1 2 KERRVILLE CITY COUNCIL 3 and 4 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 5 City/County Joint Meeting 6 Wednesday, August 9, 2006 7 9:00 a.m. 8 Kerrville Public Utility Board Meeting room 9 2250 Memorial Boulevard 10 Kerrville, Texas 11 12 13 14 15 16 P R E S E N T 17 Kerrville City Council: 18 EUGENE C. SMITH, Mayor 19 TODD A. BOCK, Mayor Pro Tem CARL MEEK, Councilperson, Place 2 20 T. SCOTT GROSS, Councilperson, Place 3 CHUCK COLEMAN, Councilperson, Place 4 21 PAUL HOFMANN, City Manager 22 Kerr County Commissioners Court: 23 PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 DAVE NICHOLSON, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X August 9, 2006 2 PAGE Call to Order 3 3 Discussion of Economic Development Steering Committee 3 4 Discussion of Joint County/City Projects 7 5 Dispatch 8 EMS 17 6 Fire 46 Library 65 7 Airport 104 Animal Control 105 8 Schedule a date for joint meeting of Kerr County 9 Commissioners' Court and Kerrville City Council 134 10 Adjourned 135 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 9:00 a.m., a joint 2 meeting of the Kerrville City Council and the Kerr County 3 Commissioners Court was held in the Kerrville Public Utility 4 Board Meeting Room, 2250 Memorial Boulevard, Kerrville, Texas, 5 and the following proceedings were had: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 JUDGE TINLEY: I will call to order the joint 8 meeting of the City of Kerrville and Kerr County Commissioners 9 Court meeting posted and scheduled for this date, Wednesday, 10 August 9, 2006, at 9 a.m. It is shortly after that time now. 11 You want to go ahead and call to order? 12 MAYOR SMITH: I'd like to call to order the 13 Kerrville City Council at a special meeting between the City 14 Council and the Commissioners Court on Wednesday, August 9th, 15 2006. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Might I suggest that we all rise and 17 give the pledge of allegiance? 18 (Pledge of allegiance.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. If I might, I think we 20 might be able to dispose of the second item on the agenda 21 rather quickly. The economic development steering committee, 22 as most of -- most of you recall, both the City of Kerrville 23 and the -- and Kerr County passed a resolution relative to an 24 economic development strategy which envisioned appointing of a 25 committee of no more than nine members, and I think it was 8-9-06 jcc 4 1 envisioned that nine be appointed. And after Kerr County had 2 adopted that resolution, I had a discussion with the City 3 Manager, and subsequently the mayor, and what I proposed was 4 that the nucleus of that committee be comprised of two members 5 of the Commissioners Court who had probably more interest in 6 economic development than the remaining members, not to say 7 that they didn't have an acute interest, and also that there 8 were two members of the City Council that had an acute 9 interest in -- in economic development, and that those four 10 comprise the committee. For those of you that might still be 11 wondering, I don't think it's any secret, on the city, 12 Mr. Coleman and Mr. Bock, and on the county side, myself and 13 -- and Commissioner Williams. And that that nucleus then 14 reach consensus on the remaining five members of the committee 15 under that resolution, and let's get on down the road. And 16 I've -- what I'd like to do is either seek confirmation of 17 that plan, or -- or some other appropriate plan so that we can 18 implement that strategy and get it moving. 19 MAYOR SMITH: Well, I'd like to make a motion that 20 the plan outlined by the County Judge be placed in effect as 21 soon as possible. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are you making a motion on 23 behalf of the City, County, or all of us together? 24 MAYOR SMITH: Well, I don't know how that -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: City. 8-9-06 jcc 5 1 MAYOR SMITH: For the city side, okay. I've made 2 the motion for the city side. I guess it needs to be seconded 3 by the city side. 4 MR. HAYES: Mayor, if you will, I don't think this 5 is posted for action today. You can take action at the next 6 council meeting or another joint meeting. 7 MAYOR SMITH: Okay, fine. Thank you. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, if the City's unable to take 9 action, I guess the next -- the backup situation would be, 10 does anyone have any other idea they want to float? And we 11 can kick that around while we're all here. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, neither -- what I'm 13 hearing is that no action be can be taken on any item today. 14 Correct? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what the County 16 Attorney just said. 17 MAYOR SMITH: Well, you can discuss it. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Sure, absolutely. 19 MAYOR SMITH: Okay. Does any Council member wish to 20 discuss the proposal by the County Judge? Anyone object to 21 it? I don't know if that's proper, but does anyone care to 22 discuss the matter? Does Mr. Bock and Mr. Coleman want to 23 accept that assignment? 24 MR. COLEMAN: Go ahead. I'm very pleased to have an 25 opportunity to serve on that commission, and would look 8-9-06 jcc 6 1 forward to doing so. And I agree with the Judge's summary; I 2 think that's appropriate and the way to go. 3 MR. BOCK: Mr. Mayor, I, myself, as long as there's 4 no objections from the Council, would not mind doing that. 5 MAYOR SMITH: Okay. Well, it'll be an agenda item 6 at our next meeting, so we can handle it in an appropriate 7 manner. That will keep our lawyer happy. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, the only comment I'd have 9 is that I presume this will be on our upcoming agenda or the 10 meeting after that, and if you would phrase -- I presume 11 you'll put that on the agenda -- phrase it such we can have a 12 little bit of direction on that, because I have some -- I have 13 no problem with the makeup that you've put out, but I do have 14 some -- the other five members, I do have some input as to who 15 I'd like to see on the committee. But I can -- we can deal 16 with that at Commissioners Court if y'all can carry that 17 forward. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Certainly, any strategy that's 19 brought forward by whomever may comprise that committee would 20 have to be approved by both governmental bodies, so that's -- 21 that's the safeguard that's built into it. 22 MAYOR SMITH: Yeah, I would have the same concern 23 that Jonathan expressed; that even though they -- they are, I 24 think the City Council would want to reserve the right to 25 review the people that are put on there. So -- 8-9-06 jcc 7 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, this gives us both the 2 opportunity, then, to -- to seek some advice from our 3 colleagues and determine other names that would be placed in 4 the nomination. 5 MAYOR SMITH: Right. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So it gives us the 7 opportunity to do that. 8 MAYOR SMITH: So, if any Councilperson desires or 9 has some ideas, he should discuss it with Mr. Bock and 10 Mr. Coleman. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This should be able to be on 12 both agendas for finalizing by the end of this month or second 13 meeting of August, I would think. I mean, this shouldn't 14 take -- 15 MAYOR SMITH: Our next meeting is on the 22nd. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. I mean, it shouldn't -- I 17 would hope -- I think we can be pretty close to that by that 18 point. Or they -- if not, then the first meeting of 19 September. Just so we don't drag this out too long. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: No, I think we should -- we should be 21 able to get it in this month, easily. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. That would be my hope. Why 24 don't we come back, then, to actually the first item, 25 discussion of joint City and County projects. What's the 8-9-06 jcc 8 1 pleasure of the group here? Where do we want to start? Which 2 ones? Somebody throw one out and let's get on with it. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, the agenda talks 4 about existing budget? Or potential for the future? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I see that as being open-ended, 6 whether it be existing or -- or future, proposed. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That said, let me throw 8 something on the table here that has been going through my 9 head for some time. I had a discussion with the Sheriff the 10 other day about it, and if you'll indulge me for a second, 11 step back in history for about 10 or 11 years ago. In this 12 very room, there was a discussion that took place between the 13 -- the principal law enforcement officers in Kerr County and 14 the City with respect to joint dispatch or common dispatch. 15 Took place right here about 11 years ago. I know about that, 16 because at that time I was the publisher of the Mountain Sun, 17 and I was asked to moderate that meeting, and I did so. Took 18 about an hour into the discussion, and we learned real quickly 19 that there was a potential turf war brewing, and there really 20 was not a great sense of confidence in 9-1-1, and that the 21 idea of -- the initiative of a joint dispatch was not going to 22 go anywhere. And so I don't recall that since that time, 23 there has been any discussion at all regarding that. 24 Last week I had an opportunity to visit with Kerr 25 County Sheriff Rusty Hierholzer and brought the topic back up 8-9-06 jcc 9 1 to him again, and he indicated that, conceptually, it was a 2 good idea, really made sense. The reason I brought it up to 3 the Sheriff was because he's requested three more dispatchers 4 on top of the number of dispatchers we already have in our 5 complement. So, if you lay that onto the table with the, I 6 believe, 8 or 10 that the City also funds, you begin to wonder 7 whether or not there is a possibility for economies of scale 8 and improvement in the efficiency. So, we talked about it a 9 little bit, and the Sheriff indicated that he would probably 10 be willing to consider that again, but we needed to have a way 11 in which politics were removed and efficiency and so forth 12 were the uppermost in mind. And the best way to remove the 13 politics in the Sheriff's mind, and I concur with him, is that 14 9-1-1 be the agency that is commissioned by the City and the 15 County to do dispatching, and under interlocal agreement, we 16 fund that. We fund it and equip it with whatever funds are 17 necessary to get the job done. 18 So, I would like to -- for us to consider the 19 possibility of having that as an initiative, and instructing 20 our chief law enforcement officers and our chief executive 21 officer or staff to examine the possibilities of it, see what 22 the savings are, see where the efficiencies can be improved, 23 and see what can happen that makes it better. If we had done 24 that 11 years ago, I venture to suggest the taxpayers of Kerr 25 County and the city could have saved two, three million 8-9-06 jcc 10 1 dollars over this period of time, and so I think this is an 2 initiative worth taking under advisement. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I agree. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I agree. And another way to 5 take the politics out of the thing is the physical buildings 6 that they're now housed in, we got to take them out of there 7 and put them in a neutral site somewhere. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly. That was one of 9 the reasons why it didn't go anywhere last time. It came to a 10 turf war as to where it was going to be located. But it 11 doesn't need to be that way. 12 MAYOR SMITH: There's a difference between the way 13 that the county government operates. The commissioners really 14 are the workers there, and in the city government, the City 15 Council sets policy, but the City Manager is -- the staff 16 works for the City Manager. So, if you want to talk about law 17 enforcement, the law enforcement officers are under the City 18 Manager. So, I imagine that the City Manager will do a lot of 19 the discussion of these issues in behalf of the City Council. 20 Of course, the City Council members have the right to put in 21 their two cents any -- any time they want. But the way the 22 city government is -- is set up, the City Manager would be the 23 principal party, different than the County, who -- which the 24 individual people are -- are elected separately. So, we'll -- 25 we might have a -- have to balance the differences between the 8-9-06 jcc 11 1 forms of government we have at the proper time. But -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Understood. 3 MAYOR SMITH: -- I'm sure anybody that cares to 4 comment will comment. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, the -- it appears that 6 the -- I haven't heard from anyone on the City, but if the 7 City wants to do it, the way do it is through a resolution 8 that both of us pass, similar to what we did with the economic 9 development. If both parties want to do a resolution, you can 10 set the guidelines as to how it's going to be done and 11 proceed. That's the way. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think that's a good way to 13 kick it off, just like we did on the economic development. 14 Everybody agree that we're going to kick it off. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's right. 16 MR. MEEK: Well, I'm very much interested in 17 exploring this avenue to determine what the savings -- 18 potential savings would be, the staffing requirements and all. 19 And I would -- I would see this falling under the domain of 20 policy, and the councilmen are the policy makers, and working 21 closely with our staff. I would like to -- I would like to 22 see some type of cooperation between the Sheriff's office and 23 the police -- the police to see where this might go. So, I 24 like the idea to explore. 25 MR. GROSS: Did you intend to include fire and EMS? 8-9-06 jcc 12 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry? 2 MR. GROSS: Did you intend to include fire and EMS? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Include? 4 MR. GROSS: Fire. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely, all 6 emergency services. Common dispatch for police, Sheriff, 7 emergency services. Whatever is dispatched comes together 8 under one -- one roof, one center, everything. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we're -- I shouldn't say 10 unique, but I know there are many counties and cities that do 11 this. I mean, whether they go through a third-party or they 12 -- we're one of the ones -- I mean, I think we're a little bit 13 probably on the unique side having separate dispatchers. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You know, in furtherance of 15 the discussion, years ago, when the topic first came up, 9-1-1 16 was -- if you'll excuse me, Mr. Amerine -- was floundering. 17 That was before you got here. And since you've gotten here, 18 it no longer flounders; it functions beautifully, and -- to my 19 understanding. And that was one of the -- one of the 20 impediments in those days, that it just couldn't come together 21 and just wouldn't work, plus the natural turf wars. I think 22 9-1-1 does a beautiful job, and if we at the City and the 23 County got together by resolution and worked out the details 24 and the funding mechanism, let 9-1-1 handle it, this would be 25 a win-win situation for everybody. 8-9-06 jcc 13 1 MR. COLEMAN: Well, I agree with previously -- 2 MAYOR SMITH: Mr. Amerine is here, and we're giving 3 him work -- or putting -- possibly giving him work. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Gave him a load, didn't we? 5 MAYOR SMITH: Any comment in that regard? 6 MR. AMERINE: Well, I think the idea has merit and 7 that it should be studied. My understanding, speaking to both 8 the Sheriff and the Chief of Police, there are some 9 fundamental issues with warrants and other things that would 10 have to be worked through, but just -- consolidation has some 11 hooks in it that we're going to have to figure out, but there 12 would be an economy in scale and in a consolidated dispatch. 13 I'm a little bit concerned about the turf issue on employees, 14 whether they be 9-1-1 or the City or the County dispatching 15 other jurisdictions' resources. But, again, those are other 16 issues that can be worked through in this process. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm thinking about 18 Commissioner Williams' comments that we had an opportunity to 19 do this a number of years ago, and passed on it for -- for 20 whatever reasons, and that it probably cost a couple million 21 dollars in taxpayer dollars because we failed to take 22 advantage of that potential synergy. I'm also thinking that 23 taxes are a burden on Kerrville and Kerr County property 24 owners, and that a good way to attack that is to find ways to 25 do everything we do less costly and look for other synergies 8-9-06 jcc 14 1 so that we don't unnecessarily duplicate costs. So, this is 2 -- this is, in my view, but one example of a way to approach 3 easing the tax burden by reducing the cost of government. 4 Cost of government in Kerr County and Kerrville is high. It's 5 too high. On a per capita basis, we -- 6 AUDIENCE: Would you gentlemen speak up a little bit 7 so that we can hear what's going on? It's rather difficult 8 for us. Thank you. 9 MR. COLEMAN: I agree with previous comments. I'd 10 like to see the ability to work together on the thing more, 11 especially if we could save money. I'd like to see a 12 projection, I think, before we spent a lot of time and effort, 13 to make sure that it would -- would be an endeavor that would 14 save enough money to justify the operation. And maybe -- 15 maybe address -- maybe Bill could address some of the key 16 elements that might need to be ironed out. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That can be accomplished 18 probably by -- have the first phase in a resolution to have 19 him look at it, and then if it's worth pursuing, go a whole 20 step further, how you go about doing it. I mean, kind of find 21 the -- 22 MR. COLEMAN: Good idea. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That way, you don't get bogged 24 down in the minutiae, and then it's a dumb idea to start with. 25 MR. COLEMAN: Right. 8-9-06 jcc 15 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where if you're coming up with a 2 -- you know, look at the big points. If it works, there 3 certainly is a way to deal with details of employees and who 4 to report to and benefits and that type of stuff. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: As in the economic development 6 strategy resolution, I think we're probably to the point of 7 trying to craft a resolution that would direct both bodies to 8 designate participants and utilize whatever resources are 9 available to study the subject and to find parameters to 10 proceed or not. And once we get to that point, why, then we 11 can go forward, I think. 12 MR. BOCK: Commissioner Williams, should we expect a 13 resolution coming from the County, or would you prefer that to 14 be drafted by the City, or drafted with the city -- with our 15 City Manager? 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We could initiate it and 17 send it over to you for -- for your point of view and input 18 and change. I could take a crack at it. 19 MR. BOCK: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll work with the Judge and 21 we'll send it over to the mayor and Paul and see where it 22 takes us. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm -- 24 MR. BOCK: I like the idea. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm looking at Mr. Amerine. I think 8-9-06 jcc 16 1 maybe his input -- 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's valuable. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: -- might be helpful. Can we call on 4 you, Mr. Amerine? 5 MR. AMERINE: Absolutely. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: For at least guidance or critique? 7 MR. AMERINE: Absolutely. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 9 MAYOR SMITH: I see there's a lot of details that 10 need to be worked out on this, so it's not something that's 11 going to happen right away. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mayor, it's going to take a 13 little while to work it out, and if we -- if the parties do 14 agree, it'll be a lot of questions on staffing and some of the 15 things that Mr. Amerine mentioned. So, I'd say that we're 16 probably looking at at least a year before this would go in 17 effect. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Probably. 19 MAYOR SMITH: Probably. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Any more on that particular issue? 21 MAYOR SMITH: Do you have any comments on it? 22 MR. HOFMANN: No, sir. 23 MAYOR SMITH: Okay. 24 MR. HOFMANN: Happy to work on it. 25 MAYOR SMITH: Thank you. 8-9-06 jcc 17 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further comment on that issue? 2 Next subject? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: EMS. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Pardon? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: EMS. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: EMS? Okay. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- I don't have a great 8 problem with the proposal from the City on the EMS contract. 9 I mean, basically, it's what we worked out last year. It 10 seems to be, you know, pretty much fair. The area that I 11 would like to see a change, and it's not -- I don't really see 12 this involves the City a whole lot, but their concurrence 13 would be required, is that the County have the ability either 14 to take over billing, or work on the billing side. I have 15 talked to quite a few -- some other entities, EMS's and 16 counties and private companies that are collection-type 17 agencies -- or companies, and they feel there are areas that 18 can be billed that the City currently isn't billing, such as 19 dry runs, runs out to the -- well, I know one of the issues 20 has been before is runs out to the interstate, where 21 frequently those are non-Kerr County residents. You can 22 charge non-county residents a different rate than county 23 residents and things of that nature. And I don't think it's 24 going to ever get to the point that it'll pay for itself 25 totally, but I think that the -- there is a way to make some 8-9-06 jcc 18 1 additional revenue. 2 I brought this up, I think, last year, maybe others 3 as well. There seemed to, at that point, be a little bit of 4 a -- a lack of interest from the City changing their billing 5 structure. That's fine, but I think the County -- I would 6 like to bring it back to the County if we could work out a way 7 to do it with the City to get into the agreement that the 8 County can have a -- set a different billing structure for 9 county residents, and see where that takes us. And it's 10 really more a -- you know, at this point, it's very -- I mean, 11 we're again up -- our backs are up against the wall time-wise 12 to make changes in any of these agreements, so I don't know 13 that it can be done by the 1st of October, but I think we need 14 to -- you know, certainly, concurrence from the City that 15 they're willing to explore this and figure out how the County 16 can have a different billing structure. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're saying billing 18 structure for county residents. You mean billing structure 19 for runs outside the city limits? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'm sorry. 23 MAYOR SMITH: Don't forget that the people that live 24 in Kerrville are county residents. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're not going to forget 8-9-06 jcc 19 1 that, believe me. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's exactly right. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thanks for reminding us. 4 MAYOR SMITH: Remind you of that fact. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We get reminded daily. 6 MAYOR SMITH: Okay. 7 MR. COLEMAN: Jon, can you restate that very simply? 8 I missed that. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There are -- there are -- 10 MR. COLEMAN: For the outside -- for the county 11 residents, you'd like -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The county residents would have 13 a different billing structure -- or residents who live outside 14 of the city limits would have a different billing structure, 15 potentially, than those that live inside the city limits. And 16 I think that is -- is doable. It's justifiable, and I think 17 it would bring in additional revenue to the County. 18 MR. COLEMAN: And the whole point would be that for 19 those outside the city limits, there would be more aggressive 20 billing? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think there is -- as I 22 understand it right now, there are -- there are not bills for 23 dry runs. Saying there's one reason I know that went up; 24 there's -- I think the Chief and I had a number of e-mails 25 that went back and forth about a run out into Falling Water, 8-9-06 jcc 20 1 and there was no transport at the end of all that, and it 2 was -- a lot of time was eaten up by that crew. I think that 3 resident should have been billed. I mean, I -- you know, and 4 not just -- that one person happened to be a friend of mine, 5 but, I mean, I think that there -- if you're -- if they -- if 6 someone calls 9-1-1, we should try to bill for that -- that 7 service. I understand that there are -- you get issues that 8 they won't do it. If -- you know, if you're -- if, you know, 9 Carl lives next door to me and Carl calls 'cause he thinks I 10 need an EMS -- and I understand that there are some problems, 11 but there are also times when I think you can collect. On the 12 interstate issue, from what I -- my understanding is, that a 13 lot -- same thing happens on those. Sometimes they're 14 refused. I mean, I think you almost have to send out a unit 15 on a wreck on the interstate because of the potential 16 problems, but if there's no transport, it's a dry run right 17 now. And my understanding is that most auto insurance will 18 pick up for that; they will pay that out of their -- the 19 person's who's responsible for that accident. 20 MR. COLEMAN: Jonathan, I almost think that if it's 21 appropriate to bill outside residents in that manner, it would 22 be -- it would be appropriate to bill city residents in that 23 manner, too. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. 25 MR. COLEMAN: And we just need to work out -- 8-9-06 jcc 21 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I agree with you. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I agree. 3 MR. COLEMAN: We need to work out what is 4 appropriate to bill, and all come together and do that. 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: For anybody who may not be 6 informed about the scope of the issue, the difference between 7 costs and revenues on EMS are 433,000 a year. But there are 8 other counties where they're -- where the revenues cover the 9 costs of the EMS. And the solution that -- that Commissioner 10 Letz is discussing is -- is a compromise solution that would 11 work, and I would support it. But I -- I wonder, why not just 12 solve the whole problem by adjusting the rate schedule to 13 where revenues meet costs? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- and the only reason I 15 brought this up to the county only is there was a reluctance 16 last year from the City to do it when we had these same 17 discussions. And it was -- and it goes everything from 18 looking at -- I mean, as I understand it -- again, I hope the 19 Chief will correct me if I'm wrong on these, or our budget 20 guru from the City -- that a lot of the -- the runs and 21 transports are billed at the Medicare rate. Well, there's a 22 lot of counties that don't bill for EMS services -- that do 23 not bill at the Medicare rate; they bill at a higher rate from 24 you. If you accept that amount -- I didn't go and check it, 25 but there are times for some transports -- you know, I'm told 8-9-06 jcc 22 1 that you can collect additional funds through private 2 insurance or through the individual. So -- and I would really 3 like to -- I think we just need to be a lot more aggressive. 4 Obviously, I can't speak for the, you know, City Council, 5 so -- this didn't go anywhere last year, so my proposal this 6 year is, well, okay, if the City doesn't want to do it for 7 residents of the -- within the city limits, you know, I 8 understand that, but those that live outside, I think the 9 County should have the prerogative to set a billing structure. 10 And I -- I don't see that it's real hard. Maybe there's a 11 hurdle in the billing system that I don't understand, but it 12 doesn't seem it should be that difficult. 13 MR. COLEMAN: Was this potentially an issue that 14 General Schellhase addressed in his review of the EMS? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To a degree. And on the -- I 16 believe the Medicare issue -- he's here. I believe that they 17 pretty much felt that the -- the City's way of doing it makes 18 sense. Isn't that pretty much correct? 19 MR. SCHELLHASE: Yes. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On the Medicare side. But I 21 don't know that they addressed the dry runs and -- and billing 22 runs to the interstate for out-of-county residents at 23 different rates. I don't know that they looked into that 24 detail. I don't know. I'm just not sure. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One of the issues is dry 8-9-06 jcc 23 1 runs. An ambulance is dispatched to a home or to pick up 2 somebody, and all of a sudden, the guy feels better and he 3 doesn't want to get in the ambulance. Well, the costs are 4 there, but the revenue didn't come. Why not? For example. 5 MR. COLEMAN: And I agree on the standard industry 6 basis. I think we should bill for all that we can, and should 7 be willing to help defray that cost. But I think it should be 8 on a standard industry basis, whatever that is, and I'm not 9 sure. I don't know. 10 MR. MEEK: Is that correct? We bill all of our runs 11 at the Medicare rate; is that correct? 12 MR. HOLLOWAY: Can I respond? 13 MR. HOFMANN: Sure. 14 MR. HOLLOWAY: That is incorrect. We bill the same 15 -- we bill -- our base rate is three -- 380, plus whatever the 16 other charges are. Medicare only pays about 280. We don't 17 base it on what Medicare is paying. We -- you know, we charge 18 everybody, you know, whatever it is. As far as the dry runs, 19 we charge a response fee, and it's anywhere from $55 to $100. 20 So, we do charge those people. I mean, it's not -- it barely 21 covers our costs, but we do charge those people. Now, the 22 interstate, if we make a call out on the interstate and it's 23 someone that's not local, we don't charge that -- that fee. 24 We do charge -- if we pick them up and transport them, we do 25 charge them for that. Part of the problem with that is, you 8-9-06 jcc 24 1 know, a lot of them live out of state, and we'd have a 2 difficult time collecting from them. But, yeah, we do charge, 3 and it's not at the Medicaid -- Medicare rate. Now, the 4 problem with increasing the rates for the county residents, if 5 they're on Medicare, we're only going to collect what Medicare 6 allows. It doesn't matter if we charge them $5,000; 7 Medicare's only going to pay a certain amount of money. And 8 we're only able to collect -- what Medicare does is they -- 9 they only -- if they approve the 285, then they will pay 10 80 percent of that, and we can go after the patients for that 11 20 percent, but not anything over that. And our hands are 12 pretty much tied as far as we accept Medicare. And not only 13 -- I don't want to put you on the spot, Mr. Nicholson, but I'd 14 like to know what counties are -- their EMS operation is 15 breaking even with the revenues, because Medicare is killing 16 everybody I know. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 18 MR. HOLLOWAY: Really, I'd like to have a list of 19 that and find out how they're doing it. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bandera County -- Kerr County's 21 Auditor is also for them. He says just recently, they went 22 negative; they've been making in the black until very 23 recently. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'd like to see how they do that, 25 because that would be -- 8-9-06 jcc 25 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Chief, you said a base run 2 is $380; is that correct? 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that fee is established 5 by reason of your assessment of costs and whatever, whatever? 6 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that's a fee that's an 8 arbitrary fee that's been set based on the cost per run in the 9 city; is that correct? 10 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's the base. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And then Medicare then takes 12 a look at this number and says, "We'll pay 'X' of that 13 amount"? 14 MR. HOLLOWAY: No, Medicare has a set rate that 15 they'll -- for Kerr County that they'll pay right now, and 16 it's -- I believe it's 280. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, is it a rate based on 18 county or region or state or what? 19 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's -- 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Zip code. 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: On the zip code. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon? 23 MR. HOLLOWAY: On the zip code. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yep. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 8-9-06 jcc 26 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Chief, which -- our base 2 rate's $380? 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: No, I think it's $389, -- 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: That's close enough. 5 MR. HOLLOWAY: -- right in that area. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What would that rate have 7 to increase to? Just guess. 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well -- 9 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: To cover all the costs. 10 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, last year, we -- was it last 11 year? We increased our rates 300 percent. And the -- to try 12 to get even. And the problem with that is, is you can't 13 really get even, because Medicare disalloweds just keeps 14 getting higher. And then we figure that if we raise the rates 15 that much, then we're going to have people that won't pay. 16 The noncollectables will increase. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Do you have a feel for what 18 percent of your runs are for Medicare-eligible people? 19 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yeah, I think it's -- 20 MR. MALONEY: 70. 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: -- 70 percent. 22 MR. COLEMAN: Chief, sounds like there's a 23 discrepancy from what it costs versus what Medicare will 24 reimburse. Is there a way to influence Medicare? Relative -- 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, they look at your history, and 8-9-06 jcc 27 1 they -- in fact, I just read in the paper this morning, 2 they're reducing doctors' -- the amount of money they're going 3 to pay doctors 5 percent, so I'm not sure what they're going 4 to do with us, but it's -- we -- they look at a 5-year -- 5 5-year? 6 MR. MALONEY: Yes. 7 MR. HOLLOWAY: They look at five years, and then 8 they base what your expenses are, and then they look at that. 9 But it -- it only goes up just a fraction. 10 MR. COLEMAN: So, they're forcing a subsidy. 11 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Chief, the other thing -- this 13 is just for your information, and I don't know if you've heard 14 this or not. I've also been told that there is some 15 argument -- and it probably will end up in litigation at some 16 point; you may just want to watch -- that the -- on the 17 Medicare, the 80 percent that they pay, that they're filing 18 suit somewhere, I can't remember which county in Texas, saying 19 that the tax revenue being collected, being that the taxes 20 that are paid are already -- that it's already included in the 21 -- I mean, it's that the residents are also paying, because 22 it's tax revenue. They're already subsidizing the EMS system; 23 therefore, Medicare should reimburse 100 percent. Because, I 24 mean, there's already that 20 percent already in there. Don't 25 know where that'll go, but that will certainly -- pretty big 8-9-06 jcc 28 1 chunk of change if that works out. You might want to monitor 2 how that works. 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: I think one of the problems that we 4 may face is that our government subsidy is pretty small 5 compared to the amount of -- of our overall expense. I mean, 6 our budget is over $2 million. County subsidizing, if we -- 7 this year will be about $450,000. 8 MR. HOFMANN: City and county. 9 MR. HOLLOWAY: City and county government. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Other medical service 11 providers are not losing money. They're -- they make a 12 profit. And many of them do not accept Medicare because they 13 can't make a profit if they accept Medicare. Is that a 14 solution? 15 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, I would think it would be a 16 real problem here, because a lot of those Medicare patients 17 will be nonpaid. If we don't -- if we don't accept Medicare, 18 then those -- some -- a lot of those people that are on 19 Medicare will not pay anything. And it's kind of hard to 20 throw somebody in jail because you took them to the hospital. 21 It's not like, you know, a speeding ticket or something like 22 that. 23 MR. COLEMAN: Don't a lot of Medicare patients have 24 supplemental insurance? Do you not find that? 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: We can't collect -- we can't collect 8-9-06 jcc 29 1 that. 2 MR. COLEMAN: Why is that? 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's just the Medicare rules. A 4 lot of them do have supplemental, and that supplemental pays 5 for that 20 percent that Medicare doesn't pay. 6 MR. GROSS: How do we handle billing on frequent 7 destinations like La Hacienda and Starlite? 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: We just bill them, and they are 9 pretty good at paying. 10 MR. GROSS: Do they pay? 11 MR. HOLLOWAY: We don't have a lot of trouble in 12 those areas. And Medicare disalloweds is about $600,000 each 13 year, and then our non-pay is about 300, isn't it? 14 MR. MALONEY: Yes, sir. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- you know, my whole 16 point, I just really would like to look at it. I mean, other 17 counties and other EMS systems are billing differently than 18 City of Kerrville bills, as -- working with the County or as 19 an agent for the County, whatever you want to say. I just 20 really would like to look at it. I'd like to have, you 21 know -- you know, one of the companies I'm sure they've heard 22 of is Alexander Associates, who's a collection agency in San 23 Antonio. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: Right. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They have ideas. 8-9-06 jcc 30 1 MR. HOLLOWAY: We've dealt -- we've talked to them, 2 and they want -- 20 percent? Or 15 percent? 3 MR. MALONEY: I believe 10 to 15. 4 MR. HOLLOWAY: 10 or 15 percent of what they 5 collect. And we felt like, based that information and the 6 information they said that they could increase our collection 7 rate by, we felt like we wouldn't be making any ground. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's just a -- I mean, I 9 think that there's -- I just hope to get a willingness to look 10 at this issue. And if the County wants to -- to have a 11 different structure, I don't understand why the City would 12 object to that. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Back to the original request 14 of dealing with the budget here today, I agree with 15 Commissioner Letz. I don't -- I don't have much of a problem. 16 I mean, I -- your service is excellent. 17 MR. HOLLOWAY: Thank you. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To our community. And I 19 understand the cost; it costs a lot of money to do that. So, 20 I'm certainly going to support the increase. This time. Next 21 year, I'm going to kill you. (Laughter.) 22 MR. HOLLOWAY: Wait -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You're losing your only 24 confidante. 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: Wait two years, Buster, until do you 8-9-06 jcc 31 1 that. 2 MR. MEEK: Raymond, I have a question. 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir? 4 MR. MEEK: It's really hard to get a handle on 5 your -- I'm sure, on your true cost, run cost, but how close 6 do you think 380 is to -- I mean, if you were to collect it, 7 would that cover your cost? What do you think your true cost 8 on an average run is? And don't worry -- don't worry about 9 the collection yet. 10 MR. HOLLOWAY: I don't think we've actually sat down 11 and figured that in a while. 12 MR. MEEK: To roll that crew and that equipment on 13 an average run, what is the marginal cost of that run? 14 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, based on our budget, you 15 could -- it's probably about $500 or $600, depending on the 16 type of call. 17 MR. HOFMANN: And therein lies the big part of the 18 issue here that, so far, I don't think it's been -- I don't 19 think it's been discussed. There's -- there's a -- so far in 20 this meeting, at least -- undiscussed philosophical or policy 21 question about the extent to which you want the people who 22 effect the service to cover the cost of the service. And I 23 won't sit here and make this argument, because perhaps it's 24 not my argument to make, but it is true that the argument 25 could be made for an emergency response service like this one, 8-9-06 jcc 32 1 similar to fire, similar to even police, which no one argues 2 should be fee-based, and very few people argue, although it's 3 out there, that fire protection ought to be fee-based. You 4 have those systems in place, and you have the capacity in 5 place to respond to people, whether or not everybody in the 6 county's going to call or the city's going to call for that 7 service. You -- and an argument could be made that you don't 8 develop a structure for paying for service like EMS that 9 counts on the people who call the EMS to pay for it. Because 10 even if you go through an entire year and you live out in 11 Hunt, and you never call for an ambulance, you still benefit, 12 and we need to have a -- we need to have the system capacity 13 in place to be able to serve you, whether you call or not. 14 And I think that's important. 15 And I think, back to Mr. Meek's point, that's why, 16 if you were to just simply look at the EMS budget and divide 17 it by the number of runs or whatever, you're going to get a 18 per-run cost that's going to be significantly higher than 19 $380. The question is, does the guy you're going out and 20 responding to, does he need to pay for all the capital and 21 facility long-term costs necessary to run that system? I 22 would venture that most communities that run an EMS system are 23 going to say no. And, certainly, almost every community that 24 runs a fire system is going to say no, and the -- I think it's 25 appropriate that the general government pay for a portion of 8-9-06 jcc 33 1 the cost of running a quality EMS service. Because -- how 2 much did we increase the rates last year Raymond? What 3 percentage? 4 MR. HOLLOWAY: Last year, none. 5 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. And the year before? 6 MR. HOLLOWAY: 10 percent. 7 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. We can increase rates. There's 8 a diminishing return that you're going to get from increasing 9 rates. You need to struggle with, I think, the -- the 10 philosophical question about the extent to which you want to 11 put that additional burden on the people who call for it. Is 12 it fair? Is it justifiable that the general government pay 13 for a portion of that service? And I think most communities 14 answer that question with a yes. The question is, what's the 15 right balance? And if the County Commissioners are asking us 16 to continue to be more aggressive and look under every rock 17 that maybe we haven't fully kicked over -- can we be more 18 aggressive with an out-of-state driver on Interstate 10? 19 Sure. We're more than happy to look at that. When I was in 20 Alvin, we ran an EMS service, and we significantly were able 21 to turn things around from a revenue to expense standpoint. 22 We didn't break even. By looking at one of those collection 23 agencies -- and if we've looked at that collection agency idea 24 before and the math didn't work, well, okay, maybe we just 25 didn't push hard enough. And if the City Council would like 8-9-06 jcc 34 1 for us to look at that again and come back with some real 2 numbers, we're happy to do that. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Let me follow up on that, 4 please. It's my understanding that when the City took over 5 the EMS responsibility from the private contractor -- I don't 6 know how many years ago that was. 7 MR. HOLLOWAY: 1994. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: '94? 9 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir. 10 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. The strategy then 11 was that rates for service would be set at a level that would 12 pay for the service, and that happened. And, gradually, we 13 failed to keep up that rate schedule to account for increasing 14 costs, capital and operating, till today we've fallen behind 15 $433,000 a year. Ten years from now, that'll be $5 million 16 that we fall behind -- an additional $5 million that we've 17 fallen behind. If the strategy was good in '94, why is it not 18 good in '06? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't -- I mean, I -- I really 20 agree with the City Manager on a lot of this. I mean, I 21 understand the strategy. I think that there is a value and 22 all taxpayers should pay to have a first-class EMS system, as 23 in a fire system. But I also think that you need to be as 24 aggressive as you possibly can to make it come as close to 25 breaking even as possible. I don't -- you know, if we, as a 8-9-06 jcc 35 1 government or elected officials, wanted -- you know, said our 2 primary concern was to break even, then I think you privatize 3 and reduce your quality of service, and I don't think that's 4 what the committee has recommended or the public wants. So, I 5 think there's a balance. I think we want to keep the 6 first-class service. That's going to cost a lot of money, and 7 it's probably going to be a subsidy. But I think that you 8 need to be as -- as absolutely aggressive as possible on the 9 collections side, on the -- the rates. I mean, the reality is 10 that insurance of one kind or another, whether it be Medicare 11 or private, is paying this cost, and we need to maximize the 12 revenue that comes back from that whatever way we can. And I 13 don't think that we'll break even, but I think we can reduce 14 the subsidy. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I had accepted the fact that the 16 quality EMS service is going to have some governmental 17 subsidy, but I don't think that the government should 18 subsidize the actual users of the system. Let me explain what 19 I mean by that. Medicare allowances are going to be Medicare 20 allowances. Doesn't make any difference whether you charge 21 what they allow or twice what they charge or five times what 22 they charge. But if your actual cost is $600, for example, 23 and the actual user of that system is only being charged $380, 24 I think your rate's too low. I think that user ought to be 25 charged not less than the actual cost to serve that -- that 8-9-06 jcc 36 1 user. Now, even with that, you're going to have a shortfall, 2 and those that don't use the service are paying for the 3 availability of having that service available. But I 4 certainly don't think that a user of the system ought to be 5 subsidized, because they're getting the benefit of that 6 service, and if your actual cost is a given figure, your base 7 charge should be no less than that, irrespective of whether 8 it's Medicare, no Medicare, or anything else. And that 9 will -- that will, I think, decrease this gap that much of the 10 subsidy has to apply to. 11 MR. MEEK: I would weigh in -- 12 MR. GROSS: I've worked several hundred EMS calls in 13 Center Point, and you have a lot of very, very poor people out 14 there. I don't know what the -- what their average income is, 15 but you could charge them whatever you want to charge them; 16 you're not going to get it. And I would like to say that in 17 1990, if you had an EMS emergency in this county, you probably 18 got basically a van and a cot. And, you know, with these guys 19 rolling in the last 10 years, EMS has changed in Kerrville 20 dramatically. And, by the way, if you ever have heart 21 problems, you'll be better off with a paramedic than a 22 surgeon. They know what they're doing. So, it's not just a 23 box with a cot in it. It's sophisticated equipment and 24 sophisticated training. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: The level of service is -- is superb. 8-9-06 jcc 37 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think anyone has said we 2 should reduce service. I think we should just look at our -- 3 the cost of it. There's a lot of residents, you're right, 4 that cannot afford it, but there's also a lot of people that 5 live in Comanche Trace that can afford it. And I think that 6 they should bill -- you know, and we're going to subsidize the 7 poor that can't afford it; that's a given. But we should try 8 to collect from those who can afford it. That's all I'm 9 saying. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With respect to subsidy 11 versus pay, I have a question. An individual is picked up by 12 9-1-1 -- by an EMS box, and the nature of the person's problem 13 results in them being transported by helicopter to San 14 Antonio. Who gets the bill and who subsidizes the payment for 15 the helicopter to San Antonio? 16 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, there's actually -- they get 17 two bills. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon? 19 MR. HOLLOWAY: They'll get two bills. They'll get 20 one from us. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. HOLLOWAY: And depending if we transport that 23 patient from where they're injured to a landing site, we get 24 mileage, plus whatever equipment we use. But then they'll 25 also get a bill for the helicopter taking them to San Antonio. 8-9-06 jcc 38 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And is there a subsidy that 2 we pick up for that? 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: Not for the helicopter. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: User pays, right? 5 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. That's the only point 7 I want to make. 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: One thing I forgot to talk about on 9 our base rate, is there is a mileage charge to that, too. We 10 charge mileage on top of our base rate, and depending on how 11 far out we are. And that's a loaded mile, though. I mean, we 12 went all the way out to Falling Waters and didn't transport 13 that person, so we weren't able to charge them for that 14 mileage, but we did charge them a -- a trans -- I mean, a fee. 15 MR. MEEK: I'd like to say something. Perhaps that 16 mileage charge, you could look at raising that. That's one 17 thing. What I was really wanting to say was, I believe 18 there's a lot of doctor's offices that limit their Medicare -- 19 Medicaid patients -- or Medicare patients, because they, quite 20 frankly, aren't making money off of the Medicare patients. We 21 can't limit our Medicare patients. But that doctor is 22 subsidizing -- actually, the patients who are not on Medicare 23 are subsidizing the ones who are. And I would -- I wouldn't 24 limit looking at the price we charge to people who have -- who 25 are not on Medicare to -- I mean, if the government's going to 8-9-06 jcc 39 1 be subsidizing, I don't see anything wrong with the ones who 2 are able to pay to also subsidize. I think that should be in 3 the mix, too. 4 MR. COLEMAN: Paul, to answer your question a while 5 ago, I -- I, as one, would support us looking at it a little 6 more close in terms of collection agencies and in terms of any 7 other cost savings that -- or billing increases we can do. 8 MR. HOFMANN: Great. 9 MAYOR SMITH: Well, the City doesn't enjoy having 10 indebtedness from our users of our service, but we will always 11 have people that don't have any insurance or can't afford it, 12 so we'll always have that debt. Also, in the last 12 years, 13 Medicare has changed their position. Medicare used to cover 14 nearly everything, and they're covering less and less and 15 less, and that will probably continue. But if there's any 16 better way of collecting this money, it would be great. You 17 know, I'd like to encourage people to have full medical 18 insurance and Medicare supplement and all that, but that's in 19 an ideal world, and we don't live in an ideal world. But if 20 there is some things that we can do, that Jonathan might 21 have -- or anybody has a better way of -- of doing it, I'm 22 sure the City Manager and I'm sure Raymond would -- would 23 enjoy hearing that information. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: We've looked at those agencies. 25 We'll look again. 8-9-06 jcc 40 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One last -- last comment. 2 Judge, I'm asking you, 'cause I don't see our Auditor here. 3 Indigent patients, those are that are -- you know, which is a 4 large number for the County; we have to pay almost $800,000 a 5 year for indigent health care. Does EMS -- does that get 6 rolled into that -- that mix? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. Yeah, that -- if -- once they 8 qualify under the indigent health care program, any reasonable 9 and necessary medical costs get -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are we double-paying, so to 11 speak, for the county? Is the County -- is the County -- an 12 EMS transport -- and I'm not really -- you know, I'm just -- 13 this just came up; I really haven't thought this through. But 14 say there's an indigent patient anywhere, city or county. The 15 County's going to pay for that, whatever the billing rate is. 16 Which is -- you know, we're -- given the fact, you know, 17 8 percent of our budget's going to go to indigent health care, 18 regardless. If we're paying it, we pay it to the City? And 19 they get -- 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Whoever the provider is gets paid. 21 But my simple answer to your question, Commissioner, would be 22 no, I don't think so, because what we're looking at funding is 23 what's not paid, the difference here that's not collected in 24 the way of service. I can see why you'd have that question in 25 your mind, but I think the simple answer is no, we're probably 8-9-06 jcc 41 1 not. Because -- 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Darn. 3 MR. HOFMANN: Good try. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nice try. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good try, Jon. 6 MR. MEEK: Does that mean if someone doesn't pay 7 their EMS bill, y'all will? Is that what that says? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I know that our indigent 9 health care is a pretty big bill every month. 10 MR. MEEK: That's a good solution. That solved the 11 problem, Jon. I appreciate that. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, as soon as we get to 13 8 percent, at least we get some state money coming in. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Simply put, we're funding 15 our own shortfall, right? 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Banik's trying to keep a record 17 here, and I hope we'd respect that. What we are doing, 18 Commissioner, is that what would otherwise be uncollected or 19 unfunded, and which would then have to be dealt with jointly 20 by these two bodies, we're picking up a portion of that, and 21 then going and picking up half of -- half of the balance. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: So, disproportionate, that's probably 24 true. But we're -- what we're doing is paying -- you may want 25 to look at it as three-fourths, but that's -- I don't see it 8-9-06 jcc 42 1 as a payment twice. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, okay. Not three-fourths 3 -- anyway, I don't know how you -- it would be very difficult 4 to calculate. I just thought I'd bring it up. I always like 5 to bring up indigent health care in public so the taxpayers 6 understand how much money this -- they are paying, whether 7 they live in the city or the county, for indigent health care, 8 which is -- for us right now is about 800,000 a year. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Our -- our proposed budget going into 10 this next year is, I think, between 950 -- 935 and 950, in 11 that range. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 950,000, almost a million 13 dollars a year going for indigent health care in this county. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I just have one quick 16 question, Judge. Is the -- on your document that you sent to 17 us, you talk about the County share on EMS and the City's 18 share. The County share is, what, about 30,000 greater than 19 the City's. Is that due to the First Responder costs being 20 rolled in? 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: All that's rolled into this figure 22 this year. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, okay, that difference 24 would be First Responder cost? 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes. 8-9-06 jcc 43 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 2 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's a big portion of that, 'cause 3 it's all -- all of the -- last year it was all broken out in 4 different costs, and this year it's all -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's why I asked. 6 MR. HOFMANN: Oh, now -- right. Sorry, yes, sir. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That includes -- 8 MR. HOFMANN: It's everything. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: -- First Responders, First Responder 10 expenses and training, and Medical Director. 11 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's correct. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: That's all rolled into that one 13 figure. 14 MR. HOLLOWAY: And I believe also rent on the EMS 15 building. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 17 MR. HOLLOWAY: And rent on the EMS building, your 18 portion of that. 19 MR. HOFMANN: Right. And we owe you a -- 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 21 MR. HOFMANN: -- an interlocal agreement that we'll 22 bring by the City Council, then you, by the end of the fiscal 23 year that'll specify all that. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Are we through with the EMS 25 issue for now? 8-9-06 jcc 44 1 MR. BOCK: Judge, I'm going to go back to the issue 2 Mr. Letz brought about the billing. Are you satisfied with 3 what we're -- what we're going to do? 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I just would -- 5 MR. BOCK: I mean, in further looking into it? I 6 just want to make sure that -- 'cause I kind of see what 7 you're saying, and maybe there's a way this year to look at it 8 and see -- if we have a run, we could possibly supply you guys 9 with the county runs, and you could look at that and say, what 10 could we possibly go get above and beyond, maybe, or something 11 like that. Or is it satisfactory, then? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think even -- I mean, 13 satisfactory. I think it's one of these things -- I hate to 14 come out of these meetings and just overburden -- just have a 15 whole bunch of committees studying things. You know, I think 16 all we're doing is creating a lot of busy work. I'd really 17 rather, you know, rely on -- the City Manager said he'll look 18 at it to see if there are ways we can be more aggressive in 19 our billing, and at some point in the coming months, coming 20 back and say yes, no, whatever. And I'll be glad to -- if he 21 wants to talk to me about it, I can mention who I've talked 22 to, you know, where a lot of my thoughts are coming from. 23 MR. HOFMANN: Be happy to. 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: Can I say one more thing? Then I'll 25 shut up, unless y'all have another question. Part of the 8-9-06 jcc 45 1 reason Bandera can -- their expenses are so much lower is 2 they're almost all volunteer. They have a few paid people, 3 and that reduces the cost a whole lot. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Quite a bit. 5 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes. So that -- you know. 6 MR. MEEK: So, that was your suggestion? 7 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, depends on what quality of 8 service you want, but some of the volunteer departments, you 9 know, they can come closer to breaking even than the paid, 10 probably. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Are we through kicking around 12 EMS for a while? 13 MAYOR SMITH: One thing. My brother was involved in 14 an accident. The helicopter ride from Doss to San Antonio was 15 about $9,000. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Cost of fuel's up. 17 MAYOR SMITH: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Mayor, he didn't ask in 19 advance how much it cost. 20 MAYOR SMITH: No, sure didn't. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: When I'm out there on 22 Shoemaker Crossing bleeding, I don't call 9-1-1 and say, "How 23 much does it cost for an ambulance ride to the hospital? And, 24 oh, by the way, do you take Medicare?" And when you -- when 25 you transport me, and you did, if my insurance company doesn't 8-9-06 jcc 46 1 pay, I pay. 2 MAYOR SMITH: Yeah. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And there's a whole lot 4 more like me out there that will pay you three times 380 to be 5 transported to the hospital. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, next subject. Where are we 7 going, gentlemen? 8 MAYOR SMITH: What do you want to go to next? 9 MR. HOFMANN: Me? Want to talk about fire, since 10 we're on public safety? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a couple of questions. 13 Did you say fire contract? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. HOFMANN: Yes, sir. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I have a couple of questions. 17 I will -- I will probably -- just up front here, I'll probably 18 not vote to approve the increase in that contract, because I 19 don't see -- I understand your theories of the reasons we 20 should, but I -- I disagree with them. I think us having a 21 contract and you providing a service, and your thinking is -- 22 is that you need to build new fire stations and new people, 23 you know, in the future city of Kerrville and all that. I 24 understand that. But I -- all I want the County to do is pay 25 for the service that we receive. And I kind of equate it to, 8-9-06 jcc 47 1 if we contract with the City to pick up your dead animals, 2 well, we're thinking about building a new animal facility, and 3 we also need to fix the road out by Mo Ranch, and we'd like 4 for y'all to pay for that too. So, it's just -- you know, the 5 thing doesn't work. But I want to talk about the contract 6 just for a second, one portion of the contract, where we're 7 talking about structure fires. And, Raymond, this is a 8 question for you. In the contract, it says that -- you know, 9 it talks about the volunteer fire department responding in 10 four minutes, and then the City will go to -- be dispatched to 11 the fire. And the City -- and here is a quote -- the City 12 will send a fire truck. 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's correct. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, are we talking about a 15 little fire? What kind of fire truck? 16 MR. HOLLOWAY: We only have one kind of fire truck, 17 and it's a pumper. I'm not talking about the brush truck. 18 We're talking about our pumper, whatever pumper we have in the 19 city limits. You know, it'll pump 1,500 gallons of water a 20 minute, same thing we use inside the city limits. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And then how much -- how much 22 water does it carry? 23 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, our trucks carry about 24 700 gallons of water. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, if you pulled up to a 8-9-06 jcc 48 1 structure fire with 700 gallons a minute, with a truck that'll 2 pump 1,500 -- 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, it's capable of pumping that 4 much. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Excuse me? 6 MR. HOLLOWAY: It's capable of pumping that much. 7 When we're in the county where there's very limited water, if 8 we're in an area that has very limited water, our guys are 9 trained to not -- you know, that's if you use all the 10 discharges. They'll probably use two preconnect inch and 11 three-quarter lines, and they'll watch the amount of flow best 12 they can until the volunteer department or a county tanker or 13 something there can bring us more water. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. If -- if -- see, I'm 15 concerned about that part. If somebody shows up to help. So, 16 theoretically, you could pull up there and squirt water for 30 17 seconds, and you're through. 18 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, it would take a little longer 19 than that, but you're right. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: 35 seconds. 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: If we don't have any water -- excuse 22 me -- we'd have to go to whatever the nearest water supply 23 would be to get more water. But we -- we've got a pretty good 24 relationship with the volunteer departments, and, you know, 25 when we roll up, they -- they know -- and they also need 8-9-06 jcc 49 1 water. So that, you know -- 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand. 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: -- we have a pretty good supply of 4 water coming. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I understand that. But, you 6 know, I think about these things, and I think about the 7 possibility of paying this kind of money for a fire truck to 8 spend a possibility of 30 seconds or a minute at a fire, and 9 then you'd no longer have anything to do. It just -- what I'd 10 like to see is, I'd like to see this agreement -- this 11 contract rewritten, and let's specify what type of fire truck, 12 how many gallons of water and how many people. Let's see. 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: Generally, three people on that 14 truck. A lot of times we send a brush truck also with 15 additional people, depending on the situation, whether we -- 16 they need help out there or not. And -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Buster, are you going to read 18 the paragraph that's contradicting? 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I'm about to talk about it 20 here. I don't know that I want -- yeah, I am, as a matter of 21 fact. Let's talk about the grass fire part of the contract. 22 Raymond and I have talked prior to this meeting. We talked 23 about this paragraph in here, and neither one of us can 24 believe what we're reading. 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: I can explain why that happened. 8-9-06 jcc 50 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We want to hear it. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Read it. 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: Read it. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We want you to do that, if 5 you don't mind. Item B, Grass Fire. "The City shall not 6 respond to a call or report of a fire that predominantly 7 involves grass and other vegetation unless a call for help is 8 made by the fire department located in the area of the fire. 9 In the event the City receives a call of this type, the City 10 shall relay the call to the appropriate fire department in the 11 county." The way I am reading that is, Center Point has a big 12 brush fire, and they call you for help. What this says is 13 that you're going to call them right back and tell them they 14 have a fire. (Laughter.) 15 MR. HOLLOWAY: I know. That's exactly what that -- 16 or pretty close to what that says. It wasn't the intent -- 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's what it says. 18 MR. HOLLOWAY: That wasn't the intent of that. The 19 intent of that -- and that was in there before I took over. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I know that. 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: And the intent of that was that if 22 someone calls from that area -- say, like, you're driving by 23 and you call and say, "Hey, there's a big brush fire in Center 24 Point." 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh. 8-9-06 jcc 51 1 MR. HOLLOWAY: Then the dispatcher will call the 2 Center Point Volunteer Fire Department and ask -- and tell 3 them, and if it is a brush fire, out of control, and they need 4 our assistance, we'll go. The problem -- the problem was that 5 someone driving down the interstate or down the highway -- and 6 it may be a controlled burn, so we wouldn't respond until we 7 found out it was out of control. That was the -- I believe 8 the intent of that. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, except that -- 10 MR. HOLLOWAY: But I agree, that needs to be 11 changed. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Except that it says that a 13 call for help is made by the fire department located in that 14 area. 15 MR. HOLLOWAY: I agree. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The fire department, not 17 somebody driving down the road. This whole thing needs to be 18 rewritten. 19 MR. HOLLOWAY: And I don't have a -- in fact, I 20 would like to -- to write that to where it spells out a little 21 bit better what the responses would be. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Chief, do your trucks have 23 drafting capability? 24 MR. HOLLOWAY: The brush truck's the only one that 25 does. No, sir. 8-9-06 jcc 52 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Pardon? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I mean, overall -- I mean, I 3 agree with Commissioner Baldwin on the standpoint of the 4 increase. I'm -- that doesn't make sense to me. And I 5 think -- and part of the issue is -- and I think Mr. Hoffman's 6 aware of, I think, where we are a little bit, 'cause we met 7 before in Commissioners Court on this topic -- is that if 8 you're going to look at a capacity, you know, to fight fire, 9 and that's what I think Mr. Hofmann was doing, I think you 10 have to put into that mix the total budget for every volunteer 11 fire department in the county, because there are -- whether -- 12 you know, and I think we also probably need to look at the 13 mutual aid agreements and tighten that up a little bit. My 14 understanding from the fire departments' point of view -- the 15 volunteer fire departments' point of view, they feel by law 16 that exists, whether it's in writing or not. They're going to 17 say there is an obligation by law for the volunteer fire 18 departments to go into the city if there's a need, and 19 vice-versa. So -- but it probably doesn't hurt to put that in 20 writing, but I think that the -- and history shows that where 21 there's an emergency, from a fire standpoint, the City 22 responds into the county with a lot more than a pumper truck. 23 And if there is a need for the volunteer fire departments to 24 come into the city, history shows that they will do that en 25 masse. 8-9-06 jcc 53 1 So, I think that the -- you know, if you're going to 2 look at capacity and building for the whole structure, you 3 can't look at the -- build the City's fire department on the 4 county capacity without taking all the volunteer fire 5 departments into -- into that mix and figuring -- I don't know 6 how do you that. But I think that -- I mean, I know that the 7 -- and then it even gets more complicated. You have Comfort 8 in Kendall County, but they respond and they're primary in a 9 huge part of eastern Kerr County. But the -- I mean, I know 10 that Ingram, the Comfort and the Hunt fire departments, they 11 probably have as many trucks as Kerrville does. I mean, they 12 have, I think, five or six trucks in Comfort. I know Hunt's 13 got a couple of new ones. Ingram has a whole -- you know, a 14 lot. So, I think there's a huge firefighting capacity in Kerr 15 County, which is great. But I think if we're going to look at 16 the approach that Mr. Hofmann wants to look at, I think you 17 have to include all those volunteer fire departments with it. 18 And at this point, I mean, I don't know if we have the time to 19 do that kind of analysis. 20 I'd like to see the contract amount stay where it 21 is, look at the contracts and have some discussions throughout 22 the year, and next -- you know, early next budget year, look 23 at if adjustments needs to be made, how we look at it. 24 Because the County does fund all the volunteer fire 25 departments to another hundred-some thousand dollars a year, 8-9-06 jcc 54 1 and that needs to be all included, I think. So, I don't have 2 a problem looking at it, but I don't think we have enough 3 information to do it this year. 4 MAYOR SMITH: Let me ask a question about ISO 5 ratings. Does -- the people in the county, outside the city, 6 do they get a more favorable ISO rating -- insurance rating by 7 having a manned fire department available to go out into the 8 area? That's a -- the ISO rating has a heck of an impact on 9 your -- the insurance that people pay, and I was just 10 wondering if there is an insurance advantage, an ISO rating 11 advantage, having a staffed fire department available to go 12 into the county. Do you know anything about that? 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir. They do get a discount, 14 especially the people in the Kerrville South area, because 15 we're the first responders into that area. I think all the 16 homeowners in the ETJ, just in the surrounding area, because 17 we have a contract to run into that area, they get -- I think 18 they're a 9 instead of maybe a 10. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But there's also, in that -- in 20 the discounted area, there are things that a lot of people in 21 the county do, such as most -- almost all water tanks now, 22 which almost every resident in the county has, has a 23 fire-threaded hookup, which gives you a discount, too. I'm 24 not sure if that discount's the same as the other discount. 25 MR. HOLLOWAY: I think it's part of it. 8-9-06 jcc 55 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But there's -- you know, there 2 are, you know, discounts that county residents can get in lieu 3 of having a manned fire department. 4 MAYOR SMITH: Well, I know adding this Fire Station 5 Number 4, which we're putting in our budget, will change the 6 ISO rating down, and nearly every -- every homeowner in the 7 city will save probably -- 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, if it's reduced -- if it's 9 reduced to a 2, which we're currently a 3, it'll save all 10 homeowners 8 percent. And -- 11 MAYOR SMITH: Pretty substantial amount of money. 12 MR. HOLLOWAY: And business owners also will get the 13 same amount. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, also, there's a -- 15 there's a savings out in the county when there's fire hydrants 16 in the community a certain distance from the home and all 17 that. But I would like for you to take me out in the county 18 and show me a fire hydrant that you could hook your pumper to. 19 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'd rather not do that, Buster. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Huh? 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'd rather not do that. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, because it's not 23 available. There's not -- 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's only one I know of, 25 Commissioner, and that goes back to the soil conservation 8-9-06 jcc 56 1 program where they put dry hydrants in -- that's what 2 Commissioner Letz was referring to -- put dry hydrants in to 3 make big tanks or a lake or so forth, which gives the 4 opportunity to draft. But if a city vehicle goes out and they 5 don't have the drafting capability, it's irrelevant. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, you couldn't hook a 7 pumper to one of those things. 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, I think Saddlewood and Horizon 9 and Maplewood and some of those areas probably do. One of the 10 fallbacks to that would be the amount of water available. I 11 mean, if you have a huge fire, it probably would drain the 12 tank, but they have that capability. 13 MR. COLEMAN: Chief, what is a typical response with 14 volunteer fire departments? Do they respond first and 15 evaluate the situation? If they feel they need more 16 assistance, they'll then call you? 17 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir, that's the way it's set up 18 right now. 19 MR. COLEMAN: And then you don't respond unless they 20 do call? 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's correct, except for the 22 Kerrville South area. Now, the Kerrville South area, we -- we 23 respond as soon as the call comes in. We're the primary 24 responders to that area, and that Kerrville South area is 25 huge. It's -- it's like -- it's probably twice as big as the 8-9-06 jcc 57 1 city limits. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But in your question, I think 3 the -- the response, based on the data the Chief provided to 4 us, is that outside the -- Kerrville South contracted area, 5 it's about four times last year? I think it was four times. 6 Three? 7 MR. HOLLOWAY: Response? Responses? 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where y'all send trucks out in 9 the county. It's pretty -- it's minimal. It's not a large 10 number. And most of the -- 11 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, structure fires -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the reality is that in the 13 county, if you have a structure fire, it's going to burn. I 14 mean, they might be able to salvage a building nearby. 15 Whether it be volunteer or the city, 'cause of response time, 16 you're not going to get anything. So, the majority of the 17 volunteer fire departments are set up to -- for brush fires 18 and containment, because the structure -- it's just a given, 19 you really can't do much. And there's a -- I mean, even if 20 you have -- the response time of volunteer fire departments is 21 pretty quick to get their initial truck out there, but even 22 with that, I mean, it's just not going to save most 23 structures. 24 MAYOR SMITH: Fire departments are something that, 25 if you need them, you need them, and you hope you never need 8-9-06 jcc 58 1 them. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Exactly. 3 MAYOR SMITH: But you have to have the equipment 4 available in case you do. 5 MR. HOLLOWAY: Let me talk a second about the brush 6 fires. You know, we're really set up to send just a brush 7 truck to the brush fires, but we send a pumper every time a 8 brush truck rolls, because we don't have enough personnel to 9 man that, so we send a pumper out there for manpower until we 10 get our off-duty people in. Because what we have to do is 11 take a firefighter off a fire truck to put on that brush 12 truck, and then if it's a good working fire, we may send as 13 many as 20 guys out there, depending on how long it takes. We 14 send a lot more equipment out there than really what's in the 15 contract. You alluded to that earlier. 16 MR. MEEK: Raymond, I know you rely on the volunteer 17 pumper -- or the trucks, the tankers. Is it -- would it be 18 worthwhile to develop drafting capability for your prime 19 trucks? 20 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, the -- the amount of times that 21 we would use that -- I mean, our trucks are pretty well loaded 22 down, and to find a place to put a hose on so that they can -- 23 they're capable of drafting -- let me back up. They can 24 draft. They just don't have a hard suction that you -- you 25 need two sections of hard suction or maybe more to reach 8-9-06 jcc 59 1 whatever the water supply is. But those trucks are capable of 2 drafting; all of them are. 3 MAYOR SMITH: The small volume of water you have in 4 the fire truck, if you're using chemicals, that more or less 5 multiplies that volume? 6 MR. HOLLOWAY: Right. 7 MAYOR SMITH: We have the capability of using -- 8 MR. HOLLOWAY: All of our trucks -- 9 MAYOR SMITH: -- more than water? 10 MR. HOLLOWAY: Sure, and we do dump some of the 11 chemicals into the tank. Some of them have tanks of their 12 own. The new truck that we're looking at is a compressed air 13 foam system, and that will be built into that. And all that 14 reduces the amount of water needed to fight fire. 15 MAYOR SMITH: So, your water's multiplied by the use 16 of chemicals in a lot of cases? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Four to one. 18 MR. HOFMANN: Let me, if I might -- okay, what we 19 were trying to accomplish here was take a first step towards 20 creating some sort of funding methodology that -- that is 21 reasonable and -- and makes sense and can be justified. We've 22 been using that $125,000 number, and in my assessment, there's 23 no real logic behind that. And we -- when you think about the 24 -- the extent to which we -- we need to be ready to provide 25 service throughout the county and the extent to which city 8-9-06 jcc 60 1 residents are paying for that readiness right now, $125,000 to 2 me, just, frankly, isn't a very reasonable number. We 3 attempted to come up with a methodology for allocating that 4 cost which I think is pretty fair and pretty -- and pretty 5 balanced. We looked at the cost of one crew, one truck, and 6 we allocated the capital costs associated with that by the 7 same proportion, and that's where we got that number from. 8 There is nothing in here about future fire stations. This is 9 about the existing system, the existing capacity. I recognize 10 that it would be a significant increase, and maybe it's too 11 much of an increase, and maybe we still haven't struck that 12 right balance. Mr. Letz, I think your comment about somehow 13 including in the math the existence of that existing 14 infrastructure out there, I think that makes sense. And, no, 15 you're right, we didn't look at that. We could take a shot at 16 that. My message to -- to you guys is, okay, $336,000, which 17 is the result of our math, to me -- I think that's arguably a 18 pretty good deal for the City of Kerrville to be able to run 19 out to the entire county, and I think the County would be 20 hard-pressed to find a better deal than that. On the other 21 hand, that's a big increase over $125,000. I recognize that 22 too, and if we need to work harder on finding the right 23 balance, that's what this is all about. We'll do it. 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Another way we might look 25 at it is that we pay Kerrville $125,000 to handle one of our 8-9-06 jcc 61 1 10 primary fire areas, Kerrville South. 2 MR. HOFMANN: We provide service to the entire 3 county. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. You ran 12 times in 5 the last two years -- 24, excuse me. And we don't pay that 6 much to our other nine providers. 7 MR. COLEMAN: Do we have a sense of how many runs we 8 have to make to Kerrville South? 9 MR. HOLLOWAY: We don't have them broken out that 10 way just into the county. We'd have to go manually and -- I'm 11 sorry, we do have it. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I think you do. 13 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yeah. Structure fires, we made four 14 last year and eight this year. Other fires, we made 54 last 15 year, and 39 this year -- so far this year. 16 MR. MEEK: County-wide? 17 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, that's to the Kerrville South 18 area. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Kerrville South. 20 MR. MEEK: Oh, just Kerrville South? 21 MR. HOLLOWAY: That's Kerrville South. 22 MR. MEEK: Do you have the rest of the county? 23 MR. HOLLOWAY: Well, that isn't broken -- 24 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think it was 24 in the 25 last two years. 8-9-06 jcc 62 1 MR. HOLLOWAY: I'm sorry. Yes, it is -- it's right 2 above there. I'm sorry, I didn't have this. This is what we 3 sent the County, anyway. Structure fires into the rest of the 4 county is four and four; that's last year. And this year, 5 other fires, eight and eight. And grass and brush fires, 12 6 and 11. So, we're making a lot more calls into the Kerrville 7 South area, of course, than we are the rest of the county. 8 MAYOR SMITH: Your arms are getting short. 9 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yes, sir, they are. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But in the Kerrville South area, 11 I mean, it's -- there are volunteer fire departments that 12 cover that as well. I mean, it is -- Kerrville's dispatched 13 first, but Center Point, Ingram, Turtle Creek respond almost 14 -- you know, as well. So, it's not -- even though we refer to 15 it as Kerrville South's the, you know, City of Kerrville's 16 area, it's their -- they send a truck. The other, you know, 17 fire departments -- volunteer fire departments are also 18 covering that area as well. 19 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yeah. If there's a structure fire, 20 we call those guys for assistance. And depending on the size 21 of the brush fire, grass fire, we call them also. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. So, it's -- I mean, 23 they're -- I mean, they're working together. It's not an 24 either/or. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We're not sending -- City of 8-9-06 jcc 63 1 Kerrville doesn't respond to the far reaches of east or west; 2 is that correct? 3 MR. HOLLOWAY: No, we do to the east. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Go all the way to the county 5 line east? 6 MR. HOLLOWAY: Yeah. Well, Comfort Volunteer Fire 7 Department, they're the first responders in some part of that 8 east area. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 10 MR. HOLLOWAY: But we will go over there. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They -- Comfort Volunteer Fire 12 Department's all the way up to Hill Country Ranch Estates, 13 which is almost to the city limits. The Comfort Fire 14 Department area is huge, and they have a big -- very -- they 15 probably have the largest, outside maybe Ingram, maybe even as 16 large as Ingram Volunteer Fire Department, because they cover 17 pretty much Hill Country Ranch Estates to the Comfort side of 18 Whiskey Canyon, all the way past Sisterdale almost to Boerne. 19 They have a huge geographic area. That's why they have a very 20 large department. 21 MR. COLEMAN: Well, I personally like the science 22 and the methodology, the logic of having a way to get to the 23 number, whatever it is. It does sound maybe to me that, with 24 the volunteer departments out there, it might be a little bit 25 high, at least this year. Is there an alternative, Paul? 8-9-06 jcc 64 1 MR. HOFMANN: Is there an alternative? 2 MR. COLEMAN: Is there an alternative way we can 3 modify our calculation, some independent sort of logic? 4 MR. HOFMANN: Sure. I'd like to think about Mr. 5 Letz' suggestion here a bit. Yeah, we would -- we'd be happy 6 to grapple with that. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We fund about -- I mean, to the 8 county fire departments -- volunteer fire departments, $13,000 9 a year to each one, and then they raise a huge amount of money 10 in their budgets. I don't know what their budgets are, but 11 they've got to be pretty substantial. Obviously, they don't 12 have labor, which helps them a lot, but they still have a lot 13 of money that they have to raise in grants and other things. 14 But -- and it's all -- I guess my point is, and I think the -- 15 you know, and Paul, I think, agrees, is that it's a -- it's a 16 capacity that needs to be built in. 17 MR. HOFMANN: Right. It's the existing out there. 18 MR. COLEMAN: And I agree with that as well. 19 MR. HOFMANN: Sure. 20 MR. COLEMAN: However that -- whatever amount that 21 should be. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And I don't -- I mean, I don't 23 have a problem with trying to figure out what -- a formula to 24 come up with what that amount is. I mean, I -- but I just 25 think you need to look at that. If you look at the whole 8-9-06 jcc 65 1 picture, you need to look at the whole picture. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Have we kind of kicked around fire 3 enough? Why don't we take a 10-, 15-minute break here? We'll 4 give Kathy a little break and get back to it. 5 (Recess taken from 10:26 a.m. to 10:40 a.m.) 6 - - - - - - - - - - 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, why don't we come back to 8 order? Where do we go from here, gentlemen? I believe the 9 mayor mentioned that he wanted to talk about the library. 10 MAYOR SMITH: Yes, sir, if we could. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 12 MAYOR SMITH: I saw a lot of faces back here and I 13 wondered what they were at the meeting for, and it finally 14 dawned on me what they were here for. So, if we can handle 15 the library next, I'm sure they'd appreciate it. 16 MR. BENHAM: Amen. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I have just a general comment 18 for discussion. I think -- I mean, we obviously go round and 19 round every year about this, and it's probably one of the more 20 difficult topics, because it's -- compared to EMS and fire, 21 it's a discretionary -- more of a discretionary expenditure, 22 which I think makes it, you know, a little bit more difficult 23 to deal with. The other part of it is that -- where I've had 24 a real problem with it, I think that the library -- we 25 certainly need a library. I support a library. But the usage 8-9-06 jcc 66 1 of the library is dominated by city of Kerrville residents, 2 and those are being doubly taxed right now for the use of that 3 library, 'cause they're paying county taxes and city taxes, 4 whereas the other county residents don't pay it -- I mean, the 5 reality is, they don't use the library that much, at least in 6 my precinct that live in the county. We are operating the 7 library the way we do because that's the way the Butt 8 Foundation or the Butt family set it up originally. I've not 9 ever really looked at those documents, but, you know, it may 10 be time for one or the other to take over that facility and 11 put it behind us, 'cause I don't see the discussions that 12 we're having over how it's run and budgets changing from year 13 to year. And I'd like to get an opinion from the City 14 Attorney and the County Attorney, based on how that library 15 was set up and given to the County and the City, how do we 16 undo it? Or is it even possible to undo it? And at least to 17 have that as a -- something that we're aware of, 'cause I 18 truly have no idea whether we can do that. There may be some 19 kind of a clause that prevents us from doing it without it 20 reverting to some entity that we don't want to happen, so 21 that's kind of one thing. I'd like to look at some options, 22 because this is a -- I just -- I think that everyone at the 23 table probably dreads this discussion every year, because we 24 know it's going to be a difficult one. 25 MR. COLEMAN: In my opinion, it's the hardest one we 8-9-06 jcc 67 1 face. 2 MR. MEEK: I have a question. Perhaps one of our 3 attorneys here could answer this. But was it set up as a free 4 library in those original documents? 5 MR. HAYES: You know, Mr. Meek, I don't recall. 6 What do you mean? You mean those exact words used? 7 MR. MEEK: I think that is -- I think that is a 8 definition of library -- libraries. In other words, you don't 9 charge substantially for the service. And I -- oh, here we 10 go. 11 MR. MARTINEZ: As far as the operation, per city 12 charter, yes, it is set up as a free library under the 13 statutes of the state of Texas. 14 MR. MEEK: Can you tell us what that means, 15 basically? 16 MR. MARTINEZ: It means that there -- there is a 17 limit on the fees that can be charged. There are only certain 18 things allowed for charging. 19 MR. MEEK: Do you remember if that language was 20 contained in the original agreement that the Butts -- 21 MR. MARTINEZ: That was their -- the direction they 22 wanted. It didn't state it in terms of the state law, but 23 yes, that's the direction they wanted. 24 MR. MEEK: In the agreement, it uses that 25 terminology? 8-9-06 jcc 68 1 MR. MARTINEZ: Well, they wanted a jointly-operated 2 City/County-funded library. Free public library, yes. 3 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mr. Meek? 4 MR. MEEK: That's significant. Yes, sir? 5 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I don't know what happened 6 back then. That's probably exactly what happened. The 7 reality today is that you need to be a free library by 8 definition under the state code in order to qualify to 9 participate in programs that are very viable to do this, so it 10 becomes -- giving up the status of free library is not an 11 option. Now, there's a half step -- a half measure there. 12 The -- under the code, the County could discontinue funding 13 the library, and then county -- people who live outside the 14 city, but live in the county, could be charged whatever fees 15 the traffic would bear, and it would still be a free library 16 by definition. 17 MR. HOFMANN: Free municipal library. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Yeah. 19 MR. MEEK: The question, I believe, earlier was, do 20 we know -- you mentioned possibly undoing that deal. What -- 21 does anyone know what the ramifications -- if that's even 22 possible? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: I've never seen the documentation by 24 which this whole creature was launched, and I'd like to see 25 that documentation. I'm -- in fact, I made a note on the City 8-9-06 jcc 69 1 Manager's letter of, "Where is this document? I'd like to see 2 it." 3 MR. HOFMANN: We can certainly -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've got on it my desk, 5 Judge. I'll show it to you. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Good. Good. 7 MR. MEEK: Can you answer our questions on the 8 document? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't want to answer 10 questions on it. I went back and researched the county 11 minutes and the documents that flowed from or were a part of 12 Commissioners Court meetings going back into, I believe, 13 1965-'66 and in that time frame which the -- the funding 14 agreements came, and I'll be happy to share them with whomever 15 wants to look at them. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- the reason -- you 17 know, and for this year, you know, I think the County needs to 18 fund close to what the City's asking. That's just my personal 19 feeling on that, but I just think, directionally, we've -- 20 something's got to be done. And I think what has happened -- 21 and I'm looking at this from a, you know, planning standpoint. 22 How can an entity like the library do long-term planning when 23 every year there's a battle over funding? Like, to the 24 point -- I mean, you can't do it. It just doesn't work, the 25 way it's working. And, you know, I have -- you know, none of 8-9-06 jcc 70 1 my constituents are happy. Those that live in the city say 2 they're paying taxes twice, and those that live out further, 3 out of the city, generally say, "Why should we have to pay it 4 at all?" You know, 'cause they don't use it. So, it's a -- 5 you know, my constituents are unhappy with the way it's 6 working out and the costs of it. But at the same time, I 7 clearly believe we need to have a library, and that's open to 8 the public; I think that is a good thing. Directionally, what 9 that library looks like in a, you know, 5-, 10-, 20-year plan, 10 I mean, that's another consideration. I tend to share a lot 11 of views that Commissioner Nicholson does, that what's on the 12 internet more and more is the research part of it, and a lot 13 of it is being replaced by computers. But there's still a 14 need for a library, certainly. Hopefully, we'll always have a 15 need for books and people that read novels and -- 16 MR. COLEMAN: Well, Jonathan, from a planning 17 standpoint, our -- our options, I guess -- I know the -- a 18 library district has been recommended and kicked around, and 19 that might be one fair way that -- that all of the residents 20 of the city and the county would end up supporting -- paying 21 taxes to support the library. Although there's a chance -- 22 the off side of that is that our -- our taxes would go up. 23 Another alternative, I guess, would be if somehow it was 24 determined that the City took it over in its entirety, there 25 would still need to be some kind of mechanism, user-pay or 8-9-06 jcc 71 1 somehow, that county users would help share some of that cost, 2 and that would be difficult. I'm not -- I'm not real sure 3 what our other options might be. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think those -- those, that I 5 see, are the two options. I think the library district, float 6 it. If it -- you know, if it works and there's some support 7 that there likely is in this county for that, I think it would 8 solve the problems in that direction. It becomes a -- it's 9 removed from the City budget and the County budget; it becomes 10 a separate entity. The other option is a -- really, in 11 reality, is more of a City-run city library. And the City 12 would then charge county residents what is an appropriate 13 amount, and I think it should, you know, be basically user-pay 14 as much as possible. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've long -- sorry, Judge. 16 Go ahead. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: On the user-pay issue -- and I think 18 that it gets more exacerbating when you get the over-65 tax 19 freeze put in place, too. I don't have the numbers. My sense 20 of it is that, proportionately, those with more free time have 21 the ability to use the library and do use the library, and 22 that's going to be primarily the retirees that have that time 23 available to them. And, of course, the County now has in 24 place the over-65 tax freeze. The City's fate is hanging in 25 the balance now, but if that passes on the city side, 8-9-06 jcc 72 1 you're -- you're laying this more and more on the -- what I 2 believe to be more the non-users than the users. 3 MR. COLEMAN: Judge, what -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: So, on a user-pay basis, I have -- I 5 have a concern that we're getting more away from it as opposed 6 to passing that cost of operation on to the users themselves. 7 And it's a discretionary service. It's not like calling -- 8 calling for law enforcement, calling for a fire or calling for 9 emergency medical services. 10 MR. GROSS: You know, I might take issue with you 11 just a little bit. We have a good library, but we don't have 12 a great library. And whether or not one is discretionary, you 13 could argue, but in terms of the value to society of a 14 well-educated, well-read, well-informed society, the library 15 is a very important thing. And I think what we need to do 16 is -- and I like Commissioner Letz' comment about let's think 17 about where we're going years down the road. We need to 18 define what constitutes a great library in the year 2025, and 19 work -- I mean, maybe it's -- books will disappear. I don't 20 know. Maybe it's more computers. Maybe it's -- maybe 21 computers become ubiquitous and people have them at home. I 22 don't know, but we need to think about it. I think that as a 23 governing group, our responsibility is to encourage use of the 24 library, and not discourage it through the users fees. I 25 think the library has done a fairly poor job of reaching out 8-9-06 jcc 73 1 to potential users in the county. Maybe there should be some 2 direction there as well. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not advocating that we not a have 4 a library, or we have a good or a great library. My position 5 is, generally, to the extent that it's feasible, those that 6 use the library should be more responsible for the cost of its 7 operation than those that don't. 8 MR. GROSS: Okay. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I've long advocated and do 10 support -- continue to support the establishment of a library 11 district, which becomes then a taxing district. And I don't 12 agree possibly that it would be an increase in taxes. I 13 believe the only way you would ever get the voters to support 14 that initiative would be for the City and the County both to 15 pledge removing the amount we support -- financial support out 16 of our budgets now, and that that -- whatever that amount is, 17 collectively, reduced to pennies on a tax rate, becomes the 18 basis of a budget for -- for a library district. I believe -- 19 I believe that's the only way you could get people to support 20 it so that you could get past the argument that it's double 21 taxation. I believe the library needs to have support, needs 22 to know that the support can increase. I believe the people 23 who pay the bills should be able to know, as the Councilman 24 points out, that the library services are going to improve. 25 But they need to be -- they need to answer totally to a 8-9-06 jcc 74 1 library district board of directors who sets the policy and 2 the direction for the library, and based on its operational 3 needs, sets the tax rate for that, and the City and the County 4 graciously back away from it. We set it up. I think that's 5 the way it ought to go. 6 MR. COLEMAN: And, Bill, I'm not -- I'm not stating 7 that I think the taxes would increase. I'm -- all I was 8 stating is that that is one of the common concerns with 9 setting up a library district. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand. That's 11 legitimate. 12 MR. COLEMAN: And I don't know -- 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Doesn't have to be, though. 14 MR. COLEMAN: I don't have that knowledge. 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's a legitimate concern, 16 but it doesn't have to be that way. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I want to tell the City 18 Council what I previously told Commissioners Court. By the 19 way, I'm the County's liaison to the Library Board. I'm on 20 the Library Board. The library process this year was very 21 good. We did a very complete and thorough job of going 22 through the budget. In my opinion, there's not -- if you're 23 going to have the kind of library you got today, there's not 24 much room for -- for cost reduction. There's not much -- much 25 or any fluff in the budget, so it's -- it's a well thought out 8-9-06 jcc 75 1 budget. That's a whole lot different than last year and 2 previous years where the budgeting process has been a 3 disaster. And I attribute that to the wisdom of changing the 4 role and the makeup of the Library Board. There are people 5 who are smart about library things, and they're working hard 6 to do a good job of being advisers on the library. 7 MR. BOCK: I would just like to make a comment on 8 the fact that Mr. Lipscomb -- the other day, I made mention to 9 him, my fear is, and I think I'm getting consensus from 10 everybody, if we're going to plan for the future of this 11 library and where it goes from here, we need to change 12 something. Because coming in every year, this being my second 13 year, and doing a library -- I don't think we're doing the 14 library any justice in this way. 15 MR. COLEMAN: I agree with that, too. 16 MR. BOCK: So I totally agree with a long-term plan 17 so that we have some money -- going to appropriate some money 18 for, you know, the continuation of the study, and -- of the 19 library and expansion of the library. Well, you know, I'm 20 kind of concerned, in doing that, if -- if there is going to 21 be -- if we're back here next year and then have to take our 22 partners in it and say, "Look, you know, here's where we want 23 to go with the library," and -- and then the -- the amount of 24 money is not appropriate and the County doesn't have the 25 funds. And, you know, I -- and I like the way that the -- the 8-9-06 jcc 76 1 library and the board is operating right now. It's almost 2 like a perfect scenario, that if you had that taxing district, 3 you've already got the -- the operations there to operate it. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: What's missing is a 5 vision -- a shared vision of what libraries are going to look 6 like in 2025, whoever said that. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And following up on what 9 you said, without having that shared vision, any planning is 10 superfluous. Now, if you create a -- try to create a shared 11 vision, it's going to be pretty interesting discussion. I 12 believe that, for example, the brick-and-mortar libraries are 13 going to be displaced by electronic libraries. Others feel 14 very passionately that that's not going to happen, and who 15 knows what's right? But the discussion needs to occur. 16 The -- you need to work toward a shared vision before you 17 start planning on what you're going to do with the current 18 facilities. 19 MAYOR SMITH: And that's one thing, when we mention 20 the library, they're humans that work there. And those 21 people -- if I was working for an outfit that had to be funded 22 every year, I would sure be a little nervous about, will my 23 job be there next year? So we need to resolve this somehow so 24 we can -- we can keep -- or hire competent people. I'm not 25 saying the people that are there are not competent, but we -- 8-9-06 jcc 77 1 we need to -- we need to have a staff at the library, because 2 that's important. When the library issue came up, I travel a 3 lot, and I went to about 10 libraries up in New England, a 4 couple in Tennessee, and some in California. But the thing 5 that was used in those places are the computers. They had a 6 -- the people waiting, and they had the time schedules where 7 you could only use it -- so, we might be going to computerized 8 libraries, but there are also some people who don't have 9 computers. So, it was -- it was something. But this needs to 10 be resolved. I've heard several talks about district -- 11 creating it, and somebody even mentioned going to the adjacent 12 counties, not only Kerrville and Kerr County. What -- what 13 would be the boundary of that -- of that taxing authority? 14 You know, it would be real complicated to include some of 15 Bandera and some of Gillespie and some of these other 16 counties. So, the -- the taxing district is not an easy 17 thing. And also, the taxing district would have to provide a 18 lot of the technical management things that would be pretty 19 difficult. You know, the City is doing those things now. And 20 somebody said, "Well, if we set up a taxing district, we'll 21 let the City keep doing the legal and all these things." 22 Well, you'd have to have an operating agreement and so forth. 23 So, the taxing district -- I assume that if we do have a 24 taxing district, it'll just be Kerrville and Kerr County. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Kerr County, basically. 8-9-06 jcc 78 1 MAYOR SMITH: Well, okay, Kerr County. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Which includes the city, 3 Mayor. 4 MAYOR SMITH: So, the same people are going to be 5 paying for it, and the county people are going to be paying 6 for it, and so maybe that's -- I don't see any difference 7 between setting up a -- a district, because the county -- 8 non-users are going to be paying for the -- for the district. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I see a huge difference. The 10 difference that I see is that it's a separate -- it's a 11 separate fund, essentially, that's funded out of a separate 12 entity. One of the problems the County has, and I guess the 13 City has it as well, every two years we get a new group of 14 unfunded mandates from the State, and we have to balance that 15 and our other needs against a -- now a tax freeze as well. 16 And you have to start looking at -- I mean, if you look at our 17 budgets for recent years, we don't have much discretionary 18 spending. We pretty much -- our money goes into roads, law 19 enforcement, and then the County's -- and the whole legal 20 system and indigent system, which we have to fund. Those are 21 all mandated by law that we have to do that. It is harder and 22 harder for us year to year. We would love to go out and add 23 on to the Ag Barn. We would love to improve Flat Rock Park. 24 We would love to do Lions Park and our other parks around the 25 county. The reason you don't see those things done is because 8-9-06 jcc 79 1 the State has just tied our hands with -- with mandates. So, 2 I think the City has a lot more flexibility. We can't raise 3 taxes now on the majority of our population. Even if we do 4 have a tax increase, it's only going to hit a certain small 5 segment of the population, so we're in a situation in the 6 county that it's very difficult to fund things that are 7 discretionary, which the library is. Putting in a taxing 8 district, all of a sudden it's in a separate fund, to me. 9 It's -- then all -- sure, everyone's paying for it, but that 10 money's going in for a certain purpose, and I think it's a lot 11 fairer and a better way to do it. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Benham indicated to me that he 13 had some information available to him regarding the legal 14 setup of the library relative to the real estate. 15 MR. BENHAM: To the property, yes. The question was 16 asked earlier about what would happen to that property if the 17 library -- current setup ceased to exist. I can't speak 18 regarding the main building, because that was all done before 19 I moved here. But I was involved -- Friends of the Library 20 were deeply involved, I should say, in raising the money for 21 the other two buildings, the history center and the building 22 that's currently being used by the City of Kerrville on a 23 temporary basis for some of the city offices. That money, 24 which came largely -- not entirely, but largely from 25 foundations, those foundations said, "We are providing this 8-9-06 jcc 80 1 money to obtain and renovate and so forth those two buildings, 2 with the understanding that we get the money back if they ever 3 cease to be used for library purposes." The Peterson 4 Foundation, the Cailloux's, the Butt Foundation, and I believe 5 at least one other said if you want to do this. We raised -- 6 for instance, the Friends raised $360,000 to buy the building 7 next door where the travel agency and the Cypress Grill used 8 to be, and 350 of the 360 came from foundations which said, 9 "We get that money back if you don't use it for the purposes 10 we're donating it for." So, the -- what I'm saying is, you'd 11 have to write some awfully big checks if you -- if you cease 12 to use those buildings for library purposes. Now, those 13 documents, as I recall them, did not specify who had to own 14 the library. It said used for library purposes, so I suppose 15 it's conceivable they could be transferred -- this is a 16 question for the attorneys over there. I assume it's 17 conceivable it could be -- that real estate could be 18 transferred to a new entity, another entity such as a library 19 district. But if you stop using those buildings for libraries 20 at all, you're going to have to write some awfully big checks 21 to those foundations. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: I've not heard any suggestion that 23 any of those properties be used for any other purpose, and I 24 think title to all three stand in the name of the City of 25 Kerrville, if I'm not mistaken. 8-9-06 jcc 81 1 MAYOR SMITH: Right. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: So -- and in one instance, there -- 3 there would not be a need for -- to make any change in the 4 title ownership of the property. And as far as that goes, if 5 a library district were created, I suppose there could be some 6 sort of a lease arrangement with -- with utilization by a 7 library district, if that were the case. 8 MR. BENHAM: Well, believe me, Judge, I wasn't 9 suggesting -- or wasn't trying to put words in your mouth that 10 you wanted to use those buildings for anything other than the 11 library. I'm just saying that if that question -- if that 12 question ever came up -- for instance, it's been suggested by 13 some of the consultants that fund -- the Friends -- whose work 14 the Friends have funded, we might consider going to a whole 15 new location for a library, and -- and stay -- put up a 16 state-of-the-art facility, rather than to try to upgrade what 17 we have now. And I brought it up because of that, among other 18 things. Simply that those properties do have to continue to 19 be used for library purposes, or the -- as I say, you'd have 20 to write some awfully big checks. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Either that or get -- get consent of 22 the current management of those entities if that property were 23 going to be disposed of and the proceeds used to fund a new 24 complex, I could see where that might be appropriate and 25 acceptable to those -- those foundations and so forth. But 8-9-06 jcc 82 1 you would necessarily need to get their consent, obviously. 2 MR. BENHAM: Could I address the question of 3 computers replacing books, since that was also raised? Would 4 you allow me that? 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I'm certainly not going to deny 6 you that. 7 MR. BENHAM: Well you're -- one thing, I think, that 8 -- this question keeps coming up, and it's a valid one. 9 The -- one thing that needs to be considered in this, however, 10 is I -- Commissioner Nicholson and I were talking about this 11 earlier. I use in my work the internet about a third of the 12 time, my own library -- I have the good fortune to have a 13 library of about 3,000 volumes, and the public library roughly 14 equal amounts, but what I'm finding is there are more and more 15 entities that are charging for access via the internet. I 16 don't read the political copy in the New York Times, but I do 17 look up things involving such things as -- as business and 18 financial stuff, and I read the wine column assiduously. But, 19 more and more, when I try to find something in the New York 20 Times, try to download some something from the New York Times, 21 they say that's a service -- that's a feature that you have to 22 pay for. And it's not just the New York Times. So, it's not 23 as if the -- the internet is free once you get on it. There's 24 less and less of the internet that is free. And the idea that 25 we can replace books with computers down the road someplace, 8-9-06 jcc 83 1 as -- as one of the other people around the table suggested, 2 that can -- that's possible, but it's not going to be free. 3 It's going to cost money. Thank you for your -- letting me 4 say something. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If I can just add a comment to 6 that. 7 MR. BENHAM: Sure. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I hope no one does -- I mean, I 9 hope books will never be replaced. I mean, my comments were 10 solely related to research-type documents rather than books. 11 Those, I think the internet are great for. I would hate to 12 see our society if we no longer have books that we can take on 13 an airplane and read, at least my -- I can't read computer 14 screens enough to be able to read a novel or anything. So, 15 I -- hopefully we'll never lose books, but I think that the 16 use of the library from a research standpoint will change and 17 is changing. 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Just what Mr. Benham's 19 saying, this just proves again that what's needed is a 20 discussion about the future of libraries that brings about a 21 shared vision. And if nobody else wants to do that, I'll sit 22 down with you and we'll hammer it out. 23 MR. BENHAM: Well, the Friends are certainly at your 24 service. 25 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Okay. 8-9-06 jcc 84 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Relative to the aspect of cost being 2 imposed, one recent development, as I'm sure Mr. Benham took 3 note of, is I believe it was last week that -- I believe it 4 was AOL that -- that discontinued charging for their service, 5 and going to instead rely upon advertisements to make their 6 revenue, and that was a major -- a major change from what's 7 been occurring. The residence subscriber service to be able 8 to use them, you're now going to get them for free. They're 9 probably the major one still. 10 MR. BENHAM: They're the largest, yes. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's what I thought. 12 MR. COLEMAN: What is the approval process for 13 creating a library district? Is it voter-approved? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Yeah, it takes a certain 15 number on a -- and I'm going to jump in here with the legal 16 folks. I don't want to do a generalization. A -- a certain 17 percentage of -- of qualified voters within the jurisdiction 18 file a petition asking for a -- for a vote to be called on the 19 creation of the library district, and then it proceeds from 20 there, just like it does with an emergency services district, 21 something of that nature. And it's -- it's by referendum vote 22 of the qualified voters in whatever the jurisdiction it's 23 intended to be. There are limitations placed upon the -- the 24 taxing capability of the district, and the -- as long as the 25 board adopts a tax rate following the proper procedure just 8-9-06 jcc 85 1 like each of us follows essentially each year, they can set 2 that tax rate at whatever rate they need, subject to the cap 3 that's imposed by law, and pay for their own operations. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What -- I forgot what I was 5 going to ask. 6 MR. COLEMAN: Have -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Oh, I know. What's the budget 8 -- the estimated or requested amount for the library for this 9 year -- or for next year? 10 MR. HOFMANN: The suggested participation amount 11 from the County was 443,000 and some change. That is based 12 upon a -- a projected base budget for the library for Fiscal 13 '06-'07. Again, in accordance with the old agreement, that 14 would not include any cost for capital. And it -- as you 15 know, the City Council right now is considering some salary 16 increases for city staff next year. That number doesn't 17 include any of that. It's just base budget, $443,000. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think one of the -- and you 19 said -- 20 MR. HOFMANN: And that's 50 percent of that base 21 operations costs, without the capital and without the 22 operating. Going back to -- I mean, without the salary 23 increases. So, to your original point, Mr. Letz, about the 24 50/50 split, that was established in the '60's. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. The -- another reason to 8-9-06 jcc 86 1 have this as one entity or the other, being a city-run library 2 or county library, is that salary issue that you -- that's a 3 good point to bring it up, is that it's real difficult for us 4 if, one year, we decide to give a COLA of 4.2 percent, which 5 it looks like we may be landing somewhere near that, and say 6 the City decides to give a 2.8 percent. Now, I have no idea 7 what y'all's COLA is going to be. All of a sudden, you get 8 disparity between -- both are funding an operation, but 9 they're getting different pay raises, and I think that's -- 10 you know, we hear it a lot more in relation to some other 11 things, like the Appraisal District, where we don't -- neither 12 of us have as much control. There were many years where we 13 have given our employees a cost-of-living of 2.8 or 14 3.2 percent, and they give a cost-of-living of 6 percent, and 15 it really bothers me and also our employees that, you know, 16 we're funding that budget. So, I think it -- this is -- I'm 17 just bringing this up as an opportunity. It's a real problem. 18 I think it does help when we -- when some of these entities do 19 have one entity running it as opposed to the other, or moving 20 it into a third entity, such as a library district. The 443, 21 though, you said is exclusive of a COLA? What's the City 22 looking at for a COLA? 23 MR. HOFMANN: Well, it's not -- on average, it's 24 going to be between 4 and 5 percent. There is no 25 across-the-board same percentage. It was based upon a salary 8-9-06 jcc 87 1 study we had done a few months ago that looked at several of 2 our pay ranges, and there are individual recommendations for 3 individual pay branches. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, y'all aren't doing an 5 across-the-board COLA this year? 6 MR. HOFMANN: There would be -- assuming Council 7 passes this budget, there would be an across-the-board of 8 2.55 percent in October, and then we would implement the rest 9 of it in April. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What -- does the 443,667 11 include that, or is that going to be an add-on? 12 MR. HOFMANN: Does not. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Does not? 14 MR. HOFMANN: That was the point I was trying to 15 make. I mean, it includes money for salaries, obviously, but 16 any salary increase that is included in the City's budget for 17 Fiscal '07 is not in that 443, and we're suggesting it not be. 18 We're suggesting that the County participation be established 19 on a base budget that does not include the salary increases. 20 MR. COLEMAN: So that would be foregone for this 21 entire budget year. 22 MR. HOFMANN: And it would become part of the base. 23 MR. COLEMAN: Beginning next year. 24 MR. HOFMANN: For next year. Which I think is a 25 fair way to do it. 8-9-06 jcc 88 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, my personal 2 feeling is -- I have no idea how the other four are looking at 3 me right now; they're always nervous when I say something, 4 'cause they don't know what's going to come out of my mouth. 5 I'd be in favor -- I mean, I'm in favor of funding the 443 6 this year, with the condition that either we put it out to 7 voters for an ESD or the City take over full library 8 operations starting next year. 9 MR. GROSS: How about with the condition that we ask 10 the Friends of the Library or the Library Board to come back 11 next year with a long-term vision of what a library ought to 12 be? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think we need to figure out 14 how we're going to fund it before we come back with a plan. 15 And I think -- I mean, the reason is, we -- they've got it 16 already. So, that's -- 17 AUDIENCE: We've got it. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, this -- I don't see this 19 discussion going away. My preference is -- I mean, I say ESD; 20 a library district. I think that's the fairest, best way to 21 run a great library. I think you -- they no longer have to 22 worry about these discussions and COLA's other things. 23 They're setting their own budget and they're running the 24 library, and I think that's the way it should be done, and 25 every one of the voters have a right to say yes or no on that. 8-9-06 jcc 89 1 Hopefully, they'll say yes. If not, I think the -- you know, 2 the City or the County should take over operations so we don't 3 have this going back and forth every year. And the logical 4 thing, in my opinion, would be for the City to take it, 'cause 5 it's primarily used by the city residents. 6 MR. HOFMANN: It's owned by the City. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And it's owned by the City. 8 MR. HOFMANN: It is a City operation; they are City 9 employees. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, if the City says, "No, we 11 want the County to do it," we can certainly look at running a 12 county library, but that's a whole -- whole lot more work to 13 get there than going the other direction. And if that is the 14 -- the avenue, I think, from the County, should we -- I don't 15 think it's one year, just turn it over. I think you need to 16 -- I think you turn it over, then you reduce payments to a 17 point down to zero over a period of time, you know. I'm -- I 18 don't think it's a fair thing just to turn it over one year 19 and say, "Okay, here, it's your baby now." But you can reduce 20 it by, you know, 20 percent a year, something like that, over 21 five years until you get down to -- looks like a City 22 department. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with Commissioner 24 Nicholson, that the vision needs -- the vision needs to be 25 developed, what we think that should be going forward, and I 8-9-06 jcc 90 1 do support that as well. I think that, too, is part of -- 2 part of the discussion that you would have with the voters in 3 support of a library district. "This is what we have. These 4 are the problems. This is where we want to go, and the best 5 way to get there, the best funding vehicle that we can think 6 of to get there is a library district." And that is how we go 7 about doing it. I think you paint that entire picture and put 8 it to the voters. 9 MR. MEEK: How would you initiate that process? I 10 know it's a referendum process, but, I mean, how do these two 11 bodies explore or get that started to find out if the voters 12 are interested in that? How do you start that? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think you do it by 14 resolution, both yours and ours, that sets a mechanism up to 15 develop the strategy and the plan, and the willingness and the 16 desire to put it to the voters. We both do that and set a 17 time frame for having everything ready to go, and we begin the 18 publicity and set the date for the election. 19 MAYOR SMITH: I was at a TNL conference when they 20 were talking about library taxing districts, and as I 21 understand what they said, if you set up a district, you will 22 have a board of elected officials that -- that run -- or they 23 administer the money. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct. 25 MAYOR SMITH: Then you will have the administrators 8-9-06 jcc 91 1 of the library that report to this board of elected people. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's correct. 3 MAYOR SMITH: And so -- so, if you set up a 4 district, the management of the library will report to these 5 elected people, and -- and that can get a little -- you know, 6 it can generate a lot of problems between what these 7 management people feel how the library should be run versus 8 how the administrators of the library -- so -- so it's not a 9 simple thing to set up these taxing districts. And I kind of 10 -- after I listened to all that, I decided that it probably 11 wouldn't be appropriate for our situation here to set up a 12 taxing district. And I'm just gradually remembering all the 13 things that they said, the pluses and minuses on it, but I 14 just thought I'd mention that the management -- 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't see the -- 16 MAYOR SMITH: -- management of the library is not 17 the board that controls the money. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: A district-wide board would 19 be selected; you're correct, mayor. And the administration of 20 the library would be responsible to that district-wide board, 21 and the district-wide board sets the tax rate and is 22 responsible to the voters. I don't see the discussion with 23 respect to operations any more convoluted than the discussion 24 we're having here today. 25 MAYOR SMITH: You might be right there. 8-9-06 jcc 92 1 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I have been opposed to the 2 library district, and I think I may be coming around. I think 3 it may be the lesser of the evils. It may be the easiest way 4 to resolve the major problems that we're having with it. 5 MAYOR SMITH: Well, you get rid of a problem. To 6 me, I don't know if that's the way we want to handle it. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm not fully convinced, 8 but let me tell you what my reason is. I don't trust 9 governments. If we lower our -- or if we shed $950,000 worth 10 of expenses, these two entities, I don't trust either one of 11 us to lower our spending by that amount. 12 MR. COLEMAN: Paul, do you have any thoughts on -- 13 on the possibility of a district? 14 MR. HOFMANN: I will go back to something that Mr. 15 Letz said at the beginning of the meeting. I think a lot of 16 this depends on the answer to the first question, and I -- I 17 think we need a little time to research it, and that is, what 18 is our full range of options here relative to that 50/50 deal 19 that was established 40 years ago? And that needs to be 20 established to see just what your options are. Then, if you 21 do have the option of either creating a library district or 22 having the City be fully responsible for the funding of it, 23 then, sure, we can explore that. I mean, I'm going to get 24 back to a point that the mayor made. This is a decision the 25 City Council needs to make. The decision that the City 8-9-06 jcc 93 1 Council makes is a bit different than the decision that the 2 County Commissioners make, 'cause the City Council -- you own 3 the library, and you're -- you're responsible for its 4 operation. That's -- that's clear. 5 And you need to decide -- and a lot of this has to 6 do with the vision that Mr. Nicholson keeps describing, which 7 clearly is the missing piece in all of this. But the City 8 Council needs to decide the extent to which you want to be the 9 decision-making body here, or are you comfortable with the 10 idea of a different decision-making body here? That's up to 11 the City Council. Because, as the mayor pointed out, and I 12 think this is critical to the decision, creating a library 13 district isn't about raising the money through taxes. You 14 already have the ability to raise money for the library 15 through taxes. I understand Mr. Letz' point, and it's a good 16 one, about a separate funding stream, but it's also true 17 today, the library's funded through taxes. Okay. And, yes, 18 you would need to make sure there's some assurance that 19 there's a reduction on this side and this side, but it's not 20 about the taxing. It's about the decision making, I think, 21 and do you want the City Council to be in the decision making? 22 Or do you want a separately, newly elected, newly created 23 board of directors to -- to do that? That's the decision. 24 Todd made a comment earlier about what we've put in 25 the capital budget, and Council hasn't appropriated these 8-9-06 jcc 94 1 funds yet, but somewhere in that, all of this thinking needs 2 to come into play. Or, I mean, we need to -- how it's funded, 3 who the decision makers are, and what you want ultimately out 4 of a library all needs to kind of come out of that. And the 5 Library Board has heard me speak about this before. They've 6 heard what I -- I think about this. Your future facilities, 7 what you want in those facilities, the kind of programs you 8 want to provide. Mr. Gross says it's a good library, not a 9 great library. What's keeping from us making it a great 10 library, besides this annual debate, is we haven't been 11 creative enough, largely because of this annual debate, about 12 the kind of programs we ought to be serving out there. We do, 13 in my opinion, precious little for the youth in the community. 14 We do precious little to support the educational element in 15 this community. And we have a complex out there between the 16 existing building and the history center and where Denny's 17 offices are now, and we can do something pretty neat out 18 there. That's all -- we haven't thought about that so far; 19 that could all be part of that vision. And all that thinking 20 needs to come together. 21 I am more than happy to go out and do some research, 22 with Antonio's help and the Friends' help and the Library 23 Board's help, on what it would take to create a library 24 district. That's not a complicated answer, and Mr. Williams 25 pretty much has already answered it. But I would remind the 8-9-06 jcc 95 1 City Council, before you would go off and do that, a decision 2 you need to make is, well, who -- who should be the 3 decision-making body here? If -- and that's the library 4 district. Now, if it's a municipal library, which is the 5 other option Mr. Letz described, happy to look at that too. I 6 think you know this already from your -- from your discussion. 7 There is no way, immediately, we would be able to recover, 8 through fees from county residents who are users, that 9 $443,000. That would take us some time. But part of all this 10 -- this vision and this plan you're describing, if the County 11 would be willing -- as I heard you comment on, would be 12 willing to step down, phase down the contribution so that we 13 could kind of ease into it over time, if you would like for us 14 to put together a plan that shows what a -- in looking out 15 five or ten years, what a municipal -- what a municipal 16 library would look like, look like physically, look like 17 financially, I think we ought to do that. Because you -- and 18 then City Council is still responsible for it. And that's 19 kind of a value question that you have to wrestle with in 20 those two options. 21 MR. COLEMAN: I personally would like to see that. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think your assessment -- I 23 know your assessment's correct. And with respect to the issue 24 that the City Council has to take under advisement in terms of 25 whether it wants to give up the authority that it has with 8-9-06 jcc 96 1 respect to the management -- 2 MR. HOFMANN: Right. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- of the operation, -- 4 MR. HOFMANN: Right. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- one of the flaws, as I 6 recall reading base documents, one of the flaws in the base 7 documents is precisely that. The management -- the ownership 8 is vested in the City, and the City and the County then are -- 9 are understood to be equal partners in the operational costs. 10 MR. HOFMANN: Right. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the County then becomes 12 disenfranchised from the decision making, and that's the flaw. 13 MR. HOFMANN: Right. It goes back to Mr. Letz' 14 original question. Not to put words in your mouth, but I 15 think you said what -- what can we get out of that? Well, we 16 need to research that. Because you don't -- until you know 17 the answer to that question, you don't know the extent to 18 which you can go down those other paths. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Correct. 20 MR. COLEMAN: And, Bill, I agree with what you said. 21 I think that prohibits us being able to move forward year 22 after year to the maximum benefit for the library. And I 23 think -- I think if we could look at those two options and 24 determine which one's the best way to go, we could do that, 25 and that will benefit the library. 8-9-06 jcc 97 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Definitely. 2 MR. MEEK: I would say the way this is shaping up, 3 the best way to maximize the resources for the library would 4 be a library district. That's pretty obvious, from listening 5 to this for a couple years, to me. And I think that's the 6 goal of the supporters of the library, is to have the best 7 library they can. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And the two pretty things 9 about it is, the people make that decision. They vote and 10 make the decision. And then the other thing is seeing the 11 government entities pull that budget out. I think that's a 12 work of art. 13 MR. COLEMAN: And it'll almost be like the school 14 board. You have people sitting on the school board that are 15 -- that are directly, critically interested in education. I 16 think you'd have the same thing occur potentially with the 17 Library Board. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Way to get us out of it. 19 MR. BOCK: My next question is to Mr. Hofmann. What 20 do we need to proceed? Do we need anything in the form of a 21 resolution, as Mr. Williams has suggested, in order to go 22 forward with this? Or do you -- and do we need to put this on 23 an agenda to give -- 24 MR. HOFMANN: I think that depends on how far you 25 want to go. I think if you want to ask Mike and Rex to 8-9-06 jcc 98 1 research those original documents, that's -- and see if -- 2 what your options are, that's one thing. If you -- and you 3 need the answer to that question. And then, if you would like 4 to ask me to work with the Library Board and the Friends to 5 pursue those two options, and the pros and the cons of those 6 two options and how that relates to some future vision for the 7 library, we are happy to do that. And, no, I don't think you 8 need a resolution to do that. Now, you'll need a resolution 9 once you decide what policy direction you want to go in. 10 MR. BOCK: Sure. 11 MR. HOFMANN: But when you're pursuing evaluating 12 options, if it's the consensus of you guys that that's what 13 you want to do, that's all you have to say. 14 MAYOR SMITH: And I hate to throw cold water on the 15 taxing district, but when you set up the taxing district, you 16 lose the services of the accountants, the lawyers, the 17 personnel people, the insurance people that are provided by 18 the City. Now, somebody said, "Well, you can contract with 19 the City to do that." Well, you're right back in the same 20 deal. But to set up a -- a taxing district, I think we're too 21 small to do that. If you -- if you were in San Antonio and 22 you had 15 libraries or something like that, or if you had 23 four -- three or four counties, there would be some logic to 24 it. But the City is still going to have to -- to provide all 25 these administrative services, or else the -- I don't know how 8-9-06 jcc 99 1 much is in this 900-some-odd thousand dollars for 2 administration of the -- of the city. I don't think there's 3 anything in there, is it? 4 MR. HOFMANN: No, sir. 5 MAYOR SMITH: So -- so, the 900, whatever it is, is 6 going to have to be supplemented by the services that will be 7 provided by some other entity, or else you're going to have to 8 hire lawyers and all that stuff. So, I'm -- I'm basically -- 9 and I gave it a lot of thought. I thought that would be the 10 answer, but it's -- it's not all that simple an answer. 11 MR. COLEMAN: Mayor, I think you may very well be 12 right. I think that would be one reason to do the plan for 13 both options, just -- just to be able to determine that one 14 way or the other -- 15 MAYOR SMITH: Between the two, setting up the taxing 16 district or the City taking over, I'd prefer that the City 17 take it over, and -- and -- because the City's going to have 18 to still do a lot of stuff, whether you have the taxing 19 district or not. People in the library said they might -- 20 going to handle all that themselves, but there's a heck of a 21 lot of stuff, you know. They're going to have to pay their 22 own people; they're going to have to provide benefits, they're 23 going to have to provide all that stuff for just this small 24 little module of some people. And the overhead on that is 25 going to be tremendous, I think. So -- 8-9-06 jcc 100 1 MR. COLEMAN: That's a good -- 2 MAYOR SMITH: -- that's -- I'll shut up on that. 3 But I'm opposed to setting up the taxing. 4 MR. COLEMAN: Paul, your analysis can -- can provide 5 for all that? 6 MR. HOFMANN: Absolutely. 7 MR. MEEK: I would say this. You know, some 8 interesting points there the mayor made. But the problem I 9 see is one of money. If the City is operating that library, I 10 do not see -- I -- I do not see being able to raise enough 11 fees for -- from people out in the county to pay their fair 12 share. I believe you will see the city residents greatly 13 supplementing those outside the city, and that is what the 14 library district addresses very well. You have one entity 15 taxing everyone in the county the same amount. That's the 16 beauty of a library district. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree. 18 MR. BOCK: Yes. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: I'm not so sure but what this 20 administrative cost may be somewhat of a bugaboo that's -- 21 that's more imagined than real. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Is that legal talk, 23 "bugaboo"? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, it is. Befuddled is what you 25 are right now. 8-9-06 jcc 101 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Can you spell that? 2 JUDGE TINLEY: As most of you know, we -- we've had 3 a recent experience with creating an emergency services 4 district in an area out in west Kerr County, and since that 5 district was created, there has been a significant amount of 6 activity. There's been spirited debate. Would that be a good 7 characterization? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Good. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: And even to the point of maybe some 10 conflict. But I don't think there's been a lot of money spent 11 on lawyers and administrators and the accountants and so 12 forth. They're managing to work their way through that. So, 13 I -- I would -- I would hope that a library district, being a 14 similar single-purpose type district, once it's created and 15 set up and in place, would -- would be able to keep most of 16 those costs in-house and keep them down. But as you 17 mentioned, Carl, that's the beauty of it. You don't have -- 18 you don't have the city residents being taxed by the City, and 19 then also being taxed by the County, and then this money going 20 into a pot. You've got one tax being imposed by the library 21 district that applies across the board from everybody in the 22 county, and it's a single-purpose situation, and it's 23 autonomous. 