1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Special Session 10 Monday, April 3, 2006 11 9:30 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X April 3, 2006 2 PAGE 1.1 Discuss, consider and take appropriate action on 3 easement variances 3 4 1.2 Consider, discuss and take appropriate action on issues relating to the operation of Kerr County 5 Juvenile Detention Facility 12 6 --- Adjourned 57 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, April 3, 2006, at 9:30 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call to order this special 7 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court scheduled for 8 this date and time, Monday, April the 3rd, 2006, at 9:30 a.m. 9 Clock on the wall reads a little after 8:30, but, of course, I 10 wasn't here 2 o'clock Sunday morning to change that. I 11 thought Buster was going to handle that. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No comment. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. First item on the agenda is to 14 discuss, consider, and take appropriate action on easement 15 variances. Commissioner Baldwin? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you very much. Judge, 17 this is -- this is what I see as a growing problem. I 18 don't -- I'm not sure what's causing it. We have seen it a 19 couple of times in our -- in my precinct, and now it's, I 20 understand, growing out into -- or oozing out into Precinct 4, 21 and it appears that it's going out, so I just kind of wanted 22 to take a look at this problem and bring it before you all. 23 And I'd really -- Miguel's here to make a presentation. I 24 really would like to come up with some kind of a policy at 25 some point on how to handle this thing, because he sees it as 4-3-06 4 1 a problem, and I do as well. So, Miguel, if you'd come up 2 and -- 3 MR. ARREOLA: Sure. Good morning. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- say what you have to say. 5 MR. ARREOLA: What we have here is just a typical 6 older subdivision, small lot. And we're facing lately -- it's 7 coming more and more, sometimes because of older septic 8 systems failing in an established subdivision, and some of 9 them because of new construction where the lots are too small, 10 and most of -- most of the time the house is already in place. 11 What we have here is an easement all around the property that 12 is a dedicated easement by the plat. Normally goes from 7 to 13 10 feet, depending on which subdivision. On top of that, we 14 have a 5-feet setback from the state, so that takes a pretty 15 good chunk of property that, when they trying to do a new 16 septic or repair the existing one, is creating problems. So, 17 what we would like to know is, how can we handle this easement 18 problem? Most of the easements at least on one side; they're 19 not used and not utilized by any utility company any more. 20 Normally, the utilities are already set on one side, so if we 21 can grant a variance to those easements that are not utilized, 22 that's going to give us extra land to work on the septic. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Miguel, lay that flashlight 24 thing down and walk over there and put -- put your finger on 25 the utility easement. 4-3-06 5 1 MR. ARREOLA: The utility easement is this. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: There? 3 MR. ARREOLA: Out around. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then where is the state 5 5-foot setback? 6 MR. ARREOLA: That line right here. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The dotted line. 8 MR. ARREOLA: Next to it. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is the state setback 15 feet, or 10 is it 5 foot? 11 MR. ARREOLA: Five. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I know, but is it 5 foot in 13 addition to the -- 14 MR. ARREOLA: To the existing easement, whatever 15 that is, and the easement varies. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, if you didn't -- I'm just 17 trying to understand. So, if we -- if the County -- if there 18 wasn't a subdivision plat easement on this side, there'd still 19 be a 5-foot easement? 20 MR. ARREOLA: Correct. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That 5 foot, we can't get rid 22 of? 23 MR. ARREOLA: That's right. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you depicting a new or 25 an older house? Which is the front and which is the back? 4-3-06 6 1 MR. ARREOLA: This is the front, but it does vary a 2 lot. Sometimes the lot -- the back of the lot has a bigger 3 easement. Sometimes they got a 20-foot easement in the back, 4 so it varies by subdivision. Normally, we have a right-of-way 5 in the front which takes a big chunk of the property, and not 6 a big easement in the back, but it changes. It varies. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you depicting a quarter 8 of an acre, or what are you showing there? 9 MR. ARREOLA: It's not to scale. And it is -- yeah, 10 quarter of an acre to half an acre. Sometimes we have 11 problems in half an acre, depending on the soil and what's 12 there, the slope of the property. So, it's all kinds of 13 things that get into play. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What's the purpose of the 15 wraparound easement? 16 MR. ARREOLA: That, I don't know. It is just set in 17 the -- in the plat that way, and we have no authority over it. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I suspect -- and I don't know 19 the answer, but I suspect the reason is that when the plat 20 comes to us, no one really knows how the easement -- how 21 utilities are going to get to that lot. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's correct. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So you have to cover all bases 24 and say here -- I mean, the utility companies, I mean, they 25 go -- you know, they don't know until they start laying things 4-3-06 7 1 out on how things get built, where they're going to actually 2 put things. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Nor do we know the position 4 of the dwelling. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, now that -- if it's an 6 older subdivision, we've got all -- or somebody's got all 7 those answers and it's no longer needed, can it be undone? 8 I'm sure it can be undone. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's got to be done on a 10 lot-by-lot basis almost, because it depends on how they -- I 11 mean, it's possible that cable came in one side and phone came 12 in on the other side. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 14 MR. ARREOLA: What we've been doing lately is trying 15 to determine where the -- those utilities are and which sides 16 are not used. And then sometimes utility companies will grant 17 you a -- a variance, a release of easement to -- to be there. 18 The question we have is, is that okay to do without coming to 19 Commissioners Court? Can we take it like that and record it? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I didn't hear the rest of 21 the story there. The issue is that you don't have enough room 22 to build a septic system? 23 MR. ARREOLA: Correct, that's the big issue. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And the question is, how do 25 you get some relief from the right-of-ways to do that? 4-3-06 8 1 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, I think what he's 3 saying -- he's not talking about encroaching into the 4 utility -- 10-foot utility easement. He's talking about 5 encroaching into that 5-foot setback the state requires. 6 MR. ARREOLA: No, we would like to be in the utility 7 easement, and leave the setback in place. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In this case, particularly. 9 MR. ARREOLA: Uh-huh. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think -- I think the 11 problem is -- or one of the major problems is -- is that 12 they're building a house, then they are saying, "Where is our 13 septic tank going to go?" And then the County is put on the 14 line to -- to scramble around, try to figure it out, and 15 that's not the right way to do it. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You said it's creeping into 17 Precinct 4. Are we talking about Greenwood Forest? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know. 19 MR. ARREOLA: There's some in Greenwood Forest, and 20 whatever small lots come into play. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, it seems -- I mean, a 22 simple fix to me would be to pass a general order allowing 23 Miguel to grant a variance from his standpoint in a utility 24 easement that's not being used, that's a platted -- by the 25 plat, any kind of plat restriction. 4-3-06 9 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We did -- we did one in 2 Kerrville South, and I required them to get permission from 3 the utilities -- written permission from the utilities before 4 we went in there, and then we allowed it to happen. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think that -- I think that 7 we need to have some kind of written permission. 8 MR. ARREOLA: If we can get approval from the 9 utility companies to be there, to release that easement, can 10 we just grant a variance in our office, or do we need to bring 11 it to your attention every time? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do it in your office, if that's 13 all we're doing is a utility easement. I mean, that's -- it's 14 -- the reason it's on the plat is because we don't know where 15 the utilities are going. Once they're there, I think it's up 16 to your office to grant that variance. I don't think it's -- 17 I think it's a waste of the Court's time to have to come in 18 here all the time for that. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're talking about a 20 variance only for a drainfield, not for a tank? 21 MR. ARREOLA: Yes, sir. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think it would be -- I look at 24 it, it doesn't make any difference. I mean, I can't imagine a 25 situation where a tank would get there, but I guess it's 4-3-06 10 1 possible, but I don't know what difference it would make. I 2 mean, a septic -- it's for OSSF. 3 MR. ARREOLA: A septic is allowed. The tank is a 4 lot more invasive, and it is more difficult to have there, but 5 the drainfield is what we're dealing with, is our main 6 problem. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's fine with what they're 8 saying. I still want you to run it by me in my precinct. 9 MR. ARREOLA: Every time? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Every time. 11 MR. ARREOLA: Sounds good. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's good advice, 13 no matter what precinct. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What's going to be the 15 criteria for granting -- 16 MR. ARREOLA: That was my next point. We have a 17 question about the homeowner association. Some subdivision 18 does have an active homeowner association. They would like to 19 be involved. Sometimes they are the ones sending us the 20 approval. Without the utility company's release, is that 21 acceptable? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. 23 MR. ARREOLA: Okay. Then utility company's release, 24 and have it recorded, of course, in the -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What he's saying is the 4-3-06 11 1 homeowners' association make the decision for a government 2 decision. We can't do that. Okay? 3 MR. ARREOLA: Okay, and that's clear. Have any 4 other questions on that? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't. Do we want to pass 6 a -- 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm just inquiring if you got any 8 more questions, concerns, comments. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. I personally -- I think 10 it's clear. I don't know that we need a court order. Or do 11 we? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think you do. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Probably be helpful. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. All right. I move 15 that, on this particular issue, that the Environmental Health 16 Department has the authority to approve or disapprove the 17 encroachment into the utility easement, and request that they 18 all appear before each Commissioner before it's totally 19 approved. 20 MR. ARREOLA: I got you. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Question or issue here? 22 MR. EMERSON: Just a recommendation. So long as the 23 homeowners' association and the utilities issue written 24 releases. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Yeah. 4-3-06 12 1 JUDGE TINLEY: That's included as part of it? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's included. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 5 indicated. Any question or discussion on the motion? All in 6 favor of that motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Thank you 12 very much. 13 JUDGE BROWN: Your Honor, may I speak? Somebody's 14 got my parking place out here; got a white dog in the back. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I got it, Judge, 'cause someone 16 took all the Commissioners' parking places. 17 JUDGE BROWN: Okay, that's fine. I just didn't know 18 what was going on. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There wasn't any spot, so I 20 grabbed the only one I could see. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Y'all take it out in the 22 hall. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to the next item. Item 2, 25 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on issues 4-3-06 13 1 relating to the operation of the Kerr County Juvenile 2 Detention Facility. Commissioner Williams? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Judge. I placed 4 this on the agenda because I was in receipt, as you were, and 5 other Commissioners, of a letter from Ms. Harris indicating 6 that she was resigning her appointment as the Facility 7 Administrator of the Kerr County Juvenile Facility effective 8 April 14th of this year. This being about the third or fourth 9 day, whatever -- third day, leaves us not too much time to 10 decide exactly what the future of the Detention Center is all 11 about. In my backup statement, I tried to identify a few 12 things that the Court probably should think about, and I'm 13 certain every Commissioner has probably added a few things 14 other than that, but I think we need to be talking about, 15 should Kerr County continue to operate a juvenile facility 16 knowing the cost to do so and the problems associated 17 therewith? And if so, what type of facility do we want to 18 operate? For pre-adjudicated youth only, or for pre- and 19 post-adjudicated youth? Males only, or males and females? 20 Continue to operate in the older facility, or move a 21 scaled-down operation into the new facility -- newer facility? 22 Hire another administrator, promote from within, or transfer 23 administrative functions to the Juvenile Probation Department? 24 Continue operation under County administration, or find an 25 outside operator? Sell the facilities or convert to other 4-3-06 14 1 county uses? And after all of those I've listed, I'm sure 2 others have equally come up with other questions as well. 3 And, by the same token, I had a long discussion with 4 Mr. Stanton with respect to the Probation Department operating 5 the Juvenile Facility, doing so in the newer annex building, 6 and doing so as a pre-adjudicated facility only. I've asked 7 him to take a look at the budget as it exists today, midway 8 through the budget year, and determine whether or not it's a 9 feasible approach, and if so, what the cost would be. And he 10 has done that, and I believe each of you have a copy of his 11 preparation for his budget amendments which would allow that 12 to take place. So, having set the stage, Judge, let's talk 13 and see where this takes us. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have any 15 questions concerning the figures on the document circulated by 16 Commissioner Williams as prepared by Mr. Stanton? 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I do. What does it mean? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kevin -- let's get Kevin up 19 here and see if he can help shed a little light on what the 20 document that you have prepared at my request actually means. 21 MR. STANTON: Basically, what I did was try to 22 determine, if we scaled down the facility and went with a 23 pre-adjudicated facility only, what it would cost. Based on 24 the current budget, what it would cost to continue throughout 25 the remainder of this budget year, this budget cycle. 4-3-06 15 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We would be staffed for 2 pre-adjudicated juveniles only, up to a maximum of how many? 3 MR. STANTON: 16. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 16. We'd be using one or 5 two of the dorms in the new facility? 6 MR. STANTON: Well, we'd be staffing -- we could use 7 two of the dorms. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Could be using up to two? 9 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the staffing requirement 11 would take us from a minimum of one kid to a maximum of 16; is 12 that correct? 13 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: T.J.P.C. regulations. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What I'm looking at, the 16 top of it says 12-bed. 17 MR. STANTON: Yeah. Basically, what we were trying 18 to do is, originally, we were looking at using the old 19 facility and staffing one wing. But with the same staffing 20 ratios it would cost to staff the old building, we could staff 21 the new building, and that would expand the ratio of kids up 22 to 16 kids. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. Then if I drop all 24 the way down to the bottom, it says $90,000. 25 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 4-3-06 16 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Does that mean that for 2 this fiscal year, the juvenile facility operation would take 3 in $90,000 more than it spends? 4 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But that does not -- if you go 6 up to three, four lines above that, which is titled "Revenue," 7 isn't that revenue from Kerr County? 8 MR. STANTON: Not all of it, no, sir. Majority of 9 it is. What I did was took the billings that we've paid for 10 the past six months through the Kerr County Juvenile Facility 11 for pre-adjudicated only, and expanded those out for the 12 remainder of the six months that are left in the budget. And 13 if everything stays the same as it has been the first six 14 months, that's the estimated revenue for all the counties that 15 we contract for, pre-adjudicated only. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's not real -- a real 18 profit. It's -- I mean, it's moving money from your budget to 19 the Juvenile Facility budget, part of it is. 20 MR. STANTON: Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. It's the 21 same thing we're doing now, though. We're moving money from 22 my budget to -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We accept pre-adjudicated 24 from other counties? 25 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 4-3-06 17 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And this would anticipate 2 that as well? 3 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: From bordering counties? 