1 2 3 4 5 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 6 and 7 HEADWATERS GROUNDWATER CONSERVATION DISTRICT 8 Water Availability Joint Workshop 9 Monday, January 22, 2007 10 2:00 p.m. 11 District Courtroom Number 2 12 Kerr County Courthouse 13 Kerrville, Texas 14 15 16 17 18 COMMISSIONERS COURT: 19 Pat Tinley, Kerr County Judge H. A. "Buster" Baldwin, Commissioner Pct. 1 20 William "Bill" Williams, Commissioner Pct. 2 Jonathan Letz, Commissioner Pct. 3 21 Bruce Oehler, Commissioner Pct. 4 22 HEADWATERS GROUNDWATER CONSERVATION DISTRICT: 23 Gordon Morgan, Precinct 1 Mary Ellen Summerlin, Precinct 2 24 Diane McMann, Precinct 3 John Elliott, Precinct 4 25 Jim Hayes, At Large 2 1 On Monday, January 22, 2007, at 2:00 p.m., a joint 2 workshop of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and Headwaters 3 Groundwater Conservation District was held in District 4 Courtroom #2, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, Texas, and 5 the following proceedings were had in open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 MS. SUMMERLIN: Ladies and gentlemen, I think it's 8 2 o'clock. May we come to order, please? Thank you. 9 Welcome, and thank you very much for coming. This is a joint 10 workshop of the Kerr County Commissioners Court and the Board 11 of the Headwaters GroundWater Conservation District, and so I 12 need to call the roll. Judge Pat Tinley? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Here. 14 MS. SUMMERLIN: Commissioner Buster Baldwin? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Here. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Bill Williams? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Here. 18 MS. SUMMERLIN: Commissioner Jonathan Letz? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Here. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Bruce Oehler? 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'm here. 22 MS. SUMMERLIN: And for Headwaters, Precinct 1, 23 Gordon Morgan? 24 MR. MORGAN: Here. 25 MS. SUMMERLIN: Precinct 2, Mary Ellen Summerlin, 1-22-07 wk 3 1 here. Precinct 3, Diane McMann? 2 MS. McMANN: Here. 3 MS. SUMMERLIN: Precinct 4, John Elliott? 4 MR. ELLIOTT: Here. 5 MS. SUMMERLIN: And at large, Jim Hayes? 6 MR. HAYES: Here. 7 MS. SUMMERLIN: Thank you. All present. Then, 8 since we have a quorum present and the meeting has been posted 9 in accordance with the law, I'll declare it in order. I want 10 to welcome all of you again. We didn't expect near this big a 11 crowd, and I really appreciate your coming out for this. 12 We -- this is the general way it will work. We'll have a 13 presentation by Feather Wilson, Headwaters geologist and 14 hydrologist, and then we'll have responses from this panel, 15 and then we'll have questions from you. So, during all this, 16 we'll have cards and pencils passed out, and I hope you'll 17 write your questions. To save time and keep from having 18 repetition, I'd like you to write your questions, pass them to 19 the end of the aisle; we'll bring them up here, and that way I 20 can read them into the microphone, everybody can hear them, 21 and they can be recorded appropriately. 22 Let me introduce the panel before I introduce 23 Feather Wilson. John Ashworth is a professional geoscientist, 24 a senior associate with LBG Guyton and Associates. They 25 aren't exactly in the order in which they're seated. George 1-22-07 wk 4 1 Ozuna is the San Antonio Office Chief of the Geological 2 Survey. Andy Donnelly is a professional geoscientist and 3 hydrologist for the Texas Water Development Board. Ali 4 Chowdhury is a Ph.D., a professional geoscientist and 5 hydrologist from the Texas Water Development Board. Paul 6 Tybor is a professional geoscientist, General Manager of the 7 Hill Country Underground Water Conservation District based in 8 Fredericksburg. Ron Fieseler is a professional geoscientist, 9 General Manager of the Blanco-Pedernales Groundwater 10 Conservation District based in Johnson City. And David 11 Jeffery is a professional geoscientist and General Manager of 12 the Bandera County River Authority and Groundwater District. 13 Let me see if I forgot anything. Oh, there's one 14 more little note that I'd like to make. We -- we printed 15 handouts that follow the Power Point presentation, but we only 16 printed 50 copies, so please share them with your neighbors. 17 And when -- as the meeting ends, if you'll leave us your name 18 and address, we'll print more up and get one to you if you 19 think it's something you'd like to save. I think that's all 20 the housekeeping. I'd like to introduce now Feathergail 21 Wilson, professional geoscientist who works for the Headwaters 22 Groundwater Conservation District. We have had an ongoing 23 contract with him for two years to build a groundwater 24 availability model for just Kerr County. Feather? 25 MR. WILSON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 1-22-07 wk 5 1 Thank you for coming. I have a brief presentation from a very 2 complex subject. First of all, I'd like to say that 3 Headwaters was created in 1991 through the legislative 4 process. It's one of 89 groundwater districts throughout the 5 state. Right now, we have 90 counties that don't have 6 groundwater districts out of 254 counties. The primary goal 7 of Headwaters is groundwater conservation. It consists -- the 8 board consists of five elected members, four employees, and 9 one geological consultant, namely myself. Headwaters 10 priorities include groundwater research in Kerr County, 11 long-range planning, policy decisions based upon science and 12 data, Groundwater conservation, of course. Public education 13 is a big aspect of this, and cooperation and coordination with 14 surrounding counties, the state, and federal agencies. 15 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 16 MR. WILSON: Excuse me. Glad you reminded me. I 17 don't know what's happening. Something always goes wrong in 18 these talks. At any rate, what we've been doing is doing a 19 lot of very detailed research. When I say detailed research, 20 I mean research about drilling wells. Headwaters actually 21 drills their own monitoring wells. We've drilled seven thus 22 far entirely through the cretaceous system, which is the total 23 section here in the county. We're drilling, on average, about 24 three monitoring wells per year. We're also performing our 25 own pump tests with our own pump. We actually are pump 1-22-07 wk 6 1 testing not only the wells that we drill, but other people's 2 wells too, to get the information that we need to go into a 3 model. 4 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 5 MR. WILSON: Before we get into our goals and our 6 priorities and how we're doing, I'd like to give you a little 7 background information on groundwater, how the water gets into 8 the subsurface, how it flows through the subsurface. We've 9 got a slide on the screen now called "The Water Cycle." The 10 water that we get in our county is derived from rainfall, dew, 11 and ice and snow lately, and that water stays in the 12 atmosphere from the Gulf of Mexico and from the Pacific Ocean; 13 most likely the Pacific Ocean in the recent past because of El 14 Niņo. Stays in the atmosphere about two weeks, then it falls 15 to the surface. Some of that water that falls to the surface 16 on the western side of our county is from and goes into what's 17 called the Edwards group of limestones. That Edwards group is 18 a -- is a cavernous, cavernous sponge, so it's an unconfined 19 aquifer, which means it's not confined by anything. The water 20 table is right near the -- near the top of this, and there's 21 nothing between the water surface and the atmosphere. 22 But most of our water that we have in wells comes 23 from below something that's a blanket of -- a layer of clay 24 250 feet thick below the Edwards, and that's called the Upper 25 Glen Rose. The Upper Glen Rose is a confining unit. In other 1-22-07 wk 7 1 words, most of our wells, except for the Edwards wells, are in 2 this confined system of aquifers. That's what we're going to 3 talk about. Despite the fact that two-thirds of Kerr County 4 is covered by the Edwards, and the rest of the county is 5 covered by the Upper Glen Rose, which is the blanket of clay, 6 most of our wells are in the lower units, such as the Hensel, 7 the Cow Creek, the Lower Trinity, also known as the Hosston, 8 H-o-s-s-t-o-n. The confining units, confining -- there are 9 two confining units within that sequence of aquifers. One is 10 called the Hammett/Sligo, which is a very -- very strong, very 11 effective confining unit. Water moves through it, but very, 12 very slowly. In the Edwards, probably the age of the water is 13 going to be 400, 500 years old, hundreds of years. We have 14 been doing isotope studies in the confined units, and they 15 vary in age from 20,000 to 28,000 years old. Water is very 16 old in this county in the confined units. 17 Another view of the water cycle shows both rainfall 18 entering the surface on an unconfined unit, such as the 19 Edwards, going into the streams -- our streams. We have very 20 strong springs. Our springs average -- for the last 70 years, 21 they've averaged 164 cubic feet per second, which is a lot of 22 water running down the streams each day. The city of 23 Kerrville uses a lot of that water for the city, for the city 24 system. And that is a good thing, 'cause it's taking a lot of 25 pressure off the aquifers. But we also have something called 1-22-07 wk 8 1 evapotranspiration. In this county, we have 61 inches of 2 evapotranspiration per year. We only have 30 inches of 3 rainfall on average, which means we have a two and a half foot 4 deficit of evaporation, evapotranspiration each year in 5 comparison to the rainfall. That means we're in a very 6 definite semi-arid area, and so conservation is a big issue. 7 You might wonder about your water levels. A lot of 8 people's wells have dropped 80 feet, 100 feet this year. And 9 the wells that I'm talking about are the wells within the 10 confined units. Rainfall recharges the outcrop, really, in 11 the confined units, not in this county. Rainfall recharges 12 from Gillespie and Kimble Counties, primarily. And what 13 happens is that the water molecules don't move very fast when 14 it recharges. It dries up during the dry years, which you've 15 had two years of, until very recently. And it gets wet -- the 16 outcrop gets very wet during good years, which we have several 17 good years, previous good years. But the water ages that we 18 produce from are still thousands and thousands of years old. 19 So, how does your water level rise? Your water 20 level rises -- you can see from this slide at the top, when 21 it's dry, the outcrop over in Fredericksburg, Junction and 22 that area, it takes the pressure off the water levels of -- in 23 addition to the fact that you're pumping it. When it gets 24 wet, that pressure pushes on that whole column of water, that 25 whole system of water, and when that pressure increases from 1-22-07 wk 9 1 the outcrop, and during a good year, it rises. The pressure 2 rises. So, your water levels are really a manifestation of 3 pressure rather than water molecules themselves moving down 4 gradient. At the outcrop, Paul Tybor, one of the panelists 5 here, discovered that his water at Fredericksburg in those 6 sands that feed all the confined aquifers in this county was 7 100 years old. Thirty miles away at the Johnson Creek R.V. 8 Park on 27, the water proved to be 25,880 years old. So, that 9 water is moving very, very slowly. It's moving. All water is 10 moving. But it's moving extremely slowly. 