1 2 3 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 4 and 5 KERRVILLE CITY COUNCIL 6 City/County Joint Programs Workshop 7 Friday, May 6, 2005 8 8:00 a.m. 9 District Court Jury Room # 1 10 Kerr County Courthouse 11 Kerrville, Texas 12 13 14 15 P R E S E N T 16 Kerr County Commissioners Court: 17 PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge 18 H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 19 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 20 Kerrville City Council: 21 STEPHEN P. FINE, Mayor 22 DAVID WAMPLER, Mayor Pro Tem OLLIE D. BROWN, Place 1 23 LARRY W. HOWARD, Place 2 EUGENE C. SMITH, Place 4 24 DON DAVIS, Interim City Manager 25 2 1 I N D E X May 6, 2005 2 PAGE 3 Call to Order 4 1. Consider, discuss and possible action on Jointly Owned/Operated Facilities or Programs including, 5 but not limited to: 3 6 a. Kerrville/Kerr County Municipal Airport b. EMS and Fire Suppression 7 c. Community Recycling Center d. Butt-Holdsworth Memorial Library 8 e. Animal Control 9 Adjourned 56 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Friday, May 6, 2005, at 8:00 a.m., a special joint 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and Kerrville 3 City Council was held in the District Court Jury Room # 1, 4 Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and the following 5 proceedings were had in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and 8 gentlemen. Let me call to order the special joint 9 Commissioners Court and City Council meeting between those 10 two bodies posted for this time and date, Friday, May the 11 6th, 2005, at 8 a.m. It is past that time now, so we need 12 to try and get on down to business. The -- the agenda, as 13 posted by the Commissioners Court, was to consider, discuss, 14 and possible action on jointly-owned/operated facilities or 15 programs, including, but not limited to, the Kerrville/Kerr 16 County Municipal Airport, EMS and Fire Suppression, 17 Community Recycling Center, Butt-Holdsworth Memorial 18 Library, and Animal Control. I had anticipated that we 19 might be able to move into some of the subject matter of 20 these items. I received an e-mail from the Kerrville City 21 Manager yesterday -- correction. Actually, it -- well, I 22 got it yesterday; it came in after 5:00 on Wednesday, that 23 the City Manager indicated that, in his mind, the purpose 24 and intent of the meeting for this Friday is for the two 25 bodies to discuss the process that will be used from that 5-9-05 jcc 4 1 point forward in dealing with those joint issues, contracts, 2 or matters. 3 I would note that -- I think it was week 4 before last, that I furnished information to -- no, it was 5 last week, actually, that I furnished information on Animal 6 Control services, some financial and activity reports for 7 the facility that the County operates, along with some 8 proposed meeting dates that resulted in this particular 9 meeting being scheduled. That is the only facility of the 10 joint activities that's operated by Kerr County. I thought 11 it beneficial that y'all had whatever information that we 12 have. Yesterday, we received from the City representatives 13 some information relative to the emergency medical services 14 agreement, some explanatory data, and a proposed interlocal 15 agreement for emergency medical services. I don't know the 16 extent to which members of the Commissioners Court have been 17 able to review that information. I was able to take a 18 little bit of time to do so. I have a number of questions 19 about some of that information, but if we're not going to 20 get into the substance of these particular operations or -- 21 or facilities, maybe I need to understand where -- where you 22 guys are coming from. 23 MAYOR FINE: Like I said, this is more really 24 designed to discuss how the process is going to go. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you need to -- 5-9-05 jcc 5 1 MAYOR FINE: He said -- the way he opened it, 2 calling both of us, was sufficient. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just wanted to make 4 sure it was legal. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me, if I might -- before 6 you start, we've got a court reporter here taking a 7 transcript, and for anyone that speaks, if they'd be kind 8 enough to -- anyone other than the Court; obviously, she's 9 familiar with those people. If they'd be kind enough to 10 identify themselves so she's got a good, clean record, I'd 11 appreciate it. Thank you. I apologize, Mr. Mayor. 12 MAYOR FINE: Stephen Fine, Mayor, City of 13 Kerrville. This was really designed to discuss the policy 14 and -- not policy. The procedures, 'cause we had talked 15 about that in the past, about setting up some particular 16 committees and to review how things were handled. I think 17 we wanted to break it down at some point in time to look at 18 how the different processes were being handled, and it 19 really wasn't meant to discuss the actual in-depth budget. 20 We don't have it yet. We're not that -- at that point in 21 our process. It's just the beginning of May, and we're just 22 not there yet. The meetings we have held with y'all in the 23 past have, I believe, generally been held in June. June or 24 even July, possibly. And with some of the changes going on 25 around City Hall -- the processes will go on whether or not 5-9-05 jcc 6 1 Mr. Patterson is there or not, but we just -- we do not have 2 the full budget to actually hand to you. 3 The figures we've given on EMS are -- are 4 based largely on what's happened in the past and what we can 5 project into the future. They're -- they're solid figures. 6 You know, we've got years worth of records, you know, about 7 10 years worth of data on EMS, so it's not something that's 8 just pulled out of thin air. I don't know how else to put 9 it. I don't know what part of those -- those figures you 10 would like to discuss or feel that maybe we need to discuss 11 it later in context with fire protection and do it all at 12 one time. There have been some changes in, you know, how 13 the City handles EMS -- not handles, but the way and how 14 money's being collected. Medicare/Medicaid has hurt us 15 drastically. There have been some changes. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Steve, let me say 17 something here, talking about how -- how that we conduct our 18 meetings if we have meetings together. I mean, to me, 19 that's the reason we're here today. 20 MAYOR FINE: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I want to start 22 off by saying, you know, there's -- there's a gap here 23 between the City and the County. There's some -- some bad 24 feelings and some feelings hurt and all those things. And I 25 just want to say if -- you know, if I caused any of that, I 5-9-05 jcc 7 1 want to apologize to the City, and get that out of the way. 2 This is the people's business. You know, we -- we really 3 don't have any choice. We need to lay down our personal 4 stuff and move forward as a body; the two bodies coming 5 together, and move forward as a body, because it's the 6 taxpayers' business, and sometimes it angers me that we have 7 to take on little personal issues. But I like -- to get 8 down to the bottom line, I like the way that y'all have done 9 it before, and I appreciate and I know there's a tremendous 10 amount of hours that the staff puts into the program, 11 preparing all that paperwork for us and all those numbers. 12 I like that. I like to go to the meeting and be presented 13 -- I mean, some of it bores me to tears, but I -- that's the 14 only way I'm going to get all the information. You know, I 15 think where we bog down is that, you know, we're kind of the 16 redneck side, and we -- okay, me. Okay. (Laughter.) Okay, 17 there's just one of us. All right. 18 There's got to be questions. There's things 19 that I don't understand. I'll speak for me; there's things 20 that I don't understand. I have to ask questions. And 21 sometimes I know that those questions appear to be maybe 22 intrusive, or you all feel like, you know, "Here's the 23 information. Don't you understand this stuff? Why are you 24 asking all these questions?" And -- but I've got to. I've 25 got to ask the questions, because I don't understand all of 5-9-05 jcc 8 1 it. I'm trying to be honest here and lay everything out on 2 the table. So, you know, if -- if we are offensive by 3 asking questions, then we really do have a problem, because 4 we have to ask questions. There are questions -- I mean, 5 there's things that we don't see and don't understand, and 6 have to -- and so the -- you have to ask questions to get 7 those answers. 8 MAYOR FINE: Right. Buster, I don't think 9 anybody's going to argue about the question asking, because 10 we do the same thing. And I think, in the past, 11 personalities have been brought into this. It's -- there's 12 an inherent difference in the two governments. We have a 13 staff that does the work and presents it to us, just like 14 it's presented to y'all. But we're also not full-time 15 employees. I mean, you know, we get 50 bucks a month to do 16 our meetings, and that's it. And -- and you guys have to do 17 your own budget, your own districts, and y'all have to work 18 individually with each one of them, and for y'all it's a 19 job, almost like the staff, and what y'all do. I don't mean 20 that in a bad way or good way or otherwise. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's true. 22 MAYOR FINE: It's the different nature of the 23 beast. Your numbers, you probably understand them better 24 because you put them together. Our numbers are presented to 25 us, just like they are to you. And, you know, the 5-9-05 jcc 9 1 difference in the past, when -- we got our books in the past 2 at the same time y'all did. I know it's been felt that we 3 got them weeks ahead of time. That's not the case. They've 4 been handed to us probably within -- everybody on 5 Commissioners Court and City Council got them within 24 6 hours of each other. And the difference in time would be 7 who was closest to City Hall when they were being handed out 8 and who was the last person on the route, but other than 9 that, there hasn't been a big difference. And I think that 10 it hasn't been the actual asking of the questions; I think 11 at times it's just been the nature of the way the questions 12 were asked. And -- and I don't think right now is really 13 appropriate to get into that. I think if we're going to 14 move forward, we don't need to dwell on the past. We have 15 some new Council members; we have some new Commissioners, 16 and I think we need to look at where we are now and move 17 forward, because arguing about the past, we all saw it in 18 different -- from different angles, and I think we're all 19 sorry the way things have happened, and I'd like it to work 20 better too. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. That's good. 22 MAYOR FINE: I think in -- I think, you know, 23 there are some differences in our -- our governments, the 24 way they both work, and we need to recognize those, and 25 instead of arguing about it, just recognize that it's there 5-9-05 jcc 10 1 and move on down the road. And we -- we're -- some of these 2 programs, we're joined at the hip from now on. Other ones, 3 you know, there -- there may be ways -- you guys have taken, 4 like, you know, the Animal Control. Well, we used to have 5 separate ones, and now we've been able to work together on 6 some of this stuff. And I think the more we can do to 7 simplify all of it, it would be a lot easier. And -- and 8 that's -- it gets out of -- it gets away from negotiating 9 little, bitty minor details instead of maybe -- you know, 10 like the EMS contract. We would be a contractor, period. 11 You know, you tell us the level of service you desire, and 12 we give you a price for that level of service, instead of it 13 coming down to individual numbers and individual county 14 runs. And if the cost of gas goes up, it's our problem that 15 year, because we bid it too low, just like it would be any 16 other contractor. But I think some of this stuff, we just 17 need to put it behind ourselves and -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Steve, I think -- if I 19 can interject something, I agree with almost everything you 20 were saying, and I think you did -- I mean, it's very 21 important that everyone, you know, understands the 22 differences in the government. But where the -- I think the 23 disconnect has happened in the prior meetings is that -- 24 that we -- you know, everyone gets presented the budget at 25 the same time. The Council has had -- on the City 5-9-05 jcc 11 1 operation, the City-operated ones, has had some input, from 2 a policy standpoint, from the staff, but we've never had the 3 contact with the staff. I think what's going to have to 4 happen for us to understand those budgets is for the 5 Commissioners to have contact with the staff so we 6 understand the policy going into the budget that's being 7 generated. I think that's what's causing the difficulty. 8 Because, as you said, you know, we do get very involved with 9 that. We set the policy, and we do the -- 10 MAYOR FINE: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- the numbers, whereas 12 the City sets the policy and the staff does the numbers. 13 So, I think it's a -- you know, to keep -- you know, and 14 that's been, I think, what has caused the difficulty. And 15 the other part of the difficulty, in my mind, is that for a 16 while we were having one -- maybe one a year, two meetings, 17 but we meet very seldom, so every -- well, we have a whole 18 lot of questions built up over a year, and so it's our one 19 opportunity to really get them answered, so we probably 20 discuss too much. And that's why I think the -- I mentioned 21 to the City Manager before, the way the airport issue was 22 resolved, to me, was a very good way. It was a way for both 23 bodies to have representatives that were communicating back 24 and forth, and when it got to the point of the decisions 25 being made -- Council made and the Commissioners Court made, 5-9-05 jcc 12 1 the committees never made any decisions. They just talked 2 it up, came up, and it was -- you know, it came out with a 3 recommendation to them that was discussed on both bodies. 4 So, to me, that works a lot better than just having one 5 meeting. The one meeting, I think, is just an overview, 6 kind of a culmination of the process. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think there's an 8 erroneous perception out in the -- in the community that we 9 fail to get together and don't do things together and we're 10 constantly lobbying nuclear devices up and down Highway 27. 11 The reality of that is, that is not true. We work together 12 on a lot of things. And what Commissioner Letz just cited 13 in terms of the airport, I think, is a classic example of 14 the ability to take a very difficult issue and shape it and 15 make it come out to the benefit of both sides of the 16 equation, and I think -- I think that applies all up and 17 down the line. Each one of these things that we do 18 together -- well, we fund together -- are important to the 19 community, and I think it's important also that we get on 20 with it. Now, sometimes I think -- as Commissioner Letz 21 pointed out, sometimes there are questions behind the 22 numbers, and sometimes, by asking those questions, somebody 23 gets upset that the -- you know, the numbers are supposed to 24 speak for themselves. Quite often that's not the case. The 25 numbers do not speak for themselves. And there are issues 5-9-05 jcc 13 1 and there are -- certainly, every time there's an issue 2 behind a number, there certainly is an answer. And so, you 3 know, I think it's imperative that we -- that we set aside 4 any -- any dislike for asking questions so that we can get 5 down to the reality of these issues and make them happen. 6 MAYOR FINE: Well, and I think there are some 7 alternatives to even the way -- I mean, even with the 8 airport. You know, the airport, there are districts that 9 could be set up as far as taxing goes, and that way all the 10 money would come out of one pool instead of two pools. 11 There's -- you could do the same thing with the library 12 district. That would be a county-wide library district that 13 everybody in the county would pay their fair share evenly. 14 And I think there's -- there's ways we can handle a lot of 15 these -- or not a lot of these, but some of these, where 16 it -- there wouldn't be any question. You've got a board 17 that -- this is where the money comes from; it's not your 18 money or my money, City's money or the County's money. It's 19 the library's money. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Frankly, in terms of 21 the library, that's a good approach. 22 MAYOR FINE: And the same thing with the 23 airport. Actually, it could be done the same way, to where 24 it doesn't come down to us having to collect it and us -- I 25 mean, there are easier ways to do some of this than the way 5-9-05 jcc 14 1 we're doing it, and even with ownership of some of the 2 properties -- I mean, you guys own the land under the 3 Recycle Center; we own the building. But if we move, the 4 building stays. And then I think Animal Control, we get 5 credit on a sewer line that's run up there, but you guys do 6 the service. I think maybe if we'd sit down and do some 7 trading, we could -- we could clean up a lot of this stuff, 8 where all of our books would be easier at the end of the 9 year, and to get away from all these little, bitty 10 nitpicking numbers that go back and forth. And I think 11 there's a lot of clean-ups that could be done pretty easily. 12 I mean, I'm -- I'm not a lawyer or a C.P.A., but some of 13 it's relatively easy to figure out. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Your lawyer is wanting to say 15 something here. 16 MR. BROWN: Well, not really. There's our 17 lawyer. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Well -- 19 MR. BROWN: Ollie Brown. I brought with me 20 today a copy of what we did two years ago when we had our 21 last joint City/County joint program budget and everything. 22 And, as Stephen has said, you know, there's a whole bunch -- 23 a rash of information in here. And, for instance -- and 24 I've talked to Commissioners Williams and Letz about this. 25 Here is just -- all these pages are just on the 5-9-05 jcc 15 1 Butt-Holdsworth Memorial Library, and I guarantee you that 2 every nickel and every dime that was spent and was proposed 3 to be spent is set forth in these numerous pages. I have 4 been confused over time when statements have been made that 5 you didn't get any information. You got as much information 6 as we got, and you got it, as Stephen says, at the same time 7 we did. I think we -- if you gentlemen will recall, we did, 8 as a result of that last meeting, come up with a -- a 9 proposal to ask the City Manager to draft something up on 10 the Airport Board and to do that, and ultimately that's what 11 we were able to accomplish, I think, which I think is a 12 very, very good thing. 