5 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the revenue aspect also 8 includes, it appears, over $300,000 worth of existing cash 9 balances or receivables. 10 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: So you're carrying that forward and 14 then adding the revenues -- 15 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: -- to be generated, estimated during 17 the next six months, and then subtracting from that your 18 estimated costs for the next six months to come up with the 19 $90,000 positive? 20 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I want to -- I've got a 23 follow-up question on Commissioner Letz' question. Some of 24 that $164,000 is our money. 25 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 4-3-06 18 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, it's not new money. If 2 we did not have a facility, we'd still be spending that money 3 placing them somewhere else? 4 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. So far -- so far this first 5 six months of this budget cycle, Kerr County Juvenile 6 Probation Department has spent approximately $122,000 at the 7 Kerr County Juvenile Detention Facility to house 8 pre-adjudicated youth. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So far this year? 10 MR. STANTON: So far this year. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Kevin, in the -- and this is 12 using the new facility? I was under the impression that the 13 cafeteria and some of the other facilities -- some of the, I 14 guess, support services are all in the old facility. 15 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, how -- are we going to have 17 to operate both facilities in part? Or -- 18 MR. STANTON: I've been talking to Mr. Holekamp 19 about that issue. Initially, we would probably have to use 20 the laundry services, if we didn't contract or get the 21 Sheriff's Department to do the laundry for us. The food 22 preparation and that kind of thing, there's a couple different 23 options. At that point, we could either go through the 24 Sheriff's Department, like we had talked about six months ago, 25 or we could purchase an oven and some type of freezer and 4-3-06 19 1 prepare the meals like that. And Mr. Holekamp has told me 2 that it wouldn't be a problem to put the -- the equipment in 3 the building, that -- that end of the new building. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You have a full-service 5 kitchen in the old building, but you don't have in the new 6 building; is that what I'm understanding? 7 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 8 MS. HARRIS: It's not plumbed -- the annex building 9 it's not plumbed for a gas-operating stove. 10 MR. STANTON: Right. We wouldn't want a gas -- 11 that's true. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: What are your revenue -- what are 13 your revenue estimates based upon? What kind of occupancy? 14 MR. STANTON: The revenues are based on the previous 15 six months of what have been placed into the Kerr County 16 Juvenile Facility in the pre-adjudicated. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 MR. STANTON: We took all the bills -- we took all 19 the bills from the previous six months that have been issued 20 by the Kerr County Juvenile Detention Facility and expanded 21 out over the next six months. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm talking about revenue, the 23 income. 24 MR. STANTON: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. 25 Yes, sir. 4-3-06 20 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. What number of residents is 2 that based upon? Did you -- 3 MR. STANTON: I don't know the answer to that. What 4 we did was took the average billings for all the counties that 5 contract with the facility; we took the average billings for 6 each month and expanded that out over the next six months. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: This is pre-adjudicated 9 only. Is it male and female? 10 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would leave the older 12 facility available to -- for the Court to look at in terms of 13 what it wished to do with it, but I also know from a message I 14 had delivered to me this morning that if we were of a mind to 15 consider it, there's a possibility that the T.Y.C. might 16 consider leasing it from us and operating it itself. I don't 17 -- I don't foresee that as a -- our running it as a T.Y.C. 18 unit. I don't see that happening, because our success rate 19 doing that before wasn't all that good with those folks, and 20 staffing up to that level wasn't that good. But it was -- in 21 fact, it was pretty bad. But if they wanted to consider 22 leasing the facility and operating it themselves, that's 23 another option, of course, that the Court could take a look 24 at. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Ms. Harris, what's your opinion 4-3-06 21 1 on options? 2 MS. HARRIS: Thank you, Commissioner. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: First time you've ever been 4 asked that, isn't it? 5 MS. HARRIS: Well, I would like to make a remark 6 about the T.Y.C. You're absolutely right. Because of the 7 difficulty that we had before -- now, I don't know if -- if 8 T.Y.C. was going to approach you to lease the old building and 9 the new building. Just let me give you a heads-up if you're 10 considering leasing the old building. Structurally, the type 11 of kids that T.Y.C. sends to contract facilities, the old 12 building might not hold up. The ceilings in the individual 13 bedrooms in the old building are quite low, and the sprinkler 14 heads are just right there, and that's very tempting for 15 T.Y.C. kids to break those sprinkler heads on a very regular 16 basis and flood the room, so keep that in mind. Turning the 17 plumbing off -- turning the water off whenever that occurs is 18 -- I mean, it's done; you can get to it. But the room is 19 usually going to flood before you have the opportunity to get 20 to where the cutoff is, so just keep that in mind. 21 You know, this -- this is going to affect everybody 22 that works out there, and it's going to affect the kids and 23 it's going to affect the staff out there. Having said that, I 24 believe that the staff have been prepared for what the 25 possible repercussions would be. Even if I had not resigned, 4-3-06 22 1 we were about to come up to a very difficult budget time, and 2 everybody at the facility, we know that. And we know that the 3 budget has been a bone of contention, and we know that the 4 budget has -- we look at that budget very closely. We all do, 5 the Court and us at the facility, and we know that the 6 facility is not a cash cow. It just does not make money. 7 It's not going to. It's going to be a deficit. So, I would 8 think that it would be very wise for the Court, given that, to 9 decrease the deficit as much as you possibly can. That's -- 10 that's the name of the game. And try to figure out what 11 option and what scenario gets you to that point. 12 There are 16 pre kids out there today. Out of the 13 16, five are Kerr County kids. The rest of them are 14 out-of-county kids. Menard, McCullough, Llano, Bandera, 15 Mason. It's not -- that's not a steady population of pre's 16 every day, but I certainly agree that -- that you would have 17 to gear up for at least 16 kids, and to keep in mind to try to 18 keep your females and your males separate as well. I -- I 19 know that there's -- there's a need to keep a detention 20 facility in Kerr County. I know that. So, as far as my 21 recommendation, I recommend that you do what's best for y'all. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Harris, let me ask you, if I 23 might. You say there's 16 out there now? 24 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: How many males? How many females? 4-3-06 23 1 MS. HARRIS: Four females. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: And 12 males? 3 MS. HARRIS: And 12 males, yes, sir. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: So, we're into two phases over on the 5 male side. 6 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir, that's two dorms of males on 7 the new -- in the new building and one dorm of females, so 8 that's all three dorms being occupied if you had them in the 9 new building. Yes, that's correct. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 16. And how many of them are 11 Kerr? 12 MS. HARRIS: Five. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Question. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You can keep the males and 15 females separated -- I mean together under what circumstances? 16 MS. HARRIS: Whenever we do -- whenever we're 17 crowded on the post side -- we're not crowded, but when 18 there's not any available beds on the post side, and it's also 19 for programming purposes, if you can keep all the pre's 20 together, so what we've been doing of late is we've got the 21 males and the females on the same dorm, pre's, but we have a 22 female and a male staff on there, because the State mandates 23 that when it comes to hygiene time, you have to have 24 gender-specific staff for your kids. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Day and night. 4-3-06 24 1 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Ms. Harris, first let me 3 say thank you for the work you've done for Kerr County. 4 MS. HARRIS: Thank you. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've got an impression that 6 if this thing could have worked, you'd have made it work. But 7 if that's true, it couldn't work. 8 MS. HARRIS: Thank you. I appreciate that. 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I've heard the answer to 10 this before, but I'm not ever sure I get it right. Most 11 counties -- most of the 254 counties in Texas -- 200 of them, 12 more or less -- don't have a juvenile detention facility. 