1 2 3 4 5 6 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 7 Workshop 8 Friday, February 23, 2007 9 8:00 a.m. 10 Commissioners' Courtroom 11 Kerr County Courthouse 12 Kerrville, Texas 13 14 15 16 17 REALIGNMENT OF DISTRICT COURTS 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 On Friday, February 23, 2007, at 8:00 a.m., a workshop 2 of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in the 3 Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, Kerrville, 4 Texas, and the following proceedings were had in open court: 5 P R O C E E D I N G S 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call to order this workshop of 7 the Kerr County Commissioners Court scheduled for this date 8 and time, February 23rd, 2007, at 8 a.m. It's a bit past that 9 time now. The item on the agenda is a report from and 10 discussion with Judge Ables and Judge Prohl regarding 11 realignment of the district courts. Judge Ables, thank you 12 for being here this morning. 13 JUDGE ABLES: Judge Prohl felt like he didn't have a 14 dog in the fight, and Bruce is supposed to be here any second. 15 Hi, Fred. 16 MR. HENNEKE: Morning. 17 JUDGE ABLES: Bruce is supposed to be here any 18 second. We talked a little bit about this when Bruce came in 19 for his budget request to get another assistant D.A. Steve 20 Wadsworth was hired, and that's working well. Pat, I guess it 21 was, you know, six or seven months ago that the county judges 22 for all four of my counties met, and we talked about the 23 growth of the four counties. This little handout I gave you 24 is from the Office of Court Administration, and it shows the 25 population in 2005 for the four counties is about 118,000 2-23-07 wk 3 1 people. Projections are -- are fairly significant for the 2 growth of these four counties over the next five to ten years, 3 and so we've met with the four county judges. It was a little 4 difficult, 'cause we had a lame duck in Kendall County, and we 5 were dealing with -- he was meeting with us, and then we had a 6 new one coming January the 1st. 7 Senator Wentworth said that if you want to try to 8 create a new district court, all four counties have to agree 9 wholeheartedly. I need a letter from all four counties. It's 10 not one of those things I'm going to get in a fight, period, 11 zero. And so that's what I told the county judges. Bandera 12 and Fredericksburg have -- and you guys have been pretty 13 malleable, but Kendall's been back and forth and back and 14 forth, and at this point I'm not sure exactly what they want 15 to do on -- on this thing. They see themselves as the most 16 significant player, 'cause they're the closest to San Antonio, 17 and they think they're going to have the biggest growth coming 18 out of San Antonio. In truth, their docket is not as big a 19 problem as Bandera. Kerrville and Bandera are Bruce's biggest 20 problems. 21 Kind of the big issue is our criminal docket. Our 22 civil docket, I feel like we're on top of. I think we're 23 moving cases as fast as attorneys want to have them move. 24 They'd probably gripe if we move them any faster. But our 25 criminal docket, we're getting farther behind. It's a pretty 2-23-07 wk 4 1 big number. When you see that in between 2003 and 2005, we 2 added 12,305 cases and disposed of 10,410 cases, that's -- 3 that's rocket numbers. Those are huge numbers to have that 4 many filings in three years, and have that many dispositions 5 in three years. But then the bad news is -- is that we went 6 from 2,800 cases pending in 2003 to 4,481 cases, so you're 7 just gradually losing track. I'm trying to give you an 8 overview; then y'all can ask whatever questions y'all want to 9 ask, if you don't mind. Most of those cases are criminal. 10 Our docket -- our pending docket is going to be about 11 65 percent criminal and about 35 percent civil. I don't know 12 if -- it's probably too late to do anything in this session. 13 There's a little chance that if we wanted to try to do 14 something this session to create another district court, we 15 could do it through an omnibus bill that Wentworth has in the 16 Senate Jurisprudence Committee, and that omnibus bill, you 17 know, you just got the -- the bare bones, and then you -- it's 18 a creation of district courts bill that has no specific courts 19 in it, but you might can go stick a court in during the 20 session. But it's getting a little late, and I don't know if 21 we could really do anything now, even if we wanted to do 22 something. 23 Here's the -- let me tell you what; the real issue 24 is not so much another judge. The real issue is manpower for 25 Bruce. When we added Wadsworth -- Steve Wadsworth, it has 2-23-07 wk 5 1 helped significantly. Tremendous help. But, I mean, you can 2 just imagine, Pat; you've got 4,000 cases, you got 4,000 3 clients, and you need to move all those cases, and they're 4 screaming at you and hollering at you. The last thing you 5 need is -- is five or six judges telling you to be in their 6 court at the same time. Bruce has a hard enough time 7 following me around the district doing his four counties 8 without having a bunch of judges hollering at him. You know, 9 the real problem is trying to keep up with the criminal docket 10 trying criminal cases. Right now, we try a criminal case 11 every other month in every county, and we have a civil case 12 every other month, and so, basically, that means six jury 13 trials in Kerr County and six jury -- criminal jury trials in 14 each of the counties, 24 cases, and we're losing ground by 15 literally 1,200 cases a year, so we never catch up. 16 And so the deal is, if Bruce is ever going to catch 17 up and try as many cases as we need to try, he doesn't need to 18 have four counties and 3,000 cases that he's chasing. And, 19 you know, if you're the -- if you're the D.A., every one of 20 those cases is the most important case in the world, with the 21 victims. And, you know, if you have one go bad, it just is a 22 horrible thing. So, he's getting ready for a Grand Jury, 23 interviewing all of his witnesses, and it's tough duty. And 24 kind of what brought this up is, we can't see ourselves ever 25 working ourselves out of the hole on our criminal backlog as 2-23-07 wk 6 1 long as Bruce was trying to cover 120,000 population with 2 three people in four counties. It just -- no matter how good 3 you are, it's -- at some point, you can't do it. So, that's 4 kind of an overview. 