1 2 3 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 4 and 5 KERR COUNTY JUVENILE BOARD 6 Joint Meeting 7 Thursday, August 18, 2005 8 4:00 p.m. 9 Commissioners' Courtroom 10 Kerr County Courthouse 11 Kerrville, Texas 12 13 14 Operational, Personnel, and Budgetary issues relating to Kerr County Juvenile Detention Facility 15 16 17 18 P R E S E N T 19 Kerr County Commissioners Court: 20 PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge 21 H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 22 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 23 Kerr County Juvenile Board: 24 PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge 25 EMIL KARL PROHL, 198th District Judge 2 1 On Thursday, August 18, 2005, at 4:00 p.m., a joint 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and the Kerr 3 County Juvenile Board was held in the Commissioners' 4 Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and the 5 following proceedings were had in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me first call to order the 8 joint meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and the 9 Kerr County Juvenile Board scheduled for this date and time, 10 Thursday, August 18th, 2005, at 4 p.m. It's past that time 11 now. The item on the agenda is to consider and discuss 12 operational, personnel, and budgetary issues relating to the 13 continued operation of the Kerr County Juvenile Detention 14 Facility, with an executive session addenda for personnel 15 matters. That particular item is now on the table. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I -- I don't know 17 how we got these styled way they were, really, but my intent 18 was -- I saw the Juvenile Board meeting, and the only way 19 that the Commissioners could come and just listen, 'cause it 20 had an effect on us, was for us to call a meeting at the 21 same time or have a joint meeting. So, really, I'm here 22 more to listen to the Juvenile Board's -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think there's 24 some things that we probably need to try to work our way 25 through at the beginning. And after you and I had had some 8-18-05 jcc 3 1 discussions about this issue and all of its ramifications, I 2 asked Judge Tinley if we could have a joint session with -- 3 with the Juvenile Probation Board so that we could attempt 4 to determine the operational and the personnel and budget -- 5 budgetary aspects of -- of this operation. There's been a 6 lot of -- there have been a lot of documents flying back and 7 forth in terms of authority, who has the authority to do 8 what and who should do what and who should not do what and 9 who reports to whom and who doesn't report to whom, and I 10 think it's important that we try to work our way through 11 those issues so that we all know. We clearly recognize that 12 there are statutory requirements of Juvenile Probation 13 Board, and we also understand there are -- there are fiscal 14 responsibilities of Commissioners Court now that we have 15 taken ownership of the -- of the facility. 16 I refer to -- if everybody has it, there's a 17 memorandum dated August 15th, and it's from the T.J.P.C., 18 and it's addressed to Kevin Stanton, copy to Rex Emerson, 19 and it's from Nydia Thomas, who is a senior staff attorney 20 with Texas J.P.C. I'm not going to bore you with all of -- 21 all of that which is in that memorandum, but suffice it to 22 say the conclusion is -- is what really, I think, gets us to 23 the nub of matters. And I'll also refer you to a subsequent 24 memorandum which arrived today from the County Attorney, and 25 it has to do with Human Resources Code. In the conclusion 8-18-05 jcc 4 1 of the memorandum from the T.J.P.C., it says there does not 2 appear to be a statute that prohibits a commissioners court 3 from delegating to the Juvenile Probation Department the 4 responsibility for operating the facility or reserving -- 5 reserving its fiscal oversight for the facility. In the 6 alternative, the Commissioners Court may also elect to 7 operate the facility as authorized under Human Resources 8 Code 63.002. And then it goes on and talks about other 9 things, about owning and establishing and staffing and 10 whatever, whatever. 11 So, today we have a copy of the pertinent 12 sections of law entitled "Human Resources Code," and I refer 13 -- direct your attention to 63.002, which talks about 14 authorization to operate the facility. A county or a 15 combination of counties may, and they are hereby authorized 16 to, elect to own, establish, operate, and staff a long-term 17 residential facility for the detention of juvenile 18 offenders. It goes on to say that the facility is an agency 19 of the state, a governmental unit, and unit of local 20 government, as specified in certain chapters of the Civil 21 Practice and Remedies Code. Section 63.004 says that the 22 Board of Trustees -- it's titled "Board of Trustees; Single 23 County Facility." The facility shall be governed by a board 24 of trustees under this code. The board of trustees for a 25 facility created by a single county may be the commissioners 8-18-05 jcc 5 1 court of the forming county, or the commissioners court may 2 appoint from the qualified voters of the region to be served 3 a board of trustees no more than five, nor -- no less than 4 five, nor more than nine people. 