11 So, that blanket of water -- that blanket of clay 12 that overlies the county and underlies the Edwards, which 13 is -- again, is the Upper Glen Rose, doesn't really allow much 14 water to get into the -- into the underlying confined 15 aquifers. Most of that water runs off. So, our water is not 16 coming into those aquifers from this county; it's coming in 17 from adjacent counties. Except for the Edwards; the Edwards 18 is local. Locally derived water, and it's also water derived 19 from the west, primarily, and the southwest from Real and 20 Edwards County for the Edwards group of limestones. So, a 21 confined aquifer -- uh-oh. Confined aquifer is an aquifer 22 that has a pressure surface that goes up and down with what 23 happens near the outcrop or where the sands are. You're 24 familiar with the sands of the L.B.J. Ranch and the peach 25 trees. That's where -- that's where the Hensel outcrops. 1-22-07 wk 10 1 That's where we get most of our water from in the confined 2 units. 3 I'll just go on. Groundwater management. We want 4 to know several things. We have to ask ourselves several 5 questions. How much groundwater exists in this county? Where 6 is it? Is it a finite resource? If it's 28,000 years old, as 7 far as mankind is concerned, it is a finite resource. Are 8 there areas of the county where groundwater is depleting? The 9 answer is yes. Are there areas in the county where 10 groundwater is plentiful? The answer is yes. It's 11 site-specific. So, how should we conserve groundwater? How 12 should we approach the conservation issue? These are some of 13 the questions and some of the things we want to achieve. And 14 what is the recipe for groundwater management? Where do we 15 start to unravel the mysteries of, really, the subsurface, and 16 how do we set policy based upon science in deference to 17 arm-waving? It's not a simple answer. These are complex 18 questions and complex answers. 19 There's a -- a spectrum of -- a yield spectrum in 20 your notes, and we can either go and pump all the water out of 21 the ground and leave nothing there, at one end of the 22 spectrum, or we cannot pump any water out, or we can try to 23 reach a conservation point or sustainability point somewhere 24 in between. That's not my job; that's the job of policy 25 makers. And the yield spectrum -- if you have water, for 1-22-07 wk 11 1 example, in the unconfined areas, such as the Edwards, a safe 2 yield would be recharge versus discharge. We don't want to 3 discharge any more than we recharge. Sustainable yield might 4 be to the -- to the right of that, something that we want to 5 sustain the springs, we want to sustain the river flow, the 6 economy of the county. So, it wouldn't be just a safe -- a 7 safe yield; it would be a sustainable yield. That's 8 particularly true with the Edwards formation. It's not 9 necessarily true of the units below that. The un -- the 10 confined units -- there is a problem, because if we continue 11 to produce water at higher and higher rates with more and more 12 wells, we will reach a point where we have to face the fact 13 that we say to ourselves, "How much do we want to mine?" And 14 in terms of mankind, not in terms of geologic time. It will 15 recharge, but if it's 28,000 years old, how long is it going 16 to take for us to mine that water out? That depends on 17 population and economy, fuel costs, people move here or don't 18 move here. 19 If you look at the Texas population, Texas 20 population is to double over the next 40 years, 50 years. 21 We're now at 23 million. We'll be at 46 million in 2050. 22 Kerr County has tracked the growth of Texas almost on a -- a 23 percentage-by-percentage basis up to this point. The Texas 24 Water Development Board, as I understand it, believes that 25 this county -- this county's population will decline or level 1-22-07 wk 12 1 off in 2030. I don't believe that, but topographers say it 2 will, because the Baby Boomers are going to pass on and then 3 nobody else is going to move back to Kerr County. Well, and 4 that's true of many rural counties. That's the way they look 5 at all the rural counties. Well, I don't look at it that way. 6 I think it'll continue to track the State's population, and by 7 the time 2050 rolls around, we'll have 86,000 people in this 8 county, rather than 40-some-odd thousand. And in Region J, 9 under Jonathan Letz' leadership, we had to borrow population 10 from other counties in order to bring our county up to -- this 11 county up to what it was, what we think it's going to be, 12 'cause none of us believed that it was going to decline. 13 Those are -- those are observations that you can either think 14 about or disagree with. I -- I would say that we're not going 15 to decline. These tough questions we're trying to answer 16 require really flexible answers. Thank you. And the concept 17 of groundwater moving through the subsurface -- 18 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 19 MR. WILSON: The concept of groundwater moving 20 through the subsurface, it falls into the realm of the occult 21 for most people, and most people don't really understand 22 groundwater. Some people think "groundwater" means water on 23 the ground. It means water under the ground, and it is very, 24 very complex. So, in order to get at how groundwater moves, 25 you have to really understand the plumbing of the subsurface, 1-22-07 wk 13 1 thoroughly understand the plumbing of the subsurface. And a 2 groundwater model that we're creating, which is called a GAM, 3 is only as good as the data you put into it, only as good as 4 the interpretation you make, the amount of data and the 5 quality of data that you have on hand. That's not to say that 6 it's not a dynamic model. It is. This numerical model can be 7 added to, changed, edited, et cetera, through time. But it's 8 -- nevertheless, you have to start with an extremely thorough 9 understanding of the subsurface. 10 And two years ago, we began to work on this. Not 11 the model itself. The models -- this is part of the model -- 12 part of the model process. You have to really get into the 13 geology. That means drilling wells. That means monitoring 14 wells. That means making cross-sections like you saw a while 15 ago. We made many cross-sections of many maps, 36 primary 16 maps, by hand, and many more maps -- sketch maps, et cetera, 17 cross-sections beyond that, many of which are available at our 18 head office -- at the Headwaters office here, if you're 19 interested, as 8 1/2-by-11 handouts. Those maps on the -- on 20 the wall are available as handouts. You can see the logs over 21 here on the left. That's a lithologic log on the left and a 22 geophysical log on the right. All of the cross-sections that 23 I've made for the county, they're all based upon both 24 geophysical logs and lithologic logs. That means I actually 25 went to the wells while they were drilling, used a microscope 1-22-07 wk 14 1 and described the samples every 10 feet, plus geophysically 2 logged -- I'll show you. I'll talk more about that in a 3 minute. 4 So, a GAM, or a groundwater availability model, 5 requires a lot of this preliminary information gathering and 6 interpretation, and it requires a lot of drilling wells. See 7 that cross-section? It's on the -- on the slide now, so how 8 -- the first step, actually, in -- in getting to a groundwater 9 model, getting into the -- into the geometry of the model 10 itself, is to have monitoring wells. And I don't mean just 11 using people's wells that we've already had. It means 12 drilling wells, which we've -- we've done. It means examining 13 those samples, and in great detail. It means performing and 14 running geophysical logs. Some of you geologists in the 15 audience know what that is. Others don't. I'll explain that 16 in a minute. It requires age-dating the water to find out how 17 fast the water is moving and where it is coming from. We're 18 in the midst of that right now. It involves pump tests. 19 Headwaters bought their own pump and is performing their own 20 pump tests, because we don't have any other data. We have to 21 do it ourselves, so we are doing that. And we will pump test 22 people's wells, private wells, public wells. We get that 23 data, and it goes into our model. We're now monitoring 22 24 wells, of which seven we have drilled ourselves. 25 This is an elevation model called a digital 1-22-07 wk 15 1 elevation model. It's part of the GAM process. A digital 2 elevation model is a very detailed elevation model. It stands 3 at the top of the layer of a GAM model. It's very important 4 to have a good -- a good model -- detailed model. If you'll 5 look at the red areas, the red areas are the high elevations. 6 It goes down to the yellows and the greens, and finally the 7 blues; those are the lower elevations to the eastern side of 8 the county. This surface in Kerr County developed over the 9 last six and a half million years. The area was uplifted 10 during an era called the Miocene. That uplift then began to 11 erode, and creating all these verdant valleys that we see 12 today, and it's still eroding, still making valleys. This map 13 is available at the Headwaters office. 14 Kerr County was a Cretaceous sea 144 million years 15 ago up until about 99 million years ago. That sea was 16 surrounding a very big island complex called the Llano Uplift 17 or the Llano Island area. Most of the sands and the gravels 18 within our aquifers are derived from the Llano Uplift, and 19 these are -- these are -- we have mostly -- most of our 20 aquifers are sands and gravels. We have one carbonate aquifer 21 in the confined units that's known as the Cow Creek, but even 22 the Cow Creek is sand in many areas. The Edwards is our main 23 carbonate or limestone aquifer, and it's not a high-yield 24 aquifer, except for the springs. The springs are very 25 high-yielding. So, there was a barrier reef, like the Great 1-22-07 wk 16 1 Barrier Reef of Australia, that extended from the Yucatan 2 Peninsula all the way around to the Carolinas that encased 3 this huge, massive lagoon that we lived in. You could 4 literally wade from island to island during that period of 5 time. That is, if you could get away from the dinosaurs. 6 There are a lot of dinosaur tracks in this county. 7 Looking at the stratigraphy in a very tidy 8 fashion -- believe me, it's not this tidy, but in a tidy 9 fashion, you can see that the Edwards, the Glen Rose, the 10 Pearsall and Sligo, the Hosston are all formations. Notice to 11 the right-hand side, you'll see the Trinity nomenclature. 12 Trinity nomenclature is a nomenclature that's frequently used 13 in the water business, but not in the oil business any more. 14 You can see why. For example, the Middle Trinity incorporates 15 the Lower Glen Rose, the Hensel, the Cow Creek, and the 16 Hammett. All of those units are accounted for in my model. 17 All of the units -- all of the aquifers are accounted for. 18 The main producing aquifers we have in the county are the 19 Edwards, the Lower Glen Rose, the Hensel, the Cow Creek, and 20 the Hosston. 21 Many of you know these terms as Middle Trinity or 22 Lower Trinity, but Middle Trinity and Lower Trinity is a broad 23 term, covers many different aquifers with many different 24 parameters, so I don't generally use those terms. But they 25 are commonly used in water literature. There's very little 1-22-07 wk 17 1 water in the Upper Glen Rose. They're minor limestones. And 2 the Hosston/Sligo really doesn't amount to much in this county 3 either, because it's only confined to the southeast corner of 4 the county. It does -- it does form a pretty good-sized 5 aquifer in other counties, but not this one. So, we mostly 6 have a sand-prone confined aquifer system. 