5 Did Bruce make it in? Hopefully he'll be here after 6 a while. But I'm not sure exactly what we can do. And -- I 7 -- there's one other thing. The County Court at Law judge in 8 Kendall County was reading the Government Code, and he thought 9 there was a little deal in there where if I assigned him -- 10 since I'm the regional presiding judge, I have the authority 11 to assign judges anywhere in the state. And there's a little 12 provision that if you have a county court at law judge, that 13 you can -- presiding judge can assign them to a court in the 14 county that they are in, and they have the jurisdiction of 15 that court. And I don't think any of the other presiding 16 judges have ever done this, but he read it that I could assign 17 him to my court, and he would have felony jurisdiction, hear 18 felony cases. And we've done some research with the Office of 19 Court Administration, and I think he may be right. 20 What that means is -- is that I might assign 21 Spencer -- Judge Brown, or Judge Palmer -- if we had a big 22 case that we need to have done, and need to have it done 23 quick, I could assign them to my court. They would take on my 24 jurisdiction and they could hear a felony case. And, so, we 25 might use that a little bit in Kendall and Kerr, if Judge 2-23-07 wk 7 1 Brown and Judge Palmer want to help out some on a special case 2 that needs to get moved. That's just something that we've 3 kind of come up with in the last week or so. But, once again, 4 it's not really a problem with more judges. The problem is, 5 is Bruce has got two assistants handling 3,000 cases in four 6 counties. So, that's kind of an overview quickly, early on 7 Friday morning. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Judge Ables, the -- the assignment of 9 county court at law judges, is that on a specific case-by-case 10 basis, or could it be a more global assignment to handle, say, 11 state -- state jail felonies? 12 JUDGE ABLES: Yeah. Really, what brought it up 13 is -- is I have -- I've been administrative judge for ten 14 years, and the court in Kendall County's been there for six 15 years. I have always given Judge Brown and Judge Palmer a 16 yearlong assignment to my court, and the reason I did it is if 17 there was a TRO, an emergency protective order, and I was on 18 vacation or in the hospital, or vice-versa, we could do those 19 things for each other, and so we've always had that in place. 20 And Judge Palmer went and looked at the statutes, and thought 21 that that standing order would give him authority to hear 22 felony cases, and so that's possible now. I think that it's 23 possible that I could give Judge Brown and Judge Palmer a 24 standing order, and we might could assign them the -- the 25 state jail felony docket. Bruce would probably need to talk 2-23-07 wk 8 1 to -- to Mr. Emerson -- to Rex and see what he thinks about 2 that, and the County Attorney in Kendall County, Don Allee, 3 and see what he thinks, see if they could spare a deputy -- an 4 assistant, or maybe get a little funding for maybe an 5 assistant to do those. But, yes, I think that's possible. We 6 might could do that. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We also -- and I understand a lot of 8 the problem is prosecution resources. 9 JUDGE ABLES: Yes, sir. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: And, of course, we -- we made a 11 significant increase in those resources with this current 12 budget year when we authorized a new assistant D.A. and also 13 an investigator, which I'm given to understand is a tremendous 14 resource to prosecutors in putting together these cases, which 15 frees up the prosecutors to actually present the cases -- 16 JUDGE ABLES: Yeah. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: -- as they may need to. That -- 18 JUDGE ABLES: Tremendous help. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: We don't know whether that's going to 20 be -- have the desired effect? 21 JUDGE ABLES: Yeah. Yesterday was, I think, a real 22 good example of how we're making some huge strides. It was 23 a -- a bad day, with the bomb scare, and we were way behind. 24 And -- hello, Bruce. 25 (Bruce Curry entered the courtroom.) 2-23-07 wk 9 1 JUDGE ABLES: We had a courtroom full of people, and 2 Judge Prohl's jury trial cratered in Brady, and so he was in 3 one courtroom, and we had Steve Wadsworth in one room, Bruce 4 and Lucy in another room, then the other -- one of them 5 talking to attorneys, making -- not making deals, but talking 6 to them about their case. And so one's talking to attorneys, 7 one's prosecuting in front of me, one's prosecuting in front 8 of Bruce (sic), and boy, we got -- we emptied the jail. We 9 got a lot of people out of jail yesterday. And so I think 10 Wadsworth is a huge help, and the investigator, I think, is a 11 huge help. But if we are going to try to do a state jail 12 felony thing maybe in Kendall County, we might need to have 13 somebody in the County Attorney's office to kind of get a leg 14 up. I think we might can get some help, and maybe we can move 15 some things, but ultimately, I think we're fooling ourselves 16 if we think that if we get up to 130,000, 140,000 population 17 in this part of the country, that Bruce and one district judge 18 -- one district court can handle it. We're -- maybe not this 19 session, but we're getting close to being too big. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: There was -- there were some issues 21 earlier also, as part of the budget process; there was a 22 concern about jail population and -- and the need to try and 23 keep that down. And the suggestion was made that if the 24 County -- since the State no longer funds your visiting or 25 special judges, if the County were to provide some funding for 2-23-07 wk 10 1 judges to handle these cases that need to plead out or 2 something, and provide the funding for that, that that might 3 help solve a problem. We provided some funding, and what 4 effect has that had on -- on assisting with the problem? 