1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Budget Workshop 10 Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11 9:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X August 31, 2005 2 PAGE 3 4 1.1 Consider/discuss Juvenile Detention Facility budget 3 5 1.2 Consider/discuss various budgeting subjects impacting one or more County Departments or County Budget in its 6 entirety including, but not limited to, the following: 7 Extension Service 50 '05-'06 budget summary prepared by Auditor 61 8 Holiday schedule 78 Employee mileage and expense reimbursement 79 9 Capital Outlay items 85 10 --- Adjourned 114 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Wednesday, August 31, 2005, at 9:00 a.m., a budget 2 workshop of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Good morning, ladies and 8 gentlemen. Let me call to order the Commissioners Court 9 budget workshop scheduled for this date and time, Wednesday, 10 August 31, 2005, at 9 a.m. It's just a bit past that time 11 now. We heard from Commissioner Letz a few moments ago. 12 He's running a few minutes late; he should be here shortly, 13 but we will go ahead and get started. The first item on the 14 workshop agenda this morning is to consider and discuss the 15 Juvenile Detention Facility budget that we've been wrassling 16 with innumerable times. Ms. Harris, do you have anything 17 new or enlightening for us this morning? 18 MS. HARRIS: New, maybe. Enlightening? I 19 don't know. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: I see. 21 MS. HARRIS: We have 34 kids today. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 34? 23 MS. HARRIS: 34. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the breakdown? 25 MS. HARRIS: 25 post and 9 pre. Also, we 8-31-05 bwk 4 1 have seven referrals -- kids. Seven referrals. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Those are post? 3 MS. HARRIS: Those are post, yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You mean on their 5 way? Or -- 6 MS. HARRIS: We've got the psychologicals, 7 and we've read their psychologicals and we've accepted them. 8 Some of them have already gone to court and been 9 adjudicated; they're just waiting till September 1, two or 10 three of those counties, so they'll be here next week. So, 11 anyway, I do have -- I do have one more set of numbers I'd 12 just like you to just briefly look at. This is getting -- 13 my folder's not even big enough any more. Let me make sure 14 I'm giving you the right one. Yeah, this is it. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 16 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Before you get into those 18 numbers, Ms. Harris, of the 25 postadjudication residents 19 that you have now, what is the breakdown of those into 20 substance abuse, sex offender treatment, or general 21 programming? 22 MS. HARRIS: Five, six -- six are sex 23 offenders. 24 MS. SCHRAM: Seven. 25 MS. HARRIS: Seven, that's right. Sorry. 8-31-05 bwk 5 1 Seven. I forgot about the Monday intake. Seven are sex 2 offenders, and the rest are substance abuse. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: 18. What is the maximum 4 capacity of your substance abuse program right now? 5 MS. HARRIS: 18. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: So you're full there? 7 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Of the seven referrals 9 which you have that are pending and in some stage of being 10 on the way, what -- what category do those -- 11 MS. HARRIS: Four of those -- of the seven 12 are sex offenders, and three are substance abuse. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The first set of 14 numbers was 9 pre and 24 post? Or was that 25 post? 15 MS. HARRIS: 25 post. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 25 post. 17 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: In addition to actual 19 referrals, what do you have in the way of potential 20 residents in the pipeline, so to speak? 21 MS. HARRIS: The potential residents that 22 we've got in the pipeline are the ones that I indicated that 23 we've got psychologicals on. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 25 MS. HARRIS: Now, we've gotten some phone 8-31-05 bwk 6 1 calls from probation departments that are interested in 2 sending kids, but we haven't received psychologicals, so I 3 don't count those kids as pending intakes until I get the 4 psychologicals and we've approved those. So -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Beyond the psychologicals, 6 what degree of interest are you getting now? 7 MS. HARRIS: A great deal of interest. We've 8 even gotten some phone calls on wanting to send us some 9 female post. Now, we've kind of put them on hold, 'cause we 10 didn't know what was going to be the pleasure of the Court, 11 so we've just kind of put them on hold. Now, the males, you 12 know, we're working on -- we're working on those referrals. 13 The interest that I'm seeing, the phone calls that we are -- 14 that we are getting, indicates that our -- probably our sex 15 offender population is going to increase very rapidly after 16 September 1. Of course, you know, we're full on substance 17 abuse right now. Now, we've got some kids that are going to 18 be graduating, and just food for thought, just for your 19 information, we have three substance abuse boys that are 20 writing letters to their probation officers asking to stay 21 longer, because they just don't feel like they're ready to 22 go home; that they need more treatment. Now, whether those 23 probation officers honor that, I don't know. We don't have 24 any way of knowing that. That's going to depend on that 25 placing county's money. But we have one young man that is 8-31-05 bwk 7 1 there for sex offender treatment. His probation officer has 2 indicated he would like for him to stay longer, plus the 3 juvenile himself is requesting to stay longer. But he has 4 to go back to his home county to go through the court 5 process, so he's going to be leaving on September the 2nd, 6 and if the Court agrees, he'll be back the next Monday for 7 another extended length of stay. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: What is the average length of 9 stay -- the normal length of stay on a sex offender 10 treatment resident? 11 MS. HARRIS: For them to go through the full 12 gamut of treatment, it's a minimum of one year. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that all residential -- 14 secure residential treatment? 15 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And how many of -- of 17 our inmates -- do we call them inmates? 18 MS. HARRIS: Residents. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Residents, excuse me. 20 How many of our residents stay for that full year? 21 MS. HARRIS: Well, since we just started the 22 program, every referral that we've gotten so far, we still 23 have, since the time that we started. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see, yeah. 25 MS. HARRIS: Since we started the program. 8-31-05 bwk 8 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 2 MS. HARRIS: Except for this one young man 3 that's going to have to go back to court to be 4 readjudicated. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that -- 6 MR. HARRIS: To stay longer. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- four months? Five 8 months? How long ago have we started it? 9 MS. HARRIS: We started it in March. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Ms. Harris? 11 MR. HARRIS: Yes? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With 34 juveniles in 13 residence now, as we speak -- 14 MR. HARRIS: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- and the potential 16 of seven referrals on the way, that would get your census to 17 41, right? 18 MS. HARRIS: Correct. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where -- what is the 20 staffing level today, and where will it be a week from 21 today? 22 MS. HARRIS: Our staffing level is right 23 where it should be today to take care of the number of kids 24 we have. If we get to 41, what we have today will take care 25 of 41. 8-31-05 bwk 9 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that will take 2 care of how many more besides? 3 MS. HARRIS: 48. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That will take you to 5 48? 6 MS. HARRIS: That will take me to 48. Now, 7 remember, you're going to have some kids graduating. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. 9 MS. HARRIS: So -- like, we've had -- I wrote 10 it down. We have had six intakes this month, and two 11 graduations for the month of August, so that's a net gain of 12 four kids that we have for this month. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 14 MS. HARRIS: So, we're making ground. We're 15 catching up. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: On your substance abuse 17 program, what is the average length of a resident's stay for 18 that program? 19 MS. HARRIS: The program is designed to be a 20 minimum of six months. The average length of stay is about 21 seven and a half or eight months that the kids actually stay 22 there. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 24 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Politicians are never 8-31-05 bwk 10 1 supposed to say, "I'm confused"; however, there's something 2 that I'm a little bit confused about. 3 MS. HARRIS: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm excited about 5 these numbers. This is great and wonderful. But about a 6 month ago, you stood there and said that the reason that the 7 numbers were down and wasn't going up is because of this 8 particular time of year. 9 MS. HARRIS: That's correct. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When counties run out 11 of money and there's just simply no more money to send kids 12 here. 13 MS. HARRIS: Correct. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What happened? 15 MS. HARRIS: Vicki Spriggs announced that 16 there was $100,000 available for Small County Diversionary 17 money. We've got some kids from that money. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: From small counties? 19 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm, from the Small County 20 Diversionary fund. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Most of this 34 are 22 from that? 23 MS. HARRIS: No. No, the 34 is from -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ten or 15 of them are 25 from the -- from this new money? 8-31-05 bwk 11 1 MS. HARRIS: No. No, we got -- we got two, 2 three, four -- about four or five of them, our newest 3 residents. And then there are some counties that had some 4 money, like we've gotten some kids from Guadalupe County. 5 We hadn't had any kids from Guadalupe County for quite some 6 time, so Guadalupe County had some money. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. Okay. 8 MS. HARRIS: Out of their county fund, I'm 9 assuming. And, too, the kids that we're getting in 10 September that they've already sent us referrals, their 11 budgets kick in September 1, so they wanted to be -- they 12 wanted to have their foot in the door and have their kids 13 accepted so when they have their new money next week, they'd 14 be able to send the kids. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Confusion cured, huh? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sort of. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good enough. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Historically, though, I 20 believe you have said that beginning in late spring, the 21 census numbers at all facilities have a tendency to drop? 22 MS. HARRIS: That's correct. That's right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Because of school being out 24 and funds -- budgets running out of money and things like 25 that. 8-31-05 bwk 12 1 MS. HARRIS: Counties are really watching -- 2 county probation departments are really watching their money 3 at the end of the school year, so, yes, that's a typical -- 4 that's a typical year. We've just been very fortunate this 5 year that -- this has been odd to get this many kids this 6 time of year. That says a lot -- in my estimation, that 7 says a lot for what we're doing, 'cause the word is out with 8 other counties. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm looking at the -- 10 your new pro forma -- pro forma. We'll call this Number 11 11 or whatever. 12 MS. HARRIS: Oh, this is 13. This is Number 13 13. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I must have missed 15 two somewhere along the line. And it's interesting. 16 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I note that you 18 projected it on 100 percent. 19 MS. HARRIS: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your revenue stream 21 at 100 percent. So, if we were to -- if we were to migrate 22 that down to a 70 percent factor for basic -- for purposes 23 of trying to look at an entire year, the ups and downs of an 24 entire year, 70 percent of the 48 resident beds is 34. And 25 my question is, can the staffing on the 70 -- what will the 8-31-05 bwk 13 1 staffing have to be on a 70 percent scenario so that your 2 expense load is reduced accordingly to your revenue load? 3 MS. HARRIS: Okay. It's going to depend on 4 what the Court decides about the long-term postadjudication 5 girls. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Explain that a little 7 bit more, please. 8 MS. HARRIS: Okay. Because -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Help us through it. 10 MS. HARRIS: Because you have to keep the 11 postadjudicated girls separate from the postadjudicated 12 boys. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 14 MS. HARRIS: You have to keep them separate 15 from the preadjudicated girls and the preadjudicated boys. 16 So you, in essence, have four different populations; pre 17 girls, post girls, pre boys, post boys, and you got to keep 18 them all separate. Now, if you do away with -- if we phase 19 out the post girls, then you're down to three populations. 20 And if you have to, if it's an emergency situation that, for 21 whatever reason, you have to put pre boys with post boys, or 22 pre girls with post girls, you can do that, but you still 23 have to have two separate staff. You got to have a separate 24 staff taking care of the pre boys and a separate staff 25 taking care of the post boys. They even have separate daily 8-31-05 bwk 14 1 schedules; never the two shall meet. But you can put them 2 on the same dorm for sleeping purposes if you have to, which 3 we've had to in the past. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, if we determined 5 that part of that female -- one of those female populations 6 aren't going to be there for the future, that would then -- 7 that would then reduce your staffing requirements to what? 8 MS. HARRIS: What I have on the front page of 9 this, and what I indicated to you last week, that I had 10 added two full-time female staff. I originally had 16 11 detention officers. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 13 MS. HARRIS: That will take care of the three 14 different populations that would be at the facility if you 15 phased out the post girls. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 17 MS. HARRIS: I went back and had second 18 thoughts, and I put two full-time females in that line item, 19 because you're going to have female pre's. You may have 20 one; you may have five. You may not have any, but the very 21 next day you may have six. If you go strictly with 22 part-time female J.D.O.'s, your likelihood of being able to 23 pick up the phone, call somebody, and get them there if you 24 have a female intake, you're running the risk of somebody 25 not being available to get there to take care of the female 8-31-05 bwk 15 1 intake. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 3 MS. HARRIS: So, if you keep two females on 4 full-time staff, you would be assured that you would have a 5 female that you could rely upon to take care of the pre 6 females. So, what you see -- what you see on -- as far as 7 staffing is what we have today and what it takes for 48, and 8 we have 34 kids today, and that's your 70 percent of your 9 48. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 11 MS. HARRIS: So, what you see on here 12 wouldn't change. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many post females 14 do we have right now? 15 MS. HARRIS: Six. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Six? 17 MS. HARRIS: Six. And three phone calls from 18 counties wanting to send us females. What I did on this 19 budget was, the budget that I gave you last week, on your 20 revenue, I gave you the figures for ten sex offender 21 juveniles. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 23 MS. HARRIS: And 26 -- and I think I put 26 24 other residents, and that would have included substance 25 abuse and just general corrections. I went back on this, 8-31-05 bwk 16 1 and I left the substance abuse at 18; I didn't increase the 2 substance abuse, because I believe -- I feel very confident 3 and comfortable that we can keep 18 substance abuse kids. 4 We can keep those beds full. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They're full right 6 now. 7 MS. HARRIS: They're full right now. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At the reduced rate, 9 not at the $115 rate? 10 MS. HARRIS: No, 'cause you can't charge $115 11 for substance abuse kids. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I see. 13 MS. HARRIS: Okay. I increased the number of 14 sex offender beds, because the indications that we're 15 getting from out in the field and the phone calls we're 16 getting and the referrals that we're getting, it is 17 conceivable that we'll have a dorm full, which is 12. We'll 18 have a dorm full of sex offender kids, and probably some 19 overflow. So, that's why I put 18 sex offender kids in that 20 line item, which increases your revenue. Where I think 21 your -- I think where your population's going to fluctuate 22 from the 100 percent of 48 beds is going to be on your pre 23 end, and some of your post. But the majority of what I'm 24 hearing from probation officers, in talking with them, and 25 the phone calls that we're getting and the interest that 8-31-05 bwk 17 1 we're getting -- Mrs. Schram is our -- and she's here today; 2 she's our sex offender therapist. She talks to the 3 probation officers, and she's getting a lot of positive 4 feedback as well. It's not just me, and it's not just Skeet 5 that's hearing this, that our sex offender population could 6 increase substantially. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: How many -- how many 8 facilities in the state are there that have a viable sex 9 offender treatment program right now? 10 MS. HARRIS: Four, including us. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Out of a total of 58? 12 MS. HARRIS: 54. 13 (Commissioner Letz entered the courtroom.) 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You missed all the 15 good stuff. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I was hoping. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Where are they 18 located? 19 MS. HARRIS: One is a private one by the name 20 of Pegasus. They're up around Dallas-Tyler area, aren't 21 they? Somewhere around up in there, Pegasus is. 22 MS. SCHRAM: I'm not sure. 23 MS. HARRIS: Lockhart? Lockhart, Rockdale, 24 and us. And -- what's the other one? 25 MS. SCHRAM: Laurel Ridge. 8-31-05 bwk 18 1 MS. HARRIS: Which one? 2 MS. SCHRAM: Laurel Ridge has one in San 3 Antonio, but that's private. 4 MS. HARRIS: Yeah, that's private, though. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: None in close 6 proximity to us? 7 MS. HARRIS: No, sir. I -- Rockdale would be 8 the closest. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For Commissioner 10 Letz' benefit, would you run down your census numbers once 11 more so he could catch up with us? 12 MS. HARRIS: Sure. We have 34 residents 13 today; 25 of them are post, 9 of them are pre's. We have 14 seven referrals in the pipeline. Four of those are sex 15 offender referrals, and three of them are substance abuse 16 referrals. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm ready to talk 18 dollars. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Four -- one quick 20 question on this. This is based on 100 percent occupancy? 21 MS. HARRIS: Yes, it is. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'd like to work off 23 of this recap comparison. I think the County Auditor 24 provided it. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The one Tommy did? 8-31-05 bwk 19 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. One page, 2 compares Facility Administrator estimates versus Chief 3 Probation Officer estimates. And I think either the Auditor 4 or -- or the Chief Probation Officer can answer my 5 questions. The -- the significant difference in the two 6 estimates are not on the revenue side, they're on the cost 7 side, and the differences are significant; they're about 8 $300,000 a year. So, tell me how we have that much 9 difference in the estimated costs. What's the -- what's the 10 difference in the Chief Probation Officer's estimated costs 11 and the -- and the Facility Administrator? 12 MR. STANTON: The main difference in the two 13 are the administrator's salary is not in -- in the figures, 14 and there's also some other administrative positions that 15 have been cut out of that budget. It's basically salaries 16 is the -- is the biggest difference. That's basically the 17 only difference. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What I see here is 19 the best possible or the lowest cost to the taxpayers 20 scenario we've seen is the Chief Probation Officer estimates 21 that a 48-bed facility, pre and post, at 80 percent would 22 cost us $71,000 a year. At 100 percent, it would be out of 23 the red. So, I think my question is, don't we start with 24 the -- the best case scenario and say why not that? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- and I don't -- 8-31-05 bwk 20 1 it gets into a -- in my opinion, a -- a personnel issue, and 2 it's something that -- you know, it's a -- I don't know if 3 -- I'm looking at Rex now. If -- I look at this as a 4 personnel decision as to how we run that facility, and I 5 would rather -- really rather have that discussion in 6 executive session if we can. And I think it qualifies, 7 because we're talking about basically a change in personnel, 8 being the administrator. I also had some concerns -- you 9 know, and I'm -- I don't have a preconceived notion one way 10 or the other on that. I suspect I know some things, but I 11 think it's a -- and I just don't want to get into a -- a 12 debate between the Chief Probation Officer and our current 13 administrator there. I think that's bad for everybody. And 14 I think that's how I look at it, is it's a personnel 15 decision and it's a hiring decision. The other question -- 16 or part of that decision is going back to the Juvenile 17 Board. Based on the -- what I think the last memorandum 18 from the County Attorney says, is that the Juvenile Board 19 has to approve the administrator. And I think I'd leave -- 20 you don't? We can do it totally? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It talks about the 22 credentials of the administrator. Is that correct? 23 MR. EMERSON: Correct. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, I 25 agree with you, and I'd like to have that conversation. I 8-31-05 bwk 21 1 think that's our next step, is to try to rationalize, why 2 not the best case? And I agree that it should be in 3 executive session. And just -- part of the commercial area 4 is that personnel costs are what we deal with. That's -- 5 our budget is people, primarily. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's a -- you know, 7 there's -- well, that's -- what I said is what I said. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I've got a 9 question regarding that, to Kevin. Mrs. Harris said that 10 there is potentially new bodies coming here from certain 11 probation departments around the state. Are you familiar 12 with those specific ones? 13 MR. STANTON: No, sir, I don't -- I don't -- 14 I mean, I know that the counties place more kids in 15 September than they do in August. You know, or October. 16 But I -- I don't have any -- I don't have any knowledge of 17 the psychologicals or what they received at the facility. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm sorry, I didn't 19 state my question properly. Are you familiar with those 20 people in those probation departments in those other 21 counties? 22 MR. STANTON: Do I know other chiefs? Is 23 that what you -- 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Those particular ones. 25 MR. STANTON: No, sir, I don't know -- I 8-31-05 bwk 22 1 don't know who -- I don't know who they've been in contact 2 with. No, sir, I don't. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Can we move to 5 executive session? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't think we can do it on 7 the agenda we've got posted, Commissioner. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, let me -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're shaking your 10 head yes, we can? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is it we can't on the 12 agenda, or we can't on the topic? 13 MR. EMERSON: You can't on the agenda. On 14 the topic itself, you can move to executive, talk about 15 specific personalities, performance and so forth, but any 16 decisions you make are going to have to be in open court. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure, I understand that. 18 But I have questions that I need -- that relate to someone I 19 would hire or ask any person in the county that was thinking 20 to hire a position, you know, to both of them. And, you 21 know, until -- I can't move much further than we are until I 22 have those questions answered. And I -- 'cause it's a -- 23 it's -- you know, I need to understand the differences. And 24 I think that they're personnel and things of that nature 25 driven. So I don't -- you know, I certainly don't want to 8-31-05 bwk 23 1 have another meeting, but I don't see any other way around 2 it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: If you want to go into 4 executive session, I think we're going to have to post 5 another meeting for the appropriate subject and provide for 6 executive session. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm wondering, 9 Commissioner, are we talking about questions regarding 10 personnel, or are we talking about questions regarding 11 personnel philosophy, staffing philosophy? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My questions go to 13 qualifications. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mine are a little 15 bit different; mine are more organizational. The question 16 I'd like to answer is, should we merge the two organizations 17 to get economies of scale and reduce personnel costs? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that goes to 19 philosophy of operation. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Philosophy, I think, does 21 not qualify -- I don't have any problem doing that, but 22 that's not -- that's a piece of the puzzle, in my mind. 23 That's not the entire puzzle. I need to -- mine goes to 24 qualification-type issues. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, my questions are 8-31-05 bwk 24 1 similar, but I'm going to ask them right here in open court. 2 Is the fact that Mrs. Harris seems to be the type of person 3 or administrator that knows how to go out and market and 4 visit with other -- visit with probation officers and 5 counties and county judges and those kinds of things, to 6 market people to come in here -- it's pretty obvious to me 7 that she has done that, and done a great job. And then my 8 same question goes -- and that's what I was trying to ask 9 you. Do you have that same ability? Not necessarily to go 10 to a convention and hand out your little flyers and that 11 kind of -- I'm not talking about that; that's a waste of 12 time. But to know those people and have somewhat of a 13 relationship with other probation officers around the state 14 and other counties to do the same thing, actually? I mean, 15 we -- we can call hers marketing; we can call yours 16 relationship or whatever you want to do, but it -- the end 17 result is the same. Or would it be the same? That -- 18 that's where my questioning is going to be. Can you do the 19 same thing as Mrs. Harris does with her marketing skills? 20 That's the question. And the answer is? 21 MR. STANTON: The answer is yes, I believe I 22 could. I mean, I believe I know the same people she knows, 23 because we are in the same business, I mean, so yeah, I have 24 relations with other chief juvenile probation officers who 25 place kids. Yes, sir, I do. 8-31-05 bwk 25 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And it's just as 2 simple for you to pick up a phone and call Billy Bob up in 3 Ector County and tell him, "Hey, send us some kids; we're 4 open for business," and you could do that just like anyone 5 else could? 6 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir, I can use the phone 7 like anybody else could. (Laughter.) 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Don't get cute on me. 9 MR. STANTON: I'm sorry, sir. It's a hard 10 question to answer, because, you know, everybody has 11 different philosophies and different skills. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's going to be one 13 of the questions, though. 14 MR. STANTON: Oh, I know. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm trying to get it 16 out here in the open. 17 MR. STANTON: Right. Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I did have a participation 20 form filed, I assume in connection with the Juvenile 21 Detention Facility. I want to give this individual an 22 opportunity to speak, if she so desires, while we're still 23 on the subject. I'm not sure how quickly we're going to 24 move off of it. It looks like we're at somewhat of an 25 impasse, but Ms. Moore? You -- do you wish to speak? 8-31-05 bwk 26 1 MS. MOORE: I do. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Please come forward and 3 identify yourself and tell us what's on your mind. 4 MS. MOORE: With the reduction in -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: You'll need to give us your -- 6 MS. MOORE: My name's Connie Moore, and I'm a 7 JDO with the Kerrville Juvenile Detention Center. And with 8 the reduction in budget from the probation, he's reduced 9 staff, but he didn't recognize what staff members he was 10 reducing at. He said it was upper management. In the upper 11 management that we have out there, I don't know what upper 12 management he would be decreasing that he didn't think would 13 be an important position for him to have. We have trainers 14 that train all of our people that come in. We have our 15 people that work with our time cards and vacation time and 16 all this kind of stuff. I think all those people are 17 important, so I didn't know if he was planning on taking all 18 of that and making his position to be all one person. I 19 would like for him to kind of clarify that. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think we can 21 shed some light on that, perhaps. And Commissioner Baldwin 22 properly got us in the discussion, and we're not going to 23 get into names and so forth, but there is a -- some of the 24 distinction between the two proposals has to do with 25 therapists, preadjudication coordinator, cooks, control 8-31-05 bwk 27 1 operators, training officer, and placement officer. And in 2 Ms. Harris' proposals -- multiple proposals, those positions 3 appear. In some of the proposals we received from the Chief 4 Probation Officer, those positions are missing, which 5 prompts the question in my mind, is -- you know, if we have 6 a facility as of today that has -- whatever number -- 34 7 juveniles there, and seven or so in the pipeline, can we 8 operate with fewer of these people as -- as we are being -- 9 as is being proposed or not? 10 MS. MOORE: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a question I 12 think, in my mind, we have to sort out. 13 MS. MOORE: Right. Well, all the training -- 14 all the training that's expected whenever you go in and to 15 be able to do it appropriately, and then to stay in 16 compliance as -- as you rotate first aid, CPR, everything, 17 your PRT's, to be able to do it properly, you need to have 18 management in that position that can be proficient and -- 19 and help and be there, because some people get it really 20 quick and some people don't. You have to follow back up. 21 And if you don't have the proper staff there to see that, I 22 think it would be really important to take that in mind, 23 that you do need to have that, and to have the procedures to 24 be able to follow through with. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- you know, I 8-31-05 bwk 28 1 guess the way I look at it -- and I'm sorry I missed the 2 first part of the meeting, but to me, we're down to two 3 options; we have a 48-bed facility or we have no facility. 4 Those -- that's what's on the table, in my mind, now. Based 5 on Ms. Harris' proposal as it is, I'm leaning towards no 6 facility at all, because that's -- it's less of a cost. It 7 costs the taxpayers less money to shut it down than it does 8 to operate it as it's being operated. And maybe that's the 9 right thing that we need to do and, you know, where we'll 10 end up. But I also look at the -- I see Ms. Harris has done 11 a tremendous job in turning it around in the past nine 12 months -- almost nine months, and I can see a glimmer of 13 light at the end of the tunnel. But I'm going to have to 14 ask her, probably, really to look at another proposal and 15 see if there's any staff reductions that can be done -- you 16 know, I'm not saying it has to be the same as the Chief 17 Probation Officer's proposal, but I'm saying it's got to be 18 more than what I see. 19 MS. MOORE: Right. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't know if 21 that's possible. And that gets into some issues that I'm 22 not real comfortable -- you know, we start getting more into 23 the personnel side that -- 24 MS. MOORE: I was just looking at that as an 25 overall thing, too. But the facility itself -- I'll just 8-31-05 bwk 29 1 say this, and I'll go sit down -- is an awesome program. 2 And we have a lot of -- a lot of kids out there, and it's a 3 kid program. It's not about staff; it's not about trainers. 4 It's not about that. It's all these kids that we're helping 5 out there. And if y'all have never been out there and have 6 seen what goes on out there, it would be fair to the kids 7 across the state of Texas to go out there and look. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And there's no question. 9 I think -- I have been out there, and I think it is a 10 facility -- I've been out there since Ms. Harris has been 11 running it; I think it is a great facility. The issue comes 12 down to -- and it's a -- it probably sounds very cold, but I 13 have to look after the taxpayers of Kerr County, not the 14 youth of the state of Texas. And that's just -- you know, 15 it's a harsh statement, but that's just what I have to look 16 -- what my job is. And so that's kind of where I am, and I 17 don't know if we can proceed further or not. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, Ms. Moore. We have 19 some other folks that have asked to be recognized, I assume 20 on this issue. If you would, in turn, come forward and 21 identify yourself and briefly tell us what's on your mind. 22 MR. KING: Yes. Commissioners, Judge, my 23 name's Cullen King; I'm one of the shift supervisors out at 24 the detention center. Commissioner Letz, you'd said that 25 taxpayers is one of your main concerns right now. I'm a 8-31-05 bwk 30 1 taxpayer of Precinct 1, and in my opinion, I think that as 2 taxpayers and citizens, it's our obligation to provide 3 programming like we're providing so that we, in turn, as 4 taxpayers, aren't paying for adult offenders. If we can fix 5 the issue now, we need to fix the issue now. And I've been 6 at the facility for two years. I've seen -- I've been under 7 two different administrators. I've been through the 8 allegations. I've been through numbers of 18 and 19 kids, 9 barely breaking even, and I can say that the reason we're at 10 34 right now is because of the programs and because of the 11 marketing that Mr. Wilbanks and Ms. Harris has done. And 12 I -- I feel real strong about this issue, because I feel 13 like, personally, I've been called to work with troubled 14 youth since I was 16, 17 years old. I felt like this is the 15 line of work that I need to be in, and here's where I'm at. 16 And I feel like that if we can provide the type of 17 counseling that we're providing now, that we need to 18 maintain that. Because, heaven forbid, I'd hate for a 19 taxpayer to be paying for adults when we could have 20 corrected the issue as juveniles. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. Yes, ma'am? 22 MS. LEBOW: Morning. My name is Lisa Lebow, 23 and I'm a JDO at Kerr County Juvenile Facility. And before 24 I came here, I worked at a T.Y.C. unit for eight years, and 25 a lot of the -- it was an all-male facility, and a lot of 8-31-05 bwk 31 1 the guys that came in had nothing in their past but being 2 locked up, locked up, locked up, locked up, and that's all 3 they knew. And we started having some type of therapy for 4 them and trying to turn some of them around, and sometimes 5 we did and sometimes we didn't. Sometimes they were just 6 too far gone. And I think that the program that we have out 7 there is -- it's really good, because I've seen the other 8 side of it, and this end of it is -- hopefully, it will keep 9 them out of T.Y.C. and out of the adult prisons. And it's 10 really, really important, and I don't think a lot of y'all 11 really understand that. If y'all could go through T.Y.C. 12 and the adult prisons and then see what we're doing out 13 there, it should make a difference. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, ma'am. 15 MS. LEBOW: Hopefully y'all will take that in 16 consideration. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Judge, every -- I'm 19 probably being very redundant, but every departmental budget 20 we review, whether it's an appointed head or elected head, 21 we don't -- we continue not to deal with the issue that 22 we're a very costly county, and the reason we're a costly 23 county is we got more people. And the answer I keep getting 24 from everyone is, we either have the right number of people, 25 or we don't have enough people. And I can't rationalize 8-31-05 bwk 32 1 those things. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, if you look at 3 the two scenarios, as you have done, prepared by -- the 4 comparison put together by the Auditor, the Facility 5 Administrator's proposal at 100 percent shows negative 6 balance -- fund balance of $62,000, and at 80 percent on the 7 Chief Probation Officer, $71,000. Those are almost in sync, 8 when you really get down to it, so it really boils down 9 to -- to the staffing levels. And, as you pointed out 10 earlier, there's about a 300, $315,000 difference in 11 staffing requirements, and somehow or other we've got to 12 grapple with that, because I think therein lies the answer 13 of how we get to where we need to go. Which philosophy is 14 best? Which one can produce the results that are necessary, 15 required, and which one will continue -- enable to us 16 continue marketing these programs successfully? Apparently, 17 we've enjoyed some success in marketing to-date, or 18 Ms. Harris would not be able to report to us that there are 19 34 juveniles in residence and another seven on the way, so 20 we undoubtedly have enjoyed some success in that regard. 21 The question is, how do we get from where we are today to a 22 balanced or close to a balanced budget? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else we can do on 24 this particular subject at this point? 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I want to make one 8-31-05 bwk 33 1 more comment and kind of piggy-back off Commissioner Letz' 2 point that we are hired -- elected and hired by the 3 taxpayers of Kerr County. And this year, this facility, we 4 will go into the red around a million dollars. And 5 regarding some of the comments from the employees, I wasn't 6 hired to take care of taxpayers of El Paso County or any 7 other county. I was hired to do this job, to take care of 8 the taxpayers of Kerr County. And so, you know, looking at 9 this whole thing and all these great sums of money, in my 10 opinion, a lot of it is going back to one of our original 11 conversations, is that we're taking -- we're spending a lot 12 of Kerr County taxpayers' money to take care of people from 13 another county. And that, to me, is step one. And I can't 14 even get my brain wrapped around step one. I just think 15 that's a wrong thing to do. That's all. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further? Or do we 17 move -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tommy? 19 MR. TOMLINSON: I think Dr. Troxel has 20 something to say. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Dr. Troxel? 22 DR. TROXEL: I'm Dan Troxel, superintendent 23 of the schools in Kerrville Independent School District. 24 And, Judge and members of the Court, I appreciate this 25 opportunity to come and speak to you about an additional 8-31-05 bwk 34 1 aspect of the juvenile facility that I want to make sure all 2 of you are aware of. There are obligations that I have 3 throughout -- and opportunities to speak to the State 4 Legislature. I've spoken many times to our school board, 5 and I'll say the same thing to this esteemed body, and that 6 is that I do not set policy. As a superintendent, the 7 obligation -- the role that I have is to inform people who 8 do set policy what their decisions will have and the 9 ramifications they will have. And I wanted to pass out to 10 you, and I've passed out to several members of the audience, 11 an analysis of the revenues and expenditures that the 12 facility is actually costing or generating for Kerrville 13 ISD. And if you'll go across the sheet with me a little 14 bit, I can show you what the impact of this is on the 15 taxpayers of Kerrville ISD, which are also taxpayers of Kerr 16 County; they pay to both entities. 17 The average daily attendance is a little bit 18 different than what you may have for enrollment, and the 19 reason for that is the State calculates average daily 20 attendance based across a long period of time. It's the 21 number of kids that are in our facility for the entire year, 22 and then it's also kids that are in actual classrooms, and 23 that can vary, because a student may be placed in isolation 24 for some type of event or may be ill and not able to come to 25 the class that day. So, you actually may have more students 8-31-05 bwk 35 1 enrolled in your facility than you have the average daily 2 attendance. We took just the first three days of the school 3 year to look at '05-'06; we had 24 to 26 kids at that time 4 that were enrolled, and as you've heard, that enrollment has 5 gone up. 6 You can look at the second line; that shows 7 you the state revenue we get based on those students. Now, 8 funding for education is a little bit different than funding 9 for other entities from the state. The type of student you 10 have enrolled determines the amount of revenue that you 11 generate. If you have a regular student who has no special 12 education needs, has no other needs whatsoever, that student 13 generates less money than a student who actually has special 14 education needs. So, when the facility enrolls individuals 15 who have greater hardships in their life, actually, we 16 generate more -- we generate more revenue from the state. 17 And then you look at the next line, and that's our 18 expenditures. And that's very important, 'cause we have 19 payroll. That's the five teachers that we have out there. 20 We have to have five teachers. We have four in the core 21 subject areas; science, social science, math, and English 22 for the postadjudicated students. And then we have one 23 teacher for the preadjudicated students, because there's 24 usually less students in the preadjudicated unit, plus 25 they're there usually for much shorter durations of time. 8-31-05 bwk 36 1 We also have a halftime counselor that we 2 send out to the facility who helps with various issues like 3 counseling, but also looks at schedules when these kids are 4 transitioned back to their home counties, particularly the 5 postadjudicated kids. We have contracted services. That's 6 for any individual who comes out and does training, and we 7 have training that we do with our teachers, and we allocate 8 the training per teacher across our entire district. So, if 9 we do training with the entire district, the juvenile 10 facility gets charged their correct allocation based on five 11 teachers being there. We have a supply budget, which we 12 have gone down significantly, as you can tell. We've gone 13 down across the district significantly on our supply budget, 14 and still making sure our teachers have what they need. And 15 then we have travel, and travel may be just a teacher who 16 has to go to a workshop, that may have to come to central 17 office for a meeting. There may be a special education 18 student that they're going to have an ARD on, and that's a 19 special meeting, and they have to travel to that meeting; we 20 pay for their mileage. 21 And so you can see, then, the excess revenues 22 are deficit. And I've heard some of the comments made about 23 the money that K.I.S.D. makes off of this facility, so I 24 wanted to be clear on this. In '02-'03, and if you look 25 down even further, it says number of students needed to 8-31-05 bwk 37 1 break even. In '02-'03, we needed 34.4 students. We had 41 2 that were in that facility, and so actually K.I.S.D. made 3 $6,948 that year on the students that were in the facility. 4 That's almost $7,000 to the plus for the taxpayers of the 5 Kerrville Independent School District and your taxpayers. 6 '03/'04, it dropped to 32 students, and because our property 7 values are going up in Kerr County, under what is called the 8 Robin Hood school of finance system, as we have more revenue 9 coming in from the local taxpayers, we get less state aid, 10 and so you actually see that we have less students. We have 11 a drop in the amount of revenues we made, and actually we 12 had a deficit that year of about $6,500. 13 Last year, due to a lot of the issues at the 14 facility, the numbers dropped, average daily attendance, to 15 22. We ran a budget deficit of $114,000. $114,839 was our 16 budget deficit; that's what it cost Kerrville ISD last year 17 to keep that facility open. If you look at the bottom of 18 the page, $114,839 is one cent on our tax rate, so last year 19 we could have actually lowered taxes for the citizens of 20 Kerr County that are in K.I.S.D. one penny. Now, this year, 21 we've obviously had to hire teachers. We've had to put them 22 on a contract, because they're going to be out there, and 23 under each teacher's -- they get a contract, the 24 professionals; it's under state law. There's $262,000 25 obligated already to pay for those teachers. If you close 8-31-05 bwk 38 1 the facility tomorrow, we still have to pay those teachers. 2 That means we'll have no students out there; we'll generate 3 no state revenue at all, because there will be zero 4 students. That means that if you close it tomorrow, the 5 K.I.S.D. will have raised taxes two pennies more than what 6 is needed. We could have lowered taxes two pennies this 7 year without that facility being open if we had known that 8 back in June or July, but since that's already obligated, 9 those teachers have to be paid. And that's the equivalent 10 of two cents, so it does cost the taxpayers of Kerr County, 11 those in Kerrville ISD, if you shut that facility down 12 tomorrow, two pennies on the tax rate. And that is quite a 13 bit of money, actually. 14 So, I just wanted to be clear on that, that 15 it's very important -- if you do decide to look at whether 16 you're going to hopefully keep the facility open or 17 hopefully close it down, depending on what your perspective 18 is in the audience, it's important that you look at the 19 timing of when you close down the facility, if you're going 20 to go that direction. That's a critical factor. If you 21 decide to keep it open, you can see that we're going to need 22 about 48 students. If you have 48 students out there, we 23 should just about break even. And what I'm hearing this 24 morning is, it's going to be about 48 students that we're 25 looking to have enrolled, so if we can get the enrollment up 8-31-05 bwk 39 1 to 48 children, the net impact to K.I.S.D. will more than 2 likely be neither a gain nor a loss; it will be just about 3 an even. If we close it down this week or this month, it's 4 as much as a two-cent loss to the taxpayers of our county, 5 at least those in K.I.S.D. I don't know if you have any 6 questions about this, but I thought it was important for you 7 to realize that there is a bigger issue than just Kerr 8 County; it's also an independent school district issue. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, what, basically, 10 you're saying is that our decision needs to be made in June. 11 DR. TROXEL: Well, actually, your decision 12 needs to be made for the following year in late spring, 13 because we start off in contracts with teachers in March. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: March? 15 DR. TROXEL: And so we would need to know by 16 March whether or not you were going to hold that facility 17 open. And what would happen to these five individuals, just 18 so you know, we would absorb them. We always have people 19 retire, people move on, and we would absorb them. They 20 would have jobs. They are Kerrville ISD teachers. As a 21 matter of fact, quite frankly, they're some of our very best 22 teachers we have in the district. And Ms. Harris does an 23 outstanding job at that facility. Again, I can't advise you 24 which direction to go. That's your decision, and certainly 25 that's one that you were elected to make. I just wanted to 8-31-05 bwk 40 1 make sure you had all the data and all the facts before you 2 went forward. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Dr. Troxel? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Go ahead. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you count in your 6 A.D.A. even those kids that come from other counties? 7 DR. TROXEL: Absolutely. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And the school 9 district in El Paso counts the ones that we send from here. 10 DR. TROXEL: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, does it -- how -- 12 how many days does a client/student/prisoner have to be here 13 before you can include him in your A.D.A.? 14 DR. TROXEL: Just one day. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: One day? 16 DR. TROXEL: Because it's a cumulative over 17 the year average daily attendance. And it used to be, years 18 ago, and that may be some of the issue, that there was one 19 day, and it was called a snapshot day. That was the day we 20 took enrollment. Actually, it used to be even periods 21 during those days; we would take it second period at the 22 second-year level. That's no longer true. We have the 23 capability now, with the very good data system that the 24 State of Texas has developed, to look across the whole year, 25 look at every period. Those students, by the way, also 8-31-05 bwk 41 1 count on our accountability scores. If they are here in the 2 last day in October, which is called the snapshot date, they 3 take the State-administered test when they come -- when it 4 comes around in the spring in February or March. Those 5 students count against Tivy High School's scores. They are 6 considered Tivy High School students by the State of Texas. 7 It's something Harvey Hilderbran, our state representative, 8 was trying to get legislation passed to get changed, but 9 unfortunately the Legislature bogged down this last session 10 and wasn't able to get that enacted. So, not only do we 11 count them in the A.D.A.'s; those students that are there in 12 October and stay through the testing time count in our state 13 accountability scores. And I'm proud to say, last year -- 14 and there were only a handful -- every one of those students 15 passed. That's the quality of teachers that you have out 16 there working with these kids; many, as Ms. Harris can 17 testify, who come in reading significantly below grade 18 level. It is really a -- a real compliment to her and the 19 staff out at the juvenile facility. They do really 20 miraculous work with the kids. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The A.D.A. is a good 22 thing. The testing could be a bad thing. 23 DR. TROXEL: It could be. It's helped us in 24 the past because the students have done well. But as we get 25 more students for long-term, which is what we're looking at, 8-31-05 bwk 42 1 my understanding, to keep kids there longer, we'll have more 2 and more students who count against Tivy High School or the 3 district's accountability, because they also go in the 4 district's accountability system. The State is looking at 5 taking them out of Tivy High School's accountability system 6 and rating, but still keeping them as a part of the 7 district, and that's going to be a Texas Education Agency 8 decision, hopefully within the next month or two. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: You expect there to be a 10 decision out of T.E.A. along that line? 11 DR. TROXEL: We do. Because in the last 12 legislative session, not the one that just ended, but the 13 one prior to that, there was a direction from the 14 Legislature that we need to count all students, regardless 15 of what kind of facility they're in, in some accountability 16 system. And what they're saying now is we need to look at 17 what high school -- and most of these kids are high school 18 kids -- did they come from, and hold that school 19 accountable. Not a system that they came to for just two or 20 three months, 'cause they may have been in, you know, the 21 district I came from, Cypress-Fairbanks ISD, for an entire 22 15 or 16 years, and then they get counted on the KISD 23 accountability system in high school. And I believe they 24 will do that. I still believe, though, that they will count 25 them against the district. And, I do believe that schools 8-31-05 bwk 43 1 need to be held accountable for every student, but they need 2 to be our students. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I agree. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Any questions for Dr. Troxel? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This is good 6 information, and it's part of the formula that -- we need to 7 consider that along with everything else. And that reminds 8 me, as an aside, lately, I frequently hear people talk about 9 the City's people and the County's people, and they're 10 saying that our constituents are those that live outside the 11 city of Kerrville. There's not a person in Kerrville, 12 taxpayer or voter or citizen, that's not represented by one 13 of these four Commissioners. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's right. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't see -- I 16 don't view any difference in my constituents that live in 17 Coronado area than I do in Mountain Home area, and I worry 18 about my constituents who pay taxes in Kerrville. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else for Dr. Troxel? 20 Thank you, sir. We appreciate you being here. Any other 21 member of the Court have anything to offer at this juncture 22 on Agenda Item Number 1? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I do. I just 24 had a -- had a thought, that back in -- back in the olden 25 days, once, when we would purchase a police car, we would 8-31-05 bwk 44 1 see the $24,000 that we were purchasing the police car, and 2 never thought about the red lights that goes on it and the 3 siren that goes on it, the camera that goes on it. Or we 4 would purchase computers and never think about this big 5 software package and the maintenance of it, you know, et 6 cetera, et cetera. There's an issue that -- that is -- that 7 relates to the Juvenile Detention Facility in the same way, 8 and that is the maintenance of those buildings. If we -- if 9 we keep both buildings up and running, what is the long-term 10 maintenance? Are there problems with the old building? 11 Problems with the new building? Have we gotten all that 12 resolved? That was a few months ago, we were -- we had 13 some -- actually had sewer running out on the ground, et 14 cetera. But I think Glenn has done a study, and I think 15 we're going to talk about that later on, but I wondered if 16 he had a -- Glenn Holekamp had a comment or two of his 17 recent findings on that old building. That is -- you know, 18 it's like Number 4 just said; it's one of the -- one of the 19 pieces of the cog here that we need to look at, in my 20 opinion. Glenn? 21 MR. HOLEKAMP: Thank you, Commissioner. And 22 a "study" might be a premature statement, but, you know, in 23 all these discussions, I hear 48 beds, 16 beds, whatever -- 24 doesn't really matter -- residents. One of the issues that 25 should have been brought up, are we talking about the old 8-31-05 bwk 45 1 facility? Are we talking about the new facility? Are we 2 talking about a combination of both? There's some issues on 3 the old building. They're very costly issues for -- I'll 4 call them repair. But we're -- for one thing -- and 5 Ms. Harris understands this -- there's no generator on the 6 old building, which should have had a stand-alone generator. 7 That's never been done, and no fault of theirs. That was 8 prior to Kerr County getting that facility, that it was not 9 installed. They have also an air-conditioner, and this is a 10 big unit, a 7.5-ton unit that, in the opinion of the air 11 conditioning people, is nonrepairable, so we're talking 12 about $7,500 there. Now, this is the old building, not the 13 new building, 'cause I really have no knowledge on the 14 maintenance on it at this point. 15 And then some plumbing issues that, due to 16 the nature of the fixtures -- and the Sheriff has got the 17 same situation. Institutional fixtures are a completely 18 different ball game than what you have in your house. A 19 Delta don't work in a facility. So, what you have is -- and 20 it was a facility that was built with low best bid. And I'm 21 not accusing, because this is pretty much standard in the 22 business, is the contractor went out and met specifications, 23 but he didn't say that you couldn't get parts for them. So, 24 we're faced with some replumbing issues, costly repair 25 issues to fixtures and that sort of thing as far as plumbing 8-31-05 bwk 46 1 is concerned. So, you know, this is -- is approximately 2 $20,000 right here, in my estimation, as to -- in the old 3 building. Now, I have no clue on the new building as far 4 as, you know, the condition of it. I hear that they -- they 5 flush the commodes twice a week to keep, you know, 6 everything flowing and working. And -- but I think that 7 part of my concerns are -- is have we defined which 8 building? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The answer is no, we 10 haven't. 11 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But all the 13 discussion right now is around a 48-bed facility versus 14 something less. If it operates at anywhere from -- from 15 anything plus 24 to 48, it's in the old building. If it 16 operates at 24 or fewer, it's in the new building. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. And I guess that's my 18 question. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Am I correct, 20 Ms. Harris? 21 MS. HARRIS: That's right. 22 MR. HOLEKAMP: It's really difficult for me 23 to put numbers into a maintenance budget until we identify 24 that. There's numerous issues that would come into play as 25 far as, you know, supplies and everything else based on 8-31-05 bwk 47 1 numbers. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I mean, 3 everything I'm seeing from all the proposals is that it's 4 got to be at a 48-bed, so it's got to be the old building we 5 have to do. 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, that being said, I 8 mean, at 24, it's shut down. There's just no question about 9 that. 10 MR. HOLEKAMP: I understand. But I have -- 11 and this is my fault. I have not been able to -- to put any 12 numbers as to the -- a lot of these line items because of 13 the unknowns. And I'm not -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 15 MR. HOLEKAMP: I'm not saying y'all need to 16 tell me that today, but, you know, there's some -- the 17 repair thing and custodial maintenance is going to be 18 relative to the numbers -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 MR. HOLEKAMP: -- of residents. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glenn, the -- are there 22 any pieces of equipment in the new building that can be 23 used -- taken out and used in the old building, such as the 24 plumbing fixtures? 25 MR. HOLEKAMP: I really don't know that 8-31-05 bwk 48 1 answer. I couldn't -- 2 MS. HARRIS: I wouldn't -- 3 MR. HOLEKAMP: I have not studied that part 4 of it. 5 MS. HARRIS: I don't know, Commissioner. My 6 first gut reaction would be no, because the fittings are so 7 totally different. Because in the new building, your 8 plumbing fixtures are modern, up to date, whereas the 9 plumbing fixtures in the old building are not. And you 10 can't even get replacement parts. As a matter of fact, I 11 know that -- that Glenn's department has had to fabricate 12 some fittings. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That may be something -- 14 I mean, if we end up, you know, operating the facility, it 15 may be worthwhile looking at that, because I don't see any 16 short-term use for that -- for the new building. 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: But, there again, I'd need the 18 direction from the Court as to, you know, that. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just wanted to point 20 out that there's another piece of the pie that we have to 21 consider. I mean, there's a long-term cost here. 22 MR. HOLEKAMP: And Ms. Harris has worked with 23 me for quite some time on trying to prepare me for this, but 24 -- and it's really difficult with the unknowns of how many 25 residents and which facility and that sort of thing that we 8-31-05 bwk 49 1 need to do. So, I just need a direction, and then I can go 2 from there. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, thank you. 4 MR. HOLEKAMP: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This may be a foolish 6 question, Judge, but I've got to ask it anyhow. With a 7 population that exceeds 24 now, if you were to pare down 8 your population to 24 and operate out of the new facility, 9 what would the corresponding staff reductions be, and where 10 would that take us? 11 MS. HARRIS: You'd have -- you would have to 12 have 12 JDO's and your shift -- and then your shift 13 supervisors, of course. In my proposal, I have control 14 operators, because that's the safest -- in my mind, that's 15 the safest scenario, is to have control operators, so your 16 shift supervisors are free to respond to whatever it is they 17 need to respond to. But it would -- for 24 kids, it takes 18 12 JDO's. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on this 21 particular agenda item from any member of the -- 22 MS. HARRIS: I would request, respectfully, 23 that we try to come to a conclusion quickly. We do have 24 these counties that are waiting to hear, and we need to be 25 able to tell them something. There's a possibility the 8-31-05 bwk 50 1 longer we wait, if -- if you decide to keep the facility 2 open, we may lose some of those kids, because they've got to 3 place those kids somewhere. And so I would respectfully 4 request that we -- that you make a decision quickly. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that -- I mean, I 6 have a few questions I really would like to ask under the 7 personnel side. If we can post a meeting for Monday 8 afternoon -- or Tuesday afternoon, I think we can pretty 9 much make a decision Tuesday afternoon. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That would probably be the 11 earliest. Considering posting requirements, that's the 12 earliest we could get that. Anything else by any member of 13 the Court? Let's move, then, to Item 2, which is kind of an 14 open-ended cleanup item. Some folks are going to -- we're 15 going to let them clear out here for a few minutes. We did 16 not get the opportunity to consider any issues, if there are 17 any issues, relating to the Extension Service. That's under 18 Item 23. Let's go ahead and get that disposed of. 19 Mr. Walston? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Claudio, would you 21 turn the air-conditioner down? I'm about to freeze to 22 death. Please? 23 MR. HOLEKAMP: I got it. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 23? Is that where we 25 are? 8-31-05 bwk 51 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, under 23. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Somebody has stolen my 3 23. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Walston was unable to be 5 with us previously when he was on that long list. Are there 6 any particular items in your budget that is -- the draft 7 that's been worked up by the Auditor and reported to you, 8 Mr. Walston? 9 MR. WALSTON: Not anything, other than -- 10 that's changed since our proposal. The only other thing 11 that we're looking at is -- is the possibility of a 12 part-time secretary position. Which I realize, you know, 13 may not be available, but if it is, we'd like -- if we're 14 able -- it looks like, with the additional funding from the 15 IV-E funds, that we're working on a new position. That 16 would give us four agents and four full-time positions, and 17 one secretary, and that would be more than any one secretary 18 can handle, so we would need to try to figure out some way 19 to work around that somehow. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. That's the only issue 21 that we have that was out of the ordinary? 22 MR. WALSTON: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Any 23 questions? Or -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's contributing 25 to the need for another secretary? 8-31-05 bwk 52 1 MR. WALSTON: Well, we're looking at -- at 2 adding a Juvenile Probation position, which would be funded 3 through IV-E funds, through Juvenile -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Juvenile Probation 5 position? 6 MR. WALSTON: It's a position that will be 7 funded through the Juvenile Probation funds. It's -- it 8 will be a youth position that we'll be working with kids 9 that are on probation, and it will be a part of the 4-H 10 program, and that one individual will be working with those 11 -- with those kids. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does that have 13 anything to do with the gardening program and so forth? 14 MR. WALSTON: They'll be doing some master -- 15 they'll be working with our master gardeners as a junior 16 master gardener program. They'll be working in -- working 17 in character development. We're looking at this position 18 breaking this group into two different -- two different age 19 groups. The younger age group will be working on character 20 development, junior master gardeners and some things like 21 that. The older group would be working with career 22 education, career planning, as well as master gardeners, 23 junior master gardening. So, it's going to be -- it's a 24 whole new program. There's not another one in the state 25 like it. We're trying to get these kids that have, for 8-31-05 bwk 53 1 whatever reason, made a bad choice at some point in time, 2 that they're going to have an opportunity to be mentoring 3 with some of our older senior 4-H'ers that -- and hopefully 4 give them some positive peer pressure. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Question, and I don't 6 know if it's to you or Kevin. I guess it's coming out of 7 Kevin's, is where the money's coming from. Is this position 8 used for -- basically, is it -- how does it tie in with the 9 juvenile facility? Is it all those kids we're talking 10 about, or is it Kerr County kids? 11 MR. STANTON: It's Kerr County Juvenile 12 Probation's kids. It has nothing to do with the facility. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Nothing to do with the 14 facility, so just Kerr County kids. And is there a -- I 15 guess, a benefit at all to the facility? I mean, what I'm 16 looking at, is this a way to get state dollars to help pay 17 for someone that's going to help the facility? 18 MR. STANTON: No, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, this is a totally 20 different program. 21 MR. WALSTON: And we originally -- when we 22 started this, we were trying to go through A & M to see if 23 we could get it as a state position, and they're not adding 24 any new positions in the state now, so we weren't able to 25 get -- you know, the state dollars are -- you may be 8-31-05 bwk 54 1 referring to his rather than Extension dollars. But -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The whole effort is -- I 4 guess, what, six, eight months ago, I started talking to you 5 about this. We want to try and integrate especially some of 6 the younger youthful -- the young offenders for the less 7 serious offenses into the 4-H type programs. They've got a 8 lot of character development, leadership, and mostly it's 9 going to -- it's going to expose them to positive peers, as 10 opposed to what may be largely responsible for them getting 11 where they are, being subject to negative peers. And it 12 also gives the 4-H -- existing 4-H leadership, the children 13 in the program, an opportunity to be mentors and positive 14 influences on these younger individuals and to demonstrate 15 and exercise their leadership that they have learned at 4-H, 16 and it's trying to integrate them into the 4-H programs that 17 are very positive programs for them. 18 MR. WALSTON: And it -- you know, with the 19 number of kids he's talking about, it's -- it would take 20 a -- you know, I think, to make it a successful program, 21 it's going to take somebody that can be devoted to that 22 program. And with the hopes of getting a new FCS agent, 23 we'd get a full staff. If we have four agents in there, 24 it's a handful for Jamie to handle. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How many Kerr County kids 8-31-05 bwk 55 1 would it be envisioned that would work with this new person? 2 MR. STANTON: We're looking at, at any given 3 time, 40 to 60 kids. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How many? 5 MR. STANTON: 40 to 60 kids. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it can be a 7 requirement that they have to go through this program? 8 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir, it would be 9 court-ordered through the court that they participate in the 10 program. Then the other component that they're also -- that 11 they're also going to do is, we're going to be tying it into 12 our community service program, where we're going to be able 13 to expand our community service program to -- right now 14 we're only able to do it on weekends or during the 15 summertime during the week. We're going to expand our 16 community service program also to during the school year, 17 doing it on Saturdays, one Saturday a month, so it's also 18 going to help in that aspect also. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, you're taking a 20 kid that has made some bad choices and putting them in a 21 program where older folks can mentor them and guide them. 22 Where's the down side of that? I like that. 23 MR. STANTON: There's really not. And the 24 financial aspects of it, we -- we are -- initially, we're 25 going to be using -- possibly trying to use IV-E funds, 8-31-05 bwk 56 1 which is federal money that the Juvenile Probation 2 Department receives to pay for this position. We are also 3 going to try this year -- and this will be something new 4 that's never been tried. We've cleared it through Alamo 5 Area Council of Governments the other day when we had our 6 initial community planning meeting that we can also apply 7 for grants through them to fund these positions, and also 8 fund the program. So, we're going to be writing grants 9 through AACOG to do this, and also using our federal money 10 to fund the program. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We need to be running 12 to that kind of stuff, in my opinion. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, I agree. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: We're making some pretty good 15 progress on it, Commissioner. We're trying to move forward 16 on it pretty good here. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's a good 18 investment to make. 19 MR. WALSTON: Any other questions? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions for 21 Mr. Walston? 22 MR. WALSTON: Thank you. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. We appreciate 24 it. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got a comment 8-31-05 bwk 57 1 on the budget. Looking at Page 68 -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Page 68? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Same tab. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Second page in the 5 Extension budget, estimated actual versus requested. 