the 23 other part of it is that I just want to make sure that all 24 of the residents were told that we had an opportunity to 25 hear from all the residents. So -- and I -- I know you 11-8-04 88 1 probably feel like we've made you jump through an awful lot 2 of hoops in six meetings coming here, but I think every one 3 of those hoops is necessary to protect the citizens, and I 4 also think that it's necessary for to us protect -- work out 5 interlocal agreements. That's my only comment. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me understand where I am 7 on this. We had the two mutual aid agreements which we had 8 before us, and there was -- there was no objection to those. 9 Those are standard mutual aid, county-to-county; happen all 10 the time in law enforcement, emergency medical service, fire 11 protection, so forth. My understanding of exactly where we 12 are is that the City has taken the position that in order 13 for Kerr County to be in a position to authorize emergency 14 medical services for Kerr County residents in this far 15 northwest quadrant to be served by someone other than 16 Kerrville EMS, that we must have an amendment to our 17 existing EMS contract which Kerr County has with the City of 18 Kerrville. 19 MS. BAILEY: Your Honor, can I respond to 20 that? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I was going to ask you to 22 respond to that, Ms. Bailey, because am I correct in that 23 assumption? 24 MS. BAILEY: Not exactly. I think that it 25 would be more correct to say that Kerr County -- the 11-8-04 89 1 agreement that Kerrville has with Kerr County for provision 2 of EMS services obligates Kerrville EMS to provide services 3 everywhere in the county. It doesn't give us exclusive 4 rights, so you could authorize this agreement with Kimble 5 County without amending our contract. However, we still are 6 obligated -- we would still remain obligated under the 7 contract to go out there, so you'd end up with two sets 8 of -- of entities going out there. So, it makes more sense 9 to decide between us who's going to do -- who's going to do 10 which parts of the county so that we don't get double -- 11 overlap, because that's going to increase everyone's costs. 12 It increases your cost for the runs that have to be paid 13 for. It increases our costs. It increases the patient's 14 costs. It increases confusion. So, does that answer your 15 question? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: What I'm hearing is that, in a 17 practical and realistic manner, yes, that an amendment is 18 necessary in order that we designate someone other than 19 Kerrville EMS as the primary responder for -- 20 MS. BAILEY: Well, as the responder. We 21 still -- we would not -- Kerrville then would become a 22 non-responder in that area, with the exception that we have 23 an interlocal agreement ourselves with Kimble County, and if 24 we responded out there, we would be responding on behalf of 25 a request by Kimble County through our interlocal mutual aid 11-8-04 90 1 agreement, not under this contract. We would be 2 non-responding to that quadrant of the county that we're 3 eliminating from the contract. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: But the bottom line is, in 5 order that there not be overlap, confusion, duplication, and 6 unnecessary expense, we do need an amendment to the 7 Kerrville/Kerr County EMS agreement. 8 MS. BAILEY: Yes, that's correct. And 9 that's -- one other thing I wanted to mention is that we 10 have provided a draft of that agreement. Both Mr. Motley 11 and I have reviewed it in a cursory manner, but before you 12 put your signature on it, I'd like for -- for David and me 13 to be able to get together and make sure that we've got the 14 language exactly the way both parties think it needs to be. 15 It may not change at all; I just didn't want to you sign 16 what you had thinking that was something that we've both 17 signed off on. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, thank you. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to move 20 that we approve the making of an agreement between Kerr 21 County and Kimble County for the provision of EMS services 22 to a specific portion of northwest Kerr County, and that we 23 authorize the County Judge to sign that, and that we 24 authorize the County Judge to sign an amendment to the 25 contract between Kerr County and the City of Kerrville, and 11-8-04 91 1 both of those contingent upon the approval as to form by the 2 County Attorney. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 5 approval of the agenda item. Any further question or 6 discussion? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Question. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, sir? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The designated area 10 is that which is shown on the graphic in purple? Or 11 everything that's shown on the -- on that map? 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Everything that's 13 shown on the map. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Rectangular quadrant. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yes. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 18 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 19 your right hand. 20 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 22 (No response.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Thank 24 you, gentlemen. The next item on the agenda is a timed 25 item. Finally running behind. Item 15, consider and 11-8-04 92 1 discuss the status of the acquisition of the Juvenile 2 Detention Facility. Commissioner Letz? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I put this on the 4 agenda to kind of find out where we were, because as I read 5 through the letter we got from the Sheriff and your letter 6 that went to the trustee, there seemed to be a conflict in 7 that the portion -- the new portion which was going to be -- 8 or presented at our last meeting to be converted into a 9 jail-type facility under the Sheriff has fallen through, as 10 I understand it, and due to the -- I guess the offer made 11 was contingent on us being able to do that. Therefore, to 12 me, we need to get it back on the table as to what we're 13 going to do with the Juvenile Detention Facility, because 14 we're basically back where we were at our last meeting. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The interim agreement, 16 Commissioner, that I signed and forwarded to the trustee for 17 the bondholders, and which has now been executed by them, 18 incorporated the agreements that were approved by this Court 19 and the conditions that were approved by this Court. The -- 20 in response to looking into those matters, of course, the 21 Sheriff and Mr. Gondeck, who's here present today, met with 22 the Commission on Jail Standards, and that meeting resulted 23 in the letter that we got from the Sheriff. And it would 24 appear that the content of the Sheriff's letter indicates 25 that one of the conditions of our pursuit of the purchase 11-8-04 93 1 appears not to be viable. But I suppose that's also a 2 matter of interpretation, but that's kind of where we are; 3 you're exactly right. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, based on -- on 5 that, has the -- you know, the Juvenile Board talked about 6 this? Looked at this? Do they have a recommendation? I 7 mean, 'cause it's a -- drastically changes the County's 8 position, in my opinion. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The Juvenile Board has -- has 10 not met since this occurred. And I, in the meantime, did 11 ask Ms. Harris to -- as did you, I believe -- to rework and 12 recrunch and work on some additional numbers, and she has 13 some additional thoughts about other programs, which I think 14 probably are more appropriately under the next agenda item. 15 With respect to -- I don't know whether you prefer that I go 16 ahead and call it, and we just kind of roll them all 17 together. How do you want to do it? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's fine with me. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let me go ahead and 20 call Item 16 also to run concurrently with Item 15; that is, 21 consider and discuss the financial status and projections at 22 the Juvenile Detention Facility and consider any budget 23 amendments. Before we get too far into this, I might note 24 that we have a participation form that has been filed. 25 Mr. Larry Neal wishes to be heard on this item. Mr. Neal, 11-8-04 94 1 feel forward to -- feel free to come forward at this time. 2 MR. NEAL: Thank you, Judge Tinley. I'm 3 Larry Neal, vice president of Security State Bank, Pearsall, 4 Texas. First of all, I'd like to thank the Commissioners 5 and Judge Tinley for the opportunity to address y'all this 6 morning. I just wanted to bring one thing out this morning, 7 and be quite brief. My dad was a county official for 37 8 years. He served as County Clerk -- County Auditor of Frio 9 County. And one thing I learned from my father's teaching 10 was that the only thing that happened when you had a hot 11 temper was that you burned bridges. I would like to express 12 to the Court my admiration and applaud the Court for their 13 -- what they're trying to do here, and trying to find a 14 solution to a very, very difficult situation. We too find 15 ourselves in the same situation. We're trying to find 16 avenues and trying to find courses of action that could 17 alleviate the problem that we find ourselves with. But what 18 I would like to do is just express my appreciation to the 19 Court for their attention to this matter and their 20 consideration. A couple of you I was able to catch at the 21 last court meeting; a couple of you got away, but I would 22 like to express our appreciation for your consideration in 23 this matter. Thank you very much. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Mr. Neal. It's not 25 often we get kind words. We're appreciative of them any 11-8-04 95 1 time we can get them. We appreciate that. Ms. Harris, why 2 don't I let you come forward. And you, of course, have read 3 the Sheriff's report about -- 4 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the review of the Jail 6 Commission? 