13 One of the things, Jonathan, is, here again, 14 we've got the ethics -- or not the ethics, but the work 15 ethics, if you will, of the two organizations. You're 16 saying you want to talk to staff. I don't talk to staff. 17 I've only got three employees as a Councilperson -- or the 18 Council; Mike, the City Manager, and the judge. I mean, 19 that's -- the municipal judge. If I want some 20 information -- if we want some information, normally we go 21 through and see the Manager or the Assistant City Manager, 22 and that's the way the system works. But we do give -- we 23 do provide a whole bunch of information, and I suggest that 24 you contract the information that we -- the City had 25 provided in terms of EMS, fire, all the other things. We 5-9-05 jcc 16 1 have the information contained in this booklet on Animal 2 Control which the County provided to the City. And I'm not 3 trying to create an argument; I'm just trying to say we've 4 got to recognize where we're coming from. And I -- I, for 5 one, would think that it would be good to go back to a 6 system of meeting on occasion, and -- but the point is, we 7 can't give you the numbers before we get them, before 8 they're generated. And you -- you get them at the same time 9 we get them. And that whole purpose of that workshop was to 10 allow people to ask any questions they wanted to, and at 11 that point, we did have staff there and they were able to 12 answer questions. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have a question. And I 14 think the library's a good example. I've never sat on the 15 Library Board, so I'm asking this question. I don't know 16 what the -- how -- we have a liaison to the Library Board. 17 The answer we received back from the City numerous times is, 18 "You have a liaison; you should know those things." Does 19 that Library Board run the library totally? They do the 20 budget? 21 MR. BROWN: Absolutely not. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Advisory board. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's right. So -- 24 okay, that's what I thought. So it's an advisory board, so 25 how does the Commissioners Court, as a body -- 'cause 5-9-05 jcc 17 1 we're -- I have no authority as an individual commissioner. 2 How does the Commissioners Court get with the airport -- or 3 the library manager to discuss, you know, what his 4 long-range plans are? I mean, there's lots of things that 5 cannot be reduced to numbers. 6 MR. WAMPLER: Jonathan, I think what we're 7 trying to say here is that we don't talk to the library -- 8 we do not go to Antonio and talk to him about his long-range 9 plans. We do have an opportunity to hear about his 10 long-range plans at our budget workshop that we have 11 midsummer, you know, August. So, we don't go to Antonio and 12 sit down with him. It's not to say that we couldn't. I 13 guess we could, but that's just really not how -- how it 14 works. We talk to Ron, and -- and we go to those meetings 15 and we listen to that. And that meeting, by the way, is an 16 open meeting, so if a couple of commissioners wanted to 17 come, they could come and sit in on that meeting to listen 18 to see what our process is and our priorities are. Members 19 of the public can come in and do that. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that's the point. 21 Ron talks to Antonio, but we don't get -- but we are the 22 equivalent of Ron and you, and we don't get to talk to 23 Antonio as a body. I mean, 'cause it takes five of us to -- 24 I mean, I can't -- and that's where the -- that's where we 25 don't get the information. 5-9-05 jcc 18 1 MR. BROWN: That's where we've got the 2 difference in our -- in our whole makeup. 3 MAYOR FINE: Right. 4 MR. BROWN: And from the Constitution of the 5 State of Texas -- which did a terrible job in establishing 6 counties within the state of Texas, and I think everybody 7 understands that. And -- and you and I aren't going to 8 change it anytime soon. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. So, I guess what 10 I'm saying is that, you know, is Council going to be 11 comfortable with Commissioners Court meeting with Antonio? 12 'Cause I don't see any other way that we're going to 13 understand the library. 14 MAYOR FINE: Well, I think what David is 15 saying is, actually, it should go through Ron. 16 MR. WAMPLER: Well, it should go through the 17 City Manager and/or Council, because at the end of the day, 18 Antonio provides us with information and we make the 19 decision. 20 MAYOR FINE: But we don't -- 21 MR. WAMPLER: Antonio's not making any 22 decisions. 23 MAYOR FINE: We don't get a budget every week 24 from the library, either. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand that, but -- 5-9-05 jcc 19 1 I don't want to micromanage the library or any other entity, 2 but I think when we get into the long-term direction, that 3 decision is being made between -- 4 MR. WAMPLER: That decision is being made by 5 Council. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it should be made 7 by the County and Council. But it -- but we're not -- we 8 have no way to get into the process. We have no way to get 9 into that process. 10 MR. WAMPLER: Well, you guys have -- you have 11 a liaison in the meetings. You have an ability to contact 12 Council members. You have an ability to contact the City 13 Manager. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have a liaison that 15 goes to the board, which are appointed as an advisory board. 16 MAYOR FINE: And, actually, that Library 17 Board probably gets more information than most of Council 18 does. I guarantee you, they do. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But Ron is in the loop. 20 Y'all keep leaving Ron out, and we are Ron. 21 MR. BROWN: Well -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's where the problem 23 comes in. 24 MR. BROWN: Vis-a-vis the library advisory 25 board, I've been on it since I've been on the Council, and 5-9-05 jcc 20 1 the point is that Antonio goes to every one of those 2 meetings, and your -- your representative could ask any 3 question he wants to ask. And if you want to post it and 4 bring the whole -- whole Commissioners Court there, I see no 5 reason why you couldn't. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That sounds pretty 7 good, but I've served on that board for about six years, and 8 the reality of it is, that's not usually what happens. The 9 report from the director -- and I'm kind of -- I'm really 10 kind of sorry that we got on this as an individual issue, 11 but it seems to have a -- we seem to be focused on it for a 12 few minutes, anyhow. The report that comes down is pretty 13 perfunctory, pretty casual, pretty superficial. And I don't 14 recall ever, in six years, where the actual budget of the 15 library was shared with the advisory board. 16 MR. BROWN: That's correct. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So the question is, 18 how do you ask the question behind the numbers? That's the 19 question. 20 MAYOR FINE: But you're being given the same 21 information we are, because we're not getting that report 22 either. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe you should ask 24 that question. 25 MAYOR FINE: Well, we do at budget time when 5-9-05 jcc 21 1 it comes around. 2 MR. WAMPLER: The numbers are right here in 3 this book. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: David -- 5 MR. WAMPLER: You've been provided -- 6 MAYOR FINE: I tell you what, instead of 7 focusing on why it's broke, because it's been that way for a 8 lot of years, why don't we try to figure out a way to fix 9 it? And I think the way the airport was fixed, or that 10 board, might be what needs to happen with the library. And 11 even the same thing with funding, like I said a few minutes 12 ago. Instead of your money and my money and arguing about 13 this and that, why doesn't a library district be formed 14 that's county-wide? The library was designed to serve the 15 entire county. If satellite libraries are desired to be 16 built, it would be handled through that board and that -- 17 and that library tax. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that concept 19 has a lot of merit. 20 MAYOR FINE: And I think that, you know, that 21 would eliminate arguments at budget time, because that 22 budget -- you know, you would -- you would report directly 23 to whoever it is that's going to be running it, whether it's 24 Antonio or -- it's going to be the same way if the City 25 contracts it or the County contracts it and they become 5-9-05 jcc 22 1 Antonio's boss. I mean, I don't think that's -- it would be 2 the same way with -- you know, with the airport. I think 3 the airport funding, that's another way to look at doing 4 that, is setting up an airport district that does the same 5 thing the library district does. At the end of the day, the 6 taxes all come from the same place, the citizens, and it's 7 just a matter of how they're going to be collected. And, 8 actually, it would give the citizens more of a direct input 9 into -- into each one of these. If they're more interested 10 in doing improvements at the library, they could go directly 11 to -- that Library Board would be the one that would levy 12 that tax rate. 13 MR. BROWN: Judge? 14 MAYOR FINE: Not us or you, but them. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 16 MR. BROWN: There is a bill in the -- as I 17 informed Commissioners Nicholson and Williams, there is a 18 bill in the Legislature right now to authorize library 19 districts for the first time in Texas. It's really aimed at 20 Bexar County and -- and down there. The way that the bill 21 is now written, it wouldn't accommodate us, I don't think, 22 here in Kerr County, but perhaps if we -- if we got with our 23 legislative delegation, it could be amended before it passed 24 to satisfy problems that I'm sure would arise between here 25 and Kerr County on that. And I think it's a great future 5-9-05 jcc 23 1 possibility, given the marriage that was foisted upon both 2 the City and the County years ago by the Butt -- by 3 Mr. Butt. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, of course, if -- of 5 course, any -- any library district that may be authorized 6 and would be self-supporting would have to be approved by 7 referendum, certainly for taxing powers. 8 MR. BROWN: Sure. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: To be self-supporting. But -- 10 and that may be a real possibility and an option that we 11 want to look at. But I think right now, we've got things 12 that are more critical from a time standpoint in front of 13 us, and if -- if we're here to try and determine a process, 14 number one, I -- I found -- I found this very helpful, 15 extremely helpful, to -- to try and find out what I needed 16 to know. Certainly, there were additional questions that I 17 had, and I asked a lot of additional questions when we had 18 our joint workshop. But if -- if our purpose here today is 19 to find a process by which we're going to go forward in 20 order to try and find a resolution to these various joint 21 functions and operations, you know, we made a proposal -- or 22 the Court directed me to make a proposal back in early 23 March. I made that proposal on how to proceed, and for some 24 reason, that was something that did not seem appropriate to 25 Council. What -- what process do you -- 5-9-05 jcc 24 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 MAYOR FINE: I think it was felt that we've 3 already got -- or have committees in place. There's already 4 an Airport Board. Now, the Library Board may not be the 5 animal that we want. And Animal Control, I don't think 6 there's ever been any argument on the City's part as far as 7 how y'all have handled that or the price. We felt we've 8 gotten a fair service for a fair price. The Recycling 9 Center, there again, that's something we talked about. We 10 can eliminate -- I mean, that thing is open to all county 11 residents at the same time it's open to everybody in the 12 city. And I think there's some ways we could make life 13 easier; like I said, doing a property swap or purchase or 14 whatever on that. And the same thing with Animal Control. 15 You know, seems to me it all comes down to EMS and fire. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Am I hearing from you that 17 basically what you're proposing as a process is that once 18 you get all of your numbers together on your various 19 functions that you perform, we'll have another joint session 20 with a compilation such as this that we've had in past 21 years, and see what -- how we can go forward on that basis? 22 Is that what I'm hearing? 23 MAYOR FINE: If that's what we need to do, we 24 can do that. But I think it's also prudent on the part of 25 the -- particularly Commissioners Court, if you have a 5-9-05 jcc 25 1 question ahead of time that you're not clear on as you're 2 reading it, you can always call the Assistant City Manager. 3 I don't think there's anything in the document that says, if 4 you need a clarification while you're reading it, that you 5 couldn't have called. That might have helped before we got 6 to the meeting. Like I said, that's what I've done, and I'm 7 sure other members of the Council have done it. And I think 8 that's one of the complaints, that you feel like you haven't 9 been able to do that or haven't felt comfortable doing that. 10 I don't think there'd be a problem on that at all. 11 Speaking of the City Manager, I should have 12 done this earlier. This is Don Davis; he's going to be our 13 Interim Assistant City Manager. I don't know if y'all have 14 had the opportunity to meet him. Don's going to be filling 15 in -- or not filling in for Ron; taking Ron's place. So, 16 I'm sorry to throw this in real quick, but I made a note 17 here to do it, and didn't make it. But I think, you know, 18 y'all should feel free to call -- like I said, it would be 19 Don, you know, to find out the answers to those questions 20 before going into the meeting, and it might make the meeting 21 more efficient. If there's something that you see in there 22 that just glares at you, we could -- we could have the 23 answer before we even get there. 24 And the way we handle that on City Council 25 is, if anyone calls Ron or e-mails Ron or Mike, the response 5-9-05 jcc 26 1 to that question, along with the question, is e-mailed to 2 all five of us so we know what question was asked and what 3 the answer was. And that's the way it's been handled for -- 4 well, since Ron's been here. It keeps us all abreast as to 5 what questions are being asked, and maybe we've had the same 6 question and just hadn't asked it yet, but it gives us the 7 opportunity to see, you know, what -- what questions or 8 concerns are going on out there, and how they're being 9 handled. So, that may be a process that might work best 10 here also. And I don't know legally if we can -- you guys 11 can do that or not with regards to information dispersing or 12 something. I don't know if you guys are under the same 13 rules we are. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I think each of us could 15 individually ask whatever -- 16 MAYOR FINE: Right. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- questions or express 18 whatever concerns we have, and then, depending upon what 19 that is, disseminate the questions and/or the responses to 20 the other members of the Court. I don't think that's a 21 difficult -- 22 MAYOR FINE: Ron does that for us. I mean, 23 that's just the process in keeping us all abreast of 24 who's -- I mean, what's going on and what questions are 25 being asked. Most of the time, we've all got the same 5-9-05 jcc 27 1 questions. And lots of -- you know, we -- maybe I just 2 haven't had time to sit down and type the e-mail yet. You 3 open it up, there's the answer to your question. But, I 4 mean, that's totally up to you. If you want to do it 5 dividually, I have no problem. I don't necessarily want to 6 read every question everybody has, either. But -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The question I have -- 8 let me make sure I understand what you were saying. And 9 airport, I think everyone agrees, is operating fine right 10 now. We've got -- it's pretty much being run by the board 11 with input from the two owners. Animal Control and 12 Recycling are kind of similar animals, in that they're kind 13 of joint-owned facilities. You're looking at -- a good idea 14 for those two would be to clean those up, make the County 15 own one or both and City own one or both, and quit having 16 this joint ownership of the property. 17 MAYOR FINE: Just clean it up. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have one operate it and 19 then do an interlocal agreement with the other. 20 MAYOR FINE: Pretty much. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Library, we're 22 talking about primarily, I guess, enhancing the authority of 23 the Library Board. 24 MAYOR FINE: I think making it similar to 25 what the airport -- 5-9-05 jcc 28 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I mean, do it -- 2 MR. BROWN: That's a long-range deal. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. You have to -- 4 but -- well, it certainly won't be done this budget year, 5 but it could be done by next budget year, but more like 6 we're running the airport. I think we have -- probably have 7 the ability to do it. I don't know why you couldn't run it 8 that way, without having to go to both legal staffs to look 9 at that. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The taxing aspect, 11 that's going to take a little longer. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, that -- even 13 without the taxing aspect, I think you could be -- you know, 14 the financial -- it could be run the same way as the 15 airport, is that the financial decisions have to go back to 16 the two owners. You could do that. And then EMS and fire, 17 clearly, that's something that the County doesn't really -- 18 can't even get into. It's something that the City has to 19 do, and we have to look at, you know, coming into an 20 interlocal agreement on that one that we're both happy with, 21 or the County can try something else if we can't come to an 22 agreement. So, that's kind of -- the EMS and fire, it's 23 kind of like the library. We really need to sit down and do 24 a new way to operate. 25 MAYOR FINE: Well, it's not like the library. 5-9-05 jcc 29 1 We own the library together. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 3 MAYOR FINE: And the other way -- I think, 4 you know, the way I look at it is the County needs to let us 5 know what level of service is desired. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 7 MAYOR FINE: I mean, if service -- if 8 enhanced service is desired. If you guys want an ambulance 9 station full-time and staffed out in Hunt, we can do that. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 11 MAYOR FINE: But, you know, the cost is going 12 to have to reflect how that's going to happen. And the same 13 thing with Center Point. And that's -- that's, I think, a 14 lot of where we were in the past, is some of this hasn't 15 been clearly defined. We've got a contract that's been just 16 renewed and renewed and renewed and renewed, and it's to the 17 point now where we need to sit down and actually explain 18 things or have things defined a little bit better. And that 19 way, if the County is not happy with the price the City has, 20 they have an opportunity to go somewhere else, if that's 21 what we want to do. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the other point 23 that just -- 24 MAYOR FINE: We don't want that to happen. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure, I understand. 5-9-05 jcc 30 1 MAYOR FINE: That's not what we're trying -- 2 we're not trying to run you guys off. We're not trying to 3 gouge anybody, and we're not making any profit. I guarantee 4 you, we're not making a profit. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One of the things that -- 6 I mean, this is more for the people in the audience; I think 7 everyone at the table understands this, that there are 8 contracts for all of these. The problem is, the contracts 9 have not been renegotiated for, in most cases, over 10 10 years, and during that 10-year period, a lot has changed. 11 So -- and that -- and I think the friction between the 12 Council and the -- the Commissioners Court started with, you 13 know, changes wanting to be made outside the contract. And 14 the Commissioners Court pretty much -- the City operates 15 more than we do. So, pretty much, there are contracts, and 16 we're getting this year to the point that those contracts 17 are being negotiated, which is needed, but I think that's a 18 -- you know, for the future, it's a very bad policy, in my 19 mind, just to have an automatic renewal on these contracts, 20 because that's what created the problem we got to today. 21 And the things have gotten to the point that it was -- all 22 of a sudden, the City says, "Whoa, time out. We're paying 23 way too much on this, and this wasn't the intent." But no 24 one renegotiated the contract that was in place many, many 25 years ago, and I think that's a mistake. And on the 5-9-05 jcc 31 1 airport, we put that it's -- it's automatically renewed for 2 a while, but then there has to be more of a discussion at a 3 certain point. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think after five 5 years, we have to take a look. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, five years, look at 7 the government side of that. I think that should be 8 included in all these contracts, 'cause I think that is 9 what's happened. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd like to go back 11 to something Stephen -- Mayor -- said. I want to 12 congratulate Dave for coming in here -- it's a timed 13 entrance. He came in right after the library discussion was 14 over, and he's now -- he's now the representative -- 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I was just standing 16 at the doorway. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- County's 18 representative to the library. But some of the points you 19 made, I think, are valid, and for another reason. As we all 20 know, the Friends of the Library have engaged themselves, 21 and I believe have funded a study to determine the scope of 22 the library as we move forward. Everybody acknowledges that 23 it's maxed out in terms of its current facility. So, you 24 know, once that study is completed, those folks who have a 25 real vested interest in the library, as do the rest of us, 5-9-05 jcc 32 1 are going to be looking to these two governing bodies to 2 determine how to move forward, and so I think that's another 3 reason why the initiative that you threw out on the table 4 makes a lot of sense, because when that happens and the 5 library is expanded, that's going to change the dynamics of 6 each of our relationships in terms of the number of dollars 7 that are going to be required to support it. And so, you 8 know, I think that it behooves us to really perhaps put 9 together a task force on that -- on that topic and see 10 what -- what's necessary to change the whole role, similar 11 to what we did with the library -- I mean with the airport. 12 MR. BROWN: As you know, Bill, there's a lot 13 of unscrambling of eggs got to take place -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. 15 MR. BROWN: -- in connection with all that, 16 on account of the history center and the genealogy center 17 and the building in between. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Absolutely. 19 MR. BROWN: All of that sort of thing, which 20 is -- the County has had no financial involvement in up to 21 this point. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand, and 23 that's all part of the things that have to get addressed. 24 MAYOR FINE: Well, something Ollie mentioned 25 a while ago about pending legislation, I don't know how many 5-9-05 jcc 33 1 days we have left to try to get something in there, but it 2 would be worth talking to our senator and representative to 3 see if the changes could be made. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 5 MAYOR FINE: Even if we don't do it, it would 6 -- if we don't contact them, it's going to be two years 7 before we can even think about doing it. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I think it's well 9 worth the effort. We ought to -- 10 MAYOR FINE: It's worth the effort to go 11 ahead and try to -- 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Representative 13 Hilderbran and -- 14 MAYOR FINE: -- make an option available to 15 us if it does come down the road, because that, to me, makes 16 more sense than anything with that board. If the board or 17 citizens want to add onto it, it may be in a year where the 18 City's not in a position to go an extra $100,000 or $200,000 19 into that fund, or the County may not be in that position to 20 do that, or the Commissioners or Council members don't 21 desire to do that. And I think if you had a board that 22 operated independently that ran the thing, I think that 23 would be more efficient with that particular animal. 24 MR. BROWN: Commissioner Letz is correct, you 25 know; no way we can do that right away. But, actually, 5-9-05 jcc 34 1 Jonathan, it's probably a little bit longer than that, 2 because it may require a constitutional amendment, so what 3 I'm looking at is the possibility of three or four years of 4 having that authority. But it's apparently a doable thing, 5 because apparently people from Bexar County have got it 6 loaded and locked for the concept of a library -- library 7 district. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know about it 10 requiring a constitutional amendment, but it certainly 11 requires legislation. 12 MR. BROWN: There are people that -- 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And this -- 14 MR. BROWN: -- that indicate that, but they 15 could be wrong. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This session's over, I 17 can tell you. But -- and it would be two years. So, you're 18 looking at two years, three years before you could implement 19 something like that. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: If that bill is not yet 21 passed, be an amendment attached to it to include -- it's 22 limited in Bexar County -- to include other counties. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You can try. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: At least we can get the 25 authorization. I realize -- 5-9-05 jcc 35 1 MAYOR FINE: It's worth sending a letter of 2 support from -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 4 MAYOR FINE: -- the Council and the 5 Commissioners Court. Be worth it. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: We're very, very late in the 7 game to get that done. 8 MAYOR FINE: Yeah. 9 MR. SMITH: I'd like to make a few 10 statements. I'm Gene Smith. I think we need to go back to 11 the -- the basic laws that establish the -- these services, 12 and -- and are there state laws that say this is the 13 boundary between the City and the County, and this is this 14 way and this is this way. I think we need to go back and 15 understand -- and, you know, I'm an amateur politician. You 16 guys on the Commissioners Court are professionals, but the 17 City Council are really amateur guys, and we come and go, 18 and -- and a lot of us really don't understand. And I'll -- 19 you know, I'll say I don't understand the relationships and 20 the laws associated with where the County stands and where 21 the City stands and where the city limits is. What -- 22 because the people in the city, I'm pretty sure they pay the 23 same county taxes as the people in the county. So, when you 24 say something is 50/50, well, the City does this and the 25 County does that. Well, some of my dollars pay for the -- 5-9-05 jcc 36 1 pay for the county stuff. 2 And, you know, instead of arguing about all 3 this, what I'd like -- like to know, are there any laws that 4 establish a relationship between the cities and counties in 5 this -- in this state? And if there are, are we abiding by 6 those? And then, these goods and services that we provide, 7 how much of them are required by law and how much of them 8 are required because of -- that, being good governments, we 9 want to provide these things, like the emergency service? 