1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 KERR COUNTY COMMISSIONERS COURT 9 Regular Session 10 Tuesday, November 13, 2007 11 8:00 a.m. 12 Commissioners' Courtroom 13 Kerr County Courthouse 14 Kerrville, Texas 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 PRESENT: PAT TINLEY, Kerr County Judge H. A. "BUSTER" BALDWIN, Commissioner Pct. 1 24 WILLIAM "BILL" WILLIAMS, Commissioner Pct. 2 JONATHAN LETZ, Commissioner Pct. 3 25 BRUCE OEHLER, Commissioner Pct. 4 2 1 I N D E X November 13, 2007 2 PAGE --- Commissioners' Comments 6 3 1.3 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 4 request by Hill Country Alternate Dispute Resolution Center to renew contract with Kerr 5 County to provide mediation services & for funding 7 1.4 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 6 Martin-Marietta Flood Plain Permit 9 1.16 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 7 approve order to vacate, close & abandon old portion of Upper Turtle Creek Road, execution 8 of road dedication deed for new portion, Judge to sign both documents, & Road and Bridge to 9 open new roadway to traffic & close old portion 15 1.17 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action for 10 concept of Longbow Subdivision 16 1.18 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 11 release Letter of Credit #25399-S for Live Springs Ranch 19 12 1.20 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on draft Kerr County Subdivision Rules and 13 Regulations 20 1.21 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 14 determining procedure to review various options to solve long-term jail overcrowding problems 15 and other issues related to Kerr County Jail 25 1.23 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 16 receive and approve bids for RFQ for planning services at HCYEC; review recommendation from 17 review committee and award contract for planning services 27 18 1.5 Consider/discuss, take action to approve creation of new position at Juvenile Detention Facility and 19 options of filling if new position is created 29 1.6 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 20 approving contract between Kerr County Juvenile Detention Facility and Dr. Chris Meriwether to 21 act as facility's Health Director 40 1.7 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 22 advertise for bids for digital video recording system for Juvenile Detention Facility 42 23 1.22 Consider/discuss, authorize Sheriff to dispose of three county vehicles 44 24 1.24 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on Commissioner Letz providing opinions to Road 25 and Bridge Department concerning subdivision platting requirements 47 3 1 I N D E X (Continued) November 13, 2007 2 PAGE 1.1 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on 3 request from Riverhill Oaks Homeowners Association to rent Union Church at $37.50 for 3 dates in 2008 51 4 1.25 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to cast votes for Director of Kerr County 5 Appraisal District 54 1.2 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to renew 6 Kerr County Market Days usage License for 2008 59 1.26 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to 7 approve employee voluntary supplemental in- surance programs or plans with guaranteed issue 8 and county-approved electronic enrollment features and funded through employee payroll 9 deduction; authorize County Judge to sign agreement for same 65 10 1.8 Public Hearing for final revision of Plat for Lots 1, 5, 6, 11, 12 & 13 of Hill River Country Estates 85 11 1.9 Public Hearing for final revision of Plat for Lots 25 & 26 of The Horizon 86 12 1.11 Public hearing for revision of Lots 99, 100 and 101 of The Horizon 86 13 1.13 Public Hearing for revision of Lots 113 & 114, Escondidas de Cypress Springs 87 14 1.10 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on final revision of plat for Lots 25 & 26 of 15 The Horizon 87 1.12 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on final 16 revision of Lots 99, 100 and 101 of The Horizon 88 1.14 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action for 17 final revision of Lots 113 & 114, Vistas Escondidas de Cypress Springs 89 18 1.27 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to appoint Kerr County Sheriff's Department Lt. 19 Bill Hill to AACOG Criminal Justice Advisory Committee, and KPD Capt. Jeffrey Wendling as 20 alternate, effective immediately; notify AACOG of same 90 21 1.28 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to reappoint Kay Mosty Hayes to Kerrville/Kerr 22 County Joint Library Advisory Board to a two- year term ending November 2009 90 23 1.15 Public Hearing for final revision of plat for Lot 17, Privilege Creek Ranch 92 24 1.29 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action to approve contract with Dietert Center and Hill 25 Country Court-Appointed Special Advocates and allow County Judge to sign same 93 4 1 I N D E X (Continued) November 13, 2007 2 PAGE 3 1.30 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action on implementation of the Burn Ban 94 4 1.31 Presentation of audits on the following departments: J.P. 1, J.P. 2, J.P. 3, J.P. 4, 5 District Attorney, County Attorney, Animal Control, and Jail Commissary 95 6 1.32 Consider/discuss, take appropriate action regarding Interlocal Agreement with TAC Risk 7 Management Pool 100 1.19 Receive report from Freese and Nichols on 8 Ingram Dam and Flat Rock Dam evaluation of concrete slab voids 103 9 10 4.1 Pay Bills 133 4.2 Budget Amendments 142 11 4.3 Late Bills --- 4.4 Approve and Accept Monthly Reports 145 12 5.1 Reports from Commissioners/Liaison Committee 13 Assignments 145 14 --- Recessed 158 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 5 1 On Tuesday, November 13, 2007, at 8:00 a.m., a regular 2 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court was held in 3 the Commissioners' Courtroom, Kerr County Courthouse, 4 Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were had in 5 open court: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 (Commissioner Baldwin not present.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me call to order this regular 9 meeting of the Kerr County Commissioners Court posted and 10 scheduled for this time and date, Tuesday, November the 13th, 11 2007, at 8 a.m. It's just a bit past that time now. 12 Commissioner Oehler? 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Let's have a word of prayer, 14 and followed by the pledge of allegiance. 15 (Prayer and pledge of allegiance.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Be seated, please. At 17 this time, if there's any member of the public or the 18 audience that wishes to be heard on any matter that is not a 19 listed agenda item, you're free to come forward at this time 20 and tell us what's on your mind. If you wish to be heard on 21 an agenda item, we'd ask that you fill out a participation 22 form. I think there's probably some at the back of the room. 23 If not, we'll see if we can't get some hustled in here. But 24 if we get to an agenda item, you haven't filled out a 25 participation form and you want to be heard, get my attention 11-13-07 6 1 in some way and I'll see that you're heard. But right now, 2 if anybody wants to be heard on any matter that is not a 3 listed agenda item, why, please come forward at this time. 4 (No response.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Seeing no one coming forward, we 6 will move on. I'm sad to report the passing of our longtime 7 department head of our Court Compliance section, Mr. Brad 8 Alford, after an extensive illness. This past weekend, he 9 passed away, and services for him will be tomorrow at 10:30 10 at the Cowboy Hills Church out off of Peterson Farm Road, I 11 believe it is. There will be a number of folks that -- that 12 will be attending that funeral from the courthouse, I feel 13 certain. While we will not be closed here at the courthouse, 14 we will be minimally staffed, so that if you need -- have a 15 need for some courthouse services, why, please be patient 16 with us because of our courthouse employees paying their 17 respects to Mr. Alford and the members of his family. 18 Commissioner Oehler, do you have -- what do you have for us 19 this morning? 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't have much. We got a 21 lengthy agenda. Only thing, tomorrow is going to be the day 22 we pull the lower plug in the Ingram Lake, and we have two 23 very experienced -- one experienced -- well, two experienced 24 divers. One will be diving and one will be tending for him, 25 and that'll be Pete Blommers, and he will be doing the 11-13-07 7 1 diving. He's 74 years old, and he volunteered to do it. 2 That was one of the things he did for business for years and 3 years. And Mike Hughes is going to tend for him, and he's 4 the owner -- one-time owner and started Oceanarium, one of 5 the largest underwater diving salvage companies in the world. 6 And tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock -- and I forgot to tell 7 you, Len; I haven't seen you till now, but Mr. Blommers will 8 be there and will be ready to do the diving. And -- 9 MR. ODOM: 9 o'clock? 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: 9 o'clock. That's it. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you. Commissioner Williams? 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll save mine till the 13 end, Judge. We got a long day ahead of us. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner Letz? 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Likewise. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move on. The first item on 17 the agenda that's not a timed item is to consider, discuss, 18 and take appropriate action on the request by the 19 H.C.A.D.R.C. to renew a contract with Kerr County to provide 20 mediation services in Kerr County, and for the funding of 21 same. That's Hill Country Alternative Dispute Resolution 22 Center, is what that long acronym stands for. They've been 23 providing mediation services for a number of years. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, I think we skipped 25 1.1 on the bottom of the first page. 11-13-07 8 1 JUDGE TINLEY: That's a timed item at 9 o'clock. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Oh, I'm sorry. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: And since we started at 8:00, that's 4 the reason I skipped over it. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I apologize. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: And since it is plugged in at that 7 time -- even though, probably, had we thought, we would have 8 put those in at 8:00 and 8:10, but we didn't. So -- 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I apologize. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: I advised folks that we're going to 11 stick to this schedule. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: This is the same form as we've 13 had previously, Judge? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Far as I know, yeah. Same format; 15 we just plug in the funding that was anticipated via the 16 budget for -- for the revenue stream that comes from the 17 filing of cases. Is that correct, Mr. County Attorney? 18 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 23 approval of the agenda item. Any question or discussion? 24 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 25 hand. 11-13-07 9 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 5 to the next item; consider, discuss, and take appropriate 6 action on Martin Marietta floodplain permit. Commissioner 7 Williams? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I put this on the agenda, 9 Judge. This has been an issue that's been in front of the 10 Court for some time. Subject to review by the County 11 Attorney, and so any comments the County Attorney might have, 12 or any comments that some of the principals in this matter 13 might have, I think we'll open the floor for that. I know 14 Mr. Happy's here, and Mr. Emerson has a memo in our packet. 15 Mr. Happy also. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He's requested a continuance by 17 his letter. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I know. There's a letter 19 to the Judge, but I think Mr. Happy wants to speak to that 20 issue. And there's a brief by Mr. Happy in the -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Any member of the Court have any 22 comments before we hear from Mr. Happy? Mr. Happy? 23 MR. HAPPY: Thank you, Your Honor. If it please 24 the Court, I'd like to just read my letter into the record. 25 And, in addition, my wife Mary Ann had wanted very much to be 11-13-07 10 1 here for the hearing, but she's having medical treatment in 2 Seattle, and this hearing was scheduled after her treatment 3 had already been set up, so she -- she, unfortunately, can't 4 be here today. This is addressed to Judge Tinley. "Dear 5 Judge Tinley, the Commissioners Court consideration of my 6 appeal of the Kerr County floodplain administrator's grant of 7 a floodplain construction permit is on the court's agenda for 8 today, November 14, 2007. I hereby respectfully request a 9 continuance of this hearing. The reasons for my request are, 10 number one, on May 14, 2007, the Court requested Martin 11 Marietta and me to prepare briefs in support of our 12 positions. I promptly responded on the assumption that 13 Martin Marietta would do the same. However, Martin Marietta 14 took four months to reply and did not provide me with a copy 15 of their brief. I was given a copy of the brief quite 16 recently, and due to family illness, have not had an 17 opportunity to obtain necessary rebuttal evidence for the 18 Court's consideration. I believe that fairness requires I be 19 given a comparable time to gather evidence and respond to 20 Martin Marietta's brief, as they took such a long time to 21 obtain their evidence. Number two, the Court's agenda for 22 today is very crowded, and my presentation will require at 23 least an hour of the Court's time, plus time for Martin 24 Marietta to respond. Such long presentations will be 25 prejudicial to the Court's proper consideration of the other 11-13-07 11 1 matters on the agenda today. I am, however, attaching to 2 this letter a preliminary response to Martin Marietta's brief 3 which summarizes the evidence and legal issues that I intend 4 to present to the Court in support of my appeal. Of course, 5 I will appear at the court session today to personally 6 request this continuance. J. Nelson Happy." 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's one correction to 8 your letter, Mr. Happy, before we move on. You talk about 9 the agenda for today as the 14th. It is the 13th. You may 10 want to change that in the record. 11 MR. HAPPY: All right, I sure will do that. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With the Court's 13 permission, I would move that this be continued until the 14 26th of November at 1:30 p.m. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I see no objection, other -- 16 MR. EMERSON: Can I make one brief comment? 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Yes. 18 MR. EMERSON: In all due respect to Mr. Happy -- 19 and I'm not defending Martin Marietta; I'm not their 20 attorney, but both parties were provided the opportunity to 21 submit a brief. Martin Marietta basically responded to 22 Mr. Happy's brief. Mr. Happy's response that was presented 23 today appears to focus primarily on the issue of mining, 24 which is what his primary concern is, 'cause it's right next 25 to his property. The issue that's before the Court is not 11-13-07 12 1 the mining issue; it is whether or not they can build a road 2 across their property. The engineering design that was 3 presented to the Court shows a no-rise design. And, you 4 know, I still stand by my original recommendation, that it's 5 the Court's ministerial duty, after reviewing the 6 information, to approve the permit. 7 MR. HAPPY: Can I just briefly respond? I strongly 8 disagree with Mr. Emerson. It's not a matter only related to 9 a road, and that's what I address in my brief today. And in 10 addition, I -- I believe the law is very clear that the Court 11 is going to have to consider all the factors before granting 12 any permit to Martin Marietta; that's it's not a ministerial 13 act, it's a judicial act, and the Court needs to have a full 14 opportunity to hear the evidence and hear the law and make a 15 decision based on the law and facts. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Did you make a motion? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I did, for a continuance to 18 November 26th at 1:30 p.m. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll second that. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 21 indicated. Question or discussion? 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I just -- you know, I have a 23 hard time -- I mean, I understand Mr. Happy's situation, but 24 this Court, I believe, must be fair to all parties, and if -- 25 it's kind of like approving a subdivision plat. Whether it's 11-13-07 13 1 contested or not, if they've met all the criteria, then I 2 don't see that we have the right to hold up an approval. 3 That's just -- that, to me, is just common sense. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't disagree with that, but 5 I'm -- I'm really leaning more on the second part of his -- 6 second paragraph about our agenda today and trying to get 7 through this. I think it's more efficient from our 8 standpoint to do it in 10 days, and I don't think that's 9 going to probably likely cause any hardship on Martin 10 Marietta. If they were here and -- you know, if they had to 11 have it today, I'd probably go along and say do it today. 12 But, you know, I tend to agree with you. I don't -- you 13 know, unless something earth-shattering happens, which I 14 don't expect, based on what the County Attorney said, I think 15 this is going to get approved. But -- you know, but my 16 reason is not related to that; it's more from a timing 17 standpoint. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I don't think two weeks is 19 any big impediment to -- to disposition of the issue, and I 20 think Mr. Happy, as well as Martin Marietta, deserves the 21 full opportunity to be heard. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or -- or 23 comments? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 24 your right hand. 25 (Commissioners Williams and Letz voted in favor of the motion.) 11-13-07 14 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed? 2 (Commissioner Oehler voted against the motion.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: See you on the 26th at 5 1:30 p.m. 6 MR. HAPPY: Thank you. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll move to Item 5; consider, 8 discuss -- well, I don't see Ms. Hyde or Mr. Stanton here. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: One question. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I advised the gentleman on 12 1.1 that we were moving up to 8 o'clock, and if there's not a 13 timed item, can we get his issue out of the way? 14 JUDGE TINLEY: I have -- I have no objection to it, 15 other than the fact that we've got it posted for 9 a.m. Is 16 there a problem with that? 17 MR. EMERSON: There is if you violate the posting. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, that -- that's my concern. 19 Even though we -- even though we changed to 8:00 at the last 20 minute, we didn't go back and change these others. So -- 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Leo, my apologies. 22 MR. BOUDREAUX: No problem. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: We got to go with what we posted. 24 I'm sorry. 25 MR. BOUDREAUX: No problem. 11-13-07 15 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's go to Item 16; consider, 2 discuss, and take appropriate action to approve, number one, 3 order to vacate, close, and abandon the old portion of Upper 4 Turtle Creek Road; two, execution of road dedication deed for 5 new portion; and three, authorizing the Judge to sign both 6 documents; and four, Road and Bridge to open the new roadway 7 to traffic and close the old portion, that road being located 8 in Precinct 1. Mr. Odom? 9 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. I'm -- 10 JUDGE TINLEY: We got to you quicker than what you 11 expected, obviously. 12 MR. ODOM: What I expected. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This has been ongoing for 14 quite a while, from what I understand. Several years. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: At least. 16 MR. ODOM: That's before I -- yeah. 2004, if 17 memory serves me right. That was -- Franklin was here. We 18 posted the road October the 22nd, 2007, as well as here in 19 the courthouse telling the public we would open the road 20 today, November the 13th, 2007. Now we need to approve the 21 following: Approval of the Order Vacating, Closing, and 22 Abandoning Portion of Old Road, and have Judge sign same; 23 return the completed documents to the Jons law firm, and for 24 them to complete the road dedication deed; approval for the 25 Judge to sign the road dedication deed once it is complete, 11-13-07 16 1 and allow Road and Bridge to open the new road and close the 2 old road today as posted. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All documents have been 4 approved by the County Attorney? 5 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So moved. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second -- third. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 10 approval of the agenda item as indicated. Any question or 11 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 12 your right hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Let's move 17 to Item 17; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 18 for concept of Longbow Subdivision located in Precinct 2. 19 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Mr. Williams purchased this 20 property by metes and bounds as a 10-acre tract with the 21 intention of dividing it with his friend, Mr. Long. When the 22 survey was done, they found the property was 9.95 acres, 23 including the road right-of-way of Willow Bend Drive. 24 There's an existing home well and septic on Lot 1. There are 25 no improvements on Lot 2. At this time, we ask for a 11-13-07 17 1 variance for lot size -- for lot size for Lot 1 for 2 4.94 acres, making Lot 2 5.01 acres, and we ask that you 3 allow this subdivision be done under the alternate plat 4 process. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Let the record reflect the 6 Mr. Williams he's talking about is not Commissioner Williams. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Just -- 8 MR. ODOM: You would have to recuse yourself if it 9 was. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The only -- 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't want to confuse things 13 and complicate things, but our -- depending -- this is a 14 concept plan. Depending on when they get this to the Court 15 will have a great impact. 16 MS. HARDIN: They've asked to do it next week 17 before you do the -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Before we do the hearing? 19 Okay, 'cause this will not be allowed after our revisions. 20 MR. ODOM: Okay. And the reason we're looking at 21 this is because the house has the well and septic and all 22 like that, and we were wanting the new lot to be up to code. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Doesn't make any difference. 24 I'm just saying after our rules, this will not be allowed. 25 MR. ODOM: No variances? 11-13-07 18 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No variances will be allowed on 2 anything like this in the future for any reason. Which, you 3 know, it's just that -- if we can get it done before, I have 4 no problem with it. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is the plan to bring it 6 back before -- 7 MS. HARDIN: Yes. 8 MR. ODOM: Yes. We wanted to present it to the 9 Court and see how you felt about it, and -- and come back. 10 MS. HARDIN: Surveyor told him he could have it 11 done by the next court date. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: These are both individual 14 wells? 15 MR. ODOM: Yes. That's the reason Lot 2 was going 16 to be over 5 acres. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, this is a concept 18 only, so it doesn't require court action. 19 MR. ODOM: Doesn't require -- other than your 20 comments, is what we were looking for, so this surveyor could 21 finish it up. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think Commissioner Letz 23 summed up the comments. 24 MR. ODOM: Okay, sir. We know what to tell 25 Mr. Williams. 11-13-07 19 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Better hurry. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Better hurry. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Time is of the essence. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything further on that 5 particular agenda item, gentlemen? If not, we'll move to 6 Item 18; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 7 release Letter of Credit Number 25399-S for Live Springs 8 Ranch. 9 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. Live Springs Ranch has been 10 completed, and in your packet you'll find a letter of final 11 inspection from Wayne Wells. At this time, we ask that you 12 allow us to release Letter of Credit Number 25399-S to Frost 13 national Bank, re: Live Springs Ranch, contingent upon 14 receiving payment for the last invoice of $323.62 from Wayne 15 Wells for engineering fees. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That is really a finely built 17 subdivision. 18 MR. ODOM: It's a good subdivision. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Very, very -- the roads and 20 all -- I went through it the other day, and it is really, 21 really fine. I mean, that is -- that's going to be privately 22 maintained? 23 MR. ODOM: That will be privately maintained. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wow. If we get everybody to 25 do like that, we wouldn't have any problem with any roads. 11-13-07 20 1 I'll tell you, they really did a fine job. I'll move for 2 approval. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 5 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 6 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 7 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 8 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 9 (No response.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 11 to Item 20; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on 12 draft of Kerr County Subdivision Rules and Regulations. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, really, all I want to do 14 today is just -- and I went through it very briefly -- is to 15 kind of make sure the Court is aware of the impact of our 16 changes, and our biggest part of the change is that the 17 exemptions -- all of the exemptions that are allowed 18 currently under, I think, Section 1.08, none of those will be 19 allowed any more for tracts that are 5 acres or smaller, and 20 no variances will be allowed for those smaller tracts. 