7 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: About the new portion of that 9 facility. What new and enlightening information do you have 10 for us today? 11 MS. HARRIS: Well, I have a copy for you 12 gentlemen. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what we need, 14 some more numbers. This is plan number 87? 15 MS. HARRIS: No, my plan, this would be 16 number two. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Two. 18 MS. HARRIS: Okay. As Commissioner Baldwin 19 has already astutely pointed out, that this looks very 20 similar to the one that I gave you before. Commissioner 21 Letz called me on Thursday and asked for me to see if I 22 could come up with any other more streamlined numbers -- 23 budget, and so I did so. If you'll notice on Page 1, I no 24 longer have the Q.C.C. position in the full-time position. 25 I had a very good meeting with Dr. Jaime Quintanilla, who is 11-8-04 96 1 a psychiatrist. His expertise is in adolescent psychiatry. 2 Had a visit with him on Thursday. He had come to me about a 3 month -- about a month ago, wanting to extend his services 4 to our facility in helping us to establish a residential 5 treatment facility, 'cause he had read in the paper about 6 the desire to put a substance abuse treatment facility in, 7 and that is his expertise. To make a long story short, he 8 has agreed to come to our facility on a contract basis, so 9 that's why you will see -- in the contract employees on the 10 first page, you will see Contract Psychiatrist. We have 11 talked about what his fees would be. 12 By bringing him on board, we would eliminate 13 the need for the contract psychologist that was on your 14 previous budget. As well, this gentleman can take care of 15 our suicide assessments. He can take care of our 16 psychotropic medication evaluations, which that billing 17 would be passed on to the placing counties. He can do the 18 oversight of the substance abuse treatment program, and he 19 can also do sex offender treatment. Now, sex offender 20 treatment would bring in even another population of 21 resident. We would take only male sex offender juveniles; 22 we would not take females. There is a much greater need for 23 sex offender treatment in males than there is in females. I 24 did some research through T.J.P.C. site, and there is a 25 great need for sex offender treatment, as well as substance 11-8-04 97 1 abuse treatment. There are facilities across the state that 2 offer sex offender programming, as well as substance abuse 3 programming, but it is not treatment. I can only find -- in 4 my research so far, I can only find one facility in the 5 state that offers sex offender treatment. There are several 6 that offer general programming, as well as Kerr County. We 7 -- we'd offer general sex offender programming. So, I 8 wanted to point out those changes. 9 There was a mistake on the first budget also 10 in regards to withholdings. Inadvertently, the 30 percent 11 withholdings included the contract employees. That's not 12 correct, so I made that adjustment on the first page as 13 well. That -- that 30 percent withholdings is only for your 14 full-time employees, so that changes that deficit. It's 15 still a deficit on that first building, but it changes it 16 dramatically. 'Cause I believe in your first one, I think 17 it was a $314,000 deficit, and it was reduced to $138,000 18 deficit for the one building. The two buildings, I didn't 19 change anything for your new building -- for the second 20 building, which shows a substantial deficit. Now, what 21 you're going to see on the third page is -- and I think 22 Commissioner Letz was wanting this information, about what 23 your daily expenses are for both buildings and daily 24 expenses for just the one building, and I have put that on 25 there that your daily expenses for one building, as it 11-8-04 98 1 stands, is $4,225 a day. Your break-even for that figure 2 would be 51 residents at $83 a day. If you increase the per 3 diem by $5 to $88 a day, it would take 48 residents to break 4 even. And then, if you increase that per diem to $90 a day, 5 which I do not recommend -- that's fairly risky 6 marketing-wise -- you would need 47. 7 Now, here comes my new figures and my second 8 proposal. One of my staff came up with an excellent idea 9 late Thursday afternoon before 5 o'clock, when we were able 10 to do some research. The new building could possibly be 11 turned into a nonsecure residential treatment facility for 12 substance abuse. It would qualify and have to be licensed 13 by the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory 14 Services. We contacted that department and ran this by 15 them, described the facility, described the physical 16 configuration of the facility. Of course, being nonsecure, 17 we'd have to take the locks off the doors, because it would 18 be residential treatment. The juveniles would still be 19 court-ordered there, but those types of juveniles qualify 20 for what is called IV-E federal funding. That federal money 21 is given to counties -- to placing counties to place those 22 individual kids. You can charge a higher per diem for those 23 kids, and I projected a $90-a-day per diem for those 24 kiddoes. They would be court-ordered for substance abuse 25 treatment, residential-type setting, which means they can 11-8-04 99 1 walk out if they want to. If they walk out, they violate 2 the court order; I call the Sheriff's Department, Sheriff's 3 Department picks them up and takes them over to the old 4 building in the detention side, so I get them either way. 5 (Laughter.) So -- so, that's how that works. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Double gotcha. 7 MS. HARRIS: So, there is a licensure 8 training in San Antonio tomorrow with Texas Department of 9 Protective and Regulatory Services. Because, I'll be honest 10 with you; that is not my expertise. I would have to write a 11 totally different policy and procedure manual. I can do 12 that. I do know how to do that. You have to have a 13 separate staff and a separate administrator. However, how 14 you get around that is I would merely name an existing 15 employee as administrator. I oversee it. I would still be 16 the overseeing administrator of everything. The food 17 service and the laundry service would have to be contracted 18 by ourselves. And I know that sounds kind of strange, but 19 how it would work is, since there's no kitchen in that new 20 building, the residential treatment facility would contract 21 with the postadjudication facility for the food service and 22 laundry service, 'cause you got to have a separate budget. 23 You got to have a separate line item budget for the 24 residential treatment, and then we would have a separate 25 line item budget for the long-term and the detention side, 11-8-04 100 1 which that's doable. It's a very doable thing. 2 I have explained in here, and I -- I tell you 3 once again, IV-E is not my expertise. This is information 4 that was gathered by phone calls that were made Thursday and 5 Friday, and I believe this is correct. And I know that 6 Kevin would be a bigger expert than I am, because he places 7 kids using IV-E money, but I believe that the counties get 8 approximately -- and Tommy may know this -- about 9 80 percent? Like, Kevin -- Kevin makes a projection of how 10 many kids he -- he sends using IV-E money. That IV-E money 11 comes to him at the beginning of every fiscal year, so he 12 has a pot of IV-E money that he uses to place those types of 13 juveniles in IV-E placements -- qualified placements, and 14 it's approximately 80 percent? Is that what he gets, of his 15 cost? Or does he get 100 percent? 16 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, the amount of money 17 we'll get for Title IV-E is based on expenditures. 18 MS. HARRIS: From the previous year. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: From the previous year. And 20 for Kerr County, it's about $80,000 a year. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much? 22 MS. HARRIS: $80,000. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: About $80,000. 24 MS. HARRIS: Counties -- placing counties 25 look for IV-E placements. I get several phone calls. I've 11-8-04 101 1 had several phone calls, "Do you take IV-E kids?" No, you 2 can't when you've got a lockdown, secure facility. You 3 cannot take IV-E kids. It has to be nonsecure in order for 4 you to qualify for that. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many like 6 facilities are there in the state of Texas, to your 7 knowledge? 8 MS. HARRIS: There's several. I don't have 9 an exact number, Commissioner Williams, but there are 10 several IV-E -- IV-E placements. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I have a couple 12 questions. 13 MS. HARRIS: Sure. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A lot has been said 15 in all of this discussion throughout that we have been 16 victimized by -- among other things, by the rate structure 17 that's imposed on us, or the per diem rate structure that's 18 imposed on us, I assume by the State of Texas. You're 19 projecting in this -- I think in previous projections, $83 a 20 day? 21 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: My question is, how 23 does that square with what we've been told about rate 24 reductions -- per diem rate reductions? And, secondly, how 25 does it square with other facilities against whom you would 11-8-04 102 1 be competing? 