5 JUDGE ABLES: Not too much so far, but Judge Prohl 6 has scheduled a -- a day next week to do just revocation of 7 probation, all his revocation cases, and he's trying to come 8 up with some special days. And what he's -- the way he's 9 trying to arrange it is, he will do it if his docket falls in 10 another county, but if it doesn't, then we'll get Judge 11 Sherrill to come in and to run those -- those dockets. I just 12 have to be real careful about how much retired judge money I 13 spend, 'cause I've got to do it for 27 counties, and last year 14 we were a little bit over budget. Fortunately, another region 15 was under budget, so we came out all right. So, I have to be 16 careful. And if there's a little line item for -- for retired 17 judges to sit to do a big -- couple of big docket days a 18 month, that would be helpful. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, we -- my recollection is -- and 20 I think it's there -- we provided in both budgets, 198th and 21 216th, some additional funds for judges to do exactly that. 22 And I think there -- there's still some funds there, is my 23 point, the county funds. 24 JUDGE ABLES: What I'm trying to do on that is, if 25 -- if I use all my state money and I don't run out, then we 2-23-07 wk 11 1 don't have to use the County's money. And so I probably would 2 use it at the very end, and with my fingers crossed that I can 3 use state -- I've got a line item with the state, and so 4 that's my insurance to go against if I run out of money. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, I appreciate that explanation. 6 That helps me understand why we are where we are. 7 JUDGE ABLES: Right. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 9 JUDGE ABLES: I'm telling Judge Sherrill and Judge 10 Jordan to go ahead and fill out your affidavits for me to send 11 in to the Comptroller, and when I see that I'm out of money, 12 then we'll come back and make an application to the County. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, Bandera County does not 15 have a county court at law? 16 JUDGE ABLES: They don't. There's some talk about 17 that. You know, they're building a new courthouse; it was in 18 the paper this morning. They're going to have two courtrooms 19 in the new courthouse. And Richard Evans has talked a little 20 bit about it. There hasn't been a lot of talk; just kind of 21 mentioned, "I wonder if we'll ever want to have a county court 22 at law," that sort of thing. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The reason I bring it up, I 24 mean, obviously, by your numbers, Bandera County's about as 25 big a problem as Kerr County, just about. And if you look at 2-23-07 wk 12 1 population projections, Bandera County is going to grow faster 2 than Kerr or Kendall. 3 JUDGE ABLES: Yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Long-range, close to 80,000 in 5 the next five years. 6 (Commissioner Baldwin entered the courtroom.) 7 JUDGE ABLES: Hi, Buster. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Hi. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To me, I don't know -- Bandera 10 -- you're talking -- I mean, Kendall County would help; they 11 just don't have that many cases. Bandera County, really, I 12 don't know what you can do, but it seems if they could get a 13 county court at law, it might help alleviate some of the 14 problems in Bandera County. I don't know if they want to do 15 that step right now, or may not want to do it, but -- 16 JUDGE ABLES: The county court at law is -- is a 17 bigger hit on the county, usually, 'cause they pick up most of 18 the salary, although the Legislature's dealing with a county 19 court at law bill right now to maybe change that formula about 20 how to pay the salary for the county court at law judge. But 21 if you look at Kendall County's numbers, we're not in the hole 22 there, and I think that's because Judge Palmer's County Court 23 at Law; he's there every day, and with us splitting that 24 docket up, we're not falling behind in Kendall County any 25 more, and so that's a good example of what we can do if they 2-23-07 wk 13 1 get a county court at law. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is there any talk about 3 creating a county court at law in Bandera? 4 JUDGE ABLES: We never really talked about it, 5 'cause there wasn't a place for it in the old courthouse. 6 There was absolutely no place for that person to be. With the 7 new courthouse, my guess is that when it's built, that then 8 the Commissioners Court's going to say, "We got an extra 9 courtroom, an extra office here. Let's see how much it'd 10 cost." That would be my guess. But to this point, there 11 never has been any talk, 'cause there's no -- nothing to do, 12 no place to put them. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That would take some of the 14 pressure off. 15 JUDGE ABLES: It would take some of the pressure off 16 me. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. 18 JUDGE ABLES: It doesn't help Bruce, because he 19 would still be prosecuting all the felonies in Bandera County. 20 Even though you got a county court at law over there, unless 21 we -- I make an assignment, if I'm still the administrative 22 judge and I have the authority to make an assignment, and 23 assign this person -- we play a little game; assign them to do 24 some felonies. But, once again, it's kind of hard to follow 25 the logic, but the more judges, in some ways, it makes it more 2-23-07 wk 14 1 difficult for Bruce to keep up with all of them. Sometimes 2 judges can be cantankerous and say, you know, "I want you in 3 my court." "No, I want you in my court." "No, I want you in 4 my court," and create a problem for him if he's having to 5 cover all of them, and a bunch of bosses. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are you getting us ready for 7 another -- more assistance for Bruce's office next budget? 8 JUDGE ABLES: Well, I'm going to let him speak for 9 himself on that. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Glad you said that. That's 11 exactly what it sounds like. 12 JUDGE ABLES: Well, I'll say this. If we were to -- 13 if Kendall County were to step up and say, "We're going to 14 fund an Assistant D.A. who's just going to do the stuff in 15 Kendall County, and Bruce has got somebody over there that's 16 on the ground, I think it's kind of like Amos does here in 17 Kerr County -- Amos Barton. You know, he -- y'all pay for, I 18 think, most of Amos, don't you? I'm not sure how Ronnie does 19 that funding, but Amos does all of Kerr County, pretty much. 20 Then he's got some other -- another assistant, Tanya, whatever 21 her name is, over in Brady and Mason. You know, maybe Kendall 22 County steps up, puts it in their budget to have somebody over 23 there. Maybe Bandera steps up and they put it in their budget 24 to provide for an assistant that's there that Bruce has on the 25 ground in Bandera talking to police officers, working up the 2-23-07 wk 15 1 Grand Juries, doing the prosecution. So, maybe it's not just 2 you. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It seems like that's a -- I 4 mean, Kerr County needs to pay our share, but they need to 5 start stepping up, Bandera especially, to me. I mean, I don't 6 know how you put pressure on Bandera to do that, but that's 7 where the biggest problem is. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Maybe you should have this 9 same kind of meeting with them. 10 JUDGE ABLES: Sure, absolutely. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that there's a -- just 12 looking at the numbers, that's where Bruce needs them, it 13 looks like to me, is Bandera County, as much as Kendall 14 County. 15 JUDGE ABLES: Now, we talked about early on that the 16 county judges -- there are all kind of bandaids we can do. We 17 can brainstorm and come up with different things. I think 18 we're just thinking about the inevitability of -- of having a 19 manageable population for a district court. Rule of thumb's 20 usually been 50,000 per district court, and we're at 118,000, 21 maybe going to be at 120,000, maybe -- I mean 125,000 in five 22 years. And, so, at some point, try to get to that rule of 23 thumb of 50,000 population per district court. But, yeah, I 24 think there are a lot of bandaids that we can do. And let me 25 tell you something, Bruce is a magician. He is a miracle 2-23-07 wk 16 1 worker on how we move our docket. It -- we turn a lot of 2 cases, tremendous amount of cases. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is -- and Linda may be better; 4 maybe y'all can answer this. With the new tracking and the 5 accounting that we're doing, tracking cases from jail all the 6 way through the courts, supposedly -- I guess we're doing it; 7 we're supposed to do it. Is there any way that we can 8 document that if you have more assistance with Bruce and get 9 these court cases through the system quicker, it's saving the 10 counties money 'cause we can get the jail population lower? I 11 mean, to me, if you can -- if you can, that's the way to show 12 Kendall County and Bandera County you're saving money by 13 getting -- by hiring another prosecutor. And do we have the 14 capability to figure out that, Linda, that you're aware of? 15 MS. UECKER: I don't know that I can answer that 16 right off. You know, several months ago we had talked to 17 Judge Ables and Judge Prohl, the Sheriff and I, about kind of 18 the speed docket, the early morning. And that kind of hit a 19 wall, I think, with the D.A.'s offices, and it kind of stopped 20 right there. Judge Prohl and Ables were both, you know, 21 willing to try it, as well as Rex, and -- but I don't think I 22 ever talked to Bruce personally about it. I did talk to Amos. 23 And he had -- I mean, to me, that would be, see, an answer. 24 And, you know, Judge Ables is right; with the criminal 25 stuff -- like yesterday, I had over half of my staff in the 2-23-07 wk 17 1 courtroom yesterday. It put a real bind in my office up 2 front. And, you know, the more judges you get in there, the 3 more support people it's going to take as well. And, you 4 know, I'd really like to see us try the speed docket. I don't 5 know what -- 6 JUDGE ABLES: I guess the only way you can track it 7 is you have an average jail population on "X" date; you put 8 something in effect, and then you look and see what your 9 average jail population is after you've put something in 10 place. And I think you do have a hard number on what it costs 11 you per day to have somebody in the jail, so you can see what 12 that savings is. It's hard, though, because you don't want to 13 get too much into -- to the numbers you're pulling down, 14 'cause some people should not be out on bond, and they're -- 15 they need to be in jail till we have a trial, and you don't 16 want to get too obsessed with just getting a person out of 17 jail. You want to make sure the system works properly. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry I'm late. I just had 20 one too many balls in the air this morning. But talking about 21 realignment, -- 22 JUDGE ABLES: Mm-hmm. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: -- are you guys talk -- 24 thinking, or is it ever going to be thought of, of making Kerr 25 County a single district, or to separate you two guys in 2-23-07 wk 18 1 districts? Is that what we're talking about at all? 2 JUDGE ABLES: Oh, we talked with the county judges 3 about if you took Bandera and Gillespie and -- and Kendall and 4 put them together, that that's probably going to get to be too 5 big pretty soon, so you're trying to figure out how you can 6 get two populations that fit their formula. And kind of -- I 7 think you're right, Jonathan; you're going to see Bandera and 8 Kerr, I think, continue to grow tremendously. We've kind of 9 got infrastructure in both those places, where Kendall just 10 seems to live off San Antonio's infrastructure, mostly 11 homes -- residences coming in there. So, Bandera's probably 12 the leader -- one of the leaders. On the other end, 13 Fredericksburg's probably a long way out to have the 14 population. So, it just kept coming back to that being the 15 two-county/two-county split. But, you know, I -- who knows 16 what's going to happen in the next five years? I don't know. 17 We're just kind of brainstorming. 18 Kerr, by itself -- you know, one of the problems 19 is -- is that Karl's got not only, you know, a big docket, but 20 a lot of miles, and not very much money, you know, in those 21 other counties. The way district courts are set up around the 22 state, there's always kind of a financial center somewhere 23 tied to a bunch of counties when you're in the rural areas, 24 and it would be difficult, I think, for Mason, Menard, 25 Junction, and Brady to pay for everything that goes on in the 2-23-07 wk 19 1 court, because they're small populations, small budgets. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: The -- what is the status 3 with visiting judges these days? Is that money drying up, or 4 are they not going to renew it, or -- 5 JUDGE ABLES: I think they're going to keep us at 6 the same amount. The appropriations committee, at their first 7 workup, didn't cut it. And they allowed to us drag our unused 8 budget, our U.B., from last year. The first two years, we 9 couldn't use our U.B., our unused portion of our budget, but 10 they changed it, and we drug about $350,000 that we didn't use 11 from the year before to this year. We have enough money for 12 senior judges to keep the court running. What we used to do 13 is, we used to use it in order to do, like, a task force; send 14 a judge in there for two months every day and try to get a 15 docket set up. I don't have the money to do that. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 17 JUDGE ABLES: I can only send them a day or two, but 18 I have enough money to keep everybody up and running all the 19 time. It's just going to hurt if I had to -- somebody got 20 really sick, disabled, was out for six months, that would bust 21 my budget, you know, if I did that. There's a retired judge 22 lobby. They've got a lobbyist, and they're asking for a 23 little more money, but I don't -- I think it's going to stay 24 the same as last year. Not a cut, but same as last year. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Please don't send that guy 2-23-07 wk 20 1 from A & M back down here. 2 JUDGE ABLES: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly. 4 JUDGE ABLES: Judge Phillips -- Chief Justice 5 Phillips sent the guy from A & M down here; I didn't send him. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's get the record clear about 7 that. 8 JUDGE ABLES: Very clear on that. 9 MS. UECKER: I understand that from the Supreme 10 Court Rules Committee last week -- did you get to go? 11 JUDGE ABLES: No, but other presiding judges did, 12 and I talked to them about it. 13 MS. UECKER: Okay. I understand that Nathan Hecht 14 is talking again about making all county courts at law 15 district courts. Have you heard anything about that? 16 JUDGE ABLES: There's a bill -- a county court at 17 law bill to give standard jurisdiction, to have them all paid 18 for by the state. There's a lot of fighting, 'cause the urban 19 county court at law judges make more than -- than state 20 district judges make, and the retirement is generally much 21 better -- the county retirement programs are -- than the state 22 retirement program, so they're working the fight out between 23 them. It's like they don't want to get a pay cut, plus they 24 don't want to be in a different retirement plan. And then you 25 got some counties who don't want the State to tell them what 2-23-07 wk 21 1 their jurisdiction is; they've created a jurisdiction limit 2 for that court for a purpose, and now the State's trying to 3 come in and say it's a different jurisdiction. I don't know 4 how that's going to happen. Here's the deal, though. Senator 5 Duncan wants to do it, and he is the 500-pound gorilla. 6 Duncan wants to have a -- a standard jurisdiction for all the 7 county courts at law, and wants them to be paid for by the 8 State, so who knows? Duncan might get his way. I mean, we're 9 in the legislative session. It's scary; there's a lot of 10 things that can happen in the next couple of months. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Bruce? 12 MR. CURRY: Yes, sir? 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we know yet what effect this 14 additional prosecutor and investigator that we just recently 15 authorized, what -- what effect that is having upon the load 16 that's on you to handle this backlog of cases? 17 MR. CURRY: Well, I've got a feel for it. I'm not 18 sure I can -- but -- but, oh, tremendous. And I think -- I'm 19 sorry, I came in a little bit in the middle of Steve's 20 presentation there, but from what he was saying, yesterday was 21 a great example. A lot of that had to do with him. I mean, 22 he is -- the new assistant, I'm talking about -- in a position 23 to be that individual that can communicate with these while 24 everybody else is doing something else, and he's made a lot 25 of -- negotiated pleas and made contacts. That just takes 2-23-07 wk 22 1 time, and that's been one of the problems. We just haven't 2 had the staff to do that. So, I would -- I would say that my 3 gut feeling is that it's having a big effect time-wise. I'm 4 not sure I can say yeah, absolutely, for sure. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: We don't know the full effect yet, 6 probably, but -- 7 MR. CURRY: That's correct. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: -- your sense of it is that it's 9 making a pretty good difference? 10 MR. CURRY: Absolutely, no question. The 11 investigator, likewise. It's a -- in some -- I guess you 12 might look at that as a benefit. That's kind of a personnel 13 thing, because he, you know, just is easy to talk to somebody 14 and have them do something. But we've seen dividends coming 15 off of that with these other agencies when we -- I generally 16 have the agencies every week come to my office, for instance. 17 It's just a procedure I have, and they sit down and we go over 18 the Grand Jury, the representative from the -- the police 19 department, the Sheriff's Office from each community, and we 20 do that type thing. And to have that investigator there to 21 coordinate with them has been a -- a big boon, and I think 22 every one of them appreciate -- of course, the personality of 23 the person I hired has to do with that, and I think everybody 24 really likes this person. So, I don't know if you've met him; 25 Ernie Lobello is the person I hired. He's really good. 2-23-07 wk 23 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are both of those new positions 2 being shared throughout the district? 3 MR. CURRY: Yes. Yes. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, basically, I mean -- 5 JUDGE ABLES: By population. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, by -- if -- going back to my 7 earlier question, we're being asked for another one this year, 8 and that's -- but that helps all the counties. It helps -- it 9 would solve part of the Bandera problem if you had more staff? 10 MR. CURRY: Well, yes. I mean, sure, I think it 11 would. Just -- we've been talking about this thing that's 12 coming up in Kendall County. I've got really mixed emotions. 13 That's really -- I'm trying to think through that situation, 14 how that will work. It's not just a Bandera problem. And, 15 actually, Kendall County, on a scale of the four counties, is 16 probably next to least of the problem, so I'm -- we're 17 spending a lot of time trying to fix a problem that's not as 18 big as the others. But Bandera, as you pointed out, and Kerr 19 County are our problem counties, and the plan in Boerne that 20 they're coming up with or talking about may detract, actually, 21 a little bit. Because, you know, I mean, that could nullify 22 the new assistant, you know, if you got a judge over there 23 calling this docket and we got to respond. Well, boom, there 24 goes that person to Kendall County, nearly assigned. Because 25 I don't know that -- I don't know what the scheduling would be 2-23-07 wk 24 1 or how that would work, but I've got some concerns about that. 2 And I've got some concerns about turning that 3 prosecution over to another agency, the County Attorney's 4 office, because, you know, that's a felony issue; that's my 5 responsibility. If there's a -- a mess-up, that's my problem. 6 That goes to the Grand Juries, and I'm not sure I'm quite 7 willing to just give that away to someone. You know, there's 8 no allegiance factor, no philosophy factor. There's all kind 9 of problems, so I would feel very uncomfortable just -- 10 just -- you know, it's easy. It'd be easy to say, "You guys 11 just go do all that," but I'm not sure that's appropriate. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you think it works better for 13 you to have a prosecutor or investigator hired the way we did 14 last year, that gets split out around throughout your 15 district, or to have a special one from -- you know, part-time 16 for Bandera, part-time for Kendall -- I mean, multiple people 17 that are just part-time for -- and they are only working one 18 county? 19 MR. CURRY: Well, it would depend on the personality 20 and the situation. I -- my gut feeling is to have a full-time 21 that you can move around. Now, if you do this thing with the 22 county court at laws, and we do something like that, then I 23 think it very well might be appropriate to hire an assistant 24 and assign them to that county, but I think it ought to be 25 hired out of the District Attorney's office, or the agency 2-23-07 wk 25 1 that has the ultimate responsibility for that prosecution. 2 You know, that I think would be appropriate, because you got 3 the judge sitting there, and there's going to be more docket 4 calls. There's just -- it would make more sense. And, for 5 instance, in Kendall County, I think when I made my 6 presentation to you all before the budget, I think I may have 7 represented to you that I thought that we were going to get 8 all the space in Kendall -- well, that didn't develop. They 9 haven't developed the third floor of the Kendall County 10 Courthouse. Rex has been nice enough to give us an office 11 over here for these people to sit in, so they're now in Kerr 12 County. But I have subsequently been offered -- I think they 13 were a little -- I don't know. Well, anyway, I was offered an 14 office on the second floor of the Kendall County Courthouse, 15 so if we did get an assistant over there, there is a place for 16 that person. But I think that would be the time when you'd 17 want to designate when that person's really going to spend 18 their time there, and it's -- it's geared towards one court. 19 But, you know, if we needed help in Kerr County, I'm sure 20 going to want to be able to use that person. The person we 21 hired lives in Doss; he's in Gillespie County. He's got a 22 long drive to go anywhere, except maybe Kerrville. But 23 that's -- I think that would be, in my opinion, the way it 24 would work best. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: The utilization of the county courts 2-23-07 wk 26 1 at law, that possibility, by assignment or otherwise, do you 2 know of any rural type districts where that's been 3 implemented? 4 MR. CURRY: I personally do not. In fact, I wasn't 5 sure you could do it. Steve checked on it, and until this 6 week I didn't even know that was a possibility for an actively 7 sitting county court at law judge. But, no, I haven't 8 inquired particularly, but I don't know of any. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, of course, we might find the 10 answer to that question pretty much across the board if -- if 11 Denham gets his way. 12 MR. CURRY: That's right. 13 JUDGE ABLES: I'm still a little bit concerned about 14 the county courts at law. I talked to the Office of Court 15 Administration legal staff. We have two cases where a 16 judge -- presiding judge assigned a county court at law judge 17 in a civil case, and one of them, there was a challenge to the 18 jurisdiction of the judge, and the Court said the challenge 19 was good; they didn't have jurisdiction. But it's because the 20 assignment was wrong, and if it had been written more broadly, 21 it probably would have held up. And it was a tax case. Well, 22 I wish I had a criminal case, you know. I hate to have a 23 county court at law judge assigned -- he's got a statute that 24 says he's limited on his jurisdiction, and a Chapter 74 25 Government Code that says I've got the authority to assign 2-23-07 wk 27 1 them. And I'd hate for the appellate court to come, bang, 2 bang, and say, "Well, in a criminal case, you got a person who 3 only does misdemeanors, and we're not going to enhance your 4 jurisdiction just because the presiding judge assigned him," 5 and we've got some big criminal case we took two weeks to try 6 get reversed. So, I'm still a little concerned about it. The 7 -- the staff over there says, "I think you can do it." But we 8 all wish we had a criminal case that said it was okay. 9 MR. CURRY: And an Attorney General's opinion 10 request might be appropriate. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Your point about the philosophy, 12 and all of a sudden you're relying on a different elected 13 official who may or may not share your view on criminal 14 matters, it gets into a pretty difficult situation 15 potentially. I mean, it may work, but it also can be a real 16 nightmare. 17 MR. CURRY: Well, it could, and a little more 18 problem than that. If there's a Brady violation or civil 19 rights violation that I don't even know it's going on, it's my 20 office. That's a reflection. And I think that person ought 21 to be your employee if you're going to be using them in your 22 function. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: What else, gentlemen? Any other 24 questions? Comments? Concerns for anybody present? 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Guess we'll see y'all at budget. 2-23-07 wk 28 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. 2 JUDGE ABLES: I'm going to -- Gaylan Schroeder's the 3 new County Judge over in Kendall County. Real nice guy, and I 4 think I'm going to try to have lunch with him in Boerne week 5 after next, just to kind of see what his temperature is, what 6 they're thinking about. I can let you know a little bit more 7 after I've talked with Judge Schroeder. I'll get with Richard 8 Evans next week; got a Juvenile Board meeting, and I'm going 9 to see if they're starting to think more about county court at 10 law. The bond issue passed, and they let it out for bid. I 11 can try to give you a little bit more on that. Mark Stroeher 12 in Gillespie County, they've been a little bit like, you know, 13 "Whatever you guys want to do." That's kind of been their 14 attitude. What everybody else wants to do, we'll go along 15 with. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Team player approach. 17 JUDGE ABLES: Team player approach, yeah. I 18 appreciate you being concerned about it; I really do. It 19 means a lot to us. The good news is that Bruce and Karl and 20 I, Rex, we all work together really well -- Spencer. And 21 that's the main thing, as long as we all get along and like to 22 help each other, so that we'll be all right. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Of course, we were hopeful that this 24 last increase that we gave in staffing for Bruce's office was 25 going to help, and obviously it's helped some, but we probably 2-23-07 wk 29 1 don't know the full degree yet. And -- but that's not going 2 to remain static. That's going to continue to grow, and we're 3 going to have to contend with it. Anything else, gentlemen? 4 JUDGE PROHL: Just one thing I have to say, is what 5 makes it work -- and Linda's staff has been so great, like 6 yesterday, we ran a double docket in the 216th. And Judge 7 Ables and I do that a lot; when I don't have something in 8 another county or he doesn't have something, we come and sit 9 in each other's -- take each other's dockets. And, so, he was 10 doing pretrials in one courtroom; I was doing his pleas and 11 pretrials for him in the other courtroom, and I bet you we got 12 20 people out of jail yesterday on pleas. And by having that 13 investigator and that other Assistant District Attorney, you 14 can split those two, and it saves the County a ton of money, 15 because you -- you don't have to say, "Well, we don't have 16 time; we got to roll those over to next month." 17 And that's -- that's why you -- the other thing that 18 we're doing, and this is really in the infant stage, but Judge 19 Ables and I are working out -- we got the forms just about 20 done in a docket management system that could substantially 21 impact our indigent defense expenditures, I mean, 22 substantially, if we can get this -- it's hard, with five 23 counties, to get this to work, but we're going to try to, 24 which will cut down on the number of pretrials, number of 25 court appearances, will move the cases a lot faster. And -- 2-23-07 wk 30 1 and it works pretty well in the 33rd District. We sort of 2 copied some of the things they have, but if we can put this 3 thing in place, you guys -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Can you explain what -- how is 5 it going to -- 6 JUDGE PROHL: Well, what it does is, what we do now 7 is most of the time we end up having to roll these cases from 8 month to month till we get to them, you know. We get rid of 9 five cases; we get 15 new ones. And what this does is this 10 comes in -- and say you have an arraignment, which is the 11 first pretrial. The District Attorney gives them a plea 12 package -- a plea offer; then you set it on what's called a 13 28.01 pretrial hearing. That's the next hearing, and they 14 have to have all the motions filed that they're going to file 15 at that time, or they don't get to file them, unless there's 16 some overriding reason. And then you go plea docket, trial 17 docket, instead of having five pretrials or six pretrials and 18 say, "Well, I don't want to take a plea. I might take a 19 plea." You get them where they have to come in before the 20 Court one of these docket days with their client, with the 21 D.A., and have to discuss with their client, with the D.A. 22 present, with the Court, what the plea offer is. Is it going 23 to trial? Is it going to the trial docket or plea docket? 24 And you dispose of it. What it does, it just cuts down all 25 the appearances and the time. And -- and, you know, really, 2-23-07 wk 31 1 it should make a big difference, but it's going to be tough to 2 implement. I think we can do it. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: This is a system that Judge Gil Jones 4 has developed? 