21 That's the biggest area. The other -- well, it's -- I'll say 22 it's one of the other. The other biggest -- or really big 23 area is that all subdivisions where there's any lots 5 acres 24 or less will have to do a full water availability analysis 25 under Chapter 230 of the -- not Government Code. 11-13-07 21 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Water Code? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, it's the administrative -- 3 TAC, Texas Administrative Code. And there will be no 4 allowance for, like, this lot right here. They'd have to do 5 a water availability study to do the one we just looked at, 6 regardless of size. 7 MR. ODOM: May I -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 9 MR. ODOM: What about the exceptions under 1.03? 10 How do you work that in? Because there is nothing in 11 guidance of the size of that lot. If it's -- 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's 1.03 say? 13 MR. ODOM: Well, it has A through H, 10 acres or 14 more -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If you're over that acreage 16 size, those apply. If you're under, none of them apply. 17 This trumps that whole section. 18 MR. ODOM: So, in other words, if it's less than 10 19 acres -- 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Less than 5 acres. 21 MR. ODOM: Less than 5 acres. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, 5 acres or less. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: 5 acres or less. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 5 acres or less, that there 25 will be no exemption. 11-13-07 22 1 MR. ODOM: Even under 1.03? 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Under anything. 3 MS. HARDIN: Can we change the rule and -- I mean, 4 change the 1.03 to read that? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, we can put a -- yeah, we 6 can put another paragraph in there, "This only applies to," 7 you know, "the acreage limits." We didn't make some of those 8 changes until it's approved by the Court, because it makes -- 9 that will require a lot of changes in our rules to try to put 10 people on notice a little bit more. That can be done, but 11 once the -- once the rules are adopted after the public 12 hearing, if they are adopted, then we can modify it in the 13 verbiage a little bit. We just can't change the content. 14 So, yes, we can put that language in there, but we're not 15 going to -- I don't want to rewrite the whole rules until we 16 get the public hearing. Does that make sense? 17 MS. HARDIN: Mm-hmm. 18 MR. ODOM: Yeah. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Emerson? 20 MR. EMERSON: Just to make it clear for the public, 21 Jonathan, will you explain why we've had to add this section 22 into our rules? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: The -- we are -- a couple of 24 things happened, but the main reason right now is that we are 25 applying for an EDAP grant, and -- through the Water 11-13-07 23 1 Development Board, and to qualify for that grant, the County 2 has to adopt model rules that were administratively approved 3 by the Water Development Board, and they're called the model 4 subdivision rules for the state of Texas. Those rules were 5 originally put forward to address issues in the border 6 counties and colonias, but they expanded the scope of EDAP 7 and other parts of the Subdivision Rules, Chapter 232 8 overall, and didn't change it, so if you're going to go for 9 EDAP funds, wherever you are in the state, you have to adopt 10 the model rules, and there is no variance allowed at this 11 time. We're working with -- or talking to Water Development 12 Board legal staff, and there may be some modifications in the 13 future, but for the time being, there will be -- their rules 14 will have no variance allowed to them, and they only address 15 subdivisions that are 5 acres or less. And there will be a 16 slight change on this. Our current rules say less than 17 5 acres and 5 acres or greater. If you're 5 acres exactly, 18 you're going to be in the new category, not the old category. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the reason why they 20 insist on the model rules for EDAP funding is because of the 21 bitter experiences down in the counties where they gave money 22 to correct bad situations, only to find later that counties 23 didn't do anything clean up their act, and the same things 24 repeated themselves in terms of no infrastructure, bad 25 infrastructure or whatever. And so they said, well, one way 11-13-07 24 1 around that is to put model subdivision rules in as a 2 condition of EDAP funding. And that's where we are. 3 Currently, we have an application pending for $385,000 for 4 the next phase, and if we're granted that phase and get that 5 completed, then we'll be going back for construction 6 consideration. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: My overall feeling is the 8 changes are good for the most part. I don't -- I'm not real 9 happy with the water availability part of it; I think that's 10 a little bit unreasonable on small lots -- or small number of 11 lots in a subdivision. But the other part of it -- most of 12 it addresses wastewater issues, and I think that -- I think 13 they're very good, and also water systems. You know, there's 14 no longer going to be any shared well situations on small 15 lots. Those are out. We've got to have a licensed system 16 now, so it's going to make a lot of the things that we've 17 done in the past no longer possible. But, you know, a lot of 18 them are not necessarily bad. But, anyway, that's really -- 19 and, anyway, 5.09 is the section that I've added with all the 20 changes. You can read that one section and pretty much get 21 the gist of the changes that I've made to our rules. The 22 other change that I did include into it is under Fire Safety, 23 there's some new legislation that allowed us to require 24 subdivisions to put in storage tanks for fire suppression, 25 and I included that in there. 11-13-07 25 1 (Commissioner Baldwin entered the courtroom.) 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Morning. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Morning. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: With a -- if it's 50 lots or 5 less, I think they have to put in a 2,500-gallon storage 6 tank. If it's a total of 50 lots or more, it's a 7 5,000-gallon storage tank, and just a dry hydrant, not any 8 water system. But it does give some fire suppression 9 ability, and that is a new requirement. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What section is the fire 11 safety? Is that 5.09? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No. I may not be able to tell 13 you that right now. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It's -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It's not there. I can't -- 16 it's in here, I know. It's just whatever -- 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I'll take your word for it. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll look for it and let you 19 know. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further on that particular 21 agenda item? We'll move on to Item 21, unless you see the 22 need to have the Sheriff here for that, the jail. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Fine. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Item 21; consider, discuss, and take 25 appropriate action on determining procedure to review various 11-13-07 26 1 options to solve long-term jail overcrowding problems and 2 other issues related to the Kerr County Jail. Commissioner 3 Letz. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I put this on at the -- 5 after visiting with the Sheriff about it, and he has asked 6 that we look at forming a committee to look at these 7 long-term issues, including -- and he's very agreeable to 8 this looking at housing prisoners in tents, expanding the 9 trustee program. He wants it to be a very -- you know, 10 looking at the judicial side to see if we can get people 11 moved through more quickly. You know, it's not just to look 12 at expanding the jail; it's looking at anything that we can 13 do to keep from expanding the jail, but it may well include 14 looking at that as well. It's also looking at a little bit 15 of the infrastructure, and the current jail is now 16 approaching 15 years old. Looking at the new -- you know, if 17 we -- whatever we do, how we would address some of those 18 things. Like, if you did add some, I guess, more minimal 19 security-type area, what's that do to the cafeteria-type 20 stuff and the clinic and some of those issues? So, it's kind 21 of far-reaching. I just put it on the agenda right now to 22 see if the Court, you know, wants to pursue it. If they do, 23 I think I'll put it on the next agenda with an actual written 24 charge that the Sheriff and I will get together and write, 25 and as to what they will look at. In the meantime, everyone 11-13-07 27 1 may think of -- I don't know; maybe each Commissioner can put 2 a person on it, or maybe the Court can put two people. I 3 don't think you want a real large committee. Probably five 4 people total and the Sheriff, you know, something like that. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I agree, it's something we 6 need to be looking at, because we're going to be facing that 7 issue. It's -- we seem to have gotten somewhat at a static 8 level out there on jail population in areas where we could 9 release prisoners on bond, those that were bondable. But it 10 seems like we've kind of got us a static population, so it's 11 -- it's bumping the limit, so that's what we need to be 12 considering. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll put it back on the next 14 agenda, try to write up an actual charge, and maybe each 15 person can put one person on the committee. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Good idea. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Let's go to Item 23; 18 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to receive and 19 approve bids for RFQ for planning services at the Hill 20 Country Youth Exhibit Center, review recommendations from 21 review committee, and award the contract for planning 22 services. Commissioner Letz? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I wasn't sure if we could -- 24 Ms. Hargis wasn't sure if we could open these prior to being 25 here today or not, so we didn't. So, our first part of the 11-13-07 28 1 agenda item is to open the bids. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And announce what we received, 4 and then the committee -- basically, Commissioner Oehler and 5 myself -- will go back and look at them and come back with a 6 recommendation. Since I suspect we'll be meeting again 7 tomorrow, we can recess this item till tomorrow, and I think 8 we probably have to time to take a look at them. We received 9 two. One is from Peter Lewis Architects, and the other 10 one -- Mr. Lewis wasn't so concerned about it; he didn't have 11 his sealed, so pretty easy to look at what he submitted. The 12 other one, I guess, isn't sealed either, but we didn't -- I 13 didn't open the box. I don't know if anyone did or not. 14 This is from -- you can read it; I can't. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The second is from Ray and 16 Hollington Architects out of Houston, Texas. For purposes of 17 -- looks like the -- there's a schedule of services in the 18 Peter W. Lewis Architects and Associates proposal, and that 19 carries with it a schedule of fees totaling $23,400. The Ray 20 Hollington is a lengthy proposal, and I'm trying to see if 21 we've got a definitive schedule of proposed services. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A lot of pictures. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. It's -- like I say, it's -- I 24 don't quickly see the -- they describe their process for 25 review and planning, but I don't see any schedule of fees 11-13-07 29 1 offhand. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Looks -- 3 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll let the committee work on that. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I move we accept 5 those two bids and refer them to the review committee. And I 6 assume that you're going to come back during this cycle -- 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Today or tomorrow, I would 8 suspect. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Your earliest convenience, 10 whatever. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second as 13 indicated. Further question or discussion on the motion? 14 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 15 hand. 16 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you want this one back 21 from Peter Lewis? 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. Let's go back to Item 5; 23 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to approve 24 creation of a new position at Juvenile Detention Facility, 25 and the options of filling that vacant position if a new 11-13-07 30 1 position is created. Mr. Stanton and Ms. Hyde, we deferred 2 this until your arrival. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Stanton? 5 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. Thank you. We're 6 requesting the ability to -- or we're asking the Court to let 7 us create a position of an Assistant Facility Administrator 8 out at the juvenile facility, and outlined in the -- in the 9 letter that you're reading at the current moment would be 10 some of the job duties performed by that person. It would 11 also -- we could do it in the current budget that we 12 currently have, with being able to move some line items 13 around, and it wouldn't -- it would not cost any more to 14 create this position. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It wouldn't cost any more -- 16 what, now? Say that again. 17 MR. STANTON: It wouldn't cost -- creating this 18 position would not cost -- it would not change our bottom 19 line of our budget. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What -- I guess, what's the 22 reason for it? And also, I guess -- I guess I'm a little -- 23 not inclined to start a new position right after we just went 24 through budget and did all this in the rest of the county. 25 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 11-13-07 31 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess, why are we looking at 2 it now and why do we need it? 3 MR. STANTON: Well, with the Texas Youth 4 Commission -- with everything that is going on with T.Y.C., 5 and I've -- you've had a chance to read the paper and know 6 what all's going on, T.J.P.C. is -- is kind of retreating and 7 covering their flank, I guess, so that the state doesn't -- 8 or the government -- federal -- I guess, federal doesn't come 9 in and kind of blindside them, such as what's happening with 10 T.Y.C. So, T.J.P.C. is coming in with more regulations, more 11 rules, and more standards that we're having to follow, and 12 it's just getting to the point that -- as Ms. Hyde was saying 13 this morning, it's a situation where, at any given time -- 14 I'm kind of surprised my phone hasn't rang yet here. On 15 weekends, I get an average of 20 to 25 phone calls a weekend, 16 and it would just be nice to be able to have someone that 17 could assist in preparing a -- (Cell phone rang.) It's not 18 mine. Preparing a lot of the -- a lot of stuff. We're 19 having to -- we just -- we just -- we're having to create -- 20 we just got a new facility nurse. T.J.P.C. has set out 21 standards where we have to have a health service coordinator 22 and health service authority. We are -- they're creating new 23 grievance procedures where we have to allow the juveniles to 24 have access to -- direct access to telephones and computers 25 to file grievances for abuse and neglect and different items 11-13-07 32 1 like that. And it's just -- the paperwork is kind of 2 overwhelming, to be honest with you. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mr. Stanton, you have no 4 assistant now; is that correct? 5 MR. STANTON: No. No, sir, I don't. 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What happens when you take 7 a vacation? Who's responsible for the facility in your 8 absence? 9 MS. HYDE: He is. 10 MR. STANTON: I am. T.J.P.C. standards state that 11 I have to appoint or set somebody up as -- as the acting 12 director when I leave, and the way that it's been done for 13 the past year, year and a half, is that whoever the acting 14 shift supervisor is on duty assumes those duties when I'm out 15 of town. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that individual would 17 have the same responsibilities and authority that you 18 currently have, in your absence? 19 MR. STANTON: In my absence, yes, sir. If they're 20 not able to get ahold of me, yes, sir. 21 MS. HYDE: And that leads to, I'm sure, your next 22 question. The problem is, it could be any one of four to six 23 to eight, because your shift supervisors also take vacations, 24 and also need coverage. The problem is, no one has been 25 trained in the duties and responsibilities that Kevin is 11-13-07 33 1 responsible for, so it's kind of, you know, a lick and a 2 promise is where we've been. With T.J.P.C.'s increased -- 3 new training, new regulations, new procedures, new policies, 4 Mr. Stanton cannot do it by himself. It's just -- it's not 5 there any more. And, unfortunately, with this last audit, I 6 think a lot of that came to light, and what's coming down the 7 pike. There's more coming down the pike. So, he's stretched 8 as it is, but with this increase, it's going to get worse. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: So, I would take it, then, 10 from your comments that you are recommending this change? 11 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on your review of the 13 Juvenile Detention Facility and the -- and the supervision 14 structure? 15 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. And that way, we can have one 16 second -- one assistant, one second to Kevin that can go to 17 the training, be completely trained, so that if there's -- if 18 there's a case where Kevin actually takes a week's vacation, 19 there can be someone that steps in and actually does the job, 20 where Kevin can have, you know, five consecutive days off 21 without dealing with these problems, which he does. The only 22 time that I know of in the last year that he's taken time off 23 was a short vacation, and the only reason why no one could 24 call him was he was out of the country, literally. But when 25 he came back, his cell phone was blown up. 11-13-07 34 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Based on this lack of training, 2 because of the position not existing, am I to understand that 3 when he's not available, he's trying to take some time off, 4 he's designated, say, a shift supervisor to be acting 5 administrator, if there is a problem, the procedure is, when 6 the problem is laid in the lap of the -- of the shift 7 supervisor who's the acting administrator, the first thing 8 that individual does is call Mr. Stanton, wherever he may be? 9 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir, it is. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Vacation or otherwise. 11 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, you convinced me on that 14 part. Now, where's the money coming from? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's what I want to 16 get back to. Where is the money coming from? Because you're 17 pointing out a couple alternatives here in terms of -- 18 MR. STANTON: Well, that's -- the alternatives are, 19 if we fill the position, that the person -- that would be the 20 promotion. If we -- because of what the Court did prior to 21 this budget year, created an extra position out at the 22 facility to use as the coverage person for the vacations and 23 holidays, there is an extra person out there that -- that we 24 could move into the slot of whoever took the assistant 25 position -- assistant administrator position. So, that way 11-13-07 35 1 it would only -- there's only a difference in the salaries of 2 about $2,000. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That would eliminate that other 4 position? 5 MR. STANTON: We could either eliminate it -- 6 MS. HYDE: And come back later and request that 7 other position if we feel that we need it. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: By eliminating it, are 9 we -- then do we then have a problem with respect to our 10 ratio of J.D.O.'s to -- 11 MR. STANTON: No, sir. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- occupants? 13 MR. STANTON: No, sir. No, sir, we'll never have 14 that problem, because the most we can hold is up to 25 kids. 15 And I have gone about in the last year certifying all of my 16 control room operators as J.D.O.'s, so we always have at 17 least three people on duty, so we're -- we're good up to 24 18 kids. And so -- and luckily, we've only got up to -- well, 19 lucky or unlucky, we haven't got up to that number but twice. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So we're relatively revenue- or 21 expenditure-neutral, as long as we don't come back and hire 22 -- fill the position that we're eliminating. So, it's -- so 23 we're really not -- we may not be expenditure-neutral. 24 MS. HYDE: May not. 25 MR. STANTON: We can -- honestly, I mean, it would 11-13-07 36 1 be -- it would be -- 2 MS. HYDE: But at this point, we still have $15,000 3 in for a part-time position, so we could take -- use that 15 4 for a permanent part-time position. So, then you've got your 5 assistant that can help cover as well as that permanent 6 part-time position that can help cover, and that way it would 7 still be neutral. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I assume the person that 9 you're talking about to fill this spot is already on staff? 10 MS. HYDE: As a part-time. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And that individual's 12 salary is what grade right now? 13 MS. HYDE: 14. 14 MR. STANTON: No, sir -- are you talking about who 15 would assume this position? The facility -- 16 MS. HYDE: Oh, my bad. I'm sorry. 17 MR. STANTON: Currently, he's an 18-5. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: He's an 18-5, and you'd be 19 moving that person to a 20? 20 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Is that correct? 22 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And the difference between 24 the 18-5 and the 20 is the $2,000 you reference here? 25 MR. STANTON: Roughly, with FICA and insurance. 11-13-07 37 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Now, his leaving his former 2 position then creates a vacuum? That's a question. 3 MR. STANTON: Well, that's where we would have to 4 move some internal people around and put somebody to assume 5 his positions that he currently -- or that person currently 6 holds. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And then that gets back to 8 Ms. Hyde's explanation that there was a full person or a 9 portion of a person built into the budget? 10 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 12 MR. STANTON: Yeah, we've currently got $15,000 in 13 part-time and $10,000 in overtime still in our budget that 14 hasn't been touched. 15 MS. HYDE: We don't want to touch the overtime, but 16 we could touch the $15,000 and make a part -- permanent 17 part-time position. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So I'm a little confused now as 20 to what you're asking us to do. You want us to create the 21 new position, and we're canceling a position? The one 22 that -- floating position you mentioned earlier is being done 23 away with? What's that -- 24 MS. HYDE: Make it a part-time -- make it -- let us 25 hire a part-time permanent employee. 11-13-07 38 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Which you have budgeted 2 already? 3 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And you'll take 2,000 -- where 5 is the other 2,000 coming from? From that line item? 6 MS. HYDE: We'll probably take it out of the -- 7 when we talked to Ms. Hargis, there's several different 8 places that we could take it out of. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 11 MR. STANTON: And, basically, nothing would -- we'd 12 be the same staffing, same ratio, same everything as last 13 year, except now we have an assistant facility administrator. 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I would move approval of 15 the request to create a new position. As Assistant Facility 16 Administrator; is that correct? 17 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And at assigned Grade 20. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And eliminating the -- which 20 position are we eliminating? 21 MR. STANTON: It was a vacation J.D.O. -- vacation 22 coverage J.D.O. is what it basically is. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That was what level? 24 MR. STANTON: That was at a -- well, the person 25 that's doing that right now was at a 16-5. 11-13-07 39 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And eliminate -- it's a 2 floating position, right? 3 MS. HYDE: Yes, sir. 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And continue that position, 5 and eliminating the floating position of a J.D.O. I guess 6 that covers it. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded as 9 indicated. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And -- 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Question or discussion? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And there will be -- 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Only thing I'd like to say is 14 that I believe this next time -- you know, next budget year, 15 if you're going to do this, you really ought to think about 16 it in advance. Just having approved a budget, this is not 17 something that I'm real fond of doing after -- in the middle 18 of a budget year. 19 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. I apologize for that. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And the only reason -- I agree 21 with Commissioner Oehler, as I stated earlier, but the only 22 reason I'd even go along with it is because I'm hearing that 23 there are new rules coming down that you didn't know about 24 during the budget preparation, that are changing. 25 MR. STANTON: One of the really neat -- not neat 11-13-07 40 1 things; one of the really -- things that's going to kind of 2 really affect a lot of the detention facilities out there is 3 that T.J.P.C. is no longer doing announced visits; they're 4 going to knock on your door at 3 o'clock in the morning and 5 say, "Hi, we're here to do an audit." And -- which is good. 6 I'm glad that they're changing. It's just the fact that 7 it'll -- it will help identify some of the problems. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I support this, but like I 9 say, there should be some warning. If not -- well, I guess 10 we may have to do it again, but I'm -- I really prefer that 11 to be done at budget time. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You'll bring a budget amendment 13 at our next meeting to figure out how to get the funds moved 14 around? 15 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or discussion on 17 the motion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 18 your right hand. 19 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 20 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 21 (No response.) 22 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. We'll move 23 to Item 6; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on 24 approving a contract between Kerr County Juvenile Detention 25 Facility and Dr. Chris Meriwether to act as the facility's 11-13-07 41 1 health director. I believe you've looked at the agreement, 2 have you not, Mr. Emerson? 3 MR. EMERSON: Yes, sir. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: I think you actually drafted it, 5 didn't you? 6 MR. EMERSON: What we actually did was we took the 7 physician health services agreement that was with the jail 8 and removed some paragraphs and added a couple paragraphs to 9 make it fit the Juvenile Detention Facility. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I certainly move for 12 approval, because -- a number of things. Dr. Meriwether's 13 been a good servant to not only this community, but this 14 facility for some time now, and if he's willing to continue 15 his services, I'm certainly willing to continue with him. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 18 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? The -- 19 having a -- having the health director by contract also 20 prevents us, at least in a lot of cases, from having to carry 21 some of the these kids to the emergency room, which has an 22 economic benefit, because the nursing staff will be able to 23 contact Dr. Meriwether directly, so that's an additional 24 benefit. Further question or discussion? All in favor of 25 the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11-13-07 42 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 2 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion does carry. Item 7; 5 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to advertise 6 for bids for digital video recording system for the Juvenile 7 Detention Facility. Mr. Stanton? 8 MR. STANTON: This was in the capital outlay item 9 budgets that were -- were done in the previous budget year. 10 And what -- at this point, what we're doing is requesting the 11 ability to go out for bids for those services that have 12 previously been budgeted. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This would be a replacement 14 for the entire system; is that correct? 15 MR. STANTON: It would be a replacement for the 16 entire recording system. We're only replacing four -- five 17 cameras, but we'll be using -- we'll be utilizing the other 18 24 cameras that are out there. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Are the other 24 cameras digital? 20 MR. STANTON: They're compatible, yes, sir. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What are you going to do with 25 the cameras that are no longer in use? Or are there going to 11-13-07 43 1 be some you're not going to use? 2 MR. STANTON: Yes, sir, there's going to be five 3 that we're going to be replacing. And two of them, we're 4 replacing because we're going to be able to use audio and 5 video in the control room, and also in the intake area, which 6 T.J.P.C. is requesting that we have audio as well as video 7 now. So, we will have five -- approximately five cameras 8 that are still working, that -- but we're having to replace. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: What do you plan to do with those 10 cameras? 11 MR. STANTON: We were planning on just keeping them 12 as spares in case something went out; we'd have those to 13 replace the ones that -- the existing cameras. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You have any other needs for 15 them? 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I think we could 17 probably discuss some of the needs as we go on, maybe even 18 for the courthouse, for security. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Are they digital cameras or 20 are they analog cameras? 21 MR. STANTON: I believe the ones that are out there 22 right now are analog, but from talking to the -- the 23 gentleman that's helped us, or come out and looked at them, 24 they're compatible, both digital and audio, both ways. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll keep that in mind. 11-13-07 44 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I move approval of the 2 request to advertise for bids for a digital video recording 3 system for the Juvenile Detention Facility. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Second. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 6 approval of the agenda item. Questions or discussion? All 7 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Thank you, 12 Mr. Stanton. 13 MR. STANTON: Thank y'all. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to Item 22; consider, 15 discuss, and authorize Sheriff to dispose of three county 16 vehicles. 17 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: These are just three of the 18 very old ones that we've had that aren't worth very much. 19 One of them's a '96 Chevrolet pickup. The air conditioning, 20 heating core, everything else is out on it. It's one we 21 absorbed from the task force when the task force was 22 dissolved. It's just been in storage. The other one, I 23 believe even a year -- about a year ago, I already got 24 permission to get rid of it; we just hadn't done it yet, and 25 that's that old, red D.A.R.E. Camaro that we used to have 11-13-07 45 1 before we purchased that other. And the last one is a '93 2 Chevrolet Caprice that was kind of -- the blue one the former 3 Sheriff drove for a while, and former chief deputy drove for 4 a while, that they're just junk. And since I had two of the 5 C.I.D. cars that were totaled out the last few months, we're 6 trying to group all these up and see if what we're getting 7 off insurance on those two cars, if we can take these three 8 also and trade in to get at least another C.I.D. car. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: What -- what method of disposal? Do 10 we declare them surplus? 11 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Declare them as surplus. Then 12 at that point, I can -- like, Ken Stoepel or any of those can 13 come in and look at them as a trade-in. If we want to get 14 rid of them any other way, I have to do it over a -- you 15 know, the last few years, we always did. Any other way, you 16 have to do it in sealed, but if you're just trading them, you 17 can trade them. Any other way, you have to bid them. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think surplus, go out for 19 bid. 20 MR. EMERSON: You have to put them out for bid, 21 Rusty. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We don't want to do them 23 surplus. 24 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Well, just -- that's the way 25 they've always gotten rid of them, is just trade them. 11-13-07 46 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You can trade them -- you can't 2 trade them, you don't think? 3 MR. EMERSON: Let me look into that to make sure 4 before you do it. 5 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You might not want to declare 6 them surplus if you're going to trade them. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: You don't want to do them 8 surplus, I'm pretty certain, unless you're going to do some 9 sort of a bid or auction for them. I think you ought to be 10 able to trade them in, as long as you get fair market value 11 for them. No, you don't think so? 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Surely not, if we declare 13 them surplus. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: These are not seized vehicles; 15 these were actually County-owned vehicles. Seized ones are 16 different. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Come back in two weeks. 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: No problem. 19 MR. EMERSON: The statute's very specific on how 20 you have to dispose of surplus property, and I don't have it 21 in front of me to make sure, so -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Look at it and see. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If it's not surplus, then 24 it's probably a different way to do it, but -- 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Any further action on that item, 11-13-07 47 1 gentlemen? Let's move to Item 24; consider, discuss, and 2 take appropriate action on Commissioner Letz' providing 3 opinions to Road and Bridge Department concerning subdivision 4 platting requirements. That's an interesting item. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I put it on the agenda -- 6 I frequently get calls from Truby and Len about an 7 interpretation of Subdivision Rules. And I usually -- I 8 usually give it to them pretty freely, but this last time, 9 Truby asked me to give it to them in writing. And I think 10 it's a good idea; I agree with that, but after I gave it to 11 them in writing, I started thinking about it, that I'm not 12 sure I'm authorized to give opinions in writing to Road and 13 Bridge on subdivision rules and interpretation. So, I just 14 put on it the agenda just to kind of get it before the Court 15 and let them know. And, I mean, it's not -- you know, what I 16 have done in the past is given my opinion. It's just that; 17 it's my opinion, and sometimes Len agrees, sometimes Len 18 disagrees. Sometimes, you know, it comes to the Court. You 19 know, anyway, so it's on the agenda to see if I should 20 continue that practice or not. Len? 21 MR. ODOM: Yeah. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you wish to be insulated from 23 that practice, Commissioner? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I just -- I'm just -- you 25 know, I'm covering bases. 11-13-07 48 1 MR. ODOM: I apologize. Normally I'm there and can 2 make that decision. If I have a question, then I will ask 3 for interpretation there, or, "Have you done this before?" 4 Sometimes I don't. In that case, I was down in San Antonio, 5 and Truby needed an answer from O.S.S.F. I agree with one 6 statement that you made; the other part I disagree, because I 7 got more information from Brandenberg, and I think they're 8 two unique situations, and the Court can make that decision. 9 We don't have a problem, and I don't think that you're 10 stepping over on the statutes at all. That is an opinion, 11 and it is something that is in the best interests of the -- 12 your constituents. And in the interpretation of this, it's 13 judgmental. Ministerial duties, and then it's judgmental 14 because of the circumstances. So, therefore, I do agree with 15 you on the law down there in -- because -- because the Court 16 had directed us previously. Mr. Henneke -- Judge Henneke had 17 directed Frank to do -- where you have an easement created 18 for financial reasons. That's the reason that was created, 19 was on financial reasons down there. And then there was -- 20 the family divided it on 1.03, so I agree there. The other 21 one was that I found an easement -- a road easement created 22 in 1995. Brandenberg didn't get back with you. So, I say 23 that that's exempt prior to December of 2000, so, therefore, 24 that that would go forward. But O.S.S.F. had to have a 25 decision -- they needed to do it, because some people had 11-13-07 49 1 some septic systems, and that was the reason you were called, 2 and I apologize. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think -- this is not 4 about those two issues. This is a general issue. 5 MR. ODOM: General issue. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We frequently talk, either you 7 and I or Truby and I, about interpretation of rules, and I 8 think that's a little bit of a gray area. Not sure how much 9 latitude I really have on interpreting rules. Obviously, I 10 mean, I tend to -- I wrote the rules for the most part, or 11 authored them, anyway, and they're approved by the Court, so 12 I know a little bit of the -- I guess the detail of them, 13 maybe more than some of the other Commissioners. But I just 14 wanted to -- you know, if I'm going to be doing that, I want 15 the Court to know I'm doing it, and I want them to agree that 16 it's okay for me to do it. And I also want the County 17 Attorney to pretty much say that's okay too, because when it 18 comes to a legal opinion of them, he's the final -- 19 interpreting our rules, he's our final guru. And I think, 20 generally, when we -- Len and I have a disagreement, usually 21 it comes before the Court or goes to Rex then. But it's just 22 a -- if I'm going to be doing it, which I have no problem 23 doing it; I just want the Court to be aware of it. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, knowing you so well, 25 Jon, and how difficult it is to get an opinion out of you, I 11-13-07 50 1 would -- I'd like to see you continue giving your verbal 2 opinions to them. Keep the thing running, keep it moving. 3 But when it comes to writing, I don't think I would 4 participate in that. I certainly would get the County 5 Attorney to do that, though. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: That's my opinion. As you said, 7 Commissioner, sometimes you and Leonard agree; sometimes you 8 disagree. We've seen -- we've seen demonstration of that 9 today. I don't suppose there's anything wrong with anybody 10 on this Court or anybody else having an opinion about 11 anything, but if it comes down to what's binding on the Court 12 and Kerr County, the ultimate authority is going to be the 13 County Attorney, because that's -- that's whose opinion we 14 legally rely upon and must rely upon. But insofar as any 15 member of the Court or anybody else verbally, in writing, or 16 otherwise expressing an opinion on an interpretation, 17 certainly, you know, we're privileged to do that. But the 18 binding effect of it is somewhat questionable, I would think. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you agree with that, Rex? I 20 mean -- 21 MR. EMERSON: I do, and I think everybody's on the 22 same page. But it's important to note that there's a big 23 difference between Leonard or the Court taking action on your 24 guidance, as opposed to legal opinion and the resulting 25 immunities that derive therefrom. 11-13-07 51 1 MR. ODOM: And for your information, I did write -- 2 O.S.S.F. required a writing, and it needed it then, so that 3 was the reason I did it. I followed through after 4 investigating it with the different surveyors and finding -- 5 and gave written opinion myself. So, in that aspect, you 6 know, I tried -- and I appreciate your opinion, because it 7 needed some help at that time. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I'll continue to give 9 opinions on a limited basis. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything further on that particular 11 item? Okay. It's now 9 o'clock. Let's go to Item 1; 12 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on a request 13 from the Riverhill Oaks Homeowners Association to rent the 14 Union Church at historical rate of $37.50 for three dates in 15 2008, being the annual meeting January 10th, and potluck 16 socials on April 17th and October 16th, for small, tenured, 17 not-for-profit homeowners association. Mr. Boudreaux? 18 MR. BOUDREAUX: Good morning. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Before Mr. Boudreaux 20 starts, let me say that my property is in the Oaks of 21 Riverhill; I'm a member of this association, and so I will 22 recuse myself from this discussion. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Mr. Boudreaux? 24 MR. BOUDREAUX: I am here on behalf the Riverhill 25 Oaks Homeowners Association of 60 folks, who have enjoyed 11-13-07 52 1 meeting three times a year for many years at the historical 2 Union Church, and as have I requested, would like to continue 3 to do that at the historical rate. We are a nonprofit 4 organization, and we are a tenured organization, and request 5 that we be permitted to continue at the historical rate. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you know offhand what the 7 non -- what the posted rate is for what you were trying to 8 do? 9 MR. BOUDREAUX: Yes, sir. I'm told that it was -- 10 it's $100 a time. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: I believe the new rate schedule that 12 we approved is $25 an hour, but I believe there's a four-hour 13 minimum on the use of that facility. I think the issue is 14 really, are we going to adopt a policy of those that have had 15 previous use of that facility being able to continue at the 16 old rates, or did we adopt a new policy, and it applies to 17 everybody from the adoption of that policy date forward? I 18 think that's really the issue that we've got. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I think -- 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That's the question on the 21 table today. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, that's what I see. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Exactly. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That issue, to me, we go by our 25 new rates, and our new rates are $100. Now, we have the 11-13-07 53 1 latitude to grant a reduction from that rate. I mean, I 2 don't want to ever get connected -- I mean, from now forward. 3 To me, the historical rate is nice to know what we used to 4 charge, but it's irrelevant. Now we can give a discount off 5 our current rate, and -- and one -- and I think they qualify 6 to at least be under for consideration, being a nonprofit, 7 and a local nonprofit. 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Being a nonprofit and a 9 tenured nonprofit? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But I think, you know, I 11 wouldn't -- I guess I wouldn't mind giving them a 50 percent 12 reduction. I think we need to somewhat stay with our current 13 format; we need to give a 25, 50 or 75 percent reduction. 14 And -- 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Now, they have the word 16 "small" in here, that they are a small group, which means 17 that they can't afford the new rates. I mean, I'm just being 18 honest; that's the way I read that, is that -- 19 MR. BOUDREAUX: Yes, sir, that's the intention. We 20 have 60 property owners, and we -- our only source of income 21 is the assessment on those property owners, and our budget is 22 small. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't believe less than a 24 dollar a person would be unreasonable. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think -- I mean, I'll make a 11-13-07 54 1 motion to grant a 50 percent reduction. 2 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that rate would be $50? 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: $50. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I'll second the motion. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to grant a 6 50 percent discount from the current rate schedule to the 7 Riverhill Oaks Homeowners Association. Any question or 8 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 9 your right hand. 10 (Commissioners Baldwin, Letz, and Oehler voted in favor of the motion.) 11 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Abstain. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Let the record reflect that 15 Commissioner Williams abstained from participation or voting 16 on that item. Thank you, sir. 17 MR. BOUDREAUX: Thank you. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, let's move to Item 25; 19 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to cast votes 20 for directors of the Kerr County Appraisal District. I put 21 this on the agenda. As all of you know, annually we cast our 22 votes based upon the vote allocation that's given to us, and 23 they're shown on your backup to the agenda item. The votes 24 that we have per director are 1,101. Since there are five 25 elected, we have five times that, or 5,505. We can cast all 11-13-07 55 1 or any portion of those votes for one director, spread them 2 out. The only caveat is that if we want to move to have a 3 director removed, we have to have had at least one vote cast 4 for that director. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I mean, I think it's -- 6 obviously, in my opinion, we need to have Mr. Lewis 7 re-elected, 'cause he kind of represents the Court, and he's 8 the person I go to if I have a problem with that board. I 9 think in the past, generally, we cast all our votes for that 10 one person, but we could cast one -- I don't know that I'm -- 11 I may want sometime to remove somebody out there, so we could 12 put one for each of the others and then the balance for 13 Mr. Lewis. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: That would be 5,500 for Charles 15 Lewis, and then one each for each of the five others, for a 16 total of 5,505, which would be the total cumulative votes we 17 have. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's my motion. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second as 22 indicated. Question or discussion on the motion? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Only an observation more than 24 anything else, is that I don't recall ever seeing Comfort ISD 25 and Medina ISD being part of this ballot before. 11-13-07 56 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I was going to ask you 2 about that in terms of his representation. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I mean, I just -- 4 it's -- I mean, obviously, they're -- they have a lot of 5 property in the county, but I just never noticed them being 6 part of the voting for the county before. But it doesn't 7 make any difference from our standpoint who we vote for. I 8 just thought that was interesting. 9 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Are all of these -- are all 10 these up? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think they're all up every -- 12 all up every two years, I think. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 'Cause I'm not -- it's 14 been so long since I've been involved with this, I don't -- 15 I'm not very well up on it. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I think every two years. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Every two years? Every other 18 year. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, some of these other 20 areas, areas like Ingram and Hunt, they won't be able to have 21 their own appointee with just their votes. They would have 22 to get votes from some other source. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. And K.I.S.D. has worked 25 with the other entities historically to allow representation 11-13-07 57 1 of most of the entities. I think there's -- and I will also 2 note that I think there's two new ones, it appears to me. 3 Hank Moody is a new person. I believe Mr. Stanley used to be 4 a representative from the city of Kerrville, and Mark Bigott 5 or Bigott, whatever. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Bigott. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bigott. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Bigott. I don't believe he's 9 currently a member either. But -- so, anyway, looks like 10 there's some new people, new names on this list. Kirk 11 Griffin has been on there for some time. So has Phillip 12 Stacy and Ray Orr. 13 (Discussion off the record.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or discussion on 15 the motion? 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yes, sir. I've got a -- I 17 got a comment to make on that. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: All right, sir. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: To add to that discussion on 20 the other end of the table. The fact is that this probably 21 is one of the most important boards in this community, and 22 it's just like anything else. These guys get on there for 23 two years, and they finally figure out where the men's room 24 is and who the other members of their board is and how they 25 function, how this thing functions, and suddenly they're 11-13-07 58 1 removed. I don't know how to fix that, but I certainly think 2 that it's worthy of discussion with the other entities, to 3 try to figure out a way to make their length of service 4 longer, or -- I don't know -- I don't know the answer to it, 5 but it's just -- it's a problem. I see it as a problem, a 6 major problem. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think that the -- from my 8 understanding in talking with Mr. Lewis, the changes made on 9 this one -- and I said Mr. Stanley; it's actually Mr. Stanley 10 Beard, the person that rotated off, I think represents the 11 city of Kerrville. He's had health issues that have 12 prevented him from attending many of the meetings, so there 13 is probably going to be a change to get more participation. 14 But I agree with you, you need to be on that board a little 15 bit. But I also think that the -- the entities in the 16 community need to look to these people for setting the -- you 17 know, the tone of the Appraisal District, 'cause it is a very 18 important board, and they do appoint the ARP members. And 19 it's -- this board has a great deal of everyone's pocketbook 20 in the county. That is a very important board. 21 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: This board also hires and 22 fires the Chief Appraiser. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Right. Well, I'm 24 comfortable with Mr. Lewis' representation for Kerr County. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No question, he's a giant. 11-13-07 59 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question -- sorry. Any 2 other question or comment on the motion? All in favor of the 3 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's go 8 back to the 9:10 item now. Consider, discuss, and take 9 appropriate action to renew the Kerr County Market Days usage 10 license for 2008. Ms. Anderson? 11 MS. ANDERSON: Good morning. Pleasure to be back 12 before you this morning. I thank you for your time on your 13 agenda. 2007 is our sixth year of operation of Kerr County 14 Market Days, and it has certainly been our most successful 15 year, and we're here this morning to ask for renewal of our 16 agreement for 2008 with no changes to the current agreement. 17 The changes we implemented in 2007, the March date, the 18 two-day event on Memorial Day, went very, very smoothly; I 19 think contributed greatly to how well the market went this 20 year. Our size of the market continues to grow. We're 21 running right now about 9 percent above last year, and it's 22 certainly on track to maintain that through the end of the 23 year. So, very short and sweet and simple. 