2 MR. HARRIS: It squares right in the median 3 in competing with other facilities. We're right in the 4 median. We are not charging too much, nor are we charging 5 too little, if -- if you want to look at it that way. The 6 lowest rate that I'm finding so far that's being charged by 7 other facilities similar to us is around $65 a day. And 8 there is no treatment involved; it is just general 9 corrections programming. Basic programming. As far as 10 squaring with the State, let me see if I can explain how 11 this works. The Legislature had budget cuts, asked every 12 state agency in the state to cut their budget by a certain 13 percentage. T.J.P.C. was no exception. So, T.J.P.C. had to 14 look at their budget and they had to decide where they were 15 going to cut. So, there were two programs that they stopped 16 the funding altogether, and the nature of those programs 17 slips my mind, because we never use those programs, nor were 18 we qualified to. So, their funding was totally cut off. 19 The other programs that were -- that their funding was 20 reduced, that was Level 5 funding was reduced, and Title 21 IV-E funding was reduced. 22 Now, Level 5 funding, the facility does not 23 see that reimbursement. And I think there's been some 24 confusion as to did the facility receive that reimbursement. 25 No, they never did. Facilities don't receive that 11-8-04 103 1 reimbursement. The placing counties are reimbursed. All 2 right. During the old classification system for juveniles, 3 there was what was called the Level 5 kid. That kid is 4 almost ready to go to T.Y.C., the Texas Youth Commission. 5 They're a hair from going to T.Y.C., but they are 6 court-ordered into facilities to give them one more chance 7 to see if you can turn them around. But they're a pretty 8 hard-core kid, and there is extensive criteria by which a 9 kid has to qualify to be classified as a Level 5. 10 Okay. So, a county has a Level 5 kid, so a 11 county looks for a facility that accepts Level 5's. We do. 12 Used to, you could charge the maximum amount that was 13 allowable by T.J.P.C. for those Level 5 kids. In the past, 14 it was approximately $115 per day for those Level 5 kids. 15 Okay. So, you could charge a different per diem for those 16 kids and you could get a higher price because the placing 17 county's going to get their money back. The placing county 18 is going to get that reimbursement. The facility's just 19 charging a per diem. Okay. What happened was, when 20 T.J.P.C. had to have budget cuts, they reduced the amount of 21 total money that was available to place Level 5 kids. That 22 went from $115 to approximately $106 a day. At the same 23 time -- at the same time this was occurring, we started 24 seeing a decrease in juvenile arrests. You had fewer Level 25 5 kids that were qualifying, because they were not being 11-8-04 104 1 arrested and not being adjudicated. So, you had all of this 2 happening at the same time. So, there's more beds out there 3 than there are kiddoes. So, to be competitive so you get a 4 piece of the pie, you reduce your per diem rate to be 5 competitive, and you offer the very best programming and 6 treatment that you possibly can for the money that you're 7 getting, and it's not a money-making situation. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, the reality is 9 that it was market forces that we experienced putting a 10 squeeze on our per diem revenue. 11 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As opposed to the 13 State taking money out of our mouths, so to speak. 14 MS. HARRIS: It went hand-in-hand. It went 15 hand-in-hand, because we would not be getting any kids if we 16 charged the $106 a day. We wouldn't be getting it, because 17 T.J.P.C. changed their classification system effective 18 September of '03. It's no longer Levels 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 19 and 6. It's what's called moderate, specialized, intensive; 20 it's a totally different classification system. So, what 21 used to be a Level 5 kid, they divided that criteria in 22 half, so you have a Level 4 moderate that only gets $80 a 23 day. They're only allowed $80 a day for that kid, and that 24 kid used to be a mild Level 5, but a Level 5 kid 25 irregardless. 11-8-04 105 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms. Harris? 2 MS. HARRIS: Yes? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many Kerr County 4 juveniles are in detention at that facility today? 5 MS. HARRIS: Detention? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many Kerr County 7 juveniles are in detention anywhere today? 8 MS. HARRIS: I couldn't answer your question 9 about which ones are in detention anywhere. As far as 10 detention is concerned, we have two in detention, which is 11 the pre kids. Long-term, postadjudication, we have one. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe I should direct 13 this question to the Judge. How many juveniles -- Kerr 14 County juveniles have -- have you presided over that are 15 going to facilities other than the Kerr County facility? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably the best response I 17 can give you, Commissioner, is several. But insofar as 18 being able to tell you right now how many are still in a 19 program outside of Kerr County, I can think of one offhand, 20 because it's recent, but -- well, I can think of another 21 one. Two come to mind, but there could be more than that. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, we're talking 23 about -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Assuming that those two are 25 still in those programs. 11-8-04 106 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So we're talking 2 about two -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Which we don't have here. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two here, and two 5 perhaps somewhere else. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, it could very well be 7 more than two somewhere else. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I guess what 9 I'm driving at, Judge, and Ms. Harris -- and, Sheriff, I'm 10 going to direct this to you, too -- is how many of our young 11 folk are in juvenile detention someplace? What is our 12 responsibility -- level of responsibility? I want the 13 Sheriff to answer my question. And the Sheriff -- I've had 14 discussions with him, so what I'm about to ask him is no 15 surprise. We've talked about it, and I know he has a 16 response, and I know what his response is going to be. 17 There's an old saw, I guess, Judge, that you don't ask a 18 question unless you know what the answer's going to be. I 19 know what the answer's going to be, but I think the record 20 should be -- should receive the answer too. When last we 21 spoke, Sheriff, you made, I would characterize, an 22 impassioned plea for a juvenile detention center in Kerr 23 County because, among other things, you believed that it was 24 a deterrent to juvenile crime. Now I'm learning, and my 25 colleagues are learning, we have two juveniles of our own in 11-8-04 107 1 detention, and perhaps two or maybe a couple more someplace 2 else, undefined. Would you please tell me and the Court why 3 your letter seems to indicate a 180-degree turn on that 4 particular topic? 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: On that particular 6 topic, as far as having a juvenile detention facility in 7 this county, my opinion has not changed. I honestly think 8 we do need one. I think it is a definite deterrent to 9 crime. Where I have changed, and also finding out part of 10 the question that you just asked the Judge, in talking to 11 one of our former judges, is our postadjudication kids 12 probably in the last six years that were from Kerr County, 13 we haven't sentenced maybe more than -- what I'm being told, 14 and this may not be totally accurate, we haven't sentenced 15 more than probably 10 to 12 in the last six years here -- to 16 here. That most of those postadjudication kids are getting 17 sent to other counties, simply because it's cheaper to send 18 them because of some of the reimbursement Kerr County gets, 19 same as what Becky was saying. You know, the sending county 20 gets reimbursed, okay? So, my understanding, it's been 21 cheaper to send our postadjudicated kids to other counties. 22 The biggest deal that I think we need here -- 23 and this just my professional opinion -- is a 24 preadjudication facility of up to 16, 24 kids. I'm 25 understanding that an average juvenile -- right now it's 11-8-04 108 1 low, with two. An average is probably six to eight Kerr 2 County preadjudication kids in the facility. So, expecting 3 future growth in that in Kerr County, or assisting with 4 local surrounding counties, like we do in the adult jail, I 5 would still recommend and I still strongly feel that you've 6 got to have a local juvenile facility, due to -- one is, if 7 you don't, same as my first proposal stated, you're going to 8 have more and more adults getting the kids to do the crimes 9 for them. This isn't unusual, but it's going to go up more, 10 because it's easier to talk that kid into doing it and 11 saying that, "Well, they're not going to pick you up; 12 there's no place to put you in this county." 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Another question, 14 Sheriff. Given that there are currently a couple Kerr 15 County juveniles in detention here, and a couple perhaps 16 elsewhere, how did you come to the conclusion that your 17 expenses with respect to juveniles, if we had no detention 18 facility, would be annualized and increased by about 19 $300,000? Can you enlighten us on that? 20 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The -- where we got that 21 is if there are 300 or 400 kids picked up locally, 22 preadjudication, that have to be transported if there is not 23 a local facility, okay? And what -- what the Family Code 24 states -- you know, I think we may be able to work some 25 agreements with the Juvenile Probation Department, but what 11-8-04 109 1 the Family Code states, it's actually the Sheriff's duty to 2 transport those kids to all activities. That is, once 3 they're picked up, preadjudication, within 48 hours -- when 4 they're picked up, even if they're picked up by City of 5 Kerrville, it would be the Sheriff's responsibility to take 6 that kid at 2 o'clock in the morning to wherever there is a 7 facility available to lock him up. Now, right now there's 8 one in Hondo, but I understand that's, like, a nine-bed 9 facility, and probably would be full instantly, and then 10 you're looking at San Angelo or even farther away than that. 11 That kid goes there, and then within 48 hours he has to be 12 brought back for his first detention hearing, so the 13 officer's got to go back up there and bring him back. And 14 the law actually states all activities involving that kid. 15 That could be medical stuff; that could be psychologicals. 