5 JUDGE PROHL: Yeah. You go -- you can go online. I 6 mean, he's a guru. I mean, I have trouble even finding it, 7 but you go online and he's got -- everything he does is 8 online. You can file all your motions online. You can get 9 your trial settings online. We're not going to do that, 10 because Steve and I can't run a computer that well, but the 11 format will work; it's just not online. But you can pull up 12 his documents and his -- 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Are -- based upon the history of what 14 he's developed, have there been numbers developed about what 15 the savings have been on the indigent defense side? 16 JUDGE PROHL: Now, I'm not -- I've not asked him 17 that. The ones I've talked to have that actually experienced 18 the system are Clay and Harold, and they both go over there a 19 lot, and they say it is a rocket docket. I mean, they say, 20 you know, D.A.'s over there don't like it; defense attorneys 21 don't like it, but everybody agrees we get cases done, get 22 them moving, and move on. That's what we need to do, and it's 23 hard sometimes. Recordkeeping's hard sometimes. You know, 24 you're always afraid if you -- if you don't set a case for 25 another pretrial shortly, it will get -- it will get dropped 2-23-07 wk 32 1 in a black hole somewhere, and then you'll wake up -- and I 2 have that in some of my counties, where what the County shows 3 as outstanding criminal cases and what the D.A. shows as 4 outstanding criminal cases are apples and oranges. So, we're 5 having to go back and get what the County shows and clean up 6 all those cases, because they just fall off the docket, and if 7 no one's pushing them, you don't know about it. This will 8 eliminate that and help us to do it. But that's just a 9 thought that y'all might -- we're trying to help, anyway. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Judge Jones is in -- 11 JUDGE PROHL: Burnett. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, but his area is a pretty 13 rapidly growing area, also. 14 JUDGE PROHL: Well, we -- 15 JUDGE TINLEY: As I recall, similar to here. 16 JUDGE PROHL: More so. He has the lakes area over 17 in Burnett, and he just got a new district court over there. 18 JUDGE ABLES: Now they're -- 19 JUDGE PROHL: Isn't that right? Did they overlap? 20 JUDGE ABLES: He and Dan Mills overlap, but they're 21 going to the Legislature to separate the four counties, where 22 Dan Mills will take San Saba and Johnson City. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Blanco. 24 JUDGE ABLES: Yeah, Blanco. San Saba, Blanco, and 25 you got Johnson City and Burnett; they'll go with Gil Jones. 2-23-07 wk 33 1 So, they're doing kind of what we talked about. And, 2 actually, they have, like, 40,000 less population than we 3 have; they're only at 80,000. They're going to split their 4 district into two counties apiece. 5 JUDGE PROHL: One thing that helps -- that helps is 6 if -- if they're able to do this and come back, and then Steve 7 has two counties in the 216th and we still have our five 8 counties, is that it gives us the ability to give better 9 service to Kerr County in particular, 'cause Steve will be 10 here more and we can overlap more. And still, it doesn't 11 jeopardize my counties. I mean, they have extreme -- y'all 12 know, they have real difficulties financially, and if they 13 were cut out and you say, okay, we're going to make Kerr 14 County a single district -- first of all, I'm not sure Kerr 15 County -- I think Kerr County's -- one judge couldn't handle 16 Kerr County; I'll just tell you that. But in our counties, if 17 you cut them out, they -- we got 2,500 population in a couple 18 of them. I have one person -- attorney in two counties, and 19 it would be a real -- real problem. I think that would be -- 20 they would be stressed if they thought they were going to be 21 hung out on that nail, to say the least. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've got a question. I went 23 on a rampage in Austin yesterday, and as usual, I knew about 24 half of what I was talking about, but it was the issue of -- 25 what I do understand is that M.H.M.R. has all of their -- our 2-23-07 wk 34 1 jails are full of their people. And -- but what I don't 2 understand is, even though that is true, does the people that 3 commit crimes -- let's pretend that M.H.M.R. builds a new 4 hospital or adds a lot of beds and that kind of thing. Do 5 these people still -- that are in our jail now, would they 6 still go through your system, because they've broken the law? 7 Or -- 8 JUDGE ABLES: Absolutely. If it's a criminal 9 offense, they go through our system. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sorry? 11 JUDGE ABLES: If they're charged with a criminal 12 offense, they go through our system. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: They still go through. 14 JUDGE ABLES: And we determine whether they're going 15 to go to a mental hospital or whether or not they'll stay in 16 jail, with the jail population. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I see. 18 JUDGE ABLES: So, yeah. Andrea Yates, she's right 19 there in our hospital, after going through the criminal 20 justice system. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's comforting. 22 JUDGE ABLES: You know, it seems like we're doing 23 more of that; we're having more competency issues. I don't 24 know why, but don't you think -- 25 MR. CURRY: Oh, yeah. 2-23-07 wk 35 1 JUDGE ABLES: More and more competency issues. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Did I get lost in Austin? 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Did you get lost and end up at the 4 office of Advocacy? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, never made it that far. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Had fun, though, I can tell 8 you that. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, gentlemen? 10 JUDGE ABLES: Thanks. We'll keep you posted. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you for being here. We'll be 12 adjourned. 13 (Commissioners Court workshop adjourned at 8:46 a.m.) 14 - - - - - - - - - - 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-23-07 wk 36 1 STATE OF TEXAS | 2 COUNTY OF KERR | 3 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 4 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my 5 capacity as County Clerk of the Commissioners Court 6 of Kerr County, Texas, at the time and place 7 heretofore set forth. 8 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 26th day of 9 February, 2007. 10 11 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 12 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 13 Certified Shorthand Reporter 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2-23-07 wk