13 MS. HARRIS: Correct, the little small counties. 14 That's right. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So why do we need one? 16 Just 'cause we don't want to transport kids? Is that the only 17 reason? 18 MS. HARRIS: That could be -- that could be one 19 reason. That could be. I know that that is an arduous task 20 and that's a difficult task, and that's not something that -- 21 that people want to do. I remember in our discussions back in 22 the summer of '04, the fall of '04 when we -- when the Court 23 was discussing about going to buy the facility, not going to 24 buy it. If we don't buy it, you know, are we just going to do 25 away with the whole thing? And I remember there were several 4-3-06 25 1 discussions about there were -- popular opinion from the 2 community deemed that we needed a juvenile facility in order 3 to have a place for the Kerr County kids to be placed. Now, 4 Commissioner, whether you need -- it's imperative that you 5 have that facility, that's another issue, and I can't make 6 that decision. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just -- I don't want to 8 belabor this, but I'll try it one more way. Who is the 9 beneficiary of having it? Is it the children? Is it the 10 Sheriff's Office? It's not the taxpayers, that's for sure. 11 MS. HARRIS: To have a detention facility? In my 12 estimation, I think it's best for the kids. They're here 13 locally, their services are here locally, their parents are 14 here. It's not such a cumbersome burden on the parents to 15 travel to go visit their kids. The court is here. 16 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We've got, oh, I guess at 17 least three privately-owned facilities for -- for difficult 18 children here, abused and abandoned children -- 19 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: -- in Kerr County, and 21 they've -- people there have campaigned me about keeping this 22 open. It's a -- at least a convenience to them. 23 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Are a large number of our 25 pre-adjudicated children from those three, 3-H -- 4-3-06 26 1 MS. HARRIS: 3-H Youth Ranch and Star Ranch? 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And H.C.Y.R. 3 MS. HARRIS: Not a large population, but yes, we do 4 get some of those kids, and it's usually a case of a runaway 5 that we get those -- get those kids. But, yes, we do get some 6 kids from Star Ranch and from 3-H Youth Ranch, but it's not a 7 large population of them. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's not half? 9 MS. HARRIS: No, sir, I wouldn't say so. 10 MR. WILBANKS: No. 11 MS. HARRIS: No. No, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's all I have. 13 MR. STANTON: Can I comment on one of the questions 14 you asked Ms. Harris? I agree with what she said, but I think 15 the citizens of Kerr County do get the benefit of having the 16 detention center in Kerr County, due to the fact that I 17 believe that a lot less -- fewer kids would be placed in 18 juvenile detention facilities if the facility was not here in 19 Kerr County. I believe that the -- that the police department 20 and Sheriff's Department might not come out and say so, but I 21 believe that the referrals that we currently get, where it's a 22 whole lot easier to place a kid out here than it is taking a 23 kid to a different county, and I believe that you'll see a -- 24 maybe not a dramatic reduction, but I believe you would see a 25 reduction in the amount of kids that were placed in juvenile 4-3-06 27 1 detention facilities that really need to be placed in 2 detention facilities, just for the fact that there's -- that 3 other -- 4 MS. HARRIS: Transporting. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's a valid point, I'm 6 sure. 7 MS. HARRIS: The transporting, right. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a question. We have 9 -- there's 16 pre's today, and five Kerr, and that means 11 10 out-of-county. What do -- what does it cost us per child, per 11 day? 12 MS. HARRIS: Do you know? 13 MR. STANTON: No, ma'am, I have no idea. 14 MS. HARRIS: On the pre side? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 16 MS. HARRIS: I would have to put the pencil and 17 paper to it, Commissioner, in order to give you a more 18 accurate figure. It's more than -- it's more than 83, I would 19 think, 'cause by time you add payroll and food -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So -- 21 MS. HARRIS: -- and clothing, 'cause you've got to 22 clothe those kids. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We charge 83? 24 MS. HARRIS: Mm-hmm. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We charge the other counties 4-3-06 28 1 83, and it costs us more? 2 MS. HARRIS: Probably a little bit more. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Costs us more than 83 to 4 house them. All right. That's for 11 kids. 5 MS. HARRIS: 11? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm just dealing with 7 out-of-county -- 8 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- people. 10 MS. HARRIS: Yes. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: None of the treatment 12 program costs are incorporated in that? 13 MS. HARRIS: No, sir. No, sir, there are no 14 treatment costs. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Just incarceration costs, as 16 mandated by T.J.P.C., and food costs. 17 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. And their clothes and 18 hygiene products. 19 MR. STANTON: With the current budget that the 20 Commissioners are looking at, the one that I worked up over 21 the weekend, that actually is projected that if you needed to, 22 you could house up to 24 pre-adjudicated youth, because there 23 are three -- in those projections, there's three certified 24 JDO's and a control room operator, and with staffing ratios of 25 one-to-eight, you could expand to the third wing if you had to 4-3-06 29 1 and house up to 24 kids. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Glenn, I know the old facility 3 is in bad shape from a maintenance standpoint, or "bad" being 4 costing money. What about the new facility? 5 MR. HOLEKAMP: It's -- it's in pretty good shape. 6 We've had some lock issues, but the lock issues have been that 7 we inherited, I think, some locks that are not real sound as 8 far as the electronic part of it is concerned. They work 9 manually, but not electronically. It -- it's strictly when 10 we -- we had a real difficult time when we had the T.Y.C. kids 11 there, because of the nature of some of their antics. So, I 12 think we've gotten quite a few of the issues worked out in the 13 old building, as far as air conditioning and that sort of 14 thing. Plumbing is always going to be an issue. The old 15 building is -- kitchen area probably needs a revamping. So 16 does the office area; those floors are in pretty bad shape. 17 New building is pretty sound. I -- I would say it's -- 18 there's some lock issues, like I said, that would have to be 19 resolved, but the old building we pretty much have leveled 20 off. We have some issues there, but they shouldn't be 21 big-ticket items. Kitchen is going -- has got a lot of 22 equipment in there that is limping along. And I think, as -- 23 as Kevin just -- just touched on it just briefly, in the new 24 building they have a prep -- they call it a prep kitchen, prep 25 area. That could be utilized for that. I mean, actually, 4-3-06 30 1 microwaves; they might even have a range, you know. I 2 don't -- I don't foresee it to be a full-blown kitchen, no, 3 because as she indicated, it's not designed for that. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which building, in your opinion, 5 is better suited for other uses, such as office space? 6 MR. HOLEKAMP: Probably the old building at this 7 point. And the reason I say that is -- is because -- and 8 Ms. Harris just brought it up. I don't understand and will 9 never understand why you put a low ceiling in a juvenile 10 facility with -- with sprinkler heads which can be reached. 11 MS. HARRIS: Yeah. 12 MR. HOLEKAMP: And I -- I think as time goes on, 13 we're going to have a mess, a lot of water in the old 14 building. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean, has this been an 16 ongoing problem? We've had a lot of these sprinkler heads -- 17 MR. HOLEKAMP: A lot. 18 MS. HARRIS: In the past. 19 MR. HOLEKAMP: Prior to October, I couldn't say. 20 MR. WILBANKS: Since Ms. Harris has been here, it 21 hasn't been that bad. We changed our population. Back when 22 we had the Houston kids, it was a regular thing. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you, Glenn. 24 Ms. Harris? I want to say to you, thank you for your service 25 to our community. I've been here a long time, and I don't 4-3-06 31 1 know of a County employee that tried harder and worked harder 2 at something than you did. 3 MS. HARRIS: Thank you. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It was like in -- as the 5 storm was all about your head, your face was like flint, as 6 the Bible says, in trying to make this thing work, and I 7 appreciate that very much. 8 MS. HARRIS: Thank you. I appreciate that. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a couple of comments I 10 wanted to make about the facility. What -- I wanted to just 11 open the ball and try to get it going, or keep it going. I'd 12 like to see us operate that facility as a -- as a 13 pre-adjudicated only, have an architect come and take a look 14 at that old building and tell us what it would take to revert 15 it into office space, move the Juvenile Probation and the 16 Adult Probation operations out there. The Adult Probation 17 rental today is $28,800 a year. Turn the -- transfer the 18 administration function over to the Juvenile Probation 19 Department, and staff the facility with minimum employees to 20 -- to meet the State's guidelines, and address Kerr County and 21 maybe contiguous counties. Contract with the Sheriff's Office 22 for meals. Or offer the thing for sale, the whole deal. 23 Those are my thoughts. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Essentially, a lot of what 25 Commissioner Baldwin says is -- is in keeping with my -- my 4-3-06 32 1 thoughts and the questions I outline for the Court to 2 consider. I think this is an appropriate time for us to make 3 this decision in light of Ms. Harris' resignation. And, 4 Becky, I want to say to you also -- I want to thank you for 5 your service. I know the situation under which you came to 6 Kerr County is not the situation which you leave Kerr County. 7 Whatever your expectations were, I'm not certain. I know 8 we've gone up and down a lot of roller coaster hills, but my 9 thanks to you particularly for the fact that you cleaned up 10 our act, if you will. You've enabled us to -- to look forward 11 knowing that we were not guilty of all of the things that the 12 world was, in effect, charging us with. That's behind us. It 13 was not your ability -- or in your ability to be able to 14 foresee the economic future of the building, and that led us 15 to -- from different administration into the operation by 16 Commissioners Court. Those things were totally out of your 17 control, but you weathered those storms as beautifully as any 18 human being could do. I personally want to wish you well in 19 all of your endeavors. You're a real sport, you're a real 20 trouper, and you're a class act. I thank you. 21 MS. HARRIS: Thank you very much. I appreciate 22 that. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Getting back to that, now, I 24 think we -- we're at that point in our career as an operator 25 of a juvenile facility where this Court has to fish or cut 4-3-06 33 1 bait. We have to decide what we're going to do. I personally 2 have -- after watching the ups and downs of this operation and 3 the cost of it, and having listened to 20 different pro formas 4 during budget, which most didn't make a lot of sense, some we 5 wanted to make sense, some never had a real opportunity to 6 make sense, I've come to the conclusion that our interests, 7 and about half of the taxpayers of Kerr County, are best 8 served if we go to a pre-adjudicated facility. I believed the 9 Sheriff when he said it. I think there's value in what he 10 said, and I think it probably carries forward today. That was 11 supported again this morning by Mr. Stanton, that there is 12 psychological value in having a detention facility just around 13 the corner for those youth who, for whatever reasons, are 14 teetering on the brink of lawlessness. And I think that there 15 is -- I'd like for us to be able to continue that and be able 16 to look at our constituents and our law enforcement people in 17 the face and say, "Yes, we'll do our part." 18 We operate a jail at a great loss. Law enforcement 19 is not a profit maker. Juvenile detention was never intended 20 to be a profit maker, particularly if you're dealing with the 21 State who lays down all these rules and regulations on you, 22 and expectations. The State knows it, not only from the 23 standpoint of making the rules, but the State knows it 'cause 24 they operate facilities themselves, and they're part of the 25 problem. But I don't see them cleaning up their act, so the 4-3-06 34 1 question is, how are we going to clean up our act? So, I 2 agree that -- I think we -- my position is we should have a 3 pre-adjudicated facility. I believe the newer building offers 4 us fewer problems in which to operate, and I believe that the 5 Probation Department can, or has at least expressed a 6 willingness to move its operation out there and office itself 7 in that facility. The older building, if it is vacated after 8 giving the counties appropriate time to get their youth home, 9 we can take our time in determining what is best for it. It 10 can and should probably be converted to some extent to office 11 facilities. It may also, a portion of it, be available to 12 assist our Maintenance people in finding dry storage for the 13 burgeoning county records that keep growing day by day. So, I 14 think those -- these are the things that are in front of us, 15 and at this point in this discussion, that's where I am. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I'll say a couple words. 17 I pretty much echo what the other Commissioners said about 18 Ms. Harris' performance. I think she's done a good job under 19 very difficult circumstances. I appreciate it, and good luck 20 to you in your next endeavor. 21 MS. HARRIS: Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I probably will, you know, agree 23 pretty much with what Commissioner Baldwin and Williams said 24 as to the direction. A little bit different -- I think 25 Commissioner Baldwin said, "or sell everything." I'd like to 4-3-06 35 1 keep that more into an analysis of selling it all in addition 2 to doing the preadjudication. I think we're kind of in the 3 middle of budget year. I would like to really evaluate the 4 true future potential of all that property out there and those 5 facilities, or just part of it. And if we sell it, what we 6 can sell it for, if at all. My gut feeling is that it makes 7 sense for us to keep it for additional county offices, as 8 we're growing, but I'd like to really look at that at the same 9 time so that during the budget process, we have a clear 10 direction as to we're going to operate a pre-adjudication 11 facility forward, and that's it. 12 If we're going to do that, it seems that that's a 13 large facility to do that, and I'm wondering if it may not be 14 better to find another use for that and maybe build a real 15 small facility somewhere. And if we can sell this for a fair 16 amount of money or have other uses for it, it just seems we -- 17 this Court has -- for my three terms as a Commissioner, has 18 inherited a building built by Recor, and it was run by the 19 Juvenile Board and expanded. And we really didn't -- you 20 know, we -- the only time the Court has had to deal with it is 21 when things got bad out there and problems developed, so we've 22 always been kind of in a very defensive mode in the -- that 23 entire setup out there. Or a reactive mode is probably 24 better. And I'd like to see us really take some time just in 25 the next six months to look at what the best property use is 4-3-06 36 1 out there, and also look at the best viability of a 2 preadjudication facility, either there or maybe a smaller unit 3 just to house Kerr County kids. Clearly, under the current 4 rules by the State, it does not make economic sense for the 5 taxpayers to house out-of-county kids, period, and so we just 6 need to figure out the best way to move forward with that in 7 mind. Judge, we haven't heard from you. What are your 8 opinions? 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Haven't heard from me, 10 either. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I heard from you earlier. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Nicholson? 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If this were September, I'd 14 vote to close the facility and get out of the juvenile 15 detention business. And I also think we need to find, as 16 close as we can, a permanent solution to this issue so that 17 it's not being dealt with annually, or more often than that. 18 I don't think Kerr County taxpayers ought to be paying money 19 to house children from -- from other counties, and I think 20 that's an economic fact of life. I don't think you'll ever 21 get around that. The other thing we don't talk very much 22 about is the debt service costs. That's in addition, of 23 course, to the -- to the operating costs. Those are pretty 24 large, and I wouldn't mind if we could unload that and, for a 25 change, have a beneficial impact on the rainy day fund. So, 4-3-06 37 1 all that is to say that I'll -- I will agree it's a good plan, 2 Buster. I will agree and vote for that now, but I may not in 3 July or September. I don't -- I continue to not understand 4 how we're smarter than those other 200 counties that don't 5 have one of these things. That's all. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, you know, it's -- whether or 7 not we have a criminal justice system in this county is not 8 optional; it's required by the state of Texas. And as all of 9 you know, there's a -- there are two components to that, 10 adults and juveniles. How we go about it, of course, is a 11 different -- a different matter. Mr. Stanton mentioned that 12 having a local detention facility as being a major plus in 13 juvenile -- in the juvenile justice system. The enforcement 14 aspect of it, I think, is a much larger factor than -- than 15 folks might initially believe. If an officer comes upon a 16 child out on the street committing a felony offense, and that 17 officer knows there's a local juvenile justice facility, a 18 detention facility where that child can be detained and be 19 required to immediately have consequences for criminal 20 activity, I think that officer is much more likely to follow 21 through on his enforcement pursuits. 