10 As I understand, that's not required by law, but it -- it's 11 a burden on -- on all the people here, and we ought to -- we 12 ought to have some way that it's -- that it's handled in a 13 fair and equitable manner. Like the library; I've heard 14 somebody say, "Well, the County says that's a city library," 15 and all that stuff. Well, I think we need to forget all 16 this, "Is it county or city?" It's for the people of this 17 area. And -- but I know the city people pay more than 18 50 percent of -- of the cost of that. Which is okay. 19 Because I keep mentioning the jail, and 20 everybody says, "Well, you know, the City only pays this 21 much, because that's state law." Well, it seems like the 22 County is paying more than their fair share of the jail. 23 And I don't know how many of these other things are -- are 24 inequitable, but I think what we need to do -- you know, if 25 it was me doing it, I'd go through the City's money and 5-9-05 jcc 37 1 allocate it to each of these things, and the County money 2 and allocate it, and you could see how much of the city 3 money goes towards the library and how much of the county 4 does, or the airport or the jail and so forth. There's -- 5 there's probably inequities on both sides, and I'd hate to 6 say, "Well, y'all are a bunch of -- you're not paying your 7 fair share," and then forget the fact that maybe in another 8 instance, I might not be paying my fair share. I don't know 9 the answer to these things, but you have to be fair between 10 the two governments, and you have -- and we both have to be 11 fair to the citizens. 12 So, that's -- I'd like -- you know, I don't 13 know if there's any state -- any laws that that's set up, 14 you know, where a street stops and that's paid for by the 15 City, and the street goes out in the county and so forth. 16 It seems like that -- that at least me -- maybe I'm the only 17 guy that doesn't understand it, but it seems like you ought 18 to have an understanding of the complete relationship 19 between the City and County in everything, and then worry 20 about the -- the eight or nine or ten little things that 21 we're involved with. But if you could take the revenue 22 coming in on the -- whatever it is, 5.9 for the city and 23 whatever the county is, and allocate it to each of these 24 things, you could see what's equitable and what isn't, at 25 least in my opinion. It would -- so that's my two cent's 5-9-05 jcc 38 1 worth. And I'll -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If I can make a quick 3 follow-up, one, Gene brought up the jail. And the jail, I 4 mean, a lot of it is -- that is governed by state law, a lot 5 of that. But the City does pay. They pay for, you know, 6 part of the bookings early on. I mean, the -- I don't know, 7 and -- but I don't know if there's an actual interlocal 8 agreement for that, and there should be. 9 MAYOR FINE: I don't think there is. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There should be, and that 11 should be brought up on the table, too, as to what that is, 12 because that's another -- that is a joint -- and the City 13 does pay some, but certainly, the County pays by far more. 14 But -- and it's done under state law, primarily, but that's 15 another interlocal agreement that probably does need to be 16 looked at. 17 MR. SMITH: That's why it's important to know 18 what the state law is in each of these things. 19 MR. WAMPLER: Rusty, can I ask a question, 20 just while we're talking about the jail? The state law says 21 that we pay you until a prisoner's magistrated, up to that 22 point only; is that correct? 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, unless he's a -- 24 and I was just looking at Erath County's agreement, okay, 25 that they had, 'cause we hadn't had one. If it's filed in 5-9-05 jcc 39 1 municipal court -- and Erath County's agreement with 2 Stephenville is $50 a day for all those that are filed in 3 municipal court, okay, whether it's state or not. But my 4 understanding is that most of the state law, until they're 5 magistrated, as long as it's on a state offense, okay, then 6 they are -- after magistration, they become the County's 7 responsibility. Before magistration, they're the City's 8 responsibility. 9 MR. WAMPLER: But am I correct, with the 10 City -- even though the state requirement is only until 11 they're magistrated, the City pays for them during -- for 12 the length of their stay, even beyond the time they're 13 magistrated? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The City pays actually 15 until they're magistrated, because if it's a city offense 16 like that, then we release it on P.R. bond automatically. 17 And then some of those, we have been charging -- I think 18 it's $37 a day compared to their contract while they're 19 serving out some of these city fines, if that's all they've 20 got. Now, if they've got a county court case and a city 21 court case, City doesn't get charged for them. County Court 22 pays for those. And -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But in the amount that 24 we're charging right now, it's -- it's done on a per diem 25 basis. We charge for housing prisoners, but in reality, if 5-9-05 jcc 40 1 you really look at it, the up-front cost of booking a 2 prisoner is lost in this, and there's no reimbursement to 3 the County for booking this prisoner, which is before 4 magistration. So, I mean, there's -- and, you know, that's 5 what Rusty and I were talking about. I'm liaison to the 6 jail, so I visit with Rusty a lot on all these issues, 7 trying to make sure that we're balanced. And so there 8 probably is an inequity in the jail that's, you know, 9 allowed under -- I mean, and that's why it probably needs to 10 be looked at, 'cause I think that, you know, the goal that I 11 think both bodies are striving for is to try to be as fair 12 as possible and be equal. I mean, we don't want one side 13 trying to subsidize the other. 14 MAYOR FINE: Gene, to answer some of your 15 questions, there are state laws on different ones. I mean, 16 like the landfill has to be provided, or trash service has 17 to be provided. In this case, the City currently owns it. 18 Seems like somewhere back in the history, the County may 19 have owned part of it; I have no idea. Some of these 20 ownerships, like on the airport, have gone back and forth 21 over the years. But if the -- if the City did not open the 22 landfill to the county, the County would have to provide for 23 trash service. But we work with them, and have for years, 24 and that's the way it should be. Just like the Recycle 25 Center; you don't have to have a recycle center, but it's in 5-9-05 jcc 41 1 everybody's best interests to have one. Some of these -- 2 fire and EMS, you know, if -- if you guys didn't contract 3 with us, you'd have to contract with somebody, wouldn't you? 4 Is it the County's responsibility to provide EMS service at 5 all? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 7 MAYOR FINE: Okay. See, some of those, it's 8 just being done because, like you said, it's a service to 9 the people. It's not required, but it is necessary. And I 10 think, you know, the State over the years has figured there 11 is a level of common sense in government, where they know 12 these things are needed, but they're not going to force you. 13 'Cause I think it's a no-brainer that you'd have to have 14 fire protection, EMS protection. 15 MR. SMITH: Yeah, I understand -- Gene Smith. 16 I understand that. But I was trying to -- to separate 17 what's required by law. And if it's required by law that 18 the law says that it has to be this way, well, then there's 19 no point in further discussions on that. But if it's -- if 20 it's just a -- I don't know. I doubt if the library is 21 required to be -- be furnished. 22 MAYOR FINE: I would not think so, but, like, 23 animal control is. If we didn't contract with the County, 24 we'd have to stand our own back up. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Gene, I've always 5-9-05 jcc 42 1 wanted to take a look at and lay on the table the things 2 that the Constitution requires us to do. You know, and 3 that's, like, police protection, fire protection, roads to 4 drive on. 5 MR. SMITH: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Those things. And 7 then start taking a look at all the things we, through the 8 years, have piled on the taxpayers of -- of this county. 9 And I think we would be amazed. I'm going to get that done 10 before I leave here, so I'd better get in a hurry. 11 MAYOR FINE: Buster, you're not going 12 anywhere. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm a new kid on the 14 block here. But I just think that would be amazing, and I 15 think that that's kind of what you're talking about. You 16 know, what does the Constitution require you guys to do, and 17 what have you added on? 18 MR. SMITH: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we would be 20 embarrassed at what we've added on to the taxpayers. 21 MR. BROWN: Yeah. But what we've also had is 22 that, beyond the Constitution, is all those mandates from 23 the Legislature that we all gripe about. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine. We spend 25 too much money. 