24 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: LuAnn, after we approve 25 this, this will make how many total years? 11-13-07 60 1 MS. ANDERSON: 2007 is actually our sixth year. We 2 began in midyear in 2002. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. 4 MS. ANDERSON: And, so, counting that as our first 5 year, we're -- '07 is our sixth, and this will make our 6 seventh year. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly, it's flown by, hasn't 8 it? Time is fun when you're having flies. Thought I'd throw 9 that in there. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Your schedule is once a 11 month? 12 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, sir. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you found, after going 14 to that once a month, that it has increased your 15 participation? 16 MS. ANDERSON: I believe it has, particularly with 17 the current situation and what we've been in for the last 18 couple years with the increase in gas prices, because some of 19 our vendors do come from some distance. And it's been very, 20 very good for them to not make that journey twice a month, so 21 we've really taken off in our participation and putting it 22 into that one event each month. And we're still not in 23 direct competition with any significant events in this part 24 of the state, so we're getting more new vendors and getting 25 some very high-quality folks, and continuing to have a change 11-13-07 61 1 in what we offer to our customers; continue to have some good 2 variety in what's available at the market. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: What's been the progression, 4 numbers-wise, of the number of vendors, and how has that 5 stabilized? 6 MS. ANDERSON: Well, in 2002, in our first market, 7 we had 12 vendors, and we had rapid growth in that first 8 year. I think in '03 and '04, we probably had 100 vendors at 9 a couple of our markets. We may hit that number again this 10 year at the November market, and perhaps the December market. 11 But what has really changed is our average, which had sort of 12 in the early years been about 45, 50 vendors per market. Now 13 we're averaging 65 to 70 per market, and we've already been 14 over 80 one time this year -- actually, twice, Memorial Day 15 and this past market in October. So, that -- that average 16 number is moved up and is holding very steady right now. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: In terms of remaining space here at 18 the courthouse, are you pretty well maxed out, or do have a 19 little cushion? 20 MS. ANDERSON: We have some space. We are not 21 maxed out. And we really think that that's to our advantage. 22 We don't ever see trying to become a huge market with 150 23 vendors or anything like that. What we want to focus on and 24 what we have been pretty strict on this year is reviewing the 25 application for vendors so that we're being more and more 11-13-07 62 1 selective about the vendors we accept to come to this market. 2 And having that finite number, I think probably max about 3 100, it really helps us. It gives us the ability and 4 justification for saying, "I'm not quite sure that's exactly 5 what we're looking for in this market," and recommending some 6 other venues to some of our applicants. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Well, I want to thank you for the 8 work that you and Jackie have done in keeping this thing 9 flowing, and when we come back after your weekend to our 10 courthouse, we find it in at least as good of shape as it was 11 in before you started the weekend, and never had a problem 12 with any debris or trash that wasn't under control, and 13 everything seems to be in super order. So, I thank you for 14 that. 15 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you, I appreciate that. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I agree with that, Judge. 17 And I come in after you've done your weekend thing, and the 18 driveways are clean and there's no trash on the lawns, and I 19 commend you for that. 20 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you very much. We have some 21 folks who assist us with that, and they work very hard. We 22 don't ever want you to see any trash left over from Market 23 Days. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Do you charge the vendors a 25 fee to come in and sell? 11-13-07 63 1 MS. ANDERSON: We do. The first year there was no 2 fee; we operated on donations. I think, you know, that year 3 we came out $13 in the hole or something like that. We had 4 implemented a fee in the second year. What we're very proud 5 of is that, because of the increased average participation, 6 we've been able to keep our fees the lowest you'll find most 7 anywhere, which gives practically everybody an opportunity to 8 take part in the market, and also makes it very accessible to 9 our nonprofit groups who use this as a fundraising 10 opportunity. But, yes, we charge -- if you register and pay 11 in advance, we charge $15. If you come through the gate, 12 we'll make you pay $25. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: And you use that money for your 14 administrative expenses, your advertising and things of that 15 nature? 16 MS. ANDERSON: Our biggest single expense is 17 advertising. Second largest expense is for the porta-cans, 18 and that takes up probably 30 to 40 percent of our total 19 revenues. So the rest is spent on things like printing and 20 supplies and safety gear, and we bought our own barricades. 21 We have some capital investment, plus we have this past year 22 $1,200 for the bench to the courthouse. So -- 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Do you ever see -- how do I 24 do this right? Do you see in the spring the possibility of 25 more vegetables? 11-13-07 64 1 MS. ANDERSON: I wish. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 3 MS. ANDERSON: We -- 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I may be living in the past; 5 I don't know. But I just -- I can't help but think that that 6 is a perfect avenue for an old coot like me to come get my 7 okra and squash. 8 MS. ANDERSON: We wish. Two things have happened. 9 '06 was a terrible year for growers. In fact, my own crop 10 failed. '07, in the beginning, we thought it was going to be 11 fabulous, before everything drowned. So, for the last two 12 years, it's been extremely difficult to even find any local 13 produce to bring to market. What we did have, because of our 14 March startup date this year, we had several brand-new and 15 very large and fabulous plant vendors who were here in March 16 and April and May, some folks bringing in their own homegrown 17 plants, and a lot of those herb and vegetable plants. And so 18 we had some really good participation on the plant side, but 19 we are always searching for people to bring the produce. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: That would be neat. I'd 21 like to see it. 22 MS. ANDERSON: I would too. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thank you. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have a motion yet? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: No, we don't have a motion yet. 11-13-07 65 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I'll make a motion we reapprove 3 the contract with Market Days group. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: For 2008? 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2007-2008. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: You have a second, Commissioner 7 Baldwin? 8 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I would. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 2008. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. We have a motion and 11 second. Any further question or discussion on that motion? 12 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 13 hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Thank you, 18 Ms. Anderson. 19 MS. ANDERSON: Thank you. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll move to Item 26; consider, 21 discuss, and take appropriate action to approve Kerr County 22 employee voluntary supplemental insurance programs or plans 23 with guaranteed issue and County-approved electronic 24 enrollment features, and funded through employee payroll 25 deduction, and authorize County Judge to sign agreement for 11-13-07 66 1 same. I put this on the agenda at the request of Mr. Looney. 2 The volunteer program that he required for voluntary 3 supplemental, his two absolute requirements were the 4 guaranteed issue with no evidence of insurability, and that 5 it be compatible with electronic enrollment, which he has 6 specified with his bids for -- for the employee health 7 benefits plan. And with regard to -- I think at some point, 8 the issue was raised about that that needed to be put out for 9 bids, and my understanding is -- and the County Attorney has 10 reviewed it -- that it does not. There are no county funds 11 involved in that, and no expenditure of county funds. But in 12 order to offer those, we need to approve the plans or 13 programs. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, I don't have any problem 15 with that part of it, but the question I have, how do we keep 16 control -- is this open to any -- to all insurance companies? 17 How do we keep from having our H.R. Department having 500 18 different insurance companies that we have to work with? 19 JUDGE TINLEY: This is how -- exactly how we have 20 done it, by approving a supplemental plan, voluntary 21 supplemental insurance plans that have been submitted through 22 the process and reviewed by our consultant, with the 23 requirements that if someone wants to be considered for that, 24 they must offer guaranteed issue with no evidence of 25 insurability, and be compatible with the electronic 11-13-07 67 1 enrollment process. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, all the supplemental 3 insurance is part of the current RFP that's out there? 4 JUDGE TINLEY: No, it's separate and apart from the 5 RFP, because this is voluntary and there are no county funds 6 involved. But the plans or proposals were submitted to our 7 consultant for review. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, how -- I guess my 9 question is, if there's no RFP, how do they know to submit 10 them to the consultant for review? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Ms. Hyde? 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I thought that was the whole 13 reason we were changing, is that we didn't want to be picking 14 a person that we were going to have to get supplemental 15 through; it was open to everybody, or we weren't going to do 16 it at all. 17 MS. HYDE: When the RFP goes out for the insurance, 18 that opens up the door for all insurance carriers. The 19 biggest thing that most of the supplemental insurance 20 carriers are going to have a problem with is the guaranteed 21 issue. That means it doesn't matter what is wrong with any 22 employee; they are guaranteed issue. You can't get that 23 typically from most of your supplementals, unless it's -- 24 it's the first time. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. So, it's part of -- the 11-13-07 68 1 supplemental is part of the RFP. 2 MS. HYDE: It was not put out as an RFP, no. All 3 it did -- 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: If it's not RFP -- you just 5 said it was out through the RFP. 6 MS. HYDE: Because the insurance companies -- the 7 insurance companies know when they see the RFP. Just like 8 here locally, we've had several local insurance carriers. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do they know? 10 MS. HYDE: 'Cause they read the RFP. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But it's not part of the RFP. 12 You just told me the supplemental is not part of the RFP, so 13 how do insurance companies know that we are going to offer 14 supplemental? 15 MS. HYDE: Because typically you offer supplemental 16 insurances. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. That's -- see, I mean, 18 I just want to make sure that we're playing on a level field. 19 And if the insurance industry aren't told that we're going to 20 do supplemental, how do they know that we're going to do 21 supplemental? 22 MS. HYDE: Well, any insurance company that's 23 currently doing supplementals, they know. They knew 24 before -- before anything was ever asked. They saw what was 25 in the newspapers, and they have contacted Gary. 11-13-07 69 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We are changing from what we've 2 done in the past this year. 3 MS. HYDE: Mm-hmm. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do they know that we're 5 doing it differently? Where was it -- is it written in the 6 RFP that doesn't cover supplemental that we're doing this? I 7 mean, I think that we're -- in my opinion, I'm not going to 8 approve this unless it's open to the whole industry, and I 9 don't see how the industry knows about it. 10 MS. HYDE: Okay. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We haven't done an RFP; how do 12 they know? I mean, you told me it's not part of the RFP that 13 we put out. 14 MS. HYDE: That's right. 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So it's not out to the 16 industry, then. 17 MS. HYDE: It was not put out as part of the RFP 18 last year or the year before or the year before. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: And we've been criticized for 20 that, and we're not doing it that way any more. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Commissioner, I'm not sure that 22 it -- it was not part of the bid portion of the RFP or the 23 Request for Proposals. I think the RFP -- I want to look at 24 it to be certain, but I think the RFP stated that we would 25 also be considering voluntary employee supplemental 11-13-07 70 1 coverages. 2 MS. HYDE: Right. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Now, those are not bid. Those are 4 not bid, but the fact that those were included as -- from a 5 notice standpoint is I think what you're concerned about. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, I -- yeah. The notice 7 part of it, but what you're saying is anybody that does these 8 two things, any company can then write supplemental insurance 9 with Kerr County if they do these two items on here, that 10 they'll accept anybody and will do it electronically, then we 11 have to accept them. Whether -- 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Is that correct, Ms. Hyde? 13 MS. HYDE: That's not how I understood it, no, sir. 14 They have to go through Mr. Looney, and they have to be able 15 to utilize the software package that we're trying to 16 purchase. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. How do they know to go 18 through Mr. Looney? 19 MS. HYDE: Because it says in the notice to contact 20 him. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We've never done a supplemental 22 RFP; you just told me that. 23 MS. HYDE: It's not under the bid. You asked if we 24 were bidding it. No, sir, we're not bidding it. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We have a document floating out 11-13-07 71 1 there, a public notice that's saying anybody -- anybody that 2 wants to offer supplemental insurance to Kerr County 3 employees, please contact Mr. Looney? 4 MS. HYDE: I can go pull the newspaper and see 5 what -- exactly what this newspaper article says. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I just want to make sure that 7 even -- I mean, that we're -- we're doing it the way we said 8 we're going to do it. I'm not positive, from what I'm 9 hearing, that we are. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, that raises another 11 question, too, and how are all these supplemental carriers -- 12 how are they made aware of the two conditions or policy, 13 whichever -- however you want to state it, of guaranteed 14 enrollment and the elec -- guaranteed approval, insurability, 15 and electronic enrollment? How do they know that? 16 MS. HYDE: When they contact the consultant and 17 they talk to the consultant. And, I'm sorry; that's where I 18 went. I was trying to get a hold of Gary. Gary's stuck in 19 the airport. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That gets back to 21 Commissioner Letz' first question. Are we setting up a 22 situation where we're going to have 500 supplemental 23 insurance carriers out there? 24 MS. HYDE: No, sir, that was not -- that's not the 25 intent at all. 11-13-07 72 1 JUDGE TINLEY: In fact, by following the process 2 that we're following, at the consultant's recommendation, 3 we're trying to avoid that. We are currently doing payroll 4 deduction. This does not prevent an employee from doing 5 business with a current provider, any other third-party 6 provider, current, present, future. What it does, it puts 7 them under our umbrella so that we're controlling what we 8 have to do payroll deduction for, and that's all we're doing 9 payroll deduction for, because it's part of our overall plan. 10 This is merely voluntary supplemental coverage, which the 11 employees are free to accept or not accept at their own 12 choosing. They're paying for it, so it's their call to make. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: But I think probably what we need to 15 do is to defer on this matter till we can look at the -- at 16 the Request for Proposals, see exactly what that language 17 was, and we're going to have an advertised portion, and then 18 there's going to be probably an expanded response. So, let's 19 pull those and take a look at them, and we'll come back and 20 take a look at it. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess my question is, if -- I 22 mean, the RFP may -- I'd like to get a copy of the RFP. 23 Maybe if I read it, maybe I wouldn't have some of the 24 questions that I'm having on the insurance. But if the RFP 25 says that whoever gets our coverage has the option of writing 11-13-07 73 1 supplemental, and only with that one company, I don't really 2 have a problem with that, but I just need to make sure that 3 we're all playing on the same -- you know. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think what that means is 5 that it's just -- that company also has the right to offer 6 the supplemental, in addition to the ones that already exist 7 that can qualify. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But if you -- but if you go 9 with the "in addition," then every company that meets those 10 two qualifications can write supplemental insurance, and we 11 have to do it, and that's going to be a lot of people, 12 potentially. 13 MR. EMERSON: I'm not sure how we get there, but my 14 understanding is -- and I don't know if this will help or 15 hurt, but my understanding of the process was that we wanted 16 to narrow it to one primary company that we would do 17 deductions for, and then any other company that wanted to 18 provide it, it was up to the employee to pay direct, in order 19 to save H.R. from getting into situations where they were 20 dealing with 35 different companies. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 22 MR. EMERSON: I don't know how the notice went out 23 to determine who that primary company is. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, and that's my question. 25 But I guess if it's just -- and where is the notice that said 11-13-07 74 1 we're doing it? Because this is the first time we've really 2 talked about supplemental here. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The thing is, I think that 4 one of the reasons it may have been written the way that it 5 was, that there are quite a few employees that have been with 6 a different company than what may or may not get the bid, and 7 they were concerned that they would be having to change their 8 coverage. And this would allow them to continue using their 9 same alternative coverage, or whatever you want to call it, 10 that they've had in the past, if they can qualify to do the 11 electronic filings. Is that correct? 12 MS. HYDE: Yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: You can't -- you can have 14 more than one company doing it this way, which does open it 15 up. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: To everyone. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: As long as they can qualify. 18 I think that that will allow them to sell supplemental 19 insurance to employees. 20 MS. PEREZ: Good morning. Teri Perez with Alamo 21 Insurance. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: We probably got this thing all 23 discombooberated six different directions. Head us back to 24 the middle, okay? 25 MS. PEREZ: Different viewpoints; it's very good. 11-13-07 75 1 I work with Gary, and actually, he's my boss. And, 2 unfortunately, he wasn't able to make it today, so we do 3 apologize for that. However, if I could just interject, what 4 normally we do is we shop the market, if you will. The RFP 5 was put out into the public for the medical and various other 6 things that go along with that. The supplemental portions, 7 though, were actually bid out to the market by our company. 8 So what we do is we just basically blanket, you know, all the 9 different carriers and request for them -- from them, excuse 10 me, certain parameters. In the case of Kerr County, you 11 wanted guaranteed issue, and you wanted the carriers to be 12 able to accept the EDI feeds via the internet, or through the 13 internet system, so that's what we were looking for. So, not 14 all carriers out there can do it. In fact, there's a lot of 15 carriers that just won't use other people's software, so that 16 kind of limits the field a little bit. 17 And so what we did is we basically got all these 18 bids in, and they were evaluated by Gary, and we determined a 19 certain package, and that's what it is that we're trying to 20 present here today. The companies that we have presented to 21 you will provide guaranteed issue to the employees to a 22 certain level, and they will accept the feed, and they will 23 accept pin signatures so that the H.R. folks don't have to 24 deal with all the paperwork, all the applications and losing 25 of the paperwork on the carrier's side. And it's actually to 11-13-07 76 1 the benefit of any client, Kerr County being one of them, to 2 be able to move forward in that manner with the ongoing 3 enrollments. It'll also ease the H.R. Department moving 4 forward with new hire situations, because somebody does have 5 to enroll those folks. This will give employees an 6 opportunity to be able to enroll either here on-site, or from 7 their home base, depending on how, you know, the folks want 8 to do it here and set it up. So, with all those things and 9 having those goals in mind, it kind of narrows the field as 10 to who the players are going to be at the end of the day. A 11 number of the supplemental carriers, again, will not accept 12 data, you know, through another system, meaning an enrollment 13 system that is not their own. So, again, it kind of, you 14 know, narrows that field a little bit. 15 MS. HYDE: And part of that is because they -- they 16 will not -- they will no longer own our data. Currently, 17 they -- if you have a supplemental -- and I'll use 18 Commissioner Baldwin. If you have a supplemental and they 19 have your name, they own your information. We don't have any 20 right to tell them no currently with the ones that we use. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So all supplemental goes 22 through Alamo Insurance Group? 23 MS. PEREZ: I'm sorry? 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All the supplemental insurance 25 goes through Alamo Insurance Group? If you -- you said that 11-13-07 77 1 you put out the bid under certain criteria. 2 MS. PEREZ: Mm-hmm. So all the bids came back to 3 us for evaluation. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 5 MS. PEREZ: Yes, sir. 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Well, not for evaluation. You 7 said Alamo Insurance Group set the criteria for how we're 8 doing supplemental. 9 MS. PEREZ: Well, we cite the criteria based on 10 what it was that the client wanted, and the client wanted -- 11 which you guys are the clients -- wanted the online 12 enrollment system and the guaranteed issue for policies for 13 people that perhaps may not be insurable in any other form. 14 'Cause you do have employees that, quite frankly, can't get 15 coverage for those types of policies, so being that that was 16 part of the criteria, yes, we sent out to market what the 17 criteria was that you folks were looking for as an end 18 result. I'm sorry, did that answer the question? 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It does. I'm just -- that's 20 not all that I thought Gary's company was charged with doing. 21 I thought they were doing evaluation. It just seems like 22 it's a little bit odd to me. I mean, I don't know that I 23 recall ever authorizing Alamo Insurance Group to go out there 24 and set the criteria for supplemental insurance and go out 25 and solicit bids for it. We did -- I mean, that's not what I 11-13-07 78 1 recall doing. 2 MS. PEREZ: I don't think we set the criteria. I 3 think -- 4 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: There's only two -- there's 5 only two parameters. 6 MS. HYDE: Only two criteria. Guaranteed issue to 7 every employee. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Guaranteed issuance to 9 everybody, right, regardless of past history. And do 10 electronic -- 11 MS. PEREZ: Or current history. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Only two policy issues 13 there. 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, any company in the nation 15 that meets these two criteria can write supplemental 16 insurance in Kerr County. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: No, they were -- they do respond to 18 Alamo. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Where's the RFP for that 20 purpose? See, that's what I'm saying. I just don't think we 21 can do that. 22 MS. HYDE: But there's no county -- there's no 23 county funds, so there was no RFP needed. This is -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: How do we prevent somebody else 25 from -- okay, I'm just saying -- I don't know. 11-13-07 79 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, they're preventing 2 themselves -- if they don't want to assure guaranteed 3 acceptance into the plan, that automatically takes them out. 4 That's their decision. Or if they don't want to abide by 5 electronic application or enrollment, if they say, "We don't 6 want to do that," then they're automatically out of the plan. 7 I think the distinction between the two is that we're not 8 paying for any of this. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, I'm not -- I'm concerned 10 about it being a level playing field, that any company is 11 allowed to write it under these two criteria. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any company is still allowed to 13 write -- 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Whether Alamo Insurance writes 15 it or not. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any company is still allowed to 17 write it, whether they've talked to Alamo Insurance or not. 18 You can -- you can contract with any number of -- of 19 providers, through brokers or otherwise, for whatever 20 coverage you desire. The key is, if it's going to come 21 through payroll deduction from Kerr County, it must have 22 these two features with it. And that's how -- that's how it 23 was narrowed. The others are still free to write whatever 24 coverage on whatever terms they choose with any employee of 25 Kerr County. 11-13-07 80 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, any company that allows you 2 electronic sign-up and will not turn anyone down can write in 3 Kerr County. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: No. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's what you said. There's 6 only two criteria, I'm being told. 7 MS. PEREZ: Well, it's the two criteria that 8 started out as to what, you know, the client wanted. I mean, 9 in theory, you've got -- you know, you've got hundreds of 10 carriers out there. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 12 MS. PEREZ: But the question is, do you want every 13 single one of them on the grounds going from location to 14 location? Probably not, because it kind of gets in the way 15 of your everyday business. So, part of the whole H.R. 16 function and the employee benefits function is to get an 17 employee benefit package. So, what we -- again, what we were 18 asked to do, it's my understanding, unless I'm wrong, is to 19 verify that we can find somebody that would provide the 20 employees here with guaranteed issue coverage, and that -- 21 because, you know, the folks here wanted to go online, move 22 in that direction; you know, have that in it as well. You 23 know, we've been -- we've been doing this for a while, and 24 I'll tell you, it's really tough getting carriers to, one, 25 take the feed via the way that we're trying to do it, through 11-13-07 81 1 EDI feed. Some of them want to do it; some of them don't 2 want to do it. It's kind of a tough thing. And the other 3 part is the guaranteed issue. You know, that's -- that's one 4 thing that I think, from the employees' standpoint, that's a 5 real biggie, because you do have folks here that, I mean, are 6 just -- may not be able to get coverage through any other 7 means. So, being able to offer those two things is a great 8 thing. But putting them together, you know, now you have 9 more obstacles in the way, because supplemental carriers -- 10 you know, a lot of them are coming out with the new online 11 enrollments for themselves, which is great, and they can 12 provide additional, you know, perks and bells and whistles 13 for clients that provide their policies to their employees. 14 But, again, as we were kind of talking about, it becomes 15 their data, and if you should cut your ties with that carrier 16 at some point in the future, you know, the question becomes, 17 can you get the data back? So -- 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I guess, you know, I -- 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Another thing is that any 20 employee can get any coverage they want, anywhere they want, 21 as long as they pay for it. It just won't be taken out in 22 payroll deduction. 23 MS. PEREZ: But that's not actually true, sir. Not 24 every employee can get coverage, and that's the whole reason 25 for the guaranteed issue. 11-13-07 82 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: They could go somewhere else 2 and get other -- and not have payroll deductions; they can 3 pay it out of their own pocket. 4 MS. HYDE: Yeah, they can. 5 MS. PEREZ: They can apply for it, but that doesn't 6 mean they're going to get it. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's right. But if they 8 find the coverage they're looking for, they can do it 9 themselves. 10 MS. PEREZ: Absolutely. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Just -- it's not going to be 12 a payroll deduction. 13 MS. PEREZ: Absolutely. 14 MR. EMERSON: Can I ask three specific questions 15 that I think will help cut to the chase? How did Alamo 16 Insurance disseminate notice to the insurance companies? 17 MS. PEREZ: We bid to the market the way we 18 normally do. We send out the information that we have 19 regarding the current benefit plan design and what the 20 client's end goal is. Again, the guaranteed issue limits, 21 the higher the better, and we send out to the marketplace to 22 people that we deal with and we work with, and different 23 carriers in and around San Antonio, Texas. 24 MR. EMERSON: Okay. The second question would be 25 how many companies have responded? 11-13-07 83 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me interject another question 2 before we get there. Is that a normally accepted method in 3 the industry for soliciting proposals for the types of 4 coverage that you were soliciting? 5 MS. PEREZ: Yes, sir. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 7 MS. HYDE: There's 24. 8 MR. EMERSON: Twenty-four companies responded? 9 MS. PEREZ: And not all of them supplied bids. 10 MR. EMERSON: Okay. 11 MS. PEREZ: We did have some decline. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Did Alamo receive any 13 compensation through any of these insurance companies for 14 supplemental for doing this? 15 MS. PEREZ: Generally, if we are the agent of 16 record, yes, we do. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Are you acting as broker in this 18 case? 19 MS. PEREZ: In this case, I believe we are, for the 20 voluntary. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 22 MS. PEREZ: But that's -- again, I'm here for Gary, 23 so -- 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 25 MS. PEREZ: But I believe we are. 11-13-07 84 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So, our consultant chose who 2 they're going to offer the supplemental to, and then they're 3 getting a commission for it? 4 MS. PEREZ: For the supplemental portion. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right, supplemental portion 6 only. 7 MS. PEREZ: Yes, sir. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I've got a problem with that. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on the number of -- 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think that's what we 11 hired the consultant to do. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Based on the number of 13 enrollees. 14 MS. PEREZ: Yes, sir. 15 MS. HYDE: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I don't think that's the job of 17 our consultant. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What's the third question? 19 MR. EMERSON: That was it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we defer, gentlemen? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See how difficult it is for 11-13-07 85 1 Letz to give his opinion about that? It's like pulling teeth 2 or something. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Got another degree in dentistry, 4 didn't you? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly, wears me out 6 sometimes. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Wearing myself out, too. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. If there's no further action 9 on that, we'll take about a 15-minute recess. 10 (Recess taken from 9:45 a.m. to 10:06 a.m.) 11 - - - - - - - - - - 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's come back to order, if we 13 might. I have permission of Commissioner 1 to proceed. Item 14 27 -- or, excuse me, scratch that. Let's go to Item 8. I 15 will recess the Commissioners Court meeting at this time and 16 I will open a public hearing for the final revision of plat 17 for Lots 1, 5, 6, 11, 12, and 13 of Hill River Country 18 Estates, as set forth in Volume 3, Pages 118 and 119 of the 19 Plat Records. 20 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:07 a.m., and a public hearing was held in 21 open court, as follows:) 22 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the public 24 that wishes to be heard with respect to the final revision of 25 plat for Lots 1, 5, 6, 11, 12, and 13 of the Hill River 11-13-07 86 1 Country Estates? 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Seeing no one coming forward, I will 4 close the public hearing, and I will reconvene the -- I will 5 convene a public hearing for the final revision of plat for 6 Lots 25 and 26 of The Horizon, as set forth in Volume 6, 7 Pages 323 to 326, and located in Precinct 1. 8 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:07 a.m., and another public hearing was held in open court, 9 as follows:) 10 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 11 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the public 12 that wishes to be heard with respect to the final revision of 13 the plat for Lots 25 and 26 of The Horizon, as set forth in 14 Volume 6, Pages 323 to 326, and located in Precinct 1? 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Seeing no one coming forward, I will 17 close that public hearing, and I will convene and open a 18 public hearing for the revision of Lots 99, 100, and 101 of 19 The Horizon, as set forth in Volume 6, Pages 323 to 326, and 20 located in Precinct 1. 21 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:08 a.m., and another public hearing was held in open court, 22 as follows:) 23 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the public 25 that wishes to be heard with regard to the revision of Lots 11-13-07 87 1 99, 100, and 101 of The Horizon, as set forth in Volume 6, 2 Pages 323 to 326? 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Seeing no one coming forward, I will 5 close that public hearing, and I will open and convene a 6 public hearing for the revision of Lots 113 and 114, Vistas 7 Escondidas de Cypress Springs, as set forth in Volume 7, Page 8 363, and located in Precinct 4. 9 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:08 a.m., and another public hearing was held in open court, 10 as follows:) 11 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the public 13 that wishes to be heard concerning the revision of Lots 113 14 and 114, Vistas Escondidas de Cypress Springs, as set forth 15 in Volume 7, Page 363, and located in Precinct 4? 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Seeing no one coming forward, I will 18 close the public hearing for the revision of Lots 113 and 19 114, vistas Escondidas de Cypress Springs, as set forth in 20 Volume 7, Page 363. 21 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:09 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court meeting was 22 reopened.) 23 - - - - - - - - - - 24 JUDGE TINLEY: And I will reconvene the 25 Commissioners Court meeting, and we'll go to Item 10; 11-13-07 88 1 consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on the final 2 revision of plat for Lots 25 and 26 of The Horizon, as set 3 forth in Volume 6, Pages 323 to 326, and located in 4 Precinct 1. 5 MR. ODOM: Yes. This is removing of the line 6 between two lots, making one. At this time, we ask approval 7 for the revision of Lots 25 and 26 of The Horizon, Volume 6, 8 Pages 323 to 326, done under the alternate plat process. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and second for 12 approval of the agenda item. Question or discussion? All in 13 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 14 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 16 (No response.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 18 to Item 12; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 19 for the final revision on Lots 99, 100, and 101 of The 20 Horizon, as set forth in Volume 6, Pages 323 to 326, and 21 located in Precinct 1. 22 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. This is removing of the 23 lines, making one lot out of three. At this time, we ask 24 approval of this revision of Lots 99, 100, and 101 of The 25 Horizon, Volume 6, Pages 323 to 326, done under the alternate 11-13-07 89 1 plat process. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So moved. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 5 approval of the agenda item. Question questions or 6 discussion? All in favor of motion, signify by raising your 7 right hand. 8 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 10 (No response.) 11 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 12 to Item 14; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action 13 for final revision of Lots 113 and 114, Vistas Escondidas de 14 Cypress Springs, as set forth in Volume 7, Page 363, Plat 15 Records, and located in Precinct 4. 16 MR. ODOM: Yes, sir. This revision is combining 17 two lots into one. At this time, we're requesting approval 18 of the final plat for Lots 113 and 114 of Vistas Escondidas 19 de Cypress Springs. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So moved. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 23 approval. Any question or discussion? All in favor of the 24 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 25 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 11-13-07 90 1 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 2 (No response.) 3 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. Let's move 4 to Item 27; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 5 appoint Kerr County Sheriff's Department Lieutenant Bill Hill 6 to the AACOG Criminal Justice Advisory Committee, and 7 Kerrville Police Department Captain Jeffrey Wendling as 8 alternate -- or alternative, effective immediately, and 9 notify AACOG of the same. Commissioner Williams? 10 Commissioner Baldwin? One of you pick it up and run with it. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I move for approval. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 14 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 15 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 16 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 20 to Item 28; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action to 21 reappoint Kay Mosty Hayes to the Kerrville/Kerr County Joint 22 Library Advisory Board to a two-year term ending 23 November 2009. Subsequent to this agenda item being posted, 24 I was advised that that should have read a three-year term 25 ending November 22, 2010, according to Brenda Craig, 11-13-07 91 1 Kerrville City Clerk. 2 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's good, Judge. I 3 appreciate that. I wasn't certain whether it was two or 4 three. I've spoken with Ms. -- Ms. Hayes, and I've also 5 spoken with Commissioner Oehler, and I would move her 6 reappointment to the Joint Library Advisory Board. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: For a three-year term 9 ending November 2010. Correct? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Is that your second, Commissioner 11 Oehler? 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: We have a motion and a second. Any 14 question or discussion on the motion? 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Question. How many terms 16 will this make? 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: This will be her second, I 18 believe. 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second? Or she's in her 20 second right now? 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, this would be her 22 second. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: She's in her first. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. My understanding, 25 yes. 11-13-07 92 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: There's a maximum of two 2 terms; is that right? 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, I don't know. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Or can it just go forever? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Go forever, I think, if you 6 have the stomach for it. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And is she always a 8 three-year -- three-year term? 9 (Commissioner Williams nodded.) 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other question or discussion? 11 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 12 hand. 13 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. At this 17 time, I will recess the Commissioners Court hearing and open 18 a public hearing for the final revision of plat for Lot 17, 19 Privilege Creek Ranch, as set forth in Volume 8, Page 21, and 20 located in Precinct 3. 21 (The regular Commissioners Court meeting was closed at 10:19 a.m., and a public hearing was held in 22 open court, as follows:) 23 P U B L I C H E A R I N G 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Is there any member of the public 25 that wishes to be heard with regard to the final revision of 11-13-07 93 1 plat for Lot 17, Privilege Creek Ranch, as set forth in 2 Volume 8, Page 21? 3 (No response.) 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Seeing no one coming forward, I will 5 close the public hearing for the final revision of plat for 6 Lot 17, Privilege Creek Ranch, as set forth in Volume 8, Page 7 21, and located in Precinct 3. 8 (The public hearing was concluded at 10:19 a.m., and the regular Commissioners Court meeting was 9 reopened.) 10 - - - - - - - - - - 11 JUDGE TINLEY: And I will reconvene the 12 Commissioners Court meeting and go to Item 29; consider, 13 discuss, and take appropriate action to approve the contract 14 with Dietert Center and Hill Country Court-Appointed Special 15 Advocates, and allow the County Judge to sign the same. 16 These contracts were presented. Since receiving them and 17 reviewing them, I'm -- I would ask that the Hill Country 18 Court-Appointed Special Advocates contract not be considered 19 at this time until I've had a chance to review some budgetary 20 concerns concerning that. The Dietert contract appears to me 21 to be in order. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Move approval of the 23 Dietert contract, and authorize County Judge to sign same. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 11-13-07 94 1 approval of the Dietert contract and authorize County Judge 2 to sign same. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 3 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 4 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 5 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 6 (No response.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. We'll move 8 to Item 30; consider, discuss, and take appropriate action on 9 implementation of the burn ban. This is a 90-day rollover 10 item, I believe, and it was time for that one to come up 11 again. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 16 approval. Question or discussion? All in favor of the 17 motion, signify by raising your right hand. 18 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 20 (No response.) 21 JUDGE TINLEY: That motion does carry. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, just for the record, 23 that revision includes the ability of each Commissioner to 24 set the burn ban or suspend the burn ban in their precinct, 25 as they deem appropriate. 11-13-07 95 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Suspend it or reimpose as they may 2 see from time to time, as conditions warrant. Exactly. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Let's move to Item 31, presentation 5 of audits on the following departments: Justice of the 6 Peace, Precinct 1; Justice of the Peace, Precinct 2; Justice 7 of the Peace, Precinct 3; Justice of the Peace, Precinct 4; 8 District Attorney; County Attorney; Animal Control; and Jail 9 Commissary. Ms. Hargis, County Auditor. 10 MS. HARGIS: I think all of you have a copy. I 11 thought we were going to put this on tomorrow, so I'm waiting 12 for my file to come. But in the J.P. departments, as with 13 all of the departments, most of this was just -- this was a 14 cash audit that I did, focusing on internal control for cash 15 purposes. And in the J.P. offices, we found -- 'cause you 16 can see from your report, just minor things that we needed to 17 clean up and implement, and those have been done, and I think 18 they're all on board with them. I was very pleased with 19 those audits. And, as I said, the next go-round, we'll deal 20 with a little bit more internal control, but I think we -- we 21 have our cash going to a safer area. And the minor errors 22 that they had on their jackets I think are going to be taken 23 into consideration. We are going to meet together as a group 24 and work on some joint-type implementations of different 25 types of internal control, but I think for right now, they're 11-13-07 96 1 doing a very good job, and very pleased with all the clerks. 2 They're very conscientious with their jobs, as are the 3 judges, so I'm real pleased with that area. 4 In the District Attorney's office, that audit also 5 went very well. The only thing we found there was some 6 dormant accounts that we've asked them to clean up and 7 dispose of that have been around for a long time. In the 8 County Attorney's office, same situation. Everything was 9 being done very well there. The only thing we asked there is 10 maybe to have a little bit more modern technology with some 11 of their spreadsheets, as far as following some of the 12 receivables that they have. Otherwise -- but they were 13 keeping those in a -- in a spreadsheet by hand. Animal 14 Control did very well. They also included everything, and 15 cash-wise it's as tight as possible. We did check that. 16 They were using several receipt books, so we have reduced 17 those down to one so that they have more continuity and don't 18 have as many receipt books found. We also made some 19 constructive suggestions to them, and they were -- those have 20 already been implemented. 21 The Jail Commissary is the annual audit that they 22 give to you. That has to be submitted to the -- the justice 23 -- I mean, the state of Texas, and we're going to implement 24 there some additional software just to help us to balance 25 those things a little bit easier. And, again, mostly 11-13-07 97 1 everyone did very well. We just have some more current 2 technology and easier methods of doing things, more 3 productive, I think, and everybody's willing to do those. 4 You know, I'm real pleased with the way everything came out. 5 This is our first round. We're finishing up -- we're 6 finishing up the Tax Assessor's office, and I'll have that 7 report ready for you at the next meeting. So, everybody's 8 just been real great, and working with us really well. I 9 would like to introduce, though, while I'm here -- Ken, would 10 you like to come up? Ken Ruark is the internal auditor that 11 I spoke to you about that's been helping me with these 12 audits, and Ken's background was internal auditing in 13 Chicago, and he's working part-time, 'cause he won't work 14 full-time. So, 10 hours a week, and he's been very good in 15 helping me to get around to all these departments. Now, I 16 did do the commissary myself, and the J.P. offices. But 17 we're going to have some suggestions, I think, in the spring 18 to maybe help with some of the other problems we've been 19 dealing with as far as the software is concerned. But for 20 right now, we're just mainly looking to make sure that our 21 cash situations are tight, and our security's tight. And so 22 far, that's what we're finding. And if we're not, it's just 23 a minor thing, and we're making sure those are corrected. 24 And so are there any questions about the data that you 25 received? 11-13-07 98 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: A couple -- a comment and a 2 question. Have we done these before? 3 MS. HARGIS: No. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't think so. I was just, 5 like -- you know, yeah, I'm glad we're doing them. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, this is good stuff. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. The question was on 8 J.P.'s, there was only one statistic that was kind of quoted, 9 the number of cases per year and the budget. Is there -- I 10 mean, was that just that you felt that was a good measure of 11 their activity? Or why did you only include that particular 12 statistic? 13 MS. HARGIS: We -- each one of them got a specific 14 sample. And, to be honest with you, as we got down the line, 15 we got a little bit better with what we asked. And some of 16 them had the data readily available; some did not. We're in 17 transition with, you know, two of them. And so I think that 18 as we go along, we'll get more of that data. We will do the 19 J.P.'s again, quarterly. I would like to do those quarterly. 20 And, no, you've never had these done before. And should you 21 have had them done? Yes. But it's very hard for me, 22 especially right now, since I don't really have that fourth 23 person to help -- Tommy's really here to mostly train me, and 24 so I just -- this is my way of learning how the departments 25 work, as well as -- as, at the same time, providing them and 11-13-07 99 1 you with comfort that we're doing things efficiently and in 2 the right manner. So, again, I think they're good tools for 3 us to watch. Now, the commissary you have been getting, at 4 least on an annual basis, because that's required by law, and 5 as well as the others. But we don't have big staffs, so 6 we're trying real hard. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Ken, thank you. 8 MS. HARGIS: Any questions? 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Welcome to Texas. 10 MR. RUARK: Thank you. I've been here four years. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Four? We'll, you're an 12 old-timer, then. 13 MR. RUARK: Okay. Thank you much. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions? 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Looks like it's a wonderful 16 thing that this is being done for the first time, and it's 17 not only reflecting what has been going on, but it's also 18 kind of a protection to those other elected officials that 19 are involved in handling money, and it's a good thing. 20 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: It is a good thing. We're 21 focusing on cash controls now, and that's good. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we need to accept those, or 23 just the presentation? 24 MS. HARGIS: I need you to accept at least the 25 commissary one, because it has to go to the state. 11-13-07 100 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Are we in a position to do that with 2 the agenda item as styled, Mr. Emerson? 3 MR. EMERSON: No, sir. 4 MS. HARGIS: We can put it back on. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on that 6 particular agenda item? Let's move to Item 32; consider, 7 discuss, and take appropriate action regarding interlocal 8 agreement with the Texas Association of Counties Risk 9 Management Pool. 10 MS. HARGIS: That is on your agenda because they're 11 changing their year end to July 31. We had used -- it was 12 the same fiscal year end as ours, but they're actually 13 changing that to July. So, we'll pay a premium for this 14 year, and then we'll turn around and have to pay another 15 premium in July. And they're also changing carriers, I 16 believe, as you can see from that letter, so we have to agree 17 to change, and I don't know that we have much choice. 