22 If, on the other hand, that officer knows that it's 23 a matter of detaining that child, and he, or he in combination 24 with the Juvenile Probation Department, has to get on the 25 phone and ring up a number of different detention facilities 4-3-06 38 1 that are certified -- some of them may be fairly close, some 2 of them may not be very close -- to ascertain availability of 3 beds, then thinking about the transporting of that child 4 there, and if you've got a female, why, you've got to worry 5 about additional personnel. I think there's a chilling effect 6 on the enforcement end of it if you've -- if the officer has 7 to go through that entire drill. And I doubt seriously that 8 many of those officers would 'fess up to all that. They're 9 going to tell you, "We're going to enforce the law if we've 10 got to carry that child 500 miles or 5 miles." I would submit 11 that that's not entirely accurate; it's disingenuous if they 12 say that. 13 That being the case, what happens to your juvenile 14 justice system? Well, your juvenile justice system is not 15 nearly as effective. And if your juvenile justice system is 16 not nearly as effective, you've got a bigger burden on your 17 adult criminal justice system, and when they get into the 18 adult criminal justice system, the likelihood of -- of saving 19 those individuals is a whole lot less than when they're 20 juveniles. When they're children, they're more susceptible to 21 change, rehabilitation. You can put them through programs 22 that will keep them from being permanently scarred with a 23 criminal record, which makes their opportunities for the 24 future a whole lot more expansive. If they go into the adult 25 criminal justice system, the likelihood that you're going to 4-3-06 39 1 lose them and they're going to be in your adult jails and 2 incarceration facilities is much greater. Their recidivism is 3 much greater. The rehabilitation programs in the adult system 4 are slim to nonexistent. Basically, they're warehoused. The 5 penal people will not necessarily tell you that, but they'll 6 tell you they don't have enough facilities for substance abuse 7 programs, where a lot of this problem is. 8 These children that you have failed to rehabilitate 9 in the juvenile system become scarred with permanent records. 10 Their opportunities for employment are -- are greatly reduced. 11 You end up picking up their lawyer's bills in their adult 12 criminal cases. You end up providing social services to the 13 now dependents that they have; the wives, the children. It's 14 kind of like the Fram commercial; you pay me now or you pay me 15 later. Without an effective juvenile justice system, I think 16 you're creating a tremendous problem in the adult system. I 17 can understand taxpayers wanting to look at the short term and 18 say, "I don't care what it's going to cost three years from 19 now or 13 years from now. I know what it's going to cost me 20 today." The cost is out there. It's going to have to be 21 incurred sometime. I strongly believe that if you pay the 22 cost up front, your overall cost is much, much less if you do 23 it on the juvenile justice end of the equation. 24 Ms. Harris has done yeoman's work out there in 25 bringing about some positive changes in a whole lot of kids, 4-3-06 40 1 and the people of this community and of the state of Texas who 2 have placed their children out there, or others who have 3 placed them out there owe her a tremendous debt of gratitude. 4 There have been children leave out there that really weren't 5 particularly happy to go, contrary to what you might think, 6 and it's because of the experience they had out there. And 7 that's the kind of positive things that you're trying to 8 accomplish in the juvenile justice system. It's not all the 9 children's fault. True, the children commit the acts that 10 bring them into the juvenile justice system, but when you look 11 at the overall aspect of juvenile justice, you're looking at 12 mostly single-parent families; you're looking at situations 13 where that single parent, or maybe both parents, if there's 14 two, are merely scrambling to make it through the day. 15 They're not worried about the end of the month. That's way 16 out in the future. They're worried about today and this week. 17 They may or may not have transportation. They take things for 18 granted -- or we take things for granted that they struggle 19 with on a daily basis, but they're products -- the children 20 are products of this sort of environment. 21 And Ms. Harris and her staff -- I apologize for 22 omitting omitting the staff, because they're an integral part 23 of what goes on out there -- have done a fabulous, fabulous 24 job. And I know Ms. Harris is going to do well wherever she 25 goes, because she's committed to the mission, the concept, and 4-3-06 41 1 the betterment of children, and that's her niche. She's found 2 it, and I don't think she's going to end up anywhere else and 3 be happy. But she and her staff have made it happen out 4 there. I hate to see -- I hate to see at least one aspect of 5 -- of our future, that being the children of this community, 6 this state, this area, be pawns in an economic battle, but 7 that's what it's come down to. And that's all we're talking 8 about, folks, is economics. And that ought not be the 9 measure. But apparently it's become that, and I regret it, 10 and I think we're going to suffer some ill effects as a result 11 of it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, are you saying that we -- 13 in your opinion, we should keep it open as-is? And try to -- 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The only way I would recommend that 15 we keep it open as-is, Commissioner, is if this Court will 16 make a commitment to fund the operation of that facility and 17 then back away and not continually thereafter, on a frequent 18 basis, try and second-guess, voice concerns on whether or not 19 we made the correct decision or not the correct decision. 20 That is what has prevented that facility from improving in the 21 last several months. Juvenile detention officers around the 22 state are not going to place a child at that facility on a 23 long-term -- that's six-month or longer -- program if they 24 keep hearing rumblings that, well, it may close next month, 25 two months, three months. If that Chief Probation Officer 4-3-06 42 1 that's responsible for placing that child has any inkling that 2 he or she may have to come back to this facility, pick up that 3 child in two or three months, and then maybe re-place that 4 child in another program, possibly starting that child all 5 over in the program, we're not going to get the increase. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're not going to blame 7 this Commissioners Court for the problem out there, I'm sorry. 8 I -- I disagree with you 100 percent. And what you're saying 9 is it's this Court's fault that -- that that facility failed 10 out there. Untrue. Major untrue. We have Kerr County 11 children out there, and in the post program we've averaged 12 four a day for a year, and pre-adjudicated, we've averaged 13 seven. We're dealing with Kerr County kids here. Four and 14 seven, very small numbers. All those other numbers that come 15 in are out-of-county that we -- the taxpayers of this county 16 subsidize other counties to keep this facility open, and that 17 doesn't work. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In addition to what 19 Commissioner Baldwin is saying, I don't believe the economic 20 climate in this arena is conducive to -- for Kerr County to 21 consider running a facility on a full-blown pre-, 22 post-adjudicated format. I believe, and I can, in my own 23 mind, justify cutting it back to a pre-adjudicated facility. 24 I can also -- I can also see an opportunity for us to examine 25 our per diem cost and our charges. I don't know that it's 4-3-06 43 1 particularly unrealistic for us to tell our neighboring 2 counties that if they're going to send their pre-adjudicated 3 kids here, the cost to do so is cost plus administrative fee, 4 'cause costs continue to escalate, and there's no reason why 5 we should bear the administrative costs or we should bear the 6 additional cost. I believe that's quite appropriate. And I 7 think you can apply that on a pre-adjudicated basis only. We 8 can talk all we want to talk, and we can continue to talk, but 9 I'm going to offer a motion; we can talk to the motion. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I just -- let me say that 11 Commissioner Baldwin is -- his comments are right spot-on, and 12 he almost has talked me into not supporting his proposal. If 13 -- if we're going to shut that thing down, we ought to shut it 14 down today, not in September. If there's no chance that it's 15 going to be economically viable for the '06-'07 year, then we 16 ought to make a decision now to do something different. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think it's an issue of 18 being economically viable. I think that we have an obligation 19 to Kerr County kids to -- you know, for the juvenile justice 20 system to provide, you know, some sort of a setting, so I -- I 21 mean, I can't see the day that I will support not having a 22 pre-adjudicated facility in Kerr County. I'm not sure that's 23 where it needs to be, is out there at those two buildings. I 24 think we're forcing that to be our facility 'cause we own it. 25 That's why I'd like to look at other options for that 4-3-06 44 1 facility, and possibly selling it, getting rid of that 2 long-term debt that we are saddled with out there, and maybe 3 look at some other options for a much smaller facility that 4 only houses Kerr County pre-adjudicated kids. I do like -- 5 and I would like to see -- I presume Mr. Stanton's going to be 6 the one overseeing this operation. I'd like to have a good 7 analysis of what Commissioner Williams said. I think it's 8 very viable. If the other counties aren't willing to pay the 9 costs, the true cost of that facility, I don't want their 10 kids. Let them put them somewhere else. It's not right for 11 the taxpayers of this county. If they're willing to help pay 12 the true cost, yeah, that's fine; I'll be glad to help the 13 local counties right around us. But, you know, if it benefits 14 us, let's do it, but if it's not a benefit to the taxpayers 15 and to Kerr County, I don't see any reason why we should 16 continue down that road. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I've got one more 18 question before Bill gets into the discussion here. It seems 19 like that everyone kind of agrees that the pro -- Juvenile 20 Probation Department take over the program; that means 21 Mr. Stanton. Do you know the feelings -- or what is the 22 feelings of the Juvenile Board about that happening? About 23 Mr. Stanton taking over the program? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Couldn't tell you. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're the chairman of that 4-3-06 45 1 -- I mean, you're part of the board. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm, yes. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What is your -- what do you 4 think? I mean, do you have any problem with Mr. Stanton 5 taking over the program? 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Stanton taking over the operation 7 of the juvenile facility? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I don't have a problem with that. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Okay. I would think 11 the rest of your board, then, would probably follow suit. I 12 would think they would. So -- you know, I think that's a 13 major deal. I'd hate to see us get too far down the road, and 14 then the Juvenile Board decides, you know, "Time out, we're 15 not going to allow that to happen." It needs to be on the 16 table to talk about at least. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's why I think we need -- I 18 mean, I think we need to set a direction and we need their 19 concurrence, really, because Mr. Stanton -- he's -- isn't he 20 one of those that kind of reports to them? 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes. Not to us. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean, I think we get into 23 a situation that we need to either sit down with the Juvenile 24 Board as a whole and kind of go over how this is going to work 25 out. Because, I mean, I think you're very right, Commissioner 4-3-06 46 1 Baldwin; we don't want the Juvenile Board going one direction 2 and us going another direction. A number of ideas, you know, 3 for anything to do with the operations out there. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, the operation's going 5 to be operated under T.J.P.C. regulations. Whether it's pre 6 or post, we're not going to have any say about that. And any 7 programming that comes down the line, it has to be looked over 8 by the County Judge and the two District Judges. It's going 9 to be looked over by those people without any say from us. I 10 see what our say is, is the direction and the economics of it, 11 and I think that's what we're basically talking about today. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And I think 13 operations -- I mean, I guess the -- the relationship between 14 this Court and the Juvenile Board stays consistent, is what it 15 currently is. That's our facility, and they do their 16 operational part with the justice system. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Baldwin, was your 18 question does the Juvenile Board -- are they inclined to want 19 to operate this facility? Is that what your -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Was that your question? 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, sir. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay, I just wanted to make 24 sure I didn't misunderstand. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No. I ask goofy questions 4-3-06 47 1 sometimes, but that's not amongst them. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would move that the Kerr 3 County Juvenile Detention Facility be converted to a 4 pre-adjudicated facility only, under the supervision of the 5 Juvenile Probation Department, and that within a reasonable 6 period of time, the Juvenile Probation Department move its 7 operation to the new annex building, and in the meantime, we 8 examine alternatives for the utilization of the old building. 9 The staffing would be as set forth by the T.J.P.C. 10 regulations, and Mr. Stanton would be heading that up and will 11 be making those decisions. I would also like the motion to 12 incorporate a complete examination of the cost to incarcerate 13 a juvenile on a pre-adjudicated basis, and determine the exact 14 cost and what, if any, reasonable addition to that cost can or 15 should be charged to other counties who send their children 16 here. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Before I second that, I have 18 a question. Tell me more about what counties that we receive 19 kids from. What counties? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Typically, they're our 21 neighboring or contiguous counties. Is that correct, Kevin or 22 Becky? Whomever. 23 MS. HARRIS: Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Typically, they're our 25 contiguous hill country counties. 4-3-06 48 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, we're talking about Kerr 2 County and contiguous counties to Kerr County? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kendall, Bandera, Gillespie, 4 Kimble perhaps. Where else? In the hill country. 5 MS. HARRIS: Menard, McCullough, Mason, and Kimble 6 County are all in the same judicial district, taken care of by 7 one probation officer. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Not contiguous to Kerr 9 County. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Hill country. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now we're hill country; now 12 we're down to south Texas. 13 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: You can frame it as "same 14 judicial district." 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judicial district? Uvalde is 16 not part of that. 17 MS. HARRIS: Uvalde and Val Verde have consistently 18 sent us kids, so that would be -- 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On a pre-adjudicated basis? 20 MS. HARRIS: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I think we need to know. I'd 22 like to know before I vote on that, what -- exactly what we're 23 talking about. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me -- do you want to second 4-3-06 49 1 it? I mean, we can discuss this after the second. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure, I'll second the motion. 3 MR. STANTON: Could I say something real quick? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Just a minute. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kevin? 6 MR. STANTON: I don't know if it's the -- you guys 7 will know the answer to this a lot better than I would, but do 8 we need to put in the motion also something that's contingent 9 on the Juvenile Board's approval? 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If that's required. 11 MR. STANTON: Or the Juvenile Board's agreement? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If they don't approve it, 13 this motion's downhill anyway. 14 MR. STANTON: I know. That's what I'm -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If that's a requirement, I'm 16 certainly amenable to that. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess, going to Commissioner 18 Baldwin's question, is to me, we -- my thought is we have the 19 minimum staffing that we need to have out there, and then we 20 keep whatever -- you know, if that allows us to have 16 kids, 21 then I want 16 kids in there. I don't care really where they 22 come from, as long as they're paying their -- their cost, the 23 true cost. If they're not paying their true cost, I don't 24 want any of them. I'm not going to subsidize any county. So, 25 I look at -- I like -- I really want to follow what 4-3-06 50 1 Commissioner Williams said. If they're not willing to pay, 2 you know, their -- the true costs out there, why should we 3 house -- I don't care if they're adjacent or not. If they're 4 willing to pay their -- the true cost out there, then I would 5 take, I mean, preference to the contiguous counties, but then 6 I'd want to keep it as full as possible. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Are you going to go -- 8 what happens when the 17th kid comes in? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't increase staffing. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're full. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We're full. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You don't accept the 17th 13 kid? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hmm-mm. Then you have to add 15 another group of staff. I want to keep it at the minimum 16 staffing. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which is all Kerr County needs. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. Now, if they're -- if 20 it's full of Del Rio people, and we have a -- we have a 21 Kerrville kid -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Del Rio kid goes home. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Del Rio kids go home. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the Kerr County kid goes in. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I mean, is that -- I 4-3-06 51 1 understand that, and I like it. Is that clear with everybody, 2 though? I mean -- 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It'll be clear if we make it 4 clear. 