1 2 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 3 and 4 KERRVILLE CITY COUNCIL 5 County/City Joint Workshop 6 Wednesday, October 5, 2005 7 1:30 p.m. 8 District Court Jury Room # 2 9 Kerr County Courthouse 10 Kerrville, Texas 11 12 13 Library Operations/Funding 14 15 16 P R E S E N T 17 Kerr County Commissioners Court: 18 PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge 19 H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 20 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 21 Kerrville City Council: 22 CARL MEEK, Mayor Pro Tem 23 TODD A. BOCK, Councilperson, Place 1 DAVID WAMPLER, Councilperson, Place 3 24 CHUCK COLEMAN, Councilperson, Place 4 DON DAVIS, Interim City Manager 25 2 1 On Wednesday, October 5, 2005, at 1:30 p.m., a special 2 joint workshop of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and the 3 Kerrville City Council was held in the District Court Jury 4 Room #2, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and the 5 following proceedings were had in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me go ahead and call to 8 order the posted joint Commissioners Court and City Council 9 workshop agenda scheduled for this date and time, Wednesday, 10 October the 5th, 2005, at 1:30 p.m. It is just a bit past 11 that now. The only item that I have posted on the agenda 12 which we posted was to consider and discuss library 13 operations, funding, and rights and obligations of the City 14 and County respectively concerning those operations and 15 funding. I -- I recognize that the library is an essential 16 government function, and we need to do what we can to 17 provide those services to the citizens the best way that we 18 can. I'm a little disappointed in the attention that's been 19 given to the contract previously, but I'm hopeful, and I 20 think with everyone here having the same mind-set, that 21 won't continue to be the way it's looked at. I have a 22 couple of items, if I might, that I'd like to pitch out on 23 the table. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Before you do, doesn't 25 the City have to open their meeting? 10-4-05 jcc 3 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you want to go ahead and 2 open up -- 3 MR. MEEK: Sure. I'll call to order the 4 meeting of the Kerrville City Council at 1:35, October the 5 6th (sic). 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Keep us legal. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. I apologize for 8 that. I -- I have noted with some interest in the -- in the 9 newspaper that the Library Director has -- has reported that 10 the shortfall in funding -- and I can only conclude that it 11 meant the, I believe, $232,000 in funding; it may have meant 12 some portion or all of it -- could cause some loss in 13 accreditation and could jeopardize some grant funding. But 14 I have not seen any specifics or any information which gave 15 me any circumstances -- factual circumstances under which 16 that would occur or was likely to occur. And I'm -- I'm not 17 aware if anybody has seen those, except possibly 18 Mr. Martinez. And, certainly, if that's a concern, I 19 need -- I need to know, and I would think that everybody 20 involved would need to know at what threshold point that 21 would occur. Or are we just saying, you know, it could 22 occur, as in saying we could have a tornado here? I need 23 the specifics under which that -- that is likely to occur, 24 and I've never seen that. And I'm not aware that any of you 25 gentlemen have, either. 10-4-05 jcc 4 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I can tell you, from 2 the six years I served on the Library Advisory Board, I 3 never heard that concern expressed, nor did I ever see any 4 documentation or presentation to that effect. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I think it's a 6 good question, but I don't -- I guess I'm looking more at 7 trying to go more forward today, as opposed to trying to 8 figure out some of these issues and kind of get -- I mean, 9 my idea of the purpose today is really to get some questions 10 that I'd like to get back from the City. I don't know that 11 -- maybe they can answer them today; maybe they can't, on 12 operations of the library, and resolve one issue that has 13 been addressed in the new contract, but was somewhat 14 unaddressed in the prior contract related to capital items. 15 But the -- and then put a few things on the table. I mean, 16 and I guess I can put it in categories, in my mind. And I 17 think we clearly -- if accreditation is an issue, that's 18 something we need to be aware of. What I'd like to look at 19 is, one, clarify once and for all that the County is not 20 responsible for capital items. I mean, it's been said in 21 court the other day. It's in the new contract in black and 22 white, and that -- you know, that issue. There is, in the 23 budget that I have seen, a capital expenditure item line 24 item, and I think that should be taken out. 25 The other two areas that I would like to see 10-4-05 jcc 5 1 discussed here today or get information back from either the 2 library or from Antonio would be fees. I am a firm believer 3 in user-pay to the extent possible. As I understand it, for 4 library cards, they're free to county residents right now, 5 and city residents, obviously, since they're county 6 residents too. I think they should be charging for that. I 7 think the people that use the library should pay to use the 8 library. It's pretty simple. It may not cover all the 9 costs, but at least it would bring in some revenue, help 10 balance it a little bit there. And, of course, these fees 11 could go -- to me, it's a heck of a lot simpler just to 12 attribute them back, not trying to split them out between 13 the city and county. I mean, it's -- a fee's a fee. 14 And then the other thing I'd like to see on 15 the table is, looking at the library, kind of -- they call 16 it a service review, as to are there things that we can do 17 that don't drastically alter the service, but save money? 18 Maybe some reduction in hours. I heard it -- I think at one 19 of our Commissioners Court meetings, someone brought up the 20 idea of reducing the hours of the circulation desk, even 21 though the library may be open, you know. I don't know if 22 that saves money or not, but anything that we can do to -- 23 to trim some expenditures, I'd like to hear. And then once 24 we get that information on the table, then we can decide, 25 yes, we want to do it, or no, we don't want to do it. And I 10-4-05 jcc 6 1 think the fact that the City -- that we're meeting today, I 2 guess it kind of goes without saying that there's a -- I'm 3 very happy there's an agreement to at least get -- you know, 4 the library operations are open for discussion. Otherwise, 5 we wouldn't be here today. So, that's kind of just what I 6 have on, you know, my plate. 7 MR. COLEMAN: Mr. Chairman? I kind of agree 8 with that individually. We have not met as a Council yet, 9 but I would like to let everybody know that I agree with the 10 resolution that the County put forth regarding cooperation. 11 There's a couple of issues in there that I'm unfamiliar 12 with, like the ETJ development thing. I hope that we can 13 work together and cooperate to get this thing working. I 14 think there are ways in the budget that we could probably 15 reduce some of our costs without -- without impairing or 16 impacting services terribly. I do think, from a capital 17 expenditure standpoint, I think that if -- if we operate 18 as -- as a business, where it's a fair and equitable charge 19 for each -- each governmental entity, and it's -- and it's 20 charged out as a business, or each one assumes their share 21 of the business costs, if you go to any business in town, 22 you're going to see -- you're going to have a fee from those 23 -- from that business, and they're going to -- they're going 24 to charge their operating costs, and they're also going to 25 build into that their capital replacement reserve or their 10-4-05 jcc 7 1 depreciation expense, which previously the County has been 2 paying 100 percent as it occurred, you know. 3 So, you -- you guys take from that concept if 4 y'all are not responsible for capital expenditures, you have 5 a lot of equity that's built up that could have been -- 6 could have been charged on a ratable basis throughout years 7 of its useful life, so to speak. I think it would be 8 complicated to try to get into that, although I'm -- I'm not 9 opposed -- I'm not opposed to that. Whatever does work. I 10 think also -- and I haven't had a chance to talk to anybody 11 about this. There are times when -- and this gets real 12 creative. There are times when different entities have 13 different revenue situations. The County's hurting right 14 now. City might hurt next year. You know, it's going to 15 vacillate back and forth. Maybe there's a way to -- between 16 the two entities, to barter. I know the City is in 17 desperate need of street maintenance and repair, and I know 18 the County has a lot of equipment relative to that. There 19 might be a way where downtime on the county side could be 20 used to build up a barter pool for the city side. I have no 21 idea. It may not be legal, but in exchange for shortfalls 22 on -- on budget funding, maybe. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One thing you mentioned 24 on the County hurting financially, that's certainly a true 25 statement, but one of the things that -- I thought about 10-4-05 jcc 8 1 this as I was driving in today, that I think would be very 2 helpful, probably for -- on both sides, and not necessarily 3 today, but just put it on the table a little bit, is to go 4 into what the other government entity does. I -- my 5 perception is that the City has a whole lot more 6 discretionary money than the County does. We are mandated 7 so heavily by Austin and mandated with every elected 8 official you see, which is equivalent to department heads in 9 the city. We don't have a choice; we have to fund that, and 10 we have to give them the personnel and everything they need 11 by law to serve that function. We -- there's been a lot in 12 the press about the over-65 exemption, but one thing that we 13 have forgotten about that costs more than that is we also 14 had a new unfunded mandate come down from Austin related to 15 indigent defense. It's -- we've put in about $150,000 we 16 had to spend on that. Our indigent health care bills 17 approached you, know, eight -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Almost a million. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Almost a million dollars. 