18 JUDGE TINLEY: The note I have on what was provided 19 to me said that it was reviewed and approved by the County 20 Attorney; is that correct? 21 MS. HARGIS: It's been a while. 22 MR. EMERSON: If this is the same agreement I 23 reviewed a while back, yes. 24 MS. HARGIS: Yeah, we've had it since July. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 11-13-07 101 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: But nothing affects our 2 coverage, right? This is -- this is administrative on TAC's 3 part? 4 MS. HARGIS: Strictly -- 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Consolidating various 6 little departments into one? 7 MS. HARGIS: And changing their renewal date to 8 July instead of -- instead of October. 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Why would they change the 11 renewal date? I don't follow that. 12 MR. EMERSON: I suspect this is a follow-up to 13 their change of their administrative pools, when they took 14 their three separate pools and made it into one family back 15 in the middle of summer. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: But -- 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, I was there and voted 19 on that. But I don't recall -- that's the reason for my 20 question. I don't recall any date changes in there, but I 21 guess there was. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What -- I mean, just -- I don't 23 know that we have a choice, but what it does, it makes it 24 harder yet again for us to look to alternative coverage, 25 because the anniversary date is an odd date. I mean, most 11-13-07 102 1 other coverages you do on an annual basis. This puts it into 2 a way-off cycle from anybody else's in government, which I 3 suspect is another reason they're doing it, even though they 4 probably wouldn't say that. But their coverage is the most 5 economical right now, so... 6 JUDGE TINLEY: In context, if they're doing it in 7 July, it's probably better than our health benefits coverage, 8 because we're -- when we budget, we're plugged in for only 9 three months, and we're flying blind for nine. With this, 10 they're plugged in for nine months, and we're only flying 11 blind for three. So I guess, relatively speaking, this is 12 probably better. The ideal thing would be for everybody to 13 be October 1. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It takes a lawyer to see it 15 that way, but okay. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So what are we voting on? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess we have to vote on 19 it. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah, approval of the interlocal 21 agreement. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I move we approve the 23 interlocal agreement with TAC Risk Management Pool as 24 presented. 25 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. 11-13-07 103 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 2 approval of the interlocal agreement with the TAC Management 3 Risk Pool -- Risk Management Pool. Question or discussion? 4 All in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right 5 hand. 6 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 7 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 8 (No response.) 9 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Do we have 10 any matters to go into executive session, gentlemen? 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We still have one item that was 12 skipped. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, yeah, 10:30. And we're at 10:30 14 exactly right now. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Nice plan. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. You guys thought I just threw 17 this together without thinking, didn't you? 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Mm-hmm. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: We'll go to Item 19; consider -- 20 receive a report from Freese and Nichols on the Ingram Dam 21 and Flat Rock Dam evaluation of the concrete slab voids. 22 Commissioner Williams. 23 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I placed this on the agenda 24 because we received the reports from Mr. Schuster of Freese 25 and Nichols. And I don't know about the rest of you, but I 11-13-07 104 1 need an explanation, so the best way to get the explanation 2 is from the folks who did the work. Mr. Schuster? 3 MR. SCHUSTER: I'm going to set up a projector. Is 4 that possible? I see a screen behind you. Is it possible we 5 can set up a projector? That way we can show you. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: This one over here I think 7 is the best way. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: We normally let Buster set these up 9 because of his expertise in that field. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, his expertise in this. 11 Do I just bill y'all direct? Or -- 12 MR. SCHUSTER: Please. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay, be happy to. Where'd 14 the lawyer go? 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 MR. SCHUSTER: All right. Judge, Commissioners, my 17 name's Stefan Schuster. I've brought Les Boyd with me as 18 well to present to you the nondestructive evaluation of both 19 Flat Rock and Ingram Dams. The contracts were signed in 20 early June, and then we had 12 weeks of rain. I'll talk 21 about that in a little bit. My presentation is going to 22 cover, really, the introductions and field observations, the 23 recommendations, and then what do we recommend for the next 24 steps? There was a T.C.E.Q. inspection of the dams in 2006. 25 The Commissioners Court solicited vendors to evaluate the 11-13-07 105 1 condition of the dams in February '07. Consultant was 2 selected in May, and then we had 12 weeks of rain, and field 3 investigations were started in early August, and then today 4 we're reporting to you. 5 The report was turned in in October. I threw this 6 in here really just for my own edification, 'cause I was 7 curious to see whether the rains we had during June were 8 unusual, and so we looked at the last 20 years of records 9 pretty much. And I guess we should have done this earlier to 10 realize that, indeed, we have a heavy spike of rain in June 11 and July on a regular basis, so we should have known that 12 ahead of time. But, unfortunately, hindsight's 20/20. So, 13 I'm going to go ahead and explain a little bit to you about 14 the field methods that were conducted in order to evaluate 15 the subsurface conditions under the dams. As a qualifier, we 16 really looked for more -- this investigation focused more on 17 the contact between the concrete caps and the earthen 18 foundation than to look at really deep subsurface seepage 19 underneath the earthen structure. We have to do a different 20 type of testing in order to get down to penetration to go 21 through 20 feet of soil, so these investigations focused 22 really on the integrity of the cap and the -- the contact 23 with the surface beneath the concrete. 24 The first method that we used was ground- 25 penetrating radar. We set up grids that were 5-by-20 feet 11-13-07 106 1 across each of the dams, and then pulled across two different 2 types of machines. One was a 400 Megahertz and one was a 3 1,500 Megahertz electromagnetic -- electromagnetic wave pulse 4 generator, and then the reflections of the waves tell us 5 about the subsurface conditions. Here's a schematic of what 6 the ground-penetrating radar equipment looks like. 7 Obviously, we get some reflections from the rebar in the 8 concrete as well, but we're looking for the changes in the 9 subsurface condition outside of the rebar. And I've got an 10 example of this. It looks a little cryptic, but if you look 11 at it a little bit, this is what the data looks like coming 12 out of the ground-penetrating radar. You can see the bottom 13 of the concrete slab line, and you can see when it jumps. 14 There are areas where there is different contact, when 15 there's a different medium reflecting the waves back to the 16 equipment, and so this is the type of analysis that was done 17 by Olson Engineering. 18 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Stefan, don't go off of 19 that just yet. 20 MR. SCHUSTER: Yes, sir. 21 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: On the right where it says 22 area of water-filled void, -- 23 MR. SCHUSTER: Yes, sir. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- that's telling us that 25 there is a particular void there; it's obviously filled with 11-13-07 107 1 water, and we get a different signal? 2 MR. SCHUSTER: It's the change in the medium of the 3 reflection of the waves. So, what you see here is really 4 sort of -- you want to just draw a straight line, and then 5 you see the wave jumps, so there's -- there's a difference in 6 the medium from the wave reflection, and that's really what 7 the ground-penetrating radar looks for, is that change in 8 reflection of the wave returning back to the receiver. This 9 may have been a bad example. It was the only one we had a 10 graphic of, because it's not a real distinct -- to the 11 untrained eye, it's not necessarily a very distinct showing 12 of a void. But I'll show you some maps that were interpreted 13 based on this data. I just wanted you to understand what 14 type of data was collected by the equipment as we went across 15 the dams. 16 Once we had the ground-penetrating radar data and 17 the grid pattern across the dams, we went back and verified 18 where there were areas of suspected voids with a slab impulse 19 analysis. Very simple technology, really. It's a hammer 20 that has a sensor on it. It gets pounded on the surface, and 21 then, again, based on the reflection of the subsurface and 22 the delay in that signal returning, make an interpretation 23 about what type of subsurface conditions exist. Then, to 24 verify that data a third time, we also used an impact echo 25 analysis. This is equipment that's been designed by Olson 11-13-07 108 1 Engineering themselves, and it's really sort of a third check 2 on whether there -- there was a detectable void beneath the 3 surface. 4 What I'm going to go through now are the composite 5 maps that were created based on the ground-penetrating radar 6 and the slab impact analysis for each of the dams. And I've 7 included a photo on the right to give you a little bit of 8 perspective on what we're going to talk about. We're going 9 to talk about Flat Rock first, and this is the long stretch 10 of Flat Rock that's on the south side, I guess -- let me try 11 to get my bearings, make sure that's right. But it's the 12 long stretch, and it's about a 500-foot section. And what 13 we've got, you can see the two ground-penetrating radar data 14 at the top. One is the 400 Megahertz, and the bottom one is 15 1,500 Megahertz. Obviously, the frequency of wavelength has 16 a different penetration and tells you a little bit more about 17 the subsurface than the other. And being able to combine 18 those, we -- we were able to come up with these composite 19 maps. 20 The areas of white are indications where we have 21 solid contact with the equipment. Where we have gray, there 22 may be -- there is no bottom reflection, so we didn't get a 23 reflection off the bottom -- the interface between the 24 concrete and the dirt. And then the areas where there's 25 green, there's a possible void or minor void. The yellow 11-13-07 109 1 areas are a possible void, and then the red areas are 2 definitively a void, where there's absolutely no reflection 3 coming back from the ground-penetrating radar unit. Then, 4 once we went in -- and these maps will all be duplicated in 5 terms of the methodology. Once we've identified a certain 6 area where we see that there may have been voids, we went 7 into the slab impact and echo analysis and pounded with the 8 hammer to verify whether there were holes, and whenever we 9 got a signal of a 3, there was definitive non-reflection from 10 the bottom, so there is a void present wherever we see a 11 number 3 in these grids. And these are 9-by-9 grids, about a 12 10-foot square area in terms of -- excuse me, a 100-foot 13 square area in terms of coverage here. 14 So, you see in -- for instance, in this particular 15 example, with the slab impact analysis, we see verification 16 that there is a void here, because we really do have a 17 non-reflective surface beneath the concrete cap. So, as you 18 look across, you see that there are -- certainly, it's not 19 necessarily a regular pattern of voids, but there's certainly 20 a significant area across the surface of the dam where we do 21 not have contact with the earthen foundation beneath the 22 crest here. We move on to the downslope, and the sequence 23 will be the same from the crest to the downslope side on each 24 of the dams. Again, so the picture -- the long side of Flat 25 Rock Dam, this is now the front side of the dam. And we can 11-13-07 110 1 see, again, there are certainly areas where there are 2 definite voids indicated by the 300-foot mark; you see a 3 pretty clear red mark in areas, and then you can also see 4 that in this bottom part, again, we see significant voiding 5 in this area. And, again, confirmed by some of the 6 ground-penetrating radar. 7 To really summarize, in glancing through this, we 8 can see, certainly, that -- that this is, you know, the short 9 section of Flat Rock Dam. There's certainly areas where we 10 see significantly more voiding, according to the ground- 11 penetrating radar. And, again, it's confirmed by the impact 12 analysis. One of the things I do want to qualify is, in 13 summary, in terms of the data, about 12 percent of the 14 concrete areas have voids, but another 18 to 20 percent have 15 possible voids, with approximately 70 percent of the areas 16 having contact between the concrete and the earthen 17 foundation. However, I do need to qualify that there's 18 certain areas of both dams that were inaccessible due to 19 moisture. It was just so slick, you just could not get on 20 the dam to be able to assess in those parts of the dam. 21 Flat Rock, we actually had excellent coverage with 22 very, very few areas that were not accessible to the dam. 23 However, on Ingram Dam, there was quite a bit of moisture, 24 not only on the top, but also on the downstream slope, which 25 made it very difficult to be able to get our equipment in 11-13-07 111 1 there and get up and down the hills. So, even on the short 2 section of Flat Rock Dam, we still see some voided areas. 3 The area over there that's between the 60- and 70-foot mark 4 is actually going to coincide with the crest having a -- a 5 void as well. So, this may actually be something where 6 there's significant washout, not only on the crest, but also 7 on the downstream slope. 8 We switch over to Ingram Dam. Again, this is on 9 the crest on the north side facing the road. We see some 10 voiding right at the -- right at the spillway at the 180 -- 11 160 to 180 mark, again, confirmed by the slab impact 12 analysis. We look at the downstream slope of the north 13 section of the dam, and again, spotted areas where, 14 particularly along the seams, there were certainly areas 15 where there were voids readily identifiable, particularly 16 with the slab impact analysis. You clearly heard the hollow 17 sounds as you pounded the hammer on the -- on the dam. This 18 is now looking at the south side, the short stretch on the 19 other side of Ingram Dam. This is certainly the area where 20 there was quite a bit of problems with access. I'm sure all 21 of you have seen the recreational activities that go on on 22 the dam; it's quite interesting to watch those kids slide 23 down. Makes you wonder what you were doing at that age. 24 But, certainly -- 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Sliding on the dam. 11-13-07 112 1 MR. SCHUSTER: Sliding down the front side of the 2 dam, absolutely. Fabulous to watch. Have to have no brains 3 and a lot of guts. But particularly this section that's 4 about 40 to 50 feet on the south side of the spillway was 5 constantly wet, so we never had an opportunity to test that 6 area at all. And it's -- certainly, in terms of visibility, 7 you can see holes or pieces of rebar sticking out, which also 8 makes sliding down the dam quite dangerous. But -- but, 9 certainly, there are areas of Ingram Dam where we have some 10 suspicion of voids where we just were unable to test with the 11 equipment. And you can see on the downstream side, again, 12 most of that area was very difficult to be able to assess 13 properly. But, again, you can see, certainly, there's areas, 14 particularly the area at the very bottom, end of the 15 downstream slope, the 220-foot section, there was a void at 16 the very bottom, which certainly makes us think that there 17 may be some deeper seepage coming through, because there's 18 not that much void at the very top of the crest of the dam. 19 So, in summary -- this is a spreadsheet of the 20 visual data you just saw in terms of the percentages of 21 contact. So, overall, you see that, you know, Flat Rock Dam 22 does have more voids than Ingram Dam, and significantly, in 23 terms of nearly double the percentage of contact. What's 24 interesting to note is that Flat Rock Dam has had some 25 grouting done in the past, and in looking at how the grouting 11-13-07 113 1 was done, it was done in very regularly spaced intervals. 2 So, obviously, we didn't have any subsurface investigation 3 prior to the -- to the grouting, and grouting was just done 4 in a systematic fashion, so we may have actually, you know, 5 picked up voids between the areas that were grouted 6 previously. So, Flat Rock Dam, even though it's had some 7 repairs, does show more voids than Ingram does. And, again, 8 you can look through there. Rarely does the area of -- areas 9 of concern exceed 15 percent in terms of voids. So, in 10 summary, voids are present in at least 12 percent of the 11 concrete areas that were accessible. We can expect voids in 12 another 20 percent that were tested that are certainly 13 questionable in terms of the bottom reflection from the 14 tests. Approximately 70 percent of the accessible concrete 15 areas do show contact with the subsurface, and in our 16 opinion, tend to be sound. And our recommendation is to go 17 back and fill the voids based on the additional sounding. 18 So, we now have a map of where the concrete -- 19 where the voids may be, and they'd be the target areas in 20 terms of the grouting. But we do recommend the program for 21 the grouting with somebody that's actually going to excavate, 22 have a destructive testing, where actually somebody goes in 23 and looks at the bottom of the previous grouting to see if 24 the previous plugs ever made contact with the bottom of the 25 -- or with the earthen structure underneath the concrete. 11-13-07 114 1 There's my contact information here at the end. But we do 2 want to cover -- I brought Les with me as well to talk a 3 little bit about some of the recommendations, what we would 4 recommend for a future action in terms of addressing these 5 voids. Again, you know, 70 percent of the surfaces are in 6 good contact with the earthen foundation. You know, there's 7 no immediate concern, in my opinion, in terms of the safety 8 of the dam; we didn't see water weeping out. We certainly 9 got a good test, with 12 weeks of heavy flows prior to our 10 tests, so I think that our time testing was very appropriate, 11 because we had some risk ahead of time, but we did find that 12 about 70 percent of the concrete cap was still intact, or has 13 contact. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: You kept saying, I think, 15 that the spillway area was difficult to run your tests on. 16 Wouldn't that be the more likely place for water to be able 17 to get under the shell and wash out and create the cavities? 18 MR. SCHUSTER: Potentially, I think the -- in terms 19 of the risk in terms of water seepage is really anywhere, you 20 know, where there's a seam or there's any water contact 21 whatsoever. In terms of the spillway, I don't think there -- 22 certainly, in terms of there's water flowing across it at all 23 times, and the likelihood of there being some voids, 24 particularly on the downstream side, are probably more 25 significant than in other parts of the dam. But I think that 11-13-07 115 1 the -- the upstream side of the dam is equally at risk in 2 terms of -- because it's all saturated with water. So, water 3 always flows in a preferential path, so once you've given it 4 a particular pathway underneath one concrete slab, it's going 5 to go that direction. So, obviously, the -- the testing the 6 spillways would involve -- we need dry -- we need to have 7 that surface dry in order to look at the contact and be able 8 to get a sounding. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: If we -- if we drained -- 10 drained one or both, you would eventually come back and do 11 that? 12 MR. SCHUSTER: Absolutely. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 14 MR. SCHUSTER: And I would certainly recommend 15 doing that in terms of the repair, because that's certainly a 16 critical part of doing a repair on the dam, is that we have a 17 -- we have a dry spillway, not only to be able to assess it 18 with the same nondestructive evaluation, but also to be able 19 to assess where there may be voids within the spillway. 20 So -- 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Are y'all going to give a 22 ballpark figure to do this? 23 MR. SCHUSTER: Absolutely. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 25 MR. SCHUSTER: Absolutely. We kind of sat down, 11-13-07 116 1 worked through it a little bit. I'll let Les explain that, 2 since he certainly -- 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Before you move on to that, 4 just help me understand. On the back here of your report, in 5 Appendix B, -- 6 MR. SCHUSTER: Yes, sir. 7 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: -- you've got three 8 categories; void, questionable, and sound. 9 MR. SCHUSTER: Yes. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I understand sound. I 11 understand questionable. I'm not sure I understand what 12 you're telling me with "void." 13 MR. SCHUSTER: You don't understand -- which was 14 the last one? 15 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: What do you mean when you 16 say "void"? 17 MR. SCHUSTER: A void. There was absolutely no 18 reflection coming back from any of the testing equipment. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Okay. 20 MR. SCHUSTER: So the -- the three gradations, in 21 terms of no bottom reflection, minor, and questionable, we do 22 get a signal. On the areas that are classified in red on the 23 maps, and we're classifying as a void, we got no return 24 signal at that point, so there's no -- there's no -- air is 25 not a conductor of that wave at all, so it just gets dead -- 11-13-07 117 1 you get no return to the receiver at all. So that's why we 2 interpreted a void when there was no return signal, either 3 from the ground-penetrating radar or from the slab impact 4 analysis or from the impact echo. So, the three methods 5 determine whether there was a void, whether there's no 6 reflection. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Were you able to test the 8 entire southern portion of Ingram Dam? 9 MR. SCHUSTER: Except for the 40 or 50 feet to the 10 south of the spillway, because it was pretty much always wet. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, we're in the process of 12 draining that right now. 13 MR. SCHUSTER: Right. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: We pull the plug on it 15 tomorrow. 16 MR. SCHUSTER: Oh, wow. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that -- we thought we 18 were going to dry the spillway by pulling the upper plate, 19 but we have so much flow, it's kind of stabilized, and 20 there's still about 2 or 3 inches of water. But once we pull 21 the bottom one, I don't know how much of it's going to drain, 22 but the spillway will be dry. 23 MR. SCHUSTER: Perfect. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And, you know, that's going 25 to give you a good opportunity to really get a good look at 11-13-07 118 1 that. And we were there the other day pulling the upper 2 plate; there are some areas over on that side that you can 3 see down in. 4 MR. SCHUSTER: Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's what 5 I'm talking about. There's some visual areas where -- 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: When we pulled -- we pulled 7 that upper plate, there's a small pipe down -- looks like to 8 me like maybe a 3- or 4-inch pipe over close to that, where 9 that plate is, where the first drain -- that upper drain is. 10 MR. SCHUSTER: Right. Right. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: At the bottom. When they 12 pulled the plate out, the water increased tremendously for 13 some unknown reason out of that lower little pipe. And it 14 was -- it was clear -- it was running slightly before the 15 plug was -- the upper drain plate was pulled, but once it was 16 pulled, the flow increased and it got muddy for a short time. 17 MR. SCHUSTER: Interesting. Now, this is over 18 towards the zero to 40-foot -- 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The other side over there, 20 just about where you see the vegetation. 21 MR. SCHUSTER: Okay. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The pipe is down where that 23 little -- 24 MR. SCHUSTER: Right. So this is -- 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- red spot is. 11-13-07 119 1 MR. SCHUSTER: Over here -- right here, right in 2 that area where we suspected some voids and saw some water 3 flow as well, absolutely. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That, to me, looks like a 5 real problem area. 6 MR. SCHUSTER: Absolutely. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The concrete surface over 8 there on the cap on the back side is -- it looks horrible. 9 MR. SCHUSTER: Yeah, we talked about -- the area, 10 actually, you and I talked about, where we think there might 11 be some flow underneath, some significant flow, 'cause it's 12 kind of coming around the edge. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: To me, it is -- it's a 14 concern. 15 MR. SCHUSTER: I agree. There's -- the vegetative 16 growth actually along that edge is from that flow. It's 17 certainly been coming for a while. It's not a new flow. 18 There's all kinds of algae growth along the bottom of that 19 drain, so that -- that leak has been there for some time. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Within a very short time, we 21 should have the water level lowered to where that spillway 22 will be dry. 23 MR. SCHUSTER: Okay, excellent. 