5-9-05 jcc 43 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Indigent health care, 2 indigent defense. 3 MR. BROWN: What I'm saying is that it gets 4 in the Constitution, as you know. 5 MAYOR FINE: Well, you guys have a lot of 6 things added on you that we don't. I acknowledge that. A 7 lot of things you guys have to take care of that are not in 8 our scope. And, like Mr. Brown said earlier, the animal of 9 the county government is not a pleasant thing to have to 10 deal with, and some of the things you guys have to deal 11 with, I'm glad we have a staff that deals with what we -- 12 what we do have to deal with. But getting back to these 13 items here, it's the County's desire, then, to have 14 something similar to this put together and sit back down and 15 go through on our joint projects? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Personally, I would -- 17 MAYOR FINE: Okay. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I would like to have that. 19 MAYOR FINE: And then -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I find it very, very helpful. 21 MAYOR FINE: -- the EMS, I believe it's the 22 City's desire to let us know what level of service y'all 23 want, and give us an opportunity to basically bid on that or 24 give a price that we think we can provide that service for, 25 instead of -- 'cause it -- that is not truly a joint 5-9-05 jcc 44 1 project. I mean, we're a contractor. And I think it's in 2 our best interests of the City to provide -- this is what 3 it's going to cost us to do -- to provide the level of 4 service y'all want. And if you want -- if you want an 5 ambulance in Hunt, we'll -- we'll bid on putting an 6 ambulance in Hunt, manage that thing 24 hours a day. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Stephen, Mr. Wampler 8 and I met yesterday -- 9 MAYOR FINE: Right. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- over the issue, and 11 I will take it to the Commissioners Court, and we will come 12 out of Commissioners Court with something to present to you. 13 MAYOR FINE: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Very soon. 15 MAYOR FINE: And I would like to take a look 16 and get with the Court, maybe at that meeting, on looking a 17 little more in-depth at doing something with the Animal 18 Control, the property, the facility, and along with the 19 Community Recycle Center. I just think cleaning up some of 20 this stuff would be a very simple thing to do, and I think 21 it would be in our best interests to do that, and probably 22 y'all's. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's probably next 24 budget -- I mean, after the budget. 25 MAYOR FINE: Well, yeah, that's fine. But I 5-9-05 jcc 45 1 just think it's something that we do need to take another 2 look at, or take a -- a deeper look into, and -- and -- 3 'cause I don't think it's something that would affect either 4 one of our budgets greatly in doing some swapping there. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it's -- I would 6 recommend, really, the Commissioners Court and Council put 7 together a committee to do that, to look at those two 8 things. Otherwise, it's going to end up this time next 9 year, and we're going to -- 10 MAYOR FINE: Be talking about it again. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we don't have the 12 committee to start moving it forward. 'Cause the airport 13 was an example; it took months and months to get that 14 agreement, and so those two are similar. You know, the 15 facilities aren't similar, but the situations are similar. 16 MAYOR FINE: This will be more of a horse 17 trade than a -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, trading back and 19 forth, figuring out who owns what, what the values are, and 20 then figuring out how to, you know -- 21 MAYOR FINE: Yeah. That may be something 22 that would be easier to handle after budget; you're right. 23 MR. SMITH: Gene Smith again. One of the 24 things that I hear conflict, you're not getting timely 25 information for things. Well, that seems like it should be 5-9-05 jcc 46 1 something that should be resolved without any problems. You 2 say you -- I don't know when you have to do your budget or 3 when we have to do our budget, but it -- it seems like we 4 ought to work hand-in-glove on getting the information back 5 and forth in a timely manner. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I guess 7 the -- going back to the information thing, I guess the only 8 thing that we can hopefully ask you all to do, from my 9 standpoint, is to direct the City Manager that -- and Dave's 10 liaison to the library; you know, that they take the time, 11 and I'm sure they will, but to meet with Antonio, and a 12 little bit ahead of the budget book being prepared, so we 13 have a little more input and more understanding, and then we 14 can get back -- you know, that way -- because, as I said 15 earlier, the difference is that we are the city manager and 16 the elected official, so we don't have that staff. So the 17 City Manager has to be brought into the formula, from our 18 standpoint, on the budget process. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're at the same 20 point, Mayor Fine, as you are in terms of developing what 21 needs to be developed prior to really getting down and 22 prioritizing our budget. We've just put our first wave of 23 documents out to elected officials and department heads, and 24 we haven't gotten those back, so our process, like yours, is 25 just getting under way. 5-9-05 jcc 47 1 MAYOR FINE: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You know, we skipped 3 our face-to-face meeting last year, and so my memory is a 4 little foggy on what we did the prior year, but my point is 5 -- oh, I know we had the book, but whatever number of 6 meetings it takes to make us all understand -- I know we 7 don't like booking extra meetings just for the sake of 8 booking them, but if it takes a meeting to see the book, 9 have your staff step us through it, and another meeting to 10 ask the questions, and whatever it takes to get us to the 11 point of making a -- resolving the issues, I think, is 12 beneficial. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hear, hear. 14 MAYOR FINE: Well, I think there's 15 opportunities for questions to be answered outside of all 10 16 of us sitting down, too, and that's what I was trying to say 17 earlier. In my opinion, and the way Council's handled 18 things, you know, you're free to ask questions at any time. 19 I guess I'm saying the same thing. If y'all have -- if you 20 have some questions ahead of time, there's something that 21 just jumps out and glares at you, you can ask it before we 22 all sit down. I mean, I don't have a problem with that. Do 23 you have a problem with it, Don? Do you have a problem with 24 that? And I think that's kind of where I'm coming from. If 25 there's something that's really biting at you ahead of time, 5-9-05 jcc 48 1 we may be able to get an answer for it before we all sit 2 down for a meeting. And if there's something that you need 3 help understanding, or I need help understanding, let's get 4 it before we get into the meeting, and maybe the -- the 5 meeting can move along faster, be more productive than 6 having to go down and argue about some little bitty point in 7 there, when maybe it could have been handled earlier easier. 8 It may be something you understand that I don't, and may be 9 something I understand that you don't when I'm reading it. 10 So -- and I think it would make the process work a lot 11 better. And while all of us have lives filled with 12 meetings, I think we'd like to minimize those, if at all 13 possible. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 15 MAYOR FINE: And it was hard enough 16 scheduling this where all 10 of us could be here. I can't 17 imagine trying to do it on a weekly or biweekly or even a 18 monthly basis. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm not suggesting 20 that. 21 MAYOR FINE: I know, but I'm just saying, 22 even a monthly basis would be not -- not an easy task. 23 MR. SMITH: Gene Smith. Mr. Davis has 24 experience. He's a very experienced guy. He's been a lot 25 -- at a lot of places, and he might be able to bring his 5-9-05 jcc 49 1 experience to -- to be used to our advantage here somehow or 2 other. So -- 3 MS. DAVIS: That's just another way of saying 4 that I'm old, I think, isn't it? 5 MR. SMITH: Well, there's nothing wrong with 6 being old. (Laughter.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I gather that we've reached a 8 consensus as to how we're going to proceed forward from here 9 on trying to work on these issues? 10 MS. DAVIS: Judge, may I ask a question? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Certainly, Mr. Davis. 