20 Indigent defense, another 500,000, 600,000 a year, and 21 that's with the hope that we never have capital murder 22 trials. If we do that, we automatically put in another 23 200,000 for that one trial. I mean, and those are things 24 that we just don't have a choice on. And that is a lot of 25 the reason that we end up with a lot -- with a very tight 10-4-05 jcc 9 1 budget. And this year is kind of -- somebody referred to it 2 as a perfect storm hit the county, and it did. This year, 3 with the combination of the tax freeze, this new mandate, 4 the juvenile detention facility, it did hit us bad this 5 year. And -- but I think that year-in, year-out, by the 6 nature of our budget and what our requirements are, we 7 probably have a tighter budget every year compared to the 8 City. And I would be -- you know, there might be some years 9 that that's wrong, but -- maybe I don't understand what the 10 City does, but we do -- and library, like it or not, from 11 our standpoint, is somewhat discretionary. We want to do 12 it, but it's a discretionary item. 13 We have to fund the jail; we have to fund 14 lots of other -- you know, all these courts and indigent 15 health care, and that's the law. And library is something 16 that we would like to do. We'd like to do more parks, but 17 we just can't afford it. And I think that is something 18 that, you know, we need to understand that, you know, the 19 County is in a tough situation this year, but we probably 20 are almost every year. And that's why I think we quoted the 21 idea, and City Council has too, of a library district. It 22 gets it into a whole separate realm that it can be funded 23 and get away from the -- at least get it away from Austin 24 giving the County a lot of unfunded mandates that really do 25 kill us every year. 10-4-05 jcc 10 1 MR. COLEMAN: I'm not adverse to a library 2 district myself. I know very little about that, how it 3 might work. I do think, with the County being responsible, 4 as it has been in the past, looking back, for 50 percent of 5 the funding, I do think the County does need to see totally 6 all the budget line items. And then I also think that -- 7 that it should be negotiated back and forth in terms of what 8 the budget should be set at if a library district is not 9 feasible. 10 MR. MEEK: I'd like to say something, take 11 off on what Chuck opened there. I'd really like to know 12 what the County's thoughts are. Obviously, we furnish -- 13 we're in charge of some of the enterprises and y'all are in 14 charge of others. Are you interested in negotiating on 15 every line item of ours and us on yours? Or do you merely 16 want to give input on the line items and ultimately leave it 17 up to -- if it's -- if it's the library, it's the City. If 18 it is Animal Control, it's the County. Do y'all have any 19 feedback on that? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My view is that I want 21 input on the whole process, because you start talking about 22 level of service, and I think that's something -- I think 23 that that has to be negotiated. I don't think it is 24 appropriate for either entity to say this is the level of 25 service we're going to give, period. I mean, I think, you 10-4-05 jcc 11 1 know, we know what our constituents want, which is also city 2 constituents; we have to balance all that out, and I don't 3 think it makes any difference if it's Animal Control or 4 library or EMS. I think that they have to be -- I mean, 5 there's -- there's nowhere else to go, really, for most of 6 those services that make sense for the whole community. 7 MR. MEEK: If I'm understanding you right, 8 you would like everything thrown up for negotiation. What 9 happens when you come to an impasse? Do you, at that point, 10 whoever's in charge of that entity, make that decision? Or 11 do you just sit there and can't agree? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let me see if I can 13 field that, Councilman. 14 MR. MEEK: Okay. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand where 16 you're coming from, and I don't disagree. I think we need 17 to have a greater understanding of what each other does. 18 MR. MEEK: Sure. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In each of these 20 enterprises. We used to have that opportunity. I'm not 21 castigating anything or anybody. And by the presentation 22 of -- of the library budget or airport or whatever, we had 23 the opportunity to look behind the numbers, if you will, and 24 ask the questions, okay? For example, I think y'all -- 25 somebody just said we all need to have a little greater 10-4-05 jcc 12 1 understanding of what the library's all about. A library 2 operation is a complex operation. I ran this question by 3 somebody who is pretty knowledgeable about a library -- and 4 just using this as a case in point or reference. Can you 5 tell me what -- other than general operations, how do you 6 distinguish, for example, technical services from 7 circulation services from patron services and general 8 operations? Now, those are four of five categories or 9 divisions of expense that make up the basic library. Now, 10 if I were to ask you that question, could you give me the 11 answer? 12 MR. MEEK: I could not. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. Case in point. 14 We need to understand exactly what it is and how to do that, 15 and what's behind the numbers. How do we do that? We do 16 that in meetings like we're doing today, with somebody 17 having prepared the sheets -- these backup sheets, which we 18 finally got, and have the opportunity to ask questions. 19 Somebody mentioned a while ago, is there a way to curb -- 20 curb expense without curtailing the basic service that the 21 public has come to understand and appreciate and enjoy and 22 use? I don't know. I really don't know, because I can't 23 tell you whether circulation services are expanded. I see 24 we spend more on circulation services than we do on patron 25 services, which causes me to ask the question, by 10-4-05 jcc 13 1 definition, what are we doing? Help me. 2 MR. MEEK: Well, Antonio can -- 3 MR. COLEMAN: Commissioner, part of the 4 budget includes these narratives that describe each of the 5 functions. If you all did not receive full budgetary 6 information, that would have been a part of that package. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is now, and I have 8 it in front of me. But I'm just trying to make a point, 9 Councilman. Help us understand better. 10 MR. MEEK: I think you make an excellent 11 point. Communication can definitely be improved on all of 12 our joint activities, going both ways, and I applaud you for 13 bringing that up. There is -- there's -- I want to meet 14 with y'all. I'm so glad we're meeting today. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Me too. 16 MR. MEEK: What is past is past. I feel 17 today is beginning of a new day, and we have an opportunity 18 to get over some past hurdles and look for solutions here. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with you. 20 MR. MEEK: Not focus -- we must deal with -- 21 somewhat with the past in order to identify potential 22 improvements, problems and improvements, but I would hope 23 when we've done a good job here today, personalities aren't 24 involved in this at all. This is -- we basically have the 25 same constituents, more or less, and we have opportunities 10-4-05 jcc 14 1 to continue on with our joint operations. If we -- I mean, 2 sometimes administratively, we might get frustrated. You 3 might get frustrated and think, this is so difficult; let's 4 just do our own deal. But that is -- would be a great 5 disservice to the taxpayers to have to fund that duplicity. 6 So, intergovernmental relations -- good intergovernmental 7 relations serve all of the taxpayers and our constituents, 8 and I applaud everyone for being here. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I do too. 10 MR. MEEK: And I, for one, definitely am 11 wide-open to any suggestions y'all have, and let's do -- 12 let's improve our services. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: They are a bedrock 14 issue. 15 MR. MEEK: Absolutely. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And we need to 17 establish it and move forward. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Carl? I want to 19 address your -- your concern about impasse. My opinion is 20 that there should not be an impasse at any point. I can see 21 us running into rocks in the road and hurdles, et cetera. 22 But all good and reasonable men should be able to sit down 23 and -- and sit there. I remember years ago, the City and 24 the County sitting for hours and hammering out minute 25 details over and over and over again, and we would finally, 10-4-05 jcc 15 1 at the end of the day -- and sometimes it took all day to -- 2 we'd get to a point where there was an agreement, and it was 3 a give-and-take type thing. So, I just think reasonable men 4 can sit down and work out anything if you're -- if you're 5 willing to sit at the table long enough. 6 MR. MEEK: Like I say, I applaud that -- that 7 concept, and hopefully that would work most of the time. 8 Maybe it would work all of the time. But I do think you 9 need to be prepared for the what-if situation. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. 11 MR. MEEK: It would appear to me that open 12 communication, access to information, discussions on any and 13 all line items, are in order. But as long as one entity is 14 in charge of that particular branch, I believe the final 15 decision needs to lay with that entity. Otherwise, this -- 16 this process will have a very -- I'm afraid will have a very 17 difficult time moving forward in an expeditious way. But 18 I -- I like what you say. Reasonable people can work things 19 out, and I would like to operate under that assumption, as 20 long as it was progressing. There's -- there's another item 21 that I'd like to throw out there. I know our -- our 22 different entities operate differently. We, as Councilmen, 23 operate through our City Manager. And I know y'all have 24 wanted to be able to go to different entities operated -- 25 let's use the library here -- go to Mr. Martinez one-on-one 10-4-05 jcc 16 1 and ask him any type of line item questions. That becomes 2 pretty burdensome if there are five different people 3 contacting him on different schedules. It would appear to 4 me if we could have joint meetings with us, or say with the 5 City Manager and a department head, meet with y'all at once 6 instead of each one individually, it would be a much more 7 efficient operation. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Carl, I don't have a real 9 problem with that, and I guess in concept the problem comes 10 up -- and I'm probably the one person on Commissioners Court 11 that has the biggest problem with this policy -- is that 12 if -- if I just have a question for any city department 13 head, I don't know why I can't call them. I mean, I just -- 14 really, it makes no sense to me. I'm a taxpayer of this 15 community as well. I can -- I should be able to call anyone 16 I want. Now, if I want to -- if I'm getting into policy and 17 going into saying, "Antonio, generate all these reports," 18 yeah, that's one thing. But if I'm just calling, "Tell me, 19 how many employees do you have?" I mean, to go through a 20 bureaucratic system of me contacting -- need to have a joint 21 meeting scheduled or call the City Manager and then go 22 through that route, that's just a total bureaucracy. 23 MR. MEEK: I will listen to any type of 24 policy idea. That is a policy decision here. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 10-4-05 jcc 17 1 MR. MEEK: I'll listen to any ideas. Let's 2 throw them up on the wall and see what sticks. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 'Cause this -- I mean, 4 and I don't think it has ever been abused by the County, at 5 least by me asking questions of anyone on the City 6 government. But this policy is -- is new. This came about 7 a year and a half ago. 8 MR. MEEK: All right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And prior to that, you 10 know, there was pretty much a -- you know, and that was 11 about the time when Antonio didn't come to Commissioners 12 Court any more. The first couple years, he came at least 13 once a year, it seemed. And before -- you know, and I 14 think -- and I'm just saying Antonio 'cause he's here, but 15 we had Mindy Wendele came occasionally and the Airport 16 Manager came occasionally, and Chief Holloway came on 17 issues, and we communicated. We had this interrelationship 18 that -- Chief Holloway, for example, he works for the County 19 on emergency coordination. 