1 2 3 4 5 6 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 7 Special Session 8 (Reconvened from Monday, June 13, 2005) 9 and 10 COMMISSIONERS COURT JAIL/JUVENILE DETENTION WORKSHOP 11 Tuesday, June 13, 2005 12 1:30 p.m. 13 Commissioners' Courtroom 14 Kerr County Courthouse 15 Kerrville, Texas 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X June 14, 2005 2 PAGE 3 --- Commissioners Court Workshop Consider/discuss Jail, Detention & related issues 4 4 1.17 Approve placement contracts with El Paso County 5 and Cameron County, authorize County Judge to sign (Reconvened from June 13, 2005 meeting) 83 6 --- Adjourned 87 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-14-05 3 1 On Tuesday, June 14, 2005, at 1:30 p.m., the regular June 2 13, 2005 meeting the Kerr County Commissioners Court was 3 reconvened, and a workshop was also held in the Commissioners' 4 Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and the 5 following proceedings were had in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let me reconvene the 8 Commissioners Court which was posted and originally convened 9 on Monday, June 13th, 2005, at 9 a.m., and recessed 10 yesterday afternoon at approximately 3:40, and I'm going to 11 guesstimate thereabouts. We will reconvene that meeting. 12 In addition, I will call to order the Commissioners Court 13 workshop scheduled for this date, Tuesday, June 14th, 2005, 14 at 1:30 p.m. It's a bit past that now, so we've got both of 15 those open, and I think the subject du jour is the 16 consideration and discussion of jail and detention and 17 related issues. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What is the topic 19 left open on the recessed -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- well, actually, we can 21 go back to anything if we want to, but I think the principal 22 ones that we left it open for had to do with the El Paso, 23 and Cameron County, I believe, was the other one -- yes -- 24 placement contract for Juvenile Detention Facility. I 25 believe that was the pertinent one that was left open. 6-14-05 4 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: EMS contract left 2 open? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All of them are. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I think any subject that 5 was on the Monday, June 13th agenda is open, 'cause we 6 recessed to reconvene at 1:30 today, and that's the mode 7 that we're in right now. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You have to talk to 9 me, though; you can't talk to the other -- 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I see you over 11 there. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glad y'all got that all 13 straightened out. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We got it straight, 15 Commissioner Letz. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Jail and detention issues. I 17 believe the Sheriff has a report that he's prepared for us. 18 Do you want to lead off, Sheriff, and tell us about your 19 work? Incidentally, I want to thank you for all of your 20 effort on this report. It was some very interesting 21 reading, and looks as though you've spent a little time on 22 it. The first question to you is, did Clay do this, or did 23 you do it? 24 (Mr. Barton pointed at the Sheriff.) 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good 6-14-05 5 1 question, Judge. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's the right 3 answer. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. So far, we're batting a 5 thousand. We'll let you get on, Sheriff. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I know the Sheriff; 7 it's his language. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The problem was, I let 9 Clay review it, and it came back with so many red marks on 10 it that Nancy and I both ran him out of the office. So, you 11 know, I gave you an introduction on how long we've been in 12 the current facility. I think the report -- I hope -- is 13 pretty well self-explanatory, and I can more or less field 14 questions. I do feel that we are definitely in a situation 15 that is going to do nothing but get worse unless we address 16 it in some way, shape, or form. The first time that I 17 believe I'd mentioned jail overcrowding, or it was mentioned 18 in writing to the Court, was during our five-year strategic 19 plan that each Commissioner at that time had appointed a 20 member to, and we did it. And in that study -- in that plan 21 it said that we were at -- reaching maximum capacity at that 22 time, which the report was actually issued May of 2002. So, 23 we've had some notice; it's just grown a little bit 24 stronger. 25 And when I visited with Mr. Woods -- Brandon 6-14-05 6 1 Woods, who is the Director of Jail Operations for the State 2 Jail Commission, the other day, he said -- I commented to 3 him, "Well, at least, you know, we've got a good 4 relationship with the Court, and I think everybody's on top 5 of it this time, and I think we're -- we won't be behind the 6 curve and we're not waiting too late." And his response to 7 me was, "I think you're already waiting too long." And that 8 kind of opened my eyes even a little bit more than what I 9 had. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Who was this? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Brandon Woods. He is 12 the Director of Jail Operations for the State Commission on 13 Jail Standards. He came out; we toured our current facility 14 and we toured the current juvenile -- new building facility 15 the other day, last week, which is all incorporated in this. 16 The tabs in here, the second tab -- or the first tab right 17 behind it is a Facility Needs Analysis that I requested from 18 the State Jail Commission to give us some ideas of how they 19 felt our jail was doing and our population and that. You'll 20 see that their population scales on it are a little bit 21 lower than what I have shown y'all, what I have given you in 22 population reports. Their analysis went through April. 23 They only went to May 1, and May was a very high month for 24 us, in my opinion. This was an average, and when you look 25 through those pages, you can see they even have an 6-14-05 7 1 introduction to it which tells you what's on which page. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Rusty? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes, sir? 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I really don't care 5 what they think. I want to know -- we had talked briefly 6 recently about the possibility of you taking over part of 7 the juvenile facility and initiating a work release-type 8 program. Where are -- where is that in your thinking? 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I still believe very 10 strongly in the work program. I think it could be extremely 11 beneficial to this county in a number of ways, mainly 12 manhours. I know Jonathan had talked about even mowing the 13 airport, which is -- the County pays a lot. This 14 Legislature has expanded the ability to use inmate labor in 15 some other areas, like 501(c)(3) nonprofit organizations, as 16 long as the Commissioners Court finds that that certain 17 organization does provide a public service to the county, 18 and then we can use inmate labor for that. We can also use 19 them at most of the cemeteries now, with the way a lot of 20 that is. The problem in doing it out at that facility, we 21 do have currently -- and I printed my reports today -- 22 probably about 90 -- between 80 and 90 inmates that are 23 classified as minimum risk, minimum security inmates. 24 Now, there's a lot of different factors, and 25 there's a tab in that book that tells you what the factors 6-14-05 8 1 are that have to be used in -- in how you classify the 2 inmates and what can be used. I would say about half of 3 those that are minimum classified could actually be used, 4 okay? The other ones are not people I would want to -- to 5 necessarily use, even though their classification fits. So, 6 I think we could come up with a work force of about 40 7 inmates pretty easy, 40 or 48 inmates. It would take a 8 little bit of additional staff on 8:00 to 5:00 Monday 9 through Friday, as far as being guards for those staff. It 10 does not have to be a deputy sheriff; it can be a jailer 11 that is trained in that. It's just more of a personality 12 deal, working people right. The jails that I've talked to, 13 Smith County, Wilson County, said in working that large a 14 crew -- Smith County does work that large of a crew, and 15 they said about once a year they will have two or three walk 16 off; said there's no way you're going to get around it. 17 That's why it's very important -- and there's 18 even -- what Smith County uses is kind of an application, 19 you might call it. There's an interview that they go 20 through with the inmate before they put him in that work 21 crew. The difference with that is -- is they are at a 22 definite minimum classification. A lot of them are drug 23 offenses or something like that, and the Jail Commission 24 does not consider that an escape, which could hurt you; they 25 consider that a walk-away, and you will have that happen. 6-14-05 9 1 But I think it could be an extremely beneficial program. 2 Running it out of the juvenile -- the new building of the 3 juvenile facility, for the other reasons that I've stated, 4 security running the facility, the -- the high staffing that 5 it would take to be able to use that facility for that, and 6 the fact in the whole picture of overcrowding, it would only 7 add 48 inmates to our capacity, will not work. We could run 8 it out of our current facility, I think, a lot better. It's 9 just going to be the staffing and the ability. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What I'd like to do 11 is to -- is to jump to -- based on Rusty's research, jump to 12 his findings and work backwards, and let me explain what I 13 -- what I've got in mind. If you take the best economic 14 case, we'd do two things. One, we'd close the old juvenile 15 detention facility and use the new 24-bed facility for 16 preadjudicated only, and that would save a million dollars a 17 year from -- or even Rusty from what's going to happen if we 18 keep what we're doing now. Second thing is, we'd build a 19 144-bed addition, and that would cost somewhere around 20 1.2 million a year, and for some period of time we would be 21 able to recoup essentially all that cost by housing out -- 22 out-of-county prisoners. And we've learned from experience 23 that doesn't -- that that doesn't go on forever. Doesn't 24 last forever, but those are your two best cases, doing those 25 two. 6-14-05 10 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In my personal opinion, 2 yes, but the staffing part of that, as far as the adult 3 facility, as I explained to you, Commissioner, would be in 4 increments. I would not recommend building a 144-bed 5 addition to our current jail and staffing it for 144 beds 6 immediately. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we did those two 8 things, if we could drop that 144-bed facility in there 9 tomorrow, our cost for the next fiscal year would not -- 10 would not go up. We'd save a million at the juvenile 11 facility; we'd spend a million at the adult facility. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that doesn't -- that 13 million in the adult doesn't -- does that cover debt? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's the operating 15 budget. And Becky may want to -- to speak to that a little 16 bit more, because by what I saw and what was furnished to me 17 by the Judge and that, her -- her operating budget projected 18 for that facility right now is 2.6 million, is what was 19 turned in for Commissioners Court consideration. Of that, 20 the Judge and I -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For which facility? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For her juvenile 23 detention Facility, the budget she turned in, okay? The -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's for both 25 facilities, fully staffed; is that correct? 6-14-05 11 1 MS. HARRIS: That's correct. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We only have one 3 operated now, and not both fully staffed. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And your other one's 5 full, that she reported yesterday to Commissioners Court. 6 The operating budget, 2.6 million there, also does not 7 include the debt service that the County currently absorbed 8 for the next five years of 400-something thousand, so that 9 goes on top of that operating budget. Her salaries alone in 10 that operating budget are a little over 2 million -- 11 2.1 million. My understanding -- and I'm not trying to be 12 ugly to Becky or anything else. I've stated several times 13 that I think we need a juvenile facility, and my statements 14 more or less in this part of it are not me as Sheriff; it's 15 more me as a taxpayer, is what I'm looking at. But the way 16 I see that and the way it was explained to me is, she has to 17 have -- is if she has both pre and postadjudicated 18 juveniles, she has to have separate staff for those. 19 Separate for pre, separate for post. 20 If you do away with the post, you cut that 21 staff in half, and you can still have 24 beds in that new 22 facility to house preadjudicated juveniles for this county. 23 And 24 beds, I think, would also be -- allow you enough to 24 house for the surrounding counties, kind of like what we do 25 with the adult jail, for a certain length of time, however 6-14-05 12 1 long that would last, but doing it pre's. This county has 2 had a history of housing our own postadjudicated juveniles 3 out of the county, which you do get partial reimbursement 4 from the State. Now, when I was out there the other day, 5 there was three postadjudicated juveniles. She reported to 6 the Commissioners yesterday that there was five. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff, what you're 8 overlooking in that -- in that dissertation, however, in 9 analyzing expenses of the juvenile facility, that operating 10 it at full capacity, 76 residents and two buildings, okay, 11 your expense load is, as you noted, 2.6. But what you 12 didn't note is that the revenue side is 2.8. -- 2.4, so the 13 operating deficit there comes out to about $122,000 plus 14 debt service. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Plus the 400-something. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which is already part 17 of the county budget. The debt service, that's already 18 equated into the county budget. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right, but the proposal 20 that I had made especially for the expansion at the adult 21 facility already includes that debt service on top of 22 everything else, too. Not added in afterwards. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think this -- we need 24 to remember how we got where we are a little bit. We 25 basically have a million dollars that we paid for the 6-14-05 13 1 juvenile facility, you know. At the time it was refinanced, 2 the debt was about 1.9 million. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- I mean on the old 5 facility. And the original facility still -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: No, it was over two. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was over two? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Based on the financial 11 analysis, it says it was 1.972. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which facility? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The old. I mean, if you 14 look at the difference, what was the outstanding balance on 15 the old facility at the time it was refinanced, -- 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, okay. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- it was about 1.9, 18 2 million. So, basically, we're -- our debt service at that 19 juvenile facility is basically the same as it was before we 20 built anything new. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That's pretty close. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it's a couple 23 hundred thousand, maybe. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The money -- so I think 6-14-05 14 1 that it is -- you really almost need to look at the 2 operational standpoint. I mean, if you look at it that way, 3 we have that new facility at almost no cost. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's exactly right. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You know, no -- no 6 capital cost. So I think that's a -- you know, the way you 7 need to look at it, because that kind of opens up any kind 8 of -- you know, the horizon of options that we can do with 9 that building, because we really didn't spend anything for 10 it. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's exactly right, 12 Commissioner. And -- and if you mix the debt service, as 13 the Sheriff has done in his analysis here, you are, in fact, 14 mixing apples and oranges, if you're mixing it in. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My analysis is not mixed 16 at the juvenile -- it is mentioned in there, in the 17 analysis, with any addition to the current adult jail. It 18 is figured in with that. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think -- you know, 20 to follow up on that, I think, you know, everyone -- I won't 21 say everyone. Most people in the room seem to have 22 expressed an interest that we need to keep a juvenile 23 facility open in this county. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Including the 25 Sheriff. 6-14-05 15 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And Sheriff. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm saying. 4 It pretty much may just be a preadjudicated, but we need 5 some sort of a facility, which is what we are going to -- 6 you know, we'd be paying the same amount of debt service as 7 we're currently paying to do that. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And what we 9 understand is that the inconvenience of not having it -- a 10 juvenile facility has got to do with preadjudicated almost 11 entirely. The postadjudicated don't -- don't come back and 12 forth like the preadjudicated. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The down side to 15 that, however, is on the revenue side. When you're dealing 16 only in pre, you're dealing with a roller coaster revenue 17 stream, where if you're dealing in pre and post, the post is 18 a -- is a constant revenue stream based on your census, 19 because they're there from six months to a year, where the 20 pre's are in and out; they're in and they're out. So, 21 there's a difference in there in terms of revenue side. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The only problem that I 23 have with that is that when we're dealing with post, and the 24 way we're dealing with postadjudicated juveniles right now, 25 and with being what you said, 2.4 to 2.6 on -- on cost, is 6-14-05 16 1 if we continue to deal with post, then myself and all of us 2 as taxpayers are supporting, as I wrote in there, and having 3 to supplement these other counties that are housing their 4 post here. We're paying part of our tax dollars for them to 5 house their post, because the reimbursement is not that 6 much, and our income is not that much. I, personally -- and 7 this is me, personally. I don't mind, just like we do at 8 the adult jail, helping out our surrounding counties, but 9 it's not my desire for my tax dollars to help pay El Paso, 10 Coryell, Bexar, or any other county for their juveniles to 11 be in this county. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I don't disagree, 13 but I'm not convinced that what you're saying is accurate. 14 I think of the -- the costs -- you know, forget the new 15 facility out there. Before -- several years ago, when this 16 facility was making money, we had post and preadjudicated 17 out there, and we had a full facility, basically. I mean, 18 we were -- I mean, we -- you know, that's how it was 19 operating. So, we know that there were some funding 20 changes, but my desire has all along been to minimize the 21 cost to the taxpayers of Kerr County. We're going to spend 22 money on our preadjudicated and our postadjudicated, so I've 23 always tried to look at this as, what is going to cost us 24 the least? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's exactly the 6-14-05 17 1 way I look at it. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you're saying that 3 it's the preadjudicated only, which is going to basically 4 mean that we're going to -- there's no way for us to make 5 any revenue back. We're just going to be Kerr County kids, 6 which we're going to spend -- you know, we're going to have 7 to staff it at a certain level, and we're going to have a -- 8 a continuous long-term outflow of funds in that area, you 9 know. I had thought that -- based on earlier analysis, that 10 if we filled up the balance of the beds in that facility 11 with postadjudicated, that would lessen that amount. You're 12 telling me it's not, so I have to look at Ms. Harris to find 13 that out. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: My understanding would 15 be that if you fill it with post, yes, you're getting 16 revenue in, but your expenses are still higher than the 17 revenue, which means you and I are paying part of that 18 difference in there. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It depends what that 20 difference is. I mean, yeah, your revenue -- your expenses 21 may be higher, but your revenue is increased. What's that 22 differential? That's what you got to look at. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. But, to me -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's the differential 25 at the end of the year. 6-14-05 18 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: To me, the thing is, a 2 differential is a differential. If I'm having to supplement 3 El Paso's kids or any of the other counties, I don't think 4 it's right. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, Sheriff, you 6 can make the same analysis -- 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: As I stated in here, you 8 know, if the County chose to -- to raise the -- the cost to 9 El Paso or one of those counties for housing their kids to 10 where that would bring that revenue back up, and to where 11 Kerr County citizens aren't paying for that housing, then I 12 have -- you know, personally, I'd never have a problem with 13 that. We're helping kids out there. But if it costs the 14 taxpayers here, why should we pay it and not El Paso pay it? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you need to look 16 at your scale, how it operates, make sure we're not 17 subsidizing other counties. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We aren't -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the same point 20 I was going to make. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You can make that point, 22 but we do not. Tommy can tell you that our cost is just a 23 little bit above break-even on what it costs for us to house 24 inmates. In the analysis I made here, if you wanted to fill 25 that thing totally up, or if you wanted to put -- if you add 6-14-05 19 1 the 144 beds -- and this is all just figuring. I can't tell 2 you how long we could house this many. But if you started 3 out with 80 inmates a year you're housing for other 4 counties, it's right at almost a $1.2 million revenue on 5 those, which is -- then your actual cost of staffing and 6 everything else is about 1.1 totally, including the debt 7 service in that, and you're not going in the hole. It's not 8 that reverse deal that we're doing now. The other thing is, 9 on postadjudicated, the State does reimburse the counties 10 for part of that. They don't reimburse the counties for any 11 of the preadjudicated. 12 MS. HARRIS: They don't reimburse on every 13 post. Depends on the classification. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And that's exactly why 15 it went from years ago to where they could house a lot of 16 post and make money off those posts and bring the revenues 17 up higher, but when the State changed their structuring rate 18 on how the kids are classified and what revenue levels you 19 get and that, that's when the revenues went down. And my 20 understanding of everything I've heard for the last eight 21 months in this court is that's part of the reason the 22 facility went under. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do we have a revenue 24 forecast for '05-'06 for the juvenile facility? 25 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 6-14-05 20 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What is it? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Depending on how many 3 beds you're talking about. Are you talking about a full 4 bore of 48? You're talking about 48 in one building, right? 5 You're looking at -- hold on -- 1.67 million, a deficit of 6 588. If you're looking at 72 beds, the full thing, you're 7 talking about 2.480 -- say 2.5 against expenditures of 2.6, 8 or a $122,000 deficit. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: In that number, how are 10 you using -- or how is Becky using Kerr County kids? Is it 11 counted in the revenue, and then -- 12 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's counted on the 14 revenue side? 15 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you have to -- 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You would have to deduct 18 that one. So far this year, it's $95,000. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, it has to be 20 counted on the revenue side, because you're engaging in 21 expenditures to keep those kids there and do their -- 22 whatever you do to try to rehabilitate them. The expense is 23 there, so it has to -- they have to have the offsetting 24 revenue. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But what I'm saying -- 6-14-05 21 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where the revenue 2 comes from, the Sheriff's trying to make a point that it's a 3 shell game here. I'm not sure I like that analogy, but we 4 fund the Juvenile Probation Department for "X" number of 5 dollars a year for all of its activities, including housing 6 Kerr County kids, and so if Kerr County kids end up out 7 there, Juvenile Probation has to pass that money over. 8 Kevin Stanton sat right in the office the other day not too 9 long ago with Commissioner Baldwin and I and offered to -- 10 to work with the Auditor to take those funds out of his 11 budget and direct them right straight over to the facility. 12 So, it's not really a shell game. You got to put -- you got 13 to put the money -- the revenue where the expense is, and 14 you got to account for the expenses of keeping the kids. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I think another item 16 in -- in connection with that is that some funds that come 17 into the Juvenile Probation Department budget are special 18 state funds for alternative housing, and the -- the 19 appropriation comes to Juvenile Probation, and I think 20 that's, at least in part, why this conduit is used that way. 21 But -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: According -- 23 JUDGE TINLEY: -- there's some state funds 24 there too that come in that can be used for pre's. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, according to Kevin 6-14-05 22 1 Stanton, the preadjudicated get no state funds; that that is 2 all Kerr County money that was budgeted to the Probation 3 Department and then billed from the Juvenile Detention 4 Center to the Probation Department, and goes back into the 5 General Fund of Kerr County. Now, that analogy of shell 6 game, that's the only way I could see it. That's the only 7 way I feel it is, that we're just shuffling the same money 8 around. But it is not -- I don't understand the logic -- or 9 any logic of thinking that that could be considered as 10 revenue for that facility. It started out -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It has to be, because 12 the expenses are there. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Then you need to take it 14 out of what you're saying that facility is making. If 15 you're saying that facility's making this county 16 $2.4 million, it's not, because over 100,000 -- well, it's 17 95,000 so far this year -- started out Kerr County money, 18 and ended right back up to being Kerr County money. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's money that has 20 to be spent. I mean, it's -- 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why I say keep 22 the preadjudicated there. Okay. The whole deal -- I tried 23 to bring some light on some subjects. I tried to be honest, 24 open about it. This is -- as I've also stated in there, I 25 don't want this workshop to get sidetracked from what our -- 6-14-05 23 1 what I feel our problem is, which is adult detention right 2 now. But as I've stated in there, you know, and I've told 3 each one of y'all that it's not my dream, intent, desire, or 4 anything else to add one more bed onto that adult facility, 5 or really one more staff as long as I'm Sheriff. I'd like 6 to retire and somebody else have to deal with that. But it 7 doesn't work that way, 'cause the more beds, the more staff, 8 the more problems, is about how it ends up being. But we're 9 at a situation that I feel that if I just sat back -- and 10 we've already, two weeks ago, borrowed 15 mattresses from 11 Gillespie County. Two weeks ago, we had six inmates 12 sleeping on the floor. That I feel we're at a point where I 13 don't have a choice any more; I feel we do have to add -- 14 Jail Commission's recommendation is 96 beds. 15 If you look at that Facility Needs Analysis, 16 they say that will last us till the year 2025, and the Jail 17 Commission's recommendation on the current facility that we 18 have was 192 beds, and that would last 20 years -- 15 to 20 19 years. We're nine years into that, and we're looking at 20 having to add on. So, I had done my analysis and my part of 21 this report before I received the Jail Commission's report 22 from them, and I do not feel like changing mine. I feel 23 like mine's a little bit more accurate in -- in real numbers 24 and real figures, after my 25 years experience working with 25 the jail in this county, as to what we're going to see. And 6-14-05 24 1 I think you're going to come close to trying to make it to 2 the year 2025, and I really don't think it will make -- I 3 think you're going to need at least 144 beds in that 4 facility. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. On the -- so, 6 you're -- what would you like? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's not what I would 8 like. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What you're recommending 10 is that we do nothing from your standpoint with the juvenile 11 facility, old or new, and we embark on a bond issue to add 12 on to the jail? That's what you're saying you think we need 13 to do? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: For staffing purposes 15 and to keep my employee ratio from going up too high real 16 quick to staff a whole 'nother building, which I think would 17 definitely be uneconomical, because your staff costs will 18 always be there and they're always high, and the number of 19 -- of staff we'd have to add to just run a 48-bed facility 20 out away from us, compared to the number of staff we'd have 21 to add to run a 48-bed facility addition onto ours, yes, I 22 think we need to add on to the current jail. I think 23 security issues, staffing issues, just the overall economic 24 costs of taking over that facility out there is definitely 25 not worth it to the taxpayers, in my opinion. 6-14-05 25 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What are you going to do 2 in the next three years? 'Cause this is going to take three 3 years to do this. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's why I'm glad 5 we're starting where we are. At least right now, we're 6 trying. I really don't know, okay? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But we have to -- 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think -- like I said 9 in here in talking about the work program, I think if we get 10 a work program going real well and strongly, that does help. 11 It will not help much, but it will help, because your -- 12 your people that are already through the court system, 13 instead of -- say they're sitting a year in the county jail. 14 If we have that person out working, he's going to get 15 two-thirds good time, because he gets a lot more time if 16 he's working. If he is just sitting in a bed taking up 17 space in that county jail, as long as he's not being a 18 problem inmate, he's getting one-third good time. So, 19 you're -- you're actually giving them more good time, 20 because you are getting work out of them, thus you're 21 running those people through your system quicker and opening 22 up beds sooner. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Rusty, if you start 24 this -- 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Whether this will last 6-14-05 26 1 us two or three years, I don't know. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If you put that work 3 program in place, just guess how many fewer prisoners you'd 4 have a year or two from now. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I honestly think if we 6 put a good, strong work program into place, I think the 7 public impression of that and other people's impression, 8 just on what we've learned off our program now, with the -- 9 with these younger kids and these guys out there in black 10 and white stripes working here at the courthouse and 11 different areas, I think there's some impact that I could 12 have that I could never figure. All I could do is pray and 13 hope that they're very positive, 'cause I think they are 14 with the younger kids. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But it would -- some 16 of the men and women who are there today wouldn't be there a 17 year from now because they were participating in the work 18 program? 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That's right. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So there's a 21 handful? A dozen? Or -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And you can ask Bobby 23 Johnson. Some of ours -- the one thing we've found is we've 24 had less repeat offenders when they've been on that work 25 program than if they aren't, so I think the more we get in 6-14-05 27 1 there, the less repeat offenders we'll have, the quicker 2 time they're getting credit for that when we run them there, 3 and you're going to open up beds. I couldn't tell you how 4 many. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I guess -- well, 6 first of all, I want the work program, and I'll do 7 everything I can to fund that, but you need to get that done 8 in this next year's budget. That may be cheap talk, 'cause 9 there may not be any money to do that, but I think we really 10 need to do that. But going back to your issue, is that the 11 -- with that being said, and assuming the Court goes along 12 with that, which I think Commissioner Nicholson seems to 13 like the program. I haven't talked to the rest of the 14 Commissioners. What timetable do you want to pursue for a 15 jail? Because you're saying -- I mean, I'm guessing three 16 years. I suspect three years is pretty realistic, by the 17 time we make the decision that we're going to go to the 18 voters with a bond issue, before you get a jail. And we 19 can't go to the voters until we get -- and we have to hire 20 some kind of an architect or something; we have to have 21 something for them to vote on. And we may have enough 22 numbers already that are active enough. We're just adding 23 on to the jail, so we can maybe avoid that expense. But at 24 what point do you think we need to go to the voters? 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, Commissioner, the 6-14-05 28 1 reason I sat down and we took so much time to try and 2 prepare for this workshop instead of coming in and us having 3 to have a number of workshops to get something figured out 4 is because I do feel it's at a stage that we need to start 5 acting now. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you think we need to 7 schedule a bond issue this fall? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I think we need to -- 9 having gone through this before, we need to get the 10 architect or some consultants and figure out a good cost of 11 it, because what I have figured in here is what one 12 architect told me several months ago, that the cost of 13 adding to a jail is about $50,000 per bed. But the Director 14 of Jail Operations told me the other day that you could 15 actually look at it anywhere from the mid-30's up to 50,000, 16 depending on how fancy and fabulous you want to get and what 17 all else you're going to add to your jail. So, if we're 18 just adding dormitory-type cells -- and there would have to 19 be a few single cells to keep the ratio in, but not very 20 much, but if we're adding dormitory-type cells into that 21 deal, I -- off, you know, the cost of it, I think -- I think 22 the costs that I've quoted in here at 50,000 a bed would be 23 high. I think we could drop that cost, and we need some 24 real figures to be able to -- to go to the citizens with. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you take the jail 6-14-05 29 1 standards and the fact that we're probably one of the most 2 expensive counties in the state to build in right now -- 3 which we are; extremely expensive construction costs in the 4 in the hill country, not just Kerr County but in Kendall 5 County -- we're going to be pushing the $50, I would expect. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: 50,000. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Or $50,000, not $50. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Sheriff, there was some 9 legislation that had been filed, and I frankly don't know 10 what the ultimate outcome was, dealing with the reduction of 11 square footage space that -- 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It failed. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: -- was required. Okay. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I -- in fact, I found 15 that out, Your Honor, just a few minutes ago. Because one 16 of the few issues -- and this is something y'all may all 17 look at. I just got mine today, okay? And in this issue of 18 County Progress, there is a very good article about the 19 state of Texas and our jails. It gives the average 20 population -- or the population report for every county 21 inside the state of Texas, what their county jails are 22 looking at, what they're doing. It gives a few pages over 23 the -- there are 60 counties that are looking at adding jail 24 space right now. There are 74 counties that are housing out 25 of county, and it lists all those. Some of them are in the 6-14-05 30 1 process of already adding. Some aren't. It talks about -- 2 the article itself from Terry Julian talks about the female 3 housing issue in the state and how it is exploding, and 4 everybody's overcrowded with females. We're going to have 5 more and more problems with that, and we're already getting 6 real close to the max. So, it is a very good article, and I 7 would recommend everybody look at it. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sheriff, what are the 9 Jail Standards requirements for a work release program, for 10 the housing of work release people versus your normal 11 run-of-the-mill incarcerated folk? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay, there's two 13 different programs. First you have to look at -- one's a 14 work release and one's a work program. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, tell me about 16 both. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. The work program 18 is an inmate classified as minimum security, that he is an 19 inmate, period; he's going to be an inmate the whole time. 20 And because of his classification, then you can take him out 21 and do manual labor, and the -- under the Work Programs tab, 22 it says -- there's an article first about -- I believe it 23 was Upshur County or Eastland County on their additions, 24 they're using inmate labor, but there is -- under -- sorry, 25 it's under the law one. The first deal under the law tab, 6-14-05 31 1 which is a House Bill that went through this year. It's 2 sitting on the governor's desk as we speak. I haven't heard 3 that he has signed it yet. I expect that he will, as 4 everybody else expects he will. The only part that has been 5 added to that, to the law -- this is actually out of the 6 Code of Criminal Procedure, is the part that is underlined. 7 Everything else that is not underlined was already what we 8 could do with manual labor, and that's manual labor out of 9 an inmate. What is underlined is they are now adding the 10 503(c) nonprofit organizations, as long as I request of the 11 Commissioners Court -- before I take inmates out to work at 12 one, I have to bring it to the Commissioners Court. Y'all 13 would have to find that that organization does provide a 14 public service, and you could authorize inmate labor going 15 out and doing work there. The other one is -- is that if 16 the County expends any funds on keeping up cemeteries or 17 anything like that, inmate labor can be used to maintain 18 those cemeteries. And the other part of that is -- which 19 really would throw in all the cemeteries, just about, is any 20 cemetery that has a grave marker that's older than 50 years 21 old, the inmates may be used to maintain that cemetery. So, 22 it's kind of a different deal, but that's how that works on 23 inmate labor. There's a lot of projects we can use. 24 Inmate work release program is a different 25 animal, in that what happens there is that the inmate is 6-14-05 32 1 sentenced to jail by either a District Judge or a County 2 Court at Law Judge. It can be for a felony or a 3 misdemeanor, as long as it's nonviolent or any of that type 4 stuff. Same process for the work program, except that I 5 have to send the District Judge a classification report and 6 everything on that particular inmate, and then the District 7 or County Judge must order that that inmate be released to 8 participate in a work release program. In talking to Smith 9 County, they have both. They say their work release program 10 has pretty well died on the vine; it's never gotten off. 11 Now, they use the work program extensively and work their 12 inmates. In visiting with them, what they feel happened 13 with the work release program is there weren't very many 14 judges that wanted to take on the liability of ordering a 15 Sheriff to release this inmate to go to work. In black and 16 white, that's about what it is. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That's essentially a program 18 where the inmate spends his night in jail, but he's released 19 in the morning to go to his regular job or employment, 20 reports back in that same evening and spends the night in 21 jail. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Just like the jail were his 24 home, but otherwise free to move around. 25 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 6-14-05 33 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay, you know my 2 question. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: But he only gets good 4 time for the actual time spent in jail, okay? So if he's 5 got a year sentence, he's going to spend a greater portion 6 of that year than that inmate in your regular work program 7 that is getting that good time for, you know, every minute 8 he's there. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, would you 10 basically categorize each of these two programs -- the 11 inmates, would you categorize them as minimum security? 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You have to. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In both situations? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You have to. You cannot 15 do them any other way than minimum security. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. My question to 17 you, then, is, what are the requirements -- what would the 18 requirements be -- I know you can't ascertain the costs, 19 except maybe seat-of-the-pants, but what would the 20 requirements be to take, for example, the 48-bed facility 21 and convert it to a work release or work program facility to 22 house minimum security people? That's my question. 23 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. Under T.C.J.S. 24 Juvenile Requirements tab in your book, you'll see exactly 25 from the Jail Commission what they state must be done to 6-14-05 34 1 convert that facility. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What tab and what 3 page are we looking at? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's the second tab in 5 your book, first page on the second tab. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: First page, second 7 tab. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It states, "Texas 9 Commission on Jail Standards" at the very top of it. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Those are the things 12 that they first say would have to be done or to accomplish, 13 and there is one situation in there which I would not be 14 comfortable with at all. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that would be? 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That would be if we take 17 all the cell doors off to make it suitable, square footage 18 wise, to house 48 inmates. I'm not comfortable with that 19 security level. I'm not comfortable with having to have a 20 corrections officer -- because at the bottom of this, 21 they're saying two employees, one for your control room, 22 five for the 48, which five is what it takes for one around 23 the clock. You'd have one employee walking that dormitory 24 area inside that new facility. He has to go into the 25 cellblock hourly to have his visual check of every inmate. 6-14-05 35 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Excuse me. You said 2 the new facility? 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: In the new building. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm talking about the 5 old building. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The old building? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I have not looked at the 9 old building. The old building has a tin roof. The first 10 time we did look at it several months ago, it would not 11 satisfy at all, even for minimum security. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: But your going to a 13 48-bed would put an officer -- a jailer in jeopardy? 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You would put -- 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: He'd be -- he or she 16 would be locked in with -- 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You would put a jailer 18 in jeopardy doing his rounds, because he has to put himself 19 with a key between 16 inmates and the door. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And at that point, those 22 inmates could, in about half a second, take control of that 23 entire facility, and you could have 48 inmates get released 24 real quick and jail personnel get hurt. That, to me, would 25 not even be consider -- considerable, nor should be 6-14-05 36 1 considered in that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you don't think -- 3 it's not a viable option? 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Not in my opinion, no. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But that's talking 6 about the new building. You're speaking now to the new 7 building? 8 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The new building. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The old building is not 11 usable for adults. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Because of the roof? 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Because of the roof and 14 the way it was constructed to begin with, and the 15 ventilation system. I would have to go back -- I think I 16 brought the original deal from before, if I can remember 17 what they had to say about that, 'cause we toured both of 18 them last time, and they said the old building wouldn't be 19 -- be able to be used at all. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In its current state? 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: They said the only way 22 this was -- I have to go back and think of which Jail 23 Commission inspector it was who said if you want to use that 24 old building, you might as well bulldoze it down and build 25 it from the ground up. 6-14-05 37 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- it seems to me 2 that -- I mean, you're -- you're saying the juvenile 3 facility doesn't work, old or new. We've told you that -- 4 or some of us have told you that we want a work program. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I want a work program. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you want a work 7 program. And the question, then, is timing to hire an 8 architect. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Now, I will tell you the 10 new facility will work with some modifications if you only 11 wanted to house the 24 people in there. And 24 people will 12 not save you at all on out-of-county -- on -- 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to vote a 14 96 or a 144, but I've got a question for you, Commissioners. 15 What's -- what's the voters' inclination on things like 16 this? Is this a slam-dunk? Do they never pass? How do you 17 sell that? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a tough sell. 19 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It's a tough sell. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: He'll have to sell it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He'll have to sell it. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The first time we went 23 to the voters to build that facility out there now, it 24 failed. The second time, it did pass. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But there's a -- it 6-14-05 38 1 passed, but there -- it didn't pass -- well, the 2 construction phase left a lot of people very upset. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I remember that. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So there's -- I mean, I 7 think you're going to -- adding onto that facility is going 8 to resurrect a lot of that, and -- you know, and not -- 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, one of the 10 biggest -- to me, one of the biggest problems with getting 11 it past the voters at this time is, number one, when we 12 built that facility, we did exactly what happens every time, 13 okay? The voters, the Jail Commission, everybody said it's 14 going to last 15, 20 years, and in nine years now, we're 15 going back to the voters to add on. That is the main reason 16 the Jail Commission and I differ on the number of beds, 17 okay? Now, true, by the time -- if we add 96 beds, I'd be 18 retired in a few years before that ever comes out that we're 19 out of space. But if this county wants to make it permanent 20 and be -- be honest with the voters that it may truly last 21 15 to 20 years, you'd better go with 144 beds, or it's not 22 going to work, and do what the voters thought we were going 23 to do when we originally opened that current building, which 24 was immediately house out-of-county inmates until we got to 25 the point we couldn't. There were several years there 6-14-05 39 1 that -- that there were not very many out-of-county inmates 2 housed in that facility, and should have been. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- the 4 argument about housing out-of-county prisoners to help pay 5 for it is very shaky. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Out-of-county prisoners 7 is an even cut. It really is, okay? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The history of this 9 county has not been that it was a very good deal. And I 10 think -- 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right now. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it may be in the 13 last few years, but that's a nine-year-old facility. And 14 the first several years, for whatever reason -- I mean, I'm 15 not -- 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The one thing you do 17 have is the population reports in the County Progress 18 magazine issued by the Jail Standards, and in those that are 19 looking at adding on or doing anything else, they do have, 20 like, Bandera County listed in here, but they have no work, 21 no nothing done. They aren't even thinking about it, I 22 guess, at this time. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, yes, they are. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, they've been 25 thinking about it, but I don't know that anything is going 6-14-05 40 1 through by this report, and from what I've heard, they're 2 housing right now 42 inmates out of county. Fredericksburg, 3 I was surprised; they're only housing about 13 inmates out 4 of county right now, and they're housing them up in Comanche 5 County. And the other thing is the cost. Now, it does cost 6 everybody to house inmates out of county. While we were in 7 the construction phase of the current jail we're at now, I 8 believe the County was budgeting anywhere from -- I don't 9 know if Tommy's here. It was anywhere from -- depending on 10 the month and the year, from 300,000 to 600,000 a year on 11 out-of-county housing. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What's the down side 13 to just keeping our current capacity and eating the cost of 14 housing prisoners out of county? 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, we billed -- first 16 year I took office -- second year, I guess, we billed -- I'd 17 have to run that billing report, but I know Bandera County 18 just about spent half a million a year just to us for the 19 cost of out-of-county housing. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess, really, it's up 21 to -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I like the work 23 program. I'd like to see him get that established. I'm not 24 so sure I'm ready to sign off on 96 beds or whatever size 25 facility. 6-14-05 41 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I see over-building 2 at this point, analogous to the juvenile center in its 3 current state and current census as being over-built, if you 4 will, for lack of a better term. We've got a large facility 5 and we're hoping to fill it up, and if we over-build you, 6 we're going to have a large facility and then we'll be 7 waiting to fill it up. I don't know that I'm all that 8 sanguine about taking out-of-county in, just like you're not 9 all that sanguine about taking out-of-county J.D.'s in. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, there's a real big 11 difference, though, in staffing and housing county cost 12 analysis in adult and juveniles. One of the biggest 13 long-term differences is, in her juvenile facility, it's 14 either a 1-to-8 or 1-to-12 ratio. In an adult facility, 15 it's 1-to-48. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's true, but you 17 do two different things. There's rehabilitation on one side 18 of the equation, and there's incarceration, period, on the 19 other side. Can't mix those two. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, the -- 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Rehabilitation is 22 postadjudicated, and most postadjudicated this County's had 23 a history of housing out of county anyhow, so there is not a 24 mixing. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Buster is looking at one, 6-14-05 42 1 then the other. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This is getting 3 interesting, finally. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, we should pursue 5 the work program. I think that shows the taxpayers that 6 we're making a bona fide effort to do something positive, 7 and also that helps -- we hope it will reduce the population 8 and buy a year, and postpone any construction for a year. 9 But get a work program in place and see if it does, in fact, 10 do what you think it will do, is help your population a 11 little bit. And I think even if it doesn't, it's worth -- I 12 think we ought to do it. 13 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, my only 14 consideration with that was, like I started out saying, I 15 think it was 2001, we first hit 200 in that jail, okay? 16 Population. The work program needs to go. We need -- that 17 may relieve us enough not to house out of county during the 18 construction phase of adding onto that facility. But I 19 think if you want to -- to do the work program and then just 20 sit back and wait a year or two to see how well it does, 21 then we're going to be in a situation that's a whole lot 22 worse. We're going to be running the work program and 23 paying out of county, and I don't know of a county right now 24 within 100 miles of us that's housing adults, and the cost 25 of that's going to be horrendous. 6-14-05 43 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: How far? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 100 miles. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I don't know one within 4 100 miles. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I haven't heard from the 6 Judge and Number 1. I heard -- I mean, I hear two 7 possibilities of getting architects and one possibly not 8 getting an architect. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I look at it a 10 little bit differently. See, I look at it from -- I think 11 that the taxpayers -- there are four things that they 12 demand. One is police protection, fire protection, 13 ambulance service, and a nice road to drive on. And they 14 demand that police protection. And the way I see it is that 15 our facility is full, and it's full of our local bad people. 16 And there's a continual growth in the county, so that's not 17 going to stop. They -- Rusty and his staff, I think, are 18 being good cops, good law enforcement, so they're out there 19 arresting bad people more. That's just the way I see it. 20 So I don't -- you know, I see -- I love the work program. I 21 love either one of those things, either one of the work 22 programs. Just get them out -- get them out here. I want 23 to see them out on the side of the road picking up trash 24 with a deputy on horseback with a shotgun, is what I want to 25 see. And -- but I don't -- that -- that doesn't give us any 6-14-05 44 1 relief in the overcrowding. 