24 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Stefan, when T.C.E.Q. was 25 here and inspected Flat Rock Lake Dam, one of the things that 11-13-07 120 1 was noted was on the downstream side of the spillway, there 2 was a pretty good size breach in that surface, and water was 3 cascading into that. Did any of your testing -- any of your 4 testing reveal anything specific about that, or were you 5 unable to do it because the water was flowing? 6 MR. SCHUSTER: No, we had an opportunity to test 7 there, and this is that area here. And you can actually 8 see -- in the photograph, you can see some moisture there at 9 the bottom. But we did not detect any significant voids, as 10 you can see, with the ground-penetrating radar. And looking 11 at it -- well, we got both -- we got the 400 and the 1,500, 12 so there were some areas where we couldn't get the 400 13 Megahertz machine to go in. But even -- even here, we only 14 show voids at the -- at the upper end by the spillway, and 15 then at the very crest, where there may actually be -- part 16 of that flow may actually be coming in under the plate, and 17 then coming back out towards the bottom. But we didn't -- we 18 didn't show any voids at the bottom, but that area certainly 19 is of concern. I mean, obviously, we have a void on that 20 downstream face, so there is certainly water moving 21 underneath there, or potentially could be moving underneath 22 there. We certainly see it coming out, so I guess we can see 23 there's water moving underneath. And, you know, 24 interestingly enough, some of the photos -- Terry Bushnell 25 from U.G.R.A. was very helpful in taking photographs during 11-13-07 121 1 the time it was flooding to help me assess where -- not only 2 dealing with the gauges, but also see visually what was going 3 on with the dams, and it was interesting to note that after 4 high flow, many of the seams show flow coming out of the 5 seems. So, there was water -- the crest was dry and the 6 first 10 feet on the downstream slope ware dry, but then 7 there was water coming out of the seams for the remainder of 8 the downstream slope. And that certainly speaks -- if you 9 look at the crest, we show lots of voids along the crest, so 10 that would certainly allow that opportunity to happen, where 11 we get flow coming in under the crest and then flow to the 12 downstream side. So, in the end, you know, again, probably 13 30 percent of the surfaces have -- have voided areas, or at 14 least have questionable contact. And our recommendation 15 would be to, based on these soundings, put together a grout 16 program to address -- or grouting program to be able to 17 address those voids. And I certainly want Les to talk about 18 that a little bit, to give you an explanation. 19 MR. BOYD: Morning. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Morning. 21 MR. BOYD: The key thing I think we have to look 22 for here is to find a contractor that -- that's familiar with 23 this type of work, with pressure grouting. Because if you 24 get someone in there and they -- they put too much pressure 25 on it, they will literally uplift the slabs and damage the 11-13-07 122 1 structure more than they will repair it. So, it's going to 2 be real critical to put together a set of contract documents 3 to solicit an experienced contractor with pressure grouting, 4 that knows how to bleed the various holes, pump the grout, 5 and not cause damage to the structure. With the -- the 6 potential you have here is, with nearly 30 percent of it 7 undermined, if it continues to get worse, you're going to get 8 to a point where the slabs will not be able to span the 9 distance of the void. They'll collapse, and then you'll 10 start losing the embankment itself. So, what we're 11 recommending is that you -- you initiate a program similar to 12 what Stefan had mentioned that they did at Flat Rock in the 13 past. You can see the old grout holes. I don't know how 14 long ago that was done or who did it, but it's very similar 15 to that nature. You'd asked a question about had we put a 16 pencil to it. Yes, but it's very speculative. You don't 17 have a quantity of anything that you can -- can identify. We 18 can't tell you that the void is 6 inches or 6 foot, so we're 19 going to be pumping essentially blind until the -- you hit 20 refusal and it doesn't want to take any more grout. So, what 21 we've come up with is establish a solicitation program with 22 the contractor to where you essentially set up pay items for 23 him to mobilize to the site. You put him on a crew rate per 24 day, so many dollars per crew day or dollars per man-hour, 25 and you identify the things that you can literally keep track 11-13-07 123 1 of by how many people are there, how many days they work, 2 what type of equipment they have. And then you just have to 3 have a pay item for the materials that he'll utilize, like 4 the cement, and keep track of those. And maybe have a 5 sliding scale where the first 1,000 bags of cement are a 6 certain rate, and if he stays and goes into the next zone, 7 then you get some break, hopefully, on the cost of the 8 materials. The best thing we can put together is probably 9 that you're looking at maybe 7 or 8 days for Ingram, maybe 10 10 days on Flat Rock. To bring a crew in, specialty grout 11 equipment, and work towards getting the holes drilled and the 12 grouts pumped, we put to it a labor rate for couple of guys 13 to drill the holes, a guy to operate the grout pipe, someone 14 to oversee that, and the kind of numbers we're coming up with 15 are in the $60,000 to $100,000 range. 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Is that total? 17 MR. BOYD: Total. We're thinking it's going to 18 take something on the order of 20 days, probably. 19 COMMISSIONER LETZ: 20 days total? 20 MR. BOYD: Yeah, and it will probably be a little 21 more in favor of Flat Rock than Ingram, but, you know, we're 22 kind of just pie in the sky right now, taking a guess. 23 But -- 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the -- I presume it's 25 best to do this when the flows are low. 11-13-07 124 1 MR. BOYD: Yes, it would be best if you could 2 reduce the reservoir level. What will happen to you if you 3 don't, you're going to see the water that's passing through 4 the voids is going to carry the grout you're trying to pump. 5 It will be going somewhere where you really don't want it at 6 the present time. If you'll reduce the level, then the grout 7 that you pump can seek those pathways that the water is 8 presently traveling, and it'll set up and perform -- become a 9 barrier to that flow through there in the path. Now, the 10 thing I want to tell you, though, is this is -- the program 11 that we're talking about is to just reestablish contact 12 between the foundation and the bottom of the concrete caps. 13 It will not do anything for you if you have seepage under the 14 dam. It's not a grouting program to do cutoff type seepage; 15 it's just to restore foundation contact. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Buster, when did Halliburton 17 do that? 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Long time ago. 19 MR. BOYD: Halliburton did it? 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Late '80's. 21 MS. HARDIN: 1987. 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: '87? 23 MR. BOYD: So you got about 20 years at Flat Rock 24 out of the last grouting program. And one of the things we 25 talked about -- 11-13-07 125 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Has it ever been done at 2 Ingram? 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yes, it was done at the same 4 time in Ingram as it was done at Flat Rock. 5 MR. SCHUSTER: I didn't see any grout holes on 6 Ingram at all. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I was -- 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It was done. 9 MR. SCHUSTER: It was done? 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I remember seeing them do it. 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Same time. 13 MR. SCHUSTER: They did a clean job. 14 MR. BOYD: Yeah. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Well, out there, we -- we do 16 everything right. It used to be Number 4, but now it's 17 Number 1. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Joint -- you know, joint 19 knowledge now. 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 21 MR. BOYD: Well, do you know if the people that did 22 it for Halliburton are still around? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I don't have a clue. I 24 know Rusty Hierholzer; that's about as far as I can go in 25 this thing here. 11-13-07 126 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He was not on the grouting 2 crew. 3 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I was not on the grouting 4 crew. 5 MR. ODOM: Is grout the only acceptable means? 6 There's foam now that you can use to do this. 7 MR. BOYD: You could go with probably a foam, and 8 what I suspect may happen is we may see the grout travel 9 beyond what we really want to see, and we may have to go to 10 some chemical additives to make it take a little quicker set 11 so that it doesn't travel so far. Probably the -- you know, 12 grout is good in that it's stronger than foam, so it will 13 actually come back and lend support, you know, from the 14 foundation to the bottom of the slab that's not presently 15 there, or wouldn't be there with a really low strength type 16 material. 17 MR. SCHUSTER: I think with the foam, too, even 18 from my own experience, it's hard to control the expansion of 19 the foam, and so there's that risk of it actually creating 20 additional pressure, whereas it's controllable with the 21 grout. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It scares me to death to 23 overfill -- or to start raising the cap. Man, you got 24 problems. 25 MR. BOYD: I mean, it's a very critical piece of 11-13-07 127 1 work. 2 MR. SCHUSTER: That's why we're talking about it 3 really does need to be a qualified vendor, not just somebody 4 who can grout. It's somebody who may have some experience 5 in -- 6 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Do you have a list of those 7 qualified vendors? 8 MR. BOYD: No, sir, we don't. We've dealt with 9 some generally on the anchoring. We've been -- my primary 10 focus in the last ten years has been anchoring dams and the 11 grouting that goes along with those anchors, and it's a very 12 specialized group that does that type of work. It's really 13 key to the equipment you pick and the operator that you put 14 on that piece of equipment, so that he has bypass features 15 where we can -- if he sees pressures coming up, he's got a 16 way to bypass that pressure instead of putting it under the 17 structure. And he's got the control, and he's got a pattern 18 of bleed holes that are drilled into the structure for relief 19 so that you -- you know, that you're not just going to lift 20 it. I mean, it only takes a few pounds of pressure to lift a 21 slab, so you have to be very careful. And they have to be 22 careful about the manner in which they do it, whether they 23 start low and go -- push it up high, and don't push it more 24 than 5 or 10 feet, and all of that will have to be worked 25 into this program. 11-13-07 128 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I remember when we did it in 2 '78 or whenever it was, the -- no. 3 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: '87. 4 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: '87, I'm sorry. It was 5 very, very limited on the number of people to do that type of 6 work, and that's how we ended up with Slumberjet, I think. 7 It may be still that way. 8 MR. BOYD: It's still that way. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. And I bet we end up 10 with people like Slumberjet. 11 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Either Slumberjet or 12 Halliburton, somebody that has that expertise. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Halliburton, yeah. 14 MR. BOYD: It's not an expertise you're going to 15 find in your normal general contractors. 16 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: These dams are very 17 important. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, they are. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, indeed. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And the maintenance and the 21 repair of those are very important. 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, how do we find those 23 people to do that? 24 MR. BOYD: We put out a public notification, and we 25 can contact people that we've dealt with in the past and see 11-13-07 129 1 what kind of recommendations they make. Like, the guy I knew 2 that was the best grouter, he's retired, so -- so now we have 3 to, you know, start working within that network. But 4 especially advertisement for that particular type of contract 5 will draw -- I bet it probably won't draw a whole handful, 6 but it will draw some. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, but there has to be 8 somebody out there. 9 MR. BOYD: There are. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: We're not the only people on 11 earth with that problem. 12 MR. BOYD: No. No, there's a lot of people. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: And then your report then 14 becomes the basis upon which they estimate costs to do this; 15 is that correct? 16 MR. SCHUSTER: That would be a start, absolutely. 17 MR. BOYD: Yes. 18 MR. SCHUSTER: But, again, that materials aspect is 19 unknown. That's really the difficult part. We don't know 20 whether the hole's 6 inches or 6 feet. 21 MR. BOYD: Do you remember how long they were here 22 in '87 to do the two dams? Two weeks? 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, something like that. 24 It -- they weren't here long. 25 MR. BOYD: About the same thing we're thinking it's 11-13-07 130 1 going to take this time. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Seems like we ought to look at 3 this as a next August-September project, or our lowest flow, 4 if we don't get a hurricane, anyway. That's the best time. 5 Maybe late July. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I don't know that Flat Rock 7 has an upper level drain or not, but Ingram in normal flow, 8 you can pull that upper plate and you can dry the spillway 9 without lowering the level of the lake more than about 3 or 10 4 feet. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Bruce, I don't think we do. 12 I think we have a lower drain or out -- outlet, and there was 13 a mechanical device still in place that used to move that or 14 take it out, but that's broken. 15 MR. BOYD: There's a stem on the gate on the crest 16 that went down and operated what looks like would have been a 17 slide gate to that pipe that come out the downstream side. 18 It does not look operable right now. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That's what I'm told; it's 20 not operable. 21 MR. BOYD: If you start far enough ahead and the 22 contractor's good, they can dewater. That means if there's 23 one of them that you can't pull down, he can set up some 24 siphons or some pumps or something. 25 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: He can set up a big siphon on 11-13-07 131 1 it and lower the level. 2 MR. BOYD: Right, and get it down to where it's 3 workable. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But Ingram's very easy to do 5 that. In fact, I think Billy Buttry's the one that put 6 that -- he actually cut the cap and put the second drain in 7 on the upper level so they could drain it down and dry the 8 spillway. 9 MR. BOYD: In the reports, too, the other way that 10 you could address this is you can just go in literally and 11 destruct the top portion of the cap, and then fix things in a 12 standard method with concrete; you know, clean up -- clean up 13 the void, fill it with concrete, and replace the cap. But 14 that's very extensive work. Very -- only thing it does -- 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I like the idea, but it's too 16 expensive. 17 MR. BOYD: Yeah. 18 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Also kind of risky if you have 19 a hurricane right in the middle of your cap being off. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Wash the whole thing out. 21 MR. BOYD: There's a lot of exposure. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank y'all. 24 MR. SCHUSTER: Thank you. 25 MR. BOYD: Thank you. 11-13-07 132 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Gives us something to chew 2 on. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Within the next few days, 4 that spillway should be dried up on Ingram. 5 MR. SCHUSTER: Okay. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: If we're successful tomorrow 7 morning getting the plug out. I think we will be. Don't you 8 think, Len? 9 MR. ODOM: If we get the cable and we don't -- 10 shouldn't have any problems. 11 MR. BOYD: How long are you holding it down? 12 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Till February. 13 MR. BOYD: We'll make a pointed effort to get back. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Before the spawn starts. 15 MR. SCHUSTER: Right. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's right. You'll 17 provide us some information about who we might contact? 18 MR. SCHUSTER: Absolutely. Absolutely, we'll stay 19 in touch with you on that. I've also got C.D.'s of basically 20 all of the data and the presentation that I've given, so I'll 21 let you have a copy of everything as well. 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Give it to Road and Bridge; 23 they can put it in the file somewhere. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I think that's a good idea. 25 MR. SCHUSTER: Right. Thank you. 11-13-07 133 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Thank you. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Thank you, sir. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thanks, Les. Good to see 4 you. 5 MR. BOYD: Thank you. Appreciate your time. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Does that do it? 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Anything else on that 8 particular item, gentlemen? 9 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, I don't think so. 10 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. I guess we're down to the 11 payment of the bills, aren't we? 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Guess so. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: Let me inquire again if we've got 14 any matters for executive session. 15 (No response.) 16 JUDGE TINLEY: I'll take that as a no. We'll move 17 on to Section 4 of the agenda. Payment of the bills. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Buster, are you going to pick 19 on the one I'm going to pick on? 20 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: No, I just wanted to make a 21 comment. I personally think we need to pay our bills. 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Second. I assume that was 23 a motion? 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion and second to pay the bills. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Yeah. 11-13-07 134 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Question or discussion? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But I can't wait to see what 3 you got. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I cannot believe the one 5 thing that you pick on every time, which I feel like you're 6 justified, but just don't know how to fix it, and that is the 7 transcripts from district court this month, $8,300 to one 8 particular court reporter. How in the world do we fix that? 9 Is that an item for another agenda? 10 JUDGE TINLEY: This Court cannot fix that. The 11 Legislature had an item when they were in session recently to 12 fix that, and the Legislature, to my knowledge, did not pass 13 that item. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Chose not to do it. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: I can only assume that the -- that 16 the court reporters' lobby was stronger than the county 17 commissioners' lobby, and as a consequence, that didn't get 18 fixed. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: I guess I need to pass out 20 some Kleenex, then, huh? Wipe their tears over paying this 21 bill. 22 JUDGE TINLEY: That's it. Other comments? 23 Questions? Let me inquire about Page 25. $850 for 24 telephones. 25 MS. HARGIS: That was the long distance bills that 11-13-07 135 1 finally came in. Windstream had trouble getting us our 2 bills, and we finally got them in, and it was kind of a 3 nightmare, but that's four months worth of long distance. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: How did it get charged to H.R.? 5 MS. HARGIS: I think because they're old bills; 6 that's where we had some money left. We're moving money 7 around. 8 JUDGE TINLEY: Oh, okay. 9 MS. HARGIS: All your -- most of your utility bills 10 are still coming in for September. And those were very old, 11 and they actually faxed them to us, and the stack was, like, 12 this high. It was huge, so we just had to find money. So, 13 some of these are not necessarily in the accounts. You have 14 to look at your supplementals. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: The only other comment I have is on 16 Page 68, Indigent Health Care, I was concerned when we had an 17 $84,000 lick at us, and I was told that apparently there had 18 been a bunch of bills held over at the -- in the office of 19 our partial employee, and they just all came in at once, and 20 that's why we had 84,000, I believe is the number in round 21 figures. And -- 22 MS. HARGIS: There's also two people on there that 23 have very large hospital bills. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm, yeah. 25 MS. HARGIS: They're major medical type hospital 11-13-07 136 1 bills, so there's $20,000 for them. 2 JUDGE TINLEY: Yeah. If this continues at this 3 rate, we're going to be out of luck before the end of the 4 budget year, unfortunately. 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I can't think of her name. 6 Alice? Alison? 7 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Do you want me to -- 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tell her to stay. I've got a 9 comment to make during the comment period she needs to hear. 10 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Don't leave. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Don't leave yet. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or comments? 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Judge, I would just like to 14 ask one simple question about the Indigent Health care. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: All right. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: When these -- it's just 17 something I'm going through with one of my doctors right now, 18 and it just makes me wonder about all kinds of things, and 19 that's the coding. I'm assuming that these doctors and 20 hospitals and the -- and pharmacists and all these folks that 21 we pay code their bills, even for Indigent Health care, as if 22 they would for you and I. Do we -- does the employee over at 23 the hospital, do they -- do we watch this coding issue? 24 MS. HARGIS: Yes. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I found one on my personal 11-13-07 137 1 bills that was a major amount of money, and I'm not paying 2 the damn thing, I can tell you that, because it -- I checked 3 it out, and it is not coded properly. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: You didn't receive the services? Is 5 that what you're saying? 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely did not. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: The honest answer to that, 8 Commissioner, is I don't know. I do know the diagnosis 9 coding makes no difference. 10 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The principal thing that our 12 employee at the hospital looks at is the eligibility of -- of 13 the person receiving the service as being qualified under the 14 indigent health care program. As to whether or not that 15 employee then looks at each bill to determine or in some 16 manner ascertain that the service performed maybe fits the 17 diagnosis, or verifies with the -- with the patient that 18 they, in fact, received that service, I seriously doubt that 19 they verify that. I'm not sure, number one, that they have 20 the qualification in the first instance, and in the second 21 instance, I would imagine that some of these patient 22 recipients are -- are not that easy to get ahold of. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: That's an interesting problem, 24 though, you pointed out. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: It is. 11-13-07 138 1 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's a high percentage of 2 mistakes, from personal experience, in -- 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: And we just pay them and go 4 on. Never -- it's never -- 5 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No one checks -- no one 6 probably has the ability to check them. The only person that 7 knows if they got the service was the person that received 8 it, and the reliability of a lot of those indigent health 9 care -- even trying to find them to ask them if they received 10 it, how do you do that? 11 JUDGE TINLEY: The second part of that is, if you 12 ask that person, they may not know what procedures they got. 13 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Exactly, yeah. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Nor do they care. It's not 15 costing them anything. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Bingo. 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, that's probably the 18 big deal there. The one I went through was, part of the 19 criteria to charge me at -- on a certain code was I had to 20 spend more than 60 minutes with this doctor, and I spent less 21 than five. You know, and it talked about -- talked about all 22 kinds of intensive this and intensive that. I simply walked 23 in, told them I didn't need their services, bye, and out the 24 door I went. And I got charged for this really major 25 60-minute intensive -- all this stuff. And I just flat ain't 11-13-07 139 1 going to pay it, boys, I'm telling you -- I'm here to tell 2 you. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: You didn't become the proverbial 4 60-minute man, then? 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely not. 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: I wish the County did have 7 something, 'cause where we really, I think, have problems is 8 inmates that are not indigent health care. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Right, exactly. 10 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We have to pay the full bill, 11 and I don't have anybody to advise, other than just coding 12 the bills. 13 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See, there's no telling what 14 we're missing there. 