7 Now, I said that that was a pretty tidy looking 8 cross-section or stratigraphic section. This is a 9 cross-section that runs from Llano to Bandera. You can see 10 it's not as tidy as the stratigraphic section you just looked 11 at. The main producing area, the main source of water we have 12 is that yellow blob up there called the Hensel. That yellow 13 blob furnishes most of our water in the confined units. All 14 of it is connected to that area down dip -- downgraded, except 15 for the Edwards. Then we have this confining unit again in 16 the Upper Glen Rose, with the Edwards on top of it in the 17 western and northwestern side of the counties. Kerr County is 18 also underlying in certain parts right here in this courthouse 19 by the Ellenburger Group, which is a dolomite in the 20 Palaeozoic era. That dolomite is the main producing interval 21 in Gillespie County, yet we haven't tried to work with that 22 unit here in this county. It's possible that we still have 23 some exploration to do within the -- within the Ellenburger 24 right here in the city and over on the eastern side of the 25 county, although we haven't tried it yet. 1-22-07 wk 18 1 Here's a detailed geologic map of the county. The 2 blue areas are the two Edwards -- really, formations in the 3 Edwards Group. The lower unit, the lighter blue, is where 4 most of the water comes out of the springs. The light green 5 is the Upper Glen Rose which underlies the Edwards. And 6 there's a dark green -- very small piece of dark green, which 7 is the Lower Glen Rose near Comfort. There is one major fault 8 in the county that I found; it's near Comfort. There's 9 another fault that David Jeffery told me about at Bandera 10 Pass, a large fault. Could be the same fault as the one I'm 11 describing. This is probably the most detailed geologic map 12 you've ever seen. There's even a little Middle Cretaceous out 13 to the west, which is the Buda and the Del Rio, some remnants 14 of that out there. Actually, if you look at the coal in some 15 of the -- in some of the Upper Glen Rose, and you run 16 something called vitrinite reflectance on it, you'll find that 17 there was over 5,000 feet of section on top of all what you 18 see now at six and a half million years. That's been eroded 19 off. 20 We have an interactive map, our GIS. We work with 21 GIS a lot. We have an interactive map, and you can click on 22 your well, and up comes all the information on your well. 23 We're expanding that. We're working on that constantly. We 24 have a full-time employee working on that, so that you'll be 25 able to come into our office, click on a well; you'll see all 1-22-07 wk 19 1 information on it, plus information we're adding to it. So, 2 that's a very handy -- handy item that we work with, and it's 3 a necessary item to use with a -- to the GAM model. Here are 4 the type of logs we have. There's two on the wall over here 5 like this. One's a lithologic log, one's a geophysical log. 6 We've run these on every deep well that we can find that the 7 landowner will let us, or we'll drill our own wells in many 8 cases, which is very -- a very handy thing to do. The 9 geophysical log is a -- is a log that's been used in the oil 10 business and in this country since about 1936. We're now 11 running these types of logs, and a lot of this comes out of 12 the oil industry. We now have logs that we can run that will 13 give us information that we could never get before; 14 geophysical logs, direct hydraulic conductivity logs, direct 15 porosity logs. They're expensive compared to the cost of a 16 well -- a water well. They're still expensive, but they give 17 you a great deal of information. 18 So, now we finally -- after we've gone through all 19 this, we get down to the GAM steps. First of all, we have to 20 have good surface and good subsurface -- we really have to 21 know the geometry, understand the movement of water. We're 22 building a model based upon three-dimensional cells. We're 23 utilizing data that reflects the movement of groundwater 24 within each individual cell. We're testing the model against 25 real water levels, real pump tests, et cetera. We're not at 1-22-07 wk 20 1 that point yet. We have -- I have actually created the model 2 to the point where I now have all the geometry in the model, 3 which is 12,000 cells -- approximately 12,000 cells. We'll be 4 able to predict the volability of various areas over the next 5 50 years by asking these what-if questions of the model -- 6 numerical model. And we can continue to refine that model 7 from this point forward. 8 How to use a GAM. These are the cells, the surface 9 cells, square mile basis in the county. This is actually a 10 screen shot from the model; covers 708,488 acres. It has 10 11 layers. Ten layers deep, and that approximates to about 12 12,000 cells. Data has to be placed within each -- each 13 individual cell on a three-dimensional basis. From that, you 14 can make contour maps of water levels, contour maps of all 15 kinds of information, all kinds of data, and other maps can 16 be -- can be constructed, which I've done. They present 17 various forms of data, such as hydraulic conductivity, which 18 is how fast the water is moving through the surface, 19 subsurface, or other hydrogeologic parameters. These are some 20 of the cells. This is one cell representing -- representing 21 several layers, different types of data you can put in each 22 individual cell, so you can see this becomes an extremely 23 complex numerical problem. 24 This is an actual screen shot of a cross-section 25 through a column through the county. You can see that I've 1-22-07 wk 21 1 labeled the Edwards, the Upper Glen Rose, the Lower Glen Rose, 2 the Hensel. The Hensel, by the way, changes in conductivity 3 across the county; it's not all the same. It's higher in some 4 areas, lower in others. That's true of the Hosston also, 5 although those are refinements that have come later. I've 6 actually finished putting in all the conductivity, storativity 7 or storage coefficient, which you probably don't know what 8 that means, but how much water is in storage for each 9 individual cell throughout the county, in one water level map. 10 I've done the Edwards; I'm now working on water levels in the 11 other aquifers for the ten layers that go into this -- into 12 this study. 13 If you look at the Texas Water Development Board 14 GAMs, they have two GAMs that cover this area, overlap each 15 other to some degree. One is the Edwards Trinity. The second 16 one is the Trinity Hill Country. Trinity Hill Country has 17 four layers. The Edwards Trinity has two layers. Correct me 18 if I'm wrong; I think that's correct. And my -- my GAM is 19 incorporating 10 layers, so those 10 layers make -- make the 20 whole problem much more complex. But in order to understand 21 the plumbing and really get down to the movement and make 22 50-year predictions, I felt it necessary to include all of the 23 units, all of the aquifers and all of the aquitars between the 24 aquifers in order to come to a better conclusion and make 25 better decisions and to make better predictions. So, I'm 1-22-07 wk 22 1 still working on refining the data that goes into each 2 individual cell. Even though I have kind of a cross-map for 3 each -- each individual aquifer and aquitar, I'm still working 4 on the refinements, especially some areas. 5 If you look over here to your -- to your right, 6 there's a map on the wall, hand-drawn. It shows some brown 7 spots, some brown areas. We think those areas are areas -- we 8 know those areas are where we have 300 feet of draw down, 9 300 feet of zone of capture. That's a serious problem. Aqua 10 Texas drilled two wells in one of those brown spots recently, 11 last year. Wells that we would normally expect to make 250 12 gallons a minute made 30 gallons a minute. And there's 13 another well north of Ingram, same thing. A well that should 14 have made 250 gallons a minute made 30 gallons a minute. This 15 is out of the Lower Trinity. That's a red flag, very definite 16 red flag, and so we do have areas that we suspect are 17 depleted. There are three areas. One area is out in 18 Kerrville South. The second area is between Center Point and 19 Comfort, and third area is the Upper Turtle Creek area, which 20 is reflected in that map and other maps we're making, too. 21 Now, if you consider those areas to be drawn down 22 300 feet regionally, and then you add that to the 28,000, 23 25,000-year water, that should definitely raise a red flag. 24 So, we have some very good areas, though. We have one area 25 north of town up in the Mountain Home area, the Goat Creek 1-22-07 wk 23 1 Road area north of the county and northwest, where we have 2 water that is wonderful, very plentiful. We have a huge 3 aquifer in that area. That water -- we're capable of making 4 1,000-gallon-a-minute wells with no draw down in some of those 5 areas. So, we do have some good news and we have some bad 6 news. We're also doing quite a large effort on isotope 7 dating, and our isotope dating is helping us decide how fast 8 the water is moving, where it's moving from and to. So, we 9 have discovered very strong areas. We have depleting aquifer 10 areas. We have severe draw down areas, which I've just 11 described, and we have a lot of new data from our pump tests 12 and from other wells that are being drilled. 13 We do -- we have a lot of cooperation going on with 14 surrounding districts. I speak to the surrounding district 15 managers constantly; once a week, probably, or more. We're 16 also communicating with the U.S.G.S. on our isotope work. 17 Part of the effort today is to communicate with the Texas 18 Water Development Board, County Commissioners, public 19 education, press, Region J, City of Kerrville. We try to 20 educate. We try to cooperate and offer our data and our 21 interpretation to all of these entities. We have a website 22 that's growing. A lot of the maps, interpretations, news, et 23 cetera, is on this website, and I suggest that you go to the 24 website, take a look at what we have on there and what we're 25 going to have in the future. And right now, I'd like to turn 1-22-07 wk 24 1 it over to the panel or the audience, I guess, and however you 2 want to handle this. Mary Ellen? 3 MS. SUMMERLIN: I want the panel to each respond, 4 one by one, anybody who wants to, to whatever extent they want 5 to. And -- and there are microphones on the desk, so just 6 sort of pass that around or come to the podium, either way. 7 Do you want to start, John? 8 MR. ASHWORTH: Okay. Thank you, Feather. That's 9 quite interesting. First of all, I'd like to say that the -- 10 from the regional water planning perspective, we really 11 appreciate the effort that the Headwaters district -- the work 12 that they did in participating with all the work that went 13 into the regional planning process. The district was 14 certainly a key partner in -- in that process. Also, I think 15 the district's doing a great job of the monitoring effort. 16 I'm aware of what a lot of the districts are doing in the 17 state, and I think that Headwaters is probably ahead of most 18 other districts in not only just going out and measuring water 19 levels, but making some sense of it and understanding why you 20 don't just take one measurement a year and feel that that 21 satisfies the need for -- for meeting a statutory requirement. 22 So, the district's certainly doing a very good job there. 23 I think, also, the amount of -- of technical work 24 that the district is doing through you, Feather, is very 25 commendable. That's certainly what is required before you can 1-22-07 wk 25 1 take that next step, is to understand that underground 2 plumbing, as you said. So, once again, I commend the district 3 for that. There's a lot of information that's being 4 collected, and I'm sort of curious to know how the district is 5 cooperating with the Water Development Board in terms of 6 getting that information back to the state, and what your 7 attitude is about that. Because a lot of other entities, such 8 as the regional water planning process, really use that Water 9 Development Board groundwater database for all the work that's 10 done, and a lot of other people rely on it. So, if you want 11 your information to have a lot of -- a lot of punch to it, 12 then I think it's real key that a strong coordination with the 13 Water Development Board be maintained. 