20 MR. MEEK: Sure. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, why should -- when 22 we're -- we designated him. If the City doesn't want us to 23 use Chief Holloway to do some county functions, well, then 24 tell us and we'll appoint someone to talk to us. 25 MR. MEEK: Can you suggest -- you've given 10-4-05 jcc 18 1 some thought to this already -- some type of written idea, 2 some policy? Get together and hatch this out. That is a 3 specific item that I think is important. But that would 4 take a lot of time that we probably don't have here to come 5 to any conclusions. But I would love to see -- there may be 6 some limited pick-up-the-phone-and-call situations where 7 that would be in order. But some guidelines probably -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I understand. 9 MR. MEEK: -- need to be agreed upon. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think it's 11 important to note that we don't -- even though we do our own 12 thing as Commissioners, as opposed to you having a staff 13 that does a lot of work for you -- 14 MR. MEEK: Right. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- typically, we have 16 people assigned to these various functions. 17 MR. MEEK: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Dave now is -- 19 Commissioner Nicholson is now the liaison to airport -- to 20 the library, and I had been for many years. Commissioner 21 Letz and I are the airport and whatever. 22 MR. MEEK: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, you know, I don't 24 think it's going to be a situation where all five of us are 25 calling up Brian or Antonio or somebody else beating on 10-4-05 jcc 19 1 their heads trying to get information. I can channel my 2 questions through Commissioner Nicholson. 3 MR. MEEK: I'm all for the most efficient 4 dissemination of information. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge? It's -- this 6 is getting a little bit unfair. We're getting off the 7 agenda item. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And I've got the City 10 Manager and the press sitting behind me, and that's not a 11 fair thing. If you want to switch chairs, we can just talk 12 about -- (Laughter.) 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are they mumbling at 14 you? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, but I sense -- 16 JUDGE TINLEY: But they can't hear him. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can sense a 18 little heat down there? 19 MR. COLEMAN: I thought you were bigger and 20 could kind of shield it. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: You're right, we probably need 22 to drift more over onto that -- to the library issues, the 23 funding and the operations, as per the agenda. But I -- I 24 found Councilman Coleman's item very interesting, the barter 25 aspect. Because, you know, there may be some things that we 10-4-05 jcc 20 1 can do very, very efficiently that -- that we're not making 2 full utilization of our equipment maybe at a particular time 3 that we can -- what the legalities are, I don't know that. 4 We'll let the lawyers work that out. But I -- I see no 5 problem working out some sort of an interlocal agreement, as 6 long as there's consideration -- it moves back and forth. 7 But that's certainly one possibility that -- that I think 8 bears looking into, so that we might be able to take care of 9 one another, because that's really what it's all about 10 anyway. 11 The -- the situation that we're in now, I 12 understand -- I wasn't present, but I understand that you 13 gentlemen have fully funded what you put in your budget for 14 the library. We are at the point where we approved our 15 budget and adopted our tax rate finally, and so we're kind 16 of plugged into where we are. But if -- if we're going to 17 be able to do better than -- than what we got in the current 18 budget, we're going to need to see if we can find somewhere 19 else within that budget that we can take it from, because 20 our tax rate is -- is fully set. Certainly, if we're -- if 21 we're able to find some -- some amount of funds so that we 22 can provide better assistance, I think -- I think it 23 behooves us to do that, because it is a -- it is a 24 significant function that's performed, and the citizens rely 25 on it. And -- but it now falls in our lap to try and find 10-4-05 jcc 21 1 where we're going to get those funds, if we've got a place 2 to get them, and I think that's going to take some -- some 3 pretty creative work on behalf of our part if we can do 4 that. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, Judge, I 6 identified some at the previous Monday meeting, areas where 7 we could effect some budget transfers. That's not going to 8 be the purpose of this meeting today, because it's not 9 styled that way. And there may be some other ways, other 10 areas of the -- of the existing budget where we could 11 fashion some budget amendments and transfer some dollars 12 into it, but I think we've got to know what it is we're 13 trying to fund. Now, I think that's the purpose of -- of 14 today's meeting, is to have a greater understanding of what 15 is anticipated or expected of the County within that 16 $416,000 budget and whether that -- whether that split is 17 really the split that we want to buy into, or something less 18 than that. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it goes back, to me, 20 to the first item, and Chuck mentioned he thinks that 21 looking at -- if I understood what he said on capital items, 22 that there needs to be some charge for that; maybe not all 23 in one year. Kind of look at it as depreciated-type items, 24 you know, which is interesting. I think it gets a little 25 confusing, but I think the thing you have to remember is 10-4-05 jcc 22 1 that, you know, we don't own anything there, and that was 2 never the intent for the County to own it. Now, if -- you 3 know, granted, we did -- in the last 10 years, have funded 4 some pretty major capital improvement items, elevators and 5 roofs and air-conditioners and things. But if the Butt 6 family had intended the County to own it, they would have 7 given it half-and-half. They didn't intend -- that's not 8 what they did. They gave us -- they gave it to the City and 9 told us to help pay for operations. And whether they're 10 charging on capital items, you know, that can -- you know, 11 certainly they are, but I just don't see how, under the 12 original intent, the County should be responsible for 13 capital items. And I think this is a really important issue 14 to really hammer out now, because the Friends have 15 commissioned a study on expanding, and we're basically -- 16 it's that issue. If -- you know, if the County pays for an 17 expansion, then we're going to own it, and we don't own the 18 other part. I think you really get into a -- a very 19 confusing situation if we don't -- if we start changing the 20 way the ownership is currently set up. 21 MR. MEEK: May I respond? Jonathan, I have 22 not read the original agreement that the County and the City 23 entered into. Maybe someone here has -- okay, Dave has. 24 I'd be curious -- in the deed, when the Butts conveyed the 25 -- Butts and the Holdsworths conveyed the property to the 10-4-05 jcc 23 1 City, was it under the condition that it remain a library? 2 Or would it revert back to their interest -- my whole point 3 is, it's not -- it may not be that we -- we may own it 4 conditionally, is what I'm thinking. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know the 6 answer to that. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I haven't seen that. 8 MR. MEEK: And if that's the case, it's -- 9 that puts a bit of a different color on it. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have no idea. I don't 11 know. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't either. 13 MR. BENHAM: I can answer that in part, if 14 you'll let me. I can't answer your question entirely about 15 the main building. However, when the Friends were -- took 16 the lead, I think you could say, in raising the money for 17 the other two buildings, the one that's now the history and 18 genealogy center and the one which the City is using 19 temporarily for some of its offices, the building between 20 the main library and the history and genealogy center where 21 the Cypress Grill and so forth used to be, that money was 22 donated largely by foundations with very specific 23 conditions, that those properties would be used only for 24 library purposes. There was no -- for instance, the -- the 25 Peterson Foundation's donation of -- don't hold me to this. 10-4-05 jcc 24 1 I think it was 150,000; it may have been more. Anyway, 2 whatever it was, that -- that document said very 3 specifically this money is being given strictly and 4 exclusively for the purchase of property as library -- for 5 library purposes. Now, as I say, I don't know what the 6 conditions are of the main library, but the other two 7 buildings are definitely earmarked or tied down or whatever 8 you want to call it there. 9 If I could add one sentence, and I promise 10 not to make it more than one, I think it's very important 11 for all of you gentlemen to know, if you don't know, there's 12 some confusion over the term "capital investment." And I -- 13 I understand why it's confusing. It shouldn't be, but it 14 is. Federal guidelines require that the purchase of books 15 be shown as a capital investment. Now, to me, books ought 16 to be part of the operating expense of the library, because 17 they have to be renewed constantly. Nondurable goods, I 18 guess you could call them. But the federal government says 19 you have to capitalize -- every time you buy a book, you 20 have to capitalize it. And my understanding of this budget 21 is that the only capital item in that budget is for the 22 purchase of books. Not asking for anything involving the 23 building or anything like that. It's -- 100 percent of it 24 goes for books, and that's a federal government requirement; 25 there's no flexibility on it. And I hope that'll be helpful 10-4-05 jcc 25 1 to you. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Benham, we -- 3 the library will die without books. When we're talking 4 about capital, we're not talking about that line item. 5 MR. BENHAM: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I am. (Laughter.) 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's because it's an 9 ownership of a -- of an asset. And because when we did this 10 contract, I asked the question -- it was in court, not a 11 joint meeting -- as to should we designate out, and the 12 response was, the way I read the contract is that's dictated 13 by law. Our accounting principles -- general accounting 14 principals dictate what "capital" means. And I said, okay, 15 that's fine, as long as we understand if we're going to go 16 by the federal law, it says "capital." If that's not what 17 we intend, the contract we just signed needs to be amended, 18 'cause it says capital. And we were going by federal law. 19 So, I think that -- you know, and I think it's odd, but 20 that's in the agreement we just signed. So, for next year, 21 books are not included, in my mind, because it says it's 22 excluded right there. And, I mean, I just want it to be 23 open for discussion, which it is. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think it's an 25 anomaly. If -- if you open a law office and you buy books, 10-4-05 jcc 26 1 you don't capitalize them, you expense them. And I don't 2 know what possibly the purpose of the federal law could be. 3 One thing that occurred to me is that when you go for 4 grants, you usually can't get a grant for expense items from 5 a private foundation, so maybe the reason books are called 6 capital is to facilitate the -- the application for grants. 7 MR. MEEK: I think what Chuck was saying 8 earlier, if I understood him -- and jump in here if I -- I 9 believe he was drawing the conclusion or the assertion that 10 if it's not a capital item, you're still -- if you're -- if 11 you're providing a service, built into your fee as the 12 provider of the service is going to be enough to cover 13 replacement of capital items. Is that what you were saying? 14 MR. COLEMAN: It is. I personally think it's 15 better if everything is done on a -- on an equitable -- fair 16 and equitable fair market value basis to the extent that it 17 can be. And if it were a situation where it was fair and 18 equitably charged -- fair and equitable charge to the County 19 for their portion, the City would be in a posture where 20 they'd have to take capital expenditure and amortize it over 21 time and -- and recoup that, as would any other business. 22 Now -- now, all of that being said, I do think it gets too 23 complicated. I don't think we can do it. It's my way of 24 saying, Jonathan, that I really understand what you're 25 saying, but I also think that that capital is really a part 10-4-05 jcc 27 1 of that operating cost of that -- that library. Now, I'm 2 not adverse to researching dual ownership of the library. I 3 know that with the airport -- I'm not sure how that 4 occurred, but with the airport, it's dual ownership. 5 There's a board that manages it through the City as the 6 contract manager, and everything is fifty-fifty. There's a 7 lot of grants received from -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: TexDOT. 9 MR. COLEMAN: Yeah, and other -- the aviation 10 organization, that kind of thing. If there's not anything 11 in the deed, if -- if it doesn't create some kind of legal 12 issue, maybe that is a possible solution, along with the 13 library district. And then that way, the County wouldn't 14 necessarily feel that they were funding capital expenditures 15 for something that they don't own. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I'm glad you 17 mentioned library district, because I think, you know, what 18 we're -- we really should be talking about -- you know, we 19 should be talking about the future, and I'd like to find a 20 mechanism by which we can avoid having a repeat of this type 21 of discussion over the library in the future. In my mind -- 22 in my mind, that is a library district, a county-wide 23 library district, where the operation of the -- of the 24 library, expense the capital items, everything, is spread 25 all over the entire tax base. And that gives the City and 10-4-05 jcc 28 1 the County both the opportunity to pull that amount that 2 we're spending right now out of our respective budgets, and 3 we have a separate board that administers and oversees and 4 the whole bit. I think that is the long-term solution. And 5 if that's not the long-term solution, I'll be available for 6 anybody that wants to try to convince me otherwise, but I 7 think that is the long-term solution. 8 MR. COLEMAN: Do you believe that can be done 9 without an increase in taxes? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think we can be 11 creative about it and probably achieve that, Chuck. I 12 really do. I think we can sit down, and with that as a 13 task, and -- and try to structure that and look at the 14 numbers, to the finite numbers, and come to that conclusion. 15 But, frankly, I think so. 16 MR. COLEMAN: I personally don't -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You don't think we 18 can? 19 MR. COLEMAN: No, I wouldn't be adverse to 20 that. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 22 MR. COLEMAN: I agree with what you're 23 saying. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It scares me to talk 25 about creating new taxing entities. My guess is what will 10-4-05 jcc 29 1 happen -- we've currently got a library that costs a million 2 dollars a year, right at a million dollars a year. My guess 3 is what would happen is, we'll create a new taxing district 4 -- library district, and that would come -- and the budget 5 would be a million dollars or more, and you would not see 6 the City of Kerrville or Kerr County drop their budgets by 7 half a million dollars each. It would just be another 8 million dollars of ad valorem taxes collected. 9 MR. COLEMAN: Well, then, I would not want 10 that situation to occur, obviously, nor do I think anybody 11 else would. And maybe an alternative is to explore half 12 ownership of the library by the County. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I don't think 14 it has to be the way my colleague says it could be. Sure, 15 it could be that way, but if we both honorably go into it 16 and tell the public that we're going to ask their support to 17 create the library district, and pledge to them that we'll 18 relieve our existing budgets of the corresponding amount of 19 dollars, we've made a pledge to the public, and if we don't 20 -- and if we don't live up to that pledge, then, you know, 21 vote us out. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to look 23 at the library district. I mean, if we -- you know, it 24 needs to be looked at. We need to understand how it will 25 work, where the money will come from. That may take 10-4-05 jcc 30 1 legislation to give a tax -- it would take legislation to 2 give a taxing authority, and take a vote of the people also, 3 I believe. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the people -- you 6 know, I'm pretty much in favor of putting things before the 7 people. If they want the library expanded and bigger, 8 better, new buildings -- 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I agree. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- let them tax 11 themselves for it. I'd much rather have that than, you 12 know, the current setup. That way, the -- the voters are 13 controlling, basically, the future. So, I think we need to 14 look at what the -- you know, how we -- who researches it, 15 the County Attorney's office or the City's office or 16 Representative Hilderbran's office, I don't know that, but 17 we plainly need to do that and come back in several months 18 with the options there. Maybe the Friends or the Library 19 Advisory Board are the best vehicle to look at the options. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I support that, 21 Commissioner. I think we ought to go down that path and -- 22 and look at it, see how viable it is, and they hold an 23 election, and if -- if the taxpayers wind up getting stuck 24 with more taxes, they'll have a -- they'll have a say in it. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the -- the two issues 10-4-05 jcc 31 1 that -- and that issue we can't resolve. We can commit to 2 look into it, and that's about as far as we can go, I think. 3 Or the City, through the Library Manager -- or City Manager, 4 I mean, can they tell me, please, what can be done? What 5 the current thing is, how much is coming in from fees? I 6 can see that; very little. Is there a problem with raising 7 fees to help generate revenue to offset the expense? 8 MR. MEEK: I think Antonio could answer that, 9 but I'm -- I have a question along that same line. Doesn't 10 the act or something say something about free library? What 11 is that? 12 MR. MARTINEZ: Texas Administrative Code, 13 Title 13, Chapter 1, would prohibit us from charging some 14 fees. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Some fees or all fees? 16 MR. MARTINEZ: We're currently charging all 17 the fees we can charge, except for parking lot. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: When is the last time 19 we reviewed those fees, and with a view toward adjusting 20 them? 21 MR. MARTINEZ: They're reviewed annually, but 22 there have only been minor increases. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want to go back to -- 24 so county libraries can't charge a card fee? A user fee? 25 MR. MARTINEZ: Not a card fee and not a user 10-4-05 jcc 32 1 fee, no. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How does Comal County 3 get away with it? 4 MR. MARTINEZ: I have no idea. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, they do. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean -- I said a 7 library -- I mean, I don't know if it's Houston Public or 8 Harris County. I think it's Houston. I know they charge 9 fees. 10 MR. WAMPLER: Can a municipal library charge 11 fees, as opposed to a county library? 12 MR. MARTINEZ: It depends on the 13 establishment. If you're established as a free municipal 14 library or a free county library or a free joint 15 city/county, you cannot charge fees, not for library cards. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Comal County has a 17 very similar situation, Councilman. 18 MR. MARTINEZ: We charge for replacement 19 cards. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The library is in New 21 Braunfels, and they charge -- they charge a fee for any user 22 who's outside the city of New Braunfels. It's essentially 23 the same situation. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, I'd like to look 25 at that, 'cause fees -- I just am a believer in user-pay as 10-4-05 jcc 33 1 much as possible. Maybe not the whole cost, but at least 2 contribute more than anyone who's been a nonuser. The fees 3 on that -- I guess the library card, does that extend to 4 things like computers and other things, or can we charge for 5 computer usage? 6 MR. MARTINEZ: All services must be provided 7 free, except for reserving books, in-depth research, costs 8 for accessing electronic resources that we incur to provide 9 information. But anything that is obtainable at the library 10 must be free of charge. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You said -- and I'm not 12 trying to, I guess, split hairs on this, but you said costs 13 that we incur to provide -- to get the information, or 14 research. 15 MR. MARTINEZ: Well, I -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, like, a DSL line, can 17 we charge -- I mean, which those computers -- you know, the 18 technology portion of your budget is about 23 percent of 19 your budget, something like that. It's a bunch of money. 20 And I don't -- I think it's a good thing to make available, 21 but I -- if I hear a complaint on any topic over there, it's 22 coming out of those computers. It's -- and not the 23 pornography stuff and all that, just misuse of the 24 computers. They think -- they, the people that use the 25 library, and a lot more than I certainly do, they say that 10-4-05 jcc 34 1 they see computers being used for playing games and things 2 of that nature, as opposed to research, and several big 3 supporters of the library have complained about that to me. 4 So, you know, I don't see computers as an essential -- for 5 research, they're good, and they need to be there and 6 they're very helpful. But from the standpoint of a library, 7 I don't know how many computers need to be there. And there 8 might be -- it's an area that I would be interested in 9 really looking at real closely. 