15 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Or none at all. And this 16 year, I can promise you it's going to be horrendous. We've 17 had over probably $30,000, $40,000 in bills just since the 18 budget started. It's going to really be a serious year on 19 inmate medical. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Do you have any -- 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Good news? 23 JUDGE TINLEY: -- sage suggestions, Ms. Hargis? 24 MS. HARGIS: Well, the program that we have, 25 between the -- you know, as far as the coding is concerned, 11-13-07 140 1 really cuts it back. And I know that we've gotten a lot of 2 complaints, even from the doctors. But I've noticed that the 3 girls in my office are very cognizant; if it doesn't look 4 right, they call and they don't pay it. So we are trying to 5 check as much as we can. They've entered them so many times, 6 they know when they're right or wrong, and so they call. And 7 we had a pharmacy that said -- in fact, it was CVS, and said, 8 oh, we had a contract; we owed them more money. And we said, 9 "oh, no, we don't." And also, the indigent health software 10 provider is an expert in that field, and so if we have 11 problems, they negotiate with those people as well. And we 12 didn't owe them any more money. And, so, if we'd have just 13 taken the face value, but we didn't do that. So, we 14 investigate everything that seems out of the norm, even the 15 hospital bills on those two people, because they were so 16 large. We did go back and research those. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. 18 MS. HARGIS: So the small stuff may get through, 19 but the really big stuff stands out, and we check it out. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do we -- do we or can we 21 negotiate with the hospital directly on the rates we pay for 22 Indigent Health care? 23 MS. HARGIS: No, I don't know that. Question. I 24 know that we -- that they have been reduced by the 25 Legislature, the amount that they're going to pay, and 11-13-07 141 1 they're not happy with that already, because it's already 2 coded in our system. And they began to call in and say we 3 should get -- I can't remember what the reduction is now, but 4 it's considerable. 5 JUDGE TINLEY: There's an allowable amount just 6 like there is for Medicare and some of those. 7 MS. HARGIS: Yeah, and they -- that's all they get. 8 COMMISSIONER LETZ: All right. 9 MS. HARGIS: So that does help a lot with Rusty's 10 situation, because he doesn't pay 100 percent, and -- but 11 there's no way, like he said, for us not to put them on 12 there. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 14 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Some of my issues are -- and 15 without mentioning names, just something that I have a 16 problem dealing with, and I wish the Court could help in one 17 way or another, is I had two guys end up in our holding tank 18 and detox tank overnight a long time ago, okay? Both charged 19 with Class C misdemeanors, public intoxication. Two of them 20 beat up a third one that was in there. The third one's 21 released from jail, you know, the next morning. He does have 22 to be transported to the hospital. He is treated for some -- 23 some head injuries. But it was a fight, okay? That's been 24 probably four months ago, five months ago. He is not in 25 jail. He has seen I don't know how many specialists in San 11-13-07 142 1 Antonio. He is now going to another specialist to see about 2 nerve problems in a hand. I don't know if those are related 3 to the fight that occurred in jail, or if we're paying for 4 this person's total medical care forever and a day. And 5 we're still paying all those bills. Now, I'm not, you know, 6 medically inclined, or insurance -- I don't have any way, 7 other than coding those bills and saying pay it. And I don't 8 think the County should be doing that. 9 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other comments? Questions? All 10 in favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 11 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 12 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 13 (No response.) 14 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Budget amendments. 15 We've got a summary provided to us again, so that we do not 16 have to go through the 23 separate budget amendments for this 17 past budget year that are carry-overs, accruals, and one for 18 this particular budget year which would recognize some new 19 income, which is always welcome. 20 MS. HARGIS: Yeah. 21 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Move approval of the budget 22 amendments. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Second. 24 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded to approve 25 the budget amendments per summary. Question or discussion? 11-13-07 143 1 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I just wanted to make it 2 clear what I'm seeing here. As an example, Number 5 -- 3 Request Number 5. 4 MS. HARGIS: Mm-hmm. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: In your -- in the red there, 6 several thousand, a couple of -- $2,000 or $3,000. Now, what 7 I'm thinking I'm seeing here is that our budget is one month 8 old, and we're already -- 9 MS. HARGIS: No, these are old. These are last 10 year. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: These are all coming from 12 last year? 13 MS. HARGIS: All these 25 are last year. 14 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, when will we get a total 15 tally of how much these district courts burned the taxpayers? 16 MS. HARGIS: Well, we're cutting it off as of this 17 one, so it'll go on the new year. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: So, like, next month, 19 possibly, you would have a number showing the total amount of 20 money that they went over budget? 21 MS. HARGIS: Well -- 22 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Those are your bosses, now, 23 so be careful what you say. 24 MS. HARGIS: Yeah. We should be ready to close out 25 our books and look at the audit, see what our beginning fund 11-13-07 144 1 balance is and things of that nature, yes. 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Okay. I just think it's 3 important for the taxpayers of Kerr County to see how these 4 departments and these offices go over, and how much -- this 5 is a major -- in my opinion, a major amount of money, just 6 this one month. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Once they close out the books, 8 Commissioner, they'll be able to show the total expenditures 9 made during that fiscal year for that department. You can 10 then compare it to the budget as adopted and give you a 11 pretty quick reference as to, -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 13 JUDGE TINLEY: -- you know, what they put back in 14 or what they -- additional they had to drag off. 15 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Golly, this is wild. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other questions or comments? 17 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I certainly couldn't run my 18 home like that, I can tell you that much. Not very long. 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Not very long. 20 JUDGE TINLEY: Other questions? Comments? All in 21 favor of the motion, signify by raising your right hand. 22 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 23 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 24 (No response.) 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion carries. Do we have any late 11-13-07 145 1 bills? 2 MS. HARGIS: No. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: We have some monthly reports. Road 4 and Bridge, September '07; Constable, Precinct 4; Justice of 5 the Peace, Precinct 1; Environmental Health; Justice of the 6 Peace, Precinct 3; Constable, Precinct 1; Constable, Precinct 7 2; County Clerk, both general and trust fund; and Justice of 8 the Peace, Precinct 2. Do I hear a motion that these reports 9 be approved as presented? 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: So moved. 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Second. 12 JUDGE TINLEY: Motion made and seconded for 13 approval of the designated reports as presented. Question or 14 discussion? All in favor of the motion, signify by raising 15 your right hand. 16 (The motion carried by unanimous vote.) 17 JUDGE TINLEY: All opposed, same sign. 18 (No response.) 19 JUDGE TINLEY: The motion does carry. Do we have 20 any reports from any of the Commissioners in connection with 21 their liaison or other assignments? 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yes. And I'm -- the reason I 23 asked our reporters to stay for this part is, I was requested 24 by the Airport Board -- in a meeting yesterday, there was a 25 request from the entire board to urge the two entities on the 11-13-07 146 1 airport, being the City and the County, to quit messing 2 around, start meeting, and work on a long-term governance 3 agreement for the airport. Commissioner Williams and I were 4 present, and told them the Court appointed two members to 5 start that discussion in August, and that we were waiting for 6 our counterparts at the other entity, being the City, to 7 appoint somebody, and they have yet to do so. And they 8 want -- this is from the Airport Board. Their request is to 9 get letters to the Editor, people screaming, do whatever it 10 takes to get both entities to sit down and start meeting on a 11 long-term governance agreement with the airport, because the 12 current way of operation out there with three board members 13 is not good. They don't like it. They're unhappy, and they 14 want it fixed. And I know that was voiced to the young man 15 that was there from the Kerrville Daily Times. I'm not sure 16 of his name, but I just wanted to make sure that the -- those 17 that were covering the Commissioner Court were also aware of 18 the feeling of the Airport Board. And this -- and to me, as 19 a Commissioner, I think it is ridiculous that the City has 20 just sat on their hands for three months when there's a 21 situation out there that needs to be addressed. And there -- 22 there are arguments that we need to wait for the consultant. 23 You know, I don't mind waiting to make a final determination 24 till we get the consultant's report on economic development, 25 which I'm not sure how that necessarily relates to 11-13-07 147 1 governance, but clearly, we can sit down and start 2 negotiating and talking as to where we want to go with the 3 long-term governance of this airport. So, that was my 4 comment that I wanted to make. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I concur. No need to add 6 anything. 7 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other reports from -- 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yeah. I got a couple 9 quickies here. 10 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: We were advised by O.R.C.A. 12 that we have been given a planning grant in the amount of 13 $30,000, which we'll be using in conjunction with the Center 14 Point/East Kerr wastewater project. Couple quickies real 15 quick here. Unemployment for Kerr County right now is about 16 3.9 percent. TexDOT was in the last AACOG meeting and made a 17 rather extensive report on structurally deficient bridges. 18 This is a topic of high public interest, given the failure of 19 the bridge in Minneapolis over the Mississippi River. So, 20 TexDOT has gone in, taken a look at all the bridges in the 21 state, and there are thousands of them, as you might imagine. 22 And the ones they've identified as structurally deficient 23 bridges in Kerr County are on-system bridges. They are their 24 bridges, not the off-system ones. There are no structurally 25 deficient off-system bridges. All the on-system ones that 11-13-07 148 1 they identified were -- two of them on State Highway 39, the 2 first and second Smith Crossings, F.M. 1340 at Hope Crossing, 3 F.M. 394 at Guadalupe River, and two more on State Highway 4 39, Panther Creek at the South Fork of the Guadalupe River, 5 and another on F.M. 1340 at the Lone Star Crossing. They're 6 aware of all these, and they're indicating that whatever 7 remedial action needs to be taken is now flowing in the 8 conduit. For your edification and interest, if you have 9 nothing else to read, I'll give you a copy of the AACOG 10 budget for -- 11 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Thanks, Bill. 12 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You're welcome. For fiscal 13 year '07-'08, and it is projected at $37,218,000. It'll 14 probably go down, based on the fact that Bexar County has 15 asked to take back the Ryan White program, which is the 16 H.I.V. program that was administered by Bexar County. They 17 at one point said we can't handle it any more. They came to 18 AACOG, asked AACOG to take it over. We did take it over, 19 restructured the whole program and got it functioning 20 properly, and now the County Judge has said, "I think we'll 21 take it back," so we're going to give it back to them. So, 22 anyhow, this budget will probably be reduced within the next, 23 oh, three, four, five months to accommodate the removal of 24 the Ryan White program. That's it, Judge. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Great report. 11-13-07 149 1 JUDGE TINLEY: Any other reports from 2 Commissioners? 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Well, I'll report in response 4 to Commissioner Williams on the bridges that have been 5 identified as structurally unsound. The two Smith Crossings 6 on Highway 39, and Hope Crossing have already been let. 7 They're working out some contract issues right now with the 8 successful bidder. They should start construction no later 9 than the 1st of December. Phase 2 of the project involves 10 Lynxhaven, Panther Creek, and Mayhugh, which is right by 11 Stonehenge. We are having our, hopefully, last meeting on 12 Phase 2 of the committee on Thursday morning, and hopefully 13 that will go well, and they can go ahead and get the bids out 14 on that so they can start. One of the Phase 3 will be 15 Shoemaker and Hunt. Those are other -- that wasn't 16 identified in your report, but they will be redone too, 17 upgraded. That will be another year away at least before 18 those two -- 19 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Bruce, as an example, like 20 the bridge there at Stonehenge, or Honey Creek, whatever you 21 want to call it, will that -- will that bridge be raised? 22 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: It will be raised slightly 23 and create enough open area underneath it to where it will 24 drain better. 25 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 11-13-07 150 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The volume of water that it 2 will take will be increased quite a bit. That's the worst 3 crossing, really, on the whole North Fork, because it stays 4 flooded when the others are already dry. 5 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. 6 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Because it's so low. 7 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But it's the cutest. 8 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: But it will be raised, and 9 that is one of their most difficult ones to work with, 10 because the roadway -- the approach from the Hunt side is 11 below the level of the ground -- 12 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah, sure is. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- on the downstream side. 14 And, so, they're going to have to raise that up some, but not 15 too much. They've just got to match -- they've got to match 16 up with the flow rate coming with -- you know, based on the 17 drainage from upstream. 18 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Mm-hmm. 19 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that's the way the 20 engineering is going to work on it. But that has been one of 21 their biggest challenges. 22 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: Which bridge is that, Bruce? 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's the one right before 24 you get to Stonehenge. 25 JUDGE TINLEY: Mayhugh. 11-13-07 151 1 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Down in the dip before you 2 get to Honey Creek. It's a bad deal. They've looked at 3 other options to straighten it out, but that requires 4 right-of-way acquisition and all that, and they don't have 5 time for that. 6 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: I've been dealing with the 7 Lemos Street a little bit; they're fixing to redo that thing. 8 And I think, personally, the debate is, from my point of 9 view, being raised out in Hunt, being flooded in, and if you 10 just wait a couple hours, it's going to go down, or at least 11 overnight it'll go down and you can get out. But that's kind 12 of the debate now. Do we need to build one for a 100-year 13 flood, or do we need to build one for 5-year? That kind of 14 thing. 15 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And that's what these -- 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: But I'll lose the argument 17 on that. 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: The ones in the Hunt area 19 were supposed to be built on a 5-year frequency, but they've 20 got an exemption down to 2-year frequency, so that would -- 21 made it possible to lower the bridges down and not make them 22 so high that they didn't -- they looked out of place. 23 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Yeah. Yeah. 24 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And where the roadway floods, 25 you can't get to the point -- what point is there having a 11-13-07 152 1 big old tall bridge if the roadway's flooded? 2 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Absolutely. 3 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And, so, anyhow, that's where 4 we are on that project. And I also talked to Coward the 5 other day; they're starting the surveying on the Camp 6 Arrowhead crossing, Flaming Arrow Crossing, and also have 7 started surveying on the Hoot Owl Hollow bridge. So, they're 8 -- they're moving along. Out there by Weltners. 9 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah, out there. 10 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Where Welt used to live. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Judge, one other quickie -- 12 I'm sorry. 13 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: That's okay, I'm about done. 14 That's -- the only other thing that I have is that we have 15 had some problems in terminology in Environmental Health 16 Department on letters that went out to these people that have 17 not turned in their final drawings so that the homeowners can 18 get their permit to operate. Had an instance where a lawyer 19 had been retained by a homeowner in the west, trying to get 20 to the bottom of it and figure out what to do to make this 21 final drawing come in of what was built on the property. And 22 we had been sending out letters saying you must turn in your 23 as-built drawings. Well, the terminology's wrong. You have 24 to base it on what's in our rules, because that terminology 25 is not in the state rules, nor in our rules. So, it has to 11-13-07 153 1 be the design has not been approved because the drawing of 2 what was built has not been submitted. 3 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Oh, yeah. 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: So, basically, that's what 5 the -- it's just a change in verbiage. But that's going to 6 make it legal for us, based on our rules. So, we worked 7 through that last week -- or I did with Environmental Health 8 and this lawyer that was working for the homeowners, and sat 9 down with Tish and Ray and -- and the lawyer. The four of us 10 got around the table, and the lawyer figured out what we were 11 doing wrong, to not be able to put pressure -- legal pressure 12 on these people to turn in those final -- you know, final -- 13 not as-builts, but built according to what was permitted to 14 be built. And without that, they're not going to get 15 approval. But that's all. 16 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: See how we give credit to 17 lawyers occasionally? 18 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: In this case, it was a big 19 help. Anyway, I just wanted to let y'all know that. That's 20 the other thing, and that's enough out of me. Y'all -- 21 JUDGE TINLEY: You had something else? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: At the request of 23 Dr. Troxel, I'm going to make an appearance before the 24 K.I.S.D. Board of Trustees tonight to talk about Cornerstone. 25 Cornerstone has asked for a recommendation from their board, 11-13-07 154 1 and it's on their agenda, and Dr. Troxel asked me to be 2 there. 3 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They're the outfit that wants 4 to lease the Juvenile Detention Facility? 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes. 6 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything additional to report on 7 that? 8 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No. I have to call them 9 this afternoon. I'm going to find out where the letter of 10 intent is. Haven't seen it back, unless you got it. 11 JUDGE TINLEY: My understanding was that they were 12 supposed to hear something from T.Y.C. -- my recollection was 13 November 9. Am I correct on that date? 14 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: That date rings a bell. 15 JUDGE TINLEY: So maybe you'll get an update from 16 them. 17 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I will, or I'll call this 18 afternoon. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay, good. 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Judge, one last item I have 21 related to our Subdivision Rules. I mentioned it to 22 Commissioner Williams, but I visited with the legal staff at 23 Water Development Board, and the way I did the draft revision 24 is acceptable to them, and they're willing to sign off that 25 our rules are acceptable. Which that clears the way for our 11-13-07 155 1 grants to go before their board, probably in December. But 2 if it gets -- for some reason, it gets pushed back, it will 3 be at the latest January, but they're still aiming, I 4 believe, for their board approval in their December meeting. 5 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: To facilitate that, if we 6 get adoption on the 26th, and need that to be hand-delivered 7 to them so that they have them so we can make the December 8 meeting -- 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: He's got a copy of them 10 already. 11 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Well, he needs to see an 12 adopted copy. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 14 JUDGE TINLEY: The -- the constitutional amendment 15 for the bond for Texas Water Development Board did pass. 16 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Yes, sir. 17 JUDGE TINLEY: Do we know when those bonds are 18 going to be sold? 19 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: No, but I'll try to find 20 out. 21 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Be interesting to know when 22 the pipeline's going to open up. 23 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Yeah. So you can be at the 24 doorstep? 25 JUDGE TINLEY: We are already at the doorstep. 11-13-07 156 1 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: With a bigger hat in our 2 hand. 3 JUDGE TINLEY: Anything else, gentlemen? 4 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: What are we supposed to do 5 with these -- 6 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We need to recess. 7 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- request for proposals or 8 qualifications? 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: We'll get them from Cheryl 10 after lunch, and we'll recess on that one item, Judge, and 11 then we can come back. And Bruce and I can look at them 12 before we go to lunch, probably. I don't think it will take 13 that long. 14 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: And then come back -- 15 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Tomorrow, we can make a 16 recommendation. 17 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: -- on the recessed item for 18 today. 19 JUDGE TINLEY: Mm-hmm. 20 COMMISSIONER OEHLER: Okay. 21 COMMISSIONER BALDWIN: Come back when? 22 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tomorrow. 23 JUDGE TINLEY: Tomorrow we're here at 11:30 anyway. 24 Point of information. We're scheduled to have a meeting 25 tomorrow at 11:30. We may be slightly delayed starting that, 11-13-07 157 1 depending upon the time frame with regard to the services for 2 Brad Alford. But if we don't start at 11:30, it'll be 3 shortly thereafter, and when we get everybody gathered up, 4 we'll -- we'll start then. Anything from any elected 5 officials? 6 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: There just is one deal 7 tonight, if you didn't see it in the paper. It might be 8 interesting to some of y'all, on the forum out at Schreiner 9 College on the effects of immigration and illegal immigration 10 on Texas. And one thing, thanks to my chief and one of my 11 captains, they put together some figures. Just this year, 12 January to now -- to November, on what it's cost this county 13 in housing people with I.N.S. holds and that, and that's over 14 -- it's going to exceed, not counting medical, $75,000, is 15 what it cost us in housing illegal immigrants. 16 JUDGE TINLEY: What kind of reimbursement do we get 17 for that? 18 SHERIFF HIERHOLZER: We get the SCAAP funding, 19 which is that alien assistance. It's not just on -- on 20 illegal aliens; it's any type of -- of non-citizen that we 21 house. And it's tied to criminal charges, of course, but 22 what was it this year? I think the County saw about 13,000 a 23 year on that. But there -- there's going to be a lot of 24 issues. They've got a forum, somebody out of -- I think it's 25 Lamar Smith's office, and there's a panel and different 11-13-07 158 1 subjects tonight, and it can be interesting, what the effects 2 are, whether it's education, health care, any of that kind of 3 stuff. And it affects our county. 4 JUDGE TINLEY: Okay. Any other reports? We'll be 5 in recess till 11:30 tomorrow morning. 6 (Commissioners Court recessed at 11:41 a.m.) 7 - - - - - - - - - - 8 9 10 STATE OF TEXAS | 11 COUNTY OF KERR | 12 The above and foregoing is a true and complete 13 transcription of my stenotype notes taken in my capacity as 14 County Clerk of the Commissioners Court of Kerr County, 15 Texas, at the time and place heretofore set forth. 16 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 20th day of November, 17 2007. 18 19 JANNETT PIEPER, Kerr County Clerk 20 BY: _________________________________ Kathy Banik, Deputy County Clerk 21 Certified Shorthand Reporter 22 23 24 25 11-13-07