14 Another aspect that, over the last two or three 15 years, I've been very interested in is this groundwater/ 16 surface water relationship. Through the regional water 17 planning -- Region J planning process, the planning group 18 members pretty much established a -- a definition of 19 groundwater availability in terms of how it relates to surface 20 water flows. In -- in terms of the groundwater being the 21 origin of the spring flow that flows into the streams, and 22 recognizing that the surface water is a key component to the 23 economic vitality of the area, and in order to maintain the 24 stream flows, you have to maintain the groundwater flow. So, 25 again, I -- I would think that that should be a key component 1-22-07 wk 26 1 in your overall aims of trying to understand the entire 2 hydrologic system. 3 In fact, in terms of the monitoring network, I think 4 it would be very interesting -- and maybe y'all are already 5 doing this, but to try and identify some key springs out there 6 and be able to maintain a weir on it such that you can note 7 what the continuous flow is, and then be able to coordinate 8 that directly back with groundwater rises and declines. And 9 then I think at that point in time, you start being able to 10 tell the story of, if our groundwater is depleted, here's 11 what's going to happen to our surface water. I'm not sure if 12 we're totally there yet, but -- 13 MR. WILSON: Well, we have been -- regulations 14 require that we offer no permits. No permitted wells will be 15 drilled in the Edwards aquifer. That's to preserve the spring 16 flow. We don't have a lot of pressure on our Edwards aquifer 17 right now. We are monitoring spring flow, and we do plan 18 to -- actually, in the model, I'm using spring flow and actual 19 flow rates, averages over many years, to back into the model. 20 And -- because, actually, the Edwards is one of the most 21 complex, most difficult aspects of modeling -- of the model, 22 because it's not -- it's a karsted system. That means it's a 23 cavernous system, and when you're trying to model a cavernous 24 system, you become -- you start -- you start estimating -- you 25 start using equations that were never meant to be used in a 1-22-07 wk 27 1 karsted system. So, you actually have to use empirical data. 2 If you don't have that empirical data, your model's not going 3 to work too well in the Edwards. 4 MR. ASHWORTH: In terms of the modeling aspect, 5 whether it's a GAM type model or if it's just strictly a water 6 budget, a simple time model, half of the -- of the question 7 that needs to be answered is, how much water is being pulled 8 out? And I'm kind of curious to know where the district is in 9 terms of trying to quantify pumping. 10 MR. WILSON: Well, I actually -- actually did that 11 yesterday, and in anticipation of this question. And if you 12 add up the wells and you add up the irrigation on our permits, 13 plus the exempt wells, we're actually producing 11,840 14 acre-feet per year right now. Now, that equates to 15 242 gallons per person in this county. That means we're using 16 more water in this county per person than some other counties, 17 although some counties are 250. But we're now at -- that 18 11,840 acre-feet is at -- is actually at what we projected for 19 the year 2050. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Feather, that is not accurate. 21 That includes -- including irrigation. 22 MR. WILSON: That's including everything. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But other counties that use, 24 like -- you know, grow any kind of produce, their per capita 25 is in the thousands, because -- 1-22-07 wk 28 1 MR. WILSON: Right. I think ours is. 2 MS. SUMMERLIN: No, but compared -- I think what he 3 was talking about is, compared to what the Region J projection 4 was for 2050. 5 MR. WILSON: In other words, we're close to the 6 projection that we projected 50 or 40 years hence. That is -- 7 I can -- I can make that estimate two ways. I can say we're 8 either between 8,000 and 11,000, but somewhere in there. 9 We're -- let's say 10,000. That's what we projected for this 10 county for 2040, 2060. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Irrigation? 12 MR. WILSON: No, not for irrigation. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But you're including irrigation. 14 MR. WILSON: Including everything, yeah. I think I 15 remember that. Which is -- kind of bothers me. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought we were higher than 17 that. You may be right. I don't think our -- our numbers -- 18 MR. WILSON: Again, that's again based upon the 19 drought of record. And -- but we're up -- we're up there. 20 Either way you look at it, we're way up there. We're 21 producing a lot of water, and let's say it's 10,000 acre-feet 22 a year. I could -- I could make a case for 8,000 or 11,000, 23 and that's a lot of water. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- 25 MS. SUMMERLIN: Were you going to go further, John, 1-22-07 wk 29 1 with other points? 2 MR. ASHWORTH: I had just one more. 3 MS. SUMMERLIN: Go ahead. 4 MR. ASHWORTH: It appears to me that the district 5 is -- is basically building this model as being their 6 management tool, which -- which that's good. My question is, 7 how does this model fit in with the other work that the other 8 districts in the hill country are doing in order to be able to 9 all work together to -- to create a future desired condition? 10 MS. SUMMERLIN: Exactly. Exactly. Maybe that'll 11 come up more when these guys speak. 12 MR. WILSON: Well, the other districts are also 13 creating local models. Gillespie County has created a model 14 in southeastern Gillespie County. David Jeffery with Bandera 15 is creating a model around the city of Bandera, right? Is 16 that correct? 17 MR. JEFFERY: I think it's going to be the whole 18 county. 19 MR. WILSON: Whole county for the Hosston? Or 20 everything? 21 MR. JEFFERY: For everything. 22 MR. WILSON: Everything. So, that's great. I'm 23 glad to hear it. We -- 24 MR. JEFFERY: Probably won't have 10 layers in it. 25 MR. WILSON: I -- he's got a simpler county than 1-22-07 wk 30 1 this one. 2 MS. SUMMERLIN: Let's let George have a turn. 3 MR. OZUNA: You've done an excellent job, and the 4 district should be commended in looking at what I call aquifer 5 architecture, 'cause this is what always seems to be missing, 6 is the understanding of the top, the bottom, the sides of an 7 aquifer system. It is very, very complicated. It's -- you've 8 got intertonguing formations, and that's why you've gone to a 9 very complicated 10-layer; you've done a lot of preliminary 10 hydrogeologic or geologic assessments in better understanding 11 aquifer architecture, and you're well on your way in trying to 12 understand that. Kind of following from John, I'm a little 13 concerned on the water budget. With 10 layers, you're going 14 to need a lot of information for each of those individual 15 layers for hydrologic conductivity. That probably shouldn't 16 be backed into, or storage coefficient, and where's that 17 information coming from? From the pump tests? 18 MR. WILSON: From the pump tests. 19 MR. OZUNA: Okay. 20 MR. WILSON: The only backing into empirical data is 21 from the flow rates in the river for the Edwards. That's the 22 most complex unit I'm dealing with. The other units are based 23 upon pump tests, and I know not just pump tests, but pump 24 tests is a big part of it. But another aspect of it is that I 25 have regional geologic maps where I show draw down areas. 1-22-07 wk 31 1 MR. OZUNA: Right. 2 MR. WILSON: I know the storage is not going to be 3 as high in those areas as in others, so I have to go back and 4 refine those individual cells within that -- within that 5 particular unit in order to come down, bring that storage 6 storativity down to lower levels, and it will be outside of 7 that area. Now, again, it's still -- it's still based upon 8 estimates. 9 MR. OZUNA: Right. 10 MR. WILSON: Because we still don't have vast 11 amounts of data that we need. 12 MR. OZUNA: Yeah. 13 MR. WILSON: But it's a dynamic model, and as time 14 goes on, we can continue to refine it. 15 MR. OZUNA: Recharge. Recharge to the Edwards is 16 being computed how? 17 MR. WILSON: Well, I'm going to -- my next big 18 isotope project is going to be based on the Edwards and where 19 it's coming from and how fast -- 20 MR. OZUNA: Not where it's coming from. How much? 21 Quantifying it. 22 MR. WILSON: Well, quantifying it, I have to 23 actually look at the spring flow and then come back from the 24 spring flow to the Edwards. 25 MR. OZUNA: Why not use -- 1-22-07 wk 32 1 MR. WILSON: I can use -- I have used -- 2 MR. OZUNA: -- rainfall data? 3 MR. WILSON: I have used -- 4 MR. OZUNA: And stream flow. 5 MR. WILSON: -- used stream flow as part of it. I'm 6 not -- I used stream flow and actually backed in with the 7 numbers. But I have not used stream flow -- it's not -- I'm 8 not applying it yet to my model. 9 MR. OZUNA: But you will -- 10 MR. WILSON: I will. 11 MR. OZUNA: -- look at it? 12 MR. WILSON: Yes. 13 MR. OZUNA: Okay. I think that's a big component 14 here that I see that's probably either missing, because I 15 think there's -- there's some big gaps in the stream flow 16 network for the Edwards. 17 MR. WILSON: Yes, there are. 18 MR. OZUNA: Through the county. 19 MR. WILSON: Well, we're also -- we're also 20 monitoring the spring flow as well as using USGS gauging. 21 MR. OZUNA: That's part of the picture, but I think 22 still there's pieces missing as far as the hydrologic budget. 23 MR. WILSON: Absolutely. And there's going to be 24 pieces missing far beyond my -- far beyond my tenure. We're 25 still going to have to add to this and refine it for many 1-22-07 wk 33 1 years. 2 MR. OZUNA: So, we're looking at a completely -- 3 first cut, here's where we are? Okay. 4 MR. WILSON: Absolutely. 5 MR. OZUNA: Okay. All right, that's all I have. 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: Thanks, George. Andy? 7 MR. DONNELLY: Well, I will follow up -- I agree 8 with what both George and John have said. I tend to get into 9 the -- the nitty-gritty a little more of the model. I'm 10 looking forward to actually seeing the model files in a 11 detailed report with a lot of the -- the data on it. And not 12 -- there's not a lot of the data that's been presented here. 13 And I will certainly have a whole lot more to add once we're 14 able to see the files. 15 MS. SUMMERLIN: Can I ask a question of you, Andy? 16 From Texas Water Development Board, is there -- is there any 17 problem with our submitting this data to you on a, you know, 18 piecemeal basis before we get it all done? 19 MR. DONNELLY: No, there's no problem. The more 20 data that we can get and the quicker that we can get it, the 21 better. 22 MS. SUMMERLIN: Good. So we don't have to wait 23 until this thing is, quote, done; that is, we've done all our 24 steps. 25 MR. WILSON: I need all the help I can get. 1-22-07 wk 34 1 MS. SUMMERLIN: Never exactly be done, but -- 2 MR. DONNELLY: No, I mean -- 3 MS. SUMMERLIN: That's good news. 4 MR. DONNELLY: I think we would like to see that. I 5 mean, we have the fourth layer of the model -- the hill 6 country model being added right now, and that would help that. 7 MS. SUMMERLIN: Sure. 8 MR. DONNELLY: I'm not sure if there's -- if our 9 modeler has actually gotten any of that. I don't know of any, 10 myself. 11 MR. WILSON: That was another question -- 12 MR. DONNELLY: We would like as much as we can get. 13 MS. SUMMERLIN: Right. 14 MR. WILSON: That was another question that was 15 answered -- asked by John Ashworth, is that how are we getting 16 this data to -- or information or interpretation to the Texas 17 Water Development Board? And that is a problem. That is not 18 only a problem here in Kerr County; it's a problem in all the 19 counties, in that, far as I know -- I do a lot of water 20 availability studies and pump tests in other counties on a 21 commercial basis or consulting basis. Some counties are 22 better at submitting that data to the Texas Water Development 23 Board than others, and far as I know, most of my studies in 24 Bandera and Gillespie County have been submitted to the Texas 25 Water Development Board. Is that correct? 