2 I do not see us driving people to other 3 counties, whether it's 100 miles or 50 miles. I just don't 4 -- I don't see that at all. To me, that's a ridiculous way 5 to do things, especially when you're -- Clay and I were 6 talking at lunch today. You hire -- I mean, you arrest a 7 guy one night, a drunken idiot, so you would -- we take him 8 out of the county. Let's just say Fredericksburg. We take 9 him to Fredericksburg and lock him up, and the deputy comes 10 on back and goes back to work. He's got to go back over 11 there the next morning and get him to get him magistrated, 12 bring him back over and get him magistrated, take him back 13 over there and put him in jail. That doesn't make sense to 14 me, okay? You'd have a couple of deputies in a couple of 15 cars that are out there on the highway all the time. And it 16 just -- unless the Judge wants to donate part of his salary 17 and buy us a helicopter. That might -- that might work. 18 But I -- I just think -- I think the long-term picture 19 involves more beds. And I would not wait -- I would not 20 wait a year and a half to do that, 'cause it's going to be 21 worse -- a lot worse in a year and a half than it is today. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: One thing, if I may 23 interject right here -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I don't think 25 I'm going to let you quite yet. I'm not through. 6-14-05 45 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But I do feel like -- 3 I do feel like that we need to utilize the juvenile facility 4 in a better way. We need to figure out a way to use it to 5 at least break even, as opposed to what's going on there 6 now, and that's -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that -- 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all can argue with 9 the Sheriff all you want to, but we're subsidizing other 10 counties with our taxpayers' money, so I think we need to -- 11 you know, if the Sheriff -- you know, it's not -- it's not 12 something that this Commissioner has this big brainstorm or 13 an understanding of what's going on, but the Sheriff is the 14 professional. He knows -- he knows what's going on out 15 there, and I think we should listen to his -- his 16 recommendations. I don't know that I would, you know, vote 17 -- I wouldn't vote today on going to hire an architect, but 18 I think that we need to take a really close look at it and 19 start kind of moving in that direction. I really and truly 20 do. I think we need to either move in that direction or 21 turn the bad people loose out in the public. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's three votes. Get 23 it on the agenda. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, one other thing 25 that I would like to add is the T.D.C. population -- that 6-14-05 46 1 was something that you had asked me about, Jonathan, and we 2 got that. It is under one of the tabs marked "T.D.C. 3 Population." As of April 2005, their capacity for the 4 statewide T.D.C. system was 154,702. Their current 5 population was 151,308. Last month, T.D.C. contracted with 6 two county jails, one up in Bowie and one somewhere else, to 7 each house 250 of their T.D.C. overflow, and according to 8 the Jail Commission, they expect T.D.C. to shut their doors 9 in August. Now, if that happens, we will be in the 10 situation that Jonathan and a lot of us can remember -- I 11 know Buster can -- before, where -- where we stacked up so 12 bad it was unreal. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The issue, then, seems to 14 me -- you want to -- I mean, does the Court want to 15 entertain interviewing architects during budget, or wait 16 till after budget? 'Cause what I'm hearing is a majority of 17 the Court wants to follow your recommendation and at least 18 get an architect on board to find out the cost. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If we made a 20 decision right now to build -- expand the jail whatever, 48 21 or 96, in the '05-'06 year, would our -- looking at 22 timeline, would our only cost be architecture or 23 consultants? Or would we -- would you be breaking ground 24 before the -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You got to go to a 6-14-05 47 1 bond issue. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Generally, the -- 3 generally, I think the architects, there's no fee as long as 4 they -- you're hiring the architect, but there's no fee up 5 front. They'll do a certain amount of work free, contingent 6 on the bond passing. If the bond fails, they're just out 7 their money. So, there's really no funds out-of-pocket for 8 us to do it, as long as we convince the architects that 9 we're serious about it. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's correct. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think we ought to 12 move forward. That doesn't mean I'm -- like Commissioner 13 Baldwin, I'm not ready to vote today to build a new jail or 14 to spend money toward that, but unless -- unless I hear a 15 better solution, it looks like we're going to run out of 16 beds. And also, I don't like the idea of our uniformed 17 officers being taxicab drivers. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I don't either. 19 I have no problem with that. I just -- I'm just not 20 convinced yet that we don't have some facilities that could 21 be rehabilitated, and I think I would hold out for -- if 22 we're going to engage an architect, I want him to do an 23 assessment on those facilities. I want to hear from it a 24 professional what it takes to -- a building professional 25 that knows jail standards, what it takes to make a facility 6-14-05 48 1 that's usable. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's reasonable. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't have a problem 4 with that. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's a good idea, 6 and we're going to have Terry Julian down here to appear 7 before this Court to tell us how the cow eats the cabbage. 8 He's the last guy that's going to sign off on anything. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And he is? Refresh 10 my memory. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the Jail 12 Standards guy. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: He has offered to come 15 down anytime this Court would request him to. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I see. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And I would definitely 18 recommend, Commissioner Williams, the same thing. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the other part of 20 that is, we've gotten costs. I think the architect -- and 21 we need an architect to assess the current jail and -- and 22 exactly what -- you can't just add -- plop 144 beds in and 23 expect that infrastructure to work out there. I mean, 24 there's other costs that are going to happen, and what -- 25 you know, and we need to find that out. And I don't -- the 6-14-05 49 1 Sheriff shouldn't -- you know, I don't think he knows and 2 shouldn't be expected to know that. So, I mean, the steps 3 to find out is an architect. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bill, let me ask you a 5 question. Exactly what are you referring to when you talk 6 about doing a study of the best way to use the facilities? 7 Are you talking about the present adult facility, if there's 8 a better way to use the space? Are you talking about the 9 possibility of using part of the juvenile facility? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That. The latter, 11 yeah. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, I like that too. 13 I think that's the route to go. I don't know about Rusty's 14 locked doors and all that stuff, but there's got to be a way 15 around his problem. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There has to be 17 something other than converting it into the most expensive 18 storage shed in Kerr County. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, the new 20 facility, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't -- that's a nice 21 facility. It is a nice facility. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is. We've heard 23 from four people, but we haven't heard from the County 24 Judge. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's right. I'm 6-14-05 50 1 going to go back to sleep, Judge. Go get 'em. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the alternatives, as I 3 see it, if we -- if we do nothing, we're going to be in 4 violation of Jail Standards Commission, in which case we'll 5 eventually get slapped, or we're going to be paying 6 out-of-county, or both. Or we turn some bad guys out on the 7 street that shouldn't be out on the street, or all three. I 8 don't like any of those three. Temporarily, I could 9 probably stand the payment of some out-of-county. We're 10 getting close to the edge with the Jail Standards 11 Commission; I think that occurs very frequently. 12 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: And they already know 13 that we have housed inmates on the floor in the last month. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: And -- well, you're obliged to 15 notify them. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I'm required. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: If you're out of compliance, 18 you're obliged to notify them, just like in the juvenile 19 facility, if there's a similar-type problem, there's an 20 obligation to notify them. But -- 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Exactly right. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: -- as long as you are making 23 any reasonable affirmative step towards remediation, 24 whatever that may be, finding additional outside space, in 25 talks with an architect, design for enlarged facilities, 6-14-05 51 1 whatever. So, that'll give you some breathing room. I 2 think, as Commissioner Baldwin said, you know, unless the 3 citizens want the ultimate result to be that these bad guys 4 are on the street, you know, walking around in their 5 neighborhoods and doing the things that they do, unless 6 they're willing to accept that, I think we've got to come up 7 with a solution. As Commissioner Baldwin said, we've got a 8 -- we've got a growth situation. It's not going to go away. 9 I don't agree with the growth projections that -- that you 10 see out of a lot of the demographic studies and so forth. I 11 saw some just the other day that showed the population of 12 Kerr County in 2015 as only going to be 48,000, I think it 13 was. I think that's a farce. It may have been the one that 14 you had attached. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: The Facilities Needs 16 Study that the Jail Commission used, they got theirs from 17 the State Data Systems or something, and they are projecting 18 -- they're saying county population 4/30 was 47,026, and 19 they are projecting 50,486 by 2010, 54,000 by 2015, and 20 57,230 by 2020. That's what they're using. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: I've seen some that were much 22 lower than that. And my point is, you can -- you can crunch 23 those numbers any way you want to, but I think -- I think, 24 as we've looked at those numbers develop over the past 25 25 years, they've historically had to be adjusted upward 6-14-05 52 1 virtually every time, because the percentage was too low. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Right. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And they keep having to be 4 adjusted upward, and as evidenced by when this facility came 5 online in '96, we were looking at a 15- to 20-year solution. 6 Well, obviously, we don't have that as a solution, and it 7 didn't just happen. It's been bumping at that for a year or 8 two out there. So -- 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, my closing 10 statement, really, to y'all would be I think this county 11 does have to add onto the jail, whether it be the 96-bed or 12 144-bed. Possibly there are some ways at looking at some 13 other programs besides just the work release, and I really 14 don't know of any offhand. Maybe a weekender program; we 15 did that years ago, where they just spent weekend nights in 16 jail and were released, but they still count, and you have 17 to have a totally separate cellblock for them. But maybe we 18 can kind of think outside the box and come up with some 19 other ways and some other programs that would help us some 20 on our population problem, but I don't believe any program 21 we'd come up with is going to solve either having to add the 22 96- or the 144-bed. Maybe we could keep it down at 96, but 23 I don't see that we're going to get away from adding. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sheriff, I'll look at 25 you, then, to put it on our agenda to go out for RFP's. 6-14-05 53 1 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Is it architects that I 2 need to ask for? Or is it a consultant, or how does this -- 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Architects. 4 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I can't remember how 5 this all worked at that time, Jonathan. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I believe we have to hire 7 architects. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have to do an RFQ for 9 architecture services. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: They call it professional RFQ. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: RFQ. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whatever. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Request for 14 Qualifications. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can never get the 16 two of them straightened out, P and Q. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: During our budget 18 workshop process, the only thing that I would have to 19 consider -- and I know Judge Tinley knows this -- on 20 actually starting a good work program to get the inmates out 21 is, one, four staff members 8:00 to 5:00, Monday through 22 Friday, and then transportation. And we had looked at 23 possibly even going to a bluebird-type bus, because I can 24 buy one bus for cheaper than I can buy two cars. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd just -- just put it 6-14-05 54 1 on a separate page. And I would also get a separate -- a 2 little package deal. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, as special programs. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under special projects or 5 whatever you want to call it. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Thank you, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What was the topic of the 8 workshop? Is this -- is it just jail? 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Discuss jail-slash-detention 10 and related issues. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is juvenile related? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, we recessed for 13 the juvenile contract. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean juvenile 15 discussion in general. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Jail-slash-detention and 17 related issues. Yes, we've included that. It was 18 intentionally stated that way. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question would be to 20 Ms. Harris. And I don't know if you have the information or 21 not, but I would like to see a breakdown as to what it costs 22 for the staff and -- you know, to keep the minimum amount 23 for preadjudicated only at the facility, and then what it 24 costs to -- on the direction we're going right now, which is 25 to keep it as -- you know, keep the preadjudicated out 6-14-05 55 1 there, and then fill it up with postadjudicated. Because 2 what I'm -- you know, what I'm hearing -- or what the 3 Sheriff says, as I understood it, is that with the 4 reimbursement that we're getting from the postadjudicated, 5 we will never -- we're always going to be subsidizing other 6 counties, and that's what I need to find out. If that's 7 true, I agree, I don't -- there's no reason to put 8 postadjudicated kids out there. If we're -- you know, so -- 9 and I just don't know the answer. I mean, that's what the 10 Sheriff said, so we need to find out. I need to find that 11 out, either now or, you know, at our next meeting. Or I was 12 always under the impression that the reason for the 13 postadjudicated was to help offset the operating costs of 14 the facility. 15 MS. HARRIS: And it is, sir. It is. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, but the Sheriff's 17 saying one thing and you're saying something else. 18 MS. HARRIS: I know. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I need to see, I guess, 20 the numbers as to what it costs to staff it, the 21 preadjudicated. 22 MS. HARRIS: It's going to cost the same to 23 staff it for pre as it does for post, 'cause the staffings 24 are the same. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean -- 6-14-05 56 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you see any trends 2 statewide on any changes in the per diem rates? 3 MS. HARRIS: Not right now, I'm not. If Hays 4 County is going under the jurisdiction and the operation of 5 the County Commissioners, they're in the process of 6 switching that over as we speak, so Hays County's going to 7 be operated by their County Commissioners. There was a 8 public hearing in Tom Green County on June the 6th regarding 9 Roy K. Robb, turning Roy K. Robb from a juvenile facility to 10 an adult female C.R.T.C., which is inpatient court-ordered 11 substance abuse treatment facility. Nobody showed up; 12 nobody protested it. They're waiting for the governor to 13 sign the budget. When the governor signs the budget, then 14 they're going to move forward, and the Department of 15 Criminal Justice has already allocated $400,000 to do the 16 renovations that's needed for that facility. So, it's 17 looking like -- after I talked with the adult chief 18 probation officer the other day, it looks like that Roy K. 19 Robb's probably going to close, probably mid-July. At the 20 latest, at the end of July, because he's got to have all the 21 renovations done in order to start accepting females 22 September 1. With that facility closing, that's another 23 substance abuse treatment program that will no longer be 24 offered. And I might add, I also found out yesterday that 25 there was an outpatient adolescent substance abuse treatment 6-14-05 57 1 program that was grant money-driven that Tom Green County 2 has had for four or five years. They're not getting that 3 grant money any more. So, for Tom Green County and the five 4 connecting counties, which is Coke, Runnels, Concho, Irion, 5 and Schleicher Counties, there will be no substance abuse 6 treatment for adolescents, inpatient or outpatient. So the 7 desire and the need for substance abuse treatment for 8 juveniles is going to get greater very quickly. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Hays County, are they -- are 10 they converting that to an adult facility? 11 MS. HARRIS: No. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I understood at one time they 13 were considering it. 14 MS. HARRIS: They were looking at that, but 15 right now, no. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Are there other facilities in 17 the state that are transitioning any of their juvenile 18 facilities to other uses? 19 MS. HARRIS: I don't know that, Judge Tinley. 20 I haven't heard anything else. I don't know. I don't know. 21 Normally, the trend -- any time you see an increase in -- in 22 the adult prison system, when you start seeing an influx in 23 the adult prison system, normally you're going to see the 24 same trend in juvenile, usually following a year, year and a 25 half later. It usually goes hand-in-hand. Also, you're 6-14-05 58 1 talking about an increase in Kerr County adult inmates 2 because your population is increasing. They have kids, so 3 you're going to see an increase in -- in Kerr County 4 juveniles as well. So, I see that the Sheriff's estimates 5 on population increase is going to go pretty well 6 hand-in-hand with the juveniles, pretty -- pretty close to 7 the same timeline. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is the -- the amount of 9 money that we are charging -- for example, the two contracts 10 pending in El Paso County and Cameron County, is the amount 11 of money that we are going to be charging or getting from 12 those counties for housing their postadjudicated kids, is it 13 going to -- I guess excluding debt, is it going to pay for 14 itself? I mean, is that going to cover the cost, 100 15 percent of the operating cost for housing those kids? 16 MS. HARRIS: No. Not even pre's. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, pre's I don't care 18 about, 'cause pre's are Kerr County kids, you know, and a 19 few other surrounding counties, so the postadjudicated. So 20 what is the reason, then, if we're not -- if the 21 reimbursement rate's not going to cover the cost, why would 22 we want to continue to do it? 23 MS. HARRIS: I don't know. I'm doing it 24 because that's what I was hired to do. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6-14-05 59 1 MS. HARRIS: I was doing it because that's 2 what that facility was designed to do. And in order to keep 3 it doing what revenue it's doing -- we had $80,000 worth of 4 revenue last May -- last month, $80,000 worth of revenue. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- well, let me 6 rephrase it. We -- on the preadjudicated side, we're 7 keeping, on a daily basis, maybe up to 12, it looks like, 8 you know. 9 MS. HARRIS: Between 8 and 12. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Between 8 and 12, 11 somewhere in there. What if we staffed it based on that? 12 What would it do to your current staffing if we were to 13 staff it to a maximum of 12 or 14 kids? Would that 14 reduce -- I mean, how much of a staff cut would that be? 15 MS. HARRIS: Are you wanting to use the old 16 building or the new building? Because the dorms are set up 17 different; they hold different amounts. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For simplicity at the 19 moment, probably the old. 20 MS. HARRIS: For 12? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. Or -- I mean, I 22 don't know -- the jail breaks at 48, is the number. 23 MS. HARRIS: Right. Ours breaks at 8. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At 8? 25 MS. HARRIS: At 8. 6-14-05 60 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Say -- well, I guess, 2 what's the cost of staff at 6, and what it would cost to 3 staff at 16, would be my question. 4 MS. HARRIS: You'd have to have 12 J.D.O.'s 5 to staff it for 16, plus shift supervisors, control 6 operators. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess I'm asking the 8 question -- the number -- I'd like to get a number on paper, 9 just so I can figure out what is -- you know, what it's 10 going to cost to staff it for 8, 16, 24, 32, each of the 11 levels up to whatever the capacity of that facility is, the 12 old facility only. 48? 13 MS. HARRIS: So, you want to staff the old 14 facility, not the new facility? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Which is more economical to 17 staff? 18 MS. HARRIS: It depends on what population -- 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Is one more economical than 20 the other, the way the -- the way the dormitories are set 21 up? 22 MS. HARRIS: Well, you can put 12 kids in a 23 dorm in the old building, and you can only put 8 kids in a 24 dorm in the new building. But you got to remember, you've 25 got to keep the girls and the boys separate. 6-14-05 61 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 2 MS. HARRIS: And that requires female 3 J.D.O.'s and male J.D.O.'s. So, you need to figure on a bid 4 of 12 girls and a bid of 12 boys, so you got to have so many 5 female staffing, so many male staff. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The old building also 7 has kitchen and laundry facilities, right? 8 MS. HARRIS: That's correct. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Whereas the new 10 building does not. 11 MS. HARRIS: That's correct. That's correct. 12 I just want to say that it would be real difficult for me to 13 look a kid that doesn't live here and that's not from 14 here -- to look that kid in the eye and tell that kid, 15 "You're out-of-county; can't help you." That's a moral 16 issue for me, not money. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, it's a taxpayer's 18 issue for me. 19 MS. HARRIS: I understand that. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I -- if we can -- 21 if it doesn't cost Kerr County taxpayers any money to help 22 those kids, I have no problem with doing it, but I can't go 23 along with spending tax dollars to help kids from El Paso. 24 El Paso should be helping those kids. And if they're not 25 willing to pay the costs that it costs Kerr County to house 6-14-05 62 1 those kids, that's an El Paso moral problem to me, not a 2 Kerr County moral problem. You know, that's just -- that's 3 the way I look at it. I mean, it's that simple. 4 MS. HARRIS: We can argue this all day long. 5 We can discuss this all day long. We discussed this back in 6 the fall. Everybody agreed that we were going to take this 7 facility and we were going to run with it, and we were going 8 to do the best that we possibly could with it. I did not 9 start marketing for placement until February, whenever it 10 was decided that the County was going to take over. I've 11 doubled that population in four months, and it's because 12 I've had -- I've taken out-of-county kids. And, yes, it 13 costs more to do programming for those juveniles and offer 14 the programs in order to get kids in here, to get revenue in 15 here. The facility was already in debt, in bad shape when I 16 got here. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 18 MS. HARRIS: I inherited this. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand that. You 20 know, what I'm saying is that -- and I -- somewhere maybe I 21 misread the numbers, but the goal in my mind was to fill it 22 up with out-of-county kids to help defray the cost. From 23 what I'm hearing today, for every kid we bring in from 24 outside of Kerr County, it's costing us more money than the 25 -- and we're losing more, and it's just not -- it's -- I 6-14-05 63 1 mean, we're losing more money for every kid. So if we, you 2 know, staff it -- we end up filling it up, we're going to 3 end up losing a bunch more money at a full facility than we 4 are one that's half full. That doesn't make sense. I mean, 5 I can't -- I can't go along with doing that to help kids 6 that aren't from this county. Now, if we can, you know, 7 break even on those other counties and it helps carry the 8 kids from Kerr County along a little bit, then I'm all in 9 favor of it. 10 MS. HARRIS: You might could raise the per 11 diem this next -- next contract go-around. You might could 12 raise the per diem on what they call the Classification 5 13 kids. Because the reimbursement that T.J.P.C. gives 14 counties to place Level 5 kids, they get $105 a day, per 15 diem, for that. Most of Bexar County kids, El Paso kids, 16 and Tarrant County kids are Level 5 kids. So if you want to 17 discuss and look at charging the maximum amount that's 18 allowed by the state reimbursement to those counties for 19 Level 5 kids, we can certainly look at that. The average 20 per diem rate across the state across the board is $85 a 21 day, and we're at $83. I mean, mine is a marketing issue. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's it cost a kid -- 23 per kid? 24 MS. HARRIS: Last month I figured it up with 25 the average population that we had. It cost $146 a day 6-14-05 64 1 across the board, pre's and posts, 'cause we're charging the 2 same for pre's and posts. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's operating 4 costs only? Doesn't include the debt service? 5 MS. HARRIS: No, because the debt service is 6 coming out of your ad valorem tax. Is that not correct? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean -- 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What was the number? 10 MS. HARRIS: 146. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 146. And we're 12 charging? 13 MS. HARRIS: 83. That's $63 a day you're 14 going in the hole. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On that point, I'd 16 like to ask Kevin Stanton a question, if you don't mind. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kevin, we have kids 19 out of county or kids in other facilities; is that correct? 20 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And if the state 22 average reimbursement is 85, -- 23 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- I guess, what are 25 we paying per day? I guess that's what I want to ask. I 6-14-05 65 1 want to ask two questions. What are we paying per day for 2 each of our kids placed outside of Kerr County? And, if you 3 know, what would be the average cost to keep that kid per 4 day that somebody's picking up the tab for? 5 MR. STANTON: It depends -- it depends on 6 what level they are when we place them. Anywhere -- it's 7 anywhere from $80 to about $84 a day, is what most of our 8 contracts equal out to. And that's what we're paying here 9 in Kerr County to place kids at the facility also. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, we've got how 11 many kids placed out now? 12 MR. STANTON: Right now, currently outside of 13 Kerr County, we have four. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Four? 15 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is it a reasonable 17 assumption that they're being taken care of for $85? Or 18 that there is some subsidy someplace, or do you know? 19 MR. STANTON: All I know is that -- that 20 that's the contract rate that we agreed to with the 21 providers when we entered into the contracts, so I'm 22 assuming, from going and checking on the facilities and 23 everything, that they're providing what they -- they say 24 they're providing for us at that rate. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Would their staffing 6-14-05 66 1 ratios at these facilities be the same as ours, or 2 different? Would their -- 3 MR. STANTON: It depends on if it's a secure 4 facility or nonsecure facility. Nonsecure facilities, the 5 staffing ratio is less than the secure facilities. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is -- Kevin, I don't 8 know -- or Becky, either one. Is -- our facility is 9 classified as secure, correct? 10 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, in a secure facility, 12 is there any way of finding out what another facility's cost 13 is? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: What their cost -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Cost. In other words, if 16 our kids -- if we have a -- one of those four, say he's in a 17 secure facility in Hays County. Is Hays County subsidizing 18 that kid? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's kind of what I 20 was trying to ask. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. Is that kid 22 costing $84? I mean, our contract says $84. Are they able 23 to provide that service for $84? Or is that service costing 24 them $140 and they're subsidizing, you know, whatever that 25 difference is? 6-14-05 67 1 MS. HARRIS: Well, their programs are 2 different, and there goes -- therein lies a cost difference 3 in how much it costs to operate that facility, because the 4 programs are totally different. Hays County is a boot camp. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I'm not -- what I'm 6 trying to say is that I know -- I mean, I'm not trying to 7 pick on Hays County facility. Are other counties -- what 8 should it be costing for a like facility? It seems to me 9 that there's no facility anywhere in the state that's going 10 to take any kids if they're not at least breaking even. You 11 know, I don't see how -- you can't operate -- no facility 12 can operate long. We found out that we could not operate 13 that way either. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Hood County did, didn't they? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean, either 16 they're -- some of the facilities that are taking kids are 17 -- have figured out a way to only use those programs they 18 make money at, or they're running the facility at a whole 19 lot less cost, because I just cannot imagine that there are 20 any facilities in the state going to take kids and lose 21 money over a long term. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Except us. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask a question, 25 and it's probably going to appear the dumbest question of 6-14-05 68 1 the year, but this is -- I guess they allow me one boy-dummy 2 question a year, and this is it. What if we dropped our 3 substance abuse program, we dropped our sexual program and 4 whatever else program, and -- and didn't deal with the 5 psychiatrists and all those things that we deal with, and we 6 just -- we had a juvenile jail. We didn't treat people; we 7 just kept them there and did the basic things that the State 8 tells us to do. What would that do? 9 MS. HARRIS: Well, as of today -- 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The cost per day. 11 MS. HARRIS: Well, as of today, you'd lose 21 12 kids, so you would reduce the postadjudication population to 13 one. And T.J.P.C. requires that you have to provide -- for 14 postadjudication kids, that you have to provide programming 15 that includes life skills, coping skills, anger management. 16 We have to provide an education, of course. Their academic 17 education doesn't cost us anything, 'cause K.I.S.D. provides 18 that. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 20 MS. HARRIS: You have to offer chemical 21 dependency education. Not treatment, but education. So, 22 you have to have people that are versed in that in order to 23 offer those required minimum programming for the kids, and 24 every facility in the state has to offer that on the 25 lock-down secure facilities. So, you would -- you would not 6-14-05 69 1 have to have an L.P.C. or an L.C.D.C. You would have to 2 have a -- I would think a Bachelor-degreed person in a 3 behavioral science, and -- in psychology, perhaps, that 4 could handle the coping skills and anger management and 5 chemical education classes for the kids. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Becky, our proposed 7 $2.6 million operating budget, what level of population is 8 that based on? 9 MS. HARRIS: 76. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's based on 11 having 76? 12 MS. HARRIS: That's fully staffed, both 13 buildings, for -- 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 76 employees? 15 MS. HARRIS: No. That's based on -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Residents. 17 MS. HARRIS: That's based on staffing both 18 buildings to take care of 76 kids. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. Now, see, I 20 don't -- I've heard a couple times today that we talked 21 about the economics of this; that the debt that we incurred 22 to purchase it is not -- not being considered. Facts are, a 23 year or so ago we didn't own that facility, and now we do 24 own it. And -- but we've got a $2.6 million operating 25 budget, and a $472,000 annual debt service budget, so a year 6-14-05 70 1 ago we didn't have a $3,072,000 cost, and now we do. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We -- I mean, the revenue 3 goes -- 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Revenue -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- comes off that. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I take revenue off 7 that, and that surprises me, 'cause I don't think we talked 8 about these kind of numbers. At 72, we're still going to 9 lose $575,000 a year. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on how many? 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 76 -- the number I 12 wrote down is 72. I don't know. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 76. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What revenue are we 15 expecting for 2005-2006? They're looking at stuff I don't 16 have. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On 76 beds, both 18 facilities, the revenue is estimated at 2.48, say 2.5. 19 Expenses were estimated at 2.603. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, our best case 21 for next year -- 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: $122,000 plus the 23 debt service that's being paid. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And debt service is 25 $575,000. Maybe "lose" is a business term. That's going to 6-14-05 71 1 cost us $575,000 that we weren't being charged for a year 2 ago. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If you fill it up and 4 keep it full -- 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- year-round. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Harris, what kind of 8 reaction do you think you might receive if you were to 9 contact all the postadjudicated placement counties and 10 suggest to them that it's necessary that we have a new 11 contract, and that that new contract float -- ride, as it 12 were -- with the level of reimbursement, depending upon the 13 classification? 14 MS. HARRIS: I think, based on what we've 15 done at the facility at this point in time, the reputation 16 of the facility is really, really good. We're now getting 17 referrals, word of mouth. I think we might -- I think we 18 might get, "Okay, are we still going to get the same level 19 of service?" Yes, you're still going to get the same level 20 of service. I think that it might fly. So, if I'm 21 understanding you, that -- like, for the Level 5 kids, we'd 22 charge the maximum $105 a day, 'cause that's what they're 23 going to get back from the State; it's not coming out of 24 pocket for them. And for what we used to call Level 4 kids, 25 I think that rate's $80 a day now, isn't it? For the old 6-14-05 72 1 Level 4 kids? Isn't that $80 a day? 2 MR. STANTON: Yes, ma'am. 3 MS. HARRIS: So the 83, we'd be charging more 4 than what they get, but the level of service that they get 5 from us would certainly be worth, I would think, that extra 6 $3. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: What portion of the 8 postadjudication residents do you see would fall within the 9 increased Level 5 reimbursement rate? Percentage-wise or -- 10 MS. HARRIS: Do you want me to count on what 11 my projection I think is going to be from the larger 12 counties that send us Level 5? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Whatever -- whatever 14 reasonable expectations are. I hear what you're saying. 15 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: What you're saying is, I was 17 brought in to do a job; post, pre, the whole thing, and I'm 18 knocking myself out to do the job I was hired to do. The 19 wheels fell off. We got the wheels back on it, but we've 20 only had the wheels back on it for four months, so give me a 21 chance here. But I think you see, the reality of the 22 numbers are that if the citizens of Kerr County are being 23 asked to subsidize other counties, in essence, because the 24 pro rata share of the cost to house and program a child here 25 is greater -- and it's on the back of Kerr County 6-14-05 73 1 taxpayers -- than what they're paying, the local taxpayers 2 say, "We don't think this is right." I'm trying to find a 3 way that we can get this thing on a reasonable basis and a 4 rational basis to these other counties that you're getting a 5 whole lot more than you're paying for; therefore, what's 6 reasonable is for you to pay for what you're getting. 7 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, I realize we may have 9 some contract issues here, and they could probably insist, 10 "Well, I've got a contract that runs until September." 11 And -- 12 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: But we've got a quality of 14 programming issue that I think we're in a position to sell. 15 And I think, as you indicated, the reputation is we're back 16 on top. 17 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: But of these postadjudicated 19 kids, what portion of those would fall under the Level 5 new 20 funding? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it a question, or is 22 it -- 23 MR. EMERSON: Well, it's a comment. I hate 24 to throw another carrot in the pot, and Becky and Kevin can 25 probably clarify this, but from dealing with kids in other 6-14-05 74 1 counties when I used to work with the 198th kids all the 2 time, I know that the Level 5 money has somewhat of a short 3 tenure, and it runs out annually before the end of the year. 4 MS. HARRIS: Usually runs out about March. 5 MR. EMERSON: So you can't count on the Level 6 5 money all year long. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, you got to factor 8 that into it, then. 9 MR. STANTON: Just so the Court knows -- and 10 I think if there's any way we can keep the facility open, I 11 think we need to, but the Level 5 money that we're all 12 talking about, what in effect would happen with an increase 13 in the rates to $105 a day is that -- just speaking from the 14 Probation Department's standpoint, is we could pay that $105 15 a day at the contract rate. The problem is -- is when we 16 contract with T.J.P.C. to get that money back, it's going to 17 dry up that money that T.J.P.C. has even faster. We 18 contacted T.J.P.C. day before yesterday to get Level 5 19 funding for another young man that we were getting ready to 20 place, and that money's already gone for the year. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What happens when it's 22 gone? What's the County do? 23 MS. HARRIS: Some counties know that it's 24 going to be -- that it always runs out before the end of the 25 fiscal year, and some counties budget enough money to 6-14-05 75 1 subsidize the end of the fiscal year when the Level 5 money 2 runs out, and some counties don't. And when the counties 3 run out of that Level 5 funding, they pull the kid. They'll 4 pull the kid out of the facility because their money's run 5 out. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: See where I'm going? 7 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: And that may be some of the 9 numbers you want to try and factor into what Commissioner 10 Letz was asking for. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It just seems like I'm 12 missing -- there's a piece of the puzzle that I'm missing 13 somewhere. I just don't understand why it costs our 14 facility $140 a kid. You know, I know I averaged a little 15 bit. Say, whatever it is, about $140 a kid, the State's -- 16 you know, and there's other facilities that -- where kids 17 are going around the state. The State's reimbursing at a 18 less -- amount less than that. We all know that. I'm 19 confused that these other counties -- either all the other 20 facilities are running a whole lot more efficiently at a 21 lower cost than us, or they're paying other counties more, 22 or those counties are subsidizing the rest of the state like 23 we are currently. And I can't imagine that any of those are 24 -- are happening. I mean, I can't imagine that other 25 counties are subsidizing other counties, so it's either that 6-14-05 76 1 they're running a lot more efficiently in other buildings 2 than we are, or counties are willing to pay that -- the 3 difference between the actual cost and what the State's 4 reimbursing. I mean -- 5 MS. HARRIS: It's a combination of two of 6 your three. Some of -- some counties will get their 7 reimbursements from T.J.P.C., and if they send that -- let's 8 say $80. They're getting $80 from T.J.P.C. for that child, 9 and the facility is charging $90. There are some counties 10 that will go ahead and send that kid there for $90 a day, 11 and they will budget that extra $10 a day in their budget. 12 There are some counties that do that. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 MS. HARRIS: There are -- the majority of the 15 facilities -- juvenile facilities, it's not a money-making 16 deal. That's why the private companies have bailed out 17 big-time, and it is because of the stringent standards, 18 staffing -- the extra staffing that we have to have, the 19 required programming that we have to offer, and we have to 20 have qualified people in order to do that. It's an 21 expensive business, and there are facilities just like us 22 that are running in the red. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Who owns them? 24 MS. HARRIS: The counties. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So the counties -- and 6-14-05 77 1 they are housing out-of-county kids? 2 MS. HARRIS: Hays County's fixing to take it 3 on. That's one of the reasons why Tom Green County has done 4 what they've done. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- you know, I -- 6 MS. HARRIS: It's a trend across the state, 7 Commissioner. And I know that it's a hard pill to swallow 8 and it's kind of hard to understand, but that's -- that's 9 the juvenile world. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I understand that, 11 but I just don't understand -- I mean, I understand that it 12 costs more, but what I don't understand is why El Paso and 13 Cameron County aren't willing to pay us -- we're not talking 14 $90; we're talking $140 before we're ready to start breaking 15 even. 16 MS. HARRIS: They're not going to pay 17 anything more than what they're going to get reimbursed from 18 the State. Unless they -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Then they're not going to 20 get facilities anywhere in the state to do it. I mean, 21 that's the only -- I mean, long-term. Short-term, someone 22 can run in the red. Long-term, a facility can't run in the 23 red, so there will be no facility -- I mean, Hays County may 24 be opening one, but they're going to come to the same 25 realization we have, that you can't do it. You know, if the 6-14-05 78 1 reimbursement rate or the -- I don't care what the 2 reimbursement rate is; if the counties putting kids there 3 aren't willing to pay the cost, you can't do it. Just like 4 Rusty at the jail. You know, we're not going to house 5 Gillespie or, you know, Tom Green County inmates for $20 a 6 day. We're just not going to do it, because we'd be losing 7 $20 a day. And it's the same -- I don't know see how 8 juveniles is any different. 9 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Only other thing you 10 have to look at costs in Kerr County is, for the juvenile, 11 you're looking at running two facilities, two buildings. 12 That doubles everything. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're discussing 140 14 right now just to run one. 15 MS. HARRIS: Right. Now, remember, that 140 16 that I quoted you was what it cost for the month of May. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 18 MS. HARRIS: The more kids you get, that cost 19 goes down. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The number that I want is 21 what it costs per day if that facility is full. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You could get that 23 by dividing 76 kids into $2.6 million. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The 76 is using both 25 facilities. I'm not worried about the -- 6-14-05 79 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Divide 48 into that. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 48 into whatever the -- 3 you know, I need to know what it costs to -- I'm not using a 4 calculator. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I think I may be able to shed 6 some more light on it. The question that you have is, why 7 in the world would counties continue to do this if it were 8 costing them money to do it? Some of them are not 9 continuing to do it, evidence Hays County and Hood County. 10 There are -- there's another group of detention facilities 11 in this state, and the Auditor reported this to us; I think 12 there are 11 or 12 different facilities, number one, that 13 were built with state bond money. 14 MS. HARRIS: There's 12. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: So they don't have -- they 16 don't have that difficulty to contend with. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're not talking -- we 18 have no debt -- we have no debt figured in our numbers yet. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: In addition, as the Auditor 20 reported to us, some, if not all, of those state-bonded 21 facilities receive annually from the State of Texas an 22 operational supplement, and that may be the cushion that 23 makes up the difference. I don't have any specifics on 24 that; I'm recalling what the Auditor told us. Do you have 25 any more specific information on that at this point, 6-14-05 80 1 Ms. Harris? 2 MS. HARRIS: No. I know that the facilities 3 that were built with that bond money, whenever the 4 reimbursement dried up, when they're no longer getting 5 reimbursement, then they're feeling the crunch that you're 6 feeling right now. They're starting to feel that crunch, 7 where in the beginning when those facilities were built, 8 that was not the case, 'cause they were getting state 9 supplement money, where other facilities that were not built 10 with that bond money -- case in point; this facility was not 11 built with that State-issued bond money, hence Recor went 12 belly-up. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, the 14 economics seem to be that if you -- you can save money by 15 closing down the facility, eating the debt service cost, and 16 sending all our kids out of county, and pay -- you can do 17 that by paying the extra 50,000 or 60,000 a year the Sheriff 18 says he'd have to spend by hauling kids back and forth. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The answer to your 20 question earlier, based on 48 residents, one building, and 21 the numbers in Ms. Harris' budget of expenditures of 2.195, 22 if you extrapolate that out over -- divide by 48 over 360, 23 you're getting $125 per diem. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 125 is what, if it was 25 full, it would cost? 6-14-05 81 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Per diem. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on -- based on 4 the configuration of programming, right, whatever that is 5 today, and the associated costs with the programs that Kerr 6 County has offered juveniles. 7 MS. HARRIS: So, the answer to Commissioner 8 Baldwin's question is -- if Commissioner Baldwin is talking 9 about making it just general corrections and no specialized 10 treatment, yeah, you're going to reduce that operating 11 expenditure. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: If you take your 2.6, and on 13 the level of 76, and run that down on a -- on a per diem 14 basis, it comes down to about 93.75. 15 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. The more kids you get 16 in there, it costs you less to run it. That's why the 17 deficit on 76 is less than 48. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure. 19 MS. HARRIS: Because you're not putting a 20 whole duplicate staff over in that other building. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: And your other staff people 22 are spread over a wider base. 23 MS. HARRIS: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. Your 25 deficit's lower. 6-14-05 82 1 MS. HARRIS: Right. Well, here's the 2 problem. I need to know what direction you're going to go 3 in. We've been down this road for a year, and there's 40 -- 4 38 Kerr County taxpayers out there and their families that 5 need to know what you want to do so we'll know what to do. 6 'Cause they got to make plans. And I need to know what 7 direction you want to go in, because we're coming -- we're 8 coming down to the wire at the end of the fiscal year. If 9 we're going to renew contracts, we got to start sending them 10 out and giving the counties a heads-up if you're going to go 11 up on your per diem. If you're going to dissolve the whole 12 thing, then we need to know. 'Cause if I go back to 13 teaching school, I got to find a job right now, because 14 that's when they're hiring teachers. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a discussion I 16 think the Court's going to have to undertake on a regular 17 agenda. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. We can't make a 19 decision on that today. 20 MS. HARRIS: Well, I've gotten two phone 21 calls today from El Paso wanting to know what I think about 22 the kid that they want to send us, and I haven't returned 23 their phone calls. If you don't want me to take any more 24 out-of-county kids, no more postadjudication kids, I need to 25 know. 6-14-05 83 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, can we bring 2 that item up on the two contracts now? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me go ahead and call Item 4 17 on the agenda. 5 MS. HARRIS: Those are the ones -- the new 6 ones with the added change that Rex wanted me to add. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Item 17, discuss 8 approval of placement contracts with El Paso County and 9 Cameron County and authorize County Judge to sign same. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 13 approval of -- both contracts? 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any question or 16 discussion? All in favor of that motion, signify by raising 17 your right hand. 18 (Commissioners Letz, Williams, and Nicholson voted in favor of the motion.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (Commissioner Letz voted against the motion.) 21 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 23 MS. HARRIS: The two that have the tabs are 24 the two original signature contracts. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6-14-05 84 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you want me to sign 2 them? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What's the 5 cancellation clause on that say? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 30 days. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's until 8 September, is that not? 9 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, this is the 11 balance of the fiscal year. 12 MS. ALFORD: That's only El Paso there? 13 MS. HARRIS: No, he already has Cameron's. 14 You've already got Cameron's. 15 MS. ALFORD: Right, but he hasn't signed it. 16 MS. HARRIS: I don't know. I don't believe 17 so. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I know I haven't. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, back to one of 20 Letz' thoughts earlier. It amazes me that Cameron County, 21 Harris County, Bexar County, El Paso County, or whatever 22 counties there are out there -- those are huge counties. 23 Why in the hell don't they build their own facility? I 24 don't get that. Why are they sending kids -- 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Maybe they know 6-14-05 85 1 something we should know. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think they do. 3 Well, they found someone up here that will take care of 4 their kids and pay for it, is what they've found. 5 MS. HARRIS: I can answer that. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On that topic, Kevin, 7 Commissioner Letz and I both are trying to draw down -- and 8 only with respect to Kerr County placements, okay? We know 9 what our contract says, but somehow I'd like to find out 10 what is the actual per diem cost to house that young person 11 in that particular county, wherever it is. I'd like to know 12 that. 13 MR. STANTON: Okay, I'll get that for you. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And just a -- kind of a 15 general comment. I mean, the numbers show that if we can -- 16 it's going to cost, if both sides are full, about $94 per 17 day. If we can get reimbursement at that rate, I'm for 18 filling it up. But we can't subsidize. And I know -- I 19 mean, it may be, you know, a slight variance off of that 20 number, because you don't know budget numbers -- our budget 21 numbers. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Again, your -- the 23 $94 a day would cover operating costs, not debt service. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But, you know, I 25 also think that there is some -- if everything I'm hearing 6-14-05 86 1 is correct, and I have no reason to believe that it isn't, 2 the State's got -- some changes have to be made in the 3 juvenile funding mechanism in the state in the next couple 4 of years. So, if we can -- you know, I don't mind gambling 5 a little bit for a couple of years if we're not losing a 6 whole bunch, but it's got to be close to the $94 a day that 7 we're spending, versus the $146 a day that it's costing 8 right now. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: See, Commissioner, 10 I'm thinking we've already gambled. It's my recollection 11 that when we voted on whether or not to pay off that 12 indebtedness about three different times -- 1.5, 1.9, 13 5 million, whatever -- that the numbers that were developed 14 said that if we -- if they -- if we didn't do that and they 15 shut down, that it would cost us $50,000 to $60,000 a year 16 to transport children. If we bought it, we would lose 1.5, 17 1.9 payout; I don't remember which. We would lose, on some 18 sort of an estimated population, 200,000 to 220,000 a year, 19 and that included debt service. And now I'm looking at 20 $575,000. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: See, my recollection was 22 that the cost to transport and that whole bit was about 23 200,000 a year, not 50,000. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what he said. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I believe 6-14-05 87 1 that we were told. 2 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: That was pre's also, if 3 you -- as soon as you picked one up off the street, you had 4 to haul them to another county. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. That's the 6 number I recall. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was additional cost of 8 about 200,000. And the 122 that you -- that we were talking 9 to here, we were better off by having a facility. If we can 10 keep it full, you know. And that's still, you know, what 11 we're -- I'm hoping we can get. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have any more items -- 13 any more consideration to be given to any items on the 14 regular Commissioners Court agenda today? Do we have any 15 further discussion on the workshop posted agenda item? 16 Hearing nothing further, we will be adjourned. 17 (Commissioners Court meeting and workshop adjourned at 3:20 p.m.) 18 - - - - - - - - - - 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-14-05 88 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 5 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 6 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 7 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 24th day of June, 2005. 8 9 10 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 11 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 12 Certified Shorthand Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6-14-05