16 It's all activities. It could be several court hearings. 17 If you have a bunch of kids that are being 18 held preadjudication in facilities around the state, because 19 some of them are closing and -- and some of them are going 20 to be crowded, then that could mean a lot of man hours on 21 the road transporting juveniles. Currently, the Juvenile 22 Probation Office has said that they would either contract or 23 help assist in doing that, transporting during daytime 24 hours. If it was nighttime, it's probably still going to 25 fall on my department to do. But, with what I'm 11-8-04 110 1 understanding now, with the number of kids that aren't being 2 put in -- you know, two right now, five to six -- it may not 3 be that big of an impact -- immediate impact. Could be 4 later; I don't know. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Hope that answers your 7 question. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question back to 10 Ms. Harris. I'm confused as to exactly how many residents 11 there are at each of the facilities. 12 MS. HARRIS: How many what? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Residents. The old 14 facility or the one building, that has 42, so it will hold 15 42? 16 MS. HARRIS: It will hold 48 now, because I 17 got permission from T.J.P.C. to open up that dorm that was 18 not utilized. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In the old -- 20 MS. HARRIS: Old building can house 48. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Old, 48, okay. And the 22 new will house what? 23 MS. HARRIS: 24. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 24? 25 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 11-8-04 111 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: When I look at Page 4, 2 under the Both Building proposal -- 3 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- it's based on 49. On 5 the revenue side, 49 times 83. 6 MS. HARRIS: 'Cause it would be 42 kids in 7 the old building and 14 in the old building -- I mean in the 8 new building, I believe is what I did. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my question was, 10 why wouldn't we have more than -- if it's 42 and 14, why 11 wouldn't it be -- I mean, is it just because -- 12 MS. HARRIS: Because that's not realistic. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, you discounted 14 it based on occupancy, basically? 15 MS. HARRIS: Right, that's correct. That's 16 correct. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you feel that -- I 18 mean, basically -- well -- 19 MR. HARRIS: 35 kids in the old building that 20 would be post and pre -- or, excuse me, that would be post. 21 And then 14 kids in the new building would be pre, if you 22 don't do the nonsecure residential treatment thing. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right now, if you do the 24 nonsecure residential -- 25 MS. HARRIS: That's on the -- that's on that 11-8-04 112 1 last page. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But there you can 3 increase the occupancy? 4 MS. HARRIS: Yes, I can increase the 5 occupancy. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To 42 and 24? 7 MS. HARRIS: Yes, 42 kids in the -- which 8 would be pre and post combined in the old building, and then 9 24 residential treatment kids in the new building, so you 10 increase it to 68 total kids. And, remember, you can charge 11 more money for those residential treatment kids; charge $7 a 12 day more. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But you didn't -- it 14 doesn't appear that you've put a risk factor for occupancy 15 in the -- in the 42 and 24 number. 16 MS. HARRIS: 'Cause I don't believe it would 17 be one. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can keep it that 19 full? 20 MS. HARRIS: The 24 kids in that -- in the 21 nonsecure residential treatment I think is a very realistic 22 number. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You believe that the 24 demand is out there? 25 MR. HARRIS: Yes. Yes, sir. 11-8-04 113 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Speaking of demand, 2 Ms. Harris, you say on the nonsecure substance abuse, you 3 can charge -- did you say $7 more per day? 4 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: You mentioned a little bit ago 6 on the sex offender treatment program -- 7 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Did I hear you indicate there 9 was only one facility in the state actually capable of 10 offering that now? 11 MR. HARRIS: From my research that I have 12 found so far, yes, sir. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: And is that program at that 14 facility full to capacity? 15 MR. HARRIS: Yes, they are. They have a 16 waiting list. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Significant waiting list? 18 MR. HARRIS: I couldn't tell you that, sir. 19 I just know that they have a waiting list. I don't know how 20 large it is. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there additional revenue 22 available over and above the standard rate for the sex 23 offender treatment program? 24 MS. HARRIS: Not that I'm aware of, no. Not 25 that I'm aware of. 11-8-04 114 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess kind of where I 2 am is that, I mean, we're in a -- I'm probably -- I'm 3 looking back at Mr. Spurgeon now; he's about to be the focus 4 of my question. We're in a situation that we have -- I 5 mean, from a debt standpoint, we've combined the facilities, 6 and from an operating standpoint, it doesn't look like we 7 can really continue going forward on a combined facility, 8 because none of the numbers that we looked at or discussed 9 include any kind of debt service. So, we're losing money, 10 plus we're losing -- I mean, plus paying for it. So, I 11 mean, there's a pretty big loss. Is there any way that we 12 can go to the bondholders and just say we can't do this deal 13 the way it is, but we would be willing to do part of it? 14 And -- you know, or work out some kind of a -- a way that we 15 could continue to operate. Because, I mean, I don't see -- 16 it looks real bleak to me, going forward on what I'm seeing. 17 Yet I think there is a chance to help the county and help 18 the bondholders some. I think everyone from the last 19 meeting knows that if we just don't appropriate and we say 20 turn it back to the trustee, that one of the -- well, the 21 bondholders probably will get nothing, and I think that's a 22 very unfortunate situation when there is a value to the 23 County to keep at least part of this facility operating. 24 So, did that confuse you enough? 25 MR. SPURGEON: No, I don't think it did. I 11-8-04 115 1 don't think it did at all. And I think the answer to the 2 question is, gentlemen -- and it may seem a little bit 3 contrary to answer that I think I give Commissioner 4 Williams, but it's -- I think Commissioner Williams asked -- 5 or maybe it was Commissioner Baldwin asked about the ability 6 of the County to purchase it for less than the outstanding 7 principal amount of the debt. My answer to them was I don't 8 think that's advisable, because you can open yourself up to 9 potential litigation with bondholders and those kind of 10 things if you -- if you turn it over to the trustee and then 11 you kind of put in a bid for it and those kind of things. 12 But I think where you're going -- I think the way I'd answer 13 your question is, if you come together with the bondholders, 14 with the agreement of the bondholders, that instead of maybe 15 buying it for 100 cents on the dollar, but for something 16 less than that, and that the bondholders are agreeable to 17 that, then you're fine. So long as you've got 100 percent 18 of your bondholder approval, I think you can do that. 19 I was more concerned about a situation where 20 you sort of deliberately go into default, then you would 21 make some sort of an offer that would be -- essentially not 22 have bondholder consent. But if the bondholders would come 23 together to you and say, "Look, we're willing to work 24 something out; we understand the sort of financial 25 difficulties, that the County's having a tough time 11-8-04 116 1 justifying doing it on these terms," if -- if the 2 bondholders are willing to come to the County and say, 3 "Let's talk," then I think that's something that would work, 4 just like in any kind of a contract. Which, essentially, 5 you have a contract with the bondholders. If the two 6 parties agree to amending that contract, you're able to do 7 that. And it's through your bondholders -- they are the 8 ones that are your other contracting party. The trustee 9 will go along with whatever the bondholders tell them to go 10 along with, so it's really your bondholders that are -- will 11 be the most important part of the -- of some sort of an 12 arrangement like that. I'm not sure if I answered your 13 question. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You did. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do we know how many 16 bondholders we have? 17 MR. SPURGEON: We have -- we've identified 18 them all, and I actually -- frankly, I forgot to count 19 number-wise, but I think we have roughly 15. We know where 20 all of them are, we know who they are, we know who to 21 contact. So, the good news about that is that that's a 22 relatively small number, and they're all identified. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Go ahead. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. I stand 11-8-04 117 1 amazed at what I've heard here today. We've talked about 65 2 possible juveniles housed out there. We've talked about 3 sexual offenders. We've talked about alcohol and drug 4 programs, and that for someone to be trained in that, the -- 5 the very last and only school is tomorrow, so, you know, the 6 sky's going to fall in on us again. But I'm going to tell 7 you, I voted last meeting to approve this agreement to do 8 C.O.'s, and it was strictly based on it going to be half a 9 juvenile facility and half an adult jail, and that's not 10 even on the table today. For some reason, this thing has 11 disappeared off into the sunset again, and -- and I'm -- 12 you're going to have a hard time getting me to vote for a 13 damn thing from this point on. I mean, it's gotten to the 14 point where we don't know how this thing was caused, who 15 caused it. Did the State's funding change really cost us 16 220,000, or did it cost us nothing? I mean, nobody knows 17 anything. We've agreed to do -- to buy the dad-gum thing 18 with half jail and half juveniles. Now, for some reason, 19 how did we get by that? I mean, just to -- one fell swoop, 20 that -- the whole thing was gone, and I'm going to tell you, 21 my vote was based strictly on that, not on 65 -- 68 kids and 22 sexual treatment and alcohol treatment. Had nothing to do 23 with it. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I guess the 25 answer to your question partly is in the Sheriff's letter. 11-8-04 118 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The Sheriff says we 2 can't do it any more, and in our agreement it says the 3 County receives a written certification from the Texas 4 Commission on Jail Standards that the newly constructed 5 building project can be modified at a reasonable cost. That 6 is not a reasonable cost, in my mind. The deal's over. 7 It's over, in my mind. It's over. I mean, there's no 8 reason to talk about a kid receiving any kind of treatment 9 or an adult person receiving any kind of treatment. The 10 deal is over, in my opinion. That's not directed -- that's 11 not a question to anybody. That's a statement of where I'm 12 at. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree that the -- the 14 offer we made to the trustee is dead. That thing might as 15 well be thrown in the garbage can, because those conditions 16 aren't -- you know, has changed. And unless there's a -- a 17 very realistic way for something to work out there, you 18 know, I agree, I can't go forward either. I'm just not 19 willing to shut the door and not look at other proposals 20 still. There are -- but I think trying to make a decision 21 at a very -- in a rushed fashion -- and this isn't a 22 criticism of Ms. Harris at all, but she's trying to scramble 23 and figure out how to keep the facility filled up, which is 24 the only way to make anywhere close to breaking even. But 25 there's so many what-ifs in -- in that line of -- of 11-8-04 119 1 decision making at this point that, to me, you know, it's in 2 the court of the bondholders, and for them to come to us and 3 say, "We're willing to talk." Because without some relief, 4 I just don't think it's going to work. And that's -- you 5 know, and we have a bondholder here, or a representative of 6 a bondholder, and I know we have a gentleman that sold some 7 of the bonds here. But that's just kind of -- you know, it 8 doesn't work financially for the County, and it's 9 unfortunate. It's unfortunate that we can't separate them 10 and have a little juvenile detention facility, but the way 11 the bond and debt structure is, we can't do -- it's all or 12 nothing right now, and all doesn't work. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your point's valid. 14 And I understand Commissioner Baldwin's frustration; I think 15 we're all frustrated. But the Sheriff's letter really 16 brings us back to square one. And I think the point 17 Commissioner Letz is trying to make by asking the question 18 of Mr. Spurgeon and -- and Mr. Henderson, although he hasn't 19 spoken yet, is valid. But I think we need -- and we need to 20 find out an answer, if possible, to that. I think we can't 21 do all this in one week or one hour. But if we don't do the 22 deal as we thought we were going to, and if the costs to 23 rehabilitate the portion of the facility that was going to 24 be allocated to adult detention is prohibitive, it is 25 prohibitive for a reason, and it is because the Commission 11-8-04 120 1 on Jail Standards set some standards that we didn't know and 2 we have to follow; otherwise, we can't be certified and it 3 n't be utilized, and the expense to do that is going to be 4 greater than we anticipated. However, let's not lose sight 5 of the fact that we know, and the Sheriff knows that we 6 know, that it's only a matter of time before he's going to 7 come in here and ask for a new facility or an expansion of 8 his facility. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: About a minute and a 10 half. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: As a matter of fact, 12 he's probably poised -- as soon as I get done, he's going to 13 ask for it. And so, to do that, then he's going to be 14 looking to the Court to fund another facility at the current 15 building cost, plus whatever the additional costs of 16 construction would be 18 to 24 months hence, and that gets 17 us back to square one again. Does this facility make sense 18 at a reduced cost, as opposed to the current cost? And how 19 does that square with the Sheriff's intent to seek an 20 expansion of his current facility? All that, we have to 21 come to grips with. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: We -- as Commissioner Williams 23 said, we haven't heard from Mr. Henderson. My -- my 24 understanding was that you had to be somewhere later on this 25 afternoon, Mr. Henderson, and I want to give you an 11-8-04 121 1 opportunity to be heard before we recess for lunch. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm sure Mr. Henderson is 3 glad to have that opportunity. 4 MR. HENDERSON: Good morning, still -- or 5 maybe not quite. I did have a conversation last -- late 6 last week with the Sheriff, and had come to understand some 7 facts, as y'all did, that things weren't -- weren't 8 everything that we had hoped they could be. I think the 9 most concerning fact to me was not only that it was going to 10 cost substantially more to convert that second building to 11 an adult facility, because I will tell you, in my mind, the 12 amount of money we're talking about is not really all that 13 significant. I mean, you don't take lightly half a million 14 dollars anywhere, but, you know, that's not something that 15 I -- that I felt like, you know, was an unsurmountable 16 difficulty. What I was more concerned about after visiting 17 with the Sheriff was that what we had understood when the 18 Commissioners Court last met and reached the decision that 19 Commissioner Baldwin referenced, was that that facility was 20 going to be able to house 48 adults, and that was going to 21 free up substantially more beds in the Sheriff's existing 22 facility, which had some direct revenue-creating 23 opportunities because of the ability to then lease out beds 24 for adults from other jurisdictions and offset the operating 25 losses that Ms. Harris was projecting on the juvenile side. 11-8-04 122 1 So, what -- what I've learned, and I think 2 what the Sheriff's letter indicates, is that in addition to 3 costing more to -- to renovate the facility than was 4 anticipated, what we would be looking at is actually only 24 5 beds at that facility, as opposed to 48. We'd lose the 6 revenue-generating capacity of that, and they're minimum 7 security prisoners instead of maximum security prisoners. I 8 have not had the opportunity to visit with Ms. Harris or 9 review any of the numbers that she submitted to the Court 10 today. She's been very cooperative; I'm sure that she will 11 -- she and I will have the opportunity to come to those 12 discussions. I think what we need to do, in keeping with 13 Mr. Spurgeon's analysis and advice, is to go back to the 14 Sheriff and go back to Ms. Harris, and in light of 15 Ms. Harris' new revenue projections and in light of the 16 reduced number of adult detainees that can be held in a 17 second -- in the second building, adjust the revenue figures 18 on the Sheriff's side, if, in fact, they can be adjusted. 19 And I'm a little concerned, from my 20 conversation with the Sheriff, about the capacity issues 21 that there -- you know, there may not be. We may find 22 ourselves in a situation to where the revenues generated off 23 the -- off a reduced number of prisoners in the second 24 building to 24 may not cover his own operating costs, let 25 alone contribute something towards the operating deficits on 11-8-04 123 1 the juvenile side. However, I think all that work has to be 2 done. And I say that because, if we were to follow up on 3 Commissioner Letz' suggestion, which -- which Commissioner 4 Williams and Commissioner Baldwin had raised at previous 5 meetings, I don't know how we're going to be able to sit 6 down with the bondholders and talk about a number that -- 7 that covers that delta without having gone through that 8 exercise first. Because, obviously, the first question that 9 the bondholders are going to ask is, "What are we talking 10 about? 90 cents on the dollar? 50 cents on the dollar? 11 What's it going to take to make the numbers work?" 12 And -- and, again, I know, Ms. Harris has 13 submitted numbers to you gentlemen. I haven't had a chance 14 to review those or discuss the operating cost aspects of 15 this with the Sheriff. I think we need to do that so that 16 when the bondholders ask that question, we can tell them, 17 "90 cents won't work. Maybe 75 cents will work." Or -- you 18 know, I don't know. As the Judge indicated, we just -- we 19 have to do a little bit more work. As a practical matter, 20 the Commissioners Court has already passed the extension to 21 the operating agreement, the juvenile facility, to keep it 22 open -- operating till December 31st. As Commissioner 23 Baldwin has pointed out, at least one of those conditions 24 clearly cannot be met. We still are obligated under that 25 lease to give the trustee some period of notice -- is it 15 11-8-04 124 1 or 30? 