1-22-07 wk 35 1 MR. TYBOR: We haven't yet. They're available, but 2 we haven't. 3 MR. WILSON: And there's a lot of data in this 4 information. I do a lot of -- a lot of water availability 5 studies, and, you know, I never know what happens to it. 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: But the -- but our GAM research, we 7 certainly do, and we can. 8 MR. WILSON: Yes, I'll be happy to share it with 9 you. 10 MS. SUMMERLIN: That's great. 11 MR. WILSON: And seek your help. And I've got -- in 12 20 minutes -- I mean, I could talk four hours about what's 13 going on, but it -- I can't do it in 20 minutes. 14 MR. DONNELLY: Typically, what we'll do with the 15 GAMs that we're having our contractors develop, and even our 16 internal GAMs, is that there will be a data evaluation 17 development and evaluation process, and then sort of midway 18 through the project, there will be a conceptual model report 19 that we stop and -- and we'll review the data. We'll review 20 the conceptual model, and it will actually be submitted at 21 this point, and then we will review it and give the okay to go 22 ahead and actually start the model. That's one of the ways 23 during the GAM process that -- 24 MS. SUMMERLIN: And could that -- and could that 25 process be available to somebody like Headwaters, that you 1-22-07 wk 36 1 didn't contract with in the first place? 2 MR. DONNELLY: I think that we would be amenable to 3 reviewing -- 4 MS. SUMMERLIN: 'Cause I think we'd love that. I -- 5 right, Feather? 6 MR. WILSON: Sure. Yeah. 7 MR. DONNELLY: I mean, I don't think that would be a 8 problem. 9 MS. SUMMERLIN: Cool. 10 MR. WILSON: Let me tell you about the software I'm 11 using -- use as a detail -- 12 MS. SUMMERLIN: Wait, you guys. Before you do that, 13 that gets kind of technical, and we have had people here for 14 an hour and we haven't taken any of their questions yet, so I 15 think I'll ask you to hold that. 16 MR. DONNELLY: I do have one technical question. 17 MS. SUMMERLIN: I want to hear from every member of 18 the panel. Maybe Feather -- we got a tape. Don't answer; 19 just let them ask. We'll come back. 20 MR. DONNELLY: Are the figures that you showed of 21 your model cells back here, are those the extent of your 22 active versus inactive cells? 23 MR. MORGAN: Yes, I have both active and inactive 24 cells on there. 25 MR. DONNELLY: 'Cause it looks like the active cells 1-22-07 wk 37 1 were drawn basically along the county boundary. 2 MR. WILSON: That's right. 3 MR. DONNELLY: Okay. That is not optimal. You'll 4 want to push that back, because as you noted earlier in your 5 report -- your presentation, groundwater flow does not stick 6 to groundwater. Typically, what you want to do is you'll want 7 to push the active portions of your model back so that you 8 eliminate boundary effects. 9 MS. SUMMERLIN: Right. 10 MR. DONNELLY: And for a county like this, you would 11 have -- have it squared off. So, that would be all that I can 12 really comment on technically, is that -- 13 MR. WILSON: Good suggestion. Yeah, it's -- it's a 14 good suggestion. Now, you talked about that, and talked about 15 it in terms of policy decision, that they're paying me to work 16 in Kerr County. 17 MS. SUMMERLIN: And that's where that comes from, of 18 course. You know, we're wanting to use this for -- 19 MR. WILSON: Push that envelope out beyond the 20 county. 21 MR. DONNELLY: But you will have -- you need to be 22 aware of that, because -- 23 MS. SUMMERLIN: Good. 24 MR. DONNELLY: -- when you're putting down a 25 boundary like that, you could impact calibrations and such in 1-22-07 wk 38 1 and close to those areas. And you don't have to necessarily 2 spend a lot of time or effort getting lots of data, but as 3 long as you have active cells outside of your Kerr County 4 area. 5 MS. SUMMERLIN: To make sure to check it. 6 MR. DONNELLY: To allow the model to -- 7 MS. SUMMERLIN: Yeah. 8 MR. WILSON: Good point. Thank you. 9 MS. SUMMERLIN: Ali? 10 MR. CHOWDHURY: For the -- the recharge, how are you 11 going to model the recharge? Following the same questions 12 that George and Andy had. 13 MR. WILSON: Two ways. 14 MR. CHOWDHURY: The water is very old, right? 15 MR. WILSON: Two ways to model it. One is that 16 isotope work, and the second one is the geometry or the 17 plumbing; that I understand if I don't understand the plumbing 18 and I don't understand how fast it's moving, I can't really do 19 a decent model, I don't think. 20 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 21 MS. SUMMERLIN: Any others? 22 MR. CHOWDHURY: It's going to be a complex model. 23 MR. WILSON: Yes. 24 MR. CHOWDHURY: That's -- because I'm involved in 25 the initial development of the Hill Country Trinity, and 1-22-07 wk 39 1 putting together a conceptual model, that's step one. And to 2 calibrate a model, that's another big step. 3 MR. WILSON: That's where the rubber meets the road, 4 is the calibration. 5 MS. SUMMERLIN: And we're two years into what we 6 think is a four-year project. Paul? 7 MR. TYBOR: Okay. First off, I think Headwaters is 8 certainly doing some really fine work in getting the technical 9 base up and running. 10 AUDIENCE: Could you speak into the mic? 11 MR. TYBOR: Headwaters is certainly -- is that on? 12 Yeah. All right, I'll hold it. Headwaters has certainly 13 gotten on board as far as getting their technical database up 14 and running, and you've got to have that to do that, which in 15 turn helps the board make decisions on their rules and their 16 management. The districts up here in the hill country, we are 17 certainly cooperating. The model that I've developed, I've 18 given to Ron. Water level data, all that's available. So, 19 there's a lot of cooperation amongst all the districts up 20 here. 21 MR. FIESELER: Okay, I'll expand on that a little 22 bit. I think all groundwater districts have similar problems 23 that y'all are dealing with here in the Kerr County area 24 regarding the aquifer research and -- and water availability, 25 such as that. Working together regionally to understand these 1-22-07 wk 40 1 overlapping aquifers, which Feather touched on briefly, I 2 think, is -- is really, really critical to the process. The 3 work that Headwaters is doing is going to be useful to perhaps 4 eight or ten groundwater districts within a very large 5 regional area; three, maybe four regional planning groups, one 6 to two groundwater management area groups that are working on 7 groundwater management processes. The regional cooperation is 8 the best thing we can do right now for our aquifers and our 9 aquifer users. Just to put a thought in your head, a lot of 10 people worry about what their next door neighbor's doing as to 11 how it's going to affect their well. You may be better off 12 worrying about what's happening one or two or three counties 13 away. 14 MR. JEFFERY: Do I have it? Okay. I'll get closer 15 to it, okay. Yeah, I think the work that's being done here is 16 good, and hope to be able to extend it on down into Bandera 17 County. Only thing to say is, be conservative on the Lower 18 Trinity up here, where it ends up. (Laughter.) 19 MR. FIESELER: That's what I said. 20 MR. JEFFERY: One other thing. Clarify the Edwards 21 aquifer, the difference between the Edwards Plateau and the 22 Edwards Aquifer at San Antone. 23 MR. WILSON: The Edwards in San Antonio is known as 24 the BFZ, or the Balcones Fault Zone. The Edwards out here on 25 the hills is a whole different situation. The BF -- actually, 1-22-07 wk 41 1 the San Antonio area, which the U.S.G.S. has done a wonderful 2 job on, those wells are making 5,000 gallons a minute, some of 3 them without any draw down. A tremendous, tremendous aquifer. 4 We -- that's not our Edwards aquifer. Our Edwards aquifer 5 might make 2 gallons a minute or 5 gallons a minute if you're 6 lucky. So, we don't have the advantage of all that faulting 7 that they have in San Antonio, and opening up these huge 8 cavernous flow regimes. We don't have that in the hill 9 country. And there's a big difference between what you see on 10 television and what you read in the San Antonio Express about 11 the Edwards aquifer. That's not our Edwards aquifer. Our 12 Edwards aquifer is -- is much more limited than that. 13 MS. SUMMERLIN: Thank you. I'm aware of a bad 14 mistake we made, which was not giving paper and pencil to our 15 Commissioners, and I'm sorry, 'cause I'll take your questions 16 first if I can. Are they written, Bill? You said you had 17 some. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let Jon start. We all have 19 some. 20 MS. SUMMERLIN: Okay. Could you write them? Are 21 they too long to write? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't -- I mean, I can speak 23 loud. I think we all speak pretty loud, anyway. Question. 24 Something that I'd appreciate if Feather could expound on a 25 little bit is explaining layers. 1-22-07 wk 42 1 AUDIENCE: Can't hear. 2 MS. SUMMERLIN: What's in a layer? What does a 3 "layer" mean? And, of course, the -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well -- 5 MS. SUMMERLIN: -- the layers of geology are the -- 6 you know, the stratigraphy, those pieces you go down through. 7 The layers of the GAM model are artificial. They're -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wait. What is -- okay. The 9 question is if Feather could explain the layers as they apply 10 to his model. 11 MS. SUMMERLIN: Right. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And how much of the actual -- 13 the 12,000 cells, how many of those cells are filled with 14 actual well data, as opposed to interpretations or whatever, 15 if you have a well here, of actual information from those 16 cells. 17 MR. WILSON: Very few of those cells are filled with 18 well data. A lot of it's interpolation from wells that are 19 widely scattered, and information that's widely scattered. 20 And a "layer" is a term that is used in the model, but we 21 don't use that in geologic terms. We use -- that's a 22 modeler's term. We use lithologic units or aquifers or 23 formations or groups. I didn't use that type of nomenclature 24 today, because I think people understand layers, like layers 25 of paper or layers of blankets, and it's easier for them to 1-22-07 wk 43 1 understand that nomenclature, I thought. 2 MS. SUMMERLIN: So, the layers in the model, 3 Feather, are they a uniform depth? They're of uniform area. 4 MR. WILSON: They're not uniform thickness, and they 5 do pinch out and change from, say, limestone to sand. In a 6 model, though, I carry these -- all these layers throughout 7 the entire model, and then I -- the ones that have changed, 8 what's called facies are changed from -- from a limestone to a 9 sand, that particular layer where the sand is is transparent 10 with the sand above it and the sand below it. When it comes 11 back to where it's in limestone, I have a different set of 12 parameters -- hydrogeologic parameters that go into that -- 13 into that particular layer. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Wilson, I'm not a 15 geologist and I don't profess to be, and so I'm here to learn 16 like everybody else is today. But I want to get back to the 17 basics in terms of where this information comes from. Kerr 18 County is 1,100 square miles, and you're talking about 22 19 monitoring wells, which by my math, equates to about one 20 monitoring well for every 50 square acres -- square miles. My 21 question, then, is do you believe that this information that 22 you're gleaning from these monitor wells, wherever they need 23 to be, and we'd like to know where they are, does that 24 constitute a sufficient amount of -- of data to accurately 25 reflect some of your conclusions? 1-22-07 wk 44 1 MR. WILSON: No, there's not enough wells. We don't 2 have enough monitoring wells, and will never have enough 3 monitoring wells. We need more, and we're drilling more. But 4 you use the data that you have, and that's all you can do. 5 Let me say something about the data, the wells, the well data. 6 There are three well databases that the state has, one of 7 which is the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation. 