10 MR. MEEK: I would like to hear from Antonio. 11 Isn't the -- the wave of the future to have more and more 12 computers in libraries as time -- isn't that projected? 13 MR. MARTINEZ: Well, the study being 14 conducted by the Friends is already saying we don't have 15 enough computers. You know, personally, I think it's a 16 problem with lack of space to put any more computers. We 17 really don't have anywhere to place any more computers. 18 MR. MEEK: But do you see that as a useful 19 component? 20 MR. MARTINEZ: Very -- very useful, and 21 definitely heavily used. And, you know, we couldn't do 22 without it. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Last summer, the 24 University of Texas main undergraduate library moved all its 25 books out to make way for computers. This fall, a new high 10-4-05 jcc 35 1 school in Phoenix, Arizona opened with no books and nothing 2 but laptop computers. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it may be the 4 wave of the future, but the county has certainly found 5 technology is very, very expensive. We just spent a little 6 over a million dollars on new software to run the county 7 system. 8 MR. COLEMAN: And it changes rapidly. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's got a five- to 10 six-year life, hopefully long enough, but the reality is 11 that's about how much we got. So, I think that, you know, 12 if we're going down a computer road with the library, we're 13 talking about a bunch of money, and I -- the County doesn't 14 have that kind of money. You know, and I guess it gets me 15 to one of the things as to -- and, you know, trying to 16 figure out exactly under the organization of this library, 17 what we're required to do, what we can and can't do, which I 18 don't know. And anything to -- you know, if we have to be 19 free on library cards or some things, you know, that's the 20 way it is. But if we can charge for certain things like 21 computer usage, boy, I think we should. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I think that 23 while the -- the fee schedule's not the answer to the 24 current financial dilemma, it certainly needs to be looked 25 at. That's probably the only place in the city of Kerrville 10-4-05 jcc 36 1 where you can rent a meeting room for a day for $16. Now, 2 is that realistic in today's marketplace? Just by way of 3 example. So, I think all these things need to be looked at 4 and -- and adjusted accordingly. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And then the other area 6 is, is there areas that we can cut back on service hours and 7 things of that nature? From the -- our administrative 8 assistant did a brief phone survey to a number of libraries 9 in the area. Very few stay open all day Sunday. It's not a 10 real common occurrence. Our public may like it being open 11 Sunday, but it's not the norm. Most libraries, from her 12 calling, or research, are not open all day Sunday. So, I 13 think that, you know, those are things that I really would 14 like to get recommend -- or, you know, figure out what the 15 target of dollars either raised through fees, or cut back 16 through service and see what that would mean. What would -- 17 to raise -- to lower the expenditures, you know, $75,000 at 18 the library for both City and County, total budget -- or 19 total expenditures, what would that require? What would 20 they have to do on the service side? 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, some 22 of these several ideas that I'm hearing about opportunities 23 to make improvements and reduce costs might be something 24 that the new Library Advisory Board could help us with. As 25 we've -- as it's constituted in our contract, the advisory 10-4-05 jcc 37 1 board is going to have more responsibility and more 2 authority for providing input on library operations. And, 3 properly staffed, it might be the -- might be a vehicle for 4 pursuing some of these ideas. 5 MR. MEEK: Commissioner Nicholson, can you 6 illuminate me on what the changes are, set up with a 7 different board than what we have now? I'm not up to speed 8 on that. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Well, I think 10 it's -- we've said in the contract that it says the Library 11 Advisory Board shall be created to provide oversight of 12 library operations. Oversight's a little stronger than what 13 I have seen that was done in the past. 14 MR. MEEK: And is there any particular reason 15 that the number went from nine to seven, I believe? 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't think 17 there's any particular reason. Just a negotiating number. 18 MR. MEEK: Here is a question that I was 19 asked. Do I assume the existing Library Board serves until 20 replaced? Is there any discussion on that? That's the 21 normal situation. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I would think so, yes. 23 MR. MEEK: Because some believe they were 24 summarily dismissed. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I had one tell me 10-4-05 jcc 38 1 that today. 2 MR. MEEK: So I -- 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We're scheduled to 4 deliberate about our two nom -- appointments next Tuesday, 5 so by that time we'll have a name or two, and the Friends of 6 the Library will name one. 7 MR. MEEK: So, it's serve until replaced? Is 8 that what everybody -- 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think so. 10 MR. MEEK: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: The other thing that 12 gives evidence that this new Library Advisory Board will 13 have more responsibilities or authority than they've had in 14 the past is that we specifically assign them the 15 responsibility of creating a budget for the library, and in 16 a certain time frame. So, this time next year, if the board 17 functions properly, the -- the County and the City will get 18 a -- a budget that the board members have had a hand in 19 creating. 20 MR. MEEK: All right. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- 22 MR. BOCK: Mr. Nicholson, the comment on 23 that, I think with all of our joint efforts that we have, I 24 think I would like to see on the library and some of our 25 other projects that we -- that we give each other ongoing 10-4-05 jcc 39 1 P & L's as the year progresses. We can do it on a monthly 2 basis, a quarterly basis, and that way there is no surprise. 3 As we see expenses rise 30 percent in one department, maybe 4 can direct our attention to those at that time, versus doing 5 them at the time that budgets are presented or a time that 6 we have to short-range it to solve the solutions; that we 7 all have it as we go, and see the projected budget of what 8 it should be and where are we at today and that sort of 9 thing. I'd like to see that happen with all of our -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, I know 11 the County can do that very easily, and I -- I believe the 12 City can do that, because the airport is now receiving 13 monthly reports at our meetings, which are basically -- as I 14 understand, it's basically a push of a button. The report 15 can be generated on any entity in the City, and we can do 16 the same. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Essentially, whatever the 18 operating entity furnishes to their own people, they can 19 just furnish it to the other entity. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Sure. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Makes sense. 22 MR. COLEMAN: Our financial staff might 23 disagree with a punch of a button. 24 MR. MEEK: Right over here, we have -- 25 MS. SEKULA: Maybe two. 10-4-05 jcc 40 1 MR. COLEMAN: Two buttons. They do an 2 excellent job. And, Todd, I agree with you. I think it 3 goes back on Jonathan's earlier comments that -- that going 4 to all the various department heads, that's something to be 5 worked out. But with -- you know, within this monthly 6 financial reporting for these boards, I think it precludes a 7 lot of need for that that you guys have felt. You also 8 mentioned technical services being very high. Antonio, I 9 need to get -- gain a better understanding of the technical 10 services, books and records. It's 104,000. 11 MR. MARTINEZ: 114 was the request for 12 '05-'06. 13 MR. COLEMAN: And I know what that is; that's 14 library collections, adding new items and replacing worn 15 items in multiple formats. 16 MR. MARTINEZ: Books. 17 MR. COLEMAN: Give me more detail on that. 18 Is that something that can be juggled from year to year to 19 make up for shortfalls? 20 MR. MARTINEZ: Well, that's what we lend to 21 the public. That's all the materials the library collects 22 to lend; books, CD's, DVD's, everything in the library, 23 exclusive of what the Friends of the Library fund. 24 MR. COLEMAN: It's additions for that -- for 25 this particular budget year? 10-4-05 jcc 41 1 MR. MARTINEZ: That particular budget, 2 that's -- the biggest portion in the technical services is 3 Line Item 512, and that's for purchase of primarily books, 4 but also a lot of other formats. 5 MR. COLEMAN: What would the impact be to the 6 library if that were reduced on a continuing basis? 7 MR. MARTINEZ: We've been operating lowering 8 that number for many years, you know. We would just have to 9 buy less and lend less materials, have less new materials to 10 lend to the public. 11 MR. COLEMAN: Would it have a -- how 12 detrimental of an impact would that have for the -- 13 MR. MARTINEZ: Well -- 14 MR. COLEMAN: -- public? 15 MR. MARTINEZ: -- I think it's in the 16 perception of a user. You know, when we've had low years, 17 we've had numerous complaints about it. We've had a very 18 unhappy public over that issue, and not ever -- not 19 maintaining new materials. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Antonio, where do 21 computers come in? 22 MR. MARTINEZ: Computers, probably 98 percent 23 of them have been purchased with grants, not with city or 24 county funds. 25 MR. COLEMAN: You mean in the budget? Where 10-4-05 jcc 42 1 they appear in the budget? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. It's not under -- 3 when I read the -- reread through the descriptions, I just 4 don't see -- 5 MR. MARTINEZ: I don't recall. I think we 6 may have one computer budgeted in there for replacement next 7 year. 8 MR. MEEK: I have a question. Judge 9 mentioned earlier that y'all will be looking as time goes on 10 at possible places to add to your contribution to the 11 library budget. Is there -- do you have any sense of the 12 timing on that? I know Mr. Martinez is probably sitting 13 over there wondering what he needs to plan on -- on 14 budgeting. Well, what areas would have to be cut? Do you 15 have a sense of when you may know what your final amount 16 would be? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I think 18 it's -- I mean, in my mind, that's why I asked the question, 19 is I need information from Antonio as to what's going to 20 happen, you know, at several levels. 21 MR. MEEK: Right. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because it depends. I 23 mean, is it -- you know, we're going to have to cut the 24 money somewhere. Does this mean we're going to, you know, 25 tell Road and Bridge they're not going to get another truck 10-4-05 jcc 43 1 or another piece of equipment that's budgeted right now? Or 2 are we going to go to some department and say, "You're not 3 getting your part-time employee"? I mean, we're not going 4 into reserves, so that means something has to get cut to do 5 this funding. So I need to know, from my standpoint, is it 6 more important to keep the library open all the hours we're 7 currently open, or can we cut back a little bit there and 8 save a dump truck? I mean, it's that kind of -- it's a 9 trade-off like that in my mind, 'cause we don't -- our 10 budget is set and our tax rate is set, and so we're going to 11 have to do an amendment. This money isn't falling out of 12 the sky. We have a budget that every penny is budgeted, and 13 we're pretty slim in some areas. We -- the areas that we 14 have some unknowns are on the indigent defense line item 15 that I mentioned earlier. We really don't know what that's 16 going to cost. We do a best guess talking to the District 17 Clerk and the Auditor and the District Judges' staff as to 18 how many court cases come in under this new indigent defense 19 area that we now have to fund. We put about 150,000, is my 20 recollection, into that. 21 MR. MEEK: Jonathan, what I heard you say, 22 you would rather address the possible cuts in service hours 23 before y'all determine if there's additional money to 24 contribute to the budget? Is that what you said? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I want to know what 10-4-05 jcc 44 1 the -- a -- if we have to cut $50,000 out of the library 2 budget -- or if Antonio does, what does that mean? What is 3 that going to do? I mean, I don't know right now if -- if 4 it's -- if -- you know, if that's going to mean we lose 5 accreditation, well, that's one thing. If it means we're 6 going to close for half a day Sunday, that's a totally 7 different thing. 8 MR. BENHAM: We're already closed half a day, 9 Commissioner, with all due respect. It's open from 1:00 to 10 5:00. That's not all day. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Well, close it all 12 day Sunday. 13 MR. BOCK: I think, Mr. Letz, I -- what I 14 think you're saying is, if you had -- for example, you're 15 going out to purchase a car, you say, "I have $20,000. What 16 can I get for $20,000?" And that's -- I think that's what 17 -- what can we get for this amount of money? 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 19 MR. BOCK: What services can we get? So, 20 then you can come up with a solution of, well, we can -- we 21 can fund this additional revenue here and remove it from 22 there, because I feel that that service is less important to 23 lose out than this service over here. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because, I mean, the 25 reality is that the -- that county taxpayers are both city 10-4-05 jcc 45 1 residents and non-city residents. They're telling me the 2 library is very important, but it's not the most important 3 thing in our budget. They expect that if we're cutting, you 4 know, Road and Bridge and we're cutting juvenile detention 5 and we're cutting the Sheriff, they think it's reasonable 6 for us to cut the library. That's what I'm being told by 7 all the constituents, city and county. And, you know, 8 there's no -- the way -- nothing is sacred. It can't be in 9 our budget. We have to look at it so we have to -- and I've 10 been elected to use my judgment as to where is the best 11 place to spend the tax dollars. A large portion of that, 12 you know, is going into the library. There is -- there are 13 areas that I've identified that we can certainly increase 14 funding. A fair amount from where we are, a fair amount 15 being in the $50,000, $75,000 range, but that has to get us 16 up to the 416 -- I mean, if we're in agreement that we're 17 paying for the books, the County's paying their part of the 18 books, there's going to be some real tough calls. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I want to comment on 20 that, Carl. I want to try to respond to your question, come 21 at it a little bit differently. To me, there are a couple 22 issues -- a couple items in this summary budget that we've 23 been presented that need a little discussion. Commissioner 24 Letz was concerned about the $104,000 listed as capital. I 25 think there's been a pretty decent explanation that, while 10-4-05 jcc 46 1 it may be listed as capital, it really is part and parcel of 2 what makes the library tick, books and manuscripts and 3 things of that nature. I personally don't have a problem 4 with it. But, for example, under maintenance and repairs, 5 or building construction, building and structures, is 6 $5,500. Now, if the building's not ours and so forth and so 7 on, is that a legitimate item to be in that budget, asking 8 us to fund 50 percent of it? So I guess what, really, we 9 need to do is just make certain that the items that we want 10 to fund or are expected to fund are the ones that really 11 should be there, and then we can figure out how much the 12 shortfall is, if anything. And I think I got to go back to 13 the question the Judge asked at the outset, and I don't mean 14 to be demeaning to anybody or prolonging the discussion, but 15 we read in the paper that the sky's going to fall if we 16 don't fund this. Now, I don't want to be a participant to 17 the library losing its accreditation. I'd like to know what 18 that means. You know, is the County the bad guy if we come 19 up $35,000 short? Is it really going to lose its 20 accreditation? I'd like to know that. If there are grants 21 that the -- that are in jeopardy of being acquired for 22 services or whatever, can we have a little explanation of 23 what that means? 24 MR. MEEK: I would love to ask Antonio to 25 give us his best anticipation of the likely scenarios. I 10-4-05 jcc 47 1 believe he's told me in the past that if you -- if your 2 budget is lower than it was the previous year, that they -- 3 I don't know if they put on you a watch list or they're -- I 4 would love a short explanation of what you think is likely. 5 Not -- not worst case scenario, but likely. 6 MR. MARTINEZ: I thought Judge Tinley asked a 7 very important question, his very first question. I was 8 waiting for an opportunity to respond. The State Library 9 administers what is called the Library Systems Act, and 10 we're a member of that; we have participation in that. The 11 way they work, what they call maintenance of effort, is they 12 look at the last three previous fiscal years and average 13 those, and we have to meet that level of funding or lose 14 system membership. 15 MR. MEEK: May I ask you, is that automatic, 16 you lose system membership? 17 MR. MARTINEZ: Yes. 18 MR. MEEK: Or is it potential, you lose -- 19 MR. MARTINEZ: Not for that part of it. On 20 that part of it, if you go below the three-year average, you 21 lose system membership. 22 MR. MEEK: And what does that mean? 23 MR. MARTINEZ: We lose participation in 24 several programs. For instance, the database program that's 25 linked on our web site. We lose grants from the regional 10-4-05 jcc 48 1 level, probably in the amount of actual dollars, maybe about 2 $10,000, but also services valued at anywhere from 100,000 3 to $200,000. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What kind of 5 services? 6 MR. MARTINEZ: One of them would be something 7 called Tutor.com, which would be a homework help thing 8 available on our web site. The consulting services from the 9 regional system to come and help us with computer networks, 10 with automated problems, inter-library loan stipends, 11 stipends, again, for the database service. All those 12 stipends would be lost. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: These are certainties 14 as you know them, just as you and I are sitting here? 15 MR. MARTINEZ: Yes. I've been -- yes, I've 16 been told. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Or these are fears 18 that they might take place? 19 MR. MARTINEZ: I know -- I have requested a 20 letter from the State Library, and that should be 21 forthcoming, that will state their position on that. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My question is, what goes 23 into the averaging? 'Cause our funding from the County 24 jumps around quite a bit, so -- and it has, because that's 25 what the City's requested. 10-4-05 jcc 49 1 MR. MARTINEZ: The three-year average is 2 781,772. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Current three-year average is 4 how much again? 5 MR. MARTINEZ: 781,772. 6 MR. COLEMAN: And how did you calculate that, 7 Antonio? 8 MR. MARTINEZ: State Library calculated that 9 for me. 10 MR. COLEMAN: That appears to be a lot more 11 than '03 and '04, '05-'06. 12 MR. MARTINEZ: Well, they look at what we 13 report in expenditures. And, again, what is local 14 expenditures may be a little different from just the 15 City/County funding. For instance, the Friends' 16 contribution is local funding also. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it must -- I mean, it 18 must throw out items, because that number -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That number is higher 20 than where we are, at least of where the County is. We 21 weren't at that number last year. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, after the reserve 23 issues last year. But what he's saying is you look at 24 expenditures; you don't look at funding. 25 MR. MEEK: Is it -- it seems, Antonio, 10-4-05 jcc 50 1 really, it's very difficult for me to understand how we can 2 go from an exemplary library that is the toast of the state 3 to, if you spend one dollar less than your three-year 4 average, you automatically lose services, though our library 5 could be many, many times better library than a very small 6 one that continued to meet their expenditures. There's -- 7 it is very difficult for me to understand that rationale on 8 the State's part. 9 MR. MARTINEZ: That is right. There is an 10 appeals process, but I have no idea what would, you know, 11 qualify for an exemption to that rule. But that is the 12 rule. 13 MR. MEEK: We -- we need to make some -- our 14 decisions need to be based on the best available 15 information, and -- 16 MR. MARTINEZ: Right. 17 MR. MEEK: -- and we're relying on you to 18 give us, you know, what is the most likely scenario here, 19 not worst case. 20 MR. MARTINEZ: Now, I don't have a final 21 number for '05, but that's going to raise that three-year 22 average. I don't know if our budget people over there have 23 a final number for what we've expended, but I'm estimating 24 if we spend 860,000 in the current year, the just-expired 25 fiscal year, then we're looking at that three-year average 10-4-05 jcc 51 1 to raise to 809,267. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, I'm kind of 3 like you, Carl; I have a little problem with that. We're 4 letting somebody else, in effect, set our budget for us, 5 respectively, the City and the County. And it doesn't give 6 us any opportunity to talk about the operation, how we might 7 effect some efficiencies and so forth and so on. We're 8 letting some arbitrary panel -- we don't even know who it is 9 or what they're doing -- to tell us what level of funding we 10 have to generate. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Also, it penalizes you 12 for going out and doing any kind of, like, software 13 upgrades, which is an expense -- item that can be very 14 expensive. It's going to push your average up, and then all 15 of a sudden you're not going to be able to get, quote, 16 accreditation because your average is too high. Doesn't -- 17 MR. MEEK: You're -- you're looking for a 18 letter to enumerate that for us? 19 MR. MARTINEZ: And, again, that's the reason 20 for the three-year average, to, you know, take into account 21 spikes where you have a one-year project. But, yes, there 22 should be a letter coming from the State Library that 23 officially states this position. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Related to this 25 issue, it was reportedly -- if the City and County pursued 10-4-05 jcc 52 1 its plan of funding the library at only a total of $600,000, 2 that the library stood to lose $150,000 in revenues from 3 other sources, and I don't -- I can't find anywhere in this 4 year's or past budgets where those revenues from other 5 sources are accounted for. 6 MR. MARTINEZ: Well, the database connection 7 alone is valued at $249,000, so I -- I really underestimated 8 the value of what we're getting from system membership. 9 MR. MEEK: You're saying that would be the 10 fee charged -- 11 MR. MARTINEZ: That would be the cost if we 12 bought that on our own. 13 MR. MEEK: -- for everything that you get 14 automatically as a member? 15 MR. MARTINEZ: We pay $1,300 a year for that 16 database connection, and it's valued at $249,000. 17 MR. MEEK: Wow. 18 MR. BENHAM: Judge, if I may suggest it, you 19 might want to involve State Representative Hilderbran in 20 this, because he chairs the House committee on libraries, 21 and he has said very emphatically to me, when I have 22 inquired about what he does up there, that he chairs that 23 committee on libraries and he does a lot to see to it that 24 the libraries get help from the State. And this concern 25 that's being -- I hear being raised, which I think is a 10-4-05 jcc 53 1 valid one, it would seem to me that you'd be perfectly 2 justified in asking State Representative Hilderbran to get 3 involved in this process, not only 'cause he's our State 4 Representative, but because he chairs the very committee in 5 Austin that deals with libraries. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a good point, 7 Mr. Benham. I appreciate you pointing that out. Couple of 8 questions, and it -- this -- this aspect of the 9 participation of membership, as it were, is quite 10 enlightening. I can only make the observation that as you 11 upgrade, it compels you to continue to upgrade. It's a 12 never-ending cycle. The $94,000 that was the County's 13 portion of the -- of the reserve last year, was that counted 14 as part of the County's contribution to the library function 15 last year? 16 MR. MARTINEZ: I'll have to defer to the 17 budget office. 18 MR. BROOKS: Repeat that question one more 19 time? 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. There was -- there was 21 a reserve account of -- of $188,000, it would turn out to 22 be, operations reserve. And, of course, the County's 23 portion would be $94,000. Was that particular -- were those 24 funds shown as a contribution to the library last year? 25 MR. BROOKS: Correct. I think what the -- 10-4-05 jcc 54 1 the County did was, there was a return of equity, which was 2 that money that we had left over, the fund balance. We had 3 a very large fund balance which was doing the City and 4 County no good, so basically last year what we did -- 5 actually -- yeah, last fiscal year, what we did is we 6 divided that equity between the two entities and handed it 7 back to them. What the County did was they -- they ended up 8 netting it for accounting reasons. Instead of handing a 9 check to the County, the County just netted that and paid us 10 the net amount. 11 MR. MEEK: I have a question along those 12 lines. Did that trigger a loss of our membership because we 13 paid less? 14 MR. BROOKS: No, because I think what Antonio 15 is saying is it's based on actual expenditures. Yeah. So, 16 right. 17 MR. MEEK: Let me ask you this. The study by 18 the Friends identified some -- some good, you know, large 19 capital improvement costs, whether it be a new building or 20 redoing. Would that then mean you would have to spend that 21 same amount in future years to keep your membership? It's 22 just in the operations? 23 MR. MARTINEZ: Right. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you this. 25 What part of this budget is operations? If you keep the 10-4-05 jcc 55 1 operations part of the budget at this level and make cuts in 2 the capital parts of the budget, would you be all right as 3 far as membership is concerned? 4 MR. MARTINEZ: The only capital we have 5 currently is books and library materials in this current 6 budget year. 7 MR. MEEK: Oh boy. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me follow up with one to 9 Brian. For this immediate past year, then, was the County's 10 contribution 323,000 plus the 94,000, or 323 less the 11 94,000, but then including the offset of the 94? 12 MR. BROOKS: The County subsidy, it was -- it 13 was exactly 416,113, which was the same as we're asking this 14 year. What the County actually paid was 322,112. That is 15 plus the return of equity, that equals your $416,000. So, 16 essentially, the County did cut, but we netted it. Instead 17 of -- instead of the County contributing 416,000, what they 18 did instead was they contributed the net of 416,000 minus 19 the return of equity. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: See, what the Judge 21 is getting at, I look at the line item justification, 800, 22 General Operations, 405, Other Charges. It says Kerr County 23 reduced monthly payment instead of accepting one-time check 24 for return of equity. I think that would be -- would come 25 as a surprise to the Auditor, that Kerr County did that. 10-4-05 jcc 56 1 MR. BROOKS: That was actually a decision by 2 Kerr County. Now, that was -- we notified Kerr County that 3 this was what happened; you know, we have a return of 4 equity. We decided -- they decided to net it out, as 5 opposed to changing it, getting a check in lieu of. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Help me understand 7 this, Brian. I want to follow up on the Judge's question. 8 The material that we were provided shows in '05, $242,497 9 subsidy from Kerr County; is that correct? 10 MR. BROOKS: I'm sorry, say it again? 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 242,497. 12 MR. BROOKS: Thank you. That is correct. 13 MR. MEEK: Just put that toy away; she's got 14 it. 15 MR. BROOKS: 242,497 is actual revenues 16 through June 30th of '05. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Through June 30. 18 Where would be the year-ending? 19 MR. BROOKS: Year-ending would be 322,112. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 322. And that 322 21 includes the $94,000 credit? 22 MR. BROOKS: That 322 plus the 94 equals the 23 total subsidy asked of the County of 416,113. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So that's the 416 25 you're requesting for '06? 10-4-05 jcc 57 1 MR. BROOKS: It was also the same request in 2 '05. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I think -- I think, Brian, 4 what's -- the difficulty that we've got here is, this might 5 be a surprise to a number of us on the Court. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the -- I mean, 7 maybe -- the Auditor was evidently was aware of it, but we 8 were very surprised that the City -- and we knew we budgeted 9 less than was asked last year, and we never heard a peep. 10 We thought, "That's weird." Didn't say anything. I mean, 11 that's our view. 12 MR. MEEK: Appreciate you pointing it out, 13 Jonathan. (Laughter.) 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But all of a sudden, what 15 the City did, okay, and what happened was, in reality -- and 16 I say, you know, we told you we're going to fund you. 17 That's sort of -- so we're going to take reserves, you know, 18 which the City had the right to do as managers of the 19 library. But we weren't really aware of the way it was 20 handled, but that's neither here nor there at this point. 21 There was a reserve and it wasn't used, and it went into 22 funding the library. But -- and that's why I think we were 23 all -- 24 MR. MEEK: If you feel bad about it, you'd 25 make up the difference. (Laughter.) 10-4-05 jcc 58 1 (Discussion off the record.) 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I guess -- I mean, is 3 Antonio going to give us any ideas on -- 4 MR. MARTINEZ: I'd like to -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- potential service 6 reductions, or is it just a matter of we can fund what we're 7 going to fund and we'll go our own way? Which would be 8 potentially forced reductions, which is what I'm trying to 9 get -- I'm trying to get away from doing forced reductions. 10 I'm trying to get feedback to say, "This is what's going to 11 happen if we fund at this level or this level." 12 MR. MEEK: What you're asking is to identify 13 some areas that he would recommend reductions in force? 14 MR. BOCK: Priority levels. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Priority. Because, I 16 mean, I think our intent -- or my intent is clearly to 17 increase our funding, but I'm not sure we have the -- I'm 18 not sure it makes sense in my mind to fund it 100 percent 19 and cut things -- other things out of our budget somewhere. 20 MR. MEEK: Jonathan, could I suggest that you 21 give him a target number here? It's very difficult to do 22 what you just asked when he doesn't know what level of 23 reduction in expense you're talking about. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: From the look that I've 25 done at the budget and just going through it and trying to 10-4-05 jcc 59 1 -- I'd say I see somewhere, with -- I don't want to say -- 2 not difficulty, but I could probably find $50,000 to 3 $75,000, so we're looking at $50,000 to $75,000 in 4 reductions. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think 50 is on the 6 low side, but we can probably get in that range. But that 7 gets us back to -- that gets us back to one of the items 8 particularly that's in there. If it weren't in there, it 9 also would reduce the County's share, and that has -- that 10 goes to this issue of building structures and so forth and 11 so on. It's not a big item, but it helps us get where we 12 need to get. 13 MR. MEEK: I hear you. Do you all -- do you 14 want to -- I mean, is this something, as a group, you're 15 looking for your group, our group, whatever, want to -- you 16 want to make that request of us now to look at that level of 17 reduction? Is that -- is that what I'm hearing informally? 18 Or -- 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My -- it goes back -- I 20 think you brought it up earlier as to Antonio needs to know 21 where he's going. I want to get this resolved. You know, I 22 want to know what we're going to fund. 23 MR. COLEMAN: We do too. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that we -- I 25 don't know if it's on our Monday -- or on our Tuesday's 10-4-05 jcc 60 1 agenda or not. I don't know. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It could come in as a 3 budget amendment. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah, we could deal with 5 it Tuesday, or two weeks from Tuesday. But I'd certainly 6 have every intent of getting this -- of letting y'all know 7 one way or the other the total additional amount that we 8 want to fund or are able to fund at the library as soon as 9 we can. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I believe we can come 11 in for budget amendments on Tuesday, budget amendments to 12 our budget, which will increase the funding. 13 MR. MEEK: Are you asking for a description 14 or a listing of the reductions by your Tuesday meeting? Is 15 that what you're asking for? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, yeah, I think 17 we'd kind of like to know, if we're able to come up with, on 18 the top side, $375,000, or 350 -- whatever, 350, 375, let's 19 be honest and tell us, what does it really mean in the 20 operation? 21 MR. BOCK: I'm -- excuse me. I might say, 22 too, if the County could come up with such a number that's 23 -- that's reasonable that the County could do, I would like 24 to look to my colleagues -- the City colleagues here and say 25 then I would like to see on our agenda looking at whether we 10-4-05 jcc 61 1 can go back to our budget and see what shortfall is actually 2 there between what the County can do, and that we may find 3 that some of these priority cuts that we may want to fund 4 additionally to see if it's -- if that's possible. 5 MR. COLEMAN: And that's why I was going back 6 to this barter thing relative to -- 7 MR. BOCK: Exactly. There may be something 8 somewhere that we can find to do this as a partnership, as 9 one helping the other, that -- that we may not have to lose 10 all these. And I think -- but I think it's going to come 11 from the County to give Antonio a pretty hard number, which 12 I know in our last meeting we were trying to get Antonio a 13 hard number so we -- so we knew, so we could start working 14 on a -- on a budget with those proposed changes. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll tell you where 16 we were the other day, last Monday when we talked about 17 it -- where I thought we were, or could be. I believe that 18 the County's obligation was somewhere in the area of 19 $398,000 -- 398,613. And some budget amendments that had 20 been identified could have gotten us up to around 365, which 21 would have left a $33,000 shortfall. So -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean, I think 23 that, moving this along, why don't -- on Tuesday, we'll go 24 through our budget, figure out where we can find as much as 25 we can find, and not saying this is an absolute drop-dead 10-4-05 jcc 62 1 final number. And then it will be a difference there, and 2 then Antonio can look at that and say this is what that 3 means. And then we can go back, and y'all can go back, to 4 our budgets and say, you know, do we want that reduction or 5 do we want to cut somewhere else? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I like Mr. Bock's 7 plan. And that should pretty much wrap this meeting up, 8 shouldn't it? 9 MR. MEEK: I would say it would be helpful if 10 the -- if the Court would talk with the County Attorney as 11 far as the legality of the barter situation. I know you 12 can't use County equipment to improve someone's private 13 road, but I believe you -- 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Interlocal agreement, 15 we can. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's one -- 17 MR. MEEK: You can on interlocal -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- easy location, which 19 is the airport. The City does theirs -- I mean, I don't 20 want -- I'm not going to touch the mowing contract again, 21 believe me. But there's other areas out there on 22 maintenance and -- and other mowing that's done by the City, 23 herbicide along the fences and all that. We do those same 24 functions for our county roads, and that's an area that we 25 can just commit to do a certain amount. 10-4-05 jcc 63 1 MR. MEEK: Hypothetically, if you run over a 2 deer at the airport, do we have to pick it up? (Laughter.) 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think so. I think the 4 answer is yes. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm going to bid on 6 the mowing contract, and I'll pick the deer up too. 7 (Laughter.) 8 MR. MEEK: All right. 9 MR. BENHAM: Your Honor, there were several 10 references made along the way to the Friends' study of 11 possible expansion of the library. If I could have about 12 another minute, I'd like to say our discussions, which are 13 by no means complete, but what we've discussed, and what we 14 discussed when we decided whether we want to spend all that 15 money on the study, did not envision coming to the County, 16 and quite possibly not to the City either, for money for 17 capital investment. Previously, when we were able to get 18 money for expansion of the library, improvement of the 19 library, such as the wheelchair ramp in front and some other 20 improvements that were made, we and some other people -- I 21 don't want to sound like Friends are the only ones who did 22 it. Commissioner Williams certainly had a hand in it. We 23 got most of that money from the Economic Improvement 24 Corporation. 25 Now, the County did, as you said, put up some 10-4-05 jcc 64 1 of it. We got most of that money from the Economic 2 Improvement Corporation, and we've since gotten most of the 3 money that -- for the purchase of property that I referred 4 to earlier from private foundations; Peterson, the Cailloux, 5 and the Butt Foundations, primarily. There were some 6 smaller donations. So, I don't want to scare you with talk 7 of expanding the library if it carries the implication that 8 we'd be coming back to you gentlemen for the money to do 9 that. We would make every effort to get that money from the 10 Economic Improvement Corporation and from private sources. 11 Now, if the City and County wanted to give us some money as 12 well, I'm sure we wouldn't turn it down, but you wouldn't be 13 the primary objects of the fundraising that the Friends, at 14 least, would be involved in for any expansion. 15 One of the things we've urged for years, and 16 the money wasn't there to do it, is that that balcony, which 17 is wasted space now, be enclosed to provide more room for 18 reference and reading. A lot of the reference and reading 19 space has been turned over to computers. Enclosing that 20 balcony would solve two problems there, and we'd like to see 21 the money spent -- some money spent on that. But, again, we 22 would go to the E.I.C. and private foundations for that 23 money, as much as we could get. We wouldn't start with the 24 County Commission and the City Commission. And I just 25 wanted to say -- the Council, excuse me. I just wanted to 10-4-05 jcc 65 1 be sure that there isn't a misunderstanding about the 2 Friends' role and the Friends' vision on that particular 3 project, and I appreciate your time. 4 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Joe. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. It does 6 point to the need for us to get on the same page, because in 7 the future, if the library facility is expanded, it seems 8 obvious to me that the purpose is to expand services, and if 9 expanding services is going to expand utilization and expand 10 utilization, you're expanding personnel costs and all those 11 things that are corollary to that, so we need to get on the 12 page and know where we're going. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One other question. I 14 meant to bring it up earlier, and this is kind of -- well, I 15 think we're all aware that the history center and genealogy 16 -- whatever that word is, that center. 17 MR. BENHAM: Genealogy. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Genealogy Center is a 100 19 percent city function, and they own the building and they do 20 all that. When I read through the backup, there's two 21 references under this contract to personnel, I guess, that 22 are coming under this budget, which I don't think is 23 appropriate. Under the Administration heading, the first 24 sentence talks about administering and supervising history 25 center, path source, Genealogy Society. Then under Patron 10-4-05 jcc 66 1 Services, there's talk about -- under the fourth bullet, 2 about, you know, the -- collection was moved over to the new 3 library -- to the new history center, and that it's staffed 4 entirely by volunteers. Both of those lead me to believe 5 there has to be supervision somewhere, and I presume that's 6 Antonio or the City Manager. If that's the case, his salary 7 needs to be broken out accordingly. That's just the way 8 it's done for other things, other functions under the 9 airport contract. 10 MR. DAVIS: Do you want us to add 11 administrative fees, then, to that library fund? Which are 12 not in there. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. I just 14 think that we've been told all along that we're not to 15 participate in any way with that building. And, you know, 16 we've gone round and round on this issue. That's just a 17 matter of -- I think we need to be real clear on that point, 18 that we're either participating or not participating. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Baldwin said he 20 had a grasp of everything that occurred today and what 21 needed to be done -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Kidneys. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: -- on a going-forward basis 24 from here. So, that being the case, I think we're probably 25 through for today. 10-4-05 jcc 67 1 MR. WAMPLER: Before we get out, I want to be 2 clear. We're -- then we're waiting for you all to give us a 3 number so that we can provide Antonio the hard number, so 4 that he can tell us what impact that's going to have on 5 library operations? Is that where we're at? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. WAMPLER: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's the way I 9 understand it, Councilman. 10 MR. BOCK: Judge, in closing, I'd like to 11 announce to the Commissioners and Judge that Mr. Hoffman 12 will be -- our new City Manager will be reporting to work on 13 the 17th -- is that correct? -- on the 17th of this month. 14 So, we're very excited about that, and I'm real excited to 15 have him coming aboard, and I think you're really going to 16 enjoy working with him. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm glad to hear 18 that. I want to express my appreciation to all members of 19 City Council for being here today. 20 MR. MEEK: I want to express my appreciation 21 to Don for filling in as our Interim City Manager also. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Being nothing further, we will 23 stand adjourned from our end of it. 24 MR. MEEK: City Council will adjourn also at 25 3 o'clock. 10-4-05 jcc 68 1 (Joint County/City workshop was adjourned at 3:02 p.m.) 2 - - - - - - - - - - 3 4 5 6 STATE OF TEXAS | 7 COUNTY OF KERR | 8 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 9 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 10 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 11 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 12 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 7th day of October, 13 2005. 14 15 16 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 17 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 18 Certified Shorthand Reporter 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10-4-05 jcc