2 MR. SPURGEON: 30 days. 3 MR. HENDERSON: 30 days, so we're obligated 4 at this point -- 30 days from today, we're obligated to this 5 point well into the first week of December, anyway. So, I 6 think what we need to do is -- is start -- as Commissioner 7 Williams said, we're back to square one. We're going to 8 have to start crunching the numbers from square one again. 9 I'm -- I know that's not much of an answer. It's really 10 more of an explanation, I think, as to where we go. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, Bob, you know, I 12 try to -- I try to bring everything down to real common 13 sense like my daddy taught me to do, and this thing that Jon 14 keeps talking about of -- of dealing with the bondholders 15 and, you know, these offers and all, I think it's up to the 16 bondholders to come to us, or to -- it's -- you know, far as 17 I'm concerned, we can throw this thing in the trash, and 18 it's over. I mean, seriously, it's over, far as I'm 19 concerned. Now, if the bondholders want to do something new 20 and different, y'all sit down and talk about it -- sit down 21 with our lawyers and talk about it. Otherwise, it's over. 22 MR. HENDERSON: Well, I understand where 23 you're coming from, Commissioner, and I -- I appreciate your 24 frustration and your wanting to get to the bottom line. But 25 we need to do the work for our own use as well, because if 11-8-04 125 1 the bondholders come to us and say, "We'll let you have this 2 for 60 cents on the dollar, we still have to do this work to 3 know if 60 cents on the dollar works or 75 cents on the 4 dollar works or 50 cents on the dollar works. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This could go on 6 forever. 7 MR. HENDERSON: Yeah, I -- I respect your 8 frustration. But -- but some of this additional work's 9 going to have to be done, just for our team to know how to 10 respond to whatever bond offer -- whatever offer the 11 bondholders might make. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does it seem logical 13 to you, Mr. Henderson, that any tender offer that might be 14 made to the bondholders less than 100 cents on the dollar 15 could include both a break-even on operations as well as 16 debt service? Do you see that as a potential? Because 17 that's part and parcel of this whole thing. Funding the -- 18 funding a deficit operation is one thing. Funding a deficit 19 operation and debt service is quite another. 20 MR. HENDERSON: Well, Commissioner, I would 21 say this. Just listening to Ms. Harris' presentation, she 22 talked about the $314,000 operating -- operating deficit for 23 the original larger building being reduced to $138,000. I 24 need to get into this IV-E thing that -- that I understand, 25 you know, opens up a whole new avenue of issues. But even 11-8-04 126 1 at $138,000, clearly, you know, that's not covering debt 2 service, so I don't think that it's going to be reasonable 3 to expect that any configuration Commissioners Court decides 4 to pursue is going to break even when you consider operating 5 and capital. Clearly, those numbers aren't going to be 6 there. 7 So, I think what you -- what the 8 Commissioners Court is faced with is the comments that the 9 Sheriff made at our last meeting, the comments that the 10 Judge made at our last meeting about how reasonable is it to 11 expect certain governmental services to be cost-effective or 12 break-even, and what other value do the citizens of Kerr 13 County get from having this, you know, viable, operating 14 juvenile facility here? And how much is that worth to the 15 Commissioners Court and to the citizens of the county? But 16 it seems, unfortunately, clear that -- that if the -- if the 17 bondholders were to give you this facility for free, you're 18 not going to be able to operate it at a break-even cost. 19 Now, that -- obviously, that does not mean that the facility 20 doesn't have value. It does have value, and in terms of the 21 real estate and the physical plant out there, it has value. 22 The -- the intrinsic value to the citizens of Kerr County is 23 something I leave to the elected officials to decide. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mr. Henderson, I mean, 25 I -- you know, I agree with what you said, and I don't think 11-8-04 127 1 that -- I don't have an expectation of that facility being 2 able to break even, including paying the debt service. You 3 know, I understand that it is a cost to the County to house 4 our juveniles. And, you know, I think the decision we have 5 to wrestle with is, how much is that cost? And, based on 6 the numbers that we currently have -- historically have of 7 housing juveniles, it's -- that cost is to ship them out of 8 county versus keep that facility open. Right now, we're at 9 about $600,000 to keep the facility here, it's going to cost 10 us a year. 11 MR. HENDERSON: Including debt service. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Including debt service. 13 But it's all one number; it's still tax dollars. I don't 14 care if it's debt service or tax dollars; it's still tax 15 money. So -- and if we can house them out of county for 16 $300,000, that's a no-brainer; we go out of county. I'm 17 sorry, you know. But if it gets to be within -- that total 18 number within 100,000, it becomes a lot more -- okay, 19 there's an intrinsic value to the County. Right now, to me, 20 that gap is too big. It has to be narrowed. 21 MR. HENDERSON: I would make two points. One 22 is -- and I know that Commissioner Baldwin's going to 23 appreciate this. One is -- is that, you know, our numbers 24 very dramatically changed from the last time we met with 25 this Court. Not only do we have the costs of renovating the 11-8-04 128 1 facility to an adult facility increasing, we've got the 2 revenue number from that operation decreasing dramatically 3 as a result of the reduction in the number of beds. And, 4 you know, the basic premise of how much it's going to cost 5 the County to transport juvies on a preadjudicated basis out 6 of the county has been called into question. So, there's 7 three significant numbers that have changed. And I -- I 8 respect his frustration with that. I feel frustrated 9 myself. On the other hand, I would point out that, based on 10 the information that we had at the last meeting, the 11 Commissioners Court did proactively make the decision to 12 keep the facility open, with the understanding that we were 13 going to not break even on the facility, but, in fact, pay 14 debt service of about $410,000 per year, and have an 15 operating deficit of another $150,000. So, I think when you 16 took action a week ago, if one were to make an attempt to 17 quantify your decision, the decision was that the County was 18 prepared to spend $550,000, $600,000 on -- on the facility. 19 Those costs do appear to be low at this -- at this point. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But there's a difference. 21 That was also deferring the cost of a new jail. 22 MR. HENDERSON: That is correct. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's a big difference 24 in those, even though -- so, anyway, to me -- I mean, you 25 know, from my standpoint, we're done for the day. I mean, I 11-8-04 129 1 don't know what the rest of the Court feels like on this 2 issue. Because I don't see that we have any more 3 information. And the powers that be, whether it's the 4 Juvenile Board, Ms. Harris, bondholders, y'all have got 5 three weeks to come up with a proposal before the 1st of 6 December; otherwise, it's being shut down. 7 MR. HENDERSON: Let me point out -- I 8 probably need to defer to Mr. Spurgeon here. The agreement 9 is that you give them 30 days notice, so it's really not 10 even 30 days from today, I don't think. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. That's what I'm 12 saying; you have until the 1st of December. 13 MR. HENDERSON: No, what I'm saying is -- is 14 that, you know, if you gave them 30 days notice today, it 15 would be December the 8th, and -- and you probably don't 16 want to give them 30 days notice until you've made a 17 definitive decision and we're done. If y'all are going to 18 vote today that you're done, I guess what you're doing is 19 voting to give them 30 days notice. I'm not sure that's 20 even on the agenda. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What I'm saying is, by 22 December 1st, if we don't have a valid proposal -- 23 MR. HENDERSON: I see what you're saying, 24 Commissioner. Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- by December 1st -- 11-8-04 130 1 MR. HENDERSON: We give them 30 days notice 2 December 1st. I follow what you're saying. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's an 4 automatic -- I think the agreement says we agree to continue 5 it through December 31st. 6 MR. HENDERSON: Unless you vote to extend. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And we give 30-day 8 notice to the contrary if something else -- we want to break 9 it off earlier than that. So, I think you're right; we got 10 till the end of the year to get this thing to a point where 11 we can make a decision -- no, we got till early December to 12 make that point. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I want -- I'm not 14 going to delay this; I just haven't spoken. I wanted to 15 give other members of the Court the benefit of my thinking 16 on it. One, I'm in agreement with Commissioner Baldwin that 17 the contract -- or the proposal we have is voidable, and 18 unless things change, I would also vote to void it. The 19 second thing is that having a juvenile detention facility in 20 Kerr County is on my wish list, as are some other things, 21 but it -- it would not make the cut at over half a million 22 dollar-a-year cost to Kerr County. That's all. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: May I make a couple more 24 comments about some other checking that I had done into the 25 adult part of it, and just like Commissioner Williams said a 11-8-04 131 1 while ago? Last Thursday, our adult population in our jail 2 was 171. 