8 One comes from the Texas Water Development Board. A third one 9 comes from the Texas Commission for Environmental Quality. 10 All of those databases have not been blended together. Those 11 databases are all out there in separate files. The map you 12 see on the wall over here incorporates two of those databases, 13 which are GIS or digital databases, but two-thirds of the 14 wells in Texas are not digitized. Two-thirds of the wells in 15 Texas are in a drawer at the Texas Commission for 16 Environmental Quality, and nothing's being done with those 17 wells. So, there's a huge amount of data out there that 18 we're -- actually, in this legislative session, there's been 19 some suggestions that we actually provide some money -- or the 20 State Legislature provide some money so that we can get all of 21 that integrated into one database. Perhaps you might want to 22 make a remark about that. 23 MR. DONNELLY: I'd heard that. I wasn't sure if it 24 was something that was talked about being funded, or was 25 actually started. I had understood that they were doing a 1-22-07 wk 45 1 pilot project to start to digitize all of the well records 2 there at T.C.E.Q. I wasn't -- I'm not exactly sure what the 3 status of that is. 4 MR. WILSON: Well records are essentially a 5 nightmare for a modeler. 6 MR. FIESELER: I was going to -- 7 MS. SUMMERLIN: Go ahead. 8 MR. FIESELER: Let me jump in here and point out, 9 too, that modeling and databases are -- we would never 10 consider them complete or perfect. They're not -- they're not 11 absolute ways to do absolute predictive efforts. They're a 12 way to get general trends and look at things on a regional 13 basis, and you can sometimes spot areas where you need more 14 research. There may be areas of the county where you only 15 need one well for every 50 acres or something like that -- or 16 50 square miles, and there may be others where you need one 17 for every 2 or 3 square miles. So, you look for things like 18 that in these models. And it's a -- it's a useful tool. It's 19 just not a -- it's not a hard and fast, deadly accurate one, 20 so everybody needs to keep that in mind. It's just a -- it's 21 a tool that we can use to look at trends and processes and 22 that sort of thing. 23 MS. SUMMERLIN: Bruce, did you want to go next? Or 24 did you -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll just wait. Why don't 1-22-07 wk 46 1 you -- Buster, do you have something? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I don't have a specific 3 question, but I just wanted to remind you that our court has a 4 court reporter here, and she only has the ability to take down 5 one voice at a time, so be gentle with that. 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: I've got some from the audience now. 7 Let's start with the easiest one. Somebody wants to know, 8 "What is this other fluid that was on that slide?" I'm sure 9 it's oil. "Is there any way to determine if recharge is 10 keeping up with withdrawal, and if so, what's the answer?" 11 MR. WILSON: Well, we're just beginning to ask that 12 question and answer it. One of the questions is, how old is 13 the water? And we've had -- let me show you something, if I 14 can go back to this slide, get it back here. Okay. Here's a 15 spreadsheet. This is a spreadsheet of the isotopic -- or 16 isotopic ages that we've determined from various counties 17 recently, the radiocarbon dating and also tritium dating. 18 You'll notice that in the -- in Kerr County, we've done four 19 wells. One of them I won't have until the 2nd of February. 20 We have 25,880 years old; that's the Hensel sand. We have 21 28,000 years old, and that's an Alpine Drive well here in the 22 city. And we have a second opinion on one of the duplicates, 23 on one of the wells at the Johnson R.V. Park. That's a little 24 older than it was back in June. That doesn't mean it got 25 older from June to December, but it means we were producing 1-22-07 wk 47 1 from a different zone. In Kendall County, we have 2 17,000-year-old water. Bandera city well's 25,000 years old. 3 And Vineyard to Fredericksburg, which is just near the city of 4 Fredericksburg, right at it, it's 101 years old. This is out 5 of the same unit, this Hensel unit. And Blanco County, we had 6 4,800-year-old water. So, we're all -- in these counties, by 7 cooperating -- there's about five or six counties involved. 8 We're all taking water samples, submitting these samples for 9 various types of isotope studies. So, in order to understand 10 the recharge, we're trying to understand how fast the water's 11 coming into these areas, plus we're using a water budget to 12 see how fast it's coming out. Well, you know, if it's 13 thousands of years old and it's all in these counties -- every 14 county we've looked at is thousands of years, except the 15 outcrop -- we don't have much of a chance of recharging some 16 of the these lower units. In the history of mankind -- or, 17 you know, if we last another 28,000 years, maybe we will have. 18 But in the Edwards, that's a whole different situation. 19 Edwards is not that old. But we do it with isotope -- isotope 20 studies. 21 MS. SUMMERLIN: I have -- in another presentation, 22 I've heard George talk about those age-dating studies a little 23 bit. Do you want to say some more? 24 MR. OZUNA: Well, they just -- they need to be 25 filtered. 1-22-07 wk 48 1 MS. SUMMERLIN: Exactly. 2 MR. OZUNA: They don't -- 3 MS. SUMMERLIN: I wanted to hear somebody say that. 4 MR. OZUNA: They're not stand-alone numbers, and 5 they need -- 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: And, for example, what might make 7 some of this water look older than it is on a regular -- 8 MR. OZUNA: Well, if it's moving through other 9 carbonate rocks, if it's moved through that limestone and 10 everything else. 11 MS. SUMMERLIN: As it moves through older rocks, it 12 may pick up some -- 13 MR. OZUNA: I think it does give us a good handle on 14 flow paths within the formation. But the question was asked, 15 what is the budget? And I'm -- I still have to go back; we 16 need to get a handle on rainfall. We need to get a handle on 17 stream flow losses between -- along the Guadalupe. Those 18 stream flow losses will start to get you packages of spring 19 flow, because there are areas probably along the reaches of 20 the Guadalupe where more springs are moving out, and you can 21 see that as a combined unit, as opposed to just looking at one 22 spring as a trigger. So, there's all of that component of 23 recharge, which I don't -- I'm seeing missing in our overall 24 hydrologic budget year. That's my point. 25 MS. SUMMERLIN: We have a new plan underway -- is it 1-22-07 wk 49 1 okay to say, Ray? -- that we are working with U.G.R.A. to get 2 a whole lot more stream monitoring going. And you guys know 3 the U.S.G.S. has automated gauges up and down the river, but 4 we need more. We need more measurements and more often, and 5 in combination with U.G.R.A., we're going to get those. 6 The next question, "Is groundwater working with the 7 City to extend city water, river surface connections to 8 outlying areas, subdivisions, old and new, to prevent the 9 drilling of new wells and to relieve aquifers?" The 10 groundwater conservation district can conserve water two ways; 11 it can set pumping limits, and it can set the spacing numbers 12 from the property line to the well. So, those are the two 13 ways we can operate to conserve water. We are in consultation 14 with all the others all the time, and hoping, with your help 15 as opinion-makers in the city of Kerrville and the whole 16 county, to help a consensus emerge among the citizens about 17 how we should handle all our groundwater resources. Another 18 great thing that has happened lately is a conversation between 19 some independent water providers and the U.G.R.A., and maybe 20 there's some future with the river rights they've got for some 21 of these outlying areas. But for right now, we can't -- we 22 can't tell anybody they can't drill a well. We can tell them 23 how much they can take and how far it has to be from their -- 24 from their property line. That's the only way we can do that. 25 And the second question is, "What does 2008 look 1-22-07 wk 50 1 like, and what will it take to change pumping limits for 2 2008?" And, remember, pumping limits only apply to the big 3 wells, usually the big, deep wells that pump a lot more than a 4 household well. If you're a household, well, you're exempt 5 from regulation no matter what aquifer you're in. We have had 6 12 permitted wells drilled last year. It's not a huge number 7 we're talking about. But those pumping limits were changed 8 last January. The rules of the Headwaters Groundwater 9 Conservation District say that every January, we examine the 10 pumping limits and change them as appropriate. In January, we 11 put the limit for the Hensel north up to 115,000 gallons per 12 acre per year, and we moved the -- in the other parts of the 13 county, the Hensel and the rest of the Middle Trinity to 14 40,000 gallons per acre per year, and the Hosston to 15 40,000 gallons per acre per year. 16 AUDIENCE: Is it -- 115,000 per what? 17 MS. SUMMERLIN: Per acre, per year, is the way 18 they're expressed in our county, pumping limits. And if we 19 multiply your acres times that pumping limits -- that gallons, 20 and you can show us that for five or six years, you've used a 21 lot more water than that and you know it, you've metered it, 22 then we can grant you an exception. And our -- our rationale 23 -- our rationale behind that would be, you know, your pump is 24 still providing water. It's been providing water at that 25 limit, so it probably can for another five years. Permits 1-22-07 wk 51 1 last five years. 2 AUDIENCE: To follow up real quick, what's a permit 3 cost? 4 MS. SUMMERLIN: Gene? What does a permit cost? 5 Permit application. 6 MR. WILLIAMS: 1,500. 7 MS. SUMMERLIN: $1,500. Now, a domestic well is 8 much less, $300. For domestic wells, you're required to make 9 application, but it's so we have a record. There's no limit. 10 We don't require you to put a meter on it. Permitted wells 11 have to have meters on them, and you have to send us the meter 12 reading once a year. 13 Next question, "Is it possible to have sustainable 14 groundwater in the future? Would it change the right of 15 capture rule?" Whoa, that's a complicated question. I don't 16 know. I don't know. The state -- the state of Texas is in an 17 experimental mode. I think you should know that, and I think 18 as Texans, you -- you'll appreciate the fact that they're 19 relying on the local subdivisions to do a lot of the 20 experimentation. We'll just have to see. The right of 21 capture basically says that you can take as much water as you 22 want to out from under your property, and that's still the 23 rule in Texas where there is no groundwater conservation 24 district. If there's a groundwater conservation district, 25 then they can put some limits on how much you pump. 1-22-07 wk 52 1 This question says, "I'd like to hear from any of 2 the County Commissioners on what they see as their role in 3 conserving the water resources of Kerr County; for example, on 4 lot sizes." 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did you write that question? 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: Yes, that sounds like a setup. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the role of the County 8 is that the -- the Legislature gave counties authority through 9 water availability, and through water availability, you can 10 regulate lot sizes. So, I think that the -- I mean, the role 11 is -- is pretty big. And that's one of the reasons we're 12 participating in this meeting, is that we rely on the 13 technical expertise of Headwaters to give us information, and 14 so I think that our role is -- is critical. We do subdivision 15 rules and regulations and we set lot sizes. Headwaters has no 16 ability to set a lot size. They do pumping limits and they do 17 spacing. So, they're totally different creatures, though they 18 are related, and sometimes we have to sit down and discuss how 19 they work, because you can have different -- you can -- I 20 mean, unfortunately, lot sizes are almost never uniform 21 shapes, such as round or square or something like that. 22 They're usually long, skinny, odd shapes. And if you start 23 putting -- you can get yourself in a situation that we're 24 approving lot sizes, and if they're not consistent with the 25 spacing requirements that Headwaters puts in there, basically 1-22-07 wk 53 1 we're creating lots that you can't drill wells on. So, I 2 think we have to work together. 3 But, you know, I guess that's, in a nutshell, what 4 the role is. And I think the -- you know, the 5 Commissioners -- reason we're here is we're anxious to look at 6 the model, see what Feather Wilson is doing. But we're 7 probably -- what I've heard is that we need -- the model has 8 to be further along before we can start doing any kind of 9 decisions based on the model, because it's at the preliminary 10 stages right now. And I think that's what I'm hearing, 11 anyway. 12 MS. SUMMERLIN: Headwaters went through a many-month 13 process last year of revising its rules, and I want to thank 14 the Commissioners for all their input into that, because we 15 had long workshops on how we were going to reconcile lot size 16 with spacing limits. And, you know, we -- people have 17 different opinions about how it should be, so we just discuss 18 and discuss. "What interpolation methods are being used for 19 your well data?" 20 MR. WILSON: Well -- 21 MS. SUMMERLIN: Don't get too complicated. 22 MR. WILSON: Interpolations are part of the program 23 itself that I'm running, but I don't rely on just the program. 24 I don't think the computer can think like a human. Doesn't 25 have the experience that a human has, especially an 1-22-07 wk 54 1 experienced geologist. So, everything I do to interpolate, I 2 do by hand first. I actually use the well data, but I 3 actually contour the maps by hand, then put that 4 hand-contoured interpretation into the model. Now, the 5 computer still does some interpolation, but I've done the bulk 6 of it myself. 7 MS. SUMMERLIN: "How can policy make -- policy 8 makers effectively make decisions when the model is halfway 9 concluded? Shouldn't we wait until we get the science 10 completed?" I welcome that question, because I'd like for you 11 to consider the pumping limits that Headwaters has been 12 enforcing for the last 10 years that were strictly political 13 numbers. And I've heard this story from a variety of sources. 14 When those numbers were picked back in the early 90's, it was 15 strictly based on what the leaders at that time thought the 16 citizens would accept. Those numbers -- we've never had 17 enough science to base our regulations on. We -- I suppose 18 there's a -- there will be some people who will never have 19 enough science to make a decision they can feel completely 20 happy with. For myself, as a policy maker, my -- my standard 21 is common sense. I think of myself as representing all of 22 you. I'd like to think that if you studied all the stuff the 23 way I do and listened to as many people as I do, you'd come to 24 pretty much the same conclusion I come to. But, of course, 25 that's what we have elections for. You watch the way I vote, 1-22-07 wk 55 1 and if it doesn't match up with the way that you think and 2 evaluate the data, then you need to get somebody else. 3 MR. FIESELER: Mary? 4 MS. SUMMERLIN: Yeah? 5 MR. FIESELER: I'd like to also add, it's important 6 to realize that groundwater management, groundwater 7 planning -- for that matter, surface water, all water 8 management planning is a dynamic process. It's ongoing. In 9 the regional water planning groups, they're on a five-year 10 cycle. We have groundwater management areas that they're also 11 on a planning cycle. Groundwater districts are continually 12 getting new data, improving data, filling in gaps and holes, 13 and that will affect how things are managed and policies that 14 are dealt with in the future. So, if something's this way 15 today, it may change next year. And -- 16 MS. SUMMERLIN: Absolutely. 17 MR. FIESELER: -- it's a dynamic process. That's 18 all we can do with the data that we've got now. 19 MS. SUMMERLIN: And that's why the rules say pumping 20 limits are set every January, because things are going to 21 change if we're doing our job, if we're gathering more data 22 and constantly improving our understanding and our scientific 23 basis. 24 "Kerr County, with the hill country, has a climbing 25 floodplain. Since we have so many dry creek valleys, can we 1-22-07 wk 56 1 create detention/retention ponds to work with the..." Anyway, 2 the idea is, retention ponds in some of these dry creek 3 valleys to hold the water and let more of it sink into the 4 ground. And this is -- this is an idea you hear a lot. 5 Feather, do you want to talk to it? 6 MR. WILSON: I think George might address this 7 better than me, but, you know, I'm in favor of that. They are 8 doing that and planning on it with the Edwards Aquifer 9 Authority down in the San Antonio BFZ zone. We have it -- we 10 actually -- I don't know; did we plan on that in Region J? I 11 can't remember. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The first plan. 13 MR. WILSON: We did? So, yes, we've -- that's one 14 of our recommendations in Region J, to put in retention 15 ponds -- or not ponds, but actually -- actually recharge dams 16 for the Edwards, particularly. 17 MS. SUMMERLIN: And, of course, another one is -- is 18 brush management, is cedar removal. We think that would slow 19 down -- that would let more water that falls from the sky 20 percolate into at least the Edwards aquifer. "Does or will 21 this model account or consider man-made surface water inputs 22 to the aquifer, such as aquifer storage and recovery 23 projects?" Everybody know what ASR wells are? The city has a 24 permit to take more water out of the river than it really uses 25 in the winter, so it goes ahead and takes it all out, treats 1-22-07 wk 57 1 it, and stores it in wells, actually injects it in wells. So 2 that then in the summertime, when the demand is higher, they 3 can use, you know, their total permitted amount every year. 4 My assumption is that the water they put in is the water they 5 take out, and it doesn't affect the aquifer much. But this is 6 not absolutely cut-and-dried. Feather? 7 MR. WILSON: Well, I think that I've often said that 8 I think it would take a subordinate or much closer spaced 9 model within the city area to actually model the ASR 10 situation. And we're also talking about the City is drilling 11 another ASR well soon, so we'll have three wells. I'm very 12 much in favor of that. And when I first started this project, 13 I realized that that would have to be a subordinate model. 14 And there is a model being worked on now by a consulting firm 15 out of Austin for the city, which I've been editing and 16 helping with, and especially with data. And that model is -- 17 is reaching fruition right now. In fact, I think the modeler 18 is here? No? Is the modeler here today? Yes. Yes. Do you 19 want to make a comment on that? 20 AUDIENCE: Sure. Yeah. It's -- the model that we 21 created does have -- doesn't cover nearly the same amount of 22 area, but it's a more refined grid, smaller grid spacing, so 23 you can get a little more detail, see what happens on the 24 seasonal operation of ASR. But it's a much smaller scale 25 model, much simpler model right now. 1-22-07 wk 58 1 MR. WILSON: It is -- what I'm seeing, it's showing 2 pretty much the same thing I have on my maps, too. And 3 they're modeling the Hosston only, as I understand it; is that 4 correct? 5 AUDIENCE: Yes. 6 MR. DONNELLY: Are you incorporating any at all -- 7 not necessarily modeling, but is the pumpage stress where 8 you're injecting rather than withdrawing being incorporated 9 into modeling at all? 10 MR. WILSON: Yes, it is, especially the stress. 11 MS. SUMMERLIN: "You indicated that there is perhaps 12 300 feet of draw down in the brown areas on your GAM map over 13 there on the wall. Who is responsible for the water 14 production in these areas? What steps can be made to limit 15 production in these areas?" We can limit production by 16 pumping limits and spacing rules. There are many wells. 17 We're not satisfied completely in our own minds whether it's 18 the concentration of domestic exempt wells that seems to be 19 putting too much pressure on the area, or whether it's a few 20 very big wells that pump all the time that are putting the 21 pressure on. We need more information about what's caused 22 those brown areas. But what they mean is that you -- you 23 expect the water underground to flow naturally toward the Gulf 24 of Mexico, just like the water on the surface does, and what 25 we're seeing is some places where it drops off way too 1-22-07 wk 59 1 suddenly. It's not normal. Something abnormal is going on. 2 We don't know just exactly what it is yet. 3 The reason we drilled our newest model where we did 4 is to get more information, and sure enough, we found out that 5 the layer -- the stratigraphy there is very tight. Water 6 doesn't flow through it as easily as in some other parts, and 7 maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe it's not all to do 8 with not enough water, but just how slowly the water moves 9 through those geologic units. Feather, do you want to add to 10 that? 11 MR. WILSON: That's absolutely correct. We are 12 discovering, though, additional wells in the area that are not 13 permitted. And nonpermitted wells is something we're working 14 on right now. Surprisingly, there's quite a few wells that we 15 -- we didn't know about that are big wells that should be 16 permitted. That, combined with the geology or the hydraulic 17 conductivity or the lack of it in those areas, is creating 18 probably a bigger zone of capture than would normally be seen. 19 And then -- then the red flag -- the two red flag wells that 20 were drilled by Aqua Texas showing we have 200 feet of sand 21 and gravel, and hardly any production, is definitely a red 22 flag problem that we just discovered last year. 23 MS. SUMMERLIN: "How much generally does it cost to 24 drill in northwest Kerr County a well to the base of the Lower 25 Trinity?" Who could estimate that? 1-22-07 wk 60 1 MR. WILSON: Well, that depends on whether or not 2 you want to complete it as a permitted well, a public water 3 well, or just an ordinary well in the northwest side of the 4 county. If you want to -- if you want to complete it with PVC 5 casing, which you can do in that part of the county, probably 6 about $20,000, $25,000. 7 MS. SUMMERLIN: "How much does it cost to 8 lithographically log the well and evaluate it?" 9 MR. WILSON: Nothing. We'll do it -- we'll do it 10 for nothing. We'll actually do it ourselves and furnish you 11 logs. If you want to drill a well in the northwest side of 12 the county, you want to drill it deep, all the way to the 13 Palaeozoic surface, we'll log it for you. 14 MS. SUMMERLIN: I'd just like to say, I think that's 15 a real good use of your tax money, because it's finding 16 information for you without your having to bear the $25,000 17 cost of drilling a well. 18 MR. WILSON: You still got to drill a well. 19 MS. SUMMERLIN: I mean as taxpayers. The individual 20 is drilling the well, and we're doing the lithologic log. So, 21 we're getting a lithologic log without having to drill at 22 taxpayer expense. 23 MR. WILSON: And if you want to, we'll also do a 24 pump test on the well with our equipment, so that's -- that 25 saves you about another $10,000. 