5 MR. STANTON: I think the one thing is, if we're 6 going to -- if the juvenile -- if the Commissioners Court is 7 going to go by what was presented as far as the budget goes 8 there, that budget includes enough staffing -- levels of 9 staffing that you could -- if you had to go up to 24 kids, 10 it's one for eight. And there's three certified JDO's on 11 staff, so you're talking that you can realistically go up to 12 24 kids. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I guess my view is, we're 14 never going to have 24 Kerr County -- I say never. Hopefully 15 we'll never have 24 Kerr County kids out there, and if there's 16 any kind of subsidy or break-even, we're not going up to that 17 staffing level. 18 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we're talking -- if we can 20 make $5 a kid, well, yes, I don't mind going up to 24 then, 21 but we're not going to do it when we're losing money. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask you, we average -- 23 last year we averaged seven pre-adjudicated kids. 24 MR. STANTON: Kerr County, pre-adjudicated. Kerr 25 County kids, yes, sir. 4-3-06 52 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kevin, can you come up here 2 closer, please? 3 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And, so, you're -- what 5 you're saying is your budget numbers will cover those seven, 6 and up to -- 7 MR. STANTON: 24. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- 24? 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Why not 16? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why not 16? 11 MR. STANTON: You have to have -- excuse me. You 12 have to have a male and female JDO in my -- you have to have 13 at least those two. If you're going to staff two wings, 14 you're going to have a male and female in each wing; you're 15 going to have to have another JDO acting as a shift supervisor 16 or something to relieve those JDO's when the they need 17 something, also to conduct intakes and do those types of 18 things that have to be done. Plus you're going to have to 19 have somebody in the control room, control room operator. So, 20 that leaves the three JDO's plus the control room operator. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: So, it could be staffed for 22 16 if it was one gender, but not if it's both genders? 23 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If it's going to be both 25 genders, you staff for 24, same as 16? 4-3-06 53 1 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 2 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Is that right? 3 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Let me ask one more question. 5 Then I'll -- let me ask you one more question; then I'm about 6 through. 7 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir, sorry. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The State requires one 9 employee per juvenile -- per eight juveniles in the daytime 10 hours? 11 MR. STANTON: During programming hours, yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Programming hours. 13 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And one employee per 18 15 during the non-program hours? 16 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir, I believe so. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, one employee per eight 18 juveniles in the program hours, and we average seven a day. 19 MR. STANTON: Kerr County, yes, sir. Yes, sir. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I may have to back off 21 my second. I don't know that I want to branch out into this 22 big thing. I just -- my mind has been on Kerr County only, 23 and we're averaging seven people a day. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if we're making -- if our -- 25 if we are charging more than it's costing us or equal to what 4-3-06 54 1 it's costing us, that's my only condition for going beyond 2 Kerr County kids, period. I mean, I don't want to subsidize 3 any other county. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Neither do I. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, I mean, I think that -- you 6 know, as long as that is part of the motion, I'm not -- 7 staffing is not critical. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: What was the motion? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The motion didn't 10 contemplate staffing level. The motion contemplates changing 11 our format to pre-adjudicated only. The State determines the 12 staffing levels. And I think part of the question is, 13 whatever the minimum staffing is, you're going to be able to 14 take from zero up to -- what is it, Kevin? Minimum staffing? 15 MR. STANTON: One to eight. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One to eight. You're going 17 to be able to take eight. Well, then, whether there are eight 18 Kerr County kids or two Kerr County kids and six Bandera kids, 19 the State's going to require you to have "X" number of people 20 to look over eight juveniles in the facility, so to me, it 21 doesn't make any difference. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Commissioner, for our -- 24 for our seven children, given that there's both, in that 25 seven, boys and girls, we can staff -- we have to staff for 24 4-3-06 55 1 to staff for the seven. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have to staff for 16. 3 MR. STANTON: Have to staff for 16. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Have to have for -- we have up 5 to eight boys and up to eight girls, right? 6 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: With a minimum staffing. 8 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And that's what I want. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that's the way the 11 building lays out; am I correct? 12 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: The sleeping dorms are in 14 units of eight? 15 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's more a function of 17 the building than it is anything. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And, to me, that's the staffing 19 level that I want. And then if we can, you know, break even 20 or, you know, make some money on the contiguous counties, 21 that's fine. But for Kerr County kids, unless we're doing 22 that, it's eight and eight, to me. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sure. My second stands. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do we need to add the caveat 4-3-06 56 1 that Mr. Stanton suggested with respect to the Juvenile Board 2 weighing in in a positive fashion, Judge? If so, I accept 3 that amendment. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't know what difference 5 it's going to make, 'cause if they don't -- if they -- the 6 Juvenile Board doesn't go along with it, this motion's over 7 anyway. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Back to square one. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Meaningless. Yeah, whatever. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you including that as part of 11 your motion? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: If you believe it's an 13 appropriate inclusion, I'm amenable to it. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not sure I have any belief one 15 way or the other. I'm kind of like Commissioner Baldwin; not 16 sure it'll work if there's -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't need it. My only other 18 -- it's more of a -- I don't know; it's more of a statement. 19 At our next Commissioners Court meeting, I would like 20 Mr. Stanton to come in and kind of go over his organization in 21 a little bit more detail as to exactly how -- you know, what's 22 going on out there, and -- I mean, I know we have your 23 proposal, but just go over it as to this is what you've done 24 or plan to do once Ms. Harris' effective date's over. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's also another caveat 4-3-06 57 1 in terms of the disbursement of juveniles that have to be 2 returned to their counties. I'm not sure what that's all 3 about. 4 MS. HARRIS: I would -- I would ask the Court, these 5 people are the ones that work with them and got them to this 6 point. I request that while I'm still here, we can get the 7 post-adjudicated kids -- arrangements made to be taken back to 8 their counties while I'm still here, and so the staff can have 9 closure with those kids. And by my last day, there will no 10 longer be any post kids, and that way, too, the therapist can 11 close out their therapy files. And those files will have to 12 be archived, and they're archived in an annex building. So, 13 I'd appreciate if we were allowed to do that. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's a reasonable 15 request. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I agree. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Absolutely. Any other questions or 19 comments on the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify 20 by raising your right hand. 21 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 23 (No response.) 24 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. That's all we 25 have on the agenda, so we will stand adjourned. 4-3-06 58 1 (Commissioners Court adjourned at 9:48 a.m.) 2 - - - - - - - - - - 3 4 STATE OF TEXAS | 5 COUNTY OF KERR | 6 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 7 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my 8 capacity as County Clerk of the Commissioners Court 9 of Kerr County, Texas, at the time and place 10 heretofore set forth. 11 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 4th day of 12 April, 2006. 13 14 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 15 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 16 Certified Shorthand Reporter 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4-3-06