80 percent is 153, so we are over that, although 3 we are still able to classify. Last Thursday, our female 4 population was 28; maximum beds is 32. We were still at the 5 same, okay? I even noticed in today's Daily Times an 6 article about female incarceration since 1995 has gone up 7 48 percent nationwide, so I think we're seeing that on the 8 rise, as most other counties are. I did some checking into 9 that current -- the new facility out there. My 10 understanding, on it alone, it's about -- and the 11 bondholders may listen to this -- it's about 2.6 million 12 owed on it. To turn it into just a minimum security 24-bed 13 adult facility, you'd have to upgrade the evacuation system, 14 which Mr. Gondeck can -- can attest to, for at least 15 100,000, so that would be 2.7 million on that one facility 16 to make it a 24-bed minimum security adult facility. And 17 then you still have the 12 employees that you're going to 18 have to put over there and the rest of the operating costs 19 year-to-year. 20 In doing some checking, I had, as of Friday, 21 another architectural firm, same one that built the current 22 jail, put some figures together for me. For an addition of 23 51 beds -- it would be 48, plus 3 separation cells on the 24 current facility today, 'cause it was designed to where you 25 could add onto it. Construction costs, contingencies, and 11-8-04 132 1 other fees -- it includes furnishings in the cells -- would 2 be 2.7 million as of today's prices. Now, Mr. Gondeck's 3 doing a 48-bed addition to another jail at this time that is 4 almost a million less than that. I do not see -- and that's 5 why -- one of the main reasons I wrote the letter I did to 6 y'all. I do not see any way that this would be feasible for 7 an adult facility. 8 And my other line goes back -- now that I've 9 learned a little bit more, even about the juveniles, is 10 we're housing maybe five or six at any one time of our own 11 kids in Kerr County. All the other kids are being housed 12 out, so all we're talking about doing is bringing in, 13 whether it be sex offender, substance abuse kids or 14 whatever, from other counties to keep this one open, and I'm 15 against that. And Becky knows that. It's not a popular 16 deal; I may not be well liked because of it, but I think the 17 County needs to take care of their own. I think I can 18 either transport, tell the smaller facility to house Kerr 19 County kids, and build -- and I think you could build that 20 smaller facility and build the addition onto the jail on the 21 current 17-acre property that the jail is sitting on now for 22 a lot less than this indebtedness is going to be, than is 23 owed on that facility. And, personally, as the Sheriff and 24 as a taxpayer, I think it's totally wrong to even carry this 25 on any farther than it is. There's employees strung out out 11-8-04 133 1 there wondering what's going to happen to them. Thank you. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe we've pretty well 3 wrung that one out. Commissioner Letz, on the last item on 4 the agenda -- we may have another item to come back to; I'm 5 getting all sorts of signals back here. What is this? You 6 know, that used to be a poker game we used to play; remember 7 how you do like that? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Looks like the hungry 9 goat signal. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Part of that -- that item had 11 something to do with an amendment. I believe that -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Budget amendment. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Yes, on 16. 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure does. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: Since -- since the Court 17 approved an extension agreement, my question is, did -- does 18 that automatically assume that -- that the Court will fund 19 the expenses up until that date? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: With a particular 21 dollar amount? Or are you just saying you go out there and 22 spend anything you want? 23 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, any ordinary expenses. 24 I mean, I'm talking about daily operating expenses and 25 payroll. 11-8-04 134 1 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a two-prong agreement. 2 One was the extension of the lease and operating agreement. 3 The other was notice of intent to acquire based on certain 4 conditions. While the notice of intent to acquire may be 5 somewhat spongy right now, it -- we're still obligated on 6 the first part. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: But there's -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: If we need to take some action 9 and transfer some funds here, I guess that's what we need to 10 hear from you. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: That's right, and that's my 12 question. I mean, do -- do we need -- do we need to get 13 specific approval every time? Or is this -- is this 14 something that we can -- can do as needed until -- until the 15 end of the extension agreement? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it needs to be 17 handled like any other department that the County funds. We 18 need to have line items, the money go into those. We can do 19 it all in one meeting, but I think it needs to be trackable 20 very easily for this Court. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I think, as Commissioner Letz 22 indicated earlier in the meeting, you set it up in your 23 accounting, just as you do for virtually any department. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, my problem -- my 25 problem is that -- I mean, I can define today what -- what 11-8-04 135 1 the expenses are today, but I don't know what the expenses 2 are going to be on the 15th. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What? 4 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't know what the 5 expenses are going to be on the 15th. I'm talking about the 6 payroll. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we -- 8 MR. TOMLINSON: I can't give you a definitive 9 answer as to how much I need to -- we need to transfer for 10 that payroll. We're not going to meet until after the 15th. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, but couldn't we 12 -- I don't know why we couldn't put, you know, enough 13 money -- we know about how much it's going to be for all 14 those items based on historical -- 15 MR. TOMLINSON: I could give you a good 16 estimate. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we put that 18 amount in each line item to get us to our next meeting, and 19 then we look at it again. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, in any event, 21 we've got what's incurred, and up to our next meeting -- 22 we've got another five weeks, in any event. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: More than that. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, it would be 11-8-04 136 1 more than that -- seven. That we're obligated by Article 2 II, expenses to cover. That's what this agreement says, and 3 I think the Judge says it's been signed, so I guess we -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think -- I mean, to 6 me, I don't know if you can -- maybe you can't. I don't 7 know if you can -- how quickly you can get that done, but by 8 our next meeting, I'd like to see it like every other 9 department. We can put -- you know, we can make the best 10 educated guess that you have or you can come up with, with 11 Ms. Harris' input, as to how much to put in each line item; 12 we approve that, because I'm very uncomfortable saying, yes, 13 we're going to pay everything out there. I mean, I want to 14 know exactly how much money we're putting into each item. 15 MR. TOMLINSON: I can give you a -- a close 16 estimate today of -- of what we'll need before -- or by the 17 15th of this month, or this payroll. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you have it at 19 1 o'clock? 20 MR. TOMLINSON: I have it right now. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're coming back at 23 1:00? 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I could be home on 25 my tractor by 1:00. 11-8-04 137 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I hope we're coming 2 back at 1:30. 3 MR. TOMLINSON: I can't give it to you by 4 line item specifically. I mean, because -- I mean, 5 there's -- there's 12 different line items associated with 6 payroll. But I can't give you exact -- I mean, I haven't -- 7 I can tell you about -- approximately how much the payroll 8 is, and -- and I know exactly what the bills were today. 9 And I -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ms. Harris raised her 11 hand. 12 MR. HARRIS: You do need to be aware of the 13 fact that when this comes out, that everything is up in the 14 air, so forth and so on. I've already had several people 15 quit, and I will have more. I've already got a couple right 16 now that are teetering, waiting to see what happens today. 17 I can't hire any full-time people. Don't intend to hire any 18 full-time people, because I can't tell them that they're 19 going to have a job in 30 days, and I do not have any 20 part-time people on the payroll except for one individual, 21 and I'm not getting very much of a response to 22 advertisements in order to fill that. So, what I'm telling 23 you is that there's going to be a day very soon that I will 24 be out of ratio, because I won't have the staff. And I've 25 already got the men working 12-hour shifts now in order to 11-8-04 138 1 have proper ratio, so there's going to come a time, probably 2 pretty soon, that I will not be able to maintain ratio, and 3 I will have to get an emergency variance from T.J.P.C. to 4 use his deputies. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sounds like we're 7 damned if we do and damned if we don't. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me make an inquiry. She's 9 in a tremendous predicament out there. She's hung on a 10 tether hook. On the next item, that's going to take us a 11 bit. Do you see -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I -- 15 minutes, 20 13 minutes, something like that. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: What's the preference? That 15 we just blow forward, or that we go ahead and recess for 16 lunch and come back at 1:30? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No difference to me. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd like to make a 19 comment about the other open item. I'm -- I, for one, am 20 not ready to talk about putting a roof on that thing till we 21 dispose of this stuff. So, coming back with -- Maintenance 22 Department coming back with recommendations as to roof and 23 air conditioning a building, I'm not ready for that. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He was talking about -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know what he was 11-8-04 139 1 talking about, but this is another open item on the agenda. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One thing about it also, 4 Mr. Gondeck was kind enough to drive up here from San 5 Antonio with blueprints of that juvenile facility, if any of 6 y'all had questions of him, since he was the architect. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought Wayne just 8 wanted to come look at us. 9 MR. GONDECK: I just enjoy listening to 10 everything. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I bet you do. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate your interest, 13 Mr. Gondeck. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it's going back to 15 the Auditor's request. I mean, clearly, we have to do some 16 kind of budget amendment to get some money -- what -- how 17 much do you need to get us through the 15th, based on your 18 best estimate? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: Well -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or up to our next 21 meeting, actually. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, there -- there won't be 23 any more expenses until the next meeting except for payroll. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 25 MR. TOMLINSON: So, today's bills total 11-8-04 140 1 23,800. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: 23,8. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 23,8. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 7 MR. TOMLINSON: The payroll, if the payroll 8 is the same as the last payroll, was 58,000. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: 81,8. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: So, we have -- we have 11 approximately $12,000 in cash today. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 69,000. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: So, 70,000 would -- we 14 have -- and we have -- we do have 58,000 and change in 15 receivables uncollected. So, to make sure that we make the 16 15th's payroll, I think we need to do -- I think we need to 17 transfer at least 70,000. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 70. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I make a motion we 20 declare an emergency and transfer -- or allocate $70,000 to 21 fund operations of the Juvenile Detention Facility through 22 our next court meeting. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to 25 declare an emergency and authorize transfer of $70,000 from 11-8-04 141 1 reserves to fund the operational requirements of the 2 Juvenile Detention Facility through -- to -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Our next court meeting. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: -- 11-22-04. Any question or 5 discussion? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would like to see 7 about -- I guess around December the 1st sometime, I'd like 8 to see a total of the amount of money that the County 9 taxpayers have put into this thing, like this today, please. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's going to be 11 revealing. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 13 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 14 your right hand. 15 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 17 (No response.) 18 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There is one other 20 possibility that Mr. Gondeck brought up that y'all may want 21 to listen to before you break. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: You didn't want to go to lunch 23 with us, did you, Mr. Gondeck? 24 MR. GONDECK: Well, it's not that I don't 25 enjoy y'all's company. One possibility that has not been 11-8-04 142 1 really looked into yet -- and part of it has been lack of 2 documentation or actually information on the existing 3 building. The last time I went through with any real 4 diligence on that building was probably back in 2001 on the 5 existing building, and realized that, you know, it does have 6 some substantial issues with it, as far as being utilized 7 for a maximum security adult facility. However -- and I'm 8 just going to state this, and I know I always end up on the 9 record stating the things maybe that nobody else wants to 10 really hear. I don't know for sure as far as whether this 11 is politically correct or anything else, but if we look at 12 the total use of the existing facility as a juvenile 13 facility, either as a total detention facility or a partial 14 detention and residential facility, and how we can best 15 utilize those beds -- and I'm not sure what the pro forma 16 work is on that -- then to look at the existing facility as 17 taking those components that right now are serviceable of 18 the kitchen, laundry, the office areas, and some of the 19 ancillary areas, and looking at the rest of it being gutted, 20 and then come back in and rebuild a secure adult facility in 21 there, probably to, again, look at the -- the possibility of 22 housing females in there, that is a possibility. 23 In many of the projects that we've seen today 24 going up around the state, most of your buildings are -- 25 jail buildings are being built out of rigid frame or metal 11-8-04 143 1 building-type structures as to what you have, and you come 2 in and build the secure jail inside of it. There are some 3 components within there, some air conditioning systems and 4 other things that -- that may have to be, you know, totally 5 modified, but that may be a proposition that -- that you 6 want to look at to see what the actual -- I guess, the 7 purchase of the building as-is, the renovation of that, what 8 are those costs versus what you can utilize that for as a 9 48- to 60-bed female facility, to also augment a 24-bed 10 detention or detention residential facility. 11 I know that nobody's had any time to really 12 think about that or whatever else, but if -- if y'all want 13 some numbers whenever y'all meet again on that, we'd be 14 happy to work with the Sheriff and Ms. Harris on, you know, 15 what it would take to go through there and generate that. I 16 would say, right now, that it is -- just off the top of my 17 head, you're probably going to end up spending a million to 18 million and a half dollars to do it. But it's one other 19 thing -- I know that -- I think that everything should be 20 put out on the table and -- and looked at. If you want us 21 to do that, we're willing to help you do that. If not, I 22 don't mind if you say no, because it's not going to be a 23 real clean proposition. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate the benefit of that 11-8-04 144 1 information. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Thank you, 3 Wayne, again. 4 MR. GONDECK: You bet. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else in 6 connection with Item 15 or 16? Why don't we move on to Item 7 17, then, consider and discuss possible litigation against 8 9-1-1 that may impact Kerr County. That's shown as an 9 executive session item, so we will go out of open/public 10 session now, and it is now 12:38. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, on that, the 12 Assistant City Attorney's present, and she probably has some 13 information that will be useful relating to this. So, 14 certainly, I would appreciate her being -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: You want her in? Okay. All 16 right. 17 (The open session was closed at 12:38 p.m., and an Executive Session was held, the 18 transcript of which is contained in a separate document.) 19 - - - - - - - - - - 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. It's 12:59, and we'll 21 come back into open and public session. Is there any action 22 offered with respect to any matters discussed in closed 23 session? It appears that there is one more item that -- on 24 the agenda for today that was not acted upon, that being 25 Item Number 7, consider and discuss bid received and 11-8-04 145 1 selection processes and awarding or rejecting of roof and 2 HVAC replacement bids. Is there any action proposed to be 3 offered in connection with this? I don't see Mr. Holekamp 4 here. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It'll be tabled until 6 our next meeting. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: No one offering anything, that 8 one will be passed, then. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We could take the Ag 10 Barn and put juvenile beds in there. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That kind of thing. 13 There's a start. That would rile them up. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or we could take the 15 Stock Show put it in the Juvenile Detention Center. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Got a big building. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there anything further to 18 be offered for the meeting today? Hearing nothing further, 19 I'll declare the meeting adjourned. 20 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 12:59 p.m.) 21 - - - - - - - - - - 22 23 24 25 11-8-04 146 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 12th day of November, 8 2004. 9 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11-8-04