1-22-07 wk 61 1 MS. SUMMERLIN: Right. You got your two pockets, 2 you know, your own pocket and then your taxpayer pocket. "How 3 do you regulate the abuse of water resources?" We have pretty 4 strict rules about what you -- you know, how you have to cut 5 back in times of a drought. If you're a regulated, permitted 6 well, we have -- there is a state -- in the state law, there's 7 a definition of waste. Nobody's allowed to waste water, as -- 8 as an individual. Let me say that I think there are loopholes 9 that need to be tightened up on the state level. I think 10 Headwaters is -- is being about as conscientious as it can be 11 with its powers. One problem is enforcement. We have a staff 12 of four people. We have a guy that is out on the road a lot 13 measuring the monitoring wells and so on, but we don't have 14 near the manpower to even know if abuses are happening, and 15 then follow up on them, and that -- that could be a problem. 16 What I would like to dream is that we, as a community, become 17 educated enough to realize that it's in all of our best 18 interests for all of us to conserve water as much as we can, 19 and not rely on the stick, but the carrot of having lots of 20 water for lots of people. 21 "Is water to go the way of oil? Become a commodity 22 owned by a fortunate few, as with oil?" Well, that's pretty 23 much what Texas law is if you don't have a groundwater 24 conservation district, so that wouldn't be any change. 25 "How do we regulate people, counties, and/or large 1-22-07 wk 62 1 cities upstream or downstream that affect our aquifer system?" 2 That's another problem. And the Legislature, realizing that 3 the aquifers don't know where the geopolitical boundaries are, 4 has in the last session required -- required us -- not just 5 encouraged us as before, but required us to coordinate with 6 neighboring groundwater conservation districts and come up 7 with this desired future condition that we want to see our 8 aquifers in in the future, and then make sure all of our rules 9 and regulations are consistent with getting to that desired 10 future condition. 11 MR. FIESELER: Let me say one thing. 12 MS. SUMMERLIN: Sure. 13 MR. FIESELER: I always like to point out to people 14 that groundwater conservation districts are sometimes thought 15 of as -- as people who are out there telling you, "You can't 16 drill a well, you can't do this, you can't do that," it's 17 taking away your private property rights, when, in effect, 18 just the opposite is true. The groundwater conservation 19 districts are your only mechanism of insuring that your 20 ability to produce water from beneath your own ground is there 21 for your use. So, groundwater districts help protect private 22 property rights. 23 MS. SUMMERLIN: Thanks. Are there any other 24 questions we missed? Oh, sure. Dr. Quintanilla? 25 DR. QUINTANILLA: Thank you. We've been talking at 1-22-07 wk 63 1 considerable length about use. Before we are obligated to go 2 to San Antonio to take a shower, can we talk about water 3 harvesting? You know, this is a very simple -- 4 MS. SUMMERLIN: We love -- 5 DR. QUINTANILLA: -- system. 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: -- water harvesting, naturally. The 7 collection of rainwater has a million good reasons to do it. 8 A million good reasons to do it. It can be expensive to 9 retrofit, but it can also be quite affordable. At this 10 moment, you can't make the economic case that it'll pay for 11 itself in any foreseeable future. The time when it's 12 economically feasible is when you're starting from a plain lot 13 and you're comparing the cost of a rainwater system to the 14 cost of a well. Then it could be economically feasible. We 15 have toyed around, as recently as our January meeting on the 16 board of Headwaters, with the idea of a tax break for people 17 who do rainwater harvesting. Our tax rate and our tax 18 collection from even the most extensive properties in Kerr 19 County is so small that we're afraid people would laugh if we 20 gave them a tax break, but we might just do it as a -- you 21 know, as an example. As a way to call attention to the 22 benefits of the -- 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mary Ellen, we already have 24 that in Kerr County. We adopted that as a policy about four 25 years ago. If you prove out your rainwater collection 1-22-07 wk 64 1 system, -- 2 MS. SUMMERLIN: Absolutely. And they charge enough 3 money, your discount would matter. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- you get a rebate on your 5 taxes. 6 MS. SUMMERLIN: Nothing else? Sandy? 7 MS. PENA: The last time I checked -- and I'm glad 8 Bill mentioned that, 'cause I was about to get up and do so. 9 That tax incentive program was being administered by 10 groundwater -- by G.C. -- it used to be -- I'm sorry, by 11 Headwaters. It used to be U.G.R.A. But the -- and I wanted 12 to know if Gene had gotten anybody calling in to say, you 13 know, "Is this still a viable program? Are we eligible for a 14 tax incentive?" Bill, do you -- 15 MS. SUMMERLIN: I must confess, then, I am ignorant 16 about that process. Bill, do you know? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, do you have a 18 question? 19 MS. SUMMERLIN: Sandy said you used to get your -- I 20 guess your certification or something from U.G.R.A.? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. All we require on the 22 county level for a tax adjustment on the ensuing year is 23 proving out your investment. The tax credit can go up to 24 $1,000 based on your investment. So, if you're going to 25 install a rainwater collection system, prove it out to us, and 1-22-07 wk 65 1 the credit will go against your ensuing year. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think it's -- do you know 3 who they work with? They don't work with us directly. I 4 think -- does Headwaters or U.G.R.A.? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, we -- yes, we 6 stated they could prove it out to U.G.R.A., and they, in turn, 7 would tell us. 8 MS. SUMMERLIN: And, Ray, are you still -- and so, 9 Gene, have we had anybody else ask? Well, we may need to do a 10 little press release on that and let people know where they're 11 supposed to bring their receipts. That would be the deal, 12 right? You bring your receipts in? 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think either water agency 14 could accept the data, prove it out, and be -- and be 15 satisfied that it's accurate and it reflects the investment, 16 which would make them eligible, and we would accept that. 17 MS. SUMMERLIN: Cool. We'll get to work on it. 18 Jim? 19 MR. HAYES: Mary Ellen, it would be very helpful, I 20 think, if someone would explain -- and Ron may be the one -- 21 desired future conditions and what -- what are required by the 22 State and when. 23 MS. SUMMERLIN: Do you want to do it? 24 MR. FIESELER: Sure, I'll give it a shot. 25 AUDIENCE: What's the question? 1-22-07 wk 66 1 MR. FIESELER: Okay. In the last legislative 2 session -- 3 MS. SUMMERLIN: Maybe I should repeat the question. 4 What is the desired future conditions that we -- that the 5 State's requiring us to identify? 6 MR. FIESELER: In the last legislative session, they 7 passed a bill that required groundwater districts to work 8 cooperatively in 16 different groundwater management areas. 9 This county and several around it happen to be in what's known 10 as Groundwater Management Area Number 9. Oh, there we go, 11 good. 12 MS. SUMMERLIN: Oh, look, see what it is. 13 MR. FIESELER: That consists of eight groundwater 14 conservation districts, and we've been meeting on a regular 15 basis for the last year and a half or so, trying to get 16 started on this. What we're tasked to do by the Legislature 17 is to work cooperatively and come up with the desired future 18 conditions of the aquifers within our groundwater management 19 area. Now, these can be divided stratigraphically or 20 geographically, any way that we see fit that we can -- can 21 make a rational argument for as to setting the desired future 22 conditions. Now, once this is accomplished, they'll have to 23 be approved by the Groundwater Management Group and then the 24 individual board of directors of the groundwater conservation 25 districts. Then this desired future condition document will 1-22-07 wk 67 1 go to the Texas Water Development Board. They will review it, 2 and they will use the desired future conditions in the models 3 that they've got available, or any other models that are 4 available that they're going to use, and they will come up 5 with what's known as the managed available groundwater. Now, 6 this number is what's going to be used by the individual 7 groundwater districts for permitting purposes in the next few 8 years. And this is, as I mentioned earlier, an ongoing 9 dynamic process. We'll be reviewing these numbers every five 10 years, and those can be modified as new data becomes available 11 and so forth. And we've got to -- to come up with this 12 desired future conditions within the next few years. We're 13 actually trying to shoot for this year so we get a leg up, 14 because the regional planning processes are starting their 15 next five-year cycle. If we can get our manage -- our desired 16 future conditions set this year, then that can be incorporated 17 in the regional water planning processes that are getting 18 started in their five-year process. And it's a very complex 19 process, and I've just kind of glossed over it here, but I 20 would encourage you to stay in touch with your groundwater 21 districts. 22 MS. SUMMERLIN: It will be somewhere on that 23 continuum Feather talked about, from no pumping at all on one 24 end to pumping it dry on the other end, and we'll undoubtedly 25 come down somewhere in the middle. I don't think, looking -- 1-22-07 wk 68 1 from what I know now, I don't see how I can support 2 documentable recharge as our limit, because it's too low. 3 But, for example, the groundwater conservation districts that 4 are ahead of us and have a lot longer history -- for example, 5 the Ogallala aquifer up in the panhandle -- have long said 6 that their goal was to have 50 percent of the water in the 7 aquifer left in five years. They know it's a definable amount 8 up there and it will get depleted finally, but they want to 9 pace themselves. So, that's another option. Anything else? 10 Yes, sir? 11 AUDIENCE: Are they mining the water supplies in the 12 Ogallala? 13 MS. SUMMERLIN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And there is 14 big areas already that you can't pump anything out of any 15 more, that used to, you could. But, you know, they've done 16 all that wonderful irrigation of cotton and everything, and so 17 they want to phase it out. They don't want to just suddenly 18 change the rules, because there's just too much invested. 19 So -- 20 MR. WILSON: I guess when they go 50 percent, 21 everybody's going to leave. 22 MS. SUMMERLIN: We're going to think of some dry 23 land -- you know, go back to dry land farming. They have made 24 wonderful progress under this pressure, and how efficiently 25 they can irrigate. I mean, there's just no limits to human 1-22-07 wk 69 1 ingenuity, but there are limits to the water. 2 MR. WILSON: Before you leave, there's some handouts 3 if you want them. I have a few handouts, not many. 4 MS. SUMMERLIN: And I'm keeping a list of anybody 5 who wants the booklet mailed to them. I have two or three 6 coming in on the little forms. Thank you once again for 7 coming. Thanks so much. And thanks, Commissioners, for your 8 hospitality. 9 (Joint workshop adjourned at 3:49 p.m.) 10 - - - - - - - - - - 11 12 13 STATE OF TEXAS | 14 COUNTY OF KERR | 15 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 16 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my 17 capacity as County Clerk of the Commissioners Court 18 of Kerr County, Texas, at the time and place 19 heretofore set forth. 20 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 29th day of 21 January, 2007. 22 23 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 24 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 25 Certified Shorthand Reporter 1-22-07 wk