6 121,000 versus 146,000 is a $25,000 increase, or 20 percent 7 increase, and like everything else, that increase is related 8 to people. And I wondered if the performance of the 9 Extension Service hasn't been pretty good while operating 10 one agent short, and question the need to staff up from 11 three to four agents. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are you saying that we 13 shouldn't do the new program, or we shouldn't hire the 14 vacant position? 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Shouldn't hire the 16 vacant position. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Roy, can you go over the 18 duties of the three existing -- 19 MR. WALSTON: Yeah. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- positions? 'Cause, 21 obviously, one's vacant right now. 22 MR. WALSTON: Yeah. In Texas, what they do 23 is we have -- basically, in Kerr County, we have three 24 positions. We have the County Extension Agent, 25 Agriculture/Natural Resources. We each -- we work as 8-31-05 bwk 58 1 Ag/Natural Resource agent. I spend about half my time as a 2 4-H and youth development coordinator. Currently, we have 3 our 4-H County-paid position, which Laurinda Boyd holds, and 4 it's a 4-H Program Assistant, and she works primarily with 5 our after-school program, the club managers, some of our 6 senior and junior council leadership teams, and -- and 7 basically trying to build -- like we mentioned earlier, 8 building community initiative is trying to bring kids into 9 the 4-H programs from other areas of the community. The FCS 10 position is -- is the other state-paid -- Family and 11 Consumer Science position is a state position, which is 12 both -- the Extension and the Ag and FCS are the only state 13 and county-partnered positions that we have here in the 14 county. And her responsibilities are foods and nutrition, 15 family health, diet, diabetes education. And with a 16 community as we have here in Kerr County that's a large 17 percentage of elderly people, it's -- diet and health and 18 nutrition has been a key part of our overall program. And 19 it's -- as well as she works with the 4-H and youth in the 20 foods and nutrition and -- and consumer science categories 21 and areas. So, those are the three positions that we have 22 now. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you go over the 24 salary breakdown as to how the county versus the state 25 funding goes into these salaries? 8-31-05 bwk 59 1 MR. WALSTON: The -- what it is, as far as 2 the county funding, is there's a -- as far as what we're 3 actually putting into it, I really could -- I'll have to -- 4 I'd have to -- 'cause I really don't know what her salary 5 is, or -- you know, percentage-wise, you know. It's -- I'm 6 going to say, percentage-wise, you know, we're looking at 7 probably -- I'm going to say 30 percent is County-funded, 8 not counting travel. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- but -- so, with -- 10 MR. WALSTON: Just salary. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- your position and the 12 FCS position, those are, the majority, state-funded 13 positions? 14 MR. WALSTON: Yes. Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then the 4-H is a 16 majority, or totally Kerr County-funded position? 17 MR. WALSTON: Yeah. Yeah -- yes, sir, 18 Laurinda's is totally Kerr County, but as far as the only 19 two -- like I say, the ag and FCS positions, I'm going to 20 say anywhere from 20 to 30 percent is -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is local? 22 MR. WALSTON: -- is county-funded. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 24 MR. WALSTON: Mm-hmm. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on that 8-31-05 bwk 60 1 particular one? Why don't we take about a 15-minute recess 2 here, and -- 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Great idea. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: -- come back, and we'll start 5 wading through some of these more general items, if we don't 6 have any specific ones to cover. We'll be in recess for 7 about 15 minutes. 8 (Recess taken from 10:20 a.m. to 10:39 a.m.) 9 - - - - - - - - - - 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's come back to order, if 11 we might, to our budget workshop. We were in recess for a 12 few minutes, and we'll come back to order. With respect to 13 Item 2, is there any particular department budget that any 14 member of the Court feels like we need to get back into, 15 either any specific item or in its entirety? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I do, but a 17 little later on in the cap -- probably the capital outlay 18 items, I have one issue. But I think Mr. Letz has some -- I 19 believe he's going to bring something up. Are you? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, I will. The -- we 21 received from the Auditor several days ago this sheet. 22 Tommy, can you explain what's in this? What -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good question. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- made up -- what 25 numbers are in here and what numbers aren't in here, and is 8-31-05 bwk 61 1 there any cost-of-living built into this? Exactly what's in 2 here? 'Cause this is kind of the starting point, in my 3 mind, as to revenues and expenditures county-wide. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good question. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Does everyone have the 6 '05-'06 budget summary? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 8 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, the -- the tax revenue 9 numbers are -- are the taxes on the current levy, so that 10 would be -- the taxes that we collect are really for 11 '05-'06. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what we got from 13 the Appraisal District or from Paula Rector? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At the current tax 16 rate per hundred? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: And then the non-tax revenues 20 are my estimates for '05-'06. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: The -- the expenditure 23 column, all of the -- all the dollars are the same as 24 '04-'05, except for the -- the debt for the 2005 Certificate 25 of Obligation. And there -- there is not a number in there 8-31-05 bwk 62 1 for the juvenile facility. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, you didn't plug in 3 the budget numbers off of -- you just used what was in 4 there? 5 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, I didn't have salary 6 numbers, so I used -- I used last year's budget, is what I 7 used. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: So, that does not even include 9 the longevity and educational increases that are mandated 10 under our existing policy? 11 MR. TOMLINSON: No, it doesn't. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, this -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have that figure yet, 14 just what those numbers are? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: I think the Treasurer does. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: I think she's prepared for 18 that today. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tax anticipation note 21 is what is currently in the budget, not what is projected? 22 MR. TOMLINSON: That's projected. That's the 23 new debt that will -- for the 2005 certificate of 24 obligation. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 8-31-05 bwk 63 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Did we -- is that the 2 last payment on that one, or is there -- 3 MR. TOMLINSON: No, that's the new one. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's the new one, okay. 5 MR. TOMLINSON: The last -- we made the last 6 payment on the other one August the 15th. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's not in here any 8 more? 9 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: What is the tax anticipation 11 note? 12 MR. TOMLINSON: That -- that is for -- wait a 13 minute. Okay, that -- that does come out. I'm sorry, I 14 missed that. That is the old debt. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That is the old 16 number? 17 MR. TOMLINSON: That is the old number. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we're -- 448 comes 19 off of this? 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Wait a minute. You 22 got to plug in a new number. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: I did. I already did. It's 24 about a wash. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 472? 8-31-05 bwk 64 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 2005 certificate of 3 obligation. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, I see it. So, 5 the 448,4 comes out? 6 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we're 448 -- okay. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That gets us 9 about -- that just about gets us in balance on this sheet, 10 but it doesn't include COLA and other things like that. 11 MR. TOMLINSON: Nor -- nor the juvenile 12 facility. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nor the what? 14 MR. TOMLINSON: Nor the juvenile facility. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, what's the '05 16 certificate of obligation? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: He's talking about 18 operational. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: I'm talking about the 20 operating budget. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I got you, okay. 22 MR. TOMLINSON: Nor does it include -- 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, it -- 24 MR. TOMLINSON: -- any of the major 25 increases, like for like EMS, for example. That does -- it 8-31-05 bwk 65 1 does not include that in here either. The reason I -- the 2 reason I gave it that approach was that it's to show you 3 what the fund balance would be if we used the same numbers 4 as we had last year, or for '04-'05. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on the certain 6 tax base that's given to you for '05-'06? 7 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. I don't know if you -- 8 you have that worksheet I did for you a couple weeks ago. I 9 did one to show you what the total increase over '04-'05 was 10 for -- for taxes, and it's 592,000 for -- for the -- that's 11 for the general fund. For Road and Bridge, the increase was 12 approximately 26,000, new money, with -- 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What was that first 14 number? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: 592,374, to be exact. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that's in here. 17 That's in this sheet. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes, it's in there. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The increase is in there. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: And Road and Bridge is 24? 22 MR. TOMLINSON: 27. 27,000 in new money for 23 Road and Bridge. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, I mean, it's just 25 -- intuitively, I'm -- we're further out of balance than I 8-31-05 bwk 66 1 thought we were going to be. I mean, if we received -- if 2 we're looking at holding the line on expenditures on this 3 sheet, basically the same expenditures as we had last year, 4 and increasing revenue by almost 600,000, why aren't we -- 5 where's the problem? Or where are we losing revenue? Are 6 we losing non-tax revenue? 7 MR. TOMLINSON: No, that -- I think the 8 non-tax revenues are fairly -- are relatively flat. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Flat. 10 MR. TOMLINSON: We did lose some for 11 out-of-county prisoners for the jail, but it was -- that was 12 offset by -- by sales tax. I estimated one and a half 13 percent -- or 2 percent increase in sales tax for the year. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So -- well, I guess -- I 15 think I just figured out the answer to my question. The 16 answer is the million dollars we spent on the juvenile 17 facility that went out of reserves this year. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: Yeah. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's why we're here. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: That's why we're at 21 3 million 8 to start with. The loss is in the first column. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We also lost about 24 $140,000, you told us, because of tax freeze; is that 25 correct? 8-31-05 bwk 67 1 MR. TOMLINSON: That's correct. The total -- 2 the total -- the total levy, or the total valuation for 3 '05-'06 was 2 billion, 734 million dollars. The net 4 after -- the adjusted net after the property associated with 5 the freeze was 2 billion, 45 million, so we -- we lost -- 6 there's $700 million associated with -- with the properties 7 that are in the -- that are associated with the tax freeze. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you say 9 700 million? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Dollars? 12 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In tax base. That 14 translates to about $140,000 in revenue? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: $140,000, yes. As you can 16 see, the -- if you add Column 1 -- add Column 2 and 3 17 together, we're almost -- if you use last year's numbers and 18 take away this tax note, we're fair -- we're right -- with 19 those numbers, we have pretty much a balanced budget. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, wouldn't you add 21 Columns 2, 3, and then the final column as well? 22 MR. TOMLINSON: No. I'm -- I'm trying -- I'm 23 comparing total revenues with total expenditures. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think I really would 25 like to see this rerun, plugging in the -- all the 8-31-05 bwk 68 1 longevity, those type of increases, and -- as one. And then 2 another scenario with a COLA of -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Three and a half. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three and a half? I'd 5 say three, but I thought 2.7 was the -- 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 2.6 or -- 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've got the 8 cost-of-living here from the Department of Labor I'll pass 9 out for everybody on the Court right now so you can see 10 exactly what it is. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're welcome. 13 MR. TOMLINSON: I mean, all -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you look at Page 15 2, you get the number. 16 MR. TOMLINSON: Everything that we've done so 17 far, I have loaded in the accounting system. All I -- all I 18 need is -- is -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Salaries. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: -- salaries. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm thinking. 22 We just add the salaries in, because, you know, it -- it 23 appears to me -- I'm afraid that number, that when we put 24 salaries in here, we're not adding any people and we're not 25 adding a new computer system. I mean, that's kind of what 8-31-05 bwk 69 1 it looks like. I -- but, you know, until we run it, 2 sometimes the numbers are different than -- 3 MS. NEMEC: I'll give y'all what I have on 4 that position schedule. I gave Tommy one, and then the 5 holiday schedule's attached there also. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Tell me how I read 8 this cost-of-living data. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The top page shows 10 you the -- if you go to the second-to-last line, the '04 11 where I've got the green highlighted of 183.7, that's where 12 the cost-of-living index was at the beginning of our budget 13 year. And go to -- if you take a look at the bottom line 14 through July, the index is at 188.5, and it's adjusted to 15 the first half to 186.1. When you flip to Page 2, through 16 July, the index shows that cost-of-living adjusted for all 17 consumer goods and services about 3.2 percent, but that does 18 not take into consideration the fact that in the month of 19 August, the index spiked by about a half a point nationwide 20 because of fuel and related charges -- costs. So, you know, 21 3.2 plus whatever is about where we are in terms of what the 22 actual cost-of-living is for our fiscal year. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 3.2 plus whatever. 24 What is the "whatever"? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that's a good 8-31-05 bwk 70 1 question. All I know is that in the month of August, I 2 read, either in the financial pages or heard somewhere, that 3 the Consumer Price Index spiked by half a point because of 4 fuel charges and related costs of fuel. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, that 3.2 could go 7 up to 3.7. It could go somewhere between 3.2 and 3.7. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we need to rerun 9 the numbers with the 3.2? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, I think for our 11 purposes, 3.2 is an acceptable estimate. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Add in all the salary 15 increases. What about -- what about each individual budget? 16 There was some increases just on the lines. Have they been 17 added in, or can we add them in too so we can see the -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Tommy said he's 19 added those in as we've -- he's inputted things we've -- 20 MR. TOMLINSON: Mostly -- well, the changes 21 that we've made to all the budgets are in the system, except 22 for any payroll-related issues. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. All right, 24 I misunderstood. 25 MS. NEMEC: And on my position schedule, I 8-31-05 bwk 71 1 don't have any changes. It's just what's in place now, plus 2 the longevity. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, we need a new 4 run that includes payroll adjustments due to longevity or 5 education, plus 3.2 or 3.5 percent, something like that. 6 MR. TOMLINSON: I'd like to suggest 7 something. Entering all that data into the accounting 8 system is time-consuming. If -- just to save time, if -- 9 would it be okay to -- to load the longevity into the 10 system, and then get one number as far as the -- that 11 relates to the COLA? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As long as we're -- I 13 mean, as long as it's close. As long as the total is, I 14 mean, close enough that we can make a decision on. 15 MR. TOMLINSON: I think -- I think that's 16 reasonable to be able to get the COLA amount that relates to 17 all the total payroll. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Total payroll. But you 19 can adjust, then, all the other related categories as well? 20 The retirement and insurance and -- 21 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, we could apply -- we 22 apply the rate to that, yes. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. That's fine with 24 me. 25 MS. NEMEC: On the position schedule also, on 8-31-05 bwk 72 1 the Juvenile Detention Facility, the ones that were 10's, a 2 step and grade 10, we had talked sometime during the year to 3 bring those up to 12, 'cause we had talked about us not 4 having any 10's, so those are at 12's on my schedule. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 6 MS. NEMEC: And then on the County Attorney's 7 office, I just got his numbers this morning on their 8 positions. You know, they were going to include the Hot 9 Check salary funds that they've been getting, and so I'll 10 have to adjust those three or four employees that it 11 affects. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, how hard is it to 13 give us a number, one including the juvenile facility and 14 one excluding the juvenile facility, the salaries? 15 MR. TOMLINSON: Well, I could give you one 16 total budget without the facility -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Without their salaries. 18 MR. TOMLINSON: -- and then give a separate 19 number just for salaries. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me hack at that 22 from a different angle, if I might. You show no revenue on 23 the juvenile facility, but you do show expenses in the 24 expense side? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: No. 8-31-05 bwk 73 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nothing in there at 2 all? 3 MR. TOMLINSON: I didn't put anything. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, to find out what 5 Commissioner Letz wants to know, we also need to crank in 6 anticipated revenue? 7 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. As well as 9 expense load. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, really, I guess 11 what I was getting at when you -- Barbara's number has 12 juvenile facility -- or not number; her schedule has them 13 included. I'd like to pull all those out and let's look at 14 that as a separate -- I mean, I think we have enough 15 scenarios to know what that does financially. But I'd 16 rather look at it was a separate piece. 17 MR. TOMLINSON: I just felt like that that 18 was such an unknown -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: -- that it really didn't -- 21 it really didn't mean anything to include it in these 22 numbers. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I guess what I'm 24 -- when you go off Barbara's numbers, make sure that those 25 are not included. 8-31-05 bwk 74 1 MR. TOMLINSON: Right. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One more time; I 3 asked you on an earlier occasion. Is the revenue that's 4 received to the County through the Collections Department, 5 is that in here? And, if so, where? 6 MR. TOMLINSON: There -- all that revenue is 7 in the non-tax. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In the tax -- 9 non-tax? 10 MR. TOMLINSON: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, what about the 13 insurance issue and the cost of it? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the number we got from 15 the consultant indicated that we needed to run it to $628 16 per employee per year. If my recollection of those figures 17 is correct, that's how we needed to calculate that. I'm not 18 sure how it's calculated in here, but the figure which he 19 gave us on the projection was -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 8.8. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: -- $627 and 80-some-odd cents, 22 and we can round to it $628 or $630 for purposes of -- of 23 obligation of funds. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: That makes some difference. 25 If we -- if we apply his numbers to the total number of 8-31-05 bwk 75 1 staff, then that will make some difference. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to make 3 an insurance -- we have a pretty good idea. I mean, I 4 didn't remember that number; I remembered the -- that it was 5 an 8.5 percent overall increase. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: But the actual dollar figure 8 number went from 594 or -97 up to 627 and change, was the 9 actual dollar amount that he gave us. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Doesn't that number -- 11 doesn't that number need to be in here somewhere? 12 JUDGE TINLEY: I think the number that's in 13 there is actually a higher estimate than what -- that was 14 made before we had that figure, obviously. And so -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, okay. All right. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: -- I think it'll -- it will 17 make a positive difference in where we are at this point. I 18 don't know what figure was plugged in. 19 MR. TOMLINSON: I think -- I think it was 20 around 650, I believe. Isn't that right, Barbara? 21 MS. NEMEC: Well, actually, what we're -- 22 what we're contributing for the employees right now is $505 23 per month. And when I was getting calls from the different 24 departments, I told them to add 15 percent to that. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How much? 8-31-05 bwk 76 1 MS. NEMEC: $505 per month. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What percent? 3 MS. NEMEC: $6,000 a year. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What percent add-on? 5 MS. NEMEC: 15. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 15. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Which, in my budget, 8 upped it for the Sheriff's Office -- not the jail, but the 9 Sheriff's Office alone, we increased that line item for 10 insurance by 41,936. In the budget preparation which is 11 already in there. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Didn't the consultant 13 indicate to us that the increase was going to be about 14 8.8 percent aggregate? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: That's about right. 16 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: So you can cut that in 17 half. Instead of that 41,000 which is in mine, you can cut 18 it back down to 20,000 just for the Sheriff's Office. And 19 the jail would be that again. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Reduce your number 21 considerably? 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah, it would reduce 23 that. But it would reduce the Sheriff's Office budget by 24 another 20,000, and would reduce the jail budget, what y'all 25 looked at, by -- 8-31-05 bwk 77 1 JUDGE TINLEY: We may have to get with 2 Mr. Looney to make sure we've zeroed in on that number 3 correctly if we need to, but we -- that was part of what he 4 was to do was to give us that figure for budgetary purposes. 5 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: It will reduce the jail 6 budget by 15,000, Sheriff's Office by 20, so you're talking 7 35,000 right there in reductions on what we turned in. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, let's make sure 9 we're -- 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- we're using the right 12 numbers. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 14 MS. NEMEC: So, y'all are saying something 15 like 620, 630? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm saying. 17 MS. NEMEC: And I'm -- you know -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm saying we need to 19 doublecheck that. 20 MS. NEMEC: -- 505 -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because if we're at 505, 22 I know 8.5 percent was the total, and that doesn't mesh with 23 the 630. So, there's -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: No, it sure doesn't. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, we need to check with 8-31-05 bwk 78 1 Mr. Looney and figure out what that -- verify what that 2 number is. I think we can at least dispense with the 3 holiday schedule today. I think we will be here next year, 4 though we may not have some things we hope to have. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I gather we're moving 6 to the holiday schedule, then? 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is this the same 8 schedule we have this year? 9 MS. NEMEC: It is; there's just one day less 10 for Christmas holidays. Last year we had 13 and a half 11 days, and this year I'm showing 12 and a half days, taking 12 one day away from Christmas -- the Christmas holiday. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Because the holiday 14 falls on -- 15 MS. NEMEC: The 24th is on a Saturday, and 16 the 25th is on a Sunday. The bank holiday is on Monday, 17 which is the 26th. And I added -- you know, I figured 18 Friday, half a day on the 23rd. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's good figuring, 20 in my opinion. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: And the Veterans Day holiday 22 was moved to the day, as opposed to the Monday, if my 23 recollection serves me correctly. 24 MS. NEMEC: Veteran's Day, yes. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8-31-05 bwk 79 1 MS. NEMEC: And that's also the bank holiday. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 MS. NEMEC: On the 11th, Friday. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the 4th of July -- 5 MS. NEMEC: Is a Tuesday. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is -- we're doing 7 it on the 4th of July, and that's -- 8 MS. NEMEC: Right. And that's also the bank 9 holiday. And I'll run a new sheet, because I had the bank 10 getting the 25th and 26th, and it's 24th and 25th. So, if 11 this is approved, I'll correct that. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I still think we need 13 to take Texas Independence instead of Martin Luther King. 14 MS. NEMEC: Well, since we're a day -- a day 15 less this year, we can just add it. (Laughter.) 16 JUDGE RAGSDALE: I like the girl's thinking. 17 MS. NEMEC: Would y'all like me to do that? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The trade's what I'm 19 interested in. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I used to know a 21 union steward that sounded just like Barbara. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Have we pretty well got 24 that one thrashed out? Okay, let's come back up from the 25 bottom, I guess. Employee mileage and expense 8-31-05 bwk 80 1 reimbursement. Ms. Mitchell has been monitoring the 2 Comptroller's web site, and apparently they're still 3 continuing to show 34.5. 4 MS. MITCHELL: 35. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Whatever. Earlier this week, 6 the Juvenile Board approved an amendment to the Texas 7 Juvenile Probation Commission master funding contract for 8 '05-'06, and the purpose of that amendment was to set new 9 reimbursement rates. And those rates were $85 for lodging, 10 which we've not been paying any attention to; we've been 11 using actual reimbursement. But the per diem for meals went 12 to $36 a day, and the mileage rate went to 40.5. Now, that 13 has not shown up on the Comptroller's web site. I'm 14 thinking it probably hasn't because we're not -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not in a new -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to the State's fiscal year 17 yet. So -- but the -- the Juvenile Board was, I'm going to 18 say, required to approve it. That was how it was going to 19 work for the coming fiscal year with Juvenile Probation 20 Commission, under those reimbursement rates. So, I can only 21 assume that's what the State is going to. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's also the 23 federal standard now, 40.5. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I just think 25 that we need to simply adopt the state schedule and whatever 8-31-05 bwk 81 1 that's going to be. We probably need actual numbers to plug 2 in somewhere, though. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Well we've -- what we did 4 previously is adopt the state, with the exception we deleted 5 the lodging and provided for actual reimbursement upon 6 demonstration of what that expense was. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'd be in favor of doing 8 that same thing again. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I still kind of 10 like that. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, okay. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Got a question in the 13 back. 14 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Judge? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes, sir? 16 JUDGE RAGSDALE: For many years, the Justice 17 of the Peace, since we're required to do a lot of in-county 18 traveling, which we don't -- we're, I guess, not supposed to 19 turn in a voucher for -- to reimburse us; that's usually 20 out-of-county travel. We were given $100 a month for many 21 years, I think, until maybe two years ago, when y'all 22 decided to just say that that was part of salary and not 23 have a reimbursement line item. But we were given $100 a 24 month for 13 years. And, quite frankly, I can't afford to 25 do this. I've had a -- I notice in my vehicle, I had a 8-31-05 bwk 82 1 50 percent increase in gas; just in gasoline, not 2 reimbursement for using my vehicle for employment. I had a 3 50 percent increase in gasoline since last year. And that 4 is getting to the point that I can't afford y'all any more. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I believe we 6 rolled that $100 in, and I believe there was also an 7 adjustment last year for salary for all elected officials. 8 You didn't lose the $100; it was just added in. 9 JUDGE RAGSDALE: No, I didn't say that, but 10 I'm losing 50 percent now because of fuel. And I'm not -- I 11 don't believe that any of us are really being reimbursed for 12 the use of our vehicle at -- we are not being paid for the 13 gasoline we use. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that every 15 elected official's in the same situation, and -- 16 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Well, I don't -- I don't 17 know of any elected officials that drive a couple hundred 18 miles a month back and forth to the jail -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right here. We do. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're looking at two 21 of them right here. 22 JUDGE RAGSDALE: I tell you what. Should -- 23 maybe we'll trade? Because I -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll be glad to trade 25 that, the dollar -- trade the mileage expenses on yours. 8-31-05 bwk 83 1 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Okay, I'll tell you what. 2 If the Court doesn't want to give us any more gas mileage, 3 then we're probably going to have to cut back considerably 4 on what we do. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What I'm saying is that 6 you're not unique, and I think I'll consider that when we're 7 looking at our budget numbers as we consider everything. I 8 think every elected official that uses their car 9 substantially needs to look at getting an adjustment because 10 of that, but I'm just saying that J.P.'s aren't unique in 11 that area. Certainly, I drive countless miles daily for the 12 county in my vehicle, and I get the same hundred miles that 13 you get. And I think that there are other elected 14 officials -- the Tax Assessor drives, you know, a fair 15 amount because of the substation out -- which is your office 16 also. 17 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Well, she's had to cut back 18 on that, too. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But I'm just 20 saying that the thing -- it is a problem facing all elected 21 officials. 22 JUDGE RAGSDALE: We got off in an 23 argumentative state that we didn't need to get off into. I 24 was just trying to remind you that we are having to curtail 25 -- it is probably a 50 percent increase within a year, okay? 8-31-05 bwk 84 1 And so I'm just asking that -- because it doesn't fit under 2 normal reimbursement, 'cause that's usually for 3 out-of-county travel. All I'm asking is that y'all would -- 4 would help increase that. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree, and I think it 6 is in my consideration to do that for -- 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: In -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- elected officials. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think it was 2002 10 that the $1,200 was folded into base salary, and I think the 11 Judge's point is that if that was still segregated and we 12 experienced the kind of fuel cost increases, we wouldn't be 13 thinking about increasing that $1,200 by 3.5 percent; we'd 14 probably be thinking about increasing it by 20 percent, 15 something like that. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The reality of it is, 17 when we did that, we rolled it in, that $1,200 became 18 taxable income, so it netted out -- it netted down. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It was taxable before. 20 It was taxable income before. 21 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Well, you're supposed to be 22 paying tax on any vehicle reimbursement. You're supposed to 23 be. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. I mean, it was 25 on -- and that's the reason it was rolled in, because it was 8-31-05 bwk 85 1 being taxed. It was part of the salary, so it didn't affect 2 that. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Anyhow, the bottom 4 line is that 3.5 percent increase on $1,200 doesn't pay for 5 additional gasoline. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, it doesn't. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Whether or not we 8 want to deal with that is a -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I think it's 10 probably a good one to weigh with everything else. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Sure, I agree. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Point's well-taken, 13 Judge. 14 JUDGE RAGSDALE: Thank you, I appreciate it. 15 And I can't -- well, that's all right. I'll sit down. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Capital outlay. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I have one. 18 Part of my statement y'all are going to find hard to 19 believe, and that part is that I was down here the other day 20 minding my own business, when a -- (Laughter) -- when a 21 gentleman came to see me, and he had a -- he had a copy of 22 something that he was -- he's a land man. He had been up to 23 the County Clerk's office doing research with his business, 24 and the copy that the copy machine put out, you couldn't 25 read one word on it. There was a whole bunch of lines and 8-31-05 bwk 86 1 just smeared ink, is what it was. So, being the good 2 representative that I am, I trotted down there to see about 3 this microfilm issue in the County Clerk's office, and 4 there's, I think, three copiers sitting there, and not one 5 of them work. Not one. And the place is packed with all 6 kinds of title people. And I just think we need to revisit 7 that a little bit. That was -- that's kind of embarrassing. 8 Of course, the answer is -- in my opinion, is 9 the title companies need to get together and purchase one 10 and put it back there for their use, but I don't see that 11 happening. I don't -- I don't even know if the County Clerk 12 requested anything. I know that there was a conversation in 13 here about it. Her and the District Clerk as well. But I 14 just think it needs to be revisited. And she has handed me 15 something here this morning, a bid of some sort. But, in 16 order to serve -- serve the public, I mean, they have to 17 have copy machines. You have to have one that works. 18 MS. UECKER: Are you talking about copy 19 machines or reader-printers? 20 MS. PIEPER: No, he's talking about 21 reader-printers. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The printer, I'm 23 sorry. Forgive my misuse of terminology. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In relation to 25 microfilm? 8-31-05 bwk 87 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Excuse me. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In relation to 3 microfilm? 4 MS. PIEPER: Gentlemen, it -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: We have one that does print 6 out of three machines, correct? 7 MS. PIEPER: Yes, but it went down when a 8 gentleman -- a land man from Houston was here, and he was 9 very upset as well. So, we took our microfiche and went up 10 to the District Clerk's Office, and their machines didn't 11 work, so then we ended up calling a title company and drove 12 over to the title company, and we were able to use their 13 machines. But the gentleman was not happy, because he 14 needed to get his copies and get back to Houston, and that 15 threw him much later. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, I hope he was a 17 lawyer. 18 MS. PIEPER: In the meantime -- in the 19 meantime, I called San Antonio, and they got a repair person 20 down as soon as they could, that afternoon. But what I 21 handed Buster was a quote for a new one. We can lease it 22 for $200, or we can purchase it for 10,000, $200 a month, 23 plus $400 maintenance a year. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And it's guaranteed at 25 the end of four years that it works perfect or -- 8-31-05 bwk 88 1 MS. PIEPER: Five years. Five years. I 2 believe it would be a five-year contract. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Doesn't it actually 4 say that? Didn't it actually say that? 5 MS. PIEPER: Yes, I believe it does. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. I mean, if -- 7 that's the type of thing that we need; really don't have an 8 option on. We have to do that. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What are our options? 10 What are our options there? I mean, if everything just 11 breaks -- 12 MS. PIEPER: Either fund it or not fund it, 13 and me go through the same thing I've been going through. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do we tell the title 15 companies, you need to go somewhere else? 16 MS. PIEPER: No, I can't do that. I have to 17 produce it. By law, I have to produce copies. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Guess we better fix 19 it, huh? 20 MS. PIEPER: That would be the best solution. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that's not a 22 capital outlay item; that's a -- I mean, the way we're doing 23 it, it's a -- well, I guess if it's 10,000 -- what's the 24 limit? 25 MR. TOMLINSON: 1,000. 1,000. 8-31-05 bwk 89 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 1,000? 2 MS. PIEPER: Our best option on that is the 3 lease-purchase for $200 a month. Rather than buying it 4 outright. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would agree. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That way it's not a 7 capital outlay also. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's built into your 10 operating budget. 11 MR. TROLINGER: And I might mention one other 12 point. What Linda's doing with microfilm is converting it 13 to digital images and putting it on C.D. And instead of 14 having the microfilm available to the -- 15 MS. UECKER: The reader-printers, yeah. 16 MR. TROLINGER: With the reader-printer, to 17 use the computers we have now. And I don't know if you 18 wanted to look at the cost of that. 19 MS. PIEPER: No, I don't. 20 MS. UECKER: I ain't purchasing no more 21 microfilm reader-printers. I'm done. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Why do you not want 23 to look at that, Jannett? 24 MS. PIEPER: Because we are in the process of 25 putting everything on the computer, so there's no sense in 8-31-05 bwk 90 1 having books, scanned items and discs and microfilm. That's 2 just kind of going to add to our -- add to what we've 3 already got. I mean, it's taking us a while, but we're 4 getting stuff in the computer on our system. 5 MR. TROLINGER: I guess you have quite a 6 larger volume than -- 7 MS. UECKER: Well, what I'm going to do is, 8 the stuff that's already -- that we're scanning right now, 9 putting on the system, that's not what I'm talking about. 10 I'm talking about the stuff where I have microfilm only, 11 before we got the imaging system two years ago. That's the 12 stuff I want to get off the film and get it onto C.D.'s. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: What's your cost to convert 14 your microfilm or microfiche to C.D.? 15 MS. UECKER: I think it's three -- three a 16 shot, and that includes the indexing of it as well, and the 17 program to read it on each computer. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Three what? How does 19 that translate to something I can understand? 20 MS. UECKER: Let's see. 21 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Per page? 22 MS. UECKER: 5,400 shots, which is probably 23 two rolls of microfilm, is $162. And I had plugged this 24 into my budget request at, I think, an extra $3,000, 'cause 25 I've got -- I've got about 300 rolls of film I want to 8-31-05 bwk 91 1 convert. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it's -- once it's 3 on -- I'll play boy-dummy here. What's the difference 4 between your putting it on C.D. -- isn't that the same as 5 putting it in the computer, essentially? 6 MR. TROLINGER: It is. 7 MS. PIEPER: But you won't -- I won't have to 8 go look for the C.D. that it's on. I can sit down at my 9 computer and just call it up right there. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But once you get on a 11 C.D., you can just load it overnight. 12 MS. UECKER: Right. Once we get the C.D. 13 made, probably Jonathan will -- Jonathan -- John, sorry; 14 that's you -- will load it. He's advised me that we have 15 plenty of room on the hard drive so that we can load those 16 C.D.'s on the hard drive, and not be able to have to 17 actually go get the C.D. 18 MR. TROLINGER: We do, and that's the 19 long-term plan. Linda's found a very inexpensive way to get 20 the images -- to get the microfilm digitized. Once it's 21 digitized, we simply move it to the -- move it to the online 22 storage. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we have a cost to digitize 24 the microfiche that the County Clerk has in her office that 25 we're dealing with with these reader-printers? 8-31-05 bwk 92 1 MR. TROLINGER: No. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you know how many 3 microfiche you have? 4 MS. PIEPER: Cases. File cabinets. I 5 don't -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, based on -- two 7 of them was $100, or a little bit over. 8 MR. TROLINGER: $80 per. 9 MS. UECKER: Well, two of them will actually 10 be probably about $162. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, about $80 per 12 microfiche. Or -- 13 MS. UECKER: But, now, that's for a roll. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That's for a roll. She's got 15 hers on individual sheets that only have about -- 16 MS. PIEPER: I have rolls as well. I have 17 rolls as well. I have rolls and fiche, the sheets. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess -- I mean, it 19 would be interesting to know what the total -- what it would 20 cost to get yours -- to hurry up the conversion by going 21 onto C.D., and then letting John load them in. 22 MS. PIEPER: But if it's on my hard drive, 23 how's it -- when the web site gets built, how is it going to 24 get -- be put out to the public? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it's in the hard 8-31-05 bwk 93 1 drive, that's Mr. Trolinger's problem. I mean, that's -- 2 that's the whole -- that's where it goes -- it goes to the 3 hard drive and people can access it, right? 4 MR. TROLINGER: The first step is with the 5 indexing of the C.D.'s, that it's digitized, and after that 6 it's all about moving around some files on the computer. It 7 simplifies the -- the -- the expensive step is the $80 per 8 roll, and Linda's found an inexpensive -- that's relatively 9 inexpensive to have that work done. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think we -- we 11 need to get a machine, 'cause this probably isn't going to 12 happen overnight. We have to have a machine that works, so 13 we need a machine. But I'd really be interested to see how 14 much it would cost to get all of yours on C.D. And, also, 15 that would free up one of your records people, correct? 16 Isn't someone doing that right now? 17 MS. PIEPER: No. I have part-time that that 18 fund is coming out of Records Management doing -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. But, I mean, it's 20 still -- dollars are going into it. I mean, and we could -- 21 those dollars could go once we get it changed. 22 MS. PIEPER: And the stuff -- well, let me 23 rephrase that. The stuff my part-time people are doing are 24 things that is not on microfilm or microfiche or the 25 computer. They're doing stuff that I have just in books. 8-31-05 bwk 94 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, who -- I mean, how 2 are you getting -- currently getting your stuff into the 3 computer? 4 MS. PIEPER: Well, because my -- my full-time 5 people -- like, when they get through with daily work, then 6 they're going -- then that's when they're trying to play 7 catch-up with the stuff on the microfilm. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, it will even -- I 9 mean, the sooner we get this done, it's going to help your 10 staffing situation. 11 MS. PIEPER: I don't know. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, they're spending 13 hours in the day doing this, and if we get it done, those 14 hours of the day are going to be used for something else. 15 MS. PIEPER: As long as those images can be 16 uploaded to Ableterm, I don't have a problem with that. 17 That's my concern. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Mr. Trolinger 19 said that's -- 20 MR. TROLINGER: It's doable. 21 MS. UECKER: We did a test -- we did some 22 tests. As a matter of fact, last -- last week or week 23 before, he came back with a C.D. and put it on Ableterm, so 24 it's doable. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 8-31-05 bwk 95 1 MS. PIEPER: But that was a test in your 2 criminal and civil packages. I have -- 3 MS. UECKER: Right. 4 MS. PIEPER: -- my land records package. 5 MR. TROLINGER: For Jannett, this is a 6 long-term issue. I don't think it's a this-year issue that 7 we're going to be digitizing. I just want to bring up, 8 you're looking at a 5-year or 10-year obligation with that 9 machine, and we're going to make a change in that time 10 period. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Pieper, a few months ago, 12 didn't we visit this issue about your reader-printer 13 machines? And I think you had located a reconditioned 14 machine or something of that sort? 15 MS. PIEPER: No, I bought a brand new machine 16 a couple of months ago, but it's the only one that we have, 17 and it -- it did go down on us the other day. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Well, I had some 19 recollection that a few months ago, we had authorized the 20 acquisition of a new reader-printer because you were having 21 problems with it. 22 MS. PIEPER: Right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: So you've got one new machine 24 there now? 25 MS. PIEPER: And it is the only one that 8-31-05 bwk 96 1 works, and I have had to call the repair man out. And we 2 have it in a side room so that we can hopefully detour the 3 public, because if public comes in and -- and we have -- you 4 know, one of the free deputies can assist in using the 5 machine, rather than just turning it over to the general 6 public. But they get swamped in there, and it doesn't 7 always happen. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would -- I mean, if we 9 need a new machine, we need a new machine. That's a given 10 for you to conduct your office, but I still would like to 11 know the cost. And maybe Mr. Trolinger can get it to get 12 the clerk's records into the computer, because it seems to 13 me -- I mean, again, I just heard her say that a deputy, if 14 available, goes in and does this. That's personnel time 15 being, in my mind, wasted, having to go in to that machine. 16 If we can have the technology to get it into the computer, 17 which gets into Ableterm, and then we don't even need the 18 people coming into your office; they can get it off the 19 website. And that's -- 20 MS. UECKER: If we -- if the Court decides to 21 go with the Odyssey package, that would be even easier. 22 Isn't that right, John? 23 MR. TROLINGER: Yes. Well, that's the only 24 way we could provide web access. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 8-31-05 bwk 97 1 MR. TROLINGER: We cannot right now. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: While we're talking 3 about County Clerk issues, can you update us on the status 4 of the purchase of the voting equipment required by -- 5 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- law, and your last 7 communication with -- 8 MS. PIEPER: I've talked with the vendor, and 9 there is another contract that is on the way. They have 10 tweaked it to where it had -- it was listed with three 11 computers, and so he took me down to one computer. I don't 12 know why I needed three. But he adjusted some stuff like 13 that, and he's got it to where it -- it is a little bit less 14 than what we would be allocated from HAVA from the grant. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 16 MS. PIEPER: In order to do this, though -- 17 because he did give us an 11 percent discount, and they 18 could not go in and give more of a discount, because he said 19 if he did us, because they're with the Texas Building 20 Procurement Commission, they have to go all through the 21 state of Texas and give everyone else more of a discount. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But he's not going to 23 give us less than the 11 percent? 24 MS. PIEPER: Excuse me? 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's not reducing the 8-31-05 bwk 98 1 discount, but he's just not going to give us more; is that 2 correct? 3 MS. PIEPER: Right. He's not reducing that 4 discount by any more. He can't. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's my point. But 6 still 11 percent, right? 7 MS. PIEPER: Right. Or whatever percent he 8 quoted, that's correct. However, in order to get the 9 numbers adjusted for what we will be allocated, before, I 10 was going to get the software that I could program the 11 ballot styles myself and do other stuff like that. And he 12 is -- he's had to take that off, and so we will -- each 13 year, we will pay them to do that. But he -- by taking off 14 some of the services, then -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, bottom line is, 16 you're back within the amount that the State gave us? 17 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 19 MS. PIEPER: And the contract should be on 20 its way for the County Attorney to look at again. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- there's a bid 23 on this table somewhere, and I'm wondering, would those 24 numbers hold till October 1? Or -- 25 MS. PIEPER: Yes. 8-31-05 bwk 99 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, if we put it in 2 the budget and not crank it up or do the purchase or lease, 3 whatever, until beginning October 1, and then everybody's 4 real happy, and -- that's what I'd like to see done, without 5 actually voting. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would agree with doing 7 that without voting. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we -- do we need a second 9 new machine? 10 MS. PIEPER: Yes, sir. Unless you want the 11 general public back in your office more, complaining. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All I've heard so far is 13 somebody in Houston. I don't think you have any 14 constituents from Houston that vote for you. 15 MS. PIEPER: No, this gentleman, I believe, 16 was local, wasn't he? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, he is. You don't 18 want him in your office, believe me. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on the capital 20 outlay? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, did you get all 22 that? We need to add that in. 23 MR. TOMLINSON: We can. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: As you heard, in 25 Jannett's budget. 8-31-05 bwk 100 1 MR. TOMLINSON: A lease or a purchase? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Lease one machine. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: 2,400 a year. 4 MS. PIEPER: What about the $400 maintenance 5 a year? 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's 200 plus 400. 7 MS. PIEPER: Isn't that what it says on 8 there? I don't know how that works. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it's 200 plus 400, 10 it's cheaper to buy the machine. 11 MS. PIEPER: No, no, no, not 200 plus 400. 12 The 400, I believe, is just a yearly fee. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Maintenance, 400 a year. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2,800 is what you're 15 saying. 16 MS. UECKER: They usually provide the first 17 year's maintenance free. 18 MS. PIEPER: I have -- I just called him last 19 night, so it's -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: It's 250 a month. 21 MS. PIEPER: Oh, is it? Okay. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Looks like it's going to be 23 about 3,400, including the maintenance. But you're exactly 24 right, the first year -- if they're not wanting to stand by 25 it the first year, I don't want it in the first place. 8-31-05 bwk 101 1 MS. UECKER: That's what I tell them; if you 2 don't give me free maintenance for the year, I don't want 3 it. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, read down in 5 the middle of that -- no, the first page -- yeah. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It said something in 8 there, after four or five years, that you will have a 9 perfectly running machine. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a 11 lease-purchase, right? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: May not run the first 13 three or four years, but after four years, it will be 14 running? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Our rental agreement states 16 that you will have a perfectly operable machine for 60 17 months. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, for 60 months. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: During the lease period. So, 20 presumably, at the end of that 60 months, it's still 21 operable. 22 MS. UECKER: That sounds like a maintenance 23 agreement right there, without -- included in that. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sounds like planned 25 obsolescence to me. 8-31-05 bwk 102 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else on capital 3 outlay? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not right now. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We've talked about 6 COLA, and we're awaiting figures there. 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: You're doing 3.2 or 3.5? 8 I heard both figures. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 3.2. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Two. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 3.5. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Three -- 13 MS. NEMEC: 3.5. 14 MR. TROLINGER: Do I hear 6? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: You joined the union stool; is 16 that correct? (Laughter.) The personnel schedule, we have 17 that. Personnel adjustments. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I really need to look at 19 the COLA -- the number first, and see if there's any 20 latitude for anything else. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Would that be true also as to 22 salary increases over and above longevity and -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Absolutely. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I thought I'd get that. 8-31-05 bwk 103 1 MS. UECKER: What about the issue that we 2 brought up -- and I haven't heard, you know, whether you've 3 decided to consider this or not -- to bring the 12-1's 4 within the offices -- to move that up, as opposed to 5 Maintenance that has 12-1's that don't speak English or 6 whatever? 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I'm somewhat 8 sympathetic to that, but I guess I have to look, really -- I 9 mean, I'd like to see -- the COLA's the most important thing 10 for the current employees, and that affects everybody. I'm 11 looking at the numbers that Tommy's given us. It looks 12 really bad for anything above the COLA. I mean, there's 13 going to, obviously, be a few adjustments. You have to do a 14 few things. We have to buy machines; we have to do things, 15 and that's one on that list. I think that once we get -- 16 the way I look at it is, once we get the new run that's, you 17 know, kind of the -- the base line, then we look at the 18 things that are -- that we'd like to do to make adjustments 19 in certain positions and in all departments, including the 20 computers, going with that long-term, whether we go with the 21 Odyssey program or not. And -- but, I mean -- 22 MS. UECKER: Does that include also merit -- 23 I know I had put a minimum amount in for a merit increase. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 25 MS. UECKER: But I really would like to 8-31-05 bwk 104 1 encourage you to consider the 12-1's to 12-3's, and office 2 staff from 13's to 14's. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tommy, you'll have that 4 number by our meeting on Tuesday? 5 (Mr. Tomlinson nodded.) 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Linda, I would come again 7 Tuesday. 8 MS. UECKER: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just to make sure we 10 don't -- 'cause, you know, we get thinking of lots of 11 different things. 12 MS. UECKER: I understand. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's on my list, but -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me remind you now, 15 we're going to have a meeting Tuesday on the -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Juvenile facility. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- Juvenile facility. 18 We already have a meeting on Wednesday, the day after. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: At 10 o'clock. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: At 10:00. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That's on the local option 22 election for Precinct 2. That one's already plugged in by 23 date and time by prior court order. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why don't we just add 25 to that day, as opposed to -- 8-31-05 bwk 105 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That local option 2 thing may not -- it might not be alive, but we've got the 3 date reserved. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that meeting posted? 6 That's fine. I'd forgotten about that. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: It has not been posted yet, so 8 we can -- we're okay for either Tuesday or Wednesday, but we 9 can't change the date or time of the local option. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do it all Wednesday, 11 then. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm wondering -- you 13 know, we're going into executive session. Would that be a 14 place to discuss this issue that Linda just brought up about 15 the 12-1's and Maintenance employees? And I don't know what 16 all that's about, but it kind of intrigued my ears a little 17 bit. Seems like it will be something that needs to be 18 discussed with the County Attorney. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know if 20 that's appropriate for executive session or not. Is it? 21 JUDGE TINLEY: It's general policy, I would 22 think. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I really don't know. 24 That's what I'm asking. 25 MS. UECKER: It would be general. I mean, 8-31-05 bwk 106 1 it's not going to be -- 2 MS. NEMEC: Personnel. 3 MS. UECKER: Yeah, personnel. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know that I 5 want to discuss that in open court without the attorney, to 6 be honest with you. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Generally, what I've 8 seen so far is that I'm sympathetic with some of the 9 requests for reclassifications, the 12-1 issue. Sympathetic 10 with some of the requests for merits. And, in fact, I even 11 see a couple of salaries that we had a lot of money I would 12 adjust upwards that aren't even requests. And what keeps me 13 from acting on that is that the same issue we're going to 14 have more people next year than we have this year, and we've 15 already got a lot of people. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the other 17 thing -- you know, I don't want to sound draconian, but we 18 had a really bad year. I mean, that's a -- you know, and 19 all the employees need to understand that. We -- we 20 basically took a million dollars out of our reserves, and we 21 didn't have a million dollars to take out of our reserves. 22 And that's why we're -- you know, keep having -- been 23 harping through the whole budget process that we don't have 24 money for a lot of these things. And it's just -- it's not 25 that -- you know, we've had the luxury of a lot of growth in 8-31-05 bwk 107 1 recent years and no big problems. And we had a big problem 2 this year, and it cost us a million dollars to the juvenile 3 facility, and it's just -- things may have to get deferred a 4 year. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Rector, did you have 6 something? 7 MS. RECTOR: I have a question. Do you all 8 have a time frame that you're looking at to wrap all this 9 up? Because -- 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We were going to ask 11 you. 12 MS. RECTOR: -- tomorrow's the 1st of 13 September, and we're not even close to a proposed tax rate. 14 And this year, with the new legislation, I have an 15 additional quarter-page ad that has to be published, and 16 depending on where we go from there, there could be -- of 17 course, then there's the notice of vote, which is another 18 publication that has to be done. And these all have the 19 seven days prior to your public hearing notice before -- 20 that it has to be published, and then you're no less than 21 three, no more than 14 for your vote, so it looks like we 22 are going to go into a new budget year without an adopted 23 tax rate or an adopted budget. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: When's the last day 25 that we have to give you a proposed tax rate? 8-31-05 bwk 108 1 MS. RECTOR: Pardon me? 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: When's the drop-dead 3 date? When do we have to tell you? 4 MS. RECTOR: I think we're probably past that 5 drop-dead time. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would think we're going 7 to be pretty close next Wednesday. 8 MS. RECTOR: To a proposed rate? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Proposed budget. I think 10 it's just a mathematical thing to get from there to -- 11 MR. TOMLINSON: We have to have -- you have 12 to vote on a proposed tax rate. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, I know. 14 MS. RECTOR: You have to have your public 15 hearing -- I know y'all have been all through all this -- to 16 vote on your proposed rate before I even start my 17 publications, and then the time frame there, we're extending 18 -- we're going to be squeaking it close to the end of the 19 month. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Can you give us two scenarios, 21 one worst-case scenario, and work from the back towards the 22 current date as to how the timetable has to work, and 23 another scenario maintaining the current tax rate. 24 MR. TOMLINSON: I don't think that matters. 25 You've already -- if you use the same tax rate, you're 8-31-05 bwk 109 1 already going to have to have the two hearings, because -- 2 MS. RECTOR: 'Cause you're going -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand we have to. 4 MS. RECTOR: -- still going over your 5 3 percent. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we're going to have to 7 have two hearings no matter what? 8 MS. RECTOR: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Unless we lower the tax 10 rate, and I just can't see that happening, unfortunately. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What we need is a 12 calendar. 13 MS. RECTOR: What we need to do, when we 14 decide what dates these things are going to happen, you're 15 going to have to hold the meetings when I say you're going 16 to have to hold the meeting. That's the only way we're 17 going to get it done. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: I understand. We will be 19 looking at -- 20 MS. RECTOR: By the end of September. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: -- the absolute deadlines. 22 MS. RECTOR: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: But you're going to provide us 24 working from October 1 back towards the current date? 25 MS. RECTOR: 'Cause -- and the problem I have 8-31-05 bwk 110 1 is, if we adopt a rate, which is going to be by the end of 2 September, my work begins. Which tax statements will not go 3 out this year till November; I can pretty much guarantee 4 that. Which means there will be no revenue coming into the 5 county for that month, which we normally do have. Plus, all 6 the other taxing entities, I'll be holding them up also. 7 The City of Kerrville, City of Ingram, and U.G.R.A., 8 Headwaters have already -- they've already got proposed 9 rates, and they're already adopted, so once they adopt, 10 they're still waiting on the County before I can even mail a 11 bill out. So, that's revenue that they're not getting in 12 for the month of October either, so I have to consider them 13 also, since I am their tax collector too. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Can we have a 15 schedule with drop-dead dates we have to have so we can set 16 our meetings in advance accordingly? 17 MS. RECTOR: That was one of the things that 18 I wanted to get with the Judge about, and let us sit down 19 and put a calendar together which would work for all of 20 y'all, if that's -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's fine. I mean, you 22 know, if we need to move up -- I mean, if it makes a 23 difference, we can certainly meet next Tuesday, as opposed 24 to next -- and next Wednesday. 25 MS. RECTOR: Because the starting point would 8-31-05 bwk 111 1 be a proposed rate, and that would be -- the budget is going 2 to trigger that proposed rate, as to whether that proposed 3 rate can cover the budget. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If you tell us what 5 is the last day that we can give you a -- a proposed rate, 6 then we'll just -- 7 MS. RECTOR: That's what my concern was, is 8 hammering out all the details of the budget and the 9 finalizing of it, which is what you're trying to accomplish 10 right now. I hate to push you, but that's something that's 11 going to be critical. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think we're pretty 13 close. I think in a few hours, we could -- 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Ask her that again; 15 see if you can get that date. 16 MS. RECTOR: Let me get with Judge Tinley, 17 and we'll -- we'll work a calendar up. And -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay, that's fine. And 19 they're going to get together and do it. 20 MR. TOMLINSON: There's also -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: We're going to get together, 22 and she's going to do it. 23 MS. RECTOR: Well, more or less. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One of the things 25 that's a roadblock to all this is discussing these personnel 8-31-05 bwk 112 1 issues, and we need to dispatch with that so we can move on 2 and make a decision. So, is there any reason why we 3 couldn't schedule a meeting for Friday to do that? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: For Friday? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can't post it in time, 6 can we? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, Tuesday is the earliest 8 we can do that. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tuesday, okay. We 10 got the holiday in the way. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Maybe we need to 12 reconsider Tuesday. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 14 MR. TOMLINSON: You also have a drop-dead 15 date on -- on publishing the proposed budget. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're probably 17 back to a Tuesday meeting and a Wednesday meeting. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we are too. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I do too. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Tuesday at 1:30 is probably 21 what we're looking at. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think the first 24 order of business is to dispose of the juvenile things. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think so. 8-31-05 bwk 113 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Other stuff starts 2 falling in place behind that. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is the executive 4 session on the Juvenile Detention Facility on Tuesday? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Needs to be. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Needs to be. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I would -- I don't 9 know that we need another executive session on personnel in 10 addition to juvenile facility, but we may, 'cause I know 11 there are some -- there's been some other changes in -- 12 personnel changes that we've talked about that may need to 13 be discussed. They may not, but I think we should post it. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do it all at the same 15 time. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think we should 17 post other personnel in executive session at the same time, 18 so we don't get put in a situation that we can't do it. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. And the meeting on 21 Wednesday is for 10 a.m. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That cold air makes me 24 hungry. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else we can get done 8-31-05 bwk 114 1 today, gentlemen? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're right on 3 schedule. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Hearing nothing further, we 5 will adjourn the workshop. 6 (Budget workshop adjourned at 11:44 a.m.) 7 - - - - - - - - - - 8 9 10 STATE OF TEXAS | 11 COUNTY OF KERR | 12 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 13 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 14 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 15 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 16 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 31st day of January, 17 2006. 18 19 20 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 21 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 22 Certified Shorthand Reporter 23 24 25 8-31-05 bwk