12 MS. DAVIS: Don Davis. Let me make a couple 13 of comments, I guess, and -- but mainly, I'm wanting some 14 clarification here. There may be an advantage with me being 15 new and totally and completely ignorant about the history of 16 most of these things, in that I can perhaps add some 17 objectivity. According to my notes and what little I know, 18 there -- there -- aside from the task force grant, there are 19 about eight services that are jointly participated in by the 20 two -- the two bodies, including the airport, which is 21 really kind of off the table now. That's, as I understand 22 it, been pretty well resolved. So, that leaves seven, and 23 three of those are managed or operated by the County, that 24 being the tax collection, animal control, and the jail. The 25 other four, then, are being managed and operated by the 5-9-05 jcc 50 1 City. What I'm hearing, I think, is that we -- we take 2 those programs that we are administering, and kind of look 3 at them from a proprietary standpoint, and say that, "Here's 4 what it costs to do this," where we can come up with some 5 common units or whatever the costing configuration is. But 6 then offer that to the other agency as -- you know, we're 7 the proprietor; here's what the cost of the service is, and 8 here's what it's going to cost you to take advantage of it. 9 And if that is the procedure I'm kind of hearing we want to 10 follow, then we'll -- we'll certainly do that. And on 11 behalf of the staff, we'll continue, if it's the pleasure of 12 the two bodies, to prepare these things. 13 The other thing I -- I'd like to ask is that 14 I will make myself available to the Commissioners, as well 15 as the Council, to answer any of the questions concerning 16 the information that you're given. I think that -- that, as 17 Mayor Fine or somebody mentioned, that if we can do that 18 ahead of these joint meetings, we can certainly be more -- 19 more time-productive, I think. I would like, however, for 20 the questions to come through my office, as opposed to going 21 directly to some of the department heads or others. I think 22 we need to be mindful that they've all got jobs they're 23 trying to do, and probably don't need interference from any 24 of us. So, we'll make -- I'll make myself available, as 25 much time as y'all need on an individual basis, to make sure 5-9-05 jcc 51 1 everybody understands the numbers. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That was the understanding I 3 had, Mr. Davis, that if -- if we had any questions ahead of 4 time, we can submit those to you. You, then, would run with 5 it from that point to try and find the answers for us, and 6 then, when we have our meeting, if there are additional 7 questions, why, we can raise those and hopefully get answers 8 there. But to the extent we have them ahead of time, it 9 would be helpful and efficient from a time standpoint -- 10 MS. DAVIS: Absolutely. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to do that up front. 12 MS. DAVIS: Be happy to. Thank you, Mayor. 13 MAYOR FINE: Well, and I think, for 14 clarification reasons, I mean, just like the tax collection, 15 animal control, and jail, we contract with you guys. That's 16 not -- to me, that's not joint projects. We don't have any 17 management in that. You guys are providing a service; we're 18 paying for that service, period. It's not something we can 19 walk into the jail and tell Rusty what's he's doing wrong, 20 because we don't have that ownership and participation 21 there, and I think it's the same thing for us with EMS and 22 fire. We're providing a service. That is not a joint 23 service. And -- and it doesn't mean you don't have the 24 right to know how we got our numbers or how we came about 25 those numbers, but I think the -- the point is, just like 5-9-05 jcc 52 1 with the services you provide and the services we provide, 2 they're numbers based upon what we have to have to provide 3 that, you know, so we at least break even on what we're 4 providing, just like y'all would do with tax collection, 5 animal control. You know, these aren't -- we're not in the 6 profit-making business. You know, we -- we do our best to 7 keep it where we can provide the service on a break-even 8 basis. I don't think anyone's trying to gouge the taxpayers 9 for extra money to go into some pot somewhere. Not that 10 there aren't funds that have to be established for replacing 11 equipment and that type of thing, which are necessary in all 12 of these. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the desire is to get 14 Recycling and Animal Control into that contractor 15 relationship. 16 MAYOR FINE: Right. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So that every -- all of 18 them, other than -- 19 MAYOR FINE: I think the library also needs 20 to get more along the lines of the airport. Like we said, I 21 think we can clean up a lot of animosities by getting 22 everything reduced to paper, and it would get the 23 personalities out of it and probably make it a lot more 24 efficient. 25 MR. WAMPLER: I think if we can do that, that 5-9-05 jcc 53 1 would resolve your concerns about your role as a manager in 2 trying to understand where Antonio and the rest of the staff 3 or Council -- and I didn't mean to -- you know, your point's 4 well-taken that the County needs to have some -- some say in 5 the management, but the fact is -- is that we're managing 6 it. We're managing the library for the relationship. And, 7 no doubt, the County needs to have some input in there. So, 8 the extent that we need to change that and move it in the -- 9 in the direction of the airport, I think, is -- is a good 10 idea. It's just -- I'm trying to -- want to clarify or get 11 you to clarify for me what your -- in the interim, what your 12 goal is with regard to information. Because, again, we 13 don't go directly to Antonio and say we want to talk to him 14 about his hopes and dreams for the library. That's kind of 15 synthesized through the budget process and through the 16 Council. We entreat everybody to kind of set priorities, 17 and that's how we do those things. So, if there's some way 18 that we could facilitate your input into the future of the 19 library, at least for the next budget year, we'd be happy to 20 do that until we can get it realigned along the lines of the 21 airport. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think we go 23 through the City Manager. I think the -- 24 MR. WAMPLER: That's what we do. Because, 25 you know, we don't, as a general rule, contact individual 5-9-05 jcc 54 1 department heads, because as Don said, you -- I mean, we've 2 kind of discharged their marching orders and their goals and 3 priorities for the year way in advance, and it's up to Don 4 and the City Manager to make sure that they're doing those 5 things. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Jon, I think the 7 library contract spells out that process. It says that the 8 -- a representative of the Commissioners Court and the 9 library director will submit a budget to both bodies before 10 July 1. It says they will meet and then submit a budget, so 11 that's what needs to be done very soon. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But, I mean, the 13 library -- I mean, you sit on that board, not me. But I 14 would think that the -- I don't know -- that the way it 15 should work is that the City Manager, you, and Antonio 16 should sit down soon and figure out where we're going, and 17 so that Antonio is aware of limitations that -- you know, 18 the County's very much aware that we're going to have a very 19 tight budget this year, and that input needs to get into the 20 process to every department early, early on, because, you 21 know, we put in a tax freeze and we have some other things 22 that may be coming out in the Legislature that, you know, 23 we're going to have a very hard time funding anything that 24 isn't absolutely necessary this year. And that's the kind 25 of information that needs to get to Antonio. It's like -- 5-9-05 jcc 55 1 you know, and I don't -- by "absolutely necessary," I don't 2 mean things that are wish list. I'm talking about replacing 3 equipment. I mean, Road and Bridge is a good example. We 4 spend a great deal of money on equipment. I don't see us 5 being able to do anything out there hardly this year. I 6 think we're going to have -- they're going to have to fix 7 those dump trucks one more year rather than getting anything 8 new. And so that's the kind of input, I think, and that's 9 how it needs to work, I think, the format outline. Working 10 with the City Manager should work. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, Mr. Mayor? 12 MAYOR FINE: I don't have anything, unless 13 Council have any -- okay. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any of you gentlemen on the 15 Court have anything you wish to -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Before we leave, I 17 just want to say that we have coffee and doughnuts. Do not 18 leave one in here. So, everybody do their part. We're 19 trying to come together and be one here. (Laughter.) So do 20 your part. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Over a doughnut. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Over a doughnut. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Appreciate your -- appreciate 24 your being here and working with us on this. 25 MAYOR FINE: I'm glad we're able to meet. 5-9-05 jcc 56 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, guys. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll stand adjourned. 3 (Joint meeting adjourned at 9:08 a.m.) 4 - - - - - - - - - - 5 6 STATE OF TEXAS | 7 COUNTY OF KERR | 8 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 9 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 10 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 11 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 12 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 10th day of May, 2005. 13 14 15 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 16 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 17 Certified Shorthand Reporter 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5-9-05 jcc