5 It talks about the board of trustees shall 6 make rules under 63.006. Talks about administration of the 7 facility under 63.008; board of trustees is responsible for 8 the administration of the facility. Under 63.009, it talks 9 about the board of trustees shall develop policies 10 consistent with the rules, regulations, and standards of the 11 Texas Juvenile Probation Commission. Under 63.012, the 12 board of trustees shall appoint an executive director for 13 the facility. Under 63.013, it talks about the executive 14 director; the powers delegated by and subject to the policy 15 direction by the board of trustees. Under 63.014, it talks 16 about the board of trustees; the director may employ and 17 train personnel for the administration of various programs 18 and services of the facility. 63 -- almost the end, 19 gentlemen. 63.015 talks about contribution of property and 20 funds by counties. 21 The important part, I think, is 63.017, under 22 the title "Single County Facility." And Subparagraph (b) 23 talks about the board of trustees for facility created by a 24 single county shall establish rules and regulations for 25 admission of juveniles into the facility from other than the 8-18-05 jcc 6 1 forming county. Such rules may allow that forming county 2 shall have priority in placement, so forth and so on. 3 63.019, board of trustees may make rules consistent with 4 those promulgated by the Texas Juvenile Probation Commission 5 and the policies, principles, and standards provided by in 6 the act to regulate the administration and services of the 7 facility. And 63.020, the board of trustees will provide 8 the following services, which we know to be education and 9 counseling. 10 So, with those thoughts in mind, I wanted to 11 -- I'm glad we're having this meeting today, because I 12 really think it's necessary for us to -- to clearly 13 understand, or hopefully that we can come away from this 14 meeting clearly understanding that since the County took 15 over the operation -- ownership and operation of the 16 facility, we believe the Commissioners Court has the ability 17 and the right under this section of the law to -- to do the 18 things necessary for the operation side, and we clearly 19 recognize that the Juvenile Probation Board has the 20 authority and oversight for the programming, to make certain 21 that the programming that's administered clearly falls 22 within the codes and follows the state law. So, that's how 23 I wanted to set the stage, Judge. 24 JUDGE PROHL: My response is, that's exactly 25 what we thought. And when y'all took it over, that's the 8-18-05 jcc 7 1 reason we said you should be; we shouldn't be. And so our 2 position is that we have -- we have performed and continued 3 to perform our statutory requirements, and everything that 4 has been required by us under statute has been done and is 5 current through January of 2006. And I understand that 6 there are policies and procedures that we have to approve, 7 but that has to do with plans and things. So, we certify 8 that the facility is appropriate for children, and we -- we 9 basically sign off on the policies and procedures to be sure 10 that they're in keeping with T.J.P.C. Basically, that's 11 sort of it, I think. Unless -- we stand to be corrected, 12 but that's been our -- our feeling, was that it was your 13 facility and we didn't want to infringe on that. We didn't 14 want to come in and try to do a budget, because we thought 15 that -- we thought -- and this pretty well substantiates -- 16 this is the first time I've seen this -- substantiates that 17 position. I say "we." I think that's Judge Ables' -- and I 18 don't know if -- Judge Tinley has been more involved with 19 y'all, and I don't know exactly, you know, what's going on 20 in that realm. But I think -- I don't disagree with that. 21 And we couldn't understand how we could have all these 22 alleged authorities when it's a county facility. When it 23 was not a county facility, that was different. So I think 24 we're on the same page, actually. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it sounds 8-18-05 jcc 8 1 that way, Judge, and I appreciate your comments. And I 2 think, you know, for the record and moving forward, I think 3 that we need to adopt a motion or a court order that -- that 4 states that we will be operating the facility under section 5 -- under Title 3, Facilities and Services for Children, 6 Chapter 63 of the Health and Human Services Code -- Health 7 Resources Code, and that sets it out. And I think if we do 8 that, we know who -- who's playing and where they are, who's 9 on first, whose responsibilities are what, and we know what 10 the probation board's responsibilities are, and we should be 11 able to live happily ever after. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Commissioner, I guess -- 13 I think it is very important that we determine -- you know, 14 get kind of on the record officially who has what 15 responsibilities out there, and what was just said is what I 16 thought we were operating towards. I guess what confused me 17 was the agenda that was posted for the Juvenile Board, which 18 included things like consider and discuss adoption of salary 19 scale for juvenile detention officer positions, including 20 facility administrator; consider and discuss approving 21 alternating numbers of pre- versus postadjudication bed 22 space. Those things on that agenda it appeared to me to be 23 things that were -- we were supposed to be doing, and that's 24 where -- I think where I was confused. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's kind of what 8-18-05 jcc 9 1 my notation was when I saw this agenda. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: I think I can -- I think I can 3 explain how that came about. I was provided with a copy of 4 "Standards for Secure Juvenile Preadjudication Detention and 5 Postadjudication Correctional Facilities" promulgated by the 6 Texas Juvenile Probation Commission. And in addition to the 7 matters that Judge Prohl has mentioned that the Juvenile 8 Board statutorily is required to do, and that is to certify 9 the facility as being a proper facility for the detention of 10 children and approval of the policies and procedures, there 11 are other standards in here that require the -- the Juvenile 12 Board or the chief administrative officer of the Probation 13 Department to appoint a facility administrator. Now, the 14 only -- the only oversight that -- that existed heretofore 15 is either the County or the Board -- the Juvenile Board. 16 Secondly, the -- the other standards provide that the 17 facility administrator shall assure the implementation of 18 salary scale for juvenile detention officer positions 19 adopted by the Juvenile Board. So, that's where those 20 things came from on the agenda. Whether or not the board 21 takes any action on them, of course, may be another issue, 22 but because those were potential issues at the time this 23 agenda was prepared, those things are on there, and that's 24 why they're there. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But is it -- and you 8-18-05 jcc 10 1 obviously have read that and this; I've only read part of 2 this. Is there a conflict between those two items? 3 JUDGE PROHL: I -- it seems like there is, to 4 me. I mean, a little bit, when you read -- the only -- the 5 only thing I think that the difference would be is when you 6 read that, it's like it's a -- not -- before it was a county 7 facility. That's sort of the way I was looking at what -- 8 what Judge Tinley was reading, because you can't -- 9 obviously can't have both parties doing the same job. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. Hopefully. 11 JUDGE PROHL: Yeah. Well, they're not. I 12 mean, I can tell you, there will be one. Probably won't be 13 us. So, I think one of the things I thought in the -- in 14 the memo we got from the -- whoever ordered this from the 15 State, it was talking -- you know, they go along with a lot 16 of pages talking about all the things we should do, 17 shouldn't do, but then it talks about the provision, and 18 that's the 63.002, which authorized the County to elect to 19 own, establish, operate, and staff a long-term facility. 20 And as -- as a remaining option, it's within the authority 21 and discretion of the Commissioners Court to utilize or 22 repurpose the facility as it sees fit. I don't know if 23 that's what they're talking about that they have to -- you 24 have to make some kind of a designation that's different 25 than what it is. 8-18-05 jcc 11 1 And I -- I hope, you know, the County 2 Attorney can give us some guidance as to -- as to what we -- 3 but our statutory -- my understanding, our statutory 4 authority is very limited, and -- very limited, and it's 5 sort of an oversight thing to be sure that -- that, 6 particularly, that where we house out-of-county kids, we 7 certify on behalf of the county to other counties that sign 8 contracts with us -- with the County -- that, yes, the 9 facility is adequate, and that's our main obligation. But, 10 you know, the contracts are your contracts and between 11 y'all, and obligations between y'all, and the budget's 12 between y'all. And so I -- and I think that that's sort of 13 what I see. When I -- when I looked at what Pat was looking 14 at and looked at this, I said, you know, there's -- there's 15 some wavering as to -- as to authority. I don't think 16 that -- if that's not a statutory requirement that we have, 17 then I think we can -- we can say we're just going to do A, 18 B, C, D, and it's yours, and then you're still within the 19 statute. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Rex? 21 MR. EMERSON: I can shed -- I can probably 22 shed some light on that. On July 28th, Kevin Stanton and I 23 had a two-plus-hour conversation with T.J.P.C. with their 24 staff attorneys, and I think it was their administrator, 25 wasn't it? And what they said was that, because the 8-18-05 jcc 12 1 majority of the facilities -- as a matter of fact, I think, 2 like, 99 percent of the facilities in the state are run 3 under the Juvenile Board through the Juvenile Probation 4 Department, that their protocols and their commentation 5 required are written around that effect. The actual -- the 6 actual text of the statute says that there shall be a single 7 facility administrator on-site that's designated to oversee 8 operations, and then the commentary's where it goes into the 9 Juvenile Board and the Juvenile Probation Department being 10 able to set that. What was -- what was imputed to us was 11 that if the County is going to run the facility under the 12 code that y'all just discussed, that T.J.P.C. was going to 13 have to rewrite some of their protocols; that there's 14 nothing wrong with it, but their protocols did not reflect 15 that type of operation, because nobody else in the state was 16 doing it right now. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: One of the -- one of the 18 conflicts may result -- and I think Judge Prohl referred to 19 our statutory obligation, and then you have the custom and 20 usage that County Attorney referred to. These standards 21 that are written by T.J.P.C. may have the effect of law 22 inside the four walls of their organization and those that 23 they have oversight authority over, but from the standpoint 24 of statewide, obviously, they don't. We have the 25 Constitution and then the statutes and then any regulations 8-18-05 jcc 13 1 that are promulgated pursuant to statutory authority, but if 2 there's a conflict between the statutes that describe what 3 we are obligated to do or are prohibited from doing, those 4 obviously are going to control over these in-house 5 regulations, I'm going to call them for lack of a better 6 term. They're standards that those people have prescribed 7 for operational purposes for exercising their oversight 8 authority over detention facilities. I think, as Judge 9 Prohl said, the -- I think the statutory mandates are pretty 10 clear. We must certify the facility, and -- and we adopt 11 the policies -- or approve the policies and procedures that 12 are put in place for that facility as part of that process, 13 and I believe that's an annual requirement that we do. We 14 are current on that. We last did it in January, and I'm 15 sure we'll do it next January if we have the facility. But 16 beyond that, I'm not sure what, if anything, on a mandatory 17 statutory basis, we really have the obligation to do as a 18 Juvenile Board. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think if we 20 sorted out -- I believe we're well on the way to sorting it 21 out today, and I appreciate the opportunity to meet with the 22 Juvenile Board to do that. I'd like to offer a motion, 23 Judge, that -- that the Kerr County Juvenile Detention 24 Facility, which is currently owned and -- owned by Kerr 25 County, be operated under Human Resources Code Chapter 63. 8-18-05 jcc 14 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second 3 on behalf of the Commissioners Court. Any discussion or 4 question with regard to the motion on the table? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've just got one 6 procedural question, Judge. Did you call to order a County 7 Commissioners meeting or -- 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure did. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- Juvenile Board? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Both. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Both. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Thank you. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or 14 comments? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Comment. I -- I don't 16 think it's necessary for us to pass an order. I mean, the 17 law's the law. But I'm real excited about voting. 18 (Laughter.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's don't tarry, then. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I really think it 21 is probably necessary for us to establish it. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further question or 24 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 25 your right hand. 8-18-05 jcc 15 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Any 5 other business to be had with regard to that particular 6 agenda item by the Commissioners Court? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing that I have 8 to offer, Judge. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Anybody else? By anybody on 10 the Juvenile Board? 11 JUDGE PROHL: I think that takes care of your 12 agenda. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe it does. Okay, the 14 Juvenile Board has other matters to possibly consider. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do have one 16 comment, though, Judge. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think there are a 19 lot of folks here concerned about the budget and under what 20 scenario we're going to operate this facility. We have had 21 a lot of yeoman work put in by both Ms. Harris in developing 22 many scenarios and Mr. Stanton developing several scenarios, 23 and I think it's for the Court to sort through that, but I 24 don't think we need to do it today. I would -- I would like 25 for you to put that on our next budget meeting agenda, and 8-18-05 jcc 16 1 we'll work our way through to a conclusion. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: If I'm not mistaken, those 3 things that I had on the budget workshop for next Wednesday, 4 that will be posted tomorrow, and I've already modified it 5 to include Juvenile Detention so that -- it was not on there 6 previously because it had been on previous ones, but I -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: But it will be there, I assure 9 you. Any -- any further business before the Court? There 10 being no further business before the Commissioners Court, 11 that meeting will be adjourned. 12 (Joint meeting adjourned at 4:26 p.m.) 13 - - - - - - - - - - 14 STATE OF TEXAS | 15 COUNTY OF KERR | 16 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 17 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 18 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 19 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 20 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 19th day of August, 21 2005. 22 23 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 24 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 25 Certified Shorthand Reporter 8-18-05 jcc