24 MAYOR SMITH: Well, I hope you're right. But on the 25 Airport Board, they're fussing about the amount -- you know, 8-9-06 jcc 102 1 the City is -- is the operator of the airport for the -- for 2 the city and the county, and they are arguing about what the 3 attorney gets and every -- every person out there. Somebody's 4 arguing about the allocation of those costs, and we haven't 5 been able to resolve it. Maybe the -- maybe the Library Board 6 will have more intelligence than the Airport Board and will be 7 able to handle it accurately. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I remind you, mayor, you sit 9 on that board with us. (Laughter.) 10 MAYOR SMITH: Well, I know. I listen to it all. 11 But it's -- I hope you're right, Judge. But there's a heck of 12 a lot of cost in running a business. And that's what you're 13 going to set up, a library business. And -- and somebody has 14 to pay for all this administrative stuff. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: It's an option, mayor; that's the 16 only thing I'm saying. When the options are investigated, it 17 may well tend to indicate that -- that a completely 18 City-controlled operation is a better choice. Don't know, but 19 let's take a look. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think at this point, I mean, I 21 -- I think we've pretty much gone over it, but I think it's -- 22 I mean, what Mr. Hofmann outlined is -- is exactly what needs 23 to happen. One, we need to look at the documents, see what 24 needs to happen, and then it's really in the City Council's 25 lap as to whether they want to pursue an ESD with the County, 8-9-06 jcc 103 1 and -- 'cause I think we clearly like that option, or if y'all 2 want to take over operations. I mean, that's -- it's really 3 not a Commissioners Court decision at this point, as long as 4 we're willing to fund what is asked this year. That's the 5 only thing that we really are -- today's issue. 6 MR. MEEK: So, it's basically like a teenager; you 7 give them two choices, either one of you which you like, 8 right? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. (Laughter.) 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And then they go in another 11 direction. 12 MR. MEEK: I understand that. 13 MAYOR SMITH: Well, we're definitely not going to 14 settle this in the next -- in the next two months or whatever 15 we have. But if the County would come up with their share of 16 whatever the budget's been submitted, that gives us probably 17 14 months to -- to analyze the situation and maybe come up 18 with a -- with a reasonable solution. There's a lot of work 19 to be done. This work will not be complete by the time the 20 budgets have to be approved. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've supported 443,000 for this 22 year. 23 MAYOR SMITH: Well, see if your compadres will do 24 it. I think we can -- I think we can live with that, and 25 resolve it one way or the other in the next 12 months -- or 14 8-9-06 jcc 104 1 months. 2 MR. COLEMAN: That is a good point. Paul, what kind 3 of time frame would you need? 4 MR. HOFMANN: Yeah, I think we're good. 5 MR. COLEMAN: What kind of time frame would you need 6 to -- 7 MR. HOFMANN: What I'd like to do, Mr. Coleman, is 8 have a little time to answer that question more specifically, 9 but I think it's reasonable to research those options and have 10 something that you can deal with going into the Fiscal '08 11 budget, sure. 12 MR. COLEMAN: That works for everybody? 13 MR. HOFMANN: Yeah. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. We pretty well stomped that 15 one in the ground. What else we got, gentlemen? 16 MAYOR SMITH: Airport. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That's handled by the Airport Board. 18 MR. COLEMAN: Just warming us up for airport, right? 19 MAYOR SMITH: I've already insulted the Airport 20 Board. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Despite what the mayor's feeling 22 is, I think the Airport Board's working very well. We're just 23 having some growing pains. 24 MAYOR SMITH: Well, I like to argue. I noticed you 25 like to also. 8-9-06 jcc 105 1 JUDGE TINLEY: We've got Animal Control still on the 2 plate, it appears. 3 MR. MEEK: On the plate? That sounds like road 4 kill, Judge. (Laughter.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: I -- I provided a copy of our 6 proposed draft budget on the animal control services to the 7 City Manager sometime back. And I apologize, I did not bring 8 that with me. I don't have it in front of me. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't either. 10 MR. HOFMANN: Judge, could I ask -- and I apologize; 11 I didn't bring it either. What -- what we had suggested was 12 that we keep the funding level for the City the same, right at 13 $126,000, and that the County resume the activity of -- of 14 dead animal pickup within the city. Where are we on that? 15 JUDGE TINLEY: My sense of it is no and no. 16 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Good place to start, right? 18 MR. HOFMANN: That's a good place to start. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think -- let's go to the 20 dead animal -- the dead pickup issue first. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because I think the reason -- 23 it's not no. It's that Animal Control doesn't do that for the 24 County either. It's a -- that's a new service for them to do 25 that, or it's certainly a -- a service that they're not 8-9-06 jcc 106 1 currently doing. And the problem comes up with whenever you 2 put a dead animal in the back of a truck, or transport, that 3 truck has to be disinfected before you can use it for live 4 animals. It's a health issue. So, they just don't pick up 5 dead animals. That's not their -- their job. In the county, 6 our Road and Bridge Department picks up dead animals. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And TexDOT. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And TexDOT picks up dead 9 animals. So, I mean, it's like -- that is a function that our 10 Animal Control just doesn't -- I think they did it for a 11 while, but that's where they got into -- you know, a couple 12 years ago, they did it. It's just -- it's not a service they 13 do. It doesn't fit. 14 MR. MEEK: That begs a question. Can your Road and 15 Bridge service pick up the dead animals in the city? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: For a price. 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I talked to the 18 administrator about it, and he said he didn't want to do it. 19 But he -- it could be done, but it would be adding cost to his 20 operation. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just adding work. That's why -- 22 that's why we thought last year, at least in my mind, to ask 23 the police department to do it, 'cause I presume they did that 24 kind of thing, but maybe they don't. But it's -- that's the 25 issue. I see Mr. Hofmann -- 8-9-06 jcc 107 1 MR. COLEMAN: Two weeks ago -- this is purely from a 2 citizen standpoint. Two weeks ago, the house across the 3 street from me is being remodeled, and a deer died over in 4 their yard. And the people remodeling it, they drug that deer 5 out to the curb, and I thought, "Oh, no." And -- and I wasn't 6 sure myself what the -- in the city limits, what dead animal 7 pickup was. I didn't know what the deal was, and so I kind 8 of -- I called around and found out, well, we don't have it. 9 And sure in the world -- this was, like, on a Sunday, I guess. 10 And I should have taken care of it that night, but I didn't do 11 it; I waited till the next morning. And Sunday morning coming 12 home from church, there were buzzards everywhere right in the 13 middle of the street, and this thing was bloated up, and it 14 was a horrible deal. And I finally -- I finally addressed it 15 then, which I should have done the day before, and took care 16 of it and took it off. But it is a service -- 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where'd you take it? 18 MR. COLEMAN: Well, I took it -- no, no. I'm legal. 19 I'm legal. (Laughter.) 20 MR. MEEK: Put it out in the county. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me give you a Miranda warning 22 first before you answer that. 23 MR. COLEMAN: Actually, what I did, I took it to our 24 development property where all of the buzzards hang out anyway 25 on those big transmission poles. And we -- 8-9-06 jcc 108 1 MR. MEEK: Did you ring the dinner bell? 2 MR. COLEMAN: They were coming in as I was leaving. 3 So -- 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If you take it out in the 5 county, dump it on the state highway so that Road and Bridge 6 doesn't need to pick it up. 7 MR. COLEMAN: Well, my whole point is, it truly is 8 an issue for the citizens. 9 MR. HOFMANN: Mr. Coleman, we do provide the 10 service. 11 MR. COLEMAN: Well, and I think that is what I found 12 out, that I had to call waste services -- solid waste 13 services. And, again, this happened on a -- I think it may 14 have -- it happened on a Saturday morning, I think. And -- 15 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. 16 MR. COLEMAN: -- by the time I could have gotten 17 them out on Monday -- 18 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. 19 MR. COLEMAN: -- it was already nasty. 20 MAYOR SMITH: Let me ask a question. On the state 21 road, TexDOT picks them up. So, along 173, there's always a 22 dead deer on there, but we call TexDOT and they come out and 23 pick it up? 24 MR. HOFMANN: Yes, sir. 25 MAYOR SMITH: Okay. 8-9-06 jcc 109 1 MR. HOFMANN: On the state roads, yes, sir. 2 MAYOR SMITH: That eliminates a lot -- 3 MR. MEEK: Sort of like a transfer station for dead 4 animals. 5 MAYOR SMITH: Right. But that eliminates a lot of 6 the animal carcasses on the road. It seems like most of them 7 are along the state roads. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's -- I think it's still 9 an issue. Obviously, with the -- I would think that the 10 City -- I don't know how many they pick up, but that's the 11 reason Animal Control's not a good match for it with the 12 county, is that we don't transport dead animals in those 13 vehicles. 14 MAYOR SMITH: Yeah. 15 MR. HOFMANN: What is the amount that the County's 16 looking for the City to fund next fiscal year? 17 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think costs are up about 18 5 percent or so, would be my estimate. So, five -- probably 19 somewhere around 5 percent more than last year. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Whatever the pro rata part of -- of 21 the cost was that the City shared in last year, they share 22 that same pro rata cost this year. 23 MR. HOFMANN: I apologize, Judge. Was that in that 24 document you gave us? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: No. All I submitted to you, 8-9-06 jcc 110 1 Mr. Hofmann, was -- was the proposed budget that -- that's 2 been recommended to Commissioners Court. 3 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. Just to make sure there's no -- 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I don't recall the percentage. We 5 can go back and -- and figure that up. Do you happen to 6 recall the share of percentage -- 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: 60 percent city, 40 percent 8 county. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 10 MR. COLEMAN: And this is actual operating costs, 11 without -- 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Based on activity. 13 60 percent of the animal control is activity in the city of 14 Kerrville. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is there -- 16 MR. COLEMAN: And that 60 percent is applied to the 17 total operating cost? 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Operating. 19 MR. COLEMAN: Without capital -- 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: There's no capital. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But in that operating, there's 22 none of the benefit -- none of the accounting and payroll, 23 none of that additional stuff. I mean, it's the salaries and 24 the benefits for those particular salaries, but there's no 25 overhead and administrative costs. 8-9-06 jcc 111 1 MR. COLEMAN: Your costs of that operation? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Whatever, like the library. 3 MR. COLEMAN: Pickup and all that -- or the vehicle. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Now, I think -- 5 JUDGE TINLEY: The cost of that department only. It 6 doesn't include any general administrative costs -- what you 7 and I would call general administrative costs, other than the 8 employees out there. There's no management costs, no legal, 9 no finance, and none of that stuff. 10 MR. COLEMAN: And, just personally -- and I haven't 11 seen the schedule at all, but it seems a little high to me. 12 It's -- 126,000 is 60 percent, so you guys are talking almost 13 300,000 for that cost? Again, I purely question it just out 14 of curiosity. I -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think just -- one thing on the 16 budget amount. Did we -- are -- is it projected that we're 17 going to spend that full amount this year? Aren't we running 18 under budget a little? Didn't we have less staff than we 19 thought part of the year? 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I can't tell. Depends on 21 how many sidewalks we have to build. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: The figure I get is 142,155. 23 MAYOR SMITH: Don't mention sidewalks, please. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Which is 60 percent of the -- of the 25 recommended budget for the department of 236,925. 8-9-06 jcc 112 1 MR. HOFMANN: Sorry, Judge. Give me that number 2 again? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: The total number is 236,925. 60 4 percent is 142,155. 5 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: By my calculation. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It's like most government 8 departments; it's mostly personnel. We have five people out 9 there, and then the other costs are utilities and fuel and 10 medicine and dog food, and -- 11 MR. COLEMAN: And what's -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My point -- I don't want to lose 13 it -- is that I think we were less than fully staffed part of 14 this year, so it should be -- I think we just need to account 15 for -- it's running under our general budget. There should be 16 some reserve the City will get credit for, because I don't 17 think we're going to use the full budgeted amount. It's 18 something we need to figure out how we account for that, 19 'cause I don't think we are -- right now, there should be a 20 credit. 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We'll know soon. 22 MR. HOFMANN: So -- 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, the budget will be -- if 24 that's the amount, it will be less than that, I would suspect, 25 because I think the City should get a credit for us not 8-9-06 jcc 113 1 spending all the money this year. 2 MR. HOFMANN: Okay. Council, just so you know, what 3 we -- what we budgeted is 126,000 and some change. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the request is 136? 5 MR. HOFMANN: 142. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 142, but I suspect it should be 7 a credit coming back against that. 8 MAYOR SMITH: What's the logic of the 60/40? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Calls. Keeping a log. 10 MAYOR SMITH: What's that? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A log of where the calls are, 12 and 60 percent of the calls are in the city. 13 MAYOR SMITH: Well, you're recognizing that the city 14 is -- is in the county, and that it seems like they're paying 15 a disproportionate part. The people in the city are paying a 16 premium. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't go there, mayor. 18 MAYOR SMITH: Well, you got to stir up a little 19 something. But -- 20 MR. HOFMANN: So I guess I shouldn't mention that 21 the amount you're asking the City to pay for animal control is 22 greater than the amount you're apparently willing to pay for 23 fire protection? 24 MAYOR SMITH: Yeah, go there. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's different. 8-9-06 jcc 114 1 JUDGE TINLEY: That's what those numbers would 2 indicate, Mr. Hofmann. 3 MR. HOFMANN: All right. Just making sure. 4 MAYOR SMITH: And I will say one thing. Animal 5 Control people do a fine job. And, you know, if you have a 6 problem, they're usually out there just like that. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But also, the level of service 8 in the city is different than in the county. We -- there -- I 9 mean, under the contract, there's more service rendered to 10 city residents, or -- than out-of-city residents. So, I mean, 11 yes, there is some -- 12 MR. HOFMANN: I'm sure most of the demand comes from 13 the city. 14 MR. COLEMAN: And generally, the full service is if 15 you get a call and there's a loose dog or a feral cat or 16 something like that, y'all will send somebody out to pick them 17 up, and they'll -- they'll bring them back and they'll house 18 them, try to find them a home or -- 19 MR. HOFMANN: No, not if it's a feral cat, but a 20 loose dog, yes. 21 MR. COLEMAN: Bad example. But a dog, and then 22 house that dog for a period of time, try to find a new owner. 23 And absent that, we euthanize the animal, right? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And there's a big thing that -- 25 unseen benefit for you, too, over to the city, is that when we 8-9-06 jcc 115 1 make a mistake and kill a pet cat, you don't have to hear 2 about it. We do. Which has happened several times. 3 MAYOR SMITH: Let me ask -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Particularly if you put one 5 of them down. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what I'm talking about. 7 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: And that would never happen 8 if everybody obeyed the law and had a tag on their cats. 9 MR. COLEMAN: That's the other thing, the other part 10 of this. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If your dog comes in with a 12 tag on him, he's going to get a free ride home. 13 MR. COLEMAN: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: If he doesn't have a tag on 15 him, he's going to be there at least 72 hours. 16 MR. COLEMAN: Where do people go to get their 17 licenses for their pet or their -- go to Animal Control? 18 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mm-hmm. 19 MAYOR SMITH: How about skunks? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Animal Control pick up a 21 skunk? 22 MR. COLEMAN: Or porcupines. 23 MR. HOFMANN: I think so. I think that's what the 24 contract says. 25 MAYOR SMITH: We were playing golf yesterday 8-9-06 jcc 116 1 morning; a skunk goes roaming across there about 25 feet from 2 us. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll put traps out for them. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Hear there was one in your 5 garage. 6 MAYOR SMITH: Yeah. 7 MR. COLEMAN: Paul, relative to our dead animal 8 control, our Solid Waste division, if we call them, they come 9 out. 10 MR. HOFMANN: Yes, sir. 11 MR. COLEMAN: As part of their contract. 12 MR. HOFMANN: We come out inside the city, and David 13 manages that for us. 14 MR. COLEMAN: Okay. And it's just that we're having 15 to continue to sustain that incremental part of this total 16 service, basically. 17 MR. HOFMANN: Yes, sir. 18 MR. BOCK: I'd like to comment. I had a citizen 19 call, and it pertains to the feral cat pickup. And, 20 understandably, that they don't pick them up, and if a citizen 21 in the city has a cat that needs to be trapped, they have the 22 cages available at the Animal Control Center. She had no way 23 of getting a cage and transporting a cage, and once the cat 24 was in the cage, had no way of transporting that cat to the 25 Animal Control. Is there some mechanism in there that a 8-9-06 jcc 117 1 citizen can have Animal Control bring that cage to them, and 2 then -- or if they can't bring the cage to them, can they pick 3 it up once the animal is in the cage? 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I'm afraid to answer that 5 question, 'cause I'm not sure I know the answer. I thought we 6 delivered the cages -- loaned them, but maybe you have to pick 7 them up. I don't know. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not in all cases. 9 Basically, we say we have them available. I've had a 10 situation with skunks around, people calling. They basically 11 say, "If we have traps available." If they're available, 12 'cause they -- they go out quickly. 13 MR. BOCK: Right, they're out a lot. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And if they're available, 15 then we ask you to come pick it up, sign out for the trap, 16 right. And then, once you -- 17 MR. MEEK: But I think -- 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bring it back in, animal and 19 all, or call us and we'll bring it back in, whatever. But we 20 have to have some kind of ability to trap. We're going to buy 21 some more this year, I believe, aren't we? 22 MR. BOCK: And I think the concern was, once the cat 23 -- or the animals were in the cage, they had -- they had no 24 way of transporting it at that time, and in their vehicle, 25 once the animal was in there, and getting it -- does the 8-9-06 jcc 118 1 service come out and pick that animal up once it's in the 2 cage? 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Probably so, yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think I heard that same 5 complaint you did. I don't know what we're -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think if they don't, they need 7 to. I mean, I don't -- I think the people could pick up the 8 trap. Transporting the animal back is a little bit scary. I 9 don't know -- that's something that needs to -- probably 10 should be. 11 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One thing about Animal 12 Control, is people get more emotional about pets than they do 13 about libraries, so complaints are something -- 14 MAYOR SMITH: I don't know about that. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Complaints are something 16 you have to deal with every day. Some of them are legitimate. 17 Most of them are not. 18 MR. COLEMAN: Well, Jonathan, relative to -- and I 19 didn't understand the portion of the budget where we have 20 credit coming relative to -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just -- my -- without having 22 the Auditor in here, I don't have our budget for the year. I 23 suspect that we're going to be a little bit under budget -- 24 under the budgeted amount in this year's expenditures. The 25 City's paying based on an estimated amount of 126,000. I 8-9-06 jcc 119 1 don't think our -- I think our budget's going to be less than 2 that, so I think the City should get a credit off of next 3 year's amount, of the amount that was not spent this year. I 4 think that should be carried forward. I don't know if the 5 agreement allows for that, but it should -- 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: It should. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: -- be done that way. 8 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Inequity. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's not a lot, 10 Commissioner. What I'm looking at, I'm looking at projected 11 year-end is only about $6,000 under the budgeted amount. So, 12 whatever. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I was thinking we were 14 understaffed out there for a couple months. Maybe not. 15 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: We were. We had some other 16 experiences that were larger than we -- sir? 17 MR. COLEMAN: I was going to ask how many employees, 18 just out of curiosity. 19 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Five. 20 MR. COLEMAN: Five? 21 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Mm-hmm. They're -- it's a 22 24/7 job. They're -- somebody's on call all the time, and 23 going out on weekends and nights is not -- not at all 24 uncommon. It's routine. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's a -- a department that we 8-9-06 jcc 120 1 made some changes several years ago in, and it is running much 2 smoother than -- you know, than it used to. It's running -- I 3 mean, we used to get quite a few complaints, and now we adopt 4 out most of the animals. You know, Bexar County's going 5 towards that no-kill facility, and I would suspect, if you 6 look at how that is defined, we're already a no-kill facility, 7 or very, very close. 8 MR. COLEMAN: This is kind of off the wall. What if 9 we transferred an old vehicle, a pickup that we were going to 10 take out of service, to you guys to use, be dedicated solely 11 for dead animal pickup? Is that something that might could be 12 worked into the program? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Mm-hmm. There's some sort of a 14 credit -- a value of it, adjustment. 15 MR. COLEMAN: Well, and I would -- to add that -- 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If we need it. I mean, I don't 17 know if we need it. 18 MR. COLEMAN: I mean, to be able to add that service 19 back to our contract, dead animal pickup. 20 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: One that wouldn't have to 21 be decontaminated. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Depends -- I mean, I'm not sure. 23 I don't think we'd want to get something with 280,000 miles on 24 it, but if it's got, like 110 -- it depends. 25 MR. COLEMAN: Serviceable. I think what I heard 8-9-06 jcc 121 1 earlier is that that is one of the issues; you have one or two 2 vehicles that you have to use for live animals, and if you had 3 a pickup that was dedicated to strictly dead animal pickup, 4 maybe -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I see what you're saying. 6 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think Road and Bridge 7 might possibly be more interested in that than Animal Control 8 would be, working out a deal with that sort of thing. 9 MAYOR SMITH: What happens to the carcass? Is it 10 going out to the landfill? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Landfill. 12 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: Cost's gone down a little 13 bit there recently. We worked out a deal not to have to pay 14 those fees that we've been paying all this time. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know. I mean, how many 16 -- I guess the Street Department could say. How many dead 17 animal calls are there in the city? I mean, that's something 18 we just have to look at. 19 MR. COLEMAN: There he is. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He just happens to be handy? 21 MR. MCKENZIE: From October 4th of '05 to 7-1-06, we 22 had pickup of dead animals, 434, which ranges from a deer, 23 cat, possum, squirrel, raccoon, dog, skunk, a porcupine, 24 rabbit, armadillo, emu, buzzards, snake, and a pig. Those are 25 dead animals within the city limits. 8-9-06 jcc 122 1 MR. HASTINGS: What about the decontamination? How 2 do you resolve that? 3 MR. MCKENZIE: How do we deal with that? We 4 purchased -- actually purchased two totes from Lowes that are, 5 like, 60-gallon with a lid, and actually we'll put the dead 6 animal in there. Of course, if it's a deer, we'll break the 7 legs in and seal it. And then we just decontaminate the 8 actual container, as opposed to the whole vehicle. And we 9 have two of those containers. And those were only, I think, 10 $24 each, something like that. And then we have a -- we've 11 got with the Health Department; we have a little sprayer 12 that's used for vegetation. Instead of that, we put Clorox in 13 there, two or three capfuls with water. Then we have another 14 one with soap, and we'll spray the area where we're at. Of 15 course, we have lime. And also, what that container has 16 allowed us to do is, when we go to a residence that actually 17 it's on their property soil, we actually pick up the soil with 18 the animal that has maggots and other things, and pick up a 19 little extra and take that extra soil, so it reduces the odor 20 a lot better for the residents. So, we've gotten that 21 compliment a lot, that the odor doesn't linger on. 22 COMMISSIONER NICHOLSON: I think maybe what we 23 should do is to get you together with Len Odom, our Road and 24 Bridge Administrator, and see if there's any interest in -- in 25 accommodating the City at some price. 8-9-06 jcc 123 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Have we kicked the dead animals 2 around enough? Okay. What else? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, the only 4 issue, I think, left on that is, do you want us -- do you want 5 the County to pursue having the Road and Bridge Department 6 looking at picking up dead animals? 7 MR. HOFMANN: I'll look to my Council for direction 8 there. You're offering that as an additional cost that we 9 didn't budget for. 10 MR. BOCK: I would like to get that cost. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. Are we done? If 12 not, I have one item left, which is a -- sort of a joint 13 venture type thing. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Bring it on. 15 MR. MEEK: I have another one after yours. 16 MR. GROSS: I have one, too. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. Water. I'm going to 18 switch to wearing my Region J chair hat for a moment and 19 announce one thing. On September 30th, there will be a public 20 hearing -- or public meeting, I should say, in Kerrville 21 relating to the scope of work development for the next 22 two-year plan. And everyone's, of course, invited to that. 23 The second part is that prior to that meeting -- and I'll 24 probably try to get something out by Monday at the latest -- 25 there will be an invitation to -- for lack of another word, 8-9-06 jcc 124 1 just a Kerr County scope of work-slash-water forum, of which 2 we'll be inviting representatives from the city that serve on 3 the Region J and others. I mean, if others come, I don't 4 know. Maybe it could be -- I don't -- the intent is not to 5 have it be a full City Council meeting, but certainly others 6 are welcome to listen. Also, myself from the county and 7 Region J, all of the other representatives from Kerr County on 8 Region J; I think it's five or six others, and then also 9 U.G.R.A., Headwaters, some of those. Basically, all of the 10 players with water, it fits into. Kerr County needs to, one, 11 work on the scope of work, what we want done by the county for 12 Region J, which is funded by the state, and also it's a good 13 opportunity to bring up kind of where we're going as -- you 14 know, outside of Region J as well. As an example of an item 15 that we're -- the County is currently working with U.G.R.A. on 16 a little bit -- I've mentioned this to Carl since he's the 17 water liaison. The County has, through a memorandum of 18 understanding, a certain amount of water -- 8,000 acre feet, 19 Bill? 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: 6,000. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 6,000 acre feet M.O.U. with 22 G.B.R.A. that we were able to negotiate several years back. 23 It's kind of sitting out there, and I think, you know, 24 U.G.R.A.'s interested in looking at trying to figure out a way 25 to firm up some of that. And the offer's also out to the 8-9-06 jcc 125 1 City. The County does not hope to get into the water 2 purveying business, but certainly, with that amount of water 3 or acre feet of water out there, we need to try to get that 4 locked up best we can in the county, do anything we can to 5 facilitate, put the pressure on G.B.R.A. to get that water 6 used in Kerr County. So, it'll be -- I'll announce it by 7 Monday with a date, talk to a few people, and kind of have a 8 water forum. I think the timing is good. We get more 9 interest in droughts, and we're certainly in a drought in my 10 part of the county right now. And -- but also, it's very 11 important for both the -- I think for all entities in the 12 county with the scope of work being developed right now for 13 the next two-year cycle. That's all I have. 14 MR. MEEK: All right. I had an issue that I wanted 15 to make sure the County is aware of. Back when the City did a 16 comprehensive plan, part of the thoroughfare plan included a 17 high bridge that would impact County-owned property. 18 Basically, it would either go right through the State Arts and 19 Crafts Fair pavilion, or right next to it, from 27, a high 20 bridge across the lake over to Bandera Highway. Preliminary 21 estimates, $10 million to construct this, and it's only 22 four-tenths of a mile from an existing high water bridge at 23 the state park -- well, now the Kerrville-Schreiner Park. And 24 it's something I'd like to see removed from our thoroughfare 25 plan, and I would just like to hear from the County. I would 8-9-06 jcc 126 1 be surprised if the County Commissioners wanted an arterial 2 road going through their property that close to another high 3 bridge. Just love to hear some feedback. It may assist us to 4 eliminate that from our thoroughfare plan. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Let me speak first, 'cause I was 6 chair of that subcommittee on the comprehensive plan. The 7 intent of that was that the -- not that location. My 8 recollection was it was further out, near Brinks Crossing. 9 The idea was that there was -- it was felt that at some point 10 way down in the future, it is likely going to be needed to 11 connect the interstate all the way down through 27, outside of 12 534. 13 MR. MEEK: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The secondary road needs -- some 15 kind of a thoroughfare needs to go through there. To do that, 16 you kind of need to use Spur 100, because -- just trying to 17 use existing right-of-ways as much as possible. And the idea 18 was that you come out there and probably kick out, was my 19 recollection -- kick out further towards Brinks Crossing, tie 20 in through River Road back over to 173, and possibly then tie 21 into lower Turtle Creek Road. So that's where that came in, I 22 think, after meeting after meeting going over these maps, and 23 I think the -- it's more the intent of a thoroughfare out in 24 that direction as opposed to that location. I have no problem 25 saying that that's not a good location, 'cause I don't think 8-9-06 jcc 127 1 it is, but I think that it's really -- the thoroughfare plan, 2 that was the rationale that went into that, was a -- a 3 long-term needing something out in that direction. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm glad you referenced it, 5 Councilman, but I think I agree with you that that is probably 6 something that should be removed. There's going to be a 7 presentation at Commissioners Court on Monday by Martin 8 Marietta. I put it on the agenda; they're going to do a Power 9 Point presentation with respect to their plan for additional 10 mining, okay? Now, the piece of property that they're going 11 to talk to us about is right across from the airport, and at 12 the tail end of that discussion, I'm going to point out for 13 the Commissioners Court, using their Power Points, how -- if 14 we look ahead to the future, how we could do another crossing 15 and tie together Highway 27 to Highway 173, and have it -- 16 have it put into Airport Loop Road. Now -- and the reason I'm 17 using Martin Marietta's presentation on Monday is because 18 they're going to have the graphics up there. But we need to 19 be thinking ahead. With the growth of the city and the growth 20 of the county going both south and east, we need to be 21 thinking about how people get where they need to go. And with 22 the -- with our hope for long-term progress with the airport 23 and the growth of the airport, that, too, lends itself into 24 this equation. So, I'm going to have an opportunity to show 25 Commissioners where it might be beneficial for us to be 8-9-06 jcc 128 1 thinking ahead for another crossing, and that crossing would 2 take us from the airport across through Brinks Crossing, and 3 through Brinks Crossing and go on out and tie in 173. Be 4 happy to invite you to come see all that on Monday. 5 MR. MEEK: That is what time? 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's scheduled for 9:15. 7 I'm just tying onto their presentation. What they're going to 8 talk with the County about is increased mining operations. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Based on that location, which is 10 clearly in the ETJ, does the City have -- the City may want to 11 -- I mean, the County doesn't -- we don't have a whole lot of 12 authority when it comes to this. The City may want to -- I 13 don't know if you have any authority in that area or not, but 14 if you do, y'all may want to attend it. 15 MAYOR SMITH: We have a budget meeting that morning. 16 MR. HOFMANN: Yes, we do. 17 MAYOR SMITH: So we will not be able to attend. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're not going to learn a 19 great deal more there than what I just told you, because we're 20 just going to be talking to the Court and taking it out to the 21 public. But I had the opportunity, with Leonard Odom of our 22 Road and Bridge, to meet with Mike Coward just to lay out the 23 basic idea, and the State is always interested in ways to tie 24 its major thoroughfares, and this is one way of -- and it is 25 far enough removed from the other crossing, which is Loop 534, 8-9-06 jcc 129 1 so as not to give them a lot of concern about having crossings 2 too close together. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's about where the intent 4 was to put the crossing. 5 MR. COLEMAN: Would they be interested in doing a 6 traffic flow study? 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We've done a traffic flow 8 study, which I have. Road and Bridge did it of C.P. River 9 Road and Wharton Road, and basically from Sutherland to 10 Highway 173 up C.P. River Road as it meanders through there. 11 And one of the things that's really important in this whole 12 equation is the increased volume of traffic, both truck 13 traffic and vehicle -- and automobile traffic. Truck traffic 14 out there is eating up that county road; I can tell you that 15 right now, because of the nature of the vehicles that are 16 coming out of -- all that material out of all those pits and 17 so forth, absolutely tearing up that road. But the long-term 18 growth of the city and the county going in that direction, and 19 hope -- and hopefully, when we -- if and when we get a sewer 20 system in Center Point and that blossoms, we do need to think 21 about another crossing, and that's not a bad place to think 22 about it. 23 MR. MEEK: Sounds good. Did any of the other 24 Commissioners want to weigh in on the idea of an arterial 25 going through the pavilion on your property? Is anyone in 8-9-06 jcc 130 1 favor of that? 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'd rather not do that. 3 MR. MEEK: Pardon? 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would rather not do it. 5 MR. MEEK: Or right next to it. 6 MAYOR SMITH: Rather impractical, that's for sure. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Highly impractical. That just 8 doesn't make sense if you've got the high bridge there at 534, 9 just, you know, less than a mile away. 10 MR. MEEK: That should help us remove it from the 11 thoroughfare plan. Thank you, gentlemen. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Gross, you had something you 13 wanted to -- 14 MR. GROSS: Yes. Just for the terminally slow, 15 which would be me, exactly where did we leave the fire 16 agreement? 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I left it at 125. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, we left it -- I left it 19 at 125. 20 MR. GROSS: Is that where we want to leave it? 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think Mr. Hofmann was going to 22 look at it and come back with a different number, possibly. 23 But, I mean, it -- 24 MR. HOFMANN: To look at your suggestion about cost 25 associated with the volunteer departments in the county. When 8-9-06 jcc 131 1 you -- when you asked that, were you thinking in terms of the 2 Fiscal '07 budget? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't know, to be honest. It 4 depends on -- it gets into a very complicated issue to look at 5 that this quick, because I think -- I mean, I don't even know 6 how you tackle that task. First, I think you have to -- I 7 mean, I don't know how you do it. So, it depends -- that's 8 more a question as to -- I don't know. My gut feeling is that 9 if we want to look at the fire protection county-wide, that 10 can't be done -- and really where we're going and what's a 11 formula to make that work, that can't be done in -- in a 12 month. So -- but maybe it can. And I guess -- I mean, my 13 recommendation -- I mean, you know, I'm not the one doing the 14 work, but my recommendation would be to leave it as it is this 15 year. Let's have some time to really look at it, how -- you 16 know, what our philosophies are on fire protection 17 county-wide. Because I think the -- the City's way of looking 18 at it is far different than mine, and far different than the 19 volunteer fire departments are -- are giving us the feedback. 20 I see that the City may want to provide -- look at 21 it as if they're providing backup services, and it's their -- 22 or not backup; they're providing service throughout the whole 23 county, but the volunteer fire departments really don't look 24 at it that way. They look at it like when they're needed, 25 they're right there, and they're very happy to do that, or 8-9-06 jcc 132 1 they're glad if the city is able to respond. But for the most 2 part, I think that if it's -- if that's a huge dollar figure 3 and if we give the volunteer fire departments a choice, "Okay, 4 excluding disaster time, would you rather have us fund the 5 city for backup or give you more money for backup?" They're 6 going to say, "Give us more money." In which case, I -- 7 that's directionally what I'm hearing, is that our fire 8 departments in the county don't want the City to be the 9 backup, except in emergency situations. And I think that's 10 covered. 11 MR. MEEK: Quick question about -- what about the 12 census? Have you taken a poll there, as opposed to -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The volunteer fire departments 14 have a pretty good pulse on the citizens in their area, has 15 been my feeling. But, no, I have not asked the citizens, but 16 the volunteer fire departments are made up of volunteers, so 17 it's a pretty good representation. And they know, you know, 18 how the funding mechanism works for their department. Now, 19 that goes back to the issue of Kerrville South. And, in any 20 case, Kerrville South, in all actuality, is also Kerrville 21 North. That's a different issue that we have wrestled with 22 quite a bit with the Commissioners Court as to what is the 23 best way to provide fire service to those areas. Because I 24 think I share Commissioner Baldwin's feeling that the 25 agreement makes us feel real good, but is it really a huge 8-9-06 jcc 133 1 help? Because of the -- trying to use a city truck to fight a 2 rural fire. I mean, you've got a very limited amount of water 3 there, until we get backups in from primarily either our Road 4 and Bridge Department or the volunteer fire departments. So, 5 I think there's a -- you know, clearly, the City responds and 6 fulfills the operation of the contract, but for $125,000, or 7 now going up to possibly $350,000, is that money better spent 8 on the county jump-starting a volunteer fire department in 9 Kerrville South and only relying on the city of Kerrville for 10 disaster-type assistance? And through a mutual aid agreement. 11 So, that's kind of -- does that answer your question? I think 12 it's more than one -- I personally think it's more than a 13 four-week project, but we can try to do it that quick. 14 MR. GROSS: Can we do it? 15 MR. HOFMANN: Certainly try. 16 MR. GROSS: I think we should. I'm done. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: What else we got to throw out here on 18 the table? The last agenda item -- 19 MR. COLEMAN: Airport was on our list as well, but 20 that's pretty well taken care of through our Airport Board. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Airport Board. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: On that, I can say the 24 Commissioners Court so far has agreed -- I mean, is going 25 along with the recommendation of the Airport Board. Whatever 8-9-06 jcc 134 1 that number is is what's in the budget. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: That's plugged in. The last item is 3 to schedule a date for a joint meeting of the Commissioners 4 Court and the City Council. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the toughest one of 6 all. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: May be. Could be. What are we 8 looking at in a time frame down the road? Number one, what -- 9 are we going to try and look at this issue on -- on volunteer 10 fire department support capacity? If so, that's going to 11 dictate when we need to have this thing. We got two or three 12 other issues that are hanging out here that -- 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, so we don't miss 14 something, how about if you get with Mr. Hofmann and develop a 15 schedule? 'Cause it seems to me that there's certain -- 16 several timelines need to be built on a number of these 17 things. Just one thing that can reasonably be done in, I 18 think, a little bit of time, just to -- you know, library, 19 that's one; that's going to be one timeline. Fire is going to 20 be another one; possibly, you know, a long time line, possibly 21 a very short timeline. But y'all get together and kind of 22 come up with a schedule so that we don't miss something, 23 trying to go back through our notes. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: That might be a good idea. I don't 25 think, until we know what -- what's going to be on the next 8-9-06 jcc 135 1 plate, that we can determine when we ought to do it, because 2 there's -- some of those things are going to take a while. Is 3 that acceptable to you, Mr. Hofmann? 4 MR. HOFMANN: Oh, absolutely. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Okay. Well, we'll do that. 6 Anything else from any member of the Commissioners Court that 7 we need to thrash around today on? If not, Commissioners 8 Court will be adjourned. 9 MAYOR SMITH: City Council will be adjourned also. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good meeting. 11 (Joint meeting was adjourned at 12:18 p.m.) 12 - - - - - - - - - - - 13 STATE OF TEXAS | 14 COUNTY OF KERR | 15 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 16 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my 17 capacity as County Clerk of the Commissioners Court 18 of Kerr County, Texas, at the time and place 19 heretofore set forth. 20 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 16th day of 21 August, 2006. 22 23 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 24 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 25 Certified Shorthand Reporter 8-9-06 jcc